From beck0778 at umn.edu  Tue Jul  1 13:58:09 2008
From: beck0778 at umn.edu (beck0778 at umn.edu)
Date: 01 Jul 2008 13:58:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Has anyone ever used firewire with a Comcast cable box?
Message-ID: <Prayer.1.0.16.0807011358090.4407@wm2.tc.umn.edu>

Apparently there's an FCC ruling that requires cable companies to provide a 
firewire-capable set top box if the customer asks for one. Has anyone out 
there ever tried using firewire to get content out of a comcast cable box? 
Were they willing to provide you with one of these boxes? Were you able to 
watch/record any channels on your linux box over firewire?

--Matthew


From sloncho at gmail.com  Tue Jul  1 14:18:27 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 14:18:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Has anyone ever used firewire with a Comcast cable
	box?
In-Reply-To: <Prayer.1.0.16.0807011358090.4407@wm2.tc.umn.edu>
References: <Prayer.1.0.16.0807011358090.4407@wm2.tc.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230807011218u17ae1410h60841b5f2153324f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 1:58 PM,  <beck0778 at umn.edu> wrote:
> Apparently there's an FCC ruling that requires cable companies to provide a
> firewire-capable set top box if the customer asks for one. Has anyone out
> there ever tried using firewire to get content out of a comcast cable box?
> Were they willing to provide you with one of these boxes? Were you able to
> watch/record any channels on your linux box over firewire?
>
> --Matthew
>

Yes, I did in the past. I took me about an hour at their office in St.
Paul until the person there understood what I want, going trough hoops
that they do not have one, etc. At the end they found a box. It
appeared that they did not know what to look for. Also, most of the
boxes they found with firewire were actually DVRs, not regular boxes,
and they tried to charge me for DVR.

Anyway, they found the box (note, you need to printout and show them
the FCC ruling, otherwise you may be out of luck).

It worked well with MythTV, and I was able to record the off the air
(non-encrypted) content. I do not know about others, because I did not
pay axtra for the rest of the HD channels.

As a summary - the unencrypted channels can be tuned even if you have
basic subscription w/o HD at all. So if you need only them you are
better with a HD tuner card.

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 15:02:53 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:02:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
Message-ID: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>

I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off hand), it's
about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the sound to
work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't have more info,
but I'm at work; laptop's at home)

Thanks!
Nick

-- 
Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com
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From erikerik at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 15:13:16 2008
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:13:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off hand), it's
> about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the sound to
> work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't have more info,
> but I'm at work; laptop's at home)

Nick - I'd guess FC5 either isn't loading any drivers for the card or
is loading the incorrect drivers. Usually what I do in this case is
boot up a knoppix CD. That will load up the correct drivers in 99% of
the cases in my experience. Then when you verify that sound is working
in knoppix, you can check what drivers it loaded (run lsmod from the
CLI) and make sure FC5 is loading the same ones.

-Erik


From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 15:26:00 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:26:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Erik,

Thanks for the advice. I'm a bit of a novice with Linux. Could you walk me
through that? What's knoppix?
I can run lsmod from any shell, right?

Thanks,
Nick


On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off hand),
> it's
> > about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the sound to
> > work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't have more
> info,
> > but I'm at work; laptop's at home)
>
> Nick - I'd guess FC5 either isn't loading any drivers for the card or
> is loading the incorrect drivers. Usually what I do in this case is
> boot up a knoppix CD. That will load up the correct drivers in 99% of
> the cases in my experience. Then when you verify that sound is working
> in knoppix, you can check what drivers it loaded (run lsmod from the
> CLI) and make sure FC5 is loading the same ones.
>
> -Erik
>



-- 
Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com
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From erikerik at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 15:28:53 2008
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 15:28:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f0807021328k84e9675hd8ba55fc2b697c3b@mail.gmail.com>

Knoppix is a livecd version of linux you can download for free. You
basically download the knoppix iso image, burn it to a CD (as you did
the FC5 image), then boot off of it. It allows you to run a full
non-destructive linux environment off of a CD. Unfortunately I'm
leaving the office momentarily, so I don't have time to give you more
details than that. Possibly someone else on the list will be able to,
though?

-Erik

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Erik,
>
> Thanks for the advice. I'm a bit of a novice with Linux. Could you walk me
> through that? What's knoppix?
> I can run lsmod from any shell, right?
>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off hand),
>> > it's
>> > about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the sound to
>> > work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't have more
>> > info,
>> > but I'm at work; laptop's at home)
>>
>> Nick - I'd guess FC5 either isn't loading any drivers for the card or
>> is loading the incorrect drivers. Usually what I do in this case is
>> boot up a knoppix CD. That will load up the correct drivers in 99% of
>> the cases in my experience. Then when you verify that sound is working
>> in knoppix, you can check what drivers it loaded (run lsmod from the
>> CLI) and make sure FC5 is loading the same ones.
>>
>> -Erik
>
>
>
> --
> Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/
>
> Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com



-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From trnja001 at umn.edu  Wed Jul  2 15:35:33 2008
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:35:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>	<fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486BE695.4070406@umn.edu>

Knoppix lets you boot into a usable Linux environment from a CD or DVD, 
meaning you don't have to install it on your hard drive on overwrite 
whatever is on there. If you're going to download a big ISO, I'd suggest 
downloading and installing Fedora Core 9 instead as it'll most likely 
support your hardware out of the box.

You can run lsmod from any shell and attach the results to the e-mail if 
you'd like.


Nick Scholtes wrote:
> Hi Erik,
>
> Thanks for the advice. I'm a bit of a novice with Linux. Could you 
> walk me through that? What's knoppix?
> I can run lsmod from any shell, right?
>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com 
> <mailto:erikerik at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com
>     <mailto:airchia at gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off
>     hand), it's
>     > about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the
>     sound to
>     > work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't
>     have more info,
>     > but I'm at work; laptop's at home)
>
>     Nick - I'd guess FC5 either isn't loading any drivers for the card or
>     is loading the incorrect drivers. Usually what I do in this case is
>     boot up a knoppix CD. That will load up the correct drivers in 99% of
>     the cases in my experience. Then when you verify that sound is working
>     in knoppix, you can check what drivers it loaded (run lsmod from the
>     CLI) and make sure FC5 is loading the same ones.
>
>     -Erik
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/ 
> <http://bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/>
>
> Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com 
> <http://cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From bradyh at bitstream.net  Wed Jul  2 16:00:16 2008
From: bradyh at bitstream.net (bradyh at bitstream.net)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 16:00:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <486BE695.4070406@umn.edu>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>	<fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
	<486BE695.4070406@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <46061.151.151.73.170.1215032416.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>

Core 5?  That's pretty old.  How many floppy disks does that require?  ;-)

If you don't think you can run the newest versions or don't want to
upgrade then try the lsmod test. If you're not sure if your laptop can
handle it Knoppix would make a good test. Otherwise definitely upgrade to
Core 9.

If you aren't able to download and burn the disks there are people here
who could do it for you. I'll do it if Qwest comes through with my new
3-7Mbps connection.

-Brady

> Knoppix lets you boot into a usable Linux environment from a CD or DVD,
> meaning you don't have to install it on your hard drive on overwrite
> whatever is on there. If you're going to download a big ISO, I'd suggest
> downloading and installing Fedora Core 9 instead as it'll most likely
> support your hardware out of the box.
>
> You can run lsmod from any shell and attach the results to the e-mail if
> you'd like.
>
>
> Nick Scholtes wrote:
>> Hi Erik,
>>
>> Thanks for the advice. I'm a bit of a novice with Linux. Could you
>> walk me through that? What's knoppix?
>> I can run lsmod from any shell, right?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com
>> <mailto:erikerik at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com
>>     <mailto:airchia at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>     > I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off
>>     hand), it's
>>     > about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the
>>     sound to
>>     > work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't
>>     have more info,
>>     > but I'm at work; laptop's at home)
>>
>>     Nick - I'd guess FC5 either isn't loading any drivers for the card
>> or
>>     is loading the incorrect drivers. Usually what I do in this case is
>>     boot up a knoppix CD. That will load up the correct drivers in 99%
>> of
>>     the cases in my experience. Then when you verify that sound is
>> working
>>     in knoppix, you can check what drivers it loaded (run lsmod from the
>>     CLI) and make sure FC5 is loading the same ones.
>>
>>     -Erik
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/
>> <http://bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/>
>>
>> Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com
>> <http://cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>




From tompoe at fngi.net  Wed Jul  2 15:25:40 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 15:25:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486BE444.50702@fngi.net>

Nick Scholtes wrote:
> I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off hand), 
> it's about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the 
> sound to work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't 
> have more info, but I'm at work; laptop's at home)
>
> Thanks!
> Nick
>
> -- 
> Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/ 
> <http://bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/>
>
> Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com 
> <http://cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
Nick:  Try hitting sound direct with:
$ aplay samplewav.wav (you'll need to search for file:
locate *.wav and pick one)
tom


From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 18:03:48 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:03:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <46061.151.151.73.170.1215032416.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
	<486BE695.4070406@umn.edu>
	<46061.151.151.73.170.1215032416.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80807021603q6750904cxc93e9a3c8ce0557d@mail.gmail.com>

Wow, everyone on this list is so helpful and friendly. Thank you. I
appreciate the comments. Sometimes you get flamed for asking seemingly
pedestrian questions!
I'll try downloading knoppix and maybe even upgrading to the new Fedora
Core. I have broadband, so I'm able to do it. But thank you for the offer.
More as it unfolds!

Nick



On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:00 PM, <bradyh at bitstream.net> wrote:

> Core 5?  That's pretty old.  How many floppy disks does that require?  ;-)
>
> If you don't think you can run the newest versions or don't want to
> upgrade then try the lsmod test. If you're not sure if your laptop can
> handle it Knoppix would make a good test. Otherwise definitely upgrade to
> Core 9.
>
> If you aren't able to download and burn the disks there are people here
> who could do it for you. I'll do it if Qwest comes through with my new
> 3-7Mbps connection.
>
> -Brady
>
> > Knoppix lets you boot into a usable Linux environment from a CD or DVD,
> > meaning you don't have to install it on your hard drive on overwrite
> > whatever is on there. If you're going to download a big ISO, I'd suggest
> > downloading and installing Fedora Core 9 instead as it'll most likely
> > support your hardware out of the box.
> >
> > You can run lsmod from any shell and attach the results to the e-mail if
> > you'd like.
> >
> >
> > Nick Scholtes wrote:
> >> Hi Erik,
> >>
> >> Thanks for the advice. I'm a bit of a novice with Linux. Could you
> >> walk me through that? What's knoppix?
> >> I can run lsmod from any shell, right?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> Nick
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com
> >> <mailto:erikerik at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:02 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com
> >>     <mailto:airchia at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >>     > I have a Dell Latitude laptop (can't remember model number off
> >>     hand), it's
> >>     > about three years old. I have Fedora Core 5 and I can't get the
> >>     sound to
> >>     > work. I have a functioning sound card. Ideas? (Sorry I don't
> >>     have more info,
> >>     > but I'm at work; laptop's at home)
> >>
> >>     Nick - I'd guess FC5 either isn't loading any drivers for the card
> >> or
> >>     is loading the incorrect drivers. Usually what I do in this case is
> >>     boot up a knoppix CD. That will load up the correct drivers in 99%
> >> of
> >>     the cases in my experience. Then when you verify that sound is
> >> working
> >>     in knoppix, you can check what drivers it loaded (run lsmod from the
> >>     CLI) and make sure FC5 is loading the same ones.
> >>
> >>     -Erik
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/
> >> <http://bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/>
> >>
> >> Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com
> >> <http://cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com>
> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
>


-- 
Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 18:12:57 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 18:12:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DSL modem for grandma
In-Reply-To: <20080627115637.d75f6c7d.tclug@jfoo.org>
References: <65293fcc0806270714w3aaf3c0el7c63495a9314af68@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDC08B2F-C445-4E6F-B47E-C20EEF228811@secure-computing.net>
	<065601c8d874$cc906440$e017a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<20080627115637.d75f6c7d.tclug@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020807021612t22e82b04o936b68b77e4c56a9@mail.gmail.com>

Find something that is just a DSL modem/bridge without the frills of
Wireless networking, NAT, etc. I've got a company that is using a
DLink DSL Router/Modem in bridge mode and haven't had a problem with
the modem for at least 2 years. I'm very happy having a DSL modem that
is only smart enough to do the DSL authentication and dump an Ethernet
connection to a better device. Separating the modem from the router
makes life easier if you decide to change to cable in the future. Say
you want to move from 802.11B to 802.11G to 802.11N to
802.11whateverisnext, or change to a router that has external storage,
move to a Time Capsule, whatever. The less you have to involve your
ISP with such a change the better. :)

Once you have a DSL modem, pick a router that is supported by OpenWRT
(www.openwrt.org) and/or DD-WRT (www.dd-wrt.com).

OpenWRT Supported Hardware:
http://wiki.openwrt.org/TableOfHardware?action=show&redirect=toh
DD-WRT Supported Hardware:
http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Supported_Devices

I go by the OpenWRT list. You want one that says Supported, not WIP or Kamikaze.

Even if you don't use the 3rd party firmware you will still end up
with a Router/AP that is better behaved than most of the devices made
by the same manufacturers but don't run OpenWRT/DD-WRT.

This is all my opinion on how I like to have things setup. I like
having the option of dropping my cable or DSL service without having
to swap out my router/firewall. Good for threatening to cancel your
cable service. :)

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From tclug at cmulcahy.com  Wed Jul  2 18:55:48 2008
From: tclug at cmulcahy.com (tclug at cmulcahy.com)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 18:55:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486C1584.4090903@cmulcahy.com>

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From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 21:40:11 2008
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:40:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
Message-ID: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>

Howdy,

I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS system in the
house.

The setup is as follows

options {
        listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1; };
        listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
        directory       "/var/named";
        dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
        statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
        memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
        allow-query     { localhost; };
        recursion yes;
        forwarders {
                68.87.77.130;
                68.87.72.130;
                };
};
logging {
        channel default_debug {
                file "data/named.run";
                severity dynamic;
        };
};
zone "." IN {
        type hint;
        file "named.ca";
};

include "/etc/named.rfc1912.zones";

zone "home.local" {
        type master;
        file "/var/named/home.local.hosts";
        };

zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
        type master;
        file "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa.zone";
        allow-update { key "rndckey"; };
        notify yes;

I have the files in /var/named setup and configured. From the DNS system I
can type
nslookup 43p and get the following
[root at fc9 named]# vi /etc/named.conf
[root at fc9 named]# nslookup 43p
Server:         127.0.0.1
Address:        127.0.0.1#53
Name:   43p.home.local
Address: 192.168.1.52


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Wed Jul  2 21:47:55 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 21:47:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486C3DDB.9060607@beitsahour.net>

James wrote:
> Howdy,
>  
> I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS system in 
> the house.
>  
> The setup is as follows
>  
> options {
>         listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>; };
>         listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
>         directory       "/var/named";
>         dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
>         statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
>         memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
>         allow-query     { localhost; };


this tells it to only allow localhost to use this server as a resolver, 
add your subnet in:
allow-query  {
    localhost;
    10.0.0.0/24;
};

or define an acl for your local net

acl localnet {
    10.0.0.0/24;
};

and then you can use localnet in the allow-query list


From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Wed Jul  2 22:00:09 2008
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:00:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] {Disarmed}  DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38896.192.168.0.7.1215054009.squirrel@flyballdogs.com>

Did you open port 53 on the firefall that comes with fedora?

System->Adminstration->Firewall on the gnome menu

-- 
Kathryn
http://womensfooty.com


From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 21:58:03 2008
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:58:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <65C7B8766ADCD445B28DEA1DF0C7FC1F011B3F65@MSPMAILCL01.int.capella.lan>
References: <65C7B8766ADCD445B28DEA1DF0C7FC1F011B3F65@MSPMAILCL01.int.capella.lan>
Message-ID: <81675d140807021958l266885c9w48c382f29550151b@mail.gmail.com>

I should have mentioned that I tried chaning /etc/named.conf listen-on port
53 { 127.0.0.1; }; to listen-on port 53 { 192.168.1.50; };

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:51 PM, Stuart, Joseph <Joseph.Stuart at capella.edu>
wrote:

>  This is from my blackberry so I might not have seen it all, but maybe the
> listen-on port 53 (127.00.1) is the problem. Shouldn't that ip be the
> external interface?
>
>
> -----
> Sent from my wireless device
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org <tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org>
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Sent: Wed Jul 02 21:40:11 2008
> Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
>
> Howdy,
>
> I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS system in the
> house.
>
> The setup is as follows
>
> options {
>         listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1; };
>         listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
>         directory       "/var/named";
>         dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
>         statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
>         memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
>         allow-query     { localhost; };
>         recursion yes;
>         forwarders {
>                 68.87.77.130;
>                 68.87.72.130;
>                 };
> };
> logging {
>         channel default_debug {
>                 file "data/named.run";
>                 severity dynamic;
>         };
> };
> zone "." IN {
>         type hint;
>         file "named.ca";
> };
>
>
> include "/etc/named.rfc1912.zones";
>
> zone "home.local" {
>         type master;
>         file "/var/named/home.local.hosts";
>         };
>
> zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
>         type master;
>         file "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa.zone";
>         allow-update { key "rndckey"; };
>         notify yes;
>
>
> I have the files in /var/named setup and configured. From the DNS system I
> can type
> nslookup 43p and get the following
> [root at fc9 named]# vi /etc/named.conf
> [root at fc9 named]# nslookup 43p
> Server:         127.0.0.1
> Address:        127.0.0.1#53 <http://127.0.0.1/#53>
> Name:   43p.home.local
> Address: 192.168.1.52
>
> From a windows system I get the following
> C:\Users\dalan>nslookup 43p
> Server:  UnKnown
> Address:  192.168.1.50:53
> *** UnKnown can't find 43p: Query refused
>
> From the AIX system I get
> (43p-aix) [dalan] nslookup 43p
> *** Can't find server name for address 192.168.1.50:Query refused
> *** Default servers are not available
> (43p-aix) [dalan]
>
> I have shut off the firewall and SE-Linux on the Fedora system. I'm not
> sure why the fedora system is blocking/refusing the request coming from
> another system.
> I even put the following entries in iptables.
> SERVER_IP="192.168.1.50"
> iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53
> -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport
> 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m
> state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 -m
> state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53
> -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport
> 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m
> state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 -m
> state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>
> I still have the same effect.
>
> Running the following shows that the system is refusing the connection.
> /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
>
> [root at fc9 named]# /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
> tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v or -vv for full protocol decode
> listening on eth0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), capture size 96 bytes
> 21:39:38.512926 IP aix.sparish.local.52686 > fc9.sparish.local.domain:
> 46304+ PTR? 50.1.168.192.in-addr.arpa. (43)
>         0x0000:  4500 0047 ac22 0000 1e11 6ccd c0a8 0134  E..G."....l....4
>         0x0010:  c0a8 0132 cdce 0035 0033 7c2c b4e0 0100  ...2...5.3|,....
>         0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
>         0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  8.192.in-addr.ar
>         0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
> 21:39:38.519048 IP fc9.sparish.local.domain > aix.sparish.local.52686:
> 46304 Refused- 0/0/0 (43)
>         0x0000:  4500 0047 0000 4000 4011 b6ef c0a8 0132  E..G.. at .@......2
>         0x0010:  c0a8 0134 0035 cdce 0033 fc26 b4e0 8105  ...4.5...3.&....
>         0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
>         0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  8.192.in-addr.ar
>         0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
>
>
> Any help would be welcome
>
> Thanks
>
>
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From Joseph.Stuart at capella.edu  Wed Jul  2 21:51:18 2008
From: Joseph.Stuart at capella.edu (Stuart, Joseph)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:51:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
Message-ID: <65C7B8766ADCD445B28DEA1DF0C7FC1F011B3F65@MSPMAILCL01.int.capella.lan>

This is from my blackberry so I might not have seen it all, but maybe the listen-on port 53 (127.00.1) is the problem. Shouldn't that ip be the external interface?


-----
Sent from my wireless device

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org <tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org>
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Wed Jul 02 21:40:11 2008
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused

Howdy,
 
I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS system in the house. 
 
The setup is as follows
 
options {
        listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1; };
        listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
        directory       "/var/named";
        dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
        statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
        memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
        allow-query     { localhost; };
        recursion yes;
        forwarders {
                68.87.77.130;
                68.87.72.130;
                };
};
logging {
        channel default_debug {
                file "data/named.run";
                severity dynamic;
        };
};
zone "." IN {
        type hint;
        file "named.ca";
};


include "/etc/named.rfc1912.zones";
 
zone "home.local" {
        type master;
        file "/var/named/home.local.hosts";
        };

zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
        type master;
        file "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa.zone";
        allow-update { key "rndckey"; };
        notify yes;

 
I have the files in /var/named setup and configured. From the DNS system I can type 
nslookup 43p and get the following
[root at fc9 named]# vi /etc/named.conf
[root at fc9 named]# nslookup 43p
Server:         127.0.0.1
Address:        127.0.0.1#53
Name:   43p.home.local
Address: 192.168.1.52
 
From a windows system I get the following
C:\Users\dalan>nslookup 43p
Server:  UnKnown
Address:  192.168.1.50:53
*** UnKnown can't find 43p: Query refused
 
From the AIX system I get
(43p-aix) [dalan] nslookup 43p
*** Can't find server name for address 192.168.1.50:Query refused
*** Default servers are not available
(43p-aix) [dalan]

I have shut off the firewall and SE-Linux on the Fedora system. I'm not sure why the fedora system is blocking/refusing the request coming from another system.
I even put the following entries in iptables.
SERVER_IP="192.168.1.50"
iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
 
I still have the same effect.
 
Running the following shows that the system is refusing the connection.
/usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53

[root at fc9 named]# /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v or -vv for full protocol decode
listening on eth0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), capture size 96 bytes
21:39:38.512926 IP aix.sparish.local.52686 > fc9.sparish.local.domain: 46304+ PTR? 50.1.168.192.in-addr.arpa. (43)
        0x0000:  4500 0047 ac22 0000 1e11 6ccd c0a8 0134  E..G."....l....4
        0x0010:  c0a8 0132 cdce 0035 0033 7c2c b4e0 0100  ...2...5.3|,....
        0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
        0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  8.192.in-addr.ar
        0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
21:39:38.519048 IP fc9.sparish.local.domain > aix.sparish.local.52686: 46304 Refused- 0/0/0 (43)
        0x0000:  4500 0047 0000 4000 4011 b6ef c0a8 0132  E..G.. at .@......2
        0x0010:  c0a8 0134 0035 cdce 0033 fc26 b4e0 8105  ...4.5...3.&....
        0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
        0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  8.192.in-addr.ar
        0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....

 
Any help would be welcome
 
Thanks
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From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Wed Jul  2 22:03:13 2008
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:03:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] {Disarmed}  DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <62488.192.168.0.7.1215054193.squirrel@flyballdogs.com>

A
> options {
>         listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1; };

Won't this restrict to listening only on localhost? No other hosts will be
able to connect to port 53 on this machine.


>         listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
>         directory       "/var/named";
>         dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
>         statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
>         memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
>         allow-query     { localhost; };

And this will only allow queries from localhost

-- 
Kathryn
http://womensfooty.com


From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 22:06:49 2008
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:06:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <486C3DDB.9060607@beitsahour.net>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<486C3DDB.9060607@beitsahour.net>
Message-ID: <81675d140807022006j1a7e39a4m571cf7339e87d81b@mail.gmail.com>

I inserted your suggestion and the connection is still refused.

I also tried to telnet to the port and the telnet gets refused.

Thanks
James

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net> wrote:

> James wrote:
> > Howdy,
> >
> > I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS system in
> > the house.
> >
> > The setup is as follows
> >
> > options {
> >         listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>; };
> >         listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
> >         directory       "/var/named";
> >         dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
> >         statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
> >         memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
> >         allow-query     { localhost; };
>
>
> this tells it to only allow localhost to use this server as a resolver,
> add your subnet in:
> allow-query  {
>    localhost;
>    10.0.0.0/24;
> };
>
> or define an acl for your local net
>
> acl localnet {
>    10.0.0.0/24;
> };
>
> and then you can use localnet in the allow-query list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Wed Jul  2 22:07:21 2008
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 22:07:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] {Disarmed} DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <38896.192.168.0.7.1215054009.squirrel@flyballdogs.com>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<38896.192.168.0.7.1215054009.squirrel@flyballdogs.com>
Message-ID: <81675d140807022007j199f1abeh30bce5f7354daae1@mail.gmail.com>

I've shut off the firewall.




On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:00 PM, Kathryn Hogg <kjh at flyballdogs.com> wrote:

> Did you open port 53 on the firefall that comes with fedora?
>
> System->Adminstration->Firewall on the gnome menu
>
> --
> Kathryn
> http://womensfooty.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tclug at beitsahour.net  Wed Jul  2 22:23:32 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2008 22:23:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <81675d140807022006j1a7e39a4m571cf7339e87d81b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<486C3DDB.9060607@beitsahour.net>
	<81675d140807022006j1a7e39a4m571cf7339e87d81b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486C4634.8000508@beitsahour.net>

James wrote:
> I inserted your suggestion and the connection is still refused.
>  
> I also tried to telnet to the port and the telnet gets refused.
>  
> Thanks
> James
>
> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net 
> <mailto:tclug at beitsahour.net>> wrote:
>
>     James wrote:
>     > Howdy,
>     >
>     > I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS
>     system in
>     > the house.
>     >
>     > The setup is as follows
>     >
>     > options {
>     >         listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>
>     <http://127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>>; };
>

Need to change this to listen on all your interfaces,

also dns is udp, you cannot telnet to port 53 to test it out, use host 
@localhost www.example.com or dig www.example.com localhost



From tclug at beitsahour.net  Thu Jul  3 09:38:59 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 09:38:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0807030936170.20757@beer.tclug.org>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<486C3DDB.9060607@beitsahour.net>
	<81675d140807022006j1a7e39a4m571cf7339e87d81b@mail.gmail.com>
	<486C4634.8000508@beitsahour.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0807030936170.20757@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <486CE483.2010907@beitsahour.net>

Jima wrote:
>
>  While I'll agree that you're right about the DNS, UDP, and telnet 
> parts, you appear to have mixed up the syntax for `dig` and `host`.  
> It's:
>
> dig @localhost www.example.com
>  or
> host www.example.com localhost
i cannot help it that English is my second language  ;)


From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  3 09:55:24 2008
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:55:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <486CE483.2010907@beitsahour.net>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<486C3DDB.9060607@beitsahour.net>
	<81675d140807022006j1a7e39a4m571cf7339e87d81b@mail.gmail.com>
	<486C4634.8000508@beitsahour.net>
	<alpine.LFD.1.00.0807030936170.20757@beer.tclug.org>
	<486CE483.2010907@beitsahour.net>
Message-ID: <81675d140807030755m16ef24e0k8f97ffbb598c9698@mail.gmail.com>

Figures the returns I get from a google search would tell me to test with
Telnet and they have it wrong..

