From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Oct  1 00:02:21 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:02:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80809302130k1d4e0ce7h9bb6ef1011530731@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80809301813p1afc394bva3ce2add7e018815@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net>
	<a2a149b80809302130k1d4e0ce7h9bb6ef1011530731@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <561D6FDD-4E97-40AF-8D03-EF3FDCBA16C9@secure-computing.net>

On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:30 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote:

> Hi Eric,
>
> Maybe I misunderstood the whole "rebuild" thing. You said:
> <Many applications can be built natively on Linux with little, or  
> no, modification.  In most cases, there is no reason to 'rebuild' an  
> application.>
>
> Could you explain this more? Maybe this is what I was thinking of.


Nick,

Many, maybe most, applications are offered as pre-compiled binaries.   
For the vast majority of people, these pre-compiled binaries will work  
fine.  That being said, there are applications written for Solaris,  
FreeBSD, other, that are written closely enough for generic *nix, that  
they can follow the same ol' ./configure && make && make install  
routine, with little or no modification.  The fact of the matter is  
that more applications than not are written and already compiled  
against the Linux kernel.  Re-compiling will give you very little  
benefit.

Some fringe cases where the extra work may pay off involve special  
hardware.  Whether it is simply old hardware (low RAM/slow proc) or  
embedded systems, or specialty hardware (Gx Macs, alpha, etc).  If  
you're running x86 or x64 on modern hardware, don't waste your time  
compiling, if there's a binary available.

Last, the biggest benefit of pre-compiled packages is the fact that  
they're packages.  This includes a mechanism to install the necessary  
dependencies and configuration files.  Source, typically, only  
compiles the binaries.  Here, again, you're best off using the  
packages/RPMs/ports/etc.

HTH
---
Eric Crist






From tclug at lizakowski.com  Wed Oct  1 00:27:29 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:27:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20080930161534.025ebee0@pop.mm.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200809301108.38422.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20080930161534.025ebee0@pop.mm.com>
Message-ID: <200810010027.29088.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> See the novel "A Clockwork Orange", or Kubrick's move version, for an
> elaboration of this theme.

That just brings up visions of a person being beaten with a piece of 
artwork...

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 4:35:03 pm Dean.Benjamin at mm.com wrote:
> At 9/30/2008 11:08 AM, Jeremy wrote:
> > > "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?"
> >
> >In order for evil to exist, you must be able to choose it.
>
> Almost.  More precisely:
>
> For moral behavior to exist, one must have the freedom to choose
> between good and evil.
>
> If the only option is good behavior, one cannot behave morally.
> Likewise, if the only option is evil.
>
> See the novel "A Clockwork Orange", or Kubrick's move version, for an
> elaboration of this theme.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 00:26:26 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:26:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source
In-Reply-To: <561D6FDD-4E97-40AF-8D03-EF3FDCBA16C9@secure-computing.net>
References: <a2a149b80809301813p1afc394bva3ce2add7e018815@mail.gmail.com>
	<7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net>
	<a2a149b80809302130k1d4e0ce7h9bb6ef1011530731@mail.gmail.com>
	<561D6FDD-4E97-40AF-8D03-EF3FDCBA16C9@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80809302226o5d6240a3l8bafdeed76e6dd03@mail.gmail.com>

That does clarify things. Thank you :)


On Wed, Oct 1, 2008 at 12:02 AM, Eric F Crist
<ecrist at secure-computing.net>wrote:

> On Sep 30, 2008, at 11:30 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote:
>
>  Hi Eric,
>>
>> Maybe I misunderstood the whole "rebuild" thing. You said:
>> <Many applications can be built natively on Linux with little, or no,
>> modification.  In most cases, there is no reason to 'rebuild' an
>> application.>
>>
>> Could you explain this more? Maybe this is what I was thinking of.
>>
>
>
> Nick,
>
> Many, maybe most, applications are offered as pre-compiled binaries.  For
> the vast majority of people, these pre-compiled binaries will work fine.
>  That being said, there are applications written for Solaris, FreeBSD,
> other, that are written closely enough for generic *nix, that they can
> follow the same ol' ./configure && make && make install routine, with little
> or no modification.  The fact of the matter is that more applications than
> not are written and already compiled against the Linux kernel.  Re-compiling
> will give you very little benefit.
>
> Some fringe cases where the extra work may pay off involve special
> hardware.  Whether it is simply old hardware (low RAM/slow proc) or embedded
> systems, or specialty hardware (Gx Macs, alpha, etc).  If you're running x86
> or x64 on modern hardware, don't waste your time compiling, if there's a
> binary available.
>
> Last, the biggest benefit of pre-compiled packages is the fact that they're
> packages.  This includes a mechanism to install the necessary dependencies
> and configuration files.  Source, typically, only compiles the binaries.
>  Here, again, you're best off using the packages/RPMs/ports/etc.
>
> HTH
> ---
> Eric Crist
>
>
>
>
>


-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From tclug at lizakowski.com  Wed Oct  1 00:31:46 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 00:31:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <1222792639.406.1276775065@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200809301108.38422.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<1222792639.406.1276775065@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <200810010031.46385.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> People don't chose poverty, natural disasters, disease, etc. which are
> considered evils.

Good point.  However, I was referring to evil choices.  Dean's comment about 
morality is a better expression of what I meant.

On Tuesday 30 September 2008 11:37:19 am Isaac Atilano wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:08:38 -0500, "Jeremy" <tclug at lizakowski.com>
>
> said:
> > > "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?"
> >
> > In order for evil to exist, you must be able to choose it.
>




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 01:40:22 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 01:40:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 07:51:44PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Which Linux distros are true 64-bit OSs?  If I buy a PC with a couple 
>> of X5460 chips...
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon#5400-series_.22Harpertown.22
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Xeon_microprocessors#.22Harpertown.22_.28standard-voltage.2C_45_nm.29
>>
>> ...which Linux distros will have 64-bit packages ready to run on that 
>> architecture making full use of the available memory (e.g., 16 GB RAM)?
>
> All the major Linux distributions have 64-bit kernel/binaries:
>
>   Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos


I guess Ubuntu runs on all sorts of 64-bit Intel chips and chipsets, so 
that won't be a problem.  But are the packages also compiled for the 
64-bit architecture?  For most packages it probably won't matter much. 
Maybe this is the right answer:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=785743

I'll also have to make sure that Oracle will run on that system before I 
buy it (I think I mentioned before that I'm stuck in Oracle world for now 
but may go to PostgreSQL someday).

Thanks, Florin.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 01:51:50 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 01:51:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80809302113q1e63521cm626d0726ede8ec67@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80809301813p1afc394bva3ce2add7e018815@mail.gmail.com>
	<68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80809302023j1e3fd79cs6082549aa125e20@mail.gmail.com>
	<68dbb6fe0809302058j39e62211k59b87e6458525de2@mail.gmail.com>
	<a2a149b80809302113q1e63521cm626d0726ede8ec67@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010144160.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote:

> Thanks. You've crushed my hope and ambitions and I know wade through a 
> thick sludge of bitter anguish.
>
> Wait a minute. You said "99.44% myth."

He probably should have said 99.44% *pure* myth.


> That's . . . . .66% not-myth. So you're sayin' there's a chance!

That's actually 0.56% not-myth, so not as much of a chance.  ;-)


What you were hearing is that if a package (including precompiled 
binaries), was not available, you could download the source code and 
compile it.  That only works if the source code is available to you (and 
is not easy to compile programs if you have never done it!)

But you are interested in running a program where the source code is not 
available to you and you have, probably, precompiled windows binaries. 
For this you need to run Windows within Linux or forget about it.  To run 
Windows within Linux I think you can use VirtualBox for this:

http://www.virtualbox.org/

Let us know if that works.

Mike


From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  1 02:30:22 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 02:30:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010144160.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEOBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 1:52 AM
>
> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote:
>
> > Thanks. You've crushed my hope and ambitions and I know wade through a
> > thick sludge of bitter anguish.
> >
> > Wait a minute. You said "99.44% myth."
>
> He probably should have said 99.44% *pure* myth.
>
>
> > That's . . . . .66% not-myth. So you're sayin' there's a chance!
>
> That's actually 0.56% not-myth, so not as much of a chance.  ;-)
>
>
> What you were hearing is that if a package (including precompiled
> binaries), was not available, you could download the source code and
> compile it.

I think what he read dates from long ago when recompiling was often highly desirable or even necessary for various hardware, and was
applicable to basic Linux "apps" and not for proprietary stuff at all.  Things have improved so much in the last 3-5 years or so
that many old "guidelines" like that are no longer valid.


Chuck





From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Wed Oct  1 07:48:03 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 07:48:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3479.1222831467.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3479.1222831467.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <48E37183.1000002@twp-llc.com>

> Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:13:00 -0500
> From: "Nick Scholtes" <airchia at gmail.com>

> I would like to re-build Lightwave 3D to run on
> Linux. (Actually, I have a number of graphics applications I use that I
> would like to re-build on Linux.)

As has been suggested, there are tools already in place, or well-started.

Instead of Lightwave, give Blender [1] a try. If it's good enough for 
Spider-Man 2 and the History Channel, it's probably already pretty good. 
If it's missing something you want or need, you can change the code 
yourself, or hire someone (get a collection for a bounty together) to 
make it happen.

For any graphics application you can name, there's probably an open 
replacement well under way, and there are many ways to help those 
projects along. Join the communities, help with testing, documentation, 
evangelism, raise money, code, etc.

Chris

[1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)


From haircut at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 09:31:32 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 09:31:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <48E2BCA7.9060501@tcbug.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301038560.2168@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> <200809301651.08296.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<48E2BCA7.9060501@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <1222871492.28742.6.camel@scraps>

On Tue, 2008-09-30 at 18:56 -0500, Josh Paetzel wrote:
> Thankfully I live in America and have the right to ignore him.

Indeed! And I'm glad to see you have all but ignored him.

/me proceeds to hijack...

There have also been some points in this thread related to copyright.
Karl Fogel is an inspiring author about copyright history:
http://questioncopyright.org . Amazing stuff! And quite contrary to
conventional wisdom supporting copyright as a Good Thing.

One issue I've always wondered is if we could successfully do away with
copyright, would the GPL be unenforceable? He says no, we could use
other means to protect copyleft.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  1 09:32:41 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:32:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081001143241.GA3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 01:40:22AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> >> ...which Linux distros will have 64-bit packages ready to run on that 
> >> architecture making full use of the available memory (e.g., 16 GB RAM)?
> >
> > All the major Linux distributions have 64-bit kernel/binaries:
> >
> >   Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos
> 
> I guess Ubuntu runs on all sorts of 64-bit Intel chips and chipsets, so 
> that won't be a problem.  But are the packages also compiled for the 
> 64-bit architecture?  For most packages it probably won't matter much. 
> Maybe this is the right answer:
> 
> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=785743

If you install Ubuntu/Debian AMD64, then all you get is 64-bit compiled
binaries.  If you want to run 32-bit applications, you need to install
the ia32-libs package.

Fedora AMD64 by default installs a large number of 32-bit libraries,
so you can run your old binaries without too much trouble.

> I'll also have to make sure that Oracle will run on that system before I 
> buy it (I think I mentioned before that I'm stuck in Oracle world for now 
> but may go to PostgreSQL someday).

Oracle has a 64-bit versions for most of the supported platforms,
including Linux.  With Oracle (and most proprietary packages) it might
be easier to use Centos/OpenSuse since the instructions will probably
be tailored to RedHat and Suse.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Wed Oct  1 09:48:06 2008
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 09:48:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <1222871492.28742.6.camel@scraps>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48E2BCA7.9060501@tcbug.org> <1222871492.28742.6.camel@scraps>
Message-ID: <200810010948.06904.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>

> One issue I've always wondered is if we could successfully do away with
> copyright, would the GPL be unenforceable? He says no, we could use
> other means to protect copyleft.
Not even rms wants to do away with copyright.  He believes that "functional" 
works, such as dictionaries, encyclopedias, software manuals etc. should be 
under a copyleft license that allows you to fix and update information.  He 
does not believe that anyone should be able to modify creative expression 
works that do not serve another purpose, such as artwork and pieces of music, 
opinion-based writing, etc.


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 10:13:46 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:13:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>

Just don't get confused by the two different types of 64 bit processors.

As long as you are talking about AMD64, or x86-64 - pretty must all of
the distros support it.  This is what most people mean when they say
64 bit.  Pretty much every common processor supports the AMD64
extensions these days.


There is, however, another 64 bit architecture - the Intel Itanium
chips - not nearly as many distros support that - I see that redhat /
fedora does http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/IA64

Those processors are typically much more expensive, however.


From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 12:28:28 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 12:28:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810011028n2c3e55f6uf95ffc8f95ffc247@mail.gmail.com>

Odds of running into Itanium systems without knowing what you've got seems
fairly low. :-)

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 16:10:54 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:10:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810011028n2c3e55f6uf95ffc8f95ffc247@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3a54b020810011028n2c3e55f6uf95ffc8f95ffc247@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011610230.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Andrew Zbikowski wrote:

> Odds of running into Itanium systems without knowing what you've got 
> seems fairly low. :-)

Because of that missing arm and leg?!  ;-)

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 16:24:23 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:24:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <20081001143241.GA3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001143241.GA3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011615290.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> If you install Ubuntu/Debian AMD64, then all you get is 64-bit compiled 
> binaries.  If you want to run 32-bit applications, you need to install 
> the ia32-libs package.
>
> Fedora AMD64 by default installs a large number of 32-bit libraries, so 
> you can run your old binaries without too much trouble.

That's a big help, thanks!  I thought the 32-bit apps could run on the 
64-bit OS but I didn't know about the library issue.

If I were using apt-get, would it notify me if the app I was downloading 
was a 32-bit version?


>> I'll also have to make sure that Oracle will run on that system before 
>> I buy it (I think I mentioned before that I'm stuck in Oracle world for 
>> now but may go to PostgreSQL someday).
>
> Oracle has a 64-bit versions for most of the supported platforms, 
> including Linux.  With Oracle (and most proprietary packages) it might 
> be easier to use Centos/OpenSuse since the instructions will probably be 
> tailored to RedHat and Suse.

Right -- I have seen info about their connection to RHEL.  I'll be doing 
some more analysis to figure out what distro will be best for me.  I've 
been using RHEL for years and Ubuntu for a few months and Ubuntu seems to 
be a lot easier for me.  I like apt-get, for one.  RHEL software is often 
way out of date.

Regarding basic stability of the system:  I wonder if there are any 
differences among the distros.  They may have the same kernel and most of 
the same libraries, so what are the important differences?  What 
differences would affect functioning of Oracle or the Oracle installation 
process?

Do the newest versions of these distros conform to Linux Standard Base 
(LSB)?  If so, doesn't that make them much more alike than they used to 
be?

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 16:27:47 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:27:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011624280.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Dan Armbrust wrote:

> Just don't get confused by the two different types of 64 bit processors.
>
> As long as you are talking about AMD64, or x86-64 - pretty must all of 
> the distros support it.  This is what most people mean when they say 64 
> bit.  Pretty much every common processor supports the AMD64 extensions 
> these days.
>
>
> There is, however, another 64 bit architecture - the Intel Itanium chips 
> - not nearly as many distros support that - I see that redhat / fedora 
> does http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/IA64
>
> Those processors are typically much more expensive, however.

Right about IA64.  But haven't the 64-bit Xeon's gotten a lot of 
marketshare lately?  I think what you have written is what I would have 
written a couple of years ago but now that I am shopping again, it looks 
like Xeon x5400 series are 64-bit quad-core chips that come on a lot of 
server systems.

So will software compiled for AMD x64 work just as well on Xeon x64?  It 
looked like the Ubuntu web page on 64-bit OS was making no important 
distinction between AMD and Intel.

Mike


From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 16:55:18 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 16:55:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011624280.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011624280.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810011455i43513d44p7f0ccf3a5345e933@mail.gmail.com>

> So will software compiled for AMD x64 work just as well on Xeon x64?  It
> looked like the Ubuntu web page on 64-bit OS was making no important
> distinction between AMD and Intel.

All of Intel's current main stream 64 bit chips use the same 64 bit
extensions as AMD. Celerorn, Core2, Xeon are all amd64 (or x64,
orx86-64, or EM64T, or....) AMD developed the extended instruction
set, and various Linux distros adopted AMD64 before Intel began
offering it's own 64 bit chips using the x86-64 bit extensions, and
before the industry had adopted a vendor neutral moniker for x86
processors with the 64 bit extensions.

The exception is the Itanium line of processors, which is Intel and
HP's own brand of foot crushing 64 bit computing. (IA-64).

--
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 17:05:18 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:05:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810011455i43513d44p7f0ccf3a5345e933@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011624280.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<e3a54b020810011455i43513d44p7f0ccf3a5345e933@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011700240.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Andrew Zbikowski wrote:

>> So will software compiled for AMD x64 work just as well on Xeon x64? 
>> It looked like the Ubuntu web page on 64-bit OS was making no important 
>> distinction between AMD and Intel.
>
> All of Intel's current main stream 64 bit chips use the same 64 bit 
> extensions as AMD. Celerorn, Core2, Xeon are all amd64 (or x64, 
> orx86-64, or EM64T, or....) AMD developed the extended instruction set, 
> and various Linux distros adopted AMD64 before Intel began offering it's 
> own 64 bit chips using the x86-64 bit extensions, and before the 
> industry had adopted a vendor neutral moniker for x86 processors with 
> the 64 bit extensions.
>
> The exception is the Itanium line of processors, which is Intel and HP's 
> own brand of foot crushing 64 bit computing. (IA-64).


Thanks.  Now I get it.  I guess when Dan Armbrust referred to AMD64 he 
meant to include all chips using those 64-bit extensions (such as Xeon 
x5400 series).

All of you have helped me a lot to understand what the issues are.  I feel 
a lot more confident about making a purchase now.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  1 17:21:35 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:21:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011615290.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001143241.GA3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011615290.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081001222135.GG3139@iris.iucha.org>

Mike,

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 04:24:23PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>> If you install Ubuntu/Debian AMD64, then all you get is 64-bit compiled 
>> binaries.  If you want to run 32-bit applications, you need to install the 
>> ia32-libs package.
>>
>> Fedora AMD64 by default installs a large number of 32-bit libraries, so 
>> you can run your old binaries without too much trouble.
>
> That's a big help, thanks!  I thought the 32-bit apps could run on the 
> 64-bit OS but I didn't know about the library issue.
>
> If I were using apt-get, would it notify me if the app I was downloading 
> was a 32-bit version?

I don't think it would explicitly.  It might drop subtle hints, such
as asking you if you want to install ia32-libs (unless you already
have it), or show you the package names which would contain i386
instead of amd64.

>>> I'll also have to make sure that Oracle will run on that system before I 
>>> buy it (I think I mentioned before that I'm stuck in Oracle world for now 
>>> but may go to PostgreSQL someday).
>>
>> Oracle has a 64-bit versions for most of the supported platforms, 
>> including Linux.  With Oracle (and most proprietary packages) it might be 
>> easier to use Centos/OpenSuse since the instructions will probably be 
>> tailored to RedHat and Suse.
>
> Right -- I have seen info about their connection to RHEL.  I'll be doing 
> some more analysis to figure out what distro will be best for me.  I've 
> been using RHEL for years and Ubuntu for a few months and Ubuntu seems to 
> be a lot easier for me.  I like apt-get, for one.  RHEL software is often 
> way out of date.

You mean "stable", right?

> Regarding basic stability of the system:  I wonder if there are any 
> differences among the distros.  They may have the same kernel and most of 
> the same libraries, so what are the important differences?

RedHat performs more 'internal' testing of the bits before putting
them on a shiny disk and charging money for it.  They also have some
number of sales suits which talk the sweet talk to other suits, making
them fuzzy and willing to part with cash.  Seriously, through their
direct support of Linux development, training and certification
program, business deals, and longer history, they look more polished
and professional than Ubuntu.  Novell/Suse are in their own bubble.

'same kernel and libraries' is a really fuzzy concept.  Is 2.6.18 the
same kernel as 2.6.19?  Is 2.6.18 the same as 2.6.18+three patches?
Is 2.6.18 the same if two people configure it from scratch, enabling
different options?

>                                                              What 
> differences would affect functioning of Oracle or the Oracle installation 
> process?

The instructions might refer to files paths that you don't have or
installation scripts might try to modify the 'wrong' files.  And if
you call Oracle, for support, you might be refused on the grounds of
not using a 'supported' configuration.  That's why I suggested Centos,
because it is as close to RHEL as possible.

> Do the newest versions of these distros conform to Linux Standard Base 
> (LSB)?  If so, doesn't that make them much more alike than they used to be?

Yes, they do contain the LSB compatibility packages.  The problem is that
the vendors test against well-known versions of well-known commercial
distributions, and not against LSB.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 17:54:52 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:54:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <20081001222135.GG3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001143241.GA3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011615290.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001222135.GG3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011731440.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

>> I've been using RHEL for years and Ubuntu for a few months and Ubuntu 
>> seems to be a lot easier for me.  I like apt-get, for one.  RHEL 
>> software is often way out of date.
>
> You mean "stable", right?

Right -- that's the term!  ;-)  Well, the funny thing is, something that 
has been out for 3 years may not yet be labeled "stable."  Is that because 
it has proved in testing to be unstable, or is it because they haven't 
completed testing yet, or is it just that they are too lazy to get around 
to admitting that they should upgrade their packages?  I never know for 
sure, but I do know that there are bugs in some of the programs I'm using 
on RHEL that were fixed in a new release of that software several years 
ago.  So sometimes it seems like the old software I am using is literally 
unstable (prone to crash) and the newer versions are improved but not 
readily available to me (for my own protection, of course).

So, given the option, I prefer to just install the newest stuff and hope 
it is OK.  The alternative is to stick with old software that isn't being 
used anymore by most people, so it isn't continuing to stand the test of 
time.  Why should I think the old version of the software is better than 
the new?  The reason for changing it is to make it better.  Some things 
are a pain to upgrade, so I won't be in a hurry, and with a few things 
like sshd, it might be better to give it a few months after a new version 
comes out (or just not upgrade because of the hassle).


> 'same kernel and libraries' is a really fuzzy concept.  Is 2.6.18 the 
> same kernel as 2.6.19?  Is 2.6.18 the same as 2.6.18+three patches? Is 
> 2.6.18 the same if two people configure it from scratch, enabling 
> different options?

That's a good point.  I'll have to watch out for that.


>> What differences would affect functioning of Oracle or the Oracle 
>> installation process?
>
> The instructions might refer to files paths that you don't have or 
> installation scripts might try to modify the 'wrong' files.  And if you 
> call Oracle, for support, you might be refused on the grounds of not 
> using a 'supported' configuration.  That's why I suggested Centos, 
> because it is as close to RHEL as possible.

I'll have to study CentOS a little bit.  I've heard the name many times 
but never knew about the relationship to RHEL.

See, I thought the problems with "wrong files" were supposed to have been 
dealt with by the LSB, but...


>> Do the newest versions of these distros conform to Linux Standard Base 
>> (LSB)?  If so, doesn't that make them much more alike than they used to 
>> be?
>
> Yes, they do contain the LSB compatibility packages.  The problem is 
> that the vendors test against well-known versions of well-known 
> commercial distributions, and not against LSB.

Interesting.  I might have to get in touch with Oracle tech support to see 
what they say about Ubuntu.

I guess I don't understand LSB because I thought the idea was that distros 
would comply to a standard and then all programs would work on all 
distros.  The library versions would be the same and all paths to 
libraries and other important files would be the same.  It seems that you 
are saying that LSB is a set of packages that allow developers to make 
software that works with LSB, or they can ignore LSB and make it work on 
RHEL but not on Ubuntu, and so on.  I'm a little disappointed by where 
that went.  Getting cooperation from distro developers is probably like 
herding cats.

Mike


From bradyh at bitstream.net  Wed Oct  1 17:12:58 2008
From: bradyh at bitstream.net (Brady Hegberg)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 17:12:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011624280.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011624280.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <711437ED-B33A-430B-ADD9-4482532D8201@bitstream.net>

On Oct 1, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  
wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Dan Armbrust wrote:
>
>> Just don't get confused by the two different types of 64 bit  
>> processors.
>>
>> As long as you are talking about AMD64, or x86-64 - pretty must all  
>> of
>> the distros support it.  This is what most people mean when they  
>> say 64
>> bit.  Pretty much every common processor supports the AMD64  
>> extensions
>> these days.
>>
>>
>> There is, however, another 64 bit architecture - the Intel Itanium  
>> chips
>> - not nearly as many distros support that - I see that redhat /  
>> fedora
>> does http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/IA64
>>
>> Those processors are typically much more expensive, however.
>
> Right about IA64.  But haven't the 64-bit Xeon's gotten a lot of
> marketshare lately?  I think what you have written is what I would  
> have
> written a couple of years ago but now that I am shopping again, it  
> looks
> like Xeon x5400 series are 64-bit quad-core chips that come on a lot  
> of
> server systems.
>
> So will software compiled for AMD x64 work just as well on Xeon  
> x64?  It
> looked like the Ubuntu web page on 64-bit OS was making no important
> distinction between AMD and Intel.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

And while you're discussing this subject, how does zLinux on IBM/S390  
fit in?

-Brady


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Oct  1 18:08:42 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:08:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net><48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net><48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291208100.949@taxa.epi.umn.edu><02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com><Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291715520.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu><035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>

> Apparently, the FreeBSD supporters make a big issue of it, but really all 
> Stallman is doing is saying that he doesn't recommend FreeBSD for that 
> reason.  If they want him to recommend it, they'll have to change it. 
> It's not that he is doing something wrong.  His thing is to promote free 
> software, and he can do that better by not recommending FreeBSD.  He isn't

> attacking FreeBSD, he's just not recommending it.
>
> Mike

Agreed; however RMS's own software suggests to users that they could/should
use non-free software since gcc and emacs have Windows, Solaris, etc binary
files, source patches, etc. The general problem as outlined by Theo (once
you read past the personal attacks) is that RMS is not so holy and dedicated
to his own cause as he claims thru words and thru actions and is labeled a
hypocrite.

Sorry for the late reply in the game, I've been busy. Hope I don't agitate
anyone by resuming the thread.



From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  1 18:23:12 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:23:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011731440.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001143241.GA3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011615290.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001222135.GG3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011731440.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081001232312.GH3139@iris.iucha.org>

Mike,

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 05:54:52PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>>> I've been using RHEL for years and Ubuntu for a few months and Ubuntu 
>>> seems to be a lot easier for me.  I like apt-get, for one.  RHEL software 
>>> is often way out of date.
>>
>> You mean "stable", right?
>
> Right -- that's the term!  ;-)  Well, the funny thing is, something that 
> has been out for 3 years may not yet be labeled "stable."  Is that because 
> it has proved in testing to be unstable, or is it because they haven't 
> completed testing yet, or is it just that they are too lazy to get around 
> to admitting that they should upgrade their packages?  I never know for 
> sure, but I do know that there are bugs in some of the programs I'm using 
> on RHEL that were fixed in a new release of that software several years 
> ago.  So sometimes it seems like the old software I am using is literally 
> unstable (prone to crash) and the newer versions are improved but not 
> readily available to me (for my own protection, of course).
>
> So, given the option, I prefer to just install the newest stuff and hope it 
> is OK.  The alternative is to stick with old software that isn't being used 
> anymore by most people, so it isn't continuing to stand the test of time.  
> Why should I think the old version of the software is better than the new?  
> The reason for changing it is to make it better.  Some things are a pain to 
> upgrade, so I won't be in a hurry, and with a few things like sshd, it 
> might be better to give it a few months after a new version comes out (or 
> just not upgrade because of the hassle).

Software is never 'done'.  There are always at least a few things to
'fix' or 'enhance', and all the twiddling can add new things to 'fix'
or 'enhance'.  Bjarne Stroustrup said "There are only two kinds of
languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses",
and the same can be said about software in general.

>>> What differences would affect functioning of Oracle or the Oracle 
>>> installation process?
>>
>> The instructions might refer to files paths that you don't have or 
>> installation scripts might try to modify the 'wrong' files.  And if you 
>> call Oracle, for support, you might be refused on the grounds of not using 
>> a 'supported' configuration.  That's why I suggested Centos, because it is 
>> as close to RHEL as possible.
>
> I'll have to study CentOS a little bit.  I've heard the name many times but 
> never knew about the relationship to RHEL.
>
> See, I thought the problems with "wrong files" were supposed to have been 
> dealt with by the LSB, but...
>
>
>>> Do the newest versions of these distros conform to Linux Standard Base 
>>> (LSB)?  If so, doesn't that make them much more alike than they used to 
>>> be?
>>
>> Yes, they do contain the LSB compatibility packages.  The problem is that 
>> the vendors test against well-known versions of well-known commercial 
>> distributions, and not against LSB.
>
> Interesting.  I might have to get in touch with Oracle tech support to see 
> what they say about Ubuntu.
>
> I guess I don't understand LSB because I thought the idea was that distros 
> would comply to a standard and then all programs would work on all distros. 
>  The library versions would be the same and all paths to libraries and 
> other important files would be the same.  It seems that you are saying that 
> LSB is a set of packages that allow developers to make software that works 
> with LSB, or they can ignore LSB and make it work on RHEL but not on 
> Ubuntu, and so on.  I'm a little disappointed by where that went.  Getting 
> cooperation from distro developers is probably like herding cats.

To be fair, it's not the distro developer's fault.  On one hand, they had
their own ideas about 'how things should be done', in terms of packaging,
configuration, build options, frequency of release, etc.  On the other
hand, the software vendors were used to supporting the releases from
the major OS vendors, which happened every few years and were (and
still are, if you ignore the security hot-fixes) very conservative.
Sun was releasing Solaris every other year.  HP-UX, about the same.
Windows NT was every three years or so.  And then Linux exploded with
this myriad of distributions all similar but different 8^)  It's already
hard to test your own software on a single platform.  Doubling or
tripling your test matrix is hard to justify.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  1 18:25:26 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:25:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros
In-Reply-To: <711437ED-B33A-430B-ADD9-4482532D8201@bitstream.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810010813i5067ec5ar8350dd48fb848794@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011624280.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<711437ED-B33A-430B-ADD9-4482532D8201@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <20081001232526.GI3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 05:12:58PM -0500, Brady Hegberg wrote:
> And while you're discussing this subject, how does zLinux on IBM/S390  
> fit in?

Is that 31 bits or 63?  Comfortably I'd say, with room to spare 8^)

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Wed Oct  1 18:48:10 2008
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:48:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <200810011848.10150.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>

> Agreed; however RMS's own software suggests to users that they could/should
> use non-free software since gcc and emacs have Windows, Solaris, etc binary
> files, source patches, etc. The general problem as outlined by Theo (once
> you read past the personal attacks) is that RMS is not so holy and
> dedicated to his own cause as he claims thru words and thru actions and is
> labeled a hypocrite.
Stallman is _far_ from hypocritical.  There was a discussion about this just a 
little while ago on emacs-devel.  RMS wanted to get rid of the 
Windows/Solaris/whatever port of emacs, but there was a strong objection.  
The conclusion was that having these ports of GNU software helped lead people 
to freedom, instead of making the system all or nothing.  That way people 
could use parts of the system, possibly fall in love with the pieces of 
software or their philosophies, and eventually switch to GNU/Linux.  The 
ports also made life "bearable" for Free Software lovers who were forced to 
use proprietary operating systems for whatever reason.

He may be an extremist, but he is _not_ a hypocrite.


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 18:57:06 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 18:57:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net><48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net><48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291208100.949@taxa.epi.umn.edu><02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com><Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291715520.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu><035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011851260.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Justin Krejci wrote:

>> Apparently, the FreeBSD supporters make a big issue of it, but really 
>> all Stallman is doing is saying that he doesn't recommend FreeBSD for 
>> that reason.  If they want him to recommend it, they'll have to change 
>> it. It's not that he is doing something wrong.  His thing is to promote 
>> free software, and he can do that better by not recommending FreeBSD. 
>> He isn't attacking FreeBSD, he's just not recommending it.
>
> Agreed; however RMS's own software suggests to users that they 
> could/should use non-free software since gcc and emacs have Windows, 
> Solaris, etc binary files, source patches, etc. The general problem as 
> outlined by Theo (once you read past the personal attacks) is that RMS 
> is not so holy and dedicated to his own cause as he claims thru words 
> and thru actions and is labeled a hypocrite.


Stallman used to do all of his development work on a proprietary UNIX 
system, eventually replacing everything but the kernel.  I think he has to 
allow us to move a step at a time toward his position, just as he moved a 
step at a time to get there.

This was an interesting thread and I did learn a few things from it even 
though I've been reading about Stallman, etc., for a long time now. 
There's always something new.

I hope many TCLUGers will come out for Stallman's talk.  Maybe we can meet 
somewhere afterward.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  1 19:08:20 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:08:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011851260.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011851260.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002000820.GJ3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 06:57:06PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> This was an interesting thread and I did learn a few things from it even 
> though I've been reading about Stallman, etc., for a long time now. 
> There's always something new.

Ditto.

> I hope many TCLUGers will come out for Stallman's talk.  Maybe we can meet 
> somewhere afterward.

Excellent idea.  Maybe we need some TCG/LUG badges so we can coalesce
easier?

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 19:37:25 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:37:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <200810011848.10150.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<200810011848.10150.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Max Shinn wrote:

>> Agreed; however RMS's own software suggests to users that they 
>> could/should use non-free software since gcc and emacs have Windows, 
>> Solaris, etc binary files, source patches, etc. The general problem as 
>> outlined by Theo (once you read past the personal attacks) is that RMS 
>> is not so holy and dedicated to his own cause as he claims thru words 
>> and thru actions and is labeled a hypocrite.

> Stallman is _far_ from hypocritical.  There was a discussion about this 
> just a little while ago on emacs-devel.  RMS wanted to get rid of the 
> Windows/Solaris/whatever port of emacs, but there was a strong 
> objection. The conclusion was that having these ports of GNU software 
> helped lead people to freedom, instead of making the system all or 
> nothing.  That way people could use parts of the system, possibly fall 
> in love with the pieces of software or their philosophies, and 
> eventually switch to GNU/Linux.  The ports also made life "bearable" for 
> Free Software lovers who were forced to use proprietary operating 
> systems for whatever reason.
>
> He may be an extremist, but he is _not_ a hypocrite.


I don't have very strong feelings about Stallman, the person, but I do 
have strong feelings about the goodness of some of his works, especially 
the Free Software concept.

So, there is a very tricky question that I have struggled with too: 
Should we make Windows versions of free software available?  I think maybe 
it is a good idea.  Many people are stuck on Windows at work.  For me 
Cygwin has been a godsend, but Cygwin is really not nearly as good as 
Linux.  One major difference is in slowness of directory listings -- super 
slow on Cygwin compared to Linux.  Things like "perl -pi -e exp" just 
don't work on Cygwin -- it has to make a .bak file.

So I think we should make things work on Windows, but not as well.  If 
someone wants to have a really good computing experience, they'll just 
have to dump Windows altogether.  Make people wait a few extra months for 
upgrades on Windows, stuff like that.  If Linux has no advantages, they 
won't make the switch.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  1 19:41:51 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 19:41:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002000820.GJ3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011851260.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002000820.GJ3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011939590.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

>> I hope many TCLUGers will come out for Stallman's talk.  Maybe we can 
>> meet somewhere afterward.
>
> Excellent idea.  Maybe we need some TCG/LUG badges so we can coalesce 
> easier?


Let's see -- don't we usually pick a place, then someone brings the 
stuffed penguin toy and puts it on the table so that we know where to go? 
If we can do that again, that will probably work.

Where should we meet?  Town Hall Brewery?  They have good beer.

Mike


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 20:55:59 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 20:55:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011939590.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002000820.GJ3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011939590.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810012056.01141.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Wednesday October 1 2008 19:41:51 Mike Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:
> >> I hope many TCLUGers will come out for Stallman's talk.  Maybe we can
> >> meet somewhere afterward.
> >
> > Excellent idea.  Maybe we need some TCG/LUG badges so we can coalesce
> > easier?
>
> Let's see -- don't we usually pick a place, then someone brings the
> stuffed penguin toy and puts it on the table so that we know where to go?
> If we can do that again, that will probably work.
>
> Where should we meet?  Town Hall Brewery?  They have good beer.
>
> Mike

I'm there. It'd make a delightful first meeting for me to attend!

-pete
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From pjcrump at bitstream.net  Wed Oct  1 21:39:44 2008
From: pjcrump at bitstream.net (PJ Crump)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:39:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Errors and Omission Insurance Costs??
Message-ID: <48E43470.1080504@bitstream.net>

I have a friend of mine that is an independent consultant in Detroit and 
he wanted me to ask around and see how much independents are paying for 
E&O (Errors and Omission Insurance).  He was quoted a price of $200 
bucks a quarter..  Does that sound reasonable??  Since I know he will 
ask, does anyone have any contacts for this type of insurance?

-Thanks


From drue at therub.org  Wed Oct  1 22:05:54 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:05:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<200810011848.10150.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 07:37:25PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> So I think we should make things work on Windows, but not as well.  If 
> someone wants to have a really good computing experience, they'll just 
> have to dump Windows altogether.  Make people wait a few extra months for 
> upgrades on Windows, stuff like that.  If Linux has no advantages, they 
> won't make the switch.

Here we go again.  First it's "we're just not recommending $x - nobody's
stopping you".  Now it's time to get the big hammer out and *restrict*
people's freedom of choice.  

It's simple.  You can not get more freedom by restricting access or
choice.  You just can't.  Freedom means being free to make a choice that
others consider wrong, dangerous, or foolish.  

Perhaps there would be less objection to the FSF and associated antics
if it were called the "GNU software foundation".  It's certainly not
about freedom.  

drue

-- 
As implied by email protocols, the information in this message is not
not confidential.  Any middle-man or recipient may inspect, modify,
copy, forward, reply to, delete, or filter email for any purpose.  As
the sender, I acknowledge that I have less expectation of the control
and privacy of this message than I would a post-card.  As a result,
nothing in this message is legally binding without cryptographic proof
of its integrity, and no legal obligation can be implied on behalf of
the recipient.  http://bilbo.hobbiton.org/wiki/Eat_My_Sig


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 22:23:33 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:23:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
Message-ID: <200810012223.35972.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Wednesday October 1 2008 22:05:54 Dan Rue wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 07:37:25PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > So I think we should make things work on Windows, but not as well.  If
> > someone wants to have a really good computing experience, they'll just
> > have to dump Windows altogether.  Make people wait a few extra months for
> > upgrades on Windows, stuff like that.  If Linux has no advantages, they
> > won't make the switch.
>
> Here we go again.  First it's "we're just not recommending $x - nobody's
> stopping you".  Now it's time to get the big hammer out and *restrict*
> people's freedom of choice.
>
> It's simple.  You can not get more freedom by restricting access or
> choice.  You just can't.  Freedom means being free to make a choice that
> others consider wrong, dangerous, or foolish.
>
> Perhaps there would be less objection to the FSF and associated antics
> if it were called the "GNU software foundation".  It's certainly not
> about freedom.
>
> drue

No one's restricting you from doing a thing. No one's stopping you from 
checking out the code yourself and doing whatever you want to it and giving it 
to whoever you want to give it to for whatever purpose you wish. No one's 
restricting your access, no one's restricting your choices.

But that doesn't make it a free ride.

-p.
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From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  1 22:30:47 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 22:30:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
Message-ID: <200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Wednesday October 1 2008 22:05:54 Dan Rue wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 07:37:25PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > So I think we should make things work on Windows, but not as well.  If
> > someone wants to have a really good computing experience, they'll just
> > have to dump Windows altogether.  Make people wait a few extra months for
> > upgrades on Windows, stuff like that.  If Linux has no advantages, they
> > won't make the switch.
>
> Here we go again.  First it's "we're just not recommending $x - nobody's
> stopping you".  Now it's time to get the big hammer out and *restrict*
> people's freedom of choice.
>
> It's simple.  You can not get more freedom by restricting access or
> choice.  You just can't.  Freedom means being free to make a choice that
> others consider wrong, dangerous, or foolish.
>
> Perhaps there would be less objection to the FSF and associated antics
> if it were called the "GNU software foundation".  It's certainly not
> about freedom.
>
> drue

No one's restricting you from doing anything. No one's restricting your access 
or your choices. No one's stopping you from using it, or sharing it, or 
checking out the code and doing whatever you want with it, making it run 
wherever you want, giving it to whoever you want, for whatever reason. 
Yesterday, today, tomorrow, forever. Guaranteed.

It's free as in "free speech," not "free ride."

-p.
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From strayf at freeshell.org  Wed Oct  1 22:32:22 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:32:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>	<200810011848.10150.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
Message-ID: <48E440C6.7080505@freeshell.org>

Dan Rue wrote:
> [...]
> It's simple.  You can not get more freedom by restricting access or
> choice.  You just can't.  Freedom means being free to make a choice that
> others consider wrong, dangerous, or foolish.  
> 

This may be getting off on a tangent, but...

You can get more freedom by restricting choice. In a free society no one
is free to choose to be enslaved. You cannot choose to give away your
civil and human rights. You can, of course, act like it if you want, but
if it went to court your "choice" to give up your rights would not hold up.

-Steve



From tclug at jfoo.org  Wed Oct  1 22:59:52 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 22:59:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <200810012056.01141.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081002000820.GJ3139@iris.iucha.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011939590.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810012056.01141.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48E44738.3060303@jfoo.org>

p.daniels wrote:
> On Wednesday October 1 2008 19:41:51 Mike Miller wrote:
> 
> 
>  > Where should we meet? Town Hall Brewery? They have good beer.
> 
>  >
> 
>  > Mike
> 
> I'm there. It'd make a delightful first meeting for me to attend!
> 
> -pete
> 

Same here... town hall has excellent beer!

j


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 01:28:28 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 01:28:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<200810011848.10150.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810020124390.27205@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Dan Rue wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 07:37:25PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> So I think we should make things work on Windows, but not as well.  If 
>> someone wants to have a really good computing experience, they'll just 
>> have to dump Windows altogether.  Make people wait a few extra months 
>> for upgrades on Windows, stuff like that.  If Linux has no advantages, 
>> they won't make the switch.
>
> Here we go again.  First it's "we're just not recommending $x - nobody's 
> stopping you".  Now it's time to get the big hammer out and *restrict* 
> people's freedom of choice.

Did you have a bad day or something?  All I'm saying is that developers of 
free software might help to promote free operating systems by making their 
software work better on free operating systems or releasing it sooner for 
the free operating systems.  In what sense is that "getting out the big 
hammer", whatever that means?

If someone who doesn't like that idea wants to do the extra work of 
porting a new release to a non-free OS in a big rush, they can do it. 
Developers are *free* to not port to an OS they don't feel like porting 
to.  Do you want to restrict their freedom?

Mike


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Thu Oct  2 08:28:15 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 08:28:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200810021328.m92DSFN02425@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Linksys 12V AC Adapter and 2 Routers

Here are 2 used routers:

First is a Linksys BEFW11S4 ver.4 wireless B router.  Has latest firmware & includes the a 12 volt 1000mA AC adapter.  The wireless portion has died.  It only functions as a wired router.
Second is a Linksys BEFSR41 ver.2 wired router with a 4 port switch, uplink port & WAN port.  Works great, latest firmware.  It comes with no AC adapter.

$5 Apple Valley





Seller Email address: pclinux at charter dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 10:10:22 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:10:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>

>> Here we go again. First it's "we're just not recommending $x - nobody's
>
>> stopping you". Now it's time to get the big hammer out and *restrict*
>
>> people's freedom of choice.
>
>>
>
>> It's simple. You can not get more freedom by restricting access or
>
>> choice. You just can't. Freedom means being free to make a choice that
>
>> others consider wrong, dangerous, or foolish.
>
>>
>
>> Perhaps there would be less objection to the FSF and associated antics
>
>> if it were called the "GNU software foundation". It's certainly not
>
>> about freedom.
>
>>
>
>> drue
>
> No one's restricting you from doing anything. No one's restricting your
> access or your choices. No one's stopping you from using it, or sharing it,
> or checking out the code and doing whatever you want with it, making it run
> wherever you want, giving it to whoever you want, for whatever reason.
> Yesterday, today, tomorrow, forever. Guaranteed.
>
> It's free as in "free speech," not "free ride."
>

Hmm, maybe you should check out the text of that GPL license again, if
you don't think it is restricting you.

There is a reason corporate America won't touch GPL when it comes to
writing other software.  Heck, even other major opensource
organizations like Apache and Eclipse won't touch GPL.

The Apache license gives you (the user) much more freedom than
anything GPL related, end of story.  The tradeoff, of course, is less
control over the software by the developer.  But hey, its the
developers choice.  I just hope that at some point, his views will
restrict him into obscurity, and more developers will switch to a
license that does provide more freedom to the users.

One really could make the argument that his views are very similar to
DRM, which I imagine most of us agree are bad.  You can use these 1's
and 0's, but only if you do so in exactly the way that I tell you you
can....


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 10:15:24 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:15:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810021015.29620.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Thursday October 2 2008 10:10:22 Dan Armbrust wrote:
> Hmm, maybe you should check out the text of that GPL license again, if
> you don't think it is restricting you.
>
> There is a reason corporate America won't touch GPL when it comes to
> writing other software.  Heck, even other major opensource
> organizations like Apache and Eclipse won't touch GPL.
>
> The Apache license gives you (the user) much more freedom than
> anything GPL related, end of story.  The tradeoff, of course, is less
> control over the software by the developer.  But hey, its the
> developers choice.  I just hope that at some point, his views will
> restrict him into obscurity, and more developers will switch to a
> license that does provide more freedom to the users.
>
> One really could make the argument that his views are very similar to
> DRM, which I imagine most of us agree are bad.  You can use these 1's
> and 0's, but only if you do so in exactly the way that I tell you you
> can....

Wrong. The GPL in no way restricts your use of the software. Never has, never 
will. The only conditions it imposes are are *distribution*. And if you don't 
like it, write your own.

-p.
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From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Thu Oct  2 10:38:07 2008
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 10:38:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 10:10:22 -0500, "Dan Armbrust"
<daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com> said:
> The Apache license gives you (the user) much more freedom than
> anything GPL related, end of story.  The tradeoff, of course, is less
> control over the software by the developer.

It is true that licenses such as the Apache and BSD licenses do impose
less obligation on the developer.
As to whether they are more free, I would disagree because in the GPL
there is no restriction on how you can use the software and it ensures
that those restrictions aren't added in as the software gets
redistributed.


> One really could make the argument that his views are very similar to
> DRM, which I imagine most of us agree are bad.  You can use these 1's
> and 0's, but only if you do so in exactly the way that I tell you you
> can....

While I do see the similarity you state, copyleft and DRM have no
equivalency.
DRM's purpose is restricting the user's ability to use software.
Copyleft implies no such restriction.


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 11:30:26 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:30:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>

> One really could make the argument that his views are very similar to

> DRM, which I imagine most of us agree are bad. You can use these 1's

> and 0's, but only if you do so in exactly the way that I tell you you

> can....

Wrong. The GPL in no way restricts your use of the software. Never
has, never will. The only conditions it imposes are are
*distribution*. And if you don't like it, write your own.

-p.

And that's exactly why most programmers (employed by companies) don't
use GPL software in their software.  Its too restrictive.


> One really could make the argument that his views are very similar to
> DRM, which I imagine most of us agree are bad.  You can use these 1's
> and 0's, but only if you do so in exactly the way that I tell you you
> can....

While I do see the similarity you state, copyleft and DRM have no
equivalency.
DRM's purpose is restricting the user's ability to use software.
Copyleft implies no such restriction.


Well, distribution is kinda the point if you are working on other
opensource software.  In past jobs, I have written a lot of software
that was opensource.  Our goal was for everyone to be able to use our
software, individuals and companies.  The restrictions introduced by
GPL mean that we could not use any GPL software - because our software
was required to be more free than GPL allows.  Otherwise, there was no
point.  If companies couldn't use it, we were done.

Apache and Eclipse don't allow GPL licensed code contributions,
because its not free enough.  The restrictions are silly.  Why would
you want to cut your software off from 90% of your potential users?
Sure, there are arguments that they might release their own product
based on it... but, that doesn't seem to happen in practice.
Certainly doesn't seem to be hurting Apache and Eclipse, among
others....  In reality, you end up getting patches and bug fixes from
a much wider audience with a license that allows more folks that a few
PhD students to use your software because it doesn't impose a bunch of
pie-in-the-sky make-the-world-a-better-place restrictions.

In my current job, our non-opensource software is built on top of
Tomcat.  For this reason, I have found, documented and fixed bugs in
Tomcat and related software on company time, and released all of them
back into Tomcat.  If Tomcat were under GPL, we wouldn't be using
Tomcat.  Simple as that.


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct  2 11:52:14 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:52:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Errors and Omission Insurance Costs??
In-Reply-To: <48E43470.1080504@bitstream.net>
References: <48E43470.1080504@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <200810021152.14680.tclug@lizakowski.com>


$200 sounds reasonable, maybe even low.

The better question:  which agents in the cities offer E&O insurance?  Finding 
agents is suprisingly difficult, and getting a competitive quote means 
finding at least two.

On Wednesday 01 October 2008 9:39:44 pm PJ Crump wrote:
> I have a friend of mine that is an independent consultant in Detroit and
> he wanted me to ask around and see how much independents are paying for
> E&O (Errors and Omission Insurance).  He was quoted a price of $200
> bucks a quarter..  Does that sound reasonable??  Since I know he will
> ask, does anyone have any contacts for this type of insurance?
>
> -Thanks
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Thu Oct  2 13:08:02 2008
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 13:08:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1222970882.9396.1277202393@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 11:30:26 -0500, "Dan Armbrust"
<daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com> said:
> And that's exactly why most programmers (employed by companies) don't
> use GPL software in their software.  Its too restrictive.
> 
> In past jobs, I have written a lot of software
> that was opensource.  Our goal was for everyone to be able to use our
> software, individuals and companies.  The restrictions introduced by
> GPL mean that we could not use any GPL software - because our software
> was required to be more free than GPL allows.
> 
>The restrictions are silly.  Why would
> you want to cut your software off from 90% of your potential users?
> Sure, there are arguments that they might release their own product
> based on it... but, that doesn't seem to happen in practice.

There is nothing restrictive about GPL. Restriction implies that you're
being denied the exercise of an action. GPL doesn't deny you anything.
It imposes obligation. There's a difference between the two.
As for why one would subject themselves to these obligations, there are
many reasons developers do this. Many do it because they feel that the
only way to ensure computing freedom is for certain obligations to be
imposed on developers. In an ideal world, one would not have to impose
these obligations but we live in a world where proprietary software
marginalizes computing freedom and it is felt that the best way to
spread computing freedom is to have those who benefit from that freedom,
to have them also grant that freedom to others. The addage "freedom is
not free" applies.




From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Oct  2 14:05:01 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:05:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <1222970882.9396.1277202393@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org><200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com><82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com><1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com><82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222970882.9396.1277202393@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <078901c924c1$c603ddc0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Isaac Atilano
Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 1:08 PM
To: Dan Armbrust
Cc: p.daniels; tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October

> There is nothing restrictive about GPL. Restriction implies that you're
> being denied the exercise of an action. GPL doesn't deny you anything.
> It imposes obligation. There's a difference between the two.
> As for why one would subject themselves to these obligations, there are
> many reasons developers do this. Many do it because they feel that the
> only way to ensure computing freedom is for certain obligations to be
> imposed on developers. In an ideal world, one would not have to impose
> these obligations but we live in a world where proprietary software
> marginalizes computing freedom and it is felt that the best way to
> spread computing freedom is to have those who benefit from that freedom,
> to have them also grant that freedom to others. The addage "freedom is
> not free" applies.

The "GPL is not restrictive" debate is a common one. I don't disagree the
GPL has good value and intentions; I just don't think it is as free of
restrictions as some claim. 

IMO this is a pretty objective comparison of many common licenses and also
how they apply to OpenBSD specifically.
http://www.openbsd.org/policy.html

They both (GPL and BSD licenses) have their place and they are useful in
their own way. I think they both represent a form of free software but I
think the GPL is more forceful due to the restriction placed on one making
changes. It almost is like a paradox, GPL asserts more freedom overall by
sacrificing some of your individual freedom as you have to release your
changes. That is how I see it anyways though I have not pondered the subject
as much in recent years.




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 14:22:08 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:22:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted language. 
I know a little Perl, but not a lot, and just a little Ruby.  I've also 
used Octave/MATLAB and R/S fairly extensively, but those languages are 
more special-purpose than general-purpose.

I haven't really used other similar languages.  Now I want to learn one 
and get good at it.  What is the best choice?  I want my choice to be 
future-oriented. I can see why Perl is a good choice because of all the 
Perl code out there (especially in bioinformatics), but I'm wondering if I 
should learn Ruby instead of Perl.  Not sure -- how do the futures of Perl 
and Ruby look to you guys?  Or is there an even better choice than either 
of those two?

I will want to use the language to manipulate data files, but I also want 
to be able to do more with web application frameworks and 
model-view-controller systems.  So Ruby on Rails would be a possible 
direction, but I'm not sure if knowing Ruby actually helps with 
understanding Ruby on Rails.

All opinions are welcome!

Mike


From sloncho at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 14:24:12 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:24:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <078901c924c1$c603ddc0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222970882.9396.1277202393@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<078901c924c1$c603ddc0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810021224g5b4ddbe5m6c3636537ee88b3c@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
>
> The "GPL is not restrictive" debate is a common one. I don't disagree the
> GPL has good value and intentions; I just don't think it is as free of
> restrictions as some claim.
>

The whole debate starts with a simple "replacement" of the terms. We
are speaking about free (as in free speech) and not free (as free
beer).

And the freedom (free speech) has price, it's not free beer. And the
price is the restrictions, imposed by GPL.

If you care about the freedom, pay the price, respect the terms of
GPL, and allow everybody to has the same freedoms as you have.

If you want to get someone else's code for free (gratis, free beer) -
then GPL is not for you, use something else, or write your own code.

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From nate at refried.org  Thu Oct  2 14:35:37 2008
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:35:37 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>

On Oct  2 14:22, Mike Miller wrote:
> I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted language. 

I recommend Python.  The interactive shell it provides make it very easy
to try things out before you put them in a script.

Nate


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 14:45:08 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:45:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Nate Straz wrote:

> On Oct  2 14:22, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted 
>> language.
>
> I recommend Python.  The interactive shell it provides make it very easy 
> to try things out before you put them in a script.

OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have 
interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Oct  2 14:57:21 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:57:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081002195721.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 11:30:26AM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> In my current job, our non-opensource software is built on top of
> Tomcat.  For this reason, I have found, documented and fixed bugs in
> Tomcat and related software on company time, and released all of them
> back into Tomcat.  If Tomcat were under GPL, we wouldn't be using
> Tomcat.  Simple as that.

You most likely would, since you are insulated from the tomcat
implementation by the servlet/jsp/jsf/whatver interface specification.
It is the same idea with applications that run on the Linux kernel.
As long as they use the standard calls, no aggregation takes place and
you are not bound by the GPL.  Tomcat is a 'kernel' of sorts.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From jeremy.rosengren at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 14:57:39 2008
From: jeremy.rosengren at gmail.com (Jeremy Rosengren)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 14:57:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48E527B3.7020207@gmail.com>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Nate Straz wrote:
>
>   
>> On Oct  2 14:22, Mike Miller wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted 
>>> language.
>>>       
>> I recommend Python.  The interactive shell it provides make it very easy 
>> to try things out before you put them in a script.
>>     
>
> OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have 
> interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.
>
> Mike
>   
I'm sure there'll be lots of opinion within the list, but a lot of 
people have asked this same question (and tried to quantify it, as well):

http://tinyurl.com/427aw2

-- jeremy


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 15:07:19 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:07:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021500270.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Dan Armbrust wrote:

> There is a reason corporate America won't touch GPL when it comes to 
> writing other software.  Heck, even other major opensource organizations 
> like Apache and Eclipse won't touch GPL.
>
> The Apache license gives you (the user) much more freedom than anything 
> GPL related, end of story.  The tradeoff, of course, is less control 
> over the software by the developer.  But hey, its the developers choice. 
> I just hope that at some point, his views will restrict him into 
> obscurity, and more developers will switch to a license that does 
> provide more freedom to the users.


Why be vague, Dan?  The important difference is that some of the 
GPL-compatible open source licenses allow the code to be used in 
proprietary closed-source programs, but the GPL does not allow that.  Is 
that kind of freedom going to promote free software?  GPL code is 
self-perpetuating, and that is why, I think, you will not see Stallman's 
views "restrict him into obscurity."

Developers will choose BSD-style licenses if they want to encourage use of 
their code in proprietary programs.  A recent example of this is Google 
Chrome.  Google wants their ideas to be used in all browsers because then 
those browsers will work better with Google's online apps.  The license is 
meant to promote the online apps, not Google Chrome itself.  So for them 
it is a sensible idea.

If you want to encourage people to contribute to your project, and you 
want your project to survive and prosper, then GPL is a better choice 
because it doesn't encourage people to make proprietary programs to 
compete with yours, and it forces people who use your code to share their 
enhancements with you.  So GPL is a much better choice for many projects 
and that is why it is so widely used.

Mike


From drue at therub.org  Thu Oct  2 15:09:59 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:09:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 02:45:08PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have 
> interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.

Imho, you should learn a little bit of all three so you have a bit of
context for the differences.  That said, 

I wouldn't bother with perl unless there's a legacy codebase you are
interested in.  They haven't released a new major version in some 10
years, and I don't think very many people choose it for *new* projects.
It does still have a foothold in the sys admin's tool belt and is
ubiquitous in server environments, but as a language it's frequently
discounted now days for anything beyond glorified shell scripts.  Still
worth knowing at least superficially because you will run into it.

Ruby and python are somewhat similar in terms of popularity and
adoption.  Ruby's probably stronger on the web side (with rails).
Python can certainly do web things, but there's significant
fragmentation in terms of the availability of frameworks and development
environments.  

ymmv, 
drue

-- 
As implied by email protocols, the information in this message is not
not confidential.  Any middle-man or recipient may inspect, modify,
copy, forward, reply to, delete, or filter email for any purpose.  As
the sender, I acknowledge that I have less expectation of the control
and privacy of this message than I would a post-card.  As a result,
nothing in this message is legally binding without cryptographic proof
of its integrity, and no legal obligation can be implied on behalf of
the recipient.  http://bilbo.hobbiton.org/wiki/Eat_My_Sig


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 15:12:42 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:12:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021509300.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Dan Armbrust wrote:

> Apache and Eclipse don't allow GPL licensed code contributions, because 
> its not free enough.  The restrictions are silly.  Why would you want to 
> cut your software off from 90% of your potential users? Sure, there are 
> arguments that they might release their own product based on it... but, 
> that doesn't seem to happen in practice.

Yes it does.  We were just talking the other day about EnterpriseDB which 
is based on PostgreSQL.  EnterpriseDB is proprietary and the source code 
is not available.  PostgreSQL uses a BSD license, but if it had used a GPL 
license, EnterpriseDB would have to make source available, or not exist in 
the first place.

Mike


From nate at refried.org  Thu Oct  2 15:16:22 2008
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:16:22 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>

On Oct  2 14:45, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Nate Straz wrote:
> >On Oct  2 14:22, Mike Miller wrote:
> >
> >>I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted 
> >>language.
> >
> >I recommend Python.  The interactive shell it provides make it very easy 
> >to try things out before you put them in a script.
> 
> OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have 
> interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.

Python has a very large and active development community, including work
on the core language.  It has a very rich standard library and several
web frameworks to choose from.

I haven't done anything with Ruby, so I can't comment on that.

I have written some Perl code.  Enough that I'm not completely
frustrated with the language anymore.  There is always some set of magic
characters you need to put around a variable name in Perl to get it to
do what you want.  I think Python is better for the following reasons:
 1. The interactive shell makes it trivial to experiment.
 2. The standard library is just that, standard.  It'll always be there.
 3. OOP was built in, not bolted on
 4. There's a local Python Users Group (TCZPUG) ;)
 5. Python code tends to look cleaner than other code.

Nate


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Oct  2 15:22:30 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:22:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 11:30:26AM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> Well, distribution is kinda the point if you are working on other
> opensource software.  In past jobs, I have written a lot of software
> that was opensource.  Our goal was for everyone to be able to use our
> software, individuals and companies.  The restrictions introduced by
> GPL mean that we could not use any GPL software - because our software
> was required to be more free than GPL allows.  Otherwise, there was no
> point.  If companies couldn't use it, we were done.
> 
> Apache and Eclipse don't allow GPL licensed code contributions,
> because its not free enough.  The restrictions are silly.  Why would
> you want to cut your software off from 90% of your potential users?

Do you have any way to substantiate the 90% claim?

> Sure, there are arguments that they might release their own product
> based on it... but, that doesn't seem to happen in practice.
> Certainly doesn't seem to be hurting Apache and Eclipse, among
> others....  In reality, you end up getting patches and bug fixes from
> a much wider audience with a license that allows more folks that a few
> PhD students to use your software because it doesn't impose a bunch of
> pie-in-the-sky make-the-world-a-better-place restrictions.

Maybe because the times have changed.  In the 60s and 70s, the
software was "free", you were getting it with the big iron.  In the
80s and 90s, companies realized there is value that can be extracted
from the marked and started closing up the source.  In the late 90s
and 00s, companies realized the benefit of openness.  Remember when
Sun charged Kevin Mitnick with 'stealing' some hundreds of millions of
$ for peeking at the SunOS/Solaris code?  And then, a few years later
they open sourced it?  Java?  Remember how 'controlling' it was
important?  And now it is not?

Nothing _fundamentally_ changed during this time span.  Software is
_hard_ (like hunting down mammoths and lions) and cooperatively we
can make it better for all.  It is just the perceptions that are
swinging one way or another.

Cheers,

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 15:26:23 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:26:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <1222970882.9396.1277202393@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222970882.9396.1277202393@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021515260.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Isaac Atilano wrote:

> There is nothing restrictive about GPL. Restriction implies that you're 
> being denied the exercise of an action. GPL doesn't deny you anything. 
> It imposes obligation. There's a difference between the two.

I think that is a good point and an important distinction.  I'll have to 
remember to explain it that way to people.

The idea is that GPL allows you to do anything at all with the code, so it 
is unrestricted, totally free and no license can be freer than that.  The 
one obligation is that a developer has to share the source with anyone who 
has purchased a compiled program, but the cost of transmitting the code to 
the user is borne by the user unless it is done via the web (in which 
case it myst be free) -- see GPL3 sec. 6b, GPL2 sec 3b.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Oct  2 15:27:00 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:27:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291813250.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<069001c9241a$a6203cd0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<200810011848.10150.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
Message-ID: <20081002202700.GO3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 10:05:54PM -0500, Dan Rue wrote:
> It's simple.  You can not get more freedom by restricting access or
> choice.  You just can't.  Freedom means being free to make a choice that
> others consider wrong, dangerous, or foolish.

Are you talking about maximizing individual freedom, or the benefit to
the society?  Granting one person the freedom to punch people in the
nose might increase his individual freedom (and maybe his happiness),
but granting everybody the freedom to punch everybody in the nose
might not go down so well.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From florin at iucha.net  Thu Oct  2 15:32:50 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:32:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
Message-ID: <20081002203250.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 04:16:22PM -0400, Nate Straz wrote:
> > >>I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted 
> > >>language.
> > >
> > >I recommend Python.  The interactive shell it provides make it very easy 
> > >to try things out before you put them in a script.
> > 
> > OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have 
> > interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.
> 
> Python has a very large and active development community, including work
> on the core language.  It has a very rich standard library and several
> web frameworks to choose from.
> 
> I haven't done anything with Ruby, so I can't comment on that.
> 
> I have written some Perl code.  Enough that I'm not completely
> frustrated with the language anymore.  There is always some set of magic
> characters you need to put around a variable name in Perl to get it to
> do what you want.  I think Python is better for the following reasons:
>  1. The interactive shell makes it trivial to experiment.
>  2. The standard library is just that, standard.  It'll always be there.
>  3. OOP was built in, not bolted on
>  4. There's a local Python Users Group (TCZPUG) ;)
>  5. Python code tends to look cleaner than other code.

I second Nate's suggestion.  I have developed in both Perl and Python.
I feel Perl to be more 'natural' -- I seldom need to look things up in
Perl, but I can't live without Python's excellent online documentation
-- but I find that Python scales better as your program and team grow
larger.  I wrote a few 3 to 5 Kloc programs in Perl (mostly due to
external requirements), but in retrospect they would have been easier
to implement and maintain using Python.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 15:44:24 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 15:44:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021534040.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> Maybe because the times have changed.  In the 60s and 70s, the software 
> was "free", you were getting it with the big iron.  In the 80s and 90s, 
> companies realized there is value that can be extracted from the marked 
> and started closing up the source.  In the late 90s and 00s, companies 
> realized the benefit of openness.  Remember when Sun charged Kevin 
> Mitnick with 'stealing' some hundreds of millions of $ for peeking at 
> the SunOS/Solaris code?  And then, a few years later they open sourced 
> it?  Java?  Remember how 'controlling' it was important?  And now it is 
> not?
>
> Nothing _fundamentally_ changed during this time span.  Software is 
> _hard_ (like hunting down mammoths and lions) and cooperatively we can 
> make it better for all.  It is just the perceptions that are swinging 
> one way or another.


I think, over time, several things have been changing that gradually alter 
the payoffs for different kinds of development work and distribution 
strategies.  For one, the web didn't used to be there, but now it is 
there, and that drops distribution prices to almost zero.  You used to 
have to package and ship stuff and you needed workers to handle orders, 
etc., but that is over.

With that, the competitive landscape has changed a lot.  All the big iron 
sellers had their own UNIX OSs that they distributed with their machines. 
The money was more in the machine than in the OS but the OS helped to 
create vendor lock-in.  With the advent of a fairly stable Linux OS, and 
many young workers having experience with it, many buyers wanted to run 
Linux on their hardware.  So *all* of the major sellers started to offer 
Linux as an alternative to their proprietary OS -- IBM (AIX), HP (HPUX), 
Sun (Solaris), HP/Compaq/DEC (Tru64), etc.

Now that massive amounts of GPL'd code is available, a developer can 
decide to use it and get something working very quickly, or he can use 
BSD-licensed code, if there is enough, or develop from scratch.  It is 
often way quicker and easier to use pre-existing GPL'd code.  In the final 
analysis, a developer today who uses GPL might end up making more dollars 
per hour for his development work by using GPL software than by making a 
proprietary program.  It depends on a lot of factors, including the 
potential for competition from free software projects.

Anyway, just some of my ideas and observations.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 16:22:10 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:22:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <48E527B3.7020207@gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E527B3.7020207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021619510.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Jeremy Rosengren wrote:

> I'm sure there'll be lots of opinion within the list, but a lot of 
> people have asked this same question (and tried to quantify it, as 
> well):
>
> http://tinyurl.com/427aw2


That's a good point!  I have people on a couple of other lists sending me 
advice too.  So far the tendency seems pretty strongly toward Python and 
Django, especially for scientific computing (my main area for computer 
applications).

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 16:36:45 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:36:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <20081002203250.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
	<20081002203250.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021627360.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 04:16:22PM -0400, Nate Straz wrote:
>
>> I think Python is better for the following reasons:
>>  1. The interactive shell makes it trivial to experiment.
>>  2. The standard library is just that, standard.  It'll always be there.
>>  3. OOP was built in, not bolted on
>>  4. There's a local Python Users Group (TCZPUG) ;)
>>  5. Python code tends to look cleaner than other code.
>
> I second Nate's suggestion.  I have developed in both Perl and Python. I 
> feel Perl to be more 'natural' -- I seldom need to look things up in 
> Perl, but I can't live without Python's excellent online documentation 
> -- but I find that Python scales better as your program and team grow 
> larger.  I wrote a few 3 to 5 Kloc programs in Perl (mostly due to 
> external requirements), but in retrospect they would have been easier to 
> implement and maintain using Python.


Yep.  That all makes a lot of sense for the Perl v. Python comparison and 
after reading this and what I've been getting elsewhere -- all of which 
fits together and makes sense -- I would definitely prefer to expend more 
effort learning Python than learning Perl.

Anyone know about regular expressions in Python?  I am used to Perl 
regular expressions (I don't know a lot more Perl than that!), and 
everyone knows they are good...

http://xkcd.com/208/

...but I guess I need a "re" module for Python to get all the Perly 
goodness:

http://www.amk.ca/python/howto/regex/

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 16:40:13 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:40:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021638020.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Dan Rue wrote:

> Ruby and python are somewhat similar in terms of popularity and 
> adoption.  Ruby's probably stronger on the web side (with rails). Python 
> can certainly do web things, but there's significant fragmentation in 
> terms of the availability of frameworks and development environments.


Is anyone here using Django?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_(web_framework)
http://www.djangoproject.com/

Their tagline -- "The web framework for perfectionists with deadlines" -- 
is awesome.  It's like they know me!

Mike


From andyzib at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 16:44:35 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:44:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021619510.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E527B3.7020207@gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021619510.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810021444n632343ebs4ff8ad271a367e89@mail.gmail.com>

PHP is also able to do quite a lot as an interpreted language. It's
not as robust as Perl or Python, but I've been happy with the results
where I've used it for non-web applications. The crazy amount of built
in functions in PHP and the online documentation are very handy.

Unless you're already using PHP though, Python, Ruby, or Perl (in that
order) are probably better bets.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From wilson at visi.com  Thu Oct  2 16:45:17 2008
From: wilson at visi.com (Tim Wilson)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:45:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021619510.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E527B3.7020207@gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021619510.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <8CC1106F-8E1A-4D47-9826-EF7D149151F6@visi.com>

On Oct 2, 2008, at 4:22 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> That's a good point!  I have people on a couple of other lists  
> sending me
> advice too.  So far the tendency seems pretty strongly toward Python  
> and
> Django, especially for scientific computing (my main area for computer
> applications).


Mike,

If you're doing scientific computing with Python you might be  
interested in SciPy:

http://www.scipy.org/

I'll add my vote for Python too. It's an excellent language for a wide  
variety of applications.

-Tim

-- 
Tim Wilson, The Savvy Technologist
Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA
Educational technology guy, Linux and OS X fan, Grad. student, Daddy
mailto: wilson at visi.com  aim: tis270  blog and podcast: http://technosavvy.org




From andyschmid at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 16:59:04 2008
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:59:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux backup software
Message-ID: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

I'm looking for some advice on backing up data on a Linux workstation.  I
currently have a 1.5TB hard drive, and multiple smaller drives (80GB-500GB
in size).  I would like to use these smaller hard drives as backup media for
the 1.5TB drive. I also can only connect one of the smaller drives at a
time, so some sort of media catalog will probably be needed.

I have looked around a bit, but most software suites seem way too large and
complex for what I need (e.x. Amanda).  Does anyone know of a simpler
solution to use for routine backups?

Thanks,
Andy
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From bradyh at bitstream.net  Thu Oct  2 14:54:03 2008
From: bradyh at bitstream.net (Brady Hegberg)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 14:54:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <9B8E8953-2143-46DD-94D2-68919B49ED9E@bitstream.net>

Personally, I enjoy programming in both Ruby and Perl.  I'm always  
amazed at how my Ruby programs seem to magically just work while Perl  
does *something* cool...but not always what I expected.

I've used Perl on my job on occasion. I once wrote a message-oriented  
middleware system in Perl.  But Ruby seems to be the future. I haven't  
used RoR extensively but I'd like to. I think Ruby and RoR would be  
best on your resume.

Currently, part of my job involves using Groovy to do some mainframe  
screen-scraping and text manipulation. Groovy is fun because it's like  
Java (my usual language these days) but with all this crazy hotrod  
stuff tacked on. However, it takes me a lot of debugging to get things  
working - even worse than Perl.

Hope some of this helped.

-Brady

On Oct 2, 2008, at 2:22 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>  
wrote:

> I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted  
> language.
> I know a little Perl, but not a lot, and just a little Ruby.  I've  
> also
> used Octave/MATLAB and R/S fairly extensively, but those languages are
> more special-purpose than general-purpose.
>
> I haven't really used other similar languages.  Now I want to learn  
> one
> and get good at it.  What is the best choice?  I want my choice to be
> future-oriented. I can see why Perl is a good choice because of all  
> the
> Perl code out there (especially in bioinformatics), but I'm  
> wondering if I
> should learn Ruby instead of Perl.  Not sure -- how do the futures  
> of Perl
> and Ruby look to you guys?  Or is there an even better choice than  
> either
> of those two?
>
> I will want to use the language to manipulate data files, but I also  
> want
> to be able to do more with web application frameworks and
> model-view-controller systems.  So Ruby on Rails would be a possible
> direction, but I'm not sure if knowing Ruby actually helps with
> understanding Ruby on Rails.
>
> All opinions are welcome!
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From nate at refried.org  Thu Oct  2 17:22:08 2008
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:22:08 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021638020.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021638020.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002222208.GA27168@refried.org>

On Oct  2 16:40, Mike Miller wrote:
> Is anyone here using Django?

Yes, I use it for my blog.  But I'm just a hobbist when it comes to web
development and I haven't spent a lot of time on it lately.

Nate


From nate at refried.org  Thu Oct  2 17:26:39 2008
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 18:26:39 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021627360.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
	<20081002203250.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021627360.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081002222638.GB27168@refried.org>

On Oct  2 16:36, Mike Miller wrote:
> Anyone know about regular expressions in Python?

It's all in the re module, which is part of the standard library.  It's
not as natural to use as Perl, but it's just as powerful.

Figuring out the right regular expression is one of those things that
makes me appreciate the interactive shell.  Throw some test data in a
variable and keep modifying the regex until it matches the way you want
it.  Then just copy and paste the working regex into your script for
production use.

Nate


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 17:45:45 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:45:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Django v RoR
In-Reply-To: <20081002222208.GA27168@refried.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021638020.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002222208.GA27168@refried.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021744070.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

Joel Jensen, web developer, wrote the stuff below for the Ruby.MN list 
(Ruby on Rails list) about his experience with Django after much RoR use.

Mike

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:47:35 -0500
From: Joel Jensen
To: ruby.mn at ruby.mn
Subject: Re: Why Django? [was Re: [ruby.mn] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language]

I'm building a Django news site right now. Have been, on an off for a 
while. I've built 10 commercial rails sites, over the last 3 years and 
here are the differences as far as I can see.


The main advantages Django offers are,
Its template structure (huge sell for some type of sites)
Its automatic admin interface
Its stability
Its user management
Its modularity

Its template structure:

Basicly, a django site defines a base template, then any section can 
override parts of the base template with their own content. It's like 
partials, but in reverse you don't include the partial in your page ( you 
can if you want) you include the the page around your partial. A child 
page inherits and overrides sections in the parent or base template. The 
result is that for news sites, you can swap out the sidebar or ad section 
or whatever part of a page, without rewriting the base template.

Its automatic admin interface:

This is what drew me initially, you make the model, it makes the admin 
interface, and it's usable out of the box. I use AjaxScaffold for some 
admin interfaces in rails, but before that came around, It was pretty much 
code it all from scratch. With django, you can make an admin interface to 
gather content before the content display pages are ready, great for news 
sites with tight deadlines. If you need to add another section, or 
feature. Make the model, generate the admin section, hand that off to the 
content creators. THen you can focus on the site, and even get REAL 
content. No more Lorem Ipsum.

Its stability

django runs with mod_python under apache which is very stable and battle 
tested, it supports caching with squid etc... It's about 50% faster than 
rails in generating pages. Many large sites use it currently and have 
little or no difficulty with high load ( slashdoting ...)

Its user management

User management is baked in with django. Users are granted access to the 
admin section, by user and by section they are trying to get into.  In a 
news site this is good to keep the ad guys out of the news section...

Its modularity

Django apps are python modules. The templates inherit from the base.  If 
you find a module you like, voting, polls whatever, just add it to the 
root, change the regexp for url rewriting and you are good.


The bad:

The template language doesn't allow code in the template. no <%= 
Articles.find(:first).body %> stuff. You must use the djano templating 
language or extend the template to handle your special case. This can be 
annoying.

Test cases arent baked in, as in rails.

No incremental data changes like migrations, I like this but I shouldn't

Ajax more difficult, This is a mixed annoyance. It forces the developer to 
code the Ajax, not that hard with JQuery or Prototype, but it still 
requires the developer to do the code. I'm not sold on the whole "if the 
developer writes the javascript they know what it's doing better" 
arguement. Typically a person who writes a decent rails app, knows what 
they are doing, and wants it done fast.

All said, Django is better suited for news / CMS type sites. whereas Rails 
for application type sites.


Joel Jensen


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Oct  2 17:52:56 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 17:52:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RMS Fun
Message-ID: <081c01c924e1$9cdcb000$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>

Ok, you gotta admit this is cute.

 

http://xkcd.com/225/

 

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From blueninja83 at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  2 18:16:32 2008
From: blueninja83 at yahoo.com (David T. Harris)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:16:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] groovy - WAS choosing a general-purpose
	interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <9B8E8953-2143-46DD-94D2-68919B49ED9E@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <777639.21960.qm@web36502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>




--- On Thu, 10/2/08, Brady Hegberg <bradyh at bitstream.net> wrote:
> 
> Currently, part of my job involves using Groovy to do some
> mainframe  
> screen-scraping and text manipulation. Groovy is fun
> because it's like  
> Java (my usual language these days) but with all this crazy
> hotrod  
> stuff tacked on. However, it takes me a lot of debugging to
> get things  
> working - even worse than Perl.
> 
Just out of curiosity how is groovy hard to debug?  I'm guessing ruby is easier to debug?  What tools do you generally use at debugging a groovy and/or ruby app? 

I'm asking because I'm doing an independent study on the various web development frameworks and it sees like RoR is very similar to grails (which uses groovy).  Do you have any experience with grails?  Any information you can lend as far as the pro's/con's of grails/groovy would be great.

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide on this.




      


From strayf at freeshell.org  Thu Oct  2 18:21:31 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 18:21:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
Message-ID: <48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>

Dan Rue wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 02:45:08PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>> OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have 
>> interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.
> 
> Imho, you should learn a little bit of all three so you have a bit of
> context for the differences.  That said, 
> 
> I wouldn't bother with perl unless there's a legacy codebase you are
> interested in.  They haven't released a new major version in some 10
> years, and I don't think very many people choose it for *new* projects.
> It does still have a foothold in the sys admin's tool belt and is
> ubiquitous in server environments, but as a language it's frequently
> discounted now days for anything beyond glorified shell scripts.  Still
> worth knowing at least superficially because you will run into it.
> 

I agree with your first paragraph, but the second one is completely bogus. 
Perl 5.10 just came out last December and both Perl 5 and Perl 6 are under 
continuing development. Perl's heavily used in a lot of large organizations 
and CPAN is huge and still growing.

