From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Wed Jan  3 21:39:05 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 21:39:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701040339.l043d5R12671@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Free

Subject: Free computer books

All books are in good condition.  Some are a bit old.  I'll include ISBN so you can get the details.  Also makes good kindling.

Java in a Nutshell, 1-56592-262-X
Java 2 Complete, 0-7821-2468-2
Tcl and the Tk Toolkit, 0-201-63337-X
Learning Perl, 1-56592-284-0
The C++ Programming Language, 0-201-53992-6
Javascript, the Definitive Guide, 1-56592-392-8


Seller Email address: johntrammell at gmail dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From jsievert at gmail.com  Fri Jan  5 16:07:00 2007
From: jsievert at gmail.com (Jason Sievert)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 16:07:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Rack screws and clip nuts
Message-ID: <6cfb19470701051407h470e3887h60e344140c662422@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all, I am looking trying to find a local supplier for some rack
hardware.  Something like this from APC.
http://apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=AR8100&tab=features

Any ideas?

Thanks,
Jason Sievert
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From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Fri Jan  5 15:46:19 2007
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 15:46:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] vim expert needed - <S-Fx> not working
Message-ID: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net>

Hi all,

I've got a bunch of external macros and commands that I want to use my 
function keys for in vim (e.g. cvs commands).  And I'd like to map 
similar commands together, but if I map them all, I'm going to be 
running out of function keys pretty quick.  So I'm trying to map 
commands like this:

"load functions
source ~/bin/cdf.vim
:map <F5> :CVSDiff<C-M>
:map <S-F5> :CdfCvsDiffPrevious<C-M>
:map <F6> :CdfCvsUpdateReport<C-M>
:map <S-F6> :CVSCommit<C-M>
etc...

But none of the shift function keys are doing what I want.  If I open 
vim and do Ctrl-K and then a Shift-F5, instead of a "<S-F5>" I get 
"<HELP>", and when I try it with F6 I get "[29~".

Does anyone here know what's going on?  I'm running gentoo, fluxbox, and 
  Eterm, all with mostly default settings, so I don't think they would 
be messing with any key mappings or anything, xev shows everything 
working ok.  Any help would be great.

Thanks all,
Chris Frederick


From tclug-list at scotjenkins.com  Fri Jan  5 17:43:38 2007
From: tclug-list at scotjenkins.com (Scot Jenkins)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 17:43:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] vim expert needed - <S-Fx> not working
In-Reply-To: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net>
References: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <1168040618.459ee2aa70542@webmail.pajunas.net>

Quoting Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net>:

> I've got a bunch of external macros and commands that I want to use my
> function keys for in vim (e.g. cvs commands).  And I'd like to map
> similar commands together, but if I map them all, I'm going to be
> running out of function keys pretty quick.  So I'm trying to map
> commands like this:
>
> "load functions
> source ~/bin/cdf.vim
> :map <F5> :CVSDiff<C-M>
> :map <S-F5> :CdfCvsDiffPrevious<C-M>
> :map <F6> :CdfCvsUpdateReport<C-M>
> :map <S-F6> :CVSCommit<C-M>
> etc...
>
> But none of the shift function keys are doing what I want.  If I open
> vim and do Ctrl-K and then a Shift-F5, instead of a "<S-F5>" I get
> "<HELP>", and when I try it with F6 I get "[29~".

In vi, in input mode, type CTRL+V then hit the key combination you want.  CTRL+V
will quote the next char.

Scot



From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Fri Jan  5 18:05:07 2007
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:05:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Update:  vim expert needed - <S-Fx> not working
In-Reply-To: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net>
References: <459EC72B.6070309@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <459EE7B3.2030200@cdf123.net>

Chris Frederick wrote:
> <snipped>
> 
> But none of the shift function keys are doing what I want.  If I open 
> vim and do Ctrl-K and then a Shift-F5, instead of a "<S-F5>" I get 
> "<HELP>", and when I try it with F6 I get "[29~".
> 
> Does anyone here know what's going on?  I'm running gentoo, fluxbox, and 
> Eterm, all with mostly default settings, so I don't think they would 
> be messing with any key mappings or anything, xev shows everything 
> working ok.  Any help would be great.
> 
> <snipped>

Why is it that when you spend hours looking for something and ask for 
help, you find it yourself in an hour or so?

I tried different terminals and found that xterm works perfectly.  So it 
must be a problem with eterm, and sure enough:

http://www.eterm.org/docs/view.php?doc=ref

Looks like eterm (and several others btw) are mapping <S-F1-10> to 
<F11-20>.  This seems kind of odd.  This makes <S-F1>=<F11>, and 
<S-F2>=<F12>.  So instead of 24 function key combinations, I'm cut down 
to 20.  I'm not seeing anything obvious available to change this 
"feature" (commenting out the code in term.c and recompiling didn't do 
what I want), but I'm still looking.

For now though ':help :map' to the rescue.  I've remapped the <S-Fx> 
keys to the key codes being given by eterm.  Just added this to my .vimrc:

set <S-F3>=[25~
set <S-F4>=[26~
set <S-F5>=<xHelp>
set <S-F6>=[29~
set <S-F7>=[31~
set <S-F8>=[32~
set <S-F9>=[33~
set <S-F10>=[34~
set <S-F11>=[23$
set <S-F12>=[24$
"F15 is apparently the help key, so undo it's mapping so I can use it.
map <Help> <Nop>
map! <Help> <Nop>

If anyone knows a quick and easy way to make eterm/rxvt/etc.. work more 
like xterm for key bindings, please let me know.  Something tells me I 
cant just swap out term.c and expect everything to work, but I'll keep 
digging.

Thanks again for any help.
Chris Frederick


From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com  Fri Jan  5 18:52:21 2007
From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com)
Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2007 18:52:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Rack screws and clip nuts
In-Reply-To: <6cfb19470701051407h470e3887h60e344140c662422@mail.gmail.co
 m>
References: <6cfb19470701051407h470e3887h60e344140c662422@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20070105184550.035d5800@pop.mm.com>

Three suppliers come to mind:
   Ace Hardware
   Home Depot
   Menard's

Rack screws are regular machine screws; nothing special about 
them.  Nylon locking hex nuts, lock washers. &c are also standard fare.

I forget the thread pitch, but if you bring one of your rack screws 
to your neighborhood hardware store, they'll be able to figure it out 
in a few seconds.  Home Depot has a thread gage where you can find 
the right match yourself.




At 04:07 PM 1/5/07, Jason Sievert wrote:
>Hello all, I am looking trying to find a local supplier for some 
>rack hardware.  Something like this from APC.
><http://apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=AR8100&tab=features>http://apcc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=AR8100&tab=features 
>
>
>Any ideas?



From dniesen at gmail.com  Sun Jan  7 18:38:49 2007
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 18:38:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>

I have a Fedora Core 4 server that is hosting a number of web sites.
It seems every week or so that a large number of GB go missing.  What
I mean is that while df shows 26GB used, du of that same mount show
only 7.4 GB used.  It seems that MySQL may be chomping some space in a
weird way because when I restart the MySQL server the space reappears.

The partition in question is xfs with usrquota enabled.  Has anyone
seen this behavior before?

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Sun Jan  7 21:25:03 2007
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:25:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/7/07, Donovan Niesen <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
> What
> I mean is that while df shows 26GB used, du of that same mount show
> only 7.4 GB used.  It seems that MySQL may be chomping some space in a
> weird way because when I restart the MySQL server the space reappears.

I remember seeing a discussion about this a while back.
http://mailman.real-time.com/pipermail/tclug-list/2004-May.txt
Search for "where is my disk space" on that page.  I'm guessing that
MySQL is keeping "deleted" files open, similar to what Tom was seeing
with his app, and that's why restarting MySQL frees up the space.
- Justin


From dniesen at gmail.com  Sun Jan  7 21:41:28 2007
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 21:41:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df
In-Reply-To: <27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>
	<27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/7/07, Justin Kremer <justin.kremer at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/7/07, Donovan Niesen <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
> > What
> > I mean is that while df shows 26GB used, du of that same mount show
> > only 7.4 GB used.  It seems that MySQL may be chomping some space in a
> > weird way because when I restart the MySQL server the space reappears.
>
> I remember seeing a discussion about this a while back.
> http://mailman.real-time.com/pipermail/tclug-list/2004-May.txt
> Search for "where is my disk space" on that page.  I'm guessing that
> MySQL is keeping "deleted" files open, similar to what Tom was seeing
> with his app, and that's why restarting MySQL frees up the space.
> - Justin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

This must be it.  I have a script that updates the db on machine every
day from an outside source; I have a feeling either MySQL or some
error in my script must be unlinking a file and letting it hang out.
Thanks guys!

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Sun Jan  7 22:00:48 2007
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2007 22:00:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>
	<27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net>

"lsof +L1" should tell you the file(s) in question and if they are regular 
files, the size also.

-Dave

On Sunday 07 January 2007 21:41, Donovan Niesen wrote:
> This must be it.  I have a script that updates the db on machine every
> day from an outside source; I have a feeling either MySQL or some
> error in my script must be unlinking a file and letting it hang out.


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Mon Jan  8 01:05:26 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 01:05:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701080705.l0875Q722504@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Computers and Misc

For sale:


1.  Dell Insperion E1505
Specs - 
2.00ghz Intel Duo Core(Not Core 2)
2gb Ram
80gb hdd
Sony dvd+/- RW
Intel 3945 A/B/G Wireless
Onboard - 
10/100 Nic,
56k Modem
Sound
Mini Firewire
4 usb 2.0 ports
6 in one media card reader
and Multi-Media buttons on the front pannel.

Other -

System does come with all restore cds. WinXp Pro Sp2 cd provided by dell with licence code. Remaining 2 1/2 years on Gold level warrenty. Power cable and charger.

No Operating system currently loaded. But Can have Ubuntu/Kbuntu/Mandriva/Fedora loaded for showing.
$1400.00 Or Best Offer
---

Other parts/machines - 

Gateway 1.4ghz Athlon
128mb pc-133 ram
3gb hdd
cd-rw drive
$35.00
---

Pc-Chips Motherboard with 1.2ghz Duron
128mb pc-133ram
no hdds,cd, case or powersupply.
$20.00
--

Intel Celeron 500mhz box, cd-drive, dlink nic, 3gb hdd, 384mb ram.
$10.00

---

Cash or Certified Check only.



Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From erriiik at riseup.net  Mon Jan  8 01:15:56 2007
From: erriiik at riseup.net (Erik)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 01:15:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] a few good geeks...
In-Reply-To: <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net>
References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>	<27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com>	<47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net>
Message-ID: <45A1EFAC.7010805@riseup.net>

Hi Everyone,

The Twin Cities Indymedia collective is working on a project to outfit
coffeeshops and community centers around the Metro Area with free
computer kiosks with which people can check the indymedia site
(http://www.twincities.indymedia.org), other news sites, their email, or
whatever.

Our purpose is to provide access to the alternative information flows of
the Internet and Indymedia (the world's largest independent media
network), as well as general computer access, to people who would
otherwise not have it. We are hoping to start out with 1-2 kiosks in the
coming months, and eventually expand as far as possible.

In the spirit of freedom of information, we would like to run the
computer kiosks on Linux. And that's where you (hopefully!) come in. We
need volunteers (a few good geeks) to set up donated computers with
Linux, and if possible, maintain them once installed. The kiosks will
then not only promote independent media, but the open-source movement as
well.

If you are interested in participating in this project, please email me
off-list.

I also need help with booting Ubuntu from a firewire drive, but that's
an entirely different story...

Thanks for your help!

in solidarity,
Erik


From dniesen at gmail.com  Mon Jan  8 06:34:05 2007
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 06:34:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df
In-Reply-To: <200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net>
References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>
	<27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701080434j34d14602w4276197640afe61a@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/7/07, Dave Carlson <thecubic at thecubic.net> wrote:
> "lsof +L1" should tell you the file(s) in question and if they are regular
> files, the size also.
>
> -Dave
>
> On Sunday 07 January 2007 21:41, Donovan Niesen wrote:
> > This must be it.  I have a script that updates the db on machine every
> > day from an outside source; I have a feeling either MySQL or some
> > error in my script must be unlinking a file and letting it hang out.
>

The culprit ended up being mysql.log which was growing huge because it
was logging every query.  It seems that when it got rotated out each
morning the file was unlinked but was not converted to free space.
Turning this logging off saved my valuable space.

Thanks again, everyone!

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From nate at refried.org  Mon Jan  8 08:03:08 2007
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 08:03:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mismatch between du/df
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701080434j34d14602w4276197640afe61a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70701071638k24f572bft8d62c33287737571@mail.gmail.com>
	<27e6356a0701071925w2898aca4oc08a16ab1828b2ba@mail.gmail.com>
	<47f4d5e70701071941j714815d1i6ab46f4a5d270283@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701072200.49095.thecubic@thecubic.net>
	<47f4d5e70701080434j34d14602w4276197640afe61a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070108140308.GA25511@refried.org>

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 06:34:05AM -0600, Donovan Niesen wrote:
> The culprit ended up being mysql.log which was growing huge because it
> was logging every query.  It seems that when it got rotated out each
> morning the file was unlinked but was not converted to free space.
> Turning this logging off saved my valuable space.

If you still want this logging, you should check to see if MySQL has
some configuration directives for rotating the logs.  Some daemons have
an option to rotates logs themselves, others accept a signal when their
logs have been rotated so they can close and re-open their logs.

Nate


From rclark at lakesplus.com  Mon Jan  8 14:09:54 2007
From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean)
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:09:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Latest FC5 kernel
Message-ID: <1168286994.11186.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I may be just a bit befuddled here ... but ... I am trying to upgrade my
kernel on a Fedora Core 5 system.

I tried using YUM and it did not fly all that well.  There was an error
message while trying to install the kernel ... some error related to
grub ... searched the web, but no luck.

so ... I run rpm -qa | grep kernel  and I get

	[rclark at dualasus ~]$ rpm -qa | grep kernel
	kernel-smp-2.6.15-1.2054_FC5
	kernel-smp-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5

The 2.16.15 version is what I have now.  But ... the grub.conf shows
nothing related to 2.6.18 ... which I would like to try and install.  I
tried going out to download the SRC and work at it from that way ... but
none of the repositories go past the 2.6.15-1.2054.

How does the 2.6.18-1 show up ... how do i install it properly ... and
why does it not show up out on the repositories?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Randy



From joey.rockhold at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 09:37:24 2007
From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 09:37:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Documentation Server
Message-ID: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com>

At the place where I work, paperwork is overkill.  I am getting ready to
demo BugZilla to my company as a method of tracking system bugs and
projects, etc.  Along with this, we need a great way to pool all our
documents together, so I am hoping to find a product (free preferred) that
we can put all of our notes together.

Here are some examples of what we currently do:
1) I log my time spent on projects in to a spreadsheet (for my own use),
which I then turn around and enter in to our time keeping system
(company-made app).  I then enter this information in to a word document as
a "Status Report" for the week.  On days in which I telecommute from home, I
have to fill out a "Telecommuting Status Report", which is a word document.
I first enter what I plan to get accomplished from home on this document,
then the next day update this document with what I actually got done for the
day.  Finally, at the end of the week, I have to summarize all these times
by GL-Number on a time card, which is not automated, it is actually entered
by pen and paper.  This time card is what is sent to payroll.

2) Our CSRs have tons of documents about everything, but they are mostly
word and excel documents saved in dozens of folders all over the network.
They also have the biggest collections of emails.  I did get them going on
the use of Google Desktop Search, which has helped them a lot.

3) Our operations department has many many jobs.  They keep paper check
lists for a lot of what they do throughout the day.

I don't know if what I am looking for is a Wiki product, or what.  If anyone
has any ideas on the best way to pool all this information together, it
would be appreciated.  We do run an internal linux server, but only because
I set it up and maintain it, otherwise this is a fully Microsoft shop
(though we have a linux ip phone system going now).  So any products
mentioned either has to run in a web browser if it is linux based, or on
Windows desktops.  I would prefer it run in the linux box myself.

Thanks in advance.

- Joey
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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Mon Jan  8 14:50:15 2007
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2007 14:50:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts
Message-ID: <bada98250701081250m1768a4d7x71a0f96f2d54094b@mail.gmail.com>

We are running a SuSE 10.1 box w/ Apache 2.2.3 compiled w/ mod_perl 2.0.3 &
perl 5.8.8.

When we attempt to view .pl/.cgi scripts in a browser, all we get is the
text of the script displayed:

eg.

#!/usr/bin/perl
print "Content-type: text/plain\r\n\r\n";
print "Testing mod_perl installation!\n";


Theoretically, this should be about a 5-step process, and all the make-tests
for all-dependencies pass with flying colors. Nevertheless, once compiled,
the scripts (such as the one above) still do not run.

Any ideas on where to start looking to troubleshoot this?

-- 

Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com
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From gscottwalters at gmail.com  Wed Jan 10 10:50:39 2007
From: gscottwalters at gmail.com (G. Scott Walters)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 10:50:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Problem,
Message-ID: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a couple hundred PDF files that have been malformed with some
extra lines AFTER the EOF. This keeps them from being doing important
things like printing, or displaying properly on some versions of
Acrobat. Not all PDFs are necessarily effected with this issue...

Since these files are hosted on a linux server, I figured the proper
tool to solve this problem would be PERL. The question is, how....if I
open the file with a standard open function, won't it read the file
til the EOF and not beyond?

I understand that SED might be helpful, but I'm sed-impaired, but I'm
working on that.

Any thoughts or ideas?

-- 
-
G. Scott Walters
http://www.apt518.net


From david.alitz at charter.net  Thu Jan 11 06:35:40 2007
From: david.alitz at charter.net (Dave Alitz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 06:35:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID1 to RAID5 migration
Message-ID: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net>

I've got a small server ( 4 drive bays ) with a RAID1 (mirrored) md 
array on two drives that I'd like to convert to RAID5 ( adding two new 
drives -- one active and one as a spare).

I'm starting with 4 drives.  Two active in the current mirror and two 
unused. The process I'm considering:

    Fail and remove a drive from the current md mirror, leaving three 
unused drives
    Create a new RAID5 array
    Add the new md RAID5 device as a member of the degraded mirror
    Wait for mirror to sync (thus copying the existing data to the new 
device)
    fail the remaining drive in the RAID mirror
    remove the old md device
    update GRUB and boot from the new RAID5 device

Does anyone know if md can be used recursively like that?  More 
importantly -- will if cause major problems if I try?  I'm guessing that 
md won't let me do it; but it sure would be easier than moving the files 
by hand.

Dave Alitz


From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Thu Jan 11 14:41:23 2007
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:41:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Latest FC5 kernel
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1168365604.2718.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1168365604.2718.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <26755.168.86.12.2.1168548083.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

> Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 14:09:54 -0600
> From: Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com>

> I may be just a bit befuddled here ... but ... I am trying to upgrade my
> kernel on a Fedora Core 5 system.
>
> I tried using YUM and it did not fly all that well.  There was an error
> message while trying to install the kernel ... some error related to
> grub ... searched the web, but no luck.

Hmm. More information might be useful. I'm running FC5 on one box.

> so ... I run rpm -qa | grep kernel  and I get
>
> 	[rclark at dualasus ~]$ rpm -qa | grep kernel
> 	kernel-smp-2.6.15-1.2054_FC5
> 	kernel-smp-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5

I see you've got the kernel package installed. Odd.

I get this:
  [root at tick ~]# rpm -qa | grep kernel
  kernel-devel-2.6.18-1.2200.fc5
  kernel-devel-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5
  kernel-2.6.18-1.2200.fc5
  kernel-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5
  [root at tick ~]# uname -r
  2.6.18-1.2200.fc5

Grub has entries for those two kernels. (Hmm. I must not have rebooted
after the last kernel update.)

Here's my grub entry for that kernel:
title Fedora Core (2.6.18-1.2257.fc5)
        root (hd0,0)
        kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5 ro root=LABEL=/1
        initrd /initrd-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.img

I did nothing special to any repository or yum configuration. It just works.

"yum update" updates the kernel just like everything else.

> The 2.16.15 version is what I have now.  But ... the grub.conf shows
> nothing related to 2.6.18 ... which I would like to try and install.  I
> tried going out to download the SRC and work at it from that way ... but
> none of the repositories go past the 2.6.15-1.2054.
>
> How does the 2.6.18-1 show up ... how do i install it properly ... and
> why does it not show up out on the repositories?
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Randy

Try yum update. If that doesn't work, try "yum clean all" then "yum
update". Send us the output if the update fails.

Chris





From srcfoo at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 14:51:12 2007
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:51:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Documentation Server
In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <579c6fd30701111251x34dc9012s9e68c9213238e5d4@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Joey Rockhold <joey.rockhold at gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't know if what I am looking for is a Wiki product, or what.  If anyone
> has any ideas on the best way to pool all this information together, it
> would be appreciated.  We do run an internal linux server, but only because
> I set it up and maintain it, otherwise this is a fully Microsoft shop
> (though we have a linux ip phone system going now).  So any products
> mentioned either has to run in a web browser if it is linux based, or on
> Windows desktops.  I would prefer it run in the linux box myself.

A local company, mindtouch, sells a product that should do what you
want. Check them out here:

mindtouch.com

-Eric


From srcfoo at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 15:04:06 2007
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:04:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Latest FC5 kernel
In-Reply-To: <1168286994.11186.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1168286994.11186.7.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <579c6fd30701111304s27e05dc9y1263f4914713a07c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/8/07, Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com> wrote:
> I may be just a bit befuddled here ... but ... I am trying to upgrade my
> kernel on a Fedora Core 5 system.
>
> I tried using YUM and it did not fly all that well.  There was an error
> message while trying to install the kernel ... some error related to
> grub ... searched the web, but no luck.
>
> so ... I run rpm -qa | grep kernel  and I get
>
>         [rclark at dualasus ~]$ rpm -qa | grep kernel
>         kernel-smp-2.6.15-1.2054_FC5
>         kernel-smp-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5
>
> The 2.16.15 version is what I have now.  But ... the grub.conf shows
> nothing related to 2.6.18 ... which I would like to try and install.  I
> tried going out to download the SRC and work at it from that way ... but
> none of the repositories go past the 2.6.15-1.2054.
>
> How does the 2.6.18-1 show up ... how do i install it properly ... and
> why does it not show up out on the repositories?
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Randy

Hi Randy,

For whatever reason, the rpm package couldn't update your
/boot/grub/menu.lst (that's a sym link to /boot/grub/grub.conf in case
your machine is missing it).

First check that it created a new, up-to-date initrd image for the new
kernel. You should find an initrd image file in /boot that has the
kernel version number after it. So it should look something like:

/boot/initrd-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.img

If not, you'll need to create it by using the mkinitrd command like so:

mkinitrd /boot/initrd-2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.img <kernel-version>

Replace <kernel-version> with the directory name in /lib/modules/ that
matches the new kernel version. In your case it will probably be
2.6.18-1.2257.fc5.

Now update your /boot/grub/menu.lst file to include the kernel and
initrd image (I'm assuming the kernel is in the proper place since it
showes the RPM is installed). The simplest way to do that would be to
copy the existing entry for your older kernel and change the version
numbers to match the new kernel on the kernel and initrd lines. Don't
forget to change the title line to reflect the new kernel version.

That should do it.

Good luck!

Eric


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 15:06:06 2007
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:06:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts
In-Reply-To: <bada98250701081250m1768a4d7x71a0f96f2d54094b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bada98250701081250m1768a4d7x71a0f96f2d54094b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A6A6BE.6090403@gmail.com>

Its probably a matter of adding the proper handlers for the file type in 
your httpd.conf file (assuming the modules are loaded already).

If you are seeing it parsed as a text file, the server just doesn't 
realize that it needs to send files with this extension into the module 
- so it guesses at the mime type, and treats it as a text file.

#
# AddHandler allows you to map certain file extensions to "handlers":
# actions unrelated to filetype. These can be either built into the server
# or added with the Action directive (see below)
#
# To use CGI scripts outside of ScriptAliased directories:
# (You will also need to add "ExecCGI" to the "Options" directive.)
#

#AddHandler cgi-script .cgi

I'm not sure on the specifics.  I've done it for php a number of times, 
but not perl.  It probably depends on how the perl module is put together.

For php, I have to do the following:

LoadModule php5_module        modules/libphp5.so

AddType application/x-httpd-php .php






-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From sac at cheesecake.org  Thu Jan 11 15:13:27 2007
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:13:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID1 to RAID5 migration
In-Reply-To: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net>
References: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net>
Message-ID: <20070111211327.GA32233@cheesecake.org>

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 at 06.35.40 -0600, Dave Alitz wrote:
> I'm starting with 4 drives.  Two active in the current mirror and two 
> unused. The process I'm considering:
> 
>     Fail and remove a drive from the current md mirror, leaving three 
> unused drives
>     Create a new RAID5 array
>     Add the new md RAID5 device as a member of the degraded mirror

RAID1 doesn't work the way you think it does.  You'll end up with a
degraded RAID1 made from a RAID5.  It will work though.

I recommend creating a degraded RAID5 from your two unused disks and
doing a copy to the new array.  After the data are copied, fail one disk
out of the old array and add it to the new array, which will cause parity
to be computed.  After that's done, nuke the old array and add the last
disk to the new array as a hot spare.

This way, you end up with one array composed of physical disks, and your
data are always in two places throughout the process.

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From rwh at visi.com  Thu Jan 11 14:54:36 2007
From: rwh at visi.com (rwh)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 14:54:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Problem,
In-Reply-To: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45A6A40C.10700@visi.com>

You may want to take a look at pdftk (http://www.accesspdf.com/pdftk/)
and see if it can read and write the problem files which hopefully gives
you a valid pdf on output.

There are also some Perl modules that can read and write pdf files,
http://search.cpan.org/~antro/PDF-111/PDF.pm

I've used both fairly successfully to create/manage/manipulate a couple
of million pages of survey results and they are both pretty solid.

I think Ghostscript could also 'print' the pdfs to another pdf which
might clear out the errors as well. Finally, Imagemagick can do a
conversion from pdf -> ps -> pdf that might fix things as well, although
it is a lot slower than the other options.

--rick

G. Scott Walters wrote:
> I've got a couple hundred PDF files that have been malformed with some
> extra lines AFTER the EOF. This keeps them from being doing important
> things like printing, or displaying properly on some versions of
> Acrobat. Not all PDFs are necessarily effected with this issue...
> 
> Since these files are hosted on a linux server, I figured the proper
> tool to solve this problem would be PERL. The question is, how....if I
> open the file with a standard open function, won't it read the file
> til the EOF and not beyond?
> 
> I understand that SED might be helpful, but I'm sed-impaired, but I'm
> working on that.
> 
> Any thoughts or ideas?
> 



From admin at lctn.org  Thu Jan 11 10:38:55 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 10:38:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ppd for Konica
Message-ID: <36767.64.8.149.194.1168533535.squirrel@lctn.org>

I am trying to share a Konica Bizhub 350/250 through Ubuntu. I am having
difficulty finding the right driver. Anyone have a link to one that will
give me full function?

Raymond

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From david.alitz at charter.net  Thu Jan 11 16:29:05 2007
From: david.alitz at charter.net (Dave Alitz)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 16:29:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] RAID1 to RAID5 migration
In-Reply-To: <20070111211327.GA32233@cheesecake.org>
References: <45A62F1C.9040204@charter.net>
	<20070111211327.GA32233@cheesecake.org>
Message-ID: <45A6BA31.7000202@charter.net>

Thanks.  After playing with it I figured out I'd still have an md 
superblock for the mirrored array on my disk.  I was hoping I could 
accomplish everything without taking it offline -- I guess not.

P.S. - In case anyone is following along; I'm actually booting from a 
separate mirrored boot partition (/boot).  The RAID5 array holds /, 
/var, and /home.  I won't need to make any changes in GRUB since I'm 
leaving that array alone.  The last I heard, you can't boot from RAID5.

Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 at 06.35.40 -0600, Dave Alitz wrote:
>   
>> I'm starting with 4 drives.  Two active in the current mirror and two 
>> unused. The process I'm considering:
>>
>>     Fail and remove a drive from the current md mirror, leaving three 
>> unused drives
>>     Create a new RAID5 array
>>     Add the new md RAID5 device as a member of the degraded mirror
>>     
>
> RAID1 doesn't work the way you think it does.  You'll end up with a
> degraded RAID1 made from a RAID5.  It will work though.
>
> I recommend creating a degraded RAID5 from your two unused disks and
> doing a copy to the new array.  After the data are copied, fail one disk
> out of the old array and add it to the new array, which will cause parity
> to be computed.  After that's done, nuke the old array and add the last
> disk to the new array as a hot spare.
>
> This way, you end up with one array composed of physical disks, and your
> data are always in two places throughout the process.
>
>   


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Wed Jan 10 05:06:02 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2007 05:06:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701101106.l0AB62O07004@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: misc for sale

Have the following for sale:

Belkin OmniView SE 4-Port KVM - Comes with cables for 4 PC's and rack mount bracket  ($50)

IBM ServerRAID controller FRU# 76H6875   ($20)

SIIG UltraATA 133 PCI controller card   SC-PE4B12     ($15)

Promise ATA RAID controller FastTRAK SX4000  w/256MB RAM ($50)

Linksys Wireless-G Access Point Model: WAP54G  ($40  new in unopened box)

The following cards are free:
Adaptec AHA-2940/2940U SCSI controller
Adaptec AVA-2906 controller
Adaptec AHA-2940 Controller
3-Com  3c905-tx NIC (Qty:2)
USR internal ISA Sportster modem Model#0461
Internal ISA modem (unsure of make/model)

Seller Email address: sfertch at gmail dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From dniesen at gmail.com  Thu Jan 11 17:35:21 2007
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 17:35:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Documentation Server
In-Reply-To: <579c6fd30701111251x34dc9012s9e68c9213238e5d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <101e49ea0701110737w4b9ec6afw5582ed9aaa5a3e7d@mail.gmail.com>
	<579c6fd30701111251x34dc9012s9e68c9213238e5d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701111535q792f8e7fy31a74779cfcad4a@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/11/07, Eric Peterson <srcfoo at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/11/07, Joey Rockhold <joey.rockhold at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't know if what I am looking for is a Wiki product, or what.  If anyone
> > has any ideas on the best way to pool all this information together, it
> > would be appreciated.  We do run an internal linux server, but only because
> > I set it up and maintain it, otherwise this is a fully Microsoft shop
> > (though we have a linux ip phone system going now).  So any products
> > mentioned either has to run in a web browser if it is linux based, or on
> > Windows desktops.  I would prefer it run in the linux box myself.
>
> A local company, mindtouch, sells a product that should do what you
> want. Check them out here:
>
> mindtouch.com
>
> -Eric
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

Looks like what they sell is just DekiWiki in a pre-configured server.
 The Wiki is pretty impressive and may do a lot of what you are
looking to do.  Here's a direct link:

http://www.opengarden.org/dekiwiki

Their demo is pretty impressive as well:

http://mindtouch.com/demo/index.html


-- 
Donovan Niesen


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Jan 11 23:09:14 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:09:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Problem,
In-Reply-To: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701112257220.23204@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 10 Jan 2007, G. Scott Walters wrote:

> I've got a couple hundred PDF files that have been malformed with some 
> extra lines AFTER the EOF. This keeps them from being doing important 
> things like printing, or displaying properly on some versions of 
> Acrobat. Not all PDFs are necessarily effected with this issue...
>
> Since these files are hosted on a linux server, I figured the proper 
> tool to solve this problem would be PERL. The question is, how....if I 
> open the file with a standard open function, won't it read the file til 
> the EOF and not beyond?
>
> I understand that SED might be helpful, but I'm sed-impaired, but I'm 
> working on that.