Thank Munir

On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 9:38 AM, Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net> wrote:

> Jima wrote:
> >
> >  While I'll agree that you're right about the DNS, UDP, and telnet
> > parts, you appear to have mixed up the syntax for `dig` and `host`.
> > It's:
> >
> > dig @localhost www.example.com
> >  or
> > host www.example.com localhost
> i cannot help it that English is my second language  ;)
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Jul  3 09:37:48 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 09:37:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <486C4634.8000508@beitsahour.net>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<486C3DDB.9060607@beitsahour.net>
	<81675d140807022006j1a7e39a4m571cf7339e87d81b@mail.gmail.com>
	<486C4634.8000508@beitsahour.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0807030936170.20757@beer.tclug.org>

On Wed, 2 Jul 2008, Munir Nassar wrote:
> Need to change this to listen on all your interfaces,
>
> also dns is udp, you cannot telnet to port 53 to test it out, use host
> @localhost www.example.com or dig www.example.com localhost

  While I'll agree that you're right about the DNS, UDP, and telnet parts, 
you appear to have mixed up the syntax for `dig` and `host`.  It's:

dig @localhost www.example.com
  or
host www.example.com localhost

  FYI. :-)

      Jima


From marc at e-skinner.net  Thu Jul  3 10:46:25 2008
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:46:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486CF451.6090308@e-skinner.net>

Might want to try this:

acl bogusnets { 
    0.0.0.0/8;
    169.254.0.0/16;
    224.0.0.0/3;
};

acl internalnet {
        127.0.0.1;
        192.168.1.0/24;
        };

acl mynet {
        127.0.0.1;
        192.168.1.0/24;
        };

acl thisdns {
         127.0.0.1;
         192.168.1.whaever your DNS server is;
        };



in options section:


        allow-notify {
                mynet;
        };
        allow-query {
                mynet;
        };
        allow-recursion {
                mynet;
        };
        blackhole {
                bogusnets;
        };
        listen-on {
                thisdns;
        };
        listen-on-v6 {
                none;
        };
        query-source address * port 53;
        version "!BIND!";










James wrote:
> Howdy,
>  
> I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS system 
> in the house.
>  
> The setup is as follows
>  
> options {
>         listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>; };
>         listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
>         directory       "/var/named";
>         dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
>         statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
>         memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
>         allow-query     { localhost; };
>         recursion yes;
>         forwarders {
>                 68.87.77.130 <http://68.87.77.130>;
>                 68.87.72.130 <http://68.87.72.130>;
>                 };
> };
> logging {
>         channel default_debug {
>                 file "data/named.run";
>                 severity dynamic;
>         };
> };
> zone "." IN {
>         type hint;
>         file "named.ca <http://named.ca>";
> };
>
> include "/etc/named.rfc1912.zones";
>  
> zone "home.local" {
>         type master;
>         file "/var/named/home.local.hosts";
>         };
>
> zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
>         type master;
>         file "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa.zone";
>         allow-update { key "rndckey"; };
>         notify yes;
>  
> I have the files in /var/named setup and configured. From the DNS 
> system I can type
> nslookup 43p and get the following
> [root at fc9 named]# vi /etc/named.conf
> [root at fc9 named]# nslookup 43p
> Server:         127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>
> Address:        127.0.0.1#53 <http://127.0.0.1#53>
> Name:   43p.home.local
> Address: 192.168.1.52 <http://192.168.1.52>
>  
> From a windows system I get the following
> C:\Users\dalan>nslookup 43p
> Server:  UnKnown
> Address:  192.168.1.50:53 <http://192.168.1.50:53>
> *** UnKnown can't find 43p: Query refused
>  
> From the AIX system I get
> (43p-aix) [dalan] nslookup 43p
> *** Can't find server name for address 192.168.1.50:Query refused
> *** Default servers are not available
> (43p-aix) [dalan]
> I have shut off the firewall and SE-Linux on the Fedora system. I'm 
> not sure why the fedora system is blocking/refusing the request coming 
> from another system.
> I even put the following entries in iptables.
> SERVER_IP="192.168.1.50 <http://192.168.1.50>"
> iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP 
> --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 
> 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m 
> state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 
> -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP 
> --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 
> 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m 
> state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
> iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 
> -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>  
> I still have the same effect.
>  
> Running the following shows that the system is refusing the connection.
> /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
>
> [root at fc9 named]# /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
> tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v or -vv for full protocol decode
> listening on eth0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), capture size 96 bytes
> 21:39:38.512926 IP aix.sparish.local.52686 > fc9.sparish.local.domain: 
> 46304+ PTR? 50.1.168.192.in-addr.arpa. (43)
>         0x0000:  4500 0047 ac22 0000 1e11 6ccd c0a8 0134  E..G."....l....4
>         0x0010:  c0a8 0132 cdce 0035 0033 7c2c b4e0 0100  ...2...5.3|,....
>         0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
>         0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  
> 8.192.in-addr.ar <http://8.192.in-addr.ar>
>         0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
> 21:39:38.519048 IP fc9.sparish.local.domain > aix.sparish.local.52686: 
> 46304 Refused- 0/0/0 (43)
>         0x0000:  4500 0047 0000 4000 4011 b6ef c0a8 0132  
> E..G.. at .@......2 <mailto:E..G.. at .@......2>
>         0x0010:  c0a8 0134 0035 cdce 0033 fc26 b4e0 8105  ...4.5...3.&....
>         0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
>         0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  
> 8.192.in-addr.ar <http://8.192.in-addr.ar>
>         0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
>  
> Any help would be welcome
>  
> Thanks
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Thu Jul  3 17:07:57 2008
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2008 17:07:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <486CF451.6090308@e-skinner.net>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>
	<486CF451.6090308@e-skinner.net>
Message-ID: <81675d140807031507h289a8808x5770943d40743e58@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Marc, this worked.

Now I need to setup acl sets for the internal and external network.


On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Marc Skinner <marc at e-skinner.net> wrote:

> Might want to try this:
>
> acl bogusnets {   0.0.0.0/8;
>   169.254.0.0/16;
>   224.0.0.0/3;
> };
>
> acl internalnet {
>       127.0.0.1;
>       192.168.1.0/24;
>       };
>
> acl mynet {
>       127.0.0.1;
>       192.168.1.0/24;
>       };
>
> acl thisdns {
>        127.0.0.1;
>        192.168.1.whaever your DNS server is;
>       };
>
>
>
> in options section:
>
>
>       allow-notify {
>               mynet;
>       };
>       allow-query {
>               mynet;
>       };
>       allow-recursion {
>               mynet;
>       };
>       blackhole {
>               bogusnets;
>       };
>       listen-on {
>               thisdns;
>       };
>       listen-on-v6 {
>               none;
>       };
>       query-source address * port 53;
>       version "!BIND!";
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> James wrote:
>
>> Howdy,
>>  I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS system in
>> the house.
>>  The setup is as follows
>>  options {
>>        listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>; };
>>        listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
>>        directory       "/var/named";
>>        dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
>>        statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
>>        memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
>>        allow-query     { localhost; };
>>        recursion yes;
>>        forwarders {
>>                68.87.77.130 <http://68.87.77.130>;
>>                68.87.72.130 <http://68.87.72.130>;
>>                };
>> };
>> logging {
>>        channel default_debug {
>>                file "data/named.run";
>>                severity dynamic;
>>        };
>> };
>> zone "." IN {
>>        type hint;
>>        file "named.ca <http://named.ca>";
>> };
>>
>> include "/etc/named.rfc1912.zones";
>>  zone "home.local" {
>>        type master;
>>        file "/var/named/home.local.hosts";
>>        };
>>
>> zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
>>        type master;
>>        file "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa.zone";
>>        allow-update { key "rndckey"; };
>>        notify yes;
>>  I have the files in /var/named setup and configured. From the DNS system
>> I can type
>> nslookup 43p and get the following
>> [root at fc9 named]# vi /etc/named.conf
>> [root at fc9 named]# nslookup 43p
>> Server:         127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1>
>> Address:        127.0.0.1#53 <http://127.0.0.1/#53> <http://127.0.0.1#53<http://127.0.0.1/#53>
>> >
>> Name:   43p.home.local
>> Address: 192.168.1.52 <http://192.168.1.52>
>>  From a windows system I get the following
>> C:\Users\dalan>nslookup 43p
>> Server:  UnKnown
>> Address:  192.168.1.50:53 <http://192.168.1.50:53>
>> *** UnKnown can't find 43p: Query refused
>>  From the AIX system I get
>> (43p-aix) [dalan] nslookup 43p
>> *** Can't find server name for address 192.168.1.50:Query refused
>> *** Default servers are not available
>> (43p-aix) [dalan]
>> I have shut off the firewall and SE-Linux on the Fedora system. I'm not
>> sure why the fedora system is blocking/refusing the request coming from
>> another system.
>> I even put the following entries in iptables.
>> SERVER_IP="192.168.1.50 <http://192.168.1.50>"
>> iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP --dport
>> 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>> iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport
>> 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>> iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m
>> state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>> iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 -m
>> state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d $SERVER_IP --dport
>> 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>> iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport
>> 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>> iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m
>> state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>> iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0 --dport 53 -m
>> state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>>  I still have the same effect.
>>  Running the following shows that the system is refusing the connection.
>> /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
>>
>> [root at fc9 named]# /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
>> tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v or -vv for full protocol decode
>> listening on eth0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), capture size 96 bytes
>> 21:39:38.512926 IP aix.sparish.local.52686 > fc9.sparish.local.domain:
>> 46304+ PTR? 50.1.168.192.in-addr.arpa. (43)
>>        0x0000:  4500 0047 ac22 0000 1e11 6ccd c0a8 0134  E..G."....l....4
>>        0x0010:  c0a8 0132 cdce 0035 0033 7c2c b4e0 0100  ...2...5.3|,....
>>        0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
>>        0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  8.192.in-addr.ar<
>> http://8.192.in-addr.ar>
>>        0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
>> 21:39:38.519048 IP fc9.sparish.local.domain > aix.sparish.local.52686:
>> 46304 Refused- 0/0/0 (43)
>>        0x0000:  4500 0047 0000 4000 4011 b6ef c0a8 0132  E..G.. at .@......2
>> <mailto:E..G.. at .@......2>
>>        0x0010:  c0a8 0134 0035 cdce 0033 fc26 b4e0 8105  ...4.5...3.&....
>>        0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136  .........50.1.16
>>        0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172  8.192.in-addr.ar<
>> http://8.192.in-addr.ar>
>>        0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
>>  Any help would be welcome
>>  Thanks
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
>
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From marc at e-skinner.net  Thu Jul  3 22:47:49 2008
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2008 22:47:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] DNS connection refused
In-Reply-To: <81675d140807031507h289a8808x5770943d40743e58@mail.gmail.com>
References: <81675d140807021940h7c5ff854s629c9a4e912f4bf4@mail.gmail.com>	
	<486CF451.6090308@e-skinner.net>
	<81675d140807031507h289a8808x5770943d40743e58@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <486D9D65.7040107@e-skinner.net>

i do this:  - that should get you started!

// *** EXTERNAL VIEW ***

view "external-in" in {

        match-clients {
                any;
        };
        recursion no;
        additional-from-auth no;
        additional-from-cache no;

// HINT
        zone "." {
                type hint;
                file "root.hints";
        };

// FORWARDS
        zone "localhost" {
                type master;
                file "ex.addr/localhost";
                allow-query{
                        any;
                };
        };
// REVERSES
        zone "0.0.127.in-addr.arpa" {
                type master;
                file "ex.rev/127.0.0";
        };
};

/////////////////////////////////////////////

// *** INTERNAL VIEW ***

view "internal-in" in {
        match-clients {
                internalnet;
        };
        recursion yes;
        additional-from-auth yes;
        additional-from-cache yes;

// HINTS
        zone "." {
                type hint;
                file "root.hints";
        };

// FORWARDS
        zone "localhost" {
                type master;
                file "in.addr/localhost";
                allow-query{
                        any;
                };
        };
        zone "home.domain.com" {
                type master;
                file "in.addr/home.domain.com";
                allow-query{
                        any;
                };
        };

// REVERSES
        zone "0.0.127.in-addr.arpa" {
                type master;
                file "in.rev/127.0.0";
        };
        zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
                type master;
                file "in.rev/192.168.1";
                allow-query{
                        any;
                };
        };






James wrote:
> Thanks Marc, this worked.
>  
> Now I need to setup acl sets for the internal and external network.
>  
>  
> On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Marc Skinner <marc at e-skinner.net 
> <mailto:marc at e-skinner.net>> wrote:
>
>     Might want to try this:
>
>     acl bogusnets {   0.0.0.0/8 <http://0.0.0.0/8>;
>       169.254.0.0/16 <http://169.254.0.0/16>;
>       224.0.0.0/3 <http://224.0.0.0/3>;
>     };
>
>     acl internalnet {
>           127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>;
>           192.168.1.0/24 <http://192.168.1.0/24>;
>           };
>
>     acl mynet {
>           127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>;
>           192.168.1.0/24 <http://192.168.1.0/24>;
>           };
>
>     acl thisdns {
>            127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>;
>            192.168.1.whaever your DNS server is;
>           };
>
>
>
>     in options section:
>
>
>           allow-notify {
>                   mynet;
>           };
>           allow-query {
>                   mynet;
>           };
>           allow-recursion {
>                   mynet;
>           };
>           blackhole {
>                   bogusnets;
>           };
>           listen-on {
>                   thisdns;
>           };
>           listen-on-v6 {
>                   none;
>           };
>           query-source address * port 53;
>           version "!BIND!";
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     James wrote:
>
>         Howdy,
>          I have Fedora 9 installed and would like to use it as the DNS
>         system in the house.
>          The setup is as follows
>          options {
>                listen-on port 53 { 127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>
>         <http://127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>>; };
>
>                listen-on-v6 port 53 { ::1; };
>                directory       "/var/named";
>                dump-file       "/var/named/data/cache_dump.db";
>                statistics-file "/var/named/data/named_stats.txt";
>                memstatistics-file "/var/named/data/named_mem_stats.txt";
>                allow-query     { localhost; };
>                recursion yes;
>                forwarders {
>                        68.87.77.130 <http://68.87.77.130/>
>         <http://68.87.77.130 <http://68.87.77.130/>>;
>                        68.87.72.130 <http://68.87.72.130/>
>         <http://68.87.72.130 <http://68.87.72.130/>>;
>
>                        };
>         };
>         logging {
>                channel default_debug {
>                        file "data/named.run";
>                        severity dynamic;
>                };
>         };
>         zone "." IN {
>                type hint;
>                file "named.ca <http://named.ca/> <http://named.ca
>         <http://named.ca/>>";
>
>         };
>
>         include "/etc/named.rfc1912.zones";
>          zone "home.local" {
>                type master;
>                file "/var/named/home.local.hosts";
>                };
>
>         zone "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa" {
>                type master;
>                file "1.168.192.in-addr.arpa.zone";
>                allow-update { key "rndckey"; };
>                notify yes;
>          I have the files in /var/named setup and configured. From the
>         DNS system I can type
>         nslookup 43p and get the following
>         [root at fc9 named]# vi /etc/named.conf
>         [root at fc9 named]# nslookup 43p
>         Server:         127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>
>         <http://127.0.0.1 <http://127.0.0.1/>>
>         Address:        127.0.0.1#53 <http://127.0.0.1/#53>
>         <http://127.0.0.1#53 <http://127.0.0.1/#53>>
>         Name:   43p.home.local
>         Address: 192.168.1.52 <http://192.168.1.52/>
>         <http://192.168.1.52 <http://192.168.1.52/>>
>
>          From a windows system I get the following
>         C:\Users\dalan>nslookup 43p
>         Server:  UnKnown
>         Address:  192.168.1.50:53 <http://192.168.1.50:53/>
>         <http://192.168.1.50:53 <http://192.168.1.50:53/>>
>
>         *** UnKnown can't find 43p: Query refused
>          From the AIX system I get
>         (43p-aix) [dalan] nslookup 43p
>         *** Can't find server name for address 192.168.1.50:Query refused
>         *** Default servers are not available
>         (43p-aix) [dalan]
>         I have shut off the firewall and SE-Linux on the Fedora
>         system. I'm not sure why the fedora system is
>         blocking/refusing the request coming from another system.
>         I even put the following entries in iptables.
>         SERVER_IP="192.168.1.50 <http://192.168.1.50/>
>         <http://192.168.1.50 <http://192.168.1.50/>>"
>
>         iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d
>         $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>         iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0
>         --dport 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>         iptables -A INPUT -p udp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP
>         --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>         iptables -A OUTPUT -p udp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0
>         --dport 53 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>         iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 1024:65535 -d
>         $SERVER_IP --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>         iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0
>         --dport 1024:65535 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>         iptables -A INPUT -p tcp -s 0/0 --sport 53 -d $SERVER_IP
>         --dport 53 -m state --state NEW,ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>         iptables -A OUTPUT -p tcp -s $SERVER_IP --sport 53 -d 0/0
>         --dport 53 -m state --state ESTABLISHED -j ACCEPT
>          I still have the same effect.
>          Running the following shows that the system is refusing the
>         connection.
>         /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
>
>         [root at fc9 named]# /usr/sbin/tcpdump -X port 53
>         tcpdump: verbose output suppressed, use -v or -vv for full
>         protocol decode
>         listening on eth0, link-type EN10MB (Ethernet), capture size
>         96 bytes
>         21:39:38.512926 IP aix.sparish.local.52686 >
>         fc9.sparish.local.domain: 46304+ PTR?
>         50.1.168.192.in-addr.arpa. (43)
>                0x0000:  4500 0047 ac22 0000 1e11 6ccd c0a8 0134
>          E..G."....l....4
>                0x0010:  c0a8 0132 cdce 0035 0033 7c2c b4e0 0100
>          ...2...5.3|,....
>                0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136
>          .........50.1.16
>                0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172
>          8.192.in-addr.ar <http://8.192.in-addr.ar/>
>         <http://8.192.in-addr.ar <http://8.192.in-addr.ar/>>
>
>                0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
>         21:39:38.519048 IP fc9.sparish.local.domain >
>         aix.sparish.local.52686: 46304 Refused- 0/0/0 (43)
>                0x0000:  4500 0047 0000 4000 4011 b6ef c0a8 0132
>          E..G.. at .@......2 <mailto:E..G..@ <mailto:E..G..@>. at ......2>
>
>                0x0010:  c0a8 0134 0035 cdce 0033 fc26 b4e0 8105
>          ...4.5...3.&....
>                0x0020:  0001 0000 0000 0000 0235 3001 3103 3136
>          .........50.1.16
>                0x0030:  3803 3139 3207 696e 2d61 6464 7204 6172
>          8.192.in-addr.ar <http://8.192.in-addr.ar/>
>         <http://8.192.in-addr.ar <http://8.192.in-addr.ar/>>
>
>                0x0040:  7061 0000 0c00 01                        pa.....
>          Any help would be welcome
>          Thanks
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>         tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>         http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>          
>
>
>



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jul  4 15:50:15 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:50:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] ImageMagick outdoing Photoshop (for me, so far)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807041540010.3047@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

More below, but mainly I wonder how people here do downsizing of JPEG 
images for the web, so I'm putting this question up front:  Can any of you 
do better downsizing than this, and if so how?...

http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/pics/20080701_Adriana/comparison/

The filenames reveal which program was used to downsize and to what width. 
Use the "original.jpg" with your system and see how it looks, but if yours 
looks better, make sure the downsized file is about the same number of 
bytes as mine, or smaller.  --Mike

   ---

For years I've been using an "action" I made in Photoshop to make smaller 
versions of my large JPEG photos.  For every JPEG file in a directory, the 
action would make a JPEG 640 pixels wide and another 320 pixels wide 
(maintaining aspect ratio).  It had to put them in the same fixed location 
so I had another script to move them to where I wanted them.

Now, finally, I tried ImageMagick' "convert" program on an Ubuntu machine. 
It didn't take too long to figure out how it worked.  The first few 
downsized files I made were vastly superior to what I was getting from 
Photoshop, but then I realized that my file sizes were larger -- more than 
double the size of the Photoshop files. So I read a little more about 
convert's -strip and -quality options and I titrated -quality so that I 
was getting the same filesize as Photoshop was producing.  These are the 
commands I was then using for 320 and 640 pixel wide images:

convert infile.jpg -strip -quality 80 -resize 320 -filter Lanczos -sharpen 0x0.7 outfile.jpg
convert infile.jpg -strip -quality 80 -resize 640 -filter Lanczos -sharpen 0x0.7 outfile.jpg

Here is an example of ImageMagick and Photoshop downsized output files 
along with the original:

http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/pics/20080701_Adriana/comparison/

If you can do better, let me know because I will love to see your output 
files and your method (just make sure your output file size is almost the 
same as mine).

Now that the files were the same size, I still liked the ImageMagick files 
better than the Photoshop files!  That was a nice surprise.  The truth may 
be that Photoshop is better at this but I wasn't doing everything I could 
to optimize its output.  The reason is I didn't try harder is that it is a 
pain to work with the Photoshop "actions" -- I don't want to mess with 
them. ImageMagick uses command-line arguments instead of "actions" so it 
is a piece of cake to make changes to settings.  This also makes it easy 
to do scripting.  Here's what I'll be doing in bash:

mkdir 640 320
for file in $(\ls -1 *.jpg) ; do
    for N in 640 320 ; do
       convert $file -strip -quality 80 -resize ${N} -filter Lanczos -sharpen 0x0.7 ${N}/$file
    done
done

By the way, I got some of my ideas from here:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/foto/down_sample/example1.htm

But that guy used Photoshop to "sharpen" his ImageMagick output file, 
which seems like cheating to me, or at least it confuses readers who want 
to compare the programs.  Maybe ImageMagick didn't have -sharpen back in 
2004 when he made that page.

Best,
Mike


From tompoe at fngi.net  Sun Jul  6 08:23:34 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:23:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Wonderland project volunteers needed
Message-ID: <4870C756.5010400@fngi.net>

Would like to stir up interest in creating a virtual world on 
Minneapolis' wireless network.  It need not rely on the Internet, as it 
would operate as a local broadband infrastructure.  Sun's Wonderland 
project seems to be far enough along to be attractive.
http://blogs.sun.com/wonderland/entry/postcard_from_wonderland_lecture_hall#comments

Send me an email, and let's discuss the possibilities.
Tom Poe, Charles City, Iowa


From admin at lctn.org  Mon Jul  7 09:47:13 2008
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 09:47:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <24492989.2611215441967562.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
Message-ID: <13261440.2631215442033024.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>


I need to find a 4TB NAS solution, and am curious if there is any good reason to change from using Freenas, and look at an enterprise solution? If so, what would be a recommended make & model? 





-- 
Raymond Norton 
LCTN 

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From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Jul  7 12:37:09 2008
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:37:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <13261440.2631215442033024.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
References: <24492989.2611215441967562.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
	<13261440.2631215442033024.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
Message-ID: <2c6699da0807071037i23891b83ib861e6b140eb89d9@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 9:47 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
>
> I need to find a 4TB NAS solution, and am curious if there is any good
> reason to change from using Freenas, and look at an enterprise solution? If
> so, what would be a recommended make & model?

"Enterprise" implies that you need guaranteed availability and
support.  FreeNAS offers neither.  An enterprise NAS is a well
supported box  running Windows storage server.  Nothing fancier than
that.  A whitebox running FreeNAS will give you the same features
(probably more) with more stability (FreeBSD kernel vs Windows kernel)
on lesser hardware.  But when it breaks, you're fixing it yourself.
HP and Dell sell their NAS products, that price tag includes support
and Windows licensing.

You of course could meet in the middle somewhere, buy yourself a well
supported box like an HP DL380 and put RHEL or SuSE pro, as both are
well supported and can do everything you'd ask your FreeNAS box to do.

What's your objective?

-Brian


From admin at lctn.org  Mon Jul  7 12:49:58 2008
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 12:49:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <20364643.2991215452688930.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
Message-ID: <19226335.3061215452998158.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>



>What's your objective? 

We provide educational videos to 20 school districts. I have had great results with Freenas, but have a bit of a concern implementing it in this application. If my homemade Freenas box goes down, it will be my problem. With an enterprise solution I would have support available. 




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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jul  7 13:19:56 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:19:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <19226335.3061215452998158.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
References: <19226335.3061215452998158.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807071303240.4470@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Raymond Norton wrote:

>> What's your objective?
>
> We provide educational videos to 20 school districts. I have had great 
> results with Freenas, but have a bit of a concern implementing it in 
> this application. If my homemade Freenas box goes down, it will be my 
> problem. With an enterprise solution I would have support available.


One of the arguments in favor of open-source software is that even though 
it is hard to make money selling it, a developer can make money supporting 
it, as can other skilled people.  So I'm wondering if there isn't any 
company offering FreeNAS support contracts.  I would say that such a 
company could provide "enterprise" FreeNAS.

I see this...

http://sourceforge.net/services/project_services.php?d-7959848-p=1&d-7959848-s=5&d-7959848-o=2&project_id=151951

...but I don't have time now to study it and read it.

Mike


From marc at e-skinner.net  Mon Jul  7 13:44:16 2008
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 13:44:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807071303240.4470@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <19226335.3061215452998158.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807071303240.4470@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48726400.1060103@e-skinner.net>

don't forget the NAS appliances out there - the snap servers run a 
version of Linux if you want to stay in the family.

http://www.snapserver.com/snap/en-US/Products/

they will give you enterprise support as well, and they have models from 
250GB to 82TB.