I think programmers are unduly affected by ideas of what's in fashion. It's 
like we're worried that someone's going to say "oh, you still write in x? 
How quaint."

I like Perl. It's powerful; it offers a lot of flexibility; it's written by 
a group of very creative developers; and I actually find it quite readable 
(except for the intentionally obfuscated programs). I'd recommend the Perl 
Best Practices book, though, if you're going to write something large.

I'm sure Ruby and Python are also very good. I don't have enough experience 
to comment on them though.

-Steve



From sutrannu at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 19:01:58 2008
From: sutrannu at gmail.com (Ben Betts)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:01:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux backup software
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8a6084050810021701v45339a5fpb05f4b514f8f64f1@mail.gmail.com>

The simplest solution is rsync. The possibilities are endless, of
course. you have to know how to utilize it for your needs, though.

Most importantly, because you have removable drives, I find it useful
to keep the script for the backup on the drive itself. This will let
you use relative paths for the target directory. Why? If you're
running a distro that may be prone to changing the way it handles
auto-mounting, your script won't break.

If you run this command from the drive:

rsync -azP --log-file=backup.log --exclude-from=./exclude.lst
--max-size=100M ~/* ./back-`date "+%Y-%m-%dT%H-%M-%S"`

you'll get a directory in the current directory called back- + the
date with everything in your home directory that's NOT in the
exclude.lst file and that's smaller than 100MB. The backup will be
stored in a directory called back- + the date.

it only gets better from there

http://blog.interlinked.org/tutorials/rsync_time_machine.html

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Andy Schmid <andyschmid at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I'm looking for some advice on backing up data on a Linux workstation.  I currently have a 1.5TB hard drive, and multiple smaller drives (80GB-500GB in size).  I would like to use these smaller hard drives as backup media for the 1.5TB drive. I also can only connect one of the smaller drives at a time, so some sort of media catalog will probably be needed.
>
> I have looked around a bit, but most software suites seem way too large and complex for what I need (e.x. Amanda).  Does anyone know of a simpler solution to use for routine backups?
>
> Thanks,
> Andy
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Thu Oct  2 19:07:50 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:07:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <58896E4B-0683-48EF-AB85-CCD65636A24F@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 2, 2008, at 6:21 PM, Steve Cayford wrote:

> Dan Rue wrote:
>> On Thu, Oct 02, 2008 at 02:45:08PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>>> OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have
>>> interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.
>>
>> Imho, you should learn a little bit of all three so you have a bit of
>> context for the differences.  That said,
>>
>> I wouldn't bother with perl unless there's a legacy codebase you are
>> interested in.  They haven't released a new major version in some 10
>> years, and I don't think very many people choose it for *new*  
>> projects.
>> It does still have a foothold in the sys admin's tool belt and is
>> ubiquitous in server environments, but as a language it's frequently
>> discounted now days for anything beyond glorified shell scripts.   
>> Still
>> worth knowing at least superficially because you will run into it.
>>
>
> I agree with your first paragraph, but the second one is completely  
> bogus.
> Perl 5.10 just came out last December and both Perl 5 and Perl 6 are  
> under
> continuing development. Perl's heavily used in a lot of large  
> organizations
> and CPAN is huge and still growing.

I have to agree with Steve's disagreement.  The one solid example I  
have is a local company, Digital River, whom I *know* uses Perl on  
most of their new stuff.  But, I'm by no means an expert in this area.

---
Eric Crist






From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 19:21:32 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:21:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org> <48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:

> Dan Rue wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't bother with perl unless there's a legacy codebase you are
>> interested in.  They haven't released a new major version in some 10
>> years, and I don't think very many people choose it for *new* projects.
>> It does still have a foothold in the sys admin's tool belt and is
>> ubiquitous in server environments, but as a language it's frequently
>> discounted now days for anything beyond glorified shell scripts.  Still
>> worth knowing at least superficially because you will run into it.
>>
>
> Perl 5.10 just came out last December and both Perl 5 and Perl 6 are 
> under continuing development. Perl's heavily used in a lot of large 
> organizations and CPAN is huge and still growing.

But he said "major version," and I doubt 5.10 counts as major.  He isn't 
the only person telling me this.


> I'm sure Ruby and Python are also very good. I don't have enough 
> experience to comment on them though.

That is a typical kind of reaction -- people who have used a certain 
package for a long time and have become dependent on it tend to promote 
it.  That's OK because they know what they are talking about and can tell 
you all the good features.  The problem is when you want to compare two 
things, you'll get people on opposite sides who know all the great things 
about only one of the programs and nothing about the other programs. 
This is the cause of disputes like the Emacs vs vi wars.

Mike


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Thu Oct  2 19:32:16 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:32:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <F0460FAC-2AB9-42E9-9C23-B60251B2069C@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 2, 2008, at 7:21 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> ...
> This is the cause of disputes like the Emacs vs vi wars.

As soon as Emacs lusers realize vi/m is better...

---
Eric Crist






From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Thu Oct  2 19:44:06 2008
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:44:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux backup software
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081002194406.542a1410@joplin.trutwins.homeip.net>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008 16:59:04 -0500
"Andy Schmid" <andyschmid at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have looked around a bit, but most software suites seem way too
> large and complex for what I need (e.x. Amanda).  Does anyone know
> of a simpler solution to use for routine backups?

I personally like Snapback2, which basically uses rsync but uses hard
links to make nice hourly, daily, weekly (etc) backup dirs but the
hard links help save you from eating disc unnecessarily.  

http://www.perusion.com/misc/Snapback2/

It's not under heavy development, but it just works and has a pretty
easy configuration.

This is also a good read:

http://www.mikerubel.org/computers/rsync_snapshots/

Josh


From strayf at freeshell.org  Thu Oct  2 20:22:08 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 20:22:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48E573C0.60806@freeshell.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:
> 
>> Dan Rue wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't bother with perl unless there's a legacy codebase you are
>>> interested in.  They haven't released a new major version in some 10
>>> years, and I don't think very many people choose it for *new* projects.
>>> It does still have a foothold in the sys admin's tool belt and is
>>> ubiquitous in server environments, but as a language it's frequently
>>> discounted now days for anything beyond glorified shell scripts.  Still
>>> worth knowing at least superficially because you will run into it.
>>>
>> Perl 5.10 just came out last December and both Perl 5 and Perl 6 are 
>> under continuing development. Perl's heavily used in a lot of large 
>> organizations and CPAN is huge and still growing.
> 
> But he said "major version," and I doubt 5.10 counts as major.  He isn't 
> the only person telling me this.

The Perl developers call it a major version, I'd say that counts.

The difference between Perl 5 and Perl 6 is more than a version change
which is why 6 has taken so long.

> 
>> I'm sure Ruby and Python are also very good. I don't have enough 
>> experience to comment on them though.
> 
> That is a typical kind of reaction ...

Hm. My point was not to compare them. My point was that Perl is a great
language and should not be dismissed as only good for "glorified shell
scripts". I don't know if that's a "typical" reaction, but it's an
appropriate one.

-Steve


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 21:27:22 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:27:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <48E573C0.60806@freeshell.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org> <48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E573C0.60806@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810022100020.26404@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:
>>
>>> Dan Rue wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wouldn't bother with perl unless there's a legacy codebase you are 
>>>> interested in.  They haven't released a new major version in some 10 
>>>> years, and I don't think very many people choose it for *new* 
>>>> projects. It does still have a foothold in the sys admin's tool belt 
>>>> and is ubiquitous in server environments, but as a language it's 
>>>> frequently discounted now days for anything beyond glorified shell 
>>>> scripts.  Still worth knowing at least superficially because you will 
>>>> run into it.
>>>>
>>> Perl 5.10 just came out last December and both Perl 5 and Perl 6 are 
>>> under continuing development. Perl's heavily used in a lot of large 
>>> organizations and CPAN is huge and still growing.
>>
>> But he said "major version," and I doubt 5.10 counts as major.  He 
>> isn't the only person telling me this.
>
> The Perl developers call it a major version, I'd say that counts.
>
> The difference between Perl 5 and Perl 6 is more than a version change 
> which is why 6 has taken so long.

They actually called Perl 5.10 a "major release" here...

http://dev.perl.org/perl5/

...and a "major upgrade" here:

http://dev.perl.org/perl5/news/2007/perl-5.10.0.html

    Perl 5.10, the first major upgrade to the wildly popular dynamic
    programming language in over five years

...but they have used the term "mjor release" inconsistently:

http://perldoc.perl.org/perlfaq1.html#What-are-Perl-4%2c-Perl-5%2c-or-Perl-6%3f

    The current major release of Perl is Perl 5, and was released in 1994.

For me, it does look like they are spinning their wheels.  I remember 
hearing about Perl 6 before I moved here 7 years ago.  Apparently they 
started the design process 8 years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6#History

But they still have no timeline:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perl_6

    Perl 6 has been under development for over eight years. The Perl 6
    project has never had a clear timeline, although various contributors
    have given estimates over the years. In early 2007 Jesse Vincent, the
    Perl 6 Project Manager said, "The Perl 6 project has no schedule ...
    one doesn't want to rush a largely volunteer effort to design and
    implement a worthy successor to Perl 5."[1]

1. http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.perl5.porters/2007/02/msg120613.html


> Hm. My point was not to compare them. My point was that Perl is a great 
> language and should not be dismissed as only good for "glorified shell 
> scripts". I don't know if that's a "typical" reaction, but it's an 
> appropriate one.

I agree with that, but the original topic was comparison.  All I'm saying 
is that when someone writes to a group of people asking for comparisons, 
they end up with people defending what they know.  That's not bad though 
because those defenders are almost always acccurate and knowledgable, as 
you are.

Mike


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Thu Oct  2 21:54:17 2008
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 21:54:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org> <48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 7:21 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Steve Cayford wrote:
>> Dan Rue wrote:
>>
>>> I wouldn't bother with perl unless there's a legacy codebase you are
>>> interested in.  They haven't released a new major version in some 10
>>> years, and I don't think very many people choose it for *new* projects.
>>> It does still have a foothold in the sys admin's tool belt and is
>>> ubiquitous in server environments, but as a language it's frequently
>>> discounted now days for anything beyond glorified shell scripts.  Still
>>> worth knowing at least superficially because you will run into it.
>>
>> Perl 5.10 just came out last December and both Perl 5 and Perl 6 are
>> under continuing development. Perl's heavily used in a lot of large
>> organizations and CPAN is huge and still growing.
>
> But he said "major version," and I doubt 5.10 counts as major.  He isn't
> the only person telling me this.

By this same logic, the 2.2, 2.4, and 2.6 versions of the linux kernel
all have the same "major version".  Technically so, but that doesn't
do justice to the changes under the hood.

Having gotten that off my chest, I'd also suggest Python.  It's a neat
language.  Perl is great too (I'm one of the organizers for the
upcoming Frozen Perl 2009 workshop) but I'm currently having a lot of
fun with Python.

Using PHP as a general-purpose scripting language is something that
people do when they don't have any better tools in their kit.  That's
fine if that's where you are, and you need to Get Things Done Right
Now, but honestly, PHP has all of the drawbacks of Perl (and then
some) and few of the benefits.

JT


From chewie at wookimus.net  Thu Oct  2 23:27:46 2008
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2008 23:27:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <48DDC103.4050100@freeshell.org> 
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48DDC103.4050100@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <2778.1223008066@skuld.wookimus.net>

You know.  I don't get the complaints about parking at the U of M.  It's
not really all that difficult to find cheap parking, especially if you
park out at the "cheap" lots and take the shuttle.  I worked at the U
for years and never had a problem finding a place to park.  Not to
mention that the U is a prominant stop for public transit, how could you
NOT think of it as a great place to meet?!  Oh well.  To each his/her
own.

Chad


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  2 23:27:52 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 23:27:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] quotations about computer languages
In-Reply-To: <20081001232312.GH3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809301951210.114@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810010119300.88@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001143241.GA3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011615290.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001222135.GG3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011731440.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081001232312.GH3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810022253350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> Bjarne Stroustrup said "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones 
> people complain about and the ones nobody uses", and the same can be 
> said about software in general.

That's a great quote.  Maybe if Winston Churchill had been a programmer, 
he would have said, "It has been said that this is the worst programming 
language, except all the others that have been tried."

Mike


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Thu Oct  2 23:44:55 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:44:55 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>


> ... when they don't have any better tools ...
> ... and you need to Get Things Done Right Now ...

Depends what you want to get done.  CPAN was mentioned a couple of times
- I'd like to reemphasize that.  Why do you need the lastest cool
language if what you want to do has already been done (and is even
freely available on CPAN).  If not exactly, you may find something close
and customize from there.  Perl is great because you always have source
and, thanks to its just-in-time complier, runs loops as fast as
non-interpreted languages.

Slashdot is another solid example.  They note perl's speed 
http://www.slashcode.com/faq.shtml#SlashCode1 
and they've licensed their code under Stallman's GPL
http://www.slashcode.com/docs/COPYING 



From jack at jacku.com  Fri Oct  3 00:02:38 2008
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:02:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
Message-ID: <200810030002.39482.jack@jacku.com>

On Thursday 02 October 2008, Nate Straz wrote:
> On Oct  2 14:45, Mike Miller wrote:
> > On Thu, 2 Oct 2008, Nate Straz wrote:
> > >On Oct  2 14:22, Mike Miller wrote:
> > >>I want to spend some time learning a general-purpose interpreted
> > >>language.
> > >
> > >I recommend Python.  The interactive shell it provides make it very easy
> > >to try things out before you put them in a script.
> >
> > OK, but how does Python compare with Perl and Ruby?  They don't have
> > interactive shells?  Are there other major differences.
>
> Python has a very large and active development community, including work
> on the core language.  It has a very rich standard library and several
> web frameworks to choose from.
>
> I haven't done anything with Ruby, so I can't comment on that.
>
> I have written some Perl code.  Enough that I'm not completely
> frustrated with the language anymore.  There is always some set of magic
> characters you need to put around a variable name in Perl to get it to
> do what you want.  I think Python is better for the following reasons:
>  1. The interactive shell makes it trivial to experiment.
>  2. The standard library is just that, standard.  It'll always be there.
>  3. OOP was built in, not bolted on
>  4. There's a local Python Users Group (TCZPUG) ;)
>  5. Python code tends to look cleaner than other code.
>
> Nate
>

As coordinator of the local Zope/Python users group you know where I'll come 
down. I did some perl program many years ago, before I discovered python. I 
do some PHP programming now because I inherited some systems that use it. 
Otherwise I do almost everything in Python.  I've not tried Ruby because I 
don't have any burning desire to do so. The only thing I haven't been able to 
do with python is get the curl module to work with a particular online 
system. Fortunately it works with the PHP implementation of curl so I use 
that for the last bit of processing. 

FWIW Python has been my language of choice for more then ten years and Zope 
has been my web platform of choice for almost 9. So I have the bias that 
comes with comfort and familiarity. 

Jack



-- 
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct  3 00:31:40 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:31:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 3 Oct 2008, Smith, Craig A wrote:

> Perl is great because you always have source and, thanks to its 
> just-in-time complier, runs loops as fast as non-interpreted languages.

How does this compare with what Perl is doing:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyco


> Slashdot is another solid example.  They note perl's speed
> http://www.slashcode.com/faq.shtml#SlashCode1
> and they've licensed their code under Stallman's GPL
> http://www.slashcode.com/docs/COPYING

One problem with learning Python is that I will be less able to make use 
of all the nice Perl code out there.  But focusing on Perl means I'll be 
less able to use all the nice Python code out there.

It is definitely a tricky decision.

Mike


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 00:34:11 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 00:34:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <2778.1223008066@skuld.wookimus.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48DDC103.4050100@freeshell.org>
	<2778.1223008066@skuld.wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <200810030034.12229.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Thursday October 2 2008 23:27:46 Chad Walstrom wrote:
> You know.  I don't get the complaints about parking at the U of M.  It's
> not really all that difficult to find cheap parking, especially if you
> park out at the "cheap" lots and take the shuttle.  I worked at the U
> for years and never had a problem finding a place to park.  Not to
> mention that the U is a prominant stop for public transit, how could you
> NOT think of it as a great place to meet?!  Oh well.  To each his/her
> own.
>
> Chad

Re: Public transit, maybe so, but that that doesn't make it convenient for 
everyone. For instance, I live in south, under four miles from the west bank, 
and unless it's rush and I can catch a freeway flier, it takes me 40+ minutes 
depending on the time of day. And I live on two main lines. For comparison, I 
can do it on my bike in 20. YMMV (pun intended).

On a more general note, I just find the U to be a massive pain to get around in 
once I'm there.

-p.
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From josh at tcbug.org  Fri Oct  3 08:31:46 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 08:31:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48E61EC2.8030202@tcbug.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Oct 2008, Smith, Craig A wrote:
> 
>> Perl is great because you always have source and, thanks to its 
>> just-in-time complier, runs loops as fast as non-interpreted languages.
> 
> How does this compare with what Perl is doing:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyco
> 
> 
>> Slashdot is another solid example.  They note perl's speed
>> http://www.slashcode.com/faq.shtml#SlashCode1
>> and they've licensed their code under Stallman's GPL
>> http://www.slashcode.com/docs/COPYING
> 
> One problem with learning Python is that I will be less able to make use 
> of all the nice Perl code out there.  But focusing on Perl means I'll be 
> less able to use all the nice Python code out there.
> 
> It is definitely a tricky decision.
> 
> Mike

I remember Perl when it was really nothing more than an easier to use
sed and awk.  Then I remember when we had teams of guys who did nothing
but audit perl cgi people wanted to run on our webservers.  Fast forward
to today, really the only people using it are the people who already
know it.  It's gone from nearly the only game in town in certain arenas
(like dynamic content in web pages) to virtually unused in terms of new
development in that arena.

Re: whether perl 5.10 is a major release or not, see the changelog.

http://perldoc.perl.org/perldelta.html

Perl is probably the fastest interpreted language you will run in to out
there, on average it's about 10% faster than python, and significantly
faster than ruby.  You can certainly come up with code snippets that are
much faster or slower though.  In particular perl has a pretty fast
regex engine, so if you make heavy use of regexes it's attractive.

My personal experiences with perl are that large programs are hard to
debug and maintain, and it's speed advantages aren't worth dealing with
thre maintainance and debugging problems.  If python is too slow for a
task, perl isn't going to be enough of an improvement to matter most of
the time.

Case in point, I once tried to generate a report that determined the
highest number of hits by IP in any given ten minute period from 18
months of ten million hit per day weblogs with python.  It ran for a
weekend and wasn't even close to finishing on a dual xeon.  The C
program took me far longer to write, but it ran to completion in 4
hours.  I doubt rewriting in perl would've made it run acceptably fast.

My advice to people is, if you've gone through the work of learning
perl, all of it's operators, all of it's special cases and exceptions
(and there's a lot of those) all of it's commonly used paradigms, then
there's no compelling reason to change.  If you are wanting to learn
something today, python and ruby are attractive choices.

For what it's worth, I know sed and awk backwards and forwards and don't
recommend people learn those either.  There's no reason to forget I know
them, but for new tasks....there are better choices.

My favorite quote from Programming Perl possibly slightly misquoted:

"Perl has a rich set of operators that generally do what you expect,
unless you are expecting consistancy."

- --
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

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From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Fri Oct  3 10:01:27 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:01:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted	language
In-Reply-To: <48E61EC2.8030202@tcbug.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E61EC2.8030202@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <48E5ED77.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> On 10/3/2008 at 8:31 AM, in message <48E61EC2.8030202 at tcbug.org>, Josh Paetzel
<josh at tcbug.org> wrote:
> My advice to people is, if you've gone through the work of learning
> perl, all of it's operators, all of it's special cases and exceptions
> (and there's a lot of those) all of it's commonly used paradigms, then
> there's no compelling reason to change.  If you are wanting to learn
> something today, python and ruby are attractive choices.

What about them make them more attractive choices than Perl?

Because Python and Ruby have fewer operators, special cases, 
exceptions, and common paradigms?





From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Fri Oct  3 10:14:41 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 10:14:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted	language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>
	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48E5F090.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> On 10/3/2008 at 12:31 AM, in message
<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955 at taxa.epi.umn.edu>, Mike Miller
<mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Oct 2008, Smith, Craig A wrote:
> 
>> Perl is great because you always have source and, thanks to its 
>> just-in-time complier, runs loops as fast as non-interpreted languages.
> 
> How does this compare with what Perl is doing:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psyco 

I think if you look for "Perl to C compilers" you will get a number of interesting hits.
It's been a topic of conversation for years.

This seems to be what Perl is "doing":

http://www.parrot.org/

"Parrot is a virtual machine designed to efficiently compile and execute bytecode for dynamic languages. Parrot currently hosts a variety of language implementations in various stages of completion, including Tcl, Javascript, Ruby, Lua, Scheme, PHP, Python, Perl 6, APL, and a .NET bytecode translator."

If you want to know something about Perl current events from someone 
other than current Python and Ruby developers, you can go here:

http://rakudo.org/







From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 10:54:24 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 10:54:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002195721.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002195721.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>

>> If Tomcat were under GPL, we wouldn't be using
>> Tomcat.  Simple as that.
>
> You most likely would, since you are insulated from the tomcat
> implementation by the servlet/jsp/jsf/whatver interface specification.

Corporate lawyers don't want to even here the word GPL, much less
debate what makes something a derivative work.

In a company large enough to have its own lawyers, just mention the
word GPL related to one of your software releases and see what happens
:)


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 11:01:21 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:01:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<20081002195721.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810031101.33087.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Friday October 3 2008 10:54:24 Dan Armbrust wrote:
> >> If Tomcat were under GPL, we wouldn't be using
> >> Tomcat.  Simple as that.
> >
> > You most likely would, since you are insulated from the tomcat
> > implementation by the servlet/jsp/jsf/whatver interface specification.
>
> Corporate lawyers don't want to even here the word GPL, much less
> debate what makes something a derivative work.
>
> In a company large enough to have its own lawyers, just mention the
> word GPL related to one of your software releases and see what happens
>
> :)

Really? Then where does all this GPL software come from? Do you think it's all 
fat kids in mom's basement making this stuff?

-pete
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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 11:05:35 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:05:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021500270.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021500270.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810030905h7978c50ch5fa1a1639f784a36@mail.gmail.com>

>
> If you want to encourage people to contribute to your project, and you
> want your project to survive and prosper, then GPL is a better choice
> because it doesn't encourage people to make proprietary programs to
> compete with yours, and it forces people who use your code to share their
> enhancements with you.  So GPL is a much better choice for many projects
> and that is why it is so widely used.
>

I guess that depends on what sort of software you are developing.  In
the Java ecosystem, almost all of the useful 3rd party libraries for
Java are not GPL licensed - since so many Java developers work for
large companies that are scared of GPL.

In my current job, I'm not allowed to use any GPL libraries.  But
Apache, and other less restrictive licenses are fair game.

When I make use of a third party library, I have no interest in
competing with that library.  Nor do I have any interest in
maintaining my own modified, perhaps better or bug fixed copy of that
library.  If I have to modify the library for my job at hand, I'm
going to release my changes back to the maintainer - because that is
the pragmatic thing to do.  I want my changes integrated into the next
version, so I don't have to re-fix later  I have no interest in
maintaining my own copy of his code.  With most types of software,
there is no reason to put the GPL gun to your users heads.  They are
already inclined to make the project better by providing patches, etc.

At least that's the way it works with most of the opensource software
that I interact with.


From haircut at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 11:06:04 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:06:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux backup software
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223049964.28806.42.camel@scraps>

On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 16:59 -0500, Andy Schmid wrote:
> I'm looking for some advice on backing up data on a Linux workstation.
> 
> I have looked around a bit, but most software suites seem way too
> large and complex for what I need (e.x. Amanda).  Does anyone know of
> a simpler solution to use for routine backups? 

If you would like to try a GUI, Simple Backup is very cool:
http://sbackup.sf.net/

If you prefer something on the command line, I agree with the other
posters that some type of rsync-based solution is optimal. It helps to
have a wrapper around rsync, IMHO.

To this end, I've had equal success with rsnapshot
( http://rsnapshot.org/ ) and rdiff-backup
( http://www.nongnu.org/rdiff-backup/ ). Both are a little tricky to
configure at first, but after a short time looking over their decent
documentation, you'll have a consistent, efficient, reliable backup
solution. Backups are directly accessible, meaning: no need for a
special "restore" tool for the simple case of restoring the most recent
backed-up version of a file or directory. rsnapshot has one important
limitation: you cannot push backups to a remote server. The backup
server *must* have rsnapshot installed. I've also heard great things
about dirvish, but never tried it myself.

Tips on rsnapshot: http://adammonsen.com/post/269

I don't have anything written up about rdiff-backup, but the
configuration is even simpler than rsnapshot. Here's how I use it:

rdiff-backup --include-globbing-filelist /etc/to_backup \
    user at remote.backup.host::/backups/backupname
rdiff-backup --remove-older-than 60D \
    user at remote.backup.host::/backups/backupname

These two shell commands are in /etc/cron.daily/mybackup .

Here is the content of /etc/to_backup:

-------------------------8<-------------------------
/etc
/home/user
- /*
------------------------->8-------------------------

This just backs up my homedir and /etc. I forget why the third line is
necessary, but I just remember that it definitely is necessary. :)

Other random hints:
* I would not recommend backupninja
( http://riseuplabs.org/backupninja/ ) ... it is naught more than an
overly complex set of shell scripts. YMMV, of course. It was
particularly frustrating to try and get it working on Fedora due to
dependencies on particular software revisions, but it worked slightly
better on Ubuntu.

* I was very excited about DIBS
( http://directory.fsf.org/project/DIBS/ ), but was never able to get a
decent working solution.

* I use Ubuntu, and installing any/all of the backup software I've
mentioned in this email is a simple matter of "sudo apt-get install X"

* If you want your backups to be encrypted, you might try duplicity
( http://duplicity.nongnu.org/ ). I instead opted for full control of
the remote backup server, and having the backup medium fully encrypted.

* My content to be backed up is around 50GB. It's hard to get enough
bandwidth via a home DSL or cable modem connection to come up with a
viable offsite backup solution. I would instead consider using a couple
of external USB drives and always having one offsite. A friend of mine
always had one backup drive at work, and one at home.

* My memory is hazy, but I believe some or all of the solutions I've
mentioned require rsync to be installed on the backup server.

* Don't forget to do test restores!

Good luck!

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 11:14:50 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:14:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810030914u2ad2fa5cs14327ca082dc64f1@mail.gmail.com>

>> Apache and Eclipse don't allow GPL licensed code contributions,
>> because its not free enough.  The restrictions are silly.  Why would
>> you want to cut your software off from 90% of your potential users?
>
> Do you have any way to substantiate the 90% claim?


No, I admit, its a gut feel.  But most software developers work for
medium to large sized companies.  And every medium to large size
company I've worked at has been scared of the GPL.  So I certainly
don't think it's an unreasonable figure.


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Oct  3 11:13:32 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:13:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002195721.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081003161332.GS3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 10:54:24AM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> >> If Tomcat were under GPL, we wouldn't be using
> >> Tomcat.  Simple as that.
> >
> > You most likely would, since you are insulated from the tomcat
> > implementation by the servlet/jsp/jsf/whatver interface specification.
> 
> Corporate lawyers don't want to even here the word GPL, much less
> debate what makes something a derivative work.
> 
> In a company large enough to have its own lawyers, just mention the
> word GPL related to one of your software releases and see what happens

Oh, I know what happens.  Five years ago, our lawyers did not want to
have anything to do with Apache license either.  So we ended up
reimplementing struts, poorly, and we lost tons of money and contract
opportunities because we were a few years late.

But this is not GPL's fault, is it?

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Oct  3 11:22:15 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:22:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810030914u2ad2fa5cs14327ca082dc64f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030914u2ad2fa5cs14327ca082dc64f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081003162215.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 11:14:50AM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> >> Apache and Eclipse don't allow GPL licensed code contributions,
> >> because its not free enough.  The restrictions are silly.  Why would
> >> you want to cut your software off from 90% of your potential users?
> >
> > Do you have any way to substantiate the 90% claim?
> 
> No, I admit, its a gut feel.  But most software developers work for
> medium to large sized companies.  And every medium to large size
> company I've worked at has been scared of the GPL.  So I certainly
> don't think it's an unreasonable figure.

Again, you use the word "scared" in the context of GPL.  Show me the
actual problems with the GPL.

Choose one thing and you'll find people 'scared' scared of it.  What
does that prove?

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Oct  3 11:23:19 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 11:23:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002195721.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <06ACF5DC-100F-4F5E-A0B2-25E9164FBFBA@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 3, 2008, at 10:54 AM, Dan Armbrust wrote:

>>> If Tomcat were under GPL, we wouldn't be using
>>> Tomcat.  Simple as that.
>>
>> You most likely would, since you are insulated from the tomcat
>> implementation by the servlet/jsp/jsf/whatver interface  
>> specification.
>
> Corporate lawyers don't want to even here the word GPL, much less
> debate what makes something a derivative work.
>
> In a company large enough to have its own lawyers, just mention the
> word GPL related to one of your software releases and see what happens
> :)


ACTUALLY, when I worked for Ingersoll-Rand, they had a rather  
restrictive "inventor's" clause they wanted me to sign, which,  
essentially, wanted me to sign ALL rights to anything I wrote/built/ 
designed/thought-of/fathered/etc.  I denied, and we re-negotiated  
things.  One of those was that any software utilities I wrote would be  
attributable to me, and GPL'd.  Better than me just having to sign  
everything to them.

For the record, I'm not a fan of GPL'd software, I prefer a BSD  
license, but in this circumstance, it was a reasonable middle-ground.
---
Eric Crist






From haircut at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 11:41:54 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 11:41:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1223052114.28806.72.camel@scraps>

On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 14:22 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> What is the best choice?

Excellent question, Mike!

Are you going to need to maintain or integrate with existing code, or
should we assume you're taking the "tabula rasa" approach with the code
you'll be writing? If it's the former, I'd suggest Perl. I'd bet there's
more Perl out there than Ruby. That dang CPAN has everything and the
kitchen sink. And the bathroom sink too.

I don't have experience with Ruby, but former Perl-loving colleagues of
mine started a Ruby-only shop. They now have many thousands of lines of
code and still absolutely love Ruby. I generally dismiss any arguments
about very high-level languages getting unwieldy after X number of lines
because I'm convinced you can write sloppy, unwieldy code in any
language. :)

I've used Perl for years, but my current favorite is Python. This is
mainly because Perl has too much syntax--I can barely read my own code
from years ago! Python, on the other hand, reads like pseudocode. I 
actually love that it forces programmers to use consistent indenting.

If you happen to know of a particular feature you want to be built-in or
easily accessible (do you want one leading option for Web development?
do you like monkey-patching and duck-typing? do you use regular
expressions often? do you want to type as few characters as possible?) a
particular language might emerge as the best choice for you.

But all programming languages are Turing-complete, right? All the ones
we've discussed are mostly procedural. Most run on almost any platform.
All have their warts. All will doubtlessly be more rapid to develop than
C/C++, Java, etc. Any way, you win!

Here's a thought: learn a more functional language like Smalltalk or
Haskell! Both have seen recent surges of interest. Smalltalk with
Seaside/Squeak, Haskell with uh... Pugs, I guess. Anyway, I'm thinking
it might be good to create some new and unique synapses/neurons/whatever
by forcing yourself to think differently.

Please let us (or at least me) know which language you pick and how the
journey progresses. Start a blog, perhaps? This is fun stuff.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 12:11:59 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:11:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081003162215.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030914u2ad2fa5cs14327ca082dc64f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081003162215.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810031011r2df84c39rc2dc24bcd2c0da64@mail.gmail.com>

> Again, you use the word "scared" in the context of GPL.  Show me the
> actual problems with the GPL.
>

Well, I guess it was more the reaction that I've seen in person from
the various corporate lawyers that I have had to interact with in the
past.  I don't know if they were actually scared of the GPL, but they
made darn sure to try to scare me into not even bringing that up again
as a possibility.  Most of them are only interested in minimizing
risk.

Maybe you have worked for companies that have more reasonable lawyers
than what I have encountered.

But if you were writing software for a company, which your company
didn't want to release, but you wanted to use some GPL licensed
utility in the software, do you really want to attempt to convince
your corporate lawyers whether or not your usage fits the definition
of a derivative work?  Assuming you can even find a legal, court
tested definition....


From josh at tcbug.org  Fri Oct  3 12:39:16 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:39:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <48E5ED77.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48E61EC2.8030202@tcbug.org>
	<48E5ED77.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <48E658C4.6080802@tcbug.org>

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Troy.A Johnson wrote:
>>>> On 10/3/2008 at 8:31 AM, in message <48E61EC2.8030202 at tcbug.org>, Josh Paetzel
> <josh at tcbug.org> wrote:
>> My advice to people is, if you've gone through the work of learning
>> perl, all of it's operators, all of it's special cases and exceptions
>> (and there's a lot of those) all of it's commonly used paradigms, then
>> there's no compelling reason to change.  If you are wanting to learn
>> something today, python and ruby are attractive choices.
> 
> What about them make them more attractive choices than Perl?
> 
> Because Python and Ruby have fewer operators, special cases, 
> exceptions, and common paradigms?
> 

I'll attempt to answer that in two parts.  Why I no longer use perl, and
 why perl seems to have fallen in popularity.

Before I start let me preface these comments with a bit of background.
I am a professional programmer, languages don't mean a lot to me.  I
really don't have a favorite language any more than I had a favorite
tool in my carpentry days.  Lately I've been working in an all python
shop, could just as easily had been ruby or C++ though.

I no longer personally use perl after a string of bad experiences that
culminated in me rewriting a backup program I'd written myself in perl
that was suffering from some bugs that I couldn't figure out.  In fact,
in looking at the code a year later I was having trouble following what
it was doing.  I still know perl, at least as well as python, but I no
longer use it, just like I rarely use awk anymore these days.  My
personal complaints is that it's far too hard to debug and maintain perl
to justify using it anymore.

I think perl has fallen in popularity across the board because of
several reasons.

1) There are other viable alternatives out there.  Yes perl has a lot of
modules on CPAN, more so than python or ruby has available.  But that's
only relevent if you are trying to do something for which there is no
python or ruby module, and there is a perl module...and in 2008 that's a
fairly small edge case.

2) For a lot of applications speed simply doesn't matter.  People use
RoR all the time for deploying webapps and that's ungodly slow and
hardware intensive.  Why aren't they using the faster more efficient
perl?  Why has perl gone from the only game in town to virtually unused
for dynamic web content?  Most web developers will cite maintainability,
speed of development, and debugging concerns

I wouldn't suggest to someone who is proficient in perl to stop using it
(even though I have myself).  But for someone who is looking to learn a
programming language today, there are better choices available that
weren't around or viable 20 years ago.

That being said, there are cases where perl is the right tool for the
job, I'm not trying to say that it's evil and should be stricken from
the earth.  It's flexibility is it's power, and if you are willing to
learn it inside out it can be a very powerful tool.  I do think there
are very valid reasons why the world has sort of moved on.

- --
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

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From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 12:42:28 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:42:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux backup software
In-Reply-To: <1223049964.28806.42.camel@scraps>
References: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223049964.28806.42.camel@scraps>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810031042u3f9418a8gb229e4fb894966c8@mail.gmail.com>

I've had good success with BackupPC: http://backuppc.sourceforge.net,
though I'm not sure it will fit into what you want (rotating media).

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 12:55:32 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:55:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <20081002222638.GB27168@refried.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
	<20081002203250.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021627360.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002222638.GB27168@refried.org>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810031055t32cd0fc8q66e4e70d3948fc5b@mail.gmail.com>

> Figuring out the right regular expression is one of those things that
> makes me appreciate the interactive shell.  Throw some test data in a
> variable and keep modifying the regex until it matches the way you want
> it.  Then just copy and paste the working regex into your script for
> production use.

I use The Regex Coach for interactive Regex. Handy tool when your
language of choice that doesn't have an interactive shell for testing
things.

http://www.weitz.de/regex-coach

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Oct  3 12:57:29 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 12:57:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810031055t32cd0fc8q66e4e70d3948fc5b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002201622.GB15846@refried.org>
	<20081002203250.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021627360.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002222638.GB27168@refried.org>
	<e3a54b020810031055t32cd0fc8q66e4e70d3948fc5b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810031057k78d09a82hbe8fc2bf496e669a@mail.gmail.com>

I should have mentioned that The Regex Coach is a Windows program.
Since I sit in fornt of a windows computer all day at work I haven't
had the need to look for a Linux equivalent.  ;-)

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Oct  3 13:53:36 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 13:53:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810031011r2df84c39rc2dc24bcd2c0da64@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030914u2ad2fa5cs14327ca082dc64f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081003162215.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810031011r2df84c39rc2dc24bcd2c0da64@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081003185336.GU3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Oct 03, 2008 at 12:11:59PM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> > Again, you use the word "scared" in the context of GPL.  Show me the
> > actual problems with the GPL.
> 
> Well, I guess it was more the reaction that I've seen in person from
> the various corporate lawyers that I have had to interact with in the
> past.  I don't know if they were actually scared of the GPL, but they
> made darn sure to try to scare me into not even bringing that up again
> as a possibility.  Most of them are only interested in minimizing
> risk.
> 
> Maybe you have worked for companies that have more reasonable lawyers
> than what I have encountered.
> 
> But if you were writing software for a company, which your company
> didn't want to release, but you wanted to use some GPL licensed
> utility in the software, do you really want to attempt to convince
> your corporate lawyers whether or not your usage fits the definition
> of a derivative work?  Assuming you can even find a legal, court
> tested definition....

If it fits or not the definition of derivative work is the job of the
lawyers, and if it makes sense from the business side is the job of
the VPs.  In any venture there are risks and payoffs and one has to make
all sorts of choice, based on competing constraints.  GPL is just another
one of those choices along with buy, lease, build, license, and others.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct  3 16:55:10 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 16:55:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002195721.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030854x45f1c497gbd1ade0a79768c4d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810031650240.15697@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 3 Oct 2008, Dan Armbrust wrote:

>>> If Tomcat were under GPL, we wouldn't be using Tomcat.  Simple as 
>>> that.
>>
>> You most likely would, since you are insulated from the tomcat 
>> implementation by the servlet/jsp/jsf/whatver interface specification.
>
> Corporate lawyers don't want to even here the word GPL, much less debate 
> what makes something a derivative work.
>
> In a company large enough to have its own lawyers, just mention the word 
> GPL related to one of your software releases and see what happens :)


I wouldn't expect corporate lawyers to be concerned about my needs or the 
needs of customers.  The whole point of the GPL, it's reason for existing, 
is that corporations produce proprietary software to suit their own needs, 
not the needs of the customer.  The GPL provides rights to the customer 
that corporations usually do not want to provide.  That has changed a 
little in recent years.

If a corporation had to choose between releasing code under GPL or 
releasing it under BSD, they might very well prefer GPL.  BSD is giving it 
away to proprietary competitors, but GPL means that improvements made by 
competitors come back to you (if the competitor distributes the software).

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct  3 17:37:56 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 17:37:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October
In-Reply-To: <20081003185336.GU3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810011930500.28313@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081002030554.GA26134@therub.org>
	<200810012230.52098.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<82f04dc40810020810w115c347ct640b09dce1309075@mail.gmail.com>
	<1222961887.9596.1277172795@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<82f04dc40810020930n1517a136lbf42e85b94f4a9c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081002202230.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810030914u2ad2fa5cs14327ca082dc64f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081003162215.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc40810031011r2df84c39rc2dc24bcd2c0da64@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081003185336.GU3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810031726420.15697@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 3 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> In any venture there are risks and payoffs and one has to make all sorts 
> of choice, based on competing constraints.  GPL is just another one of 
> those choices along with buy, lease, build, license, and others.

I agree.  The reason I agree is that some companies choose to release code 
under the GPL.  These companies must have "corporate lawyers" approving 
such choices.  One example I know of is the VNC program released under the 
GPL by the Olivetti & Oracle Research Lab which was owned by Olivetti and 
Oracle Corporation at the time.  This program changed names to RealVNC a 
few years after AT&T bought the lab and shut it down.  RealVNC is still 
available under GPL as are several variants that have been developed by 
other people, but there is also a commercial version with enhancements 
(most importantly, encryption).

I started using Xvnc on my Solaris box in about 1997.  Great stuff.

References:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Network_Computing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RealVNC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivetti_Research_Laboratory

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct  3 18:29:43 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 18:29:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

See my message and invitation to Richard Stallman below followed by his 
reply after that.  (I'm more than happy to pay for Stallman's food/drinks, 
etc. myself but would accept donations.)

So here's the big thing:  Stallman isn't saying that he won't meet with us 
under other conditions, but he is saying that *promises* to meet with us 
only if we change the name of TCLUG to Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group 
(TCGLUG?).  He wants the GNU in there!

What do you all think of that?  For me, to add GNU/ to the name of the 
group is very appealing in every way except for one -- it is work.  I 
would happily do some of the work.  You can read more about Stallman's 
ideas here:

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.html

There's more good stuff if you follow links on that page, specifically:

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html
http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html

So let's discuss this idea and see where it leads.

Mike

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 19:58:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
To: Richard Stallman <rms at gnu.org>
Subject: TCLUG wants to meet you

Hello Richard--

I am writing because I learned recently that you will be in town to give a 
talk on the U Minnesota campus on October 21.  We have a Twin Cities Linux 
Users Group (TCLUG) with an email list where we enjoy many discussions 
about software licensing, GNU applications, Richard Stallman and so on. 
Many of us in TCLUG are very eager to hear from you.  It will be the best 
night of the year for us.  After your talk we will get together at a 
nearby brewpub that also serves soft drinks and some decent food.  It 
would be a great thrill for all of us if you could join us there.

You probably have a full schedule already, but if there is any time during 
your visit to the Twin Cities when you can hang out with our people, maybe 
for a meal, we would enjoy it greatly and we would pay for all of your 
food/drinks and would transport you to/from your hotel, or wherever.

Anyway, just wanted you to know that you are very welcome here and we look 
forward to seeing you.

Best,

Mike

P.S.  You told me a few years ago that I should dump Pine because of its 
license, and partly because of your advice, I am now using Alpine, which 
has a GPL-compatible license.

-- 
Michael B. Miller, Ph.D.
http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------



Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2008 12:44:56 -0400
From: Richard M. Stallman <rms at gnu.org>
To: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: TCLUG wants to meet you

There's only one thing that would prevent me from joining you: the
name of your group.  Calling it a "Linux User Group" means, in effect,
calling the GNU system "Linux".  That gives the credit for our work to
someone that came later, did less--and rejects our ideals of freedom!

It's clear that you and others in the group are warmly disposed
towards me.  At the same time, you're treating me rather badly
(without realizing it).  It's a delicate situation.  I would like to
respond to the warmth, but I can't overlook the harm.

Would you please change the name and become a GNU/Linux User Group?


From jack at jacku.com  Fri Oct  3 23:32:16 2008
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2008 23:32:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted language
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810031057k78d09a82hbe8fc2bf496e669a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<e3a54b020810031055t32cd0fc8q66e4e70d3948fc5b@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3a54b020810031057k78d09a82hbe8fc2bf496e669a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810032332.17345.jack@jacku.com>

On Friday 03 October 2008, Andrew Zbikowski wrote:
> I should have mentioned that The Regex Coach is a Windows program.
> Since I sit in fornt of a windows computer all day at work I haven't
> had the need to look for a Linux equivalent.  ;-)

A quick comment for python users. There is a python regex debugger out there 
called Kodos.  (http://kodos.sourceforge.net)

I remember using it a couple of years ago. If you are doing regex in python 
its worth a look. Should work on any platform that runs python.
-- 
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Sat Oct  4 13:08:01 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 13:08:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux backup software
In-Reply-To: <1223049964.28806.42.camel@scraps>
References: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223049964.28806.42.camel@scraps>
Message-ID: <200810041308.01191.tclug@lizakowski.com>


Unison is good for synchonizing machines - I use it to sync my laptop with my 
desktop.  It is bi-directional, unlike rsync.

On Friday 03 October 2008 11:06:04 am Adam Monsen wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-02 at 16:59 -0500, Andy Schmid wrote:
> > I'm looking for some advice on backing up data on a Linux workstation.
> >
> > I have looked around a bit, but most software suites seem way too
> > large and complex for what I need (e.x. Amanda).  Does anyone know of
> > a simpler solution to use for routine backups?
>
> If you would like to try a GUI, Simple Backup is very cool:
> http://sbackup.sf.net/
>
> If you prefer something on the command line, I agree with the other
> posters that some type of rsync-based solution is optimal. It helps to
> have a wrapper around rsync, IMHO.
>
> To this end, I've had equal success with rsnapshot
> ( http://rsnapshot.org/ ) and rdiff-backup
> ( http://www.nongnu.org/rdiff-backup/ ). Both are a little tricky to
> configure at first, but after a short time looking over their decent
> documentation, you'll have a consistent, efficient, reliable backup
> solution. Backups are directly accessible, meaning: no need for a
> special "restore" tool for the simple case of restoring the most recent
> backed-up version of a file or directory. rsnapshot has one important
> limitation: you cannot push backups to a remote server. The backup
> server *must* have rsnapshot installed. I've also heard great things
> about dirvish, but never tried it myself.
>
> Tips on rsnapshot: http://adammonsen.com/post/269
>
> I don't have anything written up about rdiff-backup, but the
> configuration is even simpler than rsnapshot. Here's how I use it:
>
> rdiff-backup --include-globbing-filelist /etc/to_backup \
>     user at remote.backup.host::/backups/backupname
> rdiff-backup --remove-older-than 60D \
>     user at remote.backup.host::/backups/backupname
>
> These two shell commands are in /etc/cron.daily/mybackup .
>
> Here is the content of /etc/to_backup:
>
> -------------------------8<-------------------------
> /etc
> /home/user
> - /*
> ------------------------->8-------------------------
>
> This just backs up my homedir and /etc. I forget why the third line is
> necessary, but I just remember that it definitely is necessary. :)
>
> Other random hints:
> * I would not recommend backupninja
> ( http://riseuplabs.org/backupninja/ ) ... it is naught more than an
> overly complex set of shell scripts. YMMV, of course. It was
> particularly frustrating to try and get it working on Fedora due to
> dependencies on particular software revisions, but it worked slightly
> better on Ubuntu.
>
> * I was very excited about DIBS
> ( http://directory.fsf.org/project/DIBS/ ), but was never able to get a
> decent working solution.
>
> * I use Ubuntu, and installing any/all of the backup software I've
> mentioned in this email is a simple matter of "sudo apt-get install X"
>
> * If you want your backups to be encrypted, you might try duplicity
> ( http://duplicity.nongnu.org/ ). I instead opted for full control of
> the remote backup server, and having the backup medium fully encrypted.
>
> * My content to be backed up is around 50GB. It's hard to get enough
> bandwidth via a home DSL or cable modem connection to come up with a
> viable offsite backup solution. I would instead consider using a couple
> of external USB drives and always having one offsite. A friend of mine
> always had one backup drive at work, and one at home.
>
> * My memory is hazy, but I believe some or all of the solutions I've
> mentioned require rsync to be installed on the backup server.
>
> * Don't forget to do test restores!
>
> Good luck!




From jima at beer.tclug.org  Sat Oct  4 18:22:14 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 18:22:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48E7FAA6.1000900@beer.tclug.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> So let's discuss this idea and see where it leads.

  Who's buying tcglug.org?  I pay for enough domains as it is. ;-)
  (At least mn-linux.org is name-agnostic...)

      Jima


From nate at refried.org  Sat Oct  4 18:40:36 2008
From: nate at refried.org (Nate Straz)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 19:40:36 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48E7FAA6.1000900@beer.tclug.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E7FAA6.1000900@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <20081004234036.GC27168@refried.org>

On Oct  4 18:22, Jima wrote:
> Mike Miller wrote:
> > So let's discuss this idea and see where it leads.
> 
>   Who's buying tcglug.org?  I pay for enough domains as it is. ;-)
>   (At least mn-linux.org is name-agnostic...)

But it really should be mn-gnu-linux.org.  ;-)

Nate


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Sat Oct  4 18:49:54 2008
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 16:49:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
Message-ID: <359692.69784.qm@web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

You invite the guy to dinner and he sets conditions. Go ahead and feed this tiny mans ego and change the name, To what end?  He can further insult your good intentions in person.  Just change the name to Twin Cities Gnu User Group.  He still won't be satisfied.

Agree with him - disagree with him.  He's a jackass!  


From strayf at freeshell.org  Sat Oct  4 18:57:38 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 18:57:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org>

I have no objections to a name change. Probably calls for a poll of some 
sort though.

-Steve



From tompoe at fngi.net  Sat Oct  4 19:15:29 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 19:15:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>

Steve Cayford wrote:
> I have no objections to a name change. Probably calls for a poll of some 
> sort though.
>
> -Steve
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
If there's money involved, maybe it would be good to know how much, and 
then have suggestions on how best to spend that money to maximum benefit 
for everyone.  Maybe it might be better to look before committing to a 
name change.
Tom


From j at packetgod.com  Sat Oct  4 20:27:30 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:27:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org> <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0810041827x2f37b39ch18e1fd9c588c7d36@mail.gmail.com>

I'd dig tugalug (Twincities Uber Gnu and Linux User Group) :)

--j

On Sat, Oct 4, 2008 at 7:15 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at fngi.net> wrote:
> Steve Cayford wrote:
>> I have no objections to a name change. Probably calls for a poll of some
>> sort though.
>>
>> -Steve
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> If there's money involved, maybe it would be good to know how much, and
> then have suggestions on how best to spend that money to maximum benefit
> for everyone.  Maybe it might be better to look before committing to a
> name change.
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Sat Oct  4 20:35:49 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:35:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <359692.69784.qm@web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <359692.69784.qm@web32805.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200810042035.51003.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Saturday October 4 2008 18:49:54 Robert Wilkinson wrote:
> You invite the guy to dinner and he sets conditions.

Yeah, because it's not what the guy's been pushing for his entire adult life 
or anything. I mean, jeez, how dare he.

> Go ahead and feed this
> tiny mans ego and change the name, To what end?  He can further insult your
> good intentions in person.  Just change the name to Twin Cities Gnu User
> Group.  He still won't be satisfied.
>
> Agree with him - disagree with him.  He's a jackass!

Do you kiss your mother with that mouth?

-p.
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sat Oct  4 20:50:09 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:50:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org> <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810042026510.5930@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sat, 4 Oct 2008, Tom Poe wrote:

> Steve Cayford wrote:
>
>> I have no objections to a name change. Probably calls for a poll of 
>> some sort though.
>
> If there's money involved, maybe it would be good to know how much, and 
> then have suggestions on how best to spend that money to maximum benefit 
> for everyone.  Maybe it might be better to look before committing to a 
> name change.

I think we can start by discussing whether a name change is a good idea in 
principle.  I think it is.  Then we can talk about what the real effects 
of a name change are:  Updating web page text, web page graphics, 
letterhead(?), schwag, and so on.

I think tclug.org is fine to keep.  If we vote to change the name, we 
should just change in web page text both the long name (to Twin Cities 
GNU/Linux User Group) and the abbreviation (to TCGLUG), which should be an 
easy perl regexp kind of thing to do, and then deal with the graphical 
stuff in time.

Mike


From canito at dalan.us  Sat Oct  4 20:57:44 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2008 20:57:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org> <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <20081004205744.12db8d04@lalisee>

On Sat, 04 Oct 2008 19:15:29 -0500
Tom Poe <tompoe at fngi.net> wrote:

> Steve Cayford wrote:
> > I have no objections to a name change. Probably calls for a poll of some 
> > sort though.
> >
> > -Steve
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >   
> If there's money involved, maybe it would be good to know how much, and 
> then have suggestions on how best to spend that money to maximum benefit 
> for everyone.  Maybe it might be better to look before committing to a 
> name change.
> Tom
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 

I am willing to donate a small amount of $$$. Even, if we don't change the name could we start a sister-list to satisfy (tcgnu) those who truly honor free software? Then, we can spin it off to Mr. Stallman - get his blessing??? :) Agree or disagree I feel we all share a common belief which brings us to this list.

D


From asim at cognizo.com  Sat Oct  4 23:46:51 2008
From: asim at cognizo.com (Asim Baig)
Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2008 23:46:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810042026510.5930@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org>
	<48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810042026510.5930@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48E846BB.6070509@cognizo.com>

I owe most of my job career, my current recruiting business and software 
ventures to GNU/Linux. I will be more then happy to have my graphics 
designer provide help in updating graphics/website content, should the 
vote be in favor of a change (which btw I support).


Cheers!


*Asim Baig*
Cognizo Technologies
8201 Norman Center Drive, Suite 220
Bloomington, MN 55437
w: (952) 232-0880 x101
c: (612) 382-7474
------------------------------------------------------------------------
#1 Open Source Recruiting <http://www.cognizo.com/> firm in USA


Mike Miller wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Oct 2008, Tom Poe wrote:
>
>   
>> Steve Cayford wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I have no objections to a name change. Probably calls for a poll of 
>>> some sort though.
>>>       
>> If there's money involved, maybe it would be good to know how much, and 
>> then have suggestions on how best to spend that money to maximum benefit 
>> for everyone.  Maybe it might be better to look before committing to a 
>> name change.
>>     
>
> I think we can start by discussing whether a name change is a good idea in 
> principle.  I think it is.  Then we can talk about what the real effects 
> of a name change are:  Updating web page text, web page graphics, 
> letterhead(?), schwag, and so on.
>
> I think tclug.org is fine to keep.  If we vote to change the name, we 
> should just change in web page text both the long name (to Twin Cities 
> GNU/Linux User Group) and the abbreviation (to TCGLUG), which should be an 
> easy perl regexp kind of thing to do, and then deal with the graphical 
> stuff in time.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   
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From kcbnac at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 10:15:31 2008
From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 11:15:31 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] RMS Fun
In-Reply-To: <081c01c924e1$9cdcb000$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <081c01c924e1$9cdcb000$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <32fd45370810050815h49c67480s1af507712ebb8cd2@mail.gmail.com>

Yup.  But it's already been done - so what do WE do when he comes to
visit at the end of October?

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
> Ok, you gotta admit this is cute.
>
>
>
> http://xkcd.com/225/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


From sulrich at botwerks.org  Sun Oct  5 11:10:13 2008
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 11:10:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] RMS Fun
In-Reply-To: <32fd45370810050815h49c67480s1af507712ebb8cd2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <081c01c924e1$9cdcb000$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<32fd45370810050815h49c67480s1af507712ebb8cd2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f2ec4fb50810050910h36b9c3b9x8b6b6668fd14c415@mail.gmail.com>

engage in a dry-heave inducing discussion of open source licensing
religious fundamentalism?

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 10:15 AM, Keith Bachman <kcbnac at gmail.com> wrote:
> Yup.  But it's already been done - so what do WE do when he comes to
> visit at the end of October?
>
> On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 6:52 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
>> Ok, you gotta admit this is cute.
>>
>> http://xkcd.com/225/

-- 
steve ulrich (sulrich at botwerks.*)


From sloncho at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 11:29:51 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 11:29:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810050929j72ea968du69007ab57a1ee13e@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> See my message and invitation to Richard Stallman below followed by his
> reply after that.  (I'm more than happy to pay for Stallman's food/drinks,
> etc. myself but would accept donations.)
>
> So here's the big thing:  Stallman isn't saying that he won't meet with us
> under other conditions, but he is saying that *promises* to meet with us
> only if we change the name of TCLUG to Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group
> (TCGLUG?).  He wants the GNU in there!
>

While I do recognize and respect the GNU participation in terms of
"GNU/Linux", and I support RMSs' fight so that it's not forgotten,
I'll have hard time to support name change, for the following reasons
(not in particular order):

1. To shorten long terms is so human for everyday speech, that I (as
not part of GNU project) see very natural for all practical purposes
to use Linux instead of GNU/Linux.
2. LUG is very very popular abbreviation - I could not find any GLUG.
And for everybody out there (out TC I mean) LUG is something which
sounds familiar and understandable, but GLUG?
3. I do not like un-negotiable conditions, no matter who sets them.
And frankly speaking, RMS can do better if he meets us, and convince
at least 3 more people that GNU part of GNU/Linux is important, that
requesting a name change, as the other way around - eventually not
meeting anybody (convincing anybody), if we decide not to change the
name.

Anyway - in RMS's words (see the other thread) - I know he is right,
and I'll not object a name change, but I would not "recommend" it :)

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From cncole at earthlink.net  Sun Oct  5 15:57:37 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 15:57:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810050929j72ea968du69007ab57a1ee13e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEPICLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

Seems like Stallman is a conceited dinosaur who has outlived his time and mission.  Perhaps that is why he was invited.  He should
have passed the orch long ago and just "done good works" instead of continuing his ranting and raving.  He could be known and
respected as a guru who made major contribution if it weren't for the fanatic and inappropriate raving he continues.

The conceit to insist that the TCLUG name be changed is extreme, unprofessional, and unforgivable.  I see no implication that GNU is
ignored or disrespected in the name TCLUG: it's just plain and simple naming (KISS).  We should not change the name, but could put a
credit mention of GNU (etc) on the website.

I would not bother to hear him talk after all this.  I would recommend that his invitations to speak and to have a drink afterwards
be revoked, but neither are mine to decide.


Chuck


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Sunny
> Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 11:30 AM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 6:29 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> > See my message and invitation to Richard Stallman below followed by his
> > reply after that.  (I'm more than happy to pay for Stallman's food/drinks,
> > etc. myself but would accept donations.)
> >
> > So here's the big thing:  Stallman isn't saying that he won't meet with us
> > under other conditions, but he is saying that *promises* to meet with us
> > only if we change the name of TCLUG to Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group
> > (TCGLUG?).  He wants the GNU in there!
> >
>
> While I do recognize and respect the GNU participation in terms of
> "GNU/Linux", and I support RMSs' fight so that it's not forgotten,
> I'll have hard time to support name change, for the following reasons
> (not in particular order):
>
> 1. To shorten long terms is so human for everyday speech, that I (as
> not part of GNU project) see very natural for all practical purposes
> to use Linux instead of GNU/Linux.
> 2. LUG is very very popular abbreviation - I could not find any GLUG.
> And for everybody out there (out TC I mean) LUG is something which
> sounds familiar and understandable, but GLUG?
> 3. I do not like un-negotiable conditions, no matter who sets them.
> And frankly speaking, RMS can do better if he meets us, and convince
> at least 3 more people that GNU part of GNU/Linux is important, that
> requesting a name change, as the other way around - eventually not
> meeting anybody (convincing anybody), if we decide not to change the
> name.
>
> Anyway - in RMS's words (see the other thread) - I know he is right,
> and I'll not object a name change, but I would not "recommend" it :)
>
> Cheers
>
> --
> Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)
>
> Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
> a pile of scrap.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.5/1704 - Release Date: 10/5/2008 9:20 AM
>



From richart-it at marshacademy.com  Sun Oct  5 16:49:51 2008
From: richart-it at marshacademy.com (richart-it)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 16:49:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] choosing a general-purpose interpreted	language
In-Reply-To: <48E5F090.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021421520.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002193537.GA15846@refried.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021443090.19662@taxa.epi.umn.edu><20081002200959.GA48102@therub.org>	<48E5577B.2010005@freeshell.org><Pine.GSO.4.60.0810021852100.24473@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<68dbb6fe0810021954u4a1665eaw96964992f254419@mail.gmail.com>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017B7599@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810030017350.8955@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E5F090.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <48E9367F.2070405@marshacademy.com>

I didn't want to talk you guys to death, but I thought I would throw 
something in from left field.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lua_(programming_language)
I grew up programming in many dead languages, Fortran, COBOL, Pascal, 
Lisp, Prolog, Forth, blah, blah.
I. too, have used PERL well over 13 years, program in PHP and recently 
been poking around with Python and wxPython.
(um, did I mention Tcl & Tk ? and jimmy cricket, lets not start talking 
about vendor's specific scripting languages, shell script, etc.)
I pretty much agree with everything I saw, and would offer that you:
1) look for high level tutorials in Perl, Ruby, Python - get a taste so 
you can program yourself into a corner real fast.
2) then take that knowledge and set it aside and look at something like LUA
After doing steps one and two, you will have a good sense of which 
language matches your preferred programming style (and thinking).
(don't get caught up in the programming religious wars - you won't get 
the holy grail that way).
=rich=
p.s. love the blog idea - i learn more and faster reading someone's 
learning experiences
95% of the time, I am stuck with "I know what I want to do, what is the 
silly syntax???"

Troy.A Johnson wrote:
> I think if you look for "Perl to C compilers" you will get a number of interesting hits.
> It's been a topic of conversation for years.
>
> This seems to be what Perl is "doing":
>
> http://www.parrot.org/
>
> "Parrot is a virtual machine designed to efficiently compile and execute bytecode for dynamic languages. Parrot currently hosts a variety of language implementations in various stages of completion, including Tcl, Javascript, Ruby, Lua, Scheme, PHP, Python, Perl 6, APL, and a .NET bytecode translator."
>
> If you want to know something about Perl current events from someone 
> other than current Python and Ruby developers, you can go here:
>
> http://rakudo.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>   


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Sun Oct  5 21:21:25 2008
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 19:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list]  Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
Message-ID: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.  

Be
careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal. 

It might be time for the group to split?  



----- Original Message ----
From: Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net>
To: Sunny <sloncho at gmail.com>; TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 3:57:37 PM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG

Seems
like Stallman is a conceited dinosaur who has outlived his time and
mission.  Perhaps that is why he was invited.  He should
have passed the orch long ago and just "done good works" instead of continuing his ranting and raving.  He could be known and
respected as a guru who made major contribution if it weren't for the fanatic and inappropriate raving he continues.

The
conceit to insist that the TCLUG name be changed is extreme,
unprofessional, and unforgivable.  I see no implication that GNU is
ignored
or disrespected in the name TCLUG: it's just plain and simple naming
(KISS).  We should not change the name, but could put a
credit mention of GNU (etc) on the website.

I
would not bother to hear him talk after all this.  I would recommend
that his invitations to speak and to have a drink afterwards
be revoked, but neither are mine to decide.


Chuck


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Sun Oct  5 21:48:09 2008
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 21:48:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48E97C69.8030308@thecubic.net>

A fork?  Over beers with a guy who's known for his ranting?  I think we
need to slow down here - and put up a poll if there's enough people that
want the change for hopefully better reasons than that.

Although his cause is noble and important, asking us to change our name
to hang out with him smacks of egomania, as does the unnecessary
Torvalds-bashing.  It reminds me more of Fox News than MPR.

-Dave

Robert Wilkinson wrote:
> Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.  
>
> Be
> careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
> potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal. 
>
> It might be time for the group to split?  
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net>
> To: Sunny <sloncho at gmail.com>; TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 3:57:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
>
> Seems
> like Stallman is a conceited dinosaur who has outlived his time and
> mission.  Perhaps that is why he was invited.  He should
> have passed the orch long ago and just "done good works" instead of continuing his ranting and raving.  He could be known and
> respected as a guru who made major contribution if it weren't for the fanatic and inappropriate raving he continues.
>
> The
> conceit to insist that the TCLUG name be changed is extreme,
> unprofessional, and unforgivable.  I see no implication that GNU is
> ignored
> or disrespected in the name TCLUG: it's just plain and simple naming
> (KISS).  We should not change the name, but could put a
> credit mention of GNU (etc) on the website.
>
> I
> would not bother to hear him talk after all this.  I would recommend
> that his invitations to speak and to have a drink afterwards
> be revoked, but neither are mine to decide.
>
>
> Chuck
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   



From verigoth at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 21:57:17 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 21:57:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810051957j577ff5b6yc6d0df7cb2552661@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:21 PM, Robert Wilkinson
<r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.
>
> Be
> careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
> potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal.
>
> It might be time for the group to split?

I'm in favor of changing the name to Twin Cities Qt/Linux Users Group,
cause we all know KDE is the best desktop environment!  Actually I
don't live in the cities (I'm in Mankato) and was considering going to
see Mr Stallman as I don't have class, but I too take offense and no
longer care to hear what the man (or icon) has to say.  Pettiness is
unattractive.


From airchia at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 22:06:18 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:06:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810051957j577ff5b6yc6d0df7cb2552661@mail.gmail.com>
References: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<b9e05ef30810051957j577ff5b6yc6d0df7cb2552661@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810052006j5f63e8d6n7fd1af95f22eb31@mail.gmail.com>

Although I am fairly new here, I will say I'm not in favor of the name
change. As was mentioned before, the man agrees to have dinner or a beer or
whatever with us, but sets conditions? He's saying how we should re-name our
own group? Please. I know this can be a fiery subject among some in the open
source community, but what is the functional difference (if any) of being
called TC Linux User Group, GnuLinux User Group, or Gnu User Group? Let's
just focus on our Linux boxes and the tinkering that we all enjoy!

Nick Scholtes



On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:57 PM, Rob Bayerl <verigoth at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 5, 2008 at 9:21 PM, Robert Wilkinson
> <r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.
> >
> > Be
> > careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
> > potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal.
> >
> > It might be time for the group to split?
>
> I'm in favor of changing the name to Twin Cities Qt/Linux Users Group,
> cause we all know KDE is the best desktop environment!  Actually I
> don't live in the cities (I'm in Mankato) and was considering going to
> see Mr Stallman as I don't have class, but I too take offense and no
> longer care to hear what the man (or icon) has to say.  Pettiness is
> unattractive.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From florin at iucha.net  Sun Oct  5 22:51:12 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:51:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081006035112.GZ3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 07:21:25PM -0700, Robert Wilkinson wrote:
> Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.  
> 
> Be
> careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
> potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal. 
> 
> It might be time for the group to split?  

Yes, it is the time - you can go form the TC primadonnas Group.
You certainly match Richard Stallman in the ego department, but I haven't
seen anything to convince me that you are anywhere close to his abilities
and contribution to society.  As such, put the stones back in the pile;
you can also turn in the fake beards...

And while I'm riffing on the "Life of Brian" theme... ask yourselves
"What has Richard ever done for us?",  Other than the compiler,
assembler, a decent text editor and plethora of utilities (1), the GNU
manifesto and license (that inspired many people (including a certain
Finn) to contribute their time and talent to increase the availability
and usability of free software)?

Splitters!

florin

1: Yes, they are mostly re-implementations of the standard UNIX
commands, but vastly more robust and expanded.  For example, compare
SUN's grep with GNU grep.

> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net>
> To: Sunny <sloncho at gmail.com>; TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 3:57:37 PM
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
> 
> Seems
> like Stallman is a conceited dinosaur who has outlived his time and
> mission.  Perhaps that is why he was invited.  He should
> have passed the orch long ago and just "done good works" instead of continuing his ranting and raving.  He could be known and
> respected as a guru who made major contribution if it weren't for the fanatic and inappropriate raving he continues.
> 
> The
> conceit to insist that the TCLUG name be changed is extreme,
> unprofessional, and unforgivable.  I see no implication that GNU is
> ignored
> or disrespected in the name TCLUG: it's just plain and simple naming
> (KISS).  We should not change the name, but could put a
> credit mention of GNU (etc) on the website.
> 
> I
> would not bother to hear him talk after all this.  I would recommend
> that his invitations to speak and to have a drink afterwards
> be revoked, but neither are mine to decide.
> 
> 
> Chuck
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Sun Oct  5 23:57:10 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 23:57:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081006035112.GZ3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<20081006035112.GZ3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810052157vd0bc02aod703a62c7b14d408@mail.gmail.com>

The contribution of GNU is not insignificant. The kernel is called
Linux, and a majority of the tools are GNU. Together GNU and Linux
create the operating system, but there is still more to the operating
system than just GNU and Linux.

Would a simple title change be sufficient for RMS? Renaming the group
to Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group is easy enough, but dropping
things from acronyms is common enough, so keeping the TCLUG acronym
isn't out of the question...unless of course you are so far on to the
extreme in your position that anything less that your demands is not
acceptable. Unwillingness to find common ground and compromise only
serves to weaken, not strengthen, your position and alienate those who
would otherwise support you.

Even if we decided to utimatilly change the acronym to TCGLUG, there
would still be transition period. Odds are most of us would have to be
forced to change tclug-list at mn-linux.org to
tcglug-list at mn-gnu-linux.org. The old websites, domains, etc. would
still have to be around as any archival press coverage would be under
TCLUG.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From haircut at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 00:01:19 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:01:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux backup software
In-Reply-To: <1223049964.28806.42.camel@scraps>
References: <7b7c42a30810021459h58729280k90cb33df2cf5abb0@mail.gmail.com>
	<1223049964.28806.42.camel@scraps>
Message-ID: <1223269279.14463.1.camel@localhost>

See also this recent, relevant Slashdot post: "Easy, Reliable
Distributed Storage and Backup?"

http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/10/04/0237233

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  6 00:14:58 2008
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 22:14:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
Message-ID: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I claim no greatness! I take nothing away from what Stallman has contributed, and I even agree with some of his philosophy.

I reject his discourteous, rude, egotistical, arrogant, selfish, self serving, attitudes. 

A
gentleman would have graciously accepted the invitation, and politely
suggested while breaking bread that TCLUG think about changing the
name.

I don't give a rats behind what the name is, it's the way he went about it.  He has a lot of class: ALL LOW. 

BTW:  I also reject the sometimes irrational and venomous ramblings of some of his closed minded, hateful,  devoted followers. 

Robert


----- Original Message ----
From: Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net>
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Sent: Sunday, October 5, 2008 10:51:12 PM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG

On Sun, Oct 05, 2008 at 07:21:25PM -0700, Robert Wilkinson wrote:
> Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.  
> 
> Be
> careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
> potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal. 
> 
> It might be time for the group to split?  

Yes, it is the time - you can go form the TC primadonnas Group.
You certainly match Richard Stallman in the ego department, but I haven't
seen anything to convince me that you are anywhere close to his abilities
and contribution to society.  As such, put the stones back in the pile;
you can also turn in the fake beards...

And while I'm riffing on the "Life of Brian" theme... ask yourselves
"What has Richard ever done for us?",  Other than the compiler,
assembler, a decent text editor and plethora of utilities (1), the GNU
manifesto and license (that inspired many people (including a certain
Finn) to contribute their time and talent to increase the availability
and usability of free software)?

Splitters!

> 
> Seems
> like Stallman is a conceited dinosaur who has outlived his time and
> mission.  Perhaps that is why he was invited.  He should
>
have passed the orch long ago and just "done good works" instead of
continuing his ranting and raving.  He could be known and
> respected as a guru who made major contribution if it weren't for the fanatic and inappropriate raving he continues.
> 
> The
> conceit to insist that the TCLUG name be changed is extreme,
> unprofessional, and unforgivable.  I see no implication that GNU is
> ignored
> or disrespected in the name TCLUG: it's just plain and simple naming
> (KISS).  We should not change the name, but could put a
> credit mention of GNU (etc) on the website.
> 
> I
> would not bother to hear him talk after all this.  I would recommend
> that his invitations to speak and to have a drink afterwards
> be revoked, but neither are mine to decide.
> 
> 
> Chuck


From haircut at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 00:33:58 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 00:33:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810042026510.5930@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org> <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810042026510.5930@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1223271238.14463.25.camel@localhost>

On Sat, 2008-10-04 at 20:50 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> I think we can start by discussing whether a name change is a good
> idea in principle.  I think it is.  Then we can talk about what the
> real effects of a name change are:  Updating web page text, web page
> graphics, letterhead(?), schwag, and so on.
> 
> I think tclug.org is fine to keep.  If we vote to change the name, we 
> should just change in web page text both the long name (to Twin Cities
> GNU/Linux User Group) and the abbreviation (to TCGLUG), which should
> be an easy perl regexp kind of thing to do, and then deal with the
> graphical stuff in time.

I doubt I really have a say since I'm such a new TCLUG member, but your
ideas sound quite reasonable, Mike.


Folks, RMS's request may sound petty and ego-driven; not the case. His
motives and intentions are spot on. He's an idealist and a life-long
activist. He seeks to raise awareness of GNU. Sounds like he'd use
anything (including his fame) as leverage to further this cause. I
wouldn't advocate a name change because RMS asked, rather because I
believe changing the name makes a difference.

I'm a Free Software evangelist. As such, I feel it is important to
support, celebrate, and recognize GNU. Free Software, including GNU,
helps protect my and others' political freedoms.

I'm curious if other LUGs have become GLUGs... anyone know? Might be
neat to be the first.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 01:46:59 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 01:46:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200810060147.12077.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Sunday October 5 2008 21:21:25 Robert Wilkinson wrote:
> Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.
>
> Be
> careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
> potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal.
>
> It might be time for the group to split?

I'm sorry if I was unclear initially, I was using the concept of vulgarity in 
another sense. I was trying to express that you were being low-class for 
bandying about personal insults in a forum where that is totally not 
appropriate or productive, about a man who's not here to defend himself. 
That's middle school stuff. Low-class. Vulgar.


-pete, who hasn't expressed an opinion on the naming debate one way or the 
other, just wishes people didn't feel the need to be such jerks on the 
internet.
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From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com  Mon Oct  6 04:07:01 2008
From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 04:07:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <1223271238.14463.25.camel@localhost>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org> <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810042026510.5930@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1223271238.14463.25.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20081006040335.0257d408@pop.mm.com>

Just tell RMS that the G in TCLUG stands for GNU.  Twin Cities Linux 
Under GNU.  Then everyone can enjoy the freedom to drink beer together.



From jima at beer.tclug.org  Mon Oct  6 06:16:16 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 06:16:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <48E9F380.7070407@beer.tclug.org>

Robert Wilkinson wrote:
> A
> gentleman would have graciously accepted the invitation, and politely
> suggested while breaking bread that TCLUG think about changing the
> name.

  As long as we're breaking bread, and not throwing it.


      Jima


From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Mon Oct  6 07:12:43 2008
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:12:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200810060712.44445.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>

By all means, change the name!
As far as I know, Stallman has never been anywhere in Minnesota before, and 
probably never will be again.  Really, try to think of the last time any big 
name in Free Software OR Open Source has been to Minnesota.

If you do decide to, make sure to read the chapter from "Free as in Freedom" 
about how he "behaves" at restaurants.  (online at 
http://oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch05.html)  

Maybe I am sided, though, because I would have supported a name change even if 
Stallman wasn't coming. :)


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Oct  6 07:38:46 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 07:38:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48E9F380.7070407@beer.tclug.org>
References: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<48E9F380.7070407@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <B86D0CA2-B7C9-4693-A3A2-69F4EAEC820E@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 6, 2008, at 6:16 AM, Jima wrote:

> Robert Wilkinson wrote:
>> A
>> gentleman would have graciously accepted the invitation, and politely
>> suggested while breaking bread that TCLUG think about changing the
>> name.
>
>  As long as we're breaking bread, and not throwing it.

A food fight, however, sounds like a lot of fun.  Especially if  
everyone was drinking beer.  !!! Got it, that can be our answer to a  
sword fight with RMS - a food fight!

http://skitch.com/ecrist/a52c/skitched-20081006-073707

sorry for my drawing abilities.
---
Eric Crist






From n0nas at amsat.org  Mon Oct  6 08:52:01 2008
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Doug Reed)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 08:52:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*GLUG
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3679.1223265111.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3679.1223265111.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <48EA1801.3010508@amsat.org>

Here is my two cents from way outside the sidelines:
My impression from reading the original email was that maybe it was 
intended as an old joke, a play on words.
i.e. TCLUG was TCGLUG because you mentioned going out for a beer, as in 
glug, glug, glug, drink up.
But if that was the intention, I'd expect some of you closer to the 
group to have mentioned it.

I was interested to hear he was in town, but I was not intending to go 
to the meeting.
I'm a fan of Linux but not rabid about GNU only. I want to use whatever 
works or whatever I need for the task.
To me that means being able to use a printer or display media files even 
if they don't have GNU drivers.
Now I'll go back to the sidelines and read the mail some more.....

Doug.



From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Mon Oct  6 09:24:27 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:24:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

I am against the name change. If you care why, read on.

GNU has indeed made huge contributions to what's on our machines. As
others have pointed out, so have Qt, GNOME, KDE, X.org, OSS/ALSA, driver
writers, OpenOffice.org, Apache, Eclipse, and many many others under
different licenses.

However culturally, we identify the software we install as "Linux
distributions" and say we run "Linux," even while we are all fully aware
that what actually runs is a large collection of software from many
sources.

IMHO, singling out GNU as *THE* contributor above all others is unhelpful,
too wordy, inconvenient, and confusing.

My two cents,
Chris





From florin at iucha.net  Mon Oct  6 09:42:36 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:42:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 09:24:27AM -0500, Chris Schumann wrote:
> I am against the name change. If you care why, read on.
> 
> GNU has indeed made huge contributions to what's on our machines. As
> others have pointed out, so have
> Qt,
   licensed under GPL

> GNOME,
   mixture of GPL and LGPL

> KDE,
   mixture of GPL and LGPL

> X.org,
   MIT license

> OSS
   BSD?

> /ALSA
   GPL/LGPL

> driver writers
   GPL

> OpenOffice.org,
   LGPL

>Apache, Eclipse, and many many others under
> different licenses.

How many were influenced by, or based on GNU software?

> However culturally, we identify the software we install as "Linux
> distributions" and say we run "Linux," even while we are all fully aware
> that what actually runs is a large collection of software from many
> sources.

Do you ever change your mind about something?

> IMHO, singling out GNU as *THE* contributor above all others is unhelpful,
> too wordy, inconvenient, and confusing.

How is that different from singling out "Linux" as *THE* "thing"?

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Mon Oct  6 10:00:36 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:00:36 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA400@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

Mike Miller wrote:
> I'm more than happy to pay for Stallman's food/drinks, etc. myself but
would accept donations.

I would be honored to contribute.  I also support a name change.  As
time is short, would he meet with us if we told him there is mixed
support and request he present his case personally?



From dan.smith225 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 10:35:18 2008
From: dan.smith225 at gmail.com (Dan Smith)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:35:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
Message-ID: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>

As naturally as it would happen in the MS world, I had my Quad Core System
   running Vista and with the most recent Windows Defender Security Update,
it
   hosed my system.  I was able to save my data, due to keeping on another
   drive seporate from Windows.
   My question to the group is, I am alooking for a nice distro that has
alot
   of packages, is light with the GUI (Not ready for text only..), and
   something that supports the Multiple processor package (Since I'm
assuming
   thats how Unix/Linux will read a quad core Phenom running at 2.5ghz).  I
   currently have 4gb's of ram in the system and it's my goal to keep that
   memory in the box.
   Can someone please help reccomend a strong distro with X86_x64
support?...
   Once I have looked at are Cent OS 5, and OpenSuse 11.
   Thanks,
   Dan
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From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Mon Oct  6 10:36:18 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:36:18 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org><10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>


>> GNU has indeed made huge contributions to what's on our machines. 
> GNOME, KDE, driver, OpenOffice.org

Don't forget about the listserv we're using.  
Mailman is another GNU GPL project from the FSF.