This should do it:

perl -pi -e 'BEGIN{undef $/} ; s/\A(.+?%%EOF).*\z/$1\n/gs' *.pdf

That will remove everything after the newline following the first %%EOF in 
all .pdf files in the default directory.  I tested it on some files and it 
worked.  It can be used if the file is not corrupted -- it will then leave 
the file unchanged except that it will change the date stamp.  It is 
pretty fast.

Best,
Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Jan 11 23:52:28 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2007 23:52:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Problem,
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701112257220.23204@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <34b4c76d0701100850s3036c918ybd3459765b5941a6@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701112257220.23204@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701112348090.29403@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 11 Jan 2007, Mike Miller wrote:

> This should do it:
>
> perl -pi -e 'BEGIN{undef $/} ; s/\A(.+?%%EOF).*\z/$1\n/gs' *.pdf


By the way, that alters the files in place -- replacing the original with 
the repaired version.  If you want to retain the originals with a .bak 
extension, do this:

perl -pi.bak -e 'BEGIN{undef $/} ; s/\A(.+?%%EOF).*\z/$1\n/gs' *.pdf

Mike


From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com  Fri Jan 12 11:42:32 2007
From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:42:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts
In-Reply-To: <bada98250701081250m1768a4d7x71a0f96f2d54094b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bada98250701081250m1768a4d7x71a0f96f2d54094b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070112174231.GA23155@mail.el-swifto.com>

On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 02:50:15PM -0600, Jordan Peacock wrote:
> We are running a SuSE 10.1 box w/ Apache 2.2.3 compiled w/ mod_perl
> 2.0.3 & perl 5.8.8.
> 
> When we attempt to view .pl/.cgi scripts in a browser, all we get is
> the text of the script displayed:
> 
> eg.
> 
> #!/usr/bin/perl
> print "Content-type: text/plain\r\n\r\n";
> print "Testing mod_perl installation!\n";

It's not clear from your message what configuration you're using.
Here's a link to the "quick start" document on the mod_perl homepage:

  http://perl.apache.org/docs/2.0/user/intro/start_fast.html

perhaps that can point you in the right direction....

-- 
trammell at el-swifto.com  9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58  FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5
Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG)      Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota


From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 11:50:14 2007
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:50:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] mod_perl won't execute .pl scripts
In-Reply-To: <20070112174231.GA23155@mail.el-swifto.com>
References: <bada98250701081250m1768a4d7x71a0f96f2d54094b@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070112174231.GA23155@mail.el-swifto.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250701120950t70d756b3l3daa307c7de182a0@mail.gmail.com>

We got it working. My colleague will follow up with an explanatory post.
Thanks everyone.

On 1/12/07, John J. Trammell <trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Jan 08, 2007 at 02:50:15PM -0600, Jordan Peacock wrote:
> > We are running a SuSE 10.1 box w/ Apache 2.2.3 compiled w/ mod_perl
> > 2.0.3 & perl 5.8.8.
> >
> > When we attempt to view .pl/.cgi scripts in a browser, all we get is
> > the text of the script displayed:
> >
> > eg.
> >
> > #!/usr/bin/perl
> > print "Content-type: text/plain\r\n\r\n";
> > print "Testing mod_perl installation!\n";
>
> It's not clear from your message what configuration you're using.
> Here's a link to the "quick start" document on the mod_perl homepage:
>
>   http://perl.apache.org/docs/2.0/user/intro/start_fast.html
>
> perhaps that can point you in the right direction....
>
> --
> trammell at el-swifto.com  9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58  FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5
> Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG)      Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 

Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com
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From dan at dandrake.org  Fri Jan 12 14:26:15 2007
From: dan at dandrake.org (Dan Drake)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:26:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
Message-ID: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>

I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
anything.

I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and
I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace,
then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim
environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like
to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the
particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment.

Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like
"\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but
that's an ugly solution. 

TIA for the help.

Dan

  1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/
-- 
Ceci n'est pas une .signature.
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jan 12 14:37:59 2007
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:37:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701121436480.23647@Rooster>

Can you do something like !"" ?


On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Dan Drake wrote:

> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
> anything.
>
> I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and
> I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace,
> then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim
> environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like
> to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the
> particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment.
>
> Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like
> "\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but
> that's an ugly solution.
>
> TIA for the help.
>
> Dan
>
>  1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/
> -- 
> Ceci n'est pas une .signature.
>


-Yaron

--


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 14:41:28 2007
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:41:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020701121241x34af24bcyeb2d305d9eec096b@mail.gmail.com>

I'm no regexp expert, but !.* should the opposite of .* (match
everything and nothing).

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0;
0 rows returned


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 14:44:23 2007
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:44:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020701121241x34af24bcyeb2d305d9eec096b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<e3a54b020701121241x34af24bcyeb2d305d9eec096b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020701121244w372fc57s94904e4b77207a9f@mail.gmail.com>

Err, never mind me that's not right. It's been a long day and I left
my regex book at home. ;)

On 1/12/07, Andrew Zbikowski <andyzib at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm no regexp expert, but !.* should the opposite of .* (match
> everything and nothing).

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0;
0 rows returned


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 14:57:48 2007
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:57:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020701121244w372fc57s94904e4b77207a9f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<e3a54b020701121241x34af24bcyeb2d305d9eec096b@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3a54b020701121244w372fc57s94904e4b77207a9f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020701121257y7e1197afyc511328a4e5b4b71@mail.gmail.com>

OK, I'm willing to try sticking my foot in my mouth one more time. ;-)

Negative lookahead if you want to match something not followed by
something else. Like if you wanted to find a q that wasn't followed by
a u: q(?!u)

So say we want to match anything zero or more times that isn't
followed by anything zero or more times...

.*(?!.*)

I can't find anything that the above regex will match, and if I change
it to a positive look ahead .*(?=.*) it matches everything...

It might work. Good luck.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue >0;
0 rows returned


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Fri Jan 12 14:56:46 2007
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:56:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701121436480.23647@Rooster>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0701121436480.23647@Rooster>
Message-ID: <1168635406.29929.1169005671@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Wouldn't that match everything?


----- Original message -----
From: "Yaron" <tclug at freakzilla.com>
To: "TCLUG" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:37:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?

Can you do something like !"" ?


On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Dan Drake wrote:

> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
> anything.
>
> I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and
> I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace,
> then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim
> environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like
> to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the
> particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment.
>
> Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like
> "\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but
> that's an ugly solution.
>
> TIA for the help.
>
> Dan
>
>  1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/
> -- 
> Ceci n'est pas une .signature.
>


-Yaron

--

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From s.earl.martin at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 15:17:36 2007
From: s.earl.martin at gmail.com (Sam Martin)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 15:17:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <d9a50e890701121317t56f28efdt864ec9beaf664469@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote:
> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
> anything.

How about "(?!)" ?

For the record, I googled '"regular expression" "never matches"', and
came up with the following from a paper about creating a regex
debugger in perl (http://perl.plover.com/Rx/paper/):

". . . (?!) is a pattern that never matches anything, so when the
regex engine reaches it, it is forced to backtrack. "

sm


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Fri Jan 12 14:55:02 2007
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:55:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <1168635302.29746.1169003937@webmail.messagingengine.com>

This means that you know when you're in the verbatim area since you'll
have to know when to switch the regex object.
With this knowledge block out the "comment found" part of your code when
you're in the verbatim environment. The implementation is up to your
imagination.


----- Original message -----
From: "Dan Drake" <dan at dandrake.org>
To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:26:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?

I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
anything.

I'm working with a Python script that parses LaTeX documents [1], and
I'm using a regexp to find comments (beginning of line, any whitespace,
then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim
environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like
to use some sort of regexp that never matches, so I can just switch the
particular regexp object I'm using while parsing such an environment.

Any suggestions? I could randomly generate a bizarre string (like
"\y;$j[3o*6I[/W~fq\+l|~yr~as") which in practical terms will work, but
that's an ugly solution. 

TIA for the help.

Dan

  1. http://www.pps.jussieu.fr/~beffara/soft/rubber/
-- 
Ceci n'est pas une .signature.


From srcfoo at gmail.com  Fri Jan 12 16:05:29 2007
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 16:05:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <579c6fd30701121405ve258418heac22c2ea900bcc5@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/12/07, Dan Drake <dan at dandrake.org> wrote:
> then a percent sign: "^\s*%"). But in the middle of the verbatim
> environment, it shouldn't interpret anything as comments -- so I'd like

Dan,

I don't understand why you'd want to waste cpu cycles checking a
regular expression if you know that you are either in the "verbatim
environment" or not, which you imply you know if you can switch re
objects.

If you're using readlines() on the file object to parse it, couldn't
you simply set a flag when you find the start of your verbatim section
and unset the flag when you find the end? Then as long as that flag is
set you'd simply call "continue" to get to the next line after
checking for the end of the verbatim section.

How do you know that you're in the "verbatim environment"?

Cheers!

Eric


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jan 12 18:31:43 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 18:31:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <d9a50e890701121317t56f28efdt864ec9beaf664469@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<d9a50e890701121317t56f28efdt864ec9beaf664469@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701121823260.29136@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 12 Jan 2007, Sam Martin wrote:

> On 1/12/07, Dan Drake wrote:
>> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
>> anything.
>
> How about "(?!)" ?
>
> For the record, I googled '"regular expression" "never matches"', and 
> came up with the following from a paper about creating a regex debugger 
> in perl (http://perl.plover.com/Rx/paper/):
>
> ". . . (?!) is a pattern that never matches anything, so when the regex 
> engine reaches it, it is forced to backtrack. "


In case anyone is interested in more on this, from "man perlre":

      `(?!pattern)'
                A zero-width negative look-ahead assertion.  For
                example `/foo(?!bar)/' matches any occurrence of
                "foo" that isn't followed by "bar".  Note however
                that look-ahead and look-behind are NOT the same
                thing.  You cannot use this for look-behind.

                If you are looking for a "bar" that isn't preceded
                by a "foo", `/(?!foo)bar/' will not do what you
                want.  That's because the `(?!foo)' is just saying
                that the next thing cannot be "foo"--and it's not,
                it's a "bar", so "foobar" will match.  You would
                have to do something like `/(?!foo)...bar/' for
                that.   We say "like" because there's the case of
                your "bar" not having three characters before it.
                You could cover that this way:
                `/(?:(?!foo)...|^.{0,2})bar/'.  Sometimes it's
                still easier just to say:

                    if (/bar/ && $` !~ /foo$/)

                For look-behind see below.


From esper at sherohman.org  Sat Jan 13 12:20:59 2007
From: esper at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 12:20:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <d9a50e890701121317t56f28efdt864ec9beaf664469@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<d9a50e890701121317t56f28efdt864ec9beaf664469@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070113182059.GS6486@genma.sherohman.org>

On Fri, Jan 12, 2007 at 03:17:36PM -0600, Sam Martin wrote:
> ". . . (?!) is a pattern that never matches anything, so when the
> regex engine reaches it, it is forced to backtrack. "

Aye, and that's the flaw I see in this scheme...  Backtracking.
Whenever the regex engine hits the unmatchable (part of) your regex,
it will happily back up, be a little less greedy, and try again to
find a match.  This can be a very expensive process, especially if your
unmatchable bit is preceded by (or includes) a .* or similar token.

Isaac and Eric have the right idea:  Don't use an unmatchable regex, use
a flag that tells you not to run a regex at all.  It'll be much faster.

-- 
I would rather be exposed to the inconvenience attending too much Liberty
than those attending too small degree of it.
  - Thomas Jefferson


From vandongend at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 13 14:10:47 2007
From: vandongend at yahoo.com (David Van Dongen)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 12:10:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Need  help installing on a ThinkPad
Message-ID: <855782.75852.qm@web53608.mail.yahoo.com>


I have two questions:

I need help installing Ubuntu on my ThinkPad.  It does
not recognize the external CD-ROM as a boot device,
and sbootmgr does not see it either.  Any suggestions?

When does the group meet?

David


 
____________________________________________________________________________________
Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate 
in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545367


From dan at dandrake.org  Sat Jan 13 14:30:56 2007
From: dan at dandrake.org (Dan Drake)
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 2007 14:30:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <20070113203056.GA9587@dandrake.org>

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll try some of those and see what
works.

Dan

-- 
Ceci n'est pas une .signature.
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From slushpupie at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 08:44:41 2007
From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( )
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:44:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
Message-ID: <ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/12/07, Dan Drake <dan at dandrake.org> wrote:
> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
> anything.

Ive used  $^ before.  But it does depend on how you are using it.  the
end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^
match new-lines.



-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 15 09:15:59 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:15:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007,   wrote:

> On 1/12/07, Dan Drake <dan at dandrake.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match 
>> anything.
>
> Ive used $^ before.  But it does depend on how you are using it.  the 
> end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^ 
> match new-lines.


I don't understand how that can fail.  How can $ and ^ match newlines? 
Is that something that can be affected by command line arguments?  When I 
tried it, it seemed to work very well, so I like your idea.  It does not 
match anything in a string of consecutive newlines, for example.

Mike


From slushpupie at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 09:41:45 2007
From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( )
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:41:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <ace41e70701150741p4ba228cfr592df602fa59d50a@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007,   wrote:
>
> > On 1/12/07, Dan Drake <dan at dandrake.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
> >> anything.
> >
> > Ive used $^ before.  But it does depend on how you are using it.  the
> > end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^
> > match new-lines.
>
>
> I don't understand how that can fail.  How can $ and ^ match newlines?
> Is that something that can be affected by command line arguments?  When I
> tried it, it seemed to work very well, so I like your idea.  It does not
> match anything in a string of consecutive newlines, for example.
>

Im not a big python person, but in perl if you add the m modifier for
"multiple lines" it changes the definition of ^ and $ to match
newlines.  I assumed python would have something like it.  As long as
they keep their standard definitions, though, you should never find
the end of a string before the beginning.

-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/


From clay at fandre.com  Mon Jan 15 10:11:05 2007
From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:11:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Volunteers
Message-ID: <45ABA799.1090208@fandre.com>

As most of you know, the TCLUG meetings has been pretty inactive over
the last year or so. This has been because of the lack of time to get
things coordinated, mainly because of my kids taking up all of my free
time. But I would like to get the group back on it's feet and back to a
point where we have regular monthly (or bi-monthly) meetings. But in
order to do that I need some help. So if anyone is willing to donate
their time to the cause, please let me know. Here are some of the areas
I would like help with:

1. Coordinating monthly meetings. (Scheduling/Booking meeting locations)
2. Soliciting speakers and/or deciding topics
3. Special events coordinator (installfests, other local events)

If you are interested in helping out, please let me know. If you do
volunteer, you will get a free lifetime membership to the TCLUG and your
name on the tclug website if you desire. How can you pass that up?

Thanks and happy Linux'ing!

-- Clay


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 15 10:14:51 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:14:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <ace41e70701150741p4ba228cfr592df602fa59d50a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> 
	<ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ace41e70701150741p4ba228cfr592df602fa59d50a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151011360.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007,   wrote:

> On 1/15/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007,   wrote:
>> 
>> > On 1/12/07, Dan Drake <dan at dandrake.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I'm looking for a regular expression that's guaranteed to never match
>> >> anything.
>> >
>> > Ive used $^ before.  But it does depend on how you are using it.  the
>> > end-of-string followed by a beginning-of-string can show up if $ and ^
>> > match new-lines.
>> 
>> 
>> I don't understand how that can fail.  How can $ and ^ match newlines?
>> Is that something that can be affected by command line arguments?  When I
>> tried it, it seemed to work very well, so I like your idea.  It does not
>> match anything in a string of consecutive newlines, for example.
>
>
> Im not a big python person, but in perl if you add the m modifier for 
> "multiple lines" it changes the definition of ^ and $ to match newlines. 
> I assumed python would have something like it.  As long as they keep 
> their standard definitions, though, you should never find the end of a 
> string before the beginning.


I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp.  Still, I mostly use 
perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better.  I can't 
get it to mess up.  For example:

# echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms'
abcd

efgh

What am I doing wrong?  I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match 
anything.

Mike


From slushpupie at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 11:56:57 2007
From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( )
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 11:56:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151011360.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ace41e70701150741p4ba228cfr592df602fa59d50a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151011360.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <ace41e70701150956j43afe13ds6cff769b2dcb255@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp.  Still, I mostly use
> perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better.  I can't
> get it to mess up.  For example:
>
> # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms'
> abcd
>
> efgh
>
> What am I doing wrong?  I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match
> anything.

You are right, I cant get it to match either.  Though, I think it
should.  (Ive never *needed* to match that before)  If you are trying
to match end-of-line followed by beginning-of-line, that should be a
perfectly valid sequence when you have a few blank lines in there, as
per your example.  So how would one go about matching that? In a more
"rational" case, you should be able to something like this:

$_ = "foo\n\n\nbar";
if(/^$^$/ms) {  print "it has 2 blank lines in a row\n"; }

But that dosnt seem to match either.  Now you have me wondering...


-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/


From slushpupie at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 12:03:48 2007
From: slushpupie at gmail.com ( )
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:03:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <ace41e70701150956j43afe13ds6cff769b2dcb255@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org>
	<ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ace41e70701150741p4ba228cfr592df602fa59d50a@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151011360.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ace41e70701150956j43afe13ds6cff769b2dcb255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ace41e70701151003w196dddc7u61fc236424d4c10@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/07, slushpupie at gmail.com <slushpupie at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1/15/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> > I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp.  Still, I mostly use
> > perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better.  I can't
> > get it to mess up.  For example:
> >
> > # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms'
> > abcd
> >
> > efgh
> >
> > What am I doing wrong?  I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match
> > anything.
>

Bah.  After a little more careful reading, ^ and $ match just before
and after a newline.  Not the newline itself.  Therefore it is
impossible to have $^ match anything.

-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 15 12:08:01 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:08:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <ace41e70701150956j43afe13ds6cff769b2dcb255@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> 
	<ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
	<ace41e70701150741p4ba228cfr592df602fa59d50a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151011360.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ace41e70701150956j43afe13ds6cff769b2dcb255@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151204200.20461@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007,   wrote:

> On 1/15/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>> I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp.  Still, I mostly use
>> perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better.  I can't
>> get it to mess up.  For example:
>> 
>> # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms'
>> abcd
>> 
>> efgh
>> 
>> What am I doing wrong?  I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match
>> anything.
>
> You are right, I cant get it to match either.  Though, I think it
> should.  (Ive never *needed* to match that before)  If you are trying
> to match end-of-line followed by beginning-of-line, that should be a
> perfectly valid sequence when you have a few blank lines in there, as
> per your example.  So how would one go about matching that? In a more
> "rational" case, you should be able to something like this:
>
> $_ = "foo\n\n\nbar";
> if(/^$^$/ms) {  print "it has 2 blank lines in a row\n"; }
>
> But that dosnt seem to match either.  Now you have me wondering...


Of course, the good thing about this is that you didn't want it to match! 
The idea was to find a string that matched nothing.  So far, so good.  ;-)

Also, "$^" is way better than "(?!)" because "$^" is presumably always 
very fast.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 15 12:08:40 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 12:08:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] regular expression that never matches?
In-Reply-To: <ace41e70701151003w196dddc7u61fc236424d4c10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20070112202615.GA8259@dandrake.org> 
	<ace41e70701150644o77c4f636t3bca5122c1515547@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701150911190.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
	<ace41e70701150741p4ba228cfr592df602fa59d50a@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151011360.940@taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
	<ace41e70701150956j43afe13ds6cff769b2dcb255@mail.gmail.com>
	<ace41e70701151003w196dddc7u61fc236424d4c10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701151208110.20461@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007,   wrote:

> On 1/15/07, slushpupie at gmail.com <slushpupie at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 1/15/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>> > I had forgotten that this was about a python regexp.  Still, I mostly 
>> use
>> > perl and I am interested personally in understanding this better.  I 
>> can't
>> > get it to mess up.  For example:
>> >
>> > # echo 'abcd efgh' | gawk '{print $1"\n\n"$2}' | perl -pe 's/$^/X/ms'
>> > abcd
>> >
>> > efgh
>> >
>> > What am I doing wrong?  I can't figure out how to get "$^" to match
>> > anything.
>> 
>
> Bah.  After a little more careful reading, ^ and $ match just before
> and after a newline.  Not the newline itself.  Therefore it is
> impossible to have $^ match anything.


Excellent.  That is what I thought.  So I think you have the best answer 
so far to the question.

Mike


From jesse_s at beezwax.net  Wed Jan  3 10:15:53 2007
From: jesse_s at beezwax.net (Jesse Sanford)
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2007 08:15:53 -0800
Subject: [tclug-list] PHP misery with Apache and MySQL on Debian Sarge
Message-ID: <06102789-4560-40CB-A3A8-E16EA273CFA8@beezwax.net>


Hi Steve,

I've been seeing exactly the same problem you described in your post  
to the tclug-list on July 6, right down to the same function calls.   
Also using debian packages php4-mysql, etc., and Apache 1.3 from sarge.

Did you ever solve this problem?  Anyone else report it that you found?

Thanks very much for your help!  (Open Source rocks.)







--
Jesse Sanford <jesse_s at beezwax.net>
Infrastructure Architect
beezwax datatools, inc.
486 Mandana Blvd., Ste. 6
Oakland, CA  94610
direct (415)794-4393 office (510) 835-4483
www.beezwax.net




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From becca at ilsr.org  Fri Jan  5 14:34:11 2007
From: becca at ilsr.org (Becca Vargo Daggett)
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 14:34:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Community Discussion of Municipal Wireless
Message-ID: <FBEA3822-B735-4927-9C08-4330B26031EF@ilsr.org>

Please join Concordia's College of Business and Organizational  
Leadership for a community discussion of municipal wireless. This  
event will use futurist Joel Barker's tool for understanding change.  
The "Implications Wheel" draws upon group wisdom to quickly and  
effectively uncover the short and long term implications of any change.

Topic: Should Wi-Fi in Saint Paul be publicly or privately owned?
When: 3:30-6 p.m., Jan. 17, 2007
Where: Library & Technology Center, Concordia University
Hosted by: Concordia University College of Business and  
Organizational Leadership

Participants will uncover second- and third-order implications of  
citywide wireless projects. Saint Paul is the example, but residents  
and decision makers in all metro cities can learn from the exercise.

The event is free, but you must register online at:
http://www.csp.edu/CBOL/strategicdiscovery/

Send questions to:
strategicdiscovery at csp.edu

Joel Barker - "We did a wheel for NASA on a project they had been  
considering for a year. In three hours, our team had identified a  
dozen implications as important as any their experts had uncovered.  
The director had to start over in his assessment of the project."

Read a Pioneer Press article about Joel Barker and the Implications  
Wheel:
http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/business/special_packages/ 
biz_home/15924801.htm

Register online at:
http://www.csp.edu/CBOL/strategicdiscovery/


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From dutchwaffles at gmail.com  Sun Jan 14 21:55:30 2007
From: dutchwaffles at gmail.com (Rey Willems)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 21:55:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New install fest
Message-ID: <aef7ce190701141955u4fe19f93s9ea453193a191188@mail.gmail.com>

 Hello


I would like some help in the switch to linux then I found the site of the
minneapolis user group. I have been looking to convert to Linux how ever
I'm not too great computer so I would like a little help.  IF any one would
like to help me convert please let me know.

I would be interested in converting my PC.  I am also interested in possibly
converting my x box to a Linux machine if you know anyone that has been
involved with that.

Thank you for the time,  Ryan
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From swaite at sbn-services.com  Mon Jan 15 13:33:48 2007
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:33:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>

I have been 
calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a 
decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the 
mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business 
services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years back 
this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence for so 
long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a decent 
DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am looking to host 

my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR 
record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this since 
they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR 

record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated










Sean Waite
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From nate at refried.org  Mon Jan 15 13:46:53 2007
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:46:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <20070115194653.GB3885@refried.org>

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 01:33:48PM -0600, Sean Waite wrote:
> I have been 
> calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a 
> decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the 

Check out visi.com.

http://home.visi.com/services/dsl/dsl_standard.html

Nate


From srcfoo at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 13:56:16 2007
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:56:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <579c6fd30701151156k6b785aa6xf5e105a07af93749@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/07, Sean Waite <swaite at sbn-services.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have been calling around to different services without luck so far trying
> to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the
> mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business
> services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years back
> this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence for so
> long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a decent
> DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am looking to host
> my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR
> record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this since
> they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR
> record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated

Have you looked at Comcast's business service? They offer static IP
and the prices are pretty good depending on what you need. Their
lowest end service is just slightly more expensive then the normal
residential service.

The best bang for you buck IMO is at the 4M down/ 768K up for $90.
Don't quote me on those numbers, but I think they're close.

-Eric


From tclug at natecarlson.com  Mon Jan 15 14:00:11 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:00:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701151359330.6301@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Sean Waite wrote:
> The catch is I need a static IP. So far the mainstream companies like 
> Qwest only offer this with their Business services, which can not be 
> installed at a residence.

Qwest will install business services at a residence; they charge something 
like $13/mo for the ISP service, IIRC.

I also highly recommend ipHouse - http://www.ipHouse.com. Tell 'em I sent 
you.  :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 13:59:38 2007
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:59:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <45ABDD2A.1030401@gmail.com>

Could you get by using something like http://www.dyndns.com/services/ ?

I've used them for quite some time (for free!) to get a name to map back 
to my dynamic comcast address.

They have fairly cheap pay services for more advanced needs.  Probably a 
lot cheaper than business package dsl.

Dan


-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From sos at zjod.net  Mon Jan 15 13:58:52 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:58:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <200701151958.l0FJwqqZ006676@zjod.net>

Sean Waite wrote:
> 
> I have been 
> calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a 
> decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the 
> mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business 
> services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years back 
> this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence for so 
> long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a decent 
> DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am looking to host 
> 
> my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR 
> record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this since 
> they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR 
> 
> record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated
> 
> Sean Waite

Actually, you don't need a static IP to run an email or http server.
There are dynamic DNS servers out there that let you send/receive
email as "sean at Waite.org" (or whatever) and host a web server at
your domain, too.  Google "Dynamic DNS service" (with the quotes)
for a list of suppliers.

I'm using www.tzo.com dynamic DNS service.  Been with 'em for 5+ years
and it works great... oh yeah... my net-tone supplier is Comcast.

Costs involved are:
	- monthly Comcast service (you're already paying this)
	- a domain name ($10-35/year)
	- a DNS forwarding agent ($0-60/year)

Hope this helps,

-S
 sos at zjod.net
 http://zjod.net


From drue at therub.org  Mon Jan 15 13:53:46 2007
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 13:53:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <20070115195346.GR37321@therub.org>

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 01:33:48PM -0600, Sean Waite wrote:
> 
>    I have been calling around to different services without luck so far
>    trying to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static
>    IP. So far the mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with
>    their Business services, which can not be installed at a residence. I
>    remember years back this was not the case, but since I have used cable
>    for my residence for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it
>    still possible to get a decent DSL service with static IP? The reason
>    I need static is I am looking to host my own e-mail and web, which not
>    only requires just a static IP but a PTR record as well. I had thought
>    that my present Comcast could do this since they really do not chance
>    the IP address, but they are not going to do a PTR record for you. Any
>    help on what I can do would be much appreciated

This topic seems to come up every 6-9 months..  

If you have Qwest for telephone service, which it sounds like you do, I
can *highly* recommend IPHouse.  Visi is also very good.  They will set
you up with a static, or many statics - PTR, the whole shabang. 

If you're stuck in sprint land, like me, ..  No Dice.  

Dan


From sos at zjod.net  Mon Jan 15 14:16:29 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:16:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers?
Message-ID: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net>


Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like:
	> X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4
and
	> X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4

Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others.

-S


From radke at winternet.com  Mon Jan 15 14:26:06 2007
From: radke at winternet.com (Joshua Radke)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:26:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701151359330.6301@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701151359330.6301@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <op.tl7ppsy9eclzwf@jradke.gallipot.com>

Hrm, I am just in the process of setting up a FC6 machine at home, spurred
by the sudden appearance of quest DSL in our neighborhood (I was thrilled
to get off of Comcast's terms of service).  I have the residential
service, and pay $5.95/month for a static IP.  They will provide
a single reverse DNS entry for your static IP (accessible from their
website tools).  It may be that they're being more 'generous' because of
their new presense in the neighborhood, I'm not sure.