Mike Miller wrote:
> On Mon, 7 Jul 2008, Raymond Norton wrote:
>
>   
>>> What's your objective?
>>>       
>> We provide educational videos to 20 school districts. I have had great 
>> results with Freenas, but have a bit of a concern implementing it in 
>> this application. If my homemade Freenas box goes down, it will be my 
>> problem. With an enterprise solution I would have support available.
>>     
>
>
> One of the arguments in favor of open-source software is that even though 
> it is hard to make money selling it, a developer can make money supporting 
> it, as can other skilled people.  So I'm wondering if there isn't any 
> company offering FreeNAS support contracts.  I would say that such a 
> company could provide "enterprise" FreeNAS.
>
> I see this...
>
> http://sourceforge.net/services/project_services.php?d-7959848-p=1&d-7959848-s=5&d-7959848-o=2&project_id=151951
>
> ...but I don't have time now to study it and read it.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Mon Jul  7 13:47:03 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:47:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <2c6699da0807071037i23891b83ib861e6b140eb89d9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <24492989.2611215441967562.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org><13261440.2631215442033024.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
	<2c6699da0807071037i23891b83ib861e6b140eb89d9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0f1b01c8e061$d9b35fc0$e017a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>

> "Enterprise" implies that you need guaranteed availability and
> support.  FreeNAS offers neither.  An enterprise NAS is a well
> supported box  running Windows storage server.  Nothing fancier than
> that.  A whitebox running FreeNAS will give you the same features
> (probably more) with more stability (FreeBSD kernel vs Windows kernel)
> on lesser hardware.  But when it breaks, you're fixing it yourself.
> HP and Dell sell their NAS products, that price tag includes support
> and Windows licensing.

I am confused as to your reason for equating "enterprise" and "windows" as
if there are no enterprise supported NAS's that run non-windows operating
systems.

As one example there is the Snap Server http://www.snapserver.com/ which
runs GuardianOS (Linux)
http://www.snapserver.com/Snap/en-US/products/sw/integrated/gos/

I have gotten real knee deep with the OS and (owner at the time) Adaptec
support to resolve some partitioning/RAID problems. They were able to assist
and bring about complete data recovery thanks to their non-windows
enterprise support. The support is optional. 



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Mon Jul  7 13:59:48 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2008 13:59:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807071303240.4470@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <19226335.3061215452998158.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807071303240.4470@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <0f1f01c8e063$a1f15130$e017a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>

> One of the arguments in favor of open-source software is that even though 
> it is hard to make money selling it, a developer can make money supporting

> it, as can other skilled people.  So I'm wondering if there isn't any 
> company offering FreeNAS support contracts.  I would say that such a 
> company could provide "enterprise" FreeNAS.

Certainly you should consider any moral obligations or convictions but to
play devil's advocate, single or small loose teams of OS developers are more
likely to disband than a large corporation thus either killing support right
then and there or not offering any further support once existing contracts
expire. I am not advocating large corporations are any better. They
periodically go out of business or get bought/sold and services and things
can get dropped unexpectedly just the same as well. 

Nothing is guaranteed, not even taxes or death... 

This is a perfect segue into, back up your data if you care about your data.

Just my $.02



From tclug at mikerochford.com  Mon Jul  7 21:58:56 2008
From: tclug at mikerochford.com (Mike Rochford)
Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2008 21:58:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <13261440.2631215442033024.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
References: <13261440.2631215442033024.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
Message-ID: <4872D7F0.60401@mikerochford.com>

Raymond,

I would look into Netapp products. They are very easy to use have 
excellent features (snapmirror,snapshots,etc). These devices support 
many type of connections(CIFS,NFS, LUNS,etc). These devices will grow 
with your company. I currently work with a Netapp 3040a cluster.

-Mike

Raymond Norton wrote:
> 
> I need to find a 4TB NAS solution, and am curious if there is any good 
> reason to change from using Freenas, and look at an enterprise solution? 
> If so, what would be a recommended make & model?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Raymond Norton
> LCTN
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jul  8 10:03:58 2008
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 10:03:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18718.1215529438@skuld.wookimus.net>

I'm surprised that Knoppix is still around, honestly.  In any case, most
audio cards are supported in the 2.6 kernels using the ALSA drivers.  If
the resource websites for Fedora don't help you out with debugging the
audio card, give the ALSA website and resources a try.  The `alsaconf'
application should get you started.  Also try to use the `alsamixer'
application.  I've found that occasionally the only thing that needs to
happen is to get the mixer behaving correctly.

There is also some weird interaction between the old sound API and
drivers (OSS) and ALSA.  Download and install the `aumix' application.
Crank the mixer volumes all the way up for this OSS driver-based
application, then use the desktop-integrated ALSA mixer to fine-tune.

Audio is not fun, but once it is working, it works well.

Good luck.

Chad


From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Jul  8 10:24:02 2008
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2008 10:24:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT recommended enterprise NAS
In-Reply-To: <0f1b01c8e061$d9b35fc0$e017a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com> 
References: <24492989.2611215441967562.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org><13261440.2631215442033024.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
	<2c6699da0807071037i23891b83ib861e6b140eb89d9@mail.gmail.com>
	<0f1b01c8e061$d9b35fc0$e017a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <19188.1215530642@skuld.wookimus.net>

Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
> I am confused as to your reason for equating "enterprise" and
> "windows" as if there are no enterprise supported NAS's that run
> non-windows operating systems.

I'm confused with this assertion.  NetApp has their own OS called
DataONTAP that has nothing to do with Windows OS.  EMC's OS certainly
isn't Windows, including the one that they run on their entry-level AX-4
product.

If you're looking for a commercial NAS product, I would probably also
throw in with NetApp.  Their StoreVault product w/1TB disks will get you
12TB raw (up to about 9.5TB or so usable storage) for around $20-25k.
That includes the NFS/CIFS/iSCSI, and I think FC interfaces.

For the same price, you can buy an Aberdeen Linux or Windows based NAS
device with 40TB raw storage split over two arrays.  I bought two of
these w/o the NAS OS's and will use them for backup servers.

> As one example there is the Snap Server http://www.snapserver.com/
> which runs GuardianOS (Linux)
> http://www.snapserver.com/Snap/en-US/products/sw/integrated/gos/
> 
> I have gotten real knee deep with the OS and (owner at the time)
> Adaptec support to resolve some partitioning/RAID problems. They were
> able to assist and bring about complete data recovery thanks to their
> non-windows enterprise support. The support is optional.

Was it non-Windows being the primary factor, or the fact that Adaptec
makes a good OS-agnostic product?  Hardware-based RAID certainly helps
in recovery operations, but you won't get down to this level of hands-on
if you buy something like NetApp or EMC.  If something goes wrong, you
call support and they send someone out.

When someone says "Enterprise", I believe they generally imply a few
catagorical features of a product:

	    1. Highly dependable hardware
	    2. Five-9's (99.999% uptime, 5 minutes unplanned downtime per year)
	    3. 24x7x365x4hr-onsite support

It's all about risk management.  So, what risk are you willing to take?

Chad


From seg at haxxed.com  Wed Jul  9 11:20:35 2008
From: seg at haxxed.com (Callum Lerwick)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 11:20:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f0807021328k84e9675hd8ba55fc2b697c3b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f0807021328k84e9675hd8ba55fc2b697c3b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1218b5bc0807090920m67f4c5y565f013fc0af9bd1@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> Knoppix is a livecd version of linux you can download for free. You
> basically download the knoppix iso image, burn it to a CD (as you did
> the FC5 image), then boot off of it. It allows you to run a full
> non-destructive linux environment off of a CD. Unfortunately I'm
> leaving the office momentarily, so I don't have time to give you more
> details than that. Possibly someone else on the list will be able to,

Fedora has LiveCDs these days: (Scroll down below "install media")

http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora

Which gives you a nice non-destructive way to see if a newer Fedora
will run better.

You can also do a clean install (Back up your data!) directly from the
LiveCD environment. You can also use the disk to start a network
upgrade of an existing system, but that's only supported going from
the previous Fedora release to the one on the disk. Upgrading FC5 all
the way to F9 is not officially supported and I wouldn't recommend
doing it.


From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Jul  9 12:37:29 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2008 12:37:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sound Doesn't Work
In-Reply-To: <1218b5bc0807090920m67f4c5y565f013fc0af9bd1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80807021302s3c946d65u7f6209099ebf8d5f@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f0807021313t2d7e5c0ew7be549aff7aa5c1f@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80807021326wf6c6eb3s886dbb692e87173b@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f0807021328k84e9675hd8ba55fc2b697c3b@mail.gmail.com>
	<1218b5bc0807090920m67f4c5y565f013fc0af9bd1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80807091037mf178a71yb362cfc99da51cb2@mail.gmail.com>

Good idea. I've always wondered exactly what LiveCD's were.
Nick



On Wed, Jul 9, 2008 at 11:20 AM, Callum Lerwick <seg at haxxed.com> wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Knoppix is a livecd version of linux you can download for free. You
> > basically download the knoppix iso image, burn it to a CD (as you did
> > the FC5 image), then boot off of it. It allows you to run a full
> > non-destructive linux environment off of a CD. Unfortunately I'm
> > leaving the office momentarily, so I don't have time to give you more
> > details than that. Possibly someone else on the list will be able to,
>
> Fedora has LiveCDs these days: (Scroll down below "install media")
>
> http://fedoraproject.org/en/get-fedora
>
> Which gives you a nice non-destructive way to see if a newer Fedora
> will run better.
>
> You can also do a clean install (Back up your data!) directly from the
> LiveCD environment. You can also use the disk to start a network
> upgrade of an existing system, but that's only supported going from
> the previous Fedora release to the one on the disk. Upgrading FC5 all
> the way to F9 is not officially supported and I wouldn't recommend
> doing it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com
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From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Sat Jul 12 08:25:05 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:25:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807121325.m6CDP5n18867@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Dell PowerEdge Servers (2450, 1550, 1650)

I have three Dell PowerEdge servers I'm looking to sell, as I've upgraded.  These servers all work, and are currently in production.  

Dell PowerEdge 2450 - $150
Dell PowerEdge 1550 - $125
Dell PowerEdge 1650 - $125

The 1650 has a bad CD-ROM drive, but everything else works.  For more details, please see my Craig's List ad:

http://tinyurl.com/6pnhya

Email ecrist at secure-computing.net if you're interested.

Eric

Seller Email address: ecrist at secure-computing dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From thoth.serath at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 10:58:45 2008
From: thoth.serath at gmail.com (Chris Gloege)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:58:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
Message-ID: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>

i am working with a mpls public school teacher putting edubuntu server with
old 386 computers as thin clients.  i was wondering how the relationship
between the server kernel and the ? image the thin clients works...  is
there 2 separate images that get accesse?  we want to customize the image
the thin clients access for reasons not yet known to me.  any suggestions
for this really vague question?
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From nassarmu at beitsahour.net  Sat Jul 12 14:47:17 2008
From: nassarmu at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 14:47:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48790A45.3070108@beitsahour.net>

Chris Gloege wrote:
> i am working with a mpls public school teacher putting edubuntu server 
> with old 386 computers as thin clients.  i was wondering how the 
> relationship between the server kernel and the ? image the thin clients 
> works...  is there 2 separate images that get accesse?  we want to 
> customize the image the thin clients access for reasons not yet known to 
> me.  any suggestions for this really vague question?

In the latest version of Ubuntu (8.04, Hardy Heron) the ltsp client 
image gets mounted from the server via nbd and starts up as if it was a 
standalone system. you can have client images for any supported 
architecture though i have only tried i386, this is independent of the 
actual server architecture; the connection to the server is via ssh.

note though that i386 is an architecture label not a processor, i do not 
believe Ubuntu supports anything under a 486.

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sat Jul 12 15:41:39 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 15:41:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <48790A45.3070108@beitsahour.net>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48790A45.3070108@beitsahour.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807121536260.18449@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008, Munir Nassar wrote:

> note though that i386 is an architecture label not a processor, i do not 
> believe Ubuntu supports anything under a 486.


Ubuntu system requirements:

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/SystemRequirements

Bare Minimum requirements

It should be possible to get Ubuntu running on a system with the following 
minimum hardware specification, although it is unlikely that the system 
would run well. You should use the Alternate install CD to attempt such an 
installation.

     * 300 MHz x86 processor
     * 64 MB of system memory (RAM)
     * At least 4 GB of disk space (for full installation and swap space)
     * VGA graphics card capable of 640x480 resolution
     * CD-ROM drive or network card

That does not specifically preclude the 386 (80386 processor)...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X86

...but I don't think any ran at 300 MHz, and I think the fastest may have 
been 33 MHz, so then, yes, you would need a 486 to get to 300 MHz to meet 
"bare minimum requirements," and that would not allow you to do graphics.

I know there are distros that will run on 386, but I don't know if you can 
get X to work on such systems.

Mike


From andyzib at gmail.com  Sat Jul 12 18:32:32 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:32:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020807121632o22c68ca6v94b731e1b0b50e07@mail.gmail.com>

The clients have to boot up something.

Your clients boot off the network using the ROM from the network card.

The network card downloads a small boot image that is usually the
Linux kernel, and enough utilities to NFS mount an export from the
server. This is most likely what the client images are.

The XServer starts, and does an XDMCP query to the server.

The thin client is only the display. Even though the applications are
running on the server and using the server's CPU and memory, the thin
client is still doing the graphics processing. You might want
something a bit faster and a bit more modern than a 386...unless
you're doing just text console. :)

If it works on a 386 though...great.



-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sat Jul 12 22:06:25 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:06:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020807121632o22c68ca6v94b731e1b0b50e07@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3a54b020807121632o22c68ca6v94b731e1b0b50e07@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807122151470.18449@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sat, 12 Jul 2008, Andrew Zbikowski wrote:

> The clients have to boot up something.
>
> Your clients boot off the network using the ROM from the network card.
>
> The network card downloads a small boot image that is usually the Linux 
> kernel, and enough utilities to NFS mount an export from the server. 
> This is most likely what the client images are.
>
> The XServer starts, and does an XDMCP query to the server.
>
> The thin client is only the display. Even though the applications are 
> running on the server and using the server's CPU and memory, the thin 
> client is still doing the graphics processing. You might want something 
> a bit faster and a bit more modern than a 386...unless you're doing just 
> text console. :)


The X terminology is a little tricky because the "X server" is running on 
the machine that one would be tempted to call "the client" -- the usually 
smaller machine that connects to the larger more powerful machine.  So in 
the X system the thin client has to do a lot of work.

Another option is VNC.  With VNC the X client and X server both run on the 
big server machine and the smaller machine just runs a viewer that does 
very little processing.  But, for VNC on Linux, the VNCviewer is an X 
application which requires that an X server is running on the thin client. 
It might work a lot better on a minimal client system though, and it has 
some other advantages over XDMCP.

I don't know how low you can go in processing power and make this work. 
A 386 is so old (I think I started buying 486s in 1993) -- is it not 
possible to get 486 machines for free that can do this work for you? 
Even Pentium II machines are getting pretty long in the tooth and I'm sure 
many are being discarded.

Mike


From pjcrump at bitstream.net  Sat Jul 12 23:11:59 2008
From: pjcrump at bitstream.net (PJ Crump)
Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 23:11:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
Message-ID: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>

For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my house on port 
443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not working for 
anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all the usual things and 
nothing is out of line..  Then I started thinking that maybe Comcast is 
blocking it.. Thoughts?

Thanks - PJ


From jpschewe at mtu.net  Sun Jul 13 08:26:53 2008
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 08:26:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>

My secure site on a Comcast cable modem is still working from outside 
the Comcast network. I've had them block port 25 (both in and out) a 
number of times thinking they are protecting me from spam, so it's 
possible they decided you have spam on port 443 :)

PJ Crump wrote:
> For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my house on port 
> 443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not working for 
> anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all the usual things and 
> nothing is out of line..  Then I started thinking that maybe Comcast is 
> blocking it.. Thoughts?
>
> Thanks - PJ
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
signature.
See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels 
nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any 
powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all 
creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that 
is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39



From pjcrump at bitstream.net  Sun Jul 13 09:27:57 2008
From: pjcrump at bitstream.net (PJ Crump)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:27:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net> <487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>

Any suggestions as to how to get them to re-enable it?


Jon Schewe wrote:
> My secure site on a Comcast cable modem is still working from outside 
> the Comcast network. I've had them block port 25 (both in and out) a 
> number of times thinking they are protecting me from spam, so it's 
> possible they decided you have spam on port 443 :)
>
> PJ Crump wrote:
>> For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my house on 
>> port 443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not 
>> working for anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all the 
>> usual things and nothing is out of line..  Then I started thinking 
>> that maybe Comcast is blocking it.. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thanks - PJ
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>   
>



From canito at dalan.us  Sun Jul 13 09:54:25 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 09:54:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net> <487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>
	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>

If this is the case you have to speak to their "security" department.   
  I am not 100% sure customer service can initiate this for your, lets  
see..

http://security.comcast.net/get-help/contact-comcast-security.aspx

Give this a try.. Or if anyone knows different?

David


Quoting PJ Crump <pjcrump at bitstream.net>:

> Any suggestions as to how to get them to re-enable it?
>
>
> Jon Schewe wrote:
>> My secure site on a Comcast cable modem is still working from outside
>> the Comcast network. I've had them block port 25 (both in and out) a
>> number of times thinking they are protecting me from spam, so it's
>> possible they decided you have spam on port 443 :)
>>
>> PJ Crump wrote:
>>> For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my house on
>>> port 443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not
>>> working for anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all the
>>> usual things and nothing is out of line..  Then I started thinking
>>> that maybe Comcast is blocking it.. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Thanks - PJ
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



From pjcrump at bitstream.net  Sun Jul 13 11:13:28 2008
From: pjcrump at bitstream.net (PJ Crump)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:13:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>
	<487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>
	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>

What do you think I should tell them is the reason why I need the port 
opened up?




David Alanis wrote:
> If this is the case you have to speak to their "security" department.  
>  I am not 100% sure customer service can initiate this for your, lets 
> see..
>
> http://security.comcast.net/get-help/contact-comcast-security.aspx
>
> Give this a try.. Or if anyone knows different?
>
> David
>
>
> Quoting PJ Crump <pjcrump at bitstream.net>:
>
>> Any suggestions as to how to get them to re-enable it?
>>
>>
>> Jon Schewe wrote:
>>> My secure site on a Comcast cable modem is still working from outside
>>> the Comcast network. I've had them block port 25 (both in and out) a
>>> number of times thinking they are protecting me from spam, so it's
>>> possible they decided you have spam on port 443 :)
>>>
>>> PJ Crump wrote:
>>>> For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my house on
>>>> port 443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not
>>>> working for anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all the
>>>> usual things and nothing is out of line..  Then I started thinking
>>>> that maybe Comcast is blocking it.. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks - PJ
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.comVersion: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 
> 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM
>
>
>



From dniesen at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 11:22:37 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:22:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807122151470.18449@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3a54b020807121632o22c68ca6v94b731e1b0b50e07@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807122151470.18449@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70807130922h4e6ae800g2bbf5d1cd544868d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 10:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008, Andrew Zbikowski wrote:
>
>> The clients have to boot up something.
>>
>> Your clients boot off the network using the ROM from the network card.
>>
>> The network card downloads a small boot image that is usually the Linux
>> kernel, and enough utilities to NFS mount an export from the server.
>> This is most likely what the client images are.
>>
>> The XServer starts, and does an XDMCP query to the server.
>>
>> The thin client is only the display. Even though the applications are
>> running on the server and using the server's CPU and memory, the thin
>> client is still doing the graphics processing. You might want something
>> a bit faster and a bit more modern than a 386...unless you're doing just
>> text console. :)
>
>
> The X terminology is a little tricky because the "X server" is running on
> the machine that one would be tempted to call "the client" -- the usually
> smaller machine that connects to the larger more powerful machine.  So in
> the X system the thin client has to do a lot of work.
>
> Another option is VNC.  With VNC the X client and X server both run on the
> big server machine and the smaller machine just runs a viewer that does
> very little processing.  But, for VNC on Linux, the VNCviewer is an X
> application which requires that an X server is running on the thin client.
> It might work a lot better on a minimal client system though, and it has
> some other advantages over XDMCP.
>
> I don't know how low you can go in processing power and make this work.
> A 386 is so old (I think I started buying 486s in 1993) -- is it not
> possible to get 486 machines for free that can do this work for you?
> Even Pentium II machines are getting pretty long in the tooth and I'm sure
> many are being discarded.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


PII's are pretty easy for people to give up for nothing.  I offered
"free recycling" to folks a few years ago and ended up with a bunch of
working PII/PIII's that would make mighty fine thin clients.  I would
imagine it would be even easier waving a school flag.

I'd be happy to throw the word out to some friends, family, clients if
you're looking to collect some gear that would be easier to support
and more useful to the students.


-- 
Donovan Niesen


From dniesen at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 11:24:08 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 11:24:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net> <487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>
	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>
	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>
	<487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70807130924g42ca15e5u86d389d4dcda2b5a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 11:13 AM, PJ Crump <pjcrump at bitstream.net> wrote:
> What do you think I should tell them is the reason why I need the port
> opened up?
>
>
>
>
> David Alanis wrote:
>> If this is the case you have to speak to their "security" department.
>>  I am not 100% sure customer service can initiate this for your, lets
>> see..
>>
>> http://security.comcast.net/get-help/contact-comcast-security.aspx
>>
>> Give this a try.. Or if anyone knows different?
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> Quoting PJ Crump <pjcrump at bitstream.net>:
>>
>>> Any suggestions as to how to get them to re-enable it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jon Schewe wrote:
>>>> My secure site on a Comcast cable modem is still working from outside
>>>> the Comcast network. I've had them block port 25 (both in and out) a
>>>> number of times thinking they are protecting me from spam, so it's
>>>> possible they decided you have spam on port 443 :)
>>>>
>>>> PJ Crump wrote:
>>>>> For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my house on
>>>>> port 443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not
>>>>> working for anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all the
>>>>> usual things and nothing is out of line..  Then I started thinking
>>>>> that maybe Comcast is blocking it.. Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - PJ
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.comVersion: 8.0.138 / Virus Database:
>> 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


Accessing home webcam for monitoring sick grandmother?  Tug those heart strings.


-- 
Donovan Niesen


From jpschewe at mtu.net  Sun Jul 13 17:39:55 2008
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:39:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>
	<487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>
	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>
	<487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>

I tried to convince them to open port 25 and ended up just waiting it 
out, about 6 months or so and it got opened up. The problem is that the 
Terms of Use disallow servers.

PJ Crump wrote:
> What do you think I should tell them is the reason why I need the port 
> opened up?
>
>
>
>
> David Alanis wrote:
>> If this is the case you have to speak to their "security" 
>> department.   I am not 100% sure customer service can initiate this 
>> for your, lets see..
>>
>> http://security.comcast.net/get-help/contact-comcast-security.aspx
>>
>> Give this a try.. Or if anyone knows different?
>>
>> David
>>
>>
>> Quoting PJ Crump <pjcrump at bitstream.net>:
>>
>>> Any suggestions as to how to get them to re-enable it?
>>>
>>>
>>> Jon Schewe wrote:
>>>> My secure site on a Comcast cable modem is still working from outside
>>>> the Comcast network. I've had them block port 25 (both in and out) a
>>>> number of times thinking they are protecting me from spam, so it's
>>>> possible they decided you have spam on port 443 :)
>>>>
>>>> PJ Crump wrote:
>>>>> For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my house on
>>>>> port 443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not
>>>>> working for anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all the
>>>>> usual things and nothing is out of line..  Then I started thinking
>>>>> that maybe Comcast is blocking it.. Thoughts?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks - PJ
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.comVersion: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 
>> 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM
>>
>>
>>
>

-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
signature.
See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels 
nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any 
powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all 
creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that 
is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39



From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sun Jul 13 17:56:18 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 17:56:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>
	<487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>
	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>
	<487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net> <487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <476C6701-8ACE-4096-BD48-E726C9296017@secure-computing.net>

If you have business-class service, you're allowed to host servers  
now.  It's a bit more expensive, but you can even get /29, /28, or /27  
bit subnets, too.


Eric

On Jul 13, 2008, at 5:39 PM, Jon Schewe wrote:

> I tried to convince them to open port 25 and ended up just waiting it
> out, about 6 months or so and it got opened up. The problem is that  
> the
> Terms of Use disallow servers.
>
> PJ Crump wrote:
>> What do you think I should tell them is the reason why I need the  
>> port
>> opened up?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> David Alanis wrote:
>>> If this is the case you have to speak to their "security"
>>> department.   I am not 100% sure customer service can initiate this
>>> for your, lets see..
>>>
>>> http://security.comcast.net/get-help/contact-comcast-security.aspx
>>>
>>> Give this a try.. Or if anyone knows different?
>>>
>>> David
>>>
>>>
>>> Quoting PJ Crump <pjcrump at bitstream.net>:
>>>
>>>> Any suggestions as to how to get them to re-enable it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jon Schewe wrote:
>>>>> My secure site on a Comcast cable modem is still working from  
>>>>> outside
>>>>> the Comcast network. I've had them block port 25 (both in and  
>>>>> out) a
>>>>> number of times thinking they are protecting me from spam, so it's
>>>>> possible they decided you have spam on port 443 :)
>>>>>
>>>>> PJ Crump wrote:
>>>>>> For the last 7 years I have been hosting a website from my  
>>>>>> house on
>>>>>> port 443 (very low low usage - 20 hits a day) and today it's not
>>>>>> working for anyone coming in from the internet.  I checked all  
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> usual things and nothing is out of line..  Then I started  
>>>>>> thinking
>>>>>> that maybe Comcast is blocking it.. Thoughts?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks - PJ
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>>
>>>
>>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>>> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.comVersion: 8.0.138 / Virus  
>>> Database:
>>> 270.4.10/1549 - Release Date: 7/12/2008 4:31 PM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
> If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
> signature.
> See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.
>
> For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels
> nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any
> powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all
> creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that
> is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

---
Eric Crist






From tclug at jfoo.org  Sun Jul 13 19:42:48 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:42:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <476C6701-8ACE-4096-BD48-E726C9296017@secure-computing.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>	<487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>	<487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>
	<487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>
	<476C6701-8ACE-4096-BD48-E726C9296017@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <487AA108.3000603@jfoo.org>

Eric F Crist wrote:
> If you have business-class service, you're allowed to host servers  
> now.  It's a bit more expensive, but you can even get /29, /28, or /27  
> bit subnets, too.
> 
> 
> Eric
> 
> On Jul 13, 2008, at 5:39 PM, Jon Schewe wrote:
> 
>> I tried to convince them to open port 25 and ended up just waiting it
>> out, about 6 months or so and it got opened up. The problem is that  
>> the
>> Terms of Use disallow servers.