From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Oct  6 10:44:38 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:44:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50A6A496-BBB8-4CDD-A7C5-C1EF636CCE40@secure-computing.net>

Ubuntu seems to be popular with newcomers, and I like it.

HTH


On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Dan Smith wrote:

> As naturally as it would happen in the MS world, I had my Quad Core  
> System
>    running Vista and with the most recent Windows Defender Security  
> Update, it
>    hosed my system.  I was able to save my data, due to keeping on  
> another
>    drive seporate from Windows.
>    My question to the group is, I am alooking for a nice distro that  
> has alot
>    of packages, is light with the GUI (Not ready for text only..), and
>    something that supports the Multiple processor package (Since I'm  
> assuming
>    thats how Unix/Linux will read a quad core Phenom running at  
> 2.5ghz).  I
>    currently have 4gb's of ram in the system and it's my goal to  
> keep that
>    memory in the box.
>    Can someone please help reccomend a strong distro with X86_x64  
> support?...
>    Once I have looked at are Cent OS 5, and OpenSuse 11.
>    Thanks,
>    Dan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

---
Eric Crist






From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 10:53:46 2008
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:53:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f0810060853s5fb28023p84314ecee899de54@mail.gmail.com>

Well, distro choice is always very much a personal matter, so you
should understand that you just tossed a pretty loaded question out
into cyberspace.

That said, personally, I'm very much a fan of the Debian-style way of
doing package management, and both Debian and Ubuntu will do x86_64
just fine.  (I use Ubuntu on 32-bit systems myself - no no hardware
yet.)  At last check Ubuntu was running somewhere between 20,000 and
30,000 packages in the repositories, so that should satisfy your
package availability requirement, and started out as a desktop-focused
distro, which sounds like your kind of use (although it does great
things on the server end now too).

If you prefer the Red Hat way of doing things, OpenSuSE seems to
technically have some pretty good stuff, although I'm one of those a
bit irked by Novell's deal with Microsoft.  Meanwhile, Fedora is also
looking quite nice these days and is worth a look if you go that
route.

-- 
Tony Yarusso
http://tonyyarusso.com/


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Oct  6 10:51:08 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:51:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <156904000810060847v53a4409ft5577d1e7abd70648@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
	<50A6A496-BBB8-4CDD-A7C5-C1EF636CCE40@secure-computing.net>
	<156904000810060847v53a4409ft5577d1e7abd70648@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FD95554F-D33A-4B62-B213-98A590C8424F@secure-computing.net>

Don't have one to test, but I don't know why there would be any  
problems.  Pull out the current version of Ubuntu and try it out.

Note that, unless you're running 64-bit, you won't see your 4 GBs of  
RAM.  Something around 3.2GB or something.

We've noticed lots of problems with 64-bit OSes around the office.   
Actually, the applications for 64-bit OSes.  Either they're not  
updated with the frequency as the 32-bit versions (binary builds) or  
they're flat-out broken on 64-bit.

P.S. Didn't see any reason to leave this off-list, so I'm putting it  
back on.


Eric


On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:47 AM, Dan Smith wrote:

> I've used Ubuntu before and I've used the x64 edition an older 2.4  
> Single Core Proc, and it always gave me a buffer error at boot.
>
> How is Ubuntu, or any Distro's support for Quad Core, Phenoms?
>
> Dan
>
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:44 AM, Eric F Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net 
> > wrote:
> Ubuntu seems to be popular with newcomers, and I like it.
>
> HTH
>
>
>
> On Oct 6, 2008, at 10:35 AM, Dan Smith wrote:
>
> As naturally as it would happen in the MS world, I had my Quad Core  
> System
>   running Vista and with the most recent Windows Defender Security  
> Update, it
>   hosed my system.  I was able to save my data, due to keeping on  
> another
>   drive seporate from Windows.
>   My question to the group is, I am alooking for a nice distro that  
> has alot
>   of packages, is light with the GUI (Not ready for text only..), and
>   something that supports the Multiple processor package (Since I'm  
> assuming
>   thats how Unix/Linux will read a quad core Phenom running at  
> 2.5ghz).  I
>   currently have 4gb's of ram in the system and it's my goal to keep  
> that
>   memory in the box.
>   Can someone please help reccomend a strong distro with X86_x64  
> support?...
>   Once I have looked at are Cent OS 5, and OpenSuse 11.
>   Thanks,
>   Dan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> ---
> Eric Crist
>
>
>
>
>

---
Eric Crist






From stuff at cb1inc.com  Mon Oct  6 10:52:36 2008
From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 10:52:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EA3444.2020201@cb1inc.com>

I like and use Ubuntu on all my desktops and servers.  The reason I use
Ubuntu are because it was the hot Linux distro of the day, the package
system is nice (thx 2 Debian), has a handy dialog for proprietary video
drivers, and supports all sorts of hardware including quad core cpus. 
I'm sure the latest version of CentOS, Fedora, OpenSuse, etc are on par
with Ubuntu.

If time isn't an issue, wait 3-1/2 weeks for Ubuntu 8.10 to come out. 
Otherwise you can try 8.04 and upgrade later.  The upgrade process is
really, really easy.

-Chris


Dan Smith wrote:
> As naturally as it would happen in the MS world, I had my Quad Core System
>    running Vista and with the most recent Windows Defender Security
> Update, it
>    hosed my system.  I was able to save my data, due to keeping on another
>    drive seporate from Windows.
>    My question to the group is, I am alooking for a nice distro that
> has alot
>    of packages, is light with the GUI (Not ready for text only..), and
>    something that supports the Multiple processor package (Since I'm
> assuming
>    thats how Unix/Linux will read a quad core Phenom running at
> 2.5ghz).  I
>    currently have 4gb's of ram in the system and it's my goal to keep that
>    memory in the box.
>    Can someone please help reccomend a strong distro with X86_x64
> support?...
>    Once I have looked at are Cent OS 5, and OpenSuse 11.
>    Thanks,
>    Dan
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

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From andyschmid at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 10:58:24 2008
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 10:58:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a30810060858h663b6df0tf0ccc4921c5b5f2f@mail.gmail.com>

I run Xubuntu (the xfce4 version of Ubuntu).  It has all the software
packages you'll need, a regular release schedule, and is backed by a very
active community.  Restricted packages are also very easy to obtain (such as
the NVIDIA proprietary drivers).

Xfce is a great light weight desktop environment, which I find to be way
faster and less of a resource hog over Kde or Gnome.  My advice would be to
try a bunch of different distributions and desktop environments to see which
YOU like best.

Andy

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Dan Smith <dan.smith225 at gmail.com> wrote:

> As naturally as it would happen in the MS world, I had my Quad Core System
>    running Vista and with the most recent Windows Defender Security Update,
> it
>    hosed my system.  I was able to save my data, due to keeping on another
>    drive seporate from Windows.
>    My question to the group is, I am alooking for a nice distro that has
> alot
>    of packages, is light with the GUI (Not ready for text only..), and
>    something that supports the Multiple processor package (Since I'm
> assuming
>    thats how Unix/Linux will read a quad core Phenom running at 2.5ghz).  I
>    currently have 4gb's of ram in the system and it's my goal to keep that
>    memory in the box.
>    Can someone please help reccomend a strong distro with X86_x64
> support?...
>    Once I have looked at are Cent OS 5, and OpenSuse 11.
>    Thanks,
>    Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From canito at dalan.us  Mon Oct  6 11:04:34 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 11:04:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081006110434.nt17y92b0kgkkwsc@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Dan Smith <dan.smith225 at gmail.com>:

> As naturally as it would happen in the MS world, I had my Quad Core System
>    running Vista and with the most recent Windows Defender Security Update,
> it
>    hosed my system.  I was able to save my data, due to keeping on another
>    drive separate from Windows.
>    My question to the group is, I am alooking for a nice distro that has
> alot
>    of packages, is light with the GUI (Not ready for text only..), and
>    something that supports the Multiple processor package (Since I'm
> assuming
>    thats how Unix/Linux will read a quad core Phenom running at 2.5ghz).  I
>    currently have 4gb's of ram in the system and it's my goal to keep that
>    memory in the box.
>    Can someone please help reccomend a strong distro with X86_x64
> support?...
>    Once I have looked at are Cent OS 5, and OpenSuse 11.
>    Thanks,
>    Dan
>

Hi Dan,

Welcome to the Linux world! I am probably amongst the rookie TCLUG'ers  
(soon to be TC(G)LUG ;-)) and if I may I'd like to recommend a  
particular OS for your system. Gentoo is a source based system,  
meaning you have to compile all your application from source. However,  
the installation does not come with a GUI but the package manager  
"emerge" is very easy to tool to learn and maintain your system, add  
packages (GUI) and so forth.

The September issue of Linux Journal has an article on Gentoo and does  
a fairly simple comparison with Ubuntu and Red Hat and notes their  
differences. The reason I chose Gentoo is because it offers highly  
adaptable/configurable options to any specific supported  
hardware/software and by default it does not install unnecessary  
packages. It would be a real long rant to name all the benefits of  
Gentoo and to be honest, I don't use any other Linux distro for  
personal use except Red Hat based systems for work. I would highly  
recommend reading up the link provided to Linux Journal maybe it will  
help you with your search which for the best distro.

In my case, I have great friends who are lot more Linux smart so my  
intro to GNU/Linux was soften with their help (thus Gentoo is not  
neccesarily beginner friendly). Please note, you will have to register  
online to be able to view the article.

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/10106

Have a great day,

David


----------------------------------------------------------------
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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 11:08:59 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:08:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Smith, Craig A
<Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
>
>>> GNU has indeed made huge contributions to what's on our machines.
>> GNOME, KDE, driver, OpenOffice.org
>
> Don't forget about the listserv we're using.
> Mailman is another GNU GPL project from the FSF.


Yes, but you are also mixing together projects written by the GNU
developers, with software which is simply GPL licensed.

For example, GNU shouldn't be given credit for things like KDE and
open office, simply because they choose a license published by the
FSF/GNU folks.

Quite frankly, most of the software that I interact with on a day to
day basis on my linux system is not GNU software.

Put me down as against the name change.  But I really don't care very
much one way or another.


From sloncho at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 11:07:30 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:07:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810060907tca3bce7s4e9cf5d9eedee9b2@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:35 AM, Dan Smith <dan.smith225 at gmail.com> wrote:
> As naturally as it would happen in the MS world, I had my Quad Core System
>    running Vista and with the most recent Windows Defender Security Update,
> it
>    hosed my system.  I was able to save my data, due to keeping on another
>    drive seporate from Windows.
>    My question to the group is, I am alooking for a nice distro that has
> alot
>    of packages, is light with the GUI (Not ready for text only..), and
>    something that supports the Multiple processor package (Since I'm
> assuming
>    thats how Unix/Linux will read a quad core Phenom running at 2.5ghz).  I
>    currently have 4gb's of ram in the system and it's my goal to keep that
>    memory in the box.
>    Can someone please help reccomend a strong distro with X86_x64
> support?...
>    Once I have looked at are Cent OS 5, and OpenSuse 11.
>    Thanks,
>    Dan

All has their pros and cons. I would recommend Ubuntu for a home
system - read mail, browse Internet, word processing. For a
workstation - joining domains, development, server setup (for dev
purposes), etc. - OpenSuse is the way to go. YaST is very powerful
configuration tool in that regard. That's what I actually do -
opensuse at work and on my main machine at home and my laptop, and
ubuntu for my kids, wife and friends.

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 11:17:14 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:17:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <254fef0f0810060853s5fb28023p84314ecee899de54@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
	<254fef0f0810060853s5fb28023p84314ecee899de54@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810060917j2ff8b226w3e04ded33d4dc3de@mail.gmail.com>

I previously used all Redhat / Fedora / CentOS.

But now I just use Ubuntu.  They seem to put a lot more effort into
maintaining software compatibility, painless upgrades that don't hose
up your system, and have far more up-to-date packages available.  And
if something does go wrong, their support lists are very useful.

But that's just been my experience - and it is very negatively biased
at this point against Fedora, because Fedora 9 was a horrible release.


From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Mon Oct  6 11:22:32 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:22:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3691.1223308655.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3691.1223308655.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <44123.192.28.2.17.1223310152.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

> Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 09:42:36 -0500
> From: Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net>

> On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 09:24:27AM -0500, Chris Schumann wrote:
>>Apache, Eclipse, and many many others under
>> different licenses.
>
> How many were influenced by, or based on GNU software?

Let's assume all of them. I assert that it is irrelevant, but please,
share your thinking.

>> However culturally, we identify the software we install as "Linux
>> distributions" and say we run "Linux," even while we are all fully
>> aware that what actually runs is a large collection of software from
>> many sources.
>
> Do you ever change your mind about something?

Absolutely. Now I expect your logic is that a sea change like this
(getting everyone in the community(/ies) to always use "GNU/Linux" instead
of "Linux" has to start somewhere. I can't be sure. But I'll respond that
it has already started, and doesn't seem to be going anywhere, and
besides, we all know that a Linux distribution (which really is what we
all run), has a lot of software in it, and much is owed to GNU, etc. etc.

>> IMHO, singling out GNU as *THE* contributor above all others is
>> unhelpful, too wordy, inconvenient, and confusing.
>
> How is that different from singling out "Linux" as *THE* "thing"?

It's already been done. It is the de facto nomenclature.

Again, this is just my opinion, and I'm open to an argument as to why a
name change (of this group, of the community, and/or of every
distribution) has value for me, the existing community, and to those
looking to participate.

Chris





From florin at iucha.net  Mon Oct  6 11:24:26 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:24:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081006162426.GD3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 11:08:59AM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Smith, Craig A
> <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> GNU has indeed made huge contributions to what's on our machines.
> >> GNOME, KDE, driver, OpenOffice.org
> >
> > Don't forget about the listserv we're using.
> > Mailman is another GNU GPL project from the FSF.
> 
> Yes, but you are also mixing together projects written by the GNU
> developers, with software which is simply GPL licensed.

"Simply"?  How do you know it was "simply"?  Did they really toss all
licenses into a had an pulled one out?

> For example, GNU shouldn't be given credit for things like KDE and
> open office, simply because they choose a license published by the
> FSF/GNU folks.

It was not "simply" "published", but _created_ by Richard and the FSF.
And their license and manifesto inspired the KDE and Gnome developers
(openoffice.org and java were licensed that way for different reasons).
In that manner, GNU deserves credit for trying and sometimes succeeding
in opening people's eyes and minds.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Oct  6 11:40:29 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:40:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 9:43 AM
>
> How many were influenced by, or based on GNU software?


We really need to credit Danial Webster for his dictionary, various mathematicians (Boole, et al) for logic and so on, as well as
Babbage, von Neumann, et al  if we are trying to be anywhere near complete.  I don't believe Stallman's work is nearly as
significant as von Neumann's or even that of Amazing Grace.

Picking a small set of gurus to credit is unlikely to be a fair or even an illustrative process unless the constutuent enabling
technologies are all listed.  Stallman's work is critically dependent upon von Neumann's in order to run and to have any portability
at all.  Similarly, foundation architecture for software was needed before unix or GNU could exist.  Stallman's work is significant,
but far from being due the lion's share of credit.

The name TCLUG is a KISS result.  Nobody would use or try to pronounce an acronym that had even 20% of the key contributors
included.  The acronym matters most for newbies who do not know of, or care about, the details of evolution because they are
struggling to get started and need a KISS mnemonic to recognize a starting point and locate help or resources.  GNU doesn't run
alone or have an ordered hieararchy, but Linux does run and does have a somewhat ordered hierarchy which can introduce one to GNU
rather quickly down the tree.

But if you really prefer a name like "zz,xm/al,xsdh'a ' xasioqwoqlsknlx'x"   that's OK for you to put on your resume and anoint with
beer or some other yellow fluid...  apple juice?     :-)


The KISS version of the name works for most folks...
    and was what was chosen first,
       and was chosen by folks who knew of Stallman (etc) when they chose.


Chuck



From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 11:50:16 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:50:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810060147.12077.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <386329.833.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<200810060147.12077.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810061150.19958.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Monday October 6 2008 01:46:59 you wrote:
> On Sunday October 5 2008 21:21:25 Robert Wilkinson wrote:
> > Thank you Chuck, I totally agree.
> >
> > Be
> > careful though. One of his faithful worshipers accused me of having a
> > potty mouth because I referred to him as another animal.
> >
> > It might be time for the group to split?
>
> I'm sorry if I was unclear initially, I was using the concept of vulgarity
> in another sense. I was trying to express that you were being low-class for
> bandying about personal insults in a forum where that is totally not
> appropriate or productive, about a man who's not here to defend himself.
> That's middle school stuff. Low-class. Vulgar.
>
>
> -pete, who hasn't expressed an opinion on the naming debate one way or the
> other, just wishes people didn't feel the need to be such jerks on the
> internet.

And please stop sending me rude messages off-list.

-pete, who's not impressed with that either
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From airchia at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 11:51:50 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 11:51:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for Linux.
Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful tweaks to
optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I figure the best
way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in there and take it apart
and play around. But I need something that walks me through it.

Thanks so much!
Nick Scholtes

-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 12:05:36 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:05:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810061205.36554.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Monday October 6 2008 11:08:59 Dan Armbrust wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Smith, Craig A
>
> <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> >>> GNU has indeed made huge contributions to what's on our machines.
> >>
> >> GNOME, KDE, driver, OpenOffice.org
> >
> > Don't forget about the listserv we're using.
> > Mailman is another GNU GPL project from the FSF.
>
> Yes, but you are also mixing together projects written by the GNU
> developers, with software which is simply GPL licensed.
>
> For example, GNU shouldn't be given credit for things like KDE and
> open office, simply because they choose a license published by the
> FSF/GNU folks.

Well, in an extended sense, maybe they should. Were it not for the GNU 
platform there wouldn't be KDE (or Linux, for that matter).

-pete, who's still on the fence about the name change, just trying to play 
devil's advocate
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Oct  6 12:17:20 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:17:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810061205.36554.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810061205.36554.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25EA7E1C-B93C-40DC-8FFC-1D7BB1E6BC83@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 6, 2008, at 12:05 PM, p.daniels wrote:

> On Monday October 6 2008 11:08:59 Dan Armbrust wrote:
> > On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:36 AM, Smith, Craig A
> >
> > <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> > >>> GNU has indeed made huge contributions to what's on our  
> machines.
> > >>
> > >> GNOME, KDE, driver, OpenOffice.org
> > >
> > > Don't forget about the listserv we're using.
> > > Mailman is another GNU GPL project from the FSF.
> >
> > Yes, but you are also mixing together projects written by the GNU
> > developers, with software which is simply GPL licensed.
> >
> > For example, GNU shouldn't be given credit for things like KDE and
> > open office, simply because they choose a license published by the
> > FSF/GNU folks.
>

> Well, in an extended sense, maybe they should. Were it not for the  
> GNU platform there wouldn't be KDE (or Linux, for that matter).
> -pete, who's still on the fence about the name change, just trying  
> to play devil's advocate

Not to pick a nit, here, but Linux exists entirely without GNU.  A  
full linux-based OS is hard to come by without it, however.

---
Eric Crist






From florin at iucha.net  Mon Oct  6 12:42:22 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:42:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <25EA7E1C-B93C-40DC-8FFC-1D7BB1E6BC83@secure-computing.net>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810061205.36554.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<25EA7E1C-B93C-40DC-8FFC-1D7BB1E6BC83@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <20081006174222.GG3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 12:17:20PM -0500, Eric F Crist wrote:
> > > For example, GNU shouldn't be given credit for things like KDE and
> > > open office, simply because they choose a license published by the
> > > FSF/GNU folks.
> >
> 
> > Well, in an extended sense, maybe they should. Were it not for the  
> > GNU platform there wouldn't be KDE (or Linux, for that matter).
> > -pete, who's still on the fence about the name change, just trying  
> > to play devil's advocate
> 
> Not to pick a nit, here, but Linux exists entirely without GNU.  A  
> full linux-based OS is hard to come by without it, however.

I call your nit and raise two:

   Linux has 17 years now.  For its first 14, the only compiler that
   could compile it was GNU C compiler.


   "Making Linux GPL'd was definitely the best thing I ever did."
      -- Linus Torvalds (http://www.ddj.com/architect/184412902)


florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From rms at gnu.org  Mon Oct  6 13:30:52 2008
From: rms at gnu.org (Richard M. Stallman)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:30:52 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEPICLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEPICLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1Kmur6-00064u-Fg@fencepost.gnu.org>

It is a frequent pattern that those who mistakenly call the GNU
"Linux" get indignant when asked to correct this mistake.
They have often constructed a false picture of the system's history
and deny the truth (see http://www.gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html).



From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  6 14:16:20 2008
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 12:16:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
Message-ID: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I apologize to anyone who was offended by my comment about RMS being a jackass (an independant and stubborn animal).  I am however disgusted and offended by his attempt at blackmail; an indefensible action.

p.daniels is  correct that this forum is not the appropriate place for name calling.  That is why I chose to continue discussion of my comment (and his personal attack against me), off-line.  I believe that this forum is not the appropriate place for personal conflict.  It seems that p.daniels does not agree.

This is a personal issue, an issue that he has now said should NOT be off-line.  If anyone questions whether this is a personal issue, I offer as evidence the following comments that did NOT invoke a personal attack from him:  "...Stallman is a conceited dinosaur...", "The conceit to insist that the TCLUG name be changed is extreme, unprofessional, and unforgivable.", "[His] Pettiness is
unattractive.", and "...you can go form the TC primadonnas Group.
You certainly match Richard Stallman in the ego department, but I haven't
seen anything to convince me that you are anywhere close to his abilities
and contribution to society.  As such, put the stones back in the pile;
you can also turn in the fake beards...".  I don't know where that last one came from, as I have never claimed  greatness in ANYTHING!

And then there is the comment about kissing my mother with "that mouth."  This comment caused me great sadness, as my mother passed away three weeks ago this coming Wednesday.  Of course he had no way of knowing that, but after informing him off-line, he refuses to show any regret or compassion. What a guy!

I guess that I am not allowed to have an opinion unless it agrees with his, and he has declared that the 1st amendment to the US Constitution only applies to those who agree with him.  And he says that I have low class!

I promise that I will no longer air personal laundry in this forum. No matter what p.daniels says.  I do reserve the right to have an opinion and to speak it!

God bless Richard Stallman, and thank you Richard for your tremendous contributions. Please drop the attitude though. You and your followers are not gods, not even royalty, and in a small number of cases, NOT nice people!



From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 14:33:05 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:33:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>

Honestly, I find that fact that this is even being discussed this way is
bizarre and unproductive. If anything, a decision for a name change should
open us to a variety of options, and not merely the 2 (current and
proposed).

Frankly I would prefer dropping both GNU and Linux if it would mean less
argument over semantics, but I know it would only created more confusion and
argument.

On an even plane, I am open to name changes, but the avenue and approach
this has taken is borderline offensive, and rather than risk alienating
those on the list and the group over such a petty issue, I say meet with
Stallman if you wish, under whatever banner you so choose.

But let's then sit down and discuss name proposals if people really would
like a name change. Personally, while I don't find TC-LUG elegant, it IS
clear and it was how I found the list so quickly upon moving here.

Peace

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Robert Wilkinson <r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com>wrote:

> I apologize to anyone who was offended by my comment about RMS being a
> jackass (an independant and stubborn animal).  I am however disgusted and
> offended by his attempt at blackmail; an indefensible action.
>
> p.daniels is  correct that this forum is not the appropriate place for name
> calling.  That is why I chose to continue discussion of my comment (and his
> personal attack against me), off-line.  I believe that this forum is not the
> appropriate place for personal conflict.  It seems that p.daniels does not
> agree.
>
> This is a personal issue, an issue that he has now said should NOT be
> off-line.  If anyone questions whether this is a personal issue, I offer as
> evidence the following comments that did NOT invoke a personal attack from
> him:  "...Stallman is a conceited dinosaur...", "The conceit to insist that
> the TCLUG name be changed is extreme, unprofessional, and unforgivable.",
> "[His] Pettiness is
> unattractive.", and "...you can go form the TC primadonnas Group.
> You certainly match Richard Stallman in the ego department, but I haven't
> seen anything to convince me that you are anywhere close to his abilities
> and contribution to society.  As such, put the stones back in the pile;
> you can also turn in the fake beards...".  I don't know where that last one
> came from, as I have never claimed  greatness in ANYTHING!
>
> And then there is the comment about kissing my mother with "that mouth."
>  This comment caused me great sadness, as my mother passed away three weeks
> ago this coming Wednesday.  Of course he had no way of knowing that, but
> after informing him off-line, he refuses to show any regret or compassion.
> What a guy!
>
> I guess that I am not allowed to have an opinion unless it agrees with his,
> and he has declared that the 1st amendment to the US Constitution only
> applies to those who agree with him.  And he says that I have low class!
>
> I promise that I will no longer air personal laundry in this forum. No
> matter what p.daniels says.  I do reserve the right to have an opinion and
> to speak it!
>
> God bless Richard Stallman, and thank you Richard for your tremendous
> contributions. Please drop the attitude though. You and your followers are
> not gods, not even royalty, and in a small number of cases, NOT nice people!
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From sloncho at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 14:47:16 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 14:47:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> wrote:
> Honestly, I find that fact that this is even being discussed this way is
> bizarre and unproductive. If anything, a decision for a name change should
> open us to a variety of options, and not merely the 2 (current and
> proposed).
> <snip>
> On an even plane, I am open to name changes, but the avenue and approach
> this has taken is borderline offensive, and rather than risk alienating
> those on the list and the group over such a petty issue, I say meet with
> Stallman if you wish, under whatever banner you so choose.
>
> But let's then sit down and discuss name proposals if people really would
> like a name change. Personally, while I don't find TC-LUG elegant, it IS
> clear and it was how I found the list so quickly upon moving here.
>
> Peace
>

Yes, lets go for peace. I guess RMS achieved what he wanted - he
provoked a discussion - which is good thing.

Now, lets be practical - lets send RMS a response (Mike, if you and
others agree), which states that discussion of name changing in
underway, but a little bit of more help from the man (RMS) to convince
more members, is more than welcome, so lets meet and let him convince
the "unbelievers". :)

This should be acceptable for any reasonable person.

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From haircut at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 14:56:01 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 14:56:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OpenSSL licensing (was: Richard Stallman Talking on
	UofM Campus 21	October)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291715570.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGENBCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291208100.949@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E126F1.8000104@tcbug.org>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0809291715570.8803@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1223322961.4542.16.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2008-09-29 at 17:23 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > > Is SSL non-free?  I didn't know that.
> >
> > Yes, the FSF has been very aggressive about protecting the phrase Free 
> > Software.  They define it as software having GPL compatable licensing. 
> > Which OpenSSL (really the only implimentation of SSL that matters) does 
> > not have.
> 
> Interesting.  I found some info here:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSL#Licensing
> 
> It is a fairly trivial deviation from freeness, but it is a deviation.
> Stallman probably pursues it because he won't use non-free and he
> wants them to change the license.  It is good code and he could use
> it!

For clarification on the OpenSSL license, please see below.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Richard M. Stallman <rms at gnu.org>
Date: Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: tea in Minneapolis
To: Adam Monsen <haircut at gmail.com>


> This post sums up the "SSL is not free" discussion:
> http://tinyurl.com/4gyszm

I decided not to fetch that, because I think you've shown what the
issue is.

> The post refers to this wikipedia article section stating
> that OpenSSL is not GPL-compatible:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSL#Licensing

There is a widespread misconception that "free" means "licensed under
the GNU GPL", but that is not so.  OpenSSL's license is a free license,
according to the definition
(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html).

It is true that the OpenSSL license is incompatible with the GNU GPL,
but that doesn't make it unethical.  See the list of licenses in
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html for more info.

Could you please post this where the people who had that discussion
will see it?

---------- End Forwarded message ----------

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 15:00:27 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 15:00:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810061500.29145.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Monday October 6 2008 14:47:16 Sunny wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Jordan Peacock 
<hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Honestly, I find that fact that this is even being discussed this way is
> > bizarre and unproductive. If anything, a decision for a name change
> > should open us to a variety of options, and not merely the 2 (current and
> > proposed).
> > <snip>
> > On an even plane, I am open to name changes, but the avenue and approach
> > this has taken is borderline offensive, and rather than risk alienating
> > those on the list and the group over such a petty issue, I say meet with
> > Stallman if you wish, under whatever banner you so choose.
> >
> > But let's then sit down and discuss name proposals if people really would
> > like a name change. Personally, while I don't find TC-LUG elegant, it IS
> > clear and it was how I found the list so quickly upon moving here.
> >
> > Peace
>
> Yes, lets go for peace. I guess RMS achieved what he wanted - he
> provoked a discussion - which is good thing.
>
> Now, lets be practical - lets send RMS a response (Mike, if you and
> others agree), which states that discussion of name changing in
> underway, but a little bit of more help from the man (RMS) to convince
> more members, is more than welcome, so lets meet and let him convince
> the "unbelievers". :)
>
> This should be acceptable for any reasonable person.
>
> Cheers

I could get behind this proposal.

-pete
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From haircut at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 15:06:24 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 15:06:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20081006040335.0257d408@pop.mm.com>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810031417030.6029@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48E802F2.4020508@freeshell.org> <48E80721.2030402@fngi.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810042026510.5930@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1223271238.14463.25.camel@localhost>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20081006040335.0257d408@pop.mm.com>
Message-ID: <1223323584.4542.21.camel@localhost>

On Mon, 2008-10-06 at 04:07 -0500, Dean.Benjamin at mm.com wrote:
> Just tell RMS that the G in TCLUG stands for GNU.  Twin Cities Linux 
> Under GNU.  Then everyone can enjoy the freedom to drink beer
> together.

I like it! +1.

I did a quick Web search for "GNU/Linux user group" and found about .6
million results, so we definitely wouldn't be the first.

Also see here: http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-user-groups.html
If we decide we do want to change the name, we can ask the FSF for help
getting a domain.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Mon Oct  6 19:01:08 2008
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 19:01:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200810061901.08394.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>

> Picking a small set of gurus to credit is unlikely to be a fair or even an
> illustrative process unless the constutuent enabling technologies are all
> listed.  Stallman's work is critically dependent upon von Neumann's in
> order to run and to have any portability at all.  Similarly, foundation
> architecture for software was needed before unix or GNU could exist. 
> Stallman's work is significant, but far from being due the lion's share of
> credit.
Without GNU, there would be no Linux.  Without Linux, we would all be using 
the GNU operating system (with a Hurd/Mach as the kernel).  It seems to me 
that, if we call the system by only one name, it should be GNU.  However, we 
need to give Linux some credit.  Linus Torvalds was a genius social engineer.  
He knew how to get people to work on his software for him.  He told them all 
they were working on "Linux".  Of course, since GNU was already pretty well 
established among advanced users, the developers would say "Hey, I'm working 
on writing a new application called 'Linux'", in the same way someone today 
would say "I'm working on KDE".  They took GNU for granted.  After a while, 
they just started lazily calling the whole OS Linux, and the name stuck.  
It's sort of reminds me of the people who will say they are running the 
Ubuntu Operating System...
>
> The name TCLUG is a KISS result.  Nobody would use or try to pronounce an
> acronym that had even 20% of the key contributors included.  The acronym
> matters most for newbies who do not know of, or care about, the details of
> evolution because they are struggling to get started and need a KISS
> mnemonic to recognize a starting point and locate help or resources.  GNU
> doesn't run alone or have an ordered hieararchy, but Linux does run and
> does have a somewhat ordered hierarchy which can introduce one to GNU
> rather quickly down the tree.
Yup.  You're absolutely right.  Let's go with KISS.  We'll be the TC-GUG from 
now on.  I can assure you that "GUG" will probably not even be comprehensible 
to most GNU fans, but the KISS philosophy is always better.  Hey, let's not 
stop there!  Lets change it from TC-GUG to TC-GG.  It should be obvious that 
we actually use the software our group is promoting; we don't have to 
explicitly say that we are users.  We may even go as far as saying T-GG by 
making "Twin Cities" into "Twincities".

P.S. - With Hurd and Mach, GNU does run alone.  Linux does not.


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Oct  6 20:24:40 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 20:24:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810061901.08394.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810061901.08394.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
Message-ID: <BB5B67E1-DB11-4BC0-A1A8-B115C34C53F8@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 6, 2008, at 7:01 PM, Max Shinn wrote:

> P.S. - With Hurd and Mach, GNU does run alone.  Linux does not.


*Actually*, Linux does run alone.  You just can't do anything with  
what *is* running.  Might as well use FreeBSD.  You don't have a Linux  
kernel and you don't have to deal with the GNU tools.

Note: I know there are some tools included with FreeBSD which are  
GNU.  The system would still run without them.
---
Eric Crist






From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct  6 21:50:19 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:50:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG - Distro Reccomendation
In-Reply-To: <FD95554F-D33A-4B62-B213-98A590C8424F@secure-computing.net>
References: <156904000810060835tc1d8d75k4226a875c3ab3a15@mail.gmail.com>
	<50A6A496-BBB8-4CDD-A7C5-C1EF636CCE40@secure-computing.net>
	<156904000810060847v53a4409ft5577d1e7abd70648@mail.gmail.com>
	<FD95554F-D33A-4B62-B213-98A590C8424F@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062105180.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Eric F Crist wrote:

> Don't have one to test, but I don't know why there would be any 
> problems.  Pull out the current version of Ubuntu and try it out.
>
> Note that, unless you're running 64-bit, you won't see your 4 GBs of 
> RAM.  Something around 3.2GB or something.

See the information below about the "32 bit memory hole fix" BIOS option.

I also recommend Ubuntu.  It is good, easy, and so many people use it that 
it should be easier to get help with it than with many of the others.

Mike


Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2008 21:47:39 -0500
From: Jack Smith
To: MLUG Members <members at mlug.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: [MLUG] 64-bit Linux distros

On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 15:54 -0500, Rick Buford wrote:

> If you have a PCI-E slot on this board, it was my understanding that the 
> "missing" 3/4Gb is taken up by the PCI-E bus...not an OS issue, but a 
> PCI-E one. At least that was Dell's explanation.
> 
> We ran into this at work a year or so ago when we got our workstations 
> with PCI-E slots.
> 
> Rick
> 
> On Wed, 2008-10-01 at 14:36 -0500, Robert Citek wrote:
> 
>> Not likely an issue in Mike's case, but in other cases, watch out for 
>> the hardware manufacturers that cripple the MoBo.  Case in point, I've 
>> got a Lenovo ThinkCenter with dual 3 GHz Intel P4 CPUs, both 64-bit 
>> capable.  Unfortunately, despite maxing out at 4 GB of RAM, the OS can 
>> only use 3 GB.  The MoBo reserves (disables?) the other 1 GB.


You guys have part of the answer. A 32-bit OS normally has a 4 GB
address space, which you guys said. That address space contains the
addresses for both data in RAM as well as the addressing space for *any*
I/O devices in the computer, such as the PCIe slots in your Dell. This
I/O addressing space is mapped to the very top of the entire space, say
from 3.3 GB to 4.0 GB. You can only have one physical location mapped to
each address location, so when you have 4 GB RAM, the OS only sees the
locations below ~3.3 GB as address spaces in RAM and everything above it
as I/O address space. That is why you "lose RAM" while running a 32-bit
OS with 4 GB RAM but you see all of your RAM if you have 3 GB or less as
the I/O address space is located "higher" than your RAM. The space is
still used; you just do not see it as it does not overlap your RAM. Your
older computers have this same issue but you just never put enough RAM
in them to see it. Note that if you ran more than 4 GB RAM on a standard
32-bit OS, you still only see the ~3.3 GB amount as the OS cannot see
anything beyond 4.00 GB- it just ignores the extra RAM. It's just like
running 1 MB RAM on an 8086- the processor could only see 1 MB address
space but everything from 640 K on up was address space. A 64-bit OS has
a much larger address space and thus you can address all 4 GB of RAM and
then some and not overlap your I/O address space. The I/O address space
is still there, it's just typically located at 32 PB (52 bits) on x86_64
systems and it doesn't even come close to overlapping the RAM.

Note that this I/O address space starting and ending location (but not
the size) is sometimes adjustable. Some motherboards by default have the
BIOS map the I/O address range from ~3.3 to 4.0 GB. This will result in
you "missing" about 700 MB of RAM if you have 4 or more GB installed and
are running a 64-bit OS. The fix for this is to tell the BIOS to either
not map the I/O address space itself and let the OS handle it or to
force the BIOS to map it to the top of the x86_64 address space by
enabling the so-called "32 bit memory hole fix" BIOS option.

This paper (http://techfiles.de/dmelanchthon/files/memory_hole.pdf ) has
a further explanation of the issue.

--Jack


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct  6 21:54:01 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 21:54:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062150450.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote:

> I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for Linux. 
> Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful tweaks to 
> optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I figure the 
> best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in there and take 
> it apart and play around. But I need something that walks me through it.


Not sure, but there are a few different things to get into configuring. 
One would be your desktop experience -- depends on what you are using: 
Gnome, KDE, etc.  Of course choosing a desktop and window manager is 
another aspect of configuration.

Another area is the shell.  Bash is the usual default.  There are a bunch 
of files that configure the shell.  You can create aliases and stuff like 
that.

After that many programs have their "recipe" files or config files and you 
will want to do something with those, e.g., ~/.emacs

Mike


From airchia at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 22:05:11 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 22:05:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <6a470a5f0810061550s5cc97e45j4ee9d8fca0e70d3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
	<6a470a5f0810061550s5cc97e45j4ee9d8fca0e70d3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810062005mfffeb20lea4d48bff453ed81@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks, Harv,

I'm looking those up now. Look pretty good.
Nick


On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 5:50 PM, Harv Nelson <ai9nl at arrl.net> wrote:

> hi nick, two that I have used,
>
> 1. *KNOPPIX HACKS* BY kyle rankin
> publishrd by OReilly  ISBN 0-598-00787-6
>
> 2. *linux desktop hacks* also published by oreilly
> by nicholas petreley&jono bacon
> isbn  0-596-00911-9
> cost about $25.00 each
> amazon probably has them, too.
>
> harv
>
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 4:51 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for Linux.
>> Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful tweaks to
>> optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I figure the best
>> way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in there and take it apart
>> and play around. But I need something that walks me through it.
>>
>> Thanks so much!
>> Nick Scholtes
>>
>> --
>> Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>


-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From airchia at gmail.com  Mon Oct  6 22:09:13 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2008 22:09:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062150450.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062150450.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810062009v31a25701y9fbf28b0bafddac7@mail.gmail.com>

True. I went to Barnes and Noble to peruse and get a better idea of what I
need. What I want is something that walks you through the CLI. Most of the
books I found were the "bibles" that were $50 and told you basics like how
to play music in KDE. I don't need that. I want to get into the nuts and
bolts. But a "nuts and bolts" guide aimed more at a noob.

Another example would be how to get in a tweak the performance of the
kernel, desktops, and turn off all un-needed processes.

Thanks,
Nick


On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>wrote:

> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for Linux.
> > Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful tweaks to
> > optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I figure the
> > best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in there and take
> > it apart and play around. But I need something that walks me through it.
>
>
> Not sure, but there are a few different things to get into configuring.
> One would be your desktop experience -- depends on what you are using:
> Gnome, KDE, etc.  Of course choosing a desktop and window manager is
> another aspect of configuration.
>
> Another area is the shell.  Bash is the usual default.  There are a bunch
> of files that configure the shell.  You can create aliases and stuff like
> that.
>
> After that many programs have their "recipe" files or config files and you
> will want to do something with those, e.g., ~/.emacs
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From stuff at cb1inc.com  Mon Oct  6 22:24:32 2008
From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber)
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 22:24:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EAD670.1000203@cb1inc.com>

I found the book Ubuntu Linux Toolbox to be useful:

http://www.amazon.com/Ubuntu-Linux-Toolbox-Commands-Debian/dp/0470082933

Amazon is selling it for a whopping $16.

The also make a version of the book for Fedora and Suse.  It mostly
covers the command line, but talks about package management, backups,
networking, and more.

-Chris



Nick Scholtes wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for
> Linux. Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful
> tweaks to optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I
> figure the best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in
> there and take it apart and play around. But I need something that
> walks me through it.
>
> Thanks so much!
> Nick Scholtes
>
> -- 
> Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 01:24:42 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:24:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062234540.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008, Robert Wilkinson wrote:

> I claim no greatness! I take nothing away from what Stallman has 
> contributed, and I even agree with some of his philosophy.
>
> I reject his discourteous, rude, egotistical, arrogant, selfish, self 
> serving, attitudes.
>
> A gentleman would have graciously accepted the invitation, and politely 
> suggested while breaking bread that TCLUG think about changing the name.
>
> I don't give a rats behind what the name is, it's the way he went about 
> it.  He has a lot of class: ALL LOW.
>
> BTW:  I also reject the sometimes irrational and venomous ramblings of 
> some of his closed minded, hateful, devoted followers.


I thought Stallman's letters to me were very friendly and courteous.  All 
of the venomous words on this list seem to be coming from people who don't 
like Stallman for some reason.  Many of the comments strike me as childish 
and unjustified.

Stallman's reason for wanting to promote the term "GNU/Linux" seem pretty 
obvious:  He has dedicated his life to promoting free software and adding 
the "GNU" to form GNU/Linux helps to attract attention to his cause.  I 
don't think it has anything to do with ego.  He called it GNU, not 
Richanix or Stallnix.  I suppose it was cute and not egotistical for Linus 
to have named his contribution Linux.  Stallman did come up with the name 
"POSIX" (pronounced like "positive") for the IEEE collection of standards 
that Linux adheres to.

I like the term GNU/Linux for two reasons.  First, it draws attention to 
the importance of the free software concept in the development of the 
system and in the recent history (and hopefully the future) of computing:

http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html#whycare

    Calling the system GNU/Linux recognizes the role that our idealism
    played in building our community, and helps the public recognize the
    practical importance of these ideals.

Second, use of GNU/Linux recognizes the central importance of the GNU 
project in the developmental history of the Linux kernel.  In Linus 
Torvalds' first announcement in August 1991, he wrote:

    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/b813d52cbc5a044b

    I'm doing a (free) operating system (just a hobby, won't be big and
    professional like gnu) for 386(486) AT clones. ... I've currently
    ported bash(1.08) and gcc(1.40), and things seem to work.  This implies
    that I'll get something practical within a few months.

Of course, the bash shell and gcc compiler are parts of the GNU system. 
As Torvalds put it in the 0.01 release of the kernel (September 1991):

    http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.01

    Sadly, a kernel by itself gets you nowhere. To get a working system you
    need a shell, compilers, a library etc. These are separate parts and
    may be under a stricter (or even looser) copyright. Most of the tools
    used with linux are GNU software and are under the GNU copyleft. These
    tools aren't in the distribution - ask me (or GNU) for more info.

So Torvalds was saying that he had "gotten nowhere" without GNU.  He also 
wrote (31 Jan 1992) that the kernel was a small part of the whole system:

    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.os.minix/msg/ac1b04eb0e09c03e?pli=1

    As has been noted (not only by me), the linux kernel is a miniscule
    part of a complete system: Full sources for linux currently runs to
    about 200kB compressed - full sources to a somewhat complete
    developement system is at least 10MB compressed (and easily much,
    much more).

With version 0.12 (5 Jan 1991), Torvalds switched his license to the GPL:

http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.12


The free software movement is playing an important role in my life and I 
think it is changing the world in postive ways.  I would like to see our 
group use "GNU/Linux" instead of simply "Linux" because doing so would 
help to promote this movement.  It isn't about Richard Stallman.  I also 
don't believe in a universal requirement to always call the system 
GNU/Linux (pronounced GNU-slash-linux, by the way), nor do I think we 
should feel that we *must* do it -- I just think it's a good idea.

Let's see if most members agree with me on this point.  If we find a 
reason to create a new group, we might do that.  It would probably help to 
reduce conflict and resulting boorish comments.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 01:46:16 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:46:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070142400.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 09:24:27AM -0500, Chris Schumann wrote:
>
>> IMHO, singling out GNU as *THE* contributor above all others is 
>> unhelpful, too wordy, inconvenient, and confusing.
>
> How is that different from singling out "Linux" as *THE* "thing"?

Right.  In addition to Florin's nice list of GPL-compatible licenses and 
software, I would add that Linux is also distributed under the GPL.

But Chris, GNU *is* the contributor above all others.  It's the original 
source for the ideas that led to the excellent system we have today.

Mik


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 01:50:41 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:50:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070146500.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Dan Armbrust wrote:

> Yes, but you are also mixing together projects written by the GNU 
> developers, with software which is simply GPL licensed.
>
> For example, GNU shouldn't be given credit for things like KDE and open 
> office, simply because they choose a license published by the FSF/GNU 
> folks.

By using "GNU/Linux" in the name of our group, we are not making any 
claims.  GNU doesn't get credit for KDE, but if it weren't for Stallman, 
would we have KDE?  I don't know, but I don't think so.  Stallman planted 
a seed and it has grown into a vast population of plants, but only with 
the dedicated effort of a large number of workers.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 01:52:34 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 01:52:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081006162426.GD3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<10973.192.28.2.17.1223303067.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<20081006144235.GB3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081006162426.GD3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070151130.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 11:08:59AM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
>
>> For example, GNU shouldn't be given credit for things like KDE and open 
>> office, simply because they choose a license published by the FSF/GNU 
>> folks.
>
> It was not "simply" "published", but _created_ by Richard and the FSF. 
> And their license and manifesto inspired the KDE and Gnome developers 
> (openoffice.org and java were licensed that way for different reasons). 
> In that manner, GNU deserves credit for trying and sometimes succeeding 
> in opening people's eyes and minds.


Well put, Florin.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 02:01:32 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 02:01:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:

> The KISS version of the name works for most folks...
>    and was what was chosen first,
>       and was chosen by folks who knew of Stallman (etc) when they chose.

Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  Then Linus 
wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was 
"nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes the 
Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?

The fact that many people call it Linux doesn't imply that we shouldn't 
call it GNU/Linux.  The name serves a useful purpose by promoting an 
ideal.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 02:08:12 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 02:08:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <25EA7E1C-B93C-40DC-8FFC-1D7BB1E6BC83@secure-computing.net>
References: <mailman.3689.1223301596.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E6017EA4B8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<82f04dc40810060908u541d0a3dvb252bfed9df192b0@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810061205.36554.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<25EA7E1C-B93C-40DC-8FFC-1D7BB1E6BC83@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070202360.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Eric F Crist wrote:

> On Oct 6, 2008, at 12:05 PM, p.daniels wrote:
>
>> Well, in an extended sense, maybe they should. Were it not for the GNU 
>> platform there wouldn't be KDE (or Linux, for that matter). -pete, 
>> who's still on the fence about the name change, just trying to play 
>> devil's advocate
>
> Not to pick a nit, here, but Linux exists entirely without GNU.  A full 
> linux-based OS is hard to come by without it, however.


What does it mean to say that Linux exists without GNU?  GNU was needed to 
make the Linux kernel useful, so Linux might easily not have existed 
without GNU.  Linux has been compiled using GCC for years now.

I did read about an OS that combined Berkeley system tools with the Linux 
kernel -- no GNU.  So it can be done, but probably none of us do that.j

Mike


From verigoth at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 02:27:47 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 02:27:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:01 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>> The KISS version of the name works for most folks...
>>    and was what was chosen first,
>>       and was chosen by folks who knew of Stallman (etc) when they chose.
>
> Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  Then Linus
> wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was
> "nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes the
> Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?
>
> The fact that many people call it Linux doesn't imply that we shouldn't
> call it GNU/Linux.  The name serves a useful purpose by promoting an
> ideal.

I disagree.  You can lobby for the name change all you want, but I do
not think the de facto name will ever be GNU/Linux.  It's like when
saying "Merry Christmas" was supposed to be replaced with "Happy
Holidays" to acknowledge non-Christian holidays as well.  Some people
changed, but most still say "Merry Christmas".  For whatever reason,
the Linux kernel and the GNU toolset is collectively referred to as
simply Linux.  It is far too late in the game to expect everybody to
change (but give it a shot if you like).


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 02:34:11 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 02:34:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070220330.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Sunny wrote:

> Yes, lets go for peace. I guess RMS achieved what he wanted - he 
> provoked a discussion - which is good thing.

I think you are right about that.


> Now, lets be practical - lets send RMS a response (Mike, if you and 
> others agree), which states that discussion of name changing in 
> underway, but a little bit of more help from the man (RMS) to convince 
> more members, is more than welcome, so lets meet and let him convince 
> the "unbelievers". :)
>
> This should be acceptable for any reasonable person.

I told him the other day that we were discussing it.  He mentioned that he 
does not like beer, so he won't be drinking any beer, but I understand 
from other sources that he *really* likes food, so he'll probably want to 
eat some.  His last message read as follows:

    If the group does change its name, I would be glad to get together with
    the group some time while I am there.  That will be Oct 19 late
    afternoon thru Oct 22 noonish.

    And please write to user-groups at gnu.org to get listed in our page of
    GNU/Linux user groups.

We'll see what happens with the schedule.  I thought after his talk would 
be the best time.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 02:39:44 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 02:39:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070235170.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Rob Bayerl wrote:


> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:01 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> 
> wrote:
>
>> The fact that many people call it Linux doesn't imply that we shouldn't 
>> call it GNU/Linux.  The name serves a useful purpose by promoting an 
>> ideal.
>
> I disagree.  You can lobby for the name change all you want, but I do 
> not think the de facto name will ever be GNU/Linux.

But I don't care what the defacto name becomes over time.  That isn't the 
point of using GNU/Linux today -- it's not to convert others to use the 
same name.  The idea is to promote the goals of the free software 
movement.  People might ask "why do you call it *GNU*/Linux," and then 
you'll tell them.  That's the point.

Mike


From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 04:31:14 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 04:31:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEAGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:02 AM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
>
>
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > The KISS version of the name works for most folks...
> >    and was what was chosen first,
> >       and was chosen by folks who knew of Stallman (etc) when they chose.
>
> Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  Then Linus
> wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was
> "nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes the
> Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?
>
> The fact that many people call it Linux doesn't imply that we shouldn't
> call it GNU/Linux.  The name serves a useful purpose by promoting an
> ideal.
>
> Mike


KISS.. otherwise we must give credit to von Neumann, and Amazing Grace (et al) whose contributions made GNU possible and are
essential today for any instance or artifact of GNU or Linux that runs.  Whenever we give a name, we shorten the full etymology and
genealogy for various reasons that are best approximated as KISS.  Clarify in a website in a history paragraph so it's duly noted,
but don't expect everyone to change speech or writing in everyday usage.  Life and language are full of examples of KISS terminology
or nicknames, etc.  How about Neumann-GNU-Linux...  to remember and give credit to the top ten or twenty whose works are about
equally essential ?


Chuck




From tclug at beitsahour.net  Tue Oct  7 07:17:06 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 07:17:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810061901.08394.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810061901.08394.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>
Message-ID: <48EB5342.9050109@beitsahour.net>

Max Shinn wrote:
>> Picking a small set of gurus to credit is unlikely to be a fair or even an
>> illustrative process unless the constutuent enabling technologies are all
>> listed.  Stallman's work is critically dependent upon von Neumann's in
>> order to run and to have any portability at all.  Similarly, foundation
>> architecture for software was needed before unix or GNU could exist. 
>> Stallman's work is significant, but far from being due the lion's share of
>> credit.
> Without GNU, there would be no Linux.  Without Linux, we would all be using 
> the GNU operating system (with a Hurd/Mach as the kernel).  It seems to me 
> that, if we call the system by only one name, it should be GNU.  However, we 
> need to give Linux some credit.  Linus Torvalds was a genius social engineer.  
> He knew how to get people to work on his software for him.  He told them all 
> they were working on "Linux".  Of course, since GNU was already pretty well 
> established among advanced users, the developers would say "Hey, I'm working 
> on writing a new application called 'Linux'", in the same way someone today 
> would say "I'm working on KDE".  They took GNU for granted.  After a while, 
> they just started lazily calling the whole OS Linux, and the name stuck.  
> It's sort of reminds me of the people who will say they are running the 
> Ubuntu Operating System...

Now you are attributing to malice what I believe cannot. I doubt  Linus
woke up one day in early 1992 and said, "hey, I am going to take this
thing I am writing and use it to subvert the FSF and take over GNU." It
did not even start out to be an operating system, but apparently feature
creep set in. :)   he even said in his original announcement that he was
not making anything as fancy as GNU, it would seem that his original
intent was to write yet another unix reimplementation from scratch.

Today we have Redhat, Ubuntu, SuSE and there are always discussions on
which distro came first. I put forward that "Linux" is the first
distribution, because as feature creep set in and work on the kernel
took ever more time(just ask GNU how hard it is to produce a kernel)
Linus changed his mind and instead of writing the whole thing he took
his kernel and combined it with the GNU utilities, slapped on a name and
released it as Linux(or freax if you believe that story ;))

so there you have it, Linux is just a very early GNU distribution, just
like Debian, Yggdrasil or Slackware the only difference is that it came
first and sometimes that is all it takes to genericize a brand. like
Walkman for all portable tape players, Xeroxing for making a photocopy,
Kleenex for a paper tissue or ZipLoc for bags that have a plastic fastner.

some companies spend millions of dollars on "awareness campaigns" to
insure that people do not use their registered, trademaked and copy
written brands generically but it does not always work. Stallman and the
FSF have the right to ask people to use the term GNU when referring to a
distribution based on their work and they may be in the right; but
people are not going to start Scotting their noses when they are cold,
or Minoltaing their term papers just because some company asked for it.


From andyschmid at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 08:14:56 2008
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:14:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEAGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEAGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a30810070614m60e7cf7bq2b43267531896bd6@mail.gmail.com>

While I support GNU, and recognize the significance of associating GNU with
Linux, I do not think changing the groups name is necessary, nor a good
idea.

First, unless someone is specifically talking about the Linux Kernel, the
term "Linux" has become a term which encompasses the kernel as well as
supporting GNU software.  I know by textbook definition Linux refers to the
kernel only, but I think its safe to say that by the popular consensus,
people have redefined (coined if you will) the term to include the entire
OS.  I would submit an argument saying that by using the word "Linux",
people are (most of the time) referring to the GNU/Linux package.

Second, the term LUG has its own, well known definition.  GLUG is confusing,
unknown to people, as as stated in my first argument I feel that the term
Linux implies the inclusion of GNU software.

As stated before, KISS.

Just my two cents, I am open to friendly debate on the issue!

Cheers,
Andy



On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 4:31 AM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:
> tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:02 AM
> > To: TCLUG List
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
> >
> > > The KISS version of the name works for most folks...
> > >    and was what was chosen first,
> > >       and was chosen by folks who knew of Stallman (etc) when they
> chose.
> >
> > Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  Then Linus
> > wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was
> > "nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes the
> > Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?
> >
> > The fact that many people call it Linux doesn't imply that we shouldn't
> > call it GNU/Linux.  The name serves a useful purpose by promoting an
> > ideal.
> >
> > Mike
>
>
> KISS.. otherwise we must give credit to von Neumann, and Amazing Grace (et
> al) whose contributions made GNU possible and are
> essential today for any instance or artifact of GNU or Linux that runs.
>  Whenever we give a name, we shorten the full etymology and
> genealogy for various reasons that are best approximated as KISS.  Clarify
> in a website in a history paragraph so it's duly noted,
> but don't expect everyone to change speech or writing in everyday usage.
>  Life and language are full of examples of KISS terminology
> or nicknames, etc.  How about Neumann-GNU-Linux...  to remember and give
> credit to the top ten or twenty whose works are about
> equally essential ?
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 08:38:52 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:38:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEAGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEAGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070836540.18870@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:

> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  Then Linus 
>> wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was 
>> "nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes 
>> the Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?
>
> KISS.. otherwise we must give credit to von Neumann, and ...

OK.  GNU it is.  You are right.  Why even mention the name of the kernel 
when the system had the name GNU from day one?

Mike


From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 08:58:55 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 08:58:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070836540.18870@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Miller [mailto:mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:39 AM
> To: Chuck Cole
> Cc: TCLUG List
> Subject: RE: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Mike Miller wrote:
> >
> >> Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  Then Linus
> >> wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was
> >> "nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes
> >> the Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?
> >
> > KISS.. otherwise we must give credit to von Neumann, and ...
>
> OK.  GNU it is.  You are right.  Why even mention the name of the kernel
> when the system had the name GNU from day one?

The only issue here is change of the list and domain name TCLUG.  More credit is due von Neumann than GNU in any case.  Only the
TCLUG founders, maintainers, and those paying for the associated domain names have a say in this matter BECAUSE they chose TCLUG
when most knew full and well, and TCLUG was appropriate then and for years afterwards.   Wear whatever ID bracelet you choose
because that is your choice.  Changing the TCLUG name is not yours to choose.  You are a relative newcomer here.. and an excellent
contributor most of the time.  :-)


Chuck




>
> Mike
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1710 - Release Date: 10/6/2008 5:37 PM
>



From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 09:22:28 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 09:22:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGAEAHCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 2:02 AM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
>
>
> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > The KISS version of the name works for most folks...
> >    and was what was chosen first,
> >       and was chosen by folks who knew of Stallman (etc) when they chose.
>
> Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?

Whatever..   My point was the very simple one that TCLUG was named b y folks most of whom who knew all this THEN when they named it.
It was named with basic cognition, and the choice TCLUG was made.  The name has worked well enough for many years and needs no
change.  Adding a history and credits paragraph to the TCLUG website may be "nice", however.  More than that is truly silly consider
unless Tanner, Jima, et al want to change the name.  If the TCLUG founders care about this and regret their original choice, THEN
they should change list, domain name, etc. Those who are not TCLUG founders or maintainers should have no say.


Chuck



> Then Linus
> wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was
> "nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes the
> Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?
>
> The fact that many people call it Linux doesn't imply that we shouldn't
> call it GNU/Linux.  The name serves a useful purpose by promoting an
> ideal.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.173 / Virus Database: 270.7.6/1710 - Release Date: 10/6/2008 5:37 PM
>



From jima at beer.tclug.org  Tue Oct  7 09:25:26 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 09:25:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org>

Chuck Cole wrote:
> The only issue here is change of the list and domain name TCLUG.  More credit is due von Neumann than GNU in any case.  Only the
> TCLUG founders, maintainers, and those paying for the associated domain names have a say in this matter BECAUSE they chose TCLUG
> when most knew full and well, and TCLUG was appropriate then and for years afterwards.   Wear whatever ID bracelet you choose
> because that is your choice.  Changing the TCLUG name is not yours to choose.  You are a relative newcomer here.. and an excellent
> contributor most of the time.  :-)

  I wouldn't say that's the only issue here, actually.  As a matter of 
fact, the domain name wasn't originally (and for many things, still 
isn't) tclug.org, it was mn-linux.org (i.e., the list address we're both 
sending to).  I registered tclug.org years after the fact because 
someone complained at a meeting (at the U, as I recall) that 
"mn-linux.org" wasn't the most intuitive domain name for TCLUG.
  The "TCLUG founders," such as they were, got that domain so that it 
could serve as an umbrella for any and all (G?)LUGs in the state.  I 
know for a while SCALUG could be found at http://scalug.mn-linux.org 
(although that doesn't appear to be the case anymore, nor the later 
scalug.us).

  What TCLUG's current name (or, at the very least, acronym) has going 
for it is its guessability (yay, made-up word!).  People move to the 
Twin Cities and wonder if there's a LUG (a long-established and 
widely-used acronym) here.  What might they search for?
  I don't care very much about what our group's name is, "official" or 
otherwise.  I don't personally say "GNU/Linux," but that's a matter of 
habit, not a statement on any feelings about GNU.  I don't feel 
passionately one way or the other about the idea of a name change.  I 
strongly question, though, changing the acronym when it has a lot of 
history behind it (and not just because I have a domain wrapped up in 
it).  If that means "the 'G' is silent," so be it.

  And for what it's worth, "you are a relative newcomer here" could be 
said about a lot of people on this list, myself included.  Is this a 
democracy?  A meritocracy?  A chronocracy?  A 
whoever-gets-off-their-duff monarchy?
  That might be a better question to answer before we try considering 
who has say in the group.

      Jima

  who thinks 'GLUG' would go well with beer meetings


From canito at dalan.us  Tue Oct  7 09:35:14 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 09:35:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081007093514.qauqbhaeu8o4k4ok@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Rob Bayerl <verigoth at gmail.com>:

> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:01 AM, Mike Miller   
> <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>>> The KISS version of the name works for most folks...
>>>    and was what was chosen first,
>>>       and was chosen by folks who knew of Stallman (etc) when they chose.
>>
>> Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  Then Linus
>> wrote a kernel and named it Linux, after himself, and said that it was
>> "nothing" without GNU.  So why don't we call the system that includes the
>> Linus' kernel GNU, which was its original name?
>>
>> The fact that many people call it Linux doesn't imply that we shouldn't
>> call it GNU/Linux.  The name serves a useful purpose by promoting an
>> ideal.
>
> I disagree.  You can lobby for the name change all you want, but I do
> not think the de facto name will ever be GNU/Linux.  It's like when
> saying "Merry Christmas" was supposed to be replaced with "Happy
> Holidays" to acknowledge non-Christian holidays as well.  Some people
> changed, but most still say "Merry Christmas".  For whatever reason,
> the Linux kernel and the GNU toolset is collectively referred to as
> simply Linux.  It is far too late in the game to expect everybody to
> change (but give it a shot if you like).
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

Sort of like, why vote for change? We must defeat the "communist",  
"communism", "community", "grass roots", "ideal" at any cost!

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



From rsinland at gvtel.com  Tue Oct  7 09:46:53 2008
From: rsinland at gvtel.com (Robert Sinland)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 09:46:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman
Message-ID: <48EB765D.9080700@gvtel.com>

   Anyone that looks can see I am sending this from a Windoze machine, 
but thats just because I choose to do email from there via Thunderbird.
Anyway, you guys have a chance to go meet Richard.  Thats great!   He's 
just a man, but he has influenced computing or computer using as we know it.
Go see the man, hear what he has to say.  Name of the user group I would 
be reluctant to change just for this one occasion, but WTH, we can 
always change it back if thats the case.
What I was shooting for was this.  RMS is a man that has a history and 
will be associated with computer users in one way or another for some 
time.  But I think that love him, hate him,
whatever..   You guys should look at this as a chance to get to know 
him, and maybe influence him as well.  If nothing else you can tell your 
kids you met him and bent his ear.
Thats probably 3 cents worth, can give change if needed:)
RS



From airchia at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 10:28:54 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:28:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 3D on Linux & VMWare
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810070828r1043df93taab10ed049512185@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,
Okay, so I'm thinking I have a solution for running all my needed 3D
software on Linux. I'm thinking about installing a 64 bit Linux distro, then
using VM Ware for Linux, and running Windows inside. Does anyone know if
there are any known issues running Vue, Maya, Lightwave, XSI or Zbrush and
Mudbox inside VM Ware? I am looking on the VM Ware site, and will also post
to my 3D forums. But since this is Linux-based, I wanted to run it through
here first.

I really think this could work. Any thoughts or advice would be most
appreciated. Has anyone run VM Ware?

Thank you,
Nick

-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From verigoth at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 10:41:36 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:41:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:25 AM, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:
>  I wouldn't say that's the only issue here, actually.  As a matter of
> fact, the domain name wasn't originally (and for many things, still
> isn't) tclug.org, it was mn-linux.org (i.e., the list address we're both
> sending to).  I registered tclug.org years after the fact because
> someone complained at a meeting (at the U, as I recall) that
> "mn-linux.org" wasn't the most intuitive domain name for TCLUG.
>  The "TCLUG founders," such as they were, got that domain so that it
> could serve as an umbrella for any and all (G?)LUGs in the state.  I
> know for a while SCALUG could be found at http://scalug.mn-linux.org
> (although that doesn't appear to be the case anymore, nor the later
> scalug.us).

For me, the real issue is that a prominent figure in our community has
set preconditions before he will meet us.  Forget the fact that LUG is
a common acronym or that GNU/Linux is often referred to as simply
Linux.  What about the Linux kernel running on embedded devices with
few or no GNU tools?  Are we not interested in these?  The common
factor of all of my "toys" is that they are running the Linux kernel,
and I think a lot of people in this group are the same way.

The argument has also been proposed that the Linux kernel would not
exist without the GNU C Compiler.  The truth is none of these tools
(nor even UNIX) would exist without the C Programming Language.
Perhaps we should change the name to TCGLUG: Twin Cities GCC/Linux
Users Group.  That way GNU is acknowledged, but so is the work of
Dennis Ritchie, without whom we wouldn't even have GNU.

In my opinion, a person with manners would have agreed to a meeting
and used that forum to propose a name change and provide a good
argument to why we should bother.  Setting it as a precondition to a
meeting gives Mr Stallman what appears (to me at least) to be a holier
than thou attitude.


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Oct  7 10:52:50 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 10:52:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org>
	<b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081007155249.GK3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 10:41:36AM -0500, Rob Bayerl wrote:
> In my opinion, a person with manners would have agreed to a meeting
> and used that forum to propose a name change and provide a good
> argument to why we should bother.

Accepting our invitation and springing up the proposal for name change
would have made for a much more awkward moment and hurt feelings.

>                                    Setting it as a precondition to a
> meeting gives Mr Stallman what appears (to me at least) to be a holier
> than thou attitude.

Agree with him or not, RMS has chosen some important principles which
happen to be uncomfortable for many of us, and he is living by them
and preaching them wherever he goes.  He not just _appears_ to be,
but he actually is 'holier than thou' in this respect.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From verigoth at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 11:11:26 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:11:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081007155249.GK3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org>
	<b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081007155249.GK3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810070911g62194ca1h35e4ffa048be429b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 10:52 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> ...  He not just _appears_ to be,
> but he actually is 'holier than thou' in this respect.

I'm sorry, but I don't buy that.  We are all humans and all of our
feces stinks.  I have my own philosophies and convictions and I stand
by them as well, but I do not alienate myself from society by not
respecting other people as equals.   Put him on a pedestal if you
must, but please don't insist that I do the same.


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 11:14:37 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:14:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071018220.821@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:

> More credit is due von Neumann than GNU in any case.

More credit for what?  Not for GNU or GNU/Linux or Linux, or whatever you 
want to call it.  That would be like saying that the credit for 
Michelangelo's great stone sculptures should go more to the inventor of 
the chisel than to Michelangelo.  That is a bit of an exaggeration but 
you'll get my point.


> Changing the TCLUG name is not yours to choose.

It should be obvious that I know that.  That is why I started writing to 
the list about the idea instead of simply changing the name!  ;-)


> You are a relative newcomer here.. and an excellent contributor most of 
> the time.  :-)

Thank you.  I am not trying to usurp any authority.

Mike


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Oct  7 11:22:58 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 11:22:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081007155249.GK3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net><48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org><b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081007155249.GK3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <029101c92898$f631f920$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>


>>                                    Setting it as a precondition to a
>> meeting gives Mr Stallman what appears (to me at least) to be a holier
>> than thou attitude.

>Agree with him or not, RMS has chosen some important principles which
>happen to be uncomfortable for many of us, and he is living by them
>and preaching them wherever he goes.  He not just _appears_ to be,
>but he actually is 'holier than thou' in this respect.

>florin

I believe the point is if he wishes to "enlighten" us non zealots he should
do it in a less abrasive manner. He could have been more polite about the
request instead of making it ultimatum-ish. Of course how he conducts his
business is his business. Right or wrong in his message he just continues to
rub people the wrong way with his apparent ungraceful social skills. This
may be the first interaction with RMS for many and he appears to be doing
more damage to his reputation than good. Maybe that is his intent so as to
spark more conversations, if so he is doing a very good job. Perhaps though
his comments/intention were just misunderstood, or maybe he was in a rush
with his reply and therefore did not put full thought and analysis as we are
into his words, people do make mistakes.

All personal things aside, I believe changing the name is not the best
choice. People have listed off good points both for and against the name
change and I believe that making the name change implicitly alters the
intention of the group as a whole. From reading the website and mostly
lurking on this list it does not appear that the group is designed or
intended to be GNU publicists or even free software publicists. Our goals do
not seem to match those of RMS's. Of course some/many/all here are for the
general principals that RMS is for but does that mean this specific user
group is the best front to propagate the messages of RMS campaign.

If people feel strongly enough about the movement RMS leads, feel free to
make your own group which could share a common user base and certainly the
two could co-exist with each other and have URLs and references to each
other and what not.

Most "distributions" contain GNU software, Linux kernel, other non-GNU free
software, other non-GPL free software, and proprietary non-free software.
Let's keep the TCLUG group focused on users using the software we
collectively call "Linux" be it any of the GNU and non-GNU bits.



From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Tue Oct  7 11:52:43 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:52:43 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEAGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGCEAGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E601845C6D@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

> Well the first name used for the system was GNU, wasn't it?  

Then we should call it GNU - according to the Priority Principle. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_Priority 

There is precedence for changing a popular and well-known name.
Remember Brontosaurs?  Its name was officially changed when
paleontologists realized the name Apatosaurus was used first. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatosaurus 
The fascinating story of bitter rivals and gigantic egos of "The Bone
Wars" 
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/4003/26156 
is detailed in the book "Bully for Brontosaurus" by Stephen Jay Gould.


Stallman is willing to accept GNU/Linux.  That's magnanimous,
acknowledges the work of others, and provides a useful distinction from,
say, a GNU/Hurd OS.




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Tue Oct  7 12:15:57 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:15:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810071215.57381.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> Now, lets be practical - lets send RMS a response (Mike, if you and

Send him a response?  Judging by his message to Chuck, I think Stallman is 
reading the list  :)

On Monday 06 October 2008 2:47:16 pm Sunny wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 2:33 PM, Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> 
wrote:
> > Honestly, I find that fact that this is even being discussed this way is
> > bizarre and unproductive. If anything, a decision for a name change
> > should open us to a variety of options, and not merely the 2 (current and
> > proposed).
> > <snip>
> > On an even plane, I am open to name changes, but the avenue and approach
> > this has taken is borderline offensive, and rather than risk alienating
> > those on the list and the group over such a petty issue, I say meet with
> > Stallman if you wish, under whatever banner you so choose.
> >
> > But let's then sit down and discuss name proposals if people really would
> > like a name change. Personally, while I don't find TC-LUG elegant, it IS
> > clear and it was how I found the list so quickly upon moving here.
> >
> > Peace
>
> Yes, lets go for peace. I guess RMS achieved what he wanted - he
> provoked a discussion - which is good thing.
>
> Now, lets be practical - lets send RMS a response (Mike, if you and
> others agree), which states that discussion of name changing in
> underway, but a little bit of more help from the man (RMS) to convince
> more members, is more than welcome, so lets meet and let him convince
> the "unbelievers". :)
>
> This should be acceptable for any reasonable person.
>
> Cheers




From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 12:48:52 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:48:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071018220.821@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 11:15 AM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
>
>
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > More credit is due von Neumann than GNU in any case.
>
> More credit for what?  Not for GNU or GNU/Linux or Linux, or whatever you
> want to call it.  That would be like saying that the credit for
> Michelangelo's great stone sculptures should go more to the inventor of
> the chisel than to Michelangelo.  That is a bit of an exaggeration but
> you'll get my point.
>

It's way too much a stretch of the fact I pointed out.  Non-Harvard, non von Neumann machines are responsible for much of the chaos
that Amazing Grace's work toward portability (via COBOL) eventually achieved.   Stallman's work would not exist or run without those
developments as specific parts of host environments for his stuff.  Not a chisel, it's the physical art and also a canvas that
provides the reality that Stallman (et alii) can do their unreal virtual stuff upon.  Without a realization of von Neuman's work as
a host, Stallman's has no existence at all.  That deserves as much credit if not more but it's the real stuff, not some virtual
reality  :-)


> Thank you.
Certainly welcome and deserving for that.


>  I am not trying to usurp any authority.

There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make decisions except by fiat.  I think Rick Tanner's opinion is
essential for this.. maybe a few others.  Jima's role seems to me to be more significant than he admits.


Chuck



From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 12:54:51 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 12:54:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <E1Kmur6-00064u-Fg@fencepost.gnu.org>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEGHNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Richard M. Stallman
> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 1:31 PM
> To: Chuck Cole
> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
>
>
> It is a frequent pattern that those who mistakenly call the GNU
> "Linux" get indignant when asked to correct this mistake.
> They have often constructed a false picture of the system's history
> and deny the truth (see http://www.gnu.org/gnu/the-gnu-project.html).


Your point would be worth more than 10 seconds consideration if you weren't the one tooting your own horn.  Your pure hubris
nullifies the good points and severely tarnishes your work.  It's not a mistake: it's a choice much of the world has already made,
however simplified the appelation may be or however unfair you may feel it is.


Chuck



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 13:12:18 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:12:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810071215.57381.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810071215.57381.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071311560.8843@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Jeremy wrote:

>> Now, lets be practical - lets send RMS a response (Mike, if you and
>
> Send him a response?  Judging by his message to Chuck, I think Stallman 
> is reading the list :)

What message to Chuck?

Mike


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 13:16:37 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:16:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810071316.45830.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Tuesday October 7 2008 02:27:47 Rob Bayerl wrote:
> It's like when
> saying "Merry Christmas" was supposed to be replaced with "Happy
> Holidays" to acknowledge non-Christian holidays as well.  Some people
> changed, but most still say "Merry Christmas".

Humbug. I've got Mithras on line 2, wants his birthday back.

That said, even I say "merry Christmas." But the reason I do so is because I 
consider it to be a secular, generic American holiday that has more to do with 
fat guys and flying reindeer than it does anybody's religion.

What the moral of that is with regards to the present topic is anybody's 
guess.

-pete
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 13:23:43 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:23:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071315120.8843@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:

>> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
>>
>>> More credit is due von Neumann than GNU in any case.
>>
>> More credit for what?  Not for GNU or GNU/Linux or Linux, or whatever 
>> you want to call it.  That would be like saying that the credit for 
>> Michelangelo's great stone sculptures should go more to the inventor of 
>> the chisel than to Michelangelo.  That is a bit of an exaggeration but 
>> you'll get my point.
>
> It's way too much a stretch of the fact I pointed out.  Non-Harvard, non 
> von Neumann machines are responsible for much of the chaos that Amazing 
> Grace's work toward portability (via COBOL) eventually achieved. 
> Stallman's work would not exist or run without those developments as 
> specific parts of host environments for his stuff.  Not a chisel, it's 
> the physical art and also a canvas that provides the reality that 
> Stallman (et alii) can do their unreal virtual stuff upon.  Without a 
> realization of von Neuman's work as a host, Stallman's has no existence 
> at all.  That deserves as much credit if not more but it's the real 
> stuff, not some virtual reality :-)

You are talking about computers, but is our group about the hardware or 
about the software?  Do you think that Rembrandt's paintings should be 
considered the work of those who made the pigments and canvases, and not 
Rembrandt's work?  Please.


>>  I am not trying to usurp any authority.
>
> There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make 
> decisions except by fiat.  I think Rick Tanner's opinion is essential 
> for this.. maybe a few others.  Jima's role seems to me to be more 
> significant than he admits.

Someone manages the web pages.  Whoever has write permission on those 
files is the one who has to make changes.

If changes cannot be made, and someone wants to start a new group that 
includes GNU in the name, then someone can do that.  The group isn't a 
*lot* more than the email list and that is easy to move.

Mike


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 13:25:31 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:25:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org>
	<b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810071325.31866.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Tuesday October 7 2008 10:41:36 Rob Bayerl wrote:
> For me, the real issue is that a prominent figure in our community has
> set preconditions before he will meet us.

Okay, people keep saying this but I can't find it anywhere in the original 
email that the guy _refuses_ to meet with us if we do not do this, only that 
he _guarantees_ he will if we do. An important distinction is being missed 
there.

-pete
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Tue Oct  7 13:37:40 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 13:37:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>

Chuck Cole wrote:
> Mike Miller wrote:
>>  I am not trying to usurp any authority.
> 
> There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make decisions except by fiat.  I think Rick Tanner's opinion is
> essential for this.. maybe a few others.  Jima's role seems to me to be more significant than he admits.

  I'm not sure if you're implying that I'm just being modest, or what. 
Facts of the matter:  I didn't found TCLUG.  My involvement began 2-3 
years after it happened.  I have no write/edit access to
any TCLUG-branded web sites (except maybe the beer meeting page, and I 
don't recall the credentials).  All I have is DNS control over one, 
non-primary, domain name.  And maybe some sway with whoever's holding 
the keys, not that I'm certain who that is these days.
  I've represented the group in arguably official capacities in the 
past, yes, but I haven't had time or energy to invest in over four years.

  Any further implications regarding my "role?"

      Jima


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Tue Oct  7 13:37:51 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 13:37:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200810071337.51506.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make

Chuck, 

Some people do volunteer to organize meetings, and it can take a lot of work 
depending on the presentation.  Can you bring yourself to acknowedge that?

Jeremy

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 12:48:52 pm Chuck Cole wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller Sent:
> > Tuesday, October 07, 2008 11:15 AM
> > To: TCLUG List
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
> >
> > On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:
> > > More credit is due von Neumann than GNU in any case.
> >
> > More credit for what?  Not for GNU or GNU/Linux or Linux, or whatever you
> > want to call it.  That would be like saying that the credit for
> > Michelangelo's great stone sculptures should go more to the inventor of
> > the chisel than to Michelangelo.  That is a bit of an exaggeration but
> > you'll get my point.
>
> It's way too much a stretch of the fact I pointed out.  Non-Harvard, non
> von Neumann machines are responsible for much of the chaos that Amazing
> Grace's work toward portability (via COBOL) eventually achieved.  
> Stallman's work would not exist or run without those developments as
> specific parts of host environments for his stuff.  Not a chisel, it's the
> physical art and also a canvas that provides the reality that Stallman (et
> alii) can do their unreal virtual stuff upon.  Without a realization of von
> Neuman's work as a host, Stallman's has no existence at all.  That deserves
> as much credit if not more but it's the real stuff, not some virtual
> reality  :-)
>
> > Thank you.
>
> Certainly welcome and deserving for that.
>
> >  I am not trying to usurp any authority.
>
> There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make
> decisions except by fiat.  I think Rick Tanner's opinion is essential for
> this.. maybe a few others.  Jima's role seems to me to be more significant
> than he admits.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 14:01:18 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:01:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCIEGJNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jima [mailto:jima at beer.tclug.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 1:38 PM
> To: Chuck Cole
>
> Chuck Cole wrote:
> > Mike Miller wrote:
> >>  I am not trying to usurp any authority.
> >
> > There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make decisions except by fiat.  I think Rick Tanner's
> opinion is
> > essential for this.. maybe a few others.  Jima's role seems to me to be more significant than he admits.
>
>   I'm not sure if you're implying that I'm just being modest, or what.
> Facts of the matter:  I didn't found TCLUG.  My involvement began 2-3
> years after it happened.  I have no write/edit access to
> any TCLUG-branded web sites (except maybe the beer meeting page, and I
> don't recall the credentials).  All I have is DNS control over one,
> non-primary, domain name.  And maybe some sway with whoever's holding
> the keys, not that I'm certain who that is these days.
>   I've represented the group in arguably official capacities in the
> past, yes, but I haven't had time or energy to invest in over four years.
>
>   Any further implications regarding my "role?"