On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:00:11 -0600, Nate Carlson <tclug at natecarlson.com>  
wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Sean Waite wrote:
>> The catch is I need a static IP. So far the mainstream companies like
>> Qwest only offer this with their Business services, which can not be
>> installed at a residence.
>
> Qwest will install business services at a residence; they charge  
> something
> like $13/mo for the ISP service, IIRC.
>
> I also highly recommend ipHouse - http://www.ipHouse.com. Tell 'em I sent
> you.  :)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
> |       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From sfertch at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 14:27:15 2007
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:27:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <20070115195346.GR37321@therub.org>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
	<20070115195346.GR37321@therub.org>
Message-ID: <67f3084a0701151227n4367341an4986ddbe4a25d8cf@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/15/07, Dan Rue <drue at therub.org> wrote:
>
> This topic seems to come up every 6-9 months..
>
> If you have Qwest for telephone service, which it sounds like you do, I
> can *highly* recommend IPHouse.  Visi is also very good.  They will set
> you up with a static, or many statics - PTR, the whole shabang.
>
> If you're stuck in sprint land, like me, ..  No Dice.
>

You can get static IP's with Qwest and you don't even need a business
account to do it:

Qwest internet basic   $29.99 to $49.99 a month IIRC for the line
depending on speed
$10.99 for ISP services (no e-mail, website, etc)
$14.99 for a block of 8 static IP's.

I just dropped my static IP's from Qwest which I've had for over 3
years.  Aside from having a buried line go bad during heavy rains a
couple years ago, and some headaches of moving DSL services from one
phoneline to the other, I've never had a problem with Qwest service.

Some people just absolutely hate them and will bitch about anything
because they don't like Qwest.  Then again, many of these same people
are those that will find something to bitch about regardless of what
it is.

-- 
-Shawn

-Nemo me impune lacessit.  Ne Obliviscaris..


From tim at filn.net  Mon Jan 15 14:16:13 2007
From: tim at filn.net (Tim Erlin)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:16:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <45ABE10D.2020406@filn.net>

www.speakeasy.net

Nationwide DSL service, also hosting and VoIP. Traditionally good
service with technical folks. They also don't balk when you're talking
to support and they find our you're on Linux.

--Tim

Sean Waite wrote:
> I have been calling around to different services without luck so far
> trying to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP.
> So far the mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their
> Business services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember
> years back this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my
> residence for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still
> possible to get a decent DSL service with static IP? The reason I need
> static is I am looking to host my own e-mail and web, which not only
> requires just a static IP but a PTR record as well. I had thought that
> my present Comcast could do this since they really do not chance the IP
> address, but they are not going to do a PTR record for you. Any help on
> what I can do would be much appreciated
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
>  
> 
>  
> Sean Waite
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-- 
-| Tim Erlin
-| tim at filn.net
-| http://www.filn.net


From h.iverson at gmail.com  Mon Jan 15 14:42:03 2007
From: h.iverson at gmail.com (Harlan Iverson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:42:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers?
In-Reply-To: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net>
References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net>
Message-ID: <25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com>

Usually grey list delays will only happen on somebody's first email. I don't
kow the history behind the emails those headers were attached to, but my bet
would be that the first is a known poster while the second is a first-time
poster.

On 1/15/07, Steve Siegfried <sos at zjod.net> wrote:
>
>
> Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like:
>        > X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4
> and
>        > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4
>
> Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others.
>
> -S
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From josh at joshwelch.com  Mon Jan 15 14:23:39 2007
From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:23:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers?
In-Reply-To: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net>
References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net>
Message-ID: <20070115142339.gqbdzp0jjw8wkc8s@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>

Quoting Steve Siegfried <sos at zjod.net>:

>
> Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like:
> 	> X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4
> and
> 	> X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4
>
> Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others.
>
> -S
>

There was a recent discussion of greylisting on the list not too long 
ago, and you can find out more on greylisting via Google. Basically, 
the first time you send an email you will get delayed until your mail 
server retries, which a spam zombie won't generally do. After that 
first delay and retry your future mail should go through without delay, 
unless your mail system is doing something foolish.

It's nothing personal.

Josh




From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Mon Jan 15 14:56:30 2007
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A (MN14))
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:56:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <45ABDD2A.1030401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AA3F3B3134B63643A9BCE9BB74F58FEC01ABD4F1@MN65EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>


Sean Waite wrote:

> Could you get by using something like http://www.dyndns.com/services/
?

Excellent suggestion!  I've used dyndns.org free service for about 6
years: more reliable than Qwest's DSL service.  

You need to run a client program - checks your ip every few minutes and
updates DynDns's DNS when there's a change.  You also have to update
every 15 days even if there's no change (they don't want to maintain
records for dead names).  

There's a number of 3rd party clients available.  I can recommend
ddclient (perl).

http://www.dyndns.com/support/clients/third-party.html 





From tanner at real-time.com  Mon Jan 15 14:56:11 2007
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:56:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers?
References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net>
	<25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <eogppb$61c$1@sea.gmane.org>

Harlan Iverson wrote:

> Usually grey list delays will only happen on somebody's first email. I
> don't kow the history behind the emails those headers were attached to,
> but my bet would be that the first is a known poster while the second is a
> first-time poster.
> 
> On 1/15/07, Steve Siegfried <sos at zjod.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like:
>> > X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4
>> and
>> > X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4
>>

Bingo!

More details. If you haven't posted in 15 days, your whitelist entry will be
purged from the database and you'll have to "re-greylist" 

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288



From sos at zjod.net  Mon Jan 15 14:58:42 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 14:58:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers?
In-Reply-To: <20070115142339.gqbdzp0jjw8wkc8s@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>
Message-ID: <200701152058.l0FKwg97026373@zjod.net>

Josh Welch wrote:
> 
> Quoting Steve Siegfried <sos at zjod.net>:
> 
> >
> > Hey, what's the deal with TCLUG email headers like:
> > 	> X-Greylist: domain auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.4
> > and
> > 	> X-Greylist: delayed 00:05:08 by SQLgrey-1.7.4
> >
> > Seems like some of the folks posting here are more equal than others.
> >
> > -S
> >
> 
> There was a recent discussion of greylisting on the list not too long 
> ago, and you can find out more on greylisting via Google. Basically, 
> the first time you send an email you will get delayed until your mail 
> server retries, which a spam zombie won't generally do. After that 
> first delay and retry your future mail should go through without delay, 
> unless your mail system is doing something foolish.
> 
> It's nothing personal.
> 
> Josh
> 

... with a nightly update or some such, right?

I'm normally a tclug mailing list lurker, but 2 (with this post, 3)
emails to the list today gave me the "X-Greylist: delayed" header
and I wondered about it.

thanks and never mind'idly,

-S


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Mon Jan 15 15:03:23 2007
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:03:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
References: <200701151958.l0FJwqqZ006676@zjod.net>
Message-ID: <cone.1168895003.277376.26763.1001@home>

Steve Siegfried writes:

> Actually, you don't need a static IP to run an email or http server.
> There are dynamic DNS servers out there that let you send/receive
> email as "sean at Waite.org" (or whatever) and host a web server at
> your domain, too.  Google "Dynamic DNS service" (with the quotes)
> for a list of suppliers.
> 
> I'm using www.tzo.com dynamic DNS service.  Been with 'em for 5+ years
> and it works great... oh yeah... my net-tone supplier is Comcast.
> 
> Costs involved are:
> 	- monthly Comcast service (you're already paying this)
> 	- a domain name ($10-35/year)
> 	- a DNS forwarding agent ($0-60/year)

I would urge you NOT to do it this way. while the rfcs are a bit fuzzy on 
the issue, an SMTP server should have matching forward and reverse dns 
entries and many anti spam features make use of this.

I've been doing it for a long time and i am starting to see major 
ISPs and email providers(like Hotmail and AOL) do the same and reject mail 
when forward and reverse dns does not match. There is no reason why a 
legitimate mail server does not have matching dns entries.

Do yourself and all of us a favor and do the right thing; use a mail 
server that has matching forward and reverse dns matching.

--
Munir Nassar


From sos at zjod.net  Mon Jan 15 15:23:25 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:23:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <cone.1168895003.277376.26763.1001@home>
Message-ID: <200701152123.l0FLNPXU027949@zjod.net>

Munir Nassar wrote:
> 
> Steve Siegfried writes:
> 
> > Actually, you don't need a static IP to run an email or http server.
> > There are dynamic DNS servers out there that let you send/receive
> > email as "sean at Waite.org" (or whatever) and host a web server at
> > your domain, too.  Google "Dynamic DNS service" (with the quotes)
> > for a list of suppliers.
> > 
> > I'm using www.tzo.com dynamic DNS service.  Been with 'em for 5+ years
> > and it works great... oh yeah... my net-tone supplier is Comcast.
> > 
> > Costs involved are:
> > 	- monthly Comcast service (you're already paying this)
> > 	- a domain name ($10-35/year)
> > 	- a DNS forwarding agent ($0-60/year)
> 
> I would urge you NOT to do it this way. while the rfcs are a bit fuzzy on 
> the issue, an SMTP server should have matching forward and reverse dns 
> entries and many anti spam features make use of this.
> 
> I've been doing it for a long time and i am starting to see major 
> ISPs and email providers(like Hotmail and AOL) do the same and reject mail 
> when forward and reverse dns does not match. There is no reason why a 
> legitimate mail server does not have matching dns entries.
> 
> Do yourself and all of us a favor and do the right thing; use a mail 
> server that has matching forward and reverse dns matching.
> 

You get around that issue by using "Smart" relay host, which for Comcast
looks like (in sendmail.cf):
	> # "Smart" relay host (may be null)
	> DSsmtp.comcast.net

Hotmail, AOL, et al have been rejecting mail when forward/reverse DNS
do not match for quite some time... like since CodeRed came out in 2001
(or was it the ILOVEYOU virus in 2000?).


From sraun at fireopal.org  Mon Jan 15 15:11:40 2007
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 15:11:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X-Greylist headers?
In-Reply-To: <25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200701152016.l0FKGTXP011876@zjod.net>
	<25097ca30701151242t3720d847o3ec6352e850b8d6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070115211140.GA19994@fireopal.org>

On Mon, Jan 15, 2007 at 02:42:03PM -0600, Harlan Iverson wrote:
> Usually grey list delays will only happen on somebody's first email.

I thought that grey lists were normally configured to clear out their
'accept from' databases after some period of inactivity - the most
common numbers I recall are 14 and 30 days.

-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org


From adam at askewview.net  Mon Jan 15 17:08:18 2007
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 17:08:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>

I've got a DSL line from Qwest at my home. For my internet provider I'm
using Qwest.net internet services. I have this at my residence and they
allow for static IPs.

-Adam

On Mon, January 15, 2007 1:33 pm, Sean Waite wrote:
> I have been
> calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a
> decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the
> mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business
> services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years
> back this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence
> for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a
> decent DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am
> looking to host
>
> my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR
>  record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this
> since they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to
> do a PTR
>
> record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Sean Waite
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



From jlund at portrait.com  Mon Jan 15 17:28:39 2007
From: jlund at portrait.com (James Lund)
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 17:28:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
	<1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
Message-ID: <45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com>


I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced
competitively.  Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice.

James.

Adam wrote:
> I've got a DSL line from Qwest at my home. For my internet provider I'm
> using Qwest.net internet services. I have this at my residence and they
> allow for static IPs.
> 
> -Adam
> 
> On Mon, January 15, 2007 1:33 pm, Sean Waite wrote:
>> I have been
>> calling around to different services without luck so far trying to get a
>> decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the
>> mainstream companies like Qwest only offer this with their Business
>> services, which can not be installed at a residence. I remember years
>> back this was not the case, but since I have used cable for my residence
>> for so long I am somewhat behind the times. Is it still possible to get a
>> decent DSL service with static IP? The reason I need static is I am
>> looking to host
>>
>> my own e-mail and web, which not only requires just a static IP but a PTR
>>  record as well. I had thought that my present Comcast could do this
>> since they really do not chance the IP address, but they are not going to
>> do a PTR
>>
>> record for you. Any help on what I can do would be much appreciated
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sean Waite
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From tj at kewlness.net  Tue Jan 16 00:48:29 2007
From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 00:48:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
Message-ID: <45AC753D.90605@kewlness.net>

Sean,

There are ways you can be obnoxious, sneaky, or simply cost effective, and tunnel/proxy a two way connection to serve traffic from home even with a dynamic DSL assignment.  You need an external IP address somewhere to tunnel to, obviously.  I wouldn't recommend it, if performance is a concern.  It involves a little bit of rerouting, but it's mildly entertaining.

No matter that they block certain ports, either.  There are ways around that, as long as you can establish an outgoing connection to create the tunnel in the first place. I hope it doesn't sound too shady.  It's actually quite legitimate and very practical if you are stuck between a rock and the wall.

I just thought I'd mention it if you are desperate for a stopgap measure until you can get something else set up.  If you are interested, please email me, and I'll chat with you about it.


-- 
T.J.



====================================================
"I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the 
interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its 
unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools 
than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been 
to create and use a language that does not overload the 
whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details."
-- Erik Naggum

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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Tue Jan 16 08:43:28 2007
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 08:43:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
	<1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
	<45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701160841490.2481@beer.tclug.org>

On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, James Lund wrote:
> I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced
> competitively.  Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice.

  You do realize Frontier customers can get Visi for their ISP, right? 
(Ask Nate Straz.)  That's what I'd be doing if I wasn't happy with my 
10m/1m Charter service. ;)

      Jima


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Tue Jan 16 14:09:04 2007
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:09:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
Message-ID: <s5acdc8b.039@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>

>>> On 1/15/2007 at 2:27 PM, "Shawn Fertch" <sfertch at gmail.com> wrote:
> Some people just absolutely hate them and will bitch about anything
> because they don't like Qwest.  Then again, many of these same
people
> are those that will find something to bitch about regardless of what
> it is.

Shawn,

You just mentioned three problems you personally had with Qwest, then 
you give people who have had REAL problems with Qwest a kick in the
pants. I'd say I was hurt and offended, but I'd hate to complain, and 
it would only annoy you. ;-)

Troy





From nate at refried.org  Tue Jan 16 14:29:26 2007
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:29:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0701160841490.2481@beer.tclug.org>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
	<1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
	<45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0701160841490.2481@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <20070116202926.GA6109@refried.org>

On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 08:43:28AM -0600, Jima wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, James Lund wrote:
> > I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced
> > competitively.  Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice.
> 
>   You do realize Frontier customers can get Visi for their ISP, right? 
> (Ask Nate Straz.)  That's what I'd be doing if I wasn't happy with my 
> 10m/1m Charter service. ;)

IMHO, the best way to deal with Frontier is to let the guys at Visi do
it for you.  I run my email and web server from home and it's all thanks
to Visi.  They understand what an ISP is supposed to be.

Nate


From jlund at portrait.com  Tue Jan 16 14:46:49 2007
From: jlund at portrait.com (James Lund)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 14:46:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <20070116202926.GA6109@refried.org>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>	<1400.71.87.50.199.1168902498.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>	<45AC0E27.6050501@portrait.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.64.0701160841490.2481@beer.tclug.org>
	<20070116202926.GA6109@refried.org>
Message-ID: <45AD39B9.6070803@portrait.com>

Thanks Jima and Nate!  I had no idea there was an option.

Nate Straz wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 08:43:28AM -0600, Jima wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, James Lund wrote:
>>> I have a Frontier business DSL line in my house, but it is not priced
>>> competitively.  Living in Apple Valley there isn't much for choice.
>>   You do realize Frontier customers can get Visi for their ISP, right? 
>> (Ask Nate Straz.)  That's what I'd be doing if I wasn't happy with my 
>> 10m/1m Charter service. ;)
> 
> IMHO, the best way to deal with Frontier is to let the guys at Visi do
> it for you.  I run my email and web server from home and it's all thanks
> to Visi.  They understand what an ISP is supposed to be.
> 
> Nate
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From sfertch at gmail.com  Tue Jan 16 18:02:52 2007
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 18:02:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <s5acdc8b.038@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>
References: <s5acdc8b.038@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <67f3084a0701161602k18ec736buf9f584f6e9723422@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/16/07, Troy.A Johnson <troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us> wrote:
> Shawn,
>
> You just mentioned three problems you personally had with Qwest, then
> you give people who have had REAL problems with Qwest a kick in the
> pants. I'd say I was hurt and offended, but I'd hate to complain, and
> it would only annoy you. ;-)
>
> Troy
>


Please explain to me where I cited three problems with Qwest because I
fail to see three.

For the record, here's my e-mail again:
-------
You can get static IP's with Qwest and you don't even need a business
account to do it:

Qwest internet basic   $29.99 to $49.99 a month IIRC for the line
depending on speed
$10.99 for ISP services (no e-mail, website, etc)
$14.99 for a block of 8 static IP's.

I just dropped my static IP's from Qwest which I've had for over 3
years.  Aside from having a buried line go bad during heavy rains a
couple years ago, and some headaches of moving DSL services from one
phoneline to the other, I've never had a problem with Qwest service.

Some people just absolutely hate them and will bitch about anything
because they don't like Qwest.  Then again, many of these same people
are those that will find something to bitch about regardless of what
it is.
-------------

I fail to see where I mention three problems.  I mentioned a line
going bad, which I cannot say is an issue with Qwest because it is a
failure of a component that had been buried for who knows how many
years.  Component failures do not necessarily equate to problems with
the service provider.  A problem would be if they sat on my call for
weeks on end and not responding to the call.

The issue I had with switching DSL service from one line to another
was a minor issue, and from what I've gathered a non-standard request.
 I wanted to drop my second phone line, but my DSL service was
connected to it.  In the process, I wanted to keep my static IP's
which I had had for quite some time to avoid unnecessary work on my
end.  Had I of moved, and had a DHCP assigned address it wouldn't have
been an issue.  Yes, I was more than a little peeved at the time.
But, once I found that it isn't a common request, and they did it as I
requested I was fine with it.

There really was only one problem that I had, as I really cannot say
that the buried phone line was an issue with Qwest because of age,
weather exposure, and it was probably cut from people digging at one
time or another.  All of this was outside their control as far as I'm
concerned.

The reason for dropping my static IP's recently was because I moved my
web services to a hosting service and don't have a need for statics
anymore.

My last statement in my original e-mail was for those who bitch just
because they like to.  If it's a legitimate problem that's fine.  But,
if you're bitching for no reason other than to hear yourself bitch, do
us all a favor and STFU.


-- 
-Shawn

-Nemo me impune lacessit.  Ne Obliviscaris..


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Wed Jan 17 10:12:39 2007
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:12:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
Message-ID: <s5adf6a4.050@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>

Shawn,

>>> On 1/16/2007 at 6:02 PM, "Shawn Fertch" <sfertch at gmail.com> wrote:
> Please explain to me where I cited three problems with Qwest because
I
> fail to see three.

O.K.

1)
> Aside from having a buried line go bad during heavy rains a
> couple years ago, 

2) 3)
> and some headaches of moving DSL services from one
> phoneline to the other

I suppose "some" could mean more than two, but I thought it safe to
minimize the number.

Cheers!

Troy




From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Wed Jan 17 10:36:26 2007
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 10:36:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
Message-ID: <s5adfc39.010@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>

TCLUG OT Readers:

If you think I am being a jerk, I do apologize, but I really do 
want to hear complaints about ISPs (yes, including Qwest) in 
these little OT email conversations we have on the half year.
Performance can change over time, and I want to know who to 
recommend to those who ask. I really hope no one will "STFU"
because someone else doesn't want to hear about it. 

Right now I give Qwest a "OK" rating, despite my own negative 
experiences with them, because they seem to do alright by 
many of their customers. I do prefer places like Speakeasy and 
IP House because they consistently emphasize customer service, 
and that makes a big difference even when they can't fix things 
for you. 

Thanks,

Troy




From auditodd at comcast.net  Wed Jan 17 13:25:23 2007
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 19:25:23 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
Message-ID: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>

Hey all,

My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to vendors and them them return.

I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes with a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average UPS/FedEx flunky. 

Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an Otterbox cases.

Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated.

--
==========
Todd Young


From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com  Wed Jan 17 14:46:21 2007
From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:46:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20070117204621.GA8729@mail.el-swifto.com>

On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 07:25:23PM +0000, auditodd at comcast.net wrote:
> My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to
> vendors and them them return.

Why not just burn to CD/DVD?  Media are cheap and sturdy.

-- 
trammell at el-swifto.com  9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58  FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5
Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG)      Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota


From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Wed Jan 17 14:59:49 2007
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:59:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2E9@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>


I assume it's too much data to fit on a "thumb drive"?  We've used them
in the past with up to 1 Gbyte.  Relatively cheap, easy to ship, worked
great.

Larry Pint
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of auditodd at comcast.net
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 1:25 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to
> vendors and them them return.
> 
> I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes
with
> a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average
UPS/FedEx
> flunky.
> 
> Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an
> Otterbox cases.
> 
> Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated.
> 
> --
> ==========
> Todd Young
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jan 17 15:11:28 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:11:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <20070117204621.GA8729@mail.el-swifto.com>
References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
	<20070117204621.GA8729@mail.el-swifto.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701171510270.27244@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, John J. Trammell wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 17, 2007 at 07:25:23PM +0000, auditodd at comcast.net wrote:
>> My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to
>> vendors and them them return.
>
> Why not just burn to CD/DVD?  Media are cheap and sturdy.


If they have 500 GB of data, it will fill more than 100 DVDs.  If the 
client needs to make some changes to the data and return it, it will be a 
huge effort.  The USB drive would be much better for such uses.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jan 17 15:10:09 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:10:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2E9@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
References: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2E9@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701171509300.27244@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007, Larry R. Pint wrote:

> I assume it's too much data to fit on a "thumb drive"?  We've used them 
> in the past with up to 1 Gbyte.  Relatively cheap, easy to ship, worked 
> great.


A DVD holds more and costs much less.

Mike


From joey.rockhold at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 15:19:56 2007
From: joey.rockhold at gmail.com (Joey Rockhold)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:19:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com>

Would it work to use a higher-capacity tape drive and mail a box of tapes
back and forth?

- Joey

On 1/17/07, auditodd at comcast.net <auditodd at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to
> vendors and them them return.
>
> I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes with
> a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average UPS/FedEx
> flunky.
>
> Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an
> Otterbox cases.
>
> Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated.
>
> --
> ==========
> Todd Young
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Wed Jan 17 16:34:53 2007
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:34:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Open Document Format in Minnesota?
Message-ID: <s5ae503d.071@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>

I thought this might be on topic for TCLUG because it might
possibly put Linux in better standing as a desktop client:

http://ros.leg.mn/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0176.0.html&session=ls85





From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Wed Jan 17 16:58:56 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 16:58:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701172258.l0HMwut22000@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Equipment Sale

All the computers listed are solid machines. My wife wants me to reduce my "inventory".

HP Omnibook XE4400S
1.8GHz 
1GB RAM (2x512 Corsair)
20GB hard drive
DVD-ROM and Floppy built in
Linksys Wi-Fi PCMCIA 802.11b/g
Windows XP Pro Product Key
Eddie Bauer laptop bag
$500 - OBO
====
HP Omnibook 6000
600MHz
256MB of RAM
20GB hard drive
DVD-ROM and Floppy modules
Docking station with CD-R and NIC (uses standard power cord)
Laptop bag
Win98 Product Key
$170 - OBO
====
HP Omnibook XE3-GC
800MHz
256MB of RAM
20GB hard drive
DVD-ROM and floppy
Port replicator w/power supply
Laptop bag
Win98 Product Key
$150 - OBO
====
Intergraph GL2
Dual P2-400MHz
512MB of ECC RAM
Sony CD-R
$50 - OBO
====
Zip Drives and Discs
3-250MB drives
2-100MB drives
1-250MB disc
19-100MB discs
$40 - OBO
====
Baystack 24 port managed switch
$20 - OBO
====
Palm 3e w/cradle
$10 - OBO
====
IBM 300GL (2 of these)
Type 6282
Pentium-233MHz
128MB of RAM
1GB hard drive
CDROM & Floppy
2-USB1 ports
2-10/100 NICs
Fully functional, perfect for a firewall!
$10 each - OBO

====
FREE!
- HP ScanJet 5100C
- HP ScanJet 4P
- Generic Pentium-200MHz PC

Seller Email address: auditodd at comcast dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From auditodd at comcast.net  Wed Jan 17 17:09:07 2007
From: auditodd at comcast.net (Todd Young)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:09:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
	<101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45AEAC93.6080307@comcast.net>

Joey Rockhold wrote:
> Would it work to use a higher-capacity tape drive and mail a box of 
> tapes back and forth?
>  
> - Joey
>  
> On 1/17/07, *auditodd at comcast.net <mailto:auditodd at comcast.net>* 
> <auditodd at comcast.net <mailto:auditodd at comcast.net>> wrote:
> 
>     Hey all,
> 
>     My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to
>     vendors and them them return.
> 
>     I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that
>     comes with a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the
>     average UPS/FedEx flunky.
> 
>     Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an
>     Otterbox cases.
> 
>     Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated.
> 
>     --
>     ==========
>     Todd Young

Tape drive would work, but then you have to worry about whether the 
receiving party has the right format. Not to mention that getting data 
copied to a tape would be quite the "fun" experience.

OtterBox didn't have anything that would fit an external USB drive, but 
I did find a company called S3 that has similar products that would 
work. That combined with a generic enclosure and Western Digital drives 
will probably be our resolution. Western Digital has a great head park 
feature that if the drive loses power it uses energy from the spindle to 
park the heads.

-- 
Todd Young


From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com  Wed Jan 17 18:35:41 2007
From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John T. Hoffoss)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:35:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Job - Information Security Specialist
Message-ID: <914f813c0701171635u65f24840yc4091b8c60e50431@mail.gmail.com>

LarsonAllen currently has a job position open. Please email
rromes at larsonallen.com with your resume and contact information to
apply.

-John



Job Description ? Information Security Specialist Intern

LarsonAllen is currently looking for an Information Security
Specialist Intern to join the Information Security Services Group
(ISSG) in our Minneapolis office.  The Information Security Specialist
will provide technical security consulting to clients, as well as
develop and maintain the ISSG network infrastructure.  The majority of
the work consists of testing remote and local networks for security
vulnerabilities.  This person performs as a significant member of the
ISSG Team to provide quality customer service.

* Perform network security assessments.
* Project Team Participation Responsibilities
* Application Software Selection Responsibilities
* Application Software Implementation Responsibilities
* Application Software Support Responsibilities

*** This opportunity will lead to a full-time position for the right person. ***

For consideration we require:
B.S. or an associate degree from a two-year college focused on
IT/IS/MIS or computer science
A GPA of 3.0 or above in your major, and a copy of your transcript.
A minimum of 6 months experience in a support or development role,
related to application development, desktop, server, or network
infrastructure

Preference will be given to applicants with experience in some or all
of the following:
Experience with Cisco IOS software, Cisco hardware, and/or similar
experience in network infrastructure hardware and software
Experience with Linux operating systems
Experience with Microsoft Windows operating systems, servers, and networking
Programming and/or Web application development

From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Jan 18 02:04:30 2007
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 02:04:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2E9@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEGNCGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Larry R. Pint
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:00 PM
>
>
> I assume it's too much data to fit on a "thumb drive"?  We've
> used them
> in the past with up to 1 Gbyte.  Relatively cheap, easy to
> ship, worked
> great.
>
> Larry Pint


I've seen sizes up to 8gb offered.  Also, I got a USB adapter for SD
digital camera cards for $.99 plus S&H off ebay.  The adapter claims to
be unlimited except by the card, so over 4gb isn't hard to do.  Rotating
things are much more vulnerable in shipping, but can have much larger
capacities.

Chuck




From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Thu Jan 18 07:45:52 2007
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 07:45:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
In-Reply-To: <45AEAC93.6080307@comcast.net>
References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>	<101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com>
	<45AEAC93.6080307@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <45AF7A10.3080308@gmail.com>


> work. That combined with a generic enclosure and Western Digital drives 
> will probably be our resolution. Western Digital has a great head park 
> feature that if the drive loses power it uses energy from the spindle to 
> park the heads.
> 

Western Digital also has a great feature of planned obsolescence.  That 
is, after they turn 1.5 (+/- .5) years old, they just stop working one 
day.  At least that has been my experience, with about 6 different 
Western Digital drives in the last couple of years.  The 250 GB capacity 
is the worst of them all, but I've had a few other capacity drives fail 
as well.  Its also convenient for them that their warranty was only 1 
year in the era when they built all of those junk drives.  I think that 
the warranty is longer now - not that that helps you get your data back 
when the thing fails.

If you are mailing things back and forth, I would try to stick to camera 
  cards or USB sticks, if their capacity is great enough.

Dan

-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Thu Jan 18 11:14:30 2007
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 11:14:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2EB@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

I would like to mount a shared removable drive in a Windows XP Pro
computer to make it accessible in Unixware 7.1.1.  I have studied the
mount command, searched google and have not found out how to do this.
Mention was made of VisionFS and samba.  I don't think VisionFS is
installed on the Unixware system.  I can get samba to share to Unixware
directory so it is accessible from Windows machines, but I have not
figured out how to do the other way around.  I've done this from our RH
Linux machine, but can't figure it out under Unixware.  Can anybody
offer some pointers to how this can be done?

 

Thanks,

 

Larry Pint

 

 

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From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Thu Jan 18 12:25:06 2007
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:25:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
Message-ID: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>

A little off-topic, this is more a h/w issue.  

I have a desktop PC with an ABIT board - KW7 to be specific. I had a
Seagate ST380013AS (80GB) running on SATA fine for about 2 years then
it started going bad.  I was running Winders so I did the old
check/repair disk, happened again so I figured I'd try Kubuntu since
I felt more comfortable troubleshooting hardware issues using
Linux. Problems later on - would only mount the / file system read
only. Ran tune2fs to continue on errors and e2fsck badblock checks -
found problems, still wouldn't boot out of read only.  I bought two
Western Digital WD1600JS (160GB) drives hoping to setup a RAID, but
now I can't even get one of the drives recognized by the BIOS.  In
addition now I can't plug in my failing drive and have it recognized
by the BIOS.

I can't imagine that I somehow trashed all three drives with static,
I'm good about handling drives, done this many times.

Nothing I can do anymore will get any one of the 3 SATA drives I have
recognized.  I thought maybe I fudged a BIOS setting to I cleared
CMOS and started over, no luck.  Is it possible the onboard SATA
controller is toast? Am I using this mobo at risk if so?  I was
thinking of trying a PCI SATA controller.  Unfortunately I don't have
another system with SATA to test...

Any thoughts?

On this same box I noticed a bad memory address using memtest86+ so I
pulled that stick.  But that was before all these problems.  If
memtest86 reports a single address failure is the stick pretty much
useless?  Or can it be used (at risk)?

Thanks,

Josh



From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Thu Jan 18 12:42:07 2007
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:42:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>

Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the
new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps -
doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless
when I put the new ones on it hosed it?

Josh

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 12:25:06 -0600 Josh Trutwin
<josh at trutwins.homeip.net> wrote:

> A little off-topic, this is more a h/w issue.  
> 
> I have a desktop PC with an ABIT board - KW7 to be specific. I had a
> Seagate ST380013AS (80GB) running on SATA fine for about 2 years
> then it started going bad.  I was running Winders so I did the old
> check/repair disk, happened again so I figured I'd try Kubuntu since
> I felt more comfortable troubleshooting hardware issues using
> Linux. Problems later on - would only mount the / file system read
> only. Ran tune2fs to continue on errors and e2fsck badblock checks -
> found problems, still wouldn't boot out of read only.  I bought two
> Western Digital WD1600JS (160GB) drives hoping to setup a RAID, but
> now I can't even get one of the drives recognized by the BIOS.  In
> addition now I can't plug in my failing drive and have it recognized
> by the BIOS.
> 
> I can't imagine that I somehow trashed all three drives with static,
> I'm good about handling drives, done this many times.
> 
> Nothing I can do anymore will get any one of the 3 SATA drives I
> have recognized.  I thought maybe I fudged a BIOS setting to I
> cleared CMOS and started over, no luck.  Is it possible the onboard
> SATA controller is toast? Am I using this mobo at risk if so?  I was
> thinking of trying a PCI SATA controller.  Unfortunately I don't
> have another system with SATA to test...
> 
> Any thoughts?
> 
> On this same box I noticed a bad memory address using memtest86+ so
> I pulled that stick.  But that was before all these problems.  If
> memtest86 reports a single address failure is the stick pretty much
> useless?  Or can it be used (at risk)?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Josh
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Jan 18 13:02:47 2007
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:02:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>

On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote:
> Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the
> new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps -
> doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless
> when I put the new ones on it hosed it?

The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the
controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground.

Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25;  this might be an
easy way to test the drives.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Thu Jan 18 13:20:26 2007
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:20:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 13:02:47 -0600
florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote:
> > Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that
> > the new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps
> > - doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive
> > unless when I put the new ones on it hosed it?
> 
> The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the
> controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground.

I had hoped as much.  I would expect backwards compatibility, but
good to know forward should work too.

> Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25;  this might be an
> easy way to test the drives.

I ordered one on-sale from mwave - wanted a 4-channel model at 3gbps -
should arrive tomorrow so hopefully I can see if that's the issue or
not.

I am starting to miss my old SCSI system.

Josh


From chewie at wookimus.net  Thu Jan 18 14:08:16 2007
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:08:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net> 
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>
	<20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <20070118200816.990B9230B@skuld.wookimus.net>

Josh, you've tried to do something like this?

	# mount -o remount,rw /

Right?
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Thu Jan 18 15:19:12 2007
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 15:19:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118200816.990B9230B@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>
	<20070118132026.1564bc7d.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118200816.990B9230B@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <20070118151912.733a777a.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 14:08:16 -0600
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net> wrote:

> Josh, you've tried to do something like this?
> 
> 	# mount -o remount,rw /
> 
> Right?

Yeah, back when I was actually able to mount the drive I did.  I
booted into a live CD and used tune2fs -c continue (I think) to
turn off the read-only on error and then mounted the drive rw on /mnt
and removed the errors=ro from /mnt/etc/fstab but every reboot was the
same thing - mounted read only.  

But that was back when I could have the system even recognize the
sucker, which is no longer the case.

Thanks,

Josh


From dean at ripperd.com  Thu Jan 18 17:48:37 2007
From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:48:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>	<20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <45B00755.4010608@ripperd.com>

Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote:
>   
>> Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the
>> new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps -
>> doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless
>> when I put the new ones on it hosed it?
>>     
>
> The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the
> controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground.
>
> Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25;  this might be an
> easy way to test the drives.
>
> florin
>   
Typically this is true, however there are a few SATA-1 controllers which 
are known to not auto-negotate properly.  One that comes to mind is the 
VIA 8237.

-Dean


From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Thu Jan 18 18:25:56 2007
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:25:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <45B00755.4010608@ripperd.com>
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net> <45B00755.4010608@ripperd.com>
Message-ID: <20070118182556.f43d3a2a.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 17:48:37 -0600
Dean <dean at ripperd.com> wrote:

> > The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the
> > controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common
> > ground.
> >
> > Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25;  this might be an
> > easy way to test the drives.
> >
> > florin
> >   
> Typically this is true, however there are a few SATA-1 controllers
> which are known to not auto-negotate properly.  One that comes to
> mind is the VIA 8237.

Which happens to be what this ABIT board has for SATA.  I have a PCI
controller on the way.  Still not sure why my other drive isn't being
recognized.

Josh


From wdtj at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 18 20:30:14 2007
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 18:30:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118190247.GS6053@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <20070119023014.33792.qmail@web53801.mail.yahoo.com>

There is a known problem with some older (SATA 1.5) controllers and the newer (SATA 3) WD spread sprectrum drives.  You have to strap the HD to disable the spread spectrum in order for the drives to be seen by the BIOS.  Sounds a lot like what you were having.  Not sure why the old drives no longer work.

http://wdc.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wdc.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1337&p_created=1112379341&p_sid=UPAiJ1si&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTEmcF9wcm9kcz0yMDMmcF9jYXRzPTE4MyZwX3B2PTEuMjAzJnBfY3Y9MS4xODMmcF9zZWFyY2hfdHlwZT1hbnN3ZXJzLnNlYXJjaF9mbmwmcF9wYWdlPTE*&p_li=&p_topview=1

Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote: On Thu, Jan 18, 2007 at 12:42:07PM -0600, Josh Trutwin wrote:
> Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the
> new drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps -
> doesn't explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless
> when I put the new ones on it hosed it?

The SATA 1, 1.5 and 2 are backwards and forwards compatible: the
controller and drives should be able to negotiate the common ground.

Microcenter has PCI SATA controllers for $20-25;  this might be an
easy way to test the drives.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



--- 
Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis

 	 
---------------------------------
Looking for earth-friendly autos? 
 Browse Top Cars by "Green Rating" at Yahoo! Autos' Green Center.  
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From tclug at natecarlson.com  Thu Jan 18 23:17:28 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:17:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] SATA problems
In-Reply-To: <20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
References: <20070118122506.8a8bfeea.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
	<20070118124207.1e1623b6.josh@trutwins.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701182317150.13478@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Josh Trutwin wrote:
> Just a quick followup - I'm guessing part of my problem is that the new 
> drives are 3 Gbps and my mobo controller is only 1.5 Gbps - doesn't 
> explain why I cannot connect the old 1.5 Gbps drive unless when I put 
> the new ones on it hosed it?

Check to see if the drives have a compatibility jumper for 1.5gbps.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Fri Jan 19 11:05:02 2007
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:05:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1
References: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2EB@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <cone.1169226302.342039.7932.1001@home>

Larry R. Pint writes:

> ? HTML content follows ?
> 
> I would like to mount a shared removable drive in a Windows XP Pro 
> computer to make it accessible in Unixware 7.1.1.? I have studied the 
> mount command, searched google and have not found out how to do this.? 
> Mention was made of VisionFS and samba.? I don't think VisionFS is 
> installed on the Unixware system.? I can get samba to share to Unixware 
> directory so it is accessible from Windows machines, but I have not 
> figured out how to do the other way around.? I've done this from our RH 
> Linux machine, but can't figure it out under Unixware.? Can anybody offer 
> some pointers to how this can be done?

under linux it would be:
mount -t smbfs -o username=<user> //server/share /mountpoint

of course this is for linux, the same did not work under MacOS, the syntax 
was not quite right and i suspect that that would be the case as well under 
UnixWare.

do a locate for smbfs and see if there is a manpage specific for it.


From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Fri Jan 19 11:56:44 2007
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 11:56:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1
In-Reply-To: <cone.1169226302.342039.7932.1001@home>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2F7@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

I've searched for "mountsmb", "smbmount", "smbfs" and several other logical words with no luck.  I've searched using "find -name" (the system doesn't have "locate" either) and in "man".  I'm convinced that SCO intentionally does not allow you (or at least make it easy) to access a drive on a Windows computer.  I can't imagine that this would have anything to do with the $$$'s that Micro$oft invested in SCO.

Larry
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of Munir Nassar
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:05 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1
> 
> Larry R. Pint writes:
> 
> > ? HTML content follows ?
> >
> > I would like to mount a shared removable drive in a Windows XP Pro
> > computer to make it accessible in Unixware 7.1.1.? I have studied the
> > mount command, searched google and have not found out how to do this.
> > Mention was made of VisionFS and samba.? I don't think VisionFS is
> > installed on the Unixware system.? I can get samba to share to Unixware
> > directory so it is accessible from Windows machines, but I have not
> > figured out how to do the other way around.? I've done this from our RH
> > Linux machine, but can't figure it out under Unixware.? Can anybody
> offer
> > some pointers to how this can be done?
> 
> under linux it would be:
> mount -t smbfs -o username=<user> //server/share /mountpoint
> 
> of course this is for linux, the same did not work under MacOS, the syntax
> was not quite right and i suspect that that would be the case as well
> under
> UnixWare.
> 
> do a locate for smbfs and see if there is a manpage specific for it.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From sac at cheesecake.org  Fri Jan 19 12:20:19 2007
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 12:20:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1
In-Reply-To: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2F7@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
References: <cone.1169226302.342039.7932.1001@home>
	<AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2F7@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <20070119182019.GA6182@cheesecake.org>

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 at 11.56.44 -0600, Larry R. Pint wrote:
> I'm convinced that SCO intentionally does not allow you (or at least
> make it easy) to access a drive on a Windows computer.  I can't imagine
> that this would have anything to do with the $$$'s that Micro$oft
> invested in SCO.

It couldn't possibly be because UnixWare sucks, of course.  In other news,
I'm convinced that Linux intentionally does not allow one (or at least
make it easy) to write to NTFS volumes.  I can't imagine that this would
have anything to do with the salary that OSDL pay Linus.

Also, I'd have used smbclient from the beginning and wouldn't have even
bothered googling to see if smbmount supports UnixWare because, well,
it's UnixWare and it sucks.

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Jan 19 13:21:29 2007
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:21:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Mount windows share in Unixware 7.1.1
In-Reply-To: <20070119182019.GA6182@cheesecake.org>
References: <cone.1169226302.342039.7932.1001@home>
	<AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA637F2F7@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
	<20070119182019.GA6182@cheesecake.org>
Message-ID: <20070119192129.GA6053@iucha.net>

On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 12:20:19PM -0600, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 at 11.56.44 -0600, Larry R. Pint wrote:
> > I'm convinced that SCO intentionally does not allow you (or at least
> > make it easy) to access a drive on a Windows computer.  I can't imagine
> > that this would have anything to do with the $$$'s that Micro$oft
> > invested in SCO.
> 
> It couldn't possibly be because UnixWare sucks, of course.  In other news,
> I'm convinced that Linux intentionally does not allow one (or at least
> make it easy) to write to NTFS volumes.  I can't imagine that this would
> have anything to do with the salary that OSDL pay Linus.

Huh?  The code is halfway there: enable CONFIG_NTFS_RW and trash your
partitions at will.  Linus is not responsible for the [lack of]
progress on implementing the functionality, the NTFS maintainer is
Anton Altaparmakov.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Fri Jan 19 16:36:57 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 16:36:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701192236.l0JMavh29745@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Dell 1650

Dual 1.3Ghz 2GB Ram 3 73GB 10k or 3 36GB 15k drives (your choice) Dual power supplies.

$500obo

Justin at otnix.com

Seller Email address: justin at 90tq dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From russianhippie666 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 19:58:37 2007
From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 19:58:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help
Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was
thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start,
thanks.
Mikhail
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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Jan 19 20:57:35 2007
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 20:57:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help
In-Reply-To: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net>

On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 07:58:37PM -0600, Mikhail Skobov wrote:
> Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was
> thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start,
> thanks.

Do you know any other programming languages?  Why do you want to learn
C++ for?  If you are a beginner, you might want to start with
something more gentle, like Python.

Back in the day, Stanley Lippman's C++ Primer was a good start.
Bjarne Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" 3rd edition is also
fairly good.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From russianhippie666 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 21:31:35 2007
From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 21:31:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help
In-Reply-To: <20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net>
References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net>
Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701191931u36948bc0w2c38bbfcb27aeea6@mail.gmail.com>

i already have learned python and this is mostly a hobby but i also use it
in high school we had an intro to computer science class and then there's
c++ and java classes that i will be taking

On 1/19/07, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 07:58:37PM -0600, Mikhail Skobov wrote:
> > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was
> > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to
> start,
> > thanks.
>
> Do you know any other programming languages?  Why do you want to learn
> C++ for?  If you are a beginner, you might want to start with
> something more gentle, like Python.
>
> Back in the day, Stanley Lippman's C++ Primer was a good start.
> Bjarne Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" 3rd edition is also
> fairly good.
>
> florin
>
> --
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
>      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
>
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFFsYUfND0rFCN2b1sRAgdJAJ4ivMG7XrQ9POAY6pTqcvpiusbCBQCePvmw
> UhuK1Xzoa0ZKQAICqUhPm8Y=
> =BTyR
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Fri Jan 19 22:29:54 2007
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 22:29:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help
In-Reply-To: <6f6d54f70701191931u36948bc0w2c38bbfcb27aeea6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>
	<20070120025735.GC6053@iucha.net>
	<6f6d54f70701191931u36948bc0w2c38bbfcb27aeea6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570701192029p6fc5afdaj9fc009b2fbe28f63@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov <russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote:
> i already have learned python and this is mostly a hobby but i also use it
> in high school we had an intro to computer science class and then there's
> c++ and java classes that i will be taking
>
>
> On 1/19/07, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2007 at 07:58:37PM -0600, Mikhail Skobov wrote:
> > > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was
> > > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to
> start,
> > > thanks.
> >
> > Do you know any other programming languages?  Why do you want to learn
> > C++ for?  If you are a beginner, you might want to start with
> > something more gentle, like Python.
> >
> > Back in the day, Stanley Lippman's C++ Primer was a good start.
> > Bjarne Stroustrup's "The C++ Programming Language" 3rd edition is also
> > fairly good.

I learned C++ on my own from Ivor Horton's Beginning C++.  I can't
really say that it was a great book, but I guess it was good enough to
give me a start.  There are probably much probably better ones.
But I didn't really learn C++ until i started working on open-source
projects.  So if you really want to learn I'd highly recommend getting
involved with a project of some sort after you pick up the basics.

Also, there's a free C++ book available online here:
http://www.mindview.net/Books/TICPP/ThinkingInCPP2e.html
I can't vouch for its quality, as I've never read it, but it might be
worth checking out.
-- 
jonner


From leif.t.johnson at gmail.com  Sat Jan 20 13:19:27 2007
From: leif.t.johnson at gmail.com (Leif Johnson)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 13:19:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help
In-Reply-To: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dbe795460701201119r22813439s2c9186afed69f9b4@mail.gmail.com>

I got started in with "C++ How to Program" by Deitel & Deitel.  It's a
pretty good college-level getting started with C++ kinda book.  I guess it
depends on what style of book you are looking for.

leif

On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov <russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was
> thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start,
> thanks.
> Mikhail
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From russianhippie666 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 20 14:43:55 2007
From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2007 14:43:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help
In-Reply-To: <dbe795460701201119r22813439s2c9186afed69f9b4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6f6d54f70701191758p787062edj9df1c62d24dc0348@mail.gmail.com>
	<dbe795460701201119r22813439s2c9186afed69f9b4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701201243w397d6e1blb9da6139a2a2ef6c@mail.gmail.com>

i like the kind of book where you can use the examples to learn as well as
the text because its easier for me that way

On 1/20/07, Leif Johnson <leif.t.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I got started in with "C++ How to Program" by Deitel & Deitel.  It's a
> pretty good college-level getting started with C++ kinda book.  I guess it
> depends on what style of book you are looking for.
>
> leif
>
> On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov <russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was
> > thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start,
> > thanks.
> > Mikhail
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
> >
>
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From rclark at lakesplus.com  Mon Jan 22 09:44:01 2007
From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:44:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
Message-ID: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>

I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a
bit annoying.

System:  FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks
with yum.

I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after
a fashion.  I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving
around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it
across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of
the windows open on the screen.  It is like the mouse button feature is
gone. 

I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X,
relog in and then everything is fine.

Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Thanks in advance.

Randy





From rclark at lakesplus.com  Mon Jan 22 09:45:07 2007
From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:45:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
Message-ID: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware?  Like an x86
type system?  Good? Bad? Indifferent?  Thoughts or suggestions welcome.

Randy





From chewie at wookimus.net  Mon Jan 22 09:56:24 2007
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:56:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain> 
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>

Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com>  wrote:
> Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware?  Like an
> x86 type system?  Good? Bad? Indifferent?  Thoughts or suggestions
> welcome.

My co-worker, a rabid Solaris fan, runs Solaris 10 on his workstation.
I'm rather indifferent. ;-)

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From srcfoo at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 09:59:33 2007
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 09:59:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <579c6fd30701220759s2613cfc1k6ceb7530b694fb13@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com> wrote:
> I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a
> bit annoying.
>
> System:  FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks
> with yum.
>
> I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after
> a fashion.  I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving
> around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it
> across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of
> the windows open on the screen.  It is like the mouse button feature is
> gone.
>
> I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X,
> relog in and then everything is fine.
>
> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>
> Randy

Sorry if this is painfully obvious, but have you tried a different mouse?

Try a different kind of mouse. i.e. switch between usb and ps/2

If the mouse is wireless, switch to a wired mouse.

Most of these problems in my experience are caused by bad hardware and
not the software.


From jkjones at tcq.net  Mon Jan 22 10:00:33 2007
From: jkjones at tcq.net (Kraig Jones)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:00:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <45B4DFA1.7010802@tcq.net>

Randy Clarksean wrote:
> I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after
> a fashion.  I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving
> around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it
> across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of
> the windows open on the screen.  It is like the mouse button feature is
> gone. 
>
> I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X,
> relog in and then everything is fine.
>
> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>
> Randy
>
>   
Hardware?  You've tried another mouse?

Actually, I think I may have seen this with KDE/Kubuntu.  Mouse hangs up 
and won't move or click.  But it's happened so rarely that I never had 
the chance to look into it further.

Kraig


From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 10:25:06 2007
From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (Benjamin Gramlich)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 10:25:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
In-Reply-To: <45B4DFA1.7010802@tcq.net>
References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<45B4DFA1.7010802@tcq.net>
Message-ID: <D238C7B8-A8F7-495F-9679-51B230F5BE9D@gmail.com>

I had this problem with Ubuntu. Something with the newer kernel and  
the bios. Once I updated the bios everything worked fine. Try  
reverting to an older kernel for now unless you can find updated bios.

Benjamin


From jack at jacku.com  Mon Jan 22 10:44:43 2007
From: jack at jacku.com (jack at jacku.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 08:44:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <13044.70.59.124.241.1169484283.squirrel@mail.highspeedrails.com>

> I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a
> bit annoying.
>
> System:  FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks
> with yum.
>
> I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after
> a fashion.  I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving
> around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it
> across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of
> the windows open on the screen.  It is like the mouse button feature is
> gone.
>
> I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X,
> relog in and then everything is fine.
>
> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>
> Randy
>
>
>

I used to see this kind of thing happen with certain mice, certain
distributions and GPM (General Purpose Mouse control for console apps). If
 gpm is running it can screw up X. That said I haven't seen this anytime
recently and I thought the problem was corrected. Also do you use a KVM
switch? Those are known to have issues with mouse lockup or disappearance
but mostly after switching between systems. I have one that I can get to
reset if I unplug the mouse and plug it back in.

My $0.02,

Jack



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 11:12:57 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:12:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com>  wrote:
>
>> Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware?  Like an x86 
>> type system?  Good? Bad? Indifferent?  Thoughts or suggestions welcome.
>
> My co-worker, a rabid Solaris fan, runs Solaris 10 on his workstation. 
> I'm rather indifferent. ;-)


I'm not using it on PC.  I have been running it on a SPARC machine for 
more than a decade and I also am using Linux on a number of different 
systems.  Solaris is a very solid OS -- I have not rebooted my Solaris 8 
machine in 5 years except when there was a power failure.  Still, I don't 
like Solaris very much.  The reason is that Linux has been really taking 
over in computing and everything is ready to compile and run under Linux. 
Linux uses GNU tools, which are much better than Solaris's tools. 
Because of this, I wouldn't bother with Solaris.  The only reason I still 
use it at all is because I have the machine running, doing web, email, 
etc., and it's a pain to move everything to a different machine. 
Meanwhile, I do all my number crunching work and most other unixy stuff on 
Linux boxes.

On the other hand, if you just want to study Solaris and learn about it, 
maybe for professional reasons, why not?  It's very widely used.

Mike


From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Mon Jan 22 11:12:36 2007
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:12:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
In-Reply-To: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570701220912l5b1b939cg49dc3ffdfdaaccec@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com> wrote:
> I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a
> bit annoying.
>
> System:  FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks
> with yum.
>
> I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after
> a fashion.  I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving
> around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it
> across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of
> the windows open on the screen.  It is like the mouse button feature is
> gone.
>
> I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X,
> relog in and then everything is fine.
>
> Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
>
> Randy

I think I've seen something very similar to this on my system, but I'm
not sure if it's the same issue.  It doesn't happen very often, but
it's very annoying when it does.  I notice it most often on the web
browser.  When I click on links, it acts as if it has clicked them
(i.e. it gets one of those dashed outlines that shows that it has the
focus), but clicking the link doesn't actually load the specified URL.
 Other click-related stuff doesn't work correctly either.  It seems
like something has blocked a specific mouse-click event or signal from
firing.  The workaround I usually use is to switch to a text console
(e.g. ctrl+alt+F1) and then back to X (ctrl+alt+F7), and then the
mouse will work normally again.  You might try that next time it
happens to you...  Unfortunately I haven't investigated it enough to
find a proper solution.
-- 
jonner


From robbyt at robbyt.net  Mon Jan 22 12:02:11 2007
From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:02:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570701220912l5b1b939cg49dc3ffdfdaaccec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<ee2fcb570701220912l5b1b939cg49dc3ffdfdaaccec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f663090701221002y4793ec16rd4824e42c062709c@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Jonathon Jongsma <jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com> wrote:
> > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a
> > bit annoying.
> >
> > System:  FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks
> > with yum.
> >
> > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after
> > a fashion.  I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving
> > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it
> > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of
> > the windows open on the screen.  It is like the mouse button feature is
> > gone.
> >
> > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X,
> > relog in and then everything is fine.
> >
> > Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Randy
>

honestly this sounds to me like a video driver issue. Read up on your
driver's options, such as swcursor and if you're using a closed-driver, try
the open alternative.
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 12:00:19 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:00:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Open source calendaring
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221157090.10587@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

Is anyone using this?:

http://www.opengroupware.org/en/applications/index.html

We've been using Meeting Maker and I use a Palm device, so I would really 
like to switch to an open source solution.

Mike


From chewie at wookimus.net  Mon Jan 22 12:04:33 2007
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:04:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re:  Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>

Now that I work over at Onvoy, I get plenty of exposure to Solaris.
In fact, at the U, I had to manage an aging E4500 running Solaris 2.6.
Recent experience with Solaris 10 on SPARC hardware has shown me that
it's not quite polished.  We continue to have race conditions with
sendmail on Solaris 10 while under botnet attack from Poland.  So much
so, that we have to remove the machine from our mail server lineup
between the hours of 00:00 and 03:30.  That does not give me much
confidence in Solaris 10, honestly.  Solaris 9 hums along happily
enough.

> The reason is that Linux has been really taking over in computing
> and everything is ready to compile and run under Linux.  Linux uses
> GNU tools, which are much better than Solaris's tools.  Because of
> this, I wouldn't bother with Solaris.

"Better" is a very subjective opinion.  I like GNU tools.  I'm
familiar with GNU tools.  I can hack on GNU tools and not worry about
Copyright infringement.  Therefore, I think GNU tools are better.
Feature-wise, GNU tools mature quickly.  However, GNU tools may not
target hardware-specific management and optimizations that you gain
with vendor tools.

One of the goals with GNU tools is to be cross-platform.  Solaris is
one of the most prominent platforms on which GNU tools run.  If you go
to http://www.sunfreeware.com, you will not many of the more popular
GPL'ed software available there.

So, I disagree that Linux is taking off JUST because of pre-compiled
GNU tools.  I believe Linux is taking off for a number of reasons:

   * The Price is Right -- Can't beat free
   * Advanced packaging tools (Sun's is a bit behind the curve on this
     one.)
   * Public, central, network-accessible package archives (Sun's
     aren't exactly public.)
   * Convenient search tools for querying the plethora of packages

The more I support Solaris, the less I dislike it.  The company seems
to take a very Debian-like approach when providing patches for
installed, stable software rather than forcing newer versions of the
software to be installed.  They could use some help in determining
exactly when reboots are necessary, for example. (i.e. Their
installation/patching scripts could be a bit more intelligent.)

No, I think one of the reasons Solaris isn't as popular amongst
desktop consumers is because until recently, they didn't have an x86
product.  Even so, they're likely to get more Solaris admins than
general consumers.  They weren't (aren't) popular amongst smaller
businesses or smaller-budget groups because the hardware was (is)
quite expensive to run.  Their support of x86 platform and release of
OpenSolaris might change some of that.

I think it's too hard to predict, really.  Linux has a lot of
momentum, and companies like Solaris are finally starting to react
appropriately.  We shall see...

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From timo at bolverk.net  Mon Jan 22 12:01:11 2007
From: timo at bolverk.net (Tim Oudin)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:01:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <21620273.41169488871449.JavaMail.root@zimbra>

----- Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com> wrote:
> Anyone out there running Solaris 10 on PC type hardware?  Like an x86
> type system?  Good? Bad? Indifferent?  Thoughts or suggestions
> welcome.

I've run both a SPARC and x86 virtual machine as home.  Once I got past the headache of getting networking functional on the vm I had no unpleasant experiences x86 related.

-- 
timo



From robbyt at robbyt.net  Mon Jan 22 12:13:40 2007
From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:13:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Open source calendaring
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221157090.10587@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221157090.10587@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1f663090701221013p27e32ea5nc419d8e94a72c9b8@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/22/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> Is anyone using this?:
>
> http://www.opengroupware.org/en/applications/index.html
>
> We've been using Meeting Maker and I use a Palm device, so I would really
> like to switch to an open source solution.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

we tried using opengroupware/egroupware for a couple things here and found
it to be quite crusty..

I recommend: http://sourceforge.net/projects/webcalendar/
or just setup zimbra OSS
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From tj at kewlness.net  Mon Jan 22 12:16:43 2007
From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:16:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.294.1169486208.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.294.1169486208.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net>


Just my 2 cents. 

I've used Solaris, and while there isn't anything wrong with it, I find
the lack of decent GNU developer tools out of the box to be a definate
annoyance. 

As for Solaris not being rebooted in years, that's really not a good
description of stability anymore.  I've run FreeBSD, Solaris, and Linux
at one time or another - as well as dabbled with VMS/VAX (ugh) and
Tru-64.  They are all pretty stable.  Once you get one in place, they
can all have uptimes stretching into years. 

Not to sound contrary, but I'd rather be forced to reboot now and then. 
The reasons are two:  every now and then they change the kernels, so
upgrades require a reboot (just to make sure it's clean) - and the
second reason, which we can argue until the end of time - I have yet to
meet a single OS in existance that hasn't leaked memory due to poor
daemon designs or lazy programmers writing crappy apps. This reflects
nothing upon the OS.  It's the applications or daemons that force a reboot.


If you are concerned about leaving Solaris, and losing your drive
slicing, try the Linux LVM2 on Linux 2.6, it's not exactly the same, but
you'll be right at home.



On the topic of X and a dead mouse, I'd bet when you upgraded one or
both of two things happened.  The package provider for the kernel didn't
update or install the dynamic driver (modules) dependencies so that the
proper mouse drivers load on startup.  You can probably correct this by
listing the modules you want to force load in /etc/modules.

The second possibility is that when you upgraded, it probably decided to
be "helpful" and overwrote your X config file.  You can create your own
by shutting down X, and then running the -configure option on the X
server to create a new file to match your hardware, ie Xorg -configure.
Then move it into place over the old file when you are satisfied with
it.  I _always_ backup my X configs against the fact that upgrades do
strange things.  This is especially the case if you are playing with
Beryl/Compiz/AIGLX/Xgl. 

Personally, I'd be happier if they finished making the hardware support
on X more generic, so that you wouldn't have the majority of these
configuration issues.  Fortunately, they have recognized the wisdom of
that, and are moving in that direction, abeit slowly.

A third, and perhaps less common problem is that the gpm mouse daemon
can cause some X installs to stop using the mouse.  It's rather unlikely
these days though, unless some device packager was an idiot, and didn't
configure the /dev nodes properly.


Laters!

-- 
T.J.



====================================================
"I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the 
interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its 
unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools 
than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been 
to create and use a language that does not overload the 
whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details."
-- Erik Naggum

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 12:51:17 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:51:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re:  Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221243060.16565@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote:

>> The reason is that Linux has been really taking over in computing and 
>> everything is ready to compile and run under Linux.  Linux uses GNU 
>> tools, which are much better than Solaris's tools.  Because of this, I 
>> wouldn't bother with Solaris.
>
> "Better" is a very subjective opinion.  I like GNU tools.  I'm
> familiar with GNU tools.  I can hack on GNU tools and not worry about
> Copyright infringement.  Therefore, I think GNU tools are better.

That's not how it is with me.  I discovered that Solaris fmt was deleting 
international characters like ?, ?, etc., from my files, which I feel is 
totally unacceptable.  GNU fmt didn't do that.  Both sed and awk under 
Solaris failed to handle long lines, and sed would screw up without 
returning an error -- this is a fairly famous bug in Solaris sed that you 
might want to read about.  The GNU versions of both sed and awk (a.k.a., 
gawk) work great even with very long lines.

I also discovered that the Solaris version of sort was much slower than 
the GNU version.  This happened because a friend believed that his 
high-end PC running Linux would out-perform a Solaris box that cost 4 
times as much money and he wanted to prove it.  Some of our colleagues 
were saying that Solaris and SPARC would be faster when a job required a 
lot of I/O.  So we decided to sort a file of several million lines to see 
which mahcine was fastest.  The Linux machine was much faster.  Then I 
realized that I could compile GNU sort under Solaris and see if that was 
the cause of the difference.  It turned out that GNU sort was far faster 
than Solaris sort.  I don't remember the numbers now but it was a 
remarkable difference.

