My opinion on this thread gravitates around a few themes:
   1. Linux is not a product. "RedHat Linux" is a product.
   2. Telling anybody about what a business should do doesn't achieve
      anything. Talk to that business or start one of your own.
   3. Users want to learn, but they don't have time.
   4. Users who don't want to learn (despite 3.) should wonder why
      they feel disposable...
   5. "The end justifies the means." (Nicolo Machiavelli) - If somebody
      doesn't care what's inside as long as it solves the problem I have
      now, it doesn't care if it's Linux inside or Windows inside.
   6. Everybody want something for nothing, including IT managers to
      get invited to Micro$oft conferences and MCSE drones that have
      got a job because of an empty buzzword.
   7. People are terribly shortsighted:
   http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert20020146246118.gif
      They will always trade freedom for convenience.

On Mon, Jan 28, 2002 at 12:25:18PM -0600, Rodd Ahrenstorff wrote:
> On Monday 28 January 2002 2:02 pm, you wrote:
> 
> > they just want to press a button and let the computer figure out what
> > the problem is, what the solution is and implement the solution.
> 
> Self diagnostics...now that would be cool!

Nope, you misunderstood. This is a user that has a problem, a task to
accomplish.

> > GUI/CL is irrelevant. I, as a _USER_ cannot spend time wandering the
> > menu system in search for the bold command, or move the mouse ever so
> > slowly over the tool buttons so I can read the tooltip and hope I get
> > the desired one...
> 
> I just don't understand your argument here Florin.  The bad thing about CL is 
> a complete lack of "tactile" feel.  People unfamiliar with CL look at that 
> blinking cursor like a deer caught in the headlights.  Nothing on the CL is 
> visable unless you know how to access it.  It's simply not intuitive.  I find 
> the majority of tools I need from an application are usually staring me in 
> the face on one of several top-layer toolbars.  

Any monkey can fetch a banana from a tree... A human should be able to
ask a waiter...

Which brings me to another usefull analogy: Did it ever happen to you to
go to a restaurant and want to tweak one of the dishes? "Could I have
the shrimp grilled instead of fried? And a little less dressing on the
salad..." Now imagine how the menu would look like if it were to offer
you the option to point to _any_ combination.

> > > Where I'm going is that the OSes that gain desktop market share will be
> > > the ones that let people learn as little as possible, get their work
> > > done, and exchange files with other users.
> >
> > Where I'm going at is that dumbing everything down is not a long-term
> > solution.
> 
> In my opinion it is the inevitable solution.  Successful products don't 
> increase complexity for users.  

See 1. and 2.

> > Dumb users will be happy to get Windows on their computers. They don't
> > care about freedom (maybe they will care when it will be too late). They
> > don't care about improving Linux. They just care about _their_ problem.
> > Let them be...
> 
> I do care about freedom.  That is why I try to convince people to use Linux.  

You are trying to solve a problem they don't have... No wonder they
don't follow you...

> > PS: I apologize for my vent, but I'm pissed about all that talk that
> > fills web logs and mailing lists... If half of it would be spent doing
> > something (even if not related to the problem) everybody would be much
> > better off (including the DU).
> 
> Do you think this talk is fruitless? 

Unfortunately yes. Neither of us will start a Linux business anytime soon...

>                                      As a Linux user and advocate I simply 
> wanted other members opinions on this subject.  You may go about your 
> business solving problems 24/7, but I for one like to chat about things once 
> in awhile.   I appreciate your comments Florin...now take a deep breath and 
> say "Calgon take me away...." :)
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       Sorry but I don't know what that means :)

florin

-- 

"If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is."

41A9 2BDE 8E11 F1C5 87A6  03EE 34B3 E075 3B90 DFE4
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