You started before me, but apparently not by much at all.  You have been much more active and involved, and I appreciate your
assorted (sordid?) efforts.  I didn't mean to do more than give you credit.

I'm being too outpoken in this.


Chuck





From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  7 14:13:49 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:13:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810071337.51506.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeremy [mailto:tclug at lizakowski.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 1:38 PM
>
> > There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make
>
> Chuck,
>
> Some people do volunteer to organize meetings, and it can take a lot of work
> depending on the presentation.  Can you bring yourself to acknowedge that?
>
> Jeremy

No:  The efforts to base the group at UMN have been damaging and stultifying, IMHO.  Many in the community do not want to go there
for any reason.  The other TCLUG things like beer meetings and Installfests have died out, perhaps as a result of the UMN emphasis.
The Penguins Unbound efforts and installfests deserve much praise, however.


Chuck



From sloncho at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 14:16:54 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:16:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810071215.57381.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <280424.54748.qm@web32808.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<bada98250810061233w60ad650emcdb99f581376021c@mail.gmail.com>
	<e7eeb230810061247wd2e718bn66ffa65a5586d0b7@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810071215.57381.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810071216w241886afsd02925129d8bdbb9@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Jeremy <tclug at lizakowski.com> wrote:
>> Now, lets be practical - lets send RMS a response (Mike, if you and
>
> Send him a response?  Judging by his message to Chuck, I think Stallman is
> reading the list  :)
>

Even better :)

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Tue Oct  7 14:24:28 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 14:24:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>


TCLUG is a decentralized organization.  Several people each play a small role 
to pull it all together.  There is the mailing list, the website, hosting, 
domain ownership, and planning meetings.  

I currently have the admin credentials to the website, but the website is 
hosted by Real-time, and I think Munir also manages the mailing list.  I plan 
the meetings, with the occasional help/advice of Eric, Paul, Chris, and 
others.  The University hosts the meetings.  Brian holds alternative meetings 
(penguins unbound) on saturday mornings.  Tony organizes Ubuntu-specific 
meetings.  It looks like Jima has the domain.  The speakers agree to speak 
without compensation.

There is a difference between 'no leadership', and decentralized control.  If 
there were no leadership, none of those things would get done.  In some ways, 
it reflects the FOSS community, where everyone pitches in to help.  

This is also why a name change is difficult.  For instance, when we update the 
website, will we do more than change the logo and text, such as modernize it?   
We've heard proposals about rewriting the website in drupal, or rails, and 
all sorts of fancy stuff, but who will support it?  And I mean support it for 
many years.  RIght now it is stable and well supported.

From an operational point of view, If we change the name the risk of 
disrupting the balance that supports tclug.  Yes, the switch sounds easy on 
paper, like most projects, but I've thought it through, and it would not be 
trivial.  And that assumes we can reach consensus one way or another.

Jeremy

On Tuesday 07 October 2008 1:37:40 pm Jima wrote:
> Chuck Cole wrote:
> > Mike Miller wrote:
> >>  I am not trying to usurp any authority.
> >
> > There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make
> > decisions except by fiat.  I think Rick Tanner's opinion is essential for
> > this.. maybe a few others.  Jima's role seems to me to be more
> > significant than he admits.
>
>   I'm not sure if you're implying that I'm just being modest, or what.
> Facts of the matter:  I didn't found TCLUG.  My involvement began 2-3
> years after it happened.  I have no write/edit access to
> any TCLUG-branded web sites (except maybe the beer meeting page, and I
> don't recall the credentials).  All I have is DNS control over one,
> non-primary, domain name.  And maybe some sway with whoever's holding
> the keys, not that I'm certain who that is these days.
>   I've represented the group in arguably official capacities in the
> past, yes, but I haven't had time or energy to invest in over four years.
>
>   Any further implications regarding my "role?"
>
>       Jima
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From haircut at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 14:53:26 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:53:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <200810071337.51506.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1223409206.3812.40.camel@localhost>

I want to take this moment to acknowledge Jeremy's success in getting
the word out about the recent talk I gave on Selenium. I would guess
about 15 to 20 people showed up for the talk, and the facility at the U
of M was superb. Many questions were asked during the talk. There  was
even applause at the end.

Also, thank you, Gophers! Proper audiovisual equipment, space, lighting,
room rental, etc. can be expensive, and it is kind of the U of M to
allow us the use of their facilities.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From stuff at cb1inc.com  Tue Oct  7 14:58:16 2008
From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber)
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2008 14:58:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <48EBBF58.7030803@cb1inc.com>

What TCLUG needs is a maverick.



Jeremy wrote:
> TCLUG is a decentralized organization.  Several people each play a small role 
> to pull it all together.  There is the mailing list, the website, hosting, 
> domain ownership, and planning meetings.  
>
> I currently have the admin credentials to the website, but the website is 
> hosted by Real-time, and I think Munir also manages the mailing list.  I plan 
> the meetings, with the occasional help/advice of Eric, Paul, Chris, and 
> others.  The University hosts the meetings.  Brian holds alternative meetings 
> (penguins unbound) on saturday mornings.  Tony organizes Ubuntu-specific 
> meetings.  It looks like Jima has the domain.  The speakers agree to speak 
> without compensation.
>
> There is a difference between 'no leadership', and decentralized control.  If 
> there were no leadership, none of those things would get done.  In some ways, 
> it reflects the FOSS community, where everyone pitches in to help.  
>
> This is also why a name change is difficult.  For instance, when we update the 
> website, will we do more than change the logo and text, such as modernize it?   
> We've heard proposals about rewriting the website in drupal, or rails, and 
> all sorts of fancy stuff, but who will support it?  And I mean support it for 
> many years.  RIght now it is stable and well supported.
>
> From an operational point of view, If we change the name the risk of 
> disrupting the balance that supports tclug.  Yes, the switch sounds easy on 
> paper, like most projects, but I've thought it through, and it would not be 
> trivial.  And that assumes we can reach consensus one way or another.
>
> Jeremy
>
> On Tuesday 07 October 2008 1:37:40 pm Jima wrote:
>   
>> Chuck Cole wrote:
>>     
>>> Mike Miller wrote:
>>>       
>>>>  I am not trying to usurp any authority.
>>>>         
>>> There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make
>>> decisions except by fiat.  I think Rick Tanner's opinion is essential for
>>> this.. maybe a few others.  Jima's role seems to me to be more
>>> significant than he admits.
>>>       
>>   I'm not sure if you're implying that I'm just being modest, or what.
>> Facts of the matter:  I didn't found TCLUG.  My involvement began 2-3
>> years after it happened.  I have no write/edit access to
>> any TCLUG-branded web sites (except maybe the beer meeting page, and I
>> don't recall the credentials).  All I have is DNS control over one,
>> non-primary, domain name.  And maybe some sway with whoever's holding
>> the keys, not that I'm certain who that is these days.
>>   I've represented the group in arguably official capacities in the
>> past, yes, but I haven't had time or energy to invest in over four years.
>>
>>   Any further implications regarding my "role?"
>>
>>       Jima
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>     
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 15:11:16 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:11:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810071325.31866.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEGCNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EB7156.6070909@beer.tclug.org>
	<b9e05ef30810070841h3c0110a8nb4469aa32d8ad7bd@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810071325.31866.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071510550.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, p.daniels wrote:

> On Tuesday October 7 2008 10:41:36 Rob Bayerl wrote:
>
>> For me, the real issue is that a prominent figure in our community has 
>> set preconditions before he will meet us.
>
> Okay, people keep saying this but I can't find it anywhere in the 
> original email that the guy _refuses_ to meet with us if we do not do 
> this, only that he _guarantees_ he will if we do. An important 
> distinction is being missed there.


That is correct.

Mike


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Tue Oct  7 15:17:25 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:17:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <200810071337.51506.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <fa17c9630810071317g17e6fy7c5528564b9ce92b@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

> No:  The efforts to base the group at UMN have been damaging and stultifying, IMHO.  Many in the community do not want to go there
> for any reason.  The other TCLUG things like beer meetings and Installfests have died out, perhaps as a result of the UMN emphasis.
> The Penguins Unbound efforts and installfests deserve much praise, however.

I have no idea what you have against UMN, but to date i recall only
one installfest at the U and that was a joint venture with ACM. All of
the other installfests have been at other locations around the Twin
Cities metro. so no, there has not been a UMN emphasis (with regards
to the installfests at least).


From verigoth at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 15:17:54 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:17:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman
In-Reply-To: <48EB765D.9080700@gvtel.com>
References: <48EB765D.9080700@gvtel.com>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810071317y77b6f059p5f1b5a0120f6a0aa@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Robert Sinland <rsinland at gvtel.com> wrote:
> Anyway, you guys have a chance to go meet Richard.  Thats great!   He's
> just a man, but he has influenced computing or computer using as we know it.
> Go see the man, hear what he has to say.  Name of the user group I would
> be reluctant to change just for this one occasion, but WTH, we can
> always change it back if thats the case.
> What I was shooting for was this.  RMS is a man that has a history and
> will be associated with computer users in one way or another for some
> time.  But I think that love him, hate him,
> whatever..   You guys should look at this as a chance to get to know
> him, and maybe influence him as well.  If nothing else you can tell your
> kids you met him and bent his ear.
> Thats probably 3 cents worth, can give change if needed:)

I have been using Linux and GNU for 12 years now.  The one thing that
is always constant is that even just mentioning the name Richard
Stallman ALWAYS starts a huge debate.  I have argued from both sides
on this issue (what can I say, it gets boring saying the same thing),
and the result is never beneficial to the community or to the people
involved.  To me, the fundamental motives of a Linux Users Group is to
promote and educate people about the GNU philosophy and show them a
better way to use their computers.  It is my opinion that beating a
dead horse issue does not follow in this direction; in fact it
distracts from it.  These arguments have all been made, but it still
needs to be said that Richard Stallman brings negativity and
dissension that quite possibly outweigh the significance of his
contributions.  I do not know him personally and have not communicated
with him, and have no judgment towards his personality or morals.  But
it is my take that he cares more about his ideals than any concept of
community or common ground.


From verigoth at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 15:27:43 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:27:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810071316.45830.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810070154320.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<b9e05ef30810070027j753a6429lbe973cd061838c92@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810071316.45830.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810071327h45f84e96k1be8241fa6b805da@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 1:16 PM, p.daniels <teeahr1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Humbug. I've got Mithras on line 2, wants his birthday back.
>
> That said, even I say "merry Christmas." But the reason I do so is because I
> consider it to be a secular, generic American holiday that has more to do
> with fat guys and flying reindeer than it does anybody's religion.
>
> What the moral of that is with regards to the present topic is anybody's
> guess.

I say "Linux" because I consider it to be a more well known form of
"GNU/Linux", and more well known than "Debian" or "Ubuntu" or
"Slackware".  Incidentally, by questioning my point and it's relation
to the topic you showed the truth in it.


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 15:40:37 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:40:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Jeremy wrote:

> There is a difference between 'no leadership', and decentralized 
> control.  If there were no leadership, none of those things would get 
> done.  In some ways, it reflects the FOSS community, where everyone 
> pitches in to help.
>
> This is also why a name change is difficult.  For instance, when we 
> update the website, will we do more than change the logo and text, such 
> as modernize it? We've heard proposals about rewriting the website in 
> drupal, or rails, and all sorts of fancy stuff, but who will support it? 
> And I mean support it for many years.  RIght now it is stable and well 
> supported.
>
> From an operational point of view, If we change the name the risk of 
> disrupting the balance that supports tclug.  Yes, the switch sounds easy 
> on paper, like most projects, but I've thought it through, and it would 
> not be trivial.  And that assumes we can reach consensus one way or 
> another.


Thanks for this info, Jeremy.

Here's what I think:

First, modernizing the web site is a separate issue that can be dealt with 
anytime or never.

Second, I think we can continue to use the abbreviation TCLUG even if we 
choose to call the organization "Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group."  I was 
the one who wrote about TCGLUG, not Stallman; he only said that he would 
meet with us if we changed the name to GNU/Linux User Group instead of 
Linux User Group -- he didn't say anything about the abbreviation.  I 
think the abbreviation is a secondary issue and the more important idea is 
to add "GNU" to the official name of the group.

Third, I think a change to "Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group (TCLUG)" will 
not be that hard to do if we retain TCLUG abbreviation.  Someone 
volunteered to update graphics for the web pages.  For web page text, 
something like this will probably work for you if run in appropriate 
directories:

perl -pi.bak -e ''BEGIN{undef $/} ; s#(Linux\s+User)#GNU/$1#g' *.ht{m,ml}

After that we'd probably want to add a few words about GNU and the 
goodness of Free Software.

Assuming the leadership will allow it, how hard is it to arrange a vote by 
members on the name change?

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 15:41:25 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:41:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48EBBF58.7030803@cb1inc.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<48EBBF58.7030803@cb1inc.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071540530.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Chris Barber wrote:

> What TCLUG needs is a maverick.

Richard M. Stallman is the original maverick.

Mike


From andyzib at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 15:50:25 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:50:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 3D on Linux & VMWare
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810070828r1043df93taab10ed049512185@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80810070828r1043df93taab10ed049512185@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810071350q63e618b1x15d7161100e31184@mail.gmail.com>

VMWare's 3D support is limited, so it will depend. You'll have to have
a 3D card that has supported 3D acceleration in Linux. NVidia cards
with the NVidia binary drivers should work. Not sure what the state of
ATI Linux drivers.

For VMWare, you'll have to enable the 3D acceleration option. Even
with it enabled you'll still be limited in what will work, and it
won't be running at the same speed as if it were running on a native
Windows computer.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 15:50:37 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 15:50:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810071317y77b6f059p5f1b5a0120f6a0aa@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48EB765D.9080700@gvtel.com>
	<b9e05ef30810071317y77b6f059p5f1b5a0120f6a0aa@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071543040.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Rob Bayerl wrote:

> I have been using Linux and GNU for 12 years now.  The one thing that is 
> always constant is that even just mentioning the name Richard Stallman 
> ALWAYS starts a huge debate.  I have argued from both sides on this 
> issue (what can I say, it gets boring saying the same thing), and the 
> result is never beneficial to the community or to the people involved. 
> To me, the fundamental motives of a Linux Users Group is to promote and 
> educate people about the GNU philosophy and show them a better way to 
> use their computers.  It is my opinion that beating a dead horse issue 
> does not follow in this direction; in fact it distracts from it.  These 
> arguments have all been made, but it still needs to be said that Richard 
> Stallman brings negativity and dissension that quite possibly outweigh 
> the significance of his contributions.  I do not know him personally and 
> have not communicated with him, and have no judgment towards his 
> personality or morals.  But it is my take that he cares more about his 
> ideals than any concept of community or common ground.


I think people are arguing about the GNU philosophy and the GPL a lot more 
than they are arguing about Stallman.  How does Stallman bring negativity 
and dissension?  By pushing a philosophy that some people don't want to be 
bothered with?  I think so.

I would be interested to know if you can have a discussion about GNU 
philosophy and the GPL without evoking the negativity and dissension you 
are talking about.

For me, the fact that some people go berserk when we discuss these issues 
does not imply that I should stop talking about them.  Very often, people 
are flat wrong and they can learn something from a dialogue.

Best,
Mike


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 16:17:20 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:17:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810071327h45f84e96k1be8241fa6b805da@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEPNCLAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071316.45830.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<b9e05ef30810071327h45f84e96k1be8241fa6b805da@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810071617.20541.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Tuesday October 7 2008 15:27:43 Rob Bayerl wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 1:16 PM, p.daniels <teeahr1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Humbug. I've got Mithras on line 2, wants his birthday back.
> >
> > That said, even I say "merry Christmas." But the reason I do so is
> > because I consider it to be a secular, generic American holiday that has
> > more to do with fat guys and flying reindeer than it does anybody's
> > religion.
> >
> > What the moral of that is with regards to the present topic is anybody's
> > guess.
>
> I say "Linux" because I consider it to be a more well known form of
> "GNU/Linux", and more well known than "Debian" or "Ubuntu" or
> "Slackware".  Incidentally, by questioning my point and it's relation
> to the topic you showed the truth in it.

Sorry, I was unclear. I was questioning my own "pointfulness," not yours :)

-pete
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 16:19:08 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:19:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810071419l4d47af42vdefa3ce6abc47221@mail.gmail.com>

> Second, I think we can continue to use the abbreviation TCLUG even if we
> choose to call the organization "Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group."

Seems reasonable to me...so reasonable I suggested it two days ago. ;-)

With this option we can have some fun with the whole thing instead of
debating and getting frustrated. In true fun spirited geekyness, just
tell everyone that TCLUG might mean any or all of the following:

Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group
Twin Cities LART User Group
Twin Cities Linux User Group
Twin Cities Leprechauns Using GREP
Twin Cities Leaping Under Giraffes
Twin Cities Loves Using GNU

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Oct  7 16:37:22 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:37:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810071419l4d47af42vdefa3ce6abc47221@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EBAC74.7090803@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<e3a54b020810071419l4d47af42vdefa3ce6abc47221@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081007213722.GL3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 04:19:08PM -0500, Andrew S. Zbikowski wrote:
> > Second, I think we can continue to use the abbreviation TCLUG even if we
> > choose to call the organization "Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group."

+1

> Seems reasonable to me...so reasonable I suggested it two days ago. ;-)
> 
> With this option we can have some fun with the whole thing instead of
> debating and getting frustrated. In true fun spirited geekyness, just
> tell everyone that TCLUG might mean any or all of the following:
> 
> [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group
> [ ] Twin Cities LART User Group
> [ ] Twin Cities Linux User Group
> [ ] Twin Cities Leprechauns Using GREP
> [ ] Twin Cities Leaping Under Giraffes
> [X] Twin Cities Loves Using GNU

We have a winner!

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From florin at iucha.net  Tue Oct  7 16:39:40 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:39:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <200810071337.51506.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20081007213940.GM3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 02:13:49PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
> No:  The efforts to base the group at UMN have been damaging and stultifying, IMHO.  Many in the community do not want to go there
> for any reason.  The other TCLUG things like beer meetings and Installfests have died out, perhaps as a result of the UMN emphasis.

Please search the archives if you need a refresher.
There were no beer meetings at the U, and only one installfest.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 16:51:09 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 16:51:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200810071651.10929.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Tuesday October 7 2008 14:13:49 Chuck Cole wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeremy [mailto:tclug at lizakowski.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 1:38 PM
> >
> > > There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make
> >
> > Chuck,
> >
> > Some people do volunteer to organize meetings, and it can take a lot of
> > work depending on the presentation.  Can you bring yourself to acknowedge
> > that?
> >
> > Jeremy
>
> No:  The efforts to base the group at UMN have been damaging and
> stultifying, IMHO.  Many in the community do not want to go there for any
> reason.  The other TCLUG things like beer meetings and Installfests have
> died out, perhaps as a result of the UMN emphasis. The Penguins Unbound
> efforts and installfests deserve much praise, however.
>
>
> Chuck

Wow, do we now have the all-encompassing "Every TCLUG Flamewar Ever Battle 
Royale Extravaganza" thread going here?

-p.
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From airchia at gmail.com  Tue Oct  7 17:14:48 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 17:14:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] 3D on Linux & VMWare
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810071350q63e618b1x15d7161100e31184@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80810070828r1043df93taab10ed049512185@mail.gmail.com>
	<e3a54b020810071350q63e618b1x15d7161100e31184@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810071514q55cf9183r4dc1ec91ed5d47ed@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the info. Good to know.

Nick



On Tue, Oct 7, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Andrew S. Zbikowski <andyzib at gmail.com>wrote:

> VMWare's 3D support is limited, so it will depend. You'll have to have
> a 3D card that has supported 3D acceleration in Linux. NVidia cards
> with the NVidia binary drivers should work. Not sure what the state of
> ATI Linux drivers.
>
> For VMWare, you'll have to enable the 3D acceleration option. Even
> with it enabled you'll still be limited in what will work, and it
> won't be running at the same speed as if it were running on a native
> Windows computer.
>
> --
> Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
> IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct  7 23:55:52 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2008 23:55:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062234540.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <24901.30056.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062234540.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810072352290.26323@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Mike Miller wrote:

> With version 0.12 (5 Jan 1991), Torvalds switched his license to the GPL:
>
> http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/Historic/old-versions/RELNOTES-0.12

That should have said "16 Jan 1992".  I forgot to finish checking the 
dates before I sent it.  I know the "5 Jan 1991" date is wrong.  I got the 
other date here...

http://ftp.cdut.edu.cn/pub2/linux/kernel/history/Master.html

...but I don't know that those dates are right either.  Unfortunately, 
Linus didn't date all of his early release notes.

Mike


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Wed Oct  8 00:51:45 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 00:51:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGGEAKCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200810080051.45938.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> The other TCLUG things like beer meetings and Installfests have
> died out, perhaps as a result of the UMN emphasis. 

False.  

Installfests aren't happening because nobody is volunteering to make them 
happen.  I would be more than happy to have your assitance in organizing 
one ;)

> perhaps as a result of the UMN emphasis. The Penguins Unbound
> efforts and installfests deserve much praise, however

That's very gracious of you.   

Perhaps you would like to attend one of our meetings some time?  It might not 
be as bad as you make it out to be.

> > Some people do volunteer to organize meetings, and it can take a lot of
> > work depending on the presentation.  Can you bring yourself to acknowedge
> > that?
> No:  The efforts to base the group at UMN have been damaging and
> stultifying, IMHO.  Many in the community do not want to go there for any
> reason.  

Thanks -  I just wanted to make sure I understood, and I appreciate your 
direct answer.

Jeremy


On Tuesday 07 October 2008 2:13:49 pm Chuck Cole wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeremy [mailto:tclug at lizakowski.com]
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 1:38 PM
> >
> > > There is none.  There is no "group", no leadership, and no way to make
> >
> > Chuck,
> >
> > Some people do volunteer to organize meetings, and it can take a lot of
> > work depending on the presentation.  Can you bring yourself to acknowedge
> > that?
> >
> > Jeremy
>
> No:  The efforts to base the group at UMN have been damaging and
> stultifying, IMHO.  Many in the community do not want to go there for any
> reason.  The other TCLUG things like beer meetings and Installfests have
> died out, perhaps as a result of the UMN emphasis. The Penguins Unbound
> efforts and installfests deserve much praise, however.
>
>
> Chuck




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Wed Oct  8 01:27:38 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 01:27:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> Assuming the leadership will allow it, how hard is it to arrange a vote by
> members on the name change?

It's not so much an issue of 'allow'.  It's more a question of how can we do 
it in a reasonable and generally agreeable fashion.

First, before there can be a vote, there must be an agreement of the choices, 
and also a solid plan on who will do the work.  

As for voting, we thought about all of this a while back during the planning 
meetings:  whether we could organize tclug as a real organization, how voting 
could be done, etc.  

To allow voting, and to keep it fair, we would want to allocate one vote to 
each email address on the list (excluding addresses freshly registered during 
the balloting phase).  

One way is to have everyone send their votes to the list.  It could work, and 
would be transperant.  It also handles people who want to switch votes, and 
it leverages the mailing list to handle authentication.  

Otherwise, there's the old fashioned paper ballot, which requires meeting in 
person (and which skews the demographics to those who attend carbon-based 
meetings).  We could also create an 'electronic voting machine' with ruby or 
php, but that would be a PITA to do it in any fair way.

I think the list traffic caused by voting would be less than the traffic 
generated this week debating the issues, so I would be partial to that 
method.

Here are the questions:

1)  Do we want to take a vote?
2)  what are the choices to be considered?
3)  for each choice that requires action to be taken, who is implementing the 
solution, and how?  
4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that indicates the 
vote clearly,  or via some other method?
5)  Lastly, when is the deadline to begin voting (after which time the options 
should not be changed)?  And when do the polls close?  
  
If we have that info, we can do a vote right here on the list, with no 
additional software to write or ballots to print.  We would all see if it 
passed or not, and those who are implementing the solution could then 
proceed.

Jeremy


On Tuesday 07 October 2008 3:40:37 pm Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Oct 2008, Jeremy wrote:
> > There is a difference between 'no leadership', and decentralized
> > control.  If there were no leadership, none of those things would get
> > done.  In some ways, it reflects the FOSS community, where everyone
> > pitches in to help.
> >
> > This is also why a name change is difficult.  For instance, when we
> > update the website, will we do more than change the logo and text, such
> > as modernize it? We've heard proposals about rewriting the website in
> > drupal, or rails, and all sorts of fancy stuff, but who will support it?
> > And I mean support it for many years.  RIght now it is stable and well
> > supported.
> >
> > From an operational point of view, If we change the name the risk of
> > disrupting the balance that supports tclug.  Yes, the switch sounds easy
> > on paper, like most projects, but I've thought it through, and it would
> > not be trivial.  And that assumes we can reach consensus one way or
> > another.
>
> Thanks for this info, Jeremy.
>
> Here's what I think:
>
> First, modernizing the web site is a separate issue that can be dealt with
> anytime or never.
>
> Second, I think we can continue to use the abbreviation TCLUG even if we
> choose to call the organization "Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group."  I was
> the one who wrote about TCGLUG, not Stallman; he only said that he would
> meet with us if we changed the name to GNU/Linux User Group instead of
> Linux User Group -- he didn't say anything about the abbreviation.  I
> think the abbreviation is a secondary issue and the more important idea is
> to add "GNU" to the official name of the group.
>
> Third, I think a change to "Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group (TCLUG)" will
> not be that hard to do if we retain TCLUG abbreviation.  Someone
> volunteered to update graphics for the web pages.  For web page text,
> something like this will probably work for you if run in appropriate
> directories:
>
> perl -pi.bak -e ''BEGIN{undef $/} ; s#(Linux\s+User)#GNU/$1#g' *.ht{m,ml}
>
> After that we'd probably want to add a few words about GNU and the
> goodness of Free Software.
>
> Assuming the leadership will allow it, how hard is it to arrange a vote by
> members on the name change?
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  8 09:41:29 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 09:41:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jeremy wrote:

>> Assuming the leadership will allow it, how hard is it to arrange a vote 
>> by members on the name change?
>
> It's not so much an issue of 'allow'.  It's more a question of how can 
> we do it in a reasonable and generally agreeable fashion.

OK.  Thanks, first, for all of the work you did on this email message. 
I'll provide some of my answers to your questions:


> Here are the questions:
>
> 1)  Do we want to take a vote?

I think the answer is "yes" because there were many respondents in the 
recent exchange and they were definitely on both sides of the issue.  I 
think we should plan the vote and not vote on whether to vote!  ;-)


> 2)  what are the choices to be considered?

I will write something for my side.  I assume the other side is "keep 
things as they are."


> 3)  for each choice that requires action to be taken, who is implementing the
> solution, and how?

I can do a lot of the work, but I don't have write permissions on the 
files on your server (I don't even have an account), but I can grab the 
files via wget and edit them and the owner can then get them from me.


> 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that indicates the
> vote clearly,  or via some other method?

Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that. 
Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.


> 5)  Lastly, when is the deadline to begin voting (after which time the 
> options should not be changed)?  And when do the polls close?

I think it should be open about 5 days, including some weekend days. 
Most people who are going to vote will do so very soon.

Mike


From rms at gnu.org  Wed Oct  8 09:07:31 2008
From: rms at gnu.org (Richard M. Stallman)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:07:31 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEGHNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEGHNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E1KnZhL-0000fJ-MZ@fencepost.gnu.org>

    Your point would be worth more than 10 seconds consideration if you weren't the one tooting your own horn.  Your pure hubris
    nullifies the good points and severely tarnishes your work.

Does asking you to give us a share of the credit for our work tarnish
it?  I don't think so, but each person can judge that for himself.

    : it's a choice much of the world has already made,

Whatever others decide, the group in Minneapolis can make its own
decisions.  This particular choice is not irrevocable, so the group
can do as it sees fit.




From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Oct  8 10:22:20 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:22:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net><200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com><alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu><200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <047a01c92959$a8f07990$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>


>> 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that
indicates the
>> vote clearly,  or via some other method?
>
> Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that. 
> Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.

The Google docs have a lot of really neat features. One thing you can do
with their spreadsheet docs is make a form that lists several columns like

Timestamp, name, email address, vote choice, ip, etc

Then you can post it as a web page form which is essentially a ballot. Then
send the URL to access the form to the list and everyone can fill in their
info and vote. Then share the entire document as read-only to the internet
at large so everyone can view the results as they come in and watch for
tampering or just simply watch the results in real time. It's actually a
fairly slick setup.


I still think the name change is unnecessary.



From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  8 10:48:07 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 10:48:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:29AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that indicates the
> > vote clearly,  or via some other method?
> 
> Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that. 
> Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.

Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
votes with a few greps and sorts.

Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:

   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Are there any other options that we should consider?

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From haircut at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 11:03:30 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:03:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <1223481810.12940.4.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 01:27 -0500, Jeremy wrote:
> we can do a vote right here on the list, with no additional software
> to write or ballots to print.

Aye, let's adhere to the K.I.S.S. principle for this vote. Here's a
nugget from Fogel supporting this choice:

> Finally, conduct votes in public. There is no need for secrecy or
> anonymity in a vote on matters that have been debated publicly anyway.
> Have each participant post her votes to the project mailing list, so
> that any observer can tally and check the results for herself, and so
> that everything is recorded in the archives. 

From: http://producingoss.com/en/consensus-democracy.html#voting

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From sloncho at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 11:13:03 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:13:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:29AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>> > 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that indicates the
>> > vote clearly,  or via some other method?
>>
>> Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that.
>> Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.
>
> Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
> a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
> their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
> votes with a few greps and sorts.
>
> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
>
>   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> Are there any other options that we should consider?
>
> Cheers,
> florin
>

Or Google Docs Forms. Perfect for the case. I can set up one, if you want.

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Wed Oct  8 11:12:52 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:12:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> 10/8/2008 10:48 AM >>>
On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:29AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that indicates the
> > vote clearly,  or via some other method?
> Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that. 
> Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.
Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
votes with a few greps and sorts.
Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
Are there any other options that we should consider?

----

With all due respect to my fellow TCLUGers, I have no want 
to change TCLUG into an all-GNU groupie group. If you do decide
to recreate TCLUG in this way, I will try to find another group
that:

1) Hasn't decided that GPL and LGPL are the "one, no, two true
  licenses", so much so that they incorporate it into their name.
2) Isn't so obviously and hopelessly devoted to one mans cult 
  of personality. 

:-/






From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Oct  8 11:21:03 2008
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:21:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Mess
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810081119090.17413@dragon>

I'm sorry, but have we been arguing for weeks, decending into flame-wars 
and flooding the list about this name change just so that one person will 
grant us the honour of speaking to us?

That seems a bit crazy to me, so I figure I must've missed something, like 
a free t-shirt giveaway or something.


-Yaron

--


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Oct  8 11:25:13 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:25:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <6298C750-1493-4CBF-B892-D2A450DE6660@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 8, 2008, at 11:12 AM, Troy.A Johnson wrote:

> With all due respect to my fellow TCLUGers, I have no want
> to change TCLUG into an all-GNU groupie group. If you do decide
> to recreate TCLUG in this way, I will try to find another group
> that:
>
> 1) Hasn't decided that GPL and LGPL are the "one, no, two true
>  licenses", so much so that they incorporate it into their name.
> 2) Isn't so obviously and hopelessly devoted to one mans cult
>  of personality.

http://www.tcbug.org/

> :-/


:)

---
Eric Crist






From dru at druswanderings.net  Wed Oct  8 11:06:57 2008
From: dru at druswanderings.net (The Wandering Dru)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:06:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <48ECDAA1.4040803@druswanderings.net>

Florin Iucha wrote:
> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
> 
>    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> 
> Are there any other options that we should consider?

I would say there should be a "Don't care one way or the other" option.
 That way there would be a "present" vote for those of us who really
have no feelings in the matter.

-- 
Andy Moore
The Wandering Dru             GnuPG Key: 9235A5B9
http://www.druswanderings.net

Get nifty TCLUG merchandise at the TCLUG Store!
http://www.cafeshops.com/tclug


From sloncho at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 11:35:28 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:35:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810080935j3fc84e89v48fb72990c63b2de@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 11:13 AM, Sunny <sloncho at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
>> a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
>> their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
>> votes with a few greps and sorts.
>>
>> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
>>
>>   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>>
>> Are there any other options that we should consider?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> florin
>>
>
> Or Google Docs Forms. Perfect for the case. I can set up one, if you want.
>
> --
> Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)
>
> Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
> a pile of scrap.
>

I have created the form, and I'm ready to submit to the group. Are we
ready to make a decision?

Cheers
-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Wed Oct  8 11:35:07 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:35:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <E1KnZhL-0000fJ-MZ@fencepost.gnu.org>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEGHNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<E1KnZhL-0000fJ-MZ@fencepost.gnu.org>
Message-ID: <fa17c9630810080935i38736b1fkcc1258e9d802566d@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 9:07 AM, Richard M. Stallman <rms at gnu.org> wrote:
>    Your point would be worth more than 10 seconds consideration if you weren't the one tooting your own horn.  Your pure hubris
>    nullifies the good points and severely tarnishes your work.
>
> Does asking you to give us a share of the credit for our work tarnish
> it?  I don't think so, but each person can judge that for himself.

In some cultures it does. I come from Palestine, where it is generally
considered to be rude to toot your own horn or to ask for accolades.
however it is also considered rude to withhold these accolades when
they are obviously deserved.

In an ideal world the OS would be GNU, MacOSX is still known as MacOSX
no matter how many additional software packages you install onto it,
free and non-free alike, and as such GNU should also be known as GNU
no matter the kernel. However renaming now is a tough proposition and
overcoming inertia is hard; GNU/Linux (or whatever variant thereof you
want to use) is a mouthful to say and people will shorten it no matter
how hard you try. I think you and GNU should get your accolades; and I
do not think it is right that you get derided for standing up for your
rights, however I also do not think that renaming the group is
practical however much I would love be in the TC GLUG.

maybe a prominent acknowledgments page for the efforts GNU in bringing
us to where we are today. I myself  would most definitely not be where
I am today without them and Linux(the kernel) would probably be just
another footnote in the big book of Unix.


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  8 11:41:46 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:41:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081008164146.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:13:03AM -0500, Sunny wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:29AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> >> > 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that indicates the
> >> > vote clearly,  or via some other method?
> >>
> >> Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that.
> >> Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.
> >
> > Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
> > a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
> > their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
> > votes with a few greps and sorts.
> >
> > Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
> >
> >   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
> >   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
> >   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> >
> > Are there any other options that we should consider?
> 
> Or Google Docs Forms. Perfect for the case. I can set up one, if you want.

I meant any other options to the poll.

Why do you people suggest alternative voting systems when we have a
very good system in place?  Send in your ballot and everybody can see
it and count it.  How do you propose to insure that google docs does
not let somebody to stuff extra votes in or change existing votes?

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Wed Oct  8 11:41:53 2008
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:41:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E89@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

I have been a long time lurker, occasional question asker and I even
attended a few meeting at the U several years ago.

I have no objection to taking a vote to change the name of the group.  I
suspect it is the only way to end this eternal discussion.  (If that
even does it.)

I will be voting for "no change" for several reasons.

I do not like the manner in which this came up.  I feel that it is a
defacto blackmail attempt.  The only way to "guarantee" that Mr.
Stallman will meet with us is to change our name.

I agree with other comments that this group was always "open" to all
varieties of "Linux".  A name change, as suggested, would appear to
limit that openness.  I have no idea which "flavors" of "Linux" use the
GNU utilities and tools and which do not.  Nor do I care.

IMHO "discussions" like this only server to hurt "Linux" in the
marketplace.  Holy wars such as this and those between flavors of
"Linux" alienate many people and businesses that might otherwise take a
closer look at "Linux".

Twin Cities Linux Users Group has been the group's name for a long time.
It is what people who know of us expect to hear and look for.  Brand
names have great value and should not be changed on a whim.

Finally, while I admit to leading a rather sheltered life, the operating
systems that I have been exposed to have not, to the best of my
knowledge, differentiated between the kernel and the tools and utilities
that surround that kernel.  DOS consisted of a kernel and other tools
and utilities.  Data General's AOS and AOS-VS consisted of a kernel and
other tools and utilities.  DEC's VMS consisted of a kernel and other
tools and utilities.  And so on.  I, therefore, believe that to the
majority of the public, including the majority within the industry,
"Linux" refers to the combination of the kernel and the tools and
utilities that surround it.  That is true whether those utilities and
tools are GNU or some other flavor.

To me the issue does not warrant the attention it has already received.

Larry Pint
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 10:48 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
> 
> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:29AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > > 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that
> indicates the
> > > vote clearly,  or via some other method?
> >
> > Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that.
> > Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.
> 
> Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
> a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
> their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
> votes with a few greps and sorts.
> 
> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
> 
>    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> 
> Are there any other options that we should consider?
> 
> Cheers,
> florin
> 
> --
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
>       http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163


From sloncho at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 11:55:38 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:55:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008164146.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081008164146.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810080955h5008e5diaabd91f4d330dedb@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 11:41 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> I meant any other options to the poll.
>
> Why do you people suggest alternative voting systems when we have a
> very good system in place?  Send in your ballot and everybody can see
> it and count it.  How do you propose to insure that google docs does
> not let somebody to stuff extra votes in or change existing votes?
>

GoogleDocs has a history of the edits. We can run the table against
the subscription list (I mean the subscribers to tclug mailing list)
to remove the votes of non-list members. Also, GoogleDoc document can
be shared (with or without editing rights), so everything will be
transparent.

Any other objection, besides that all of us should write their own
scripts to scrape trough emails, and grep for votes? I do not feel
prepared for such a thing, neither have a time.

But ... whatever the group decides.

Let's make first a poll which method should be used for polling :)

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  8 12:12:41 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:12:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:12:52AM -0500, Troy.A Johnson wrote:
> >>> Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> 10/8/2008 10:48 AM >>>
> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:29AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > > 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that indicates the
> > > vote clearly,  or via some other method?
> > Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that. 
> > Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.
> Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
> a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
> their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
> votes with a few greps and sorts.
> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
>    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> Are there any other options that we should consider?
> 
> ----
> 
> With all due respect to my fellow TCLUGers, I have no want 
> to change TCLUG into an all-GNU groupie group. If you do decide
> to recreate TCLUG in this way, I will try to find another group
> that:

Please show more respect than reciting the old clich? and tell us
which of the three above options changes TCLUG in all-GNU grupie group
and how?

> 1) Hasn't decided that GPL and LGPL are the "one, no, two true
>   licenses", so much so that they incorporate it into their name.

What part of the proposal has anything to do with GPL or LGPL?

> 2) Isn't so obviously and hopelessly devoted to one mans cult 
>   of personality. 

Again, there is no proposal (to my knowledge) to change the name to
"RMS's friends" or its ilk.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From haircut at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 12:48:50 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:48:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810080955h5008e5diaabd91f4d330dedb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081008164146.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<e7eeb230810080955h5008e5diaabd91f4d330dedb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223488130.12940.19.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 11:55 -0500, Sunny wrote:
> Any other objection, besides that all of us should write their own
> scripts to scrape trough emails, and grep for votes? I do not feel
> prepared for such a thing, neither have a time.

Email ballots will work fine. I'm happy to tally results--I'd probably
just do it by hand.

On Wed, 2008-10-08 at 01:27 -0500, Jeremy wrote:
> 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that
> indicates the vote clearly,  or via some other method?

Florin's plain text ballot with checkboxes looks excellent. I'm not sure
if the mailing list archive software preserves custom headers.

> 5)  Lastly, when is the deadline to begin voting (after which time the
> options should not be changed)?  And when do the polls close?  

Let's try to get the choices sorted out by Sunday. I propose a voting
period of 24 hours, starting 15-OCT-2008 at 1:00am CDT, running until
16-OCT-2008 at 1:00am CDT.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Wed Oct  8 12:59:24 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:59:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <48ECAEAB.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> 10/8/2008 12:12 PM >>>
>>On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:12:52AM -0500, Troy.A Johnson wrote:
>> With all due respect to my fellow TCLUGers, I have no want 
>> to change TCLUG into an all-GNU groupie group. If you do decide
>> to recreate TCLUG in this way, I will try to find another group
>> that:
>Please show more respect than reciting the old clich? and tell us
>which of the three above options changes TCLUG in all-GNU grupie
group
>and how?
RMS says "I'll meet you if you change your name" and some of us seem
to fall all over ourselves organizing a way to do it. Please excuse me
if 
I do not feel this worthy of much respect. Will we be removing the
'GNU' 
if we get an offer from Linus later on? Can we add other prefixes if
the 
person requesting them is really, really respected by most people on 
the list? 
 
I respect your devotion to RMS and his contribution to the 
world of free software. Where is your respect for people who do not 
agree with you on this topic, and on this list? Out the window, it
seems, 
in a rush to slap the GNU label on the whole group.
 
>> 1) Hasn't decided that GPL and LGPL are the "one, no, two true
>>   licenses", so much so that they incorporate it into their name.
>What part of the proposal has anything to do with GPL or LGPL?
Please forgive me. I am sure I am the only person in the universe that
will recognize any association between GNU and those licenses.

>> 2) Isn't so obviously and hopelessly devoted to one mans cult 
>>   of personality. 
>Again, there is no proposal (to my knowledge) to change the name to
>"RMS's friends" or its ilk.
Again, RMS says jump. So, now we organize a vote for "how high". 
That may not be the way we all see this, but that is how it looks to
me.
*shrug* 
My 2 (or more) cents.
 
Troy

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  8 13:01:41 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:01:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081256590.11407@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Florin Iucha wrote:

> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
>
>   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> Are there any other options that we should consider?


I think we should either limit ourselves to two choices (probably the 
first two) or we should use ranks with a Condorcet system like ranked 
pairs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_Pairs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method#Comparison_with_other_preferential_single-winner_election_methods

The problem is, if 60% of voters were equally divided between the second 
two options, the first option would win, but that might not express 
majority opinion.  That can't happen with two options, nor with a 
Condorcet system.

Mike


From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Wed Oct  8 13:00:53 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:00:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3770.1223483555.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3770.1223483555.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <51713.136.229.5.52.1223488853.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

> Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 11:12:52 -0500
> From: "Troy.A Johnson" <troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us>

> With all due respect to my fellow TCLUGers, I have no want
> to change TCLUG into an all-GNU groupie group. If you do decide
> to recreate TCLUG in this way, I will try to find another group
> that:
>
> 1) Hasn't decided that GPL and LGPL are the "one, no, two true
>   licenses", so much so that they incorporate it into their name.
> 2) Isn't so obviously and hopelessly devoted to one mans cult
>   of personality.

Troy,

I feel I have to speak up and say the name change has nothing to do with
the license. I know that RMS certainly advocates the license, but as I see
it, the name change is to recognize the software that goes along with the
kernel to make a useful system.

We should remain a group of Linux (and GNU) SOFTWARE enthusiasts, users,
advocates, developers and testers. If the name change (which I'll say
again that I'm against) gets someone to look at the license they choose
when writing software, that's a good thing, but a happy side-effect.

While there may be a need for users of the license to form groups... I
don't think many of us would be interested.

Chris





From drue at therub.org  Wed Oct  8 13:12:35 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:12:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>

   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu  Wed Oct  8 13:20:57 2008
From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:20:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <36376.64.83.234.193.1223490057.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 10:48:07AM -0500, Florin Iucha wrote:
>
> Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
> a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
> their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
> votes with a few greps and sorts.
>
> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
>
>    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

If there are going to be more than two choices, then we also need
to decide on a voting system. Do we want straight plurality? Or           
some sort of ranked or rated voting system?                           
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system

While plurality is nice and easy, I am not sure that it is the
best choice for a vote like this, there may be people that like one
choice, are OK with a second, and hate the third.

-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List
(TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/
Never laugh at live dragons  |




From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Oct  8 13:39:00 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:39:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>

   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

---
Eric Crist






From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Oct  8 13:42:09 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:42:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <28D06458-A9C0-46C3-9D35-9F5BA48B78C4@bitstream.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<6298C750-1493-4CBF-B892-D2A450DE6660@secure-computing.net>
	<28D06458-A9C0-46C3-9D35-9F5BA48B78C4@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <F7B17943-3ED1-4159-84CB-C4B603171D64@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 8, 2008, at 1:29 PM, Brady Hegberg wrote:

> On Oct 8, 2008, at 11:25 AM, Eric F Crist <ecrist at secure- 
> computing.net> wrote:

>> http://www.tcbug.org/
>> :)

> Traitor!!  We have an evil BSD interloper in our midst! ;-)


I'm sure you all knew that long ago, however, my loyalty has been with  
the 'evil BSD' all along.  I'm here because it's fun to mingle with  
the peasants...

:D
---
Eric Crist






From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 13:51:42 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:51:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Wednesday October 8 2008 13:39:00 Eric F Crist wrote:
>    [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> ---
> Eric Crist

What is the purpose of this constant rudeness? You read the same 
list I read, so I assume you know that the vote hasn't started yet, 
no decision's been made on how the votes will be cast or counted, 
when it'll start, when it'll end. I can only assume that you're just 
doing this to be a jerk. Come on.

-pete
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From andyschmid at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 13:50:55 2008
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:50:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a30810081150t32bb0b10g6c109f6f0678d9a@mail.gmail.com>

  [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Eric F Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net>wrote:

>   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> ---
> Eric Crist
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Wed Oct  8 13:48:57 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:48:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <48ECBA49.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

 [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
 [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
 [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Troy Johnson





From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 13:51:51 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:51:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810081151gc13985r8e4a0550f61c656e@mail.gmail.com>

  [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Nick Scholtes
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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 13:54:34 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:54:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a30810081150t32bb0b10g6c109f6f0678d9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<7b7c42a30810081150t32bb0b10g6c109f6f0678d9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250810081154n2f209918h3c5c965441ceea49@mail.gmail.com>

  [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 1:50 PM, Andy Schmid <andyschmid at gmail.com> wrote:

>   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Eric F Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net>wrote:
>
>>    [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>>   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>>
>> ---
>> Eric Crist
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Wed Oct  8 13:57:31 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:57:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <51713.136.229.5.52.1223488853.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
References: <mailman.3770.1223483555.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<51713.136.229.5.52.1223488853.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <48ECBC4B.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> On 10/8/2008 at 1:00 PM, in message
<51713.136.229.5.52.1223488853.squirrel at alpha.twp-llc.com>, "Chris Schumann"
<cschumann at twp-llc.com> wrote:
> I feel I have to speak up and say the name change has nothing to do with
> the license.

I understand that, but I also do not relish explaining that
to new user on a TC GNU/Linux User Group email list.

Hours of entertainment for some, perhaps, but pretty 
annoying to others. Maybe I am alone in this respect. 
*shrug* 





From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Wed Oct  8 13:57:02 2008
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:57:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E92@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

    [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Larry Pint
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of Dan Rue
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 1:13 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
> 
>    [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From thurianknight at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 13:53:29 2008
From: thurianknight at gmail.com (Dave Sherman)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:53:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <7bdea6e30810081153p4bedab54y81813113edc97cc0@mail.gmail.com>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

-- 
Dave Sherman

"Who is John Galt?" -- Ayn Rand


From erikerik at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 13:59:45 2008
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:59:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <fc40260f0810081159i784b12e9k4e5074be50a27986@mail.gmail.com>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 14:06:16 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:06:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>

Honestly, I stopped bothering with reading the spam^h^h^h^h discussion about
TC *G* LUG, and it since it looks like so far 100% of the votes are against
a name change, hopefully they will guide the direction of further
discussion.

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 1:51 PM, p.daniels <teeahr1 at gmail.com> wrote:

>  On Wednesday October 8 2008 13:39:00 Eric F Crist wrote:
>
> > [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>
> > [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>
> > [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> >
>
> > ---
>
> > Eric Crist
>
> What is the purpose of this constant rudeness? You read the same list I
> read, so I assume you know that the vote hasn't started yet, no decision's
> been made on how the votes will be cast or counted, when it'll start, when
> it'll end. I can only assume that you're just doing this to be a jerk. Come
> on.
>
> -pete
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Wed Oct  8 14:03:29 2008
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:03:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E93@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

Or maybe just to get it over with already!

 

Larry

 

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of p.daniels
Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 1:52 PM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote

 

On Wednesday October 8 2008 13:39:00 Eric F Crist wrote:

> [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG

> [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG

> [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

>

> ---

> Eric Crist

What is the purpose of this constant rudeness? You read the same list I
read, so I assume you know that the vote hasn't started yet, no
decision's been made on how the votes will be cast or counted, when
it'll start, when it'll end. I can only assume that you're just doing
this to be a jerk. Come on.

-pete

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From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  8 14:11:02 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:11:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] FW:  Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEBDCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Chuck
_______________________________________________



From rbrown at rawmindz.com  Wed Oct  8 13:50:24 2008
From: rbrown at rawmindz.com (Robert Brown)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:50:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <916e208f0810081150o3b7a4a2bga42dc620ae68a015@mail.gmail.com>

[ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Wed Oct  8 14:12:24 2008
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:12:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081256590.11407@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081256590.11407@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1223493144.23452.1278251211@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:01:41 -0500 (CDT), "Mike Miller"
<mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> said:
> I think we should either limit ourselves to two choices (probably the 
> first two) or we should use ranks with a Condorcet system like ranked 
> pairs:

It seems to me that while we've heard a lot of heated opinions, there
hasn't been any kind of organized debate on the merits of a name change
(not saying there hasn't been some valuable arguments). Prior to doing
any kind of vote, I move that a new topic be started.
The purpose of this topic is for each person, who has a relevant
argument, to present it. I also suggest that each person who wants to
say something only submit one email stating their arguments.
That way we have a collection of the arguments for and against a name
change that can be easily compiled and read by those who wish to make an
informed decision.


From nmarkon at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 14:16:04 2008
From: nmarkon at gmail.com (Noah Markon)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:16:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E92@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E92@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <f45d0cb0810081216i235e9b5s84550bcaf9625cec@mail.gmail.com>

 [] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [X ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


From tpenney at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 14:06:33 2008
From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:06:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <7bdea6e30810081153p4bedab54y81813113edc97cc0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<7bdea6e30810081153p4bedab54y81813113edc97cc0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5c596d0e0810081206g1891baa7pd0b933963486f26b@mail.gmail.com>

  [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


-- 
Tom Penney
612-920-3562


From trnja001 at umn.edu  Wed Oct  8 14:08:26 2008
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:08:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810081151gc13985r8e4a0550f61c656e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<a2a149b80810081151gc13985r8e4a0550f61c656e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48ED052A.7090004@umn.edu>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG



From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 14:24:43 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:24:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Can anyone micro-solder?
Message-ID: <200810081424.46485.teeahr1@gmail.com>

I've got an iAudio player with a loose headphone jack. I 
dismantled it and I'm 97% sure the problem is that one of the 
micro-solder beads connecting the jack to the board let go (I 
mean, I'm sure it broke, I'm 97% sure that's the issue with my 
headphones). Some Googling has led me to the conclusion that 
this is a common problem with my model. Is there anyone in the 
south mpls/midtown area that would be willing to put a drop of 
solder on this thing? I'd be more than willing to come to you and 
bring you a six-pack of your beverage of choice in recompense. 
(Hey, beats sending it to California).

TIA-
pete
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From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  8 14:32:40 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:32:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <20081008193240.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>

    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
    [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  8 14:16:54 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:16:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <48ECAEAB.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48ECAEAB.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081414270.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Troy.A Johnson wrote:

> Will we be removing the 'GNU' if we get an offer from Linus later on?

Why would he want us to remove the GNU?  He does not think that it is 
essential to include the "GNU" in GNU/Linux, but I haven't heard that he 
wants people *not* to refer to GNU/Linux.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  8 14:24:49 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:24:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jordan Peacock wrote:

> Honestly, I stopped bothering with reading the spam^h^h^h^h discussion 
> about TC *G* LUG, and it since it looks like so far 100% of the votes 
> are against a name change, hopefully they will guide the direction of 
> further discussion.

That was 100% of the "votes" by the inconsiderate members, like yourself, 
who were not told to vote yet but are cluttering the list with wasteful 
nonsense.  So far there has been no vote.

I have noticed a strong tendency toward inaccuracy, hyperbole, boorishness 
and outright craziness coming from the anti-change constituency.  What's 
wrong with you people?  Why can't you just wait, then vote "no"?  Please 
don't answer -- those were rhetorical questions.

Mike


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Oct  8 14:22:08 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:22:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCEB0BB3-37BB-4378-AA9D-60792B4CCE0B@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 8, 2008, at 1:51 PM, p.daniels wrote:

> On Wednesday October 8 2008 13:39:00 Eric F Crist wrote:
> > [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
> > [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
> > [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> >
> > ---
> > Eric Crist
> What is the purpose of this constant rudeness? You read the same  
> list I read, so I assume you know that the vote hasn't started yet,  
> no decision's been made on how the votes will be cast or counted,  
> when it'll start, when it'll end. I can only assume that you're just  
> doing this to be a jerk. Come on.
> -pete

Hey Pete,

I wasn't the first to send this.  I think it is *you* who is the  
jerk.  Sir.

Good day!

I SAY GOOD DAY!

:P

---
Eric Crist






From canito at dalan.us  Wed Oct  8 14:43:09 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:43:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081008144309.ppz90mo7vo4g804k@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>:

> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jordan Peacock wrote:
>
>> Honestly, I stopped bothering with reading the spam^h^h^h^h discussion
>> about TC *G* LUG, and it since it looks like so far 100% of the votes
>> are against a name change, hopefully they will guide the direction of
>> further discussion.
>
> That was 100% of the "votes" by the inconsiderate members, like yourself,
> who were not told to vote yet but are cluttering the list with wasteful
> nonsense.  So far there has been no vote.
>
> I have noticed a strong tendency toward inaccuracy, hyperbole, boorishness
> and outright craziness coming from the anti-change constituency.  What's
> wrong with you people?  Why can't you just wait, then vote "no"?  Please
> don't answer -- those were rhetorical questions.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

Mike

My bad! I got a call from a friend of my lobbying for my vote. And to  
be honest, I did it blindly not knowing people were doing this to be  
obnoxious...

Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding...

David


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From adam at whee.org  Wed Oct  8 14:16:26 2008
From: adam at whee.org (Adam Maloney)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:16:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a30810081150t32bb0b10g6c109f6f0678d9a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<7b7c42a30810081150t32bb0b10g6c109f6f0678d9a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.60.0810081414190.5146@titan>

  [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
  [X] Rudy Boschwitz

Adam Maloney


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  8 14:21:59 2008
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:21:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] A Note On Perspective
Message-ID: <119261.56349.qm@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

        
A Note On Perspective 

I am an old coot who was working with computer development long before many of those reading this were born. I was there when a small computer would fill a large room with racks of vacuum tubes, ferrite memory cores, and hundreds of miles of wire. Copious amounts of power were consumed, and heat generated. These monsters were capable of amazing mathematical feats such as addition and subtraction of small whole numbers. The transistor was to come many years in the future, and the IC years more. Yet how many of you can name a handful of the pioneers involved? I would guess that none of you would know me, but my name is recorded in the annals of computer history. 

Although I eventually became primarily a hardware person, in the beginning there was no distinction. We had to invent both the software and the hardware. We had no computers to help us, we used slide rules. We were pioneers with nothing to build on, no one to ask, and there were no books on the subject. There was a day when everyone involved in computer development literally knew everything there was to know about the subject. Is anyone up to that challenge today? 

Wow! You know, until writing this, I had never thought about the amazing advancement in computers. It all just seems to have been a long, slow, logical and natural progression. And I now realize that my contributions, although they may seem primitive by your standards, built the foundation for the technology we have available today. In fact, if it had not been for the pioneers like me, it's possible that Richard Stallman may have become a janitor. Hey, I'm partially responsible for his success! 

Does anyone know the name of the person who invented the wheel? Does anyone care? 
--

The stallman zealots are going to change the name anyway, so give it up people. But then their goal is not just to change the name (thereby guaranteeing the opportunity to wash his feet, sprinkle his with expensive perfume, or to just touch his robe), but to convert everyone to the church of rms. I have gone from admiring him for his accomplishments to resenting him for his tactics and (obvious to non zealots) giant ego. 

Question (rhetorical):  If stallman and GNU/Linux are so great, why won't it work with 4 of my hardware devices? Perhaps stallman should spend more time recruiting hardware manufacturers, instead of worshipers. I think I will start the Church of Bill Gates. At least he gets stuff done.

Change the name. Just do it. Or should I say "git 'er done"?

Peace out,

Robert




























































[fiction]


From canito at dalan.us  Wed Oct  8 14:24:41 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:24:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <f45d0cb0810081216i235e9b5s84550bcaf9625cec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E92@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
	<f45d0cb0810081216i235e9b5s84550bcaf9625cec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081008142441.vh5z4dklggo4s4w0@mail.dalan.us>

[] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG




----------------------------------------------------------------
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From rbrown at rawmindz.com  Wed Oct  8 14:57:41 2008
From: rbrown at rawmindz.com (Robert Brown)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 14:57:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <916e208f0810081257p4fd8a961k62f5f9c348a42c63@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry, the ball started rolling.  Debating on how we should manage the
vote at this level strikes me as the worst kind of organization.
Let's get on with it and get it over with.  If whatever, whoever,
whichever officers exist here want us to do it over, let them say so.
Otherwise, it appears to me that some clearer picture of what the
group wants is coming to the fore.

"like yourself, who were not told to vote yet but are cluttering the
list with wasteful nonsense."

yeah, no kidding...  wasteful nonsense.

i'm not in the habit of waiting to be told to vote, not this season.

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jordan Peacock wrote:
>
>> Honestly, I stopped bothering with reading the spam^h^h^h^h discussion
>> about TC *G* LUG, and it since it looks like so far 100% of the votes
>> are against a name change, hopefully they will guide the direction of
>> further discussion.
>
> That was 100% of the "votes" by the inconsiderate members, like yourself,
> who were not told to vote yet but are cluttering the list with wasteful
> nonsense.  So far there has been no vote.
>
> I have noticed a strong tendency toward inaccuracy, hyperbole, boorishness
> and outright craziness coming from the anti-change constituency.  What's
> wrong with you people?  Why can't you just wait, then vote "no"?  Please
> don't answer -- those were rhetorical questions.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  8 15:04:19 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:04:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEBGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 2:25 PM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
>
>
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jordan Peacock wrote:
>
> > Honestly, I stopped bothering with reading the spam^h^h^h^h discussion
> > about TC *G* LUG, and it since it looks like so far 100% of the votes
> > are against a name change, hopefully they will guide the direction of
> > further discussion.
>
> That was 100% of the "votes" by the inconsiderate members, like yourself,
> who were not told to vote yet but are cluttering the list with wasteful
> nonsense.  So far there has been no vote.
>
> I have noticed a strong tendency toward inaccuracy, hyperbole, boorishness
> and outright craziness coming from the anti-change constituency.  What's
> wrong with you people?  Why can't you just wait, then vote "no"?  Please
> don't answer -- those were rhetorical questions.

TCLUG has no "decider": nobody has the authority to say when a vote is valid or invalid.  You don't.  Your claim of a voting window
is just more of the cacophony by non-deciders.  :-)    If we must have such poppycock as arbitrary voting windows, we must assume
it's a ploy to stack the vote.

That suggests that we submit votes daily or hourly until this goes away  :-)



Chuck



From haircut at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 15:18:05 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:18:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Friday
Message-ID: <1223497085.23004.13.camel@localhost>

Friday, 11:30am, Duffy's Dinkytown Pizza. Yummy pizza by the slice, and
nerdy chit-chat. http://chow.com/places/7724

Reply or give a shout on IRC if you think you might be able to make it.

Not within throwing distance of Dinkytown? Start your own impromptu
lunch!

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From auditodd at comcast.net  Wed Oct  8 15:21:48 2008
From: auditodd at comcast.net (auditodd at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 20:21:48 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Mess
Message-ID: <100820082021.5834.48ED165C00013D54000016CA22028887440B0B019B070B9A0E@comcast.net>

I'll second this viewpoint.

RMS just isn't worth it. Period.

--
==========
Todd Young

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
> I'm sorry, but have we been arguing for weeks, decending into flame-wars 
> and flooding the list about this name change just so that one person will 
> grant us the honour of speaking to us?
> 
> That seems a bit crazy to me, so I figure I must've missed something, like 
> a free t-shirt giveaway or something.
> 
> -Yaron


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Wed Oct  8 15:22:52 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:22:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> I have noticed a strong tendency toward inaccuracy, hyperbole, boorishness 
> and outright craziness coming from the anti-change constituency.  What's 
> wrong with you people?  Why can't you just wait, then vote "no"?  Please 
> don't answer -- those were rhetorical questions.

  Honestly (and sorry to answer a rhetorical question), I think the 
so-called "anti-change constituency" just wants to get the vote out of 
the way, and end this drawn-out discussion.  It's getting to be 
repetitive, unproductive, and terribly time-consuming to no particular end.
  I genuinely don't care what happens at this point; I'm just tired of 
hearing it.  I know I'm not the only one.

      Jima


From dniesen at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 15:24:54 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:24:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Friday
In-Reply-To: <1223497085.23004.13.camel@localhost>
References: <1223497085.23004.13.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70810081324w1f464c2awca824b249fcf64a5@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Adam Monsen <haircut at gmail.com> wrote:

> Friday, 11:30am, Duffy's Dinkytown Pizza. Yummy pizza by the slice, and
> nerdy chit-chat. http://chow.com/places/7724
>
> Reply or give a shout on IRC if you think you might be able to make it.
>
> Not within throwing distance of Dinkytown? Start your own impromptu
> lunch!
>
> --
> Adam Monsen
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>

I may show but you can't make me eat their pizza.  Yiiick.


-- 
Donovan Niesen
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From josh at tcbug.org  Wed Oct  8 15:26:07 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 16:26:07 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <36376.64.83.234.193.1223490057.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<36376.64.83.234.193.1223490057.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48ED175F.3000407@tcbug.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jim Crumley wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 10:48:07AM -0500, Florin Iucha wrote:
>> Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
>> a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
>> their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
>> votes with a few greps and sorts.
>>
>> Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
>>
>>    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> 
> If there are going to be more than two choices, then we also need
> to decide on a voting system. Do we want straight plurality? Or           
> some sort of ranked or rated voting system?                           
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system
> 
> While plurality is nice and easy, I am not sure that it is the
> best choice for a vote like this, there may be people that like one
> choice, are OK with a second, and hate the third.
> 

What is going to happen to my vote?  I founded and run the Twin Cities
BSD User Group, and really don't care what happens to TCLUG, yet here I
am on the mailing list.  Does that mean I get a voice?

I've had the (mis)fortune of meeting RMS already which to me seems to be
the only reason you'd change the name of TCLUG.  In reality he's juts
another zealot, fixed in his belief that the world is black and white
and he's right and anyone who disagrees with him is wrong.

Given the chance I'd vote for the name change just so some of you get
the chance to meet the man you idolize so much.

- --
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

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From johntrammell at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 15:34:38 2008
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:34:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0810081334n33bd32fer50f0abb38c4a3ecf@mail.gmail.com>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Wed Oct  8 15:34:41 2008
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:34:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEBGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGKEBGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1223498081.7473.1278266359@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:04:19 -0500, "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
said:
> TCLUG has no "decider": nobody has the authority to say when a vote is
> valid or invalid.  You don't.  Your claim of a voting window
> is just more of the cacophony by non-deciders.  :-)    If we must have
> such poppycock as arbitrary voting windows, we must assume
> it's a ploy to stack the vote.

The ultimate deciders are those who would implement any potential change
whether we like it or not or think it's fair or not.
At the same time having an organized vote with a window, rather than
being poppycock, is necessary to ensure that voting is done in a fair
manner and that people are allowed the time to get informed and
formulate their opinions prior to having the pressure of rushed vote.
What I'm seeing at this point is mob rule, and I for one don't think
that a smart way of making decisions.


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 15:38:23 2008
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:38:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <36376.64.83.234.193.1223490057.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<36376.64.83.234.193.1223490057.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0810081338u18f494d0q139e928ce5bf88b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Jim Crumley
<crumley at fields.space.umn.edu> wrote:
> If there are going to be more than two choices, then we also need
> to decide on a voting system. Do we want straight plurality? Or
> some sort of ranked or rated voting system?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system

I think we should use some sort of approval voting system.  But to be
fair in deciding which voting system to use, I think we should vote on
it.

Uh-oh.


From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 15:47:24 2008
From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (Benjamin Gramlich)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:47:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <e5f57ac80810081347h1cc9b56ft61b85b3e56efd5e4@mail.gmail.com>

I think the problem with the name change is the Richard Stallman started the
FSF and the GNU OS in order to give people the freedom to do with their IP
what they wished. And now he's asking us to change the name of our group
before he'll come spend an evening with us. It seems a bit hypocritical to
me. We've got a hard enough time convincing people to use a GNU/Linux OS
without trying to explain the damn name.

Why don't we just change the name until the end of October and then change
it back to TCLUG?

bg
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  8 15:51:16 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:51:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <1223498081.7473.1278266359@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCIEIPNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Isaac Atilano [mailto:aristophrenic at warpmail.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 3:35 PM
>
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:04:19 -0500, "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
> said:
> > TCLUG has no "decider": nobody has the authority to say when a vote is
> > valid or invalid.  You don't.  Your claim of a voting window
> > is just more of the cacophony by non-deciders.  :-)    If we must have
> > such poppycock as arbitrary voting windows, we must assume
> > it's a ploy to stack the vote.
>
> What I'm seeing at this point is mob rule, and I for one don't think
> that a smart way of making decisions.

It's as smart as TCLUG gets: there is no organization, it has no officers, no routines, and no substance except this.  It's just a
list for sharing info, and "undefined" as strictly any peer to any peer any time.  It was smarter in earlier days.


Chuck



From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Wed Oct  8 15:50:53 2008
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:50:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <916e208f0810081257p4fd8a961k62f5f9c348a42c63@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<916e208f0810081257p4fd8a961k62f5f9c348a42c63@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810081550.54599.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>

When we do vote, I hope people will be able to weight their votes with a 0-10 
priority.  For example...
Lets say Joe wants a name change.  He really wants the name to be changed to 
Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group, but he also thinks the abbreviation TCLUG 
is good.  He may vote:
[0] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[10] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[6] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

This would make it fairer, because many people in support of a name change 
would be fine with either the second or the third option, but would perfer 
one over the other.

P.S. - I am not by any means saying this is the final ballot.  There should 
probably be a name nomination before any voting takes place.  Any nominated 
name would appear on the ballot.  It seems, though, that only three names 
have been informally nominated so far.


From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Wed Oct  8 16:02:12 2008
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:02:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <e5f57ac80810081347h1cc9b56ft61b85b3e56efd5e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
	<e5f57ac80810081347h1cc9b56ft61b85b3e56efd5e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810081602.12798.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>

> I think the problem with the name change is the Richard Stallman started
> the FSF and the GNU OS in order to give people the freedom to do with their
> IP what they wished. And now he's asking us to change the name of our group
> before he'll come spend an evening with us. It seems a bit hypocritical to
> me. We've got a hard enough time convincing people to use a GNU/Linux OS
> without trying to explain the damn name.

He never said, "You must change the name or I will sue you."  He is giving us 
the option to chose.  He never said, "You must use free software," he 
said, "You can choose between Free Software and Proprietary Software."

I also know, though, that there are people on this list who want the name to 
be changed regardless of whether Stallman will have dinner with us.


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Oct  8 16:14:40 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:14:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <e5f57ac80810081347h1cc9b56ft61b85b3e56efd5e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
	<e5f57ac80810081347h1cc9b56ft61b85b3e56efd5e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081008211440.GV3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 03:47:24PM -0500, Benjamin Gramlich wrote:
> I think the problem with the name change is the Richard Stallman started the
> FSF and the GNU OS in order to give people the freedom to do with their IP
> what they wished. And now he's asking us to change the name of our group
> before he'll come spend an evening with us.

The problem is people can write, but not read.  Read Mike's e-mail
again.  Let me quote it, in case you lost it:

   So here's the big thing:  Stallman isn't saying that he won't meet with us
   under other conditions, but he is saying that *promises* to meet with us
   only if we change the name of TCLUG to Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group
   (TCGLUG?).  He wants the GNU in there!

So, P (change the name) -> Q (RMS meets with us)  .  How can you twist this
around to !P -> !Q is beyond me.

>                                             It seems a bit hypocritical to
> me. We've got a hard enough time convincing people to use a GNU/Linux OS
> without trying to explain the damn name.
> 
> Why don't we just change the name until the end of October and then change
> it back to TCLUG?

Look up hypocritical in the dictionary, before you use it again.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tclug at john.holmstadt.com  Wed Oct  8 15:58:58 2008
From: tclug at john.holmstadt.com (John Holmstadt)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 15:58:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <48ED1F12.4020609@john.holmstadt.com>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG



From airchia at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 16:59:29 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:59:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008144309.ppz90mo7vo4g804k@mail.dalan.us>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081008144309.ppz90mo7vo4g804k@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810081459q311d55b1mff5ed3f6b3dd4acf@mail.gmail.com>

Same here. I wasn't trying to be rude or obnoxious. I saw several of these
and thought the vote had already started.

Nick Scholtes


On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 2:43 PM, David Alanis <canito at dalan.us> wrote:

> Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>:
>
> > On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jordan Peacock wrote:
> >
> >> Honestly, I stopped bothering with reading the spam^h^h^h^h discussion
> >> about TC *G* LUG, and it since it looks like so far 100% of the votes
> >> are against a name change, hopefully they will guide the direction of
> >> further discussion.
> >
> > That was 100% of the "votes" by the inconsiderate members, like yourself,
> > who were not told to vote yet but are cluttering the list with wasteful
> > nonsense.  So far there has been no vote.
> >
> > I have noticed a strong tendency toward inaccuracy, hyperbole,
> boorishness
> > and outright craziness coming from the anti-change constituency.  What's
> > wrong with you people?  Why can't you just wait, then vote "no"?  Please
> > don't answer -- those were rhetorical questions.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
> Mike
>
> My bad! I got a call from a friend of my lobbying for my vote. And to
> be honest, I did it blindly not knowing people were doing this to be
> obnoxious...
>
> Again, I apologize for the misunderstanding...
>
> David
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From jeff at digitalguy.net  Wed Oct  8 17:11:28 2008
From: jeff at digitalguy.net (Jeffrey Lehman)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:11:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <20081008221128.GA28739@abby.digitalguy.net>

    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
    [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

-- 
Jeffrey Lehman
895088 at fwd.pulver.com
sip:jeff at digitalguy.net
https://digitalguy.net
PGP Key fingerprint = 3087 CED0 57F7 3BD3 14E7  969B EE14 BADA D619 8CF5
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From markdeb.browne at comcast.net  Wed Oct  8 17:44:57 2008
From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (markdeb.browne at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 22:44:57 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <100820082244.29196.48ED37E900093A430000720C22092246270A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Mark Browne


From thecubic at thecubic.net  Wed Oct  8 17:49:32 2008
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 17:49:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008211440.GV3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>	<e5f57ac80810081347h1cc9b56ft61b85b3e56efd5e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081008211440.GV3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <48ED38FC.2030806@thecubic.net>

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From thecubic at thecubic.net  Wed Oct  8 17:51:50 2008
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (thecubic at thecubic.net)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:51:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <100820082244.29196.48ED37E900093A430000720C22092246270A0299019D0DD20D
	0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>
References: <100820082244.29196.48ED37E900093A430000720C22092246270A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <51554.192.168.5.10.1223506310.squirrel@pollux>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

David Carlson



From klieber at gentoo.org  Wed Oct  8 17:47:11 2008
From: klieber at gentoo.org (Kurt Lieber)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 17:47:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008193240.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20081008193240.GT3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <82d43d110810081547l5c741643p1fe588b6d7d603e5@mail.gmail.com>

   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
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From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Wed Oct  8 18:58:33 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 18:58:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <200810081858.37620.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Wednesday October 8 2008 15:22:52 Jima wrote:
> Mike Miller wrote:
> > I have noticed a strong tendency toward inaccuracy, hyperbole,
> > boorishness and outright craziness coming from the anti-change
> > constituency.  What's wrong with you people?  Why can't you just wait,
> > then vote "no"?  Please don't answer -- those were rhetorical questions.
>
>   Honestly (and sorry to answer a rhetorical question), I think the
> so-called "anti-change constituency" just wants to get the vote out of
> the way, and end this drawn-out discussion.  It's getting to be
> repetitive, unproductive, and terribly time-consuming to no particular end.
>   I genuinely don't care what happens at this point; I'm just tired of
> hearing it.  I know I'm not the only one.
>
>       Jima
>

That's not true. If only for the sake of learning to do these procedural 
things that every organization must at one time or another deal with in some 
form, this is imho a good conversation (the one about how the vote would be 
conducted, that is).

-p.
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Wed Oct  8 19:17:54 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 19:17:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <200810081858.37620.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810081858.37620.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48ED4DB2.1070102@beer.tclug.org>

p.daniels wrote:
> That's not true. If only for the sake of learning to do these procedural 
> things that every organization must at one time or another deal with in 
> some form, this is imho a good conversation (the one about how the vote 
> would be conducted, that is).

  There are a number of people within the group fully capable of running 
a meeting following Robert's Rules of Order.  That doesn't, however, 
imply that we should or even remotely want to do so.
  Is there any purpose that making the group more official would serve? 
  Do we really need administrative overhead that people are just going 
to get tired of doing?

      Jima


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct  8 19:49:44 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 19:49:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48ED4DB2.1070102@beer.tclug.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810081858.37620.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<48ED4DB2.1070102@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081945140.22331@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jima wrote:

>  Is there any purpose that making the group more official would serve?
>  Do we really need administrative overhead that people are just going
> to get tired of doing?


If you have an administration, then people can take turns doing the work, 
maybe on an annual rotating basis, and they can get credit for doing good 
things.  You wouldn't want lifetime appointments because that would 
certainly lead to burnout.  Annual elections would be the way to go.  Of 
course, you would then need a good way to do voting.

I am *seriously* interested in developing good, web-based software for 
rank-based voting (that is, if there are more than two options, the 
options are ranked).  I already have developed some software for analyzing 
the ranks to decide winners.  If anyone else is interested in this, please 
let me know.

Mike


From nospam at hiltonbsd.com  Wed Oct  8 14:32:17 2008
From: nospam at hiltonbsd.com (Stephen Hilton)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 14:32:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>

Dan Rue wrote:
>    [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>   

   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


-Stephen Hilton


From markdeb.browne at comcast.net  Wed Oct  8 20:47:04 2008
From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (Mark Browne)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:47:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081945140.22331@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org><alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu><48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org><200810081858.37620.teeahr1@gmail.com><48ED4DB2.1070102@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081945140.22331@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <9A644FF6082745BB97E96C0FAF6B1072@AMD64>

Mike,

I just typed "voting" into sourceforge and got 143 hits.
Have you checked to see if what you are looking for has already been done?

Mark Browne
  

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org 
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 7:50 PM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
> 
> On Wed, 8 Oct 2008, Jima wrote:
> 
> >  Is there any purpose that making the group more official 
> would serve?
> >  Do we really need administrative overhead that people are 
> just going 
> > to get tired of doing?
> 
> 
> If you have an administration, then people can take turns 
> doing the work, maybe on an annual rotating basis, and they 
> can get credit for doing good things.  You wouldn't want 
> lifetime appointments because that would certainly lead to 
> burnout.  Annual elections would be the way to go.  Of 
> course, you would then need a good way to do voting.
> 
> I am *seriously* interested in developing good, web-based 
> software for rank-based voting (that is, if there are more 
> than two options, the options are ranked).  I already have 
> developed some software for analyzing the ranks to decide 
> winners.  If anyone else is interested in this, please let me know.
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota 
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org 
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tclug at jfoo.org  Wed Oct  8 21:39:42 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 21:39:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081945140.22331@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>	<200810081858.37620.teeahr1@gmail.com>	<48ED4DB2.1070102@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081945140.22331@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48ED6EEE.4010807@jfoo.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> I am *seriously* interested in developing good, web-based software for 
> rank-based voting (that is, if there are more than two options, the 
> options are ranked).  I already have developed some software for analyzing 
> the ranks to decide winners.  If anyone else is interested in this, please 
> let me know.

I have some experience with this (see www.yadb.com - a CD database that
corrects itself based on user input). I'm not sure if you are interested
in the current situation (name change vote) or a broader application...

j


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Oct  8 22:10:52 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 22:10:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081945140.22331@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48ED169C.3040900@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810081858.37620.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<48ED4DB2.1070102@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081945140.22331@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <9605E021-DB55-42EE-AC56-0245F8A6855A@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 8, 2008, at 7:49 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> I am *seriously* interested in developing good, web-based software for
> rank-based voting (that is, if there are more than two options, the
> options are ranked).  I already have developed some software for  
> analyzing
> the ranks to decide winners.  If anyone else is interested in this,  
> please
> let me know.


Yeah, but then there's the possibility of skewing the voting and such,  
if it's not transparent.  I think such a thing should simply be left  
in the open, to the mailing list.

---
Eric Crist






From me at alanpalazzolo.com  Wed Oct  8 12:41:06 2008
From: me at alanpalazzolo.com (Alan Palazzolo)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 12:41:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Survey] TCLUG Name Change
In-Reply-To: <20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810080936130.27162@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>	<48EC95B4.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <48ECF0B2.3020103@alanpalazzolo.com>

This whole thing has become so ridiculous.  Can we please use technology
(the thing we like so much) correctly:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=CD7GazPY6zgYU6KRpyR9Qw_3d_3d

-- 
Alan
http://alanpalazzolo.com/


From rms at gnu.org  Wed Oct  8 22:00:34 2008
From: rms at gnu.org (Richard M. Stallman)
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 23:00:34 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman wants to meet us, if we are TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <fa17c9630810080935i38736b1fkcc1258e9d802566d@mail.gmail.com>
	(tclug@beitsahour.net)
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCAEGHNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<E1KnZhL-0000fJ-MZ@fencepost.gnu.org>
	<fa17c9630810080935i38736b1fkcc1258e9d802566d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1KnllS-00069z-GA@fencepost.gnu.org>

    I also do not think that renaming the group is
    practical however much I would love be in the TC GLUG.