GNU tools have continued to improve and outdo the Solaris versions in many 
ways.  It's not just what I know and like.  In fact, I probably still have 
more experience in Solaris than in Linux.

Mike

From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 12:55:48 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 12:55:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re:  Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221252010.16565@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> So, I disagree that Linux is taking off JUST because of pre-compiled GNU 
> tools.

Did someone say that it was?  It wasn't me.


> I believe Linux is taking off for a number of reasons:
>
>   * The Price is Right -- Can't beat free

Solaris is also free:

http://www2.sun.de/dc/forms/reg_us_2211_391.jsp

I just ordered one the other day.  They wrote back to tell me that it 
should be arriving soon.


>   * Advanced packaging tools (Sun's is a bit behind the curve on this
>     one.)
>   * Public, central, network-accessible package archives (Sun's
>     aren't exactly public.)
>   * Convenient search tools for querying the plethora of packages

And also, there is a great mass of software all ready to run on Linux and 
it is easy to compile it on Linux.  For me this is very important.


> No, I think one of the reasons Solaris isn't as popular amongst desktop 
> consumers is because until recently, they didn't have an x86 product.

They had it back in the 90s for sure, but I don't think they were giving 
it away until recently.

Mike


From tclug at natecarlson.com  Mon Jan 22 13:29:40 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:29:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Chad Walstrom wrote:
>   * Advanced packaging tools (Sun's is a bit behind the curve on this
>     one.)
>   * Public, central, network-accessible package archives (Sun's
>     aren't exactly public.)
>   * Convenient search tools for querying the plethora of packages

You could always run this:

http://www.gnusolaris.org/gswiki

Ubuntu with a Solaris kernel.  :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 13:53:09 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:53:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Nate Carlson wrote:

> You could always run this:
>
> http://www.gnusolaris.org/gswiki
>
> Ubuntu with a Solaris kernel.  :)


Interesting, Nate, I hadn't heard of it.  Is the Solaris kernel now 
distributed under a GPL-compatible license?

What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu?

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 13:58:19 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:58:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse)
In-Reply-To: <45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net>
References: <mailman.294.1169486208.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221354120.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote:

> As for Solaris not being rebooted in years, that's really not a good 
> description of stability anymore.  I've run FreeBSD, Solaris, and Linux 
> at one time or another - as well as dabbled with VMS/VAX (ugh) and 
> Tru-64.  They are all pretty stable.  Once you get one in place, they 
> can all have uptimes stretching into years.
>
> Not to sound contrary, but I'd rather be forced to reboot now and then. 
> The reasons are two:  every now and then they change the kernels, so 
> upgrades require a reboot (just to make sure it's clean) - and the 
> second reason, which we can argue until the end of time - I have yet to 
> meet a single OS in existance that hasn't leaked memory due to poor 
> daemon designs or lazy programmers writing crappy apps. This reflects 
> nothing upon the OS.  It's the applications or daemons that force a 
> reboot.


I agree -- at least for me, not-rebooting-ever isn't all that important. 
I like the fact that Linux is moving forward.  I didn't reboot Solaris 
because I didn't upgrade it.  I didn't upgrade it because I was concerned 
that it would be a hassle.  So the fact that I didn't reboot doesn't 
really reflect well on Solaris -- it isn't just because of stability! 
Also, we've been running a Linux box for 3 years or so and it has only 
been rebooted for power outages and maybe once for a kernel upgrade.  So 
Linux is very stable too.

Mike


From tclug at natecarlson.com  Mon Jan 22 14:03:42 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:03:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221403020.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mike Miller wrote:
> Interesting, Nate, I hadn't heard of it.  Is the Solaris kernel now 
> distributed under a GPL-compatible license?

Not yet, although I've heard rumors that they are discussing 
dual-licensing it with GPLv3.

> What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu?

Well, the Solaris kernel, if you're into such a thing.  :)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Mon Jan 22 14:08:25 2007
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:08:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com>

It's not necessary that the kernel code be GPL compatible. For example,
you can run GNU on MS Windows.


----- Original message -----
From: "Mike Miller" <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
To: "Nate Carlson" <tclug at natecarlson.com>
Cc: "tclug" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 13:53:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Nate Carlson wrote:

> You could always run this:
>
> http://www.gnusolaris.org/gswiki
>
> Ubuntu with a Solaris kernel.  :)


Interesting, Nate, I hadn't heard of it.  Is the Solaris kernel now 
distributed under a GPL-compatible license?

What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu?

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Mon Jan 22 14:36:56 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 14:36:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701222036.l0MKauG08725@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: Want for Free

Subject: PCI Modem Wanted

I've given away a pile of these over the years.  Now I need one for a neighbor.  win-modem is fine.  I can pick-up in the Apple Valley area.

Thank you!

Seller Email address: pclinux at charter dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 15:02:22 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:02:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221403020.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221403020.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221500230.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Nate Carlson wrote:

>> What would be the advantage of using that OS instead of Ubuntu?
>
> Well, the Solaris kernel, if you're into such a thing.  :)

Nice answer.  Let me rephrase that:  What would be the advantage of using 
a Solaris kernel instead of a Linux kernel?  You don't have to have an 
answer for that, of course.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 22 15:04:20 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:04:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221502350.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Isaac Atilano wrote:

> It's not necessary that the kernel code be GPL compatible. For example, 
> you can run GNU on MS Windows.

It isn't technically necessary, but I prefer to work on a non-proprietary 
system to the extent possible.  I still use Windows, but I don't like it! 
;-)  So until Solaris is under a GPL-compatible license, I'll prefer the 
Linux kernel.

Mike


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Mon Jan 22 15:04:28 2007
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:04:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X Mouse)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221354120.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.294.1169486208.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221354120.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net>

We (at work) have a Solaris machine that just rebooted that was up 1400+ days.  
Of course, as soon as it did, it unleashed hell and the iPlanet server 
wouldn't start.  So, the machine with the highest uptime is now a linux 
server (RedHat 7.2) with 1350+ days.

Especially now with the DST 2007 patching (which is not optional), a lot of 
bad problems are showing up on Solaris boxes that had been festering.  The 
package management and integrated LVM on Linux help out a lot in contrast.  
In fact, the DST patching for Linux (packaged and simple) puts the others to 
shame.

I don't share Chad's experience in that supporting it makes me dislike it 
less.  I would say that that's true though for AIX in my sense.

On Monday 22 January 2007 13:58, Mike Miller wrote:
> I agree -- at least for me, not-rebooting-ever isn't all that important.
> I like the fact that Linux is moving forward.  I didn't reboot Solaris
> because I didn't upgrade it.  I didn't upgrade it because I was concerned
> that it would be a hassle.  So the fact that I didn't reboot doesn't
> really reflect well on Solaris -- it isn't just because of stability!
> Also, we've been running a Linux box for 3 years or so and it has only
> been rebooted for power outages and maybe once for a kernel upgrade.  So
> Linux is very stable too.
>
> Mike
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From tclug at natecarlson.com  Mon Jan 22 15:09:40 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:09:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221500230.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221403020.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221500230.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221509170.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Mike Miller wrote:
> Nice answer.  Let me rephrase that:  What would be the advantage of 
> using a Solaris kernel instead of a Linux kernel?  You don't have to 
> have an answer for that, of course.

I'll let a Solaris zealot (if we have any on the list) answer. I haven't 
used it in ages, so I can't really say. Although ZFS does look sweet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Mon Jan 22 15:57:59 2007
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:57:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221502350.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221502350.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com>

Not technically necessary but not legally necessary either.
I'm of the same opinion as you regarding proprietary software. 


----- Original message -----
From: "Mike Miller" <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
To: "Isaac Atilano" <aristophrenic at warpmail.net>
Cc: "tclug" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 15:04:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [OT] Re: Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware

On Mon, 22 Jan 2007, Isaac Atilano wrote:

> It's not necessary that the kernel code be GPL compatible. For example, 
> you can run GNU on MS Windows.

It isn't technically necessary, but I prefer to work on a
non-proprietary 
system to the extent possible.  I still use Windows, but I don't like
it! 
;-)  So until Solaris is under a GPL-compatible license, I'll prefer the 
Linux kernel.

Mike


From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com  Tue Jan 23 13:57:11 2007
From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 13:57:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221502350.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20070123135131.028ed820@pop.mm.com>

A pertinent article re Solaris v Linux:

Seven ways Solaris can beat Linux
Sun needs to make a splash if it wants to win back its Unix OS market share
by Neil  McAllister / InfoWorld / January 22, 2007
http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/01/22/04OPopenent_1.html

1. Raise Solaris' profile.
2. License OpenSolaris under the Gnu GPL.
3. Ship a complete, gorgeous desktop system.
4. Come up with a killer app.
5. Offer hardware support that's second to none.
6. Become the OS of choice for developers.
7. Virtualization all the way.



From brockn at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 14:20:23 2007
From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:20:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation?
Message-ID: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com>

I assume years ago there at sometime a quite low limit on swap partition or
file size? Does anyone know the versions and amounts of this?

Brock
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From thecubic at thecubic.net  Tue Jan 23 14:32:53 2007
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:32:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation?
In-Reply-To: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com>
References: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net>

The old-style swap partition could only use 128M per partition (32 partitions 
total) and 2G total.  Only applies to 2.2 or earlier.

-Dave

On Tuesday 23 January 2007 14:20, Brock Noland wrote:
> I assume years ago there at sometime a quite low limit on swap partition or
> file size? Does anyone know the versions and amounts of this?
>
> Brock
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From brockn at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 14:48:36 2007
From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 14:48:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation?
In-Reply-To: <200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net>
References: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net>
Message-ID: <741dcbb80701231248q28cf2c28k468d4f1208655821@mail.gmail.com>

This explains it. I was taking a linux test and it said:

What do you need if you want 512MB of swap space?

- A 512MB free partition (or 512MB free space on an existing filesystem)
- 4 free partitions with ....
- ....

I clicked A without even reading the rest as it seemed obvivious and got it
wrong. Must have been really out of date as I started using Linux in the
late versions of 2.2 and that was a LONG time ago...

Brock

On 1/23/07, Dave Carlson <thecubic at thecubic.net> wrote:
>
> The old-style swap partition could only use 128M per partition (32
> partitions
> total) and 2G total.  Only applies to 2.2 or earlier.
>
> -Dave
>
> On Tuesday 23 January 2007 14:20, Brock Noland wrote:
> > I assume years ago there at sometime a quite low limit on swap partition
> or
> > file size? Does anyone know the versions and amounts of this?
> >
> > Brock
>
>
>
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From srcfoo at gmail.com  Tue Jan 23 15:43:56 2007
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:43:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Old Swap disk size limitation?
In-Reply-To: <741dcbb80701231248q28cf2c28k468d4f1208655821@mail.gmail.com>
References: <741dcbb80701231220ie7c1678p2e62210730459e35@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701231433.04464.thecubic@thecubic.net>
	<741dcbb80701231248q28cf2c28k468d4f1208655821@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <579c6fd30701231343u377d823dt6904d8f6f31d587@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/23/07, Brock Noland <brockn at gmail.com> wrote:
> This explains it. I was taking a linux test and it said:
>
> What do you need if you want 512MB of swap space?
>
> - A 512MB free partition (or 512MB free space on an existing filesystem)
> - 4 free partitions with ....
> - ....
>
> I clicked A without even reading the rest as it seemed obvivious and got it
> wrong. Must have been really out of date as I started using Linux in the
> late versions of 2.2 and that was a LONG time ago...
>
> Brock


WOW! What test was this? Did you take it recently? Was it for a
certification or just for the fun of it?

Eric


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 23 15:52:47 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 15:52:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Solaris 10 on PC(X86) Hardware
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20070123135131.028ed820@pop.mm.com>
References: <1169480707.13317.6.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<20070122155624.05CAF331D@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221106590.24150@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070122180433.GB18067@wookimus.net>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701221329000.32398@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221340230.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1169496505.28105.1170632459@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221502350.25991@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1169503079.11138.1170652221@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20070123135131.028ed820@pop.mm.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701231536400.10024@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 23 Jan 2007 Dean.Benjamin at mm.com wrote:

> A pertinent article re Solaris v Linux:
>
> Seven ways Solaris can beat Linux
> Sun needs to make a splash if it wants to win back its Unix OS market share
> by Neil  McAllister / InfoWorld / January 22, 2007
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/01/22/04OPopenent_1.html
>
> 1. Raise Solaris' profile.
> 2. License OpenSolaris under the Gnu GPL.
> 3. Ship a complete, gorgeous desktop system.
> 4. Come up with a killer app.
> 5. Offer hardware support that's second to none.
> 6. Become the OS of choice for developers.
> 7. Virtualization all the way.


Interesting, but as I read it, they have already lost.  Why would they 
want to do '1' if they are doing '2'?  There will be no money in it for 
them.  I would avoid Solaris because they don't have '5,' but why will 
they get us to '5' if they've done '2'?  Again, there will be no money in 
it.  If they had reacted appropriately about 8 years ago they would have 
had a chance on '6,' but what is going to happen now to make '6' possible? 
When Sun produces '4,' will it be open/free or will it be proprietary? 
If it is open/free how will it help Solaris more than it helps Linux? -- 
won't it be ported immediately to Linux?  And if it is not open/free and 
it runs only on Solaris, it had better be absolutely amazing or no one 
will want to deal with Solaris just to get this one app.

I think Sun cares more about their hardware at this point.  Why don't they 
focus on making their hardware work well with Linux?  Most IT pros know 
Linux and the community will appreciate Sun's efforts.

Mike


From rclark at lakesplus.com  Tue Jan 23 16:32:25 2007
From: rclark at lakesplus.com (Randy Clarksean)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:32:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] X Windows / Mouse dies?
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570701220912l5b1b939cg49dc3ffdfdaaccec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1169480641.13317.4.camel@localhost.localdomain>
	<ee2fcb570701220912l5b1b939cg49dc3ffdfdaaccec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1169591545.23902.15.camel@localhost.localdomain>

Tried your suggestion ... did not work ... mouse would still not "click"
on anything.

Randy

On Mon, 2007-01-22 at 11:12 -0600, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> On 1/22/07, Randy Clarksean <rclark at lakesplus.com> wrote:
> > I have had this issue a number of times and it is getting more than a
> > bit annoying.
> >
> > System:  FC5 - have updated everything within the last couple of weeks
> > with yum.
> >
> > I am working along ... at some point the system seems to lock up - after
> > a fashion.  I can still move the mouse and the arrow is moving
> > around ... the color of the mouse changes indicating I can move it
> > across windows and that is detected ... but ... I can not select any of
> > the windows open on the screen.  It is like the mouse button feature is
> > gone.
> >
> > I eventually get annoyed ... reset X via ctl-alt-backspace to kill X,
> > relog in and then everything is fine.
> >
> > Thoughts?  Suggestions?  Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Randy
> 
> I think I've seen something very similar to this on my system, but I'm
> not sure if it's the same issue.  It doesn't happen very often, but
> it's very annoying when it does.  I notice it most often on the web
> browser.  When I click on links, it acts as if it has clicked them
> (i.e. it gets one of those dashed outlines that shows that it has the
> focus), but clicking the link doesn't actually load the specified URL.
>  Other click-related stuff doesn't work correctly either.  It seems
> like something has blocked a specific mouse-click event or signal from
> firing.  The workaround I usually use is to switch to a text console
> (e.g. ctrl+alt+F1) and then back to X (ctrl+alt+F7), and then the
> mouse will work normally again.  You might try that next time it
> happens to you...  Unfortunately I haven't investigated it enough to
> find a proper solution.



From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Tue Jan 23 16:48:45 2007
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:48:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] linux pam security
Message-ID: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net>

Hi all,

I got a question about security in linux that I'm having trouble 
googling for.  I'm trying to secure a desktop so that users can still 
log in, but admins have a two factor authentication with the pam_usb module.

Is there a way in pam to say "if you are not in group 'x' or root, your 
password is good enough, otherwise you need your usb key as well"?  I've 
got pam_usb set up for login and su, the su works great, but I don't 
want to require a key for everyone for login.

Thanks all

Chris Frederick


From rwh at visi.com  Tue Jan 23 16:45:13 2007
From: rwh at visi.com (rwh)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 16:45:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] linux pam security
In-Reply-To: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net>
References: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <45B68FF9.3020700@visi.com>

Its been a while since I looked at PAM, but if you don't mind doing a
little hacking there is the pam_require module that can be used to force
specific group membership. It seems like it should be easy enough for it
to negate that test. Then you could make that 'sufficient' so that
non-admins pass and then fall through to the pam_usb to validate the
admin users.

Like I said, its been a while but it should be workable.

--rick

http://www.splitbrain.org/projects/pam_require


Chris Frederick wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I got a question about security in linux that I'm having trouble 
> googling for.  I'm trying to secure a desktop so that users can still 
> log in, but admins have a two factor authentication with the pam_usb module.
> 
> Is there a way in pam to say "if you are not in group 'x' or root, your 
> password is good enough, otherwise you need your usb key as well"?  I've 
> got pam_usb set up for login and su, the su works great, but I don't 
> want to require a key for everyone for login.
> 
> Thanks all
> 
> Chris Frederick
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Tue Jan 23 17:46:39 2007
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:46:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] linux pam security
In-Reply-To: <45B68FF9.3020700@visi.com>
References: <45B690CD.3060101@cdf123.net> <45B68FF9.3020700@visi.com>
Message-ID: <45B69E5F.3080502@cdf123.net>

No hacking needed

<snip /usr/share/doc/pam_require-0.6/README.gz>
Since version 0.3 you may let in everybody __except__ the named group
or user. This example keeps out members of the lusers group:

   account    required   pam_unix.so
   account    required   pam_require.so !@lusers
</snip>

Thanks, I'll give this a shot
Chris

rwh wrote:
> Its been a while since I looked at PAM, but if you don't mind doing a
> little hacking there is the pam_require module that can be used to force
> specific group membership. It seems like it should be easy enough for it
> to negate that test. Then you could make that 'sufficient' so that
> non-admins pass and then fall through to the pam_usb to validate the
> admin users.
> 
> Like I said, its been a while but it should be workable.
> 
> --rick
> 
> http://www.splitbrain.org/projects/pam_require
> 
> 
> Chris Frederick wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I got a question about security in linux that I'm having trouble 
>> googling for.  I'm trying to secure a desktop so that users can still 
>> log in, but admins have a two factor authentication with the pam_usb module.
>>
>> Is there a way in pam to say "if you are not in group 'x' or root, your 
>> password is good enough, otherwise you need your usb key as well"?  I've 
>> got pam_usb set up for login and su, the su works great, but I don't 
>> want to require a key for everyone for login.
>>
>> Thanks all
>>
>> Chris Frederick
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Jan 24 14:07:02 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:07:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
Message-ID: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>

I have a mailscanner server being overwhelmed, so I am setting up a new
box that has postfix installed. I have been running 100% sendmail up to
this point, and have never worked with postfix. I am going through a howto
right now, but having trouble with errors like this:

 NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from p50897187.dip.t-dialin.net[80.137.113.135]:
554 <peggyhd at mydomain>: Relay access denied;
from=<kduszynskieybii at interbusiness.it> to=<peggyhd at mydomain.com>
proto=SMTP helo=<interbusiness.it>

I either have the syntax wrong somewhere, or misunderstanding what is
required. In sendmail I simply set up the mailertable, access, and
relay-domains. I need the new server to act as a mailscanner, and relay
for 3 domains. Anyone have a quick answer?

Raymond



-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From chewie at wookimus.net  Wed Jan 24 14:39:35 2007
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:39:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
In-Reply-To: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>

On Wed, Jan 24, 2007 at 02:07:02PM -0600, admin at lctn.org wrote:
>  NOQUEUE: reject: RCPT from p50897187.dip.t-dialin.net[80.137.113.135]:
> 554 <peggyhd at mydomain>: Relay access denied;
> from=<kduszynskieybii at interbusiness.it> to=<peggyhd at mydomain.com>
> proto=SMTP helo=<interbusiness.it>
> 
> I either have the syntax wrong somewhere, or misunderstanding what
> is required. In sendmail I simply set up the mailertable, access,
> and relay-domains. I need the new server to act as a mailscanner,
> and relay for 3 domains. Anyone have a quick answer?

Is this an incoming relay or an outgoing relay (define mailscanner).
There is a "relay_domains" keyword as well as "mydestination" and
"mynetworks".  Also, check out *_restriction variables.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From admin at lctn.org  Wed Jan 24 14:59:09 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:59:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
In-Reply-To: <20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>
References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org>

> Is this an incoming relay or an outgoing relay (define mailscanner).
> There is a "relay_domains" keyword as well as "mydestination" and
> "mynetworks".  Also, check out *_restriction variables.


It is an incoming relay. I was aware of the relay_domains tag, and thought
I had it right, but am still getting the errors I mentioned. In
/etc/postfix I set up transport, and relay_domains.

In transport my syntax is:

.domain.com      smtp:[x.x.x.x]

In relay_domains I have the domains allowed as:

domain.com    RELAY

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From ddezurik at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 24 15:40:35 2007
From: ddezurik at yahoo.com (Damien DeZurik)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 13:40:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] c++ help
Message-ID: <79159.53697.qm@web37208.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

In college, we used, "Object-Oriented Programming in C++"
(third-edition) by Robert Lafore.  It covered a good spectrum from
beginner concepts to STL, templates, object oriented programming and
design, data structures, etc....  I am not sure how well respected it is in the professional community but it got me started.  I am looking at it now, it has quite
a bit of full examples. 


Another way that may be useful to see examples and, at the same time, get some GUI experience with C++ is to play around with qt (trolltech.com).  They have plenty of partial and full examples on the site.  If working with qt, you may want to check out Kdevelop and QTdesigner together as an IDE (if you haven't already).  Or use vi.  Works either way.

$0.02

Damien



----- Original Message ----
From: Mikhail Skobov <russianhippie666 at gmail.com>
To: Leif Johnson <leif.t.johnson at gmail.com>
Cc: tclug <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Saturday, January 20, 2007 2:43:55 PM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] c++ help

i like the kind of book where you can use the examples to learn as well as the text because its easier for me that way


On 1/20/07, Leif Johnson <leif.t.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
I got started in with "C++ How to Program" by Deitel & Deitel.  It's a pretty good college-level getting started with C++ kinda book.  I guess it depends on what style of book you are looking for.


leif


On 1/19/07, Mikhail Skobov <
russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote: 

Hi, do any of you guys know any C++ books for beginners because i was thinking about starting to learn the language but don't know where to start, thanks.

Mikhail

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota

tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list








_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




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From baz at winternet.com  Wed Jan 24 19:10:53 2007
From: baz at winternet.com (Bryan A. Zimmer)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:10:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Request for ideas
References: <011720071925.25382.45AE7823000408BE0000632622007637040B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
	<101e49ea0701171319h1b446f2aj30ce0b21c388c3c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008601c7401d$a9633970$4900a8c0@localnet>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Joey Rockhold 
  To: auditodd at comcast.net 
  Cc: TCLUG 
  Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:19 PM
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Request for ideas


  Would it work to use a higher-capacity tape drive and mail a box of tapes back and forth?

  - Joey
   
  On 1/17/07, auditodd at comcast.net <auditodd at comcast.net> wrote: 
    Hey all,

    My team at work needs an external USB hard drive that we can ship to vendors and them them return. 

    I'm thinking it would be nice if I could find an enclosure that comes with a matching hard case that would withstand abuse by the average UPS/FedEx flunky.

    Otherwise, we will probably buy generic external USB drives and an Otterbox cases. 

    Thanks for any input! Links to actual products would be appreciated.

    --
    ==========
    Todd Young

    _______________________________________________
    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 
    tclug-list at mn-linux.org
    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
  tclug-list at mn-linux.org
  http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From josh at joshwelch.com  Wed Jan 24 19:46:57 2007
From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch)
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 19:46:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Rebooting ( Was My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and
	X	Mouse))
In-Reply-To: <200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net>
References: <mailman.294.1169486208.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221354120.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net>
Message-ID: <20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>


Quoting Dave Carlson <thecubic at thecubic.net>:

> We (at work) have a Solaris machine that just rebooted that was up 
> 1400+ days.
> Of course, as soon as it did, it unleashed hell and the iPlanet server
> wouldn't start.  So, the machine with the highest uptime is now a linux
> server (RedHat 7.2) with 1350+ days.
>
> Especially now with the DST 2007 patching (which is not optional), a lot of
> bad problems are showing up on Solaris boxes that had been festering.  The
> package management and integrated LVM on Linux help out a lot in contrast.
> In fact, the DST patching for Linux (packaged and simple) puts the others to
> shame.
>
> I don't share Chad's experience in that supporting it makes me dislike it
> less.  I would say that that's true though for AIX in my sense.
>

This is why I actually like rebooting servers every so often, 
preferably in a controlled fashion when you have some available down 
time. Things crop up at reboot that you had forgot about, or put off, 
or didn't know about in the first place, when you reboot a server. The 
longer you go between rebooting a server the less likely you are to 
remember what you had to do to fix it the last time :).

Josh


From chewie at wookimus.net  Thu Jan 25 01:28:20 2007
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:28:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Rebooting ( Was My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and X
	Mouse))
In-Reply-To: <20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com> 
References: <mailman.294.1169486208.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221354120.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net>
	<20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>
Message-ID: <20070125072820.1A332347C@skuld.wookimus.net>

Josh Welch <josh at joshwelch.com>  wrote:
> This is why I actually like rebooting servers every so often,
> preferably in a controlled fashion when you have some available down 
> time.

Actually, we test reboot servers before patches that require reboots
(i.e. new kernel).  That way, if the server fails to recover from the
test reboot, there are bigger problems to solve (i.e. disk failures).
You don't end up wasting hours applying patches only to have the
server never come back to life. 

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From chewie at wookimus.net  Thu Jan 25 01:30:32 2007
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 01:30:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
In-Reply-To: <1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org> 
References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>
	<1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net>

admin at lctn.org  wrote:
> In relay_domains I have the domains allowed as:
> 
> domain.com    RELAY

Um...  relay_domains is simply a list of domains you relay.  It's not
the same as Sendmail's access table specification.  If you are
specifying relay_domains as a file, be sure to only have a single
domain name on each line.
-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From admin at lctn.org  Thu Jan 25 07:23:11 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:23:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
In-Reply-To: <20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>
	<1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org>

> Um...  relay_domains is simply a list of domains you relay.  It's not
> the same as Sendmail's access table specification.  If you arepossibility
> specifying relay_domains as a file, be sure to only have a single
> domain name on each line.

Thanks. I am going to continue to go through the howto today. I simply
need to relay all incoming mail to the destination mail servers, without
getting relaying denied errors. The problem I have, is the posibility of
losing email while testing the settings. Is there a way to test the config
without that risk?

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From dniesen at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 07:45:41 2007
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:45:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: 1and1.com outage?
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com>

Anybody else using 1and1 services/servers?  Seems to be a huge outage,
their main page and every domain and dedicated server I host through
them is inaccessible right now.

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From obelin23 at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 07:55:49 2007
From: obelin23 at gmail.com (Charlie O)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:55:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux
Message-ID: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com>

I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes we
have on to DVD.

I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that.

My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work with
Linux?

And 2 side questions
- how much memory do I need to be able to do this?
- is there anything else I need?

A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as soon
use Linux.

Thanks,

Charlie
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From tclug at natecarlson.com  Thu Jan 25 08:14:04 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:14:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: 1and1.com outage?
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701250813341.8686@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Thu, 25 Jan 2007, Donovan Niesen wrote:
> Anybody else using 1and1 services/servers?  Seems to be a huge outage, 
> their main page and every domain and dedicated server I host through 
> them is inaccessible right now.

I've got a few sites hosted there that are working fine. I know they have 
had some huge outages over the last couple weeks, however.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From chewie at wookimus.net  Thu Jan 25 09:51:03 2007
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:51:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
In-Reply-To: <36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org> 
References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>
	<1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net>

admin at lctn.org  wrote:
> Thanks. I am going to continue to go through the howto today. I simply
> need to relay all incoming mail to the destination mail servers, without
> getting relaying denied errors. The problem I have, is the posibility of
> losing email while testing the settings. Is there a way to test the config
> without that risk?

soft_bounce = yes

Instead of issuing 500 errors, all errors will be in the 400 class.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>           http://www.wookimus.net/
           assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */



From rwh at visi.com  Thu Jan 25 09:18:10 2007
From: rwh at visi.com (rwh)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux
In-Reply-To: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com>
References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com>

I had looked at doing this but ended up using a cheap DVD recorder to
dump the tape to DVD. Then I can play with the encoding and the likes
later although I'll confess to using Handbrake on a Mac to do the actual
format conversions :-)

--rick


Charlie O wrote:
> I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes
> we have on to DVD.
> 
> I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that.
> 
> My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work
> with Linux?
> 
> And 2 side questions
> - how much memory do I need to be able to do this?
> - is there anything else I need?
> 
> A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as
> soon use Linux.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Charlie
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jimdscott at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 10:31:00 2007
From: jimdscott at gmail.com (jim scott)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:31:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux
In-Reply-To: <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com>
References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com>
Message-ID: <c2c8c3a0701250831r3f6b46f1s3326fb2cab03c78e@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, rwh <rwh at visi.com> wrote:
>
> I had looked at doing this but ended up using a cheap DVD recorder to
> dump the tape to DVD. Then I can play with the encoding and the likes
> later although I'll confess to using Handbrake on a Mac to do the actual
> format conversions :-)
>
> --rick
>
>
The Hauppauge cards are well-supported in Linux. A PVR-150 would do the
trick. I have done some VHS to DVD transfers. It takes a long time. The
playback and capture is all in real time. So a 2 hour video takes 2 hours to
capture. If you want to do any editing, then you have the editing time plus
the re-encoding time.
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From swaite at sbn-services.com  Thu Jan 25 10:58:00 2007
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:58:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux
In-Reply-To: <45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com>
References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com>
	<45B8CA32.9050003@visi.com>
Message-ID: <WorldClient-F200701251058.AA58000153@sbn-services.com>

In the past years 
I have used ATI All-in-Wonder (AIW) cards for this purpose. In the past few 
years though they have made ViVo (Video In/Video Out) standard on most 
cards, so you do not necessarily require a AIW/TV Tuner card. I have never 
had much luck with seperate cards, like the ones from Pinnacle, doing this. 
Right now I have a AIW that I use as a DVR to record stuff, but that is 
usally lower quality as it is meant to view on my laptop.