Or switch to DSL and ipHouse - I've been using this setup for years...

j



From thoth.serath at gmail.com  Sun Jul 13 19:51:35 2008
From: thoth.serath at gmail.com (Chris Gloege)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:51:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] thin clients
Message-ID: <7c055dc50807131751l57c01ed3uf1a4fa897fe96c42@mail.gmail.com>

we have all of the thin clients and a dual processor 2.?? processor server.
they boot fast and run good, some problems with video being choppy, we are
using vlc, but all is good on that front for the first round.  this is a
pilot project using 3 class rooms.  there will be more soon.  i guess he,
david, decided it would be unnecessary to manipulate the ltsp (?) client
image.
next steps:
1) figure out group policies for a 3 tier system
the kids get more permissions as they behave properly and loose them as they
don't.
2) we want to so screen casts on a mac using some sort of virtual machine.
i have wmware on my pc.  just not sure what works on mac as that is what
david wants to do it on.  i know how to make the final file smaller using
flash to make a swf file.  cam studio and audacity on a mac?  ffshow?  i
hate it that i don't know macs.  all my stuff is pulled out of garbage or
free with the exception of my fairly cheap laptop...
3) if we have to we can lock down the computers and firefox to prevent
installation of software and addons.  if you have ever been to dunn bros,
some have the systems so they are fresh for the next person, only we want
the students to be able to save files on the server within their usr files.
and i imagine we want to save bookmarks as well.
4) we want to know what the best educational software for linux is and
remove inferior apps. all suggestions will be appreciated.

here is a link to the blog david set up for this project:
http://groosd.blogspot.com/2008/07/next-step-details.html

we are looking for volunteers to help us.  please take a minute to check out
the blog as it has a list of things we want to accomplish.

also, we have a project where we take old computers and put ubuntu systems
in them and sell them at very low cost, right now $50 to students and their
families, offered through the school itself.  we want to make them pay
something so they appreciate them, plus we need to recover some costs for
gas to pick them up, and some money will be put aside to keep the project
going. he was originally thinking that we had to purchase these computers
and sell them at a much higher price.  i am sure we can get general mills,
cargil, target, etc. to provide us with some through their philanthropy
department.
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sun Jul 13 19:54:37 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 19:54:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487AA108.3000603@jfoo.org>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>	<487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>	<487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>
	<487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>
	<476C6701-8ACE-4096-BD48-E726C9296017@secure-computing.net>
	<487AA108.3000603@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <3ECB3BAE-2B2E-422A-89EB-C0CAD640FD04@secure-computing.net>

On Jul 13, 2008, at 7:42 PM, John Gateley wrote:

> Eric F Crist wrote:
>> If you have business-class service, you're allowed to host servers
>> now.  It's a bit more expensive, but you can even get /29, /28, or / 
>> 27
>> bit subnets, too.
>>
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> On Jul 13, 2008, at 5:39 PM, Jon Schewe wrote:
>>
>>> I tried to convince them to open port 25 and ended up just waiting  
>>> it
>>> out, about 6 months or so and it got opened up. The problem is that
>>> the
>>> Terms of Use disallow servers.
>
> Or switch to DSL and ipHouse - I've been using this setup for years...


I second the DSL w/ipHouse (www.iphouse.com).  They're fairly  
reasonable on their pricing, and I've not experienced any port  
blocking from them.  Also, the folks over there are pretty capable.
---
Eric Crist






From jpschewe at mtu.net  Sun Jul 13 21:12:42 2008
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 21:12:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <3ECB3BAE-2B2E-422A-89EB-C0CAD640FD04@secure-computing.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net>	<487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>	<487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>	<487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>	<476C6701-8ACE-4096-BD48-E726C9296017@secure-computing.net>	<487AA108.3000603@jfoo.org>
	<3ECB3BAE-2B2E-422A-89EB-C0CAD640FD04@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <487AB61A.2080309@mtu.net>

Eric F Crist wrote:
>> Or switch to DSL and ipHouse - I've been using this setup for years...
>>     
>
>
> I second the DSL w/ipHouse (www.iphouse.com).  They're fairly  
> reasonable on their pricing, and I've not experienced any port  
> blocking from them.  Also, the folks over there are pretty capable.
>   
The problem is that DSL isn't available for many of us and it's slower 
for the same price. Granted the ability to run servers is worth 
something too.

-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature.
See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.

For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,
neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor
depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from
the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39



From chewie at wookimus.net  Mon Jul 14 00:55:03 2008
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:55:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com> 
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <28146.1216014903@skuld.wookimus.net>

One thing to note about the 386 platform is that it's relatively
challenging to find a kernel that will run on less than 4MB of RAM.  The
2.4 and 2.6 kernels both required at least 4MB of RAM to run.  You could
squeak by with 2MB on the 2.2 kernel, but just barely.  The only way I
was able to get it to work was by having a swap partition already
defined on the disk.  You might be able to find an old version of Linux
and an old version of XFree86 that could run on the 386 platform.
That's pretty much all you need for an LTSP thin client.  You'll need
the kernel, optionally a dhcp or bootp client, the NFS client software,
and of course X.  This will probably be a challenge.

Now, there are hacks out there for "small" kernels, but many of these
are designed for embedded devices that start out with 8MB of RAM
minimum.  For 386, you're going to have to open the vault and look for
dusty old apps.

You would do far better to procure a stack of Pentium class machines.
Buy either network bootable NIC's or Compaq flash cards to house the
minimal kernel and root software.

For the truely minimalistic, check out:

http://chippc.com/thin-clients/jack-pc/

"Wall socket PC"...  Totally awesome.

G'night!

Chad


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Mon Jul 14 08:45:46 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 09:45:46 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net><487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net><20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us><487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net>
	<487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6E9B590@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

I have a web site on a Comcast dynamic ip (thank-you www.dyndns.org for
a free domain that follows my dynamic ip).  This morning, port 443 is
working fine as is port 25 (smtp).  However, because many mail-servers
(including Gmail) reject traffic from dynamic addresses, I relay
outbound mail through smtp.comcast.net.


Jon Schewe wrote:
> The problem is that the Terms of Use disallow servers.

When I subscribed last year, I read all the fine print on the paperwork
the installer had me sign.  There was no language regarding home
servers.  Since Comcast could block, I assume it's okay (wink-wink).




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Jul 14 08:49:30 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:49:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <28146.1216014903@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<28146.1216014903@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807140849040.15741@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Jul 2008, Chad Walstrom wrote:

> For the truely minimalistic, check out:
>
> http://chippc.com/thin-clients/jack-pc/
>
> "Wall socket PC"...  Totally awesome.


Those are cool but I guess they cost about $400.

Mike


From iipreca at hotmail.com  Mon Jul 14 12:21:42 2008
From: iipreca at hotmail.com (G J)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:21:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807140849040.15741@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<28146.1216014903@skuld.wookimus.net> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807140849040.15741@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <BLU133-W37078C30227378110BE50AA8D0@phx.gbl>




> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:49:30 -0500
> From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] server thin client
> 
> On Mon, 14 Jul 2008, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> 
> > For the truely minimalistic, check out:
> >
> > http://chippc.com/thin-clients/jack-pc/
> >
> > "Wall socket PC"...  Totally awesome.
> 
> 
> Those are cool but I guess they cost about $400.
> 
> Mike
> 

And you need a POE Switch to power them.

Jesse



_________________________________________________________________
The i?m Talkaton. Can 30-days of conversation change the world?
http://www.imtalkathon.com/?source=EML_WLH_Talkathon_ChangeWorld
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Mon Jul 14 12:34:38 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:34:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <BLU133-W37078C30227378110BE50AA8D0@phx.gbl>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<28146.1216014903@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807140849040.15741@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<BLU133-W37078C30227378110BE50AA8D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020807141034l122a9938q9fa1fe17124ccf25@mail.gmail.com>

> And you need a POE Switch to power them.

I just recently had to deal with PoE switches for a new office that
was using VoIP phones. We have a Cicso 24 port switch for the core,
and a number of Dell Power Connect 3548Ps connected to the Cisco. The
price difference between the normal Dell 3548 and the PoE Dell 3548
wasn't overly significant, so we went with simplicity and all client
ports are also PoE ports. The 3548s are only 10/100 except for uplink
ports, but that was fine for this office.

The in-jack thin client isn't going to be ideal everyone, but now that
I've seen it I want! :)

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Jul 14 12:34:18 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 12:34:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <BLU133-W37078C30227378110BE50AA8D0@phx.gbl>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<28146.1216014903@skuld.wookimus.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807140849040.15741@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<BLU133-W37078C30227378110BE50AA8D0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <65C4C76E-99EA-44D9-9FE2-67E8B684849C@secure-computing.net>

On Jul 14, 2008, at 12:21 PM, G J wrote:

> > Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 08:49:30 -0500
> > From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu
> > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] server thin client
> >
> > On Mon, 14 Jul 2008, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> >
> > > For the truely minimalistic, check out:
> > >
> > > http://chippc.com/thin-clients/jack-pc/
> > >
> > > "Wall socket PC"... Totally awesome.
> >
> >
> > Those are cool but I guess they cost about $400.
>
> And you need a POE Switch to power them.


That part is trivial, you can get POE injectors for relatively cheap.   
However, if you're deploying a bunch of them, POE isn't a bad thing.

---
Eric Crist


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Wed Jul 16 14:30:45 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2008 14:30:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807161930.m6GJUjj25488@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Free

Subject: Ferro Resonant Transformer

UPS - Best FerroResonantTransformer

Older model, great shape, requires a 12v battery.


Seller Email address: joe_hesse at actcx dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From dniesen at gmail.com  Thu Jul 17 14:51:09 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 14:51:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: SIP/IAX providers?
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>

I've been using Teliax for a while now and lately their level of
service has dwindled.  My basic SIP connection from home will maybe
receive every other call, their support is convinced I'm using an
Asterisk box and points me to the voip-info.org wiki for help although
I've repeatedly gave them detailed info on the SIP device I use.  They
are now completely ignoring my phone calls and email so it is time to
move on.

The price and features of Teliax were awesome and they were very
helpful when I first signed up.  I'm hoping to find another provider
with a similar cost structure (pay per minute with no or limited
monthly fees) that can support both SIP and IAX.  Any favorites out
there?

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From j at packetgod.com  Thu Jul 17 15:25:16 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:25:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: SIP/IAX providers?
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0807171325r5f8ce3f2yae8bf0941dc6db5@mail.gmail.com>

Check out voicepulse connect (connect.voicepulse.com).  They are cheap, do
IAX and SIP, give you 4 incoming and 4 outgoing lines, and generally work.
I had some issues due to some ISP feuds a while back but it was nothing they
could do about it.  Now they are only a few AS hops away so no problem.

They are very Asterisk friendly and have pre-built configs for you to load
up.  Beyond that its a pretty basic service, almost more geared towards
resellers but they have no limits you need to meet so even if your bill is
only 11$ a month you get the same rates as the big players.

--j


On 7/17/08, Donovan <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I've been using Teliax for a while now and lately their level of
> service has dwindled.  My basic SIP connection from home will maybe
> receive every other call, their support is convinced I'm using an
> Asterisk box and points me to the voip-info.org wiki for help although
> I've repeatedly gave them detailed info on the SIP device I use.  They
> are now completely ignoring my phone calls and email so it is time to
> move on.
>
> The price and features of Teliax were awesome and they were very
> helpful when I first signed up.  I'm hoping to find another provider
> with a similar cost structure (pay per minute with no or limited
> monthly fees) that can support both SIP and IAX.  Any favorites out
> there?
>
> --
> Donovan Niesen
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From dniesen at gmail.com  Thu Jul 17 15:49:33 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 15:49:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: SIP/IAX providers?
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0807171325r5f8ce3f2yae8bf0941dc6db5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807171325r5f8ce3f2yae8bf0941dc6db5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70807171349p665f6732xf65e8974b87cf7ca@mail.gmail.com>

Seems like a pretty reasonable and flexible service.  Right now they
don't have DIDs in the 612 area code and can't port my existing
numbers but I signed up to be notified when they do.  I'm going to
keep looking for alternatives in the meantime but will keep these guys
in mind.

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:25 PM, J Cruit <j at packetgod.com> wrote:
> Check out voicepulse connect (connect.voicepulse.com).  They are cheap, do
> IAX and SIP, give you 4 incoming and 4 outgoing lines, and generally work.
> I had some issues due to some ISP feuds a while back but it was nothing they
> could do about it.  Now they are only a few AS hops away so no problem.
>
> They are very Asterisk friendly and have pre-built configs for you to load
> up.  Beyond that its a pretty basic service, almost more geared towards
> resellers but they have no limits you need to meet so even if your bill is
> only 11$ a month you get the same rates as the big players.
>
> --j
>
>
> On 7/17/08, Donovan <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I've been using Teliax for a while now and lately their level of
>> service has dwindled.  My basic SIP connection from home will maybe
>> receive every other call, their support is convinced I'm using an
>> Asterisk box and points me to the voip-info.org wiki for help although
>> I've repeatedly gave them detailed info on the SIP device I use.  They
>> are now completely ignoring my phone calls and email so it is time to
>> move on.
>>
>> The price and features of Teliax were awesome and they were very
>> helpful when I first signed up.  I'm hoping to find another provider
>> with a similar cost structure (pay per minute with no or limited
>> monthly fees) that can support both SIP and IAX.  Any favorites out
>> there?
>>
>> --
>> Donovan Niesen
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
Donovan Niesen


From j at packetgod.com  Thu Jul 17 16:02:15 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 16:02:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: SIP/IAX providers?
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70807171349p665f6732xf65e8974b87cf7ca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807171325r5f8ce3f2yae8bf0941dc6db5@mail.gmail.com>
	<47f4d5e70807171349p665f6732xf65e8974b87cf7ca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0807171402k6956eb96gb321ed44580a7d41@mail.gmail.com>

I forgot that I had already referred somone to them a few months ago and
they reported back that there were no 612s so its possible you may be
waiting a while.  612 is so out of style anyways, go with something cool
like New York or Seattle :)

The cool thing about these guys and many services like them is you can get
any number you want across the country or even multiple numbers.  Great for
job hunting in other cities or giving your long distance relatives a local
number to call.

--j


On 7/17/08, Donovan <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Seems like a pretty reasonable and flexible service.  Right now they
> don't have DIDs in the 612 area code and can't port my existing
> numbers but I signed up to be notified when they do.  I'm going to
> keep looking for alternatives in the meantime but will keep these guys
> in mind.
>
> On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 3:25 PM, J Cruit <j at packetgod.com> wrote:
> > Check out voicepulse connect (connect.voicepulse.com).  They are cheap,
> do
> > IAX and SIP, give you 4 incoming and 4 outgoing lines, and generally
> work.
> > I had some issues due to some ISP feuds a while back but it was nothing
> they
> > could do about it.  Now they are only a few AS hops away so no problem.
> >
> > They are very Asterisk friendly and have pre-built configs for you to
> load
> > up.  Beyond that its a pretty basic service, almost more geared towards
> > resellers but they have no limits you need to meet so even if your bill
> is
> > only 11$ a month you get the same rates as the big players.
> >
> > --j
> >
> >
> > On 7/17/08, Donovan <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I've been using Teliax for a while now and lately their level of
> >> service has dwindled.  My basic SIP connection from home will maybe
> >> receive every other call, their support is convinced I'm using an
> >> Asterisk box and points me to the voip-info.org wiki for help although
> >> I've repeatedly gave them detailed info on the SIP device I use.  They
> >> are now completely ignoring my phone calls and email so it is time to
> >> move on.
> >>
> >> The price and features of Teliax were awesome and they were very
> >> helpful when I first signed up.  I'm hoping to find another provider
> >> with a similar cost structure (pay per minute with no or limited
> >> monthly fees) that can support both SIP and IAX.  Any favorites out
> >> there?
> >>
> >> --
> >> Donovan Niesen
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Donovan Niesen
>
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From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Thu Jul 17 17:37:39 2008
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:37:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Foresight Linux - Topic @PenguinsUnbound Linux Meeting
 July 26th, 2008
Message-ID: <487FC9B3.6060105@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.net meeting
will be Saturday July 26th, 2008 at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm

(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com/Location_for_Meetings
for directions and more info.)

We will be talking with
Paul Culter about Foresight Linux (http://www.foresightlinux.org/)

 From their webpage;
     Foresight is a desktop operating system featuring an intuitive user 
interface and a showcase of the latest desktop software, giving users 
convenient and enjoyable access to their music, photos, videos, 
documents, and Internet resources.

Thanks, hope to see you there.

==>brian.


From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com  Thu Jul 17 20:57:29 2008
From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (Kelly Black)
Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:57:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: SIP/IAX providers?
References: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080718015729.GA5260@mail.hsd1.mn.comcast.net>

On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 02:51:09PM -0500, Donovan wrote:
> I've been using Teliax for a while now and lately their level of
> service has dwindled.  My basic SIP connection from home will maybe
> receive every other call, their support is convinced I'm using an
> Asterisk box and points me to the voip-info.org wiki for help although
> I've repeatedly gave them detailed info on the SIP device I use.  They
> are now completely ignoring my phone calls and email so it is time to
> move on.

I have used Teliax for a while and found the same thing (packet loss on
and off to the 4 or so servers they run and not much notice when things 
are on the fritz).

> The price and features of Teliax were awesome and they were very
> helpful when I first signed up.  I'm hoping to find another provider
> with a similar cost structure (pay per minute with no or limited
> monthly fees) that can support both SIP and IAX.  Any favorites out
> there?

I have just started using les.net (not for the timid as this seems to be
a very small shop).  The prices are right (ip term at $0.015 / min and
did's for $3.99 / month flat rate or $0.99 for per-minute).  The only problems
I have had so far are the conversion rate to Canadian dollars, and working the
ticket system.  If you want cheap, this is good IAX and SIP term.  If you need
lots of support, les.net is probably not your cup of tea.  Also, no e911 service
as it is a Canadian company.  On the plus side though, there are automated notices
for outages or issues and the ability to set low balance reminders etc...

Kelly
KB0GBJ


From tclug at natecarlson.com  Fri Jul 18 09:22:10 2008
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 09:22:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: SIP/IAX providers?
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807180920330.22334@iron.msp.technicality.org>

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Donovan wrote:
> The price and features of Teliax were awesome and they were very helpful 
> when I first signed up.  I'm hoping to find another provider with a 
> similar cost structure (pay per minute with no or limited monthly fees) 
> that can support both SIP and IAX.  Any favorites out there?

I'm using:

Bandwidth.com:
Structured more like traditional PSTN service; you pay per-channel, and 
get unlimited local calling. I like them because you can actually get 
blocks of DID's without paying a bundle.

Junction Networks:
Structured more like Teliax; more expensive, but also more reliable.  ;)

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From dniesen at gmail.com  Fri Jul 18 10:50:24 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:50:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: SIP/IAX providers?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807180920330.22334@iron.msp.technicality.org>
References: <47f4d5e70807171251u8ffd4a8t7a17dcbf038345e5@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.10.0807180920330.22334@iron.msp.technicality.org>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70807180850k6bf8eea1r453dae16c57d9935@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 18, 2008 at 9:22 AM, Nate Carlson <tclug at natecarlson.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008, Donovan wrote:
>>
>> The price and features of Teliax were awesome and they were very helpful
>> when I first signed up.  I'm hoping to find another provider with a similar
>> cost structure (pay per minute with no or limited monthly fees) that can
>> support both SIP and IAX.  Any favorites out there?
>
> I'm using:
>
> Bandwidth.com:
> Structured more like traditional PSTN service; you pay per-channel, and get
> unlimited local calling. I like them because you can actually get blocks of
> DID's without paying a bundle.
>
> Junction Networks:
> Structured more like Teliax; more expensive, but also more reliable.  ;)
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
> |       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

I just signed up with Junction Networks and am pointing my old numbers
from Teliax to them.  Literally the minute my account was activated I
got a call from one of their reps asking if I had any questions or
needed help with anything.  I had a few questions and the rep was very
knowledgeable.  Hopefully they've cloned that rep within their
company.

Took me all of 5 minutes to create an account, get a phone number, set
up my SIP device and make calls (I type fast).  My initial impression
is that there is a lot more polish all around.  I'm going to give them
a few weeks then port my numbers over if things are looking good.

Thanks for the great recommendations everyone!

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Jul 18 19:21:23 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 19:21:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT - Bill at MPC died
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEEJMNAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

FYI - Bill, the guy who ran the retail shop at MPC in Eagan, died a few days ago.  I didn't know him well, or even know his last
name, but had been a customer for maybe more than ten years and occasionally saw him at WiFi hotspots in the area.  He was a good
troop.  The shop will continue with the same limited hours, but is kinda chaotic now with "green troops" trying to do sales.


Chuck



From aaronmill1 at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 09:47:01 2008
From: aaronmill1 at gmail.com (Aaron)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 09:47:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Certifications
Message-ID: <1ec5e5750807210747n73ab7379m159192622ce6deb1@mail.gmail.com>

A lot of you guys are in the IT industry so I thought it might be a good
idea to post here to see what experiences people have had with getting their
IT certifications locally. I'm looking at getting some of these under my
belt so I can move off of the dreaded Hell Desk onto more engaging and
exciting areas. So I guess my questions are this:

1. Have you gotten any certifications locally before (A+, MCSE, RHCT, CCNA,
etc, etc)?
2. Where?
3. Did you take classes or just tests? Which would you recommend doing?
4. Any literature that you remember helping you out?
5. What was your general feeling of the process?

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Aaron
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Jul 21 10:01:49 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:01:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Certifications
In-Reply-To: <1ec5e5750807210747n73ab7379m159192622ce6deb1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1ec5e5750807210747n73ab7379m159192622ce6deb1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F9DD5318-F6D1-4E37-BDE8-5418C97B9783@secure-computing.net>

On Jul 21, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Aaron wrote:

> A lot of you guys are in the IT industry so I thought it might be a  
> good idea to post here to see what experiences people have had with  
> getting their IT certifications locally. I'm looking at getting some  
> of these under my belt so I can move off of the dreaded Hell Desk  
> onto more engaging and exciting areas. So I guess my questions are  
> this:
>
> 1. Have you gotten any certifications locally before (A+, MCSE,  
> RHCT, CCNA, etc, etc)?
> 2. Where?
> 3. Did you take classes or just tests? Which would you recommend  
> doing?
> 4. Any literature that you remember helping you out?
> 5. What was your general feeling of the process?
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Here's my small tidbit of advice, limited as my experience may be.  I  
have my CCNA - it did nothing for me other than make me fairly  
knowledgeable.  If you end up in a network engineering roll, higher  
Cisco certs will probably be good for you.  As far as MCSE, most IT  
folks I know laugh at it.  I don't know if Windows shops are different  
- never working in one myself.

Other than that, experience is your best friend.  It would probably  
serve you well to get out of the big-company environment and go small  
time for a couple years.  There are a ton of small 10-50 man shops  
around in need of full-time IT, even if it's only one person.  Get in  
somewhere like that and do a good job.  Anyone, given some free time,  
can get a certification.

---
Eric Crist






From mukul.dharwadkar at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 10:37:42 2008
From: mukul.dharwadkar at gmail.com (Mukul Dharwadkar)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 10:37:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Certifications
In-Reply-To: <F9DD5318-F6D1-4E37-BDE8-5418C97B9783@secure-computing.net>
References: <1ec5e5750807210747n73ab7379m159192622ce6deb1@mail.gmail.com>
	<F9DD5318-F6D1-4E37-BDE8-5418C97B9783@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <a7e4fdbc0807210837t75311f9fv5e88ac6797250cac@mail.gmail.com>

As far as I am concerned, I think going with independant vendor independant
certifications like CISA, CISSP, PMP, ITIL etc are the way to go. I myself
hold MCP, CISA and PMP and think that the non-vendor specific certification
are more beneficial than vendor specific.

On 7/21/08, Eric F Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net> wrote:
>
> On Jul 21, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Aaron wrote:
>
> > A lot of you guys are in the IT industry so I thought it might be a
> > good idea to post here to see what experiences people have had with
> > getting their IT certifications locally. I'm looking at getting some
> > of these under my belt so I can move off of the dreaded Hell Desk
> > onto more engaging and exciting areas. So I guess my questions are
> > this:
> >
> > 1. Have you gotten any certifications locally before (A+, MCSE,
> > RHCT, CCNA, etc, etc)?
> > 2. Where?
> > 3. Did you take classes or just tests? Which would you recommend
> > doing?
> > 4. Any literature that you remember helping you out?
> > 5. What was your general feeling of the process?
> >
> > Any help would be greatly appreciated!
>
> Here's my small tidbit of advice, limited as my experience may be.  I
> have my CCNA - it did nothing for me other than make me fairly
> knowledgeable.  If you end up in a network engineering roll, higher
> Cisco certs will probably be good for you.  As far as MCSE, most IT
> folks I know laugh at it.  I don't know if Windows shops are different
> - never working in one myself.
>
> Other than that, experience is your best friend.  It would probably
> serve you well to get out of the big-company environment and go small
> time for a couple years.  There are a ton of small 10-50 man shops
> around in need of full-time IT, even if it's only one person.  Get in
> somewhere like that and do a good job.  Anyone, given some free time,
> can get a certification.
>
> ---
> Eric Crist
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Smile!!! :) It improves your face value...

Visit me at
http://www.dharwadkar.com
http://www.dharwadkar.org
Sister Site:
http://www.saraswatibhuvan.org
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From crumley at belka.space.umn.edu  Mon Jul 14 10:29:09 2008
From: crumley at belka.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2008 10:29:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] server thin client
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807121536260.18449@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <7c055dc50807120858m7974145drb1fd34623558a33d@mail.gmail.com>
	<48790A45.3070108@beitsahour.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807121536260.18449@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20080714102909.A27217@baker.space.umn.edu>

On Sat, Jul 12, 2008 at 03:41:39PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2008, Munir Nassar wrote:
> 
> > note though that i386 is an architecture label not a processor, i do not 
> > believe Ubuntu supports anything under a 486.

<snip> 
> ...but I don't think any ran at 300 MHz, and I think the fastest may have 
> been 33 MHz, so then, yes, you would need a 486 to get to 300 MHz to meet 
> "bare minimum requirements," and that would not allow you to do graphics.

Try a Pentium II, I think.  I have a Pentium MMX that runs at 200
MHz and I think that it was near the end of the line for plain
Pentiums.

