From marc at e-skinner.net Thu Feb 1 09:54:45 2007 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 09:54:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax? In-Reply-To: References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> Message-ID: <45C20D45.2090009@e-skinner.net> Nate Carlson wrote: > On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > >> Interesting. When I was shopping there was a "Instant $350 rebate on >> lattitude notebooks priced above 1499" (which is valid til tomorrow I >> believe). And I added identical with-windows and without-windows >> notebooks to my cart (since the rebate is only taken off when added to >> the cart), and the with-windows notebook had a $259 rebate applied in >> the cart and the without-windows one had a $350 rebate applied in the >> cart. So the without-windows one came out cheaper only because the full >> $350 rebate was applied. Without the rebate, they would have been >> exactly the same price. >> > > They had also discounted the wireless card, the Cingular wireless card, > and various other parts only on the Windows one.. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | > | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > i just got a thinkpad t60 from cdw - with winxp - and i was just about to attempt to get my ms tax money refunded. but then found out - after about 3 weeks of trying - that my embedded evdo card could only be activated via a verizon winxp appliation. so, i had to actually re-install from the recovery discs they sent and install winxp to activate my card - which of course made accept the ms license etc. so, winxp was on my laptop for about 15 minutes, now its FC6 and my evdo card works awesome! From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 12:12:32 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 12:12:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and the CoM? My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the device. And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. -- Donovan Niesen From swhite at ci.bloomington.mn.us Thu Feb 1 12:12:51 2007 From: swhite at ci.bloomington.mn.us (Steven White) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 12:12:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless network card for SUSE 10.1 Message-ID: <45C1D943.A690.0025.0@ci.bloomington.mn.us> Greetings from a lurker. I have a desktop computer (built myself totally from parts on sale after rebate) on the second floor of our house, running SUSE 10.1, and I would like to get it to connect to the Qwest Actiontec DSL modem which has wireless capability, so I don't have to run a cable down the stairs if I want to use the internet. I know that the wireless function works because my spouse uses her office laptop with wireless. I know that the WIRED connection to the Linux desktop works because I actually have run a cable down the stairs to the modem to test. I don't have enough money in my personal toy budget to keep buying wireless PCI network cards and trying them until I find one that works. I did that once (an off-brand wireless network card on sale after rebate) and I could not make it work. I have looked at the hardware compatibility list on the opensuse.org web site, and all the network cards mentioned (there are not many) seem to have some "gotcha," like needing a driver from somewhere, needing ndiswrapper, etc. I would like to find something that just works. So to the question, does anyone know of a specific brand and model of PCI wireless network card that I could put in my computer, that would work "out of the box"? Thank you. Steven White City of Bloomington 1800 W Old Shakopee Rd Bloomington MN 55431-3096 USA 952-563-4882 (voice) 952-563-4672 (fax) steven.white at ci.bloomington.mn.us From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 13:11:05 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 13:11:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > the CoM? > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > device. > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery should last between 17 and 33 hours. -- jonathon jongsma From cncole at earthlink.net Thu Feb 1 14:09:58 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:09:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a carbattery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Donovan Niesen > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 12:13 PM > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > the CoM? > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > device. > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > You should be able to extend the battery life by using power cutback routines in both monitor and computer thingy. Still, it's never a good idea to risk that the car won't start. Better to use a second battery that can go dead and not affect car starting at all. This is a standard RV setup: use two fat power diodes from the alternator (common anodes) and separately to each battery. Leave the car wiring the same otherwise. Whichever battery most needs charging will get charged and both will be OK. The auxilliary battery can go dead and the car will still start. I found that it was cheaper to use guaranteed KMart batteries and not the expensive deep-discharge batteries because they will die in about the same time and the guarantee will usually replace for free or cheap. A regular car battery needs to "see" starting current now and then to keep its pores open, and that would need a bit more to automate swapping the battery roles. Chuck From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Thu Feb 1 14:27:11 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:27:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a carbattery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Nevermind .... I'm used to working in standard AC voltages, forgot about cars being 12 volts. Sorry! Larry > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > linux.org] On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:11 PM > To: Donovan Niesen > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a > carbattery? > > On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > the CoM? > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > device. > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in > use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). > It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last > by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for > sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 > Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery > should last between 17 and 33 hours. > -- > jonathon jongsma > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com Thu Feb 1 14:26:00 2007 From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 14:26:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a carbattery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sound more like .3A to me. I normally figure 100 watts per amp (actually it's higher than that). Which would mean 170 to 330 hours, which would make it at least possible for 7 days. Larry Pint > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > linux.org] On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:11 PM > To: Donovan Niesen > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a > carbattery? > > On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > the CoM? > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > device. > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in > use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). > It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last > by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for > sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 > Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery > should last between 17 and 33 hours. > -- > jonathon jongsma > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 17:01:08 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 17:01:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702011501l2fac0c9el7de443358d0943a7@mail.gmail.com> Great info. Whether the car starts is not necessarily an issue (as funny as that sounds). The draw of the LCD is what is making the most difference so we may need to settle on a smaller, lower power LCD. On 2/1/07, Larry R. Pint wrote: > Nevermind .... I'm used to working in standard AC voltages, forgot about > cars being 12 volts. > > Sorry! > > Larry > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn- > > linux.org] On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > > Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2007 1:11 PM > > To: Donovan Niesen > > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on > a > > carbattery? > > > > On 2/1/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. > The > > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire > week > > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > > the CoM? > > > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > > device. > > > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > > > The computer will be consuming 35W even when the vehicle is not in > > use? That's about 3A of current (assuming a 12V supply). > > It should be fairly easy to determine how long your battery will last > > by looking at your battery rating. I think (though I don't know for > > sure, I may be wrong) most standard car batteries are between 50-100 > > Amp-hours when fully charged. So at approximately 3A, the battery > > should last between 17 and 33 hours. > > -- > > jonathon jongsma > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Donovan Niesen From timo at bolverk.net Thu Feb 1 18:34:47 2007 From: timo at bolverk.net (Tim Oudin) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 18:34:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011501l2fac0c9el7de443358d0943a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1461621.351170376487800.JavaMail.root@zimbra> ----- Donovan Niesen wrote: > Great info. Whether the car starts is not necessarily an issue (as > funny as that sounds). The draw of the LCD is what is making the > most > difference so we may need to settle on a smaller, lower power LCD. Or follow suit with the car audio crowd and install more batteries... -- timo From thecubic at thecubic.net Thu Feb 1 19:43:46 2007 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (David Carlson) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 19:43:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <1461621.351170376487800.JavaMail.root@zimbra> References: <1461621.351170376487800.JavaMail.root@zimbra> Message-ID: <18366.163.231.6.87.1170380626.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net> > Or follow suit with the car audio crowd and install more batteries... If you were to do that, to keep 35W at 12V alive for 7 days, you would need: 7 days / ( (50 A * 1 hr * 12V) / (35 W) ) = 10 batteries (google the LHS) You're likely only to find 50Ah batteries. Optima yellow-top deep-cycle ($200) is rated at 55Ah - YJMV (Your Jouleage May Vary). Each battery is at least 60 pounds also. What's the application? -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Dave Carlson From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Feb 1 20:48:21 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 20:48:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> 35W is a huge amount to leave running in a car. The blinking LED on a car alarm consume maybe maybe as little as 5 milliamps considering the duty cycle. When building a car computer, there are ways to get the OS and applications to load fast. Perhaps you don't need to leave the power on? If you really need the thing to run unattended, perhaps for remote access of some kind, you might need to look at non-standard CPUs and use only an unlit b/w LCD. Jeremy On Thursday 01 February 2007 12:12 pm, Donovan Niesen wrote: > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > the CoM? > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > device. > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. From dniesen at gmail.com Thu Feb 1 22:45:51 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2007 22:45:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/1/07, Jeremy wrote: > > 35W is a huge amount to leave running in a car. The blinking LED on a car > alarm consume maybe maybe as little as 5 milliamps considering the duty > cycle. > > When building a car computer, there are ways to get the OS and applications to > load fast. Perhaps you don't need to leave the power on? > > If you really need the thing to run unattended, perhaps for remote access of > some kind, you might need to look at non-standard CPUs and use only an unlit > b/w LCD. > > Jeremy > > On Thursday 01 February 2007 12:12 pm, Donovan Niesen wrote: > > I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very > > low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The > > vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week > > so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a > > fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and > > the CoM? > > > > My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be > > it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the > > device. > > > > And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. The display would be showing current bidding price, some specs, anything else that we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be running 24/7 and hopefully for the long battery life. -- Donovan Niesen From s.earl.martin at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 00:27:34 2007 From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 00:27:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless network card for SUSE 10.1 In-Reply-To: <45C1D943.A690.0025.0@ci.bloomington.mn.us> References: <45C1D943.A690.0025.0@ci.bloomington.mn.us> Message-ID: On 2/1/07, Steven White wrote: > ... > So to the question, does anyone know of a specific brand and model of > PCI wireless network card that I could put in my computer, that would > work "out of the box"? It's not PCI, but I have a Hawking Technology HWU54G USB wireless card that works well with my desktop machine running fedora core 6. In fedora, it required that I download a gzipped tar of firmware files that had to be extracted to /lib/firmware (see http://zd1211.ath.cx), but I seem to recall it "just working" in ubuntu, so your experience may vary. It worked fine in either case, so I'd imagine your distro wouldn't have too much trouble. At any rate, this particular card was around $50 at Comp USA last fall, and I haven't had any trouble with it so far. sm From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 08:32:07 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:32:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. The display > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, anything else that > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be running 24/7 and > hopefully for the long battery life. Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. Dan From david.alitz at charter.net Fri Feb 2 08:52:44 2007 From: david.alitz at charter.net (Dave Alitz) Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2007 08:52:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702011012r728d1e6bt99afb792627ecc4a@mail.gmail.com> <200702012048.21814.tclug@lizakowski.com> <47f4d5e70702012045k1e144a49n2c03bd3e8d1572f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C3503C.7070601@charter.net> What's the state of electronic paper tech these days? It only requires power to change the display. Sounds like it would be ideal for this sort of low power application. Just a thought. Dave Alitz Donovan Niesen wrote: > On 2/1/07, Jeremy wrote: > >> 35W is a huge amount to leave running in a car. The blinking LED on a car >> alarm consume maybe maybe as little as 5 milliamps considering the duty >> cycle. >> >> When building a car computer, there are ways to get the OS and applications to >> load fast. Perhaps you don't need to leave the power on? >> >> If you really need the thing to run unattended, perhaps for remote access of >> some kind, you might need to look at non-standard CPUs and use only an unlit >> b/w LCD. >> >> Jeremy >> >> On Thursday 01 February 2007 12:12 pm, Donovan Niesen wrote: >> >>> I'm considering a project that would involve connecting a very >>> low-power Computer on Module and an LCD display inside a vehicle. The >>> vehicle will not be driven or possibly even started for an entire week >>> so what I'm wondering is if anyone knows how long I might have on a >>> fairly standard car battery if I'm using ~35 Watts from the LCD and >>> the CoM? >>> >>> My goal is a full 7 days so if I need to use a lower power LCD so be >>> it. Otherwise I will need to find a different way to power the >>> device. >>> >>> And yes, the CoM will be running Linux. >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. The display > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, anything else that > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be running 24/7 and > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Feb 2 09:06:14 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 09:06:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > The display > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > anything else that > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > running 24/7 and > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > Dan Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken into unless 24/7 security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps with a big screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not only get info but also bid. Chuck From ryan.langseth at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 17:52:07 2007 From: ryan.langseth at gmail.com (Ryan Langseth) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 17:52:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: References: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: How about using a solar panel to suppliment the battery? Many wireless ISPs use solar with low power embedded boards (Soerkris, wrap, PC engines) to charge batteries which, in turn, power their access ports Ryan Langseth On 2/2/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > > The display > > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > > anything else that > > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > > running 24/7 and > > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > > > Dan > > Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken into unless 24/7 > security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps with a big > screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not only get info > but also bid. > > Chuck > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Feb 2 18:12:49 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 18:12:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hard to get enough ampere-hours per 24hr day from a reasonable solar panel. > -----Original Message----- > From: Ryan Langseth [mailto:ryan.langseth at gmail.com] > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 5:52 PM > > How about using a solar panel to suppliment the battery? Many > wireless ISPs use solar with low power embedded boards (Soerkris, > wrap, PC engines) to charge batteries which, in turn, power their > access ports > > > Ryan Langseth > > On 2/2/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > > > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > > > The display > > > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > > > anything else that > > > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > > > running 24/7 and > > > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > > > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > > > > > Dan > > > > Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken > into unless 24/7 > > security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps > with a big > > screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not > only get info > > but also bid. > > > > Chuck From dniesen at gmail.com Fri Feb 2 21:41:22 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 21:41:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: CoM and LCD display... expected life on a car battery? In-Reply-To: References: <45C34B67.6040902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702021941r53c70f3bs4a6a865d2f643ad@mail.gmail.com> On 2/2/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dan Armbrust > > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:32 AM > > > > > Well the big idea is for cars that are being auctioned. > > The display > > > would be showing current bidding price, some specs, > > anything else that > > > we might come up with. Hence the need for it to be > > running 24/7 and > > > hopefully for the long battery life. > > > > Starting to make a couple of long extension cords sound cheap. > > > > Dan > > Also sounds like a sure-fire way to get the cars broken into unless 24/7 > security is high. Better to have a hardened kiosk, perhaps with a big > screen behind bullet-proof glass, where visitors can not only get info > but also bid. > > Chuck > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > The theft factor is definitely the nail in the coffin on this project. We are looking more along the lines of some type of kiosk or better guarded display. Can spend a little more on one large monitor to display info and can run it off a much more standard computer. Thanks for all of the great insights, everyone! -- Donovan Niesen From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 3 08:56:06 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 08:56:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702031456.l13Eu6L02902@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Home Based Data Entry/Typist Home Based Data Entry/Typist Earn $300-$900 per week from home doing data entry and typing. Complete Training, easy to start! http://ourdollars.com Seller Email address: blrbindu at yahoo dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Sat Feb 3 09:56:07 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 09:56:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware Message-ID: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Good Day Everyone: Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps inflate prices on legacy computers. Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will pick up. Thanks, David Alanis "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 13:21:19 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 13:21:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance Message-ID: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the resolution I want? - Joey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070203/78265e9e/attachment.htm From rclark at lakesplus.com Sat Feb 3 16:46:17 2007 From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 16:46:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies? In-Reply-To: <1169591545.23902.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain> <1169591545.23902.15.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <1170542777.26777.0.camel@localhost.localdomain> Replaced the mouse ... it did not fix the problem either ... grrrr ... VERY annoying to say the least. R On Tue, 2007-01-23 at 16:32 -0600, Randy Clarksean wrote: > Tried your suggestion ... did not work ... mouse would still not "click" > on anything. > > Randy > > On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 11:12 -0600, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean wrote: > > > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a > > > bit annoying. > > > > > > System: FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks > > > with yum. > > > > > > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after > > > a fashion. I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving > > > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it > > > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of > > > the windows open on the screen. It is like the mouse button feature is > > > gone. > > > > > > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X, > > > relog in and then everything is fine. > > > > > > Thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks in advance. > > > > > > Randy > > > > I think I've seen something very similar to this on my system, but I'm > > not sure if it's the same issue. It doesn't happen very often, but > > it's very annoying when it does. I notice it most often on the web > > browser. When I click on links, it acts as if it has clicked them > > (i.e. it gets one of those dashed outlines that shows that it has the > > focus), but clicking the link doesn't actually load the specified URL. > > Other click-related stuff doesn't work correctly either. It seems > > like something has blocked a specific mouse-click event or signal from > > firing. The workaround I usually use is to switch to a text console > > (e.g. ctrl+alt+F1) and then back to X (ctrl+alt+F7), and then the > > mouse will work normally again. You might try that next time it > > happens to you... Unfortunately I haven't investigated it enough to > > find a proper solution. > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From tmarble at info9.net Sat Feb 3 18:37:43 2007 From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble) Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2007 18:37:43 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> References: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45C52AD7.8030109@info9.net> Joey Rockhold wrote: > I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM > switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to > those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). > Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my > full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the > resolution I want? On my feisty (pre-release) system one can change change the default resolution in the Gnome menu: System | Control Center, then click on "Screen Resolution" and select the default. The "old school" (and perhaps simpler) way to do this is by editing /etc/X11/xorg.conf (save the current version first!). You will find a section like this: Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "Intel Corporation Mobile Integrated Graphics Controller" Monitor "Generic Monitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1680x1050" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection For each instance of the line "Modes" insure that you have only the resolution(s) that you want. HTH, --Tom From brockn at gmail.com Sat Feb 3 20:42:20 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 20:42:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware In-Reply-To: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> References: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <741dcbb80702031842h7f72a149l5dc06eb018988472@mail.gmail.com> The U's UCS is not a bad deal if you can get there on a Wednesday when everything is 20% off: http://www1.umn.edu/ucs/UsedEquip-PC.php Brock http://free-sailboat-listings.com On 2/3/07, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > > Good Day Everyone: > > Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't > remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including > craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps > inflate prices on legacy computers. > > Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into > the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some > type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. > > I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please > contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will > pick up. > > Thanks, > > David Alanis > > "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre > Minds" - Einstein > > "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070203/99381bec/attachment.htm From jack at jacku.com Sat Feb 3 22:55:18 2007 From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider) Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2007 22:55:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware In-Reply-To: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> References: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <200702032255.18266.jack@jacku.com> On Saturday 03 February 2007 9:56 am, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > Good Day Everyone: > > Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't > remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including > craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps > inflate prices on legacy computers. > > Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into > the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some > type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. > > I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please > contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will > pick up. > > Thanks, > > David Alanis > > "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre > Minds" - Einstein > > "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" My standard suggestion for this type of thing is The Box Shop. I've purchased stuff from the St Paul store in the past with good luck. They're on Fairview just south of University across from Arby's and behind the Senior apartments. I know someone who got an old Dell PowerEdge server there for $45. Happy hunting. -- Jack Ungerleider jack at jacku.com http://www.jacku.com From john.meier at gmail.com Sun Feb 4 01:13:41 2007 From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 01:13:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware In-Reply-To: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> References: <2007020315560701882fbbe6@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <65293fcc0702032313t1c56df96j1ef18b661f2b608f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/3/07, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > > Good Day Everyone: > > Sorry I did not use the TCLUG Classifieds but am out of addy's and can't > remember my passwd's. I have been searching all classifieds including > craigslist for reasonable priced computers and I must say, how much peeps > inflate prices on legacy computers. > > Am in need of one maybe two reasonably priced pc's so I can dive back into > the Linux scene. I would imagine minimum a PIII 500 or greater, maybe some > type of P4 1.2 - 1.8 Ghz. Check this local auction place: http://corporate.idleassetauctions.com/ For instance - here's 2 compaq p3 1ghz currently at $31.00 -> http://corporate.idleassetauctions.com/cgi-bin/auction/auction.pl?category=desktop&item=1170966533 I've purchase wayyy too much from this place - much to my wife's dimay.... I do have cash but not much, so if you have something laying around please > contact me at your earliest convinience. Am located in Bloomington and will > pick up. > > Thanks, > > David Alanis > > "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre > Minds" - Einstein > > "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070204/8a257166/attachment-0001.htm From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 4 13:41:23 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 13:41:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702041941.l14JfNx28968@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Hp LaserJet 5000 I've got a Hp Laserjet 5000, it has 8mb ram, no jetdirect cards. Something is up with the pinch rollers on the tray 2. So paper has to be fed in manually. I am looking to get rid of this. Free to a good home. Pick up is in Inver Grove Heights. Thanks! Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 4 23:01:24 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 4 Feb 2007 23:01:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702050501.l1551Of05884@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Houses Apartments and Roomates Type of Ad: For Free Subject: free cat I've got a little kitty who needs an affectionate home. We just had a child and so we can't give her the attention she deserves. She doesn't have her claws removed, and she has not been spayed. Nevertheless, she is an absolute charmer. I will drive a reasonable distance to aid with pick up. Seller Email address: benjamin dot gramlich at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From chewie at wookimus.net Mon Feb 5 10:08:01 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2007 10:08:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Cat adoption resources (was Re: New TCLUG Classified Ad) In-Reply-To: <200702050501.l1551Of05884@crusader.real-time.com> References: <200702050501.l1551Of05884@crusader.real-time.com> Message-ID: <20070205160713.GA19762@skuld.wookimus.net> In addition to using our classifieds website (??!!), try: http://www.caring-for-cats.org/ http://www.felinerescue.org/ Or do a search for "cat shelter" at maps.google.com for your area. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070205/ca5c9809/attachment.pgp From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Feb 6 11:17:03 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2007 11:17:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702061717.l16HH3c03963@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 19 in. Samsung SyncMaster LCD 931B 19 in. Samsung SyncMaster 931B LCD - 1 pixel out. Located 3-4 inches below the top and dead center. 3 months old. $150. Burnsville Seller Email address: erick at metrocomputerrepair dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From mikebelden at comcast.net Thu Feb 1 12:50:59 2007 From: mikebelden at comcast.net (mikebelden at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2007 18:50:59 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Wireless network card for SUSE 10.1 Message-ID: <020120071850.10531.45C2369300024E7F000029232216527966020A0B040A0D0A050703@comcast.net> I don't really know of any that just works out of the box for any distribution, but that's just my experience and I've only been using Linux for a couple years. I'm wrong more than I'm right. I have a Dynex wireless PCI card from Best Buy, which was only like $35. It's an Atheros card, getting it to work on my FC5 box was a little sketchy but I was willing to make that trade-off. The documentation for the madwifi drivers is pretty good so I'm sure you could make it work. Not sure if that's worth anything or not, just my $.02. -------------- Original message -------------- From: Steven White > Greetings from a lurker. > > I have a desktop computer (built myself totally from parts on sale > after rebate) on the second floor of our house, running SUSE 10.1, and I > would like to get it to connect to the Qwest Actiontec DSL modem which > has wireless capability, so I don't have to run a cable down the stairs > if I want to use the internet. I know that the wireless function works > because my spouse uses her office laptop with wireless. I know that the > WIRED connection to the Linux desktop works because I actually have run > a cable down the stairs to the modem to test. > > I don't have enough money in my personal toy budget to keep buying > wireless PCI network cards and trying them until I find one that works. > I did that once (an off-brand wireless network card on sale after > rebate) and I could not make it work. I have looked at the hardware > compatibility list on the opensuse.org web site, and all the network > cards mentioned (there are not many) seem to have some "gotcha," like > needing a driver from somewhere, needing ndiswrapper, etc. I would like > to find something that just works. > > So to the question, does anyone know of a specific brand and model of > PCI wireless network card that I could put in my computer, that would > work "out of the box"? > > Thank you. > > > Steven White > City of Bloomington > 1800 W Old Shakopee Rd > Bloomington MN 55431-3096 > USA > 952-563-4882 (voice) > 952-563-4672 (fax) > steven.white at ci.bloomington.mn.us > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070201/1efcc60d/attachment.htm From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Feb 7 12:23:17 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 12:23:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702071823.l17INHc32568@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: eMachines T2245 Hey All, I picked this eMachines T2245 from a friend and tried to get it to start. the machine starts (I think), The Powersupply starts and so does the fan on the cpu, but I dont get a video signal. It has no Hdd and or Memory. Its free to a good home whom might be willing to invest some time and little money into it. Otherwise its going out with my Thursday's garbage next week. LOL! Thanks! CPU: Intel? Celeron? Processor 2.20GHz (w/128KB L2 cache & 400MHz FSB) Operating System: Genuine Microsoft? Windows? XP Home Edition Chipset: Intel? 845GL chipset Optical Drive: 40 ? 12x40x Max. CD-RW Drive; 16x Max. DVD Drive; 3.5" 1.44MB FDD Video: Intel? Extreme Graphics 3D (integrated) Sound: AC '97 Audio Network: 10/100Mbps built-in Ethernet Modem: 56K ITU v.92-ready Fax/Modem Peripherals: Standard Multimedia Keyboard, 2-Button Wheel Mouse, Standard Speakers Ports/Other: 6 USB 2.0 ports (2 on front), 1 Serial, 1 Parallel, 2 PS/2, Microphone-In & Head Phone jack on front, Audio-In & Out, 3 PCI slots (2 available) Dimensions: 7.25"W x 14.125"H x 16"D Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From dniesen at gmail.com Wed Feb 7 13:11:37 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:11:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad In-Reply-To: <200702071823.l17INHc32568@crusader.real-time.com> References: <200702071823.l17INHc32568@crusader.real-time.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702071111n7d9b748y4a48a87a42215ed7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/7/07, TCLUG Classifieds wrote: > New TCLUG Classified Ad > > Category: Computer > > Type of Ad: For Free > > Subject: eMachines T2245 > > Hey All, > > I picked this eMachines T2245 from a friend and tried to get it to start. the machine starts (I think), The Powersupply starts and so does the fan on the cpu, but I dont get a video signal. > > It has no Hdd and or Memory. Its free to a good home whom might be willing to invest some time and little money into it. Otherwise its going out with my Thursday's garbage next week. LOL! > > Thanks! > CPU: Intel(r) Celeron(r) Processor 2.20GHz (w/128KB L2 cache & 400MHz FSB) > Operating System: Genuine Microsoft(r) Windows(r) XP Home Edition > Chipset: Intel(r) 845GL chipset > Optical Drive: 40 ? 12x40x Max. CD-RW Drive; 16x Max. DVD Drive; 3.5" 1.44MB FDD > Video: Intel(r) Extreme Graphics 3D (integrated) > Sound: AC '97 Audio > Network: 10/100Mbps built-in Ethernet > Modem: 56K ITU v.92-ready Fax/Modem > Peripherals: Standard Multimedia Keyboard, 2-Button Wheel Mouse, Standard Speakers > Ports/Other: 6 USB 2.0 ports (2 on front), 1 Serial, 1 Parallel, 2 PS/2, Microphone-In & Head Phone jack on front, Audio-In & Out, 3 PCI slots (2 available) > Dimensions: 7.25"W x 14.125"H x 16"D > > Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com > > http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > I come across a lot of these eMachines that have cheap motherboards and power supplies. It's best to replace both. Most of the time, the rest of the components survive. Usually you can find a decent replacement motherboard/power supply for under $100 that will bring it back to life. Feel free to email me if you want any advice on refurbishing these beasts. -- Donovan Niesen From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Wed Feb 7 22:34:59 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:34:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Looking 4 Hardware Message-ID: <2007020804345945cd849005@mail.smumn.edu> Thanks everyone for your replies: Am in the process to pick up a few boxes this weekend (off from work-I will be in touch) from some of the members who replied on here . I currently installed backtrack based off slackware/Slax. I did a few searches for update managers, since I don't think it comes with YUM or the aptget "like" programs I found a few but no solid suggestions onllline. I know my "budy" Mr. Tom Johnson is a Slackware freak-so hopefully he will respond. Anyways, I would like to seek a few suggestions from the list? Thank you, David A. "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" From webmaster at mn-linux.org Fri Feb 9 14:41:03 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 14:41:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702092041.l19Kf3B31431@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Subject: Want to trade wireless usb nic for wired I'm looking to trade a wireless USB nic (802.11G) - I believe it's netgear - for a wired 10/100 usb nic. This is for my TIVO, so a NIC on this list would be best: http://tinyurl.com/y5lgn2 Any takers? Dan Seller Email address: drue at therub dot org http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From molivier1.geo at yahoo.com Fri Feb 9 20:42:25 2007 From: molivier1.geo at yahoo.com (Marc Olivier) Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 18:42:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Qwest Actiontec DSL Modem GT701-WG and Linux AntiVirus Message-ID: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hello. I have the above model Modem. I have dual boot machine using SuSE Linux 7.x and Windows 2000 service pack 3. The modem works fine in Windows, but when I try to get it working under Linux, I can't get system to make it work. I had similar problem w/external Zip drive, and had to get a special script for that. I suspect I need to do same thing for the modem. Would any of you happen to know what will work? Also, assuming I do get it working, what is good antivirus for Linux? (I am running AMIBIOS w/Duron processor @ 1100MHz) Marc molivier1 at excite.com ____________________________________________________________________________________ Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index From teeahr1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 10:16:10 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:16:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Qwest Actiontec DSL Modem GT701-WG and Linux AntiVirus In-Reply-To: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f729feb0702100816h15540fel60250f7714dc0527@mail.gmail.com> Could you be a little more specific? I have the selfsame modem over here (just the basic rental unit from Qwest, right?) and have never had a problem getting it recognized "out of the box" (problems with the unit itself being a piece of shit notwithstanding, I've had to replace it twice in a year now...) Dammit, I just realized I missed the beer meeting last night! Booo! -p. On 2/9/07, Marc Olivier wrote: > > Hello. > I have the above model Modem. I have dual boot machine > using SuSE Linux 7.x and Windows 2000 service pack 3. > The modem works fine in Windows, but when I try to get > it working under Linux, I can't get system to make it > work. I had similar problem w/external Zip drive, and > had to get a special script for that. I suspect I need > to do same thing for the modem. Would any of you > happen to know what will work? Also, assuming I do get > it working, what is good antivirus for Linux? > > (I am running AMIBIOS w/Duron processor @ 1100MHz) > > Marc > molivier1 at excite.com > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Want to start your own business? > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/1331fc82/attachment.htm From teeahr1 at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 10:29:12 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian Message-ID: <1f729feb0702100829o6adb2893g53e82ff680638f27@mail.gmail.com> As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire <2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the "binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... best! -p. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/67e8bb7f/attachment.htm From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 10:33:29 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:33:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance In-Reply-To: <45C52AD7.8030109@info9.net> References: <101e49ea0702031121i7d47fa3brbc85a5b79f6b8cf9@mail.gmail.com> <45C52AD7.8030109@info9.net> Message-ID: <101e49ea0702100833t19748224n51e846752eb9e302@mail.gmail.com> The first suggestion, clicking on the default checkbox in screen resolution, did not help. I haven't tried the second method yet. - Joey On 2/3/07, Tom Marble wrote: > > Joey Rockhold wrote: > > I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM > > switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to > > those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). > > Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my > > full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the > > resolution I want? > > On my feisty (pre-release) system one can change change the default > resolution > in the Gnome menu: System | Control Center, then click on "Screen > Resolution" > and select the default. > > The "old school" (and perhaps simpler) way to do this is by editing > /etc/X11/xorg.conf (save the current version first!). > > You will find a section like this: > > Section "Screen" > Identifier "Default Screen" > Device "Intel Corporation Mobile Integrated Graphics > Controller" > Monitor "Generic Monitor" > DefaultDepth 24 > SubSection "Display" > Depth 24 > Modes "1680x1050" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" > "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" > EndSubSection > EndSection > > For each instance of the line "Modes" insure that you have only the > resolution(s) that you want. > > HTH, > > --Tom > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/2c8bf1c0/attachment.htm From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Sat Feb 10 11:10:19 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:10:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian Message-ID: <20070210171019879a34ad6a@mail.smumn.edu> I think you may be asking what the defferences are from one's perspective? I personally have used both and didn't notice any difference in usability perhaps that Ubuntu is a straight forward install? You raised a good question and I found an interesting read at least I think so, so am sure you have read it before, its on the Ubuntu site: Differences between Debian and Ubuntu: http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/relationship On Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:29 AM, Pete Daniels wrote: Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 From: Pete Daniels To: TCLUG Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire <2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the "binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... best! -p. "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" On Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:29 AM, Pete Daniels wrote: > >Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 >From: Pete Daniels >To: TCLUG >Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian > >As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire ><2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. >However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the >"binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and >simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to >strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch >when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help >me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this >is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... > >best! >-p. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/1173d428/attachment-0001.htm From cncole at earthlink.net Sat Feb 10 11:32:53 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 11:32:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0702100833t19748224n51e846752eb9e302@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My guess is that you have some Plug-and-Play dialog trying to "help" you and it defaults to 640x480 when it cannot query a monitor. Look for ways to override smart options as are implied by a "default" statement and mode options. Chuck -----Original Message----- From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Joey Rockhold Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 10:33 AM To: Tom Marble Cc: TCLUG Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Ubuntu video annoyance The first suggestion, clicking on the default checkbox in screen resolution, did not help. I haven't tried the second method yet. - Joey On 2/3/07, Tom Marble wrote: Joey Rockhold wrote: > I am running 2 Ubuntu machines. I have them both hooked to a KVM > switch. When I boot either of them up, and I do not have the KVM set to > those particular machines, they boot up in 640x480 mode (or 800x600). > Yet if the KVM switch is on those computers while they boot, I get my > full 1280x1024 resolution. Can anyone direct me to how to lock down the > resolution I want? On my feisty (pre-release) system one can change change the default resolution in the Gnome menu: System | Control Center, then click on "Screen Resolution" and select the default. The "old school" (and perhaps simpler) way to do this is by editing /etc/X11/xorg.conf (save the current version first!). You will find a section like this: Section "Screen" Identifier "Default Screen" Device "Intel Corporation Mobile Integrated Graphics Controller" Monitor "Generic Monitor" DefaultDepth 24 SubSection "Display" Depth 24 Modes "1680x1050" "1400x1050" "1280x1024" "1024x768" "800x600" "640x480" EndSubSection EndSection For each instance of the line "Modes" insure that you have only the resolution(s) that you want. HTH, --Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/c68bab4c/attachment.htm From leif.t.johnson at gmail.com Sat Feb 10 12:43:51 2007 From: leif.t.johnson at gmail.com (Leif Johnson) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 12:43:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Qwest Actiontec DSL Modem GT701-WG and Linux AntiVirus In-Reply-To: <1f729feb0702100816h15540fel60250f7714dc0527@mail.gmail.com> References: <567177.52498.qm@web55601.mail.re4.yahoo.com> <1f729feb0702100816h15540fel60250f7714dc0527@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Are you using it as a USB modem? I too used to have one of these modems, and it worked with linux fine for me over ethernet. I never tried it as a USB modem. I did find it generally deficient, and have various networking problems (outbound ssh sucked, wireless sucked) that all went away when I replaced it with a Zoom DSL modem/wireless router. leif On 2/10/07, Pete Daniels wrote: > > Could you be a little more specific? I have the selfsame modem over here > (just the basic rental unit from Qwest, right?) and have never had a problem > getting it recognized "out of the box" (problems with the unit itself being > a piece of shit notwithstanding, I've had to replace it twice in a year > now...) > > Dammit, I just realized I missed the beer meeting last night! Booo! > > -p. > > On 2/9/07, Marc Olivier < molivier1.geo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Hello. > > I have the above model Modem. I have dual boot machine > > using SuSE Linux 7.x and Windows 2000 service pack 3. > > The modem works fine in Windows, but when I try to get > > it working under Linux, I can't get system to make it > > work. I had similar problem w/external Zip drive, and > > had to get a special script for that. I suspect I need > > to do same thing for the modem. Would any of you > > happen to know what will work? Also, assuming I do get > > it working, what is good antivirus for Linux? > > > > (I am running AMIBIOS w/Duron processor @ 1100MHz) > > > > Marc > > molivier1 at excite.com > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Want to start your own business? > > Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business. > > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070210/d9abf575/attachment.htm From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:35:22 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:35:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102035.l1AKZMT16343@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Free to Good Home Variety of computer parts. Several cases, power supplies, HD's, keyboards, mice, ethernet cables, power cords, too many items to mention. All this equipment was functional at the time they were retired. FREE to anyone. Please contact sales at bbwh.com and we can arrange for a showing. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:40:40 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:40:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102040.l1AKeet17050@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 2U rack mount case 2U rack mount case, in great shape and excellent working condition. Guts included for additional $$'s. Case: Intel box with hot swap HD bays. Guts: 4 36GB HD's (SCSI RAID), Intel dual Xeon PIII 833MHz chips, 1GB RAM. Make (Reasonable) Offer (check http://www.pricewatch.com/ for prices and go from there). Willing to part-out the box, but would rather keep it all together for the right price. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:44:00 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:44:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102044.l1AKi0O17743@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 3U rack mount box I have two 3U rack-mount server cases. Power supplies are included and fully functional at the time of their retirement. Guts thrown in at no additional cost, if wanted. Case: 3U rack mount with 300W PS. Guts: 900MHz Athlon w/ 256MB RAM. Make reasonable offer. check http://www.pricewatch.com/ for pricing on 3U rack-mount server cases Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sat Feb 10 14:46:20 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 14:46:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702102046.l1AKkKi18454@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: SCSI HD controllers I have four Adaptec SCSI controllers available. will accept reasonable offer. please check http://www.pricewatch.com/ for current pricing. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From josh at tcbug.org Sat Feb 10 22:09:32 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 22:09:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <20070210171019879a34ad6a@mail.smumn.edu> References: <20070210171019879a34ad6a@mail.smumn.edu> Message-ID: <200702102209.32960.josh@tcbug.org> On Saturday 10 February 2007 11:10, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote: > I think you may be asking what the defferences are from one's > perspective? I personally have used both and didn't notice any > difference in usability perhaps that Ubuntu is a straight forward > install? You raised a good question and I found an interesting read > at least I think so, so am sure you have read it before, its on the > Ubuntu site: > > Differences between Debian and Ubuntu: > > http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/relationship > Ubuntu is an ancient African word meaning: Couldn't configure debian. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From tj at kewlness.net Sun Feb 11 00:28:51 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45CEB7A3.1070201@kewlness.net> > > Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2007 10:29:12 -0600 > From: Pete Daniels > To: TCLUG > Subject: [tclug-list] N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian > > As I've said in this space before, I've been an Ubuntu user for the entire <2 years I've been using Linux, and it's been reasonably good to me. However, in light of some recent decisions made by the Ubuntu camp (the "binary video drivers by default" announcement re: 7.04 in particular), and simply in the name of broadening my horizons, I've made the decision to strike out for greener pastures, and am planning on installing Debian Etch when it finally ships. So, my question is this: Could anyone out there help me out on some of the differences I can expect to encounter? Sorry if this is an overly broad question, I really have no specific "thing" here... > > best! > -p. > > ***************************************** > Hey Pete! If you don't mind my being verbose, and somewhat opinionated, I'd be happy to elaborate on the differences between Debian and Ubuntu. I've used both - Debian for many years actually, and more recently Ubuntu for a short time. As with all things Linux, regardless of distribution it is the same OS. The only difference is what you feel comfortable with. I hope this all helps somewhat. Ask away all you like. I'll be happy to help you find one that works for you. I've used just about every major version of Linux, some FreeBSD, Solaris, and heaven knows what else. I'll start with Debian, since in describing Debian, Ubuntu falls into place. Debian, is of course, the parent distribution of Ubuntu, so they are basically identical in most respects with a few very important differences. Firstly, Debian is not just one distribution - but it's actually three branches or versions: "stable", "testing", "unstable". Technically four if you count "experimental", but thats really just a series of extensions to unstable. Stable is the version most commonly used. It's tested and true. Great for servers, very bad for desktop machines. The reason being is that the software versions are older and not up to par with what people expect. Stable is similar to FreeBSD. The software isn't the newest version, but it's rock solid and throughly tested. Security patches are backported from newer versions of existing software as needed. On average, Debian takes 2-3 years (yes, years) between stable releases. One thing you can be sure of. Debian stable boxes are solid, and I do mean solid - like granite. Debian draws a lot of criticism because of their slow stable releases. It was really because of this that Ubuntu was born. Debian stable changes at a glacial pace. The "testing" branch is the software elected for the next version of Debian stable. In order to enter the testing tree, a package can't have any bug reports filled against it for a number of weeks. Again, the software isn't the newest version, but it's close, ususally. Testing is a bit less stable than the normal "stable" tree, but far more so than Fedora Core. Its handicap is that the closer you get to release day, the faster they commit last minute changes, and the more likely you are to get a few broken dependencies on updates, which APT package management ususally corrects for automatically. But every so often, it can snafu. The "unstable" version is the developers version. This is new stuff. This is living on the bleeding edge - much like using Fedora Core. Changes and updates are made daily, sometimes hours or even minutes apart. New versions of Ubuntu come from a snapshot of the unstable tree. The problem is that since "unstable" is so fluid - changing so rapidly, dependency breakage is common. Normally again, APT is intelligent enough to incrementally upgrade your system, and thus actually prevents breakage. But it has happened. When dependencies break you might have to resort to a few manual overrides using synaptic (gui) or aptitude (command line). I've ran unstable for months at a time with no real major problems. It's more like using Fedora. I seriously recommend you never dabble in "experimental" - the extended version of unstable. It breaks, and you get to keep the pieces. Each version of Debian is divided into different archives: main, contrib, and non-free. Debian is very, very serious about software rights and FOSS. Proprietary packages may NEVER - EVER enter the main tree. Everything must be open source and patent free or patent released. The main tree is the actual Debian distribution. You can use the main tree with supreme confidence you won't get the lawyers at your door. The contrib tree is software that requires something that Debian doesn't provide in main, or open source that depends on closed source to function. An example of this would be an open source installer to install something external like Flash or Acrobat. The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, patented or proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows drives. Rather than deny it exists, Debian forged a sensible compromise. All proprietary or patented, but free to use software, like NVIDIA drivers go under "non-free". In this way, you can use them if you really want to, AND be assured that they will install and work cleanly on your systems. Ubuntu, on the other hand does things differently. They use a snapshot of the Debian unstable tree as a starting point. Then they divide it up into what they will offer support for and what they won't (unlike Debian who supports every single package they maintain). In other words, Ubuntu is in effect, a subset of Debian, but since Debian is over 16,000 packages, you can't blame them. The Debian packages Ubuntu won't support are sent into the "multiverse" archive, to use at your own risk. The remaining ones are used in the Ubuntu distribution - which is then tested, patched and released every 6 months or so. About 3,000 (conservative estimate) of the 16,000+ Debian supported packages ever make it into the main part of Ubuntu. Ubuntu, unlike Debian, has no qualms about using proprietary software in the main packages, as you have noted - especially video drivers. That's basically the difference. Ubuntu is aiming for the commercial desktop experience. Debian aims to just do a good job, and provide the widest selection, most stable, best software they can on a volunteer basis with the principles for open source firmly in mind. Your next question is probably going to be: so what do you use? I use Debian stable for servers. For my own use, I use a modified version of Gentoo currently. Why you may ask? I like to play with source code. Cheers! -- T.J. ==================================================== "I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details." -- Erik Naggum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070211/d176c85f/attachment-0001.vcf From esper at sherohman.org Sun Feb 11 09:21:26 2007 From: esper at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 09:21:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <45CEB7A3.1070201@kewlness.net> References: <45CEB7A3.1070201@kewlness.net> Message-ID: <20070211152126.GD13750@genma.sherohman.org> Pretty good overview, but a couple minor nits... On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 12:28:51AM -0600, T.J. Duchene wrote: > Stable is the version most commonly used. It's tested and true. Great > for servers, very bad for desktop machines. The reason being is that > the software versions are older and not up to par with what people > expect. I disagree that this is "very bad" for desktop machines. I've run a medium-scale corporate network with Debian stable for all new installs and, aside from a little initial "it's not Windows!" resistance from new hires in their first week or two, had no complaints/issues with it. Based on what I've seen, most of the stuff that's "not up to par with what people expect" is just eye candy anyhow and adds nothing to functionality for the average user. Bleeding-edge, anti-aliased, 3d-accelerated, composited alpha channel googaws may impress your friends, but there's no real need for them. (Even if Vista is attempting to make them ubiquitous.) > Ubuntu, on the other hand does things differently. They use a snapshot > of the Debian unstable tree as a starting point. Then they divide it up > into what they will offer support for and what they won't (unlike Debian > who supports every single package they maintain). In other words, > Ubuntu is in effect, a subset of Debian, but since Debian is over 16,000 > packages, you can't blame them. Debian is over 16,000 packages on 11 different CPU architectures. As near as I can tell, it appears that Ubuntu, in addition to cutting back to 3000 packages, also supports only 3 architectures (x86, x86_64, and PPC). But, again, you can't really blame them for focusing on the CPUs that such a large majority of systems run on. -- Windows Vista must be the first OS in history to have error codes for things like "display quality too high" - Peter Gutmann, "A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection" http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 11 10:44:05 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:44:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702111644.l1BGi5A13744@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 3 Complete Proliant Servers and other parts Compaq Proliant Servers I have the following Compaq Proliant Servers and parts For Sale. Please make me an offer for all or any of the following: I live in Crystal and you will have to pick up servers from my house. I can help you load them in your vehicle. Only make me an offer if you are familiar with Compaq/HP server hardware as these servers are not the same as a normal home desktops. All servers are tested and working but sold as is. Server 1: Compaq Proliant 3000 2 Pentium 2 333 MHz cpu's 2.8GB Ram Redundant power supplies (2) Smart Array 2DH (set up for raid 5) (7) 9.1GB Hard Drives 1 Eterhnet card Server 2: Compaq Proliaint 3000 1 300 MHz cpu 196MB Ram (5) 4.3GB Hard Drives Redundant power supplies (2) Smart Array 3200 (set for Raid 5) 2 Nics Server 3: Compaq Proliant 5500 (4) Intel Xeon PII 400MHz cpu's with 1MB cache each! 1.8GB Ram Smart Array 4200 (set up for Raid 5) (3) 9.1 GB 10,000 RPM drives 2 Nic's Redundant power supplies (2) Other Proliant parts 3 Proliant 3000/5500 redundant power supplies 2 spare fan kits partial kit for Remote Insight kit Smart array 2ch raid card Please contact me for any questions or make me an offer. I'm flexable with pickup times. E-mail: sale-275214557 at craigslist.org Seller Email address: rob dot hastings at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From ai9nl at arrl.net Sun Feb 11 12:42:40 2007 From: ai9nl at arrl.net (Harv Nelson) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 12:42:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive Message-ID: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig USB flash drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout having to reinstall the whole works? i'm told the usb swap file will be much faster ... almost like having it in ram. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070211/7d116e7e/attachment.htm From josh at tcbug.org Sun Feb 11 13:10:44 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 13:10:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702111310.44718.josh@tcbug.org> On Sunday 11 February 2007 12:42, Harv Nelson wrote: > is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig USB > flash drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout having to > reinstall the whole works? i'm told the usb swap file will be > much faster ... almost like having it in ram. USB 2.0 isn't any faster than any modern hard drive would be. There's no need to reinstall to move it though. Just create a swap partition on the drive and edit /etc/fstab appropriately. Also, on a modern machine, you really shouldn't be swapping much anyways. You might consider adding more RAM. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From tclug at lizakowski.com Sun Feb 11 14:28:17 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:28:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200702111428.18685.tclug@lizakowski.com> > is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig USB flash > drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout having to reinstall the > whole works? i'm told the usb swap file will be much faster ... almost > like having it in ram. USB flash is not as fast as ram. It's read speed might compare to hard drives, but it's write speed is often slower. Sometimes much slower. http://arstechnica.com/reviews/hardware/flash2005.ars/9 However, flash memory should have less latency than a mechanical drive. This could make it faster for some applications, especially read-only scenarios that involve lots of random access to small files. I don't think it would work well for swap, but it might be good for storing /boot, /lib, and /etc. If you want to avoid USB, you can buy adapters that connect compact flash card directly to IDE - it's essentially the same interface. Jeremy From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu Sun Feb 11 14:39:08 2007 From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:39:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: WTB PC 2100 Message-ID: <20070211203908599a34d97d@mail.smumn.edu> Again sorry for posting here directly. Am looking for a couple of PC 2100 512MB to 1G I don't mind driving as long as its not too far in or around Bloomington. Thank you, David "Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein "Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!" From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Feb 11 19:19:47 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 19:19:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702120119.l1C1Jlx21789@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: HP Scanjet 5p flatbed scanner HP Scanjet 5p flatbed scanner. Includes bundled Initio PCI SCSI card (not Linux friendly, last I checked) and an Adaptec 2940 SCSI card (haven't tested or verified). $50. Seller Email address: bhartm at visi dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From cncole at earthlink.net Sun Feb 11 20:16:22 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 20:16:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Harv Nelson > Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive > > > is there a way to move my existing swap partition to a 4 gig > USB flash drive. on a working Debian Etch system, witout > having to reinstall the whole works? i'm told the usb swap > file will be much faster ... almost like having it in ram. Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. The life is not short, but is write cycle-related so use as any form of cache or frequent swap space would not be wise. Perhaps that's no longer true, but it was in some product specs I've seen. Chuck From cschumann at twp-llc.com Mon Feb 12 07:06:22 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 07:06:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201c74ea6$98c7d840$6417a8c0@piv17> > Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 > From: "T.J. Duchene" > The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, > patented or > proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile > everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows > drives. As a Fedora user, I believe that's not the whole truth. Like Debian, Fedora is serious about closed source. Fortunately, there is a large community of Fedora users to fill this obvious gap. ATRpms and Livna are two well-respected repositories you can use to install most drivers and other packages. Currently, I'm using ATRpms for madwifi on some laptops, and Livna for mplayer and xine. Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had to compile anything on Fedora Core unless I want to actually do software development, or use some very new software. Chris From admin at lctn.org Mon Feb 12 08:26:32 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 08:26:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] connection drops off Message-ID: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> I have an Ubuntu server that runs through an IpCop firewall. Frequently, the server will lose connection to all other devices on the network, except the IPCop box. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, connectivity to the network is restored. Any ideas? Raymond -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From chewie at wookimus.net Mon Feb 12 09:59:15 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 09:59:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. It's not a good idea at all. If you want swap, use a hard-drive. If you want high performance for swap, put it on the outside cylinders of your hard-drive (the last partition). Better yet, have multiple hard drives and put it on the end of each disk. Linux understands how to increase performance across multiple swap devices. Also remember, the "swap = 2 * Physical RAM" is no longer necessary, especially when you start getting into large amounts of physical memory. Swap equal to physical is about as much as you need today, and I generally use less. Anyway, back to the grind. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From teeahr1 at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:23:49 2007 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (Pete Daniels) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:23:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <007201c74ea6$98c7d840$6417a8c0@piv17> References: <007201c74ea6$98c7d840$6417a8c0@piv17> Message-ID: <1f729feb0702120823i1bc9079uc07c954907d9aa59@mail.gmail.com> My thanks to everyone who replied. You've given me some food for thought. -p. On 2/12/07, Chris Schumann wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 > > From: "T.J. Duchene" > > > The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, > > patented or > > proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile > > everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows > > drives. > > As a Fedora user, I believe that's not the whole truth. > > Like Debian, Fedora is serious about closed source. Fortunately, there is > a > large community of Fedora users to fill this obvious gap. ATRpms and Livna > are two well-respected repositories you can use to install most drivers > and > other packages. Currently, I'm using ATRpms for madwifi on some laptops, > and > Livna for mplayer and xine. > > Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had to compile anything on Fedora > Core > unless I want to actually do software development, or use some very new > software. > > Chris > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070212/c15b20bf/attachment.htm From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:26:48 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:26:48 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Chad Walstrom wrote: > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. > > And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for > read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. > It's not a good idea at all. If you want swap, use a hard-drive. If > you want high performance for swap, put it on the outside cylinders of > your hard-drive (the last partition). Better yet, have multiple hard > drives and put it on the end of each disk. Linux understands how to > increase performance across multiple swap devices. > > Also remember, the "swap = 2 * Physical RAM" is no longer necessary, > especially when you start getting into large amounts of physical > memory. Swap equal to physical is about as much as you need today, > and I generally use less. > > Anyway, back to the grind. Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: Q: Won't this wear out the drive? A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we support. I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx -- jonner From cncole at earthlink.net Mon Feb 12 10:39:59 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:39:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:27 AM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive > > > On 2/12/07, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > > > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. > > > > And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for > > read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > support. > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar > setup under linux... > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > -- > jonner > OH.. we must believe Microsoft! They are omniscient and never make mistakes or have vulnerabilities, right? This is at most "if our software does this, then spec sheet info says the flash will do that.. statistically. Statistics also say that some will die much sooner. What might would one lose or trash when swap is lost or hiccups during transactions? Neat new game to play, right? Chuck From erikerik at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 10:40:50 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 10:40:50 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > support. > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. -Erik From sos at zjod.net Mon Feb 12 11:08:26 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 11:08:26 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702121708.l1CH8QkF014337@zjod.net> Erik Anderson wrote: > > On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > support. > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device > will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer > media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is > used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. > Best-fit. First-fit. Least-recently-used. Largest-block. All the aforementioned with/without dynamic, sporadic and/or only-when-we- run-out-of-space recycling of free space. In the end, it probably doesn't matter how the device is used because it's always possible to construct a "worst case" scenario that hammers the daylights out of a very small section of available swap. And Murphy's Law makes me rather suspect the worst case might happen more than you might realize. I'd avoid using flash drives for swap, until your flash drive comes with at least a 10**8 read/write cycle guarantee. In the end, you'd be better off redirecting your flash drive budget to upgrading your main memory or disk drives. Unless I found a case of 'em in the street or the price drops to $5'idly, -S From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 12:55:23 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 12:55:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Erik Anderson wrote: > On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > support. > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device > will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer > media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is > used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash drive as swap. -- jonner From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 13:02:26 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:02:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Chuck Cole wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:27 AM > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive > > > > > > On 2/12/07, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > > On Sun, Feb 11, 2007 at 08:16:22PM -0600, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > > Regardless of the other issues, flash RAM has a limited read/write > > > > lifetime unlike "regular" RAM or a hard disk. > > > > > > And this, folks is why you don't use flash-based storage for > > > read-write intensive operations, such as swap. Just don't do it. > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > support. > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar > > setup under linux... > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > -- > > jonner > > > > OH.. we must believe Microsoft! They are omniscient and never make > mistakes or have vulnerabilities, right? > > This is at most "if our software does this, then spec sheet info says > the flash will do that.. statistically. Statistics also say that some > will die much sooner. What might would one lose or trash when swap is > lost or hiccups during transactions? > > Neat new game to play, right? How is this different than any other lifespan specification? I was just pointing out what microsoft had to say on the matter since this is an advertised feature of their new operating system. I wasn't necessarily endorsing the idea of using flash as swap or treating microsoft as an infallible source. I was simply adding one more data point to the discussion since it seemed relevant. You're free to ignore it if you wish. -- jonner From webmaster at mn-linux.org Mon Feb 12 13:36:19 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:36:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702121936.l1CJaJe09348@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Want to Buy Subject: Intel 478 Processor I'm looking for a known good Intel 478 processor I can use to test with a non-booting Intel D845GEBV2 mother board. Any Celeron 1.7-2.8 or P4 1.4-3.06 with a 400 or 533 FSB should work. The current 2.5mhz P4 processor has a dead cooling fan. Anybody have something gathering dust? Thanks, Carl Seller Email address: pclinux at charter dot net http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From erikerik at gmail.com Mon Feb 12 13:53:41 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:53:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash > drive as swap. Mea culpa. I jumped right to the Q&A, missing the context. -Erik -- Erik Anderson http://andersonfam.org From sos at zjod.net Mon Feb 12 14:19:25 2007 From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:19:25 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200702122019.l1CKJPfw001222@zjod.net> Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > On 2/12/07, Erik Anderson wrote: > > On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > > > > > > Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new > > > features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: > > > Q: Won't this wear out the drive? > > > A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are > > > smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research > > > shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we > > > support. > > > > > > I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... > > > > > > [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx > > > > This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device > > will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer > > media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is > > used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. > > Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash > drive as swap. > Well, given the way the blog article referenced starts out, we can safely ignore any conclusions about performance it draws. > Back in April, I posted a blog entry on the ReadyBoost > feature - the Windows Vista feature that allows you > to use a USB key as virtual memory in order to enhance > performance. Using virtual memory of any kind never enhances performance. It does allow you to run larger and/or more applications at the same time. Based on what I've seen scanning WWW sites about flash drives, most are only good for about a million write cycles... no more. Further, the top rated speeds aren't achieved until reading > 64 KB or writing > 2048 KB, which depending on how your box uses swap space, may be the wrong sizes for good swap performance. If you check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_device_bandwidths, you'll find a table of various bus-speeds. Note that the maximum bus speed can limit the maximum device speed when devices are faster than the bus. There are dozens of other disclaimers about observed versus theoretical maximum rates of transfer, but in general, the faster a bus is rated, the faster it will be in practice. When visiting that page, compare USB "Hi-speed" against whatever kind of disks you have in your computer. Most modern disks operate at faster bus speeds than the fastest available USB. Which, in the end, means that if you want to slow your computer down, substitute a USB flash drive for your current disk-resident swap space (or, for that matter, any other kind of filesystem). Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Hope this helps, -S From cdf123 at cdf123.net Mon Feb 12 14:37:07 2007 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 14:37:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] move swap file to a USB drive In-Reply-To: References: <6a470a5f0702111042g1e455f8ds7c12690d4b4c4609@mail.gmail.com> <20070212155915.GA18331@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <45D0CFF3.8030504@cdf123.net> Jonathon Jongsma wrote: > On 2/12/07, Erik Anderson wrote: >> On 2/12/07, Jonathon Jongsma wrote: >>> Note that this flash-drive-as-swap is supposedly one of the new >>> features of Windows Vista. This is from the FAQ [1]: >>> Q: Won't this wear out the drive? >>> A: Nope. We're aware of the lifecycle issues with flash drives and are >>> smart about how and when we do our writes to the device. Our research >>> shows that we will get at least 10+ years out of flash devices that we >>> support. >>> >>> I have no idea how long a device would last with a similar setup under linux... >>> >>> [1] http://blogs.msdn.com/tomarcher/archive/2006/06/02/615199.aspx >> This is really immaterial. They're assuming that the flash device >> will be used as flash devices normally are - as portable data transfer >> media, not as swap. It really doesn't matter which OS the device is >> used with...rather, it's *how* the device is used. > > Huh? did you read the article? It was *all* about using the flash > drive as swap. > Actually, from what I read, this isn't about using flash as swap. Q: What happens when you remove the drive? A: When a surprise remove event occurs and we can't find the drive, we fall back to disk. Again, all pages on the device are backed by a page on disk. No exceptions. This isn't a separate page file store, but rather a cache to speed up access to frequently used data. It's using flash as swap "CACHE". The article states that the HD is very efficient at large sequential reads, and a majority of flash keys are good for small random reads. The technique they are talking about is *mirroring* the small random sections of the swap onto the flash disk. In that case, when you add a flash disk, you don't gain anything, but you loose the seek time of the HD for the smaller swap reads, and free up the HD for the long sequential reads. This is _NOT_ using flash as swap. When you talk about using flash as swap, then when you add a 1G flash drive to the system, you should have that much more free swap. The article does not cover that. According to the article, when you add a 1G flash drive, you don't get 1G of more swap, you get 1G of cache for the swap file. So if you are low on memory, adding a flash disk like this won't help at all. And as far as I know, there isn't an equivalent setup for this in Linux. And from reading the rest of the article, I'm not sure I'd want to do this anyway. Q: Isn't user data on a removable device a security risk? A: This was one of our first concerns and to mitigate this risk, we use AES-128 to encrypt everything that we write to the device. AES-128 encrypted swap? Add to that the complexity of trying to figure out what sections of swap are going to be small and random, weather the cache on the flash disk is current compared to the HD copy, timeouts trying to read flash drives during a "surprise remove", and trying to limit writes to keep your drive alive for "10+ years", I'm amazed that there's any noticeable performance improvement with this. It's no wonder they wanted to require 64bit CPUs. I'll admit, it's a cool idea and a good setup, but to quote Matt Ayers from the article: "adding RAM is still the best way to relieve memory pressure." From tj at kewlness.net Mon Feb 12 21:28:14 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:28:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> > > On 2/12/07, Chris Schumann wrote: > >>> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:28:51 -0600 >>> From: "T.J. Duchene" >>> >>> The "non-free" tree is Debian's answer to the closed source, >>> patented or >>> proprietary world. Fedora Core, for example, makes you recompile >>> everything if you want to use NTFS to read your Windows >>> drives. >>> >> As a Fedora user, I believe that's not the whole truth. >> >> Like Debian, Fedora is serious about closed source. Fortunately, there is >> a >> large community of Fedora users to fill this obvious gap. ATRpms and Livna >> are two well-respected repositories you can use to install most drivers >> and >> other packages. Currently, I'm using ATRpms for madwifi on some laptops, >> and >> Livna for mplayer and xine. >> >> Maybe I've been lucky, but I've never had to compile anything on Fedora >> Core >> unless I want to actually do software development, or use some very new >> software. >> >> Chris >> >> In all fairness, you are quite correct, Chris. I stand corrected, and will clarify. The default Fedora kernel has NTFS disabled by default. In order to get it working, it requires replacement, installation of the ntfs module, or complete recompilation. My only real discontent with third party RPMs is that they don't always meet the QA standards of the Core distribution. Debian's "non-free" archive tends to meet the same QA and dependency standards as the "main" tree, and so integrates a bit better. On the other hand, I hear that Fedora Core and Fedora Extras will be merged in the next release, so it may alleviate a lot of problems. I just wish that Livna and other archives followed the dependency chains a bit better so that you could use packages from any of the repositories you choose equally. -- T.J. ==================================================== "I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been to create and use a language that does not overload the whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details." -- Erik Naggum -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070212/1f37c571/attachment-0001.vcf From jima at beer.tclug.org Tue Feb 13 07:15:58 2007 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:15:58 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> References: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > In all fairness, you are quite correct, Chris. > > I stand corrected, and will clarify. The default Fedora kernel has > NTFS disabled by default. In order to get it working, it requires > replacement, installation of the ntfs module, or complete > recompilation. My only real discontent with third party RPMs is that > they don't always meet the QA standards of the Core distribution. I'm going to have to call BS on this one. For Livna, at least (which does provide a kmod-ntfs RPM), they generally use the packaging guidelines from Fedora Extras, which are actually more stringent than those previously used by Fedora Core. Right now (as you said below), Core is in the process of getting merged into Extras, so the entire distribution is getting re-reviewed and brought up to the more defined standards of Extras. (This also enables the community to participate in maintenance of previously Core packages, at least theoretically.) So, no, I wouldn't claim third-party repositories don't meet the QA standards of Core; they often exceed them (although this is changing, fortunately). > On the other hand, I hear that Fedora Core and Fedora Extras will be > merged in the next release, so it may alleviate a lot of problems. I > just wish that Livna and other archives followed the dependency chains a > bit better so that you could use packages from any of the repositories > you choose equally. I've never really had an issue using Livna, aside from the occasional day or two lag between a new kernel and the corresponding kmod RPMs. As their FAQ says, most Livna contributors are involved in Fedora, as well. The other third-party repos, well...I suspect they'll be improving before too long. Jima From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Feb 13 10:14:13 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:14:13 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702131614.l1DGEDQ30663@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Want for Free Subject: Want a free computer I am looking for a free computer that is able to run linux on it. If someone would please help it would be great. I can pick up in the minneapolis area. Seller Email address: chomboteda at yahoo dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From robbyt at robbyt.net Tue Feb 13 11:18:36 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 11:18:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] connection drops off In-Reply-To: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <1f663090702130918t46b10854g3de43d8e7e3e4df1@mail.gmail.com> On 2/12/07, admin at lctn.org wrote: > > I have an Ubuntu server that runs through an IpCop firewall. Frequently, > the server will lose connection to all other devices on the network, > except the IPCop box. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, connectivity > to the network is restored. > > Any ideas? > > > Raymond > check your ARP tables (on routers and PCs) for IP conflicts -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070213/81264a81/attachment.htm From aa0p at arrl.net Tue Feb 13 14:29:58 2007 From: aa0p at arrl.net (K0SDH) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 14:29:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Help - Networking Windows and Linux Machines Message-ID: Am a green newby and need help/info regarding how to get my Windows and Linux computers to trade files over an ethernet. My initial write-up got quite lengthy so decided to go this route and ask for a volunteer; then I can send details direct and not use time/space on the TCLUG reflector. Thanks, Steve -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 16:01:01 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:01:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Help - Networking Windows and Linux Machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <101e49ea0702131401y4281a506taeb99351fb753101@mail.gmail.com> To get Windows to see your files, I like to use Samba. Most people find Samba intimidating to set up, and it can be. The documentation for it is massive. However, I find this page extremely useful and a very quick way to get Samba going on your Linux end: http://us1.