Why do you think it is not practical?  What obstacles do you see?

There are many GNU/Linux User Groups, so either they have overcome
these obstacles, or bypassed them, or for some reason those obstacles
didn't affect them as they affect you.  If you explain the obstacles,
maybe someone can suggest solutions to them.

You mentioned these two points:

    However renaming now is a tough proposition and
    overcoming inertia is hard; GNU/Linux (or whatever variant thereof you
    want to use) is a mouthful to say and people will shorten it no matter
    how hard you try.

These statements are both to some extent valid, but neither is an
obstacle to changing the name of the group _if the members decide to
do it_.

The point about inertia is valid in that some people may, from
inertia, cling to the name "Linux" despite good reasons to change.
However, speculating about others' decisions is beside the point now
that the group is likely to have a vote.  The question facing each
member now is not "How are others likely to vote?" but rather "What is
the right decision?"

Is it true that "people will shorten it" no matter what?  Only partly:
experience shows that some do and some don't.  However, the decision
for you to make is not what others will call the system; it is what
your group will say.



From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  8 23:30:23 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 23:30:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote - CD/DVD database
In-Reply-To: <48ED6EEE.4010807@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEBLCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of John Gateley
> Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 9:40 PM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
>
> I have some experience with this (see www.yadb.com - a CD database that
> corrects itself based on user input). I'm not sure if you are interested
> in the current situation (name change vote) or a broader application...

Seems irrelevant to the original topic, but I'd like to find a database or catalogging tool that will read CDs and DVDs and put the
basic info into a database.  Best if it allows (better if it knows) keeping separate databases for CDs and DVDs.  I don't care if it
goes to the web for info, but I want it to read the basic title and ISBN or whatever from the disc when it's inserted.  Some under
XP for CDs have a convenient feature to tag a CD as "on loan" and make a comment for "to whom" etc.  Anything free for DVDs under
Linux or GNU or even Windoze?


Chuck



From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct  9 00:52:39 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:52:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Survey] TCLUG Name Change
In-Reply-To: <48ECF0B2.3020103@alanpalazzolo.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48ECF0B2.3020103@alanpalazzolo.com>
Message-ID: <200810090052.39790.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=CD7GazPY6zgYU6KRpyR9Qw_3d_3d

How do you correlate the responders email addresses with the mailing list?  
Survey monkey could be ballot stuffed with yahoo or hotmail.

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 12:41:06 pm Alan Palazzolo wrote:
> This whole thing has become so ridiculous.  Can we please use technology
> (the thing we like so much) correctly:
>
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=CD7GazPY6zgYU6KRpyR9Qw_3d_3d




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct  9 00:57:07 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 00:57:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <20081008164146.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081008164146.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <200810090057.08089.tclug@lizakowski.com>


We have one authentication mechanism: the list.   

To use any other system involves exporting the database or comparing it 
somehow.

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 11:41:46 am Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 11:13:03AM -0500, Sunny wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 10:48 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> > > On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:41:29AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > >> > 4)  Shall we vote by replying to the list with a msg header that
> > >> > indicates the vote clearly,  or via some other method?
> > >>
> > >> Maybe, but a different system would be better.  I'll look into that.
> > >> Maybe someone else has a scheme for doing this.
> > >
> > > Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
> > > a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
> > > their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
> > > votes with a few greps and sorts.
> > >
> > > Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
> > >
> > >   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
> > >   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
> > >   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> > >
> > > Are there any other options that we should consider?
> >
> > Or Google Docs Forms. Perfect for the case. I can set up one, if you
> > want.
>
> I meant any other options to the poll.
>
> Why do you people suggest alternative voting systems when we have a
> very good system in place?  Send in your ballot and everybody can see
> it and count it.  How do you propose to insure that google docs does
> not let somebody to stuff extra votes in or change existing votes?
>
> Cheers,
> florin




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct  9 01:30:23 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:30:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <36376.64.83.234.193.1223490057.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<20081008154807.GN3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<36376.64.83.234.193.1223490057.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810090130.23824.tclug@lizakowski.com>


The data is too noisy for instant runoff.  Due to a lack of complete 
agreement, there will be 'ballot spoilage'.  

It needs to pass by a clear majority to end the debate.  If the results are 
subtle, it won't work despite the system employed.

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 1:20:57 pm Jim Crumley wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 10:48:07AM -0500, Florin Iucha wrote:
> > Please look back in the archives for the last vote we took.  Just have
> > a form e-mail with the options, and have everybody interested fill in
> > their choice and send it to the list.  Then, everybody can count the
> > votes with a few greps and sorts.
> >
> > Sorting through last e-mails on the topic, I found these options:
> >
> >    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
> >    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
> >    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> If there are going to be more than two choices, then we also need
> to decide on a voting system. Do we want straight plurality? Or
> some sort of ranked or rated voting system?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_system
>
> While plurality is nice and easy, I am not sure that it is the
> best choice for a vote like this, there may be people that like one
> choice, are OK with a second, and hate the third.




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct  9 01:44:15 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 01:44:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Friday
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70810081324w1f464c2awca824b249fcf64a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1223497085.23004.13.camel@localhost>
	<47f4d5e70810081324w1f464c2awca824b249fcf64a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810090144.15747.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> I may show but you can't make me eat their pizza.  Yiiick.

Yep, I'll try to be there, and it's near my office, 

but I agree on their pizza.  Their sauce was, well, memorable.

J

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 3:24:54 pm Donovan wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 3:18 PM, Adam Monsen <haircut at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Friday, 11:30am, Duffy's Dinkytown Pizza. Yummy pizza by the slice, and
> > nerdy chit-chat. http://chow.com/places/7724
> >
> > Reply or give a shout on IRC if you think you might be able to make it.
> >
> > Not within throwing distance of Dinkytown? Start your own impromptu
> > lunch!
> >
> > --
> > Adam Monsen
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> I may show but you can't make me eat their pizza.  Yiiick.




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct  9 02:01:44 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 02:01:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCIEIPNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCIEIPNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200810090201.44481.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> It's as smart as TCLUG gets: there is no organization, it has no officers,
> no routines, and no substance except this.  It's just a list for sharing
> info, and "undefined" as strictly any peer to any peer any time.  

That description sounds exactly like open source software ;)

Jeremy

On Wednesday 08 October 2008 3:51:16 pm Chuck Cole wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Isaac Atilano [mailto:aristophrenic at warpmail.net]
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 08, 2008 3:35 PM
> >
> > On Wed, 8 Oct 2008 15:04:19 -0500, "Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
> >
> > said:
> > > TCLUG has no "decider": nobody has the authority to say when a vote is
> > > valid or invalid.  You don't.  Your claim of a voting window
> > > is just more of the cacophony by non-deciders.  :-)    If we must have
> > > such poppycock as arbitrary voting windows, we must assume
> > > it's a ploy to stack the vote.
> >
> > What I'm seeing at this point is mob rule, and I for one don't think
> > that a smart way of making decisions.
>
> It's as smart as TCLUG gets: there is no organization, it has no officers,
> no routines, and no substance except this.  It's just a list for sharing
> info, and "undefined" as strictly any peer to any peer any time.  It was
> smarter in earlier days.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 02:09:13 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 02:09:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  CD/DVD Database (was Re: Name Change Vote)
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEBLCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEBLCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200810090209.18998.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Wednesday October 8 2008 23:30:23 Chuck Cole wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of John Gateley Sent:
> > Wednesday, October 08, 2008 9:40 PM
> > To: TCLUG List
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
> >
> > I have some experience with this (see www.yadb.com - a CD database that
> > corrects itself based on user input). I'm not sure if you are interested
> > in the current situation (name change vote) or a broader application...
>
> Seems irrelevant to the original topic, but I'd like to find a database or
> catalogging tool that will read CDs and DVDs and put the basic info into a
> database.  Best if it allows (better if it knows) keeping separate
> databases for CDs and DVDs.  I don't care if it goes to the web for info,
> but I want it to read the basic title and ISBN or whatever from the disc
> when it's inserted.  Some under XP for CDs have a convenient feature to tag
> a CD as "on loan" and make a comment for "to whom" etc.  Anything free for
> DVDs under Linux or GNU or even Windoze?

Data Crow (from what little I've played with it) seems to do all this with the 
exception of reading the disc metadata (or maybe it can, the UI is... 
creative). It does have a nifty search wizard that trawls imdb, Wikipedia, 
Amazon, etc. Probably overkill for what you want, really, you can keep track 
of anything with this, movies, software, books, build-your-own module, sky's 
the limit. It's done in Java. I've had it installed for three days and barely 
scratched the surface of it, so if you do end up trying it out, let me know 
how you like it.

www.datacrow.net

-pete
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From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct  9 02:30:01 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 02:30:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0810081334n33bd32fer50f0abb38c4a3ecf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<68dbb6fe0810081334n33bd32fer50f0abb38c4a3ecf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810090230.01157.tclug@lizakowski.com>


Here's a quick tally of the votes so far.  I would think a lot of people have 
not voted yet, so these numbers could change quite a bit.

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
Dan Rue <drue at therub.org>
Eric F Crist <ecrist at secure-computing.net>
"Andy Schmid" <andyschmid at gmail.com>
"Nick Scholtes" <airchia at gmail.com>
"Dave Sherman" <thurianknight at gmail.com>
"Troy.A Johnson" <troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us>
"Erik Anderson" <erikerik at gmail.com>
"Jordan Peacock" <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com>
"Chuck Cole" <cncole at earthlink.net>
"Larry R. Pint" <Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com>
"Tom Penney" <tpenney at gmail.com>
Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu>
"John Trammell" <johntrammell at gmail.com>

[X ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
"Noah Markon" <nmarkon at gmail.com>
Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net>

[X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
"Robert Brown" <rbrown at rawmindz.com>
 David Alanis <canito at dalan.us>

[X] Rudy Boschwitz
Adam Maloney <adam at whee.org>



On Wednesday 08 October 2008 3:34:38 pm John Trammell wrote:
> [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
> [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
> [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From danyberg at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 04:15:45 2008
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 04:15:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <5daafeb10810090215u2b14cca1je307aa1b7c8fbd9b@mail.gmail.com>

I don't post a lot here, but I try to read every message and learn from
them..  This RMS thing got old a while ago.  I don't know when this vote
will be or how it will be done, but since I'm tired of the topic, I'm
submitting my absentee ballot:




  [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


And not that it will change my vote, but if it becomes TCGLUG will I still
be able to ask questions about non GNU software and expect a polite answer?


-- 
"These are the times that try men's souls.  The summer soldier and the
sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their
country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and
woman."    -Thomas Paine

<><
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Oct  9 06:31:00 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 06:31:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <5daafeb10810090215u2b14cca1je307aa1b7c8fbd9b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5daafeb10810090215u2b14cca1je307aa1b7c8fbd9b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EDEB74.50509@beer.tclug.org>

swede wrote:
> And not that it will change my vote, but if it becomes TCGLUG will I 
> still be able to ask questions about non GNU software and expect a 
> polite answer?

  Wait, are you implying that you're gotten polite answers here before? 
  Are we talking about the same mailing list?

  Joking aside, people have always (for varying definitions of "always") 
asked "off-topic" (that is, non-Linux-related) questions, with various 
amounts of politeness coming back to them.  Defining our list/group as a 
GNU/Linux-centric list doesn't, to me, exclude non-GNU software from our 
discussions.  It just serves as a reminder/acknowledgment of where a lot 
of the "Linux" core (like, say, coreutils!) originates from.
  And even if it did exclude non-GNU software somehow, hell, people have 
asked Windows questions on this list and lived to see the next day.

  (FWIW, my general test for "is this off-topic software?" has always 
been "will it compile under Linux?"  Although I should probably say 
GNU/Linux there, because I think we all know where GCC comes from.)

      Jima

who's not looking to start a tangent on ICC


From pcutler at foresightlinux.org  Thu Oct  9 08:34:00 2008
From: pcutler at foresightlinux.org (Paul Cutler)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 08:34:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48EDEB74.50509@beer.tclug.org>
References: <5daafeb10810090215u2b14cca1je307aa1b7c8fbd9b@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EDEB74.50509@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <4c4ad4df0810090634q3b1e55f1h7ac6cc3a5812148f@mail.gmail.com>

Add one more vote please:

  [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Thanks.

Paul

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 6:31 AM, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:
> swede wrote:
>> And not that it will change my vote, but if it becomes TCGLUG will I
>> still be able to ask questions about non GNU software and expect a
>> polite answer?
>
>  Wait, are you implying that you're gotten polite answers here before?
>  Are we talking about the same mailing list?
>
>  Joking aside, people have always (for varying definitions of "always")
> asked "off-topic" (that is, non-Linux-related) questions, with various
> amounts of politeness coming back to them.  Defining our list/group as a
> GNU/Linux-centric list doesn't, to me, exclude non-GNU software from our
> discussions.  It just serves as a reminder/acknowledgment of where a lot
> of the "Linux" core (like, say, coreutils!) originates from.
>  And even if it did exclude non-GNU software somehow, hell, people have
> asked Windows questions on this list and lived to see the next day.
>
>  (FWIW, my general test for "is this off-topic software?" has always
> been "will it compile under Linux?"  Although I should probably say
> GNU/Linux there, because I think we all know where GCC comes from.)
>
>      Jima
>
> who's not looking to start a tangent on ICC
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From hpenner at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 08:47:48 2008
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 08:47:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <48EE0B84.4080500@gmail.com>

   [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


From bradyh at bitstream.net  Thu Oct  9 09:37:25 2008
From: bradyh at bitstream.net (bradyh at bitstream.net)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 09:37:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>
Message-ID: <59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>

My Vote:
   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


I think if we changed the name to "Twin Cities Linux and Free Software
User Group" it would describe more accurately what we discuss on this
list. But then, I'm not sure we need or want accuracy.

I also think a number of people on this group are over reacting and
running around waving their hands in the air. And finally, I believe
Richard would have gotten a lot more accomplished if he would have just
politely requested that we add a link to gnu.org to the website, and
perhaps posted a message advertising his talk.  And the talk itself would
have been a more politic venue for name-changing discussions.

In general, though this system works and this group, in it's ad hoc way,
works well, and I'm very thankful for the information I've gotten in the
past and surely will in the future.

-Brady



From johntrammell at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 10:35:02 2008
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:35:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>
	<59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0810090835n2c6f642ema9809c31faf7df98@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 9:37 AM,  <bradyh at bitstream.net> wrote:
> I also think a number of people on this group are over reacting and
> running around waving their hands in the air.

Amen.  Remember, this entire conversation is (a) public, and (b)
recorded for posterity.  I assure you this issue is not worth a
fraction of the emotion I've seen on the list.

As an aside: I'm very happy with the group's response to this.  Those
who can be bothered to weigh in have done so; those who haven't
weighed in either (a) don't care enough to speak up, or (b) aren't
involved enough in the group to make a timely response.  Everyone had
a chance to speak their minds, and make their reasoning known to the
best of their ability.  A victory for free speech.

And that is the last I'm going to say on this thread.  I hope I have
not resurrected it from the death it so richly deserves.  Thanks
everyone!

JT


From haircut at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 10:36:42 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 10:36:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown,
	11:30am Friday - AT POTBELLY
In-Reply-To: <200810090144.15747.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <1223497085.23004.13.camel@localhost>
	<47f4d5e70810081324w1f464c2awca824b249fcf64a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810090144.15747.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <1223566602.28785.5.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 01:44 -0500, Jeremy wrote:
> > I may show but you can't make me eat their pizza.  Yiiick.
> 
> Yep, I'll try to be there, and it's near my office, 
> 
> but I agree on their pizza.  Their sauce was, well, memorable.

You know what, I'm also not a fan of their pizza. It was mainly a
convenient place to meet up where you don't have to "split the check"
after you're done eating.

I'd really like to do Mesa Pizza (MUCH better slices), but their dining
area would only fit a few people.

So let's do _Potbelly Sandwich Works_. It's at the corner of 14th Ave SE
and 4th St SE. I like their sandwiches and they have great barrel
pickles, too.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  9 10:38:23 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:38:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

My Vote:
    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
    [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
    [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

I guess Jeremy thinks it is OK that people are voting now.  We started 
voting without a plan on when to end voting and there was no announcement 
that we should proceed to vote.  Some people wanted to "end it" by sending 
dozens of vote messages to the list.

I think we obviously should compare the first category against the second 
two combined -- it isn't a three-way contest, it's more like two votes in 
one:  Linux v GNU/Linux and IF GNU/Linus, TCLUG v TCGLUG.

Mike


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Oct  9 10:47:18 2008
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:47:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810091046050.16987@dragon>



Richard Stallman Presents The Twin Cities GNU/Linux Experience



-Yaron

--


From andyschmid at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 10:58:56 2008
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 10:58:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810091046050.16987@dragon>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810091046050.16987@dragon>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a30810090858l382c07e1n59ad207aa09aa874@mail.gmail.com>

Better add that to the poll.

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

>
>
> Richard Stallman Presents The Twin Cities GNU/Linux Experience
>
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Thu Oct  9 11:01:08 2008
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:01:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810091046050.16987@dragon>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E98@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

RSPTCG/LE ... not exactly catchy.  ;-)

Larry
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 10:47 AM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
> 
> 
> 
> Richard Stallman Presents The Twin Cities GNU/Linux Experience
> 
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Oct  9 11:10:51 2008
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:10:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E98@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
References: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E98@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810091109540.16987@dragon>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Larry R. Pint wrote:

> RSPTCG/LE ... not exactly catchy.  ;-)

But it LOOKS SO COOL!

And I was actually thinking RSP:TTCG/LE which looks EVEN COOLER.


-Yaron

--


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  9 11:13:16 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:13:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E98@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
References: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E98@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091111530.5410@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Larry R. Pint wrote:

> RSPTCG/LE ... not exactly catchy.  ;-)

I think it should be pronounced like "respite siggly".

Mike


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Thu Oct  9 11:28:17 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:28:17 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

Mike wrote: 
> ... compare the first category against the second two 
> ... [this] isn't a three-way contest...

I agree.  I want to vote for CHANGE.
  
Something that acknowledges the fundamental work of the GNU project and
the continuing efforts of the FSF to enforce the GPL would be
appropriate and taxonomically correct.  We haven't agreed when the
voting starts, ends, or what's on the ballot, but if I *were* to vote on
the suggested slate (and we adopt instant runoff), I would vote for:
    
    [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
    [1st choice] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
    [close 2nd, but I'm willing to be persuaded] Twin Cities GNU/Linux
User Group -> TCGLUG


Richard,

If you are reading this, I'm very much looking forward to your Oct 21
visit.  Thanks for all the work you and others have done to provide free
alternatives.  I hope to meet you regardless of what happens with the
name of some list I happen to subscribe to.




From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Thu Oct  9 11:29:29 2008
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:29:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091111530.5410@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E99@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

Well, when you put it that way ...

I read it on the respite siggly list!

I'm going to a respite siggly meeting.

Kind of catchy ... and has a certain "coolness" factor.  ;-)

But under the circumstances, maybe it should be pronounced "respect
siggly" or even "respect glee" <VBG>

respect glee yours,

Larry
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 11:13 AM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Name Change Suggestion
> 
> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Larry R. Pint wrote:
> 
> > RSPTCG/LE ... not exactly catchy.  ;-)
> 
> I think it should be pronounced like "respite siggly".
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Thu Oct  9 11:37:16 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:37:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Smith, Craig A wrote:

> Mike wrote:
>> ... compare the first category against the second two
>> ... [this] isn't a three-way contest...
>
> I agree.  I want to vote for CHANGE.

Then leave.  It's been fairly obvious that the majority of those who  
voted don't want change.  If you don't like the group, as has been  
mentioned, you're welcome to start your own.

Not trying to be hostile, just saying.
---
Eric Crist






From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 11:56:00 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 11:56:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <200810091156.05091.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Thursday October 9 2008 11:37:16 Eric F Crist wrote:
> On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Smith, Craig A wrote:
> > Mike wrote:
> >> ... compare the first category against the second two
> >> ... [this] isn't a three-way contest...
> >
> > I agree.  I want to vote for CHANGE.
>
> Then leave.  It's been fairly obvious that the majority of those who
> voted don't want change.  If you don't like the group, as has been
> mentioned, you're welcome to start your own.
>
> Not trying to be hostile, just saying.

For crying out loud. You get your way and bully people into starting the vote 
when it was totally obvious that no one was ready to do that yet, and yet 
still you're not happy! You have to do the electronic equivalent of bullying 
people outside the polls! You know, in real votes in civilized countries, 
that's illegal. Because it's a douchebag thing to do. If it's so bloody 
obvious that "the majority... doesn't want change," then shut up and let 
people vote.

It is unbelievable how this debate has brought out the absolute worst in so 
many people in this group. Grow the hell up.

-pete, and when I've got to be civility cop, you know something's really wrong 
here
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From me at alanpalazzolo.com  Thu Oct  9 00:59:16 2008
From: me at alanpalazzolo.com (Alan Palazzolo)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 00:59:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Survey] TCLUG Name Change
In-Reply-To: <200810090052.39790.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48ECF0B2.3020103@alanpalazzolo.com>
	<200810090052.39790.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <48ED9DB4.1040603@alanpalazzolo.com>

Valid point.  It does restrict by IP Address which is not exact.
Overall, its not perfect, but if we want to take the time, we can easily
compare it to the "TC[G]LUG" mailman list.

On 10/9/08 12:52 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=CD7GazPY6zgYU6KRpyR9Qw_3d_3d
> 
> How do you correlate the responders email addresses with the mailing list?  
> Survey monkey could be ballot stuffed with yahoo or hotmail.
> 
> On Wednesday 08 October 2008 12:41:06 pm Alan Palazzolo wrote:
>> This whole thing has become so ridiculous.  Can we please use technology
>> (the thing we like so much) correctly:
>>
>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=CD7GazPY6zgYU6KRpyR9Qw_3d_3d
> 
> 

-- 
Alan
http://alanpalazzolo.com/


From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 12:07:09 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:07:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] a non-binding plea for people to act like adults
Message-ID: <200810091207.10133.teeahr1@gmail.com>

Okay, for real. I'm not gonna sit here and name names, but some people out 
there should be ashamed of their behavior. My god, there's more bullies in 
here than a junior high locker room.

So here's my humble proposal. If we are in fact voting here (are we voting 
now?), then just go cast your vote in the Name Change Vote thread. No 
expository text needed, no electioneering, no nothin'. Just an X next to your 
choice will suffice. No replying to other people's votes with a continuation of 
your argument. There are like six threads going for that right now, pick any 
one of them.

And people will vote, and the votes will be counted, and we'll find some kind 
of consensus here, and do (or not do) whatever the group decides to do (or not 
do). Like the grown-ups do.

Seriously. This is disgusting, people.

-pete
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Thu Oct  9 12:08:51 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:08:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Survey] TCLUG Name Change
In-Reply-To: <48ED9DB4.1040603@alanpalazzolo.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<48ECF0B2.3020103@alanpalazzolo.com>
	<200810090052.39790.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<48ED9DB4.1040603@alanpalazzolo.com>
Message-ID: <C055E1CA-484C-4241-BDCE-5323E2232207@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 9, 2008, at 12:59 AM, Alan Palazzolo wrote:

> Valid point.  It does restrict by IP Address which is not exact.
> Overall, its not perfect, but if we want to take the time, we can  
> easily
> compare it to the "TC[G]LUG" mailman list.
>
> On 10/9/08 12:52 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=CD7GazPY6zgYU6KRpyR9Qw_3d_3d

I don't think that restricting by IP address would be overly valid.  I  
have, for example, access to hundreds of IPs.  I'm sure many here have  
access to many more than that.

---
Eric Crist






From josh at radkeland.org  Thu Oct  9 11:16:01 2008
From: josh at radkeland.org (Joshua Radke)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 11:16:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48EE2E41.1070003@radkeland.org>

My Vote:
     [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
     [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
     [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

It was stated recently on the list:
   ... those who haven't weighed in either (a) don't care enough to
   speak up, or (b) aren't involved enough in the group to make a
   timely response.

There is at least one more reason one may not have responded.  I find it 
difficult (impossible?) to present a good response to emotionally 
charged vitriolic assertions (it feels like spinning wheels and feeding 
conflict).


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Oct  9 12:21:06 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:21:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] a non-binding plea for people to act like adults
In-Reply-To: <200810091207.10133.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <200810091207.10133.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EE3D82.5060809@beer.tclug.org>

p.daniels wrote:
> Okay, for real. I'm not gonna sit here and name names, but some people 
> out there should be ashamed of their behavior. My god, there's more 
> bullies in here than a junior high locker room.
> 
> So here's my humble proposal. If we are in fact voting here (are we 
> voting now?), then just go cast your vote in the Name Change Vote 
> thread. No expository text needed, no electioneering, no nothin'. Just 
> an X next to your choice will suffice. No replying to other people's 
> votes with a continuation of your argument. There are like six threads 
> going for that right now, pick any one of them.
> 
> And people will vote, and the votes will be counted, and we'll find some 
> kind of consensus here, and do (or not do) whatever the group decides to 
> do (or not do). Like the grown-ups do.
> 
> Seriously. This is disgusting, people.

  Judging by your last email, you might want to take your own advice, 
Pete.  Flamewars and thinly-veiled name-calling isn't productive, either.

      Jima

who'd like to hope he hasn't come off as too aggressive


From strayf at freeshell.org  Thu Oct  9 12:28:38 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:28:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48EE3F46.4020201@freeshell.org>

My Vote:
     [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
     [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
     [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Mike Miller wrote:
> [...]
> I think we obviously should compare the first category against the second 
> two combined -- it isn't a three-way contest, it's more like two votes in 
> one:  Linux v GNU/Linux and IF GNU/Linus, TCLUG v TCGLUG.

I agree. I vote for changing the name, but either abbreviation is fine with me.

-Steve


From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 12:38:50 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:38:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <200810091156.05091.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<200810091156.05091.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bada98250810091038i444f8a6r56f36b1e74835fc2@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sorry, but that is incredibly vitriolic, Pete. That may have been the
intention of those who began casting votes, but as has been mentioned: it's
been a relatively easy way to match votes to real people, and all people to
add in any other options they feel where not included on the original
'ballot'.

And again, why voting is far from 'closed', it's pretty clear which way the
deck is stacked. Nothing is stopping the (at present) 4 people who prefer a
different title from presenting themselves as such to Stallman, and
'redirecting' the title to the rest of the group at large. But generally it
appears that either a) the majority are not keen on change or, more
probably, b) they just don't care about the argument at large and want an
end to it. I know I do.

I don't mind pulling out all the votes from the various email conversations
and putting together a Google doc that you all can view. Sounds like the
meet date is the 21st, so voting should close no later than the 21st. I'll
just track that and put it together, and update it periodically. But an
'alias' of the group may be the best option, for those who feel the need for
a different moniker, rather than a global change.

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:56 AM, p.daniels <teeahr1 at gmail.com> wrote:

>  On Thursday October 9 2008 11:37:16 Eric F Crist wrote:
>
> > On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Smith, Craig A wrote:
>
> > > Mike wrote:
>
> > >> ... compare the first category against the second two
>
> > >> ... [this] isn't a three-way contest...
>
> > >
>
> > > I agree. I want to vote for CHANGE.
>
> >
>
> > Then leave. It's been fairly obvious that the majority of those who
>
> > voted don't want change. If you don't like the group, as has been
>
> > mentioned, you're welcome to start your own.
>
> >
>
> > Not trying to be hostile, just saying.
>
> For crying out loud. You get your way and bully people into starting the
> vote when it was totally obvious that no one was ready to do that yet, and
> yet still you're not happy! You have to do the electronic equivalent of
> bullying people outside the polls! You know, in real votes in civilized
> countries, that's illegal. Because it's a douchebag thing to do. If it's so
> bloody obvious that "the majority... doesn't want change," then shut up and
> let people vote.
>
> It is unbelievable how this debate has brought out the absolute worst in so
> many people in this group. Grow the hell up.
>
> -pete, and when I've got to be civility cop, you know something's really
> wrong here
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 12:41:44 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:41:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] a non-binding plea for people to act like adults
In-Reply-To: <48EE3D82.5060809@beer.tclug.org>
References: <200810091207.10133.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<48EE3D82.5060809@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <200810091241.45668.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Thursday October 9 2008 12:21:06 Jima wrote:
> p.daniels wrote:
> > Okay, for real. I'm not gonna sit here and name names, but some people
> > out there should be ashamed of their behavior. My god, there's more
> > bullies in here than a junior high locker room.
> >
> > So here's my humble proposal. If we are in fact voting here (are we
> > voting now?), then just go cast your vote in the Name Change Vote
> > thread. No expository text needed, no electioneering, no nothin'. Just
> > an X next to your choice will suffice. No replying to other people's
> > votes with a continuation of your argument. There are like six threads
> > going for that right now, pick any one of them.
> >
> > And people will vote, and the votes will be counted, and we'll find some
> > kind of consensus here, and do (or not do) whatever the group decides to
> > do (or not do). Like the grown-ups do.
> >
> > Seriously. This is disgusting, people.
>
>   Judging by your last email, you might want to take your own advice,
> Pete.  Flamewars and thinly-veiled name-calling isn't productive, either.
>
>       Jima
>
> who'd like to hope he hasn't come off as too aggressive

Man, I'm trying damn hard here. But I've reached the point of disgust where I 
have to either say something or unsubscribe from the list. I don't really want 
to do that. Have I lost my temper with some folks? Yeah, I have. I don't feel 
unjustified in that either. I have endured personal attacks and unwelcome and 
insulting off-list mail showing up in my inbox and I don't like that. 
Especially when I have at no point declared my intentions for one side or the 
other.

Through this whole thing, all I have jumped in to say is "please stop being 
assholes, people." And I don't think it's a lot to ask that people comport 
themselves as adults in public. If I wanted to watch a bunch of jerkoffs call 
each other names, I know how to find Slashdot.

Would it behoove me to take my own medicine a little bit? Yeah, no doubt, and 
I'd very much like to do that. Does that invalidate what I'm saying? I don't 
think so, no.

-pete, who at no point in this debate has found you aggressive in the least, 
so thanks for that
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From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Thu Oct  9 12:48:57 2008
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 12:48:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <bada98250810091038i444f8a6r56f36b1e74835fc2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA6B00E9A@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

Maybe our friends at the "U" could start a sub-group called "GNU for U".
:-)

 

Larry

 

(I'm feeling awfully goofy today.)

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Jordan Peacock
Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 12:39 PM
To: p.daniels
Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org; Smith, Craig A
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote

 

I'm sorry, but that is incredibly vitriolic, Pete. That may have been
the intention of those who began casting votes, but as has been
mentioned: it's been a relatively easy way to match votes to real
people, and all people to add in any other options they feel where not
included on the original 'ballot'.

And again, why voting is far from 'closed', it's pretty clear which way
the deck is stacked. Nothing is stopping the (at present) 4 people who
prefer a different title from presenting themselves as such to Stallman,
and 'redirecting' the title to the rest of the group at large. But
generally it appears that either a) the majority are not keen on change
or, more probably, b) they just don't care about the argument at large
and want an end to it. I know I do.

I don't mind pulling out all the votes from the various email
conversations and putting together a Google doc that you all can view.
Sounds like the meet date is the 21st, so voting should close no later
than the 21st. I'll just track that and put it together, and update it
periodically. But an 'alias' of the group may be the best option, for
those who feel the need for a different moniker, rather than a global
change.

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com



On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 11:56 AM, p.daniels <teeahr1 at gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday October 9 2008 11:37:16 Eric F Crist wrote:

> On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Smith, Craig A wrote:

> > Mike wrote:

> >> ... compare the first category against the second two

> >> ... [this] isn't a three-way contest...

> >

> > I agree. I want to vote for CHANGE.

>

> Then leave. It's been fairly obvious that the majority of those who

> voted don't want change. If you don't like the group, as has been

> mentioned, you're welcome to start your own.

>

> Not trying to be hostile, just saying.

For crying out loud. You get your way and bully people into starting the
vote when it was totally obvious that no one was ready to do that yet,
and yet still you're not happy! You have to do the electronic equivalent
of bullying people outside the polls! You know, in real votes in
civilized countries, that's illegal. Because it's a douchebag thing to
do. If it's so bloody obvious that "the majority... doesn't want
change," then shut up and let people vote.

It is unbelievable how this debate has brought out the absolute worst in
so many people in this group. Grow the hell up.

-pete, and when I've got to be civility cop, you know something's really
wrong here


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

 

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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Oct  9 12:52:33 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:52:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] a non-binding plea for people to act like adults
In-Reply-To: <200810091241.45668.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <200810091207.10133.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<48EE3D82.5060809@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810091241.45668.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EE44E1.50604@beer.tclug.org>

p.daniels wrote:
*snip: a lot of other stuff*
> Would it behoove me to take my own medicine a little bit? Yeah, no 
> doubt, and I'd very much like to do that. Does that invalidate what I'm 
> saying? I don't think so, no.

  I won't argue with your point, only your path getting there. ;-)  By 
no means will I deny that this has spiraled into one of the LUG's 
more...memorable...discussions.

      Jima

"don't make me turn this mailing list around!"


From canito at dalan.us  Thu Oct  9 13:04:37 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:04:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  Question
In-Reply-To: <7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <20081009130437.mkjqn2ee7ks88kcg@mail.dalan.us>

Good Day,

I'd like to thank those who have asserted positive attitude towards  
the name change. In conversation with a few list members, they have  
quietly expressed outrage about the few people who keep insinuating  
people who want to see change was only brought about because of who  
RMS is. I personally, did not find his e-mail insulting nor do I  
admire the guy personally. I do however, admire the work and the  
inspiration his generation fought for and the foundation leading to  
what we have available today "free software".

Two of these people (including myself) thought about leaving the list.  
Nothing too personal, just the fact there is few people spoiling it  
for the rest of us.
I will openly say, that I admire the work and principle Mike Miller  
(including Florin Lucha, Jima and many others!) has introduced with  
the name change thread. And think he can be of great influence and  
education to people like me who want change, who are tired of not  
having structure, and who can actually lead the list with an unbiased  
mind.

Again, my vote for change is NOT and never was because RMS called for  
it and I think I speak for others. But primarily because it would be  
natural. I vote for a "NEW" group where open-mindedness is welcome,  
structure with leadership, and participation without facing criticism  
or reprimand.

Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate  
the efforts.

David

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  9 13:04:59 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:04:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Eric F Crist wrote:

> On Oct 9, 2008, at 11:28 AM, Smith, Craig A wrote:
>
>> Mike wrote:
>>> ... compare the first category against the second two
>>> ... [this] isn't a three-way contest...
>>
>> I agree.  I want to vote for CHANGE.
>
> Then leave.  It's been fairly obvious that the majority of those who 
> voted don't want change.

But I started this ball rolling and I suggested that people who were 
voting were being disrespectful trouble-makers because no one had 
suggested that we start voting at that moment.  So maybe people who agreed 
with me didn't vote at first.


> Not trying to be hostile, just saying.

Then leave.

Not trying to be hostile, just saying.

Mike


From stuff at cb1inc.com  Thu Oct  9 13:12:19 2008
From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:12:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <20081009130437.mkjqn2ee7ks88kcg@mail.dalan.us>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<20081009130437.mkjqn2ee7ks88kcg@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <48EE4983.6010103@cb1inc.com>

+1


David Alanis wrote:
> Good Day,
>
> I'd like to thank those who have asserted positive attitude towards  
> the name change. In conversation with a few list members, they have  
> quietly expressed outrage about the few people who keep insinuating  
> people who want to see change was only brought about because of who  
> RMS is. I personally, did not find his e-mail insulting nor do I  
> admire the guy personally. I do however, admire the work and the  
> inspiration his generation fought for and the foundation leading to  
> what we have available today "free software".
>
> Two of these people (including myself) thought about leaving the list.  
> Nothing too personal, just the fact there is few people spoiling it  
> for the rest of us.
> I will openly say, that I admire the work and principle Mike Miller  
> (including Florin Lucha, Jima and many others!) has introduced with  
> the name change thread. And think he can be of great influence and  
> education to people like me who want change, who are tired of not  
> having structure, and who can actually lead the list with an unbiased  
> mind.
>
> Again, my vote for change is NOT and never was because RMS called for  
> it and I think I speak for others. But primarily because it would be  
> natural. I vote for a "NEW" group where open-mindedness is welcome,  
> structure with leadership, and participation without facing criticism  
> or reprimand.
>
> Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate  
> the efforts.
>
> David
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 13:23:33 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:23:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sorry Sunny - Google Doc with ALL votes up to the
	minute tallied
Message-ID: <bada98250810091123qf9d7930x90f3b5f682080aca@mail.gmail.com>

Here's the link: can be viewed without signing in.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pCa5A8yIwQKyTSkCKqzNpdQ

Even if we end up changing the finally tallying system or methodology, I
wanted to have a clear record established. I'll maintain this list as long
as voting occurs OR until an alternate methodology is agreed upon.

If you wish to change your vote, simply message the list with your updated
information. I will add it as a second vote unless you make it clear that
you do NOT wish your earlier vote to be counted.

Peace

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com
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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Oct  9 13:26:25 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:26:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> But I started this ball rolling and I suggested that people who were 
> voting were being disrespectful trouble-makers because no one had 
> suggested that we start voting at that moment.  So maybe people who agreed 
> with me didn't vote at first.

  Who exactly declared or signed off on the voting window?  It seemed a 
bit arbitrary to me.  Probably others, too.

      Jima


From sfertch at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 13:38:08 2008
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:38:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] a non-binding plea for people to act like adults
In-Reply-To: <48EE44E1.50604@beer.tclug.org>
References: <200810091207.10133.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<48EE3D82.5060809@beer.tclug.org>
	<200810091241.45668.teeahr1@gmail.com> <48EE44E1.50604@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <67f3084a0810091138q222baaa6ke8685ac4db91f086@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 12:52 PM, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:

>
> "don't make me turn this mailing list around!"
>

Can we put that to a vote?    :-P


-- 
-Shawn
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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 13:36:59 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:36:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sorry Sunny - Google Doc with ALL votes up to the
	minute tallied
In-Reply-To: <48EE4D60.3010503@beer.tclug.org>
References: <bada98250810091123qf9d7930x90f3b5f682080aca@mail.gmail.com>
	<48EE4D60.3010503@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <bada98250810091136lf734dc8s44e133917586c68a@mail.gmail.com>

Good catch Jim. All emails encrypted via ROT13 now.

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:

> Jordan Peacock wrote:
>
>> Here's the link: can be viewed without signing in.
>>
>> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pCa5A8yIwQKyTSkCKqzNpdQ
>>
>> Even if we end up changing the finally tallying system or methodology, I
>> wanted to have a clear record established. I'll maintain this list as long
>> as voting occurs OR until an alternate methodology is agreed upon.
>>
>> If you wish to change your vote, simply message the list with your updated
>> information. I will add it as a second vote unless you make it clear that
>> you do NOT wish your earlier vote to be counted.
>>
>
>  I applaud your effort, Jordan, but GOOD GOD, should those email addresses
> be visible without any sort of authentication? :-P
>  Just sayin', man...not that I know how easily screen-scraped Google Apps
> is.
>
>     Jima
>
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From sloncho at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 13:41:31 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:41:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sorry Sunny - Google Doc with ALL votes up to the
	minute tallied
In-Reply-To: <bada98250810091123qf9d7930x90f3b5f682080aca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bada98250810091123qf9d7930x90f3b5f682080aca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810091141g3a45854fm2e97d381caace733@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Jordan Peacock <hewhocutsdown at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here's the link: can be viewed without signing in.
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pCa5A8yIwQKyTSkCKqzNpdQ
>
> Even if we end up changing the finally tallying system or methodology, I
> wanted to have a clear record established. I'll maintain this list as long
> as voting occurs OR until an alternate methodology is agreed upon.
>
> If you wish to change your vote, simply message the list with your updated
> information. I will add it as a second vote unless you make it clear that
> you do NOT wish your earlier vote to be counted.
>
> Peace
>

Nothing to sorry about. I build the form, but never submitted it, as
there was disagreement on the approach.

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Thu Oct  9 13:42:57 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:42:57 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

Eric, a self-admitted bsd loyalist, wrote:

> Then leave.  It's been fairly obvious that the majority of those who  
> voted don't want change.  If you don't like the group, as has been  
> mentioned, you're welcome to start your own.

Ignoring the fact that no formal vote has been called, I'm reminded of
flag-wavers saying "If you don't love America then leave."  

Dissent is patriotic.  Is it unreasonable for the name to acknowledge
history and the contributions of many dedicated individuals?

I'm shocked that anyone associated with a group devoted to the free and
open exchange of software and ideas should be told to go away.  Perhaps
you, Eric, should start your own group of intolerant bsd users?  Of
course you'd still be welcome here, with us "peasants" as you like to
refer to us ;-)
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2008-October/055222.ht
ml 





From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  9 13:46:35 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:46:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Jima wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> But I started this ball rolling and I suggested that people who were 
>> voting were being disrespectful trouble-makers because no one had 
>> suggested that we start voting at that moment.  So maybe people who 
>> agreed with me didn't vote at first.
>
> Who exactly declared or signed off on the voting window?  It seemed a 
> bit arbitrary to me.  Probably others, too.


I think no one declared it.  Some people, specifically those who opposed a 
name change, just started sending in "votes" to the list.

They did this knowing full well that we were not ready, that we were 
organizing plans, etc.

Mike


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 13:51:51 2008
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:51:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810090057.08089.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<e7eeb230810080913o1673b4bfo9f5a781004cc7bed@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081008164146.GP3139@iris.iucha.org>
	<200810090057.08089.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f0810091151v122cd749m61ee19c06830dd99@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Jeremy <tclug at lizakowski.com> wrote:
>
> We have one authentication mechanism: the list.
>
> To use any other system involves exporting the database or comparing it
> somehow.

Well, given that Mailman is open-source, this is very much technically
feasible (presumably one could write a PHP page that would ask for an
e-mail address and a vote, check the e-mail address for a valid
subscriber, then mark them as having voted, without connecting the
address and the vote in the results).  However, I highly doubt that
it's worth the trouble right at the moment on short notice, unless
anyone is particularly bored.  It does strike me as a piece of
software that would be commonly useful though.  (Maybe it's been
done?)

-- 
Tony Yarusso
http://tonyyarusso.com/


From bbaptist at iexposure.com  Thu Oct  9 13:51:30 2008
From: bbaptist at iexposure.com (Bret Baptist)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:51:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <200810091351.30504.bbaptist@iexposure.com>

[ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

-- 
Bret Baptist
Senior Network Administrator
bbaptist at iexposure.com
Internet Exposure, Inc.
http://www.iexposure.com
(612)676-1946 x17

Providing Internet Services since 1995
Web Development ~ Search Engine Marketing ~ Web Analytics
Network Security ~ On Demand Tech Support ~ E-Mail Marketing


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Thu Oct  9 13:55:17 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 13:55:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <A49A85AA-2AE3-42B2-B190-DA4DF376CF45@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 9, 2008, at 1:42 PM, Smith, Craig A wrote:

> Eric, a self-admitted bsd loyalist, wrote:
>
>> Then leave.  It's been fairly obvious that the majority of those who
>> voted don't want change.  If you don't like the group, as has been
>> mentioned, you're welcome to start your own.
>
> Ignoring the fact that no formal vote has been called, I'm reminded of
> flag-wavers saying "If you don't love America then leave."
>
> Dissent is patriotic.  Is it unreasonable for the name to acknowledge
> history and the contributions of many dedicated individuals?
>
> I'm shocked that anyone associated with a group devoted to the free  
> and
> open exchange of software and ideas should be told to go away.   
> Perhaps
> you, Eric, should start your own group of intolerant bsd users?  Of
> course you'd still be welcome here, with us "peasants" as you like to
> refer to us ;-)

I would hardly call myself intolerant.  I prefer the more PC (no pun  
intended) 'unwilling to coexist with those of dissimilar taste.'  :P   
Honestly, I use Linux on a desktop or two, and administer a few Linux  
desktops at the office.  I prefer BSD, but am convinced Linux has a  
place, and is more than usable.  Again, since some will read into  
this, I'm not saying BSD is better than Linux, even if it is. :D

I was simply commenting, with my 'then leave' comment, on some  
members' seemingly sudden dissatisfaction with the name of the group.   
It seemed to coincide with a certain email from a certain prominent  
person in the community.  Also, it seems that a large part of the  
group doesn't want change.  Last, I was simply suggesting that those  
members who want change, might find less resistance if they were to  
start their own group.  Meow.


---
Eric Crist






From drue at therub.org  Thu Oct  9 14:08:32 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:08:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>

On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 01:46:35PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> I think no one declared it.  Some people, specifically those who opposed a 
> name change, just started sending in "votes" to the list.
> 
> They did this knowing full well that we were not ready, that we were 
> organizing plans, etc.

Since I started the vote, I'll defend my actions.

I felt that we were entering into (or continuing) a classic bikeshed[1]
argument, and thought that simply taking Florin's suggestion[2] of a
ballot and previously used voting method would be sufficient to get the
ball rolling. 

And roll it did.  Jordan Peacock has done a great job of tabulating
votes so far[3].  Being that there are no formal rules (and one could
argue whether it's even possible to create some in such a loose group),
people can continue to vote if they haven't, change their vote if they
want to, etc.

By my count, the "No Change" crowd is winning by a substantial margin to
the rest of the groups combined, so most of this discussion is moot
unless enough people change their vote, or enough additional votes come
in to create some sort of argument for change.

I'm not sure why "just voting" is being met so hostily, except perhaps
that the results are less than favorable to some people?  Changing
voting methods isn't going to change the results.  Though, if we end up
close, we could do a run-off vote if it makes sense to do so, i suppose.  

drue

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parkinson's_Law_of_Triviality
[2] http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2008-October/055202.html
[3] http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pCa5A8yIwQKyTSkCKqzNpdQ


From me at alanpalazzolo.com  Thu Oct  9 13:09:01 2008
From: me at alanpalazzolo.com (Alan Palazzolo)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 13:09:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [Survey] TCLUG Name Change
In-Reply-To: <C055E1CA-484C-4241-BDCE-5323E2232207@secure-computing.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<20081008171241.GR3139@iris.iucha.org>	<48ECF0B2.3020103@alanpalazzolo.com>	<200810090052.39790.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<48ED9DB4.1040603@alanpalazzolo.com>
	<C055E1CA-484C-4241-BDCE-5323E2232207@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <48EE48BD.5030403@alanpalazzolo.com>

Eric,

I realize this.  Hence: "...by IP Address which is not exact."

This list has become annoying and spam-like to me.  I still love Linux
and would be happy to come to events and be a part of this group, but I
can't take the mailing list anymore.  It's nothing personal towards
anyone in particular.

Let me know if you would like the results of the survey I set up.  It
will end next Wednesday.

-- 
Alan
http://alanpalazzolo.com/


On 10/9/08 12:08 PM, Eric F Crist wrote:
> On Oct 9, 2008, at 12:59 AM, Alan Palazzolo wrote:
> 
>> Valid point.  It does restrict by IP Address which is not exact.
>> Overall, its not perfect, but if we want to take the time, we can  
>> easily
>> compare it to the "TC[G]LUG" mailman list.
>>
>> On 10/9/08 12:52 AM, Jeremy wrote:
>>>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=CD7GazPY6zgYU6KRpyR9Qw_3d_3d
> 
> I don't think that restricting by IP address would be overly valid.  I  
> have, for example, access to hundreds of IPs.  I'm sure many here have  
> access to many more than that.
> 
> ---
> Eric Crist
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Oct  9 14:12:02 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:12:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <48EE5782.5070902@beer.tclug.org>

Smith, Craig A wrote:
> I'm shocked that anyone associated with a group devoted to the free and
> open exchange of software and ideas should be told to go away.  Perhaps
> you, Eric, should start your own group of intolerant bsd users?

  He could even call it the Twin Cities BSD Users Group!
  Wait, what?  Oh.  Crap.  Never mind...

      Jima


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Oct  9 14:14:45 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:14:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48EE5825.6080108@beer.tclug.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Jima wrote:
>> Mike Miller wrote:
>>> But I started this ball rolling and I suggested that people who were 
>>> voting were being disrespectful trouble-makers because no one had 
>>> suggested that we start voting at that moment.  So maybe people who 
>>> agreed with me didn't vote at first.
>>
>> Who exactly declared or signed off on the voting window?  It seemed a 
>> bit arbitrary to me.  Probably others, too.
> 
> I think no one declared it.  Some people, specifically those who opposed 
> a name change, just started sending in "votes" to the list.
> 
> They did this knowing full well that we were not ready, that we were 
> organizing plans, etc.

  Err, I think you're missing my point, that saying "we're not ready" 
and proclaiming a distant voting window was just as arbitrary and one-sided.
  That's the problem with getting a ball rolling: sometimes you can't 
control it once it picks up momentum.

      Jima


From haircut at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 14:18:11 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:18:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>
	<59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
Message-ID: <1223579891.28785.51.camel@localhost>

[ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[1st] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[2nd] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Here's my vote. Thus ends the objective portion of this email.

=~=~=~=

It was fun to see the vote start organically, and I'm sure quite
instructive for leaders of this group on how to run future
votes/surveys! It was done without elected TCLUG officials nor Robert's
Rules in true Bazaar fashion. An idea was forked, and the fork overtook
the original. :)

The recent deluge of email posts is productive. Sure, there's some chaff
here and there, but there's just so much dang participation! That's the
beauty of email, it costs virtually nothing to ignore the chaff. Note
that Gmane also provides USENET and RSS feeds of the list, making it
much easier to separate out the wheat.

I wanted to give a +1 to all the participants in the recent discussions
who focus on reinforcing positive behaviors and consistently write
productive comments. User group mailing lists, like USENET, like IRC,
like other public forums are not always places to cultivate social
graces. But you're raising the bar!

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From sloncho at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 14:24:08 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:24:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810091224lfed46b6ha1f64c39d9aaf7cc@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Dan Rue <drue at therub.org> wrote:
>
> I felt that we were entering into (or continuing) a classic bikeshed[1]
> argument, and thought that simply taking Florin's suggestion[2] of a
> ballot and previously used voting method would be sufficient to get the
> ball rolling.
>

While I agree, that we could talk and negotiate the voting for the
next 6 months, and it's better to act in these conditions, there is
one side effect. In every voting the questions asked (i.e. how you ask
them) and the options provided as answers can and usually affect the
results, so proper formulation of both is useful - and it takes time.

But - as it could take really long, maybe it is better that you acted.

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Oct  9 14:23:31 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:23:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <1223579891.28785.51.camel@localhost>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>	<48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>	<59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
	<1223579891.28785.51.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <48EE5A33.6010100@beer.tclug.org>

Adam Monsen wrote:
> It was fun to see the vote start organically, and I'm sure quite
> instructive for leaders of this group on how to run future
> votes/surveys! It was done without elected TCLUG officials nor Robert's
> Rules in true Bazaar fashion. An idea was forked, and the fork overtook
> the original. :)

  Well put, sir.

      Jima


From drue at therub.org  Thu Oct  9 14:54:53 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:54:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810091224lfed46b6ha1f64c39d9aaf7cc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
	<e7eeb230810091224lfed46b6ha1f64c39d9aaf7cc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081009195453.GC88040@therub.org>

On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 02:24:08PM -0500, Sunny wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Dan Rue <drue at therub.org> wrote:
> >
> > I felt that we were entering into (or continuing) a classic bikeshed[1]
> > argument, and thought that simply taking Florin's suggestion[2] of a
> > ballot and previously used voting method would be sufficient to get the
> > ball rolling.
> >
> 
> While I agree, that we could talk and negotiate the voting for the
> next 6 months, and it's better to act in these conditions, there is
> one side effect. In every voting the questions asked (i.e. how you ask
> them) and the options provided as answers can and usually affect the
> results, so proper formulation of both is useful - and it takes time.

Well, you're making a few assumptions.  1) an uninformed population
and/or 2) a static ballot.  If you believe an option is not covered,
write it in, and see if you can get a majority to switch their vote.  As
far as the first assumption, I can only assume that people geeky enough
to be voting in a poll in the TCLUG are going to be moderately
intelligent and informed people (I may regret saying so), 

Besides that, the questions seemed objective enough to me (keep in mind
I just stole them), and they were developed based on user input.
Indeed, there hasn't been a (serious) write-in, yet, so they can't be
that bad.

drue

-- 
As implied by email protocols, the information in this message is not
not confidential.  Any middle-man or recipient may inspect, modify,
copy, forward, reply to, delete, or filter email for any purpose.  As
the sender, I acknowledge that I have less expectation of the control
and privacy of this message than I would a post-card.  As a result,
nothing in this message is legally binding without cryptographic proof
of its integrity, and no legal obligation can be implied on behalf of
the recipient.  http://bilbo.hobbiton.org/wiki/Eat_My_Sig


From sloncho at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 14:59:21 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 14:59:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081009195453.GC88040@therub.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
	<e7eeb230810091224lfed46b6ha1f64c39d9aaf7cc@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081009195453.GC88040@therub.org>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810091259o5389906dv63c0874a0051d7ff@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:54 PM, Dan Rue <drue at therub.org> wrote:
> far as the first assumption, I can only assume that people geeky enough
> to be voting in a poll in the TCLUG are going to be moderately
> intelligent and informed people (I may regret saying so),
>

Hear, hear :)

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Oct  9 15:09:40 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:09:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <004701c92a4a$f7005370$e317a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>

My vote

[X] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  9 15:22:16 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:22:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091516000.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Dan Rue wrote:

> I felt that we were entering into (or continuing) a classic bikeshed[1] 
> argument

That makes no sense.  We were in the process of deciding how a vote could 
be undertaken.  I wrote that I would send out a message detailing what the 
proposed changes would be that we would then vote on.  You preempted that 
and other work.  It was not helpful.

This "vote" has been a complete mess, partly, you say, because of you.


> By my count, the "No Change" crowd is winning by a substantial margin to 
> the rest of the groups combined, so most of this discussion is moot 
> unless enough people change their vote, or enough additional votes come 
> in to create some sort of argument for change.

What will they win?  We obviously need to start another group to replace 
this one.  This is not really a group at all.  It's just an email 
distribution list.  A group has some kind of organizational structure.


> I'm not sure why "just voting" is being met so hostily, except perhaps 
> that the results are less than favorable to some people?

The "vote" was a disruption of a productive process.

Mike


From p.a.corbero at ieee.org  Thu Oct  9 15:49:32 2008
From: p.a.corbero at ieee.org (Paul A Corbero)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 14:49:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Suggestion about criteria for name selection
Message-ID: <48EE6E5C.C68AFBD5@ieee.org>

If we decide to modify the name it might be helpful to preserve the
previous name and the acronym which is the purpose for the change. A
suggestion:

TC.GNU.LUG




From dniesen at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 15:41:47 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:41:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Topic sanity so I can filter out name change messages?
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70810091341o4376ad6es2a9118fff7512854@mail.gmail.com>

Any chance folks are willing to put something unique in subject lines
so filtering out all of this name change discussion is possible?
Something along the order of [ncdiscuss]?

I've had to disable this account on my phone because the rapid
discussions are destroying my battery.

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From verigoth at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 15:47:26 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:47:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <004701c92a4a$f7005370$e317a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <004701c92a4a$f7005370$e317a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810091347l3b502d04sff0be298e8d1cdfc@mail.gmail.com>

[X] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)


From rbrown at rawmindz.com  Thu Oct  9 15:48:14 2008
From: rbrown at rawmindz.com (Robert Brown)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:48:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091516000.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091516000.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <916e208f0810091348k3ccf2634ibe9a0a4b2e9c94d6@mail.gmail.com>

Mike, I think we, like many here, just got bored with this discussion,
so we ignored the eventuality of your proposed changes.  Some may have
ignored them intentionally, while others, like myself, just did it
inadvertently, sheep-like, falling in line to what appeared to be
The-Inevitable-Vote which others had also put some time into
formulating.

Organized or not, structured, planned for and pruned... or not, the
votes are telling.  As a group, we don't appear to want to make a
formal change of our name.  Is this not good enough for us move on?

Rob

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:22 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Dan Rue wrote:
>
>> I felt that we were entering into (or continuing) a classic bikeshed[1]
>> argument
>
> That makes no sense.  We were in the process of deciding how a vote could
> be undertaken.  I wrote that I would send out a message detailing what the
> proposed changes would be that we would then vote on.  You preempted that
> and other work.  It was not helpful.
>
> This "vote" has been a complete mess, partly, you say, because of you.
>
>
>> By my count, the "No Change" crowd is winning by a substantial margin to
>> the rest of the groups combined, so most of this discussion is moot
>> unless enough people change their vote, or enough additional votes come
>> in to create some sort of argument for change.
>
> What will they win?  We obviously need to start another group to replace
> this one.  This is not really a group at all.  It's just an email
> distribution list.  A group has some kind of organizational structure.
>
>
>> I'm not sure why "just voting" is being met so hostily, except perhaps
>> that the results are less than favorable to some people?
>
> The "vote" was a disruption of a productive process.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Thu Oct  9 15:45:36 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:45:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091516000.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091345360.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081009190832.GA87343@therub.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091516000.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <12F3DF96-5CC9-47A6-B596-591A3E27C194@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 9, 2008, at 3:22 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, Dan Rue wrote:
>
>> I felt that we were entering into (or continuing) a classic  
>> bikeshed[1]
>> argument
>
> That makes no sense.  We were in the process of deciding how a vote  
> could
> be undertaken.  I wrote that I would send out a message detailing  
> what the
> proposed changes would be that we would then vote on.  You preempted  
> that
> and other work.  It was not helpful.
>
> This "vote" has been a complete mess, partly, you say, because of you.

Mike,

You're the only one who seems so upset about the voting process.   
You're the only one making noise about it, and the only one whose  
feathers seem ruffled.  It would appear that more people are OK with  
using the mailing list than are not OK with it.


>
>> By my count, the "No Change" crowd is winning by a substantial  
>> margin to
>> the rest of the groups combined, so most of this discussion is moot
>> unless enough people change their vote, or enough additional votes  
>> come
>> in to create some sort of argument for change.
>
> What will they win?  We obviously need to start another group to  
> replace
> this one.  This is not really a group at all.  It's just an email
> distribution list.  A group has some kind of organizational structure.

While you may start a new group, I hardly thing TCLUG as it stands  
will be replaced.

>> I'm not sure why "just voting" is being met so hostily, except  
>> perhaps
>> that the results are less than favorable to some people?
>
> The "vote" was a disruption of a productive process.


Productive by whose standards?  When did ownership of TCLUG fall to  
you?  Please stop trying to be the voice of the group.  I think the  
group can speak for itself.

---
Eric Crist






From pclinux at charter.net  Thu Oct  9 15:49:31 2008
From: pclinux at charter.net (Carl Zeilon)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 15:49:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3854.1223583047.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3854.1223583047.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <48EE6E5B.5090707@charter.net>

[X] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)




From verigoth at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 15:44:56 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 15:44:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Suggestion about criteria for name selection
In-Reply-To: <48EE6E5C.C68AFBD5@ieee.org>
References: <48EE6E5C.C68AFBD5@ieee.org>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810091344n7a2fa844j6dc9b8772c7126f6@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Paul A Corbero <p.a.corbero at ieee.org> wrote:
> If we decide to modify the name it might be helpful to preserve the
> previous name and the acronym which is the purpose for the change. A
> suggestion:
>
> TC.GNU.LUG

I like it! Except for the part in between the '.'s.


From tompoe at fngi.net  Thu Oct  9 16:08:09 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:08:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hardware question: hard drive bay too big?
Message-ID: <48EE72B9.4080102@fngi.net>

I got a dell dimension 4400 from one of the list members, without hard 
drive.  I opened the case, took my hard drive, and quickly got into 
trouble.  The obvious bay space is too big for holding my hard drive.  
Am I supposed to have some kind of frame or something that lets me slide 
a hard drive into the bay?
Beginner level question,
Tom


From dniesen at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 16:21:21 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:21:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hardware question: hard drive bay too big?
In-Reply-To: <48EE72B9.4080102@fngi.net>
References: <48EE72B9.4080102@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70810091421l3cd985f7x8ad83236990f1e22@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at fngi.net> wrote:
> I got a dell dimension 4400 from one of the list members, without hard
> drive.  I opened the case, took my hard drive, and quickly got into
> trouble.  The obvious bay space is too big for holding my hard drive.
> Am I supposed to have some kind of frame or something that lets me slide
> a hard drive into the bay?
> Beginner level question,
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

A lot of the Dell machines have trays or rails that you put on the
side of the drive.  If it's rails, they often put a few spares inside
the case somewhere.  If you can't find what you need, we often have
spares laying around our office from dead drives.  I'd be glad to give
you one.


-- 
Donovan Niesen


From tpenney at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 16:25:19 2008
From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:25:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hardware question: hard drive bay too big?
In-Reply-To: <48EE72B9.4080102@fngi.net>
References: <48EE72B9.4080102@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <5c596d0e0810091425k3ff4b260qbdab6db8e3adbdd5@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at fngi.net> wrote:
> I got a dell dimension 4400 from one of the list members, without hard
> drive.  I opened the case, took my hard drive, and quickly got into
> trouble.  The obvious bay space is too big for holding my hard drive.
> Am I supposed to have some kind of frame or something that lets me slide
> a hard drive into the bay?

Yes, something that resembles this
http://www.softarcade.net/-New-Dell-F9541-Hard-Drive-Carrier-SAS-Universal-Hotswap-Tray-NF467-G9146-MF666_p_22319.html

I have no idea if the is the right one for your server... it's just
the first photo I found


From dolson at multitech.com  Thu Oct  9 16:31:05 2008
From: dolson at multitech.com (Doug Olson)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 16:31:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NAME CHANGE PLAN
Message-ID: <1CD05B980C94AC408B37C82BBABAA3E60E3809C8@mtsexchange.dc.multitech.prv>


I am a Professional.  I have been a programmer/analyst for over 30
years.  As a professional I treat everyone with respect.

As professionals we have all worked on projects where: a) We created the
plan, b) Someone else created the plan or c) the plan was created on the
fly.  This voting has been a case where the plan was created on the fly.

Here is how I see the plan coming together.

1. 3 good options were presented.
[ ] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)
 
2. People started voting on Wednesday Oct.8.

3. Jordan &  Jeremy are tallying votes.

4. The cutoff date for voting will be 11:59pm Wednesday Oct. 15.

5. The results will be presented.  Any additional work will need to be
assigned.

If anyone sees a problem with this plan, then present your changes.
There has been discussion that voting started before a plan was in
place.  Each of us had the right to stop the voting and present a plan
for the voting procedure.  

Anyone can lobby for a specific selection by clearly and concisely
listing the pros and cons.

I would like to thank everyone for their work and ideas on this subject.
Doug 


From tompoe at fngi.net  Thu Oct  9 16:39:33 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 16:39:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hardware question: hard drive bay too big?
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70810091421l3cd985f7x8ad83236990f1e22@mail.gmail.com>
References: <48EE72B9.4080102@fngi.net>
	<47f4d5e70810091421l3cd985f7x8ad83236990f1e22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EE7A15.9070802@fngi.net>

Donovan wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 4:08 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at fngi.net> wrote:
>   
>> I got a dell dimension 4400 from one of the list members, without hard
>> drive.  I opened the case, took my hard drive, and quickly got into
>> trouble.  The obvious bay space is too big for holding my hard drive.
>> Am I supposed to have some kind of frame or something that lets me slide
>> a hard drive into the bay?
>> Beginner level question,
>> Tom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>     
>
> A lot of the Dell machines have trays or rails that you put on the
> side of the drive.  If it's rails, they often put a few spares inside
> the case somewhere.  If you can't find what you need, we often have
> spares laying around our office from dead drives.  I'd be glad to give
> you one.
>
>
>   
Donovan and all:  Thanks, much.  Found the green rails, and looks like 
we're up and running.
Tom


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 18:04:26 2008
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 18:04:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <82f04dc40810091604k4d243412n6250adaedfded0fc@mail.gmail.com>

I was just going to try to keep ignoring this ridiculous flame fest.
But then this opportunity came along for me to vote against a self
appointed power trying to prevent a vote - and show my self as
inconsiderate - which I've been accused of a few times :)

> That was 100% of the "votes" by the inconsiderate members, like yourself,
> who were not told to vote yet but are cluttering the list with wasteful
> nonsense.  So far there has been no vote.

My Vote:

  [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG



Which can also be read as:
  [X] Please, please, please, stop arguing over this stupid issue
already.  Tally up the votes, and if the loud, annoying minority still
wants to keep arguing over it, fork the mailing list.  Go argue
amongst yourselves for the next 6 months, then come back, and let us
know what you decided.


Dan Armbrust


From tanner at real-time.com  Thu Oct  9 17:48:54 2008
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 17:48:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] One or the other? Why not both?
Message-ID: <gcm1om$u4j$1@ger.gmane.org>

The signal to noise ratio is very high on the name change.  I've tried 
to follow the arguments and until now have passively let the community 
discuss(?) the issue.

The passion on both sides is actually refreshing. It's been a long time 
since I've seen the community moved to such great emotional out bursts. 
The last time I think this happened was the yahoo.com ban? :-)

But I'm also disheartened that a compromise wasn't found.

Would an acceptable compromise be to have both TCLUG and TCGLUG.

We've done something like this before. From our ancient days we had:

	[redhat|debian|slackware]-users groups.

Remember those?

Eventually they all collapsed in our present day TCLUG. But at one time 
the "code" did "fork".

Why not try splitting the community again?

Maybe competition from TCGLUG will put some spark back into TCLUG and 
www.tclug.org's old, stale web site might get re-worked. Or maybe 
TCGLUG will absorb TCLUG? Having both should keep everyone(?) almost 
happy.

Comments?

Seems like the first step is for someone to snarf the domain.

$ jwhois tcglug.org
[Querying whois.publicinterestregistry.net]
[whois.publicinterestregistry.net]
NOT FOUND

I'll offer free mailing lists, web space, etc, for the tcglug just like 
tclug. Or you can put it on one of the free hosted services (google 
groups?)

Thanks for your time.

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952 943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = F785 DDFC CF94 7CE8 AA87 3A9D 3895 26F1 0DDB E378




From dean at ripperd.com  Thu Oct  9 18:34:28 2008
From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 18:34:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <b9e05ef30810091347l3b502d04sff0be298e8d1cdfc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004701c92a4a$f7005370$e317a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<b9e05ef30810091347l3b502d04sff0be298e8d1cdfc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EE9504.7090109@ripperd.com>

My vote:

[ ] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)
[X] No opinion. I lurk 99.99% of the time anyway.


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct  9 19:09:02 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:09:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

We still don't know if anyone has permissions to change the web pages on 
tclug.org.  The outcome of any vote would be irrelevant if we don't know 
who can change the web pages.

There is no club president or any kind of officer.  There is no way to 
make decisions.  I was trying to find out who had some authority here when 
the "vote" spam ensued "spontaneously."  Now it seems that people are 
saying that it is better to have this kind of spam fest than to try to 
work with founding members to come up with a system for making group 
decisions.  OK, but I don't see how it is better.

It has gotten to the point now where the self-righteous types have started 
to chime in with messages saying that we shouldn't send messages.  I guess 
the anti-message message isn't obvious enough as a form of self-contained 
hypocrisy that the oblivious sender feels a twinge of shame.

I'll try to make it for pizza tomorrow.

Mike


From verigoth at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 19:24:12 2008
From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:24:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <b9e05ef30810091724p1f52fa58w648e929cd49108c1@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 7:09 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> We still don't know if anyone has permissions to change the web pages on
> tclug.org.  The outcome of any vote would be irrelevant if we don't know
> who can change the web pages.

Please just vote (if you haven't already) and if the consensus is to
change something we can deal with that when/if it comes up.  Then we
can move on and not fill up everybody's inbox with the same discussion
under a new subject every day.


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  9 21:12:27 2008
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:12:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <526232.99256.qm@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[  ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[  ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

Those wanting a change will find a way to do it no matter what the majority wants.  Religious zealots will not quit until they win.  Quit pretending to be interested in fairness and just do it!



From canito at dalan.us  Thu Oct  9 21:26:14 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 21:26:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <526232.99256.qm@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <526232.99256.qm@web32806.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20081009212614.3f1246ef@lalisee>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:12:27 -0700 (PDT)
Robert Wilkinson <r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com> wrote:

> [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
> [  ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
> [  ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
> 
> Those wanting a change will find a way to do it no matter what the majority wants.  Religious zealots will not quit until they win.  Quit pretending to be interested in fairness and just do it!
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 

You don't know me and you don't know fairness. If you call the majority those who've been negative and insulting, YA! We'll always win...


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Thu Oct  9 21:46:48 2008
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 19:46:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] (no subject)
Message-ID: <687399.80147.qm@web32803.mail.mud.yahoo.com>


>You don't know me and you don't know fairness. If you call the
majority those who've been negative >and insulting, YA! We'll always
win...


LOL!



From teeahr1 at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 21:54:36 2008
From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 21:54:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810092154.45560.teeahr1@gmail.com>

On Thursday October 9 2008 19:09:02 Mike Miller wrote:
> We still don't know if anyone has permissions to change the web pages on
> tclug.org.  The outcome of any vote would be irrelevant if we don't know
> who can change the web pages.
>
> There is no club president or any kind of officer.  There is no way to
> make decisions.  I was trying to find out who had some authority here when
> the "vote" spam ensued "spontaneously."  Now it seems that people are
> saying that it is better to have this kind of spam fest than to try to
> work with founding members to come up with a system for making group
> decisions.  OK, but I don't see how it is better.
>
> It has gotten to the point now where the self-righteous types have started
> to chime in with messages saying that we shouldn't send messages.  I guess
> the anti-message message isn't obvious enough as a form of self-contained
> hypocrisy that the oblivious sender feels a twinge of shame.
>
> I'll try to make it for pizza tomorrow.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

As the oblivious sender in question, I agree wholeheartedly. I was trying to 
return some modicum of civility to the discussion. It didn't work (obviously), 
it obviously wasn't welcome, so I've walked away from it. If you want to call 
me misguided, fine (Jima already did, maybe he's right), but please don't call 
me self-righteous. My intentions were good. No shame here, just a little 
disgust in the back of my mouth.

In any event, I've excused myself from the conversation. Frankly I think 
people are being assholes but I guess if that's the "collective will" or 
whatever then I'm not going to be able to stop it. I'm not going to talk about 
it, certainly not going to "vote" about it, if that's what we're calling this 
(no offense to Jordan or anybody else who's working hard at trying to make 
sense of all that, you've got nothing but admiration from me).

So that's the end of that. I agree, I think this is stupid, but I can't stop 
folks from being stupid. Sad story, the end.

I'll try and get there for pizza too. But frankly this whole experience has 
pretty much guaranteed that I'll never brave a larger TCLUG meeting. And that 
bums me out, I'd never been to one and I had kind of looked forward to doing 
that one day.

-pete, okay now i'm really done really for real
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From sraun at fireopal.org  Thu Oct  9 22:06:17 2008
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2008 22:06:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40810091604k4d243412n6250adaedfded0fc@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<FBFB7A41-D21F-4630-A3B4-205F65B03DB4@secure-computing.net>
	<200810081351.45777.teeahr1@gmail.com>
	<bada98250810081206o20171ci3484ca59d705d4c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810081419340.20610@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<82f04dc40810091604k4d243412n6250adaedfded0fc@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081010030617.GB13387@fireopal.org>

On Thu, Oct 09, 2008 at 06:04:26PM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> Which can also be read as:
>   [X] Please, please, please, stop arguing over this stupid issue
> already.  Tally up the votes, and if the loud, annoying minority still
> wants to keep arguing over it, fork the mailing list.  Go argue
> amongst yourselves for the next 6 months, then come back, and let us
> know what you decided.

My Vote:

  [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
  [X] Don't care

Which can be read very similar to Dan's.  I stopped reading 95% of the
messages with subject lines saying something about the LUG name
earlier this week.  I'll be very happy when the topic disappears.

-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org


From haircut at gmail.com  Thu Oct  9 23:12:40 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:12:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
In-Reply-To: <200810092154.45560.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810092154.45560.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223611960.23968.2.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 21:54 -0500, p.daniels wrote:
> I'll try and get there for pizza too.

Cool! Hope you can make it. Last time was fun--relaxed, small. Good
conversation.

> But frankly this whole experience has pretty much guaranteed that I'll
> never brave a larger TCLUG meeting.

Just because of some flames on the listserv?

Hang in there, Pete! You sound like a very intelligent person, one I'd
like to meet.

Folks that come out guns blazing on a mailing list are doubtless much
different face to face. :)

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From tompoe at fngi.net  Thu Oct  9 23:26:43 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2008 23:26:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] next question on computer start-up
Message-ID: <48EED983.7060700@fngi.net>

I installed a 40GB hard drive in dell dimension 4400, started it, and 
went to setup.  I set the boot to use CD-ROM as first choice.  Placed 
fc9 dvd in drive, and restarted.  It went to grub.  I took out the dvd, 
and put in an AsteriskNow! cd, and restarted.  It went to grub prompt, 
again.  Any help to get computer to start and use CD-ROM drive?
Tom


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 00:35:29 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:35:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] fun with ansi, perl and less
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810100033410.6346@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

Here's a little bash script I just made to help me to view files.  I like 
to use "cat -A" to see the tabs, carriage returns, spaces at ends of 
lines, etc. I think there is no "less -A" so usually do this:

cat -A file | less

But it would be even cooler with color, so I came up with the script below 
to color things up a little -- in order: tab is ^I in bold red, carriage 
return is ^M in bold green, end of line is a bold blue dollar sign, and 
spaces are magenta periods.  Other control characters should appear in 
reverse video because I use less -R to show the colors properly (for older 
versions of less, if "less -R" doesn't work, use "less -r").

I call the script "less-A".  It can read stdout or take a filename 
argument.

Mike


#!/bin/bash

# Usage:
#
# less-A filename
# cat filename | less-A

perl -pe 's/\t/\033[31m\033[1m^I\033[0m/g ; \
s/\r/\033[32m\033[1m^M\033[0m/g ; \
s/\n/\033[34m\033[1m\$\033[0m\n/ ; \
s/ /\033[35m.\033[0m/g' "$1" | less -R


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 00:43:20 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 00:43:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
In-Reply-To: <200810092154.45560.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810092154.45560.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810100041500.6346@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 9 Oct 2008, p.daniels wrote:

> As the oblivious sender in question....


I'm sure it wasn't you, Pete.  You have been a voice of reason throughout 
most of this.  I hope I'll meet you someday.

Mike


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Fri Oct 10 06:08:35 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 06:08:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] next question on computer start-up
In-Reply-To: <48EED983.7060700@fngi.net>
References: <48EED983.7060700@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <48EF37B3.6050503@beer.tclug.org>

Tom Poe wrote:
> I installed a 40GB hard drive in dell dimension 4400, started it, and 
> went to setup.  I set the boot to use CD-ROM as first choice.  Placed 
> fc9 dvd in drive, and restarted.  It went to grub.  I took out the dvd, 
> and put in an AsteriskNow! cd, and restarted.  It went to grub prompt, 
> again.  Any help to get computer to start and use CD-ROM drive?

  Dells usually have a "boot menu" key when starting up, which ISTR is 
typically F12.  (There ought to be a message, unless it's disabled.) 
Otherwise you can go into the BIOS (F1? F2? it varies) and change the 
boot order permanently.

      Jima


From tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com  Fri Oct 10 07:11:39 2008
From: tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com (Robert De Mars)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:11:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <48EF467B.8060602@b-o-b.homelinux.com>

[X] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)



From rsinland at gvtel.com  Fri Oct 10 08:32:16 2008
From: rsinland at gvtel.com (Robert Sinland)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 08:32:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
Message-ID: <48EF5960.9060501@gvtel.com>

 

   [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
   [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
   [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG




From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Fri Oct 10 09:02:55 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:02:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3867.1223607354.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3867.1223607354.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <11305.136.229.5.52.1223647375.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

My vote:

[ ] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)
[X] No opinion.

Even after voicing my opinion, I realized that I barely feel part of this
community. I haven't been to a meeting in a long time, haven't helped
organize anything, and usually just delete everything, and quickly.

And when I have questions, (and since I'm pretty tech-savvy, I have...
interesting issues,) this group has not been a great source of technical
information.

And I don't have any answers on how to encourage this community to be of
more value to more people.

So whatever happens, it's really no sweat to me.

Chris





From sloncho at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 09:37:44 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:37:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] One or the other? Why not both?
In-Reply-To: <gcm1om$u4j$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gcm1om$u4j$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810100737v44026ab3se627414862e4fb20@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com> wrote:
>
> Why not try splitting the community again?
>

Because it's different than redhat/debian/etc. stuff. If I have
problem with redhat, I'll go to a "redhat" group.

But tclug, besides promotional, etc., activities, serve as a good
platform for asking and solving generic linux related problems. Having
two groups limits the number of possible answers. Or one have to post
to both. As well as will be a confusion for newcomers - it's enough
that they have to choose between thousands of distros to start with -
now lets confuse them with tiny philosophical details in order for
them to decide where they would like to belong.

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From sloncho at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 09:39:46 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:39:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810100739m75715b7av7906a7cd378f8138@mail.gmail.com>

[X] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From jwo at umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 09:51:27 2008
From: jwo at umn.edu (Jonathan Osborne)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:51:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810100739m75715b7av7906a7cd378f8138@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e7eeb230810100739m75715b7av7906a7cd378f8138@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48EF6BEF.1020400@umn.edu>

[X] No Change
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCLUG)
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux Users Group (TCGLUG)



Jonathan Osborne
jwo at umn.edu



From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Oct 10 09:55:33 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 09:55:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
In-Reply-To: <200810092154.45560.teeahr1@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810092154.45560.teeahr1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810100955.34065.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> I'll try and get there for pizza too. But frankly this whole experience has
> pretty much guaranteed that I'll never brave a larger TCLUG meeting. And

The meetings do not resemble this discussion in any way.

On Thursday 09 October 2008 9:54:36 pm p.daniels wrote:
> On Thursday October 9 2008 19:09:02 Mike Miller wrote:
> > We still don't know if anyone has permissions to change the web pages on
> > tclug.org.  The outcome of any vote would be irrelevant if we don't know
> > who can change the web pages.
> >
> > There is no club president or any kind of officer.  There is no way to
> > make decisions.  I was trying to find out who had some authority here
> > when the "vote" spam ensued "spontaneously."  Now it seems that people
> > are saying that it is better to have this kind of spam fest than to try
> > to work with founding members to come up with a system for making group
> > decisions.  OK, but I don't see how it is better.
> >
> > It has gotten to the point now where the self-righteous types have
> > started to chime in with messages saying that we shouldn't send messages.
> >  I guess the anti-message message isn't obvious enough as a form of
> > self-contained hypocrisy that the oblivious sender feels a twinge of
> > shame.
> >
> > I'll try to make it for pizza tomorrow.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> As the oblivious sender in question, I agree wholeheartedly. I was trying
> to return some modicum of civility to the discussion. It didn't work
> (obviously), it obviously wasn't welcome, so I've walked away from it. If
> you want to call me misguided, fine (Jima already did, maybe he's right),
> but please don't call me self-righteous. My intentions were good. No shame
> here, just a little disgust in the back of my mouth.
>
> In any event, I've excused myself from the conversation. Frankly I think
> people are being assholes but I guess if that's the "collective will" or
> whatever then I'm not going to be able to stop it. I'm not going to talk
> about it, certainly not going to "vote" about it, if that's what we're
> calling this (no offense to Jordan or anybody else who's working hard at
> trying to make sense of all that, you've got nothing but admiration from
> me).
>
> So that's the end of that. I agree, I think this is stupid, but I can't
> stop folks from being stupid. Sad story, the end.
>
> I'll try and get there for pizza too. But frankly this whole experience has
> pretty much guaranteed that I'll never brave a larger TCLUG meeting. And
> that bums me out, I'd never been to one and I had kind of looked forward to
> doing that one day.
>
> -pete, okay now i'm really done really for real




From josh at tcbug.org  Fri Oct 10 09:56:59 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:56:59 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48EE5782.5070902@beer.tclug.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<48EE5782.5070902@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <48EF6D3B.8080901@tcbug.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Jima wrote:
> Smith, Craig A wrote:
>> I'm shocked that anyone associated with a group devoted to the free and
>> open exchange of software and ideas should be told to go away.  Perhaps
>> you, Eric, should start your own group of intolerant bsd users?
> 
>   He could even call it the Twin Cities BSD Users Group!
>   Wait, what?  Oh.  Crap.  Never mind...
> 
>       Jima

Sorry, that one is taken.

Interestingly,

I can't think of a member of TCBUG that doesn't use linux.  And a big
chunk of them will say there are problem sets for which linux is a good
solution, including myself, the founder of TCBUG, a FreeBSD committer
and PC-BSD core team member.

It would be interesting to know how many members of TCLUG use anything
but linux, and what their opinions on other unixes are.

In 13 odd years of open source unix-like varients/clones/whatever I've
run in to extremists from the BSD crowd and extremists from the linux
crowd.  It's hard to really get a feel for demographics, especially from
my perspective, but what I've observed about the "typical" linux user
compared to a "typical" BSD user is that the linux user is younger, more
passionate/leaning towards fanboyism, and highly likely to have only
seriously used linux and windows.  Of course anytime you make
generalizations you are going to get yourself in trouble with individual
cases.  Yes, there are 50 year old ex BSD users who run nothing but
linux anymore and have forgotten more about unix than I'll ever know.

- --
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB
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=B9bo
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From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Oct 10 10:03:37 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:03:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <20081009130437.mkjqn2ee7ks88kcg@mail.dalan.us>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<20081009130437.mkjqn2ee7ks88kcg@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <200810101003.37355.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate
> the efforts.

A new group is a bad idea.  This is a tempest in a teacup, and it will pass.  

Functionally speaking, splitting the group will not accomplish anything, 
except to reduce the usefulness of the mailing list, and make it that much 
harder to have meetings.  


On Thursday 09 October 2008 1:04:37 pm David Alanis wrote:
> Good Day,
>
> I'd like to thank those who have asserted positive attitude towards
> the name change. In conversation with a few list members, they have
> quietly expressed outrage about the few people who keep insinuating
> people who want to see change was only brought about because of who
> RMS is. I personally, did not find his e-mail insulting nor do I
> admire the guy personally. I do however, admire the work and the
> inspiration his generation fought for and the foundation leading to
> what we have available today "free software".
>
> Two of these people (including myself) thought about leaving the list.
> Nothing too personal, just the fact there is few people spoiling it
> for the rest of us.
> I will openly say, that I admire the work and principle Mike Miller
> (including Florin Lucha, Jima and many others!) has introduced with
> the name change thread. And think he can be of great influence and
> education to people like me who want change, who are tired of not
> having structure, and who can actually lead the list with an unbiased
> mind.
>
> Again, my vote for change is NOT and never was because RMS called for
> it and I think I speak for others. But primarily because it would be
> natural. I vote for a "NEW" group where open-mindedness is welcome,
> structure with leadership, and participation without facing criticism
> or reprimand.
>
> Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate
> the efforts.
>
> David
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Oct 10 10:05:13 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:05:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091302520.5595@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48EE4CD1.6010409@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <200810101005.13976.tclug@lizakowski.com>


The wednesday cutoff that someone proposed sounds fairly reasonable.

Quite frankly, I think the vote tally will declare a winner before then.

On Thursday 09 October 2008 1:26:25 pm Jima wrote:
> Mike Miller wrote:
> > But I started this ball rolling and I suggested that people who were
> > voting were being disrespectful trouble-makers because no one had
> > suggested that we start voting at that moment.  So maybe people who
> > agreed with me didn't vote at first.
>
>   Who exactly declared or signed off on the voting window?  It seemed a
> bit arbitrary to me.  Probably others, too.
>
>       Jima
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Oct 10 10:07:03 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:07:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <254fef0f0810091151v122cd749m61ee19c06830dd99@mail.gmail.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810090057.08089.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<254fef0f0810091151v122cd749m61ee19c06830dd99@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810101007.03826.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> Well, given that Mailman is open-source, this is very much technically
> feasible (presumably one could write a PHP page that would ask for an

My inner programmer agrees.

>However, I highly doubt that
> it's worth the trouble right at the moment on short notice,

My inner project-manager agrees.  :)

Jeremy

On Thursday 09 October 2008 1:51:51 pm Tony Yarusso wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Jeremy <tclug at lizakowski.com> wrote:
> > We have one authentication mechanism: the list.
> >
> > To use any other system involves exporting the database or comparing it
> > somehow.
>
> Well, given that Mailman is open-source, this is very much technically
> feasible (presumably one could write a PHP page that would ask for an
> e-mail address and a vote, check the e-mail address for a valid
> subscriber, then mark them as having voted, without connecting the
> address and the vote in the results).  However, I highly doubt that
> it's worth the trouble right at the moment on short notice, unless
> anyone is particularly bored.  It does strike me as a piece of
> software that would be commonly useful though.  (Maybe it's been
> done?)




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Oct 10 10:10:23 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:10:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Sorry Sunny - Google Doc with ALL votes up to the
	minute tallied
In-Reply-To: <bada98250810091123qf9d7930x90f3b5f682080aca@mail.gmail.com>
References: <bada98250810091123qf9d7930x90f3b5f682080aca@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <200810101010.23387.tclug@lizakowski.com>


Doesn't work.  
In konqueror, the document displays, but can't scroll.  
In firefox, google asks me to log in.

How do you access it?

On Thursday 09 October 2008 1:23:33 pm Jordan Peacock wrote:
> Here's the link: can be viewed without signing in.
>
> http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=pCa5A8yIwQKyTSkCKqzNpdQ
>
> Even if we end up changing the finally tallying system or methodology, I
> wanted to have a clear record established. I'll maintain this list as long
> as voting occurs OR until an alternate methodology is agreed upon.
>
> If you wish to change your vote, simply message the list with your updated
> information. I will add it as a second vote unless you make it clear that
> you do NOT wish your earlier vote to be counted.
>
> Peace
>
> ======================
> Jordan Peacock
> hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
> hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com




From haircut at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 10:10:37 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:10:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown,
	11:30am Friday - >> AT POTBELLY	<<
In-Reply-To: <1223566602.28785.5.camel@localhost>
References: <1223497085.23004.13.camel@localhost>
	<47f4d5e70810081324w1f464c2awca824b249fcf64a5@mail.gmail.com>
	<200810090144.15747.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<1223566602.28785.5.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1223651437.12417.7.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 10:36 -0500, Adam Monsen wrote:
> So let's do _Potbelly Sandwich Works_. It's at the corner of 14th Ave SE
> and 4th St SE. I like their sandwiches and they have great barrel
> pickles, too.

Just wanted to confirm that there is going to be an impromptu group
lunch today. Please note the new location.

I just found out I have a meeting at noon, so I'm going to head to
Potbelly around 11am and stay until 11:50am.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Oct 10 10:19:22 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 10:19:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]
	=?utf-8?q?impromptu_lunch_in_Dinkytown=2C_11=3A30am_?=
	=?utf-8?q?Friday_-_=3E=3E_AT_POTBELLY_=3C=3C?=
In-Reply-To: <1223651437.12417.7.camel@localhost>
References: <1223497085.23004.13.camel@localhost>
	<1223566602.28785.5.camel@localhost>
	<1223651437.12417.7.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <200810101019.22385.tclug@lizakowski.com>


That's good, I have a noon meeting too.  11AM us better.

On Friday 10 October 2008 10:10:37 am Adam Monsen wrote:
> On Thu, 2008-10-09 at 10:36 -0500, Adam Monsen wrote:
> > So let's do _Potbelly Sandwich Works_. It's at the corner of 14th Ave SE
> > and 4th St SE. I like their sandwiches and they have great barrel
> > pickles, too.
>
> Just wanted to confirm that there is going to be an impromptu group
> lunch today. Please note the new location.
>
> I just found out I have a meeting at noon, so I'm going to head to
> Potbelly around 11am and stay until 11:50am.


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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 11:12:04 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:12:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] other unixes (was "Name Change Vote")
In-Reply-To: <48EF6D3B.8080901@tcbug.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<48EE5782.5070902@beer.tclug.org> <48EF6D3B.8080901@tcbug.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101108340.5519@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote:

> It would be interesting to know how many members of TCLUG use anything 
> but linux, and what their opinions on other unixes are.

I have used Solaris extensively and also IRIX, Tru64, AIX and Mac OS X.

These days I just want to use GNU/Linux because it is widely used, most 
stuff is available in packages, and if I have to compile things it 
normally goes best for me on a Linux system because of the GNU utils -- 
most people make sure their software compiles with GCC, GNU make, etc.  I 
want to use free software exclusively if that is possible.  I'm working 
toward that now and am getting close.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 11:14:27 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:14:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <200810101003.37355.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<20081009130437.mkjqn2ee7ks88kcg@mail.dalan.us>
	<200810101003.37355.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101112430.5519@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Jeremy wrote:

>> Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate 
>> the efforts.
>
> A new group is a bad idea.  This is a tempest in a teacup, and it will 
> pass.
>
> Functionally speaking, splitting the group will not accomplish anything, 
> except to reduce the usefulness of the mailing list, and make it that 
> much harder to have meetings.


Maybe it will create even more opportunity than we have now.  This group 
is not very active and it has no leadership.

Mike


From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 11:23:08 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:23:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] other unixes (was "Name Change Vote")
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101108340.5519@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<48EE5782.5070902@beer.tclug.org> <48EF6D3B.8080901@tcbug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101108340.5519@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <bada98250810100923xa7601fbgb6b14c76b16215be@mail.gmail.com>

I spend my day alternating between Linux (Ubuntu 8.04), Windows (XP SP3), OS
X (10.4) and OS/400 (V5R4 and occasionally V6R1). I've touched on FreeBSD
but not much more than that.

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:12 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>wrote:

> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote:
>
> > It would be interesting to know how many members of TCLUG use anything
> > but linux, and what their opinions on other unixes are.
>
> I have used Solaris extensively and also IRIX, Tru64, AIX and Mac OS X.
>
> These days I just want to use GNU/Linux because it is widely used, most
> stuff is available in packages, and if I have to compile things it
> normally goes best for me on a Linux system because of the GNU utils --
> most people make sure their software compiles with GCC, GNU make, etc.  I
> want to use free software exclusively if that is possible.  I'm working
> toward that now and am getting close.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tanner at real-time.com  Fri Oct 10 11:35:42 2008
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:35:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] One or the other? Why not both?
References: <gcm1om$u4j$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e7eeb230810100737v44026ab3se627414862e4fb20@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <gco08t$t6l$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2008-10-10 09:37:44 -0500, Sunny <sloncho at gmail.com> said:

> But tclug, besides promotional, etc., activities, serve as a good
> platform for asking and solving generic linux related problems. Having
> two groups limits the number of possible answers.
> 

Having -more- choices to ask questions limits the number of possible 
answer? I believe more places to ask your questions would give you 
-more- possible answers.

> Or one have to post
> to both.

Welcome to cross-posting.

> now lets confuse them with tiny philosophical details in order for
> them to decide where they would like to belong.

It's interesting to me that "choice" is being used as a negative thing. 
 Isn't the whole GNU thing about choice?

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952 943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = F785 DDFC CF94 7CE8 AA87 3A9D 3895 26F1 0DDB E378




From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Fri Oct 10 11:40:09 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:40:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3890.1223655914.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3890.1223655914.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <10549.136.229.5.52.1223656809.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:14:27 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>

> Maybe it [a new group] will create even more opportunity than we have
> now.  This group is not very active and it has no leadership.

The problem with making a new group that has leadership, is that people
will have to be recruited to be leaders. While that may be easy at the
beginning, not many people will volunteer to be a group president for a
term, so you have to watch out for feelings of exclusion (in those not
being leaders) and burnout (in those who are).

It can be done, to be sure, but if leadership is really wanted, you might
consider stepping up (not saying you haven't done good things for us
already) and leading this group: Organize meetings, installfests, talks,
get-togethers, hackfests and so on. People will appreciate it. I know I
would appreciate that effort, unless it conflicts with my other hobbies,
interests, doesn't have free parking, etc. etc. :)

Chris





From tanner at real-time.com  Fri Oct 10 11:43:10 2008
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:43:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <gco0mu$vab$1@ger.gmane.org>

On 2008-10-09 19:09:02 -0500, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> said:

> We still don't know if anyone has permissions to change the web pages on
> tclug.org.  The outcome of any vote would be irrelevant if we don't know
> who can change the web pages.

Community member jima owns the tclug.org domain, jwhois for details.

The site runs on my hardware, uses my bandwidth, sits in my data 
center. I have root on the box so I can do "what I want". I paid a 
professional graphic designer to work up the current logo.

The last offical administrator of the web site was Clay F.  I'm not 
sure who as the ability to change the site now.

As I stated in my "One or the other? Why not both?" thread, why not 
setup everything in parallel to current site and just re-brand it to 
tcglug?

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner at real-time.com>          | Phone : (952 943-8700
http://www.real-time.com, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
Key fingerprint = F785 DDFC CF94 7CE8 AA87 3A9D 3895 26F1 0DDB E378




From florin at iucha.net  Fri Oct 10 11:50:58 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:50:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] One or the other? Why not both?
In-Reply-To: <gco08t$t6l$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <gcm1om$u4j$1@ger.gmane.org>
	<e7eeb230810100737v44026ab3se627414862e4fb20@mail.gmail.com>
	<gco08t$t6l$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <20081010165057.GH3139@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 11:35:42AM -0500, Bob Tanner wrote:
> Having -more- choices to ask questions limits the number of possible 
> answer? I believe more places to ask your questions would give you 
> -more- possible answers.

Not necessarily;  an economist could point you to some body of knowledge,
but intuitively, in a larger market, it is more probable for a producer
and consumer to meet and conclude an useful transaction than in a few
smaller markets.  When you think "on-line auctions" you think "ebay".
Love it or hate it, everybody goes there because... everybody goes
there.

> > Or one have to post
> > to both.
> 
> Welcome to cross-posting.

If there is one thing more annoying than off-topic messages, it must
be cross-posted off-topic messages.  If we look back in the archives,
a sizable portion of the traffic is off-topic.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Fri Oct 10 12:16:49 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:16:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] How about more inclusive instead of less?
Message-ID: <8514.136.229.5.52.1223659009.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

I saw a headline today that mentioned NOOSS - the Northeast Ohio Open
Source Society, and I thought that was a good thing.

We could become (or someone could start) the Open Source Software Users of
Minnesota. The ossu.mn domain is available, and I'm sure someone can come
up with a better name, but that's really secondary.

One place to go for GNU software, Linux, xBSD, FreeDOS, ReactOS, and so
on, and all the open applications on all of those platforms. I can't
imagine it would generate much more traffic than we already have.

Discuss.

Chris





From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 12:39:52 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:39:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <10549.136.229.5.52.1223656809.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
References: <mailman.3890.1223655914.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<10549.136.229.5.52.1223656809.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101237130.12119@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Chris Schumann wrote:

> It can be done, to be sure, but if leadership is really wanted, you 
> might consider stepping up (not saying you haven't done good things for 
> us already) and leading this group: Organize meetings, installfests, 
> talks, get-togethers, hackfests and so on. People will appreciate it. I 
> know I would appreciate that effort, unless it conflicts with my other 
> hobbies, interests, doesn't have free parking, etc. etc. :)

I am thinking about it but I want to do a few other things first.  Once I 
have a computer that we can use for web service and I can manage the 
software on it reasonably well, I'll do it.  It will take a few months but 
I'm not in a hurry.  I would say that TCLUG is broken but still working -- 
like an old car -- I'll want a new car someday, but I'm saving up to make 
sure it's a really good one.

Mike


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Fri Oct 10 13:26:45 2008
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:26:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] other unixes
In-Reply-To: <bada98250810100923xa7601fbgb6b14c76b16215be@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187B9FA@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60187BC2A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<48EE5782.5070902@beer.tclug.org> <48EF6D3B.8080901@tcbug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101108340.5519@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<bada98250810100923xa7601fbgb6b14c76b16215be@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223663205.28435.1278638999@webmail.messagingengine.com>

My preference is GNU/Linux for three reasons.
1) I like the functionality in the GNU versions of the standard UNIX
utilities.
2) The variety of distributions from which to chose. I really like
Gentoo because of the level at which you can customize your system.
3) It's free software and promotes copyleft.

I regularly use Solaris because that's the system on which I do most of
my job. ZFS does a good job of handling very large files systems and
files.

I also use Cygwin because it gives me UNIX on my XP machine at work.
It's great for those who can't live without their UNIX utilities.

I also use AIX at work but it seems to lack a lot of the utilities and
options that are commonly found on Linux. This may just be a problem
with the default installation.

I've used FreeBSD in the past and it works great. I really like Ports
package management.


From markdeb.browne at comcast.net  Fri Oct 10 13:39:35 2008
From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (markdeb.browne at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:39:35 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
Message-ID: <101020081839.13311.48EFA1670008F11B000033FF22092246270A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>


Mike,

I'm curious - what exactly do you think "leadership" might look like?

As it stands - if someone feels like driving something they can take the ball and run with it.
This make whoever leads an a particular item the leader on however much they choose to take on.

I like to think of it as distributed leadership.

I used to work with, and sometime organize, the *first* microcomputer computer club (SCEAM)  in the twin cities area. The tasks mostly consisted of Newsletters (paper) printing, mailing and drumming up related advertising and editorial content, arranging, setting up and cleaning up meeting spaces, lining up speakers, and community projects which was mostly hardware support for nonprofit groups.

I don't think it worked ANY better than what TCLUG is doing with distributed leadership,and the people that did the work did it until they got tired of it, and tired of being bitched at because people that did not actually do any of the work thought what was done was being done poorly.

It does get old.

Let me turn this back to you - do YOU want to lead the group in some direction?

Mark Browne



 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, Jeremy wrote:
> 
> >> Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate 
> >> the efforts.
> >
> > A new group is a bad idea.  This is a tempest in a teacup, and it will 
> > pass.
> >
> > Functionally speaking, splitting the group will not accomplish anything, 
> > except to reduce the usefulness of the mailing list, and make it that 
> > much harder to have meetings.
> 
> 
> Maybe it will create even more opportunity than we have now.  This group 
> is not very active and it has no leadership.
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 10 14:04:08 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:04:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101112430.5519@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEECPCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 11:14 AM
>
> Maybe it will create even more opportunity than we have now.  This group
> is not very active and it has no leadership.

Historically, this group TRULY WANTS NO LEADERSHIP or other activity than the list and occasional impromptu gatherings for beer or
chow.

Imposing leadership (and/or stronger ties to UMN) is likely to kill more of it...  or just kill the off-campus interest.

Seems like most of the "working professionals" I know who are users of Linux/unix are elsewhere already (eg, in professional
associations and applications groups, and not this "OS group").


Chuck





From trnja001 at umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 14:22:34 2008
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:22:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEECPCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEECPCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <48EFAB7A.6040509@umn.edu>

Chuck Cole wrote:
>> Maybe it will create even more opportunity than we have now.  This group
>> is not very active and it has no leadership.
>>     
>
> Historically, this group TRULY WANTS NO LEADERSHIP or other activity than the list and occasional impromptu gatherings for beer or
> chow.
>
> Imposing leadership (and/or stronger ties to UMN) is likely to kill more of it...  or just kill the off-campus interest.
>   
What is your problem with the U? I can't remember any message of yours 
that doesn't mention 'any association to the U is going to kill off 
interest in TCLUG' or worse. Historically, you're wrong.

Some leadership for this group would be good - at least we would have 
someone actively trying to set up meetings (and look for speakers) or 
installfests instead of what we have now.




From strayf at freeshell.org  Fri Oct 10 14:23:21 2008
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:23:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEECPCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEECPCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <48EFABA9.6070609@freeshell.org>

Chuck Cole wrote:
> [...]
> Imposing leadership (and/or stronger ties to UMN) is likely to kill more of it...  or just kill the off-campus interest.
> 

Huh? I'm starting to get the impression that even if this were an emacs vs. 
vi discussion you'd manage to work in a comment about your antipathy to the 
UMN.

-Steve


From sloncho at gmail.com  Fri Oct 10 14:32:18 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:32:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How about more inclusive instead of less?
In-Reply-To: <8514.136.229.5.52.1223659009.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
References: <8514.136.229.5.52.1223659009.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810101232r4ebd830cpdaf225ccb78ffa77@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Chris Schumann <cschumann at twp-llc.com> wrote:
> I saw a headline today that mentioned NOOSS - the Northeast Ohio Open
> Source Society, and I thought that was a good thing.
>
> We could become (or someone could start) the Open Source Software Users of
> Minnesota. The ossu.mn domain is available, and I'm sure someone can come
> up with a better name, but that's really secondary.
>
> One place to go for GNU software, Linux, xBSD, FreeDOS, ReactOS, and so
> on, and all the open applications on all of those platforms. I can't
> imagine it would generate much more traffic than we already have.
>
> Discuss.
>
> Chris
>

Yep, and most of the trafic will be flame wars between Linux and BSD guys :-P

Just kidding, nice idea.

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Fri Oct 10 14:31:53 2008
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:31:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <48EFABA9.6070609@freeshell.org>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGEECPCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<48EFABA9.6070609@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <fa17c9630810101231o29c93068g2a7f22df01ef1cc1@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Steve Cayford <strayf at freeshell.org> wrote:
> Chuck Cole wrote:
>> [...]
>> Imposing leadership (and/or stronger ties to UMN) is likely to kill more of it...  or just kill the off-campus interest.
>>
>
> Huh? I'm starting to get the impression that even if this were an emacs vs.
> vi discussion you'd manage to work in a comment about your antipathy to the
> UMN.

because you know, Vi is used at the UMN and therefore is associated
with the UMN and must be evil.


From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 14:34:05 2008
From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:34:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <1223579891.28785.51.camel@localhost>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>
	<59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
	<1223579891.28785.51.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <39052.64.83.234.193.1223667245.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>


[3] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[1] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[2] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List
(TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/
Never laugh at live dragons  |




From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Oct 10 14:49:06 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:49:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How about more inclusive instead of less?
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810101232r4ebd830cpdaf225ccb78ffa77@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8514.136.229.5.52.1223659009.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<e7eeb230810101232r4ebd830cpdaf225ccb78ffa77@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9BEF14EB-48DC-489B-B7B5-222680507BAA@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 10, 2008, at 2:32 PM, Sunny wrote:

> On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 12:16 PM, Chris Schumann <cschumann at twp-llc.com 
> > wrote:
>> I saw a headline today that mentioned NOOSS - the Northeast Ohio Open
>> Source Society, and I thought that was a good thing.
>>
>> We could become (or someone could start) the Open Source Software  
>> Users of
>> Minnesota. The ossu.mn domain is available, and I'm sure someone  
>> can come
>> up with a better name, but that's really secondary.
>>
>> One place to go for GNU software, Linux, xBSD, FreeDOS, ReactOS,  
>> and so
>> on, and all the open applications on all of those platforms. I can't
>> imagine it would generate much more traffic than we already have.
>>
>> Discuss.
>>
>> Chris
>>
>
> Yep, and most of the trafic will be flame wars between Linux and BSD  
> guys :-P
>
> Just kidding, nice idea.


Only because the Linux guys won't believe *BSD is better. :P

---
Eric Crist






From markdeb.browne at comcast.net  Fri Oct 10 15:12:19 2008
From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (markdeb.browne at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 20:12:19 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
Message-ID: <101020082012.21213.48EFB72300033034000052DD22073000330A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>

 Elvedin,


Do you feel strongly enough about wanting "someone" to set up meetings, arrange 
speakers, etc. to volunteer to do it?

We don't stand on ceremony here - If you look at the archives you can see how we 
have done installfests in the past.
If you want an an installfest put out feelers on the list and see if you can 
build critical mass.
If enough people with sufficient resources want one we have one.

Mark Browne

> Some leadership for this group would be good - at least we would have 
> someone actively trying to set up meetings (and look for speakers) or 
> installfests instead of what we have now.


From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Oct 10 15:21:51 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:21:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <48EFAB7A.6040509@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEMKNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elvedin Trnjanin [mailto:trnja001 at umn.edu]
> Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 2:23 PM
>
> Chuck Cole wrote:
> >> Maybe it will create even more opportunity than we have now.  This group
> >> is not very active and it has no leadership.
> >>
> >
> > Historically, this group TRULY WANTS NO LEADERSHIP or other activity than the list and occasional impromptu gatherings
> for beer or
> > chow.
> >
> > Imposing leadership (and/or stronger ties to UMN) is likely to kill more of it...  or just kill the off-campus interest.
> >
> What is your problem with the U? I can't remember any message of yours
> that doesn't mention 'any association to the U is going to kill off
> interest in TCLUG' or worse. Historically, you're wrong.

No: that's historical FACT for over 20 years I know of personally (and more told by designated historians of the associations).  The
20 or so professional associations (technical ones) with local membership of about 20,000 comprised of those who have graduated
already from various universities CHOOSE NOT TO MEET THERE or be affiliated.  Parking is a big reason, but the U itself has been
hostile to properly constituted national organizations that are not under control of the U, except for student groups which are
under U control.  I tried to improve things for 5 years as VP of an umbrella group for these associations, and had mission, had the
mailing lists, and had alumni help, so my info is quite valid.  Connections and help were of no use.  I had a professional research
fund-providing interface also.  The U taught me/us that a connection with or to them is "not productive to pursue" and can be bad
sometimes.  You may contact the professional associations yourself (perhaps  you qualify for membership in some or are a member) and
ask them why they ceased meeting there long ago.  Once you've contacted five or more associations, you can begin to see this picture
and know what the history really is.

> Some leadership for this group would be good - at least we would have
> someone actively trying to set up meetings (and look for speakers) or
> installfests instead of what we have now.

The group has discussed leadership before and chose to avoid any.  I favored and proposed some as a 501c3 non-profit, but not at or
by the U.  Maybe now it with present attrition it can become a student group at the U.


Do you have 20 years of history in this topic or stories direct from more than ten associations that have even more history?.

I prefer not to discuss the negatives, except to show history in counter-response to your claim.   We should be concerned with TCLUG
and not hampered by any special connection to U of MN or other that may or could limit that.   Get clear on what the priority really
is.


Chuck




From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Fri Oct 10 15:32:38 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:32:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3894.1223668281.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3894.1223668281.2174.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <49155.136.229.5.52.1223670758.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 14:22:34 -0500
> From: Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu>

> Some leadership for this group would be good - at least we would have
> someone actively trying to set up meetings (and look for speakers) or
> installfests instead of what we have now.

What we have now is some people, at some times, set up meetings and
installfests. That's pretty good.

If you want more activity, just make it happen. Installfests basically
require a room and power. Internet is nice but not strictly necessary. A
network could be useful. Very nice is sponsored food.

Right now, in this group, you can take on as much leadership as you want
to, and let it go just as easily.

I also belong to a local 501(c)(3) non-profit educational organization. It
has to have volunteer officers, track their money with quarterly reports
to the IRS, etc, etc, etc. It takes tons of work, and some people do their
stint and disappear for years at a time from burnout. We also have events
with 100 to 1200 people attending, anywhere from 2 to 6 times a year. That
number of that size of events requires work, and it appears that most of
us spend our energies in other ways. I do.

I am also very glad that some of us step up and take things a little
farther, make things more interesting and valuable here. Thanks, guys.
(Folks?)

Chris

(Who has almost riled himself up enough to start organizing micro install
fests.)




From trnja001 at umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 15:38:39 2008
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 15:38:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEMKNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEMKNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <48EFBD4F.1000408@umn.edu>

Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> No: that's historical FACT for over 20 years I know of personally (and more told by designated historians of the associations).  The
> 20 or so professional associations (technical ones) with local membership of about 20,000 comprised of those who have graduated
> already from various universities CHOOSE NOT TO MEET THERE or be affiliated.  Parking is a big reason, but the U itself has been
> hostile to properly constituted national organizations that are not under control of the U, except for student groups which are
> under U control.  I tried to improve things for 5 years as VP of an umbrella group for these associations, and had mission, had the
> mailing lists, and had alumni help, so my info is quite valid.  Connections and help were of no use.  I had a professional research
> fund-providing interface also.  The U taught me/us that a connection with or to them is "not productive to pursue" and can be bad
> sometimes.  You may contact the professional associations yourself (perhaps  you qualify for membership in some or are a member) and
> ask them why they ceased meeting there long ago.  Once you've contacted five or more associations, you can begin to see this picture
> and know what the history really is.
>
>   
Cool story.
>> Some leadership for this group would be good - at least we would have
>> someone actively trying to set up meetings (and look for speakers) or
>> installfests instead of what we have now.
>>     
>
> The group has discussed leadership before and chose to avoid any.  I favored and proposed some as a 501c3 non-profit, but not at or
> by the U.  Maybe now it with present attrition it can become a student group at the U.
>
>
> Do you have 20 years of history in this topic or stories direct from more than ten associations that have even more history?.
>
> I prefer not to discuss the negatives, except to show history in counter-response to your claim.   We should be concerned with TCLUG
> and not hampered by any special connection to U of MN or other that may or could limit that.   Get clear on what the priority really
> is.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>   
I remember your idea of setting up a non-profit and also the reaction of 
it being too pointless to peruse. Why do some seem to think that 
"leadership" means bureaucracy and all that associated 'crap'? All it 
means is someone (or a group) taking charge to get something done. It's 
been happening before - how did the previous installfests and meetings 
get organized? Someone took charge, or leadership if you will, to get it 
done.

And how does having the meeting in a lecture hall at building at the U 
make any special connection with it?



From markdeb.browne at comcast.net  Fri Oct 10 17:06:24 2008
From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (markdeb.browne at comcast.net)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 22:06:24 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
Message-ID: <101020082206.2666.48EFD1E00001B50300000A6A22058864420A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>


From: Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu>
> >   
> I remember your idea of setting up a non-profit and also the reaction of 
> it being too pointless to peruse. Why do some seem to think that 
> "leadership" means bureaucracy and all that associated 'crap'? All it 
> means is someone (or a group) taking charge to get something done. It's 
> been happening before - how did the previous installfests and meetings 
> get organized? Someone took charge, or leadership if you will, to get it 
> done.

There it is again - Someone.

What is implied is "Someone else."
If you want to do it - do it!

Leadership here is a participatory sport. 

If you feel uncomfortable with the details of How-to, there are bunches of people here that know how, just ask.
If you are an RTFM kind of person, there are numerous How-to guides for meetings and installfests on the web.

I will add that after you have done this a few times you may have a little different perspective on the "bureaucracy and all that associated 'crap'" thing but then again, you may have a flair for this sort of thing so YMMV.

> And how does having the meeting in a lecture hall at building at the U 
> make any special connection with it?
I can take a stab at this one:
You can't just walk in a room and have a meeting.
"Somebody" has to authorize the use of the room.
How hard or easy this is depends on how much authority and how risk-adverse that "somebody" is.
If you have been on the "not so easy" end of one of these affairs it may leave a bad taste.

Mark Browne



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 18:09:34 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:09:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <101020081839.13311.48EFA1670008F11B000033FF22092246270A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>
References: <101020081839.13311.48EFA1670008F11B000033FF22092246270A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101804400.29914@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, markdeb.browne at comcast.net wrote:

> Mike,
>
> I'm curious - what exactly do you think "leadership" might look like?

I just mean that there would be a formal organizational structure of some 
kind that would involve three or four positions, and we would know who 
fills them at any point in time.  They might be...

email list manager
webmaster
President -- does everything else

It might then be up to the President to organize an "Installfest 
Committee" and a "Presentations Committee."

To arrange all this you would have bylaws.


> Let me turn this back to you - do YOU want to lead the group in some 
> direction?

Not right now.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Fri Oct 10 18:24:15 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 18:24:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <101020082206.2666.48EFD1E00001B50300000A6A22058864420A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>
References: <101020082206.2666.48EFD1E00001B50300000A6A22058864420A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101815150.29914@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, markdeb.browne at comcast.net wrote:

> From: Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu>
>
>> I remember your idea of setting up a non-profit and also the reaction 
>> of it being too pointless to peruse. Why do some seem to think that 
>> "leadership" means bureaucracy and all that associated 'crap'? All it 
>> means is someone (or a group) taking charge to get something done. It's 
>> been happening before - how did the previous installfests and meetings 
>> get organized? Someone took charge, or leadership if you will, to get 
>> it done.
>
> There it is again - Someone.
>
> What is implied is "Someone else."
> If you want to do it - do it!


It is a good thing that anyone is allowed to take action.  The problem 
with that scheme in a leaderless group is that it is even more likely that 
no one will do anything.  People, especially new enthusiastic members will 
tend to sit back and wait.  If there were a leader (say, "President"), 
that individual could send a message to the group requesting proposals for 
presentations or installfests, or whatever.

The leaderless approach sounds good, but in the real world, in just about 
every culture in every time and place, we have had leaders.  It just works 
well with human nature.  With a democratic system, we can eliminate 
coercive or ineffectual leaders.  In the worst case scenario, we end up 
dumping a bad leader and are back to what we have now.

Mike


From tim.link at mchsi.com  Fri Oct 10 19:18:32 2008
From: tim.link at mchsi.com (Tim Link)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 19:18:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <9607A82C2CAD4637A5D9C65896195F6B@link.com>

[X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cititclug-list at mn-linux.orges GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG



From rhubarbpie at poetworld.net  Sat Oct 11 09:31:40 2008
From: rhubarbpie at poetworld.net (rhubarbpie at poetworld.net)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 09:31:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Hibernate execution inconsistent
Message-ID: <48F0B8CC.5040204@poetworld.net>


Hibernate takes my box down stone-cold-dead only 1/3 of the time.  
Usually the I/O light doesn't go out and I have to hold the power 
switch.  Hibernate always writes the image, blanks the screen, and 
restore properly.  However, I have to do the manual thing often.

This isn't a big problem, but if it's fixable ...  I'm running compiled 
Linux From Scratch 6.3 with the 2.6.26 kernel and the TuxOnIce 1.99 
script.  I commonly have an OpenOffice spreadsheet, Thunderbird, and 
Opera up when hibernating (no internet connection).

Again, it's not a huge problem but I don't understand the 
inconsistency.  Do others have the problem?


From dniesen at gmail.com  Sat Oct 11 10:33:41 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 10:33:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Server NICs versus Desktop NICs
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70810110833s7e588ffbxd3aeee81116ab5f1@mail.gmail.com>

I'm upgrading a network to gigabit and most of our servers already
have gigabit NICs but a few will need an upgrade.  In looking at cards
I see some billing themselves as "desktop" and "server" cards.  The
only big differences I see are price and remote management features.
If I don't require the extra remote management features is there
anything else I'm missing if I go with the desktop card?

-- 
Donovan Niesen


From marc at e-skinner.net  Sat Oct 11 13:59:25 2008
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 13:59:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Server NICs versus Desktop NICs
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70810110833s7e588ffbxd3aeee81116ab5f1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <47f4d5e70810110833s7e588ffbxd3aeee81116ab5f1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F0F78D.4010506@e-skinner.net>

most of the time server cards will offer tcp function offloading - for 
reduced CPU load.  that doesn't necessarily make the server card faster 
than the desktop card, it just makes the CPU work less under heavy load 
- since the desktop card has to rely on the CPU to do most of the TCP 
stuff, like checksumming, etc.  also, if PXE boot is important, make 
sure the card has that, i don't recall if that is a server only feature 
or if it is typically on both types of cards.

Donovan wrote:
> I'm upgrading a network to gigabit and most of our servers already
> have gigabit NICs but a few will need an upgrade.  In looking at cards
> I see some billing themselves as "desktop" and "server" cards.  The
> only big differences I see are price and remote management features.
> If I don't require the extra remote management features is there
> anything else I'm missing if I go with the desktop card?
>
>   



From marc at e-skinner.net  Sat Oct 11 14:08:34 2008
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:08:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <9607A82C2CAD4637A5D9C65896195F6B@link.com>
References: <9607A82C2CAD4637A5D9C65896195F6B@link.com>
Message-ID: <48F0F9B2.2050100@e-skinner.net>

me too!
> [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
> [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
> [ ] Twin Cititclug-list at mn-linux.orges GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From tclug at lizakowski.com  Sat Oct 11 14:55:47 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 14:55:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] it's a free-for-all
In-Reply-To: <gco0mu$vab$1@ger.gmane.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091855460.12066@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<gco0mu$vab$1@ger.gmane.org>
Message-ID: <200810111455.47470.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> The last offical administrator of the web site was Clay F.  I'm not
> sure who as the ability to change the site now.

Clay passed the credentials to me.  I believe we talked about reworking the 
website last year.

Jeremy

On Friday 10 October 2008 11:43:10 am Bob Tanner wrote:
> On 2008-10-09 19:09:02 -0500, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> said:
> > We still don't know if anyone has permissions to change the web pages on
> > tclug.org.  The outcome of any vote would be irrelevant if we don't know
> > who can change the web pages.
>
> Community member jima owns the tclug.org domain, jwhois for details.
>
> The site runs on my hardware, uses my bandwidth, sits in my data
> center. I have root on the box so I can do "what I want". I paid a
> professional graphic designer to work up the current logo.
>
> The last offical administrator of the web site was Clay F.  I'm not
> sure who as the ability to change the site now.
>
> As I stated in my "One or the other? Why not both?" thread, why not
> setup everything in parallel to current site and just re-brand it to
> tcglug?




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Sat Oct 11 15:02:05 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:02:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101804400.29914@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <101020081839.13311.48EFA1670008F11B000033FF22092246270A0299019D0DD20D0A0B059D0E03@comcast.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810101804400.29914@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810111502.05349.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> > Let me turn this back to you - do YOU want to lead the group in some
> > direction?
> Not right now.


Bylaws, comittees, who's going to do that work?  That involves a lot of 
bureacracy.

Jeremy

On Friday 10 October 2008 6:09:34 pm Mike Miller wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Oct 2008, markdeb.browne at comcast.net wrote:
> > Mike,
> >
> > I'm curious - what exactly do you think "leadership" might look like?
>
> I just mean that there would be a formal organizational structure of some
> kind that would involve three or four positions, and we would know who
> fills them at any point in time.  They might be...
>
> email list manager
> webmaster
> President -- does everything else
>
> It might then be up to the President to organize an "Installfest
> Committee" and a "Presentations Committee."
>
> To arrange all this you would have bylaws.
>
> > Let me turn this back to you - do YOU want to lead the group in some
> > direction?
>
> Not right now.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Sat Oct 11 15:08:31 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 15:08:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEMKNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEMKNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <200810111508.31569.tclug@lizakowski.com>

>for over 20 years I know of personally (and more told by 
>designated historians of the associations) ...
>with local membership of about 20,000
> I tried to improve things for 5 years as
> VP of an umbrella group 

So, given that you managed 20,000 members as part of an umbrella meta 
organization, how would you like to see TCLUG ran?

Do you wish us to resemble that structure and scale?

On Friday 10 October 2008 3:21:51 pm Chuck Cole wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Elvedin Trnjanin [mailto:trnja001 at umn.edu]
> > Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 2:23 PM
> >
> > Chuck Cole wrote:
> > >> Maybe it will create even more opportunity than we have now.  This
> > >> group is not very active and it has no leadership.
> > >
> > > Historically, this group TRULY WANTS NO LEADERSHIP or other activity
> > > than the list and occasional impromptu gatherings
> >
> > for beer or
> >
> > > chow.
> > >
> > > Imposing leadership (and/or stronger ties to UMN) is likely to kill
> > > more of it...  or just kill the off-campus interest.
> >
> > What is your problem with the U? I can't remember any message of yours
> > that doesn't mention 'any association to the U is going to kill off
> > interest in TCLUG' or worse. Historically, you're wrong.
>
> No: that's historical FACT for over 20 years I know of personally (and more
> told by designated historians of the associations).  The 20 or so
> professional associations (technical ones) with local membership of about
> 20,000 comprised of those who have graduated already from various
> universities CHOOSE NOT TO MEET THERE or be affiliated.  Parking is a big
> reason, but the U itself has been hostile to properly constituted national
> organizations that are not under control of the U, except for student
> groups which are under U control.  I tried to improve things for 5 years as
> VP of an umbrella group for these associations, and had mission, had the
> mailing lists, and had alumni help, so my info is quite valid.  Connections
> and help were of no use.  I had a professional research fund-providing
> interface also.  The U taught me/us that a connection with or to them is
> "not productive to pursue" and can be bad sometimes.  You may contact the
> professional associations yourself (perhaps  you qualify for membership in
> some or are a member) and ask them why they ceased meeting there long ago. 
> Once you've contacted five or more associations, you can begin to see this
> picture and know what the history really is.
>
> > Some leadership for this group would be good - at least we would have
> > someone actively trying to set up meetings (and look for speakers) or
> > installfests instead of what we have now.
>
> The group has discussed leadership before and chose to avoid any.  I
> favored and proposed some as a 501c3 non-profit, but not at or by the U. 
> Maybe now it with present attrition it can become a student group at the U.
>
>
> Do you have 20 years of history in this topic or stories direct from more
> than ten associations that have even more history?.
>
> I prefer not to discuss the negatives, except to show history in
> counter-response to your claim.   We should be concerned with TCLUG and not
> hampered by any special connection to U of MN or other that may or could
> limit that.   Get clear on what the priority really is.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Sat Oct 11 17:07:58 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 17:07:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Debate Statistics
In-Reply-To: <200810111508.31569.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <DIEPJAHDNINGELBLJLJCOEMKNEAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<200810111508.31569.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <200810111707.58882.tclug@lizakowski.com>


I took the various Stallman-related discussion threads, saved them as an MBOX 
file, then ran some stats.  I parsed the mbox file with shell utilities 
(grep, awk, sort, etc) and probably dropped a few data points, so the counts 
are approximate.

Overall Voting so far (according to the google docs spreadsheet)
	33 	TCLUG
	10 	TCGLUG
	3 	GNU (TCLUG)
	5	Misc

Mailing List Postings by political affiliation
	142 The number of postings by people who voted TCLUG
	137 The number of postings by people who voted Something other than TCLUG
		Breakdown:
		113	TCGLUG
		11	GNU (TCLUG)
		13	Misc

It appears that the TCGLUG and TCLUG voters had a fairly even conversation, in 
terms of quantity.

I counted 84 unique posters for the discussion
38 people wrote just one message, likely just to vote
	That's about 45% of the posters

Message count Histogram (approx - might be off a bit)
	Note: this includes people who didn't vote
63	 Mike Miller 
26	 Florin Iucha 
25	 "p.daniels" 
22	 Jeremy 
19	 "Chuck Cole" 
18	 Sunny 
15	 Jima 
14	 Eric F Crist 
10	 "Rob Bayerl" 
10	 "Isaac Atilano" 
8	 "Dan Armbrust" 
8	 "Justin Krejci" 
8	 Adam Monsen 
8	 Max Shinn 
7	 Robert Wilkinson 
7	 Josh Paetzel 
7	 "Chris Schumann" 
7	 David Alanis 
7	 "Jordan Peacock" 
6	 "Larry R. Pint" 
5	 Steve Cayford 
5	 "Troy.A Johnson" 
5	 Munir Nassar 
5	 "Smith, Craig A" 
4	 Elvedin Trnjanin 
4	 markdeb.browne at comcast.net
4	 Yaron 
4	 "Richard M. Stallman" 
4	 Dan Rue 
3	 "John Trammell" 
3	 tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
3	 "Andy Schmid" 
3	 "J Cruit" 
3	 Alan Palazzolo 
3	 Bob Tanner 
3	 "Brian D. Ropers-Huilman" 
3	 "Robert Brown" 
3	 "Nick Scholtes" 
2	 "Jim Crumley" 
2	 auditodd at comcast.net
2	 Dean.Benjamin at mm.com
2	 John Gateley 
2	 Chris Barber 
2	 Dave Carlson 
2	 Robert Sinland 
1	 Ian Young 
1	 Dean 
1	 "Tony Yarusso" 
1	 Tom Poe 
1	 bradyh at bitstream.net
1	 Asim Baig 
1	 Stephen Hilton 
1	 thecubic at thecubic.net
1	 The Wandering Dru 
1	 Scott Raun 
1	 Robert De Mars 
1	 Harry Penner 
1	 Doug Reed 
1	 Chad Walstrom 
1	 Carl Zeilon 
1	 Donovan 
1	 "Tim Link" 
1	 "steve ulrich" 
1	 Bret Baptist 
1	 "Tom Penney" 
1	 swede 
1	 "Doug Olson" 
1	 "Dave Sherman" 
1	 "Paul Cutler" 
1	 "Erik Anderson" 
1	 "Mark Browne" 
1	 "Shawn Fertch" 
1	 "Noah Markon" 
1	 "Benjamin Gramlich" 
1	 "Andrew S. Zbikowski" 
1	 John Holmstadt 
1	 Paul A Corbero 
1	 Joshua Radke 
1	 Jonathan Osborne 
1	 Nate Straz 
1	 "Kurt Lieber" 
1	 "Keith Bachman" 
1	 Jeffrey Lehman 
1	 Marc Skinner 


From max at bernsteinforpresident.com  Sat Oct 11 18:02:40 2008
From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:02:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
References: <20081008181235.GG92409@therub.org>
	<48ED0AC1.2020706@hiltonbsd.com>
	<59101.151.151.73.170.1223563045.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com>
Message-ID: <200810111802.41610.max@bernsteinforpresident.com>

[No!] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[Great] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[Great] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG


From dbradley at shps.com  Fri Oct 10 07:09:55 2008
From: dbradley at shps.com (DaveBradley)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 07:09:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <48EF4613.4040303@shps.com>

[ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
[ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
[X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

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From canito at dalan.us  Fri Oct 10 12:41:35 2008
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2008 12:41:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question
In-Reply-To: <200810101003.37355.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810091034010.25693@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<7F9C3CA9-2B53-4B9F-A715-D7C73186C205@secure-computing.net>
	<20081009130437.mkjqn2ee7ks88kcg@mail.dalan.us>
	<200810101003.37355.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <20081010124135.q762waoqkkc80sok@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Jeremy <tclug at lizakowski.com>:

>> Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate
>> the efforts.
>
> A new group is a bad idea.  This is a tempest in a teacup, and it will pass.
>
> Functionally speaking, splitting the group will not accomplish anything,
> except to reduce the usefulness of the mailing list, and make it that much
> harder to have meetings.
>
>
> On Thursday 09 October 2008 1:04:37 pm David Alanis wrote:
>> Good Day,
>>
>> I'd like to thank those who have asserted positive attitude towards
>> the name change. In conversation with a few list members, they have
>> quietly expressed outrage about the few people who keep insinuating
>> people who want to see change was only brought about because of who
>> RMS is. I personally, did not find his e-mail insulting nor do I
>> admire the guy personally. I do however, admire the work and the
>> inspiration his generation fought for and the foundation leading to
>> what we have available today "free software".
>>
>> Two of these people (including myself) thought about leaving the list.
>> Nothing too personal, just the fact there is few people spoiling it
>> for the rest of us.
>> I will openly say, that I admire the work and principle Mike Miller
>> (including Florin Lucha, Jima and many others!) has introduced with
>> the name change thread. And think he can be of great influence and
>> education to people like me who want change, who are tired of not
>> having structure, and who can actually lead the list with an unbiased
>> mind.
>>
>> Again, my vote for change is NOT and never was because RMS called for
>> it and I think I speak for others. But primarily because it would be
>> natural. I vote for a "NEW" group where open-mindedness is welcome,
>> structure with leadership, and participation without facing criticism
>> or reprimand.
>>
>> Mike, please consider a new group. I am sure newcomers will appreciate
>> the efforts.
>>
>> David
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>

Thanks Jeremy. I am no longer subscribed to this list. I do appreciate  
your feedback.

David

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.



From cncole at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 11 19:50:54 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:50:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question  (OT)
In-Reply-To: <200810111508.31569.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGAEDFCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeremy [mailto:tclug at lizakowski.com]
> Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 3:09 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Question
>
>
> >for over 20 years I know of personally (and more told by
> >designated historians of the associations) ...
> >with local membership of about 20,000
> > I tried to improve things for 5 years as
> > VP of an umbrella group
>
> So, given that you managed 20,000 members as part of an umbrella meta
> organization, how would you like to see TCLUG ran?

"Ran" differently.  Successfully.  TCLUG will probably muddle along as is for a long time.  Didn't say I/we "managed" them.  You're
making control assumptions or seeking them.  Some of us may make a proposal and start optional alternative someday, but that that
would be a form that learns from history, and tries not to repeat it or copy "this" TCLUG (synergism would be nice).

> Do you wish us to resemble that structure and scale?

"Us?"  Things might be more forked up.  Not sure who's forking what  :-)     You're making assumptions about "structure",
containment, and control that may not be true or necessary or desirable.  Large scale only makes sense as an evolutionary process
if/when successful enough to grow, motivate, and sustain up to whatever level is "natural".

Let's drop this "org philosophy" and idle speculation and get back to Linux topics.


Chuck





From troythetechguy at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 09:01:43 2008
From: troythetechguy at gmail.com (Troy)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:01:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810062009v31a25701y9fbf28b0bafddac7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
	<Pine.GSO.4.60.0810062150450.1714@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<a2a149b80810062009v31a25701y9fbf28b0bafddac7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <34de7f3d0810120701h63b9a297i434a49f176923b77@mail.gmail.com>

I picked up the book, "A Practical Guide to Linux: commands, editors, and
shell programming" by Mark Sobell,  a few years back when I was a just
getting started with Linux.  The book has a lot of detailed information, but
is presented with the beginner in mind.

Good luck,

Troy

On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:09 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com> wrote:

> True. I went to Barnes and Noble to peruse and get a better idea of what I
> need. What I want is something that walks you through the CLI. Most of the
> books I found were the "bibles" that were $50 and told you basics like how
> to play music in KDE. I don't need that. I want to get into the nuts and
> bolts. But a "nuts and bolts" guide aimed more at a noob.
>
> Another example would be how to get in a tweak the performance of the
> kernel, desktops, and turn off all un-needed processes.
>
> Thanks,
> Nick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 9:54 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 6 Oct 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote:
>>
>> > I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for Linux.
>> > Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful tweaks to
>> > optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I figure the
>> > best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in there and take
>> > it apart and play around. But I need something that walks me through it.
>>
>>
>> Not sure, but there are a few different things to get into configuring.
>> One would be your desktop experience -- depends on what you are using:
>> Gnome, KDE, etc.  Of course choosing a desktop and window manager is
>> another aspect of configuration.
>>
>> Another area is the shell.  Bash is the usual default.  There are a bunch
>> of files that configure the shell.  You can create aliases and stuff like
>> that.
>>
>> After that many programs have their "recipe" files or config files and you
>> will want to do something with those, e.g., ~/.emacs
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sun Oct 12 09:49:49 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 09:49:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Nick Scholtes wrote:

> I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for  
> Linux. Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful  
> tweaks to optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I  
> figure the best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in  
> there and take it apart and play around. But I need something that  
> walks me through it.


I'm not sure what you're looking to play with/take apart.  What I  
found useful in learning command line tools it to actually have some  
specific goal in mind, i.e. host a website, etc.  Give yourself  
something specific you want to accomplish, and set out to do it.  From  
there, google, IRC, and mailing lists can be your friend.  I've found  
I learn more wading through man pages and assistance than I do from  
books.

That being said, I understand some still like that dead-tree reference  
laying around, so I'd suggest going to your local book store, and  
browsing through a few of the books on their shelves.  See what you  
can glean from there, and pick the one that seems most helpful.  If  
you find a good one, let us know.

---
Eric Crist






From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sun Oct 12 10:32:34 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:32:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com>
	<B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810121000400.28406@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Eric F Crist wrote:

> I'm not sure what you're looking to play with/take apart.  What I found 
> useful in learning command line tools it to actually have some specific 
> goal in mind, i.e. host a website, etc.  Give yourself something 
> specific you want to accomplish, and set out to do it.  From there, 
> google, IRC, and mailing lists can be your friend.  I've found I learn 
> more wading through man pages and assistance than I do from books.

I especially agree about google.  It helps a lot to practice using google 
to find things.  The man pages are great for certain purposes but when 
they fail me I go straight to google.  Unfortunately, some things are 
really hard to search for because so many of the pages that google finds 
are irrelevant and it is hard to find a good way to refine the search. 
When that happens, I find TCLUG or similar list can help a lot.


> That being said, I understand some still like that dead-tree reference 
> laying around, so I'd suggest going to your local book store, and 
> browsing through a few of the books on their shelves.  See what you can 
> glean from there, and pick the one that seems most helpful.  If you find 
> a good one, let us know.

I think it is good to have a book to read to give you ideas.  I also find 
that I don't use books for reference as much as I used to.  Google can 
come through for me much quicker most of the time.

For people just starting out, a good book is invaluable.  I remember going 
through a very small book (I think it was called "UNIX in a Nutshell," but 
the newer editions are very big, so maybe that wasn't it) many years ago 
and that got me a good start on the command line (the command line was all 
we had back then and there was no such thing as Linux!).  It looks like 
"Linux in a Nutshell" is 816 pages long.  That's a completely different 
book than the one I read.  I had a really small book.  Maybe "Linux Pocket 
Guide" is closer to what I read so long ago, but I think my book was still 
smaller than that.  Another book I liked was "UNIX Power Tools" (beware 
that "Linux Power Tools" seems to be a comletely unrelated book and I 
don't know if it is good).

Mike


From markdeb.browne at comcast.net  Sun Oct 12 10:42:41 2008
From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (Mark Browne)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:42:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810121000400.28406@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com><B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810121000400.28406@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <7FF40388896E45DB9DA3ADACB3BA73D6@AMD64>

 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org 
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 10:33 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
> 
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Eric F Crist wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure what you're looking to play with/take apart.  What I 
> > found useful in learning command line tools it to actually 
> have some 
> > specific goal in mind, i.e. host a website, etc.  Give yourself 
> > something specific you want to accomplish, and set out to 
> do it.  From 
> > there, google, IRC, and mailing lists can be your friend.  
> I've found 
> > I learn more wading through man pages and assistance than I 
> do from books.
> 
> I especially agree about google.  It helps a lot to practice 
> using google to find things.  The man pages are great for 
> certain purposes but when they fail me I go straight to 
> google.  Unfortunately, some things are really hard to search 
> for because so many of the pages that google finds are 
> irrelevant and it is hard to find a good way to refine the search. 
> When that happens, I find TCLUG or similar list can help a lot.
> 
Perhaps you should look at google a little more closely:
http://www.google.com/options/specialsearches.html

Mark Browne



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sun Oct 12 10:52:38 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:52:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <7FF40388896E45DB9DA3ADACB3BA73D6@AMD64>
References: <a2a149b80810060951k762d6a76qe32857d2fef93e78@mail.gmail.com><B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810121000400.28406@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<7FF40388896E45DB9DA3ADACB3BA73D6@AMD64>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810121047230.28406@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008, Mark Browne wrote:

> Perhaps you should look at google a little more closely:
> http://www.google.com/options/specialsearches.html

That is good.  It still doesn't always get me what I want, but maybe what 
I want doesn't exist.  Following up on my message about ansi color the 
other day, I'm interested in putting the following together:

cat -A
less
ansi color  (or just "color" if that is too restrictive)

You can see why the first two cause problems:  "cat -A" can match with 
stuff like this:

...when you cat a file...

And the word "less" isn't just a command.

Mike


From sos at zjod.net  Sun Oct 12 11:25:29 2008
From: sos at zjod.net (Steve Siegfried)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 11:25:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <200810121625.m9CGPTt9006248@zjod.net>


I've avoided becoming embroiled in this.  But if I gotta
vote about something this silly, I'll vote.

 [X] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
 [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
 [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG

-S


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 14:27:55 2008
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:27:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
Message-ID: <48F24FBB.8070707@gmail.com>

With all the talk about beer, I thought of a more appropriate name (the
acronym of which has a very nice ring to it). It also makes no comment
on "Linux" vs. "GNU/Linux". And I don't even drink.

 [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
 [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
 [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
 [X] Twin Cities Lovers of Beer and Open Source Software -> TCLBOSS


From cncole at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 12 15:24:11 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:24:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEDGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Eric F Crist
> Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 9:50 AM
> To: Nick Scholtes
> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
> 
> 
> On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Nick Scholtes wrote:
> 
> > I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for  
> > Linux. Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful  
> > tweaks to optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I  
> > figure the best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in  
> > there and take it apart and play around. But I need something that  
> > walks me through it.
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you're looking to play with/take apart.  What I  
> found useful in learning command line tools it to actually have some  
> specific goal in mind, i.e. host a website, etc.  Give yourself  
> something specific you want to accomplish, and set out to do it. 

Best advice of all!

>  From  
> there, google, IRC, and mailing lists can be your friend.  I've found  
> I learn more wading through man pages and assistance than I do from  
> books.

Often true.  Writing styles (or purpose) can be a bad mismatch - or a match.

> That being said, I understand some still like that dead-tree reference  
> laying around, so I'd suggest going to your local book store, and  
> browsing through a few of the books on their shelves.  See what you  
> can glean from there, and pick the one that seems most helpful.  If  
> you find a good one, let us know.


Some online refs are good and save trees.  Many refs exist online.  Here are some refs:

One Page Linux Manual (cheat sheet)  
     www.digilife.be/quickreferences/QRC/The%20One%20Page%20Linux%20Manual.pdf

 Free Linux eBooks  http://freebooks.homelinux.org/

Introduction to Linux   http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/index.html
    A Hands on Guide  by Machtelt Garrels

Linux Documentation Project Guides   http://www.tldp.org/guides.html


That is a start...



Chuck 


From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 15:42:38 2008
From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (benjamin gramlich)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 15:42:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <48F24FBB.8070707@gmail.com>
References: <48F24FBB.8070707@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1223844158.23071.0.camel@PlanetExpress>

On Sun, 2008-10-12 at 14:27 -0500, Andrew Berg wrote:
> With all the talk about beer, I thought of a more appropriate name (the
> acronym of which has a very nice ring to it). It also makes no comment
> on "Linux" vs. "GNU/Linux". And I don't even drink.
> 
>  [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
>  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
>  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG
>  [X] Twin Cities Lovers of Beer and Open Source Software -> TCLBOSS
> 
Hell Yes!



From airchia at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 19:29:33 2008
From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 19:29:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEDGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEDGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for all this useful info! I did go to my local Barnes and
Noble and took a good look at what they had, and that helped me figure out
what I wanted (something more CLI-oriented). I'll also take a look a the
online references you all gave.

>Perhaps you should look at google a little more closely:
>http://www.google.com/options/specialsearches.html<http://www.google.com/options/specialsearches.html>

Very good resource. It's already improved some of my Linux-based results.

> I understand some still like that dead-tree reference laying around

I do like to have a good reference/guide book around, as my Linux box
currently isn't hooked up to the Net.
*
Have goals - *
Yes, I agree with having a goal in mind first. I was thinking about this.
What about re-building the kernel? Or maybe de-compiling (you can do that,
yes?) and re-compiling several programs would give me good practice.
Thoughts?

Thanks,
Nick



On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:
> tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Eric F Crist
> > Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 9:50 AM
> > To: Nick Scholtes
> > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
> >
> >
> > On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Nick Scholtes wrote:
> >
> > > I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for
> > > Linux. Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful
> > > tweaks to optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I
> > > figure the best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in
> > > there and take it apart and play around. But I need something that
> > > walks me through it.
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure what you're looking to play with/take apart.  What I
> > found useful in learning command line tools it to actually have some
> > specific goal in mind, i.e. host a website, etc.  Give yourself
> > something specific you want to accomplish, and set out to do it.
>
> Best advice of all!
>
> >  From
> > there, google, IRC, and mailing lists can be your friend.  I've found
> > I learn more wading through man pages and assistance than I do from
> > books.
>
> Often true.  Writing styles (or purpose) can be a bad mismatch - or a
> match.
>
> > That being said, I understand some still like that dead-tree reference
> > laying around, so I'd suggest going to your local book store, and
> > browsing through a few of the books on their shelves.  See what you
> > can glean from there, and pick the one that seems most helpful.  If
> > you find a good one, let us know.
>
>
> Some online refs are good and save trees.  Many refs exist online.  Here
> are some refs:
>
> One Page Linux Manual (cheat sheet)
>
> www.digilife.be/quickreferences/QRC/The%20One%20Page%20Linux%20Manual.pdf
>
>  Free Linux eBooks  http://freebooks.homelinux.org/
>
> Introduction to Linux
> http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/index.html
>    A Hands on Guide  by Machtelt Garrels
>
> Linux Documentation Project Guides   http://www.tldp.org/guides.html
>
>
> That is a start...
>
>
>
> Chuck
>



-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom
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From sloncho at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 20:27:25 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:27:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEDGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810121827x5453a11bwaa4fe76b488fc1e7@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Nick Scholtes <airchia at gmail.com> wrote:
> Have goals -
> Yes, I agree with having a goal in mind first. I was thinking about this.
> What about re-building the kernel? Or maybe de-compiling (you can do that,
> yes?) and re-compiling several programs would give me good practice.
> Thoughts?
>

I think someone already said this, but - go with gentoo. Their
documentation is exactly what you are after. They explain every step
of the instalation, building from source, etc - all in CLI. And a lot
of couces to make, so you can play with it as much as you want.

AFAIK, now they provide pre-build installation packages, but you
should be able to go with the "source" way.

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Sun Oct 12 20:44:23 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:44:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200810130144.m9D1iN918746@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: APC SmartUPS700

APC SmartUPS 700
Output Power Capacity:  450 Watts / 700 VA
Output Connections: (4) NEMA 5-15R

Full specs here: 
http://www.apc.com/ resource/include/ techspec_index.cfm ?base_sku=SU700NET

Unit is used but in good working order, battery still holds a charge.
Serial cable included.  
$75 CASH ONLY, Email to arrange pickup in SW Minneapolis.

Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sun Oct 12 21:29:54 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:29:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEDGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <18D143C9-05B1-4F84-B5DD-A4FE1C1931C3@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 12, 2008, at 7:29 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Thank you so much for all this useful info! I did go to my local  
> Barnes and Noble and took a good look at what they had, and that  
> helped me figure out what I wanted (something more CLI-oriented).  
> I'll also take a look a the online references you all gave.

---

> Have goals -
> Yes, I agree with having a goal in mind first. I was thinking about  
> this. What about re-building the kernel? Or maybe de-compiling (you  
> can do that, yes?) and re-compiling several programs would give me  
> good practice.
> Thoughts?


Why would you compile or decompile the kernel?  Compiling the kernel  
isn't a goal - it's the means to a specific end - a static module for  
hardware, reducing the memory footprint for some specific hardware  
requirement.  The days of recompiling a kernel 'just because' are gone.

Why are you going to decompile software?  Something you're looking for?

By goals, I mean something such as a specific driver, or a piece of  
software that doesn't have a package for your OS of choice.  Or, learn  
how to configure your Xorg for dual monitors.  That sort of thing.

Hope this helps.

---
Eric Crist






From dan.smith225 at gmail.com  Sun Oct 12 21:49:15 2008
From: dan.smith225 at gmail.com (Dan Smith)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:49:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crashed NTFS drive.
Message-ID: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>

I have a NTFS related question... I bought a Seagate Xtreme FreeAgent 1tb
drive. My question/problem is.. I had partitioned the drive as one chunk and
started to move data to this parition as my WD mybook is failing.  I plugged
in the free agent yesterday and the drive would not attach to the system.
Though yes, I am running Vista for the moment, that isn't the problem.  I
think it was a bad drive in the free agent.  My question to the group is
there any free/opensource apps to view the drive and attempt to extract any
files from it?

Thanks,

  Dan
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From erick at allsystemsdown.com  Sun Oct 12 22:18:42 2008
From: erick at allsystemsdown.com (Erick)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:18:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] next question on computer start-up
In-Reply-To: <48EED983.7060700@fngi.net>
References: <48EED983.7060700@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <48F2BE12.408@allsystemsdown.com>

Tom Poe wrote:
> I installed a 40GB hard drive in dell dimension 4400, started it, and 
> went to setup.  I set the boot to use CD-ROM as first choice.  Placed 
> fc9 dvd in drive, and restarted.  It went to grub.  I took out the dvd, 
> and put in an AsteriskNow! cd, and restarted.  It went to grub prompt, 
> again.  Any help to get computer to start and use CD-ROM drive?
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>   
Is the CD-ROM drive a CD-ROM drive or a DVD-ROM drive? Make sure you
aren't putting a DVD into a CD-ROM.



From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Sun Oct 12 23:08:29 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2008 23:08:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crashed NTFS drive.
In-Reply-To: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87BBD6DD-7068-494B-9BD6-5968603FBB56@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 12, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Dan Smith wrote:

> I have a NTFS related question... I bought a Seagate Xtreme  
> FreeAgent 1tb drive. My question/problem is.. I had partitioned the  
> drive as one chunk and
> started to move data to this parition as my WD mybook is failing.  I  
> plugged in the free agent yesterday and the drive would not attach  
> to the system.
> Though yes, I am running Vista for the moment, that isn't the  
> problem.  I think it was a bad drive in the free agent.  My question  
> to the group is there any free/opensource apps to view the drive and  
> attempt to extract any files from it?

Many *nix distributions include tools to read NTFS partitions.   
Without ruffling any feathers, I know FreeBSD has read support, with  
limited write support, for NTFS.  Linux, IIRC, has full read and write  
support in the kernel.  Give that a shot.  Most LiveCDs should work.

HTH
---
Eric Crist






From tclug at lizakowski.com  Mon Oct 13 00:18:18 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 00:18:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Name Change Vote
In-Reply-To: <200810121625.m9CGPTt9006248@zjod.net>
References: <200810121625.m9CGPTt9006248@zjod.net>
Message-ID: <200810130018.18271.tclug@lizakowski.com>


  [ ] No change (Twin Cities Linux User Group) -> TCLUG
  [X] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCLUG
  [ ] Twin Cities GNU/Linux User Group -> TCGLUG



From admin at lctn.org  Mon Oct 13 04:55:39 2008
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:55:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crashed NTFS drive.
In-Reply-To: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F31B1B.8010603@lctn.org>

 >My question to the group is there any free/opensource apps to view the 
drive and attempt to >extract any files from it?


Knoppix will work for this.



From dniesen at gmail.com  Mon Oct 13 07:24:45 2008
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:24:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crashed NTFS drive.
In-Reply-To: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <47f4d5e70810130524o2a0d57ey63aebb7e46f6817a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Dan Smith <dan.smith225 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a NTFS related question... I bought a Seagate Xtreme FreeAgent 1tb
> drive. My question/problem is.. I had partitioned the drive as one chunk and
> started to move data to this parition as my WD mybook is failing.  I plugged
> in the free agent yesterday and the drive would not attach to the system.
> Though yes, I am running Vista for the moment, that isn't the problem.  I
> think it was a bad drive in the free agent.  My question to the group is
> there any free/opensource apps to view the drive and attempt to extract any
> files from it?
>
> Thanks,
>
>   Dan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>

I've seen the Enclosure hardware fail often on the FreeAgents.  If
you're not going to try to get it replaced by warranty I would say
crack it open, yank the drive out and try to mount it without the
enclosure.  I've had two do something similar to your's in under a
year.


-- 
Donovan Niesen


From jack at jacku.com  Mon Oct 13 07:26:32 2008
From: jack at jacku.com (Jack Ungerleider)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:26:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net>
	<JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEDGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <60642.76.17.242.58.1223900792.squirrel@mail.highspeedrails.com>


>> I understand some still like that dead-tree reference laying around
>
> I do like to have a good reference/guide book around, as my Linux box
> currently isn't hooked up to the Net.

I'll second the recommendation for the Mark Sobell book. When I was
teaching Linux classes I used a couple of earlier versions of his book.
(Technically different books with different titles.) He will get as deep

One online resource I didn't see mentioned (I may have missed it) that
might be useful is Rute User's Tutorial and Exposition at
http://rute.2038bug.com/index.html.gz

It is available for download in PDF or HTML

Good Luck!

-- 
Jack Ungerleider
jack at jacku.com
http://www.jacku.com


From marc at e-skinner.net  Mon Oct 13 07:40:30 2008
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:40:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crashed NTFS drive.
In-Reply-To: <47f4d5e70810130524o2a0d57ey63aebb7e46f6817a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
	<47f4d5e70810130524o2a0d57ey63aebb7e46f6817a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48F341BE.7040103@e-skinner.net>

i have had good luck with the ultimate boot disk as well - it has all 
sorts of disk utilities, recovery tools.


http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

good luck.


Donovan wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Dan Smith <dan.smith225 at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> I have a NTFS related question... I bought a Seagate Xtreme FreeAgent 1tb
>> drive. My question/problem is.. I had partitioned the drive as one chunk and
>> started to move data to this parition as my WD mybook is failing.  I plugged
>> in the free agent yesterday and the drive would not attach to the system.
>> Though yes, I am running Vista for the moment, that isn't the problem.  I
>> think it was a bad drive in the free agent.  My question to the group is
>> there any free/opensource apps to view the drive and attempt to extract any
>> files from it?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>   Dan
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>>     
>
> I've seen the Enclosure hardware fail often on the FreeAgents.  If
> you're not going to try to get it replaced by warranty I would say
> crack it open, yank the drive out and try to mount it without the
> enclosure.  I've had two do something similar to your's in under a
> year.
>
>
>   



From bbaptist at iexposure.com  Mon Oct 13 08:58:15 2008
From: bbaptist at iexposure.com (Bret Baptist)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:58:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Server NICs versus Desktop NICs
In-Reply-To: <48F0F78D.4010506@e-skinner.net>
References: <47f4d5e70810110833s7e588ffbxd3aeee81116ab5f1@mail.gmail.com>
	<48F0F78D.4010506@e-skinner.net>
Message-ID: <200810130858.15283.bbaptist@iexposure.com>

Another thing different is Jumbo Frame support on server NICs.  Often times 
the desktop variety only support 1500 MTU frames.


Bret.

On Saturday 11 October 2008 13:59:25 Marc Skinner wrote:
> most of the time server cards will offer tcp function offloading - for
> reduced CPU load.  that doesn't necessarily make the server card faster
> than the desktop card, it just makes the CPU work less under heavy load
> - since the desktop card has to rely on the CPU to do most of the TCP
> stuff, like checksumming, etc.  also, if PXE boot is important, make
> sure the card has that, i don't recall if that is a server only feature
> or if it is typically on both types of cards.
>
> Donovan wrote:
> > I'm upgrading a network to gigabit and most of our servers already
> > have gigabit NICs but a few will need an upgrade.  In looking at cards
> > I see some billing themselves as "desktop" and "server" cards.  The
> > only big differences I see are price and remote management features.
> > If I don't require the extra remote management features is there
> > anything else I'm missing if I go with the desktop card?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-- 
Bret Baptist
Senior Network Administrator
bbaptist at iexposure.com
Internet Exposure, Inc.
http://www.iexposure.com
(612)676-1946 x17

Providing Internet Services since 1995
Web Development ~ Search Engine Marketing ~ Web Analytics
Network Security ~ On Demand Tech Support ~ E-Mail Marketing


From john.meier at gmail.com  Mon Oct 13 09:42:12 2008
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 09:42:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Crashed NTFS drive.
In-Reply-To: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <156904000810121949j718f3d61o67faebe6e1e3f95d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65293fcc0810130742q3f5c58afpbe92b48265aa6d5a@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 9:49 PM, Dan Smith <dan.smith225 at gmail.com> wrote:

> .
>


>   My question to the group is there any free/opensource apps to view the
> drive and attempt to extract any files from it?
>
>

I've had great luck with http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Mon Oct 13 10:42:23 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:42:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Hibernate execution inconsistent
In-Reply-To: <48F0B8CC.5040204@poetworld.net>
References: <48F0B8CC.5040204@poetworld.net>
Message-ID: <020801c92d4a$49ccfb10$e317a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>

Having minimal experience with hibernation I cant speak with much authority
but I do know that including a description/models of your hardware involved
will commonly make it more likely someone will be able to actually give a
helpful response. These types of issues are usually tied to specific
hardware components from my experience (of reading on various mailing list
memberships).

I know there are usually some APM/ACPI knobs you can play with in your BIOS
or kernel settings that may have some relevance. Which knobs and how much to
turn them are questions most likely better answered by someone with more
experience and/or maybe trial and error on your part.

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of
rhubarbpie at poetworld.net
Sent: Saturday, October 11, 2008 9:32 AM
To: tclug-list
Subject: [tclug-list] Hibernate execution inconsistent


Hibernate takes my box down stone-cold-dead only 1/3 of the time.  
Usually the I/O light doesn't go out and I have to hold the power 
switch.  Hibernate always writes the image, blanks the screen, and 
restore properly.  However, I have to do the manual thing often.

This isn't a big problem, but if it's fixable ...  I'm running compiled 
Linux From Scratch 6.3 with the 2.6.26 kernel and the TuxOnIce 1.99 
script.  I commonly have an OpenOffice spreadsheet, Thunderbird, and 
Opera up when hibernating (no internet connection).

Again, it's not a huge problem but I don't understand the 
inconsistency.  Do others have the problem?

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Mon Oct 13 10:53:58 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 10:53:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
In-Reply-To: <a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <B9C967B7-AC4E-4DE7-8FA5-3130CC6A6240@secure-computing.net><JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGIEDGCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<a2a149b80810121729o4dc0cc6ay5227ba347bee1b6e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <021801c92d4b$e83033c0$e317a8c0@usicorp.usinternet.com>

One for for you: RUTE

 

This has tons of useful information to help you build a foundation of skills
and experience. Though it is primarily "GNU/Linux specific" the general info
you can obtain is applicable in other environments as well.

 

It goes into great detail and does a really good job teaching you how to
change your thinking to be more effective in general and goes over many of
the basic CLI tools, hardware, how directories/files are work, etc. It
touches on pretty much every subject and you can easily jump around as
needed to other chapters.

 

http://rute.2038bug.com/node4.html.gz

 

 

 

  _____  

From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Nick Scholtes
Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 7:30 PM
To: Chuck Cole
Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide

 

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for all this useful info! I did go to my local Barnes and
Noble and took a good look at what they had, and that helped me figure out
what I wanted (something more CLI-oriented). I'll also take a look a the
online references you all gave. 

>Perhaps you should look at google a little more closely:
 <http://www.google.com/options/specialsearches.html>
>http://www.google.com/options/specialsearches.html

Very good resource. It's already improved some of my Linux-based results.

> I understand some still like that dead-tree reference laying around

I do like to have a good reference/guide book around, as my Linux box
currently isn't hooked up to the Net. 

Have goals - 
Yes, I agree with having a goal in mind first. I was thinking about this.
What about re-building the kernel? Or maybe de-compiling (you can do that,
yes?) and re-compiling several programs would give me good practice.
Thoughts?

Thanks,
Nick




On Sun, Oct 12, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Eric F Crist
> Sent: Sunday, October 12, 2008 9:50 AM
> To: Nick Scholtes
> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Beginners Hacking Linux Guide
>
>

> On Oct 6, 2008, at 11:51 AM, Nick Scholtes wrote:
>
> > I'm looking for a website or book aimed at beginning hackers for
> > Linux. Something that walks you step by step through fun and useful
> > tweaks to optimize your system. I haven't had much luck thus far. I
> > figure the best way to learn Linux inside and out is to just get in
> > there and take it apart and play around. But I need something that
> > walks me through it.
>
>
> I'm not sure what you're looking to play with/take apart.  What I
> found useful in learning command line tools it to actually have some
> specific goal in mind, i.e. host a website, etc.  Give yourself
> something specific you want to accomplish, and set out to do it.

Best advice of all!


>  From
> there, google, IRC, and mailing lists can be your friend.  I've found
> I learn more wading through man pages and assistance than I do from
> books.

Often true.  Writing styles (or purpose) can be a bad mismatch - or a match.


> That being said, I understand some still like that dead-tree reference
> laying around, so I'd suggest going to your local book store, and
> browsing through a few of the books on their shelves.  See what you
> can glean from there, and pick the one that seems most helpful.  If
> you find a good one, let us know.



Some online refs are good and save trees.  Many refs exist online.  Here are
some refs:

One Page Linux Manual (cheat sheet)
 
www.digilife.be/quickreferences/QRC/The%20One%20Page%20Linux%20Manual.pdf

 Free Linux eBooks  http://freebooks.homelinux.org/

Introduction to Linux   http://www.tldp.org/LDP/intro-linux/html/index.html
   A Hands on Guide  by Machtelt Garrels

Linux Documentation Project Guides   http://www.tldp.org/guides.html


That is a start...



Chuck




-- 
Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom

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From tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com  Mon Oct 13 12:52:52 2008
From: tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com (Robert De Mars)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:52:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Web Crawler - News Collector
Message-ID: <48F38AF4.7010103@b-o-b.homelinux.com>

I was wondering if anyone knew of an open source project that can do the 
following.

I have an internal web server at work that employees use for various things.

I am looking for a piece of software (or several pieces if needed) that 
would crawl various industry related websites, and then save a local 
copy of the articles.  I would like the software to collect the selected 
content, and when it is done crawling create an index file where 
employees can see various industry news on one page.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Bob




From rhubarbpie at poetworld.net  Mon Oct 13 12:54:02 2008
From: rhubarbpie at poetworld.net (rhubarbpie at poetworld.net)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 12:54:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Hibernate execution inconsistent
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.0.99.0810110953410.5882@veeta>
References: <48F0B8CC.5040204@poetworld.net>
	<alpine.DEB.0.99.0810110953410.5882@veeta>
Message-ID: <48F38B3A.6040208@poetworld.net>


Thank you all for responding.  My main interest was whether others have 
the problem.  A "yes" answer gives me reassurance it isn't unique to me.

I'm invoking "hibernate" not "suspend" to totally power down.  My box is 
a Sony Vaio VGN-N220E.  lspci is rather lengthy, but I believe the video 
part is as follows:


00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/PM/GMS, 943/940GML and 945GT Express Memory Controller Hub (rev 03)
	Subsystem: Sony Corporation Device 8212
	Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
	Capabilities: [e0] Vendor Specific Information <?>

00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS, 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03) (prog-if 00 [VGA controller])
	Subsystem: Sony Corporation Device 8212
	Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 7
	Memory at dc100000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=512K]
	I/O ports at 1800 [size=8]
	Memory at c0000000 (32-bit, prefetchable) [size=256M]
	Memory at dc200000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=256K]
	Capabilities: [90] Message Signalled Interrupts: Mask- 64bit- Count=1/1 Enable-
	Capabilities: [d0] Power Management version 2

00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation Mobile 945GM/GMS/GME, 943/940GML Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 03)
	Subsystem: Sony Corporation Device 8212
	Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0
	Memory at dc180000 (32-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=512K]
	Capabilities: [d0] Power Management version 2


As I mentioned, hibernate mostly works, but totally powers down perhaps 
1/3 of the time.  If someone does realize 100% execution with such a box 
I'd be interested.

Gerry wrote:
>
> Laptops are very hardware specific, so the problem has a lot to do 
> with what laptop you have.
> Could you provide specs to the list?  What brand and make what video 
> card. Maybe even the output of lspci -v
>
> Also, how are you kicking off the hibernate? Is it to disk or just the 
> memory suspend?
>
> I've struggled with suspend to ram and suspend to disk before with 
> varying degrees of success, so, "yes" to that question.
>
> Gerry
> (you should Reply to the list to get some more answers)
>
> On Sat, 11 Oct 2008, rhubarbpie at poetworld.net wrote:
>> Hibernate takes my box down stone-cold-dead only 1/3 of the time.
>> Usually the I/O light doesn't go out and I have to hold the power
>> switch.  Hibernate always writes the image, blanks the screen, and
>> restore properly.  However, I have to do the manual thing often.
>>
>> This isn't a big problem, but if it's fixable ...  I'm running compiled
>> Linux From Scratch 6.3 with the 2.6.26 kernel and the TuxOnIce 1.99
>> script.  I commonly have an OpenOffice spreadsheet, Thunderbird, and
>> Opera up when hibernating (no internet connection).
>>
>> Again, it's not a huge problem but I don't understand the
>> inconsistency.  Do others have the problem?
>>
>


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Oct 13 13:10:31 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:10:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Web Crawler - News Collector
In-Reply-To: <48F38AF4.7010103@b-o-b.homelinux.com>
References: <48F38AF4.7010103@b-o-b.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <03001028-83FD-43B9-902B-D65F16986598@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 13, 2008, at 12:52 PM, Robert De Mars wrote:

> I was wondering if anyone knew of an open source project that can do  
> the
> following.
>
> I have an internal web server at work that employees use for various  
> things.
>
> I am looking for a piece of software (or several pieces if needed)  
> that
> would crawl various industry related websites, and then save a local
> copy of the articles.  I would like the software to collect the  
> selected
> content, and when it is done crawling create an index file where
> employees can see various industry news on one page.


wget and curl can do this for you.  wget is most capable, including  
editing of paths and such for local viewing.  Pretty common thing to do.

As far as the 'index' page, that's something you'd have to munge  
together yourself, I think.
---
Eric Crist






From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 13 14:19:57 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2008 14:19:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Web Crawler - News Collector
In-Reply-To: <03001028-83FD-43B9-902B-D65F16986598@secure-computing.net>
References: <48F38AF4.7010103@b-o-b.homelinux.com>
	<03001028-83FD-43B9-902B-D65F16986598@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810131407550.5835@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008, Eric F Crist wrote:

> On Oct 13, 2008, at 12:52 PM, Robert De Mars wrote:
>
>> I was wondering if anyone knew of an open source project that can do 
>> the following.
>>
>> I have an internal web server at work that employees use for various 
>> things.
>>
>> I am looking for a piece of software (or several pieces if needed) that 
>> would crawl various industry related websites, and then save a local 
>> copy of the articles.  I would like the software to collect the 
>> selected content, and when it is done crawling create an index file 
>> where employees can see various industry news on one page.
>
>
> wget and curl can do this for you.  wget is most capable, including 
> editing of paths and such for local viewing.  Pretty common thing to do.
>
> As far as the 'index' page, that's something you'd have to munge 
> together yourself, I think.


I have used wget and another program called HTTrack, but I'm not sure that 
wget can properly rewrite the pages for local viewing.  Has anyone 
compared these two programs?  Like wget, HTTrack is GPL'd and available 
for Linux:

http://www.httrack.com/
http://www.gnu.org/software/wget/

If wget will do it just as well, I guess I'd use wget because it is 
present on more systems and I just use it a lot more often.

Mike


From adam at askewview.net  Tue Oct 14 11:29:50 2008
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:29:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Multi-domain hosting
Message-ID: <50967.70.58.151.162.1224001790.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>

I've been running a Gentoo box for a number of years now running a few
domains off if it for myself and a few friends. I've been doing all the
administration for BIND/Apache/Sendmail by hand.

I'm looking to retire the hardware its on and possibly move the sites out
of their current location.

I'm looking at Slicehost as a place to get a decent priced VPS that can
run any number of pre-configured distros.

On top of this I'm also thinking about playing around with ISPconfig as it
looks like a decent free alternative to CPanel.

I want to get away from having to do all the admin work for my friends
when they want to change a DNS entry or add a new email addy.


Just wondering if anyone has done something similar for personal use? If
so any recommendations

Thanks,
Adam



From rbrown at rawmindz.com  Tue Oct 14 11:37:53 2008
From: rbrown at rawmindz.com (Robert Brown)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:37:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Multi-domain hosting
In-Reply-To: <50967.70.58.151.162.1224001790.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
References: <50967.70.58.151.162.1224001790.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
Message-ID: <916e208f0810140937o126a61f6h3a0af79000c3cb2b@mail.gmail.com>

I've always found Webmin full-featured and easy to use.  Virtualmin
and Usermin makes supporting virtual hosts and their human
counter-parts pretty simple.

Rob

On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:29 AM, Adam <adam at askewview.net> wrote:
> I've been running a Gentoo box for a number of years now running a few
> domains off if it for myself and a few friends. I've been doing all the
> administration for BIND/Apache/Sendmail by hand.
>
> I'm looking to retire the hardware its on and possibly move the sites out
> of their current location.
>
> I'm looking at Slicehost as a place to get a decent priced VPS that can
> run any number of pre-configured distros.
>
> On top of this I'm also thinking about playing around with ISPconfig as it
> looks like a decent free alternative to CPanel.
>
> I want to get away from having to do all the admin work for my friends
> when they want to change a DNS entry or add a new email addy.
>
>
> Just wondering if anyone has done something similar for personal use? If
> so any recommendations
>
> Thanks,
> Adam
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From drue at therub.org  Tue Oct 14 11:43:55 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 11:43:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Multi-domain hosting
In-Reply-To: <50967.70.58.151.162.1224001790.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
References: <50967.70.58.151.162.1224001790.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
Message-ID: <20081014164355.GA45992@therub.org>

On Tue, Oct 14, 2008 at 11:29:50AM -0500, Adam wrote:
> I've been running a Gentoo box for a number of years now running a few
> domains off if it for myself and a few friends. I've been doing all the
> administration for BIND/Apache/Sendmail by hand.
> 
> I'm looking to retire the hardware its on and possibly move the sites out
> of their current location.
> 
> I'm looking at Slicehost as a place to get a decent priced VPS that can
> run any number of pre-configured distros.
> 
> On top of this I'm also thinking about playing around with ISPconfig as it
> looks like a decent free alternative to CPanel.
> 
> I want to get away from having to do all the admin work for my friends
> when they want to change a DNS entry or add a new email addy.
> 
> Just wondering if anyone has done something similar for personal use? If
> so any recommendations

I run my own servers, but have eased my administration over the last few
years by relying on everydns.net for free and easy dns, and i've more
recently moved to google apps for email.  Freeing yourself from DNS and
especially email goes a long way in making it managable, imho.

I've tried outsourcing web stuff, but I am just too picky about how
everything is setup.  I have a server at a remote colo, but I just got
comcast business class at home and plan on moving back again to a local
server.

Dan


From jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org  Tue Oct 14 14:55:11 2008
From: jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org (jkey)
Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2008 14:55:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] TC*G*LUG
In-Reply-To: <200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEAICMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>	<200810071424.28886.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810071516450.26269@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810080127.38601.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <48F4F91F.2020509@tomobiki.dyndns.org>

I have been reading this series of discussions. My vote would be to 
change the heading on the web page and any other material to add the 
GNU. But keep the tclug.org web address. It would be counter productive 
to change a long existing web address unless the entity was completely 
changing it focus or needed to differentiate itself from the old entity.

Looking at this from a different perspective would be to drop GNU and 
Linux. Changing the title to Twin Cities Open Source User Group 
(TCOSUG). That way you could encompass all the different groups that 
make up the operating systems we all use and like.

Joseph



From gnomes60 at charter.net  Wed Oct 15 12:16:22 2008
From: gnomes60 at charter.net (The Gnome)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 12:16:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 46, Issue 62
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1224090004.4476.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1224090004.4476.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <48F62566.4020408@charter.net>

Joseph seems to be the voice of reason. 


Alton
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From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Wed Oct 15 13:45:53 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:45:53 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger drive?
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

I'm running Debian stable.  Everything is working fine but there's
little free disk space remaining.  How can I migrate everything to a
larger disk?  Ideally, this would include all programs, configuration
files, user's data, crontab's, etc.  I want to avoid
reinstalling/configuring all the running services.

 

Would something like 

 

    #dd  if=/dev/hda  of=/dev/hdb

 

work?  How would, could (should?) I use dd?   I assume I would first
need to format the replacement drive with appropriate partitions (ext3
and swap).  After the files are copied, I suppose I could rejumper the
target drive to make it /hda or just edit it's /etc/fstab.

 

What other tools might fit the task?

 

-Craig

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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Oct 15 13:56:32 2008
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 13:56:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
 drive?
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810151355030.9195@dragon>

I usually put the new drive in the running system, partition and mkfs the 
partitions the way I like 'em, then boot from a CD and mount both 
filesystem trees under /old and /new, and fo a find . -mount -print | cpio 
-pVd [new drive]. 
Then I reinstall grub or lilo or whatever.



On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Smith, Craig A wrote:

> 
> I?m running Debian stable.? Everything is working fine but there?s little
> free disk space remaining.? How can I migrate everything to a larger disk??
> Ideally, this would include all programs, configuration files, user?s data,
> crontab?s, etc.? I want to avoid reinstalling/configuring all the running
> services.
> 
> ?
> 
> Would something like
> 
> ?
> 
> ??? #dd? if=/dev/hda? of=/dev/hdb
> 
> ?
> 
> work?? How would, could (should?) I use dd??? I assume I would first need to
> format the replacement drive with appropriate partitions (ext3 and swap).?
> After the files are copied, I suppose I could rejumper the target drive to
> make it /hda or just edit it?s /etc/fstab.
> 
> ?
> 
> What other tools might fit the task?
> 
> ?
> 
> -Craig
> 
> 
>


-Yaron

--

From haircut at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 14:02:02 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:02:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <1224097322.17999.17.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 14:45 -0400, Smith, Craig A wrote:
> Would something like 
>   #dd  if=/dev/hda  of=/dev/hdb
> work?

I think so, assuming
* neither are mounted
* hdb is assigned to the new drive
* the new drive is the same size or larger than the original

> I assume I would first need to format the replacement drive with
> appropriate partitions (ext3 and swap).

dd also copies filesystems, so no need to format the new drive unless
you want to change the partition layout.

After you've done the image transfer, you can use resize2fs to enlarge
the partition.

> After the files are copied, I suppose I could rejumper the target
> drive to make it /hda or just edit it?s /etc/fstab.

Yep. Unless both are jumpered to "cable select", then you should just be
able to change the cabling. There may be a UUID or disk label
in /etc/fstab, so be sure to update that if necessary.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Wed Oct 15 17:11:48 2008
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 17:11:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <1224097322.17999.17.camel@localhost>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<1224097322.17999.17.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <1224108708.5006.1279510183@webmail.messagingengine.com>


On Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:02:02 -0500, "Adam Monsen" <haircut at gmail.com>
said:
> On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 14:45 -0400, Smith, Craig A wrote:
> > Would something like 
> >   #dd  if=/dev/hda  of=/dev/hdb
> > work?
> 
> I think so, assuming
> * neither are mounted
> * hdb is assigned to the new drive
> * the new drive is the same size or larger than the original
> 
> > I assume I would first need to format the replacement drive with
> > appropriate partitions (ext3 and swap).
> 
> dd also copies filesystems, so no need to format the new drive unless
> you want to change the partition layout.
> 
> After you've done the image transfer, you can use resize2fs to enlarge
> the partition.

First create the larger partitions on the new drive and then use dd on
the devices for those partitions.
E.g.
#dd if=/dev/hda1 of=/dev/hdb1
#dd if=/dev/hda3 of=/dev/hdb3

resize2fs won't change the partition size but you can use it to extend
the filesytem to use the new, larger partition.


From dean at ripperd.com  Wed Oct 15 18:03:33 2008
From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:03:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.0810151355030.9195@dragon>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.0810151355030.9195@dragon>
Message-ID: <48F676C5.2080301@ripperd.com>

Yes, this is a better way to do it than DD.

Process is (assuming IDE):

1. Shut down PC
2. Move main HDD to hdb (primary slave)
3. Add new hdd as hda (primary master)
4. Boot a live CD (knoppix, ubuntu, gentoo, whatever flavor you like).
5. fdisk your hda to a similar layout (but using the larger space of the 
new disk).
6. mkfs your partitions.
7. Mount each old partition, its corresponding new partition, and use cp 
-a to copy the file structure.
7.1. fix your fstab if you changed the partition numbers.
8. run grub or lilo to install the boot record. Or dd if=/dev/sdb 
of=/dev/hda bs=440b count=1 (this should copy boot record from old disk 
to new disk)
9. shut down, remove live cd.
10. remove old HDD.
11. boot new hdd. everything should be fine.

-Dean

Yaron wrote:
> I usually put the new drive in the running system, partition and mkfs 
> the partitions the way I like 'em, then boot from a CD and mount both 
> filesystem trees under /old and /new, and fo a find . -mount -print | 
> cpio -pVd [new drive]. Then I reinstall grub or lilo or whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Smith, Craig A wrote:
> 
>>
>> I?m running Debian stable.  Everything is working fine but there?s little
>> free disk space remaining.  How can I migrate everything to a larger 
>> disk? 
>> Ideally, this would include all programs, configuration files, user?s 
>> data,
>> crontab?s, etc.  I want to avoid reinstalling/configuring all the running
>> services.
>>
>>  
>>
>> Would something like
>>
>>  
>>
>>     #dd  if=/dev/hda  of=/dev/hdb
>>
>>  
>>
>> work?  How would, could (should?) I use dd?   I assume I would first 
>> need to
>> format the replacement drive with appropriate partitions (ext3 and 
>> swap). 
>> After the files are copied, I suppose I could rejumper the target 
>> drive to
>> make it /hda or just edit it?s /etc/fstab.
>>
>>  
>>
>> What other tools might fit the task?
>>
>>  
>>
>> -Craig
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Wed Oct 15 18:55:28 2008
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 18:55:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <27e6356a0810151655m4cb9be32l72375cbfe574752e@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Smith, Craig A
<Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> I'm running Debian stable.  Everything is working fine but there's little
> free disk space remaining.  How can I migrate everything to a larger disk?
> Ideally, this would include all programs, configuration files, user's data,
> crontab's, etc.  I want to avoid reinstalling/configuring all the running
> services.

This is a question that seems to come up from time to time, and always
a good thing to take a look at is, the "Hard Disk Upgrade Mini How-To"
: http://www.faqs.org/docs/Linux-mini/Hard-Disk-Upgrade.html

It's a bit old, but it is still quite comprehensive, and shows
different options, depending on exactly what you want to do.  I've
found it to be VERY handy in the past!
- Justin


From tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com  Wed Oct 15 22:51:54 2008
From: tclug at b-o-b.homelinux.com (Robert De Mars)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:51:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question - Web Crawler - News Collector
Message-ID: <48F6BA5A.7000703@b-o-b.homelinux.com>

I was wondering if anyone knew of an open source project that can do the 
following.

I have an internal web server at work that employees use for various things.

I am looking for a piece of software (or several pieces if needed) that 
would crawl various industry related websites, and then save a local 
copy of the articles.  I would like the software to collect the selected 
content, and when it is done crawling create an index file where 
employees can see various industry news on one page.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Bob


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 00:49:09 2008
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 00:49:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Question - Web Crawler - News Collector
In-Reply-To: <48F6BA5A.7000703@b-o-b.homelinux.com>
References: <48F6BA5A.7000703@b-o-b.homelinux.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f0810152249uaf961vd6951ab513c7cd1f@mail.gmail.com>

Grab a feed aggregator such as Planet or any of various modules for
popular CMSs.  Then, just add the RSS/Atom feeds for a few choice
sites and/or a Google News / Google Blog Search results feed(s).

-- 
Tony Yarusso
http://tonyyarusso.com/


From john.meier at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 04:00:29 2008
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 04:00:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <65293fcc0810160200g5f60e55ey2a89998eff96c31a@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Smith, Craig A <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com
> wrote:

>  I'm running Debian stable.  Everything is working fine but there's little
> free disk space remaining.  How can I migrate everything to a larger disk?
> Ideally, this would include all programs, configuration files, user's data,
> crontab's, etc.  I want to avoid reinstalling/configuring all the running
> services.
>
>
>

I've used this guide http://www.nilbus.com/linux/disk-copy.php before to
copy a lot of windows installs to larger disks.  I think I have used it to
copy my mythtv install to a larger disk too - can't remember though as it
was quite a long time ago...

Has worked well for me.  Sometimes I use dd-rescue (dd_rescue or ddrescue
depending) instead of the dd command when copying the individual partitions
- dd_rescue shows some output so you know how fast it's copying and if it
has any problems along the way.
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From haircut at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 09:35:54 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 09:35:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <1224108708.5006.1279510183@webmail.messagingengine.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<1224097322.17999.17.camel@localhost>
	<1224108708.5006.1279510183@webmail.messagingengine.com>
Message-ID: <1224167754.2587.7.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2008-10-15 at 17:11 -0500, Isaac Atilano wrote:
> resize2fs won't change the partition size but you can use it to extend
> the filesytem to use the new, larger partition.

Indeed! Thanks for the correction, Isaac.

Let me try again, assuming the original poster didn't want to change the
partition layout, they could:

* use dd to clone the whole disk onto a larger disk
* use parted to grow the partition
* use resize2fs to grow the filesystem

...yes? I've not tried this myself, but it sounds like it should work.

If I were to upgrade a disk, I'd probably use the "Hard Disk Upgrade
Mini How-To" that Justin mentioned instead, I just wanted to complete
the thought exercise.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From drue at therub.org  Thu Oct 16 10:00:45 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:00:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a
	larger	drive?
In-Reply-To: <1224167754.2587.7.camel@localhost>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<1224097322.17999.17.camel@localhost>
	<1224108708.5006.1279510183@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<1224167754.2587.7.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <20081016150045.GA84463@therub.org>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 09:35:54AM -0500, Adam Monsen wrote:
> * use dd to clone the whole disk onto a larger disk
> * use parted to grow the partition
> * use resize2fs to grow the filesystem

dd is a good tool, but it's best to understand what it does.  dd copies
data at the block level - it cares not about the data, or the
partitioning, or anything like that.  Chunk in, chunk out.  It's great
for doing things like:

"Oh, I need a 100MB test file"
dd if=/dev/random of=100MB_test_file bs=1M count=1024

I think dd is bad, however, for moving disks.  

First, unless your disks are exactly the same size, you might/will run
into problems (perhaps with some filesystems you can adjust them after
the fact).  Second, it's inefficient.  Say you're moving from a 200GB
hard drive to a 400GB hard drive, and you're using about 40GB of your
200GB hard drive.  DD will copy 200GB, even though you're only using
40GB.  That's right, it'll copy 160GB of empty space, because it doesn't
know better.  Also, you'll end up with 200GB partitions on the 400GB
drive.

I've always preferred to setup the partitions on a new device and then
use a higher level tool to move the data over to the new locations.

Hope that helps, 
dan

-- 
As implied by email protocols, the information in this message is not
not confidential.  Any middle-man or recipient may inspect, modify,
copy, forward, reply to, delete, or filter email for any purpose.  As
the sender, I acknowledge that I have less expectation of the control
and privacy of this message than I would a post-card.  As a result,
nothing in this message is legally binding without cryptographic proof
of its integrity, and no legal obligation can be implied on behalf of
the recipient.  http://bilbo.hobbiton.org/wiki/Eat_My_Sig


From andyschmid at gmail.com  Thu Oct 16 10:13:35 2008
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 10:13:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <20081016150045.GA84463@therub.org>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<1224097322.17999.17.camel@localhost>
	<1224108708.5006.1279510183@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<1224167754.2587.7.camel@localhost>
	<20081016150045.GA84463@therub.org>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a30810160813r48fedfc4ib1e52c0cb64c83b7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 10:00 AM, Dan Rue <drue at therub.org> wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 09:35:54AM -0500, Adam Monsen wrote:
> > * use dd to clone the whole disk onto a larger disk
> > * use parted to grow the partition
> > * use resize2fs to grow the filesystem
>
> dd is a good tool, but it's best to understand what it does.  dd copies
> data at the block level - it cares not about the data, or the
> partitioning, or anything like that.  Chunk in, chunk out.  It's great
> for doing things like:
>
> "Oh, I need a 100MB test file"
> dd if=/dev/random of=100MB_test_file bs=1M count=1024
>
> I think dd is bad, however, for moving disks.
>
> First, unless your disks are exactly the same size, you might/will run
> into problems (perhaps with some filesystems you can adjust them after
> the fact).  Second, it's inefficient.  Say you're moving from a 200GB
> hard drive to a 400GB hard drive, and you're using about 40GB of your
> 200GB hard drive.  DD will copy 200GB, even though you're only using
> 40GB.  That's right, it'll copy 160GB of empty space, because it doesn't
> know better.  Also, you'll end up with 200GB partitions on the 400GB
> drive.
>
> I've always preferred to setup the partitions on a new device and then
> use a higher level tool to move the data over to the new locations.


This is good advice too.  I would use "rsync -av /source /destination" to
copy your files from a high level, then reinstall grub to the MBR of your
new drive.  See the rsync man for more options.
This method also gives you the opportunity to switch up file systems if you
want (though, I would recommend ext3 for your system partitions).

Andy
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From thecubic at thecubic.net  Thu Oct 16 11:13:39 2008
From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson)
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:13:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a
	larger	drive?
In-Reply-To: <1224167754.2587.7.camel@localhost>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>	<1224097322.17999.17.camel@localhost>	<1224108708.5006.1279510183@webmail.messagingengine.com>
	<1224167754.2587.7.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <48F76833.30301@thecubic.net>

Adam Monsen wrote:
> Let me try again, assuming the original poster didn't want to change the
> partition layout, they could:
>
> * use dd to clone the whole disk onto a larger disk
> * use parted to grow the partition
> * use resize2fs to grow the filesystem
>
> ...yes? I've not tried this myself, but it sounds like it should work.
>   
It's a heck of a lot easier to just start out with the partition layout
you want (I'm assuming no LVM), block copy, then grow into those
partitions.  It works like a charm - I've done it a few times.  The
trick is that your partition size doesn't matter to the FS if it's
larger than the FS.  There's also some implications to cloning a whole
disk (including partition table) onto another that would probably
require you to blow the partitions away and recreate them anyway.

If you have:

100M /boot as sda1 (look in fdisk at how many blocks it is)
10G / as sda2

you can create:
100M /boot as sdb1 (make sure blocks is at least as much as above)
50G / as sdb2

then:
dd if=/dev/sda1 of=/dev/sdb1
resize2fs /dev/sdb1
dd if=/dev/sda2 of=/dev/sdb2
resize2fs /dev/sdb2

fix grub, and you're good to go.

-Dave





From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Wed Oct 15 14:14:46 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:14:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] How do I migrate a working system to a larger
	drive?
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60193B75A@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <200810151414.47093.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Wednesday October 15 2008 13:45:53 Smith, Craig A wrote:
> I'm running Debian stable.  Everything is working fine but there's
> little free disk space remaining.  How can I migrate everything to a
> larger disk?  Ideally, this would include all programs, configuration
> files, user's data, crontab's, etc.  I want to avoid
> reinstalling/configuring all the running services.
>
>
>
> Would something like
>
>
>
>     #dd  if=/dev/hda  of=/dev/hdb
>
>
>
> work?  How would, could (should?) I use dd?   I assume I would first
> need to format the replacement drive with appropriate partitions (ext3
> and swap).  After the files are copied, I suppose I could rejumper the
> target drive to make it /hda or just edit it's /etc/fstab.
>
>
>
> What other tools might fit the task?
>
>
>
> -Craig

I just had to do this myself for the first time. Here's how I did it. Using dd 
instead may be more efficient, but this worked without issue for me. These 
instructions assume a one-partition setup and an already formatted drive. 
Adjust to suit your needs.

0. Plug in the new drive.
1. Boot a live CD.
2. Mount /mnt/old and /mnt/new
3. cp -va /mnt/old /mnt/new
4. Change /etc/fstab and /boot/grub/menu.lst to reflect the new location of /
5. grub-install /dev/hda
6. Boot your system, you're done.

-pete
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From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Oct 17 15:35:15 2008
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 15:35:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Wikis, Ubuntu 8.10 peek,
 and Open Q&A Topic @PenguinsUnbound Linux Meeting Oct. 25th
Message-ID: <48F8F703.800@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday October 25th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00 to 12:00.

(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This month we will talk about Wiki's and the Wiki used on the website. 
Looking at what wiki's are and how to use them.  Please bring your wiki 
questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Then we will take a peek at soon to be released Ubuntu 8.10.

And we should have time to answer your Linux questions.

*** The Install Fest has been moved to Nov. 8th from 9:00am to 5:00pm 
because Ubuntu 8.10 does not come out until Oct. 30th.  Hope you can 
make it then!  I know I can't wait! ***

Thanks, hope to see you there!

==>brian.


From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Sat Oct 18 18:57:18 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 2008 18:57:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200810182357.m9INvIA03080@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: Server and web box

Team Internet 300 Series.  $40 or trade for a tower case with one easily removable side.  Contact me for specs, info and photos.

Seller Email address: 1linux at comcast dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Sun Oct 19 23:33:21 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 19 Oct 2008 23:33:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on Monday
	afternoon
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

I've been in touch with Richard Stallman (RMS) a few times about his 
visit.  I think he is in the Twin Cities now.  He tells me that he loves 
Jonathan apples and he wants to buy some.  I don't know anything about 
Jonathan apples or where to get them, but I looked for info and found via 
Google that Aamodt's Apple Farm and Bakery, near Stillwater, normally has 
them.

It turns out that RMS could go there only on Monday afternoon (10/20), but 
he doesn't have a ride.  So this creates an opportunity for someone with a 
car who wants to hang out for an afternoon with Richard Stallman.  It 
sounds like it would be a pretty interesting experience and I would do it 
myself, but Monday afternoon isn't good for me.

If you are interested in driving RMS to Aamodt's and back, reply to this 
message.  If more than one of you is interested, I'll try to coordinate 
something (i.e., more than one of you might go, but probably three would 
be the limit).

Best,
Mike


From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com  Mon Oct 20 03:00:27 2008
From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 03:00:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on Monday
 afternoon
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20081020023557.0253e528@pop.mm.com>

At 10/19/2008 11:33 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
>He tells me that he loves Jonathan apples and he wants to buy some.

Another idea:

Take him to the U of M fruit farm, ~25(?) miles SW of Minneapolis, 
across from the Arboretum on MN Hwy 5 I think, near the 
town/development of Jonathan.  Back in the sixties, when I was a wee 
lad, a high point of the season was my family's  pilgrimage to the 
fruit farm for their fall open house.  Back then they used to take 
visitors on hayrides through the orchards, and I was especially 
fascinated by the sorting machinery in the big barn -- they'd dump 
onto a conveyor belt at one end, and over a distance of maybe 20 
yards the spinning rubber wheels would kick out different sizes into 
side trays.  It's been decades since my last visit, so I'm not sure 
how much of any that nostalgia survives, but I'm 95% sure they still 
sell their apples/pears/whatnot at a small store on site.

The U is renowned, I believe, among apple cognoscenti for having 
developed several varieties of apples suitable for growing in 
northern climes -- in fact, one of them (I think) is the 
Jonathan.  Somewhere on the grounds, if I recall, is the original 
honey crisp tree, still alive.

They grow all sorts of experimental and not-safe-for supermarket 
varieties -- supermarkets want long shelf life and rugged bruise 
resistance -- some of which are ultra yummy and unavailable anywhere else.

Anyway: set him up on a cook's tour with one of the agronomists out 
there, and RMS will experience the closest thing to apple heaven this 
side of the Gulf of Mexico!



From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com  Mon Oct 20 03:34:51 2008
From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 03:34:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on Monday
 afternoon
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20081020023557.0253e528@pop.mm.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<6.1.2.0.2.20081020023557.0253e528@pop.mm.com>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20081020032603.02568b28@pop.mm.com>

I suggested:
>Take [RMS] to the U of M fruit farm,


Here's the link : http://www.maes.umn.edu/components/ROCArb.asp

They've renamed the place since my childhood.
    Was "Fruit Breeding Farm"
    Now "Horticultural Research Center and The Arboretum"

They did NOT develop the Jonathon.
They DID breed the Honeycrisp.

On the home page (linked above):

Established in 1908 as the University's Fruit Breeding Farm, the 
Center's earliest goal was to develop apple varieties that would 
thrive in Minnesota.  The HRC, on 230 acres, is one of only a few 
facilities in the world dedicated to breeding and developing 
cold-hardy fruit and woody landscape plants. 



From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Mon Oct 20 09:01:19 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:01:19 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on
	Mondayafternoon
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60196FA93@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

I have a minivan that seats 7, including the driver (me).

Where and when do I pick up RMS and anyone else that's interested?



-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2008 23:33
To: TCLUG List
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on
Mondayafternoon

I've been in touch with Richard Stallman (RMS) a few times about his 
visit.  I think he is in the Twin Cities now.  He tells me that he loves

Jonathan apples and he wants to buy some.  I don't know anything about 
Jonathan apples or where to get them, but I looked for info and found
via 
Google that Aamodt's Apple Farm and Bakery, near Stillwater, normally
has 
them.

It turns out that RMS could go there only on Monday afternoon (10/20),
but 
he doesn't have a ride.  So this creates an opportunity for someone with
a 
car who wants to hang out for an afternoon with Richard Stallman.  It 
sounds like it would be a pretty interesting experience and I would do
it 
myself, but Monday afternoon isn't good for me.

If you are interested in driving RMS to Aamodt's and back, reply to this

message.  If more than one of you is interested, I'll try to coordinate 
something (i.e., more than one of you might go, but probably three would

be the limit).

Best,
Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at jfoo.org  Mon Oct 20 09:37:31 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:37:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
Message-ID: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>

Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after?
With all the hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened
to the plans.

j

-- 
John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org>


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 20 09:38:04 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:38:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on
 Mondayafternoon
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60196FA93@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60196FA93@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810200932540.29868@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, Smith, Craig A wrote:

> I have a minivan that seats 7, including the driver (me).
>
> Where and when do I pick up RMS and anyone else that's interested?

That's great.  I know where he is staying, but I don't know if that is 
where he'll be.  I also don't know what time he wants to go, assuming you 
are flexible.

Stallman also wrote...

    Another thing I would like to do that afternoon is visit a used book
    store which has a big selection of paperbacks.

...in case anyone is interested.  I'm not sure which store would be the 
best choice.

I'll try to get in touch with him.

Mike


From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 20 09:57:39 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 09:57:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on
	Mondayafternoon
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810200932540.29868@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGMEEOCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 9:38 AM
>
>
> Stallman also wrote...
>
>     Another thing I would like to do that afternoon is visit a used book
>     store which has a big selection of paperbacks.

Midwest on the corner of University and Snelling is good.  Magers and Quinn on Hennepin across from Calhoun Square may be a little
better for paperbacks.


Chuck



From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Mon Oct 20 10:01:27 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:01:27 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on
	Mondayafternoon
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810200932540.29868@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810192319030.12659@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60196FA93@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810200932540.29868@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E60196FBB8@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

Midway Used & Rare Books on the NE corner of Snelling and University is
huge
 
http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&safe=off&q=used+book+store+St.+Paul&ie
=UTF8&ll=44.966134,-93.149128&spn=0.062549,0.089779&z=13&iwloc=B 

and it's on the way to/from Aamodt's Apple Farm in Stillwater.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=6428+Manning+Ave+N++Sti
llwater,+MN+55082&sll=44.891634,-93.609867&sspn=0.06263,0.089779&ie=UTF8
&ll=45.042903,-92.865586&spn=0.007808,0.011222&z=16&iwloc=r0 



-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Miller [mailto:mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu] 
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 09:38
To: Smith, Craig A
Cc: TCLUG List
Subject: RE: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman to Aamodt's Apple Farm on
Mondayafternoon

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, Smith, Craig A wrote:

> I have a minivan that seats 7, including the driver (me).
>
> Where and when do I pick up RMS and anyone else that's interested?

That's great.  I know where he is staying, but I don't know if that is 
where he'll be.  I also don't know what time he wants to go, assuming
you 
are flexible.

Stallman also wrote...

    Another thing I would like to do that afternoon is visit a used book
    store which has a big selection of paperbacks.

...in case anyone is interested.  I'm not sure which store would be the 
best choice.

I'll try to get in touch with him.

Mike


From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Mon Oct 20 10:43:19 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:43:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
In-Reply-To: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
References: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <200810201043.20031.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Monday October 20 2008 09:37:31 John Gateley wrote:
> Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after?
> With all the hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened
> to the plans.
>
> j

I'm still planning to go, but I'm probably too broke to go for beer afterward. 
We'll see though.

-p.
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From christophermsmith at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 10:45:42 2008
From: christophermsmith at gmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:45:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
Message-ID: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it
because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to find
any files that are huge or taking up this space.
Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used find in a
variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so and nothing seems
to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130 gig drive.. i hope
someone has some ideas.. this server is in a  remote colo too btw
Thanks in advance!

This is an output from du:

[root at mail /]# du -sh *
8.1M    bin
19M    boot
4.0K    data
96K    dev
59M    etc
82M    home
267M    lib
21M    lib64
16K    lost+found
12K    media
0    misc
8.0K    mnt
0    net
322M    opt
0    proc
124M    root
26M    sbin
8.0K    selinux
8.0K    srv
0    sys
20K    tmp
3.2G    usr
636M    var


--
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 20 10:48:00 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:48:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
In-Reply-To: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
References: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810201047060.29868@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, John Gateley wrote:

> Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after? With all the 
> hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened to the plans.


Let's do it.  I'll be there.

Mike


From trnja001 at umn.edu  Mon Oct 20 10:54:46 2008
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:54:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>

Where is it reporting zero available space? Maybe you have a partition 
for read only media such as a DVD and it's misreporting that as lacking 
space.

Try `df -h` to get information about your mounted partitions.

Chris Smith wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it 
> because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to 
> find any files that are huge or taking up this space.
> Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used 
> find in a variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so and 
> nothing seems to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130 gig 
> drive.. i hope someone has some ideas.. this server is in a  remote 
> colo too btw
> Thanks in advance!
>
> This is an output from du:
>
> [root at mail /]# du -sh *
> 8.1M    bin
> 19M    boot
> 4.0K    data
> 96K    dev
> 59M    etc
> 82M    home
> 267M    lib
> 21M    lib64
> 16K    lost+found
> 12K    media
> 0    misc
> 8.0K    mnt
> 0    net
> 322M    opt
> 0    proc
> 124M    root
> 26M    sbin
> 8.0K    selinux
> 8.0K    srv
> 0    sys
> 20K    tmp
> 3.2G    usr
> 636M    var
>
>
> -- 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From christophermsmith at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 11:01:36 2008
From: christophermsmith at gmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:01:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <5bab831e0810200901k62ff70cckaf305cffc94dfa43@mail.gmail.com>

There are other symptoms, like users can't start a new session in the web
app it is running, as it is messing up MySQL..
It is reporting the space in df...

[root at mail ~]# df -h
Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
                      130G  129G     0 100% /
/dev/sda1              99M   24M   71M  26% /boot
tmpfs                 2.0G     0  2.0G   0% /dev/shm


On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu> wrote:

> Where is it reporting zero available space? Maybe you have a partition for
> read only media such as a DVD and it's misreporting that as lacking space.
>
> Try `df -h` to get information about your mounted partitions.
>
> Chris Smith wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it
>> because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to find
>> any files that are huge or taking up this space.
>> Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used find in
>> a variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so and nothing seems
>> to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130 gig drive.. i hope
>> someone has some ideas.. this server is in a  remote colo too btw
>> Thanks in advance!
>>
>> This is an output from du:
>>
>> [root at mail /]# du -sh *
>> 8.1M    bin
>> 19M    boot
>> 4.0K    data
>> 96K    dev
>> 59M    etc
>> 82M    home
>> 267M    lib
>> 21M    lib64
>> 16K    lost+found
>> 12K    media
>> 0    misc
>> 8.0K    mnt
>> 0    net
>> 322M    opt
>> 0    proc
>> 124M    root
>> 26M    sbin
>> 8.0K    selinux
>> 8.0K    srv
>> 0    sys
>> 20K    tmp
>> 3.2G    usr
>> 636M    var
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
>


-- 
"The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
governed."

Ronald Reagan
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From tclug at jfoo.org  Mon Oct 20 11:00:41 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:00:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081020110041.96260b23.tclug@jfoo.org>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 10:45:42 -0500
"Chris Smith" <christophermsmith at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it
> because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to find
> any files that are huge or taking up this space.
> Below is an output from du * in the root directory. ...

Start with the output from "df" so you know which file system is full,
how big the file system is, etc.

Then use du or find to identify what's taking up space.

With servers it's very commonly a log file that isn't being
rotated or is unexpectedly large for some reason.

j

-- 
John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org>


From christophermsmith at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 11:03:23 2008
From: christophermsmith at gmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:03:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <5bab831e0810200901k62ff70cckaf305cffc94dfa43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
	<5bab831e0810200901k62ff70cckaf305cffc94dfa43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5bab831e0810200903k6bfa0bc9gd19724f63b120bf5@mail.gmail.com>

 I guess thats the odd part.  I've done all of that (i've had this happen
before on other servers) but i can't find any files big enough to be a
problem, or even a directory with a bunch of small files in it.



On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Chris Smith
<christophermsmith at gmail.com>wrote:

> There are other symptoms, like users can't start a new session in the web
> app it is running, as it is messing up MySQL..
> It is reporting the space in df...
>
> [root at mail ~]# df -h
> Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
> /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
>                       130G  129G     0 100% /
> /dev/sda1              99M   24M   71M  26% /boot
> tmpfs                 2.0G     0  2.0G   0% /dev/shm
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu>wrote:
>
>> Where is it reporting zero available space? Maybe you have a partition for
>> read only media such as a DVD and it's misreporting that as lacking space.
>>
>> Try `df -h` to get information about your mounted partitions.
>>
>> Chris Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it
>>> because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to find
>>> any files that are huge or taking up this space.
>>> Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used find
>>> in a variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so and nothing
>>> seems to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130 gig drive.. i hope
>>> someone has some ideas.. this server is in a  remote colo too btw
>>> Thanks in advance!
>>>
>>> This is an output from du:
>>>
>>> [root at mail /]# du -sh *
>>> 8.1M    bin
>>> 19M    boot
>>> 4.0K    data
>>> 96K    dev
>>> 59M    etc
>>> 82M    home
>>> 267M    lib
>>> 21M    lib64
>>> 16K    lost+found
>>> 12K    media
>>> 0    misc
>>> 8.0K    mnt
>>> 0    net
>>> 322M    opt
>>> 0    proc
>>> 124M    root
>>> 26M    sbin
>>> 8.0K    selinux
>>> 8.0K    srv
>>> 0    sys
>>> 20K    tmp
>>> 3.2G    usr
>>> 636M    var
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
> whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
> governed."
>
> Ronald Reagan
>



-- 
"The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
governed."

Ronald Reagan
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From drue at therub.org  Mon Oct 20 11:09:20 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:09:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <5bab831e0810200901k62ff70cckaf305cffc94dfa43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
	<5bab831e0810200901k62ff70cckaf305cffc94dfa43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081020160920.GB18395@therub.org>

It's possible that a process has a huge open file that's been removed
from the file system.  Until the process is killed or close()s the file,
it will still consume the space on the actual disk.  Maybe something
like lsof can find it, or you could just restart the suspected
processes.

dan

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:01:36AM -0500, Chris Smith wrote:
>    There are other symptoms, like users can't start a new session in the web
>    app it is running, as it is messing up MySQL..
>    It is reporting the space in df...
> 
>    [root at mail ~]# df -h
>    Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>    /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
>                          130G  129G     0 100% /
>    /dev/sda1              99M   24M   71M  26% /boot
>    tmpfs                 2.0G     0  2.0G   0% /dev/shm
> 
>    On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Elvedin Trnjanin <[1]trnja001 at umn.edu>
>    wrote:
> 
>      Where is it reporting zero available space? Maybe you have a partition
>      for read only media such as a DVD and it's misreporting that as lacking
>      space.
> 
>      Try `df -h` to get information about your mounted partitions.
> 
>      Chris Smith wrote:
> 
>        Hi,
> 
>        I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it
>        because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to
>        find any files that are huge or taking up this space.
>        Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used
>        find in a variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so and
>        nothing seems to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130 gig
>        drive.. i hope someone has some ideas.. this server is in a  remote
>        colo too btw
>        Thanks in advance!
> 
>        This is an output from du:
> 
>        [root at mail /]# du -sh *
>        8.1M    bin
>        19M    boot
>        4.0K    data
>        96K    dev
>        59M    etc
>        82M    home
>        267M    lib
>        21M    lib64
>        16K    lost+found
>        12K    media
>        0    misc
>        8.0K    mnt
>        0    net
>        322M    opt
>        0    proc
>        124M    root
>        26M    sbin
>        8.0K    selinux
>        8.0K    srv
>        0    sys
>        20K    tmp
>        3.2G    usr
>        636M    var
> 
>        --
> 
>        ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
>        _______________________________________________
>        TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>        [2]tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>        [3]http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
>    --
>    "The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
>    whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
>    governed."
> 
>    Ronald Reagan
> 
> References
> 
>    Visible links
>    1. mailto:trnja001 at umn.edu
>    2. mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>    3. http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


-- 
As implied by email protocols, the information in this message is not
not confidential.  Any middle-man or recipient may inspect, modify,
copy, forward, reply to, delete, or filter email for any purpose.  As
the sender, I acknowledge that I have less expectation of the control
and privacy of this message than I would a post-card.  As a result,
nothing in this message is legally binding without cryptographic proof
of its integrity, and no legal obligation can be implied on behalf of
the recipient.  http://bilbo.hobbiton.org/wiki/Eat_My_Sig


From sloncho at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 11:05:30 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:05:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810200905p2037c889gd5dcb9b2d002867c@mail.gmail.com>

what is the output of df ?

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Chris Smith
<christophermsmith at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it
> because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to find
> any files that are huge or taking up this space.
> Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used find in a
> variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so and nothing seems
> to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130 gig drive.. i hope
> someone has some ideas.. this server is in a  remote colo too btw
> Thanks in advance!
>
> This is an output from du:
>
> [root at mail /]# du -sh *
> 8.1M    bin
> 19M    boot
> 4.0K    data
> 96K    dev
> 59M    etc
> 82M    home
> 267M    lib
> 21M    lib64
> 16K    lost+found
> 12K    media
> 0    misc
> 8.0K    mnt
> 0    net
> 322M    opt
> 0    proc
> 124M    root
> 26M    sbin
> 8.0K    selinux
> 8.0K    srv
> 0    sys
> 20K    tmp
> 3.2G    usr
> 636M    var
>
>
> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From christophermsmith at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 11:07:46 2008
From: christophermsmith at gmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:07:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <5bab831e0810200903k6bfa0bc9gd19724f63b120bf5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
	<5bab831e0810200901k62ff70cckaf305cffc94dfa43@mail.gmail.com>
	<5bab831e0810200903k6bfa0bc9gd19724f63b120bf5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5bab831e0810200907u2cf0ecc6mb49d50c84eb384b0@mail.gmail.com>

In fact, here is how i am looking for large files:

[root at mail ~]# find / -type f -size +20000k -exec ls -lh {} \; | awk '{
print $9 ": " $5 }'
/var/lib/rpm/Packages: 35M
/var/named/chroot/proc/kcore: 4.8G
/var/cache/yum/rpmforge/primary.xml.gz.sqlite: 22M
/var/www/
info.technicanow.com/metadot/sitedata/private/2290/spark_2_5_8.exe.zip: 27M
/var/log/btmp: 252M
/var/log/maillog: 32M
/proc/kcore: 4.8G
/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1e.0/0000:12:0d.0/resource0: 128M
/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1c.0/0000:04:00.0/0000:05:00.0/resource0:
32M
/sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:02.0/0000:06:00.0/0000:07:00.0/0000:08:00.0/0000:09:00.0/resource0:
32M
/usr/lib/libgcj.so.7rh.0.0: 29M
/usr/lib/locale/locale-archive: 53M
/usr/lib64/libgcj.so.7rh.0.0: 42M
/usr/share/icons/crystalsvg/icon-theme.cache: 25M
/usr/include/c++/4.1.1/x86_64-redhat-linux/bits/stdc++.h.gch/O2g.gch: 31M
/usr/include/c++/4.1.1/x86_64-redhat-linux/bits/stdc++.h.gch/O0g.gch: 31M
/usr/include/c++/3.4.6/x86_64-redhat-linux/bits/stdc++.h.gch/O2g: 34M
/usr/include/c++/3.4.6/x86_64-redhat-linux/bits/stdc++.h.gch/O0g: 34M
/usr/java/jre1.5.0_11/lib/rt.jar: 35M
/opt/openfire/jre/lib/rt.jar: 42M


On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:03 AM, Chris Smith
<christophermsmith at gmail.com>wrote:

>  I guess thats the odd part.  I've done all of that (i've had this happen
> before on other servers) but i can't find any files big enough to be a
> problem, or even a directory with a bunch of small files in it.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Chris Smith <christophermsmith at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> There are other symptoms, like users can't start a new session in the web
>> app it is running, as it is messing up MySQL..
>> It is reporting the space in df...
>>
>> [root at mail ~]# df -h
>> Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>> /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
>>                       130G  129G     0 100% /
>> /dev/sda1              99M   24M   71M  26% /boot
>> tmpfs                 2.0G     0  2.0G   0% /dev/shm
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Elvedin Trnjanin <trnja001 at umn.edu>wrote:
>>
>>> Where is it reporting zero available space? Maybe you have a partition
>>> for read only media such as a DVD and it's misreporting that as lacking
>>> space.
>>>
>>> Try `df -h` to get information about your mounted partitions.
>>>
>>> Chris Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe it
>>>> because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem to find
>>>> any files that are huge or taking up this space.
>>>> Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used find
>>>> in a variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so and nothing
>>>> seems to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130 gig drive.. i hope
>>>> someone has some ideas.. this server is in a  remote colo too btw
>>>> Thanks in advance!
>>>>
>>>> This is an output from du:
>>>>
>>>> [root at mail /]# du -sh *
>>>> 8.1M    bin
>>>> 19M    boot
>>>> 4.0K    data
>>>> 96K    dev
>>>> 59M    etc
>>>> 82M    home
>>>> 267M    lib
>>>> 21M    lib64
>>>> 16K    lost+found
>>>> 12K    media
>>>> 0    misc
>>>> 8.0K    mnt
>>>> 0    net
>>>> 322M    opt
>>>> 0    proc
>>>> 124M    root
>>>> 26M    sbin
>>>> 8.0K    selinux
>>>> 8.0K    srv
>>>> 0    sys
>>>> 20K    tmp
>>>> 3.2G    usr
>>>> 636M    var
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> "The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
>> whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
>> governed."
>>
>> Ronald Reagan
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
> whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
> governed."
>
> Ronald Reagan
>



-- 
"The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
governed."

Ronald Reagan
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From florin at iucha.net  Mon Oct 20 11:21:49 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:21:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081020162149.GF3369@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:54:46AM -0500, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> Where is it reporting zero available space? Maybe you have a partition 
> for read only media such as a DVD and it's misreporting that as lacking 
> space.
> 
> Try `df -h` to get information about your mounted partitions.

Also run 'df -i' to check if you have any inodes left.  If not, you
might have to reformat some partitions.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From christophermsmith at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 11:24:45 2008
From: christophermsmith at gmail.com (Chris Smith)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:24:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help with server please.
In-Reply-To: <20081020160920.GB18395@therub.org>
References: <5bab831e0810200845q6e72a02dl8f7f1ef00abaa7e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FCA9C6.1050106@umn.edu>
	<5bab831e0810200901k62ff70cckaf305cffc94dfa43@mail.gmail.com>
	<20081020160920.GB18395@therub.org>
Message-ID: <5bab831e0810200924w10ae2d26n46ca0ed118d837e0@mail.gmail.com>

Dan was right!

I have openvpn running and its log file had been deleted so it was just
writing to memory!

lsof +L1 found it

Thanks everyone for your help!

Chris

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:09 AM, Dan Rue <drue at therub.org> wrote:

> It's possible that a process has a huge open file that's been removed
> from the file system.  Until the process is killed or close()s the file,
> it will still consume the space on the actual disk.  Maybe something
> like lsof can find it, or you could just restart the suspected
> processes.
>
> dan
>
> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:01:36AM -0500, Chris Smith wrote:
> >    There are other symptoms, like users can't start a new session in the
> web
> >    app it is running, as it is messing up MySQL..
> >    It is reporting the space in df...
> >
> >    [root at mail ~]# df -h
> >    Filesystem            Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
> >    /dev/mapper/VolGroup00-LogVol00
> >                          130G  129G     0 100% /
> >    /dev/sda1              99M   24M   71M  26% /boot
> >    tmpfs                 2.0G     0  2.0G   0% /dev/shm
> >
> >    On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 10:54 AM, Elvedin Trnjanin <[1]
> trnja001 at umn.edu>
> >    wrote:
> >
> >      Where is it reporting zero available space? Maybe you have a
> partition
> >      for read only media such as a DVD and it's misreporting that as
> lacking
> >      space.
> >
> >      Try `df -h` to get information about your mounted partitions.
> >
> >      Chris Smith wrote:
> >
> >        Hi,
> >
> >        I've got a server reporting zero available HD space, and I believe
> it
> >        because the website it isn't working right. However, I can't seem
> to
> >        find any files that are huge or taking up this space.
> >        Below is an output from du * in the root directory. I've also used
> >        find in a variety of way to find any files bigger than 10meg or so
> and
> >        nothing seems to be big enough to begin to take up the whole 130
> gig
> >        drive.. i hope someone has some ideas.. this server is in a
>  remote
> >        colo too btw
> >        Thanks in advance!
> >
> >        This is an output from du:
> >
> >        [root at mail /]# du -sh *
> >        8.1M    bin
> >        19M    boot
> >        4.0K    data
> >        96K    dev
> >        59M    etc
> >        82M    home
> >        267M    lib
> >        21M    lib64
> >        16K    lost+found
> >        12K    media
> >        0    misc
> >        8.0K    mnt
> >        0    net
> >        322M    opt
> >        0    proc
> >        124M    root
> >        26M    sbin
> >        8.0K    selinux
> >        8.0K    srv
> >        0    sys
> >        20K    tmp
> >        3.2G    usr
> >        636M    var
> >
> >        --
> >
> >
>  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >        _______________________________________________
> >        TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >        [2]tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >        [3]http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
> >    --
> >    "The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
> >    whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of
> the
> >    governed."
> >
> >    Ronald Reagan
> >
> > References
> >
> >    Visible links
> >    1. mailto:trnja001 at umn.edu
> >    2. mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >    3. http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> --
> As implied by email protocols, the information in this message is not
> not confidential.  Any middle-man or recipient may inspect, modify,
> copy, forward, reply to, delete, or filter email for any purpose.  As
> the sender, I acknowledge that I have less expectation of the control
> and privacy of this message than I would a post-card.  As a result,
> nothing in this message is legally binding without cryptographic proof
> of its integrity, and no legal obligation can be implied on behalf of
> the recipient.  http://bilbo.hobbiton.org/wiki/Eat_My_Sig
>



-- 
"The gun... insures that the people are the equal of their government
whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the
governed."

Ronald Reagan
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From florin at iucha.net  Mon Oct 20 11:27:17 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:27:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
In-Reply-To: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
References: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <20081020162716.GG3369@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 09:37:31AM -0500, John Gateley wrote:
> Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after?
> With all the hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened
> to the plans.

I'm going.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From dolson at multitech.com  Mon Oct 20 11:40:37 2008
From: dolson at multitech.com (Doug Olson)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:40:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
Message-ID: <1CD05B980C94AC408B37C82BBABAA3E60E5DDA2F@mtsexchange.dc.multitech.prv>

When and where will Mr. Stallman be speaking?  Is the Townhall Monday or
Tuesday?
Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 11:27 AM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?


On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 09:37:31AM -0500, John Gateley wrote:
> Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after?
> With all the hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened
> to the plans.

I'm going.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163


From sloncho at gmail.com  Mon Oct 20 11:47:15 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:47:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
In-Reply-To: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
References: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810200947q5ea7b2d3ve37b2f4e289cdc8a@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:37 AM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:
> Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after?
> With all the hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened
> to the plans.
>

I'll join. Just have to figure out where is this :)


-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From tclug at jfoo.org  Mon Oct 20 11:55:20 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:55:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
In-Reply-To: <20081020162716.GG3369@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
	<20081020162716.GG3369@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <20081020115520.8c49650c.tclug@jfoo.org>

> On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 09:37:31AM -0500, John Gateley wrote:
> > Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after?
> > With all the hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened
> > to the plans.

How should we find each other at Townhall?

j
-- 
John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org>


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 20 11:56:26 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:56:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
In-Reply-To: <1CD05B980C94AC408B37C82BBABAA3E60E5DDA2F@mtsexchange.dc.multitech.prv>
References: <1CD05B980C94AC408B37C82BBABAA3E60E5DDA2F@mtsexchange.dc.multitech.prv>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810201154430.29724@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, Doug Olson wrote:

> When and where will Mr. Stallman be speaking?  Is the Townhall Monday or 
> Tuesday?

Tuesday after his talk.  His talk starts at 6:30 Tuesday night, but I 
don't know when it ends:

http://www.umsec.umn.edu/events/Richard-Stallman-Free-Software-Movement-and-GNULin

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 20 13:48:26 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 13:48:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] [tclug-announce] Controversial software freedom
 activist to speak at U of M on Oct. 21
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810201347470.29724@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

Fred--

Whose words are these (below)?

They do make the talk sound interesting, but it is clearly impossible for 
free software or the GPL to destroy anything.  They only promote things.

Mike


On Sat, 18 Oct 2008, Fred H Olson wrote:

> Controversial free software advocate Richard Stallman, founder of the 
> Free Software Foundation and the GNU project, will speak at the 
> University of Minnesota at 6:30 p.m., Tuesday, Oct. 21 in Rm. 175, 
> Willey Hall, 225 19th Ave. S., Minneapolis. The event is free and open 
> to the public.
> 
> Stallman pioneered the concept of "copyleft", the practice of using 
> copyright law to remove restrictions on distributing copies and modified 
> versions of a work for others and requiring that the same freedoms be 
> preserved in modified versions. Stallman is the main author of the most 
> widely used free software license, the GNU General Public License. 
> Microsoft chairman Bill Gates and CEO Steve Ballmer have publicly 
> criticized the GNU General Public License and some software companies 
> have likened it to a virus that will "destroy the software industry".
> 
> In Stallman's talk, "The Free Software Movement and the GNU/Linux 
> Operating System", he will discuss the Free Software Movement, which 
> campaigns for the freedom of computer users to cooperate and control 
> their own computing activities.
> 
> Stallman's lecture is sponsored by the University of Minnesota's
> Software Engineering Center. For more information, visit
> http://www.msse.umn.edu/stallman.


From drue at therub.org  Mon Oct 20 14:09:37 2008
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:09:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tclug-announce] Controversial software
	freedom	activist to speak at U of M on Oct. 21
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810201347470.29724@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810201347470.29724@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081020190937.GA20538@therub.org>

On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 01:48:26PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> They do make the talk sound interesting, but it is clearly impossible for 
> free software or the GPL to destroy anything.  They only promote things.

                                             .:\:/:.
          +-------------------+             .:\:\:/:/:.
          |   PLEASE DO NOT   |            :.:\:\:/:/:.:
          |  FEED THE TROLLS  |           :=.' -   - '.=:
          |                   |           '=(\ 9   9 /)='
          |   Thank you,      |              (  (_)  )
          |       Management  |              /`-vvv-'\
          +-------------------+             /         \
                  |  |        @@@          / /|,,,,,|\ \
                  |  |        @@@         /_//  /^\  \\_\
    @x@@x@        |  |         |/         WW(  (   )  )WW
    \||||/        |  |        \|           __\,,\ /,,/__
     \||/         |  |         |      jgs (______Y______)
 /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\//\/\\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\



From cncole at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 20 14:34:19 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 14:34:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [tclug-announce] Controversial software freedom
	activist to speak at U of M on Oct. 21
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810201347470.29724@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEFBCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Monday, October 20, 2008 1:48 PM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [tclug-announce] Controversial software freedom activist to speak at U of M on Oct. 21
>
>
> Fred--
>
> Whose words are these (below)?
>
> They do make the talk sound interesting, but it is clearly impossible for
> free software or the GPL to destroy anything.  They only promote things.
>
> Mike

Maybe you're still out to lunch  :-)

The commercial shamware, er software "industry" typically believes that free and open source will erode (ie, "destroy") their
markets.  They are not entirely wrong: Linux has taken major share in the server market, and impacts other segments as well.  It's
not something active that is being done by free stuff or GPL.


Chuck



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 20 15:32:21 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2008 15:32:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] [tclug-announce] Controversial software freedom
 activist to speak at U of M on Oct. 21
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEFBCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGOEFBCMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810201524030.29724@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:

> The commercial shamware, er software "industry" typically believes that 
> free and open source will erode (ie, "destroy") their markets.  They are 
> not entirely wrong: Linux has taken major share in the server market, 
> and impacts other segments as well.  It's not something active that is 
> being done by free stuff or GPL.


But if something can be produced and distributed at no cost to the 
consumer, then how much was the product really worth in the first place? 
Not enough, surely, to put three men into the top 5 richest in the 
country!  It was just a lucky quirk of the market at the time that gave 
these guys the massive, massive wealth they have accumulated for their 
mediocre products.  It's ending now.

It isn't destroying anything.  It's just changing the way business is 
done.  If this isn't making multi-billionaire executives happy, I'm fine 
with that.  It creates a lot of opportunity for people with less money to 
start businesses that will make them a living but not a massive fortune. 
So, as the GPL advances, the proprietary model declines somewhat.  I 
happen to think that most developers are better off because of this but 
that is only an opinion and I don't have a lot of stats to back it up (but 
would like to hear good ones if anyone has them).  It seems obvious that 
consumers are better off.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 00:56:51 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 00:56:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

I had dinner with Richard M. Stallman (RMS) tonight.  He is an interesting 
and impressive person but also a very quirky character and somewhat 
argumentative.  I invited him and a few others to a nice restaurant 
downtown in Minneapolis.  RMS likes good food.

RMS makes lots of little jokes about words.  I ordered "nori encrusted 
sirloin w/ ponzu" and he a said "careful, it may be a 'ponzu scheme' and 
you'll have to get two of us to order it before they'll serve yours." 
Someone else at the table worked in microfinance and RMS said that 
"microfine ants must be really tiny ants."  He told me he had visited 
Tumbaco, Ecuador.  (My wife is Ecuadorean.)  He said "it's where they bury 
all the people who die from cigarette smoking."  I was surprised to hear 
that.  Then he told me it was a joke.  Tomb + tobacco = Tumbaco (that is 
how it is pronounced).  Doh!  I told my wife later and she thought it was 
kinda funny because it works in Spanish even better than in English (tumba 
= tomb & tobaco = tobacco, so it would be like Tombacco in English, just 
asking for a joke).  This is the guy who brought us GNU = GNU's Not UNIX, 
so I should have known there'd be silly wordplay at dinner.

Aside from the funny stuff, it was interesting to hear him talk about free 
software.  He says that proprietary software is unethical.  I need to hear 
more from him about ethics.  I've read a lot of his stuff but I don't 
understand why proprietary software is immoral, at least I don't 
understand it well enough to convince anyone else.  I know why I don't 
like it and why I want to avoid it, but that is based on years of bad 
experiences with it (and good experiences with free software), not on a 
philosophical argument.  He'll be giving a talk tonight (Tuesday) and I'll 
find out more there.

I asked him how he makes a living and he told me that all of his income 
comes from speaking engagements -- all of it.  I guess the FSF, book sales 
and software sales don't add up to much at all.

He's very politically aware.  Just after I ordered a Diet Coke, and it was 
too late to change my mind, he told me that Coca Cola has been hiring 
people to murder labor organizers in Colombia.  He directed me to this web 
page:

http://www.killercoke.org/

I haven't been able to study it yet and decide if I believe it, but he 
clearly believed it and he won't consume any Coca Cola products.

RMS travels often to many parts of the planet and knows people in many 
countries.  He is a very impressive guy, but I would be remiss and maybe a 
little biased if I didn't mention that he is really very socially 
maladroit at times.  There is no doubt that this is hindering his progress 
in promoting free software.  On the other hand, he is so extreme in his 
dedication that he accomplishes much more than anyone else despite his 
social limitations.  Maybe no one person can have everything at once.  It 
certainly seems that most computer geniuses and most extreme idealists 
have some problems getting along with others.  The price they pay?

Apparently, RMS doesn't say good-bye.  Instead, he closes with...

Happy Hacking!
Mike


From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 08:38:20 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 08:38:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810210838.22671.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Tuesday October 21 2008 00:56:51 Mike Miller wrote:
*snipped, but thanks for sharing! this was really interesting!*
> He's very politically aware.  Just after I ordered a Diet Coke, and it was
> too late to change my mind, he told me that Coca Cola has been hiring
> people to murder labor organizers in Colombia.  He directed me to this web
> page:
>
> http://www.killercoke.org/
>
> I haven't been able to study it yet and decide if I believe it, but he
> clearly believed it and he won't consume any Coca Cola products.

Totally true, and that website's a good place to start if you want to learn 
more. The Coca-Cola Company's killed more people than the Vietnam War.

-pete
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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 09:02:22 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 09:02:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
In-Reply-To: <200810210838.22671.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810210838.22671.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <bada98250810210702g3ee28712xa6096b944c898e91@mail.gmail.com>

I'll second that, did a research paper on Coke vs. Columbian unions a few
years back. Don't know about the stat comparing Coke to Vietnam though.

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:38 AM, p.daniels <carl1086 at morris.umn.edu> wrote:

>  On Tuesday October 21 2008 00:56:51 Mike Miller wrote:
>
> *snipped, but thanks for sharing! this was really interesting!*
>
> > He's very politically aware. Just after I ordered a Diet Coke, and it was
>
> > too late to change my mind, he told me that Coca Cola has been hiring
>
> > people to murder labor organizers in Colombia. He directed me to this web
>
> > page:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.killercoke.org/
>
> >
>
> > I haven't been able to study it yet and decide if I believe it, but he
>
> > clearly believed it and he won't consume any Coca Cola products.
>
> Totally true, and that website's a good place to start if you want to learn
> more. The Coca-Cola Company's killed more people than the Vietnam War.
>
> -pete
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Oct 21 10:28:15 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:28:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <049901c93391$a3b0d780$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 12:57 AM
To: TCLUG List
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman

> I asked him how he makes a living and he told me that all of his income 
> comes from speaking engagements -- all of it.  I guess the FSF, book sales

> and software sales don't add up to much at all.


I am not drawing any conclusions merely considering how this particular
point *may* correlate to his intentional sparking of
arguments/debates/whatevers to not only raise awareness of his efforts of
the FSF but perhaps just increase his speaking engagement attendance and
therefore his income. Perhaps I am completely wrong but really only he
himself can really know the truth to this speculation.

In any case it's good to see that you are trying to be objective of your
encounter with him and I enjoyed your summary.

With regards to the Coke murders, it seems (maybe I am overly cynical) most
major international corporations/companies are doing evil deeds in one way
or another in the foreign countries they operate in: murder, child labor,
slave labor, pathetic wages for workers, etc. We have the diamond companies,
the oil companies, the shoe companies, the soft drink companies, the
clothing companies, the candy companies (see Nestle Boycott), etc. Not to
mention the "white collar" crimes many are committing.

Well sorry for the massive digression into OT land....

To quote an OpenBSD motto it is time for me to "shut up and hack!"



From stuff at cb1inc.com  Tue Oct 21 10:38:11 2008
From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 10:38:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
In-Reply-To: <200810210838.22671.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810210838.22671.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48FDF763.10604@cb1inc.com>

I'm just glad there isn't a www.killerstarbucks.org. :)


p.daniels wrote:
>
> On Tuesday October 21 2008 00:56:51 Mike Miller wrote:
>
> *snipped, but thanks for sharing! this was really interesting!*
>
> > He's very politically aware. Just after I ordered a Diet Coke, and
> it was
>
> > too late to change my mind, he told me that Coca Cola has been hiring
>
> > people to murder labor organizers in Colombia. He directed me to
> this web
>
> > page:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.killercoke.org/
>
> >
>
> > I haven't been able to study it yet and decide if I believe it, but he
>
> > clearly believed it and he won't consume any Coca Cola products.
>
> Totally true, and that website's a good place to start if you want to
> learn more. The Coca-Cola Company's killed more people than the
> Vietnam War.
>
> -pete
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

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From haircut at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 11:13:05 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:13:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 00:56 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> I had dinner with Richard M. Stallman (RMS) tonight.  He is an interesting 
> and impressive person but also a very quirky character and somewhat 
> argumentative.

Agreed. He is extremely pedantic and unrelenting in his search for truth
and justice through logic--damn the torpedoes. Seems like he only
fulfills the bare minimum social grace requirement. I guess I was
prepared for that, so it didn't really surprise me. He's apt to argue
with anything!

That said, I still can't help but be inspired by him... I think he has
found some truth and logic and contradicts conventional wisdom.

> Aside from the funny stuff, it was interesting to hear him talk about free 
> software.  He says that proprietary software is unethical.  I need to hear 
> more from him about ethics.  I've read a lot of his stuff but I don't 
> understand why proprietary software is immoral, at least I don't 
> understand it well enough to convince anyone else.  

I interpret the unethical part to be "proprietary software robs us of
our freedoms". That's unethical, right?

If you buy an iPhone, you agree to let Apple lock you into their
software because of the Digital Restrictions Management stuff on the
phone. You cannot do whatever you want with that iPhone. That's
unethical, right? If I buy hardware, I should be able to run whatever I
want on it.

> I know why I don't 
> like it and why I want to avoid it, but that is based on years of bad 
> experiences with it (and good experiences with free software), not on a 
> philosophical argument. 

Agreed, this is why I use Free? Software, too! I feel like "they already
thought of everything", and the GNU utilities and GNU C library are
quite excellent implementations. Fast, well documented, simple, useful.
They run on any hardware.

Non-Free? software is often more convenient... I think most people
*don't* care that proprietary software "robs us of our freedoms", and
just want to get done whatever they're doing on a computer as fast as
possible. Non-Free? software is also marketed much more heavily.

So, how do I convince someone that they must care about their freedoms?

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 21 11:35:22 2008
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 11:35:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
In-Reply-To: <1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGAEFECMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Adam Monsen
> Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 11:13 AM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 00:56 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > I had dinner with Richard M. Stallman (RMS) tonight.  He is an interesting 
> > and impressive person but also a very quirky character and somewhat 
> > argumentative.
> 
> 
> So, how do I convince someone that they must care about their freedoms?
> 


Flog their ears unmercifully?   :-)    Or just set a good example and share.



Chuck



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 14:18:55 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:18:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] dinner with Stallman
In-Reply-To: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGAEFECMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <JHEAJICPPADJEPOKEGDGAEFECMAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211159130.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Chuck Cole wrote:

>> So, how do I convince someone that they must care about their freedoms?
>
> Flog their ears unmercifully?  :-)  Or just set a good example and 
> share.


Stallman said several times last night that setting a good example is the 
important thing.  He does get paid to speak and I ask him to tell me 
things, so I don't find his writing and speaking to be unmerciful flogging 
of my ears -- it's something I want and am willing to pay him for.  In 
effect, by buying him his dinner, we were paying him to talk to us about 
free software.

Mike


From tclug at jfoo.org  Tue Oct 21 14:24:43 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:24:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seeing Stallman tomorrow?
In-Reply-To: <20081020115520.8c49650c.tclug@jfoo.org>
References: <20081020093731.67cb6d02.tclug@jfoo.org>
	<20081020162716.GG3369@iris.iucha.org>
	<20081020115520.8c49650c.tclug@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <20081021142443.ec07e3a7.tclug@jfoo.org>

On Mon, 20 Oct 2008 11:55:20 -0500
John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:

> > On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 09:37:31AM -0500, John Gateley wrote:
> > > Anyone going? Going for beer at Townhall after?
> > > With all the hullaballoo, I'm not sure what happened
> > > to the plans.
> 
> How should we find each other at Townhall?

I'll be at the talk about 6:15 or 6:20 if anyone wants to
meet up beforehand.

I'm heading straight to Townhall after, I don't have any
penguin stuff, but I'll be the tallish guy with jeans and
a long sleeve dark blue shirt there in the bar area.

Hope to meet some of y'all...

j
-- 
John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org>


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 14:43:16 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 14:43:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Adam Monsen wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 00:56 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Aside from the funny stuff, it was interesting to hear him talk about 
>> free software.  He says that proprietary software is unethical.  I need 
>> to hear more from him about ethics.  I've read a lot of his stuff but I 
>> don't understand why proprietary software is immoral, at least I don't 
>> understand it well enough to convince anyone else.
>
> I interpret the unethical part to be "proprietary software robs us of 
> our freedoms". That's unethical, right?

Playing devil's advocate:  We are free not to buy it, and if we buy it we 
agree to the terms, so what freedom is taken from us?


> If you buy an iPhone, you agree to let Apple lock you into their 
> software because of the Digital Restrictions Management stuff on the 
> phone. You cannot do whatever you want with that iPhone. That's 
> unethical, right? If I buy hardware, I should be able to run whatever I 
> want on it.

More devil's advocate:  What is unethical?  Is it the purchase or the 
sale?  Or both?  The thing is, Apple decides pricing based on expected use 
of the product.  When Apple's software is used on the iPhone, Apple 
expects to get something in return for that, say, via their online stores. 
There is also some agreement with AT&T.  Obviously Apple has a reason and 
it has to do with their revenue stream.  Because they can make money from 
users, they can charge them less up front.  Is this an unethical system? 
Isn't it the same kind of thing as agreeing to buy a year of cable service 
to get a free DVR?


>> I know why I don't like it and why I want to avoid it, but that is 
>> based on years of bad experiences with it (and good experiences with 
>> free software), not on a philosophical argument.
>
> Agreed, this is why I use Free? Software, too! I feel like "they already 
> thought of everything", and the GNU utilities and GNU C library are 
> quite excellent implementations. Fast, well documented, simple, useful. 
> They run on any hardware.
>
> Non-Free? software is often more convenient... I think most people 
> *don't* care that proprietary software "robs us of our freedoms", and 
> just want to get done whatever they're doing on a computer as fast as 
> possible. Non-Free? software is also marketed much more heavily.
>
> So, how do I convince someone that they must care about their freedoms?


Let's take Irfanview for example...

http://www.irfanview.com/

It's a nice little image viewer that I use on Windows computers.  What is 
unethical about using Irfanview?  It is easy to use and I like it.  I know 
that I don't have source, I can't therefore modify and distribute source, 
it obviously doesn't have a GPL-compatible license.  What is unethical 
about using it?  Am I behaving unethically, or is the developer behaving 
unethically, or both?  If there is something unethical about using 
Irfanview, I would think that implies that someone is being harmed.  Who 
is harmed by Irfanview or by my use of Irfanview?

I don't like to use Windows computers but it is often necessary.

Mike

From tompoe at fngi.net  Tue Oct 21 15:25:57 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:25:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>

Mike Miller wrote:
> - - - snip - - -
> Let's take Irfanview for example...
>
> http://www.irfanview.com/
>
> It's a nice little image viewer that I use on Windows computers.  What 
> is unethical about using Irfanview?  It is easy to use and I like it.  
> I know that I don't have source, I can't therefore modify and 
> distribute source, it obviously doesn't have a GPL-compatible 
> license.  What is unethical about using it?  Am I behaving 
> unethically, or is the developer behaving unethically, or both?  If 
> there is something unethical about using Irfanview, I would think that 
> implies that someone is being harmed.  Who is harmed by Irfanview or 
> by my use of Irfanview?
>
> I don't like to use Windows computers but it is often necessary.
>
> Mike
If a government web site won't allow access, unless users use a 
particular software, is that unethical?  If a school won't allow 
students access, unless they use a particular software, is that 
unethical?  I think the ethics issue is one of whether it's appropriate 
to restrict access to digital telecommunications in a world largely 
dependent on software.  RMS saw the dilemma decades ago, but it surely 
is sitting on our faces, now. 

If I may, it's interesting that in the world, today, in the heat of our 
worldwide financial crisis, there is a bank that seems to be doing just 
fine, thank you.  The founder was awarded a Nobel Prize for the work he 
did with Grameen Bank.  He calls the underlying premise, social 
entrepreneurship.  It requires all businesses to include a non-profit 
division.  The for-profit side can sell all they want, and make profits 
for shareholders, and the non-profit side works to make the products 
available to the poor and disadvantaged, giving access to all.
Tom


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 15:41:51 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:41:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Tom Poe wrote:

> If a government web site won't allow access, unless users use a 
> particular software, is that unethical?  If a school won't allow 
> students access, unless they use a particular software, is that 
> unethical?

I don't know.  Why isn't it just stupid instead of unethical?  If 
something is unethical within some philosophical system, you should be 
able to show the logical steps from premises to conclusions.


> I think the ethics issue is one of whether it's appropriate to restrict 
> access to digital telecommunications in a world largely dependent on 
> software.

That may be one area for ethical analysis, but the question we are now 
considering (as suggested by the subject line and earlier questions) is 
whether it proprietary software is immoral.  That software might have 
nothing to do with telecommunications.


> If I may, it's interesting that in the world, today, in the heat of our 
> worldwide financial crisis, there is a bank that seems to be doing just 
> fine, thank you.  The founder was awarded a Nobel Prize for the work he 
> did with Grameen Bank.  He calls the underlying premise, social 
> entrepreneurship.  It requires all businesses to include a non-profit 
> division.  The for-profit side can sell all they want, and make profits 
> for shareholders, and the non-profit side works to make the products 
> available to the poor and disadvantaged, giving access to all.

Is that related to proprietary v. free software in some way?

Mike


From tompoe at fngi.net  Tue Oct 21 15:54:44 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 15:54:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>

Mike Miller wrote:
- - - snip - - -

Telecommunications covers a whole range of software, and I tend to think 
of any software as participating at some level of telecommunications.    
It's an assumption I might have expressed at the beginning of my response.

I thought your question about the relevance of my reference to social 
entrepreneurship was a good point.

Suppose we lived in a world where social entrepreneurship was the norm.  
All businesses had a non-profit division.  What then would we see with 
companies like Microsoft?  Would their products look any different?  
Would we see more interoperability?  Could Microsoft make a contribution 
to society through their non-profit work?  And, would they still insist 
on a closed, proprietary approach to their business model?  My guess is 
no.  What's yours?
Tom


From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 16:04:41 2008
From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (benjamin gramlich)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:04:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>

> So, how do I convince someone that they must care about their
freedoms?
> 

I think it's difficult to make the case that free software helps to
preserve our personal freedom. Free software really only benefits those
who have the knowledge to make use of the access to source code. Much
like the hood on a car only benefits those who know how to fix the
engine. An option is only beneficial insofar as an individual is able to
exercise it. If I have no idea how to read source code or how to tailor
it to my needs, the freedom has no effect on me. I like free software
because I love to tinker, not because I am not enslaved to Microsoft.

Stallman's arguments are sophistry, dependent upon a world view that
extends only to the end of the make file. It seems to bother Stallman
more that people choose to use proprietary software even though it is
still a choice.

The true threat to my freedom is my dependence upon another's generosity
for my employment and thus my livelihood. Or illegal wire tapping. Or
gerrymandering.

bg




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 16:08:17 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:08:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Tom Poe wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
> - - - snip - - -

Mike Miller wrote "snip"?


> Telecommunications covers a whole range of software, and I tend to think 
> of any software as participating at some level of telecommunications. 
> It's an assumption I might have expressed at the beginning of my 
> response.

But you are wrong.  Software can do anything and telecommunications is 
just one small area for software application.


> I thought your question about the relevance of my reference to social 
> entrepreneurship was a good point.
>
> Suppose we lived in a world where social entrepreneurship was the norm.

What is "social entrepeneurship?"

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Tue Oct 21 16:17:07 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:17:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net> <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
Message-ID: <20081021211706.GQ3369@iris.iucha.org>

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 04:04:41PM -0500, benjamin gramlich wrote:
> > So, how do I convince someone that they must care about their
> > freedoms?
> 
> I think it's difficult to make the case that free software helps to
> preserve our personal freedom. Free software really only benefits those
> who have the knowledge to make use of the access to source code. Much
> like the hood on a car only benefits those who know how to fix the
> engine.