-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/ 
Never laugh at live dragons  |


From andyzib at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 11:06:27 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:06:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Certifications
In-Reply-To: <F9DD5318-F6D1-4E37-BDE8-5418C97B9783@secure-computing.net>
References: <1ec5e5750807210747n73ab7379m159192622ce6deb1@mail.gmail.com>
	<F9DD5318-F6D1-4E37-BDE8-5418C97B9783@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020807210906h38f8053ei307407bb91c96eb8@mail.gmail.com>

MCSE without experience or a degree is rather worthless. Having MCSE
on your resume is good for getting you past HR, but you need to have
something backing it up.

The CompTIA (A+, Network+, etc) certs are about the same. They qualify
you for entry level IT work but not much else.

Around our office ITIL is the big push.

There is also some value in CISA and CISSP. Any PFY
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_Operator_From_Hell) can get a
Windows server up and running, but you do have to have some knowledge
of what your doing in order to get things secure and keep them that
way. If you are looking for work from financial, health care, or any
company who has to deal with federal regulations around data
privacy/security such certs are going to be helpful for getting your
foot in the door.

PMP while valuable is something to peruse once you have experience
with other things. There is nothing worse than a Project Manager who
is clueless about the technology involved in the project they are
managing.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 11:28:56 2008
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:28:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] thin clients
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc50807131751l57c01ed3uf1a4fa897fe96c42@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c055dc50807131751l57c01ed3uf1a4fa897fe96c42@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f0807210928s195a6ed3o1f76215d47cccc59@mail.gmail.com>

> 1) figure out group policies for a 3 tier system
> the kids get more permissions as they behave properly and loose them as they
> don't.
> 3) if we have to we can lock down the computers and firefox to prevent
> installation of software and addons.  if you have ever been to dunn bros,
> some have the systems so they are fresh for the next person, only we want
> the students to be able to save files on the server within their usr files.
> and i imagine we want to save bookmarks as well.

Pessulus combined with Sabayon (for Gnome) will be very handy for
these two items.  You can create fairly complicated lockdown policies,
and then assign students to different groups for their permissions
levels.  I've only dabbled with the tools briefly, but it's fairly
obvious that they're designed for exactly this sort of thing, so you
should be able to figure it out pretty easily I would guess.

-- 
Tony Yarusso
http://tonyyarusso.com/


From j at packetgod.com  Mon Jul 21 11:51:34 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 11:51:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Certifications
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020807210906h38f8053ei307407bb91c96eb8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1ec5e5750807210747n73ab7379m159192622ce6deb1@mail.gmail.com>
	<F9DD5318-F6D1-4E37-BDE8-5418C97B9783@secure-computing.net>
	<e3a54b020807210906h38f8053ei307407bb91c96eb8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0807210951r7ffbb02bs6ca8416677332282@mail.gmail.com>

Well I think if you are interested in networking the CCNA does provide a
fairly good basic understanding of it without being too Cisco focused.  I'd
certainly recommend it and I think that it can help you get junior
positions.  As far as where to get it I'm not too much help as I studied for
and took the test in one day and then got my CCNP in the next couple of
weeks to meet a deadline for my company.  But I had been working in
networking around 10 years at that point.

There really isn't a whole lot to the CCNA, you could just go out and get a
book and perhaps buy an old used router to play with and be good to go.

I'd say that the MCSE and CCNA are very important to getting conversations
started for positions and while most experienced folk know they don't always
mean much they do show some effort on learning and progressing.  And
especially in junior positions they are what can help you get started in
that area, I've hired a few junior techs based on the fact that they had
some general computer experience and said they got their CCNA to try to
break into networking.  For me the fact that they had some computer aptitude
and showed that they were eager to learn was the most important fact in the
hiring.

--j (CISSP, CCNP, JNCIA, RSACE, ACE, Etc...)


On 7/21/08, Andrew Zbikowski <andyzib at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> MCSE without experience or a degree is rather worthless. Having MCSE
> on your resume is good for getting you past HR, but you need to have
> something backing it up.
>
> The CompTIA (A+, Network+, etc) certs are about the same. They qualify
> you for entry level IT work but not much else.
>
> Around our office ITIL is the big push.
>
> There is also some value in CISA and CISSP. Any PFY
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastard_Operator_From_Hell) can get a
> Windows server up and running, but you do have to have some knowledge
> of what your doing in order to get things secure and keep them that
> way. If you are looking for work from financial, health care, or any
> company who has to deal with federal regulations around data
> privacy/security such certs are going to be helpful for getting your
> foot in the door.
>
> PMP while valuable is something to peruse once you have experience
> with other things. There is nothing worse than a Project Manager who
> is clueless about the technology involved in the project they are
> managing.
>
> --
> Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
> IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From thoth.serath at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 17:50:48 2008
From: thoth.serath at gmail.com (Chris G.)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 17:50:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] growing communities of scientists
Message-ID: <7c055dc50807211550xf147669sf992a666d7c2294a@mail.gmail.com>

here is the wiki for the minneapolis schools edubuntu server and thin
clients setup:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MinnesotaTeam/Education

and the blog:

http://groosd.blogspot.com/

i am the geek in black.

thank you all for your advice, much of which is getting used, all of which
is appreciated!

another question...
screen casts.  using ffshow or cam studio with wine?  any suggestions???
can't get cam studio to start under wine.  i admit i haven't checked to see
if they make a linux version.
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From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Mon Jul 21 19:12:40 2008
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:12:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] growing communities of scientists
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc50807211550xf147669sf992a666d7c2294a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7c055dc50807211550xf147669sf992a666d7c2294a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f0807211712xb2dd5c8sc92fb5a745d19a3a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Chris G. <thoth.serath at gmail.com> wrote:
> another question...
> screen casts.  using ffshow or cam studio with wine?  any suggestions???
> can't get cam studio to start under wine.  i admit i haven't checked to see
> if they make a linux version.

Alan Pope (popey) and team have made a slew of screencasts using the
process written up on
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts, so that
would be a good place to start.

-- 
Tony Yarusso
http://tonyyarusso.com/


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Mon Jul 21 19:42:03 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2008 19:42:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT - Bill at MPC died
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEEJMNAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEEJMNAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.1.00.0807211938330.20757@beer.tclug.org>

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
> FYI - Bill, the guy who ran the retail shop at MPC in Eagan, died a few 
> days ago.  I didn't know him well, or even know his last name, but had 
> been a customer for maybe more than ten years and occasionally saw him 
> at WiFi hotspots in the area.  He was a good troop.  The shop will 
> continue with the same limited hours, but is kinda chaotic now with 
> "green troops" trying to do sales.

  Awww, man.  I wondered why he wasn't there the last time I stopped by. 
He was a nice guy; I'm sorry to see him go.
  Thanks for the heads-up.

      Jima


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Tue Jul 22 17:59:15 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:59:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807222259.m6MMxFa01800@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: 1U rack mount kits

1U Server (4 post) or relay (2 post) rack mount kit
from racksolutions.com part# 1UKIT-109
Qty 2, unopened boxes
details at: http:// www.racksolutions.com /rack-rails.shtml

These sell for $99 each + shipping through racksolutions.com.

Selling both for $100 CASH ONLY.
email to arrange pickup in SW Mpls.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Tue Jul 22 18:01:25 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:01:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807222301.m6MN1Ps02898@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Free

Subject: 5 Large Dell Computer boxes

5 Large Dell Computer boxes
Great if you need to ship a server or other large items.
Some may have foam packing in them or minor metal parts.

FREE
email to arrange pick up in SW Mpls. 

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Tue Jul 22 19:01:09 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:01:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807230001.m6N019P05825@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: SATA-SCSI bridge

Acard SCSI-SATA bridge 
part# AEC-7730
Attach SATA drive to SCSI system.
Original box, manual
See also http:// dl.acard.com/ manual/english/aec7730.pdf 
Qty 2
These retail for $99 + shipping.
$50/pair or $25/ea CASH ONLY
Email to arrange pick up in SW Mpls.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Tue Jul 22 19:35:18 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 19:35:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807230035.m6N0ZIQ08402@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Dell PowerEdge 2300 server

Dell PowerEdge 2300 server
Dual PII 400Mhz, 1G RAM, CDROM, 3c905, Adaptec controllers: 7890, 7860, 2940UW
6 SCSI drives: 2 x 9 GB, 2 x 36 GB, 1 x 18 GB, 1 x 4.5 GB
$175 CASH ONLY
Email to arrange pick up in SW Mpls.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Tue Jul 22 20:00:10 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:00:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807230100.m6N10Ao12032@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Dell SCSI drive trays

Dell SCSI drive trays

part# 1F912 with 4 screws per tray
fits Dell 1550, 1650, 1750, others...
Lot of 11 for $125 CASH ONLY

part# 5649C Assy# 4649C with 4 screws per tray
fits Dell 2300,2350, 2400, 2450, others...
Lot of 6 for $10 CASH ONLY

Email to arrange pick up in SW Mpls.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Tue Jul 22 20:14:02 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 20:14:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807230114.m6N1E2e13724@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Dell hard drive tray screws

Dell hard drive tray screws

13 sets (4/set)
fits Dell Hot Swap Tray 1F912, 5649, 9D988, 4649C others...
$15 CASH ONLY
Email to arrange pick up in SW Mpls.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From leif.t.johnson at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 11:27:09 2008
From: leif.t.johnson at gmail.com (Leif Johnson)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:27:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] donate old computers?
Message-ID: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Do you guys know of any groups that would accept donations of old, yet
working, computers?  We have a couple in the 700Mhz -- 1 Ghz processor
range that we are looking to get rid of.

thanks,
leif


From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 13:00:44 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:00:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] donate old computers?
In-Reply-To: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80807231100w46113346x39031fc48be990e8@mail.gmail.com>

There's a group called SEACC
http://seacc-mn.org/
My friend works there. They have limited funds, and do a lot of work
teaching youth and poor people how to do things from using computers to
supporting their local community. I'm almost positive they'd be interested.

Otherwise, I would check with local small schools, private schools, or
non-profit groups. I work at a small church and school and we accept
donations of computers (we currently don't have a need, sorry).
Sharing and Caring Hands might be interested
http://www.sharingandcaringhands.org/contact.htm

Hope that helps,
Nick Scholtes


On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Leif Johnson <leif.t.johnson at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Do you guys know of any groups that would accept donations of old, yet
> working, computers?  We have a couple in the 700Mhz -- 1 Ghz processor
> range that we are looking to get rid of.
>
> thanks,
> leif
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Art: bellsoffreedom.cgsociety.org/gallery/

Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com
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From strayf at freeshell.org  Wed Jul 23 13:19:43 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:19:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] donate old computers?
In-Reply-To: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4887763F.6030803@freeshell.org>

There's a local FreeGeek starting up, Twin Cities Open Circuit 
<http://tcopencircuit.org/freegeek>. However at the moment we're held back 
by lack of space. We could probably handle a couple computers, but we're 
not ready for much quantity.

If anyone knows of good spaces for low rent, suggestions are welcome. :)

-Steve


Leif Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Do you guys know of any groups that would accept donations of old, yet
> working, computers?  We have a couple in the 700Mhz -- 1 Ghz processor
> range that we are looking to get rid of.
> 
> thanks,
> leif
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com  Wed Jul 23 14:34:51 2008
From: tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com (Robert De Mars)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 14:34:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] donate old computers?
In-Reply-To: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <488787DB.2080603@b-o-b.homelinux.com>

Leif Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Do you guys know of any groups that would accept donations of old, yet
> working, computers?  We have a couple in the 700Mhz -- 1 Ghz processor
> range that we are looking to get rid of.
> 
> thanks,
> leif

Geez.  I would be accepting donations if you cannot find these boxes a home.

My home network is as follows:

Firewall / Router	Pent Pro 200 w/128 Megs Ram

FileServer		Pent 233 MMZ - 64M Ram

Internet Box (http, mail, ftp, etc)	Pent 200 w/ 96 Megs of ram

In my world your boxes work be considered quite new.  If you cannot find 
anyone to take them, I would be happy to put them into service.

Thanks,

Bob



From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Wed Jul 23 16:14:32 2008
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 16:14:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] donate old computers?
In-Reply-To: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20080723161432.7591eee9@sinkhole.intrcomm.net>

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:27:09 -0500
"Leif Johnson" <leif.t.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Do you guys know of any groups that would accept donations of old,
> yet working, computers?  We have a couple in the 700Mhz -- 1 Ghz
> processor range that we are looking to get rid of.

You could try a classifieds on this list - I've had bad luck with
list members though - twice I've had people say they'd take my
stuff but then don't make any effort to follow up or reply to
inquiries.  No biggie, I'm sure people get busy/sidetracked.

Josh


From tpenney at gmail.com  Wed Jul 23 17:35:24 2008
From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:35:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] modrewrite regex question
Message-ID: <5c596d0e0807231535k2956a98amb7e07dd6fb20d14@mail.gmail.com>

I'm creating some alternate urls for pages with mod rewrite. I could
use a little help from someone who knows regular expressions better
than I. I'm using a rewriteMap.

my map looks like this:

mypage  long/ugly/path/to/real/mypage.php
myotherpage  long/ugly/path/to/real/my/other/page.php

It took me a while but I've come up with this rewrite rule:
RewriteRule ^([^/]+)/?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]

this works if the visitor goes to any of these locations:
http://domain.com/mypage
http://domain.com/mypage/
http://domain.com/myotherpage
http://domain.com/myotherpage/

My problem is coming up with a rewrite rule that will work if the
"slug" contains slashes, while at the same time taking into account
that the user may or may not enter a trailing slash. so if I add this
to my map:

page/one  path/to/page.php?page=1
page/two  path/to/page.php?page=2

I would think this rule would work:
RewriteRule ^(.*)/?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]

And it does work for this url:
http://domain.com/page/one

but does not match this url:
http://domain.com/page/one/
because the ".*" is gobbling up the trailing slash and not finding it in my map

any suggestions?

Thanks,
Tom Penney


From strayf at freeshell.org  Wed Jul 23 17:45:17 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:45:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] modrewrite regex question
In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0807231535k2956a98amb7e07dd6fb20d14@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5c596d0e0807231535k2956a98amb7e07dd6fb20d14@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4887B47D.7080609@freeshell.org>

Tom Penney wrote:
> [...]
> I would think this rule would work:
> RewriteRule ^(.*)/?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]
> 
> And it does work for this url:
> http://domain.com/page/one
> 
> but does not match this url:
> http://domain.com/page/one/
> because the ".*" is gobbling up the trailing slash and not finding it in my map
> 
> any suggestions?
> 

In perl regexes you can use ".*?" instead of ".*" to make it a non-greedy 
match. Does that work?

-Steve


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jul 23 18:51:32 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 18:51:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] modrewrite regex question
In-Reply-To: <4887B47D.7080609@freeshell.org>
References: <5c596d0e0807231535k2956a98amb7e07dd6fb20d14@mail.gmail.com>
	<4887B47D.7080609@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807231835490.12842@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:

> Tom Penney wrote:
>> [...]
>> I would think this rule would work:
>> RewriteRule ^(.*)/?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]
>>
>> And it does work for this url:
>> http://domain.com/page/one
>>
>> but does not match this url:
>> http://domain.com/page/one/
>> because the ".*" is gobbling up the trailing slash and not finding it in my map
>>
>> any suggestions?
>
> In perl regexes you can use ".*?" instead of ".*" to make it a 
> non-greedy match. Does that work?


I was going to ask about that too, but I have the impression that you can 
simplify further.  I think maybe this is what you want to handle all 
cases:

RewriteRule ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]

I'm not entirely clear on what you are doing, but that will allow for any 
number of initial strings followed by slashes.  So...

itmatchesthis
andthis/
and/it/matches/this
and/it/matches/this/

...and the trailing slash is dropped such that $1 never has a trailing 
slash.  By the way, this might be just as good:

RewriteRule ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/*$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]

I replaced a question mark with an asterisk to allow any number of 
trailing slashes, all of which are not held in $1.

I don't know if any of this works for you though.

Mike


From tpenney at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 09:07:21 2008
From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:07:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] modrewrite regex question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807231835490.12842@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <5c596d0e0807231535k2956a98amb7e07dd6fb20d14@mail.gmail.com>
	<4887B47D.7080609@freeshell.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807231835490.12842@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <5c596d0e0807240707j6ab12597ne95e12734952ee1@mail.gmail.com>

> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:
>> In perl regexes you can use ".*?" instead of ".*" to make it a non-greedy
>> match. Does that work?

Yes! This works great. I also added the * as Mike suggested to allow
multiple trailing slashes
RewriteRule ^(.*?)/*?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]

Mike's rules below do also work but I'm not sure I understand how they
differ from the one above, $1 does not include the trailing slash, and
all the listed examples match. The URL which the visitor typed does
not change in any case. I think I would have to redirect if I wanted
the the trailing slash to be dropped from what the user sees in the
address. But everything works :-). Thanks for your help!


On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>  I think maybe this is what you want to handle all cases:
>
> RewriteRule ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]
>
> itmatchesthis
> andthis/
> and/it/matches/this
> and/it/matches/this/
>
> ...and the trailing slash is dropped such that $1 never has a trailing
> slash.  By the way, this might be just as good:
>
> RewriteRule ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/*$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]
>
> I replaced a question mark with an asterisk to allow any number of trailing
> slashes, all of which are not held in $1.
>
> I don't know if any of this works for you though.
>
> Mike
>



-- 
Tom Penney
612-920-3562


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Jul 24 12:58:13 2008
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 12:58:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] donate old computers?
In-Reply-To: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <dbe795460807230927u562c25d8t641fa2860ef5e11f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f0807241058m22101882gb1394a2115be4b2b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Leif Johnson <leif.t.johnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Do you guys know of any groups that would accept donations of old, yet
> working, computers?  We have a couple in the 700Mhz -- 1 Ghz processor
> range that we are looking to get rid of.
>
> thanks,
> leif
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

Another one I know of is the Society of St. Vincent de Paul thrift
store in Minneapolis.  I'd also second the Free Geek and local schools
suggestions, depending on how many you're talking about.

-- 
Tony Yarusso
http://tonyyarusso.com/


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Jul 24 17:12:50 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:12:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] modrewrite regex question
In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0807240707j6ab12597ne95e12734952ee1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5c596d0e0807231535k2956a98amb7e07dd6fb20d14@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4887B47D.7080609@freeshell.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807231835490.12842@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<5c596d0e0807240707j6ab12597ne95e12734952ee1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807241703300.27437@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008, Tom Penney wrote:

>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:
>>> In perl regexes you can use ".*?" instead of ".*" to make it a non-greedy
>>> match. Does that work?
>
> Yes! This works great. I also added the * as Mike suggested to allow
> multiple trailing slashes
> RewriteRule ^(.*?)/*?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]

That allows for strings that begin with "/" which was expressly disallowed 
in your previous pattern.  I also see that as a little ambiguous in that 
you are using "*?" on both sides of the slash which makes it unclear where 
the slashes should be absorbed.  To make it a little clearer, I would drop 
the second question mark like so:

RewriteRule ^(.*?)/*$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]

Then the second asterisk is clearly "greedy" and it absorbs all the 
slashes.


> Mike's rules below do also work but I'm not sure I understand how they 
> differ from the one above, $1 does not include the trailing slash, and 
> all the listed examples match.

The pattern above:

^(.*?)/*?$

My pattern:

^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/*$

There are three differences:  Mine will not match a line that begins with 
a slash "/" but yours will match such a line.  Mine requires that at least 
one non-slash character be present but yours does not have that 
requirement.  Mine clearly drops the final slashes (the "ambiguity" issue 
I mentioned above that is handled by dropping the second question mark).

I was just basing mine on what you had earlier.

Mike


> The URL which the visitor typed does not change in any case. I think I 
> would have to redirect if I wanted the the trailing slash to be dropped 
> from what the user sees in the address. But everything works :-). Thanks 
> for your help!
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 23, 2008 at 6:51 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>>  I think maybe this is what you want to handle all cases:
>>
>> RewriteRule ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/?$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]
>>
>> itmatchesthis
>> andthis/
>> and/it/matches/this
>> and/it/matches/this/
>>
>> ...and the trailing slash is dropped such that $1 never has a trailing
>> slash.  By the way, this might be just as good:
>>
>> RewriteRule ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/*$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]
>>
>> I replaced a question mark with an asterisk to allow any number of trailing
>> slashes, all of which are not held in $1.
>>
>> I don't know if any of this works for you though.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Tom Penney
> 612-920-3562
>


From tclug at whitleymott.net  Fri Jul 25 02:26:27 2008
From: tclug at whitleymott.net (greg wm)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 02:26:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] wishing: unscanned imap folder et al
Message-ID: <48898023.8040304@whitleymott.net>

our amavis/postfix/maildrop/dovecot server is good, but we are left a 
wee bit wanting.  here is a (priority ordered) wishlist:

   1. spam scanning may be on a distant machine (amavis/postfix can do this)
   2. if spam scanning is at all delayed, recipients may see unscanned
      messages, perhaps in an imap folder (don't think amavis can do this)
   3. progressively slow down response to a machine failing
      authentication into ssh, imap, or pop
   4. progressively slow down response to a server that sends gobs of spam
   5. spam may be separated into more than one folder based on spaminess
      thresholds separately adjustable by each user (maia/maildrop can
      do this)
   6. if a message is reclassified as spam or nonspam by a user, other
      recipients of messages with identical bodyparts may see the
      reclassified result
   7. if another recipient of similar content again reclassifies a
      message, the prior user may see that
   8. if a user classifies a message before a scan result is obtained,
      it may be removed from the spamscan queue
   9. where various messages contain an identical attachment or
      bodypart, the system is smart enough to refer to a prior scan or
      reclassification result
  10. where various messages contain an identical attachment or
      bodypart, the system is smart enough to store only a single copy,
      eg by hardlinking

are there worthy of mention answers to these wishes?

tia,
greg wm


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Jul 25 07:53:59 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 07:53:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] wishing: unscanned imap folder et al
In-Reply-To: <48898023.8040304@whitleymott.net>
References: <48898023.8040304@whitleymott.net>
Message-ID: <20080725125359.GB2454@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 02:26:27AM -0500, greg wm wrote:
> our amavis/postfix/maildrop/dovecot server is good, but we are left a 
> wee bit wanting.  here is a (priority ordered) wishlist:
> 
>    1. spam scanning may be on a distant machine (amavis/postfix can do this)
>    2. if spam scanning is at all delayed, recipients may see unscanned
>       messages, perhaps in an imap folder (don't think amavis can do this)
>    3. progressively slow down response to a machine failing
>       authentication into ssh, imap, or pop
>    4. progressively slow down response to a server that sends gobs of spam
>    5. spam may be separated into more than one folder based on spaminess
>       thresholds separately adjustable by each user (maia/maildrop can
>       do this)
>    6. if a message is reclassified as spam or nonspam by a user, other
>       recipients of messages with identical bodyparts may see the
>       reclassified result
>    7. if another recipient of similar content again reclassifies a
>       message, the prior user may see that
>    8. if a user classifies a message before a scan result is obtained,
>       it may be removed from the spamscan queue
>    9. where various messages contain an identical attachment or
>       bodypart, the system is smart enough to refer to a prior scan or
>       reclassification result
>   10. where various messages contain an identical attachment or
>       bodypart, the system is smart enough to store only a single copy,
>       eg by hardlinking
> 
> are there worthy of mention answers to these wishes?

Yes, there are, actually is:  include your amavis / spamassasin in the
mail delivery queue, not as an after-thought.  Then your 10 problems
go away.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tpenney at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 08:00:20 2008
From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 08:00:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] modrewrite regex question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807241703300.27437@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <5c596d0e0807231535k2956a98amb7e07dd6fb20d14@mail.gmail.com>
	<4887B47D.7080609@freeshell.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807231835490.12842@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<5c596d0e0807240707j6ab12597ne95e12734952ee1@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807241703300.27437@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <5c596d0e0807250600y5bea11bcx207ca9db791e884d@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 5:12 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> The pattern above:
>
> ^(.*?)/*?$
>
> My pattern:
>
> ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/*$
>
> There are three differences:  Mine will not match a line that begins with a
> slash "/" but yours will match such a line.  Mine requires that at least one
> non-slash character be present but yours does not have that requirement.
>  Mine clearly drops the final slashes (the "ambiguity" issue I mentioned
> above that is handled by dropping the second question mark).
>
> I was just basing mine on what you had earlier.
>
> Mike

Thanks Mike, Your clear explanation has really helped my meger
understand regex. Yours is clearly much better.

If anyone is interested in a similar solution this seems to be working
well. I'm mapping user defined page slugs to any page in the site
using a slug map

this must go in the conf file. mine is in the <VirtualHost ...>
RewriteMap txtmap txt:/path/to/slugmap.txt

once there, it can be referred to in .htaccess if you want but the
RewriteMap itself can't be in .htaccess

then the rewrite conditions and rule. the conditions prevent the rule
from stomping on any real files or directories
<IfModule mod_rewrite.c>
RewriteEngine On
RewriteBase /
RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-f
RewriteCond %{REQUEST_FILENAME} !-d
RewriteRule ^(([^/]+?/)*[^/]+)/*$ ${txtmap:$1} [L]
</IfModule>

then I manage the slugmap.txt from the web apps admin interface. Any
page page can have any url as long as slug doesn't match a real url.

thanks again Steve and Mike for your help.

- Tom


From pcutler at foresightlinux.org  Fri Jul 25 10:05:36 2008
From: pcutler at foresightlinux.org (Paul Cutler)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 10:05:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] St. Cloud LUG
Message-ID: <4c4ad4df0807250805s62fa363aweda9153ec53899f7@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know if the St. Cloud LUG is still active?  Their webpage
(http://www.scalug.us/) doesn't seem to be active anymore.

Thanks.

Paul


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Fri Jul 25 12:38:46 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:38:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807251738.m6PHckN06523@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: IBM Thinkpad battery

Used genuine IBM Thinkpad battery.
Pulled from a working T23; fits other T2x series also.
Seller to verify compatibility.
Runs about 1 hr but I make no warranty.
Would be good as a spare.
FRU P/N: 02K7028
ASM P/N: 02K7027

$15 CASH ONLY
You pick up in SW Mpls.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Fri Jul 25 12:40:04 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 12:40:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Two 300 GB SATA drives

Two used hard drives, 1 each:

Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6V300F0 300GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6L300S0 300GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 1.5Gb/s

Both pulled from a working system but I make no warranty as hard drives can fail.

$150 CASH ONLY for the pair.
Email to arrange pickup in SW Mpls. 