Memory has not been the bottleneck as much as disk speed. 
Ideally you would want a 10/15k SCSI, but that is not practical for most 
people. In that case at least a 7200 SATA. As CPUs get faster, obviously 
that meant more data could be processed, but it all gets negated once you 
hit the slower hard drives. Years back I had no problem CPU wise capturing 
higher quality video, but the drives just could not keep up and it would end 

up either failing or the video would skip. Since most of what I wanted was 
of no real value I ended up just using Windows Media Encoder to do WMV which 

was fine for my needs. Capturing tapes on the other hand you may want a 
higher quality though.

As for memory, most applications of course we use memory for the buffer, so 
ideally the more the better. Again it all depends on how you do this. Some 
programs that allow you to adjust the buffer will obviously benefit from 
more memory. On the other hand many programs out there are just so basic 
that it really does not matter.

Ideally what Rick has 
suggested is one of the best methods. Let the dedicated device to all the 
processing. Then you can transfer the files to a computer and edit them into 

DVD movie format to your liking. I do not know what Linux offerings there 
are, but I do know that the latest versions of Nero for Windows offers a 
really good program for making your own DVDs. My wife brought back a bunch 
of home movies in VCD format that I was easily able to transfer to DVD using 

this method. Using Nero's Vision program it will automatically make the 
menu's and everything for you. You can even capture using this program, but 
again it is an issue of drive speed=performance.

I would suggest taking a look at www.digital-digest.com and their forums. 
They have quite a few FAQs and links that could answer any questions 
regarding software, CODECs, formats, etc.

Sean Waite




-----Original Message-----

From: rwh <rwh at visi.com>

To: Charlie O <obelin23 at gmail.com>

Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org

Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:18:10 -0600

Subject: Re: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux




I had looked at doing this but ended up using a cheap DVD recorder to

dump the tape to DVD. Then I can play with the encoding and the likes

later although I'll confess to using Handbrake on a Mac to do the actual

format conversions :-)



--rick





Charlie O wrote:

> I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the 
videocassettes

> we have on to DVD.

> 

> I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that.

> 

> My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will 
work

> with Linux?

> 

> And 2 side questions

> - how much memory do I need to be able to do this?

> - is there anything else I need?

> 

> A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just 
as

> soon use Linux.

> 

> Thanks,

> 

> Charlie

> 

> 

> 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

> 

> _______________________________________________

> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota

> tclug-list at mn-linux.org

> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 
[http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list]






_______________________________________________

TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota

tclug-list at mn-linux.org

http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 
[http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list]
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From crumley at belka.space.umn.edu  Thu Jan 25 10:54:43 2007
From: crumley at belka.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:54:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux
In-Reply-To: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com>
References: <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070125105443.A17014@pchelka.space.umn.edu>

On Thu, Jan 25, 2007 at 07:55:49AM -0600, Charlie O wrote:
> I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes we
> have on to DVD.
> 
> I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that.
> 
> My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work with
> Linux?

Another way to go with this is to use a camcorder.  If you have
access to a camcorder with firewire or USB out and RCA inputs (or
whatever you need to connect to your VCR), then you can connect
your VCR to the camcorder, and the firewire/USB to the computer.

I have done it this way, and it works nicely, and you avoid
having to buy a capture card.  Of course capture cards are
cheaper than camcorders, so this might not be any help ;).


-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/ 
Never laugh at live dragons  |


From john.meier at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 11:40:03 2007
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:40:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: 1and1.com outage?
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70701250545kee51050i51bb9deea0fe6941@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65293fcc0701250940i650c5b69yb9561628ca6d22fb@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, Donovan Niesen <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Anybody else using 1and1 services/servers?  Seems to be a huge outage,
> their main page and every domain and dedicated server I host through
> them is inaccessible right now.


My two are up.  I did report a compromise of my account and/or the server
that hosts my account the other day - some odd files showed up in my
directory structure - a couple we're even owned by root!
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From admin at lctn.org  Thu Jan 25 17:25:04 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:25:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
In-Reply-To: <20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>
	<1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <2192.64.8.148.4.1169767504.squirrel@lctn.org>

Got it working.

I had to add the networks for the schools under mynetworks. That with
relay_domains, and transport configured got things working.

Thanks for the help!

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From josh at joshwelch.com  Thu Jan 25 20:01:12 2007
From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 20:01:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Rebooting ( Was My 2 cents (Was Solaris 10 and
	X	Mouse))
In-Reply-To: <20070125072820.1A332347C@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <mailman.294.1169486208.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<45B4FF8B.6060800@kewlness.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701221354120.7810@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200701221504.32757.thecubic@thecubic.net>
	<20070124194657.ffxhdjremj4ss8k8@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>
	<20070125072820.1A332347C@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <20070125200112.15kqvxpl554440wc@bullwinkle.joshwelch.com>

Quoting Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>:

> Josh Welch <josh at joshwelch.com>  wrote:
>> This is why I actually like rebooting servers every so often,
>> preferably in a controlled fashion when you have some available down
>> time.
>
> Actually, we test reboot servers before patches that require reboots
> (i.e. new kernel).  That way, if the server fails to recover from the
> test reboot, there are bigger problems to solve (i.e. disk failures).
> You don't end up wasting hours applying patches only to have the
> server never come back to life.
>

That's a hell of a sensible policy.

Josh


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Jan 25 21:33:32 2007
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 21:33:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] postfix question
In-Reply-To: <6500326.1169767811881.JavaMail.root@sniper39>
References: <4755.64.8.148.4.1169669222.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070124203935.GL11242@wookimus.net>
	<1054.64.8.148.4.1169672349.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070125073032.D00B3347C@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<36016.204.212.34.10.1169731391.squirrel@lctn.org>
	<20070125155103.87078337C@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<6500326.1169767811881.JavaMail.root@sniper39>
Message-ID: <3001.216.17.75.74.1169782412.squirrel@www.krytosvirus.com>

> Got it working.
>
> I had to add the networks for the schools under mynetworks. That with
> relay_domains, and transport configured got things working.
>
> Thanks for the help!
>

Adding IP's to mynetworks bypasses the relay check and just allows them
full access to relay to any domain
http://www.postfix.org/postconf.5.html#mynetworks

The way to best help would be if you provided the output of postconf -n



From danyberg at gmail.com  Thu Jan 25 23:55:10 2007
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 23:55:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 25, Issue 30
In-Reply-To: <mailman.320.1169740287.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.320.1169740287.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <5daafeb10701252155k638e0915ra61d8cf6fd302a10@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:55:49 -0600
> From: "Charlie O" <obelin23 at gmail.com>
> Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID:
>         <72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes we
> have on to DVD.
>
> I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that.
>
> My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work with
> Linux?
>
> And 2 side questions
> - how much memory do I need to be able to do this?
> - is there anything else I need?
>
> A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as
> soon
> use Linux.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie
> ------------------------------




The only reason I keep an XP partition on this computer is for capturing
video with my ATI AIW Radeon 7500.  I understand some people have gotten
this card to work properly with linux, I'm not one of them.  Though I was
mostly trying to get the TV tuner working using GATOS
http://gatos.sourceforge.net/ .  The card works great in Windows, but only
fair in linux.  But it's also many years old now.

Dave
<><
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From tommyj27 at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 00:10:10 2007
From: tommyj27 at gmail.com (Thomas Johnson)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 00:10:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Problem setting up dial-in server,
	mgetty doesn't pick up?
Message-ID: <1469cda20701252210m71b58794m13e61664774c3650@mail.gmail.com>

I've been playing around with the idea of setting up a modem on my
home server to dial in and get access to home and the internet (via
bluetooth/cell, yes I know how slow it is). The server in question is
running Ubuntu 6.06 and I followed the guide at
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=150339.

Thus far I have been mostly unsuccessful at even getting the modem to
pick up, when I dial in I hear a click (presumably the modem picking
up) followed by another click several seconds later (hanging up?). the
mgetty log file shows activity that doesn't look correct, but I'm no
expert so I really don't know what I'm looking at.

The only success I've had at getting the two modems to talk to each
other was when I happened to have a 'cat /dev/ttyS0' running in
another terminal, the modems negotiated and the client tried to
authenticate but got nowhere.

I'm not sure what isn't set up right with mgetty, it looks pretty
straight-forward, mgetty handles the connection, then fires up pppd to
handle the authentication. I am copying my log output from mgetty and
hoping that someone here has some experience that they haven't
forgotten since dial-up became yesterday's news.

01/25 23:40:03 yS0  mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10
01/25 23:40:03 yS0  check for lockfiles
01/25 23:40:03 yS0   checklock: stat failed, no file
01/25 23:40:03 yS0  locking the line
01/25 23:40:03 yS0   makelock(ttyS0) called
01/25 23:40:03 yS0   do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0'
01/25 23:40:03 yS0   lock made
01/25 23:40:03 yS0   tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR
01/25 23:40:03 yS0  lowering DTR to reset Modem
01/25 23:40:04 yS0   tss: set speed to 57600 (10001)
01/25 23:40:04 yS0   tio_set_flow_control( HARD )
01/25 23:40:04 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read:
01/25 23:40:04 yS0  send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d]
01/25 23:40:04 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
01/25 23:40:04 yS0   got: ATQ0V1H0[0d]
01/25 23:40:04 yS0    CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found **
01/25 23:40:04 yS0  send: AT[0d]
01/25 23:40:04 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
01/25 23:40:04 yS0   got: [0d]
01/25 23:40:04 yS0    CND: OK[0a]AT[0d]
01/25 23:40:04 yS0    CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found **
01/25 23:40:04 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a]
01/25 23:40:05 yS0   removing lock file
01/25 23:40:05 yS0  waiting...
01/25 23:45:29 yS0    select returned 1
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   checking lockfiles, locking the line
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   makelock(ttyS0) called
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0'
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   lock made
01/25 23:45:29 yS0  wfr: waiting for ``RING''
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   got: [0d][0a]NO CARRIER
01/25 23:45:29 yS0  wfr: found action string: ``NO CARRIER''
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   wfr: rc=-1, drn=0
01/25 23:45:29 ##### failed A_FAIL dev=ttyS0, pid=4763, caller='none'

--
01/25 23:45:29 yS0  mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10
01/25 23:45:29 yS0  check for lockfiles
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   checklock: no active process has lock, will remove
01/25 23:45:29 yS0  locking the line
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   makelock(ttyS0) called
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0'
01/25 23:45:29 yS0   lock made
01/25 23:45:30 yS0   tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR
01/25 23:45:30 yS0  lowering DTR to reset Modem
01/25 23:45:30 yS0   tss: set speed to 57600 (10001)
01/25 23:45:30 yS0   tio_set_flow_control( HARD )
01/25 23:45:30 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read:
01/25 23:45:30 yS0  send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d]
01/25 23:45:31 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
01/25 23:45:31 yS0   got: ATQ0V1H0[0d]
01/25 23:45:31 yS0    CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found **
01/25 23:45:31 yS0  send: AT[0d]
01/25 23:45:31 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
01/25 23:45:31 yS0   got: [0d]
01/25 23:45:31 yS0    CND: OK[0a]AT[0d]
01/25 23:45:31 yS0    CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found **
01/25 23:45:31 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a]
01/25 23:45:31 yS0   removing lock file
01/25 23:45:31 yS0  waiting...


From auditodd at comcast.net  Fri Jan 26 08:18:58 2007
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 14:18:58 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Problem setting up dial-in server,
	mgetty doesn't pick up?
Message-ID: <012620071418.24178.45BA0DD20008D1BD00005E7222058860140B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>

Haven't tried this myself yet, but it looked interesting:
http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_dialin_server

--
==========
Todd Young

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Thomas Johnson" <tommyj27 at gmail.com>
> I've been playing around with the idea of setting up a modem on my
> home server to dial in and get access to home and the internet (via
> bluetooth/cell, yes I know how slow it is). The server in question is
> running Ubuntu 6.06 and I followed the guide at
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=150339.
> 
> Thus far I have been mostly unsuccessful at even getting the modem to
> pick up, when I dial in I hear a click (presumably the modem picking
> up) followed by another click several seconds later (hanging up?). the
> mgetty log file shows activity that doesn't look correct, but I'm no
> expert so I really don't know what I'm looking at.
> 
> The only success I've had at getting the two modems to talk to each
> other was when I happened to have a 'cat /dev/ttyS0' running in
> another terminal, the modems negotiated and the client tried to
> authenticate but got nowhere.
> 
> I'm not sure what isn't set up right with mgetty, it looks pretty
> straight-forward, mgetty handles the connection, then fires up pppd to
> handle the authentication. I am copying my log output from mgetty and
> hoping that someone here has some experience that they haven't
> forgotten since dial-up became yesterday's news.
> 
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0  mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0  check for lockfiles
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0   checklock: stat failed, no file
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0  locking the line
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0   makelock(ttyS0) called
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0   do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0'
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0   lock made
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0   tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR
> 01/25 23:40:03 yS0  lowering DTR to reset Modem
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0   tss: set speed to 57600 (10001)
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0   tio_set_flow_control( HARD )
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read:
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0  send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d]
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0   got: ATQ0V1H0[0d]
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0    CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found **
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0  send: AT[0d]
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0   got: [0d]
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0    CND: OK[0a]AT[0d]
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0    CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found **
> 01/25 23:40:04 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a]
> 01/25 23:40:05 yS0   removing lock file
> 01/25 23:40:05 yS0  waiting...
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0    select returned 1
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   checking lockfiles, locking the line
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   makelock(ttyS0) called
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0'
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   lock made
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0  wfr: waiting for ``RING''
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   got: [0d][0a]NO CARRIER
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0  wfr: found action string: ``NO CARRIER''
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   wfr: rc=-1, drn=0
> 01/25 23:45:29 ##### failed A_FAIL dev=ttyS0, pid=4763, caller='none'
> 
> --
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0  mgetty: interim release 1.1.33-Apr10
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0  check for lockfiles
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   checklock: no active process has lock, will remove
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0  locking the line
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   makelock(ttyS0) called
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   do_makelock: lock='/var/lock/LCK..ttyS0'
> 01/25 23:45:29 yS0   lock made
> 01/25 23:45:30 yS0   tio_get_rs232_lines: status: RTS CTS DSR DTR
> 01/25 23:45:30 yS0  lowering DTR to reset Modem
> 01/25 23:45:30 yS0   tss: set speed to 57600 (10001)
> 01/25 23:45:30 yS0   tio_set_flow_control( HARD )
> 01/25 23:45:30 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=1), read:
> 01/25 23:45:30 yS0  send: \dATQ0V1H0[0d]
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0   got: ATQ0V1H0[0d]
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0    CND: ATQ0V1H0[0d][0a]OK ** found **
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0  send: AT[0d]
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0  waiting for ``OK''
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0   got: [0d]
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0    CND: OK[0a]AT[0d]
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0    CND: AT[0d][0a]OK ** found **
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0   waiting for line to clear (VTIME=3), read: [0d][0a]
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0   removing lock file
> 01/25 23:45:31 yS0  waiting...
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From robbyt at robbyt.net  Fri Jan 26 11:08:57 2007
From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 11:08:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 25, Issue 30
In-Reply-To: <5daafeb10701252155k638e0915ra61d8cf6fd302a10@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.320.1169740287.2107.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<5daafeb10701252155k638e0915ra61d8cf6fd302a10@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1f663090701260908j5ef02b2bg8179cbd1d7a2d430@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/25/07, swede <danyberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:55:49 -0600
> > From: "Charlie O" < obelin23 at gmail.com>
> > Subject: [tclug-list] transferring videocassettes to DVD with Linux
> > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Message-ID:
> >         < 72278d10701250555i17bcb2d7ted2033ba4a6b4241 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > I want to set up my machine, to be able to transfer the videocassettes
> > we
> > have on to DVD.
> >
> > I know I need a DVD-RW, and Linux should be able to handle that.
> >
> > My question is, what kind(s) of video card with video input will work
> > with
> > Linux?
> >
> > And 2 side questions
> > - how much memory do I need to be able to do this?
> > - is there anything else I need?
> >
> > A video card that works with Windows2000 would also do, but I'd just as
> > soon
> > use Linux.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Charlie
> > ------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> The only reason I keep an XP partition on this computer is for capturing
> video with my ATI AIW Radeon 7500.  I understand some people have gotten
> this card to work properly with linux, I'm not one of them.  Though I was
> mostly trying to get the TV tuner working using GATOS
> http://gatos.sourceforge.net/ .  The card works great in Windows, but only
> fair in linux.  But it's also many years old now.
>
> Dave
>

This is something that linux can very easily handle.  It seems a bit of a
mis-managmeent of resources to run a windows computer specificly for a task
that can be completed easily and with better quality results in Linux.

http://www.pchdtv.com/
$130 for the 5500 card.
When you're done ripping VHS tapes, you can use the card for a HDTV mythtv
box.
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From danyberg at gmail.com  Fri Jan 26 21:14:06 2007
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2007 21:14:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Video capture
Message-ID: <5daafeb10701261914gfd83f3fl35ec7487ec5001c6@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> > The only reason I keep an XP partition on this computer is for capturing
> > video with my ATI AIW Radeon 7500.  I understand some people have gotten
> > this card to work properly with linux, I'm not one of them.  Though I
> was
> > mostly trying to get the TV tuner working using GATOS
> > http://gatos.sourceforge.net/ .  The card works great in Windows, but
> only
> > fair in linux.  But it's also many years old now.
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> This is something that linux can very easily handle.  It seems a bit of a
> mis-managmeent of resources to run a windows computer specificly for a
> task
> that can be completed easily and with better quality results in Linux.
>
> http://www.pchdtv.com/
> $130 for the 5500 card.
> When you're done ripping VHS tapes, you can use the card for a HDTV mythtv
> box.
>

Looks good, when I get a few bucks I'll get one.
Thanks.

Dave
<><
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From tommyj27 at gmail.com  Sat Jan 27 12:39:56 2007
From: tommyj27 at gmail.com (Thomas Johnson)
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2007 12:39:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Problem setting up dial-in server,
	mgetty doesn't pick up?
In-Reply-To: <012620071418.24178.45BA0DD20008D1BD00005E7222058860140B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
References: <012620071418.24178.45BA0DD20008D1BD00005E7222058860140B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1469cda20701271039h46155b7av478cf6893579fa32@mail.gmail.com>

I finally got this working, but I had to compile mgetty on Slackware
before I found the problem with Ubuntu. As it turns out, Ubuntu wasn't
sending the correct init string to the modem by default. I set the
init-chat variable in mgetty.config and things started working right
away. For anyone interested, I replied to the howto with my solution
in a little more detail:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2071089#post2071089

On 1/26/07, auditodd at comcast.net <auditodd at comcast.net> wrote:
> Haven't tried this myself yet, but it looked interesting:
> http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_dialin_server


From mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com  Sun Jan 28 12:55:40 2007
From: mattjohnson2005 at gmail.com (Matthew Johnson)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 12:55:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DSL Service w/ Static IP
In-Reply-To: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
References: <WorldClient-F200701151333.AA33480111@sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <7d3948c70701281055wefb56ftaee3c4b7b0b5dee0@mail.gmail.com>

My comments on my recent DSL search in Columbia Hts (next to Mpls).

On 1/15/07, Sean Waite <swaite at sbn-services.com> wrote:
>
>
> I have been calling around to different services without luck so far trying
> to get a decent DSL for my home. The catch is I need a static IP. So far the

I also wanted to install DSL.  I'm changing from comcast to dsl for
the lower per month price, albeit at a lower speed.  I've given
comcast about 2,291 dollars and 25 cents and I figure that is enough.

I was looking for 1.5M down and 600 up(or whatever) with stand-alone
dsl , no voice line bundle.  I use VoIP for voice.

All of these deals expire Feb 17 2007 when the qwest dsl line
promotion expires.  I'm sure then will be another promotion shortly
after that.

visi: $27 + 19.95(isp) = $46.95
iphouse: $27(qwest) + 19.95 (isp) = $46.95
speakeasy: $55.96/mo qwest charges included.
usfamily.net $27(qwest) +$7.99(isp, prepaid annually) = $34.99  This
is metered access where if you transfer more then 10gig in 30 days you
get your ports cut off and pooled with other high bandwidth users.
qwest.net  $32  basic?  They quote this on the front page and don't
give an option for it later on.  MSN is the only "choice."
    qwest choice dsl deluxe with msn premium $36.99


The qwest MN ISP list is here:
http://www.qwest.com/dsl/inc/isp_list/MN.html

Good Luck,

 -Matt Johnson


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Sun Jan 28 20:39:52 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 20:39:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701290239.l0T2dq607661@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Twin Pentium 3

Twin Pentium 3 running @ 500mhz for sale.

768mb pc133 ram
2x Scsi Drives: one 9gb, and one 16gb.
Scsi Cd-Rom
Netgear Nic

Scsi Controller is onboard, Model AIC-7895/2940W

$130.00 or best offer, Cash Only.

Thanks,

Seller Email address: blacknight_709 at hotmail dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From tmarble at info9.net  Mon Jan 29 07:04:12 2007
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:04:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Open Document Format in Minnesota?
In-Reply-To: <s5ae503d.071@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>
References: <s5ae503d.071@mdh-gw9.health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <45BDF0CC.9040000@info9.net>

Troy.A Johnson wrote:
> I thought this might be on topic for TCLUG because it might
> possibly put Linux in better standing as a desktop client:
> 
> http://ros.leg.mn/bin/bldbill.php?bill=H0176.0.html&session=ls85

Indeed... Let's ask our friends and families to contact their
legislators and make this law!

http://blogs.sun.com/tmarble/entry/minnesota_will_remember

Regards,

--Tom



From tclug-announce-bounces at mn-linux.org  Mon Jan 29 10:28:23 2007
From: tclug-announce-bounces at mn-linux.org (tclug-announce-bounces at mn-linux.org)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 10:28:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Forward of moderated message
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1170088103.30068.tclug-announce@mn-linux.org>

An embedded message was scrubbed...
From: "Michael Goddard" <mgoddardster at gmail.com>
Subject: February Users Group Meeting - Any Updates?
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 07:04:43 -0600
Size: 2879
Url: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070129/474c6bb7/attachment.eml 

From robbyt at robbyt.net  Mon Jan 29 18:47:56 2007
From: robbyt at robbyt.net (Rob Terhaar)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 18:47:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
Message-ID: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>

Just browsing around and came across this:
http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US

Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a
midnight release of Vista this evening.

Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc
anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy.
Any one interested in helping out?
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From russianhippie666 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 29 19:22:10 2007
From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:22:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701291722o16f0adcahfaa46bead2693ad6@mail.gmail.com>

time and place and ill see if i can

On 1/29/07, Rob Terhaar <robbyt at robbyt.net> wrote:
>
> Just browsing around and came across this:
> http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US
>
>
> Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a
> midnight release of Vista this evening.
>
> Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of
> adhoc anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista
> enemy. Any one interested in helping out?
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From silwenae at gmail.com  Mon Jan 29 19:46:11 2007
From: silwenae at gmail.com (Paul Cutler)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:46:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd:  Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <4c4ad4df0701291744x262e20e4y256b137b4864cc2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<6f6d54f70701291722o16f0adcahfaa46bead2693ad6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c4ad4df0701291744x262e20e4y256b137b4864cc2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c4ad4df0701291746g1d6f3530r1367827b1eed1e7a@mail.gmail.com>

I know the Best Buy store in Richfield is opening at midnight.  I can't make
it tonight though.

--Paul

On 1/29/07, Mikhail Skobov < russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote:

> time and place and ill see if i can
>
> On 1/29/07, Rob Terhaar < robbyt at robbyt.net> wrote:
>
> > Just browsing around and came across this:
> > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US
> >
> >
> > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having
> > a midnight release of Vista this evening.
> >
> > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of
> > adhoc anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista
> > enemy. Any one interested in helping out?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From russianhippie666 at gmail.com  Mon Jan 29 19:55:40 2007
From: russianhippie666 at gmail.com (Mikhail Skobov)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 19:55:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <4c4ad4df0701291746g1d6f3530r1367827b1eed1e7a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<6f6d54f70701291722o16f0adcahfaa46bead2693ad6@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c4ad4df0701291744x262e20e4y256b137b4864cc2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4c4ad4df0701291746g1d6f3530r1367827b1eed1e7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f6d54f70701291755h5f4dbcf8u3e9841ce1e97133d@mail.gmail.com>

i can't make it to that one i live in eden prairie

On 1/29/07, Paul Cutler <silwenae at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I know the Best Buy store in Richfield is opening at midnight.  I can't
> make it tonight though.
>
> --Paul
>
>  On 1/29/07, Mikhail Skobov < russianhippie666 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > time and place and ill see if i can
> >
> >  On 1/29/07, Rob Terhaar < robbyt at robbyt.net> wrote:
> >
> > > Just browsing around and came across this:
> > > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US
> > >
> > >
> > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be
> > > having a midnight release of Vista this evening.
> > >
> > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of
> > > adhoc anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista
> > > enemy. Any one interested in helping out?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From sos at zjod.net  Mon Jan 29 20:09:14 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:09:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net>

Rob Terhaar wrote:
> 
> Just browsing around and came across this:
> http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US
> 
> Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a
> midnight release of Vista this evening.
> 
> Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc
> anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy.
> Any one interested in helping out?

You might also check out http://badvista.fsf.org, which this week has a pointer
on www.gnu.org's home page.


From auditodd at comcast.net  Mon Jan 29 20:39:07 2007
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:39:07 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
Message-ID: <013020070239.494.45BEAFCB0007BC63000001EE22007621940B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>

If you wish to protest the DRM and closed source software, I'm all for it. 

BUT....

Please do so in a non-confrontational manner. 
Getting into people's faces with a rabid-dog mentality will do NOTHING for Linux or the Open Source movement.

Also remember that there will be people attending the conference at the Minneapolis Convention Center that are going there to see not only Vista, but also Office2007 and the new Exchange Server release. Maybe not because they want to, but because they have to deal with Windows at work and therefore have to know what is going on in the Microsoft world.

Be informative, not confrontational.

Just my $0.02

--
==========
Todd Young

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Rob Terhaar" <robbyt at robbyt.net>
> Just browsing around and came across this:
> http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en
> -US
> 
> Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a
> midnight release of Vista this evening.
> 
> Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc
> anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy.
> Any one interested in helping out?


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From: "Rob Terhaar" <robbyt at robbyt.net>
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:55:24 +0000
Size: 2194
Url: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20070130/171d4d33/attachment-0001.eml 

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Mon Jan 29 20:36:00 2007
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 20:36:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net>
Message-ID: <f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/29/07, Steve Siegfried <sos at zjod.net> wrote:
> Rob Terhaar wrote:
> >
> > Just browsing around and came across this:
> > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US
> >
> > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a
> > midnight release of Vista this evening.
> >
> > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc
> > anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy.
> > Any one interested in helping out?
>
> You might also check out http://badvista.fsf.org, which this week has a pointer
> on www.gnu.org's home page.
>

and if anyone ever doubted the veracity of the theo de raadt forbes
quote; one hour on the life of this thread surely drives the point
home.

-- 
steve ulrich <sulrich at botwerks.org>


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jan 29 21:58:02 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 21:58:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<200701300209.l0U29E9f009466@zjod.net>
	<f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701292154480.31@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 29 Jan 2007, steve ulrich wrote:

> and if anyone ever doubted the veracity of the theo de raadt forbes
> quote; one hour on the life of this thread surely drives the point
> home.


What does that mean?  This quote?...

"Linux people do what they do because they hate Microsoft. We do what we 
do because we love Unix."

http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html

Mike


From sos at zjod.net  Tue Jan 30 00:47:34 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 00:47:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701300647.l0U6lYGY032488@zjod.net>

steve ulrich wrote:
> 
> On 1/29/07, Steve Siegfried <sos at zjod.net> wrote:
> > Rob Terhaar wrote:
> > >
> > > Just browsing around and came across this:
> > > http://msevents.microsoft.com/CUI/EventDetail.aspx?EventID=1032314652&Culture=en-US
> > >
> > > Additionally, a number of stores around the metro are going to be having a
> > > midnight release of Vista this evening.
> > >
> > > Now, it's very last-second- but I was contemplating doing some sort of adhoc
> > > anti-drm anti-non-free software flier campaign to combat the Vista enemy.
> > > Any one interested in helping out?
> >
> > You might also check out http://badvista.fsf.org, which this week has a pointer
> > on www.gnu.org's home page.
> >
> 
> and if anyone ever doubted the veracity of the theo de raadt forbes
> quote; one hour on the life of this thread surely drives the point
> home.

Thanks for the reference to a quote you couldn't be bothered to actually
quote.

But Steve?  Since you're obviously a Theo De Raadt fan, why are you
even here?  This is a Linux list.  Shouldn't you be annoying folks
on a BSD list somewhere?  Instead, you're here, turning an obscure De
Raadt/Torvalds pissing contest into an even more obscure AOLesque "Me
Too!".  Well good for you, Steve; you're the smartest guy in the room.
Now please go away.

-Steve (who-was-only-trying-to-provide-some-resource-material) Siegfried


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Tue Jan 30 02:36:12 2007
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 02:36:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701292154480.31@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701292154480.31@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net>

FUD.  I like how that article gives BSD the credit for Solaris even though 
Solaris has been SVR4-derived since 1992.  That plus de Raadt talking out of 
his ass equals a Forbes article, I guess...

-Dave

On Monday 29 January 2007 21:58, Mike Miller wrote:
> http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-c
>z_dl_0616theo.html

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From rhubarbpie at poetworld.net  Tue Jan 30 08:31:38 2007
From: rhubarbpie at poetworld.net (rhubarbpie at poetworld.net)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 08:31:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
Message-ID: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>


I need to replace my rather ancient IBM A21e Thinkpad and don't want to 
pay a Windows tax.  I understand linuxcertified.com sells notebooks 
without windows.  They also offer the option of no OS.  I have three 
questions:

* Does anyone have experience with the LC2210e from linuxcertified.com?  
As I'm using a six-year-old A21e I don't need a notebook powerhouse.