Wrong car analogy.  If I have access to an engine, I might be able to
learn how it works, by experimentation, or by having a friend help me.
If it is welded shut then I cannot.

[Also if I have the key to my hood I can take the car to any mechanic that
I trust.  I don't have to go to a "manufacturer approved" maintenance
facility that will charge exorbitant fees.]

>         An option is only beneficial insofar as an individual is able to
> exercise it.

_willing_, not able (I am excluding physical and psychic disabilities,
as this was not your meaning.)

>              If I have no idea how to read source code or how to tailor
> it to my needs, the freedom has no effect on me.

Yes, it does - you can learn, if you want.

>                                                   I like free software
> because I love to tinker, not because I am not enslaved to Microsoft.
> 
> Stallman's arguments are sophistry, dependent upon a world view that
> extends only to the end of the make file. It seems to bother Stallman
> more that people choose to use proprietary software even though it is
> still a choice.

Stallman's arguments are a point of view taken to extreme, but it is
not sophistry.  His world view is utopian, but so was abolition of
slavery or women's rights at some points in the history of mankind.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tompoe at fngi.net  Tue Oct 21 16:13:00 2008
From: tompoe at fngi.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:13:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Tom Poe wrote:
>
>> Mike Miller wrote:
>> - - - snip - - -
>
> Mike Miller wrote "snip"?
>
>
>> Telecommunications covers a whole range of software, and I tend to 
>> think of any software as participating at some level of 
>> telecommunications. It's an assumption I might have expressed at the 
>> beginning of my response.
>
> But you are wrong.  Software can do anything and telecommunications is 
> just one small area for software application.
>
>
>> I thought your question about the relevance of my reference to social 
>> entrepreneurship was a good point.
>>
>> Suppose we lived in a world where social entrepreneurship was the norm.
>
> What is "social entrepeneurship?"
>
> Mike
>
Wikipedia covers it nicely.  Type in the keywords, social 
entrepreneurship wikipedia, into your favorite search engine.  Well 
worth a couple minutes to check it out.

Well, I'll object to your "wrong" label.  I can't think of one 
application meant to do something other than communicate.  We could 
possibly discuss how far the transmission has to go to be 
telecommunicated.  Are you thinking about a particular application that 
doesn't participate in communication, or telecommunication?
Tom


From trnja001 at umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 16:30:50 2008
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:30:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net>
Message-ID: <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>

I was under the impression that non-free software was immoral because 
anything that takes away your rights is considered immoral. Doesn't 
matter if you agree to it, it's just a matter-of-fact.

Is that not so?


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 16:42:28 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:42:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
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Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211640270.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Tom Poe wrote:

> Well, I'll object to your "wrong" label.  I can't think of one 
> application meant to do something other than communicate.  We could 
> possibly discuss how far the transmission has to go to be 
> telecommunicated.  Are you thinking about a particular application that 
> doesn't participate in communication, or telecommunication?

If I look at an image in Irfanview, am I telecommunicating.  I say no.  If 
you define telecommunicating to be anything that anyone does with a 
computer, then it doesn't have much meaning to me and the meaning is 
certainly different than what I have heard in the past.

You have been boring and way off topic so I'm done bothering with you now.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 16:44:48 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:44:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
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	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net> <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:

> I was under the impression that non-free software was immoral because 
> anything that takes away your rights is considered immoral. Doesn't 
> matter if you agree to it, it's just a matter-of-fact.
>
> Is that not so?


Then copyright is immoral, right?  If I write a book, and someone buys it, 
he has implicitly agreed to the copyright terms and the law will come down 
hard on him if he starts making copies and selling them.  But without the 
protection of copyright law, I think the consumer will not be getting the 
kind of quality books to read that he has today.

Mike


From sloncho at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 16:53:25 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:53:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net> <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810211453y8096216pcba42146e2cd636@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 4:44 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
>
>> I was under the impression that non-free software was immoral because
>> anything that takes away your rights is considered immoral. Doesn't
>> matter if you agree to it, it's just a matter-of-fact.
>>
>> Is that not so?
>
>
> Then copyright is immoral, right?  If I write a book, and someone buys it,
> he has implicitly agreed to the copyright terms and the law will come down
> hard on him if he starts making copies and selling them.  But without the
> protection of copyright law, I think the consumer will not be getting the
> kind of quality books to read that he has today.
>

This is bad analogy (copyright for books) - as you do not use books as
productive tools - you use the knowledge in them. And there is pretty
good protection about this (fair use). Also, you can modify, copy,
make notes on the book etc.

It's not the same with software - and I guess you know this, but you
try to play "second" devil's advocate :)

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 17:03:04 2008
From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (benjamin gramlich)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:03:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <20081021211706.GQ3369@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net> <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
	<20081021211706.GQ3369@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <1224626584.7556.24.camel@PlanetExpress>

> Wrong car analogy.  If I have access to an engine, I might be able to
> learn how it works, by experimentation, or by having a friend help me.
> If it is welded shut then I cannot.

But have you? This isn't an attack against you (I haven't opened the
hood of my car for years). But the freedom to open my car doesn't really
matter to me because once I do open it I don't know what to do with it.
And right now it's not a matter of willingness to learn. I would need to
invest in tools and a place to work on my vehicle.

> [Also if I have the key to my hood I can take the car to any mechanic that
> I trust.  I don't have to go to a "manufacturer approved" maintenance
> facility that will charge exorbitant fees.]

It's wrong to assume that just because it's 'manufacturer approved' the
fees will be exorbitant. I find the car dealership to be the most cost
effective solution for my vehicle (I've compared prices), plus they
don't try to frighten me into additional repairs. 

> _willing_, not able (I am excluding physical and psychic disabilities,
> as this was not your meaning.)
> 
No, I meant able. As in having the requisite skill. There are things
that I am more than willing to do but which I am prevented from by lack
of skill (i.e. singing, playing piano). Additionally, learning to
harness the power of software demands an incredible investment of time
and energy. Many people are not able learn. Many people don't have the
time, the discipline, the mental aptitude, the knowledge, or the support
system necessary to undertake such a venture.


> Stallman's arguments are a point of view taken to extreme, but it is
> not sophistry.  His world view is utopian, but so was abolition of
> slavery or women's rights at some points in the history of mankind.

His views are sophist in that he's trying to convince us to use his
software by trying to convince us that our freedom is at stake unless we
do. He wants to protect our freedom to do what we want with software,
but if we want to use Windows, OS X, or even an ATI Driver in linux he
claims we sacrifice our freedom.

bg



From florin at iucha.net  Tue Oct 21 17:09:43 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:09:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net> <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081021220943.GR3369@iris.iucha.org>

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 04:44:48PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> 
> > I was under the impression that non-free software was immoral because 
> > anything that takes away your rights is considered immoral. Doesn't 
> > matter if you agree to it, it's just a matter-of-fact.
> >
> > Is that not so?

Not necessarily: we agreed to take away people's rights to punch one
another willy-nilly, but we don't find this restriction immoral.

> Then copyright is immoral, right?

It depends.

   Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
   of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
   being shared.
      -- Buddha

or

   For if a thing is not diminished by being shared with others, it
   is not rightly owned if it is only owned and not shared.
      -- St. (Aurelius) Augustinus

>                                   If I write a book, and someone buys it, 
> he has implicitly agreed to the copyright terms and the law will come down 
> hard on him if he starts making copies and selling them.

OK.

>                                                           But without the 
> protection of copyright law, I think the consumer will not be getting the 
> kind of quality books to read that he has today.

I cannot say if you wrote that seriously or not.  For one, the concept of
copyright is quite recent (200 years or so) and originated in the desire
of the authorities to control the printing press, in order to control
the spread of 'destabilizing' ideas.  The pact of the publishers with
the authorities allowed them to become the rich middle man that they
are today, so they can buy new extensions of the concept.  But books
and other artistic forms of expression exist from way before that, and
continue to enchant us (all the dramas and movie plots can be traced to
the ancient Greeks, we just keep changing the costumes).  And there is
no mention of copyright in the 4000 years of recorded history (before
1700s).

Regarding the actual 'quality' of things that 'consumers' are getting,
we should be really starting another thread, maybe in another forum.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com  Tue Oct 21 17:20:58 2008
From: benjamin.gramlich at gmail.com (benjamin gramlich)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:20:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
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	<48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net> <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1224627659.7556.42.camel@PlanetExpress>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 16:44 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> 
> > I was under the impression that non-free software was immoral because 
> > anything that takes away your rights is considered immoral. Doesn't 
> > matter if you agree to it, it's just a matter-of-fact.
> >
> > Is that not so?
> 

But non-free software doesn't take away your rights. It just protects
the rights of others (the same rights you have when you write software,
or a novel, or paint a picture). Software is speech, it is treated by
the law as speech, and it comes under the same protection as speech.
I've yet to read or hear any argument as to how my rights are violated
by the use of closed source software. Saying so is like saying that
listening to Pink Floyd's The Wall takes away my rights because I can't
claim it as my own or play their music on my own recording. If you do
not agree to the terms of the EULA then you have the FREEDOM to not use
the product.

Cheers,

benjamin



From trnja001 at umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 17:26:44 2008
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:26:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <20081021220943.GR3369@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net>
	<48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211643110.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081021220943.GR3369@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <48FE5724.4030909@umn.edu>

Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 04:44:48PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>   
>> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I was under the impression that non-free software was immoral because 
>>> anything that takes away your rights is considered immoral. Doesn't 
>>> matter if you agree to it, it's just a matter-of-fact.
>>>
>>> Is that not so?
>>>       
>
> Not necessarily: we agreed to take away people's rights to punch one
> another willy-nilly, but we don't find this restriction immoral.
>
>   
You could argue that you are given freedom from assault. I always 
assumed that freedom is defined with positive rights, otherwise 
treacherous tyrants might brag that their subjects have the freedom to 
be executed at the will of the state.
>> Then copyright is immoral, right?
>>     
>
> It depends.
>
>    Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life
>    of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by
>    being shared.
>       -- Buddha
>
> or
>
>    For if a thing is not diminished by being shared with others, it
>    is not rightly owned if it is only owned and not shared.
>       -- St. (Aurelius) Augustinus
>   

> benjamin gramlich wrote:
> But non-free software doesn't take away your rights. It just protects
> the rights of others (the same rights you have when you write software,
> or a novel, or paint a picture). Software is speech, it is treated by
> the law as speech, and it comes under the same protection as speech.
> I've yet to read or hear any argument as to how my rights are violated
> by the use of closed source software. Saying so is like saying that
> listening to Pink Floyd's The Wall takes away my rights because I can't
> claim it as my own or play their music on my own recording. If you do
> not agree to the terms of the EULA then you have the FREEDOM to not use
> the product.

Freedom is a double edged sword since giving one person freedom takes it 
away from another, which is a circular definition concluding that 
freedom and propriety are both immoral.


From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Tue Oct 21 21:45:31 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 21:45:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
Message-ID: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

So most of you are probably out drinking. Damn my poverty.

Anyway, I enjoyed the talk, although having read much of his work previously, 
it was certainly nothing new or groundbreaking to me. But it was enjoyable 
nonetheless.

A question that I walked away with actually stemed from the Q&A after the main 
lecture. Someone brought up a question regarding perceived incompatibility 
between free software and regulated industries (in this example, medical 
device software). Although I thought RMS was slightly brusque in his reply, I 
would be inclined to agree with his rebuttal (the crux of which was "what do 
those things have to do with each other and why should they conflict at all?"). 
However, I'll readily admit that my knowledge of this field is completely non-
existent, and if anyone could perhaps shed a little more light on this topic 
for me, I'd greatly appreciate it. I know it's asking too much of my luck that 
the original questioner would be on this list, maybe someone else could 
explain this in a little more depth.

Oh, and uh... First Post ;)

-pete
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From tclug at jfoo.org  Tue Oct 21 22:22:07 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:22:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>

p.daniels wrote:
> So most of you are probably out drinking. Damn my poverty.

I didn't see anyone else at Townhall. I had a nice Octoberfest
and a blueberry oatmeal pale though.

> A question that I walked away with actually stemed from the Q&A after 
> the main lecture. Someone brought up a question regarding perceived 
> incompatibility between free software and regulated industries (in this 
> example, medical device software).

I didn't stay once they began auctioning the gnu, but I was interested
in this question. I think it is a broader question: what about any
software, such as medical or the software that controls your car, where
there is a cost to failure. He was quite adamant throughout his talk
about not using ANY software that wasn't free, and I would have been
interested in his comments on this.

I was disappointed in his painting things black or white. He was quite
harsh on proprietary software developers: they were a single person who
developed software as a power trip for controlling their users, and
there is no way to communicate with them (to get features added).

I was a proprietary software developer for the past 13 years, and I
don't think he got a single thing right. I was part of a team, we did
it to make money, but also because it was a cool product (J. River
Media Center), and we had a support forum where we - the developers -
interacted directly with users, taking ideas and sometimes implementing
them.

It was interesting - especially the number of people who raised
their hands for programming in TECO.

j


From rbrown at rawmindz.com  Tue Oct 21 22:39:09 2008
From: rbrown at rawmindz.com (Robert Brown)
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:39:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>

We needed to have worn our TCGLUG hats.  My buddy Joe and I were
there.  After we had already sat down at Townhall, we were pretty sure
we spotted some geeks walk in.

I too left at auction time.  Too bad he took so long.  I was really
glad to hear him speak about copyleft and patent law.  Despite the
solipsisms and the weak arguments, I find there's a fair amount of
commonality with his theories on freedom and software and the problems
of intellectual property and copyright.  What I'm curious about is
whether he can see these commonalities and what he has to say about
that.  Is it all about software?

On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:22 PM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:
> p.daniels wrote:
>> So most of you are probably out drinking. Damn my poverty.
>
> I didn't see anyone else at Townhall. I had a nice Octoberfest
> and a blueberry oatmeal pale though.
>
>> A question that I walked away with actually stemed from the Q&A after
>> the main lecture. Someone brought up a question regarding perceived
>> incompatibility between free software and regulated industries (in this
>> example, medical device software).
>
> I didn't stay once they began auctioning the gnu, but I was interested
> in this question. I think it is a broader question: what about any
> software, such as medical or the software that controls your car, where
> there is a cost to failure. He was quite adamant throughout his talk
> about not using ANY software that wasn't free, and I would have been
> interested in his comments on this.
>
> I was disappointed in his painting things black or white. He was quite
> harsh on proprietary software developers: they were a single person who
> developed software as a power trip for controlling their users, and
> there is no way to communicate with them (to get features added).
>
> I was a proprietary software developer for the past 13 years, and I
> don't think he got a single thing right. I was part of a team, we did
> it to make money, but also because it was a cool product (J. River
> Media Center), and we had a support forum where we - the developers -
> interacted directly with users, taking ideas and sometimes implementing
> them.
>
> It was interesting - especially the number of people who raised
> their hands for programming in TECO.
>
> j
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From josh at radkeland.org  Wed Oct 22 08:37:06 2008
From: josh at radkeland.org (Joshua Radke)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 08:37:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
	<916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>

Impressions from the lecture; followed by comments:

I've read tons of philosophical summaries from the FSF, the Open Source 
Initiative, and various other sources, which left me a bit confused.  I 
was most impressed with Richard Stallman's clarity, and would recommend 
one of his talks to anybody interested in understanding the FSF's position.

With regards to freedom, ethics,  and software, the conclusion I drew 
from last night's presentation is that one must accept that the four 
fundamental freedoms (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) are 
(or ought to be, for you) inalienable rights.  If one accepts that these 
are inalienable rights (see http://bostonreview.net/BR24.2/waldron.html, 
second paragraph for a good discussion of what this means), then the 
rest of his conclusions are just ... truths.  I suspect that many of 
those who take issue with the FSFs philosophy simply don't accept that 
they ought to have these rights, in which case the rest of the arguments 
fall flat.

It was also enlightening to have copyleft explicitly separated from free 
software; specifically, copyleft is a feature of the GPL (and some other 
licences) that restricts (my own word) the freedom of a distributor of 
the software in order to preserve the greater freedom.  Software need 
not be copyleft'd to be free, it's just a nice feature.

Robert Brown wrote:
> We needed to have worn our TCGLUG hats.  My buddy Joe and I were
> there.  After we had already sat down at Townhall, we were pretty sure
> we spotted some geeks walk in.

I don't have one ... where can they be acquired?

> I too left at auction time.  Too bad he took so long.  I was really
> glad to hear him speak about copyleft and patent law.  Despite the
> solipsisms and the weak arguments, I find there's a fair amount of
> commonality with his theories on freedom and software and the problems
> of intellectual property and copyright.  What I'm curious about is
> whether he can see these commonalities and what he has to say about
> that.  Is it all about software?
> 
> On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 10:22 PM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:
>> p.daniels wrote:
>>> So most of you are probably out drinking. Damn my poverty.
>> I didn't see anyone else at Townhall. I had a nice Octoberfest
>> and a blueberry oatmeal pale though.
>>
>>> A question that I walked away with actually stemed from the Q&A after
>>> the main lecture. Someone brought up a question regarding perceived
>>> incompatibility between free software and regulated industries (in this
>>> example, medical device software).
>> I didn't stay once they began auctioning the gnu, but I was interested
>> in this question. I think it is a broader question: what about any
>> software, such as medical or the software that controls your car, where
>> there is a cost to failure. He was quite adamant throughout his talk
>> about not using ANY software that wasn't free, and I would have been
>> interested in his comments on this.

I agree that his answers were brusque, and felt it was a symptom of his 
clarity.  The question about regulated industries and risk was kind of 
dismissed by Stallman, as he didn't see it as relevant to his core 
topic.  I think it's easy to address, however (I work closely with 
regulatory affairs in a cGMP FDA regulated company).  The questioner 
asked something about how buying proprietary software transfers some of 
the risk to the supplier.  The perception of risk transference is 
attractive to management, but does not absolve the purchaser of risk, 
unless it is explicitly provided by contract (i.e., the proprietary 
software provider clearly assumes certain risks in the contract.  Most 
licenses explicitly absolve the proprietary software provider of risks.) 
  If a company wanted to use free software for this application, their 
requirement would be to establish quality control (QC), and to 
optionally manage their risk by purchasing specific insurance (which 
would of course be more affordable if good QC purchases are in place).

His comments on device software were interesting.  I especially liked 
his statement that if it's a computer, meant for using and customizing 
software, than the ideas of freedom apply.  If you can't tell if it's 
got a computer, or if the logic is deployed in circuits, he doesn't care 
about freedom.  It was interesting that he also said he wouldn't take a 
pacemaker that wasn't running free software ...

I think the answer to the broader question lies largely around the same 
ideas of transference of risk outlined above.  Generally, proprietary 
software licenses legally absolve the supplier of risk, in which case 
the purchases must assume that risk (or try to change the terms of the 
license in court, after the fact).

>> I was disappointed in his painting things black or white. He was quite
>> harsh on proprietary software developers: they were a single person who
>> developed software as a power trip for controlling their users, and
>> there is no way to communicate with them (to get features added).
>>
>> I was a proprietary software developer for the past 13 years, and I
>> don't think he got a single thing right. I was part of a team, we did
>> it to make money, but also because it was a cool product (J. River
>> Media Center), and we had a support forum where we - the developers -
>> interacted directly with users, taking ideas and sometimes implementing
>> them.

I don't believe that harsh and mean were intended at all, though his 
manner may lead one to believe that.  As outlined in the beginning, his 
talk was about the definition of "free software".  Acceptance of the 
four fundamental freedoms is the beginning of all of the ethical arguments.

He even addressed this (obliquely) when asked about 'defensive patents' 
as being used by Redhat.  The concept was that defensive patents are 
fine, but only if they are written in contract such that they can only 
be used defensively, in perpetuity.

I believe he may describe the J. River Media Center example as an 
illustration of a benevolent dictatorship.  While this is better than a 
sinister dictatorship, it is still distasteful to his sensibilities. 
His judgment is on the form of government, not the governors. (again my 
take on Stallman).

>> It was interesting - especially the number of people who raised
>> their hands for programming in TECO.
>>
>> j



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:03:16 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:03:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
	<916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810220955210.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Joshua Radke wrote:

> I've read tons of philosophical summaries from the FSF, the Open Source 
> Initiative, and various other sources, which left me a bit confused.  I 
> was most impressed with Richard Stallman's clarity, and would recommend 
> one of his talks to anybody interested in understanding the FSF's 
> position.


Stallman had no notes and no slides, but he spoke for about two hours and 
I don't think he said "umm" even once.  It was pretty amazing if you think 
about it.  It was so well organized that a transcript could probably be 
published as a book chapter with almost no editing.  He obviously gets a 
lot of practice!

I took a lot of notes (almost 6 pages) and wrote down some verbatim 
quotes.  I'll post a long summary of the talk and quotes later.

I was glad that I wrote down the "four freedoms" (0 through 3) when he 
first listed them because he later referred to them almost entirely by 
number (as if we would remember!).

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:07:14 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:07:14 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211537160.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE4194.9090609@fngi.net>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211605470.27509@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE45DC.8050108@fngi.net> <48FE4A0A.8070704@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221003440.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:

> I was under the impression that non-free software was immoral because 
> anything that takes away your rights is considered immoral. Doesn't 
> matter if you agree to it, it's just a matter-of-fact.
>
> Is that not so?


Now that I've seen his talk, I can tell you that his moral focus is on the 
developers, not on the customers.  I'm sure he thinks that it is morally 
superior to promote free software by using it, but the bigger moral issue 
is with the licenser, not the licensee.

So yes, I think you are right.  It is also good not to agree to have your 
rights taken away.  But he did say, emphatically, that it is better to 
violate the license by giving copies to friends who request them than to 
honor the license that you shouldn't have agreed to in the first place.

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:10:53 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:10:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221010190.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, p.daniels wrote:

> Oh, and uh... First Post ;)

Poverty and social deprivation have their rewards!

Mike


From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:14:02 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:14:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
Message-ID: <200810221014.02983.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Wednesday October 22 2008 08:37:06 am Joshua Radke wrote:
> Impressions from the lecture; followed by comments:
>
> I've read tons of philosophical summaries from the FSF, the Open Source
> Initiative, and various other sources, which left me a bit confused.  I
> was most impressed with Richard Stallman's clarity, and would recommend
> one of his talks to anybody interested in understanding the FSF's position.
>
> With regards to freedom, ethics,  and software, the conclusion I drew
> from last night's presentation is that one must accept that the four
> fundamental freedoms (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html) are
> (or ought to be, for you) inalienable rights.  If one accepts that these
> are inalienable rights (see http://bostonreview.net/BR24.2/waldron.html,
> second paragraph for a good discussion of what this means), then the
> rest of his conclusions are just ... truths.  I suspect that many of
> those who take issue with the FSFs philosophy simply don't accept that
> they ought to have these rights, in which case the rest of the arguments
> fall flat.

I agree wholeheartedly.

> His comments on device software were interesting.  I especially liked
> his statement that if it's a computer, meant for using and customizing
> software, than the ideas of freedom apply.  If you can't tell if it's
> got a computer, or if the logic is deployed in circuits, he doesn't care
> about freedom.  It was interesting that he also said he wouldn't take a
> pacemaker that wasn't running free software ...

I must say, I found contradiction in this. After making such a point about 
non-free software in DVD players particularly (which to me is in no way a 
computer), how could one then claim that the freedom to modify the software 
inside one's (presumably fairly advanced, if we're talking about acquiring the 
source code to it) television is somehow less relevant?

I did, however, find the "pacemaker" comment to be brilliant.

-p.
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From sloncho at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 10:13:17 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:13:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810220955210.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
	<916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810220955210.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810220813y76586299uff1bf3cdaea35d34@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
>
> Stallman had no notes and no slides, but he spoke for about two hours and
> I don't think he said "umm" even once.  It was pretty amazing if you think

Some time ago I watch another speech about copyright and DRM. Really impressive:
http://www.archive.org/details/copyrightvscommunity_stallman


-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From haircut at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 10:14:52 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:14:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <1224626584.7556.24.camel@PlanetExpress>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net> <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
	<20081021211706.GQ3369@iris.iucha.org>
	<1224626584.7556.24.camel@PlanetExpress>
Message-ID: <1224688492.9172.23.camel@localhost>

On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 17:03 -0500, benjamin gramlich wrote:
> But have you?

This is irrelevant. The question is, do you have the ability to? If not,
you might be locked into using a particular mechanic.

Arguments about details, convenience, monetary cost etc. all miss the
point. If we're trying to figure out if non-Free software is immoral, we
should focus on discussing the "four
freedoms" ( http://gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html ). RMS considers
these inalienable rights.

Skype is convenient, free VoIP software. But how does Skype encryption
work? Maybe Skype is not evil, but what if Skype is bought by someone
more evil?

On the other hand, consider Ekiga. Ekiga is convenient, Free (and free)
VoIP software, and you don't have to trust one company to not be evil.
Anyone can add a backdoor, but anyone can remove it.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:15:10 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:15:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221011240.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, John Gateley wrote:

> I didn't see anyone else at Townhall. I had a nice Octoberfest and a 
> blueberry oatmeal pale though.
>
> I didn't stay once they began auctioning the gnu

That's probably why you missed us at Town Hall.  After the stuffed Gnu 
auction (I bailed out after $80 but was happy to help push the price up), 
Stallman started the Q&A.  He should have announced it earlier, I would 
say, because probably some who left would have stayed.  After the Q&A we 
headed to Town Hall.  Unfortunately, we didn't have any obvious sign of 
our geeky GNU/Linuxiness, unless you could tell by our faces or clothing, 
so you might not have known us if you had seen us.

Mike


From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:15:11 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:15:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810220955210.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810220955210.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810221015.12097.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Wednesday October 22 2008 10:03:16 am Mike Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Joshua Radke wrote:
> > I've read tons of philosophical summaries from the FSF, the Open Source
> > Initiative, and various other sources, which left me a bit confused.  I
> > was most impressed with Richard Stallman's clarity, and would recommend
> > one of his talks to anybody interested in understanding the FSF's
> > position.
>
> Stallman had no notes and no slides, but he spoke for about two hours and
> I don't think he said "umm" even once.  It was pretty amazing if you think
> about it.  It was so well organized that a transcript could probably be
> published as a book chapter with almost no editing.  He obviously gets a
> lot of practice!
>
> I took a lot of notes (almost 6 pages) and wrote down some verbatim
> quotes.  I'll post a long summary of the talk and quotes later.

I would very much appreciate this. I tried to begin to take notes, but gave up 
after about twenty minutes. Which impressed me in itself, because damn few 
people can lecture faster than I can type.

-p.
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:20:01 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:20:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
	<916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221016420.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, Robert Brown wrote:

> We needed to have worn our TCGLUG hats.  My buddy Joe and I were there. 
> After we had already sat down at Townhall, we were pretty sure we 
> spotted some geeks walk in.
>
> I too left at auction time.  Too bad he took so long.  I was really glad 
> to hear him speak about copyleft and patent law.  Despite the solipsisms 
> and the weak arguments, I find there's a fair amount of commonality with 
> his theories on freedom and software and the problems of intellectual 
> property and copyright.  What I'm curious about is whether he can see 
> these commonalities and what he has to say about that.  Is it all about 
> software?


I think all of his writings are available for free on the web.  Look 
through this, or do similar searches:

http://www.google.com/search?q=stallman+%22intellectual+property%22+site%3Afsf.org

Which turns up this article on "intellectual property":

http://www.fsf.org/licensing/essays/not-ipr.xhtml


Mike


From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 10:34:23 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 10:34:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221011240.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221011240.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810221034.23663.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Wednesday October 22 2008 10:15:10 am Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, John Gateley wrote:
> > I didn't see anyone else at Townhall. I had a nice Octoberfest and a
> > blueberry oatmeal pale though.
> >
> > I didn't stay once they began auctioning the gnu
>
> That's probably why you missed us at Town Hall.  After the stuffed Gnu
> auction (I bailed out after $80 but was happy to help push the price up)...

Hey, how much did that go for at the end? Just curious.

-p.
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From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 11:00:39 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:00:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net> <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
Message-ID: <200810221100.39408.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Tuesday October 21 2008 04:04:41 pm benjamin gramlich wrote:
> I think it's difficult to make the case that free software helps to
> preserve our personal freedom. Free software really only benefits those
> who have the knowledge to make use of the access to source code.

This is demonstrably false. I don't code. At all. I haven't written an 
original line of code since the fourth grade. But when I found a bug (or 
rather, a "mis-feature") in my music player (gmusicbrowser, released under 
gpl3) I wrote the developer an email saying "here's my problem," and in the 
next version it was fixed. If it hadn't been, I could have asked someone else 
who knows perl to help me fix it, or paid someone else who knows perl to do it 
for me. In a nutshell, I didn't even look at the code, and I (in a personal 
and immediate way) benefited from the free software development process.

> The true threat to my freedom is my dependence upon another's generosity
> for my employment and thus my livelihood. Or illegal wire tapping. Or
> gerrymandering.

Let's flip those second two examples just slightly. "Wire-tapping" can be 
trivially accomplished these days with the non-free software in your own 
phone. The 21st century equivalent of gerrymandering seems to be non-free 
software in voting machines.

Would you say that those are threats to your freedom?

-p.
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From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com  Wed Oct 22 11:09:58 2008
From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:09:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <200810221100.39408.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net> <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
	<200810221100.39408.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <bada98250810220909i7353ffa1pc8c5e6c360dac0c0@mail.gmail.com>

There is also the unstated assumption of a universal ethic. :)

Is there? Shall we continue in alt.philosophy?

======================
Jordan Peacock
hewhocutsdown at gmail.com
hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com


On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:00 AM, p.daniels <carl1086 at morris.umn.edu> wrote:

>  On Tuesday October 21 2008 04:04:41 pm benjamin gramlich wrote:
>
> > I think it's difficult to make the case that free software helps to
>
> > preserve our personal freedom. Free software really only benefits those
>
> > who have the knowledge to make use of the access to source code.
>
> This is demonstrably false. I don't code. At all. I haven't written an
> original line of code since the fourth grade. But when I found a bug (or
> rather, a "mis-feature") in my music player (gmusicbrowser, released under
> gpl3) I wrote the developer an email saying "here's my problem," and in the
> next version it was fixed. If it hadn't been, I could have asked someone
> else who knows perl to help me fix it, or paid someone else who knows perl
> to do it for me. In a nutshell, I didn't even look at the code, and I (in a
> personal and immediate way) benefited from the free software development
> process.
>
> > The true threat to my freedom is my dependence upon another's generosity
>
> > for my employment and thus my livelihood. Or illegal wire tapping. Or
>
> > gerrymandering.
>
> Let's flip those second two examples just slightly. "Wire-tapping" can be
> trivially accomplished these days with the non-free software in your own
> phone. The 21st century equivalent of gerrymandering seems to be non-free
> software in voting machines.
>
> Would you say that those are threats to your freedom?
>
> -p.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 11:22:22 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 11:22:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <1224688492.9172.23.camel@localhost>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224605585.7787.28.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810211419090.730@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net> <1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
	<20081021211706.GQ3369@iris.iucha.org>
	<1224626584.7556.24.camel@PlanetExpress>
	<1224688492.9172.23.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221113430.27047@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Adam Monsen wrote:

> On Tue, 2008-10-21 at 17:03 -0500, benjamin gramlich wrote:
>
>> But have you?
>
> This is irrelevant. The question is, do you have the ability to? If not, 
> you might be locked into using a particular mechanic.

Reminder on topic:  This is about cars with hoods welded shut.  Does it 
make a difference to a user who would never open the hood to work on his 
engine because he doesn't know how?

My answer is like Adam's answer.  Even if you don't know how to work on an 
engine, you will want to be able to hire someone of your choice to work on 
your car for normal maintenance and you might also want to be able to hire 
someone to improve on your engine by replacing certain parts.  You need to 
get under the hood to do things like put in a car stereo.  You really do 
not want to be locked out of your car's engine compartment.

   --

By the way (and please please create a new thread if you want to reply to 
this), my favorite Candid Camera segment of all time was one from the 
early 1960s where a woman with a car broken down by the side of the road 
tried to get passing motorists to stop and help her out.  Men would stop, 
then open the hood and see that there was no engine in the car!  They 
would say "Lady, you got no engine!," and she would ask "Is that bad?"

Mike


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Wed Oct 22 11:34:40 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:34:40 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org><916e208f0810212039y38fb4e67x3250f69fb2cabf1b@mail.gmail.com>
	<48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E601A01AF2@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

Joshua Radkewrote:

>  a feature of the GPL ... that restricts (my own word) the 
> freedom of a distributor ... to preserve the greater freedom.  


In Stallman's own words (from the preamble to the GPL):

The licenses for most software ... are designed to take away your
freedom ... 
By contrast, the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee
your freedom ...
To protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these
rights or asking you to surrender the rights. Therefore, you have
certain responsibilities if you distribute copies of the software, or if
you modify it: responsibilities to respect the freedom of others.

    source http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html 

(this document also outlines the 4 Freedoms) 

You are free to make changes and keep them private. The responsibility
to provide source only "kicks in" when you distribute.  This prevents
corporations from taking GPL code, creating a private fork with some
trivial obfuscation, and selling vastly overpriced binaries - selfishly
riding on the backs of others.

Selling *is* permitted and some companies (Red Hat, Ubuntu) have been
wildly successful.  But this isn't a good business model for others
(Microsoft, Adobe) - since who would pay $$$ when you can compile the
code yourself (or download a binary from someone who can)?






From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Wed Oct 22 11:41:06 2008
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:41:06 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] is proprietary software immoral?
In-Reply-To: <200810221100.39408.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810210050100.25564@taxa.epi.umn.edu><48FE3AD5.1000304@fngi.net>
	<1224623081.6108.0.camel@PlanetExpress>
	<200810221100.39408.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E601A01B10@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

 

On Tuesday October 21 2008 04:04:41 pm benjamin gramlich wrote:

 

> I think it's difficult to make the case that free software helps to

> preserve our personal freedom. Free software really only benefits
those

> who have the knowledge to make use of the access to source code.

 

RMS addressed this in his talk last night.  Even if you do not have the
skills, you are free to hire someone to make the changes you want, much
as you would hire a professional to renovate your home if you did not
have the carpentry or plumbing skills (image a "proprietary house" where
only the manufacturer could make changes or repairs!).

 

He also noted that everyone benefits from contributions others make as
the code continues to develop and evolve.  

 

Neither would possible if the software was not free.

 

 

 

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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 22 12:18:44 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 12:18:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] after the Stallman lecture
In-Reply-To: <200810221034.23663.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FE9C5F.60207@jfoo.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221011240.20571@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<200810221034.23663.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810221217110.27047@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, p.daniels wrote:

> On Wednesday October 22 2008 10:15:10 am Mike Miller wrote:
>> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008, John Gateley wrote:
>>
>>> I didn't see anyone else at Townhall. I had a nice Octoberfest and a 
>>> blueberry oatmeal pale though.
>>>
>>> I didn't stay once they began auctioning the gnu
>>
>> That's probably why you missed us at Town Hall.  After the stuffed Gnu 
>> auction (I bailed out after $80 but was happy to help push the price 
>> up)...
>
> Hey, how much did that go for at the end? Just curious.

I'm pretty sure it went for $110 because he called for $120 for awhile and 
couldn't get it.

Mike


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Wed Oct 22 23:52:31 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:52:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E601A01AF2@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E601A01AF2@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <200810222352.32033.tclug@lizakowski.com>


I wanted to get his take on 3D printing.  When the cost of reproducing 
physical goods approaches zero, it will then take on some of the same 
economics as software, and the same battles will be fought again.

Imagine if you purchase & download a set of chess pieces to print locally, but 
you can only print one, and can't modify them.  The GPL suddenly has 
applications in the physical world.

But it's far more than chess pieces at stake.  Anything you can buy at 
walmart, that's made of plastic, could be made at home eventually.  

If you have $15 to $50k, you can do it today.  

Jeremy


On Wednesday 22 October 2008 11:34:40 am Smith, Craig A wrote:
> Joshua Radkewrote:
> >  a feature of the GPL ... that restricts (my own word) the
> > freedom of a distributor ... to preserve the greater freedom.
>
> In Stallman's own words (from the preamble to the GPL):
>
> The licenses for most software ... are designed to take away your
> freedom ...
> By contrast, the GNU General Public License is intended to guarantee
> your freedom ...
> To protect your rights, we need to prevent others from denying you these
> rights or asking you to surrender the rights. Therefore, you have
> certain responsibilities if you distribute copies of the software, or if
> you modify it: responsibilities to respect the freedom of others.
>
>     source http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
>
> (this document also outlines the 4 Freedoms)
>
> You are free to make changes and keep them private. The responsibility
> to provide source only "kicks in" when you distribute.  This prevents
> corporations from taking GPL code, creating a private fork with some
> trivial obfuscation, and selling vastly overpriced binaries - selfishly
> riding on the backs of others.
>
> Selling *is* permitted and some companies (Red Hat, Ubuntu) have been
> wildly successful.  But this isn't a good business model for others
> (Microsoft, Adobe) - since who would pay $$$ when you can compile the
> code yourself (or download a binary from someone who can)?
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct 23 01:30:53 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:30:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <200810222352.32033.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <200810212145.31712.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>
	<48FF2C82.2090208@radkeland.org>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E601A01AF2@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
	<200810222352.32033.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810230118420.18729@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008, Jeremy wrote:

> I wanted to get his take on 3D printing.  When the cost of reproducing 
> physical goods approaches zero, it will then take on some of the same 
> economics as software, and the same battles will be fought again.
>
> Imagine if you purchase & download a set of chess pieces to print 
> locally, but you can only print one, and can't modify them.  The GPL 
> suddenly has applications in the physical world.
>
> But it's far more than chess pieces at stake.  Anything you can buy at 
> walmart, that's made of plastic, could be made at home eventually.
>
> If you have $15 to $50k, you can do it today.
>
> Jeremy


Are you saying that there exists some sort of 3D "printing" machine that 
makes things out of plastic?  Hmmm...  I guess so (and it started in 
1986!):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_printing

I don't think the cost can approach zero unless you're talking about very 
small objects.  I think your question is interesting, but is it different 
to control "printing" of objects than to control how a car or computer 
works?  It seems like the same problem.

The Wikipedia article shows that objects can be 3D scanned and 3D printed 
from the scans, so you can be sure that manufacturers of all sorts of 
products will want laws to control that kind of copying of their works.

Mike


From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Thu Oct 23 12:35:41 2008
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 12:35:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>

> Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 01:30:53 -0500 (CDT)
> From: Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu>

> The Wikipedia article shows that objects can be 3D scanned and 3D
> printed  from the scans, so you can be sure that manufacturers of all
> sorts of  products will want laws to control that kind of copying of
> their works.
>
> Mike

One maker of such machines tried to include in the "license" a stipulation
that you wouldn't build any copies of the machine itself, IIRC.

Similarly, I think there was a maker of jigs (shop tools) that made a jig
for making jigs... (wait for it)... who said (or tried to say) that you
couldn't use it to make jigs for making jigs.

Chris





From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct 23 13:15:54 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:15:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231313470.4104@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008, Chris Schumann wrote:

> One maker of such machines tried to include in the "license" a 
> stipulation that you wouldn't build any copies of the machine itself, 
> IIRC.

That is kinda funny because these machines just can't do that.  That 
license is almost a false advertisement!


> Similarly, I think there was a maker of jigs (shop tools) that made a 
> jig for making jigs... (wait for it)... who said (or tried to say) that 
> you couldn't use it to make jigs for making jigs.

That's a good one -- it sounds a lot like software licensing.

Mike


From haircut at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 13:56:36 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:56:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231313470.4104@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231313470.4104@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1224788196.9763.22.camel@localhost>

On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 13:15 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> That is kinda funny because these machines just can't do that.

Sure they can: http://reprap.org

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From dru at druswanderings.net  Thu Oct 23 13:55:59 2008
From: dru at druswanderings.net (The Wandering Dru)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 13:55:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <4900C8BF.3050901@druswanderings.net>

Enter... RepRap[1]

It's a GPL'd 3d printer.

1. http://www.reprap.org/

-- 
Andy Moore
The Wandering Dru             GnuPG Key: 9235A5B9
http://www.druswanderings.net

Get nifty TCLUG merchandise at the TCLUG Store!
http://www.cafeshops.com/tclug



From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct 23 18:45:33 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 18:45:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <1224788196.9763.22.camel@localhost>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231313470.4104@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224788196.9763.22.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231840420.6211@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008, Adam Monsen wrote:

> On Thu, 2008-10-23 at 13:15 -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> That is kinda funny because these machines just can't do that.
>
> Sure they can: http://reprap.org

Of course it can make some parts of itself.  That one was designed 
specifically for that purpose and it still can only do 60%.

This was the first self-replicating robot, but it needed to have parts 
given to it:

http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/videos/20050511_self-replicating_robots.mpg

I think I took that from Nature in May 2005.

These things do make you wonder what will be possible someday.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Oct 23 19:06:08 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:06:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231840420.6211@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231313470.4104@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224788196.9763.22.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231840420.6211@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081024000608.GU3369@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 06:45:33PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> These things do make you wonder what will be possible someday.

We'll build carbon-based entities that can replicate themselves when
provided with energy and some amino-acids.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Thu Oct 23 19:16:26 2008
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:16:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <20081024000608.GU3369@iris.iucha.org>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>	<30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231313470.4104@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<1224788196.9763.22.camel@localhost>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231840420.6211@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081024000608.GU3369@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <490113DA.4060407@gmail.com>

Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 06:45:33PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > These things do make you wonder what will be possible someday.
>
> We'll build carbon-based entities that can replicate themselves when
> provided with energy and some amino-acids.
>   
We already have that. It's called sex.


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Thu Oct 23 19:55:53 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2008 19:55:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Stallman & 3D
In-Reply-To: <490113DA.4060407@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1224781204.24293.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<30449.136.229.5.52.1224783341.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231313470.4104@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<1224788196.9763.22.camel@localhost>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231840420.6211@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<20081024000608.GU3369@iris.iucha.org> <490113DA.4060407@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810231954120.25713@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008, Andrew Berg wrote:

> Florin Iucha wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 06:45:33PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>>> These things do make you wonder what will be possible someday.
>>
>> We'll build carbon-based entities that can replicate themselves when 
>> provided with energy and some amino-acids.
>
> We already have that. It's called sex.

I made one of those carbon-based life forms with a lot of help from my 
wife.  She did most of the work.  It's an interesting little animal -- 
fairly noisy and it breaks things, lots of things, but it has a great 
smile.

Mike


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Oct 24 12:12:41 2008
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 2008 12:12:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] ** Tomorrow ** Wikis, Ubuntu 8.10 peek,
 and Open Q&A Topic @PenguinsUnbound Linux Meeting Oct. 25th
Message-ID: <49020209.9090208@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday October 25th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00 to 12:00.

(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This month we will talk about Wiki's and the Wiki used on the website. 
Looking at what wiki's are and how to use them.  Please bring your wiki 
questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Then we will take a peek at the soon to be released Ubuntu 8.10.

And we should have time to answer your Linux questions.

*** The Install Fest has been moved to Nov. 8th from 9:00am to 5:00pm 
because Ubuntu 8.10 does not come out until Oct. 30th.  Hope you can 
make it then!  I know I can't wait! ***

Thanks, hope to see you there!

==>brian.


From sloncho at gmail.com  Mon Oct 27 14:25:08 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 14:25:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,
FYI, CodeWeavers - the guys behind wine project, will offer their
commercial version of wine - Crossover Office for free on Oct. 28
2008. Here is the official announcement:

http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20081027/

Cheers

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 27 16:00:44 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:00:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Sunny wrote:

> FYI, CodeWeavers - the guys behind wine project, will offer their 
> commercial version of wine - Crossover Office for free on Oct. 28 2008. 
> Here is the official announcement:
>
> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20081027/

What is the license?  It's proprietary and staying that way?...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_Office

Sounds like something to avoid.  Anything wrong with the GPL version of 
VirtualBox?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box

Mike


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Mon Oct 27 16:19:04 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:19:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> On 10/27/2008 at 4:00 PM, in message
<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732 at taxa.epi.umn.edu>, Mike Miller
<mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Sunny wrote:
>> FYI, CodeWeavers - the guys behind wine project, will offer their 
>> commercial version of wine - Crossover Office for free on Oct. 28 2008. 
>> Here is the official announcement:
>> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20081027/ 
> What is the license?  It's proprietary and staying that way?...
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_Office 
> Sounds like something to avoid.  

Only if you think proprietary software is evil.
Not everyone does.

> Anything wrong with the GPL version of 
> VirtualBox?
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box 

Besides requiring a Microsoft Windows license 
IN ADDITION to a Microsoft Office license? 
Nothing. These are not equivalent pieces of 
software.





From j at packetgod.com  Mon Oct 27 16:24:20 2008
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:24:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0810271424s580280c7pa3182fa46984aafb@mail.gmail.com>

Y'all can avoid this all you want, you couldn't keep me away,

--j

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Sunny wrote:
>
>> FYI, CodeWeavers - the guys behind wine project, will offer their
>> commercial version of wine - Crossover Office for free on Oct. 28 2008.
>> Here is the official announcement:
>>
>> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20081027/
>
> What is the license?  It's proprietary and staying that way?...
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_Office
>
> Sounds like something to avoid.  Anything wrong with the GPL version of
> VirtualBox?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 27 17:01:45 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:01:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Troy.A Johnson wrote:

>> What is the license?  It's proprietary and staying that way?...
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_Office
>> Sounds like something to avoid.
>
> Only if you think proprietary software is evil.
> Not everyone does.

I don't think it is evil but I think it isn't a good thing and I avoid it.


>> Anything wrong with the GPL version of
>> VirtualBox?
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box
>
> Besides requiring a Microsoft Windows license IN ADDITION to a Microsoft 
> Office license? Nothing. These are not equivalent pieces of software.

So Codeweavers runs Windows-only programs without using any Microsoft 
software?  That does lead to a "lesser of two evils" kind of situation.

Mike


From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Mon Oct 27 17:16:24 2008
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:16:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4905F765.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>

>>> On 10/27/2008 at 5:01 PM, in message
<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732 at taxa.epi.umn.edu>, Mike Miller
<mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Troy.A Johnson wrote:
>>> What is the license?  It's proprietary and staying that way?...
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossover_Office 
>>> Sounds like something to avoid.
>> Only if you think proprietary software is evil.
>> Not everyone does.
> I don't think it is evil but I think it isn't a good thing and I avoid it.

Noted.

>>> Anything wrong with the GPL version of
>>> VirtualBox?
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box 
>> Besides requiring a Microsoft Windows license IN ADDITION to a Microsoft 
>> Office license? Nothing. These are not equivalent pieces of software.
> So Codeweavers runs Windows-only programs without using any Microsoft 
> software?  That does lead to a "lesser of two evils" kind of situation.

Not exactly. 

It will run Windows programs without a 
Windows installation (and thus a Windows
license), but it does require whatever 
software you want to run. For "Crossover
Office", that would be Microsoft Office, and
that does require a license. 

I can do without Microsoft Office myself, 
but I know some people who cannot. With 
this software they may be able to do without
Windows. In that instance, it can be a "lesser"
"evil". 
 
Troy





From hpenner at gmail.com  Mon Oct 27 17:24:56 2008
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:24:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <49063FB8.9060709@gmail.com>

Mike Miller wrote:
>>> Anything wrong with the GPL version of
>>> VirtualBox?
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box
>> Besides requiring a Microsoft Windows license IN ADDITION to a Microsoft 
>> Office license? Nothing. These are not equivalent pieces of software.
> 
> So Codeweavers runs Windows-only programs without using any Microsoft 
> software?  That does lead to a "lesser of two evils" kind of situation.
> 

Mike, it's just souped-up WINE.  Crossover is just a cutting-edge,
semi-closed version of WINE.  And they claim that most of what they
develop gets contributed, eventually, to the GPL WINE project.  Most of
the stuff they don't give back has to do with ease of installation, for
their corporate audience.  Crossover is kind of like Red Hat; they juice
up the OSS and sell support for it, to get in the door at places that
normally wouldn't consider using Linux in the office because they don't
have the time to screw around with WINE to get all their office apps to
work.  IMHO Crossover is one of the good guys.

Harry


From sloncho at gmail.com  Mon Oct 27 17:51:58 2008
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:51:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e7eeb230810271551i136c3529ged0b48a77454e86d@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:00 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu> wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Sunny wrote:
>
>> FYI, CodeWeavers - the guys behind wine project, will offer their
>> commercial version of wine - Crossover Office for free on Oct. 28 2008.
>> Here is the official announcement:
>>
>> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20081027/
>
> What is the license?  It's proprietary and staying that way?...

They are the core contributors to wine (GPL). Most of their "closed
license" is about some managing tools to make it easier to
manage/install applications. In most cases you can go w/o them, just
using wine, but for "enterprise" customers there is added value in
easy management.

I just provided the information for anybody who is interested to
evaluate. I do not "recommend" them :)

>
> Sounds like something to avoid.  Anything wrong with the GPL version of
> VirtualBox?
>

Paying M$ fee for the Windows you install in VB.

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just
a pile of scrap.


From pcutler at foresightlinux.org  Mon Oct 27 17:54:24 2008
From: pcutler at foresightlinux.org (Paul Cutler)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 16:54:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <49063FB8.9060709@gmail.com>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<49063FB8.9060709@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c4ad4df0810271554w36bb7575q4d13b0ec6263898a@mail.gmail.com>

And they're local!

Paul

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:24 PM, Harry Penner <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:
> Mike Miller wrote:
>>>> Anything wrong with the GPL version of
>>>> VirtualBox?
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box
>>> Besides requiring a Microsoft Windows license IN ADDITION to a Microsoft
>>> Office license? Nothing. These are not equivalent pieces of software.
>>
>> So Codeweavers runs Windows-only programs without using any Microsoft
>> software?  That does lead to a "lesser of two evils" kind of situation.
>>
>
> Mike, it's just souped-up WINE.  Crossover is just a cutting-edge,
> semi-closed version of WINE.  And they claim that most of what they
> develop gets contributed, eventually, to the GPL WINE project.  Most of
> the stuff they don't give back has to do with ease of installation, for
> their corporate audience.  Crossover is kind of like Red Hat; they juice
> up the OSS and sell support for it, to get in the door at places that
> normally wouldn't consider using Linux in the office because they don't
> have the time to screw around with WINE to get all their office apps to
> work.  IMHO Crossover is one of the good guys.
>
> Harry
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Oct 27 18:08:49 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:08:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20081027230849.GK3369@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 05:01:45PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> >> Anything wrong with the GPL version of
> >> VirtualBox?
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Box

CodeWeavers was here first, 5 years ago, when virtualization on a PC
was a pipe dream.

> > Besides requiring a Microsoft Windows license IN ADDITION to a Microsoft 
> > Office license? Nothing. These are not equivalent pieces of software.
> 
> So Codeweavers runs Windows-only programs without using any Microsoft 
> software?  That does lead to a "lesser of two evils" kind of situation.

It is useful to some organizations, as a first step for a migration
from Windows to GNU/Linux.  Or as a first step in porting Windows
applications to GNU/Linux.  And that's good.

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 27 18:29:04 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 18:29:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810271551i136c3529ged0b48a77454e86d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<e7eeb230810271551i136c3529ged0b48a77454e86d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271816440.26098@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Sunny wrote:

> They are the core contributors to wine (GPL). Most of their "closed 
> license" is about some managing tools to make it easier to 
> manage/install applications. In most cases you can go w/o them, just 
> using wine, but for "enterprise" customers there is added value in easy 
> management.
>
> I just provided the information for anybody who is interested to
> evaluate. I do not "recommend" them :)
>
>>
>> Sounds like something to avoid.  Anything wrong with the GPL version of
>> VirtualBox?
>>
>
> Paying M$ fee for the Windows you install in VB.


Thanks to everyone who filled me in on Crossover and WINE.  It's hard to 
keep track of all these things and how they work.  WINE has been around 
for awhile but I haven't tried it.

I'm hoping to be able to dump all the proprietary stuff pretty soon but 
I'm not sure how it's going to go.  Like most at the U I'm still using 
Windows, but it isn't really doing much for me because most of my real 
work is on GNU/Linux systems that I connect to remotely from the Windows 
box -- kinda silly.  But once I drop Windows altogether I'm sure I'll 
discover a bunch of annoyances.

By the way, I was very disappointed to learn that Linux kernel has binary 
blobs in it that are not free software.  There is a similar problem with 
dynamic loading of device drivers leading to addition of non-free drivers 
to some distributions.  Stallman did recommend these distros though:

Ututo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ututo
http://www.ututo.org/

BLAG:
http://www.blagblagblag.org/

GNewSense:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNewSense
http://www.gnewsense.org/

Mike


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Mon Oct 27 21:00:47 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:00:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810272059290.13061@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Mon, 27 Oct 2008, Sunny wrote:

> FYI, CodeWeavers - the guys behind wine project, will offer their 
> commercial version of wine - Crossover Office for free on Oct. 28 2008. 
> Here is the official announcement:
> 
> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20081027/


Strangely, no one commented on the very unusual reason why they are making 
this program free at this time.  Did you read that web page, above?  It 
has to do with the price of gasoline in St. Paul!!

Mike


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Tue Oct 28 07:42:18 2008
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 07:42:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <4c4ad4df0810271554w36bb7575q4d13b0ec6263898a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>	<49063FB8.9060709@gmail.com>
	<4c4ad4df0810271554w36bb7575q4d13b0ec6263898a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490708AA.5010506@beer.tclug.org>

Paul Cutler wrote:
> And they're local!

  Not only local, but historically they've been supportive to TCLUG. 
They hosted an installfest at their office in December of 2001, and 
Jeremy White has given at least one talk on Wine (err, ABOUT Wine) at a 
LUG meeting.  Oh, apparently three, if our site is any indication 
(2001-12-01, 2002-09-07, 2007-11-07).
  Poor guys.  Looks like they're getting slaughtered today.

      Jima


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Tue Oct 28 11:17:12 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:17:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <490708AA.5010506@beer.tclug.org>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<49063FB8.9060709@gmail.com>
	<4c4ad4df0810271554w36bb7575q4d13b0ec6263898a@mail.gmail.com>
	<490708AA.5010506@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810281112190.10999@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Jima wrote:

> Paul Cutler wrote:
>> And they're local!
>
>  Not only local, but historically they've been supportive to TCLUG.
> They hosted an installfest at their office in December of 2001, and
> Jeremy White has given at least one talk on Wine (err, ABOUT Wine) at a
> LUG meeting.  Oh, apparently three, if our site is any indication
> (2001-12-01, 2002-09-07, 2007-11-07).
>  Poor guys.  Looks like they're getting slaughtered today.

Yep.  Reddit effect.  Someone once posted a web page of mine on Reddit. 
It got up to #4 and I had 18,000 visitors in one day, but I didn't have 
much to offer -- no $40 discount!

I'm not clear on how this will work.  They are putting their installation 
programs ("fully unlocked builds") up for free today, but they ask for an 
email address for sending a serial number:

http://down.codeweavers.com/

I don't know what the serial number is for on a "fully unlocked" build and 
I don't know what restrictions that serial number implies.

Mike


From carl1086 at morris.umn.edu  Tue Oct 28 11:23:57 2008
From: carl1086 at morris.umn.edu (p.daniels)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:23:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810281112190.10999@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<490708AA.5010506@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810281112190.10999@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <200810281123.57526.carl1086@morris.umn.edu>

On Tuesday October 28 2008 11:17:12 am Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Jima wrote:
> > Paul Cutler wrote:
> >> And they're local!
> >
> >  Not only local, but historically they've been supportive to TCLUG.
> > They hosted an installfest at their office in December of 2001, and
> > Jeremy White has given at least one talk on Wine (err, ABOUT Wine) at a
> > LUG meeting.  Oh, apparently three, if our site is any indication
> > (2001-12-01, 2002-09-07, 2007-11-07).
> >  Poor guys.  Looks like they're getting slaughtered today.
>
> Yep.  Reddit effect.  Someone once posted a web page of mine on Reddit.
> It got up to #4 and I had 18,000 visitors in one day, but I didn't have
> much to offer -- no $40 discount!
>
> I'm not clear on how this will work.  They are putting their installation
> programs ("fully unlocked builds") up for free today, but they ask for an
> email address for sending a serial number:
>
> http://down.codeweavers.com/
>
> I don't know what the serial number is for on a "fully unlocked" build and
> I don't know what restrictions that serial number implies.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

I think initially this morning the downloads available were the PUEL versions, 
which you could use the serial on to upgrade to the full version. But their 
serial server is taking a massive hammering, so they put the full versions up 
for download; you can still register for a serial number if you wish (if you 
want support, I guess) and they'll email it to you later on in the week.

-p.
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Oct 28 11:37:00 2008
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 11:37:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271816440.26098@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com><alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu><e7eeb230810271551i136c3529ged0b48a77454e86d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271816440.26098@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <08d601c9391b$673c6000$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 6:29 PM
To: TCLUG List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28

> By the way, I was very disappointed to learn that Linux kernel has binary 
> blobs in it that are not free software.  There is a similar problem with 
> dynamic loading of device drivers leading to addition of non-free drivers 
> to some distributions.  Stallman did recommend these distros though:
>
> Ututo:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ututo
> http://www.ututo.org/
>
> BLAG:
> http://www.blagblagblag.org/
>
> GNewSense:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNewSense
> http://www.gnewsense.org/
>
> Mike


You might also consider OpenBSD which as a complete OS strives to meet the
"no unfree software in their base system" goal as stated in their project
goals page. http://www.openbsd.org/goals.html
They have a special separation for GNU specific code in their source tree as
the GPL license is too strict for inclusion into their kernel.

Every release (6 month cycle) the OpenBSD project has a theme that loosely
matches up with some of their current struggles for writing free software.
In particular their version 3.9 focused specifically on blobs and you can
read a brief summary of their efforts as well as download and enjoy the
theme related song that is also included in the CD sets every release. 
http://www.openbsd.org/lyrics.html

One common practice befalling most of the Linux world that adds to the 
"unfree"-ness of most Linux distros is the lack of a fully free base OS such
as you are referring to. This type of topic is discussed every so often on
the OpenBSD MISC mailing list. There are some choice comments from Theo
(OpenBSD founder and primary leader) in this thread for example
http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=121452549117639&w=2

Too many NDA's and other uncooperative methods of getting stuff to work with
Linux (yes, the kernel) goes on in the Linux based realm. OpenBSD wrote
their own BGP server, their own OSPF server, their own CVS server, their own
NTP server, their own packet filter/firewall, their own ssh implementation
(its called OpenSSH), etc just to replace the "unfree" popular versions.
They even do not include Apache 2 in base because the license is not free
enough though it is available via ports.

Just a couple $.01 for ya



From tclug at natecarlson.com  Tue Oct 28 15:47:13 2008
From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:47:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810281112190.10999@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271557590.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<4905E9FA.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810271659500.10732@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
	<49063FB8.9060709@gmail.com>
	<4c4ad4df0810271554w36bb7575q4d13b0ec6263898a@mail.gmail.com>
	<490708AA.5010506@beer.tclug.org>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810281112190.10999@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.1.10.0810281546310.29361@iron.msp.technicality.org>

On Tue, 28 Oct 2008, Mike Miller wrote:
> I'm not clear on how this will work.  They are putting their 
> installation programs ("fully unlocked builds") up for free today, but 
> they ask for an email address for sending a serial number:
>
> http://down.codeweavers.com/
>
> I don't know what the serial number is for on a "fully unlocked" build 
> and I don't know what restrictions that serial number implies.

The fully unlocked versions should just work, no sn needed.

The serial number will work on their standard downloads (ie - it'll work 
for upgraded versions too), and is also needed for support, IIRC.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
| nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com |
|       depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981            |
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From nospam at hiltonbsd.com  Tue Oct 28 16:40:38 2008
From: nospam at hiltonbsd.com (Stephen Hilton)
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 2008 16:40:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CrossoverOffice for free on Oct 28
In-Reply-To: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <e7eeb230810271225o61e4fbefq72bee997b2b3dbb4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490786D6.2080604@hiltonbsd.com>

Sunny wrote:
> Hi,
> FYI, CodeWeavers - the guys behind wine project, will offer their
> commercial version of wine - Crossover Office for free on Oct. 28
> 2008. Here is the official announcement:
>
> http://www.codeweavers.com/about/general/press/20081027/
>
> Cheers
>
>   
Thanks for sharing this info :-)

-Stephen Hilton


From troythetechguy at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 09:30:31 2008
From: troythetechguy at gmail.com (Troy)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:30:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux headers
Message-ID: <34de7f3d0810290730t73a21865t11c168c8c1ad7b6f@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all,

What are Linux headers, and why must I re-install vmware after updating headers?

Thanks,

Troy


From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu  Wed Oct 29 09:49:59 2008
From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:49:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux headers
In-Reply-To: <34de7f3d0810290730t73a21865t11c168c8c1ad7b6f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <34de7f3d0810290730t73a21865t11c168c8c1ad7b6f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810290948210.1675@taxa.epi.umn.edu>

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008, Troy wrote:

> What are Linux headers,

http://www.google.com/search?q="linux+headers"


> and why must I re-install vmware after updating headers?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="linux+headers"+vmware+reinstall

Mike


From bradyh at bitstream.net  Wed Oct 29 09:57:48 2008
From: bradyh at bitstream.net (Brady Hegberg)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 09:57:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
Message-ID: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>

I'm setting up a Subversion server on Suse and connecting to it from  
Windows clients using svn+ssh - there seem to be about 5000 different  
ways of setting it up and none of them are working very well so far.   
Can anyone steer me in the right direction?  Should I be using SVNKit  
or configuring ssh-agent? I've found lots of good documentation but  
every set of instructions contradicts every other.

Thanks,
-Brady


From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 10:37:34 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:37:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
In-Reply-To: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
References: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810290837w51651709o2d288018d9663a56@mail.gmail.com>

I had SVN+SSH setup for awhile, but in the end I decided that setting
up Apache and DAV SVN was easier than SVN+SSH. I've limited access to
the SVN directory on apache to localhost, so clients are still coming
in over a SSH tunnel, or  you could use https.

First, you'll want to get SSH key based authentication working. There
is plenty of documentation on how to do this. On Windows, download
PuTTY (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/), generate
SSH keys with PuTTYgen, and setup Pageant to start when you log into
windows and load your SSH keys. You will want to use password
protected keys. Copy your public key to ~/.ssh/authorized_keys on your
SVN server.

Test your setup using putty. You should be able to ssh into the server
and get a command prompt without entering a password.

Once you've got that setup and working you have to deal with SVN. Are
you setting up a SVN repository in your home directory for your own
use or are you setting up a repository for multiple users? A personal
repository is easy as you won't have to deal with file system
permissions. Basically do:

svn co svn+ssh://server/home/user/svn/ local_directory

A multi-user repository is a bit trickier. It worked best when I
created a system group for the repository and added system users to
the group, then gave that group the needed permissions on the SVN
repository. For a multi-user repository, again I'll recommend the
Apache svn_dav module. No system level users are required. Once you
have permissions set properly on the repository, a checkout and
checkin should work as expected...

svn co svn+ssh//server/path/to/svn/repository local_directory

I recommend Tortoise SVN (http://tortoisesvn.tigris.org/) for a
Windows SVN client. I had little trouble getting it working with Putty
and Pagent to do svn+ssh.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 10:54:25 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:54:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux headers
In-Reply-To: <alpine.GSO.2.00.0810290948210.1675@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
References: <34de7f3d0810290730t73a21865t11c168c8c1ad7b6f@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.GSO.2.00.0810290948210.1675@taxa.epi.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810290854k3c85ce76r90d4bb396f55839e@mail.gmail.com>

To keep VMWare as combatible as possible, VMWare includes sources and
binary code needed to compile it's kernel modules for the version of
the Linux kernel you are running. This saves VMWare from having to
provide an update for it's products every time a new Linux kernel is
released.

In order to compile the VMWare modules, you need header files for your
kernel as well as the C Standard Library headers. (Possibly others as
well, I don't recall.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Header_file
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_standard_library

A header file commonly contains forward declarations of classes,
subroutines, variables, and other identifiers.

In order to use the classes, subroutines, variables, and other
identifiers of a library in your code, you have to include the header
file in your C code and the header needs to be available when you
compile. There's more to it than that, but I only had two semesters of
C++ and I never looked at it again... :)

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From haircut at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 10:57:08 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 10:57:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
In-Reply-To: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
References: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <1225295828.10162.11.camel@localhost>

On Wed, 2008-10-29 at 09:57 -0500, Brady Hegberg wrote:
> I'm setting up a Subversion server on Suse and connecting to it from  
> Windows clients using svn+ssh

I'd highly recommend using the Apache HTTP Server. It might be more work
than svnserve to set up, but much more flexible, and, IMHO, the most
convenient option for users. You also get a free Web-browser based
interface to your repository.

> there seem to be about 5000 different  ways of setting it up and none
> of them are working very well so far.

Start here:
http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.5/svn.serverconfig.choosing.html

This free, online book is an excellent resource for learning all things
Subversion.

> Can anyone steer me in the right direction?  Should I be using SVNKit
> or configuring ssh-agent? I've found lots of good documentation but  
> every set of instructions contradicts every other.

For Windows clients, TortoiseSVN is excellent. If Eclipse is being used,
there's a Subclipse plugin that works quite well.

If you need other team collaboration tools, check out Trac. It's
supposed to integrate nicely with Subversion.

After you've solved all these issues, I'd be curious to hear which
documentation ends up being the most helpful.

I'd like to give a Subversion talk at a TCLUG or Penguins Unbound
meeting, let me know if you'd be interested and what you'd like to hear.

-- 
Adam Monsen
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Oct 29 13:25:51 2008
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:25:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
In-Reply-To: <1225295828.10162.11.camel@localhost>
References: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
	<1225295828.10162.11.camel@localhost>
Message-ID: <e3a54b020810291125q7349c685t1b5acbf90a2ed987@mail.gmail.com>

> I'd like to give a Subversion talk at a TCLUG or Penguins Unbound
> meeting, let me know if you'd be interested and what you'd like to hear.

Tips on how to keep that !@#$% in the next cube from resolving
conflicts by deleting the SVN version and committing his version. ;)


-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From tclug at jfoo.org  Wed Oct 29 13:38:55 2008
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:38:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810291125q7349c685t1b5acbf90a2ed987@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
	<1225295828.10162.11.camel@localhost>
	<e3a54b020810291125q7349c685t1b5acbf90a2ed987@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20081029133855.1f88b372.tclug@jfoo.org>

On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 13:25:51 -0500
"Andrew S. Zbikowski" <andyzib at gmail.com> wrote:

> > I'd like to give a Subversion talk at a TCLUG or Penguins Unbound
> > meeting, let me know if you'd be interested and what you'd like to hear.
> 
> Tips on how to keep that !@#$% in the next cube from resolving
> conflicts by deleting the SVN version and committing his version. ;)

While there are many humorous answers here, involving hammers,
rubber hoses, or viruses, isn't SVN really well equipped for this
case? The log should show what !@#$% did, no way to avoid finger
pointing if needed...

j

-- 
John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org>


From wilson at visi.com  Wed Oct 29 16:54:19 2008
From: wilson at visi.com (Tim Wilson)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 16:54:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Fun hardware hacking projects
Message-ID: <BECF0E4C-9C53-4342-B005-90289D84E84F@visi.com>

Hey everyone,

I'm wondering if any of you have any good examples of hardware hacking  
projects that might be fun to put at work in our tech/network support  
area. I'm thinking of things like lighting up various LEDs to indicate  
network traffic or some other event. I'm especially interested in  
repurposing old school analog meters. We have some guys who really  
know their way around a soldering iron, and it seems like a great way  
to have some fun at work. It looks like we'll be starting to use  
nagios sometime soon, so that would provide lots of opportunities for  
triggering different notifications.

I'd love to hear some good stories about this stuff.

-Tim

-- 
Tim Wilson, The Savvy Technologist
Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA
Educational technology guy, Linux and OS X fan, Grad. student, Daddy
mailto: wilson at visi.com  aim: tis270  blog and podcast: http://technosavvy.org



From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Wed Oct 29 18:41:01 2008
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2008 18:41:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
In-Reply-To: <e3a54b020810291125q7349c685t1b5acbf90a2ed987@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
	<1225295828.10162.11.camel@localhost>
	<e3a54b020810291125q7349c685t1b5acbf90a2ed987@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D1AE1DD2-C055-48AD-B8C6-AFF2320BF144@secure-computing.net>

On Oct 29, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Andrew S. Zbikowski wrote:

>> I'd like to give a Subversion talk at a TCLUG or Penguins Unbound
>> meeting, let me know if you'd be interested and what you'd like to  
>> hear.
>
> Tips on how to keep that !@#$% in the next cube from resolving
> conflicts by deleting the SVN version and committing his version. ;)


While not 'preventive,' see 'svn blame'.

---
Eric Crist






From tclug at lizakowski.com  Thu Oct 30 01:35:57 2008
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 01:35:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Fun hardware hacking projects
In-Reply-To: <BECF0E4C-9C53-4342-B005-90289D84E84F@visi.com>
References: <BECF0E4C-9C53-4342-B005-90289D84E84F@visi.com>
Message-ID: <200810300135.57694.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> I'm wondering if any of you have any good examples of hardware hacking
> projects that might be fun to put at work in our tech/network support

I heard about a lava lamp that is triggered by a broken svn/cvs repository.  
The goal is to check in a fix and run the tests again before the wax melts 
and people notice.

Nagios might also work in the other direction - to process your own hardware 
sensors.  

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 4:54:19 pm Tim Wilson wrote:
> Hey everyone,
>
> I'm wondering if any of you have any good examples of hardware hacking
> projects that might be fun to put at work in our tech/network support
> area. I'm thinking of things like lighting up various LEDs to indicate
> network traffic or some other event. I'm especially interested in
> repurposing old school analog meters. We have some guys who really
> know their way around a soldering iron, and it seems like a great way
> to have some fun at work. It looks like we'll be starting to use
> nagios sometime soon, so that would provide lots of opportunities for
> triggering different notifications.
>
> I'd love to hear some good stories about this stuff.
>
> -Tim




From haircut at gmail.com  Thu Oct 30 10:59:12 2008
From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 10:59:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
In-Reply-To: <18425FB3-6806-4F18-9253-917862D23FA0@bitstream.net>
References: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>
	<1225295828.10162.11.camel@localhost>
	<18425FB3-6806-4F18-9253-917862D23FA0@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <9ebd65110810300859l58bb130gb261a1eacb4bebec@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Brady Hegberg <bradyh at bitstream.net> wrote:
> Thanks for the advice...next time I do this I'll try the Apache route.
>
> I ran into various problems but made it through. We are now able to connect
> to the repo and do everything we need to.
>
> Lessons:
> 1. I was generating my keys using Puttygen - apparently Putty is the only
> app that can use these keys. I needed to generate on Linux with ssh-keygen
> and copy them to Windows.
> 2. The Linux generated keys need to be converted in Puttygen to be used in
> Putty.  However, Subclipse can use the Linux/keygen files with no problems.
> 3. Things seemed to get easier with Subclipse after I installed SVNKit.

Cool.

-- 
Adam Monsen


From twwoodward at octotec.com  Thu Oct 30 12:19:24 2008
From: twwoodward at octotec.com (TW Woodward)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:19:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help Bring Partition Table Back from the Dead
Message-ID: <4909EC9C.3090103@octotec.com>

Hello!

I need some advice.  Here is what happened:

The set-up:

Two 4 port High Point 1740 SATA controllers.  Each controller had four 
250GB drives attached to it.  Each controller was set-up as a separate 
RAID5 with one spare drive.  In Centos 5 Linux, this created two drives 
in /dev, sda and sdb.

I needed a large storage space, without (as I thought) a high level of 
safety.  So I partitioned the drives in parted and created sda1 and 
sdb1.  I then used mdadm to create a RAID0 system across these two 
drives.  The RAID device is called md0.

Everything worked fine.  It was doing exactly what it was designed for, 
which was a large (1TB) temp storage space.  Then people saw that it was 
a large storage space, so they started storing semi-critical data 
(images) there.  They stored a lot of this data 300+ GB.  Then we had a 
power surge.  The power surge damaged the power supply.  It wasn't 
damaged enough to just drop the motherboard or fry a drive, it acted 
slowly.  It started with one drive on the second controller.  It worked 
intermittently during one week (while I was on vacation).  When I got 
back to work on the machine, another drive dropped, then another in 
quick succession.

So I replaced the power supply and hooked the drives back up.  Two of 
the three dropped drives came back.  One of the drives was completely 
dead.  I was able to add a spare drive and use the High Point supplied 
GUI to rebuild the RAID5 array.

Here is where it stands:  sda and sdb appear in /dev.  That is good.  
sda1 appears in /dev. that is good.  sdb1 does not appear in /dev.  That 
is bad.  Apparently, the partition table was dropped on the second 
array.  When I run mdadm to rebuild, it tells me there is only one drive 
(sda1) in the array.  When I run parted, it cannot find any partition 
information on sdb.

So here is where I am at.  Does anybody know of a way to restore/rebuild 
this partition table?  Are the tables identical in sda1 and sdb1?  What 
I mean is, in a RAID0, are the tables written across the drives?  Can I 
copy the table from sda1 to sdb?  How do I do that?

Thanks in advance.  And I already know, it was a stupid set-up, it was a 
frail system, etc., etc.  But before you let me have it, take this into 
account:  the power surge was caused by the owner of the company 
indiscriminately throwing circuit breakers  Even better:  he was 
throwing circuit breakers with an electrician because they were trying 
to determine how to run power down to the new data center.

TW




From florin at iucha.net  Thu Oct 30 12:35:06 2008
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 12:35:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Help Bring Partition Table Back from the Dead
In-Reply-To: <4909EC9C.3090103@octotec.com>
References: <4909EC9C.3090103@octotec.com>
Message-ID: <20081030173506.GV3369@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Oct 30, 2008 at 12:19:24PM -0500, TW Woodward wrote:
> So here is where I am at.  Does anybody know of a way to restore/rebuild 
> this partition table?  Are the tables identical in sda1 and sdb1?  What 
> I mean is, in a RAID0, are the tables written across the drives?  Can I 
> copy the table from sda1 to sdb?  How do I do that?

Try TestDisk:  http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From josh at tcbug.org  Thu Oct 30 16:04:13 2008
From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 16:04:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Subversion Question
In-Reply-To: <9ebd65110810300859l58bb130gb261a1eacb4bebec@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8D038414-4D55-41BB-9F5C-E1F66C35F5E0@bitstream.net>	<1225295828.10162.11.camel@localhost>	<18425FB3-6806-4F18-9253-917862D23FA0@bitstream.net>
	<9ebd65110810300859l58bb130gb261a1eacb4bebec@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <490A214D.6010809@tcbug.org>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Adam Monsen wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 5:24 PM, Brady Hegberg <bradyh at bitstream.net> wrote:
>> Thanks for the advice...next time I do this I'll try the Apache route.
>>
>> I ran into various problems but made it through. We are now able to connect
>> to the repo and do everything we need to.
>>
>> Lessons:
>> 1. I was generating my keys using Puttygen - apparently Putty is the only
>> app that can use these keys. I needed to generate on Linux with ssh-keygen
>> and copy them to Windows.
>> 2. The Linux generated keys need to be converted in Puttygen to be used in
>> Putty.  However, Subclipse can use the Linux/keygen files with no problems.
>> 3. Things seemed to get easier with Subclipse after I installed SVNKit.
> 
> Cool.
> 

PuTTYGen provides a neat box that says.

Key suitable for pasting in to an openssh authorized_keys file or
something to that effect.

Paste that goo in to ~/.ssh/authorized_keys on the server and you can
use keys generated with PuTTYGen just fine.



- --
Thanks,

Josh Paetzel

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From webmaster at mn-linux.org  Thu Oct 30 20:16:36 2008
From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2008 20:16:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad
Message-ID: <200810310116.m9V1GaY12403@crusader.real-time.com>

New TCLUG Classified Ad

Category: Computer

Type of Ad: For Sale

Subject: 2 HP computers and some free stuff

HP Pavilion 541c
AMD Athlon 1.67MHz
512MB PC2100 RAM
40GB hard drive
USB (4 ports)
Firewire (3 ports)
Floppy
CD Burner
Currently running Kubuntu 8.04
$90
=======
HP Pavilion 540n
Intel 1.6GHz processor
512MB PC2100 RAM (2x256MB)
40GB hard drive
USB (4 ports)
Floppy
CD Burner
WinModem
WinXP Home (with recovery partition)
$100
=======
FREE STUFF!
	-> Compaq Deskpro EN400 (2)
		400MHz processor
		192MB RAM
		Two 10/100 NICs (Linux friendly)
		4 or 6GB hard drives
		Perfect for a firewall (boots off CDROM)

	-> Zip Drives and Discs
		3-250MB drives
		2-100MB drives
		1-250MB disc
		19-100MB discs

	-> Box of misc stuff
		Magnum H80 Personal Hub (8port)
		Magnum 600ES Personal Hub (6port)
		AMD Duron 750MHz processor
		CDROM optical drives (5)
		CD/DVD audio cables (bag)
		PCI sound cards (4)
		Rollerball PS2 Mouse (4)
		Compaq model x033 PCI video card
		IBM Matrox AGP video card
		Misc mouse & keyboard adapters
		40 wire IDE cables (bag)
		PCI Modems (12)

	-> Box of old hard drives (they work)
		5 - 3GB to 6GB

Seller Email address: auditodd at comcast dot net

http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi



From admin at lctn.org  Fri Oct 31 14:35:00 2008
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 14:35:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu cpan
Message-ID: <490B5DE4.10604@lctn.org>

I am trying to us cpan to install a bunch of perl modules. Just about 
every module fails to install, but will install just fine when I run 
"make" manually from /root/.cpan/build. I have build-essential 
installed. Is there anything else I need to add that will make cpan run 
properly? I have run "o conf init" to reset the config, but have the 
same problem.


This is on an Ubuntu 6 server.


From chris.lukenbill at gmail.com  Fri Oct 31 19:18:54 2008
From: chris.lukenbill at gmail.com (Chris Lukenbill)
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 2008 19:18:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for training on Linux/Apache server
Message-ID: <fdb4b04c0810311718q2f3ae822pc8f100e75d5d9f11@mail.gmail.com>

 I posted the following question to LinkedIn and received a reference to
this
mailing list as good source of information on this subject:

I am looking for mid to advanced level linux/apache server admin training in
the upper midwest US. I'm a LAMP developer and would like to increase my
knowledge in this area. Anyone have suggestions of good training facilities
in the area?
More specifically I am from Rochester, MN (just south of Minneapolis/St.
Paul) and would be interested in anything as far away as Chicago for a
training facility.  I would also be interested in online courses.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thank you in advance for any help you can give and your time,

Chris
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