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jul 25 13:07:23 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:07:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
In-Reply-To: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, TCLUG Classifieds wrote:

> New TCLUG Classified Ad
>
> Category: Computer
>
> Type of Ad: For Sale
>
> Subject: Two 300 GB SATA drives
>
> Two used hard drives, 1 each:
>
> Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6V300F0 300GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
> Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6L300S0 300GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 1.5Gb/s
>
> Both pulled from a working system but I make no warranty as hard drives 
> can fail.
>
> $150 CASH ONLY for the pair.


Why would someone buy those drives at that price?  Someone could buy this 
OEM drive on NewEgg and get 25% more volume (750 GB vs. 600 GB) for 66% of 
the price ($99 w/ free S/H vs. $150 "CASH ONLY") in a single drive:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152100

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 750GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
     *  750GB
     *  7200 RPM 32MB Cache
     *  SATA 3.0Gb/s

And it's *all* 3.0Gb/s insted of half 1.5Gb/s with 32MB cache instead of 
16MB cache.  Your drives are used and this drive is new.


I guess that's now the cheapest price per GB I've ever seen.


Anyway, that's not much of a bargain you've got there!

Mike


From j at packetgod.com  Fri Jul 25 13:28:31 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:28:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>

Not to add to the slam but if you are looking for multiple drives
rather than one big one (and to maintain an apples to apples
comparision) these Western Digital 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0
drives are only 64.99 with free shipping.  Thats 2 brand new drives
with 40 extra GB for 130$, a 20$ savings off the listing price.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098

Its a shame but hard drives loose their value quickly as cheaper,
faster, bigger, better keeps going on the market.

--j


On 7/25/08, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, TCLUG Classifieds wrote:
>
> > New TCLUG Classified Ad
> >
> > Category: Computer
> >
> > Type of Ad: For Sale
> >
> > Subject: Two 300 GB SATA drives
> >
> > Two used hard drives, 1 each:
> >
> > Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6V300F0 300GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0Gb/s
> > Maxtor DiamondMax 10 6L300S0 300GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 1.5Gb/s
> >
> > Both pulled from a working system but I make no warranty as hard drives
> > can fail.
> >
> > $150 CASH ONLY for the pair.
>
>
> Why would someone buy those drives at that price?  Someone could buy this
> OEM drive on NewEgg and get 25% more volume (750 GB vs. 600 GB) for 66% of
> the price ($99 w/ free S/H vs. $150 "CASH ONLY") in a single drive:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152100
>
> SAMSUNG Spinpoint F1 750GB 3.5" SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM
>     *  750GB
>     *  7200 RPM 32MB Cache
>     *  SATA 3.0Gb/s
>
> And it's *all* 3.0Gb/s insted of half 1.5Gb/s with 32MB cache instead of
> 16MB cache.  Your drives are used and this drive is new.
>
>
> I guess that's now the cheapest price per GB I've ever seen.
>
>
> Anyway, that's not much of a bargain you've got there!
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jul 25 13:49:34 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 13:49:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com> 
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251332190.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, J Cruit wrote:

> Not to add to the slam but if you are looking for multiple drives rather 
> than one big one (and to maintain an apples to apples comparision) these 
> Western Digital 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0 drives are only 64.99 
> with free shipping.  Thats 2 brand new drives with 40 extra GB for 130$, 
> a 20$ savings off the listing price.
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098
>
> Its a shame but hard drives loose their value quickly as cheaper, 
> faster, bigger, better keeps going on the market.


Yep.  An old prof at UW-Madison told me that in 1967 they bought a hard 
drive for their big card-reading computer:  The drive cost $66,000 and it 
held 2 MB ($33,000,000 per GB).  In 1986 I bought a 30 MB HDD for $450 
($15,000 per GB).  We can now buy a 750 GB HDD for $99 ($0.132 per GB).

So HDD price per GB improved by a factor of 2,200 times from 1967 to 1986 
and by a factor of about 114,000 times from 1986 to 2008, and the 
improvement was about 250 million fold from 1967 to 2008.

I therefore do not recommend HDDs as investments!  ;-)

It's the same for flash drives.  A friend bought an 8GB flash thumb drive 
for $27 a few weeks ago.  My son bought a 4GB flash at Christmas time for 
$30.  I bought a 1GB flash in 2005 (I believe it was 2005) for $20.  So 
the number of GB per dollar on flash also is increasing at faster than 
exponential rates.

If this keeps up, what will we be buying in 20 more years??!!

Mike


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Jul 25 14:32:29 2008
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 14:32:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] * Tomorrow * Foresight Linux - Topic @PenguinsUnbound
 Linux Meeting July 26th, 2008
Message-ID: <488A2A4D.8080909@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.net meeting
will be Saturday July 26th, 2008 at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm

(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com/Location_for_Meetings
for directions and more info.)

We will be talking with
Paul Culter about Foresight Linux (http://www.foresightlinux.org/)

 From their webpage;
     Foresight is a desktop operating system featuring an intuitive user 
interface and a showcase of the latest desktop software, giving users 
convenient and enjoyable access to their music, photos, videos, 
documents, and Internet resources.

Thanks, hope to see you there.

==>brian.


From canito at dalan.us  Fri Jul 25 15:37:59 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:37:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251332190.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251332190.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20080725153759.0t4n2x7by8c4g84c@mail.dalan.us>

This months Linux Journal has a good article on solid state drives and  
they talk about their comparison against a 4200 RPM 1.8 drive.

Does anyone own or have used a SSD?

David

Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>:

> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, J Cruit wrote:
>
>> Not to add to the slam but if you are looking for multiple drives rather
>> than one big one (and to maintain an apples to apples comparision) these
>> Western Digital 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache SATA 3.0 drives are only 64.99
>> with free shipping.  Thats 2 brand new drives with 40 extra GB for 130$,
>> a 20$ savings off the listing price.
>>
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098
>>
>> Its a shame but hard drives loose their value quickly as cheaper,
>> faster, bigger, better keeps going on the market.
>
>
> Yep.  An old prof at UW-Madison told me that in 1967 they bought a hard
> drive for their big card-reading computer:  The drive cost $66,000 and it
> held 2 MB ($33,000,000 per GB).  In 1986 I bought a 30 MB HDD for $450
> ($15,000 per GB).  We can now buy a 750 GB HDD for $99 ($0.132 per GB).
>
> So HDD price per GB improved by a factor of 2,200 times from 1967 to 1986
> and by a factor of about 114,000 times from 1986 to 2008, and the
> improvement was about 250 million fold from 1967 to 2008.
>
> I therefore do not recommend HDDs as investments!  ;-)
>
> It's the same for flash drives.  A friend bought an 8GB flash thumb drive
> for $27 a few weeks ago.  My son bought a 4GB flash at Christmas time for
> $30.  I bought a 1GB flash in 2005 (I believe it was 2005) for $20.  So
> the number of GB per dollar on flash also is increasing at faster than
> exponential rates.
>
> If this keeps up, what will we be buying in 20 more years??!!
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jul 25 15:46:39 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 15:46:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] solid state drives
In-Reply-To: <20080725153759.0t4n2x7by8c4g84c@mail.dalan.us>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251332190.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725153759.0t4n2x7by8c4g84c@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251542350.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, David Alanis wrote:

> This months Linux Journal has a good article on solid state drives and 
> they talk about their comparison against a 4200 RPM 1.8 drive.

Are 4200 RPM 1.8" drives used in notebooks?

So what did they find?  Was SSD faster than HDD?


> Does anyone own or have used a SSD?

Not me.

Mike


From canito at dalan.us  Fri Jul 25 16:05:35 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:05:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] solid state drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251542350.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251332190.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725153759.0t4n2x7by8c4g84c@mail.dalan.us>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251542350.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20080725160535.o70hy0mstwckg000@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>:

> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, David Alanis wrote:
>
>> This months Linux Journal has a good article on solid state drives and
>> they talk about their comparison against a 4200 RPM 1.8 drive.
>
> Are 4200 RPM 1.8" drives used in notebooks?
>
> So what did they find?  Was SSD faster than HDD?

The tests were done on a Laptop - Fujitsu P1610 Intel 1.2GHz ULV Core  
Solo with 1GB RAM. Also, pointed out that it will vary depending on  
the OS and packages of course. You will have to buy the mag to read  
the complete article :)

I have to get going here but the results are as follows:

Grub to login
4200rpm: 50sec.
SSD: 34sec.

Login to Desktop
4200rpm: 59sec.
SSD: 23sec.

Untar Kernel 2.6.22
4200rpm: 66sec.
SSD: 53sec.

Suspend to Disk
4200rpm: 75sec.
SSD: 50sec.

Grub to Resume
4200rpm: 83sec.
SSD: 38sec.

David


>
>
>> Does anyone own or have used a SSD?
>
> Not me.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jul 25 16:53:34 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 16:53:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] solid state drives
In-Reply-To: <20080725160535.o70hy0mstwckg000@mail.dalan.us>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251332190.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725153759.0t4n2x7by8c4g84c@mail.dalan.us>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251542350.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725160535.o70hy0mstwckg000@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251623450.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, David Alanis wrote:

> The tests were done on a Laptop - Fujitsu P1610 Intel 1.2GHz ULV Core 
> Solo with 1GB RAM. Also, pointed out that it will vary depending on the 
> OS and packages of course. You will have to buy the mag to read the 
> complete article :)
>
> I have to get going here but the results are as follows:
>
> Grub to login
> 4200rpm: 50sec.
> SSD: 34sec.
>
> Login to Desktop
> 4200rpm: 59sec.
> SSD: 23sec.
>
> Untar Kernel 2.6.22
> 4200rpm: 66sec.
> SSD: 53sec.
>
> Suspend to Disk
> 4200rpm: 75sec.
> SSD: 50sec.
>
> Grub to Resume
> 4200rpm: 83sec.
> SSD: 38sec.


Thanks for sharing that, David.  That is interesting information. 
Apparently, the 4200 RPM HDD took 50% or more time than the SSD on every 
job but only 25% longer on "untar kernel," for some reason.

On NewEgg.com, most of the 64GB SSD drives are in the $700-$800 range, but 
there's this one at $285:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208432

So what's wrong with that one?!  ;-)

Mike


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Jul 25 17:04:00 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:04:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] solid state drives
In-Reply-To: <20080725160535.o70hy0mstwckg000@mail.dalan.us>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251542350.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725160535.o70hy0mstwckg000@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <200807251704.00615.tclug@lizakowski.com>


Shopping Cart to Mailbox:
4200rpm:  $49.99
SSD: $999.99


On Friday 25 July 2008 4:05:35 pm David Alanis wrote:
> Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>:
> > On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, David Alanis wrote:
> >> This months Linux Journal has a good article on solid state drives and
> >> they talk about their comparison against a 4200 RPM 1.8 drive.
> >
> > Are 4200 RPM 1.8" drives used in notebooks?
> >
> > So what did they find?  Was SSD faster than HDD?
>
> The tests were done on a Laptop - Fujitsu P1610 Intel 1.2GHz ULV Core
> Solo with 1GB RAM. Also, pointed out that it will vary depending on
> the OS and packages of course. You will have to buy the mag to read
> the complete article :)
>
> I have to get going here but the results are as follows:
>
> Grub to login
> 4200rpm: 50sec.
> SSD: 34sec.
>
> Login to Desktop
> 4200rpm: 59sec.
> SSD: 23sec.
>
> Untar Kernel 2.6.22
> 4200rpm: 66sec.
> SSD: 53sec.
>
> Suspend to Disk
> 4200rpm: 75sec.
> SSD: 50sec.
>
> Grub to Resume
> 4200rpm: 83sec.
> SSD: 38sec.
>
> David
>
> >> Does anyone own or have used a SSD?
> >
> > Not me.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Jul 25 18:42:19 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:42:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] solid state drives
In-Reply-To: <200807251704.00615.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251542350.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725160535.o70hy0mstwckg000@mail.dalan.us>
	<200807251704.00615.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251836310.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Jeremy wrote:

> Shopping Cart to Mailbox:
> 4200rpm:  $49.99
> SSD: $999.99


No doubt that price will be divebombing fast (I think they are already 
mostly in the $700-$800 range at 64GB).

Someone on another list answered this for me:


>> On NewEgg.com, most of the 64GB SSD drives are in the $700-$800 range, 
>> but there's this one at $285:
>>
>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208432
>>
>> So what's wrong with that one?!  ;-)
>>
>> Mike
>
> It's using slower and shorter-lived multi-level cell (MLC) Flash rather 
> than the much more expensive, faster, and longer-lived single-level cell 
> (SLC) Flash. The "-M" at the end of the product name gives it away:
>
> http://www.transcendusa.com/Products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=177
>
> Transcend's own data lists the MLC version as 116 MB/sec read, 43 MB/sec 
> write vs. 119 MB/sec read, 64 MB/sec writes for the SLC Flash. They do 
> not list the estimated life span in I/O operations for the two types but 
> they do note that the SLC version is recommended for OS installation:
>
> http://www.transcendusa.com/Products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=177&SpNo=3&LangNo=0


Can't wait for those 64GB SLC SSD drives to drop to about $100.  That will 
be nice.  My guess is that it will take 2 years.

Mike


From mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 21:12:45 2008
From: mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com (Mark Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:12:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] nfs error
Message-ID: <4bca4b7c0807251912h1e9dad51rdc5299d56247cee3@mail.gmail.com>

Debian Etch, brand new install.  All I've done to it since out of the
box state is change the IP to static, and add a drive.

Every time I start '/etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server', I get 'nfsd:
peername failed (err 107)'.

Googling this error doesn't bring up anything useful.

Any ideas?


From mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com  Fri Jul 25 22:31:41 2008
From: mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com (Mark Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:31:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] nfs error
In-Reply-To: <4bca4b7c0807251912h1e9dad51rdc5299d56247cee3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4bca4b7c0807251912h1e9dad51rdc5299d56247cee3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4bca4b7c0807252031qbd3f5d9v219c0c49d74498c4@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Mark Mitchell
<mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Debian Etch, brand new install.  All I've done to it since out of the
> box state is change the IP to static, and add a drive.
>
> Every time I start '/etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server', I get 'nfsd:
> peername failed (err 107)'.
>
> Googling this error doesn't bring up anything useful.
>
With some help from #debian on irc.debian.org, I figured it out.

The problem was that I had a client on the network still trying to
connect to the original share on this machine.  Once I re-setup the
shares on the server, and remounted the client's shares, everything
was fine.


From dave at sherohman.org  Sat Jul 26 09:47:00 2008
From: dave at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:47:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] solid state drives
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251623450.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200807251740.m6PHe4707613@crusader.real-time.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251258410.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<38aa5b6a0807251128r2bdefdefl636d592ba21492f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251332190.9888@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725153759.0t4n2x7by8c4g84c@mail.dalan.us>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251542350.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20080725160535.o70hy0mstwckg000@mail.dalan.us>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251623450.27155@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20080726144700.GE21754@sherohman.org>

On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 04:53:34PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, David Alanis wrote:
> > Grub to login
> > 4200rpm: 50sec.
> > SSD: 34sec.
> >
> > Login to Desktop
> > 4200rpm: 59sec.
> > SSD: 23sec.
> >
> > Untar Kernel 2.6.22
> > 4200rpm: 66sec.
> > SSD: 53sec.
> >
> > Suspend to Disk
> > 4200rpm: 75sec.
> > SSD: 50sec.
> >
> > Grub to Resume
> > 4200rpm: 83sec.
> > SSD: 38sec.
> 
> 
> Thanks for sharing that, David.  That is interesting information. 
> Apparently, the 4200 RPM HDD took 50% or more time than the SSD on every 
> job but only 25% longer on "untar kernel," for some reason.

Is the untarring a straight read of an uncompressed tarball or was the
test run on a compressed kernel?  I assume the latter (that seems to be
the norm), in which case the "untar kernel" test would have a
significantly higher proportion of CPU-dependent work than the other
tests, reducing the relative impact of data transfer speeds.

-- 
News aggregation meets world domination.  Can you see the fnews?
http://seethefnews.com/


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Jul 26 23:00:36 2008
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 23:00:36 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>

Hey all,

I'm having some bad network flakeyness, just came out of nowhere... 
connections between hosts on the local network are really bad, huge 
amounts of packet loss OCCASSIONALLY. Like suddenly you can't connect to 
the DNS server. Or you're SSH'd onto a machine and suddenly THAT dies... 
and then comes back.

If I do pings I I get up to 50% packet loss.

These is between all and every hosts.

Except the router - perfect connectivity to THAT.

I need some tools to try and figure that out. I've tried wireshark but I 
see nothing unusual there.

Anyone know any good tools or have any ideas? This is kinda driving me 
nuts!


-Yaron

--


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sun Jul 27 00:11:00 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 00:11:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
Message-ID: <2363ED14-6EE4-48F2-A285-DFCF1D11BCD3@secure-computing.net>

On Jul 26, 2008, at 11:00 PM, Yaron wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I'm having some bad network flakeyness, just came out of nowhere...
> connections between hosts on the local network are really bad, huge
> amounts of packet loss OCCASSIONALLY. Like suddenly you can't  
> connect to
> the DNS server. Or you're SSH'd onto a machine and suddenly THAT  
> dies...
> and then comes back.
>
> If I do pings I I get up to 50% packet loss.
>
> These is between all and every hosts.
>
> Except the router - perfect connectivity to THAT.


Without more intimate knowledge of your network topology, I'd guess it  
was wiring problems.  Bad ethernet cabling can be a culprit in these  
cases.

---
Eric Crist






From tclug at lizakowski.com  Sun Jul 27 02:37:20 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 02:37:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
Message-ID: <200807270237.20112.tclug@lizakowski.com>


Perhaps the internal switch/hub is flaking out, but the embedded *nix chip is 
ok.  Overheating of the router?   Noisy line voltage?  Or it could be a blown 
capacitor or other HW issues.  

It might be easiest to try another router, or replace it with a hub/switch and 
see if the local net is ok.  Or, put the local net on a switch that feeds 
into the router, so that local traffic never touches the router.    

Jeremy



On Saturday 26 July 2008 11:00:36 pm Yaron wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm having some bad network flakeyness, just came out of nowhere...
> connections between hosts on the local network are really bad, huge
> amounts of packet loss OCCASSIONALLY. Like suddenly you can't connect to
> the DNS server. Or you're SSH'd onto a machine and suddenly THAT dies...
> and then comes back.
>
> If I do pings I I get up to 50% packet loss.
>
> These is between all and every hosts.
>
> Except the router - perfect connectivity to THAT.
>
> I need some tools to try and figure that out. I've tried wireshark but I
> see nothing unusual there.
>
> Anyone know any good tools or have any ideas? This is kinda driving me
> nuts!
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From noly747 at gmail.com  Sun Jul 27 09:22:54 2008
From: noly747 at gmail.com (jerry Nolan)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 09:22:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 43, Issue 28
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone know where I can get a 5.25 inch floppy drive? My wife has
some floppies that have her genealogy on them and no way to read
them...thanks...Jerry

On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 12:00 PM,  <tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org> wrote:
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
>        tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>        http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>        tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>        tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: solid state drives (Jeremy)
>   2. Re: solid state drives (Mike Miller)
>   3. nfs error (Mark Mitchell)
>   4. Re: nfs error (Mark Mitchell)
>   5. Re: solid state drives (Dave Sherohman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 17:04:00 -0500
> From: Jeremy <tclug at lizakowski.com>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] solid state drives
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID: <200807251704.00615.tclug at lizakowski.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
> Shopping Cart to Mailbox:
> 4200rpm:  $49.99
> SSD: $999.99
>
>
> On Friday 25 July 2008 4:05:35 pm David Alanis wrote:
>> Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>:
>> > On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, David Alanis wrote:
>> >> This months Linux Journal has a good article on solid state drives and
>> >> they talk about their comparison against a 4200 RPM 1.8 drive.
>> >
>> > Are 4200 RPM 1.8" drives used in notebooks?
>> >
>> > So what did they find?  Was SSD faster than HDD?
>>
>> The tests were done on a Laptop - Fujitsu P1610 Intel 1.2GHz ULV Core
>> Solo with 1GB RAM. Also, pointed out that it will vary depending on
>> the OS and packages of course. You will have to buy the mag to read
>> the complete article :)
>>
>> I have to get going here but the results are as follows:
>>
>> Grub to login
>> 4200rpm: 50sec.
>> SSD: 34sec.
>>
>> Login to Desktop
>> 4200rpm: 59sec.
>> SSD: 23sec.
>>
>> Untar Kernel 2.6.22
>> 4200rpm: 66sec.
>> SSD: 53sec.
>>
>> Suspend to Disk
>> 4200rpm: 75sec.
>> SSD: 50sec.
>>
>> Grub to Resume
>> 4200rpm: 83sec.
>> SSD: 38sec.
>>
>> David
>>
>> >> Does anyone own or have used a SSD?
>> >
>> > Not me.
>> >
>> > Mike
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:42:19 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] solid state drives
> To: TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807251836310.27155 at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, Jeremy wrote:
>
>> Shopping Cart to Mailbox:
>> 4200rpm:  $49.99
>> SSD: $999.99
>
>
> No doubt that price will be divebombing fast (I think they are already
> mostly in the $700-$800 range at 64GB).
>
> Someone on another list answered this for me:
>
>
>>> On NewEgg.com, most of the 64GB SSD drives are in the $700-$800 range,
>>> but there's this one at $285:
>>>
>>> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820208432
>>>
>>> So what's wrong with that one?!  ;-)
>>>
>>> Mike
>>
>> It's using slower and shorter-lived multi-level cell (MLC) Flash rather
>> than the much more expensive, faster, and longer-lived single-level cell
>> (SLC) Flash. The "-M" at the end of the product name gives it away:
>>
>> http://www.transcendusa.com/Products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=177
>>
>> Transcend's own data lists the MLC version as 116 MB/sec read, 43 MB/sec
>> write vs. 119 MB/sec read, 64 MB/sec writes for the SLC Flash. They do
>> not list the estimated life span in I/O operations for the two types but
>> they do note that the SLC version is recommended for OS installation:
>>
>> http://www.transcendusa.com/Products/ModDetail.asp?ModNo=177&SpNo=3&LangNo=0
>
>
> Can't wait for those 64GB SLC SSD drives to drop to about $100.  That will
> be nice.  My guess is that it will take 2 years.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:12:45 -0500
> From: "Mark Mitchell" <mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com>
> Subject: [tclug-list] nfs error
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID:
>        <4bca4b7c0807251912h1e9dad51rdc5299d56247cee3 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Debian Etch, brand new install.  All I've done to it since out of the
> box state is change the IP to static, and add a drive.
>
> Every time I start '/etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server', I get 'nfsd:
> peername failed (err 107)'.
>
> Googling this error doesn't bring up anything useful.
>
> Any ideas?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2008 22:31:41 -0500
> From: "Mark Mitchell" <mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] nfs error
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID:
>        <4bca4b7c0807252031qbd3f5d9v219c0c49d74498c4 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 9:12 PM, Mark Mitchell
> <mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Debian Etch, brand new install.  All I've done to it since out of the
>> box state is change the IP to static, and add a drive.
>>
>> Every time I start '/etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server', I get 'nfsd:
>> peername failed (err 107)'.
>>
>> Googling this error doesn't bring up anything useful.
>>
> With some help from #debian on irc.debian.org, I figured it out.
>
> The problem was that I had a client on the network still trying to
> connect to the original share on this machine.  Once I re-setup the
> shares on the server, and remounted the client's shares, everything
> was fine.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2008 09:47:00 -0500
> From: Dave Sherohman <dave at sherohman.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] solid state drives
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Message-ID: <20080726144700.GE21754 at sherohman.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Fri, Jul 25, 2008 at 04:53:34PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Jul 2008, David Alanis wrote:
>> > Grub to login
>> > 4200rpm: 50sec.
>> > SSD: 34sec.
>> >
>> > Login to Desktop
>> > 4200rpm: 59sec.
>> > SSD: 23sec.
>> >
>> > Untar Kernel 2.6.22
>> > 4200rpm: 66sec.
>> > SSD: 53sec.
>> >
>> > Suspend to Disk
>> > 4200rpm: 75sec.
>> > SSD: 50sec.
>> >
>> > Grub to Resume
>> > 4200rpm: 83sec.
>> > SSD: 38sec.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for sharing that, David.  That is interesting information.
>> Apparently, the 4200 RPM HDD took 50% or more time than the SSD on every
>> job but only 25% longer on "untar kernel," for some reason.
>
> Is the untarring a straight read of an uncompressed tarball or was the
> test run on a compressed kernel?  I assume the latter (that seems to be
> the norm), in which case the "untar kernel" test would have a
> significantly higher proportion of CPU-dependent work than the other
> tests, reducing the relative impact of data transfer speeds.
>
> --
> News aggregation meets world domination.  Can you see the fnews?
> http://seethefnews.com/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 43, Issue 28
> ******************************************
>



-- 
Truth is Treason in an
Empire of Lies


From john.meier at gmail.com  Sun Jul 27 10:45:24 2008
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:45:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 43, Issue 28
In-Reply-To: <a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65293fcc0807270845y3dd5ce3amb7b35b57774bb95d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 9:22 AM, jerry Nolan <noly747 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know where I can get a 5.25 inch floppy drive? My wife has
> some floppies that have her genealogy on them and no way to read
> them...thanks...Jerry
>

I have a few laying around.  I'm in bloomington - you pickup~
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From rbrown at rawmindz.com  Sun Jul 27 10:53:36 2008
From: rbrown at rawmindz.com (Robert Brown)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 10:53:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <200807270237.20112.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807270237.20112.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <916e208f0807270853q5814daband3e0a8ea28192666@mail.gmail.com>

Yeah, that was my initial thought.  Sudden network flakiness, outta
the blue, on an otherwise normally functioning network, in my
experience, has often pointed to a bad switch.  Probably the easiest
thing to rule out.