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/FastStart.html After you set this up, you should see your linux files (in the directories that you shared) in your "My Network Places" For linux to see your files on Windows, you need to enable file sharing, and the instructions for that vary a bit depending on the version of Windows you are using. Search your help file in Windows. Then on the linux side, then it depends if you are using KDE, Gnome, etc. as to what you do to see the windows network. In KDE and Gnome, you can browse your network similar to My Network Places, and should see your Windows machine there. I only use WORKGROUP networking, so if you are using DOMAINS and such, I don't know how much of a help this is. - Joey On 2/13/07, K0SDH wrote: > > Am a green newby and need help/info regarding how to get my Windows and > Linux computers to trade files over an ethernet. > > My initial write-up got quite lengthy so decided to go this route and ask > for a volunteer; then I can send details direct and not use time/space on > the TCLUG reflector. > > Thanks, > Steve > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070213/4fd11176/attachment.htm From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Feb 13 16:52:39 2007 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 16:52:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] was: N00b seeks advice; Ubuntu vs. Debian In-Reply-To: References: <45D1304E.2070309@kewlness.net> Message-ID: As this conversation was sparked by the directions Ubuntu is/was going with binary drivers, you may want to read the latest update sent https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-announce/2007-February/000098.html -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0; 0 rows returned From jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org Wed Feb 14 15:51:01 2007 From: jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org (Joseph Key) Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:51:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sun Ultra 60 Message-ID: <45D38445.70307@tomobiki.dyndns.org> I picked up a Sun Ultra 60 Creator 3D without a power supply. I was wondering if anyone has a spare power supply for this machine that I could purchase or borrow to test the system with. Thanks, Joseph Key From webmaster at mn-linux.org Thu Feb 15 10:01:05 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 10:01:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702151601.l1FG15Y32232@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Dell CRT Monitor Dell 21" CRT monitor for sale, originally made by Sony. Dell model number Ultrascan P1110. Monitor is in good working condition, does up to 1600x1200. Includes VGA and power cable. Monitor has 1.5" scratch in the upper middle. View the classified ad to see picture of monitor. (You can see the scratch in the upper middle). Larger picture available at link. Monitor is $25, pickup in Chaska. Seller Email address: silwenae at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Thu Feb 15 17:20:22 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2007 17:20:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702152320.l1FNKMH30945@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: New DELL Desktop,Pentium D945/3.40GHz $650 Hello fellow TCLUGers! I have recently come across a deal I could not pass up. In turn, I have a few extra machines on my hands. The details: OptiPlex 745 Desktop,Pentium D945/3.40GHz,2X2M,800FSB 512MB,Non-ECC,667MHz DDR2 1x512 Dell USB Keyboard Dell USB Premium Optical 5-Button Mouse Integrated Video, Intel GMA3000 80GB SATA 3.0Gb/s 8MB DataBurst Cache 3.5 inch,1.44MB,Floppy Drive Windows XP Professional Service Pack 2,with Media 48X32 CDRW/DVD SATA Combo 3 Year Next BusinessDay Parts and Labor On-Site Response Warranty Retails for $915.00 Asking $650. This computer is Brand New and still in its original packaging. (In fact, I havent even opened it). Email me if interested! Andy Schmid ajs at cems.umn.edu Seller Email address: ajs at cems dot umn dot edu http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From dniesen at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 09:04:49 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:04:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? I've been poking around a little bit and the rates all seem to be in the same ballpark with features scattered all over the place. I'd like to hear about any good/bad experiences people may have had with various providers. -- Donovan Niesen From dalan at visi.com Fri Feb 16 09:41:32 2007 From: dalan at visi.com (dalan at visi.com) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:41:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> I've had really bad experience with Vonage. Between losing my phone number during the transfer to the abysmal help desk I would never go back to Vonage. While dealing with Vonage I found out that the government has no control over VOIP companies like it does when it comes to Qwest. So if there is a problem with the service your just on your own to get it fixed. Just my two cents Don S Quoting Donovan Niesen : > Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? I've > been poking around a little bit and the rates all seem to be in the > same ballpark with features scattered all over the place. I'd like to > hear about any good/bad experiences people may have had with various > providers. > > > -- > Donovan Niesen > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From rwh at visi.com Fri Feb 16 09:29:05 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 09:29:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45D5CDC1.1040601@visi.com> The latest issue of Linux Journal was on Asterisk. I recall seeing a short mention of different providers but I don't recall the details. --rick http://www.linuxjournal.com/ Donovan Niesen wrote: > Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? I've > been poking around a little bit and the rates all seem to be in the > same ballpark with features scattered all over the place. I'd like to > hear about any good/bad experiences people may have had with various > providers. > > From sac at cheesecake.org Fri Feb 16 10:06:30 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:06:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> Message-ID: <20070216160630.GA11305@cheesecake.org> On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 09.41.32 -0600, dalan at visi.com wrote: > Quoting Donovan Niesen : > > Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? > > I've had really bad experience with Vonage. Between losing my phone > number during the transfer to the abysmal help desk I would never go > back to Vonage. Well Asterisk will not work with Vonage at all anyway, so that's moot. I have not hooked Asterisk up to anything via IAX, but I investigated it once. I decided back then that if I did such a thing, I'd check out Teliax. They have a prepaid plan that is really cheap for low usage, something like 2c/min plus $5/mo/DID. Just my twopence (would have been only one penny, but inflation, etc.) -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From dniesen at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 10:17:52 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:17:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702160817i79dd0a34k7257e77566df8bd4@mail.gmail.com> I have had the same experience with Vonage. An inordinate number of outages, sometimes calls just don't come through, ridiculous SIP services, unreliable web interface, high bandwidth usage. Anybody want to buy a Motorola Phone Adapter and a Linksys Vonage Router? :) On 2/16/07, dalan at visi.com wrote: > I've had really bad experience with Vonage. Between losing my phone number > during the transfer to the abysmal help desk I would never go back to Vonage. > > While dealing with Vonage I found out that the government has no control over > VOIP companies like it does when it comes to Qwest. So if there is a problem > with the service your just on your own to get it fixed. > > Just my two cents > Don S > > Quoting Donovan Niesen : > > > Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? I've > > been poking around a little bit and the rates all seem to be in the > > same ballpark with features scattered all over the place. I'd like to > > hear about any good/bad experiences people may have had with various > > providers. > > > > > > -- > > Donovan Niesen > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Donovan Niesen From erikerik at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 10:36:58 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:36:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/16/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? I've > been poking around a little bit and the rates all seem to be in the > same ballpark with features scattered all over the place. I'd like to > hear about any good/bad experiences people may have had with various > providers. I've been using a small VoIP shop to provide call termination/origination for work: http://www.sentinelcommunications.com/ Yes, they have a crappy website, but their VoIP service and support have been great. They use asterisk in their datacenter, and are very asterisk friendly. When initially implementing my asterisk server, I ran into a few obscure issues - they asked me to send along a verbose SIP log, which I did. Within minutes, they had found the source of the problem and sent me the appropriate asterisk configs to resolve the issue. If you do end up using these guys, tell John I sent you. -Erik From erikerik at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 10:38:54 2007 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:38:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2/16/07, Erik Anderson wrote: > > Yes, they have a crappy website, but their VoIP service and support > have been great. They use asterisk in their datacenter, and are very > asterisk friendly. When initially implementing my asterisk server, I > ran into a few obscure issues - they asked me to send along a verbose > SIP log, which I did. Within minutes, they had found the source of > the problem and sent me the appropriate asterisk configs to resolve > the issue. One quick addendum...Sentinel has the ability to terminate over SIP or IAX2. When I started using their service, we were using SIP, but switched over to IAX2 shortly thereafter. The changeover was seamless. -Erik From robert at hutman.net Fri Feb 16 10:20:19 2007 From: robert at hutman.net (Robert Radtke) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:20:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <20070216160630.GA11305@cheesecake.org> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> <20070216160630.GA11305@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: <45D5D9C3.8010208@hutman.net> We've been using Teliax with our Asterisk setup (Trixbox) for about a month now and I'm pretty happy with them. Setup was very easy and they handled porting a bunch of numbers without any hassle. Their account configuration tool is easy and let's you choose different gateways if you get better connection speeds to one over the other. my additional $.02. Sidney Cammeresi said this on 02/16/2007 10:06 AM: > On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 09.41.32 -0600, dalan at visi.com wrote: > >>Quoting Donovan Niesen : >> >>>Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? -----SNIP -- Robert Radtke Hutman Inc. 1710 N. Douglas Dr. #285 Minneapolis, MN 55422 612.843.1400 robert at hutman.net From dniesen at gmail.com Fri Feb 16 11:08:24 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:08:24 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers In-Reply-To: <45D5D9C3.8010208@hutman.net> References: <47f4d5e70702160704y38450da5pa2da7159a2c51987@mail.gmail.com> <1171640492.45d5d0ac7e273@my.visi.com> <20070216160630.GA11305@cheesecake.org> <45D5D9C3.8010208@hutman.net> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702160908y3b59642en6c929bf8a770b0ee@mail.gmail.com> I actually just signed up with Teliax based on another's recommendation as well. The setup was ridiculously easy and I'm already freaking out my business partner by calling him with random caller ID names/numbers. Thanks for the feedback, everyone! On 2/16/07, Robert Radtke wrote: > We've been using Teliax with our Asterisk setup (Trixbox) for about a > month now and I'm pretty happy with them. Setup was very easy and they > handled porting a bunch of numbers without any hassle. Their account > configuration tool is easy and let's you choose different gateways if > you get better connection speeds to one over the other. > > my additional $.02. > > > > Sidney Cammeresi said this on 02/16/2007 10:06 AM: > > On Fri, 16 Feb 2007 at 09.41.32 -0600, dalan at visi.com wrote: > > > >>Quoting Donovan Niesen : > >> > >>>Any favorites for Asterisk-friendly VoIP providers out there? > -----SNIP > > -- > Robert Radtke > Hutman Inc. > 1710 N. Douglas Dr. #285 > Minneapolis, MN 55422 > 612.843.1400 > robert at hutman.net > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Donovan Niesen From emon at nerdshack.com Mon Feb 19 02:54:05 2007 From: emon at nerdshack.com (Emon) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 14:54:05 +0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Package dependency question (on SuSE-10.2) Message-ID: <45D965AD.4050105@nerdshack.com> Hi everyone Here is my dilemma; I installed ekiga, which also installed about a dozen pkgs to resolve dependencies... But ekiga is not working... it tries to show a wizard but for some reason just hangs [1] Now I want to uninstall ekiga as well as the dozen pkgs it installed; is that possible??? if so... please tell me how. thanks Emon [1] emon at magicbox:~> ekiga *** glibc detected *** ekiga: double free or corruption (out): 0x08124b40 *** ======= Backtrace: ========= /lib/libc.so.6[0xb5b4d6e1] /lib/libc.so.6(cfree+0x89)[0xb5b4ed79] /lib/libc.so.6(freeaddrinfo+0x38)[0xb5b8fc28] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHostByName7GetHostERK7PString+0xcf)[0 xb6a97361] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHostByName14GetHostAddressERK7PString RN9PIPSocket7AddressE+0x20)[0xb6a974d4] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN9PIPSocket14GetHostAddressERK7PStringRNS _7AddressE+0xbf)[0xb6a975cb] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN9PIPSocket7ConnectERK7PString+0x3b)[0xb6 a976e3] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN17PInternetProtocol7ConnectERK7PStringt+ 0xee)[0xb6a7795e] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient13AssureConnectERK4PURLR9PM IMEInfo+0x276)[0xb6a35b64] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient14ExecuteCommandERK7PString RK4PURLR9PMIMEInfoS2_S7_i+0x173)[0xb6a35e15] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient14ExecuteCommandEN5PHTTP8Co mmandsERK4PURLR9PMIMEInfoRK7PStringS6_i+0x3d)[0xb6a35f57] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient11GetDocumentERK4PURLR9PMIM EInfoS4_i+0x8b)[0xb6a3618d] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient15GetTextDocumentERK4PURLR7 PStringi+0x39)[0xb6a363e1] ekiga[0x80a93ff] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN6PTimer9OnTimeoutEv+0x3a)[0xb6a9ea8a] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN6PTimer7ProcessERK13PTimeIntervalRS0_+0x 135)[0xb6a9fd9d] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN10PTimerList7ProcessEv+0x14d)[0xb6a9ff09 ] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN19PHouseKeepingThread4MainEv+0x35)[0xb6a 8afd5] /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN7PThread14PX_ThreadStartEPv+0x83)[0xb6a8 95bd] /lib/libpthread.so.0[0xb5d33112] /lib/libc.so.6(clone+0x5e)[0xb5ba82ee] ======= Memory map: ======== 08048000-080fd000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 121859 /opt/gnome/bin/ekiga 080fd000-08104000 rw-p 000b5000 03:08 121859 /opt/gnome/bin/ekiga 08104000-08441000 rw-p 08104000 00:00 0 [heap] b1e00000-b1e21000 rw-p b1e00000 00:00 0 b1e21000-b1f00000 ---p b1e21000 00:00 0 b1f2e000-b1f5b000 r--p 00000000 03:0b 312286 /usr/share/fonts/truetype/albwi .ttf b1f5b000-b1f5c000 ---p b1f5b000 00:00 0 b1f5c000-b1f9c000 rw-p b1f5c000 00:00 0 b1f9c000-b1f9d000 ---p b1f9c000 00:00 0 b1f9d000-b1fdd000 rw-p b1f9d000 00:00 0 b1fdd000-b1fde000 ---p b1fdd000 00:00 0 b1fde000-b201e000 rw-p b1fde000 00:00 0 b201e000-b201f000 ---p b201e000 00:00 0 b201f000-b205f000 rw-p b201f000 00:00 0 b205f000-b2060000 ---p b205f000 00:00 0 b2060000-b2860000 rw-p b2060000 00:00 0 b2860000-b2866000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 15871 /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/i mmodules/im-xim.so b2866000-b2868000 rw-p 00005000 03:08 15871 /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/i mmodules/im-xim.so b2868000-b2a55000 r--p 00000000 03:0b 310064 /usr/share/icons/hicolor/icon-t heme.cache b2a55000-b39e2000 r--p 00000000 03:08 165151 /opt/kde3/share/icons/hicolor/i con-theme.cache b39e2000-b3aec000 r--p 00000000 03:08 76163 /opt/gnome/share/icons/hicolor/ icon-theme.cache b3aec000-b42c8000 r--p 00000000 03:08 63678 /opt/gnome/share/icons/gnome/ic on-theme.cache b42c8000-b451e000 r--p 00000000 03:08 76264 /opt/gnome/share/icons/Tango/ic on-theme.cache b451e000-b451f000 ---p b451e000 00:00 0 b451f000-b4d1f000 rw-p b451f000 00:00 0 b4d1f000-b4d20000 ---p b4d1f000 00:00 0 b4d20000-b5520000 rw-p b4d20000 00:00 0 b5520000-b5528000 r-xp 00000000 03:0b 99449 /usr/lib/libfam.so.0.0.0 b5528000-b552a000 rw-p 00007000 03:0b 99449 /usr/lib/libfam.so.0.0.0 b553f000-b5545000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 15886 /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/l oaders/libpixbufloader-xpm.so b5545000-b5547000 rw-p 00005000 03:08 15886 /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/l oaders/libpixbufloader-xpm.so b5547000-b5551000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 47757 /opt/gnome/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/mo dules/libfile.so b5551000-b5553000 rw-p 00009000 03:08 47757 /opt/gnome/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/mo dules/libfile.so b5553000- From tclug at lizakowski.com Mon Feb 19 07:27:08 2007 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 07:27:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Package dependency question (on SuSE-10.2) In-Reply-To: <45D965AD.4050105@nerdshack.com> References: <45D965AD.4050105@nerdshack.com> Message-ID: <200702190727.09822.tclug@lizakowski.com> > Now I want to uninstall ekiga as well as the dozen pkgs it installed; is > that possible??? if so... please tell me how. Usually it's pretty easy. Have you installed anything else since then? If you have installed anything that uses those packages, then you have a dependency. Also, which distribution are you using? That makes a difference as to whether dependencies are automatically determined (yum, apt-get, Yast, etc). Jeremy On Monday 19 February 2007 2:54 am, Emon wrote: > Hi everyone > > Here is my dilemma; I installed ekiga, which also installed about a > dozen pkgs to resolve dependencies... > > But ekiga is not working... it tries to show a wizard but for some > reason just hangs [1] > > Now I want to uninstall ekiga as well as the dozen pkgs it installed; is > that possible??? if so... please tell me how. > > thanks > Emon > > > [1] > emon at magicbox:~> ekiga > *** glibc detected *** ekiga: double free or corruption (out): > 0x08124b40 *** > ======= Backtrace: ========= > /lib/libc.so.6[0xb5b4d6e1] > /lib/libc.so.6(cfree+0x89)[0xb5b4ed79] > /lib/libc.so.6(freeaddrinfo+0x38)[0xb5b8fc28] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHostByName7GetHostERK7PString+0x >cf)[0 xb6a97361] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHostByName14GetHostAddressERK7PS >tring RN9PIPSocket7AddressE+0x20)[0xb6a974d4] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN9PIPSocket14GetHostAddressERK7PStri >ngRNS _7AddressE+0xbf)[0xb6a975cb] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN9PIPSocket7ConnectERK7PString+0x3b) >[0xb6 a976e3] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN17PInternetProtocol7ConnectERK7PStr >ingt+ 0xee)[0xb6a7795e] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient13AssureConnectERK4PUR >LR9PM IMEInfo+0x276)[0xb6a35b64] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient14ExecuteCommandERK7PS >tring RK4PURLR9PMIMEInfoS2_S7_i+0x173)[0xb6a35e15] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient14ExecuteCommandEN5PHT >TP8Co mmandsERK4PURLR9PMIMEInfoRK7PStringS6_i+0x3d)[0xb6a35f57] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient11GetDocumentERK4PURLR >9PMIM EInfoS4_i+0x8b)[0xb6a3618d] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient15GetTextDocumentERK4P >URLR7 PStringi+0x39)[0xb6a363e1] > ekiga[0x80a93ff] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN6PTimer9OnTimeoutEv+0x3a)[0xb6a9ea8 >a] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN6PTimer7ProcessERK13PTimeIntervalRS >0_+0x 135)[0xb6a9fd9d] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN10PTimerList7ProcessEv+0x14d)[0xb6a >9ff09 ] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN19PHouseKeepingThread4MainEv+0x35)[ >0xb6a 8afd5] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN7PThread14PX_ThreadStartEPv+0x83)[0 >xb6a8 95bd] > /lib/libpthread.so.0[0xb5d33112] > /lib/libc.so.6(clone+0x5e)[0xb5ba82ee] > ======= Memory map: ======== > 08048000-080fd000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 121859 /opt/gnome/bin/ekiga > 080fd000-08104000 rw-p 000b5000 03:08 121859 /opt/gnome/bin/ekiga > 08104000-08441000 rw-p 08104000 00:00 0 [heap] > b1e00000-b1e21000 rw-p b1e00000 00:00 0 > b1e21000-b1f00000 ---p b1e21000 00:00 0 > b1f2e000-b1f5b000 r--p 00000000 03:0b 312286 > /usr/share/fonts/truetype/albwi > .ttf > b1f5b000-b1f5c000 ---p b1f5b000 00:00 0 > b1f5c000-b1f9c000 rw-p b1f5c000 00:00 0 > b1f9c000-b1f9d000 ---p b1f9c000 00:00 0 > b1f9d000-b1fdd000 rw-p b1f9d000 00:00 0 > b1fdd000-b1fde000 ---p b1fdd000 00:00 0 > b1fde000-b201e000 rw-p b1fde000 00:00 0 > b201e000-b201f000 ---p b201e000 00:00 0 > b201f000-b205f000 rw-p b201f000 00:00 0 > b205f000-b2060000 ---p b205f000 00:00 0 > b2060000-b2860000 rw-p b2060000 00:00 0 > b2860000-b2866000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 15871 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/i > mmodules/im-xim.so > b2866000-b2868000 rw-p 00005000 03:08 15871 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/i > mmodules/im-xim.so > b2868000-b2a55000 r--p 00000000 03:0b 310064 > /usr/share/icons/hicolor/icon-t > heme.cache > b2a55000-b39e2000 r--p 00000000 03:08 165151 > /opt/kde3/share/icons/hicolor/i con-theme.cache > b39e2000-b3aec000 r--p 00000000 03:08 76163 > /opt/gnome/share/icons/hicolor/ icon-theme.cache > b3aec000-b42c8000 r--p 00000000 03:08 63678 > /opt/gnome/share/icons/gnome/ic on-theme.cache > b42c8000-b451e000 r--p 00000000 03:08 76264 > /opt/gnome/share/icons/Tango/ic on-theme.cache > b451e000-b451f000 ---p b451e000 00:00 0 > b451f000-b4d1f000 rw-p b451f000 00:00 0 > b4d1f000-b4d20000 ---p b4d1f000 00:00 0 > b4d20000-b5520000 rw-p b4d20000 00:00 0 > b5520000-b5528000 r-xp 00000000 03:0b 99449 /usr/lib/libfam.so.0.0.0 > b5528000-b552a000 rw-p 00007000 03:0b 99449 /usr/lib/libfam.so.0.0.0 > b553f000-b5545000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 15886 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/l > oaders/libpixbufloader-xpm.so > b5545000-b5547000 rw-p 00005000 03:08 15886 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/l > oaders/libpixbufloader-xpm.so > b5547000-b5551000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 47757 > /opt/gnome/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/mo dules/libfile.so > b5551000-b5553000 rw-p 00009000 03:08 47757 > /opt/gnome/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/mo dules/libfile.so > b5553000- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From jpschewe at mtu.net Mon Feb 19 08:02:27 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:02:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Package dependency question (on SuSE-10.2) In-Reply-To: <45D965AD.4050105@nerdshack.com> References: <45D965AD.4050105@nerdshack.com> Message-ID: <1171893747.30969.7.camel@mn65-eggplant.htc.honeywell.com> You can probably check the YaST log to find the transaction, but I'm not sure how hard that is. Otherwise you should use rpm -qR ekiga and then try and remove all packages listed, note that some may be required by other systems, so those shouldn't be removed. Something like this should work (although you may need to modify the output package names some): rug info-requirements ekiga | cut -c 56-77 | sort | uniq > packages - this may take some time, make sure zmd is running rpm -e `cat packages` If anything is required by other packages, remove the line from the packages file and try rpm -e again. On Mon, 2007-02-19 at 14:54 +0600, Emon wrote: > Hi everyone > > Here is my dilemma; I installed ekiga, which also installed about a > dozen pkgs to resolve dependencies... > > But ekiga is not working... it tries to show a wizard but for some > reason just hangs [1] > > Now I want to uninstall ekiga as well as the dozen pkgs it installed; is > that possible??? if so... please tell me how. > > thanks > Emon > > > [1] > emon at magicbox:~> ekiga > *** glibc detected *** ekiga: double free or corruption (out): > 0x08124b40 *** > ======= Backtrace: ========= > /lib/libc.so.6[0xb5b4d6e1] > /lib/libc.so.6(cfree+0x89)[0xb5b4ed79] > /lib/libc.so.6(freeaddrinfo+0x38)[0xb5b8fc28] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHostByName7GetHostERK7PString+0xcf)[0 > xb6a97361] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHostByName14GetHostAddressERK7PString > RN9PIPSocket7AddressE+0x20)[0xb6a974d4] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN9PIPSocket14GetHostAddressERK7PStringRNS > _7AddressE+0xbf)[0xb6a975cb] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN9PIPSocket7ConnectERK7PString+0x3b)[0xb6 > a976e3] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN17PInternetProtocol7ConnectERK7PStringt+ > 0xee)[0xb6a7795e] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient13AssureConnectERK4PURLR9PM > IMEInfo+0x276)[0xb6a35b64] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient14ExecuteCommandERK7PString > RK4PURLR9PMIMEInfoS2_S7_i+0x173)[0xb6a35e15] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient14ExecuteCommandEN5PHTTP8Co > mmandsERK4PURLR9PMIMEInfoRK7PStringS6_i+0x3d)[0xb6a35f57] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient11GetDocumentERK4PURLR9PMIM > EInfoS4_i+0x8b)[0xb6a3618d] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN11PHTTPClient15GetTextDocumentERK4PURLR7 > PStringi+0x39)[0xb6a363e1] > ekiga[0x80a93ff] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN6PTimer9OnTimeoutEv+0x3a)[0xb6a9ea8a] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN6PTimer7ProcessERK13PTimeIntervalRS0_+0x > 135)[0xb6a9fd9d] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN10PTimerList7ProcessEv+0x14d)[0xb6a9ff09 > ] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN19PHouseKeepingThread4MainEv+0x35)[0xb6a > 8afd5] > /usr/lib/libpt_linux_x86_r.so.1.11.1(_ZN7PThread14PX_ThreadStartEPv+0x83)[0xb6a8 > 95bd] > /lib/libpthread.so.0[0xb5d33112] > /lib/libc.so.6(clone+0x5e)[0xb5ba82ee] > ======= Memory map: ======== > 08048000-080fd000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 121859 /opt/gnome/bin/ekiga > 080fd000-08104000 rw-p 000b5000 03:08 121859 /opt/gnome/bin/ekiga > 08104000-08441000 rw-p 08104000 00:00 0 [heap] > b1e00000-b1e21000 rw-p b1e00000 00:00 0 > b1e21000-b1f00000 ---p b1e21000 00:00 0 > b1f2e000-b1f5b000 r--p 00000000 03:0b 312286 > /usr/share/fonts/truetype/albwi > .ttf > b1f5b000-b1f5c000 ---p b1f5b000 00:00 0 > b1f5c000-b1f9c000 rw-p b1f5c000 00:00 0 > b1f9c000-b1f9d000 ---p b1f9c000 00:00 0 > b1f9d000-b1fdd000 rw-p b1f9d000 00:00 0 > b1fdd000-b1fde000 ---p b1fdd000 00:00 0 > b1fde000-b201e000 rw-p b1fde000 00:00 0 > b201e000-b201f000 ---p b201e000 00:00 0 > b201f000-b205f000 rw-p b201f000 00:00 0 > b205f000-b2060000 ---p b205f000 00:00 0 > b2060000-b2860000 rw-p b2060000 00:00 0 > b2860000-b2866000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 15871 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/i > mmodules/im-xim.so > b2866000-b2868000 rw-p 00005000 03:08 15871 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/i > mmodules/im-xim.so > b2868000-b2a55000 r--p 00000000 03:0b 310064 > /usr/share/icons/hicolor/icon-t > heme.cache > b2a55000-b39e2000 r--p 00000000 03:08 165151 > /opt/kde3/share/icons/hicolor/i con-theme.cache > b39e2000-b3aec000 r--p 00000000 03:08 76163 > /opt/gnome/share/icons/hicolor/ icon-theme.cache > b3aec000-b42c8000 r--p 00000000 03:08 63678 > /opt/gnome/share/icons/gnome/ic on-theme.cache > b42c8000-b451e000 r--p 00000000 03:08 76264 > /opt/gnome/share/icons/Tango/ic on-theme.cache > b451e000-b451f000 ---p b451e000 00:00 0 > b451f000-b4d1f000 rw-p b451f000 00:00 0 > b4d1f000-b4d20000 ---p b4d1f000 00:00 0 > b4d20000-b5520000 rw-p b4d20000 00:00 0 > b5520000-b5528000 r-xp 00000000 03:0b 99449 /usr/lib/libfam.so.0.0.0 > b5528000-b552a000 rw-p 00007000 03:0b 99449 /usr/lib/libfam.so.0.0.0 > b553f000-b5545000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 15886 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/l > oaders/libpixbufloader-xpm.so > b5545000-b5547000 rw-p 00005000 03:08 15886 > /opt/gnome/lib/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/l > oaders/libpixbufloader-xpm.so > b5547000-b5551000 r-xp 00000000 03:08 47757 > /opt/gnome/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/mo dules/libfile.so > b5551000-b5553000 rw-p 00009000 03:08 47757 > /opt/gnome/lib/gnome-vfs-2.0/mo dules/libfile.so > b5553000- > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ________________________________________________________________________ Jon Schewe | http://www.mtu.net/~jpschewe Help Jen and I fight cancer by donating to the Leukemia & Lymphomia Society Here's our website: http://www.active.com/tntmn/tntmnJSchewe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070219/fc35c6d6/attachment.pgp From admin at lctn.org Mon Feb 19 08:35:13 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:35:13 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] connection drops off In-Reply-To: <1f663090702130918t46b10854g3de43d8e7e3e4df1@mail.gmail.com> References: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> <1f663090702130918t46b10854g3de43d8e7e3e4df1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2856.64.8.148.4.1171895713.squirrel@lctn.org> > On 2/12/07, admin at lctn.org wrote: >> >> I have an Ubuntu server that runs through an IpCop firewall. Frequently,somewhere >> the server will lose connection to all other devices on the network, >> except the IPCop box. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, >> connectivity >> to the network is restored. >> >> Any ideas? >> >> >> Raymond >> > > check your ARP tables (on routers and PCs) for IP conflicts It only happens to the one box, which I have changed the IP on, thinking the same thing, but to no avail. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, it will always work. If I stop the ping, somwhere along the line (could be hours) it will not be able to reach other servers on my network, or get out to public IP's. Ten to fifteen seconds after I restart the ping to the firewall the box can reach any IP again. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From brockn at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 08:56:21 2007 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 08:56:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] connection drops off In-Reply-To: <2856.64.8.148.4.1171895713.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <43699.64.8.148.4.1171290392.squirrel@lctn.org> <1f663090702130918t46b10854g3de43d8e7e3e4df1@mail.gmail.com> <2856.64.8.148.4.1171895713.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <741dcbb80702190656r2b7b102ft60fe126244f28256@mail.gmail.com> I had a bad network card that caused some extremely flaky network connectivity. It worked fine for 3 days at a time. Like clockwork on the third day it drop off the network. If I changed its ip, it starting working again. I replaced it with the exact same model and it works fine now. Worth a try? Brock On 2/19/07, admin at lctn.org wrote: > > > On 2/12/07, admin at lctn.org wrote: > >> > >> I have an Ubuntu server that runs through an IpCop firewall. > Frequently,somewhere > >> the server will lose connection to all other devices on the network, > >> except the IPCop box. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, > >> connectivity > >> to the network is restored. > >> > >> Any ideas? > >> > >> > >> Raymond > >> > > > > check your ARP tables (on routers and PCs) for IP conflicts > > > It only happens to the one box, which I have changed the IP on, thinking > the same thing, but to no avail. If I run a steady ping to the firewall, > it will always work. If I stop the ping, somwhere along the line (could be > hours) it will not be able to reach other servers on my network, or get > out to public IP's. Ten to fifteen seconds after I restart the ping to the > firewall the box can reach any IP again. > > -- > This message has been scanned for viruses and > dangerous content by MailScanner, and is > believed to be clean. > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- http://free-sailboat-listings.com http://spamdefeator.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070219/a92f36e7/attachment-0001.htm From aa0p at arrl.net Mon Feb 19 13:19:23 2007 From: aa0p at arrl.net (Steven Huntsman) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:19:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] ISO file Message-ID: When I download Ubuntu I get an ISO file which I have burned to a CD (this is using my Windoze machine). I have loaded Ubuntu 5.10 onto another machine via a CD from Library book. That machine runs however Firefox browser seems to only go to Ubuntu web site. The/a second tab doesn't connect to the internet but eventually displays a "times out" message. Also I can't figure out how to access files from other Windows machines via ethernet. Therefore the Linux experience thus far is fruitless and frustrating. I would like to get Ubuntu 6.10 onto the Linux machine but when putting the CD, mentioned above, in the 5.10 machine not much happens of a useful nature. How does one use the Windows machine to creat a CD that is not an "ISO" file?? Thanks, Steve ps - thanks to Joey R for the ifconfig clue!! -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ From josh at joshwelch.com Mon Feb 19 13:12:40 2007 From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:12:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] ISO file In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070219131240.xxcmuws201348w8o@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> An ISO file is just an image of a CD/DVD, as you've found burning an ISO file to a CD provides no value. What you will need to do is use a CD Burning utility which can open an ISO file, i.e. Nero or similar, and burn the contents of the ISO to your CD. You can then use this for the purpose you intend. Josh Quoting Steven Huntsman : > When I download Ubuntu I get an ISO file which I have burned to a CD (this > is using my Windoze machine). > > I have loaded Ubuntu 5.10 onto another machine via a CD from Library book. > That machine runs however Firefox browser seems to only go to Ubuntu web > site. The/a second tab doesn't connect to the internet but eventually > displays a "times out" message. Also I can't figure out how to access > files from other Windows machines via ethernet. Therefore the Linux > experience thus far is fruitless and frustrating. > > I would like to get Ubuntu 6.10 onto the Linux machine but when putting > the CD, mentioned above, in the 5.10 machine not much happens of a useful > nature. How does one use the Windows machine to creat a CD that is not > an "ISO" file?? > Thanks, > Steve > > ps - thanks to Joey R for the ifconfig clue!! > > -- > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From rwh at visi.com Mon Feb 19 13:54:53 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 13:54:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] ISO file In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DA008D.6060605@visi.com> I think this is what I use to use. The other option is that Nero provides a free trial that can burn ISOs as well. --rick http://www.petri.co.il/how_to_write_iso_files_to_cd.htm Steven Huntsman wrote: > When I download Ubuntu I get an ISO file which I have burned to a CD (this > is using my Windoze machine). > > I have loaded Ubuntu 5.10 onto another machine via a CD from Library book. > That machine runs however Firefox browser seems to only go to Ubuntu web > site. The/a second tab doesn't connect to the internet but eventually > displays a "times out" message. Also I can't figure out how to access > files from other Windows machines via ethernet. Therefore the Linux > experience thus far is fruitless and frustrating. > > I would like to get Ubuntu 6.10 onto the Linux machine but when putting > the CD, mentioned above, in the 5.10 machine not much happens of a useful > nature. How does one use the Windows machine to creat a CD that is not > an "ISO" file?? > Thanks, > Steve > > ps - thanks to Joey R for the ifconfig clue!! > From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com Mon Feb 19 16:11:31 2007 From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John T. Hoffoss) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 16:11:31 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] ISO file In-Reply-To: <20070219131240.xxcmuws201348w8o@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> References: <20070219131240.xxcmuws201348w8o@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> Message-ID: <914f813c0702191411s438eaf0q5102b099eddb5a8f@mail.gmail.com> On 2/19/07, Josh Welch wrote: > An ISO file is just an image of a CD/DVD, as you've found burning an > ISO file to a CD provides no value. What you will need to do is use a > CD Burning utility which can open an ISO file, i.e. Nero or similar, > and burn the contents of the ISO to your CD. You can then use this for > the purpose you intend. Since Steven is probably already running Windows, there's also a free powertoy utility from Microsoft that will burn an ISO. FYI. -John From auditodd at comcast.net Mon Feb 19 20:10:44 2007 From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 02:10:44 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] ISO file Message-ID: <022020070210.11539.45DA58A40003893A00002D1322007636920B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> My personal favorite CD/DVD burning utility for Windows is DeepBurner. There is a free version, a pro version, and a portable version. I've been using it for years and find it invaluable. -- ========== Todd Young -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "John T. Hoffoss" > On 2/19/07, Josh Welch wrote: > > An ISO file is just an image of a CD/DVD, as you've found burning an > > ISO file to a CD provides no value. What you will need to do is use a > > CD Burning utility which can open an ISO file, i.e. Nero or similar, > > and burn the contents of the ISO to your CD. You can then use this for > > the purpose you intend. > > Since Steven is probably already running Windows, there's also a free > powertoy utility from Microsoft that will burn an ISO. FYI. > > -John > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From jwreese0 at comcast.net Mon Feb 19 20:53:15 2007 From: jwreese0 at comcast.net (John Reese) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 20:53:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Trouble connecting Samba BDC to Samba 3 domain PDC Message-ID: <1171939995.4502.50.camel@jupiter.lowbrau.net> I'm having trouble connecting a Samba BDC to a Samba 3 PDC. I attempted to join using the following commands: net rpc join net rpc join -S -Uroot net rpc join bdc -S -Uroot Each time I get an error report of some kind, usually: "Create of workstation account failed Unable to join domain ." Or, more frequently: "[2007/02/19 18:02:04, 0] utils/net_rpc_join.c:net_rpc_join_newstyle(319) Error domain join verification (reused connection): NT_STATUS_ACCESS_DENIED" I check, and sure enough,there is a disabled machine account. Running pdbedit -Lw \$ I find: "$:504:XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX:[DS ]:LCT-00000000:" I check the join with "net rpc testjoin" and confirm that that join did not work: "[2007/02/19 20:44:05, 0] utils/net_rpc_join.c:net_rpc_join_ok(66) Join to domain '' is not valid" In addition to running net commands from the BDC, I have also attempted to edit the account database on the PDC with pdbedit. I have tried to create account entries with several different flag types. Here's an example: "pdbedit -a -m -u -c "[W]"" or "pdbedit -a -m -u -c "[S]"" These commands fail: "[root at massive samba]# pdbedit -a -m -u -c "S" tdb_update_sam: SAM_ACCOUNT (BDC name) with no RID! Unable to add machine! (does it already exist?)" No, it does not exist, as I confirmed with: "pdbedit -Lw \$", which reports that no such machine account exists. I also checked with "pdbedit -L" and checked for the BDC name in /etc/passwd and /etc/group. The smb.conf files on both the BDC and PDC probably are correct. I was able to reproduce these errors using BDC and PDC config files copied directly from "Samba 3 By Example" Has anybody else encountered this problem? John Reese From bhartm at visi.com Mon Feb 19 23:08:27 2007 From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann) Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:08:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disposal of CRTs and boards in Ramsey Co. Message-ID: <45DA824B.2080400@visi.com> Anyone know where I can drop unwanted circuit boards and dead monitors in St Paul? Since y'all won't take my cases and parts of mass destruction, who will? One more chance, though, for these probably working relics: * Apple][+ * Commodore 64 * Zenith 8088 XT (2 floppy drives!) * amber mono monitor with mesh overlay (composite jack only) From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com Tue Feb 20 09:32:11 2007 From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John Trammell) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 09:32:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disposal of CRTs and boards in Ramsey Co. In-Reply-To: <45DA824B.2080400@visi.com> References: <45DA824B.2080400@visi.com> Message-ID: <20070220153211.GA23361@mail.el-swifto.com> On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 11:08:27PM -0600, Bob Hartmann wrote: > Anyone know where I can drop unwanted circuit boards and dead monitors > in St Paul? Since y'all won't take my cases and parts of mass > destruction, who will? > > One more chance, though, for these probably working relics: > > * Apple][+ > * Commodore 64 > * Zenith 8088 XT (2 floppy drives!) > * amber mono monitor with mesh overlay (composite jack only) Zero chance of me wanting any of that, but Materials Processing (http://materialsprocessing.com/) will dispose of it for you for a reasonable fee. I don't know of anyone who will take it for fre. -- trammell at el-swifto.com 9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58 FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5 Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG) Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 10:00:29 2007 From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:00:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disposal of CRTs and boards in Ramsey Co. In-Reply-To: <20070220153211.GA23361@mail.el-swifto.com> References: <45DA824B.2080400@visi.com> <20070220153211.GA23361@mail.el-swifto.com> Message-ID: On 2/20/07, John Trammell wrote: > On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 11:08:27PM -0600, Bob Hartmann wrote: > > Anyone know where I can drop unwanted circuit boards and dead monitors > > in St Paul? Since y'all won't take my cases and parts of mass > > destruction, who will? > > > > One more chance, though, for these probably working relics: > > > > * Apple][+ > > * Commodore 64 > > * Zenith 8088 XT (2 floppy drives!) > > * amber mono monitor with mesh overlay (composite jack only) > > Zero chance of me wanting any of that, but Materials Processing > (http://materialsprocessing.com/) will dispose of it for you for a > reasonable fee. I don't know of anyone who will take it for fre. > Have you checked with the county? I know Hennepin county has several days where they accept things like this free of charge for county residents. I dropped off some old electronics there last year. -- jonner From cschumann at twp-llc.com Tue Feb 20 10:20:21 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:20:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] disposal of CRTs and boards in Ramsey Co. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2922.168.86.12.2.1171988421.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> > Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 23:08:27 -0600 > From: Bob Hartmann > One more chance, though, for these probably working relics: > > * Apple][+ > * Commodore 64 > * Zenith 8088 XT (2 floppy drives!) > * amber mono monitor with mesh overlay (composite jack only) ?!? The first three will sell on eBay and someone will pay you to ship it to them. The monitor... well you'll have to pay to have that recycled with the lead in it. BTW - If you've got Ultima Trilogy I, II, III for Apple II, it went on eBay for $104.50 recently. From jwreese0 at comcast.net Tue Feb 20 10:38:02 2007 From: jwreese0 at comcast.net (John Reese) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:38:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disposal of CRTs and boards in Ramsey Co Message-ID: <1171989482.7127.3.camel@jupiter.lowbrau.net> Vasko Disposal in St. Paul is the site where I 'sunset' all my redundant equipment. Disposal costs vary by part. Circuit boards are fairly cheap, but CRTs used to be pretty expensive. Call 'em and check out their prices: (651) 487-8546 They are located at: 309 Como Avenue St. Paul 55103 John Reese From cncole at earthlink.net Tue Feb 20 10:51:18 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:51:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] disposal of CRTs and boards in Ramsey Co. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jonathon Jongsma > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 10:00 AM > > On 2/20/07, John Trammell wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 19, 2007 at 11:08:27PM -0600, Bob Hartmann wrote: > > > Anyone know where I can drop unwanted circuit boards and > dead monitors > > > in St Paul? Since y'all won't take my cases and parts of mass > > > destruction, who will? > > > > > Zero chance of me wanting any of that, but Materials Processing > > (http://materialsprocessing.com/) will dispose of it for you for a > > reasonable fee. I don't know of anyone who will take it for fre. > > > > Have you checked with the county? I know Hennepin county has several > days where they accept things like this free of charge for county > residents. I dropped off some old electronics there last year. CompUSA and maybe others occasionally run a free drop-off in the front of their stores just to get walk-ins, upgrades, and extra buying. I haven't seen one announced in a while, but I don't see weekly ads any more either. If anybody spots another of these, please post here! Chuck From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 20 13:29:49 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:29:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? Message-ID: Maybe it changes day to day, but is there a local place that usually has really good prices on CD-R and DVD+-R media? I have the impression that prices are extremely volatile -- changing by a factor of two or so across time and across brands. Mike From jkjones at tcq.net Tue Feb 20 13:44:25 2007 From: jkjones at tcq.net (Kraig Jones) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 13:44:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Mike Miller wrote: > Maybe it changes day to day, but is there a local place that usually has > really good prices on CD-R and DVD+-R media? It changes weekly. I usually watch the Office Depot, OfficeMax, and Target ads in the Sunday paper and stock up when there's a sale. Kraig From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 20 14:34:16 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:34:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Kraig Jones wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: >> Maybe it changes day to day, but is there a local place that usually has >> really good prices on CD-R and DVD+-R media? > > It changes weekly. I usually watch the Office Depot, OfficeMax, and > Target ads in the Sunday paper and stock up when there's a sale. Thanks for the tip. I have gotten really good deals at Office Max or Office Depot but I hadn't thought about Target. I also got some great prices once at CompUSA. It is strange how unpredictable and wildly variable the prices are. Mike From cncole at earthlink.net Tue Feb 20 14:55:20 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:55:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 2:34 PM > > On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Kraig Jones wrote: > > > Mike Miller wrote: > >> Maybe it changes day to day, but is there a local place > that usually has > >> really good prices on CD-R and DVD+-R media? > > > > It changes weekly. I usually watch the Office Depot, > OfficeMax, and > > Target ads in the Sunday paper and stock up when there's a sale. > > Thanks for the tip. I have gotten really good deals at Office Max or > Office Depot but I hadn't thought about Target. I also got > some great > prices once at CompUSA. > > It is strange how unpredictable and wildly variable the prices are. Include Micro Center in the watch. The always have a sale, but sometimes it's for premium brand media. Also, OfficeMax, Office Depot will match an advertised price and may only have name brand top stuff to provide at the matched price. Dunno about Target doing matching or CompUSA using premium name brands to match. Chuck From marc at e-skinner.net Tue Feb 20 14:54:44 2007 From: marc at e-skinner.net (marc at e-skinner.net) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 14:54:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Message-ID: <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> Microcenter is also great. Goto www.microcenter.com to sign up for there monthly sales flyers. Quoting Mike Miller : > On Tue, 20 Feb 2007, Kraig Jones wrote: > >> Mike Miller wrote: >>> Maybe it changes day to day, but is there a local place that usually has >>> really good prices on CD-R and DVD+-R media? >> >> It changes weekly. I usually watch the Office Depot, OfficeMax, and >> Target ads in the Sunday paper and stock up when there's a sale. > > Thanks for the tip. I have gotten really good deals at Office Max or > Office Depot but I hadn't thought about Target. I also got some great > prices once at CompUSA. > > It is strange how unpredictable and wildly variable the prices are. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From jkjones at tcq.net Tue Feb 20 15:53:16 2007 From: jkjones at tcq.net (Kraig Jones) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:53:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> Message-ID: <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> marc at e-skinner.net wrote: > Microcenter is also great. Goto www.microcenter.com to sign up for > there monthly sales flyers. > I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for personal information every time I buy any little thing like a stack of CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give them my phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly it's just the principle of the value of my privacy. Kraig From cncole at earthlink.net Tue Feb 20 16:18:14 2007 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:18:14 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> Message-ID: They won't insist. I tell them I'm already on the mailing list and leave it at that. They don't need a phone number to send sales info. I like to get their flyers, but don't get anything else. Chuck > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Kraig Jones > Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2007 3:53 PM > > marc at e-skinner.net wrote: > > Microcenter is also great. Goto www.microcenter.com to > sign up for > > there monthly sales flyers. > > > I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for > personal information every time I buy any little thing like a > stack of > CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to > give them my > phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly it's just > the principle of the value of my privacy. > > Kraig > From rhavenn at rhavenn.net Tue Feb 20 16:09:06 2007 From: rhavenn at rhavenn.net (Henrik Hudson) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:09:06 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> References: <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> Message-ID: <200702201609.07013.rhavenn@rhavenn.net> On Tuesday 20 February 2007 15:53, Kraig Jones sent a missive stating: > marc at e-skinner.net wrote: > > Microcenter is also great. Goto www.microcenter.com to sign up for > > there monthly sales flyers. > > I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for > personal information every time I buy any little thing like a stack of > CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give them my > phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly it's just > the principle of the value of my privacy. Yeah, I'll give them my zipcode, but that's it. I've flat out told the guy no, you are not getting my info. Of course, I still get flyers addressed to me from them anyway, so they either look it up via CC info or just from the standard marketing analysis garbage. Henrik -- Henrik Hudson rhavenn at rhavenn.net ------------------------------ "Law is not justice, legal is not right and illegal is not wrong." "There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't..." From russianhippie666 at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 16:52:39 2007 From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:52:39 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <200702201609.07013.rhavenn@rhavenn.net> References: <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> <200702201609.07013.rhavenn@rhavenn.net> Message-ID: <6f6d54f70702201452w4d914d6bka31552d64c9ad070@mail.gmail.com> yep same here but one of those flyers isn't all that bad once in a while, i mean sometimes they have some stuff that i need On 2/20/07, Henrik Hudson wrote: > > On Tuesday 20 February 2007 15:53, Kraig Jones sent a > missive stating: > > marc at e-skinner.net wrote: > > > Microcenter is also great. Goto www.microcenter.com to sign up for > > > there monthly sales flyers. > > > > I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for > > personal information every time I buy any little thing like a stack of > > CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give them my > > phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly it's just > > the principle of the value of my privacy. > > Yeah, I'll give them my zipcode, but that's it. I've flat out told the guy > no, > you are not getting my info. Of course, I still get flyers addressed to me > from them anyway, so they either look it up via CC info or just from the > standard marketing analysis garbage. > > Henrik > -- > Henrik Hudson > rhavenn at rhavenn.net > ------------------------------ > "Law is not justice, legal is not right and illegal is not wrong." > > "There are 10 kinds of people in the world: Those who > understand binary and those who don't..." > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070220/ccf4a09c/attachment-0001.htm From esper at sherohman.org Tue Feb 20 16:54:42 2007 From: esper at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 16:54:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> Message-ID: <20070220225442.GC30266@genma.sherohman.org> On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 03:53:16PM -0600, Kraig Jones wrote: > For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give them my > phone number and address to get more junk mail. So don't. I usually just say "no" when they ask and they don't hassle me about it. Then there was the time that I was feeling a little ornery and gave my name as "Alfred Nonymous"... Took the guy a minute to catch on, then he just cancelled entering my name and went on without asking for any of my other info. -- Windows Vista must be the first OS in history to have error codes for things like "display quality too high" - Peter Gutmann, "A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection" http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html From florin at iucha.net Tue Feb 20 18:28:47 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 18:28:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <200702201609.07013.rhavenn@rhavenn.net> References: <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> <200702201609.07013.rhavenn@rhavenn.net> Message-ID: <20070221002847.GL29073@iucha.net> On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 04:09:06PM -0600, Henrik Hudson wrote: > On Tuesday 20 February 2007 15:53, Kraig Jones sent a > missive stating: > > I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for > > personal information every time I buy any little thing like a stack of > > CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give them my > > phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly it's just > > the principle of the value of my privacy. > > Yeah, I'll give them my zipcode, but that's it. I've flat out told the guy no, > you are not getting my info. Of course, I still get flyers addressed to me > from them anyway, so they either look it up via CC info or just from the > standard marketing analysis garbage. I was surprised, when I bought something for the very first time, that they told me my address, to verify it... Resistance is futile... florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070220/29aee157/attachment.pgp From bhartm at visi.com Tue Feb 20 19:37:27 2007 From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 19:37:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <20070221002847.GL29073@iucha.net> References: <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> <200702201609.07013.rhavenn@rhavenn.net> <20070221002847.GL29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: <45DBA257.1070708@visi.com> Florin Iucha wrote: > On Tue, Feb 20, 2007 at 04:09:06PM -0600, Henrik Hudson wrote: > >> On Tuesday 20 February 2007 15:53, Kraig Jones sent a >> missive stating: >> >>> I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for >>> personal information every time I buy any little thing like a stack of >>> CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give them my >>> phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly it's just >>> the principle of the value of my privacy. >>> >> Yeah, I'll give them my zipcode, but that's it. I've flat out told the guy no, >> you are not getting my info. Of course, I still get flyers addressed to me >> from them anyway, so they either look it up via CC info or just from the >> standard marketing analysis garbage. >> > > I was surprised, when I bought something for the very first time, that > they told me my address, to verify it... Resistance is futile... > > florin > Remember the guy at Radio Shack writing down all your info on a form when you went in to buy a battery? Even when I was 12, I thought it was cult-ish. You'd think a "high-tech" place like MC would be satisfied with just spamming the hell out you. Their mailers are way too big and too frequent. What was the topic? Ps. Thanks everyone for the Ramsey County disposal info. I used to live in Bloomington. dang. My vintage 'puters are spoken for. Who wants a box of IDE drives? (Ohh, man, there I go... change the subject and email me off list.) From admin at lctn.org Tue Feb 20 21:10:55 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:10:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] php path Message-ID: <2178.64.8.148.7.1172027455.squirrel@lctn.org> Anyone know what the path to php is supposed to be on an Ubuntu 6.10 box with php5? I keep getting the following error, no matter what I use: bad interpreter: Permission denied This is after sudo su Raymond -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From s.earl.martin at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 21:31:19 2007 From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:31:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] php path In-Reply-To: <2178.64.8.148.7.1172027455.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <2178.64.8.148.7.1172027455.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: It should be /usr/bin/php. What does "which php" say? sm On 2/20/07, admin wrote: > Anyone know what the path to php is supposed to be on an Ubuntu 6.10 box > with php5? I keep getting the following error, no matter what I use: > > bad interpreter: Permission denied > > This is after sudo su > From admin at lctn.org Tue Feb 20 21:36:54 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:36:54 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] php path In-Reply-To: References: <2178.64.8.148.7.1172027455.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <2464.64.8.148.7.1172029014.squirrel@lctn.org> > It should be /usr/bin/php. What does "which php" say? > That is what I expected, but it's not working. "which php" gives me nothing. Just goes to the prompt once executed. -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From s.earl.martin at gmail.com Tue Feb 20 21:47:01 2007 From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:47:01 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] php path In-Reply-To: <2464.64.8.148.7.1172029014.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <2178.64.8.148.7.1172027455.squirrel@lctn.org> <2464.64.8.148.7.1172029014.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: Are you sure you have the php-cli (or whatever it is for php5... I don't have an Ubuntu box in front of me at the moment) package installed? sm On 2/20/07, admin wrote: > > It should be /usr/bin/php. What does "which php" say? > > > > That is what I expected, but it's not working. > > > "which php" gives me nothing. Just goes to the prompt once executed. > From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 20 21:52:42 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:52:42 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] php path In-Reply-To: <2464.64.8.148.7.1172029014.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <2178.64.8.148.7.1172027455.squirrel@lctn.org> <2464.64.8.148.7.1172029014.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 20 Feb 2007 admin at lctn.org wrote: >> It should be /usr/bin/php. What does "which php" say? > > That is what I expected, but it's not working. > > > "which php" gives me nothing. Just goes to the prompt once executed. Sometimes "whereis php" will do better for you than "which php", but you might not have php installed. Mike From admin at lctn.org Tue Feb 20 22:02:12 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:02:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] php path In-Reply-To: References: <2178.64.8.148.7.1172027455.squirrel@lctn.org><2464.64.8.148.7.1172029014.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <2685.64.8.148.7.1172030532.squirrel@lctn.org> > Are you sure you have the php-cli (or whatever it is for php5... I > don't have an Ubuntu box in front of me at the moment) package > installed? > > sm > That was the problem. Thanks -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From marc at e-skinner.net Tue Feb 20 22:45:50 2007 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 22:45:50 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> Message-ID: <45DBCE7E.5060609@e-skinner.net> you can decline to give them your information - if you so desire :) Kraig Jones wrote: > marc at e-skinner.net wrote: > >> Microcenter is also great. Goto www.microcenter.com to sign up for >> there monthly sales flyers. >> >> > I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for > personal information every time I buy any little thing like a stack of > CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give them my > phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly it's just > the principle of the value of my privacy. > > Kraig > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From jkjones at tcq.net Wed Feb 21 07:34:21 2007 From: jkjones at tcq.net (Kraig Jones) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:34:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DBCE7E.5060609@e-skinner.net> References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> <45DBCE7E.5060609@e-skinner.net> Message-ID: <45DC4A5D.70009@tcq.net> I know that, and I do decline. But it's tiresome being asked every time, and there have been times when they don't seem to want to take No for an answer. Radio Shack eventually got the message. When will Microcenter? Kraig Marc Skinner wrote: > you can decline to give them your information - if you so desire :) > > Kraig Jones wrote: >> marc at e-skinner.net wrote: >> >>> Microcenter is also great. Goto www.microcenter.com to sign up for >>> there monthly sales flyers. >>> >> I don't much like Microcenter. I don't care for them asking for >> personal information every time I buy any little thing like a stack >> of CDs. For saving a few pennies, it's not worth it to me to give >> them my phone number and address to get more junk mail. But mainly >> it's just the principle of the value of my privacy. >> >> Kraig >> From dniesen at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 07:43:42 2007 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:43:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? Message-ID: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> Anybody know where I can find some SIP phones locally? I've dug around all of the usual computer suspects but they only seem to carry Vonage/Earthlink VoIP analog adapters. I have a TrixBox that is itching for some call activity. -- Donovan Niesen From florin at iucha.net Wed Feb 21 08:02:17 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 08:02:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DC4A5D.70009@tcq.net> References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> <20070220145444.n05iglkqsg8o8088@webmail.littlebirdtech.com> <45DB6DCC.5090401@tcq.net> <45DBCE7E.5060609@e-skinner.net> <45DC4A5D.70009@tcq.net> Message-ID: <20070221140217.GM29073@iucha.net> On Wed, Feb 21, 2007 at 07:34:21AM -0600, Kraig Jones wrote: > I know that, and I do decline. But it's tiresome being asked every > time, and there have been times when they don't seem to want to take No > for an answer. Radio Shack eventually got the message. When will > Microcenter? For all Radio Shack knows, I'm visiting and staying in a Super 8 motel "uhm... that way" 8^) florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/25bddbf9/attachment.pgp From swaite at sbn-services.com Wed Feb 21 10:14:53 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? Message-ID: I must admit I am little too ignorant when it comes to how the GPL license works for using Linux. My general assumption was that if I made a Linux distrobution I would be required to make the source code available. Now I remember catching a short article a year back on OSnews.com about some distro that got into some problem or whatever for not doing this. So here is my question. Recently I was looking at a Cisco IDS sensor which uses Linux as its OS. I see now that more and more Cisco is relying on Linux to provide their devices with some sort of OS. Actually this is how I came to this mailing list a couple years back. I had some ACNS units that I was going to write off the books and see about using them as either NAS or Linux based firewalls. These were way beyond my skills, and I think many due to their extremely proprietary design. Of course if the source code was freely available I am sure there would be a few out their that would have easily modified these. Now the IDS units are nothing more than regular servers. In fact I was able to use the recovery CD in VMware to install the IDS software, i.e. this is just regular old Linux, modified to fit Cisco's needs. Now they are not the only company doing this. So, then the question is, don't these companies have to make readily available the source code to what they have done? Generally they are not selling the OS, just a subscription or support. But to get the actual software you have to purchase a support contract, which to me seems like they are in fact selling it. Sean Waite -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/cf52981b/attachment.htm From swaite at sbn-services.com Wed Feb 21 10:48:47 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:48:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Message-ID: >Include Micro Center in the watch. The always have a sale, but > sometimes it's for premium brand media. > > Also, OfficeMax, Office Depot will match an advertised price and may > only have name brand top stuff to provide at the matched price. Dunno > about Target doing matching or CompUSA using premium name brands to > match. > > > Chuck I have purchased almost exclusively from Microcenter for the past couple years now CD/DVD+R due to their significantly lower price. The last time I was there a few weeks back they seemed to no longer carry them, but I have been buying a 50-pack of Philips DVD+R 8x for $14 now for some time. This while most places were selling them at $30-40. In fact a year or so ago Circuit City had the same item for $20 more. Just last weekend I had to stop in at Costco to pick something up for someone else. Personally I find Costco to be a complete rip-off. While I was there I saw 50-pack of DVD+Rs for around $40-50. Sure Microcenter asks for your info, but then again who doesn't these days. Sean Waite -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/7cd58da3/attachment.htm From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 11:53:20 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 11:53:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] ISO file In-Reply-To: <022020070210.11539.45DA58A40003893A00002D1322007636920B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> References: <022020070210.11539.45DA58A40003893A00002D1322007636920B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> Message-ID: <101e49ea0702210953nd30fb73l90f6cafa60579e31@mail.gmail.com> Thanks for posting this, you just made my job at work a LOT easier, since they won't pay for burning software for my local PC (and I have a burner, go figure). So we always have to run to our operations center to have them burn CDs for us.... - Joey On 2/19/07, auditodd at comcast.net wrote: > > My personal favorite CD/DVD burning utility for Windows is DeepBurner. > > There is a free version, a pro version, and a portable version. > > I've been using it for years and find it invaluable. > > -- > ========== > Todd Young > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > From: "John T. Hoffoss" > > On 2/19/07, Josh Welch wrote: > > > An ISO file is just an image of a CD/DVD, as you've found burning an > > > ISO file to a CD provides no value. What you will need to do is use a > > > CD Burning utility which can open an ISO file, i.e. Nero or similar, > > > and burn the contents of the ISO to your CD. You can then use this for > > > the purpose you intend. > > > > Since Steven is probably already running Windows, there's also a free > > powertoy utility from Microsoft that will burn an ISO. FYI. > > > > -John > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/6dcff18f/attachment-0001.htm From robbyt at robbyt.net Wed Feb 21 12:07:07 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:07:07 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f663090702211007t65cdda86ud6d6773a4d7a7615@mail.gmail.com> atacomm.com On 2/21/07, Donovan Niesen wrote: > Anybody know where I can find some SIP phones locally? I've dug > around all of the usual computer suspects but they only seem to carry > Vonage/Earthlink VoIP analog adapters. > > I have a TrixBox that is itching for some call activity. > > -- > Donovan Niesen > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From swaite at sbn-services.com Wed Feb 21 12:04:20 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:04:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: What phones are you looking for? Are you looking to find new or used? There are no stores locally that I can think of that do retail, but there are a few equipment brokers and resellers that would have something like Cisco or Avaya models locally. Sean Waite -----Original Message----- From: "Donovan Niesen" To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:43:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? Anybody know where I can find some SIP phones locally? I've dug around all of the usual computer suspects but they only seem to carry Vonage/Earthlink VoIP analog adapters. I have a TrixBox that is itching for some call activity. -- Donovan Niesen _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/7ff9ba7f/attachment.htm From cschumann at twp-llc.com Wed Feb 21 12:23:41 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:23:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <10362.168.86.12.2.1172082221.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0600 > From: "Sean Waite" > So, then the question is, don't these companies have to make readily > available the source code to what they have done? Generally they are not > selling the OS, just a subscription or support. But to get the actual > software you have to purchase a support contract, which to me seems like > they are in fact selling it. Yes they do. And Cisco apparently keeps getting in trouble for not making their modified source available. Just enter cisco linux gpl into Google and on the first page are articles from 2003 and 2007. Chris From robbyt at robbyt.net Wed Feb 21 12:26:56 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:26:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? In-Reply-To: References: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f663090702211026r4dd37dc4oca87d9ad9eba682c@mail.gmail.com> Atacomm lets me do pickups from their warehouse in maple grove. On 2/21/07, Sean Waite wrote: > > > What phones are you looking for? Are you looking to find new or used? There > are no stores locally that I can think of that do retail, but there are a > few equipment brokers and resellers that would have something like Cisco or > Avaya models locally. > > > Sean Waite > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Donovan Niesen" > To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:43:42 -0600 > Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? > > > Anybody know where I can find some SIP phones locally? I've dug > around all of the usual computer suspects but they only seem to carry > Vonage/Earthlink VoIP analog adapters. > > I have a TrixBox that is itching for some call activity. > > -- > Donovan Niesen > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Feb 21 12:29:16 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:29:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] where to buy CD-R and DVD-R or DVD+R locally? In-Reply-To: References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Sean Waite wrote: > I have purchased almost exclusively from Microcenter for the past couple > years now CD/DVD+R due to their significantly lower price. The last time > I was there a few weeks back they seemed to no longer carry them, but I > have been buying a 50-pack of Philips DVD+R 8x for $14 now for some > time. This while most places were selling them at $30-40. In fact a year > or so ago Circuit City had the same item for $20 more. I do need to get some DVD+R disks for my laptop because that's all it can handle. Everything else I own does both + and -. I know what you mean about prices. It is really a strange phenomenon. Not many products show that kind of variability across time/place, especially not something as fungible as disks -- it should work more like gasoline. What's up with that? I have heard that MPAA and RIAA have had some involvement in manipulating media prices, but I don't know about that. Something is odd though. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Feb 21 12:40:46 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:40:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Costco prices In-Reply-To: References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Sean Waite wrote: > Just last weekend I had to stop in at Costco to pick something up for > someone else. Personally I find Costco to be a complete rip-off. While I > was there I saw 50-pack of DVD+Rs for around $40-50. This is somewhat OT, thus the new thread. I just want to say that Costco gives great prices on some things. When I got married a couple of years ago I researched booze prices and bought a bunch of bottles for the wedding. Costco beat everyone else in town, usually by a fairly substantial margin. On most days their gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else I know of (often by about $0.10/gal), but I'm not sure that's consistent. One of the ways that Costco and Sam's club make their money is by selling some items at ordinary prices -- sometimes even higher than those at the grocery store. The other more obvious approach is to buy massive amounts of smaller numbers of items. If you don't have a stand-alone freezer or plenty of storage room, it might not be so great to shop at Costco. There is no doubt in my mind that I save plenty at Costco by buying the right things in large quantities. I just ignore most of the stuff in Costco -- it isn't a good place for impulse purchases of big-ticket items. Apparently, it isn't a good place to buy DVD+R media. Mike From swaite at sbn-services.com Wed Feb 21 12:44:55 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:44:55 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? In-Reply-To: <1f663090702211026r4dd37dc4oca87d9ad9eba682c@mail.gmail.com> References: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> <1f663090702211026r4dd37dc4oca87d9ad9eba682c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Wow! I never knew they were in Maple Grove. I have never seen them listed in any broker/network equipment re-seller listings. They are somewhat pricey, but then again buying online just means you have to pay for shipping. Sean Waite -----Original Message----- From: "Rob Terhaar" To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:26:56 -0600 Subject: Re: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? Atacomm lets me do pickups from their warehouse in maple grove. On 2/21/07, Sean Waite wrote: > > > What phones are you looking for? Are you looking to find new or used? There > are no stores locally that I can think of that do retail, but there are a > few equipment brokers and resellers that would have something like Cisco or > Avaya models locally. > > > Sean Waite > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: "Donovan Niesen" > To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 07:43:42 -0600 > Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? > > > Anybody know where I can find some SIP phones locally? I've dug > around all of the usual computer suspects but they only seem to carry > Vonage/Earthlink VoIP analog adapters. > > I have a TrixBox that is itching for some call activity. > > -- > Donovan Niesen > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] > > _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/705f139e/attachment-0001.htm From auditodd at comcast.net Wed Feb 21 13:11:29 2007 From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:11:29 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] ISO file Message-ID: <022120071911.1896.45DC9961000C015A0000076822007347480B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> I especially like the portable version (and PortableApps.com). No install/uninstall issues when a new version comes out. Simply nuke the old folder and unzip the new one and start using it and you can run it from a USB drive. For the Solitaire fans out there, Pysol has a Windows port. Once you install it on a Windows PC, simply grab the install folder and dump it on your USB drive and run the executable. Fully functional. In fact, after the first install, you could simply zip up the folder and use that to "install" the program on other Windows PCs. Yeah, yeah, I know Windows apps on a Linux forum..... Sorry, but I really do have one foot stuck in reality. Windows and Linux coexist quite nicely in my world. :-) (But Vista was stillborn in my opinion.) -- ========== Todd Young -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Joey Rockhold" > Thanks for posting this, you just made my job at work a LOT easier, since > they won't pay for burning software for my local PC (and I have a burner, go > figure). So we always have to run to our operations center to have them > burn CDs for us.... > > - Joey > > On 2/19/07, auditodd at comcast.net wrote: > > > > My personal favorite CD/DVD burning utility for Windows is DeepBurner. > > > > There is a free version, a pro version, and a portable version. > > > > I've been using it for years and find it invaluable. > > > > -- > > ========== > > Todd Young > > > > -------------- Original message ---------------------- > > From: "John T. Hoffoss" > > > On 2/19/07, Josh Welch wrote: > > > > An ISO file is just an image of a CD/DVD, as you've found burning an > > > > ISO file to a CD provides no value. What you will need to do is use a > > > > CD Burning utility which can open an ISO file, i.e. Nero or similar, > > > > and burn the contents of the ISO to your CD. You can then use this for > > > > the purpose you intend. > > > > > > Since Steven is probably already running Windows, there's also a free > > > powertoy utility from Microsoft that will burn an ISO. FYI. > > > > > > -John > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Joey Rockhold" Subject: Re: [tclug-list] ISO file Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 17:53:20 +0000 Size: 3009 Url: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/480335df/attachment.eml From swaite at sbn-services.com Wed Feb 21 13:06:28 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:06:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Costco prices In-Reply-To: References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Message-ID: A couple of years ago I had a strange coincidence regarding a plasma screen TV. My company is a reseller, as such we of course purchase wholesale direct from distributors. I got an e-mail from one of my distributors with a price list containing this certain TV, don't remember the make and model though. for $1100. Later that evening I had to go to Costco where I saw this same plasma screen fro $380 more. This distrib, PCW, generally is not known for great prices in regards to items such as plasma screen TVs. As I looked around, I saw everything from hard drives to mice that could be had for cheaper. And I do not mean just wholesale, but even retail. FYI, just for those that might not be familiar with how wholesale distribution works, it is all based upon extreme mass volume. With that said, items really are not marked down that much. In fact most of the time when I need to purchase a switch I go through a separate broker who has excess quantity to get rid of rather than a distrib. Now with that under consideration I just do not see how Costco could sell themselves as such a great savings when in fact they were marking up way too much. Maybe I am wrong, but I always thought the point to Costco and Sams was wholesale prices, where by they making their money off of charging you to just shop there. Now mind you I am not a Costco fan at all, it was my mother who put my wife on her account because at the time my wife believed that by buying enough meat to supply the whole British army, we would save money. I think most stores do what you said, they drop prices below retail just to get you in the door. I have no doubt that Microcenter uses this as a strategy against Best Buy and CompUSA, who do not have the best prices anyways. Thank god for Pricegrabber and other search engines, it is amazing how much you can save by NOT going to places like Best Buy, CompUSA, etc.. Sean Waite -----Original Message----- From: Mike Miller To: TCLUG List Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:40:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Costco prices On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Sean Waite wrote: > Just last weekend I had to stop in at Costco to pick something up for > someone else. Personally I find Costco to be a complete rip-off. While I > was there I saw 50-pack of DVD+Rs for around $40-50. This is somewhat OT, thus the new thread. I just want to say that Costco gives great prices on some things. When I got married a couple of years ago I researched booze prices and bought a bunch of bottles for the wedding. Costco beat everyone else in town, usually by a fairly substantial margin. On most days their gasoline is cheaper than anywhere else I know of (often by about $0.10/gal), but I'm not sure that's consistent. One of the ways that Costco and Sam's club make their money is by selling some items at ordinary prices -- sometimes even higher than those at the grocery store. The other more obvious approach is to buy massive amounts of smaller numbers of items. If you don't have a stand-alone freezer or plenty of storage room, it might not be so great to shop at Costco. There is no doubt in my mind that I save plenty at Costco by buying the right things in large quantities. I just ignore most of the stuff in Costco -- it isn't a good place for impulse purchases of big-ticket items. Apparently, it isn't a good place to buy DVD+R media. Mike _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/8d2241bb/attachment.htm From tclug at natecarlson.com Wed Feb 21 13:27:20 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:27:20 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? In-Reply-To: References: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> <1f663090702211026r4dd37dc4oca87d9ad9eba682c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Sean Waite wrote: > Wow! I never knew they were in Maple Grove. I have never seen them > listed in any broker/network equipment re-seller listings. They are > somewhat pricey, but then again buying online just means you have to pay > for shipping. Their prices aren't too bad - they are about industry standard. Just not bottom dollar. They have a really good rep in the Asterisk community, too. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From swaite at sbn-services.com Wed Feb 21 13:28:04 2007 From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:28:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <10362.168.86.12.2.1172082221.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <10362.168.86.12.2.1172082221.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: Kind of funny, I did as you said and found an article "Cisco's iPhone violates GPL, expert says" - http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;435863114;fp;4194304;fpid;1 While Cisco is complaining about Apple using their trademark on the Cisco iPhone, Cisco is in turn infringing on the GPL....interesting. Basically it is as I suspected, Cisco has found a great revenue stream. Get the Linux geeks to write, update, manage,etc. the OS, and they can come in and spend less time just modifying it than actually having to write their own OS/IOS. Now does the GPL work like this. Since they are using the Linux OS, and modifying to suit their specific needs, couldn't I take their own source code and use it for my own? Meaning take the source for the ACNS units and release my own Linux Application and Content networking distro so long as it does not contain other license code such as Websense? p.s. Of course this is all in theory, I don't know a (#*@ thing about code, except for what I learned way back when on the Radio Shack TSR-80 Sean Waite Sean Waite -----Original Message----- From: "Chris Schumann" To: Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:23:41 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0600 > From: "Sean Waite" > So, then the question is, don't these companies have to make readily > available the source code to what they have done? Generally they are not > selling the OS, just a subscription or support. But to get the actual > software you have to purchase a support contract, which to me seems like > they are in fact selling it. Yes they do. And Cisco apparently keeps getting in trouble for not making their modified source available. Just enter cisco linux gpl into Google and on the first page are articles from 2003 and 2007. Chris _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/90c74774/attachment-0001.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Feb 21 14:29:44 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:29:44 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Costco prices In-Reply-To: References: <45DB4F99.50903@tcq.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Sean Waite wrote: > Maybe I am wrong, but I always thought the point to Costco and Sams was > wholesale prices, where by they making their money off of charging you > to just shop there. They might want people to think so, but many of their items sell for very ordinary prices. They do get some excellent deals, for sure, but you have to shop carefully there just as anywhere else. In the end, you have to ask yourself, am I saving enough to warrant the $50/year I'm paying for the priviledge of shopping here? And - is it worth it to drive all the way out here? It's a toss up for me. I'm still a member but I'm not sure that I'll renew. Mike From cschumann at twp-llc.com Wed Feb 21 14:59:22 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 14:59:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> If they modify the Linux kernel to do their tasks, then they must distribute that... as LinkSys eventually agreed to do on their wireless router before they re-designed and removed Linux from it. However, if they modified Linux just to get it to run on their box, they must distribute that. Any application they choose to write for that platform they can keep as closed as they like. Chris I suspect that they mod > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:28:04 -0600 > From: "Sean Waite" > Kind of funny, I > did as you said and found an article "Cisco's iPhone violates GPL, > expert says" - > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;435863114;fp;4194304;fpid;1 > > > While Cisco is complaining about Apple using their > trademark on the Cisco iPhone, Cisco is in turn infringing on the > GPL....interesting. > > Basically it is as I suspected, Cisco has found a great revenue stream. > Get the Linux geeks to write, update, manage,etc. the OS, and they can > come in and spend less time just modifying it than actually having to > write their own OS/IOS. > > Now does the > GPL work like this. Since they are using the Linux OS, and modifying to > suit > > their specific needs, couldn't I take their own source code and use it > for my own? Meaning take the source for the ACNS units and release my > own Linux Application and Content networking distro so long as it does > not contain other license code such as Websense? > p.s. Of course this is all in theory, I don't know > a (#*@ thing about code, except for what I learned way back when on the > Radio Shack TSR-80 > > Sean Waite > > > Sean Waite > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: "Chris Schumann" > > To: > > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:23:41 -0600 (CST) > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? > > > > >> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0600 > >> From: "Sean Waite" > > > >> So, then the question is, don't these companies have to make readily > >> available the source code to what they have done? Generally they are >> not > >> selling the OS, just a subscription or support. But to get the actual > >> software you have to purchase a support contract, which to me seems >> like > >> they are in fact selling it. > > > > Yes they do. And Cisco apparently keeps getting in trouble for not > making > > their modified source available. Just enter cisco linux gpl into Google > > and on the first page are articles from 2003 and 2007. > > > > Chris From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Wed Feb 21 18:50:30 2007 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:50:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <10362.168.86.12.2.1172082221.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: There's no perfect brief answer. In terms of the GPL2 (which is usually what you hear about), it works somewhat like this: I receive some software (X). With it, I get access to the source code (whether it gets mailed to me as a CD, is available for download, etc). While I am free to use the software unchanged, I am also able to make changes to the software. I can repackage, redistribute, even sell my resulting work; but I must pass along the same rights. The people I'm selling to must be granted access to the same source that I use and work with, and are to be allowed to create their own derivative works, etc. There's more to it than this, and it varies with other licenses, but that's the gist of it. -- Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070221/79983313/attachment.htm From auditodd at comcast.net Thu Feb 22 08:48:31 2007 From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:48:31 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? Message-ID: <022220071448.12394.45DDAD3F00087EF00000306A22070206530B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net> You know, that's something that has always bothered me about Linksys. They get caught with their hand in the cookie jar (so to speak) and instead of admitting they are wrong and playing the game fairly, they decide to quit the game and go away mad. Poor losers! I'm glad I prefer Netgear products. :-) -- ========== Todd Young -------------- Original message ---------------------- From: "Chris Schumann" > If they modify the Linux kernel to do their tasks, then they must > distribute that... as LinkSys eventually agreed to do on their wireless > router before they re-designed and removed Linux from it. > > However, if they modified Linux just to get it to run on their box, they > must distribute that. Any application they choose to write for that > platform they can keep as closed as they like. > > Chris From josh at tcbug.org Thu Feb 22 09:08:33 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:08:33 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> On Wednesday 21 February 2007 14:59, Chris Schumann wrote: > If they modify the Linux kernel to do their tasks, then they must > distribute that... as LinkSys eventually agreed to do on their > wireless router before they re-designed and removed Linux from it. > > However, if they modified Linux just to get it to run on their box, > they must distribute that. Any application they choose to write for > that platform they can keep as closed as they like. > > Chris > > > I suspect that they mod > > > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 13:28:04 -0600 > > From: "Sean Waite" > > > > Kind of funny, I > > did as you said and found an article "Cisco's iPhone violates > > GPL, expert says" - > > http://www.computerworld.com.au/index.php/id;435863114;fp;4194304 > >;fpid;1 > > > > > > While Cisco is complaining about Apple using their > > trademark on the Cisco iPhone, Cisco is in turn infringing on the > > GPL....interesting. > > > > Basically it is as I suspected, Cisco has found a great revenue > > stream. Get the Linux geeks to write, update, manage,etc. the > > OS, and they can come in and spend less time just modifying it > > than actually having to write their own OS/IOS. > > > > Now does the > > GPL work like this. Since they are using the Linux OS, and > > modifying to suit > > > > their specific needs, couldn't I take their own source code and > > use it for my own? Meaning take the source for the ACNS units > > and release my own Linux Application and Content networking > > distro so long as it does not contain other license code such as > > Websense? > > p.s. Of course this is all in theory, I don't know > > a (#*@ thing about code, except for what I learned way back when > > on the Radio Shack TSR-80 > > > > Sean Waite > > > > > > Sean Waite > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: "Chris Schumann" > > > > To: > > > > Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:23:41 -0600 (CST) > > > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? > > > >> Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:14:53 -0600 > >> > >> From: "Sean Waite" > >> > >> > >> > >> So, then the question is, don't these companies have to make > >> readily > >> > >> available the source code to what they have done? Generally they > >> are not > >> > >> selling the OS, just a subscription or support. But to get the > >> actual > >> > >> software you have to purchase a support contract, which to me > >> seems like > >> > >> they are in fact selling it. > > > > Yes they do. And Cisco apparently keeps getting in trouble for > > not making > > > > their modified source available. Just enter cisco linux gpl into > > Google > > > > and on the first page are articles from 2003 and 2007. > > > > > > > > Chris > It all comes down to 'distribution'. If you are going to take GPL'd software, modify it for your own purposes, and distribute it, then yes, to be in compliance with the licensing you must make your source code available. If you don't 'distribute' it then you are free from such restrictions. So some examples are in order. Let's take the case of google. They run a custom linux distribution on their servers, but it's not available for download....since they don't distribute it they are not compelled to make the source code available. How about cisco? Well, they don't distribute their software either. They sell devices that run their software. Let's take a look at the GPL itself: Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device here) your microwave. Can you get the source code for that, even though it's based on linux? Of course not. The manufacturer of the microwave isn't distributing their software, they are simply selling a device that runs their software. I suspect that a lot of the time when companies roll on this they are simply trying to avoid bad publicity and getting tied up in court even if they are bound to win in the end. Besides, who really cares at the end of the day if you have the source code to an application that only runs on custom ASICs in a cisco router? I'd guess cisco doesn't take the time to publish their changes because it's expensive to do so, not out of some desire to keep their proprietary changes to themselves. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From cschumann at twp-llc.com Thu Feb 22 09:34:52 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:34:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> References: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <27269.168.86.12.2.1172158492.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Josh Paetzel said: > How about cisco? Well, they don't distribute their software either. That's not at all obvious. I can see your point, but I disagree. From where I sit, a copy of their software is in every device they ship. It's not source, but that doesn't turn the software into something else. > How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device here) > your microwave. Can you get the source code for that, even though it's > based on linux? Of course not. You had better well be able to, if it indeed is based on Linux. That's the only license anyone can get to use Linux. > The manufacturer of the > microwave isn't distributing their software, they are simply selling a > device that runs their software. Again, I, and a lot of other people who know a lot more about this than both of us, disagree with you. > I suspect that a lot of the time when companies roll on this they are > simply trying to avoid bad publicity and getting tied up in court even > if they are bound to win in the end. I suspect you haven't read the press coverage on this. > Besides, who really cares at the > end of the day if you have the source code to an application that only > runs on custom ASICs in a cisco router? I do. Anyone who has put significant effort into GPLed software that gets used does. Cisco's competitors do. > I'd guess cisco doesn't take > the time to publish their changes because it's expensive to do so, not > out of some desire to keep their proprietary changes to themselves. It can be quite an expense. And if they put significant development into the software, they also have a large incentive to keep their proprietary information private. Software patents can be vague about how a company actually implements a technique. My guess (since we're guessing and I also don't really know how it happens) is that an engineer gets Linux brought in and brings up the requirements of using it; those responsibilities are detailed to his manager; it goes up the chain of command and someone (perhaps in the legal department) decides either to just not do it, or it's too expensive, or it's a potential legal liability. Chris From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 10:00:54 2007 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:00:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> References: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: I didn't realize that; I was under the impression that distribution of code (whether 'bundled' in hardware or not) was under the restrictions of the license. Otherwise, what's to prevent me from selling computers fully loaded with software and denying access to the source code using the same concepts? -- Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070222/c6783310/attachment.htm From josh at tcbug.org Thu Feb 22 10:35:08 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:35:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <200702221035.08585.josh@tcbug.org> On Thursday 22 February 2007 10:00, Jordan Peacock wrote: > I didn't realize that; I was under the impression that distribution > of code (whether 'bundled' in hardware or not) was under the > restrictions of the license. Otherwise, what's to prevent me from > selling computers fully loaded with software and denying access to > the source code using the same concepts? Because in the case of a computer you have access to the filesystems and binaries and can distribute them to other commodity devices. In the case of your microwave the only way to get the software off it is to remove the ROMs from the devices and use specialized hardware to get them off, and in the end you have a 'program' that will only run on their hardware. I'm not completely talking out my ass here yanno, I know several people that work in the embedded hardware industry and have investigated this pretty carefully. If this was an issue people wouldn't be doing it. If you think cisco is violating the law I'd like to see proof of it...such as a court case they've lost and had to pay out to someone. Or you can try and get a copy of the firmware in your microwave. More than willing to be proven wrong here..... -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 10:45:02 2007 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:45:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702221035.08585.josh@tcbug.org> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <200702221035.08585.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: I'd like to see that too. You've got me curious now. ;) For Sean: This article is well worth the read, and may help clear up some misconceptions: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20031214210634851 On 2/22/07, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > On Thursday 22 February 2007 10:00, Jordan Peacock wrote: > > I didn't realize that; I was under the impression that distribution > > of code (whether 'bundled' in hardware or not) was under the > > restrictions of the license. Otherwise, what's to prevent me from > > selling computers fully loaded with software and denying access to > > the source code using the same concepts? > > Because in the case of a computer you have access to the filesystems > and binaries and can distribute them to other commodity devices. In > the case of your microwave the only way to get the software off it is > to remove the ROMs from the devices and use specialized hardware to > get them off, and in the end you have a 'program' that will only run > on their hardware. > > I'm not completely talking out my ass here yanno, I know several > people that work in the embedded hardware industry and have > investigated this pretty carefully. If this was an issue people > wouldn't be doing it. > > If you think cisco is violating the law I'd like to see proof of > it...such as a court case they've lost and had to pay out to someone. > > Or you can try and get a copy of the firmware in your microwave. > > More than willing to be proven wrong here..... > > -- > Thanks, > > Josh Paetzel > -- Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070222/20a3af2e/attachment.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 11:08:10 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:08:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> References: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > How about cisco? Well, they don't distribute their software either. > They sell devices that run their software. Let's take a look at the GPL > itself: > > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of running > the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program is > covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the Program > (independent of having been made by running the Program). Whether that > is true depends on what the Program does. > > How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device here) your > microwave. Can you get the source code for that, even though it's based > on linux? Of course not. The manufacturer of the microwave isn't > distributing their software, they are simply selling a device that runs > their software. That is a surprising interpretation. I don't agree with it. By selling microwaves, the seller is *distributing* *copies* of the software encoded within it. The format is irrelevant -- HDD, firmware, floppy, CD, etc. Thus, because selling microwaves involved distributing and copying the modified GPL software, and not just running the programs, the software on the microwave (or other embedded devices) is covered by the GPL. If you have a source that contradicts my claim, please share it. Mike From tj at kewlness.net Thu Feb 22 11:34:40 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:34:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] GPL License (was:Linux, GPL, Source Code and Use) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DDD430.7070004@kewlness.net> The GPL license functions very simply when you get down to it. If you don't believe what I'm about to say, you are welcome to check with the FSF website, and they will tell you the same thing. As was mentioned it all comes down to distribution outside of the organization involved, and whether they are using the GPL or LGPL - which are different licenses. The GPL stipulates that if you modify GPL code and distribute it in any way outside of your organization, - source or binary, embedded or not - you must pass on the source code modifications to anyone who requests it under the GPL without additional restrictions. Now "requests it" does _not_ mean posting to the Internet, regardless of what everyone thinks. It simply means that if you give them a personal request for the code, they have to honour it, and turn over a copy of any changes they made. They are under no other obligations. If they don't, then they are in violation of the GPL, and the author of the original software can either in theory: terminate their license, or ask the FSF to intercede and try to negotiate a license settlement. In practice, the FSF prefers not to get involved unless absolutely necessary. They only have limited resources, and they can't put out every brushfire. The GPL works primarily because everyone agrees that it's a good idea. Cisco and other companies know this, and they also know that the chances you will actually request the code directly are slim. Distribution of code costs money, in bandwidth and server space. But there is no specific stipulation requiring Internet distribution, or that they even have to give you the code for free. They can charge you a reasonable amount for the time, shipping, and the distribution medium used. But once you have it, you can exercise any of the rights of the GPL including reposting and so on. Now if the code they are using is LGPL, rather than GPL, that's another animal. Unlike the GPL which requires that if code is intermingled by compiler linking, it must also be GPL'ed - the LGPL does not. So if they built an application on top of Linux, without modifying the Linux code, that's completely closed source, because the system libraries in Linux used by GCC are actually LGPL. But if they link it to any GPL code, then they would have to honour the GPL instead. Cheers! T.J. From cschumann at twp-llc.com Thu Feb 22 11:40:12 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:40:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? Message-ID: <2231.168.86.12.2.1172166012.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Here's a blog that does follow such court cases: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/linux/gpl-violations/ Here's a post from a few months ago: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/10/30/ And a quote from that page: "But to get to the main point of this entry: The results we see from GPL enforcement. I don't want to write about the legal results, since they have always been successful, in 100+ violations that I've been dealing with so far." So, over 100 violations acted on and *every* legal result is successful. That's why companies roll over. The most recent legal result was D-Link. http://gpl-violations.org/ tracks them too, but there seems to be no activity since that D-Link verdict last September. Chris Josh Paetzel josh at tcbug.org Thu Feb 22 10:35:08 CST 2007 Because in the case of a computer you have access to the filesystems and binaries and can distribute them to other commodity devices. In the case of your microwave the only way to get the software off it is to remove the ROMs from the devices and use specialized hardware to get them off, and in the end you have a 'program' that will only run on their hardware. I'm not completely talking out my ass here yanno, I know several people that work in the embedded hardware industry and have investigated this pretty carefully. If this was an issue people wouldn't be doing it. If you think cisco is violating the law I'd like to see proof of it...such as a court case they've lost and had to pay out to someone. Or you can try and get a copy of the firmware in your microwave. More than willing to be proven wrong here..... From cschumann at twp-llc.com Thu Feb 22 11:46:02 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:46:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Cisco and the GPL Message-ID: <2349.168.86.12.2.1172166362.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Here's a Cisco blog post stating that they were notified that one of their iPhone models was not compliant and that they are "taking steps to resolve" that issue: http://blogs.cisco.com/news/2007/01/open_source_researcher_alerts.html Chris From josh at tcbug.org Thu Feb 22 12:21:36 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:21:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> On Thursday 22 February 2007 11:08, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > How about cisco? Well, they don't distribute their software > > either. They sell devices that run their software. Let's take a > > look at the GPL itself: > > > > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are > > not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act > > of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the > > Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based > > on the Program (independent of having been made by running the > > Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. > > > > How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device > > here) your microwave. Can you get the source code for that, even > > though it's based on linux? Of course not. The manufacturer of > > the microwave isn't distributing their software, they are simply > > selling a device that runs their software. > > That is a surprising interpretation. I don't agree with it. By > selling microwaves, the seller is *distributing* *copies* of the > software encoded within it. The format is irrelevant -- HDD, > firmware, floppy, CD, etc. Thus, because selling microwaves > involved distributing and copying the modified GPL software, and > not just running the programs, the software on the microwave (or > other embedded devices) is covered by the GPL. > > If you have a source that contradicts my claim, please share it. > > Mike I don't need a source do I? The fact that it's done with inpunity seems to back it up. When you sell a microwave are you distributing software in any sense of the word? You're distributing a piece of hardware that happens to have some (rather inaccessable) software running in it....if you read the GPL, especially the part I quoted, you'll notice 'running software' is not covered by the GPL. I think you are the one that needs to provide extrodinary proof, either with court records of cisco paying out because they are breaking the GPL, or perhaps providing me with a copy of the software running on every embedded device running a derivative of linux in your house (hint, there's more of them then you probably think) -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 12:29:15 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:29:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] GPL License (was:Linux, GPL, Source Code and Use) In-Reply-To: <45DDD430.7070004@kewlness.net> References: <45DDD430.7070004@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > The GPL license functions very simply when you get down to it. > > If you don't believe what I'm about to say, you are welcome to check > with the FSF website, and they will tell you the same thing. Why not find that part of the FSF website and direct us to that instead of writing your own interpretation? I mean, if it is really "the same thing." The law is tricky and every word counts. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 12:33:05 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:33:05 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > On Thursday 22 February 2007 11:08, Mike Miller wrote: >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: >>> How about cisco? Well, they don't distribute their software >>> either. They sell devices that run their software. Let's take a >>> look at the GPL itself: >>> >>> Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are >>> not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act >>> of running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the >>> Program is covered only if its contents constitute a work based >>> on the Program (independent of having been made by running the >>> Program). Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. >>> >>> How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device >>> here) your microwave. Can you get the source code for that, even >>> though it's based on linux? Of course not. The manufacturer of >>> the microwave isn't distributing their software, they are simply >>> selling a device that runs their software. >> >> That is a surprising interpretation. I don't agree with it. By >> selling microwaves, the seller is *distributing* *copies* of the >> software encoded within it. The format is irrelevant -- HDD, >> firmware, floppy, CD, etc. Thus, because selling microwaves >> involved distributing and copying the modified GPL software, and >> not just running the programs, the software on the microwave (or >> other embedded devices) is covered by the GPL. >> >> If you have a source that contradicts my claim, please share it. >> >> Mike > > I don't need a source do I? If you want me to care about what you are writing, yes. > The fact that it's done with inpunity seems to back it up. That isn't true. Maybe that's one reason for having a source. > When you sell a microwave are you distributing software in any sense of > the word? Yes, of course, if the software is encoded in the hardware of the machine, as in your example, then obviously, yes, you are distributing software when you sell a microwave. > You're distributing a piece of hardware that happens to have some > (rather inaccessable) software running in it....if you read the GPL, > especially the part I quoted, you'll notice 'running software' is not > covered by the GPL. I think you are not able to correct yourself. > I think you are the one that needs to provide extrodinary proof, > either with court records of cisco paying out because they are > breaking the GPL, or perhaps providing me with a copy of the software > running on every embedded device running a derivative of linux in > your house (hint, there's more of them then you probably think) Whatever. Mike From florin at iucha.net Thu Feb 22 12:54:02 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 12:54:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <20070222185402.GO29073@iucha.net> On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 12:21:36PM -0600, Josh Paetzel wrote: > I don't need a source do I? The fact that it's done with inpunity > seems to back it up. Define "impunity". The fact that something is done with impunity does not make it legal. Drug dealing is done with impunity (within certain time and location constraints). Take a ride on a highway and count the people driving over the posted speed limit - then use this strategy when called in court for speeding, and let us know how it worked. > When you sell a microwave are you distributing > software in any sense of the word? You're distributing a piece of > hardware that happens to have some (rather inaccessable) software > running in it....if you read the GPL, especially the part I quoted, > you'll notice 'running software' is not covered by the GPL. The software running inside my computer is rather inaccessible as well. I need special equipment: a disk controller, a processor, a terminal and some software to "access" it. What does that prove? > I think you are the one that needs to provide extrodinary proof, > either with court records of cisco paying out because they are > breaking the GPL, Cisco started distributing the source code for the kernel and some userspace utilities from their series of wireless routers and access points. > or perhaps providing me with a copy of the software > running on every embedded device running a derivative of linux in > your house (hint, there's more of them then you probably think) When you'll buy my house, I will. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070222/0544f72f/attachment.pgp From josh at tcbug.org Thu Feb 22 13:39:08 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:39:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <200702221339.08206.josh@tcbug.org> On Thursday 22 February 2007 12:33, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > On Thursday 22 February 2007 11:08, Mike Miller wrote: > >> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > >>> How about cisco? Well, they don't distribute their software > >>> either. They sell devices that run their software. Let's take > >>> a look at the GPL itself: > >>> > >>> Activities other than copying, distribution and modification > >>> are not covered by this License; they are outside its scope. > >>> The act of running the Program is not restricted, and the > >>> output from the Program is covered only if its contents > >>> constitute a work based on the Program (independent of having > >>> been made by running the Program). Whether that is true depends > >>> on what the Program does. > >>> > >>> How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device > >>> here) your microwave. Can you get the source code for that, > >>> even though it's based on linux? Of course not. The > >>> manufacturer of the microwave isn't distributing their > >>> software, they are simply selling a device that runs their > >>> software. > >> > >> That is a surprising interpretation. I don't agree with it. By > >> selling microwaves, the seller is *distributing* *copies* of the > >> software encoded within it. The format is irrelevant -- HDD, > >> firmware, floppy, CD, etc. Thus, because selling microwaves > >> involved distributing and copying the modified GPL software, and > >> not just running the programs, the software on the microwave (or > >> other embedded devices) is covered by the GPL. > >> > >> If you have a source that contradicts my claim, please share it. > >> > >> Mike > > > > I don't need a source do I? > > If you want me to care about what you are writing, yes. > > > The fact that it's done with inpunity seems to back it up. > > That isn't true. Maybe that's one reason for having a source. > > > When you sell a microwave are you distributing software in any > > sense of the word? > > Yes, of course, if the software is encoded in the hardware of the > machine, as in your example, then obviously, yes, you are > distributing software when you sell a microwave. > > > You're distributing a piece of hardware that happens to have some > > (rather inaccessable) software running in it....if you read the > > GPL, especially the part I quoted, you'll notice 'running > > software' is not covered by the GPL. > > I think you are not able to correct yourself. > > > I think you are the one that needs to provide extrodinary proof, > > either with court records of cisco paying out because they are > > breaking the GPL, or perhaps providing me with a copy of the > > software running on every embedded device running a derivative of > > linux in your house (hint, there's more of them then you probably > > think) > > Whatever. > > Mike > You can 'whatever' to your heart's content, but the real-world facts are this: linux is extremely popular with the embedded hardware community, and for the most part source code for embedded devices running linux is not available to the end-users. I'm sure this violation of the 'spirit of the GPL' is really frustrating, but I'm talking about the way things are, not the way you'd like them to be. (and yes, in case you haven't guessed, I'm particularly fond of the BSDL) I've found some cases of companies releasing the source to their proprietary GPL'd software, ala linksys. I've also found some examples of companies abandoning GPL'd software for other solutions, but I've yet to find an example of someone losing a 'cease and desist' or 'pay the author damages' court case, which leads me to believe companies have rolled either because it's cheaper to use something else than fight it out in court (regardless of whether they think they can win) or they don't want the linux fanboys to stop buying their gear. I'm not at all suggesting that if I roll JoshLinux and use GPL'd software and make my binaries which are runnable on commodity hardware available for download off my website for a fee that I don't have to distribute my source code to be in compliance with the GPL. But I disagree strongly with the suggestion that a microwave is a piece of software, and it seems that the industry is of the same opinion. I think you're a tad hung up on difference between the way things should be and the way they are. Just out of curiosity, how many embedded hardware guys do you know that use linux on their hardware? Are you at all familiar with the industry, how popular and pevasive linux is in it? I take the stance that I don't have to provide web-links because I think we're all too familiar of cases of companies modifing GPL software, using it in their proprietary devices, selling it, not distributing the source code, and nothing happening to them (ala cisco) I could provide example after example of this if I wanted to, but I don't feel it's my responsibility to spoon-feed you information on how the real-world works. You have google, and provided you're any good at using it you can find out the truth for yourself. Your general attitude, with comments like "whatever" and "I think you are not able to correct yourself." reeks of fan-boyism, immaturity, or most likely, both. Take a look around you at how the world is.....unfortunately it doesn't line up wtih how you'd like it to be. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From jimstreit at northlans.com Thu Feb 22 14:03:42 2007 From: jimstreit at northlans.com (jimstreit at northlans.com) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 14:03:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Comodo.com (Not Linux Related) Message-ID: <20070222140342.pb16tt6xkc0wooco@webmail.northlans.com> Sorry to send a non-linux related question to the TCLUG list, but your the smartest group of people that I know. (Scary ;-) Anybody know whats happening with Comodo.com today? They provide SSL Certificates. We have a few web pages that pull information from Comodo ... which are having problems today. If you visit comodo.com's website all you get is: "We are currently experiencing technical difficulties. Please bear with us. " Just wondering if anybody knew what was happening with them? Thanks Jim Streit From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 16:23:36 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:23:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702221339.08206.josh@tcbug.org> References: <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> <200702221339.08206.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > You can 'whatever' to your heart's content, but the real-world facts are > this: linux is extremely popular with the embedded hardware community, > and for the most part source code for embedded devices running linux is > not available to the end-users. I'm sure this violation of the 'spirit > of the GPL' is really frustrating, but I'm talking about the way things > are, not the way you'd like them to be. (and yes, in case you haven't > guessed, I'm particularly fond of the BSDL) Josh - I'm not contesting what is being done. I don't know anything about that and you have no references to any studies so I still know nothing about it. My only point is that the GPL seems to cover uses of GPL'd software within the hardware of any kind of device. I don't see how it can be OK to encode the software into a device and then avoid the GPL. You were saying that the GPL does not apply to such devices and I am saying that you are mistaken. It doesn't matter how many people who know who make devices -- that is completely irrelevant to how the GPL should be interpretted. If you can't give me any reference information, I can't read your messages because they aren't informative. > I disagree strongly with the suggestion that a microwave is a piece of > software, and it seems that the industry is of the same opinion. Of course, no one said that a microwave is a piece of software (or even that a microwave oven is a piece of software), but we did say that if it is running Linux inside, and it is being sold, then software is being copied and distributed and the GPL applies to that use of the software. > I take the stance that I don't have to provide web-links because I think > we're all too familiar of cases of companies modifing GPL software, > using it in their proprietary devices, selling it, not distributing the > source code, and nothing happening to them (ala cisco) I could provide > example after example of this if I wanted to, but I don't feel it's my > responsibility to spoon-feed you information on how the real-world > works. You have google, and provided you're any good at using it you > can find out the truth for yourself. Another problem with your thinking: Even if you are correct, it doesn't tell me what the proper interpretation of the GPL is. If it is illegal to dance on Sundays, but people dance on Sundays and are never arrested for it, does that mean that it is not illegal to dance on Sundays? There is a difference between laws and enforcement of laws and you don't seem to understand that. Mike From tj at kewlness.net Thu Feb 22 16:33:41 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:33:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DE1A45.4000909@kewlness.net> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > > The GPL license functions very simply when you get down to it. > > > > If you don't believe what I'm about to say, you are welcome to check > > with the FSF website, and they will tell you the same thing. > > Why not find that part of the FSF website and direct us to that instead of > writing your own interpretation? I mean, if it is really "the same > thing." The law is tricky and every word counts. > Mike Sure, Mike! One sec... Here is a Q&A vignette published by the FSF covering most, if not all, of what I posted: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html I think the only thing that might not be mentioned is the fact that distributors have the right to charge you for handling, copying to a medium, and shipping of the code - but that is covered in the GPL itself. I hope this helps! I didn't want to muddle the issue, or even send you off into reading the FAQ. I wanted to help clarify what seemed to be a misunderstanding. What I posted earlier, I hoped was just the salient points - to help clear things up. I hope the FAQ does a better job! Have a good one! T.J. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070222/5c32eb8d/attachment.vcf From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 16:41:59 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:41:59 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702221221.37137.josh@tcbug.org> <200702221339.08206.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > >> I disagree strongly with the suggestion that a microwave is a piece of >> software, and it seems that the industry is of the same opinion. > > Of course, no one said that a microwave is a piece of software (or even > that a microwave oven is a piece of software), but we did say that if it > is running Linux inside, and it is being sold, then software is being > copied and distributed and the GPL applies to that use of the software. Example: See below from the Source Code Release FAQ at gpl-violations.org http://gpl-violations.org/faq/sourcecode-faq.html What version of the source code do I have to release? For each and every version of the executable program, you have to release the precisely corresponding version of the complete corresponding source code. So if you have distributed ten different versions of firmware for an embedded product, and this firmware contains GPL licensed software, then you need to release ten different source code packages, each one corresponding for each executable version. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Feb 22 17:00:01 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:00:01 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <45DE1A45.4000909@kewlness.net> References: <45DE1A45.4000909@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > Here is a Q&A vignette published by the FSF covering most, if not all, of what I posted: > http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html > > I think the only thing that might not be mentioned is the fact that > distributors have the right to charge you for handling, copying to a > medium, and shipping of the code - but that is covered in the GPL > itself. Thanks, T.J. That is an important point. It is covered in this section of the FAQ: I just found out that a company has a copy of a GPL'ed program, and it costs money to get it. Aren't they violating the GPL by not making it available on the Internet? Maybe some of us are not understanding that it is perfectly fine to use GPL code to build some device that runs that code internally and to then sell that device (along with internal GPL code). That isn't a violation unless no information about the existence of that code is included with the device. The distributor has to offer the code. It's in section 3 of the GPL2: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter if it's in a microwave oven or on a computer HDD. Mike From tj at kewlness.net Thu Feb 22 17:59:09 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:59:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <45DE1A45.4000909@kewlness.net> Message-ID: <45DE2E4D.5020504@kewlness.net> Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 22 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > >> Here is a Q&A vignette published by the FSF covering most, if not >> all, of what I posted: >> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html >> >> I think the only thing that might not be mentioned is the fact that >> distributors have the right to charge you for handling, copying to a >> medium, and shipping of the code - but that is covered in the GPL >> itself. > > Thanks, T.J. That is an important point. It is covered in this > section of the FAQ: > > I just found out that a company has a copy of a GPL'ed program, and it > costs money to get it. Aren't they violating the GPL by not making it > available on the Internet? > > Maybe some of us are not understanding that it is perfectly fine to > use GPL code to build some device that runs that code internally and > to then sell that device (along with internal GPL code). That isn't a > violation unless no information about the existence of that code is > included with the device. The distributor has to offer the code. > It's in section 3 of the GPL2: > > http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html > > As far as I can tell, it doesn't matter if it's in a microwave oven or > on a computer HDD. > > Mike You're very welcome! =) No, it really doesn't matter the form the GPL code takes. Others might quibble over minutiae when interpreting the license, but I'd put money on the fact if it ever hit a courtroom, the distinction wouldn't matter. One of the first things I learned a years ago, was that whether a program is written is software or hardware, it is still a program. I expect that the GPL doesn't make that distinction, because legally it's probably not necessary. Whether it's written in a language such as C, or in embedded microcode in the form of a processor, PLA, or flash - it amounts to precisely the same thing. It's all a set of instructions (aka boolean equations) to govern a desired operation. There really is no difference between the high level language code or embedded logic - because in the end it IS ALL processor logic. I realize what I'm about to say will probably offend a sizable number of posters, and for that I do apologize, but there is no other way to say it. Today's programmers are massively lazy. They learn languages but not the theory of how it all works. They don't learn the legal responsibilities of their positions within the industry. They click through, violate unwittingly, or deliberately ignore license agreements. That is one of the many reasons we have legions of lawyers running around in lawsuits all over the place. I had my fun dealing with licenses back in 2002 with Borland, and it was a learning experience. I saw firsthand how messed up enterprise licenses are, after arguing with Borland over Kylix OSS Edition. After that, I can appreciate how wonderful, and simple, the GPL license really is. T.J. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070222/c516cad3/attachment.vcf From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com Thu Feb 22 19:52:49 2007 From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John T. Hoffoss) Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:52:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> References: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <914f813c0702221752p7c22abbbj1ada4415603aec38@mail.gmail.com> On 2/22/07, Josh Paetzel wrote: > How about cisco? Well, they don't distribute their software either. > They sell devices that run their software. Let's take a look at the > GPL itself: 1. Cisco *distributed* copies of GLP'd software that they modified. Not a stock kernel with their closed-source app linking to LGPL'd software, as somone else addressed already. 2. You're not looking at the GPL itself, but your off-the-cuff interpretation, which is in direct opposition to *actual evidence* and *sources* posted to the list by others. > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program > is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the > Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). > Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. Running a program is not covered by the GPL, you are correct. But distribution (which by default takes place in a router, microwave or otherwise) *is* covered. When a microwave is distributed with a stock kernel with a closed-source driver, that's fine. If the author modifies the stock kernel though, they must distribute their modifications in some form. Again, addressed with backup sources by others already. > How about the software that runs (choose your embedded device here) > your microwave. Can you get the source code for that, even though > it's based on linux? Of course not. The manufacturer of the > microwave isn't distributing their software, they are simply selling > a device that runs their software. Yes, the manufacturer is distributing that software. *IDENTICAL* to the corollary posted by another re: buying a computer with [some customized] Linux pre-installed. Embedded makes no difference here. However, if the Microwave vendor distributes a stock kernel that runs shell scripts that control their microwave, then no, there is no need to provide source code. > I suspect that a lot of the time when companies roll on this they are > simply trying to avoid bad publicity and getting tied up in court > even if they are bound to win in the end. Besides, who really cares > at the end of the day if you have the source code to an application > that only runs on custom ASICs in a cisco router? I'd guess cisco > doesn't take the time to publish their changes because it's expensive > to do so, not out of some desire to keep their proprietary changes to > themselves. In response to your question in another message re: embedded developers using Linux without distributing changes: The only guy I know and talked to uses BSD as the base for their products (and this is not a small embedded company) *exactly* because of the GPL and license requirements to distribute source code. From jus at krytosvirus.com Fri Feb 23 00:02:22 2007 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 00:02:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> Message-ID: <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> > The only guy I know and talked to uses BSD as the base for their > products (and this is not a small embedded company) *exactly* because > of the GPL and license requirements to distribute source code. > Yup, BSD based is the way to go. Its much more free than GPL. You wont hear a bunch of mumbo jumbo theories, guesses and suggestions about what is legal or not or one interpretation vs another. BSD: use it, tweak it, sell it, profit. Just remember to give a hats off to the original creators. No fuss. One memorable quote from Theo, "But software which OpenBSD uses and redistributes must be free to all (be they people or companies), for any purpose they wish to use it, including modification, use, peeing on, or even integration into baby mulching machines or atomic bombs to be dropped on Australia." Have a nice day (or not) From tj at kewlness.net Fri Feb 23 02:11:08 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:11:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 26, Issue 32 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45DEA19C.7010203@kewlness.net> John Hoffoss wrote: > > The only guy I know and talked to uses BSD as the base for their > products (and this is not a small embedded company) *exactly* because > of the GPL and license requirements to distribute source code. > > That would be my choice too, but only if code sharing was a problem. That's why we have more than one FOSS license. The GPL isn't perfect, and doesn't always fit the bill, so to speak. In a perfect world, everyone could use the GPL, but the corporate culture and mindset is far from utopian - and the BSD license is a reasonable compromise. If I have my choice, I'd pick the GPL over the BSD because the GPL stipulates that you have to give something back. The BSD is very practical, but changes don't have to be shared, and this leads to the proprietary mindset most of us would rather avoid. The BSD crowd, though love to share ideas with everyone, as well as code - much to their credit. There are those though (again, my opinion) who abuse their work, by making derivatives solely proprietary. T.J. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070223/aa8346e9/attachment.vcf From jus at krytosvirus.com Fri Feb 23 09:38:45 2007 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:38:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 26, Issue 32 In-Reply-To: <4682612.1172218495196.JavaMail.root@sniper11> References: <4682612.1172218495196.JavaMail.root@sniper11> Message-ID: <200702230938.45746.jus@krytosvirus.com> On Friday 23 February 2007 02:11, T.J. Duchene wrote: > The BSD crowd, though love to share ideas with everyone, as well as code > - much to their credit. There are those though (again, my opinion) who > abuse their work, by making derivatives solely proprietary. > > T.J. Is it really abuse? Is there an expectation that they give something back? And actually they technically are giving something back: their product/service is probably better because of the free access to free quality code. They might not be "giving" their product/service for free but just because Ford doesn't give me their cars doesn't mean the community is worse off because they sell their cars. (the specific anaoloy of cars is arguable on enviro and other points, its just a hypothetical example). If Microsoft is (or maybe its now "was") using BSD derived networking code, don't you think their networking code is probably better off and less likely to be vulnerable thus making the internet and websites and internet services you use that are running on or dependent on windows more reliable? You win, they win, we all win. :) From crumley at belka.space.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 09:57:28 2007 From: crumley at belka.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 09:57:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <914f813c0702221752p7c22abbbj1ada4415603aec38@mail.gmail.com> References: <12698.168.86.12.2.1172091562.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <914f813c0702221752p7c22abbbj1ada4415603aec38@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070223095728.A10490@pchelka.space.umn.edu> On Thu, Feb 22, 2007 at 07:52:49PM -0600, John T. Hoffoss wrote: > On 2/22/07, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > Activities other than copying, distribution and modification are not > > covered by this License; they are outside its scope. The act of > > running the Program is not restricted, and the output from the Program > > is covered only if its contents constitute a work based on the > > Program (independent of having been made by running the Program). > > Whether that is true depends on what the Program does. > > Running a program is not covered by the GPL, you are correct. But > distribution (which by default takes place in a router, microwave or > otherwise) *is* covered. When a microwave is distributed with a stock > kernel with a closed-source driver, that's fine. If the author > modifies the stock kernel though, they must distribute their > modifications in some form. Again, addressed with backup sources by > others already. They don't have to distribute the source. They have to *offer* in writing to distribute the source when they distribute the binaries. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLRequireSourcePostedPublic Yes, it is a minor distinction, but an important one when you are talking about things like microwaves. Personally, I wouldn't bother to ask for the source in that case because I don't have the equipment needed to update the firmware on a microwave. For routers or DVRs, though, looking at the source has more appeal. -- Jim Crumley |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG) Ruthless Debian Zealot |http://www.mn-linux.org/ Never laugh at live dragons | From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 10:05:54 2007 From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (Benjamin Gramlich) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:05:54 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Install Fest In-Reply-To: <200702230938.45746.jus@krytosvirus.com> References: <4682612.1172218495196.JavaMail.root@sniper11> <200702230938.45746.jus@krytosvirus.com> Message-ID: <1172246754.5882.34.camel@gramlich-laptop> Hey folks, Are we going to have another install-fest soon? If so, I'd love to help out. Thanks, bg From Bruce.Broecker at toro.com Fri Feb 23 10:15:05 2007 From: Bruce.Broecker at toro.com (Bruce Broecker) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:15:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Install Fest In-Reply-To: <1172246754.5882.34.camel@gramlich-laptop> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > > Hey folks, > > Are we going to have another install-fest soon? If so, I'd > love to help out. > > Thanks, > bg You know, I was just thinking about that. Maybe I could host it back here at Toro. Its definitely been a couple of years since I had it here. Security here has changed around a bit, so I would need to check it out before I commit to doing anything. Bruce From wdtj at yahoo.com Fri Feb 23 10:42:19 2007 From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 08:42:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [tclug-list] Install Fest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070223164219.46592.qmail@web53802.mail.yahoo.com> I was thinking we could hold one at HCA, but we'll have to wait till June. Bruce Broecker wrote: > -----Original Message----- > > Hey folks, > > Are we going to have another install-fest soon? If so, I'd > love to help out. > > Thanks, > bg You know, I was just thinking about that. Maybe I could host it back here at Toro. Its definitely been a couple of years since I had it here. Security here has changed around a bit, so I would need to check it out before I commit to doing anything. Bruce _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list --- Wayne Johnson, | There are two kinds of people: Those 3943 Penn Ave. N. | who say to God, "Thy will be done," Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, (612) 522-7003 | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis --------------------------------- Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get things done faster. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070223/bc1ee0d9/attachment.htm From srcfoo at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 10:45:02 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 10:45:02 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Install Fest In-Reply-To: References: <1172246754.5882.34.camel@gramlich-laptop> Message-ID: <579c6fd30702230845q2b8f8b50nadb15ae787b2bbd8@mail.gmail.com> Yes. We're currently in the planning stages of a LUG meeting and an installfest. We're trying to get it all arranged to happen in March. If you have a location for us to use for an Installfest, we'd love to hear about it! Details will be coming soon regarding the next meeting and hopefully the next install fest. Cheers! Eric On 2/23/07, Bruce Broecker wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > Hey folks, > > > > Are we going to have another install-fest soon? If so, I'd > > love to help out. > > > > Thanks, > > bg > > You know, I was just thinking about that. Maybe I could host it back > here at Toro. > > Its definitely been a couple of years since I had it here. > > Security here has changed around a bit, so I would need to check it out > before > I commit to doing anything. > > Bruce > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From tj at kewlness.net Fri Feb 23 12:17:03 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 12:17:03 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] BSD In-Reply-To: <200702230938.45746.jus@krytosvirus.com> References: <4682612.1172218495196.JavaMail.root@sniper11> <200702230938.45746.jus@krytosvirus.com> Message-ID: <45DF2F9F.4050208@kewlness.net> Justin Krejci wrote: > > > Is it really abuse? Is there an expectation that they give something back? And > actually they technically are giving something back: their product/service is > probably better because of the free access to free quality code. They might > not be "giving" their product/service for free but just because Ford doesn't > give me their cars doesn't mean the community is worse off because they sell > their cars. (the specific anaoloy of cars is arguable on enviro and other > points, its just a hypothetical example). > > If Microsoft is (or maybe its now "was") using BSD derived networking code, > don't you think their networking code is probably better off and less likely > to be vulnerable thus making the internet and websites and internet services > you use that are running on or dependent on windows more reliable? You win, > they win, we all win. :) As I said, this is just my opinion. If you don't like my opinions, then please don't bother to read them, because I have zero time for flamewars. The only reason I'm responding now is because I feel that this is a legitimate discussion of licensing. "Free" or not doesn't really enter into what I was referring to. People seem to have this locked on mindset that FOSS software means without charge. That's rediculous! Free means free access to code - not a free ride. I don't feel that it's right for someone to take another's work that they probably did on a pro-bono basis, and don't give them any credit. Then they charge the same amount or even more than they did before - after lowering developer costs by using BSD code. Incorporating tested and true BSD code DOES make some small portion better, granted. But only if the rest of it isn't crappy to begin with. As for Microsoft making the Internet safer by incorporating BSD into their systems - we both know Justin, for a fact, that in theory that works very well. In practice, pretty much every UNIX admin agrees that Microsoft wouldn't know a secure operating system if it came up and bit them. But corporate America giving something back in better services - you must be joking. They only thing the majority of them really care about is their profit margin. The only non-FOSS companies I've seen give anything back in recent memory are the companies forced to by the GPL and similar reciprocal OSS licenses. There are exceptions, of course. Sun Microsystems being one (having gone pretty much all OSS), primarily because they realized that sharing is a good idea. They didn't have to release Java - but they did - mostly due to external pressure. The only mainstream desktop OS competitor that has truly benefited from the BSD license is probably Apple, and primarily because they can't get a respectable number of developers to write software for their systems unless they fall back on the BSD POSIX codebase. I find it ironic that Apple uses the BSD license - granted, one of the first and best of the OSS licenses, and then ignores the entire community so badly that the OpenDarwin Project just gave up and closed down. Apple and a majority of (but not all) the other companies that use the BSD really don't seem to be interesting in fostering community development and improvement - which is what the intent of the BSD license, to create a contributed stable pool of software for everyone to use - without licensing shackles. Seems to me that the only people who have done that are the folks who believe in the BSD license. Everyone else (non-OSS) just takes their code, and runs with it. Well, I've said my 10 cents. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 13:34:33 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:34:33 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Justin Krejci wrote: >> The only guy I know and talked to uses BSD as the base for their >> products (and this is not a small embedded company) *exactly* because >> of the GPL and license requirements to distribute source code. > > Yup, BSD based is the way to go. Not for the individual licensing his code, but for the individual who wishes to use code written by someone else. If you want to contribute something to the world, you definitely should not choose BSD for your license. The GPL will do much better in promoting the software and leading to further development. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 13:45:15 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:45:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <45DEA19C.7010203@kewlness.net> References: <45DEA19C.7010203@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > The GPL isn't perfect, and doesn't always fit the bill, so to speak. I guess if the bill is "I just want people to use it, I don't care if they give anything back," then BSD is better. > In a perfect world, everyone could use the GPL, but the corporate > culture and mindset is far from utopian - and the BSD license is a > reasonable compromise. BSD is a great choice if your goal is to help corporations, like Microsoft, to make more money. > If I have my choice, I'd pick the GPL over the BSD because the GPL > stipulates that you have to give something back. The BSD is very > practical, but changes don't have to be shared, and this leads to the > proprietary mindset most of us would rather avoid. Exactly. But isn't that the whole point of the GPL and FOSS? The idea of creating communities where code is shared is the core idea. BSD says that it is just fine to take and not give. In the end, that doesn't work out. Comparing BSD with GPL, I think GNU/Linux is doing much better than FreeBSD and it is partly because of the license. Microsoft and Apple can use the FreeBSD code and not give anything back, so FreeBSD is helping their competition without helping themselves. If there was no FreeBSD code inside of Windows and OS X, where would Linux be now? Much better off, I think. So I think BSD is not helping us. > The BSD crowd, though love to share ideas with everyone, as well as code > - much to their credit. There are those though (again, my opinion) who > abuse their work, by making derivatives solely proprietary. It isn't really abuse because BSD is saying that they want it that way. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 13:48:45 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:48:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 26, Issue 32 In-Reply-To: <200702230938.45746.jus@krytosvirus.com> References: <4682612.1172218495196.JavaMail.root@sniper11> <200702230938.45746.jus@krytosvirus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Justin Krejci wrote: > On Friday 23 February 2007 02:11, T.J. Duchene wrote: > >> The BSD crowd, though love to share ideas with everyone, as well as >> code - much to their credit. There are those though (again, my >> opinion) who abuse their work, by making derivatives solely >> proprietary. > > Is it really abuse? Is there an expectation that they give something back? You are right. There is no such expectation and that is why BSD is not a very good license. > And actually they technically are giving something back: their > product/service is probably better because of the free access to free > quality code. In other words, what we are getting back is more powerful competition from the multi-billion dollar proprietary software industry. This helps to promote the myth that proprietary software is better than free software. > If Microsoft is (or maybe its now "was") using BSD derived networking > code, don't you think their networking code is probably better off and > less likely to be vulnerable thus making the internet and websites and > internet services you use that are running on or dependent on windows > more reliable? You win, they win, we all win. :) Strengthening Microsoft is not exactly the kind of winning that I want to be a part of. In fact, I would say that your argument makes a good case for the exact opposite of what you are concluding. Mike From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 14:21:16 2007 From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (Benjamin Gramlich) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:21:16 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Avoiding the windows tax Message-ID: <1172262077.7321.0.camel@gramlich-laptop> Dell now has a line of open source notebooks. http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 14:30:21 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 14:30:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Avoiding the windows tax In-Reply-To: <1172262077.7321.0.camel@gramlich-laptop> References: <1172262077.7321.0.camel@gramlich-laptop> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Benjamin Gramlich wrote: > Dell now has a line of open source notebooks. > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn And that leads me to ask: What the heck is "FreeDOS?" I wasn't expecting that to be their choice! Mike From jeruvin at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 15:04:52 2007 From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:04:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Avoiding the windows tax In-Reply-To: References: <1172262077.7321.0.camel@gramlich-laptop> Message-ID: <6eb23c4e0702231304g5c4590bcj45397264ebd17b70@mail.gmail.com> FreeDOS is an open source version of DOS. For those that just can't let go of their little DOS computers. Jason On 2/23/07, Mike Miller wrote: > > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Benjamin Gramlich wrote: > > > Dell now has a line of open source notebooks. > > > > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn > > > And that leads me to ask: What the heck is "FreeDOS?" > > I wasn't expecting that to be their choice! > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070223/ed17febd/attachment.htm From joey.rockhold at gmail.com Fri Feb 23 15:23:18 2007 From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:23:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Avoiding the windows tax In-Reply-To: <6eb23c4e0702231304g5c4590bcj45397264ebd17b70@mail.gmail.com> References: <1172262077.7321.0.camel@gramlich-laptop> <6eb23c4e0702231304g5c4590bcj45397264ebd17b70@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <101e49ea0702231323i47c89ecck5df6e8761010d9c4@mail.gmail.com> OK, I admit it, I still use DOS! But mostly for old games. Anyways, I personally have found that DOS emulators (DOSBox, DOSEmu) to be more reliable than FreeDOS. And I have also found FreeDOS works much better inside a VMWare machine than it does as a stand-alone operating system on an older machine. But that's my experience with it. - Joey On 2/23/07, jason reynolds wrote: > > FreeDOS is an open source version of DOS. For those that just can't let go > of their little DOS computers. > > Jason > > On 2/23/07, Mike Miller < mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote: > > > > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Benjamin Gramlich wrote: > > > > > Dell now has a line of open source notebooks. > > > > > > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd&~ck=mn > > > > > > > > > > And that leads me to ask: What the heck is "FreeDOS?" > > > > I wasn't expecting that to be their choice! > > > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070223/c2c0b36c/attachment-0001.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 15:40:23 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 15:40:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Avoiding the windows tax In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0702231323i47c89ecck5df6e8761010d9c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <1172262077.7321.0.camel@gramlich-laptop> <6eb23c4e0702231304g5c4590bcj45397264ebd17b70@mail.gmail.com> <101e49ea0702231323i47c89ecck5df6e8761010d9c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Joey Rockhold wrote: > OK, I admit it, I still use DOS! But mostly for old games. So what happened? Did you get addicted to Frogger back in 1987? Mike From rwh at visi.com Fri Feb 23 16:12:15 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 16:12:15 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> Message-ID: <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> Mike Miller wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Justin Krejci wrote: > >>> The only guy I know and talked to uses BSD as the base for their >>> products (and this is not a small embedded company) *exactly* because >>> of the GPL and license requirements to distribute source code. >> Yup, BSD based is the way to go. > > Not for the individual licensing his code, but for the individual who > wishes to use code written by someone else. If you want to contribute > something to the world, you definitely should not choose BSD for your > license. The GPL will do much better in promoting the software and > leading to further development. > Hey Mike, That seems a bit simplistic. How many places/projects do you think might want to use GPL but don't care to participate in the legal vagarities revolving around GPL? If I license a commercial library I pay cash and agree to restrictions on distribution. If I go the GPL route I don't pay cash but I do have to buy into the social goals of the GPL and accept some uncertaintly about IP liability. If I go the BSD route I only have to accept some uncertainty about IP liability. I 'grew' up during the days of the Apple II and CP/M and a lot of us just put code out there in the public domain. So I have no problem with the BSD approach. I've also worked on projects where a commercial license was preferable and some where GPL was fine. I'm a bit surprised by your comment. I doubt there are any restrictions on your published papers that would prevent me from extending what you've done (in principle anyway, practice is a different matter) and using it in a strictly commercial setting. That is essentially what the BSD folks are doing. Two small corrections to some of the stuff I've seen flying by in this thread. The code most people are referring to when they talk about MS using 'BSD' code is the network stack. As I recall this predates either GPL or BSD licenses. I believe it was put into the public domain as a result of AT&T's failed suit against the UCal Board of Regents distribution of the original BSD code which was based on AT&T's Unix code. It was also my impression that Apple's OS X was based on the same BSD licensed by NeXT from Berkeley rather than FreeBSD, although parts of OS X were ported from FreeBSD. I'm also pretty sure that Apple had been posting back enhancements to FreeBSD - Wikipedia mentions the Base Security Module being ported back from Apple's implimentation. They were also contributing patches and features from Safari back to KDE's Konqueror - at least until there was some conflict in priorities between Apple and the KDE folks. MS is another story, but really, do you want them contributing to the code base :-) --rick From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Feb 23 17:26:17 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 17:26:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, rwh wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: >> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Justin Krejci wrote: >> >>>> The only guy I know and talked to uses BSD as the base for their >>>> products (and this is not a small embedded company) *exactly* because >>>> of the GPL and license requirements to distribute source code. >>> Yup, BSD based is the way to go. >> >> Not for the individual licensing his code, but for the individual who >> wishes to use code written by someone else. If you want to contribute >> something to the world, you definitely should not choose BSD for your >> license. The GPL will do much better in promoting the software and >> leading to further development. > > > That seems a bit simplistic. How many places/projects do you think might > want to use GPL but don't care to participate in the legal vagarities > revolving around GPL? If I license a commercial library I pay cash and > agree to restrictions on distribution. If I go the GPL route I don't pay > cash but I do have to buy into the social goals of the GPL and accept > some uncertaintly about IP liability. If I go the BSD route I only have > to accept some uncertainty about IP liability. You are writing from the perspective of the individual or group using the code written by someone else. I agree with you (see above), but the individual who wrote the code is the one who should prefer the GPL to the BSD license. > I 'grew' up during the days of the Apple II and CP/M and a lot of us > just put code out there in the public domain. So I have no problem with > the BSD approach. I've also worked on projects where a commercial > license was preferable and some where GPL was fine. It's fine to just give it away (a la BSD or "no license at all"), but it isn't as good for you, the developer, as distributing under the GPL. Now that you have the GPL, it is easy for you to license your software with the GPL instead of just giving it away. > I'm a bit surprised by your comment. I doubt there are any restrictions > on your published papers that would prevent me from extending what > you've done (in principle anyway, practice is a different matter) and > using it in a strictly commercial setting. That is essentially what the > BSD folks are doing. Every published paper has a copyright held by the publisher, but I don't think that is relevant. The thing you might not be getting is the difference between using code to accomplish something versus using code as part of another program. It is fine to use GPL code to, say, design a car and then sell the car and give no credit whatsoever to the developer of the GPL code. It is not fine to use GPL code within a program that you then distribute under a different license. So people might use some of my papers to discover genes that affect diabetes of blood pressure or whatever, and they owe me nothing (but they might cite my papers). On the other hand, they are not free to use a paragraph from my paper inside of their paper (not without quotation marks and correct attribution). > Two small corrections to some of the stuff I've seen flying by in this > thread. The code most people are referring to when they talk about MS > using 'BSD' code is the network stack. As I recall this predates either > GPL or BSD licenses. I believe it was put into the public domain as a > result of AT&T's failed suit against the UCal Board of Regents > distribution of the original BSD code which was based on AT&T's Unix > code. It might predate the most recent version of the BSD license that removed the requirement to repeat the "Regents" line all the time. Do you have a source for that? I couldn't find anyting about it. Another possibility is that many of us are misunderstanding the BSD license. Look at this: http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070114093427179 http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/15/1757235&from=rss I'm not so sure he has that right. Distribution of a copyright notice is a bit different than distribution of a license, but IANAL. > It was also my impression that Apple's OS X was based on the same BSD > licensed by NeXT from Berkeley rather than FreeBSD, although parts of OS > X were ported from FreeBSD. I'm also pretty sure that Apple had been > posting back enhancements to FreeBSD - Wikipedia mentions the Base > Security Module being ported back from Apple's implimentation. They were > also contributing patches and features from Safari back to KDE's > Konqueror - at least until there was some conflict in priorities between > Apple and the KDE folks. That's nice of them, but the license is still such that OS X source is not available to us. I guess the message is that the BSD license doesn't force people to stop contributing code, but it doesn't force them to contribute either. I did not distinguish correctly between the BSD variants and said "FreeBSD" when it was something else - but the point is really that the license does not force Apple to share their source. OS X is making Linux a little less attractive and it is thereby slowing Linux development. That's how I see it, and it makes sense, but that isn't the sort of thing you can prove. > MS is another story, but really, do you want them contributing to the > code base :-) Yes!!! What they write has to be checked, of course. Mike From rwh at visi.com Fri Feb 23 19:31:20 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:31:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> Message-ID: <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> Mike Miller wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, rwh wrote: > >> Mike Miller wrote: >>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, Justin Krejci wrote: >>> >>>>> The only guy I know and talked to uses BSD as the base for their >>>>> products (and this is not a small embedded company) *exactly* because >>>>> of the GPL and license requirements to distribute source code. >>>> Yup, BSD based is the way to go. >>> >>> Not for the individual licensing his code, but for the individual who >>> wishes to use code written by someone else. If you want to contribute >>> something to the world, you definitely should not choose BSD for your >>> license. The GPL will do much better in promoting the software and >>> leading to further development. >> >> >> That seems a bit simplistic. How many places/projects do you think >> might want to use GPL but don't care to participate in the legal >> vagarities revolving around GPL? If I license a commercial library I >> pay cash and agree to restrictions on distribution. If I go the GPL >> route I don't pay cash but I do have to buy into the social goals of >> the GPL and accept some uncertaintly about IP liability. If I go the >> BSD route I only have to accept some uncertainty about IP liability. > > You are writing from the perspective of the individual or group using > the code written by someone else. I agree with you (see above), but the > individual who wrote the code is the one who should prefer the GPL to > the BSD license. I'm afraid that I don't accept that GPL is socially optimal to BSD. If the GPL license inhibits the use of the code I'd rather use BSD, and if someone grabs my code and finds a way to make a buck off it, more power to them. The only time I get irked is when someone takes someone else's free code, uses it in a proprietary manner, and then attempts to claim ownership of the original concept. I think MS was recently caught trying to file a patent for a particular interface used to teach object oriented programming that was essentially copied from someone else's work. [snip] >> I'm a bit surprised by your comment. I doubt there are any >> restrictions on your published papers that would prevent me from >> extending what you've done (in principle anyway, practice is a >> different matter) and using it in a strictly commercial setting. That >> is essentially what the BSD folks are doing. > > Every published paper has a copyright held by the publisher, but I don't > think that is relevant. The thing you might not be getting is the > difference between using code to accomplish something versus using code > as part of another program. It is fine to use GPL code to, say, design > a car and then sell the car and give no credit whatsoever to the > developer of the GPL code. It is not fine to use GPL code within a > program that you then distribute under a different license. So people > might use some of my papers to discover genes that affect diabetes of > blood pressure or whatever, and they owe me nothing (but they might cite > my papers). On the other hand, they are not free to use a paragraph > from my paper inside of their paper (not without quotation marks and > correct attribution). I guess I don't distinguish between code and words - they're both means of conveying IP. Suppose you identify a genetic sequence that serves to identify diabetics who are at particular risk from the effects of high blood pressure. Unless you are able to protect that IP through a patent, there is nothing to prevent me from using that information to market a test for that sequence. The philosophy behind GPL would allow you to require that anyone making use of your discovery would need to reveal the associated IP that they merged with your information. There would be nothing to stop you from getting a patent and imposing those conditions on anyone using your discovery (the Biological Open Source movement is one example, http://www.bios.net/daisy/bios/home.html) I guess the question is would you publish (like BSD) or go BiOS (like GPL)? > > >> Two small corrections to some of the stuff I've seen flying by in this >> thread. The code most people are referring to when they talk about MS >> using 'BSD' code is the network stack. As I recall this predates >> either GPL or BSD licenses. I believe it was put into the public >> domain as a result of AT&T's failed suit against the UCal Board of >> Regents distribution of the original BSD code which was based on >> AT&T's Unix code. > > It might predate the most recent version of the BSD license that removed > the requirement to repeat the "Regents" line all the time. Do you have > a source for that? I couldn't find anyting about it. > > Another possibility is that many of us are misunderstanding the BSD > license. Look at this: > > http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070114093427179 > http://bsd.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/15/1757235&from=rss > > I'm not so sure he has that right. Distribution of a copyright notice > is a bit different than distribution of a license, but IANAL. > O'Reilly has a detailed history of BSD at http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/opensources/book/kirkmck.html It looks like the spirit of the BSD license goes back to the early 80's. > >> It was also my impression that Apple's OS X was based on the same BSD >> licensed by NeXT from Berkeley rather than FreeBSD, although parts of >> OS X were ported from FreeBSD. I'm also pretty sure that Apple had >> been posting back enhancements to FreeBSD - Wikipedia mentions the >> Base Security Module being ported back from Apple's implimentation. >> They were also contributing patches and features from Safari back to >> KDE's Konqueror - at least until there was some conflict in priorities >> between Apple and the KDE folks. > > That's nice of them, but the license is still such that OS X source is > not available to us. I guess the message is that the BSD license > doesn't force people to stop contributing code, but it doesn't force > them to contribute either. > The O'Reilly article mentions that after the lawsuit was settled BSD split into a -Lite version and an -Encumbered version, the latter requiring a commercial license. One of the reasons that folks like Sun and Apple didn't worry too much about the whole SCO drama was that they have commercial source licenses. Apple may not have any requirement to release any source code. But my impression is that a good chunk of the OS is available from Apple, but the code for the interface isn't. I thought that Darwin was the underlying operating system with Cocoa sitting on top of that. http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/ > I did not distinguish correctly between the BSD variants and said > "FreeBSD" when it was something else - but the point is really that the > license does not force Apple to share their source. OS X is making > Linux a little less attractive and it is thereby slowing Linux > development. That's how I see it, and it makes sense, but that isn't the > sort of thing you can prove. > I use both and they each have their place. I feel very strongly about setting open standards and then let the market decide. I don't mind paying Apple for OS X since I think I get a good value for the money. I'm less sanguine about paying for Office (even with the academic discount) or Oracle, and my home is a Microsoft-free zone. Have a nice weekend. --rick From tj at kewlness.net Sat Feb 24 17:03:08 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:03:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 26, Issue 35 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E0C42C.8090800@kewlness.net> RWH Wrote: > , > > That seems a bit simplistic. How many places/projects do you think might > want to use GPL but don't care to participate in the legal vagarities > revolving around GPL? If I license a commercial library I pay cash and > agree to restrictions on distribution. If I go the GPL route I don't pay > cash but I do have to buy into the social goals of the GPL and accept > some uncertaintly about IP liability. If I go the BSD route I only have > to accept some uncertainty about IP liability. > Ahem, the GPL doesn't mean the code is free of cost, it just ensures the source code will be available on request. If you don't want IP liability, and be a programmer, you better find a new job - or move to the EU. Just about every program - FOSS or not - violates somebody's patent somewhere. The BSD license doesn't protect you from liability any better than the GPL. Ever since the PTO started granting patents on software, it is impossible, and I do mean impossible - not to violate a patent somewhere. The question is whether or not the patent is enforceable. Patent liability only extends to things that have no "prior art". In other words, if someone is granted a patent and there turns out to be something similar somewhere already in use - the patent is worthless and unenforceable. Hell, I remember reading about a year ago about a patent granted by the PTO on single CPU computers years ago. So that means that every PC, Mac, or whatnot has violated that patent. Try to enforce it, and they would laugh. Same with Microsoft - they have a patent on the "double-click". Every time you download source code or a program you take that risk. Especially from the EU, where software patents are illegal. If you download, aka import, you are probably violating someone's patent here in the US. The only thing you can do is try to keep your risk of infringement at a manageable level. > It was also my impression that Apple's OS X was based on the same BSD > licensed by NeXT from Berkeley rather than FreeBSD, although parts of OS > X were ported from FreeBSD. I'm also pretty sure that Apple had been > posting back enhancements to FreeBSD - Wikipedia mentions the Base > Security Module being ported back from Apple's implimentation. They were > also contributing patches and features from Safari back to KDE's > Konqueror - at least until there was some conflict in priorities between > Apple and the KDE folks. > > Actually, Darwin a hybrid of BSD and Mach, if you want to be picky. They borrowed from FreeBSD and Mach. The interface code, such as Quartz and Cocoa is entirely propreitary, however. Mike Wrote: > That's nice of them, but the license is still such that OS X source is not > available to us. > Darwin (the kernel) is available. The code for the GUI and interposing API layers are not. > OS X is making Linux > a little less attractive and it is thereby slowing Linux development. I honestly can't see how. The same people who worked on Linux will still work on it. People come and go, but the averages remain the same. Realistically, I can't see how OSX can take programmers away from Linux, when you consider that applications programmers for both systems write code according to POSIX standards -meaning it will compile on either. Quite frankly, I prefer Linux. The POSIX threading support on Darwin/OSX really sucks. Ever try to compile PostgreSQL on Darwin? It can be done, but since their pthread support is questionable, you might not get a reliable binary. As for "Linux" the core system, the Linux kernel guys are most certainly running their own versions of the Linux kernel, and NOT Darwin. Just my 2 cents, T.J. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070224/37eb3823/attachment.vcf From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 09:13:48 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:13:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, rwh wrote: > I'm afraid that I don't accept that GPL is socially optimal to BSD. If > the GPL license inhibits the use of the code I'd rather use BSD, and if > someone grabs my code and finds a way to make a buck off it, more power > to them. I think "more power to them" is a good way of putting it. If we produce code that can be used within proprietary, binaries-only software, then we are aiding the promoters of the proprietary model -- empowering them -- and this is not good for the FOSS movement. The GPL is better for FOSS than is the BSD license because of this. I have a problem with the argument (that I have seen recently, probably not from rwh) that BSD license is good because Microsoft can use it to produce better programs. By that line of thought, it is also good to simply write the code for Microsoft and give it to them for free. In doing so you are supposedly "helping people" -- all the people who use the Microsoft product with your code in it. Therefore, by that logic, you could also "help people" by putting an end to the FOSS movement and licensing all future would-have-been FOSS code to Microsoft exclusively. I want to support the free software movement because I see it changing the software world massively for the better. The BSD license just does not help to propel that movement forward as well as the GPL does. > The only time I get irked is when someone takes someone else's free > code, uses it in a proprietary manner, and then attempts to claim > ownership of the original concept. It's better if they give credit, but how much better? Suppose this is how the credit reads 5 years from now: "We want to thank John Doe for his contributions to the code base for Microsoft Word. Without his help we surely would not have been able to compete well with the newest version of Open Office. As a result of Mr. Doe's contributions, we have been able to retain millions of customers that we would otherwise have lost and these millions of sales have enabled us to maintain powerful legal and marketing departments, to promote our software and to fend off anti-trust suits. Thanks, John Doe, for everything!" >> Every published paper has a copyright held by the publisher, but I >> don't think that is relevant. The thing you might not be getting is >> the difference between using code to accomplish something versus using >> code as part of another program. It is fine to use GPL code to, say, >> design a car and then sell the car and give no credit whatsoever to the >> developer of the GPL code. It is not fine to use GPL code within a >> program that you then distribute under a different license. So people >> might use some of my papers to discover genes that affect diabetes of >> blood pressure or whatever, and they owe me nothing (but they might >> cite my papers). On the other hand, they are not free to use a >> paragraph from my paper inside of their paper (not without quotation >> marks and correct attribution). > > I guess I don't distinguish between code and words - they're both means > of conveying IP. I don't know what you mean. Did you read my paragraph above -- is that your response to it? I am also not distinguishing between code and words because I think they are legally the same thing. > Suppose you identify a genetic sequence that serves to identify > diabetics who are at particular risk from the effects of high blood > pressure. Unless you are able to protect that IP through a patent, there > is nothing to prevent me from using that information to market a test > for that sequence. > > The philosophy behind GPL would allow you to require that anyone making > use of your discovery would need to reveal the associated IP that they > merged with your information. There would be nothing to stop you from > getting a patent and imposing those conditions on anyone using your > discovery (the Biological Open Source movement is one example, > http://www.bios.net/daisy/bios/home.html) > > I guess the question is would you publish (like BSD) or go BiOS (like > GPL)? I guess I'm not really understanding you. GPL is copyright, not patent. I think you are mixing the two ideas. It is quite alright for corporations, say, to use GPL code to develop things that are then copyrighted or patented and no credit is given to the GPL developer, but they are not allowed to use the code itself within their product. > But my impression is that a good chunk of the OS is available from > Apple, but the code for the interface isn't. I thought that Darwin was > the underlying operating system with Cocoa sitting on top of that. > > http://www.opensource.apple.com/darwinsource/ Good to know. Maybe the OS X stuff that isn't available is all new code written by Apple. Mike From robbyt at robbyt.net Sun Feb 25 10:50:12 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 10:50:12 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] SIP phones locally? In-Reply-To: References: <47f4d5e70702210543wce3e8bof0af70fa0e050566@mail.gmail.com> <1f663090702211026r4dd37dc4oca87d9ad9eba682c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f663090702250850j35abe564wf33d74b45d49b013@mail.gmail.com> On 2/21/07, Nate Carlson wrote: > On Wed, 21 Feb 2007, Sean Waite wrote: > > Wow! I never knew they were in Maple Grove. I have never seen them > > listed in any broker/network equipment re-seller listings. They are > > somewhat pricey, but then again buying online just means you have to pay > > for shipping. > > Their prices aren't too bad - they are about industry standard. Just not > bottom dollar. They have a really good rep in the Asterisk community, too. > hush-hush, but just like a lot of resellers- if you're doing medium/large volume, you can get them to flex a bit on the prices... From tj at kewlness.net Sun Feb 25 11:05:52 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:05:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top Reasons Why NOT to Buy Windows Vista Message-ID: <45E1C1F0.3030403@kewlness.net> I don't want to sound anti-Microsoft, because I'm actually not. I just dislike their OS and their business practices strongly on many levels. But I wanted to share with you a bit of information - my reasons for sticking with XP and not buying Vista. #1. Assuming they stick to plan, MS will be replacing Vista in 2009, that's only 2 years away. #2. Vista uses DirectX 10 which is NOT compatible with DirectX 9. Since the majority of users who demand DirectX are gamers AND MS will be replacing Vista in 2 years, does MS honestly think the developers will switch? They want reach the largest audience, and that's DX9 by far. #3. A large portion of legacy hardware will not function with Vista, including such widely compatible hardware as a 3C905 Ethernet card. Granted, that's old, but it's a widely compatible card - plug it in and go. MS says it's too old to bother supporting. Right now, users on Internet who have upgraded to Vista are howling about substandard or no hardware support - even when hardware is marked Vista Ready. #4. Windows Vista has embedded DRM, in an era where even Apple is starting to admit DRM was probably a bad idea. If they are going to replace Vista in 2 years - why bother using a version of Windows with it embedded? #5. Microsoft has announced in the license that you CANNOT run the Home versions of Vista in virtual environments. In other words, if you want to Xen sandbox Vista, you have to go out and pay and extra $100 to buy one of the more expensive versions. #6. Microsoft is so cheap they wont even give you the new interface with the Vista Basic version. #7. If you want POSIX programming support, something programmers have been screaming for since Microsoft gutted it from Windows six or seven years ago, you have to buy a enterprise class copy or better. POSIX being an API standard for applications programming on all other major operating systems. The lack of it in Windows is a major impediment to the FOSS software base (which the majority of uses POSIX) being ported to Windows. Ironically, Microsoft was one of the original signatories to the standard. Right now, you can download and add the official POSIX add-on package for XP Pro for precisely $0 from the Microsoft update center. So my question is: if you can't get proper gaming support, your older hardware won't PnP, you don't want to be shackled by imcompatible audio/video, Vista Ready hardware is having issues, and you can't even run it in parallel with Linux using VMWare or Xen (unless you spring for a business copy) - WHY would you really want to run Vista at all? Especially when they will take your $120-$400 and then just replace it in 2 years with another monster. Now if they said, we will take $100-$150 a year and provide you with consistant, meaningful upgrades - and everyone has the same version of Vista - I might have said yes. (BTW, just for the Mac fans - you aren't allowed to run OSX in a virtual sandbox either because of their stupid hardware copy protection. They don't want anyone running OSX on a virtual Mac.) So I'm not going to buy Vista. I'm going to keep XP, and just go XEN when my new Intel hardware arrives. Just my 2 cents, T.J. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070225/b73a64aa/attachment.vcf From klieber at gentoo.org Sun Feb 25 11:58:42 2007 From: klieber at gentoo.org (Kurt Lieber) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 11:58:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top Reasons Why NOT to Buy Windows Vista In-Reply-To: <45E1C1F0.3030403@kewlness.net> References: <45E1C1F0.3030403@kewlness.net> Message-ID: <82d43d110702250958r311264case34cc3778f586a6b@mail.gmail.com> On 2/25/07, T.J. Duchene wrote: > But I wanted to share with you a bit of information - my reasons for > sticking with XP and not buying Vista. Last I checked, this was a Linux list, not a "why I hate Microsoft, but am going to say I really don't hate them" list. If you're going to post OT drivel (especially factually incorrect OT drivel), please have the courtesy to mark it [OT] so the rest of us can ignore you. > #2. Vista uses DirectX 10 which is NOT compatible with DirectX 9. Since > the majority of users who demand DirectX are gamers AND MS will be > replacing Vista in 2 years, does MS honestly think the developers will > switch? Not correct. Vista CAN use DirectX 10. However, Vista CAN ALSO use DirectX 9. See: http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=09f7578c-24aa-4e0a-bf91-5fec24c8c7bf&DisplayLang=en http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb219801.aspx Hopefully, I didn't just feed the troll... --kurt From rwh at visi.com Sun Feb 25 12:43:19 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:43:19 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> Message-ID: <45E1D8C7.7090708@visi.com> Mike Miller wrote: > On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, rwh wrote: > >> I'm afraid that I don't accept that GPL is socially optimal to BSD. If >> the GPL license inhibits the use of the code I'd rather use BSD, and >> if someone grabs my code and finds a way to make a buck off it, more >> power to them. > > I think "more power to them" is a good way of putting it. If we produce > code that can be used within proprietary, binaries-only software, then > we are aiding the promoters of the proprietary model -- empowering them > -- and this is not good for the FOSS movement. The GPL is better for > FOSS than is the BSD license because of this. > My first point was simply that FOSS as a movement extends far beyond source code. There are groups trying to free up research (PloS), gene patents (BiOS), music, art & literature (Creative Commons), source code (GPL, BSD, Apache), etc. If someone truly believes in the FOSS movement, it is inconsistent to say that it is preferable to encumber IP in source with something like GPL and then turn around and give away IP unencumbered simply because one is covered by a copyright and the other by a patent. My second point is that protecting code for the sake of protecting code is meaningless if it means that the code doesn't get used. I would argue that the really interesting changes are being driven by open standards rather than open source. Offhand I can't think of anything licensed under GPL that is sufficiently complex that the GPL can't be broken simply by producing a new implementation to the published interface specifications; especially by organizations with the resources of a MS, Apple, or Cisco. Look at how quickly Cisco switched from Linux to VxWorks (a proprietary embedded OS) when they were forced to release the Linux source they were using in the WRT54G access points? They obviously decided that paying Wind Rivers' royalty was 'cheaper' than using a GPL product. --rick From sac at cheesecake.org Sun Feb 25 13:04:40 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 13:04:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> Message-ID: <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 at 09.13.48 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > I think "more power to them" is a good way of putting it. If we produce > code that can be used within proprietary, binaries-only software, then we > are aiding the promoters of the proprietary model -- empowering them -- > and this is not good for the FOSS movement. The GPL is better for FOSS > than is the BSD license because of this. If you want to use the GPL, go right ahead, but please don't call GPLed software `free.' It is far from `free as in free speech' because there are a large number of uses which the GPL does not allow. Calling the GPL `free' in light of this is simply an attempt to confuse the issue. Poor Richard! He led the way into free software but is now trying to hold us back as we stream past him into a future of software even freer than he ever imagined. -- Paul Hughett, gnu.misc.discuss, 2 Feb 1999 16:22:56 GMT -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 14:45:52 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:45:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Top Reasons Why NOT to Buy Windows Vista In-Reply-To: <45E1C1F0.3030403@kewlness.net> References: <45E1C1F0.3030403@kewlness.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote: > I don't want to sound anti-Microsoft, because I'm actually not. I just > dislike their OS and their business practices strongly on many levels. I guess I feel the same, but I wouldn't want to say that I'm not anti-Microsoft. It's just a company. I don't care about Microsoft at all and they don't care about me or anyone else. Vista is a nightmare and I will be staying away from it for years. I made the mistake of trying XP x64, and that has not helped me in any way that I can detect, but it has caused plenty of problems. XP (not x64) works reasonably well compared to their earlier efforts. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 15:01:14 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:01:14 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 at 09.13.48 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> I think "more power to them" is a good way of putting it. If we >> produce code that can be used within proprietary, binaries-only >> software, then we are aiding the promoters of the proprietary model -- >> empowering them -- and this is not good for the FOSS movement. The GPL >> is better for FOSS than is the BSD license because of this. > > If you want to use the GPL, go right ahead, but please don't call GPLed > software `free.' It is far from `free as in free speech' because there > are a large number of uses which the GPL does not allow. Calling the > GPL `free' in light of this is simply an attempt to confuse the issue. That is a very original and peculiar interpretation, not in keeping with anything I have read in the past. Calling it "free" is not an attempt to confuse anything - it was called "free" by Stallman from the beginning and for good reason. The BSD license is less free than the GPL because the BSD-licensed code can be captured and imprisoned in binary files where you are not allowed to access it. The GPL code remains free. > Poor Richard! He led the way into free software but is now trying to > hold us back as we stream past him into a future of software even > freer than he ever imagined. > -- Paul Hughett, gnu.misc.discuss, 2 Feb 1999 16:22:56 GMT Who is Paul Hughett? A search shows me that he is a guy who sends email messages to discussion groups, but I am not finding a reason to care about his opinion. Has he ever done something worthwhile? I am not impressed with his vague, unsupported and condescending claim. I searched dejanews and found his original message where he reveals that he had recently read the GPL for the first time and arrived at some conclusions that are well-known to be incorrect. He should have read the FAQ. He goes on to say that he is using the BSD license because he "prefers a freer license" but I think he is not considering all the types of freedom and which ones really matter. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Feb 25 15:11:28 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:11:28 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <45E1D8C7.7090708@visi.com> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <45E1D8C7.7090708@visi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, rwh wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: >> On Fri, 23 Feb 2007, rwh wrote: >> >>> I'm afraid that I don't accept that GPL is socially optimal to BSD. If >>> the GPL license inhibits the use of the code I'd rather use BSD, and >>> if someone grabs my code and finds a way to make a buck off it, more >>> power to them. >> >> I think "more power to them" is a good way of putting it. If we >> produce code that can be used within proprietary, binaries-only >> software, then we are aiding the promoters of the proprietary model -- >> empowering them -- and this is not good for the FOSS movement. The GPL >> is better for FOSS than is the BSD license because of this. >> > > My first point was simply that FOSS as a movement extends far beyond > source code. OK, but the two S's in FOSS stand for "source" and "software." Maybe a different term should be used for some of these things: > There are groups trying to free up research (PloS), gene patents (BiOS), > music, art & literature (Creative Commons), source code (GPL, BSD, > Apache), etc. If someone truly believes in the FOSS movement, it is > inconsistent to say that it is preferable to encumber IP in source with > something like GPL and then turn around and give away IP unencumbered > simply because one is covered by a copyright and the other by a patent. I don't get it. Are you saying that there is no copyright on PLoS articles, for example? I'm not tracking your idea. I think, again, that you aren't appreciating that putting a copyright on a program, no matter how restrictive, does not restrict uses of that program at all. GPL code can be used by anyone, at any time, for any purpose, without restriction. Period. > My second point is that protecting code for the sake of protecting code > is meaningless if it means that the code doesn't get used. I would argue > that the really interesting changes are being driven by open standards > rather than open source. Open source has been doing great things for us. Maybe you haven't been around long enough to appreciate this. It's an entirely different software world now, largely because of the FOSS movement. I think the future of FOSS looks very bright. I think it is better that code is not used at all than that it is used within a proprietary program that competes with a decent FOSS option. If it can't make it as FOSS, it isn't all that great and I am happy to see it die. > Offhand I can't think of anything licensed under GPL that is > sufficiently complex that the GPL can't be broken simply by producing a > new implementation to the published interface specifications; especially > by organizations with the resources of a MS, Apple, or Cisco. Look at > how quickly Cisco switched from Linux to VxWorks (a proprietary embedded > OS) when they were forced to release the Linux source they were using in > the WRT54G access points? They obviously decided that paying Wind > Rivers' royalty was 'cheaper' than using a GPL product. Why should I care about Cisco's choice? Why would I prefer to have Cisco use my code, without giving anything back to me or to the community, than to have Cisco use some other code? Mike From strayf at freeshell.org Sun Feb 25 15:57:50 2007 From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 15:57:50 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Top Reasons Why NOT to Buy Windows Vista In-Reply-To: <45E1C1F0.3030403@kewlness.net> References: <45E1C1F0.3030403@kewlness.net> Message-ID: <45E2065E.70902@freeshell.org> T.J. Duchene wrote: > [...] > So my question is: if you can't get proper gaming support, your older > hardware won't PnP, you don't want to be shackled by imcompatible > audio/video, Vista Ready hardware is having issues, and you can't even > run it in parallel with Linux using VMWare or Xen (unless you spring > for a business copy) - WHY would you really want to run Vista at all? Dunno. Guess that's why we're all on the Linux list. :) -Steve From florin at iucha.net Sun Feb 25 16:31:05 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:31:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] help with CIFS configuration: files owned by mounter, not by creator Message-ID: <20070225223105.GX29073@iucha.net> Help, I have a server and an workstation, both running Linux. The uids and gids match between them. From the server I am exporting a directory using Samba, which the root mounts as "cifs" on the workstation. mount -t cifs -o credentials=blah //server/myshare /mnt The server has the unix extensions enabled. When I list the permissions on the files under the mountpoint, everything looks fine (files owned by the right users and groups, with the expected permissions). If I try to touch a file in a directory own by myself (user florin), I get an unexpected florin at zeus $ touch foo touch: setting times of `foo': Permission denied but florin at zeus $ ls -la | grep foo -rw-r--r-- 1 root users 0 2007-02-25 16:26 foo It seems the file was created, but with the root (the account that mounted the share) as the owner. I have set "force group = users" in the smb.conf, so that explains why the group is users. Is there any way to tell samba to set the owner of the created file to the user that actually performed the creation as opposed to the user that mounted the share? Thanks, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070225/fdfcb629/attachment.pgp From tj at kewlness.net Sun Feb 25 16:33:32 2007 From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:33:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Vista (was top reasons) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45E20EBC.8020507@kewlness.net> > > Last I checked, this was a Linux list, not a "why I hate Microsoft, > but am going to say I really don't hate them" list. > Fair enough, if what I posted bothers you I apologize. Actually I sent it here because I was muttling over XEN, virtualization on Linux with Vista and the implications - because *nix OS's including Linux are doing Xen. I should have been more focus, and less of a rant perhaps. > >> #2. Vista uses DirectX 10 which is NOT compatible with DirectX 9. Since >> the majority of users who demand DirectX are gamers AND MS will be >> replacing Vista in 2 years, does MS honestly think the developers will >> switch? > > Not correct. Vista CAN use DirectX 10. However, Vista CAN ALSO use DirectX 9. > > See: > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=09f7578c-24aa-4e0a-bf91-5fec24c8c7bf&DisplayLang=en > http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb219801.aspx > I meant that software written for 10 won't function on 9 - and thus not anywhere in XP land. > > > Hopefully, I didn't just feed the troll... > Don't worry - my bad - and that's the end of this topic. I'll be more careful posting in the future. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: tj.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 117 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070225/fbe85d7b/attachment.vcf From rwh at visi.com Sun Feb 25 16:47:10 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:47:10 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <45E1D8C7.7090708@visi.com> Message-ID: <45E211EE.3040406@visi.com> Mike Miller wrote: > Open source has been doing great things for us. Maybe you haven't been > around long enough to appreciate this. It's an entirely different > software world now, largely because of the FOSS movement. I think the > future of FOSS looks very bright. > I've been writing code since the late '60's so I've seen most stuff go by three or four times already :-) People had been donating software to the 'cause' for quite some time before RMS published his Dr. Dobbs article in '85. And trust me, I've been in enough development meetings to know that wrapping code in a layer of political dogma and legal ambiguity doesn't make it any easier to sell to management. > I think it is better that code is not used at all than that it is used > within a proprietary program that competes with a decent FOSS option. > If it can't make it as FOSS, it isn't all that great and I am happy to > see it die. > I guess we'll have to disagree and each license our code as we see fit. --rick From chewie at wookimus.net Sun Feb 25 17:12:53 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:12:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] help with CIFS configuration: files owned by mounter, not by creator In-Reply-To: <20070225223105.GX29073@iucha.net> References: <20070225223105.GX29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: <20070225231253.GA12698@skuld.wookimus.net> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 04:31:05PM -0600, Florin Iucha wrote: > I have a server and an workstation, both running Linux. The uids and > gids match between them. From the server I am exporting a directory > using Samba, which the root mounts as "cifs" on the workstation. > > mount -t cifs -o credentials=blah //server/myshare /mnt I believe you have to specify uid/gid in the -o as well. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ From florin at iucha.net Sun Feb 25 19:22:09 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:22:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] help with CIFS configuration: files owned by mounter, not by creator In-Reply-To: <20070225231253.GA12698@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <20070225223105.GX29073@iucha.net> <20070225231253.GA12698@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <20070226012209.GY29073@iucha.net> On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:12:53PM -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 04:31:05PM -0600, Florin Iucha wrote: > > I have a server and an workstation, both running Linux. The uids and > > gids match between them. From the server I am exporting a directory > > using Samba, which the root mounts as "cifs" on the workstation. > > > > mount -t cifs -o credentials=blah //server/myshare /mnt > > I believe you have to specify uid/gid in the -o as well. From the mount.cifs(8) uid=arg sets the uid that will own all files on the mounted filesystem. It may be specified as either a username or a numeric uid. This parame? ter is ignored when the target server supports the CIFS Unix exten? sions. gid=arg sets the gid that will own all files on the mounted filesystem. It may be specified as either a groupname or a numeric gid. This param? eter is ignored when the target server supports the CIFS Unix exten? sions. 1. I am using the CIFS Unix Extensions. 2. I do not want only one user to own all files. I want the owner of the files to be the creator and not the mounter. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070225/2efd0d6a/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 08:58:50 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:58:50 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <45E211EE.3040406@visi.com> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <45E1D8C7.7090708@visi.com> <45E211EE.3040406@visi.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, rwh wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: > >> Open source has been doing great things for us. Maybe you haven't been >> around long enough to appreciate this. It's an entirely different >> software world now, largely because of the FOSS movement. I think the >> future of FOSS looks very bright. > > I've been writing code since the late '60's so I've seen most stuff go > by three or four times already :-) People had been donating software to > the 'cause' for quite some time before RMS published his Dr. Dobbs > article in '85. And trust me, I've been in enough development meetings > to know that wrapping code in a layer of political dogma and legal > ambiguity doesn't make it any easier to sell to management. Sorry that I guessed your age wrong. But do you disagree with my assertion about the current success and bright future of FOSS? >> I think it is better that code is not used at all than that it is used >> within a proprietary program that competes with a decent FOSS option. >> If it can't make it as FOSS, it isn't all that great and I am happy to >> see it die. > > I guess we'll have to disagree and each license our code as we see fit. Unless one of us can persuade the other. Here's an article on the superiority BSD license that includes a bunch of historical info: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/article.html Midway through that document (Section 5) the author presents "some rules of thumb when using the GPL." The first one states "you cannot sell the software itself." But that is not true. From the GPL FAQ: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.) In "What a license cannot do" he makes claims about Mattel and Cygnus that are misleading. The Mattel case didn't get anywhere -- that was back in 2000 and cphack is still freely available on the 'net. If Cygnus "[took] over development of the FSF compiler tools," I think that is a good thing because it means that a company that might have historically made more money under a proprietary business model is instead contributing to a GPL code base. No one can really "take over" a GPL'd project. In Section 10 "BSD Advantages," the author writes about Apache as if Apache is distributed under the BSD license. It is not. In fact, the Apache license is quite similar to the GPL and might be compatible with GPL 3, if not GPL 2: http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html It seems to have nothing to do with the BSD license. In the end, the author of this article basically suggests that the sole advantage of the BSD license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who want to use a proprietary model of software development. In other words, the BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from your code without giving back any code to the developer community. What's good about that? Mike From josh at tcbug.org Mon Feb 26 08:58:25 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 08:58:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <45E211EE.3040406@visi.com> References: <45E211EE.3040406@visi.com> Message-ID: <200702260858.26044.josh@tcbug.org> On Sunday 25 February 2007 16:47, rwh wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: > > Open source has been doing great things for us. Maybe you > > haven't been around long enough to appreciate this. It's an > > entirely different software world now, largely because of the > > FOSS movement. I think the future of FOSS looks very bright. > > I've been writing code since the late '60's so I've seen most stuff > go by three or four times already :-) People had been donating > software to the 'cause' for quite some time before RMS published > his Dr. Dobbs article in '85. And trust me, I've been in enough > development meetings to know that wrapping code in a layer of > political dogma and legal ambiguity doesn't make it any easier to > sell to management. > > > I think it is better that code is not used at all than that it is > > used within a proprietary program that competes with a decent > > FOSS option. If it can't make it as FOSS, it isn't all that great > > and I am happy to see it die. > > I guess we'll have to disagree and each license our code as we see > fit. > > --rick Professionally I work for a company that distributes a product based on both open and closed source code. It goes out the door as a sort of kiosk. The operating system is heavily based on FreesBIE which is of course heavily based on FreeBSD. A lot of work I do on the FreesBIE parts of the system are made available to the FreesBIE people to incorporate into their project. (It's getting to the point where it's looking like I might end up with commit access to their repository actually...) But by the same token, it's a kiosk machine for a very specialized purpose and having to distribute the source code to it would be a needless expense, not to mention there are some tricks in there we're really not ready to 'give away'. So you can see that the BSDL is highly attractive to us, in fact the GPL essentially makes code under that license unusable to us. So I guess you have to ask yourself the question: As a developer, if you want your code to get use, which license makes more sense? I've been using OSS since before the term existed. I remember installing linux before it had an installer, when it needed minix to bootstrap. linux's viability as an OS early on was heavily dependant on a reasonably complete userland from GNU that could get dropped in to the system. It's interesting to note that linux can borrow BSD licensed code far easier than any of the BSD projects can borrow linux/GPL code and that various linux camps have started projects to graft big chunks of BSD into linux (ala the gentoo-freebsd project or the now defunct debian-bsd project) or maybe it's graft chunks of linux into BSD? Maybe Microsoft wouldn't have the market dominance they have today if they hadn't been able to graft the BSD TCP stack into their OS, maybe the world would be a better place if the BSD TCP stack was really GPLd....although I'm not quite sure how. Having to write their own stack would've kept windows off the internet and contributed to their lack of viability as an OS? I find that unlikely. Realistically, I have nothing against FOSS, there isn't a single piece of non-FOSS software I use personally, but by the same token I make my living writing some code that has to be kept proprietary and this world without closed source software would cut out a very profitable part of my business. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 09:13:21 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:13:21 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" Message-ID: Dear Bruce: I just read your article here: http://www.freebsd.org/doc/en_US.ISO8859-1/articles/bsdl-gpl/article.html Midway through that document (Section 5) you present "some rules of thumb when using the GPL." The first one states "you cannot sell the software itself." But that is not true. From the GPL FAQ: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money? Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.) In "What a license cannot do" you make claims about Mattel and Cygnus that are misleading. The Mattel case didn't get anywhere -- that was back in 2000 and cphack is still freely available on the 'net. If Cygnus "[took] over development of the FSF compiler tools," I think that is a good thing because it means that a company that might have historically made more money under a proprietary business model is instead contributing to a GPL code base. No one can really "take over" a GPL'd project -- it is just a fork, and if it is a good fork it may become predominant, but that is not a "take over." In the end, you basically suggest that the sole advantage of the BSD license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who want to use a proprietary model of software development. In other words, the BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from our code without giving back any code to the developer community. What's good about that? That clearly is the core issue. Couldn't you have left off nearly everything else and just told the reader why he should want his code to be used in proprietary software projects that compete with open source projects? Regards, Mike -- Michael B. Miller, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Division of Epidemiology and Community Health and Institute of Human Genetics University of Minnesota http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 09:15:46 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:15:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <45E1D8C7.7090708@visi.com> <45E211EE.3040406@visi.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Mike Miller wrote: > In Section 10 "BSD Advantages," the author writes about Apache as if > Apache is distributed under the BSD license. It is not. In fact, the > Apache license is quite similar to the GPL and might be compatible with > GPL 3, if not GPL 2: > > http://www.apache.org/licenses/GPL-compatibility.html > > It seems to have nothing to do with the BSD license. I will now retract that claim because the BSD license is GPL compatible and I'm not sure exactly how the Apache license compares with GPL and BSD. So Bruce Montague probably had that one right. Mike From sac at cheesecake.org Mon Feb 26 09:27:00 2007 From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:27:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 at 15.01.14 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 25 Feb 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 at 09.13.48 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > > > I think "more power to them" is a good way of putting it. If we > > > produce code that can be used within proprietary, binaries-only > > > software, then we are aiding the promoters of the proprietary model > > > -- empowering them -- and this is not good for the FOSS movement. > > > The GPL is better for FOSS than is the BSD license because of this. > > > > If you want to use the GPL, go right ahead, but please don't call > > GPLed software `free.' It is far from `free as in free speech' because > > there are a large number of uses which the GPL does not allow. > > Calling the GPL `free' in light of this is simply an attempt to > > confuse the issue. > > That is a very original and peculiar interpretation, not in keeping > with anything I have read in the past. Calling it "free" is not an > attempt to confuse anything - it was called "free" by Stallman from > the beginning and for good reason. The BSD license is less free than > the GPL because the BSD-licensed code can be captured and imprisoned > in binary files where you are not allowed to access it. The GPL code > remains free. Again, this is a confusion. BSD code always remains free even if someone makes their own closed-source fork. Sun can take OpenSSH and release a binary version, but that doesn't affect my ability to download the source code from openssh.com. OpenSSH will always remain free irrespective of what Sun or anyone else does. The only thing I can't get are Sun's changes because they are owned by Sun. If getting other people and companies to work for you for free is your goal though, then you will probably want to follow the example of the RIAA/DRM lobby and wrap your code in a restrictive license like the GPL. This way, people who want to use your software will be required to use it only in the ways you permit. -- Sidney CAMMERESI http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/ From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 09:26:47 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:26:47 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <200702260858.26044.josh@tcbug.org> References: <45E211EE.3040406@visi.com> <200702260858.26044.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Josh Paetzel wrote: > So you can see that the BSDL is highly attractive to us, in fact the GPL > essentially makes code under that license unusable to us. So I guess > you have to ask yourself the question: As a developer, if you want your > code to get use, which license makes more sense? Compare the Linux kernel (GPL) with the FreeBSD kernel (BSDL). Which gets more use? Sure, the BSDL is attractive to proprietary development and use, but the GPL is more attractive to developers who do not want to contribute their efforts to a proprietary project. This is why I think the GPL has been so successful. > Maybe Microsoft wouldn't have the market dominance they have today if > they hadn't been able to graft the BSD TCP stack into their OS, maybe > the world would be a better place if the BSD TCP stack was really > GPLd....although I'm not quite sure how. Having to write their own > stack would've kept windows off the internet and contributed to their > lack of viability as an OS? I find that unlikely. It's not a matter of stopping Microsoft cold in their tracks. The effect isn't all or nothing -- Microsoft thrives or perishes -- it's a matter of degree. If Microsoft weren't better off (and in a better position to fight against the GNU project and FSF) because of their use of the BSD TCP stack code, they wouldn't have used it. They used it because it helped them to make more money, to remain strong, and to continue to compete against Linux, FreeBSD and every other option on the market. > Realistically, I have nothing against FOSS, there isn't a single piece > of non-FOSS software I use personally, but by the same token I make my > living writing some code that has to be kept proprietary and this world > without closed source software would cut out a very profitable part of > my business. Developers who are concerned with promoting your business and aiding your profitability will then want to distribute their code under the BSDL, or maybe they'll just send it to you directly. Those developers who want to contribute to the advancement of the FOSS movement should use the GPL. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 09:40:38 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:40:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> References: <200702220908.33365.josh@tcbug.org> <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > BSD code always remains free even if someone makes their own > closed-source fork. Sun can take OpenSSH and release a binary version, > but that doesn't affect my ability to download the source code from > openssh.com. OpenSSH will always remain free irrespective of what Sun > or anyone else does. In your scenario, the OpenSSH released by Sun does not remain free, but if it had been GPL'd, then Sun would have to keep it free. > The only thing I can't get are Sun's changes because they are owned by > Sun. If getting other people and companies to work for you for free is > your goal though, Of course I would want them to work "for me" (or for the project) on further development of code I have produced. A better way to say it is that Sun would be working *with* me or collaborating with me instead of working for me. Sun would benefit by getting use of my code and I would benefit from Sun's contributions to my code base. That sounds all good to me. In the alternative BSDL approach, which you seem to prefer, Sun uses my code, sells a competing product based on my code, takes away some of my users, reduces the interest in my product, and they give me nothing in return. That does not sound better to me, so I would prefer the GPL to the BSDL. > then you will probably want to follow the example of the RIAA/DRM lobby > and wrap your code in a restrictive license like the GPL. Interesting. The RIAA is using the GPL? Or are you saying that GPL is a form of DRM? I guess I'm wasting my time here -- go read up on it and then get back to us. > This way, people who want to use your software will be required to use > it only in the ways you permit. The GPL doesn't restrict uses of code, it just restricts how it can be copied and distributed. You can use a program for any purpose at all (e.g., use Emacs to write anti-GPL messages). Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 09:45:57 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:45:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG-list message processing and flowed text Message-ID: When I send messages to the list, they have this in the header: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed But when they come back to me from the list, they have this in the header instead: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Does this mean that flowed text is not allowed on the list? I also see that the spaces before newlines (used to designate flowing of text) have all been removed. Are we doing this on purpose? Flowed text is nice when different readers have different screen widths. The flowing should help. Mike From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Mon Feb 26 09:59:25 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:59:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] National Open Centre Message-ID: <45E2AF41.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> Interesting new think tank in the UK: http://www.nationalopencentre.org.uk/ From tclug at beitsahour.net Mon Feb 26 10:08:29 2007 From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:08:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] help with CIFS configuration: files owned by mounter, not by creator References: <20070225223105.GX29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: Florin Iucha writes: > I have a server and an workstation, both running Linux. The uids and > gids match between them. From the server I am exporting a directory > using Samba, which the root mounts as "cifs" on the workstation. > > mount -t cifs -o credentials=blah //server/myshare /mnt > > The server has the unix extensions enabled. The problem with samba is that it merges windows and unix IDs and fudges them together. samba handles the windows ID side of thing, the filesystem handled the unix side of things and they need to match or you will get the problem that you are having. Samba is SUID root, and will SUID to the user that you logged in as. (unless you use the force options) my guess is that the directory is owned by root and only root can create the file, samba creates the file (because it is root) and at some point suids to the logged in user to change the permissions and allow you write access where you get the permission denied errors. -- Munir Nassar From florin at iucha.net Mon Feb 26 10:28:46 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:28:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> References: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> Message-ID: <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 09:27:00AM -0600, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > The only thing I can't get are Sun's changes because they are owned > by Sun. If getting other people and companies to work for you for free > is your goal though, No, I want the $company to pay me back in kind. My code is libre, not gratis. Freedom in software means _my_ freedom to use the computers I've paid for in whatever way I want. It does not mean absence of cost. I pay for the hardware and I also "pay" by writing software that others can use. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070226/55fe9f03/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Feb 26 10:41:34 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 10:41:34 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> References: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <200702230002.23410.jus@krytosvirus.com> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 26 Feb 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 09:27:00AM -0600, Sidney Cammeresi wrote: > >> The only thing I can't get are Sun's changes because they are owned by >> Sun. If getting other people and companies to work for you for free is >> your goal though, > > No, I want the $company to pay me back in kind. My code is libre, not > gratis. > > Freedom in software means _my_ freedom to use the computers I've paid > for in whatever way I want. It does not mean absence of cost. I pay for > the hardware and I also "pay" by writing software that others can use. Excellent point. Mike From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Mon Feb 26 11:06:29 2007 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 11:06:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Virtualization [WAS: Vista (was top reasons)] In-Reply-To: <45E20EBC.8020507@kewlness.net> References: <45E20EBC.8020507@kewlness.net> Message-ID: <20070226110629.388a41c4@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net> On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:33:32 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > Actually I sent it here because I was muttling over XEN, > virtualization on Linux with Vista and the implications - because > *nix OS's including Linux are doing Xen. Speaking of which - have you tried VirtualBox http://www.virtualbox.org/ ? I'm quite impressed with it, has a similar feel to VMWare and so far works great. Josh From jpschewe at mtu.net Tue Feb 27 07:13:31 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:13:31 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 09:13 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > In the end, you basically suggest that the sole advantage of the BSD > license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who want > to use a proprietary model of software development. In other words, the > BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from our code > without giving back any code to the developer community. What's good > about that? That clearly is the core issue. Couldn't you have left off > nearly everything else and just told the reader why he should want his > code to be used in proprietary software projects that compete with open > source projects? What about people that want to use your project and are willing to give back to the project patches to improve the project, but are unable to open source the software they are writing that uses your project? ________________________________________________________________________ Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe Help Jen and I fight cancer by donating to the Leukemia & Lymphomia Society Here's our website: http://www.active.com/donate/tntmn/tntmnJSchewe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/a3d50f0c/attachment.pgp From florin at iucha.net Tue Feb 27 07:30:29 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:30:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> Message-ID: <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:13:31AM -0600, Jon Schewe wrote: > On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 09:13 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > > In the end, you basically suggest that the sole advantage of the BSD > > license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who want > > to use a proprietary model of software development. In other words, the > > BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from our code > > without giving back any code to the developer community. What's good > > about that? That clearly is the core issue. Couldn't you have left off > > nearly everything else and just told the reader why he should want his > > code to be used in proprietary software projects that compete with open > > source projects? > > What about people that want to use your project and are willing to give > back to the project patches to improve the project, but are unable to > open source the software they are writing that uses your project? What about them? Why would they be unable? If they are unable to open-source the project (because they are just programmers and not managers/vice-presidents) then maybe they don't have the authority to commit the company on using the free software in the first place. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/b6c6a75f/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 07:44:16 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:44:16 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Jon Schewe wrote: > On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 09:13 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> In the end, you basically suggest that the sole advantage of the BSD >> license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who >> want to use a proprietary model of software development. In other >> words, the BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from >> our code without giving back any code to the developer community. >> What's good about that? That clearly is the core issue. Couldn't you >> have left off nearly everything else and just told the reader why he >> should want his code to be used in proprietary software projects that >> compete with open source projects? > > What about people that want to use your project and are willing to give > back to the project patches to improve the project, but are unable to > open source the software they are writing that uses your project? If they give back the patches, they've "open sourced" their code, or do you mean that they send back patches without the permission to use them? I don't quite understand the situation you are trying to describe. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 07:45:32 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 07:45:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:13:31AM -0600, Jon Schewe wrote: >> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 09:13 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: >>> In the end, you basically suggest that the sole advantage of the BSD >>> license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who want >>> to use a proprietary model of software development. In other words, the >>> BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from our code >>> without giving back any code to the developer community. What's good >>> about that? That clearly is the core issue. Couldn't you have left off >>> nearly everything else and just told the reader why he should want his >>> code to be used in proprietary software projects that compete with open >>> source projects? >> >> What about people that want to use your project and are willing to give >> back to the project patches to improve the project, but are unable to >> open source the software they are writing that uses your project? > > What about them? > > Why would they be unable? If they are unable to open-source the > project (because they are just programmers and not > managers/vice-presidents) then maybe they don't have the authority to > commit the company on using the free software in the first place. Or the authority to send back patches to improve the project. Mike From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Tue Feb 27 09:52:52 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:52:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: <45E3FF35.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> >>> On 2/27/2007 at 7:45 AM, in message , Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:13:31AM -0600, Jon Schewe wrote: >>> On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 09:13 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: >>>> In the end, you basically suggest that the sole advantage of the BSD >>>> license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who want >>>> to use a proprietary model of software development. In other words, the >>>> BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from our code >>>> without giving back any code to the developer community. What's good >>>> about that? That clearly is the core issue. Couldn't you have left off >>>> nearly everything else and just told the reader why he should want his >>>> code to be used in proprietary software projects that compete with open >>>> source projects? >>> >>> What about people that want to use your project and are willing to give >>> back to the project patches to improve the project, but are unable to >>> open source the software they are writing that uses your project? >> >> What about them? >> Why would they be unable? If they are unable to open-source the >> project (because they are just programmers and not >> managers/vice-presidents) then maybe they don't have the authority to >> commit the company on using the free software in the first place. > > Or the authority to send back patches to improve the project. > Mike They may be using another piece of software, as part of their project, with an entirely different license (not the GPL) that may not allow them to license their entire project however they wish (similar to the GPL). And yet they may have full authority to license and send the code and patches THEY write to whomever they wish. Where licenses collide, the GPL can make headaches, where the BSD license can resolve them. That's not a blanket endorsement of the BSD license, but just one use for it. I prefer the GPL for things I do, when it makes sense. Lucky, for me, it usually does. :-) Troy From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 10:14:21 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:14:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> The fact that all of you have been arguing for this long over the GPL goes a long way toward showing that the thing it to complicated for anyone without a law degree to safely touch. Also, you have left an important aspect out of all of the arguing over what is better. What if your goal is to have standards? When I worked in the Mayo Clinic informatics division we wouldn't touch the GPL - because we wanted our code to be free to everyone - profit or non-profit. Our goal was to standardize the way that everyone accessed terminologies. If we couldn't get the commercial companies involved with our standards, then we were dead in the water. We used the Apache license (and later, the Eclipse Public License) - specifically because they allowed commercial use of the code - without requiring you to open your own code. This allowed us to have interactions with companies such as IBM - they provided a lot of support to us in debugging some issues on DB2 - because they wanted to be able to use our code. On a similar front - if the Open Office document specifications and implementations were GPL, Microsoft could not ever (reasonably) provide the ability to read or write those formats - even if a government body tells them to. Which explains a lot of why ODF is released under LGPL rather than GPL. If the ODF supporters can walk into a gov't body and tell them that Microsoft can easily support writing to ODF from MSWord - all they have to do it force them to make the business decision to do it - it's an easy sell. If they have to tell them that Microsoft can't support ODF unless they GPL all of MSWord - do you really think they are going to get very far? Apache and Eclipse are two very large and growing software ecosystems. You know why? No GPL! Ton's of commercial companies use their software! And many of those commercial companies have people that spend time fixing bugs in that same software. Like me, for one. GPL is not about free. Its about an impossible to achieve pipe dream. It says that you are not entitled to payment, if you choose, for your work. There is, and always will be a place for commercial software. Declaring commercial software the enemy is not the solution. Quite simply, there are some applications that require massive amounts of money to develop. Forbidding people from charging for the end result does not help create more GPL code. It only makes the existing GPL code that may have been useful, go completely unused. How about tax software? When when do you suppose that the GPL is going to end up providing us with a way to do our taxes? How about never. Do you know how much money it takes to write software to accurately do taxes? The only way we would ever potentially have open source tooling like this is if the gov't funded the development - and then - why would the gov't use a GPL license? Commercial companies should have ever right to build on top of the software as well - just because they want to improve it doesn't mean that they should be forced to give away their improvements. The un-improved code is still available to everyone, just like before... Dan From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 10:16:39 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:16:39 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <45E3FF35.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> <45E3FF35.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Troy.A Johnson wrote: > Where licenses collide, the GPL can make headaches, where the BSD > license can resolve them. I'm sure that's true. For example, the BSDL is GPL compatible, but the GPL is not BSDL compatible. So code can flow from FreeBSD to GNU/Linux but not vice versa, or so I'm told. In fact, that is probably why the BSD web site is carrying the article claiming that the BSDL is superior to the GPL -- it is better for FreeBSD if you license under the BSDL instead of the GPL. One major question unresolved for me: If code is distributed under the BSDL and it is used within a proprietary program, does that program then have to be distributed under the BSDL? Can anyone take the code and change the license? Are we allowed to choose a different license for the binary than for the source that was used to build it? Mike From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Feb 27 10:44:23 2007 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:44:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? Message-ID: <1172594663.30987.1176792115@webmail.messagingengine.com> ----- Original message ----- From: "Isaac Atilano" To: "Dan Armbrust" Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:41:03 -0600 Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? On Tue, 27 Feb 2007 10:14:21 -0600, "Dan Armbrust" said: > > Also, you have left an important aspect out of all of the arguing over > what is better. What if your goal is to have standards? When I > worked in the Mayo Clinic informatics division we wouldn't touch the > GPL - because we wanted our code to be free to everyone - profit or > non-profit. Our goal was to standardize the way that everyone > accessed terminologies. If we couldn't get the commercial companies > involved with our standards, then we were dead in the water. We used > the Apache license (and later, the Eclipse Public License) - > specifically because they allowed commercial use of the code - without > requiring you to open your own code. This allowed us to have > interactions with companies such as IBM - they provided a lot of > support to us in debugging some issues on DB2 - because they wanted to > be able to use our code. GPL code IS free for everyone, profit and non-profit. It doesn't make sense that you avoid GPL so that your code can be free to everyone. You can make your code as free as you want without IBM's cooperation. It seems what you want here is cooperation with IBM so that more people can use your code not so your code can be free. From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Tue Feb 27 11:10:25 2007 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:10:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> References: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45E41161.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> >>> On 2/27/2007 at 10:14 AM, in message <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030 at mail.gmail.com>, "Dan Armbrust" wrote: > The fact that all of you have been arguing for this long over the GPL > goes a long way toward showing that the thing it to complicated for > anyone without a law degree to safely touch. Software licensing can be a complicated thing. The GPL is a software license. A person, without a law degree, who thinks they are "safe" because they choose an "uncomplicated" software license may be deluding themselves. > Also, you have left an important aspect out of all of the arguing over > what is better. What if your goal is to have standards? When I > worked in the Mayo Clinic informatics division we wouldn't touch the > GPL - because we wanted our code to be free to everyone - profit or ... > On a similar front - if the Open Office document specifications and > implementations were GPL, Microsoft could not ever (reasonably) > provide the ability to read or write those formats - even if a > government body tells them to. Which explains a lot of why ODF is ... > Apache and Eclipse are two very large and growing software ecosystems. > You know why? No GPL! Ton's of commercial companies use their > software! And many of those commercial companies have people that ... > forced to give away their improvements. The un-improved code is still > available to everyone, just like before... The GPL is reasonably restrictive software license created with a set of goals in mind. You don't have to agree with those goals, but the fact that the GPL conflicts with the goals of the Mayo Clinic, Open Office, Apache, and Eclipse organizations for any or all of software they produce does not diminish the GPL as a useful and effective tool in accomplishing the goals of the FSF. It may help you accomplish some goal of yours at some future time. Who knows? I myself am comforted that I have a list of so many licenses to choose from when I set myself to the task of licensing. And I am glad to have the GPL in that list. That's just my take. Troy From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Feb 27 11:37:00 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:37:00 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> Message-ID: <20070227173700.GE7896@skuld.wookimus.net> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 07:13:31AM -0600, Jon Schewe wrote: > What about people that want to use your project and are willing to > give back to the project patches to improve the project, but are > unable to open source the software they are writing that uses your > project? A couple things have to occur to force their hand into opening up their source code. The program must be a derivative of the GPL covered software AND it must be distributed to a 3rd party. Distributing to an employee's computer is not considered distributing to a 3rd party. 1. Software must be a derivative: They have to link to the project's libraries or binaries. Note, this says "link", not execute. This indicates that they're calling the library directly in their application. Executing an application and working with the published interfaces (stdio, sockets, pipes, protocol-based interaction), is not a violation of GPL copyright licenses. 2. Software must be distributed: If they do link to the project's libraries or binaries, they must also distribute the software in some manner for the license to be in effect. You can write all the software you want in private, even in terms of Company assets. However, if you ship a program to customers or end-users, you are obligated to live up to the GPL. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/44626c41/attachment.pgp From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Feb 27 11:43:44 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:43:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> <45E3FF35.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> Message-ID: <20070227174344.GF7896@skuld.wookimus.net> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 10:16:39AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > One major question unresolved for me: If code is distributed under > the BSDL and it is used within a proprietary program, does that > program then have to be distributed under the BSDL? No. > Can anyone take the code and change the license? Yes. > Are we allowed to choose a different license for the binary than for > the source that was used to build it? Yes, though Copyright notices must remain in-tact. Full details found here: http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php The only thing that BSD license does above Public Domain is enforce the need to give attribution to the original copyright holders. This can also be done using Creative Commons 3.0 Attribution license, but may actually stand up to international law. http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/c80debff/attachment.pgp From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Feb 27 11:52:53 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 11:52:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] GPL and tax law (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and use?) In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> References: <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070227175253.GG7896@skuld.wookimus.net> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 10:14:21AM -0600, Dan Armbrust wrote: > How about tax software? When when do you suppose that the GPL is > going to end up providing us with a way to do our taxes? I think it would be a great idea, actually. The use-case and unit-testing required to accurately represent tax law would likely show the glaring and subtle flaws, promoting the flat-tax rate that we already pay here in the US (approximately 40% if you're wondering). Having it as GPL would guarantee that I would always have access to the applications and source code. If you were to write the software, you could easily be considered GOD and DEVIL by software companies in the industry. They would sue you into oblivion for vague patents that they have squirreled away for just this occasion... Wait, now I'm being fatalistic. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/9f439a0c/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 12:01:35 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:01:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> References: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Dan Armbrust wrote: > The fact that all of you have been arguing for this long over the GPL > goes a long way toward showing that the thing it to complicated for > anyone without a law degree to safely touch. I don't think the problem is that the GPL is hard to understand, I think the problem is that many people haven't tried to understand it. I found it very easy to understand. Also, we are mostly arguing about the relative benefits of GPL and BSDL, and there is a legitimate argument there even for people who know exactly what they are talking about (and even if they are lawyers). A person who is considering the GPL and needs a lawyer to understand it should consult a lawyer before rejecting the GPL as an option. > Also, you have left an important aspect out of all of the arguing over > what is better. What if your goal is to have standards? Sure -- that might be a good reason to choose BSDL instead of GPL. I think you are talking about software that implements a standard that you want to promote. If you want to give something away and you don't want to get anything back, and you don't mind competition from proprietary software, the BSDL is a good choice. In your case, it sounds like proprietary software wouldn't really be competition, but it would actually help you to promote your standard. That's great, so you chose not to use GPL and that was probably a good choice. > This allowed us to have interactions with companies such as IBM - they > provided a lot of support to us in debugging some issues on DB2 - > because they wanted to be able to use our code. Clarification: Did IBM say that they would not have been interested in your code if it had been released under the GPL? IBM has been very supportive of Linux (GPL), so I don't think that would kill their interest. > On a similar front - if the Open Office document specifications and > implementations were GPL, Microsoft could not ever (reasonably) provide > the ability to read or write those formats - even if a government body > tells them to. I don't know if specifications can be copyrighted, but specific implementations can be. I believe Microsoft developed their own version of ODF-like specification: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Open_XML > Which explains a lot of why ODF is released under LGPL rather than GPL. Do you have a reference on that? I can't find anything about a license for ODF. Are you sure you aren't thinking of a specific program that implements ODF? > If the ODF supporters can walk into a gov't body and tell them that > Microsoft can easily support writing to ODF from MSWord - all they have > to do it force them to make the business decision to do it - it's an > easy sell. If they have to tell them that Microsoft can't support ODF > unless they GPL all of MSWord - do you really think they are going to > get very far? I don't understand what you are talking about? Microsoft has dealt with this. I'm sure it wasn't a big deal. We don't need to give free code to Microsoft before they can accomplish a simple conversion to ODF. Microsoft doesn't want to support anyone's standards but their own and I don't think free availability of a code base is affecting their choices about ODF. > Apache and Eclipse are two very large and growing software ecosystems. > You know why? No GPL! Ton's of commercial companies use their > software! And many of those commercial companies have people that spend > time fixing bugs in that same software. Like me, for one. That is another peculiar and unsupportable claim. Why would you think that Apache is successful because it is not under the GPL? I think it is because Apache is a nice program. Many nice programs are distributed under the GPL and they are successful. > GPL is not about free. Its about an impossible to achieve pipe dream. That's a peculiar statement. Really, some of you guys say the craziest things. GPL (as compared to BSDL) is about encouraging people to help a project to grow. If I write some code, distribute it under the GPL, and someone sends me a patch or some additional code to be incorporated under the GPL, then it has succeeded and the GPL has made my dream come true. The GPL offers more encouragement for future development than does the BSDL. You might call it a "viral quality" of the GPL that the BSDL lacks. > It says that you are not entitled to payment, if you choose, for your > work. > There is, and always will be a place for commercial software. Irrelevant. > Declaring commercial software the enemy is not the solution. "the solution?" A commercial (proprietary!) product may be a competitor and if you want to call a competitor "the enemy," fine. Then proprietary software is the enemy. I don't know what it solves to say so, but that is true if you define "enemy" to include your competitors. > Quite simply, there are some applications that require massive amounts > of money to develop. Forbidding people from charging for the end result > does not help create more GPL code. It only makes the existing GPL code > that may have been useful, go completely unused. What requires "massive amounts of money to develop?" Can you give an example. I can't envision a software project that is not doable under the GPL. It might take more time, of course. Also, the fact that something is GPL doesn't mean it can't have massive amounts of money behind it. For example, governments can produce GPL software. I can write a grant to NIH and get hundreds of thousands of dollars to support software development. > How about tax software? When when do you suppose that the GPL is going > to end up providing us with a way to do our taxes? How about never. When will BSDL be providing this software? If it is never provided as FOSS, then proprietary programs are not competitors. I am not saying that there should be no proprietary software, but I am saying that I will always prefer a FOSS option, other things being equal (and they aren't equal so I go for FOSS before it's as good for me as proprietary, but I still use proprietary software every day). It would be possible for federal and state governments to provide tax software under GPL or compatible license. They might not do it because of the proprietary lobby, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. > Do you know how much money it takes to write software to accurately do > taxes? The only way we would ever potentially have open source tooling > like this is if the gov't funded the development - and then - why would > the gov't use a GPL license? Commercial companies should have ever > right to build on top of the software as well - just because they want > to improve it doesn't mean that they should be forced to give away their > improvements. The un-improved code is still available to everyone, just > like before... That seems like a reasonable suggestion, actually. The government software would be produced by the government for use by others and there would be no requirement to make the code from resulting product available to the government. Sounds like a win-win. Of course, in this situation, the original developer is not trying to encourage contributions from a developer community. I would say that you had two good ideas sandwiched within a bunch of emotional baloney. Why can't we just make suggestions and explain now things work without resorting to extreme talk about "pipe dreams" and other unsupported (and probably unsupportable) claims? It is also good to admit to doubt when doubt exists because none of us are the top expert on these issues, nor are we expected to be. Again: When developing a FOSS program that you want to promote and where you would like to encourage a community of developers to contribute, I see no advantage for the BSDL over the GPL. I see the GPL as superior in that it encourages development and prohibits use of the code in a proprietary competitor. Therefore, I will always use the GPL in my work because I am always trying to encourage others to contribute. I am working on developing software for scientific uses (e.g., simulation of genetic data for research on methods of genetic analysis). Mike From jpschewe at mtu.net Tue Feb 27 12:16:31 2007 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:16:31 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <20070227173700.GE7896@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227173700.GE7896@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <1172600191.16900.26.camel@mn65-eggplant.htc.honeywell.com> On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 11:37 -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: > 1. Software must be a derivative: > > They have to link to the project's libraries or binaries. Note, > this says "link", not execute. This indicates that they're calling > the library directly in their application. Executing an application > and working with the published interfaces (stdio, sockets, pipes, > protocol-based interaction), is not a violation of GPL copyright > licenses. This is where I usually run into problems. It's not that I want to modify an open-source project to make a proprietary application, but rather I'd like to build upon an open-source library to avoid doing the same thing again and finding the same bugs as someone else and for compatibility with standards, like the BSD TCP stack. LGPL usually solves this, but there are quite a few projects that are only GPL still. ________________________________________________________________________ Jon Schewe | http://www.mtu.net/~jpschewe Help Jen and I fight cancer by donating to the Leukemia & Lymphomia Society Here's our website: http://www.active.com/tntmn/tntmnJSchewe -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/bbc62dce/attachment.pgp From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Feb 27 12:21:34 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:21:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Tax Software (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and use?) In-Reply-To: References: <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070227182134.GI7896@skuld.wookimus.net> A Newsforge article from last year titled "Few Linux, FOSS alternatives at tax time" does a pretty good job to give you an idea on GPL and FOSS projects for tax software: http://software.newsforge.com/software/06/03/16/1625215.shtml?tid=130 Software highlighted in the article: * Open Tax Solver: http://opentaxsolver.sourceforge.net/ * Tax Code Software Foundation (TCSF): http://www.taxcodesoftware.org/ * gnuTaxes (in danger of becoming a dead project): http://gnutaxes.sourceforge.net/ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/54f03083/attachment.pgp From admin at lctn.org Tue Feb 27 12:33:35 2007 From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:33:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] managing web users Message-ID: <4600.64.8.148.4.1172601215.squirrel@lctn.org> I am looking for a web based tool to add, edit, and delete users from an .htpasswd file. I have tried a couple (admuser& htpasswd.cgi), but both are giving me errors I cannot find a solution to. Is there one that comes highly recommended? Raymond -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From tclug at beitsahour.net Tue Feb 27 12:43:08 2007 From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:43:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] managing web users References: <4600.64.8.148.4.1172601215.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: admin at lctn.org writes: > I am looking for a web based tool to add, edit, and delete users from an > .htpasswd file. I have tried a couple (admuser& htpasswd.cgi), but both > are giving me errors I cannot find a solution to. Is there one that comes > highly recommended? i've used http://patch.be/htpasstool/ and it worked well for me i've hacked on it quite a bit to make it fit my needs better, it was very easy to play with. From rwh at visi.com Tue Feb 27 12:36:11 2007 From: rwh at visi.com (rwh) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:36:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] managing web users In-Reply-To: <4600.64.8.148.4.1172601215.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <4600.64.8.148.4.1172601215.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <45E47A1B.8010404@visi.com> Before I switched over to letting PAM do the authentication I was assigning web access using group memberships. That consolidated access to the file server and web apps to a single privilege. Of course that won't help in your case if you want to allow remote administration, but don't want to have remote access to group memberships. --rick admin at lctn.org wrote: > I am looking for a web based tool to add, edit, and delete users from an > .htpasswd file. I have tried a couple (admuser& htpasswd.cgi), but both > are giving me errors I cannot find a solution to. Is there one that comes > highly recommended? > > > > Raymond > From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 13:05:51 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:05:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <20070227174344.GF7896@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> <45E3FF35.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> <20070227174344.GF7896@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 10:16:39AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> One major question unresolved for me: If code is distributed under the >> BSDL and it is used within a proprietary program, does that program >> then have to be distributed under the BSDL? > > No. I'm sorry Chad, but a single word from someone I don't know who goes by the pseudonym "Wookimus" doesn't do it for me. I'd like to read all of this sometime: http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070114093427179 I don't know Brendan Scott but I have the impression that he is an attorney, and he is certainly an expert on this topic. Here is some info about him: http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070114093427179#sdfootnote1sym >> Can anyone take the code and change the license? > > Yes. Yet another word. It is having no effect on me. >> Are we allowed to choose a different license for the binary than for >> the source that was used to build it? > > Yes, though Copyright notices must remain in-tact. Full details found > here: > > http://www.opensource.org/licenses/bsd-license.php Like you, I am not an attorney, but it seems to me that the license shown there requires that "redistributions" stick with the original agreement. I don't see anything about what we might call "relicensing." > The only thing that BSD license does above Public Domain is enforce the > need to give attribution to the original copyright holders. This can > also be done using Creative Commons 3.0 Attribution license, but may > actually stand up to international law. > > http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/ If all you want is attribution and not a continuing program of development, an attribution-only license may be the way to go. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 13:09:48 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:09:48 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] GPL and tax law (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and use?) In-Reply-To: <20070227175253.GG7896@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <45DF66BF.6040305@visi.com> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> <20070227175253.GG7896@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 10:14:21AM -0600, Dan Armbrust wrote: >> How about tax software? When when do you suppose that the GPL is >> going to end up providing us with a way to do our taxes? > > I think it would be a great idea, actually. The use-case and > unit-testing required to accurately represent tax law would likely show > the glaring and subtle flaws, promoting the flat-tax rate that we > already pay here in the US (approximately 40% if you're wondering). Sorry, but what does "the flat-tax rate that we already pay here in the US (approximately 40% if you're wondering)" mean? We don't pay a flat tax in the US. Do you mean that if we paid a flat tax it would be 40%? I can believe that. Mike From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Feb 27 13:39:17 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:39:17 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] GPL and tax law (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and use?) In-Reply-To: References: <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> <20070227175253.GG7896@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <20070227193917.GJ7896@skuld.wookimus.net> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 01:09:48PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > Sorry, but what does "the flat-tax rate that we already pay here in > the US (approximately 40% if you're wondering)" mean? We don't pay > a flat tax in the US. Do you mean that if we paid a flat tax it > would be 40%? I can believe that. http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/c7b99122/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 13:50:31 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:50:31 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] GPL and tax law (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and use?) In-Reply-To: <20070227193917.GJ7896@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> <20070227175253.GG7896@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070227193917.GJ7896@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 01:09:48PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >> Sorry, but what does "the flat-tax rate that we already pay here in the >> US (approximately 40% if you're wondering)" mean? We don't pay a flat >> tax in the US. Do you mean that if we paid a flat tax it would be 40%? >> I can believe that. > > http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Taxes/Advice/YourRealTaxRate40.aspx According to the article, on average, including all forms of taxation: A 30-year-old couple earning $50,000 a year, for instance, pays 24.4%, and a 60-year-old couple making $150,000 a year faces a tax rate of 47.7%. They call that "an exception" (feel free to laugh at that). The fact is, we don't pay a flat tax. If we were to convert to a flat tax system, and do away with sales taxes, the article is suggesting that the rate would be about 40%. Of course we will never do that because the distribution of tax revenues is a very complex problem that is now being solved partly by all sorts of sales taxes. Mike From chewie at wookimus.net Tue Feb 27 13:51:41 2007 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 13:51:41 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> <45E3FF35.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> <20070227174344.GF7896@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <20070227195141.GK7896@skuld.wookimus.net> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 01:05:51PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > I'm sorry Chad, but a single word from someone I don't know who goes > by the pseudonym "Wookimus" doesn't do it for me. I'd like to read > all of this sometime: > > http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070114093427179 > > I don't know Brendan Scott but I have the impression that he is an > attorney, and he is certainly an expert on this topic. Here is some > info about him: > > http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070114093427179#sdfootnote1sym Who pissed in your Wheaties today, Mike Miller? Thanks for the link, but you can keep your attitude in check. > Like you, I am not an attorney, but it seems to me that the license > shown there requires that "redistributions" stick with the original > agreement. I don't see anything about what we might call > "relicensing." Ahh, so we're being pedantic now. I suppose that qualifies given that this discussion involves licences, copyright, and law. Thank you for pointing out exactly why IANAL nor would I ever want to be. For future reference, Mike, consider all discussion on the list an opinion and not legal advice. In fact, even lawyers preface their discussions with "IAAL, but don't consider this legal advice" and essentially, "Go pay a lawyer to give you advice within that capacity." Let's try to keep tclug-list a helpful resource, leaving the attitudes checked in at the door. You've generally been helpful and have had interesting things to say, but I'm perfectly happy sending email to /dev/null, just like the good ol' days on NNTP. -- Chad Walstrom http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/6dce55a9/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 14:10:55 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 14:10:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <20070227195141.GK7896@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> <20070227133029.GE29073@iucha.net> <45E3FF35.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> <20070227174344.GF7896@skuld.wookimus.net> <20070227195141.GK7896@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 01:05:51PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: >> I'm sorry Chad, but a single word from someone I don't know who goes >> by the pseudonym "Wookimus" doesn't do it for me. I'd like to read >> all of this sometime: >> >> http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070114093427179 >> >> I don't know Brendan Scott but I have the impression that he is an >> attorney, and he is certainly an expert on this topic. Here is some >> info about him: >> >> http://www.groklaw.net/articlebasic.php?story=20070114093427179#sdfootnote1sym > > Who pissed in your Wheaties today, Mike Miller? Thanks for the link, > but you can keep your attitude in check. The rest deleted, unread. Mike From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Feb 27 15:43:55 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:43:55 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702272143.l1RLhtd22198@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Make 1000 per day Make 1000 per day Start Earning a full time income working at home from your computer. You can Start Earning money within the next hour. http://ourdollars.com Seller Email address: blrbindu at yahoo dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From cschumann at twp-llc.com Tue Feb 27 16:31:10 2007 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 16:31:10 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26448.168.86.12.2.1172615470.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> The last digest: > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for > your Open Source Project" (Mike Miller) > 2. Re: GPL and tax law (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and > use?) (Mike Miller) > 3. Re: GPL and tax law (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and > use?) (Chad Walstrom) > 4. Re: GPL and tax law (was Re: Linux, GPL, Source code, and > use?) (Mike Miller) > 5. Re: errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for > your Open Source Project" (Chad Walstrom) > 6. Re: errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for > your Open Source Project" (Mike Miller) Yawn! More of the same. > 7. New TCLUG Classified Ad (TCLUG Classifieds) Wait! Can it be? Something worth reading? > Message: 7 > Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 15:43:55 -0600 > You can Start Earning money within the next hour. Alas, no. From jhb at freebsd.org Tue Feb 27 11:42:15 2007 From: jhb at freebsd.org (John Baldwin) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 12:42:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> References: <1172582011.26051.29.camel@jon.mn.mtu.net> Message-ID: <200702271242.16644.jhb@freebsd.org> On Tuesday 27 February 2007 08:13, Jon Schewe wrote: > On Mon, 2007-02-26 at 09:13 -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > > In the end, you basically suggest that the sole advantage of the BSD > > license over the GPL is that the BSD license attracts developers who want > > to use a proprietary model of software development. In other words, the > > BSD license is best for those who would like to profit from our code > > without giving back any code to the developer community. What's good > > about that? That clearly is the core issue. Couldn't you have left off > > nearly everything else and just told the reader why he should want his > > code to be used in proprietary software projects that compete with open > > source projects? > > What about people that want to use your project and are willing to give > back to the project patches to improve the project, but are unable to > open source the software they are writing that uses your project? Not to mention the whole BSD TCP/IP stack deal that improved interoperability of the internet since it wasn't encumbered with a more restrictive license, and thus both Open and Closed Source products could use it. The BSD license is about letting people share code with a very wide audience. -- John Baldwin From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Tue Feb 27 17:46:47 2007 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 17:46:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <82f04dc40702271546j28c5808anb242899bc5122bc2@mail.gmail.com> On 2/27/07, Mike Miller wrote: > I don't think the problem is that the GPL is hard to understand, I think > the problem is that many people haven't tried to understand it. I > The fact that we can't even agree whether or not the rest of the software that runs a microwave needs to be released if they use any GPL software in the microwave makes the hard-to-understand part clear to me. > Clarification: Did IBM say that they would not have been interested in > your code if it had been released under the GPL? IBM has been very > supportive of Linux (GPL), so I don't think that would kill their > interest. It all depends on which market you are in - Obviously, if they are looking to build on something, and sell it as a product, they can't use GPL. This is why the eclipse foundation does not use GPL - IBM builds tons of expensive products on top of it - and they are bound very tightly into the Eclipse base code. > Do you have a reference on that? I can't find anything about a license > for ODF. Are you sure you aren't thinking of a specific program that > implements ODF? Well, I just jumped out to the OpenOffice website, and noted that they use the LGPL. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that that also covers their specification. Perhaps it doesn't. My poorly researched point was supposed to be that if the standard was released under GPL, and that required implementing software to also be GPL, then there could never be commercial software which implements the standard. In hindsight, I don't know how GPL applies to standards, as opposed to source code. > > Apache and Eclipse are two very large and growing software ecosystems. > > You know why? No GPL! Ton's of commercial companies use their > > software! And many of those commercial companies have people that spend > > time fixing bugs in that same software. Like me, for one. > > That is another peculiar and unsupportable claim. Why would you think > that Apache is successful because it is not under the GPL? I think it is > because Apache is a nice program. Many nice programs are distributed > under the GPL and they are successful. I was thinking more of the Apache organization as a whole, not the httpd server project. The Apache project includes tons of software this is used and well maintained by a lot of people working in companies that release commercial software built on top of these tools. If I go looking for java utilities, there is hardly anything out there under the GPL. Almost all of the useful stuff is under Apache Jakarta, or some other "more free" license which allows them to be used in commercial software. > > GPL is not about free. Its about an impossible to achieve pipe dream. > > That's a peculiar statement. Really, some of you guys say the craziest > things. GPL (as compared to BSDL) is about encouraging people to help a > project to grow. If I write some code, distribute it under the GPL, and > someone sends me a patch or some additional code to be incorporated under > the GPL, then it has succeeded and the GPL has made my dream come true. > The GPL offers more encouragement for future development than does the > BSDL. You might call it a "viral quality" of the GPL that the BSDL lacks. You see the viral quality as giving you more patches from more users. I see the viral quality as preventing day-to-day software developement professionals that work for a company that sells software from ever touching your code. So you get less exposure, and less growth. > > There is, and always will be a place for commercial software. > > Irrelevant. No, not really. Once software developers graduate from college, suddenly, someone needs to pay them, so they can make a living. No one is going to pay them if their competitors can use their work for free. > What requires "massive amounts of money to develop?" Can you give an > example. I can't envision a software project that is not doable under the > GPL. Are you willing to shell out the money it would require to hire the professionals that you would need to decipher the US tax code? Do you really think that people who make their living studying the US tax code are willing to work for free? The money has to come from somewhere. >It might take more time, of course. Also, the fact that something >is GPL doesn't mean it can't have massive amounts of money behind it. >For example, governments can produce GPL software. I can write a grant to >NIH and get hundreds of thousands of dollars to support software >development. You could, but why would the NIH want to prevent companies from being able to build something even better on top of what they have paid for? As a matter of fact, much of the work that I did at Mayo was funded by NIH contracts, and the contract specifically required that the end result be open source - and not GPL. > It would be possible for federal and state governments to provide tax > software under GPL or compatible license. They might not do it because of > the proprietary lobby, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. Agreed - but if they did provide this software, why should people be prevented from improving it even further, and charging for their work? In reference to your work - choosing GPL over other licenses basically gives you a different set of potential contributers. GPL gives you folks that also believe that anything that touches your code (where touches can't even be defined without lawyers and judges) should also be free. But, a more free license would also give you these same people. GPL cuts you off from anyone working on a commercial product, and you lose the potential of having all of those professional people sending you bug fixes and improvements. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Feb 27 18:53:36 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 18:53:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40702271546j28c5808anb242899bc5122bc2@mail.gmail.com> References: <10474624.1172195918929.JavaMail.root@sniper61> <45DF9568.4050805@visi.com> <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> <82f04dc40702271546j28c5808anb242899bc5122bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Dan Armbrust wrote: > On 2/27/07, Mike Miller wrote: > >> I don't think the problem is that the GPL is hard to understand, I >> think the problem is that many people haven't tried to understand it. > > The fact that we can't even agree whether or not the rest of the > software that runs a microwave needs to be released if they use any GPL > software in the microwave makes the hard-to-understand part clear to me. The thing is, there was one guy who didn't know what he was talking about making unsupported claims, using no references, and he was completely wrong. If that's how we determine what is hard to understand, almost everything is hard to undrstand, and that definitely includes the BSDL. >> Clarification: Did IBM say that they would not have been interested in >> your code if it had been released under the GPL? IBM has been very >> supportive of Linux (GPL), so I don't think that would kill their >> interest. > > It all depends on which market you are in - Obviously, if they are > looking to build on something, and sell it as a product, they can't use > GPL. This is why the eclipse foundation does not use GPL - IBM builds > tons of expensive products on top of it - and they are bound very > tightly into the Eclipse base code. So you are using the Eclipse Public License which at a mere 1700 words of legalese is the very model of clarity and breeze-easy readability: http://www.eclipse.org/org/documents/epl-v10.php It seems to be a pretty good license though and it might turn out to be GPLv3 compatible. Still, I think problems with ease of understanding are there with any license. At least with the GPL we have many years of debate and test cases already behind us. There are many web pages and even books written about it. >> Do you have a reference on that? I can't find anything about a license >> for ODF. Are you sure you aren't thinking of a specific program that >> implements ODF? > > Well, I just jumped out to the OpenOffice website, and noted that they > use the LGPL. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that that also covers their > specification. Perhaps it doesn't. My poorly researched point was > supposed to be that if the standard was released under GPL, and that > required implementing software to also be GPL, then there could never be > commercial software which implements the standard. In hindsight, I > don't know how GPL applies to standards, as opposed to source code. Right. I don't think it applies to standards in the same way but I am no expert. I do think your idea about standards is solid though -- if you want to promote a standard, license software implementing that standard under BSDL instead of GPL. You don't care about being involved in further development; you just want the standard to be used. So I agree with that idea, at least if there may be strong interest from commercial developers (otherwise the GPL might still do better because of its "viral property"). >> > Apache and Eclipse are two very large and growing software >> > ecosystems. You know why? No GPL! Ton's of commercial companies use >> > their software! And many of those commercial companies have people >> > that spend time fixing bugs in that same software. Like me, for one. >> >> That is another peculiar and unsupportable claim. Why would you think >> that Apache is successful because it is not under the GPL? I think it >> is because Apache is a nice program. Many nice programs are >> distributed under the GPL and they are successful. > > I was thinking more of the Apache organization as a whole, not the httpd > server project. The Apache project includes tons of software this is > used and well maintained by a lot of people working in companies that > release commercial software built on top of these tools. > > If I go looking for java utilities, there is hardly anything out there > under the GPL. Almost all of the useful stuff is under Apache Jakarta, > or some other "more free" license which allows them to be used in > commercial software. OK, that's cool, but your claim is that absence of GPL is the key to their success. We don't know however what would have happened if the code had been released under the GPL. >> > GPL is not about free. Its about an impossible to achieve pipe >> > dream. >> >> That's a peculiar statement. Really, some of you guys say the craziest >> things. GPL (as compared to BSDL) is about encouraging people to help >> a project to grow. If I write some code, distribute it under the GPL, >> and someone sends me a patch or some additional code to be incorporated >> under the GPL, then it has succeeded and the GPL has made my dream come >> true. The GPL offers more encouragement for future development than >> does the BSDL. You might call it a "viral quality" of the GPL that the >> BSDL lacks. > > You see the viral quality as giving you more patches from more users. I > see the viral quality as preventing day-to-day software developement > professionals that work for a company that sells software from ever > touching your code. So you get less exposure, and less growth. Maybe, but how can we decide? GPL code seems to be thriving, as in Linux distros, etc. So the GPL doesn't stop professionals from working with the code. Over time, as the projects become more advanced, the viral aspect will become even more potent because there will be more GPL code available. >> > There is, and always will be a place for commercial software. >> >> Irrelevant. > > No, not really. Once software developers graduate from college, > suddenly, someone needs to pay them, so they can make a living. No one > is going to pay them if their competitors can use their work for free. There is some truth in that, but we are not talking about the future of commercial software -- we agree that it has a future. We're talking about BSDL v. GPL, thus the "irrelevant." I should add that it is possible to make a living just working with GPL code. Most of the money probably comes from support contracts, but money can be made. >> What requires "massive amounts of money to develop?" Can you give an >> example. I can't envision a software project that is not doable under >> the GPL. > > Are you willing to shell out the money it would require to hire the > professionals that you would need to decipher the US tax code? Do you > really think that people who make their living studying the US tax code > are willing to work for free? The money has to come from somewhere. I guess there are a few GPL tax programs. Why should someone write GCC for free? That must have been hard. How about OpenOffice? R? Octave? All these projects were massive efforts but they happened. >> It might take more time, of course. Also, the fact that something is >> GPL doesn't mean it can't have massive amounts of money behind it. For >> example, governments can produce GPL software. I can write a grant to >> NIH and get hundreds of thousands of dollars to support software >> development. > > You could, but why would the NIH want to prevent companies from being > able to build something even better on top of what they have paid for? > As a matter of fact, much of the work that I did at Mayo was funded by > NIH contracts, and the contract specifically required that the end > result be open source - and not GPL. That is really bad news and I hadn't heard that before. The reason it is bad news is that a fork from the original project can steal the code and basically leach off of the original developers. As the original NIH-funded developers continue to produce new code, the leaches take that too. They add a few bells and whistles and tell people "it's based on Project X code, but it has the better interface, yadda, yadda" and people might use the stupid thing. I don't want that to happen to me, thus I want to develop under the GPL. If NIH tells me they want BSDL, or whatever, instead of GPL, they will have a huge fight on their hands. I have a lot done already, and it is GPL, so I can't see myself making the rest of it BSDL. I know of other NIH-funded projects that are GPL or even more restrictive (e.g., binaries-only or modify-but-don't-distribute), so I don't think this is a general rule. I would like to know more about your experience with NIH and what their rationale was (or even who that came from). Most of my code runs within Octave or R (both GPL projects), so I have another reason to distribute it under the GPL, but I don't think it is required by the GPL. >> It would be possible for federal and state governments to provide tax >> software under GPL or compatible license. They might not do it because >> of the proprietary lobby, but it doesn't sound like a bad idea to me. > > Agreed - but if they did provide this software, why should people be > prevented from improving it even further, and charging for their work? Under the GPL, they aren't prevented from doing that. You really should read the GPL FAQ. Seriously, I think if you read through it you might find that you have some misconceptions. > In reference to your work - choosing GPL over other licenses basically > gives you a different set of potential contributers. GPL gives you > folks that also believe that anything that touches your code (where > touches can't even be defined without lawyers and judges) should also be > free. They don't have to believe any particular software philosophy to be able to contribute to my project. They have to be willing to contribute something though. I think the GPL FAQ explains the license well enough that I wouldn't need to consult an attorney. > But, a more free license would also give you these same people. I don't agree. Why wouldn't those people just take my code, make their own program out of it, spruce it up a bit, sell it as a competing program and offer me nothing at all in return? The BSDL would allow that, but the GPL would not. This is the #1 reason why I would strongly prefer the GPL to the BSDL. > GPL cuts you off from anyone working on a commercial product, and you > lose the potential of having all of those professional people sending > you bug fixes and improvements. No. Seriously -- the opposite is true. With the GPL, a commercial developer is required to share improvements with me if he's going to sell software based on my code. With the BSDL, he is not required to help me in any way whatsoever. I see what you are thinking though. Sometimes the BSDL will encourage commercial developers to get involved where they would not have done so with the GPL, but it can go either way. > From my experience, you don't need to have the GPL forcing people to > give back changes - they are happy to do it anyway, because they want > those fixes in the next version that you release. Unless they are a competitor. Then they will do nothing for me. > And what is gained by keeping your competitors from using your program? > You aren't suffering a financial loss, unless you are charging in a > different way - such as for support. You aren't losing developers, > because the competitors developers aren't going to work on your program > for you just because it's GPL. As mentioned above and below -- if competitors can use my program, they will have all of my work and all the features I developed over the course of many years of effort instantly added to their program for free. They are my *competitor*, so that is a problem for me. A competitor can't do that to me when my code is under the GPL. > I just don't see any way that the GPL license itself is going to drive > more developers to your code. The reason is that if they make a fork of my code, I can fork it right back to my code base, if I want to, so they might as well just give it to me and let me develop it with their assistance. This is what is going on with R, Octave and other GPL projects I've been connected with over the years. With the BSDL it is more of a crapshoot and anyone can run off with your code and use it against you. I realize now that there are different software realities out there and for some people the BSDL is probably a better choice. For someone like me working on scientific software, the GPL is clearly the better choice. Thanks for coming back with some good answers. Mike From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Feb 27 19:16:31 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 19:16:31 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702280116.l1S1GVJ26130@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Misc Equipment HP Omnibook XE4400S 1.8GHz 1GB RAM (2x512 Corsair) 20GB hard drive DVD-ROM and Floppy built in NetGear Wi-Fi PCMCIA 802.11b/g Windows XP Pro Product Key Eddie Bauer laptop bag $500 ====== HP Omnibook XE3-GF 1.0GHz 512MB RAM (2x256) 20GB hard drive DVD/CD-R optical drive Floppy built in $200 ====== Intergraph GL2 (Server class machine) Dual P2-400MHz 512MB of ECC RAM Sony CD-R $50 ====== Baystack 24 port managed switch $15 ====== Zip Drives and Discs 3-250MB drives 2-100MB drives 1-250MB disc 19-100MB discs $40 - OBO ======= FREE! - Generic Pentium-200MHz PC, 128MB RAM, 1 NIC - Palm 3e w/cradle Seller Email address: auditodd at comcast dot net http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From jack at jacku.com Tue Feb 27 21:13:22 2007 From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 21:13:22 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] managing web users In-Reply-To: <4600.64.8.148.4.1172601215.squirrel@lctn.org> References: <4600.64.8.148.4.1172601215.squirrel@lctn.org> Message-ID: <200702272113.22357.jack@jacku.com> On Tuesday 27 February 2007 12:33 pm, admin at lctn.org wrote: > I am looking for a web based tool to add, edit, and delete users from an > .htpasswd file. I have tried a couple (admuser& htpasswd.cgi), but both > are giving me errors I cannot find a solution to. Is there one that comes > highly recommended? > > > > Raymond I'm not certain about this and my reference material isn't handy, but I think Webmin will allow you to manage .htpasswd files along with the rest of your Apache setup (and everything else). I like webmin, been using it for years. -- Jack Ungerleider jack at jacku.com http://www.jacku.com From florin at iucha.net Tue Feb 27 22:13:36 2007 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 22:13:36 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: References: <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> <82f04dc40702271546j28c5808anb242899bc5122bc2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070228041336.GN29073@iucha.net> On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 06:53:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > >>Do you have a reference on that? I can't find anything about a license > >>for ODF. Are you sure you aren't thinking of a specific program that > >>implements ODF? > > > >Well, I just jumped out to the OpenOffice website, and noted that they > >use the LGPL. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that that also covers their > >specification. Perhaps it doesn't. > > Right. I don't think it applies to standards in the same way but I am no > expert. I do think your idea about standards is solid though -- if you > want to promote a standard, license software implementing that standard > under BSDL instead of GPL. You don't care about being involved in further > development; you just want the standard to be used. So I agree with that > idea, at least if there may be strong interest from commercial developers > (otherwise the GPL might still do better because of its "viral property"). It depends; remember that Microsoft appropriated all of the Kerberos protocol (thus using the work that went into design and testing) but added an incompatible twist that was proprietary. Depending on your opinions, that might or might not be a good thing. florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070227/8510d0bb/attachment.pgp From josh at tcbug.org Wed Feb 28 00:56:49 2007 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 00:56:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] errors in "Why you should use a BSD style license for your Open Source Project" In-Reply-To: <1172600191.16900.26.camel@mn65-eggplant.htc.honeywell.com> References: <20070227173700.GE7896@skuld.wookimus.net> <1172600191.16900.26.camel@mn65-eggplant.htc.honeywell.com> Message-ID: <200702280056.49877.josh@tcbug.org> On Tuesday 27 February 2007 12:16, Jon Schewe wrote: > On Tue, 2007-02-27 at 11:37 -0600, Chad Walstrom wrote: > > 1. Software must be a derivative: > > > > They have to link to the project's libraries or binaries. > > Note, this says "link", not execute. This indicates that they're > > calling the library directly in their application. Executing an > > application and working with the published interfaces (stdio, > > sockets, pipes, protocol-based interaction), is not a violation > > of GPL copyright licenses. > > This is where I usually run into problems. It's not that I want to > modify an open-source project to make a proprietary application, > but rather I'd like to build upon an open-source library to avoid > doing the same thing again and finding the same bugs as someone > else and for compatibility with standards, like the BSD TCP stack. > LGPL usually solves this, but there are quite a few projects that > are only GPL still. > > I couldn't resist..... http://www.xkcd.org/c225.html -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Feb 28 01:07:43 2007 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 01:07:43 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux, GPL, Source code, and use? In-Reply-To: <20070228041336.GN29073@iucha.net> References: <20070225190440.GA15612@cheesecake.org> <20070226152700.GA20718@cheesecake.org> <20070226162846.GC29073@iucha.net> <82f04dc40702270814w7a0a9567xb90a5454ad7c1030@mail.gmail.com> <82f04dc40702271546j28c5808anb242899bc5122bc2@mail.gmail.com> <20070228041336.GN29073@iucha.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 27 Feb 2007, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 06:53:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: >>>> Do you have a reference on that? I can't find anything about a license >>>> for ODF. Are you sure you aren't thinking of a specific program that >>>> implements ODF? >>> >>> Well, I just jumped out to the OpenOffice website, and noted that they >>> use the LGPL. I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that that also covers their >>> specification. Perhaps it doesn't. >> >> Right. I don't think it applies to standards in the same way but I am no >> expert. I do think your idea about standards is solid though -- if you >> want to promote a standard, license software implementing that standard >> under BSDL instead of GPL. You don't care about being involved in further >> development; you just want the standard to be used. So I agree with that >> idea, at least if there may be strong interest from commercial developers >> (otherwise the GPL might still do better because of its "viral property"). > > It depends; remember that Microsoft appropriated all of the Kerberos > protocol (thus using the work that went into design and testing) but > added an incompatible twist that was proprietary. Depending on your > opinions, that might or might not be a good thing. Sounds like a bad thing to me. Haven't they been doing something similar with ODF? Microsoft sure loves to create the standards. Mike From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Feb 28 14:48:25 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:48:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702282048.l1SKmPQ11976@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Server equipment Rack mount cases are from www.Casetronic.com, their part no. CT-A320-G. These are essentially the 3U "Eagle" models. Each comes with Power Supply, sold "as-is", all 3 cases are essentially scratch-n-dent free. I have 3 cases. Make reasonable offer over $125 ea. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Feb 28 14:51:34 2007 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 14:51:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200702282051.l1SKpYW12692@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 2U Server System 2U Intel Rackmount case, with 4 X 36GB SCSI drives (Seagate ST336705LC). Motherboard is dual Xeon PIII. 1GB RAM. Best offer over $850. Seller Email address: sales at bbwh dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From srcfoo at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 15:10:08 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:10:08 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk: cost of hardware? Message-ID: <579c6fd30702281310x2d9c5cb7pe96b2c22653fdffb@mail.gmail.com> I was looking at moving our office to an Asterisk implementation and was checking out the cost of the FXO/FXS hardware. I've been looking at Digium's hardware, but was wondering if this was the best route to take. Any suggestions? We have six analog phone lines coming in and 8 analog phones connected to our current system. The current software isn't great and we can't use SIP based phones with it so I'd like to move to something that would support more soft phone clients. Thanks. From robbyt at robbyt.net Wed Feb 28 15:30:47 2007 From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 15:30:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk: cost of hardware? In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30702281310x2d9c5cb7pe96b2c22653fdffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <579c6fd30702281310x2d9c5cb7pe96b2c22653fdffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1f663090702281330k2933bac4y9e6ce3e41e6a21d7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/28/07, Eric Peterson wrote: > I was looking at moving our office to an Asterisk implementation and > was checking out the cost of the FXO/FXS hardware. I've been looking > at Digium's hardware, but was wondering if this was the best route to > take. > > Any suggestions? > > We have six analog phone lines coming in and 8 analog phones connected > to our current system. The current software isn't great and we can't > use SIP based phones with it so I'd like to move to something that > would support more soft phone clients. > > Thanks. the TC-AUG is having a new user build fest in march: http://tcaug.net/node/8 Lots of smart people there who have used asterisk extensively in large and small deployments. From srcfoo at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 16:01:45 2007 From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 16:01:45 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk: cost of hardware? In-Reply-To: <1f663090702281330k2933bac4y9e6ce3e41e6a21d7@mail.gmail.com> References: <579c6fd30702281310x2d9c5cb7pe96b2c22653fdffb@mail.gmail.com> <1f663090702281330k2933bac4y9e6ce3e41e6a21d7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <579c6fd30702281401w4ad83aadv7fb25bdfd60a014f@mail.gmail.com> Sounds interesting. Might have to see if I can make it. Thanks. On 2/28/07, Rob Terhaar wrote: > On 2/28/07, Eric Peterson wrote: > > I was looking at moving our office to an Asterisk implementation and > > was checking out the cost of the FXO/FXS hardware. I've been looking > > at Digium's hardware, but was wondering if this was the best route to > > take. > > > > Any suggestions? > > > > We have six analog phone lines coming in and 8 analog phones connected > > to our current system. The current software isn't great and we can't > > use SIP based phones with it so I'd like to move to something that > > would support more soft phone clients. > > > > Thanks. > > the TC-AUG is having a new user build fest in march: http://tcaug.net/node/8 > > Lots of smart people there who have used asterisk extensively in large > and small deployments. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From thurianknight at gmail.com Wed Feb 28 18:25:52 2007 From: thurianknight at gmail.com (Dave Sherman) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 18:25:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk: cost of hardware? In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30702281310x2d9c5cb7pe96b2c22653fdffb@mail.gmail.com> References: <579c6fd30702281310x2d9c5cb7pe96b2c22653fdffb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7bdea6e30702281625g4e5cd1e4ud6c9159c666357ee@mail.gmail.com> On 2/28/07, Eric Peterson wrote: > I was looking at moving our office to an Asterisk implementation and > was checking out the cost of the FXO/FXS hardware. I've been looking > at Digium's hardware, but was wondering if this was the best route to > take. > > Any suggestions? > > We have six analog phone lines coming in and 8 analog phones connected > to our current system. The current software isn't great and we can't > use SIP based phones with it so I'd like to move to something that > would support more soft phone clients. My company has two production installations of Asterisk, both running CentOS on newly-built (one year old, at this point) whitebox servers and using Digium T1 cards. The T1 cards with hardware echo cancellation were a lifesaver for us, not sure if any other manufacturers are producing a card with that feature. Can't say much about the FXO/FXS cards from Digium, besides the fact that they work as expected. We have used them for testing, but do not have any in a production server. Our environments use Snom 320 phones (no soft-phones yet), and we have about 60-80 phones at each installation. The biggest challenge we've had is with faxing. We ended up bringing in dedicated analog lines from Qwest for our faxes at one installation, but faxes at the other installation are running off Sipura (now Linksys) SIP-to-analog converter boxes, and they seem to work fine -- but they also use the faxes less than the folks who got analog lines. With your setup, you should be able to get two 4-port FXO cards, plus two 4-port FXS cards, and that would cover you unless you wanted to add more analog phones or more than two additional lines. I do seem to recall reading that having more than one card in a single server can lead to performance issues, because the telephony interface cards tend to generate so many interrupts on the system bus, and they need to run in real time -- if you have too many cards, it will start to show in performance rather quickly. In each of our systems, we have one T1 card, and have had no performance problems. -- Dave Sherman MCSA, MCSE, CCNA Linux: Because rebooting is for adding new hardware. From tclug at natecarlson.com Wed Feb 28 22:32:11 2007 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:32:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] Asterisk: cost of hardware? In-Reply-To: <7bdea6e30702281625g4e5cd1e4ud6c9159c666357ee@mail.gmail.com> References: <579c6fd30702281310x2d9c5cb7pe96b2c22653fdffb@mail.gmail.com> <7bdea6e30702281625g4e5cd1e4ud6c9159c666357ee@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Feb 2007, Dave Sherman wrote: > The T1 cards with hardware echo cancellation were a lifesaver for us, > not sure if any other manufacturers are producing a card with that > feature. I know Sangoma also makes one. They also do a lot more in hardware (ie - the price tag skyrockets). > Can't say much about the FXO/FXS cards from Digium, besides the fact > that they work as expected. We have used them for testing, but do not > have any in a production server. Avoid the FXO/FXS cards whenever possible. :) My advice would be to get digital trunks (BRI's or PRI's), and if you need FXS ports (for fax machines, door phones, etc), get a channel bank to split a T1 into multiple analog lines. If you can't get digital lines, you can get channel banks that will let you configure (for example) 16 ports as FXO and 8 ports as FXS - so you could plug 16 analog phone lines into it, and 8 analog extensions. > The biggest challenge we've had is with faxing. We ended up bringing in > dedicated analog lines from Qwest for our faxes at one installation, but > faxes at the other installation are running off Sipura (now Linksys) > SIP-to-analog converter boxes, and they seem to work fine -- but they > also use the faxes less than the folks who got analog lines. Have you tried the fax support for Asterisk (or OpenPBX)? I've heard good things about it; haven't ever tried it, though. > I do seem to recall reading that having more than one card in a single > server can lead to performance issues, because the telephony interface > cards tend to generate so many interrupts on the system bus, and they > need to run in real time -- if you have too many cards, it will start to > show in performance rather quickly. The Sangoma cards solve this - the cards don't generate a pile of interrupts. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------