* Are there other notebooks which impose no Windows tax?

* If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain 
Windows credit from MS?  I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to 
jump through hoops.


From jeruvin at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 09:13:09 2007
From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:13:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
Message-ID: <6eb23c4e0701300713u1bd2fe9bne7ae7c031fb7015a@mail.gmail.com>

I have been keeping http://www.system76.com/ in my list to check out when I
replace my laptop. A SASE envelope will get you some free "powered by
ubuntu" stickers. I have no experience with them besides getting my Ubuntu
stickers.

Jason

On 1/30/07, rhubarbpie at poetworld.net <rhubarbpie at poetworld.net> wrote:
>
>
> I need to replace my rather ancient IBM A21e Thinkpad and don't want to
> pay a Windows tax.  I understand linuxcertified.com sells notebooks
> without windows.  They also offer the option of no OS.  I have three
> questions:
>
> * Does anyone have experience with the LC2210e from linuxcertified.com?
> As I'm using a six-year-old A21e I don't need a notebook powerhouse.
>
> * Are there other notebooks which impose no Windows tax?
>
> * If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain
> Windows credit from MS?  I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to
> jump through hoops.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From sos at zjod.net  Tue Jan 30 09:35:39 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:35:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
Message-ID: <200701301535.l0UFZdGh009844@zjod.net>


In part, rhubarbpie at poetworld.net posted to the tclug list:
> 
> * If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain 
> Windows credit from MS?  I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to 
> jump through hoops.
> 

I've heard and read of people doing this.  Universally, the experience is
described as time consuming, often frustrating and fraught with pitfalls,
any one of which might disqualify you from getting the refund.  So jumping
through hoops might be understating the process a bit.  Further, when
you finally get the refund, it isn't anywhere near what you'd expect to
pay for a retail copy of Windows.

Assuming you actually elect this route, a good tutorial on how to get
the refund from Dell (but probably applicable to other vendors, too)
can be found at:
	http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/03/227237

However, other vendors may not be as accommodating:
	http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html

Hope this helps,

-S


From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 09:49:47 2007
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 09:49:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, rhubarbpie at poetworld.net <rhubarbpie at poetworld.net> wrote:
>
> I need to replace my rather ancient IBM A21e Thinkpad and don't want to
> pay a Windows tax.  I understand linuxcertified.com sells notebooks
> without windows.  They also offer the option of no OS.  I have three
> questions:
>
> * Does anyone have experience with the LC2210e from linuxcertified.com?
> As I'm using a six-year-old A21e I don't need a notebook powerhouse.
>
> * Are there other notebooks which impose no Windows tax?
>
> * If I buy a Windows box, what's the most successful way to obtain
> Windows credit from MS?  I've read of some doing this and I'm willing to
> jump through hoops.
>

One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as
well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or
not).  I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series
through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any
cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let
them know that you have no need for windows.
http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

-- 
jonner


From tclug at natecarlson.com  Tue Jan 30 10:45:38 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (tclug at natecarlson.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:45:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as 
> well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or 
> not).  I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series 
> through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any 
> cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let 
> them know that you have no need for windows. 
>
> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd

I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy 
it with Windows than without.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 10:56:35 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 10:56:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701292154480.31@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301054400.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Dave Carlson wrote:

> FUD.  I like how that article gives BSD the credit for Solaris even 
> though Solaris has been SVR4-derived since 1992.  That plus de Raadt 
> talking out of his ass equals a Forbes article, I guess...
>
> -Dave
>
> On Monday 29 January 2007 21:58, Mike Miller wrote:
> http://www.forbes.com/intelligentinfrastructure/2005/06/16/linux-bsd-unix-cz_dl_0616theo.html


Just so you know -- I sent that URL but that doesn't mean I agree with 
what the interviewee was saying.  I'm quite happy with Linux so far.  If 
FreeBSD is better in some way, I may never know that from experience. 
Even if I were to use FreeBSD, I doubt that differences in the kernels 
would mean much to me as a user.

Mike


From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 11:17:33 2007
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:17:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, tclug at natecarlson.com <tclug at natecarlson.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> > One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as
> > well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or
> > not).  I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series
> > through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any
> > cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let
> > them know that you have no need for windows.
> >
> > http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
>
> I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy
> it with Windows than without.

You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system?  Because I was
just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to
exactly the same price with and without windows.  The one big
difference seemed to be that not all of the same options were
available depending on whether you were looking at the with-windows or
without-windows options (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer
me more choices of processor speed on the higher end and less choice
on the bottom end...  Don't ask me why...)

-- 
jonner


From tclug at natecarlson.com  Tue Jan 30 11:20:37 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:20:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> 
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301119340.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system?  Because I was 
> just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly 
> the same price with and without windows.  The one big difference seemed 
> to be that not all of the same options were available depending on 
> whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options 
> (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of 
> processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... 
> Don't ask me why...)

Yeah, they were identical. They had a pile of promo's that only were only 
applied to the Windows laptop.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 11:30:49 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:30:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:

> On 1/30/07, tclug at natecarlson.com <tclug at natecarlson.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
>>> One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as
>>> well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or
>>> not).  I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series
>>> through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any
>>> cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let
>>> them know that you have no need for windows.
>>>
>>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
>>
>> I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy
>> it with Windows than without.
>
> You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system?  Because I was 
> just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly 
> the same price with and without windows.  The one big difference seemed 
> to be that not all of the same options were available depending on 
> whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options 
> (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of 
> processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... 
> Don't ask me why...)


Obviously, Dell and most other manufacturers have agreements with 
Microsoft.  Do Intel and Microsoft also come up with agreements?  It could 
work like this:  Microsoft can make their system run slower so that people 
are motivated to buy new hardware.  Microsoft doesn't have much 
competition, so they don't have a lot of motivation to optimize their code 
for speed.  Why wouldn't they help Intel to make a buck?

Related point:  Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly.  When Vista 
comes out, what is its competition?  Well, it's mostly XP.  Wouldn't it be 
nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great?  Sure.  They knew this day would 
come when they made XP.  Maybe that explains why XP isn't so great.  Same 
for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft.  When you have a 
monopoly, not only is there no incentive to produce a better product, 
there is a disincentive -- it is better to produce a bad product so that 
you can sell upgrades more readily.

Mike


From drue at therub.org  Tue Jan 30 11:34:01 2007
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:34:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301054400.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701292154480.31@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301054400.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20070130173401.GH37321@therub.org>

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 10:56:35AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> Even if I were to use FreeBSD, I doubt that differences in the kernels 
> would mean much to me as a user.

I shouldn't, but I just can't resist responding to this..  

FreeBSD isn't just a different kernel.  It's like this: 

Linux is kernel + apps (mostly GNU). 

FreeBSD has a concept of a base system - so the OS itself isn't just a
kernel, but a kernel, plus the bare bones of a working OS (and very
little if any GNU in base).  In other words, they distinguish between a
base system, and 3rd party applications.  Some things like sendmail and
bind are included in base, but for most applications you install from
the package/ports system (i hear gentoo's package system is quite
similar).  This lends to a very consistent and reliable core OS.

As well, freebsd is very strict about the filesystem hierarchy.  3rd
party applications *never* install their configs to /etc.  They belong
in /usr/local/etc.  This separation, applied to all files and
applications on the system, is one of the best userland reasons to favor
freebsd over linux, imho.  

Dan (flame away..)


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Tue Jan 30 11:49:29 2007
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:49:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1170179369.21348.1172009225@webmail.messagingengine.com>

I think saying that Microsoft is making their products crappy on purpose
is giving them too much credit. When you're working with software that
is so overly complex and bloated, it'd be a miracle if it weren't so
crappy.

A highlight: these system call diagrams.
http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=311


----- Original message -----
From: "Mike Miller" <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
To: "TCLUG List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:30:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")


Obviously, Dell and most other manufacturers have agreements with 
Microsoft.  Do Intel and Microsoft also come up with agreements?  It
could 
work like this:  Microsoft can make their system run slower so that
people 
are motivated to buy new hardware.  Microsoft doesn't have much 
competition, so they don't have a lot of motivation to optimize their
code 
for speed.  Why wouldn't they help Intel to make a buck?

Related point:  Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly.  When Vista 
comes out, what is its competition?  Well, it's mostly XP.  Wouldn't it
be 
nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great?  Sure.  They knew this day would 
come when they made XP.  Maybe that explains why XP isn't so great. 
Same 
for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft.  When you have a 
monopoly, not only is there no incentive to produce a better product, 
there is a disincentive -- it is better to produce a bad product so that 
you can sell upgrades more readily.

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 11:52:26 2007
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:52:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301119340.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301119340.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570701300952q446da338m65f9c3fa3862e01e@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Nate Carlson <tclug at natecarlson.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> > You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system?  Because I was
> > just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly
> > the same price with and without windows.  The one big difference seemed
> > to be that not all of the same options were available depending on
> > whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options
> > (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of
> > processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end...
> > Don't ask me why...)
>
> Yeah, they were identical. They had a pile of promo's that only were only
> applied to the Windows laptop.

Interesting.  When I was shopping there was a "Instant $350 rebate on
lattitude notebooks priced above 1499" (which is valid til tomorrow I
believe).  And I added identical with-windows and without-windows
notebooks to my cart (since the rebate is only taken off when added to
the cart), and the with-windows notebook had a $259 rebate applied in
the cart and the without-windows one had a $350 rebate applied in the
cart.  So the without-windows one came out cheaper only because the
full $350 rebate was applied.  Without the rebate, they would have
been exactly the same price.

-- 
jonner


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Tue Jan 30 11:57:09 2007
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 11:57:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <45BF3268.9190.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

Dell: The land of psychotic technology prices.

>>> On 1/30/2007 at 10:45 AM, in message
<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347 at tungsten.msp.technicality.org>,
<tclug at natecarlson.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
>> One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows
as 
>> well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed
or 
>> not).  I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series 
>> through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any

>> cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can
let 
>> them know that you have no need for windows. 
>>
>> 
>
http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=

> bsd
> 
> I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to
buy 
> it with Windows than without.
> 
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com |
http://www.natecarlson.com |
> |       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981          
 |
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From tclug at natecarlson.com  Tue Jan 30 12:13:34 2007
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:13:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Notebook Windows tax?
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570701300952q446da338m65f9c3fa3862e01e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> 
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org> 
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com> 
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301119340.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300952q446da338m65f9c3fa3862e01e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301213110.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> Interesting.  When I was shopping there was a "Instant $350 rebate on 
> lattitude notebooks priced above 1499" (which is valid til tomorrow I 
> believe).  And I added identical with-windows and without-windows 
> notebooks to my cart (since the rebate is only taken off when added to 
> the cart), and the with-windows notebook had a $259 rebate applied in 
> the cart and the without-windows one had a $350 rebate applied in the 
> cart.  So the without-windows one came out cheaper only because the full 
> $350 rebate was applied.  Without the rebate, they would have been 
> exactly the same price.

They had also discounted the wireless card, the Cingular wireless card, 
and various other parts only on the Windows one..

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From rwh at visi.com  Tue Jan 30 12:46:27 2007
From: rwh at visi.com (rwh)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 12:46:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
> 
>> On 1/30/07, tclug at natecarlson.com <tclug at natecarlson.com> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:
>>>> One other option: you can get a notebook from dell without windows as
>>>> well (it comes with freeDOS but I don't know if it's even installed or
>>>> not).  I believe they only offer this with the 'lattitude' series
>>>> through the "small business" store, and they're not necessarily any
>>>> cheaper than the ones that come with windows, but at least you can let
>>>> them know that you have no need for windows.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/nseries_nb?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
>>> I just picked up a Latitude D820.. it ended up being $600 cheaper to buy
>>> it with Windows than without.
>> You're sure you were comparing exactly the same system?  Because I was 
>> just shopping for a D820 about two days ago and they came out to exactly 
>> the same price with and without windows.  The one big difference seemed 
>> to be that not all of the same options were available depending on 
>> whether you were looking at the with-windows or without-windows options 
>> (for instance, without-windows seemed to offer me more choices of 
>> processor speed on the higher end and less choice on the bottom end... 
>> Don't ask me why...)
> 
> 
> Obviously, Dell and most other manufacturers have agreements with 
> Microsoft.  Do Intel and Microsoft also come up with agreements?  It could 
> work like this:  Microsoft can make their system run slower so that people 
> are motivated to buy new hardware.  Microsoft doesn't have much 
> competition, so they don't have a lot of motivation to optimize their code 
> for speed.  Why wouldn't they help Intel to make a buck?
> 

Microsoft's history was that it was hardware agnostic. They wanted you
to run Windows whether you were using Intel, MIPS or Alpha chips. I
can't see them intentionally favoring one CPU over another, especially
given how quickly CPUs have been changing. I certainly couldn't see
Intel getting tied up in that kind of arrangement.

> Related point:  Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly.  When Vista 
> comes out, what is its competition?  Well, it's mostly XP.  Wouldn't it be 
> nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great?  Sure.  They knew this day would 
> come when they made XP.  Maybe that explains why XP isn't so great.  Same 
> for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft.  When you have a 
> monopoly, not only is there no incentive to produce a better product, 
> there is a disincentive -- it is better to produce a bad product so that 
> you can sell upgrades more readily.
> 

There were a couple of times when they floated the idea of charging for
service packs - I think XP SP1 was one instance. That went nowhere.
They've suggested charging for security updates/software and again it
went nowhere. You also run the risk that new hardware is going to end up
running OS X or some variant of Unix.

I think what is going on is that MS is being buried under a pile of
crappy code, some for backward compatibility, some newly written. They
are so scared of having to compete without the inertia of legacy
applications that they're committed to a path that increases bloat,
complexity and bugs. They'll also sell out their users' security in an
instant if it benefits their business partners, but that's another story :-)

Compare that to Apple who routinely breaks compatibility in both
hardware and software, dump the 68K for PowerPC for Intel; dump Mac OS
for OS X. The technical press wailed about it being a fatal mistake
every time, but they came through fine and now they're running a
relatively clean OS on bleeding edge hardware. They also understand a
lot about how to manage those breaks without pissing everyone off.

MS is screwed. Mac and Linux will keep on chipping away at their OS
market share. As people move to more open document standards the
dominance of Office will start to erode as well. Just look at the Zune
and try not to laugh out loud ... an MP3 player that only a Soviet could
love :-)

--rick





From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 13:19:37 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:19:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Vista Launch?
In-Reply-To: <20070130173401.GH37321@therub.org>
References: <1f663090701291647h501a0e5bw8cb7e4dc5816c7c3@mail.gmail.com>
	<f2ec4fb50701291836v5cfb9dc4w5357940bb6461b2f@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701292154480.31@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200701300236.21081.thecubic@thecubic.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301054400.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130173401.GH37321@therub.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301315580.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Dan Rue wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 10:56:35AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>> Even if I were to use FreeBSD, I doubt that differences in the kernels
>> would mean much to me as a user.
>
> I shouldn't, but I just can't resist responding to this..
>
> FreeBSD isn't just a different kernel.  It's like this:
>
> Linux is kernel + apps (mostly GNU).

Right, but the article was about the code base for the kernels.


> FreeBSD has a concept of a base system - so the OS itself isn't just a 
> kernel, but a kernel, plus the bare bones of a working OS (and very 
> little if any GNU in base).  In other words, they distinguish between a 
> base system, and 3rd party applications.  Some things like sendmail and 
> bind are included in base, but for most applications you install from 
> the package/ports system (i hear gentoo's package system is quite 
> similar).  This lends to a very consistent and reliable core OS.

It is possible to install GNU on FreeBSD kernel and drop all the FreeBSD 
utilities.

http://www.debian.org/ports/kfreebsd-gnu/


> As well, freebsd is very strict about the filesystem hierarchy.  3rd 
> party applications *never* install their configs to /etc.  They belong 
> in /usr/local/etc.  This separation, applied to all files and 
> applications on the system, is one of the best userland reasons to favor 
> freebsd over linux, imho.

Why doesn't Linux do it that way?  They've been adopting standards and I 
think that sounds like a good standard, or at least a good recommendation 
to developers.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 13:22:30 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:22:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <1170179369.21348.1172009225@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>  
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>  
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>  
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>  
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1170179369.21348.1172009225@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301320130.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Isaac Atilano wrote:

> I think saying that Microsoft is making their products crappy on purpose 
> is giving them too much credit. When you're working with software that 
> is so overly complex and bloated, it'd be a miracle if it weren't so 
> crappy.
>
> A highlight: these system call diagrams.
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/threatchaos/?p=311


Let's put it this way:  When your corporation is worth $500 billion, you 
can fix your software.  The reason they don't do it is not that their 
software is too complex and bloated, it's that they don't have a monetary 
incentive.  The incentive system is pushing them away from producing 
higher quality products.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 13:27:41 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 13:27:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, rwh wrote:

> MS is screwed. Mac and Linux will keep on chipping away at their OS 
> market share. As people move to more open document standards the 
> dominance of Office will start to erode as well. Just look at the Zune 
> and try not to laugh out loud ... an MP3 player that only a Soviet could 
> love :-)


I hope you are right, but I have my doubts.  I think Microsoft can compete 
much better than they are right now.  Apple has to be about 20 times as 
good just to keep up - inertia such as it is.  When Microsoft starts to 
feel like it's losing, it will come out with better products.  I believe 
they can do it because they have the money.  They just need to hire the 
right people, focus the money on develompent, and they'll have something.

Mike


From admin at lctn.org  Tue Jan 30 14:55:13 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 14:55:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution
Message-ID: <1282.64.8.148.19.1170190513.squirrel@lctn.org>

We are looking for an open source traffic shaping solution that meets the
following requirements.

no limit on amount of rules created.
easy web interface
shape traffic based on originating Public IP(s)
Hoping for teared administration

The solution would be for a WAN, where each entity has at least one public
IP on the outside interface of their firewall, which nats all local LAN
traffic. I am googling around for some ideas, but am hoping someone
already knows the best solution.

Raymond





-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From sac at cheesecake.org  Tue Jan 30 16:15:00 2007
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:15:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 at 13.27.41 -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, rwh wrote:
> > MS is screwed. Mac and Linux will keep on chipping away at their OS 
> > market share. As people move to more open document standards the 
> > dominance of Office will start to erode as well. Just look at the Zune 
> > and try not to laugh out loud ... an MP3 player that only a Soviet could 
> > love :-)
> 
> I hope you are right, but I have my doubts.  I think Microsoft can compete 
> much better than they are right now.  Apple has to be about 20 times as 
> good just to keep up - inertia such as it is.  When Microsoft starts to 
> feel like it's losing, it will come out with better products.  I believe 
> they can do it because they have the money.  They just need to hire the 
> right people, focus the money on develompent, and they'll have something.

You are ignoring a lot of evidence.  The blogs are filled with info coming
out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that company
has become.  Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon layers of
management.  Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to get from
one end of the company to the other.  These aren't things one fixes just
by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there is even
someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed changes,
but I will not grant that fact.

Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary.  E.g. IBM which was
another `unstoppable monopoly.'  Unfortunately (for the anti-capitalists),
IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, but because
mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and they did
not adapt to this fact.  It's not all about who controls the means of
production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its head.

Also, Karl Marx is wearing no clothes.

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From tj at kewlness.net  Tue Jan 30 16:01:08 2007
From: tj at kewlness.net (T.J. Duchene)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 16:01:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] my 2 cents (was Vista Lauch, Windows Tax, BSD)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1170180003.16619.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1170180003.16619.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <45BFC024.6080404@kewlness.net>

Just my two cents for the discussion...

While I dislike Microsoft's business practices, its mentality of "we are
the sole innovator", and most specifically, its very poor operating
system design, it is here to stay.  We use Windows when it is the best
tool for a particular job, and there is no shame in that.

The sad part of the entire mess is that a lot of people, and indeed the
general public, have the perception that FOSS and Microsoft are bitter
enemies.  We aren't enemies at all, as there is plenty of FOSS software
for the Windows OS.  We simply disagree as to philosophy of licensing
and standardization.  A number of very charasmatic people, like Richard
Stallman and Bruce Perens, have elevated this disagreement to the
stature of a jihad - with Microsoft as the primary target.

Let's be honest, at the very least.  Microsoft erased 50 different
standards for supremely incompatible operating systems in the 80's. 
Microsoft was one of the original signatories to POSIX.  If Microsoft
had never existed, we would live in a very different world today, and
not necessarily a better one.

I think that while a confrontational style of debate is valuable, I do
not believe that it will bring about the change that is so desperately
desired.  I personally believe that if open source is to succeed in
changing the world of software, it must continue on its current path of
solid technical and operational achievement.  In other words, "talk is
cheap".  Wasting precious energy chewing old bones is the sport of the
reporters and the news media.  We have better things to do.  The best
stance for FOSS to take in my opinion, is similar to Ghandi's philosophy
of passive civil disobedience - change through action but not through
confrontation.  We make software, we do it well, and we have the best
licenses based on responsibility to the public.



As for the old BSD versus Linux debate, this is as nonsensical as what
flavor ice cream is best.  BSD comes from a more formal and disciplined
community than Linux.  They have a different way of doing things.  BSD
comes from a more strict engineering background.  Linux is far less
formal, and more accepting of individual contributions.  BSD has the
attitude of "this is more elegant" and the community is less open to new
people.  Linux invites everyone to play in the pool, so to speak.

I read a BSD user describe Linux once.  He said that both approaches
have merit.  He said since Linux is more chaotic than BSD, so Linux
distributions sometimes have problems, but because Linux drives in new
directions faster than BSD, Linux goes to places (programmically
speaking) that BSD hasn't or won't.  This opens new doors for everyone. 

I prefer to think of BSD as Linux's ever serious older brother.  BSD
offers advice, but Linux goes its own way.  In the end, both systems
actually share quite a bit of the same code. 

For myself, I prefer Linux.  I like living on the bleeding edge of code,
and finding new ways of doing things.   If you are more conservative,
then perhaps BSD is for you. 

I find that either FreeBSD or Linux are very solid OS's and perfect for
servers.  The only major difference is that FreeBSD likes to compile
things in on the fly installs, while Linux typically uses the binary
package.  It should be noted though, that those are default behaviors -
either system can do the other.

-- 

T.J.



====================================================
"I believe C++ instills fear in programmers, fear that the 
interaction of some details causes unpredictable results. Its 
unmanageable complexity has spawned more fear-preventing tools 
than any other language, but the solution _should_ have been 
to create and use a language that does not overload the 
whole goddamn human brain with irrelevant details."
-- Erik Naggum

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 17:35:08 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 17:35:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:

> You are ignoring a lot of evidence.  The blogs are filled with info 
> coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that 
> company has become.  Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon 
> layers of management.  Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to 
> get from one end of the company to the other.  These aren't things one 
> fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there 
> is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed 
> changes, but I will not grant that fact.

I hope you are right!


> Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary.  E.g. IBM which was 
> another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the 
> anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, 
> but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and 
> they did not adapt to this fact.  It's not all about who controls the 
> means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its 
> head.

IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see.  In fact, they still sell 
mainframes.  They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer 
design.  They are currently big Linux advocates.  I don't think IBM was 
ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software 
-- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with.  It takes a long 
time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall!


> Also, Karl Marx is wearing no clothes.

I'm not sure what that means, but I understand that you are the Emperor:

> Sidney CAMMERESI
> http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/

Best,
Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 18:02:01 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:02:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] my 2 cents (was Vista Lauch, Windows Tax, BSD)
In-Reply-To: <45BFC024.6080404@kewlness.net>
References: <mailman.1.1170180003.16619.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<45BFC024.6080404@kewlness.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301743330.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, T.J. Duchene wrote:

> Just my two cents for the discussion...
>
> While I dislike Microsoft's business practices, its mentality of "we are 
> the sole innovator", and most specifically, its very poor operating 
> system design, it is here to stay.

Do people believe that Microsoft is innovative?  They really are not 
innovative.  In fact, they are one of the least innovative software 
companies I can think of.  Most of their better ideas come from outside 
the company, but they don't have much that looks original to me.


> We use Windows when it is the best tool for a particular job, and there 
> is no shame in that.

Maybe shame isn't the right word, but there must be some disappointment in 
finding out that you don't have a better option.


> The sad part of the entire mess is that a lot of people, and indeed the 
> general public, have the perception that FOSS and Microsoft are bitter 
> enemies.  We aren't enemies at all, as there is plenty of FOSS software 
> for the Windows OS.  We simply disagree as to philosophy of licensing 
> and standardization.  A number of very charasmatic people, like Richard 
> Stallman and Bruce Perens, have elevated this disagreement to the 
> stature of a jihad - with Microsoft as the primary target.

There is good reason to be concerned about Microsoft.  For example, have 
you read this?:

A Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html


> Let's be honest, at the very least.  Microsoft erased 50 different 
> standards for supremely incompatible operating systems in the 80's. 
> Microsoft was one of the original signatories to POSIX.  If Microsoft 
> had never existed, we would live in a very different world today, and 
> not necessarily a better one.

Not *necessarily* a better one, but *probably* a better one.


> I think that while a confrontational style of debate is valuable, I do 
> not believe that it will bring about the change that is so desperately 
> desired.  I personally believe that if open source is to succeed in 
> changing the world of software, it must continue on its current path of 
> solid technical and operational achievement.  In other words, "talk is 
> cheap".  Wasting precious energy chewing old bones is the sport of the 
> reporters and the news media.  We have better things to do.  The best 
> stance for FOSS to take in my opinion, is similar to Ghandi's philosophy 
> of passive civil disobedience - change through action but not through 
> confrontation.  We make software, we do it well, and we have the best 
> licenses based on responsibility to the public.

Complaining about Microsoft is a good way to get attention for the 
important issue of software licensing.  We need all the attention we can 
get.  That's why Stallman does things like this:

http://badvista.fsf.org/


> I find that either FreeBSD or Linux are very solid OS's and perfect for 
> servers.

Sure.  I mostly use Linux because it's easy to access it.  All of our 
newer supercomputers are running it.  All the software I find will compile 
on Linux with gcc (maybe it will compile on FreeBSD, but I haven't tried 
it).  Some software comes in binaries for Linux but not for FreeBSD.  For 
better or worse, Linux has become the de facto standard OS in scientific 
computing, at least in my fields (mostly stats and genetics).  I really 
can't see FreeBSD overtaking Linux, so I'm going to stick with Linux.

I have nothing really against FreeBSD, but I do think the GPL is better 
than the Berkeley license because the GPL does not allow binary-only 
distributions that hijack the code into being proprietary (though free, 
but only as in beer).

Mike


From rwh at visi.com  Tue Jan 30 18:17:18 2007
From: rwh at visi.com (rwh)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:17:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
> 
>> You are ignoring a lot of evidence.  The blogs are filled with info 
>> coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that 
>> company has become.  Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon 
>> layers of management.  Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to 
>> get from one end of the company to the other.  These aren't things one 
>> fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there 
>> is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed 
>> changes, but I will not grant that fact.
> 
> I hope you are right!
> 
> 
>> Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary.  E.g. IBM which was 
>> another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the 
>> anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, 
>> but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and 
>> they did not adapt to this fact.  It's not all about who controls the 
>> means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its 
>> head.
> 
> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see.  In fact, they still sell 
> mainframes.  They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer 
> design.  They are currently big Linux advocates.  I don't think IBM was 
> ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software 
> -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with.  It takes a long 
> time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall!
> 
> 

Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand,
Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory.
HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to
compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc.
You'll probably notice  that none of the mainframe guys are around,
except UniSys and  I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or
not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible.

IBM was successfully sued by CDC for anti-trust in the late 60's, but by
the late 80's they were fading fast. They lost $16B US in 1992, laid off
45,000 people in '92 and another 35,000 in '93. Sort of like GM or Ford
today.

Lew Gerstner came in 1993 and moved them from being primarily a
hardware/software shop to a focus on services. Linux fits into that
model fairly well because it doesn't lock people into a proprietary
model - the way IBM use to do business.

MS needs an IBM moment and someone with a completely new vision to
replace Balmer. I can't think of anything new from MS since NT 3.51 -
OK, there is the XBox, but they've been milking the NT code base for a
long time.

--rick


From jack at jacku.com  Tue Jan 30 18:59:53 2007
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 18:59:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
Message-ID: <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>

rwh wrote:
> Mike Miller wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> You are ignoring a lot of evidence.  The blogs are filled with info 
>>> coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that 
>>> company has become.  Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon 
>>> layers of management.  Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to 
>>> get from one end of the company to the other.  These aren't things one 
>>> fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there 
>>> is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed 
>>> changes, but I will not grant that fact.
>>>       
>> I hope you are right!
>>
>>
>>     
>>> Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary.  E.g. IBM which was 
>>> another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the 
>>> anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, 
>>> but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and 
>>> they did not adapt to this fact.  It's not all about who controls the 
>>> means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its 
>>> head.
>>>       
>> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see.  In fact, they still sell 
>> mainframes.  They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer 
>> design.  They are currently big Linux advocates.  I don't think IBM was 
>> ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software 
>> -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with.  It takes a long 
>> time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall!
>>
>>
>>     
>
> Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand,
> Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory.
> HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to
> compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc.
> You'll probably notice  that none of the mainframe guys are around,
> except UniSys and  I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or
> not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible.
>
> IBM was successfully sued by CDC for anti-trust in the late 60's, but by
> the late 80's they were fading fast. They lost $16B US in 1992, laid off
> 45,000 people in '92 and another 35,000 in '93. Sort of like GM or Ford
> today.
>
> Lew Gerstner came in 1993 and moved them from being primarily a
> hardware/software shop to a focus on services. Linux fits into that
> model fairly well because it doesn't lock people into a proprietary
> model - the way IBM use to do business.
>
> MS needs an IBM moment and someone with a completely new vision to
> replace Balmer. I can't think of anything new from MS since NT 3.51 -
> OK, there is the XBox, but they've been milking the NT code base for a
> long time.
>
> --rick
>
>
>   
The man on the inside right now is Ray Ozzie. Whether he can shift
Microsoft's direction is still to be seen. He's full impact will
probably only be felt when Gates "retires" to being only the Chairman
and Ozzie reports directly to Ballmer.  According to this
(http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-6084396.html) article from CNet, Craig
Mundie is in the mix as well. But Ozzie has the resume that includes
Lotus Notes and Groove on it and appears to be the "idea" man for the
future.

One IBM competitor everybody forgot was Amdahl. Remember it was Gene
Amdahl that coined the term FUD in reference to IBM. With respect to
UniSys they've done what IBM's done, they've become primarily a services
company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed names, merged or
folded since then.


-- 
--------------------
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com



From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 19:23:41 2007
From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (Benjamin Gramlich)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:23:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms
In-Reply-To: <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
	<45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
Message-ID: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>

Hey all,

I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN 
dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part 
of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for 
firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use 
to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck 
there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance.

Benjamin


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Jan 30 19:27:36 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:27:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301924290.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, rwh wrote:

> Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand, 
> Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory. 
> HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to 
> compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc. 
> You'll probably notice that none of the mainframe guys are around, 
> except UniSys and I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or 
> not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible.


Thanks to everyone for all the historical info.  I should point out that 
IBM does till make mainframes and their vendor lock-in system is still 
working for them.  Check out this article (NY Times, 8 May 2006):

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/08/technology/08ibm.html?ex=1304740800&en=d98e03e56e9faa78&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

I think you can see that, but if you can't, let me know.

Mike


From trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com  Tue Jan 30 20:53:35 2007
From: trammell+tclug at el-swifto.com (John J. Trammell)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:53:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20070131025335.GA13765@mail.el-swifto.com>

On Tue, Jan 30, 2007 at 11:30:49AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> Related point:  Microsoft is a monopoly, or near monopoly.  When Vista
> comes out, what is its competition?  Well, it's mostly XP.  Wouldn't
> it be nice for Vista if XP wasn't so great?  Sure.  They knew this day
> would come when they made XP.  Maybe that explains why XP isn't so
> great.  Same for Vista and everything else produced by Microsoft.

I haven't seen Vista yet, so I can't say one way or another.  But I
*have* seen the hardware requirements for Vista, and I just love the
idea of everyone dumping their 2 GHz P4's with a mere 1 GB RAM since
they're too slow for Vista.  In a year or so the market should be
flooded with cheap boxen more than suitable for even the fattest *nixen.

-- 
trammell at el-swifto.com  9EC7 BC6D E688 A184 9F58  FD4C 2C12 CC14 8ABA 36F5
Twin Cities Linux Users Group (TCLUG)      Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota


From bhartm at visi.com  Tue Jan 30 21:47:23 2007
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:47:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
	<45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
Message-ID: <45C0114B.90101@visi.com>

>
> ...they've become primarily a services
> company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed names, merged or
> folded since then.
Yes, yes and not yet.  Syntegra is now under BT.  Web hosting and email 
processing for very large orgs.

Jack Ungerleider wrote:
> rwh wrote:
>   
>> Mike Miller wrote:
>>   
>>     
>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> You are ignoring a lot of evidence.  The blogs are filled with info 
>>>> coming out of Microsoft about how much of a lumbering behemoth that 
>>>> company has become.  Engineers buried under layers upon layers upon 
>>>> layers of management.  Source code changes can take 3-6 months just to 
>>>> get from one end of the company to the other.  These aren't things one 
>>>> fixes just by throwing money at the problem, and that grants that there 
>>>> is even someone at the company with vision enough to make the needed 
>>>> changes, but I will not grant that fact.
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> I hope you are right!
>>>
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>>>> Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary.  E.g. IBM which was 
>>>> another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the 
>>>> anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, 
>>>> but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and 
>>>> they did not adapt to this fact.  It's not all about who controls the 
>>>> means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its 
>>>> head.
>>>>       
>>>>         
>>> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see.  In fact, they still sell 
>>> mainframes.  They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer 
>>> design.  They are currently big Linux advocates.  I don't think IBM was 
>>> ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software 
>>> -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with.  It takes a long 
>>> time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall!
>>>
>>>
>>>     
>>>       
>> Just to be pedantic, IBMs competitors were Univac, Sperry-Rand,
>> Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory.
>> HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to
>> compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc.
>> You'll probably notice  that none of the mainframe guys are around,
>> except UniSys and  I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or
>> not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible.
>>
>> IBM was successfully sued by CDC for anti-trust in the late 60's, but by
>> the late 80's they were fading fast. They lost $16B US in 1992, laid off
>> 45,000 people in '92 and another 35,000 in '93. Sort of like GM or Ford
>> today.
>>
>> Lew Gerstner came in 1993 and moved them from being primarily a
>> hardware/software shop to a focus on services. Linux fits into that
>> model fairly well because it doesn't lock people into a proprietary
>> model - the way IBM use to do business.
>>
>> MS needs an IBM moment and someone with a completely new vision to
>> replace Balmer. I can't think of anything new from MS since NT 3.51 -
>> OK, there is the XBox, but they've been milking the NT code base for a
>> long time.
>>
>> --rick
>>
>>
>>   
>>     
> The man on the inside right now is Ray Ozzie. Whether he can shift
> Microsoft's direction is still to be seen. He's full impact will
> probably only be felt when Gates "retires" to being only the Chairman
> and Ozzie reports directly to Ballmer.  According to this
> (http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-6084396.html) article from CNet, Craig
> Mundie is in the mix as well. But Ozzie has the resume that includes
> Lotus Notes and Groove on it and appears to be the "idea" man for the
> future.
>
> One IBM competitor everybody forgot was Amdahl. Remember it was Gene
> Amdahl that coined the term FUD in reference to IBM. With respect to
> UniSys they've done what IBM's done, they've become primarily a services
> company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed names, merged or
> folded since then.
>
>
>   


From brockn at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 20:59:16 2007
From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 20:59:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms
In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <741dcbb80701301859u2ae8e409s4eba7907b088988a@mail.gmail.com>

I print mine out.

Brock

On 1/30/07, Benjamin Gramlich <benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN
> dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part
> of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for
> firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use
> to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck
> there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance.
>
> Benjamin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
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From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Tue Jan 30 15:04:57 2007
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:04:57 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms
In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20070130210457.1d13532a@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 19:23:41 -0600
Benjamin Gramlich <benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey all,
> 
> I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the
> MN dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the
> forms. Part of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no
> Adobe plugin for firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know
> of a program I can use to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus,
> GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck there. Any ideas would be great.
> Thanks in advance.

Maybe foxit?  http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/desklinux/

Josh


From bhartm at visi.com  Tue Jan 30 22:03:11 2007
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:03:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms
In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>	<45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45C014FF.8010703@visi.com>


Not to be too snarky in the middle of the conversation of the day, but
This sounds like a job for Windows!  I know.  bad answer.   But that's 
how I do it.  Every year.
If you need a winbox, I can hook you up. 

Benjamin Gramlich wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN 
> dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part 
> of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for 
> firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use 
> to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck 
> there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance.
>
> Benjamin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Tue Jan 30 21:24:55 2007
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (David Carlson)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:24:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms
In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7083.163.231.6.67.1170213895.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net>

You could try installing QEMU and running Acrobat Reader with QEMU
emulation.  I was able to get PPC vim to work on x86 with about 10 minutes
effort - it shouldn't be that hard the other way around.  It is a pain,
though, as you have to copy over the target arch libraries (copying /lib
/usr/lib to underneath /usr/qemu-i386 from x86 Ubuntu should suffice).

-Dave

> Hey all,
>
> I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN
> dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part
> of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for
> firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use
> to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck
> there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance.
>
> Benjamin
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Dave Carlson <thecubic at thecubic.net>


From bhartm at visi.com  Tue Jan 30 21:31:06 2007
From: bhartm at visi.com (Bob Hartmann)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 21:31:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast clock
In-Reply-To: <45C014FF.8010703@visi.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>	<45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
	<45C014FF.8010703@visi.com>
Message-ID: <45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com>


why does my clock run so fast?  This is the second mobo to do this.  
Same AMD 1700+, btw.  I guess that's the culprit.  I could cron it, I 
know.   I just do this:
alias date='sudo /etc/init.d/ntpdate restart;date'
and then I forget to run date. 
OK, I'm back from the future.



From sac at cheesecake.org  Tue Jan 30 22:04:10 2007
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:04:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20070131040410.GA12489@cheesecake.org>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 at 17.35.08 -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:
> >Never mind the historical evidence to the contrary.  E.g. IBM which was 
> >another `unstoppable monopoly.' Unfortunately (for the 
> >anti-capitalists), IBM fell from dominance not because of trustbusting, 
> >but because mainframes were rendered obsolete by desktop computing, and 
> >they did not adapt to this fact.  It's not all about who controls the 
> >means of production if one has the insight to turn an industry on its 
> >head.
> 
> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see.  In fact, they still sell 

Are you serious?  How many IBM computers are in your organisation?

> mainframes.  They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop computer 
> design.  They are currently big Linux advocates.  I don't think IBM was 
> ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in desktop OS software 

`Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'?

> -- they had HP, DEC, Wang, Cray, etc. to compete with.  It takes a long 
> time for a "lumbering behemoth" to fall!

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From sac at cheesecake.org  Tue Jan 30 22:20:20 2007
From: sac at cheesecake.org (Sidney Cammeresi)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 22:20:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
Message-ID: <20070131042020.GB12489@cheesecake.org>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007 at 18.17.18 -0600, rwh wrote:
> Burroughs, GE, CDC, Honeywell and a couple others that escape my memory.
> HP, DEC, DG, etc. were in the mini-computer market where they got to
> compete with the IBM System 3x stuff and eventually Sun, SGI, etc.
> You'll probably notice  that none of the mainframe guys are around,
> except UniSys and  I couldn't say whether they still make a mainframe or
> not - they were big with utilities in the 60's so its possible.

Oh yeah man, Unisys still sells 36-bit machines, but the platform is
called Clearpath IX now.

-- 
Sidney CAMMERESI
http://www.cheesecake.org/sac/


From erikerik at gmail.com  Tue Jan 30 23:07:33 2007
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2007 23:07:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast clock
In-Reply-To: <45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com> <45C014FF.8010703@visi.com>
	<45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f0701302107g53dc9fdfp330deb5f32135c68@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Bob Hartmann <bhartm at visi.com> wrote:
>
> why does my clock run so fast?  This is the second mobo to do this.
> Same AMD 1700+, btw.  I guess that's the culprit.  I could cron it, I
> know.   I just do this:
> alias date='sudo /etc/init.d/ntpdate restart;date'
> and then I forget to run date.
> OK, I'm back from the future.

Why don't you just run ntpd?  That'll constantly take care of keeping
your clock in sync and you'll be able to forget about it.  After GNU
screen, ntpd is always the first thing I install and get running on
new server builds.

-Erik


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jan 31 01:11:48 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 01:11:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <20070131040410.GA12489@cheesecake.org>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070131040410.GA12489@cheesecake.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701310106070.15384@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Jan 2007, Sidney Cammeresi wrote:

>> IBM hasn't been stopped as far as I can see.  In fact, they still sell
>
> Are you serious?  How many IBM computers are in your organisation?

We recently got rid of the IBM SP supercomputer that ran AIX.  We have a 
Netfinity cluster, Power4 and now we have a BladeCenter:

http://www.msi.umn.edu/

I don't work at MSI but I use their computers all the time.


>> mainframes.  They were first to develop a widely-adopted desktop 
>> computer design.  They are currently big Linux advocates.  I don't 
>> think IBM was ever as dominant in computing as Microsoft has been in 
>> desktop OS software
>
> `Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM'?


Maybe you read the NY Times article about IBM's continuing mainframe 
business.  That surprised me too.

That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly.  Microsoft has 90% 
of the desktop OS market worldwide.  People say they are dying, but how 
long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market?  If a 
company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't call them 
dead.  I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think Microsoft is very 
likely to outlive me.

Mike


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Jan 31 05:35:12 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 05:35:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution
In-Reply-To: <5daafeb10701302101k46941ed9i692354f645f0bb80@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5daafeb10701302101k46941ed9i692354f645f0bb80@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <57308.204.212.34.10.1170243312.squirrel@lctn.org>

> Have you looked at ipcop http://www.ipcop.org/ I use it at home here.I
don't
> use the traffic shaping part of it, but it is available.  There's alot
pf
> plug ins for it and one of them might do what you want.

That works great for a local LAN, but we need a solution for a WAN. We
have 18 school districts. All have their own routers and firewall, but
have to pass through our gateway for Internet. We are looking at a "for
cost" solution, but it has some surprising limitations.




-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 09:18:39 2007
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:18:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms
In-Reply-To: <7083.163.231.6.67.1170213895.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>	<ee2fcb570701300749l65cdfb0fu76baa631b2a461dc@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.LNX.4.63.0701301045030.7347@tungsten.msp.technicality.org>	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com>
	<45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
	<7083.163.231.6.67.1170213895.squirrel@castor.thecubic.net>
Message-ID: <45C0B34F.3050009@gmail.com>

David Carlson wrote:
> You could try installing QEMU and running Acrobat Reader with QEMU
> emulation.  I was able to get PPC vim to work on x86 with about 10 minutes
> effort - it shouldn't be that hard the other way around.  It is a pain,
> though, as you have to copy over the target arch libraries (copying /lib
> /usr/lib to underneath /usr/qemu-i386 from x86 Ubuntu should suffice).
> 
> -Dave
> 

Plus, even if you could get a recent version Acrobat Reader to run, you 
would probably still be hosed, because Acrobat won't let you _save_ the 
data that you typed into the form - because this is Adobe's latest 
moneymaking scam.

However, if you find and install version 5 or older of Acrobat reader - 
then - while it will complain that the pdf contains new things it 
doesn't know how to display - in my experience, it works just fine - and 
it will let you save the data that you type into the form.  This holds 
for windows or linux, however you end up doing it.

Dan

-- 
****************************
Daniel Armbrust
Biomedical Informatics
Mayo Clinic Rochester
daniel.armbrust(at)mayo.edu
http://informatics.mayo.edu/


From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 09:41:55 2007
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 09:41:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] PDF fill-in forms
In-Reply-To: <45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net>
	<ee2fcb570701300917y6ada7d7cndcaf1068052592ef@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301124050.5039@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BF9283.3060509@visi.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301324510.14876@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20070130221500.GA11138@cheesecake.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701301728410.29554@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<45BFE00E.4050000@visi.com> <45BFEA09.1030206@jacku.com>
	<45BFEF9D.8070905@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570701310741m3aaa4ee3i1b2530f4131ce2a5@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/30/07, Benjamin Gramlich <benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm doing my taxes and I've downloaded the M1 fill in form from the MN
> dept. of revenue. But I can't find a program to fill in the forms. Part
> of the problem is I'm using PPC Ubuntu so there is no Adobe plugin for
> firefox as there is on the x86. Does anyone know of a program I can use
> to fill the forms in? I've tried Scribus, GIMP, and OpenOffice. No luck
> there. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance.
>
> Benjamin
>

I know this isn't a very good answer, since it is still not available
in a released version, but there was a google summer-of-code project
to develop this functionality for evince (the GNOME PDF viewer).  I
don't know how well it works, but if you're desperate, you could try
it out.  Look here: http://live.gnome.org/Evince/Forms.

I also just found this on a quick search.  I've never used it, but you
might try it.  It appears to be built on top of eclipse.  It's not
Open-source, but it appears to be free for private
use:http://www.cabaret-solutions.com/en/

-- 
jonner


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Jan 31 10:12:57 2007
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 10:12:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast clock
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f0701302107g53dc9fdfp330deb5f32135c68@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45BF56CA.3090803@poetworld.net> <45C00D7A.4030900@visi.com>
	<fc40260f0701302107g53dc9fdfp330deb5f32135c68@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200701311012.57783.jus@krytosvirus.com>

On Tuesday 30 January 2007 23:07, Erik Anderson wrote:
> On 1/30/07, Bob Hartmann <bhartm at visi.com> wrote:
> > why does my clock run so fast?  This is the second mobo to do this.
> > Same AMD 1700+, btw.  I guess that's the culprit.  I could cron it, I
> > know.   I just do this:
> > alias date='sudo /etc/init.d/ntpdate restart;date'
> > and then I forget to run date.
> > OK, I'm back from the future.
>
> Why don't you just run ntpd?  That'll constantly take care of keeping
> your clock in sync and you'll be able to forget about it.  After GNU
> screen, ntpd is always the first thing I install and get running on
> new server builds.
>
> -Erik

http://www.openntpd.org/


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Wed Jan 31 11:00:41 2007
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:00:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200701311700.l0VH0f315872@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Cisco 678 DSL modem

Cisco 678 DSL modem

In working condition.  Comes with original Cisco power supply and manual.

$50 OBO

Seller Email address: tclug dot org at markcourtney dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 31 11:05:16 2007
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:05:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <45C0114B.90101@visi.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEJICGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Bob Hartmann
> >
> > ...they've become primarily a services
> > company. So had CDC but I think they've either changed
> names, merged or
> > folded since then.
> Yes, yes and not yet.  Syntegra is now under BT.  Web hosting
> and email
> processing for very large orgs.
>

There are several other names still around.  CDC spun off and divested
all sorts of stuff, but I think there is at least one piece still part
of the corporate lineage...  something starting with a C... Ceridian?
The Polar and Cypress semiconductor fabs were onec part of CDC, but spun
off long ago.  Our local General Dynamics group is another.  Nearly all
of the buidings East of MOA were originally built by CDC for various
purposes.


Chuck




From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 31 11:13:28 2007
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:13:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701310106070.15384@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEJICGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:12 AM
>
>
> That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly.
> Microsoft has 90%
> of the desktop OS market worldwide.  People say they are
> dying, but how
> long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market?  If a
> company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't
> call them
> dead.  I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think
> Microsoft is very
> likely to outlive me.
>

Something I saw claimed that SUSE has over 50% of the desktop share in
Europe and the percentage is growing. Might only be corporate share.


Chuck




From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Jan 31 11:29:42 2007
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:29:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution
In-Reply-To: <57308.204.212.34.10.1170243312.squirrel@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEJICGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of admin at lctn.org
> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 5:35 AM
>
> > Have you looked at ipcop http://www.ipcop.org/ I use it at
> home here.I
> don't
> > use the traffic shaping part of it, but it is available.
> There's alot
> pf
> > plug ins for it and one of them might do what you want.
>
> That works great for a local LAN, but we need a solution for a WAN. We
> have 18 school districts. All have their own routers and firewall, but
> have to pass through our gateway for Internet. We are looking
> at a "for
> cost" solution, but it has some surprising limitations.

There's a package around for hotspots that supposedly has the feature.
It's a firmware replacement for the WiFi Router.  Compatible with
Linksys and other routers.  Look into DD-WRT.  It has some "throttling"
strategy options.


Chuck




From sos at zjod.net  Wed Jan 31 11:48:00 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:48:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEJICGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net>

Chuck Cole wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:12 AM
> >
> >
> > That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly.
> > Microsoft has 90%
> > of the desktop OS market worldwide.  People say they are
> > dying, but how
> > long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market?  If a
> > company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't
> > call them
> > dead.  I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think
> > Microsoft is very
> > likely to outlive me.
> >
> 
> Something I saw claimed that SUSE has over 50% of the desktop share in
> Europe and the percentage is growing. Might only be corporate share.
> 
> 

Probably more like "50% of the _Linux_ market" in Europe...

OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006:

   > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are:
   > 
   > 	1.  	Windows XP  		86.80%
   > 	2. 	Windows 2000 		6.09%
   > 	3. 	Windows 98 		2.68%
   > 	4. 	Macintosh 		2.32%
   > 	5. 	Windows ME 		1.09%
   > 	6. 	Linux 			0.36%
   > 	7. 	Windows NT 		0.24%
   > 	8. 	Macintosh Power PC 	0.15%

...

   > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent
   > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors
   > of Internet users arrived at sites that are
   > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the
   > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned
   > in the research are averages and all measurements
   > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is
   > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided
   > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day.

source: http://www.onestat.com/html/aboutus_pressbox46-operating-systems-market-share.html

I'd argue that the methodology used would bias the results toward desktops
and away from servers.  Further, use of proxies behind firewalls would
tend to bias the results as well, as would "normalized timezones" and/or
reducing the sample to 20K visitors per country.  So take these numbers
with a grain of salt.

-S


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jan 31 11:56:48 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 11:56:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEJICGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEJICGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311152470.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Chuck Cole wrote:

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 1:12 AM
>>
>>
>> That's all I'm saying - these giants die very slowly. Microsoft has 90% 
>> of the desktop OS market worldwide.  People say they are dying, but how 
>> long will it take to get them down to 10% of the world market?  If a 
>> company has 10% of the desktops in the world, I sure wouldn't call them 
>> dead.  I hope that I live another 50 years, but I think Microsoft is 
>> very likely to outlive me.
>>
>
> Something I saw claimed that SUSE has over 50% of the desktop share in 
> Europe and the percentage is growing. Might only be corporate share.


That would be awesome.  Let me know if you find a reference.  I found 
this, but I think it only applies to the US:

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2

Windows ME has more than twice the market share of Linux, and Windows 98 
has about five times the market share of Linux.  So maybe in a year or two 
Linux will defeat Windows ME and we can have a little party to celebrate! 
;-)

In he month before Vista was released, it already had almost have the 
market share of Linux, according to netapplications.com.  Windows OSs have 
about 95.4% of the total.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jan 31 12:06:02 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:06:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net>
References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311204170.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote:

> OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006:
>
>   > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are:
>   >
>   > 	1.  	Windows XP  		86.80%
>   > 	2. 	Windows 2000 		6.09%
>   > 	3. 	Windows 98 		2.68%
>   > 	4. 	Macintosh 		2.32%
>   > 	5. 	Windows ME 		1.09%
>   > 	6. 	Linux 			0.36%
>   > 	7. 	Windows NT 		0.24%
>   > 	8. 	Macintosh Power PC 	0.15%
>
> ...
>
>   > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent
>   > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors
>   > of Internet users arrived at sites that are
>   > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the
>   > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned
>   > in the research are averages and all measurements
>   > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is
>   > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided
>   > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day.


Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such?  I don't know 
why a machine would give it's OS to a web site!  It seems like a bad idea, 
so maybe Linux users avoid it.

Linux definitely has more market share on the server, as you suggested.

Mike


From jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com  Wed Jan 31 12:49:57 2007
From: jonathon.jongsma at gmail.com (Jonathon Jongsma)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:49:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311204170.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311204170.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <ee2fcb570701311049j710116at770c71040e07ffac@mail.gmail.com>

On 1/31/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such?  I don't know
> why a machine would give it's OS to a web site!  It seems like a bad idea,
> so maybe Linux users avoid it.

Web browsers generally identify their OS to sites they browse via the
user agent string.  see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_agent#Example_user-agent_strings.
If you use firefox, you can see what your browser is reporting itself
as in the help>about box.
I doubt that user-agent spoofing or hiding has much of an impact on statistics.
-- 
jonner


From jack at jacku.com  Wed Jan 31 12:51:25 2007
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 12:51:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311204170.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311204170.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <19281.70.59.124.241.1170269485.squirrel@mail.highspeedrails.com>


> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote:
>
>> OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006:
>>
>>   > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are:
>>   >
>>   > 	1.  	Windows XP  		86.80%
>>   > 	2. 	Windows 2000 		6.09%
>>   > 	3. 	Windows 98 		2.68%
>>   > 	4. 	Macintosh 		2.32%
>>   > 	5. 	Windows ME 		1.09%
>>   > 	6. 	Linux 			0.36%
>>   > 	7. 	Windows NT 		0.24%
>>   > 	8. 	Macintosh Power PC 	0.15%
>>
>> ...
>>
>>   > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent
>>   > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors
>>   > of Internet users arrived at sites that are
>>   > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the
>>   > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned
>>   > in the research are averages and all measurements
>>   > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is
>>   > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided
>>   > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day.
>
>
> Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such?  I don't know
> why a machine would give it's OS to a web site!  It seems like a bad idea,
> so maybe Linux users avoid it.
>
> Linux definitely has more market share on the server, as you suggested.
>

It would part of the HTTP_USER_AGENT value, which is a standard CGI
environment variable. Its included as part of the HTTP REQUEST data. Do a
Google search on "browser identification" there are several sites on the
web that will feed the information back to you.

-- 
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jan 31 13:03:23 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 13:03:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <ee2fcb570701311049j710116at770c71040e07ffac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200701311748.l0VHm0Ww027372@zjod.net> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311204170.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<ee2fcb570701311049j710116at770c71040e07ffac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311258090.28293@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Jonathon Jongsma wrote:

> On 1/31/07, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>> Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such?  I don't know
>> why a machine would give it's OS to a web site!  It seems like a bad idea,
>> so maybe Linux users avoid it.
>
> Web browsers generally identify their OS to sites they browse via the
> user agent string.  see
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_agent#Example_user-agent_strings.
> If you use firefox, you can see what your browser is reporting itself
> as in the help>about box.
> I doubt that user-agent spoofing or hiding has much of an impact on 
> statistics.


Thanks.  And thanks to everyone else who filled me in on this point.

I do lots of Linux computing myself, but almost all of it is done via ssh 
or vnc from a Windows machine.  My web browsing is done 99+% from a 
Windows machine.  It has been convenient to work this way, but the latest 
release of Windows is not looking so appealing to me.  It does seem like 
a good time to try Linux on the desktop again.

I have used Linux on desktop a few times but it never really took. 
Probably part of my problem is that I don't make it my primary computer -- 
it's either a second OS or it's a second (and less powerful) computer. 
Maybe something like the next release of Ubuntu will be enough to get me 
to make the leap.  It is definitely a goal of mine to dump Windows 
completely.

Mike


From sos at zjod.net  Wed Jan 31 14:49:25 2007
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 14:49:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <19281.70.59.124.241.1170269485.squirrel@mail.highspeedrails.com>
Message-ID: <200701312049.l0VKnPQo010981@zjod.net>

Jack Ungerleider wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote:
> >
> >> OS rankings published by OneStat.com on 14Aug2006:
> >>
> >>   > The 10 most popular operating systems in the world on the web are:
> >>   >
> >>   > 	1.  	Windows XP  		86.80%
> >>   > 	2. 	Windows 2000 		6.09%
> >>   > 	3. 	Windows 98 		2.68%
> >>   > 	4. 	Macintosh 		2.32%
> >>   > 	5. 	Windows ME 		1.09%
> >>   > 	6. 	Linux 			0.36%
> >>   > 	7. 	Windows NT 		0.24%
> >>   > 	8. 	Macintosh Power PC 	0.15%
> >>
> >> ...
> >>
> >>   > Methodology: A global usage share of xx percent
> >>   > for OS Y means that xx percent of the visitors
> >>   > of Internet users arrived at sites that are
> >>   > using one of OneStat.com's services by using the
> >>   > particular number of OS Y. All numbers mentioned
> >>   > in the research are averages and all measurements
> >>   > are normalised to the GMT timezone. Research is
> >>   > based on a sample of 2 million visitors divided
> >>   > into 20,000 visitors of 100 countries each day.
> >
> >
> > Is it possible that Linux machines don't identify as such?  I don't know
> > why a machine would give it's OS to a web site!  It seems like a bad idea,
> > so maybe Linux users avoid it.
> >
> > Linux definitely has more market share on the server, as you suggested.
> >
> 
> It would part of the HTTP_USER_AGENT value, which is a standard CGI
> environment variable. Its included as part of the HTTP REQUEST data. Do a
> Google search on "browser identification" there are several sites on the
> web that will feed the information back to you.
> 

I concur, it's probably done by looking a web browser HTTP_USER_AGENT
strings.


However, if you look at who _serves_ the pages instead of who _reads_
'em, it's quite a different story:

   >                         Top Developers
   >
   > Developer  December 2006   Percent January 2007    Percent  %_Change
   > Apache     63819607        60.64   64312083        60.17    -0.47
   > Microsoft  32277976        30.67   32898421        30.78     0.11
   > Sun         1763847         1.68    1749026         1.64    -0.04
   > Zeus        635673          0.60     551767         0.52    -0.08

Source: http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html


Note that the Security Space "Research Reports" section reports slightly
different statistics:

   > January 1st, 2007
   >
   > Across All Domains
   >
   > Market Share Change (Total servers: 21,566,239)
   > 
   > SERVER     DEC. COUNT      DEC %   NOV COUNT       NOV %   CHANGE
   > Apache     15,785,782      73.20%  15,645,600      73.28%  -0.08%
   > Microsoft   4,383,008      20.32%   4,369,859      20.47%  -0.15%
   > Zeus          122,967       0.57%     132,276       0.62%  -0.05%
   > WebSTAR        97,982       0.45%      86,885       0.41%  +0.04%
   > Netscape       71,532       0.33%      70,557       0.33%  +0.00%
   > WebSite        10,579       0.05%      10,833       0.05%  +0.00%
   > Other       1,094,389       5.07%   1,034,155       4.84%  +0.23%

Source: http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/200612/index.html

Methodology in both of these surveys seems to be web-crawlers and/or
HEAD requests.


So, Apache has roughly 60-70% of the market, at least twice that of
Microsoft.  How much of the Apache market runs what platform is tougher
to find out (read: I'm still looking).


BTW: http://www.securityspace.com has some interesting surveys, including
one on mail servers showing sendmail with 32% of the market, Microsoft
with 21% and the rest spread among other mail servers.

-S


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jan 31 15:05:56 2007
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:05:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wintel conspiracy? (was "Notebook Windows tax?")
In-Reply-To: <200701312049.l0VKnPQo010981@zjod.net>
References: <200701312049.l0VKnPQo010981@zjod.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0701311504100.21473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007, Steve Siegfried wrote:

> How much of the Apache market runs what platform is tougher to find out 
> (read: I'm still looking).


Right, and I think that's where you'll have a lot of blocking going on. 
Many admins don't want their servers to report their OS.  They might have 
to resort to questionnaires.

Mike


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Jan 31 15:21:41 2007
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:21:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] traffic shaping solution
In-Reply-To: <914f813c0701311304r69f2322bn4376bc85508fc167@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1282.64.8.148.19.1170190513.squirrel@lctn.org><914f813c0701311304r69f2322bn4376bc85508fc167@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2606.64.8.148.19.1170278501.squirrel@lctn.org>

> Are your routers QoS-capable? If so, this may provide the
> functionality you need. Not sure about web interface, and the "easy"
>requirement may rule out every possible solution.


We have a number of different style routers that might fit the bill, but
if we do it that way, I definitely am elected for setting up, and
maintaining the QOS. We were dreaming of an interface that most of our
tech coordinators could handle:)

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