Rob

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 2:37 AM, Jeremy <tclug at lizakowski.com> wrote:
>
> Perhaps the internal switch/hub is flaking out, but the embedded *nix chip is
> ok.  Overheating of the router?   Noisy line voltage?  Or it could be a blown
> capacitor or other HW issues.
>
> It might be easiest to try another router, or replace it with a hub/switch and
> see if the local net is ok.  Or, put the local net on a switch that feeds
> into the router, so that local traffic never touches the router.
>
> Jeremy
>
>
>
> On Saturday 26 July 2008 11:00:36 pm Yaron wrote:
>> Hey all,
>>
>> I'm having some bad network flakeyness, just came out of nowhere...
>> connections between hosts on the local network are really bad, huge
>> amounts of packet loss OCCASSIONALLY. Like suddenly you can't connect to
>> the DNS server. Or you're SSH'd onto a machine and suddenly THAT dies...
>> and then comes back.
>>
>> If I do pings I I get up to 50% packet loss.
>>
>> These is between all and every hosts.
>>
>> Except the router - perfect connectivity to THAT.
>>
>> I need some tools to try and figure that out. I've tried wireshark but I
>> see nothing unusual there.
>>
>> Anyone know any good tools or have any ideas? This is kinda driving me
>> nuts!
>>
>>
>> -Yaron
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From josh at tcbug.org  Sun Jul 27 07:01:56 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 12:01:56 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 43, Issue 28
In-Reply-To: <a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200807271202.02044.josh@tcbug.org>

On Sunday 27 July 2008 02:22:54 pm jerry Nolan wrote:
> Does anyone know where I can get a 5.25 inch floppy drive? My wife has
> some floppies that have her genealogy on them and no way to read
> them...thanks...Jerry
>

The chances that the floppies themselves are actually any good are fairly low.  
Back in the mid 90's in the midst of a move I checked all the 5.25" floppies 
I had, as at that point it had been years since I used them, and the vast 
majority of them had errors.  My guess is that unless these were very 
recently written there's probably no usable data left on them.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sun Jul 27 13:58:22 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 13:58:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807271202.02044.josh@tcbug.org>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807271202.02044.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807271351150.16531@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote:

> The chances that the floppies themselves are actually any good are 
> fairly low. Back in the mid 90's in the midst of a move I checked all 
> the 5.25" floppies I had, as at that point it had been years since I 
> used them, and the vast majority of them had errors.  My guess is that 
> unless these were very recently written there's probably no usable data 
> left on them.

I wasn't the original poster on this one, but...

I'm surprised to hear that these disks are expected to fail at this point. 
I guess it has been 20 years since I looked at some of my old disks but I 
was thinking I could copy some of the files off of them, copy them to my 
HDD and toss the disks in the trash.

They really don't last this long if kept in a cool dry place, in their 
sleeve in one of those old disk cases?

I thought they would last longer.  I have watched some VHS tapes made 20 
years ago and they still work fine -- not digital, but they are magnetic 
media.

Mike


From slushpupie at gmail.com  Sun Jul 27 15:26:58 2008
From: slushpupie at gmail.com (Jay Kline)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 15:26:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] St. Cloud LUG
In-Reply-To: <4c4ad4df0807250805s62fa363aweda9153ec53899f7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4c4ad4df0807250805s62fa363aweda9153ec53899f7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <488CDA12.4090605@gmail.com>

Paul Cutler wrote:
> Does anyone know if the St. Cloud LUG is still active?  Their webpage
> (http://www.scalug.us/) doesn't seem to be active anymore.
>   
While it seems to be slowly dieing, it is still alive.  They mostly
exist on irc.freenode.net in #scalug, and a few get together about once
a month for a social gathering of geeks. The mailing list has not seen a
post in many months. Most of them are subscribed to this list since
there are more people on it.

Jay


From auditodd at comcast.net  Sun Jul 27 16:43:17 2008
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:43:17 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Laptop drive caddy source
Message-ID: <072720082143.21131.488CEBF5000952590000528B22007348400B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>

So I have an HP dv9010us.

Currently running WinXP Pro (dumped MCE that came on it).
It has two drive bays, so I thought it would be fun to dual boot XP and Linux, one on each drive.
(Ubunutu/Kubuntu works flawlessly on this rig.)
Found a new SATA 250HD for less than $100 shipped with a $20 rebate.

Then I remembered that I would need a hard drive caddy to mount the drive in the laptop.
I did some searching on Google and found the right part number.
HP wanted $145.
WTF?!
Googled the part number.
Found a site that sells drive caddies that are not OEM, but they state that they are identical.
So I ordered one for just under $40 shipped.
It arrived in 2 days (before the hard drive which I ordered the day before).
And it is a perfect fit.
Now I just have to wait for the hard drive to show up on Monday. :-)

So if you need a laptop hard drive caddy, check out:
http://www.newmodeus.com/

--
==========
Todd Young


From j at packetgod.com  Sun Jul 27 21:39:11 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 21:39:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <916e208f0807270853q5814daband3e0a8ea28192666@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807270237.20112.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<916e208f0807270853q5814daband3e0a8ea28192666@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0807271939s15c350baq9ad0c15350f7a595@mail.gmail.com>

Can you grab some sniffs we could analyze?  They may point towards a
specific network issue depending on arps and responses.

--j

On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 10:53 AM, Robert Brown <rbrown at rawmindz.com> wrote:
> Yeah, that was my initial thought.  Sudden network flakiness, outta
> the blue, on an otherwise normally functioning network, in my
> experience, has often pointed to a bad switch.  Probably the easiest
> thing to rule out.
>
> Rob
>
> On Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 2:37 AM, Jeremy <tclug at lizakowski.com> wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps the internal switch/hub is flaking out, but the embedded *nix chip is
>> ok.  Overheating of the router?   Noisy line voltage?  Or it could be a blown
>> capacitor or other HW issues.
>>
>> It might be easiest to try another router, or replace it with a hub/switch and
>> see if the local net is ok.  Or, put the local net on a switch that feeds
>> into the router, so that local traffic never touches the router.
>>
>> Jeremy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday 26 July 2008 11:00:36 pm Yaron wrote:
>>> Hey all,
>>>
>>> I'm having some bad network flakeyness, just came out of nowhere...
>>> connections between hosts on the local network are really bad, huge
>>> amounts of packet loss OCCASSIONALLY. Like suddenly you can't connect to
>>> the DNS server. Or you're SSH'd onto a machine and suddenly THAT dies...
>>> and then comes back.
>>>
>>> If I do pings I I get up to 50% packet loss.
>>>
>>> These is between all and every hosts.
>>>
>>> Except the router - perfect connectivity to THAT.
>>>
>>> I need some tools to try and figure that out. I've tried wireshark but I
>>> see nothing unusual there.
>>>
>>> Anyone know any good tools or have any ideas? This is kinda driving me
>>> nuts!
>>>
>>>
>>> -Yaron
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sun Jul 27 22:08:58 2008
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2008 22:08:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0807271939s15c350baq9ad0c15350f7a595@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807270237.20112.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<916e208f0807270853q5814daband3e0a8ea28192666@mail.gmail.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807271939s15c350baq9ad0c15350f7a595@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807272207070.3958@dragon>

On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, J Cruit wrote:

> Can you grab some sniffs we could analyze?  They may point towards a
> specific network issue depending on arps and responses.

I looked at sniffs - there was nothign at all unusual except sometimes 
traffic wasn't getting anywhere (you'd see requests but no responses, and 
eventual timeouts).

It did seem to be centered aroudn one switch, so I went and bought a new 
one and now things seem fine.

Note: I did not actually INSTALL the new switch, or even take it out of 
the package. I just /bought/ it.


Sometimes computers just want to make you spend money on them...



-Yaron

--


From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Jul 28 02:19:52 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 02:19:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807271351150.16531@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEEDICLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 1:58 PM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
>
>
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote:
>
> > The chances that the floppies themselves are actually any good are
> > fairly low. Back in the mid 90's in the midst of a move I checked all
> > the 5.25" floppies I had, as at that point it had been years since I
> > used them, and the vast majority of them had errors.  My guess is that
> > unless these were very recently written there's probably no usable data
> > left on them.

Depends on such things as media quality (ie, some function of ?coercivity? in the magnetic coating, plus the recording
?energydetails?)... some last, some are easily recoverable, and some aren?t.  Adjacent magnetic domains influence each other and are
likely to smear to nothing in time.  Lower temps can extend that,and some combos change very slowly.  Hard drives will do this also,
but the many layers of ?smarts? in modern drives that do error checking and re-writing are likely to hide what really happens, and
extend data life greatly...  if power is on often enough.


> I wasn't the original poster on this one, but...
>
> I'm surprised to hear that these disks are expected to fail at this point.
> I guess it has been 20 years since I looked at some of my old disks but I
> was thinking I could copy some of the files off of them, copy them to my
> HDD and toss the disks in the trash.
>
> They really don't last this long if kept in a cool dry place, in their
> sleeve in one of those old disk cases?

Might be a crap shoot.  It?s a combo of media qualities plus recording signal ?energy? details.  No simple way to check anything,
except to try to copy to a hard disk, then to a CD.  My old floppies are usually readable and/or recoverable.  Some of mine go back
as far as 5.25 inch media can...  c1980?


> I thought they would last longer.  I have watched some VHS tapes made 20
> years ago and they still work fine -- not digital, but they are magnetic
> media.

It is in fact an analog waveform on the media, and the biphase-like ?signal waveform? can fade.  Blurring to increase the
inter-symbol interference is the most common kind of error, but some old media actually have the oxide flake off.  CRC by sector and
other ?clumpings? helps detect and recover errors (when enough oxide stays stuck on).  I think punched cards may be the only truly
digital media we?ve had.


Chuck



From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Jul 28 07:26:25 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 07:26:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807272207070.3958@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807270237.20112.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<916e208f0807270853q5814daband3e0a8ea28192666@mail.gmail.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807271939s15c350baq9ad0c15350f7a595@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.1.10.0807272207070.3958@dragon>
Message-ID: <4E938E7F-0331-47F3-8A75-8E62FB05E441@secure-computing.net>

On Jul 27, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Yaron wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, J Cruit wrote:

> ... so I went and bought a new
> one and now things seem fine.
>
> Note: I did not actually INSTALL the new switch, or even take it out  
> of
> the package. I just /bought/ it.
>
>
> Sometimes computers just want to make you spend money on them...

Just like women.

Sorry, I know you were all thinking it.
---
Eric Crist






From eoneil at fisdap.net  Mon Jul 28 12:05:53 2008
From: eoneil at fisdap.net (Eryn O'Neil)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:05:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <4E938E7F-0331-47F3-8A75-8E62FB05E441@secure-computing.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>	<200807270237.20112.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<916e208f0807270853q5814daband3e0a8ea28192666@mail.gmail.com>	<38aa5b6a0807271939s15c350baq9ad0c15350f7a595@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.1.10.0807272207070.3958@dragon>
	<4E938E7F-0331-47F3-8A75-8E62FB05E441@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <488DFC71.7090302@fisdap.net>

Eric F Crist wrote:
> On Jul 27, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Yaron wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, J Cruit wrote:
> 
>> ... so I went and bought a new
>> one and now things seem fine.
>>
>> Note: I did not actually INSTALL the new switch, or even take it out  
>> of
>> the package. I just /bought/ it.
>>
>>
>> Sometimes computers just want to make you spend money on them...
> 
> Just like women.
> 
> Sorry, I know you were all thinking it.
> ---

C-

-20% deduction for sexism
-10% deduction for assumption
+1% bonus for proper punctuation

  - Eryn


From josh at tcbug.org  Mon Jul 28 09:08:10 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:08:10 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging
In-Reply-To: <488DFC71.7090302@fisdap.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<4E938E7F-0331-47F3-8A75-8E62FB05E441@secure-computing.net>
	<488DFC71.7090302@fisdap.net>
Message-ID: <200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>

On Monday 28 July 2008 05:05:53 pm Eryn O'Neil wrote:
> Eric F Crist wrote:
> > On Jul 27, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Yaron wrote:
> >> On Sun, 27 Jul 2008, J Cruit wrote:
> >>
> >> ... so I went and bought a new
> >> one and now things seem fine.
> >>
> >> Note: I did not actually INSTALL the new switch, or even take it out
> >> of
> >> the package. I just /bought/ it.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sometimes computers just want to make you spend money on them...
> >
> > Just like women.
> >
> > Sorry, I know you were all thinking it.
> > ---
>
> C-
>
> -20% deduction for sexism
> -10% deduction for assumption
> +1% bonus for proper punctuation
>
>   - Eryn

You forgot the +150% bonus for being right.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com  Mon Jul 28 14:25:51 2008
From: john.t.hoffoss at gmail.com (John Hoffoss)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:25:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<4E938E7F-0331-47F3-8A75-8E62FB05E441@secure-computing.net>
	<488DFC71.7090302@fisdap.net> <200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>


On Jul 28, 2008, at 9:08 AM, Josh Paetzel wrote:
> On Monday 28 July 2008 05:05:53 pm Eryn O'Neil wrote:
>> Eric F Crist wrote:
>>> On Jul 27, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Yaron wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes computers just want to make you spend money on them...
>>>
>>> Just like women.
>>>
>>> Sorry, I know you were all thinking it.
>>
>> -20% deduction for sexism
>> -10% deduction for assumption
>> +1% bonus for proper punctuation
>
> You forgot the +150% bonus for being right.

Thanks for that dialog. I finally have been able to ascertain that  
this list serves no purpose for me whatsoever.

Cheers,

-jth


From josh at tcbug.org  Mon Jul 28 09:49:57 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:49:57 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>
	<CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200807281450.02140.josh@tcbug.org>

On Monday 28 July 2008 07:25:51 pm John Hoffoss wrote:
> On Jul 28, 2008, at 9:08 AM, Josh Paetzel wrote:
> > On Monday 28 July 2008 05:05:53 pm Eryn O'Neil wrote:
> >> Eric F Crist wrote:
> >>> On Jul 27, 2008, at 10:08 PM, Yaron wrote:
> >>>> Sometimes computers just want to make you spend money on them...
> >>>
> >>> Just like women.
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, I know you were all thinking it.
> >>
> >> -20% deduction for sexism
> >> -10% deduction for assumption
> >> +1% bonus for proper punctuation
> >
> > You forgot the +150% bonus for being right.
>
> Thanks for that dialog. I finally have been able to ascertain that
> this list serves no purpose for me whatsoever.
>
> Cheers,
>
> -jth
>

Glad I could be a part of helping you come to that realization.  For me this 
list is somewhere between /. and xkcd in amusement value.  Sorry if my 
failure to take it seriously burst your bubble.  If it's any help, I don't 
take linux ( or most linux users ) seriously either.  

If no bubble bursting was neccesary then all the better.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Mon Jul 28 15:12:31 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:12:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <200807281450.02140.josh@tcbug.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>
	<CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>
	<200807281450.02140.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <488DE1DF.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> Josh Paetzel <josh at tcbug.org> 7/28/2008 9:49 AM >>>
>On Monday 28 July 2008 07:25:51 pm John Hoffoss wrote:
>If it's any help, I don't take linux ( or most linux users ) seriously either.  

With so many charming ambassadors like our friend Josh,
I wonder why the *BSDs aren't more popular. ;-)

Troy





From tclug at beitsahour.net  Mon Jul 28 15:35:42 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:35:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <488DE1DF.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>	<200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>	<CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>	<200807281450.02140.josh@tcbug.org>
	<488DE1DF.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <488E2D9E.9000000@beitsahour.net>

Troy.A Johnson wrote:
>>>> Josh Paetzel <josh at tcbug.org> 7/28/2008 9:49 AM >>>
>> On Monday 28 July 2008 07:25:51 pm John Hoffoss wrote:
>> If it's any help, I don't take linux ( or most linux users ) seriously either.  
> 
> With so many charming ambassadors like our friend Josh,
> I wonder why the *BSDs aren't more popular. ;-)

Because the BSD fundies take every opportunity to troll?  :)


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Jul 28 15:48:52 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:48:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <488E2D9E.9000000@beitsahour.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>
	<CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>
	<200807281450.02140.josh@tcbug.org>
	<488DE1DF.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<488E2D9E.9000000@beitsahour.net>
Message-ID: <20080728204852.GF23661@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 03:35:42PM -0500, Munir Nassar wrote:
> Troy.A Johnson wrote:
> >>>> Josh Paetzel <josh at tcbug.org> 7/28/2008 9:49 AM >>>
> >> On Monday 28 July 2008 07:25:51 pm John Hoffoss wrote:
> >> If it's any help, I don't take linux ( or most linux users ) seriously either.  
> > 
> > With so many charming ambassadors like our friend Josh,
> > I wonder why the *BSDs aren't more popular. ;-)
> 
> Because the BSD fundies take every opportunity to troll?  :)

No, it's because they use vi and not vim!

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From j at packetgod.com  Mon Jul 28 16:16:48 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:16:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <20080728204852.GF23661@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>
	<CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>
	<200807281450.02140.josh@tcbug.org>
	<488DE1DF.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<488E2D9E.9000000@beitsahour.net>
	<20080728204852.GF23661@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0807281416l57132da7v6c8086c7828bfc21@mail.gmail.com>

On 7/28/08, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 03:35:42PM -0500, Munir Nassar wrote:
> > Troy.A Johnson wrote:
> > >>>> Josh Paetzel <josh at tcbug.org> 7/28/2008 9:49 AM >>>
> > >> On Monday 28 July 2008 07:25:51 pm John Hoffoss wrote:
> > >> If it's any help, I don't take linux ( or most linux users ) seriously either.
> > >
> > > With so many charming ambassadors like our friend Josh,
> > > I wonder why the *BSDs aren't more popular. ;-)
> >
> > Because the BSD fundies take every opportunity to troll?  :)
>
> No, it's because they use vi and not vim!
>
Yes well, VI or VIM is all well and good and can be a nice lively
debate but at least we aren't talking about... emacs users!  Those
lazy...

--j


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Jul 28 16:32:14 2008
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 16:32:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0807281416l57132da7v6c8086c7828bfc21@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<200807281408.15146.josh@tcbug.org>
	<CA0C23B4-94B0-4999-BCD8-7DC435C8DDFF@gmail.com>
	<200807281450.02140.josh@tcbug.org>
	<488DE1DF.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<488E2D9E.9000000@beitsahour.net>
	<20080728204852.GF23661@iris.iucha.org>
	<38aa5b6a0807281416l57132da7v6c8086c7828bfc21@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807281631380.6108@dragon>


I just want to point out that my network wasn't THAT broken!

-Yaron

--


From josh at tcbug.org  Mon Jul 28 12:48:54 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 17:48:54 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <20080728204852.GF23661@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0807262239001.31225@dragon>
	<488E2D9E.9000000@beitsahour.net>
	<20080728204852.GF23661@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <200807281749.04420.josh@tcbug.org>

On Monday 28 July 2008 08:48:52 pm Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 03:35:42PM -0500, Munir Nassar wrote:
> > Troy.A Johnson wrote:
> > >>>> Josh Paetzel <josh at tcbug.org> 7/28/2008 9:49 AM >>>
> > >>
> > >> On Monday 28 July 2008 07:25:51 pm John Hoffoss wrote:
> > >> If it's any help, I don't take linux ( or most linux users ) seriously
> > >> either.
> > >
> > > With so many charming ambassadors like our friend Josh,
> > > I wonder why the *BSDs aren't more popular. ;-)
> >
> > Because the BSD fundies take every opportunity to troll?  :)
>
> No, it's because they use vi and not vim!
>
> Cheers,
> florin

Well, not to drift dangerously factual, but in one of the more popular BSDs, 
FreeBSD, /usr/bin/vi is really a hardlink to /usr/bin/nvi, /bin/sh is really 
ash, not even hard linked, just gratuitously renamed.  /bin/tcsh is a 
hardlink to /bin/csh but you get different behavior if you invoke it as tcsh 
vs. csh.  awk in the base system is one-true-awk, but if you install gnu awk 
from ports you end up with a binary called gawk.  grep in the base system is 
gnu grep, but it's not called ggrep or gnugrep or anything like that.  more 
is a hardlink to less, but you get traditional more behavior if you invoke 
less as more instead of less.

I think my point is that even the most fearsome of luddites would find a 70's 
era UNIX horribly unproductive and uncomfortable to use, and I wouldn't let 
some hard core FreeBSD user bag on you cause he uses vi and you use vim, or 
that his /bin/sh isn't really bash, unless of course he's bagging on you 
cause vim and bash aren't actually backwards compatable with the original 
tools....

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Mon Jul 28 18:07:58 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:07:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807282307.m6SN7ww17229@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: K6/2 500 Tower PC

Tower PC:
K6/2 500Mhz
160 MB RAM
11.5 GB hard drive
IDE CDROM
3.5" floppy
3com 10/100 NIC
ISA modem
ATX motherboard, 250W power supply
on-board sound & video (shared 4M or 8M)
1 DB9 serial, 1 DB25 parallel, 2 USB ports
4 PCI slots, 1 is shared with ISA
includes PS/2 keyboard and mouse
Sorry, no monitor

Has Slackware 11 installed to test hardware.
Good desktop or test system, kids computer, or use to learn Linux. 

$20/OBO CASH ONLY
Email to arrange pickup in SW Mpls.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Mon Jul 28 18:31:41 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:31:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807282331.m6SNVfK20331@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Free

Subject: Athlon 1.2 ghz, ASUS mobo, 128mb ram - NO USB

Yes, I'm aware that this is old, but I have a proc+mobo+ram combo that I built about 8 years ago. Worked perfectly until the day that the USB controller stopped working. Could be good for a server or for legacy PC applications.

AMD Athlon 1.2 ghz
ASUS A7M266 Motherboard
128 MB DDR 266 ram

If you're interested, you're welcome to stop by and pick it up in Dinkytown, otherwise it'll get recycled when I get around to it.

FREE

Email to arrange pickup in Dinkytown.

Seller Email address: mat_the_w at charter dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Tue Jul 29 08:32:29 2008
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 08:32:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <200807281749.04420.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00DA4@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>


So, you're saying that with FreeBSD when you ask for more you get less.
Are you sure this isn't a government project?

Larry
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of Josh Paetzel
> Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 12:49 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
> 
> On Monday 28 July 2008 08:48:52 pm Florin Iucha wrote:
> > On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 03:35:42PM -0500, Munir Nassar wrote:
> > > Troy.A Johnson wrote:
> > > >>>> Josh Paetzel <josh at tcbug.org> 7/28/2008 9:49 AM >>>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Monday 28 July 2008 07:25:51 pm John Hoffoss wrote:
> > > >> If it's any help, I don't take linux ( or most linux users )
> seriously
> > > >> either.
> > > >
> > > > With so many charming ambassadors like our friend Josh,
> > > > I wonder why the *BSDs aren't more popular. ;-)
> > >
> > > Because the BSD fundies take every opportunity to troll?  :)
> >
> > No, it's because they use vi and not vim!
> >
> > Cheers,
> > florin
> 
> Well, not to drift dangerously factual, but in one of the more popular
> BSDs,
> FreeBSD, /usr/bin/vi is really a hardlink to /usr/bin/nvi, /bin/sh is
> really
> ash, not even hard linked, just gratuitously renamed.  /bin/tcsh is a
> hardlink to /bin/csh but you get different behavior if you invoke it
as
> tcsh
> vs. csh.  awk in the base system is one-true-awk, but if you install
gnu
> awk
> from ports you end up with a binary called gawk.  grep in the base
system
> is
> gnu grep, but it's not called ggrep or gnugrep or anything like that.
> more
> is a hardlink to less, but you get traditional more behavior if you
invoke
> less as more instead of less.
> 
> I think my point is that even the most fearsome of luddites would find
a
> 70's
> era UNIX horribly unproductive and uncomfortable to use, and I
wouldn't
> let
> some hard core FreeBSD user bag on you cause he uses vi and you use
vim,
> or
> that his /bin/sh isn't really bash, unless of course he's bagging on
you
> cause vim and bash aren't actually backwards compatable with the
original
> tools....
> 
> --
> Thanks,
> 
> Josh Paetzel
> 
> PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB


From josh at tcbug.org  Tue Jul 29 05:41:08 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:41:08 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Network debugging [OT for a long while now]
In-Reply-To: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00DA4@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
References: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00DA4@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <200807291041.15148.josh@tcbug.org>

On Tuesday 29 July 2008 01:32:29 pm Larry R. Pint wrote:
> So, you're saying that with FreeBSD when you ask for more you get less.
> Are you sure this isn't a government project?
>
> Larry

Remember that less is more.

The government funded TCP/IP development in BSD, I think that all ended a 
couple decades ago.  As far as I'm aware of there's no government funding 
driving current FreeBSD development.  At one point recently OpenBSD was going 
to get some US government funding, but that fell through for various reasons.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From canito at dalan.us  Tue Jul 29 15:09:47 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:09:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Is comcast blocking port 443?
In-Reply-To: <487AB61A.2080309@mtu.net>
References: <4879808F.7020305@bitstream.net> <487A029D.6090107@mtu.net>
	<487A10ED.6000706@bitstream.net>
	<20080713095425.ttvqt03pk40ckko8@mail.dalan.us>
	<487A29A8.6070804@bitstream.net> <487A843B.4000509@mtu.net>
	<476C6701-8ACE-4096-BD48-E726C9296017@secure-computing.net>
	<487AA108.3000603@jfoo.org>
	<3ECB3BAE-2B2E-422A-89EB-C0CAD640FD04@secure-computing.net>
	<487AB61A.2080309@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <20080729150947.58ah89728000c4ok@mail.dalan.us>

I got this in an e-mail today. And I don't know how relevant this is  
to this topic? I am just glad Comcast didn't play the "national  
security" card on the this deal otherwise we'd all be screwed either  
way.

--FCC to Vote on Comcast Issue
(July 28, 2008)
The US Federal Communications Commission (FCC) will likely vote this
week on an order to enact enforcement against Comcast for deliberately
blocking or degrading Internet traffic to thwart filesharing.  Comcast
says it only slowed traffic for network management during peak usage
times.  If the FCC agrees that Comcast violated federal policy, Comcast
will be prohibited from slowing and blocking traffic and will have to
make its practices clear to its customers.  Comcast maintains that the
FCC does not have the authority to impose penalties.  The issue is on
the FCC's August 1 agenda.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/services/data/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=209602109

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/28/BUAB120T33.DTL

http://government.zdnet.com/?p=3907

[Editor's Note (Ullrich): This topic may have more impact on network
security then many think. A key question that has been heavily debated
in the past is whether and how ISPs like Comcast should manage traffic,
and whether ISPs should be allowed, or even required, to block some
malicious traffic.
(Schultz): This case promises to be drawn out and dramatic; Comcast
declares that the FCC has no authority in situations such as this one
and the FCC maintains that it very much does. Whatever ruling comes out
of it will be yet another that helps define the limits of power (or lack
thereof) for ISPs, especially big and powerful ones such as Comcast.]

David

Quoting Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net>:

> Eric F Crist wrote:
>>> Or switch to DSL and ipHouse - I've been using this setup for years...
>>>
>>
>>
>> I second the DSL w/ipHouse (www.iphouse.com).  They're fairly
>> reasonable on their pricing, and I've not experienced any port
>> blocking from them.  Also, the folks over there are pretty capable.
>>
> The problem is that DSL isn't available for many of us and it's slower
> for the same price. Granted the ability to run servers is worth
> something too.
>
> --
> Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
> If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature.
> See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.
>
> For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,
> neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor
> depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from
> the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Wed Jul 30 07:33:18 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:33:18 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807271351150.16531@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org><a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com><200807271202.02044.josh@tcbug.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807271351150.16531@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60107B3FB@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

>I wasn't the original poster on this one, but...
>I'm surprised to hear that these disks are expected to fail at this point. 
>I guess it has been 20 years since I looked at some of my old disks but I 
>was thinking I could copy some of the files off of them, copy them to my 
>HDD and toss the disks in the trash


I believe storage is the key.  The magnetic domains should be good to the Curie point (768?C for iron) but hot, humid conditions affects the support medium, turning it into a gooey mess.  I recall a spot on NPR about a steam pipe breaking at the Smithsonian and the resulting loss of irreplaceable jazz recordings.  I have cassette tapes that are over 20 years old and still play.  Of course analog recordings may degrade more gracefully than digital.  

If the original poster can find a 5.25" floppy drive, I would be interested to know if the data transfer is successful.




From j at packetgod.com  Wed Jul 30 08:56:49 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 08:56:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60107B3FB@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807271202.02044.josh@tcbug.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807271351150.16531@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60107B3FB@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>

You know I just found a box of good old five and a quarters (remember
the old whole punch read/write trick?) and if someone does have access
to a drive perhaps I could borrow it to try to transfer data?  Or
maybe at the next meeting we could work up a transfer station :)

--j

On 7/30/08, Smith, Craig A <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> >I wasn't the original poster on this one, but...
> >I'm surprised to hear that these disks are expected to fail at this point.
> >I guess it has been 20 years since I looked at some of my old disks but I
> >was thinking I could copy some of the files off of them, copy them to my
> >HDD and toss the disks in the trash
>
>
> I believe storage is the key.  The magnetic domains should be good to the Curie point (768?C for iron) but hot, humid conditions affects the support medium, turning it into a gooey mess.  I recall a spot on NPR about a steam pipe breaking at the Smithsonian and the resulting loss of irreplaceable jazz recordings.  I have cassette tapes that are over 20 years old and still play.  Of course analog recordings may degrade more gracefully than digital.
>
> If the original poster can find a 5.25" floppy drive, I would be interested to know if the data transfer is successful.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Wed Jul 30 10:07:44 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 10:07:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60107B3FB@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200807301007.44656.tclug@lizakowski.com>


Somewhere in storage I have a couple boxes of 8" floppies.  This includes a 
compiler :)

No, I don't have the correspondng machine :(

Jeremy


On Wednesday 30 July 2008 8:56:49 am J Cruit wrote:
> You know I just found a box of good old five and a quarters (remember
> the old whole punch read/write trick?) and if someone does have access
> to a drive perhaps I could borrow it to try to transfer data?  Or
> maybe at the next meeting we could work up a transfer station :)
>
> --j
>
> On 7/30/08, Smith, Craig A <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> > >I wasn't the original poster on this one, but...
> > >I'm surprised to hear that these disks are expected to fail at this
> > > point. I guess it has been 20 years since I looked at some of my old
> > > disks but I was thinking I could copy some of the files off of them,
> > > copy them to my HDD and toss the disks in the trash
> >
> > I believe storage is the key.  The magnetic domains should be good to the
> > Curie point (768?C for iron) but hot, humid conditions affects the
> > support medium, turning it into a gooey mess.  I recall a spot on NPR
> > about a steam pipe breaking at the Smithsonian and the resulting loss of
> > irreplaceable jazz recordings.  I have cassette tapes that are over 20
> > years old and still play.  Of course analog recordings may degrade more
> > gracefully than digital.
> >
> > If the original poster can find a 5.25" floppy drive, I would be
> > interested to know if the data transfer is successful.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jul 30 11:08:27 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:08:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807301007.44656.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60107B3FB@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807301007.44656.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807301105020.8834@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Jeremy wrote:

> Somewhere in storage I have a couple boxes of 8" floppies.  This 
> includes a compiler :)
>
> No, I don't have the correspondng machine :(


That's going to be hard to find, I think.  The 5.25" drives are still 
available.  It looks like you can buy a pack of 10 drives for $50 here:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=5.25%22+floppy+drive&btnG=Search+Products&show=dd&cid=8035882264078681859

Here's a dual 8" for $404.10:

http://www.recycledgoods.com/itemdetails.aspx?productID=23651

Mike


From john.meier at gmail.com  Wed Jul 30 11:18:27 2008
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:18:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807271202.02044.josh@tcbug.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807271351150.16531@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60107B3FB@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65293fcc0807300918h6b88bbdaub5eb796e1711798f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:56 AM, J Cruit <j at packetgod.com> wrote:

> You know I just found a box of good old five and a quarters (remember
> the old whole punch read/write trick?) and if someone does have access
> to a drive perhaps I could borrow it to try to transfer data?  Or
> maybe at the next meeting we could work up a transfer station :)
>

I have 3 5.25 drives and a couple boxes (still shrink wrapped) of blank 5.25
disks.  FREE pickup in bloomington.
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jul 30 11:59:10 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 11:59:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <65293fcc0807300918h6b88bbdaub5eb796e1711798f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<a636ca1d0807270722q7a70a59bx9b840f7206c8585d@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807271202.02044.josh@tcbug.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807271351150.16531@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60107B3FB@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
	<65293fcc0807300918h6b88bbdaub5eb796e1711798f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807301153450.8834@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, John Meier wrote:

> On Wed, Jul 30, 2008 at 8:56 AM, J Cruit <j at packetgod.com> wrote:
>
>> You know I just found a box of good old five and a quarters (remember 
>> the old whole punch read/write trick?) and if someone does have access 
>> to a drive perhaps I could borrow it to try to transfer data?  Or maybe 
>> at the next meeting we could work up a transfer station :)
>
> I have 3 5.25 drives and a couple boxes (still shrink wrapped) of blank 
> 5.25 disks.  FREE pickup in bloomington.


Ha!  I'll bet there is a lot more interest in the drives than in the 
disks.  Are they 360 KB disks or the fancy high density "HD" 1.2 MB disks?

It's funny to remember that I used to think I could never fill one of 
those 360 KB disks with my word processor files.  Back then Word Perfect 
files weren't a lot different from plain text, so it took a long time to 
type a 20 KB document (I was not much of a typist at first).

Mike


From josh at tcbug.org  Wed Jul 30 07:40:47 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 12:40:47 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807301007.44656.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807301007.44656.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <200807301240.54022.josh@tcbug.org>

On Wednesday 30 July 2008 03:07:44 pm Jeremy wrote:
> Somewhere in storage I have a couple boxes of 8" floppies.  This includes a
> compiler :)
>
> No, I don't have the correspondng machine :(
>
> Jeremy
>
> On Wednesday 30 July 2008 8:56:49 am J Cruit wrote:
> > You know I just found a box of good old five and a quarters (remember
> > the old whole punch read/write trick?) and if someone does have access
> > to a drive perhaps I could borrow it to try to transfer data?  Or
> > maybe at the next meeting we could work up a transfer station :)
> >
> > --j
> >
> > On 7/30/08, Smith, Craig A <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> > > >I wasn't the original poster on this one, but...
> > > >I'm surprised to hear that these disks are expected to fail at this
> > > > point. I guess it has been 20 years since I looked at some of my old
> > > > disks but I was thinking I could copy some of the files off of them,
> > > > copy them to my HDD and toss the disks in the trash
> > >
> > > I believe storage is the key.  The magnetic domains should be good to
> > > the Curie point (768?C for iron) but hot, humid conditions affects the
> > > support medium, turning it into a gooey mess.  I recall a spot on NPR
> > > about a steam pipe breaking at the Smithsonian and the resulting loss
> > > of irreplaceable jazz recordings.  I have cassette tapes that are over
> > > 20 years old and still play.  Of course analog recordings may degrade
> > > more gracefully than digital.
> > >
> > > If the original poster can find a 5.25" floppy drive, I would be
> > > interested to know if the data transfer is successful.

Unfortunately digital recordings don't tolerate degradation at all.  A single 
bit error is enough to make a binary file unusable....whereas you can lose a 
vast amount of analog information and still make out what song you're 
listening to.

Case in point, 20 years ago cassette tape sucked ass as a medium for music, 
but it was livable.  Using cassettes for digital storage however was so 
incredibly painful you only tolerated it if you had no other choice.

There are tape mediums that have shelf lives in the 30 year range, 
unfortunately floppies were not designed to have a long shelf life.  I 
believe I was testing 5.25" floppies in 1998 when I was preparing to move 
from Michigan to Minnesota.  They had been stored in a cool dry dark place 
and were for the most part all junk.  I think they were about 6 years old at 
that point.  Maybe a tad less.  The last machine I'd had with a 5.25" drive 
was a turbo XT 286 from the late 80's.  I know by 1994 I had a machine with 
no 5.25" drive, perhaps earlier.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jul 30 14:09:12 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:09:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807301240.54022.josh@tcbug.org>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807301007.44656.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<200807301240.54022.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807301403570.10444@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote:

> Unfortunately digital recordings don't tolerate degradation at all.  A 
> single bit error is enough to make a binary file unusable....whereas you 
> can lose a vast amount of analog information and still make out what 
> song you're listening to.

I'm not sure that's true.  I think it depends on the type of file and type 
of error.  Text files can tolerate tons of errors and still be readable, 
but if they are programs, one error *might* make the file unusable.


> There are tape mediums that have shelf lives in the 30 year range, 
> unfortunately floppies were not designed to have a long shelf life.  I 
> believe I was testing 5.25" floppies in 1998 when I was preparing to 
> move from Michigan to Minnesota.  They had been stored in a cool dry 
> dark place and were for the most part all junk.  I think they were about 
> 6 years old at that point.

I know that I've had a lot better luck than that!  I'll get out the old 
disks and see how they do.  Maybe yours were stored in a cool, dry, dark 
place on top of an electromagnet.  Or maybe your disk drive was the 
problem.

Mike


From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 30 14:38:07 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 14:38:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807301240.54022.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Josh Paetzel
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:41 AM
>
> Unfortunately digital recordings don't tolerate degradation at all.  A single
> bit error is enough to make a binary file unusable....whereas you can lose a
> vast amount of analog information and still make out what song you're
> listening to.

My engineeering knowledge and experience differs somewhat from your summaries here.

Even floppies used sector-wise CRC, so errors are usually detectable even if one has not used an error detecting and correcting
shell like zip, etc.

Single bit errors per sector are usually detectable and often correctable.  Storing without an integrity check layer is/was truly
unwise.  Modern drives automate much of that and hide the details from us most of the time.  We had to do such things manually in
the days of CP/M before MSDOS and PCs emerged.  Similar precautions were observed in the minicomputer world then.

Degradation of a digital signal begins as a signal-to-noise-ratio (SNR) reduction, and that may have a big margin before becoming
actual bit errors.
I cleaned the heads in my floppy drives reasonably often to assure a decent SNR, and I used top brands of media as well: perhaps
these factors have much to do with my general success in longevity of floppies.


> Case in point, 20 years ago cassette tape sucked ass as a medium for music,
> but it was livable.  Using cassettes for digital storage however was so
> incredibly painful you only tolerated it if you had no other choice.

There was no other personal computer choice before 8 inch floppies.  Media choice was important, as was proper signal waveform.
When set (and checked) to have good waveforms, the recording and playbacks were quite reliable, but SLOW.  I found that it was
important to verify that a recorder could and did meet NAB standards.  I may still have the NAB calibration tapes I bought, and do
have a very good Sony 3-head mono recorder that easily met the specs.  Cheap recorders produced waveforms that never had decent "eye
patterns", so it's no wonder some recordings were "not archival quality".  I had short-term problems with crummy recorders.

> There are tape mediums that have shelf lives in the 30 year range,
> unfortunately floppies were not designed to have a long shelf life.

I'm curious: is that just a supposition, or do you have any documention of that?  I think data of the day I had would indicate that
the medium was designed for best archival capability, but I didn't save any of that stuff.

> believe I was testing 5.25" floppies in 1998 when I was preparing to move
> from Michigan to Minnesota.  They had been stored in a cool dry dark place
> and were for the most part all junk.  I think they were about 6 years old at
> that point.  Maybe a tad less.

Not clear that you took any precaution at all to assure longevity.  I have only "spot checked" a few of my many floppies from c1984
and maybe older, but have had little difficulty with reading data, doing surface scan checks, and even an occasional re-recording in
place to assure good SNR.  I ran a club library and still have several hunderd pounds of 5.25 floppies in a good steel case "file
cabinet".  Some very dull rainy day, I'll move the "good stuff" over to CDs and get rid of the floppies.

My experience differs greatly from yours.  I think the old error-handling routines for floppies were/are available in source code
form in Z/CPR, the open-source version of CP/M... haven't looked in many years, tho.


Chuck



From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Wed Jul 30 15:39:22 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:39:22 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807301240.54022.josh@tcbug.org>
References: <mailman.7.1217091605.18313.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<38aa5b6a0807300656ta5f249dp121d43c4b09c9825@mail.gmail.com>
	<200807301007.44656.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<200807301240.54022.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6010B00E1@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>


> Unfortunately digital recordings don't tolerate degradation at all.  
> A single bit error is enough to make a binary file unusable....
 
Are you sure?  Floppies, like hard disks, include a cyclic redundancy
check (CRC) to detect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_formatting#Low-level_formatting_of_flo
ppy_disks
and, at least in the case of single bit, *correct* the error.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Error_correction#Error-correcting_code 




From josh at tcbug.org  Wed Jul 30 11:09:42 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 16:09:42 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200807301609.47550.josh@tcbug.org>

On Wednesday 30 July 2008 07:38:07 pm Chuck Cole wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Josh Paetzel
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:41 AM
> >
> > Unfortunately digital recordings don't tolerate degradation at all.  A
> > single bit error is enough to make a binary file unusable....whereas you
> > can lose a vast amount of analog information and still make out what song
> > you're listening to.
>
> My engineeering knowledge and experience differs somewhat from your
> summaries here.
>
> Even floppies used sector-wise CRC, so errors are usually detectable even
> if one has not used an error detecting and correcting shell like zip, etc.
>
> Single bit errors per sector are usually detectable and often correctable. 
> Storing without an integrity check layer is/was truly unwise.  Modern
> drives automate much of that and hide the details from us most of the time.
>  We had to do such things manually in the days of CP/M before MSDOS and PCs
> emerged.  Similar precautions were observed in the minicomputer world then.
>
> Degradation of a digital signal begins as a signal-to-noise-ratio (SNR)
> reduction, and that may have a big margin before becoming actual bit
> errors.
> I cleaned the heads in my floppy drives reasonably often to assure a decent
> SNR, and I used top brands of media as well: perhaps these factors have
> much to do with my general success in longevity of floppies.
>
> > Case in point, 20 years ago cassette tape sucked ass as a medium for
> > music, but it was livable.  Using cassettes for digital storage however
> > was so incredibly painful you only tolerated it if you had no other
> > choice.
>
> There was no other personal computer choice before 8 inch floppies.  Media
> choice was important, as was proper signal waveform. When set (and checked)
> to have good waveforms, the recording and playbacks were quite reliable,
> but SLOW.  I found that it was important to verify that a recorder could
> and did meet NAB standards.  I may still have the NAB calibration tapes I
> bought, and do have a very good Sony 3-head mono recorder that easily met
> the specs.  Cheap recorders produced waveforms that never had decent "eye
> patterns", so it's no wonder some recordings were "not archival quality". 
> I had short-term problems with crummy recorders.
>

What personal computer predated the 8" floppy?  

> > There are tape mediums that have shelf lives in the 30 year range,
> > unfortunately floppies were not designed to have a long shelf life.
>
> I'm curious: is that just a supposition, or do you have any documention of
> that?  I think data of the day I had would indicate that the medium was
> designed for best archival capability, but I didn't save any of that stuff.
>
> > believe I was testing 5.25" floppies in 1998 when I was preparing to move
> > from Michigan to Minnesota.  They had been stored in a cool dry dark
> > place and were for the most part all junk.  I think they were about 6
> > years old at that point.  Maybe a tad less.
>
> Not clear that you took any precaution at all to assure longevity.  I have
> only "spot checked" a few of my many floppies from c1984 and maybe older,
> but have had little difficulty with reading data, doing surface scan
> checks, and even an occasional re-recording in place to assure good SNR.  I
> ran a club library and still have several hunderd pounds of 5.25 floppies
> in a good steel case "file cabinet".  Some very dull rainy day, I'll move
> the "good stuff" over to CDs and get rid of the floppies.
>
> My experience differs greatly from yours.  I think the old error-handling
> routines for floppies were/are available in source code form in Z/CPR, the
> open-source version of CP/M... haven't looked in many years, tho.
>
>
> Chuck
>

The documentation varies depending on it's age.  Documentation from 20 years 
ago suggests a properly stored floppy may have a shelf life of 30 years.  
Documentation from today suggests floppies have a shelf life of a couple 
years.  

Perhaps the disparagy in documentation is rooted in either the widespread 
discovery that the shelf life isn't as long as it was once thought?  Or 
perhaps proper storage is difficult?

It's been a long time since I've had to deal with floppies on any sort of 
consistant basis, but I don't ever recall considering them a reliable storage 
medium on any platform.

I'm not sure I took any precautions to ensure the longevity of the floppies I 
put out to pasture either, other than being careful where I stored them.  
It's possible they were exposed to large magnetic fields, it's equally 
possible my floppy drives controllers or cables were junk.  It's also 
possible that floppies don't last as long as one might think.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Jul 30 20:16:19 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 20:16:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807301609.47550.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Josh Paetzel [mailto:josh at tcbug.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 11:10 AM
>
> What personal computer predated the 8" floppy?

Altair 8800, MITS, Cromemco, Sol-20, Apple, Kim, TRS-80, Commodore, ...

.. many!  Some were based upon the 8080, others the 6502.

My first, c1971, was based on the 8008, a predecessor of the 8080. It was a re-programmed "smart terminal" with an I/O selectric and
optical paper tape reader.  Audio tape on my next machine, a Sol-20, was a big improvement  :-)

Google for "first personal computer".  Here's a ref:  http://www.maxmon.com/1973ad.htm


Chuck



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Jul 30 22:03:39 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:03:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807302153470.20396@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:

>> What personal computer predated the 8" floppy?
>
> Altair 8800, MITS, Cromemco, Sol-20, Apple, Kim, TRS-80, Commodore, ...
>
> .. many!  Some were based upon the 8080, others the 6502.
>
> My first, c1971, was based on the 8008, a predecessor of the 8080.

Your source says that chip came out in November 1972.

Here's a list of some disks and when they were introduced:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Disk_formats

I'm surprised to see how early some of these came out.  I remember a 
friend telling me that he used to pay $10 for one 360K 5?" floppy, but by 
then (1988?) we were getting HD 5?" disks (1155 KB) for $1.

Mike

From josh at tcbug.org  Thu Jul 31 02:05:56 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 07:05:56 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807302153470.20396@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807302153470.20396@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200807310706.02171.josh@tcbug.org>

On Thursday 31 July 2008 03:03:39 am Mike Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
> >> What personal computer predated the 8" floppy?
> >
> > Altair 8800, MITS, Cromemco, Sol-20, Apple, Kim, TRS-80, Commodore, ...
> >
> > .. many!  Some were based upon the 8080, others the 6502.
> >
> > My first, c1971, was based on the 8008, a predecessor of the 8080.
>
> Your source says that chip came out in November 1972.
>
> Here's a list of some disks and when they were introduced:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Disk_formats
>
> I'm surprised to see how early some of these came out.  I remember a
> friend telling me that he used to pay $10 for one 360K 5?" floppy, but by
> then (1988?) we were getting HD 5?" disks (1155 KB) for $1.
>
> Mike

It seems 8008 based "personal computers" weren't available until 1973 
according to your link. An 8" read/write floppy was available in 1972. (read 
only versions a year prior to that)

The TRS-80 wasn't introduced until 1977, The KIM in 1975, the Apple I in 1976, 
the altair 8800 in 1974, the SOL-20 (which I have to admit I never saw in 
actual use in their heyday) seems to have started design in 1975 but seems to 
have gone on sale in 1977, the Cromenco Z-1 in 1976....all years after the 8" 
floppy.

I'm old enough to remember the "crazy person down the street who had a 
computer in his house" and this was 1978.  What I also remember is that if 
you could afford a computer you generally could afford a (relatively 
expensive) floppy drive.  I wasn't old enough to know much about economics, 
and given that personal computer sales figures were in the tens of thousands 
per year in the 70's I didn't know that many people with computers, but they 
almost all had floppy drives, and the ones that didn't weren't happy about 
saving to cassette tape.

-- 
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Jul 31 10:03:13 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 10:03:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807302153470.20396@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEEBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:04 PM
>
> On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > My first, c1971, was based on the 8008, a predecessor of the 8080.
>
> Your source says that chip came out in November 1972.

Memory error (the floppy is OK, though).  Had to have been 73 or layer, because I met the friend who identified the opportunity in
'73.  Was before '75, which is kinda "c1971"  :-)    That 8008 system was some kind of "intelligent" workstation, and I got it after
it was "retired" by something newer and more suited to the "unskilled" clerical users.  I think it did mailmerge letters originally,
but I swapped its Eproms to diagnostic ones that allowed me to write assemply language programs to do my stuff... which was business
stuff for my sideline business.  Kept it and its I/O Selectric in service as a as a business quality printer.  Had it about a year
before I got my Sol-20 which had been out roughly 6mos to a year before I bought.

>
> Here's a list of some disks and when they were introduced:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk#Disk_formats
>
> I'm surprised to see how early some of these came out.  I remember a
> friend telling me that he used to pay $10 for one 360K 5?" floppy, but by
> then (1988?) we were getting HD 5?" disks (1155 KB) for $1.

Group and bulk buys were certainly important then, but I don't remember ever paying as much as $10 each.  $3 was "good".


Chuck



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Jul 31 13:11:18 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:11:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] longevity of floppy disks
In-Reply-To: <200807310706.02171.josh@tcbug.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEEACLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0807302153470.20396@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200807310706.02171.josh@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0807311253581.9609@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote:

> in the 70's I didn't know that many people with computers, but they 
> almost all had floppy drives, and the ones that didn't weren't happy 
> about saving to cassette tape.

I would think that floppies were much faster.

I was born in 1958.  I went to Worcester Polytechnic Institute (WPI) in 
1976.  No student had a computer.  We had hand-held calculators.  The 
computers supplied by the university would astonish you today -- no 
monitor, just a printer terminal where you'd type a line and then see it 
printed out.  There were very few terminals and comp sci students stayed 
up all night to have a chance to use them.  Very primitive, and that was a 
good school, ranked #1 in undergrad engineering education at that time, or 
so they claimed.

I don't remember knowing anyone who owned a computer until the early 1980s 
and I do remember a computer from that era with a cassette tape for 
storage.  I didn't see any floppies until somewhere around 1985.

I know the floppies existed but they just weren't being used by everyday 
people.  The only 8" floppies I have ever seen were being used by 
secretaries at UW-Madison in their specialized word processing machines 
(not general purpose computers) when I got there in 1986, but those 
floppies were quickly replaced by newer technology (I think they moved 
them to PCs running Word Perfect).

I definitely wasn't hanging out with cutting-edge computer folk.  I was 
just an ordinary guy.  All the fancy computer stuff that was out there in 
the world was not in my local environment.  Maybe if I had lived in a 
wealthy neighborhood I would have known people with floppy drives in the 
1970s (I wish I did!).  In my high school in Massachusetts (I graduated in 
1976) we had one computer and it used a paper tape with little holes that 
I believe were read mechanically.  I learned to program it in BASIC.  A 
classroom of kids had to take turns typing in their programs and few of us 
knew how to type.  I'm glad those days are gone!

Mike


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Thu Jul 31 14:08:31 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:08:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807311908.m6VJ8VH15362@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Dell PowerVault NAS device

Dell PowerVault NAS device

This is a 1U RAID system. It holds up to 4 IDE hard disks ranging from 40 GB to 120 GB each. Allows you to create RAID 0, 1, or 5 and share it via the network to Windows, Apple, and UNIX/Linux clients via FTP, NFS, Samba. Lookup documentation at http:// support.dell.com  /support/edocs/ stor%2Dsys/scobain/

model: 705N
*** THERE ARE NO DRIVES WITH THIS UNIT *** but you can purchase some cheap online.

$30 CASH ONLY, email to arrange pickup in SW Mpls


Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Thu Jul 31 14:18:58 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:18:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807311918.m6VJIwQ17070@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: dual Pentium Pro 200Mhz

AOpen tower PC:
dual Pentium Pro 200Mhz
196M ram
10G IDE disk
3com 10/100 NIC
56K ISA modem
Adaptec 2940 SCSI controller
24x SCSI cdrom
3.5" floppy
ports: 1 DB9 serial, 1 DB25 serial, 1 DB25 parallel, ps/s mouse & keybd

$30 CASH ONLY, email to arrange pickup in SW Mpls

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Thu Jul 31 14:26:29 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:26:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807311926.m6VJQTJ18472@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Pentium Pro 200 Mhz

Gateway ATX tower PC:
Pentium Pro 200 Mhz
128M ram
4.3G IDE disk
IDE 50x cdrom
3.5" floppy
S3 PCI 4M video
Ensoniq Soundscape ISA sound card
Intel 10/100 NIC
ports: 2 DB9 serial, 1 DB25 parallel, ps2 keybd & mouse
No OS installed, drive has been DBAN'd

$20 CASH ONLY, email to arrange pickup in SW Mpls

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Thu Jul 31 14:57:13 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 14:57:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200807311957.m6VJvDp20791@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Compaq Prolinea 4100 desktops

Two Compaq Prolinea 4100 desktop computers:
486 DX4/100 CPU
32 MB ram
540 MB disk, No OS, drive DBAN'd
3.5" floppy
1 3com 3c509 10M ISA NIC
4 ISA slots, 1 is shared with a PCI
ports: 1 DB9 serial, 1 DB25 parallel, on-board Cirrus Logic VGA, PS/2 mouse & keybd

Very reliable systems. These made very good firewalls or X terminals when running Linux.

$10 each, $20 for the pair CASH ONLY, email to arrange pickup in SW Mpls

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi