From haircut at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 10:59:32 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:59:32 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, noon Message-ID: <9ebd65110809030859g84cfd6aid8076dcca25b1d9d@mail.gmail.com> Hi folks, Anyone want to meet up in Dinkytown at noon for an impromptu lunch? Last minute, I know. :) Just thought it would be cool to meet some TCLUGgers and/or Unbound Penguins face to face. I'll be on IRC if you want to check in and see if the meetup is a go. -Adam -- Adam Monsen From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Sep 3 11:08:27 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:08:27 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809031608.m83G8R030418@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: LSI SAS3041R-E One used LSI SAS3041R-E SAS/SATA PCI-e 4x host bus adapter. The card is capable of doing RAID 0, 1, 10 but it's fairly painful, software RAID is a better and faster choice. It also has known incompatabilities with intel motherboards that are supposedly fixed with a BIOS flash that you can't do while it's installed in an intel motherboard. Comes with 4 SAS cables, plus two combined SAS data/power cables. $150 Seller Email address: josh at tcbug dot org http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From mukul.dharwadkar at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 11:47:31 2008 From: mukul.dharwadkar at gmail.com (Mukul Dharwadkar) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:47:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area Message-ID: Hello All, As far as the mailing list goes, the TC LUG mailing list is quite active. However, there are not enough activities in the area that are focussed on Linux. I was kind of wondering what the charter of the group is, the mission of the group and stuff. Whatever is on the home page is very generic and does not generate a positive enthusiasm in the visitor's mind. The meetings (at least the notifications) have stopped. I was kind of wondering if we can use our group to essentially promote Linux in the twin cities area. I am a member of the Fedora Ambassadors group & have seen a lot of emails about Feodra Launch parties, promotional events etc. I know that there are budgets available for promoting Fedora in local area. Let me know if someone is interested in starting something here. We have a very good open source proponent here in the form of U of M. We can leverage it as well. -- Smile!!! :) It improves your face value... Visit me at http://www.dharwadkar.com http://www.dharwadkar.org Sister Site: http://www.saraswatibhuvan.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080903/4ab60086/attachment.htm From haircut at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 11:51:46 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:51:46 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday Message-ID: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Adam Monsen wrote: > Anyone want to meet up in Dinkytown at noon for an impromptu lunch? > Last minute, I know. :) > > Just thought it would be cool to meet some TCLUGgers and/or Unbound > Penguins face to face. > > I'll be on IRC if you want to check in and see if the meetup is a go. Turns out I'm hungry and didn't get any takers for today. Here's a new idea: tomorrow, 11:30am, Duffy's Dinkytown Pizza. Yummy pizza by the slice, and Linuxy chit-chat. jima might be able to make it. http://chow.com/places/7724 I added ubuntu-us-mn since I've heard there are some cool folks on that list too! Don't worry if you miss this one or don't want to eat at Duffy's... hopefully we'll get some more impromptu lunches going. -- Adam Monsen From cschumann at twp-llc.com Wed Sep 3 13:18:20 2008 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:18:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6204.192.28.2.17.1220465900.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:47:31 -0500 > From: "Mukul Dharwadkar" > As far as the mailing list goes, the TC LUG mailing list is quite > active. However, there are not enough activities in the area that are > focussed on Linux. I agree with you. The Penguins Unbound is a great thing to see, but I've been unable to make it to an event. I don't think you'd be stepping on toes if you want to improve things, like the web site, or having more activity, but this is a very informal group. There may not be a charter or other guiding documents. It's just a bunch of folks with a common interest. I'm a fan of Fedora, and of ThinkPads, and I'd be up for an install fest, and coming to events, but my plate is too full to organize anything for quite some time. One thing I don't like is the UofM for a meeting site. There's no free parking or free WiFi, and for me, it's too far to bus. Chris From jeruvin at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 14:19:22 2008 From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:19:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: <6204.192.28.2.17.1220465900.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> References: <6204.192.28.2.17.1220465900.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: <6eb23c4e0809031219x3a8e8cc2we882b830ca9f293e@mail.gmail.com> Having some events that are in different areas would be nice. Nothing comes to mind off the top of my head, but If something happens in the western suburbs I may be able to make it. Jason On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 1:18 PM, Chris Schumann wrote: > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:47:31 -0500 > > From: "Mukul Dharwadkar" > > > As far as the mailing list goes, the TC LUG mailing list is quite > > active. However, there are not enough activities in the area that are > > focussed on Linux. > > I agree with you. The Penguins Unbound is a great thing to see, but I've > been unable to make it to an event. > > I don't think you'd be stepping on toes if you want to improve things, > like the web site, or having more activity, but this is a very informal > group. There may not be a charter or other guiding documents. It's just a > bunch of folks with a common interest. > > I'm a fan of Fedora, and of ThinkPads, and I'd be up for an install fest, > and coming to events, but my plate is too full to organize anything for > quite some time. > > One thing I don't like is the UofM for a meeting site. There's no free > parking or free WiFi, and for me, it's too far to bus. > > Chris > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080903/cb3be664/attachment.htm From cncole at earthlink.net Wed Sep 3 14:25:04 2008 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:25:04 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: <6204.192.28.2.17.1220465900.squirrel@alpha.twp-llc.com> Message-ID: TCLUG has no "organization" or "mission" and is only a mailing list. Many of us will not go to the U area, and parking is a major reason. Choosing that area makes the activity essentailly a student/staff function and excludes most others. A location near the TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and several lunch/dinner places around there also have free WiFi. Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... Chuck > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Chris Schumann > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:18 PM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area > > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:47:31 -0500 > > From: "Mukul Dharwadkar" > > > As far as the mailing list goes, the TC LUG mailing list is quite > > active. However, there are not enough activities in the area that are > > focussed on Linux. > > I agree with you. The Penguins Unbound is a great thing to see, but I've > been unable to make it to an event. > > I don't think you'd be stepping on toes if you want to improve things, > like the web site, or having more activity, but this is a very informal > group. There may not be a charter or other guiding documents. It's just a > bunch of folks with a common interest. > > I'm a fan of Fedora, and of ThinkPads, and I'd be up for an install fest, > and coming to events, but my plate is too full to organize anything for > quite some time. > > One thing I don't like is the UofM for a meeting site. There's no free > parking or free WiFi, and for me, it's too far to bus. > > Chris From tclug at beitsahour.net Wed Sep 3 14:42:03 2008 From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:42:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BEE88B.3040602@beitsahour.net> Chuck Cole wrote: > TCLUG has no "organization" or "mission" and is only a mailing list. Many of us will not go to the U area, and parking is a major > reason. Choosing that area makes the activity essentailly a student/staff function and excludes most others. A location near the > TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and several lunch/dinner places around there also have free WiFi. > Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... Since the TCLUG has no organizaion or mission anyone and everyone has always been free to schedule and host meetings, installfests and linux themed naked mile runs. just like most free software projects. so if you do not like where meetings are held (or even if they are) go ahead and schedule one, find a speaker or just have a general talk. popularity of your venue and your talks and your amenities will decide where people will go. The only "restriction" is to be nice and not schedule things when somebody else already has. so in other words, put up or shut up. From jima at beer.tclug.org Wed Sep 3 15:23:29 2008 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:23:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> Chuck Cole wrote: > TCLUG has no "organization" or "mission" and is only a mailing list. Many of us will not go to the U area, and parking is a major > reason. Choosing that area makes the activity essentailly a student/staff function and excludes most others. A location near the > TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and several lunch/dinner places around there also have free WiFi. > Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... I doubt many buffets will offer free WiFi; the main appeal of it for businesses is to keep customers happy and in the store, whereas keeping diners in a buffet for longer is contrary to their business model. Or maybe that's just my take. I dunno. Jima From teeahr1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 15:38:57 2008 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:38:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> References: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> Message-ID: <200809031538.57352.teeahr1@gmail.com> On Wednesday September 3 2008 15:23:29 Jima wrote: > Chuck Cole wrote: > > TCLUG has no "organization" or "mission" and is only a mailing list. > > Many of us will not go to the U area, and parking is a major reason. > > Choosing that area makes the activity essentailly a student/staff > > function and excludes most others. A location near the TIES site > > (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and several > > lunch/dinner places around there also have free WiFi. Maybe there's a > > place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... > > I doubt many buffets will offer free WiFi; the main appeal of it for > businesses is to keep customers happy and in the store, whereas keeping > diners in a buffet for longer is contrary to their business model. > Or maybe that's just my take. I dunno. I'd be happy with bottomless coffee :) -pete From cncole at earthlink.net Wed Sep 3 17:02:29 2008 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:02:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Jima [mailto:jima at beer.tclug.org] > Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:23 PM > To: Chuck Cole > Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area > > > Chuck Cole wrote: > > A location near the > > TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and several lunch/dinner places around there also have > free WiFi. Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... > > I doubt many buffets will offer free WiFi; the main appeal of it for > businesses is to keep customers happy and in the store, whereas keeping > diners in a buffet for longer is contrary to their business model. > Or maybe that's just my take. I dunno. Some do and some don't. Competition and technology emergence has made that business model less successful in more recent times. It's become hard to keep my smartphone's contact list up-to-date and searchable for WiFi spots in various areas of town. Q-cumber's on France in Edina is one that's all buffet, Bakers Square sites have "WiPie" and longer hours than coffee shops, but no buffets. Broadway Pizza (several) and Old Chicago Pizza (several.. one at Har Mar near TIES) are examples of some that do have WiFi and lunchtime buffets. The Dunn Brothers has sandwiches and soups, and several are adjacent (with WiFi spillover) to inexpensive restaurants. CiCi's Pizza buffet in Eagan is a near an Old Chicago, so a temporary WiFi bridge woudn't be hard if CiCi's doesn't have WiFi of their own yet. For a big place, WiFi is a matter of getting higher occupancy. It's also a means of getting revenue outside mealtime peaks, or being a venue for "business lunch", etc. Some places have ways to limit WiFi "camping out" at peak hours, but most are just glad for business and "campers" usually aren't every day customers. I'm surprised at how many dining places now do offer free WiFi. Seems like odds are almost 50/50 these days, but not as good for WiFi plus buffet. Baja Grills would seem to be a smaller fast food model that would want quick in / quick out, but they have WiFi too (and are also at Har Mar). Chuck From j at packetgod.com Wed Sep 3 20:21:41 2008 From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:21:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: References: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0809031821o73dffe4y53e2ef2ce581766a@mail.gmail.com> I'm thinking coffee night at the Dunn brothers at 50th and Xerxes next Wednesday night from say 4pm to whenever. Maybe they will even let us order pizza or Jimmie Johns or something like that. Prizes for the geekiest t-shirt. I expect to come in first and second as I'm going to bring a spare... Anybody up for it? --j On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jima [mailto:jima at beer.tclug.org] >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:23 PM >> To: Chuck Cole >> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area >> >> >> Chuck Cole wrote: > >> > A location near the >> > TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and several lunch/dinner places around there also have >> free WiFi. Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... >> >> I doubt many buffets will offer free WiFi; the main appeal of it for >> businesses is to keep customers happy and in the store, whereas keeping >> diners in a buffet for longer is contrary to their business model. >> Or maybe that's just my take. I dunno. > > Some do and some don't. Competition and technology emergence has made that business model less successful in more recent times. > It's become hard to keep my smartphone's contact list up-to-date and searchable for WiFi spots in various areas of town. > > Q-cumber's on France in Edina is one that's all buffet, Bakers Square sites have "WiPie" and longer hours than coffee shops, but no > buffets. Broadway Pizza (several) and Old Chicago Pizza (several.. one at Har Mar near TIES) are examples of some that do have WiFi > and lunchtime buffets. The Dunn Brothers has sandwiches and soups, and several are adjacent (with WiFi spillover) to inexpensive > restaurants. CiCi's Pizza buffet in Eagan is a near an Old Chicago, so a temporary WiFi bridge woudn't be hard if CiCi's doesn't > have WiFi of their own yet. For a big place, WiFi is a matter of getting higher occupancy. It's also a means of getting revenue > outside mealtime peaks, or being a venue for "business lunch", etc. Some places have ways to limit WiFi "camping out" at peak > hours, but most are just glad for business and "campers" usually aren't every day customers. I'm surprised at how many dining > places now do offer free WiFi. Seems like odds are almost 50/50 these days, but not as good for WiFi plus buffet. Baja Grills > would seem to be a smaller fast food model that would want quick in / quick out, but they have WiFi too (and are also at Har Mar). > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From haircut at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 07:51:51 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 07:51:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday In-Reply-To: References: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9ebd65110809040551l10c5f6f0v9d01d8ec470fe621@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Joshua Ellis wrote: > I'll be there for sure. I can always swing for Duffy's or Mesa Pizza, and > I'm excited to finally meet some folks from the LoCo! Hope to see more of > you there. Great! See you there, Josh. A couple other folks said they would show up, too. I can already smell the piping hot pizza. -- Adam Monsen From paintballjosh at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 12:12:19 2008 From: paintballjosh at gmail.com (Joshua Ellis) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 12:12:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday In-Reply-To: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I'll be there for sure. I can always swing for Duffy's or Mesa Pizza, and I'm excited to finally meet some folks from the LoCo! Hope to see more of you there. - Josh On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Adam Monsen wrote: > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Adam Monsen wrote: > > Anyone want to meet up in Dinkytown at noon for an impromptu lunch? > > Last minute, I know. :) > > > > Just thought it would be cool to meet some TCLUGgers and/or Unbound > > Penguins face to face. > > > > I'll be on IRC if you want to check in and see if the meetup is a go. > > Turns out I'm hungry and didn't get any takers for today. > > Here's a new idea: tomorrow, 11:30am, Duffy's Dinkytown Pizza. Yummy > pizza by the slice, and Linuxy chit-chat. jima might be able to make > it. http://chow.com/places/7724 > > I added ubuntu-us-mn since I've heard there are some cool folks on > that list too! > > Don't worry if you miss this one or don't want to eat at Duffy's... > hopefully we'll get some more impromptu lunches going. > > -- > Adam Monsen > > -- > ubuntu-us-mn mailing list > ubuntu-us-mn at lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-mn > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080903/0c35567c/attachment.htm From jeruvin at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 11:16:02 2008 From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:16:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday In-Reply-To: <9ebd65110809040551l10c5f6f0v9d01d8ec470fe621@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> <9ebd65110809040551l10c5f6f0v9d01d8ec470fe621@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6eb23c4e0809040916t7a3d4b41lacd6cf1896feac21@mail.gmail.com> I'm not able to make it today, but hopefully the next one. Jason On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 7:51 AM, Adam Monsen wrote: > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Joshua Ellis wrote: > > I'll be there for sure. I can always swing for Duffy's or Mesa Pizza, and > > I'm excited to finally meet some folks from the LoCo! Hope to see more of > > you there. > > Great! See you there, Josh. A couple other folks said they would show up, > too. > > I can already smell the piping hot pizza. > > -- > Adam Monsen > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080904/056038b1/attachment.htm From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Sep 4 11:16:55 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:16:55 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday In-Reply-To: References: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809041116.55386.tclug@lizakowski.com> My office is directly across the street from Duffy's. Quite convenient. I have a client presentation soon after, but I can stop in for a bit. This lunch/dinner idea seems interesting. I'm curious to see if it starts something. Jeremy On Wednesday 03 September 2008 12:12:19 pm Joshua Ellis wrote: > I'll be there for sure. I can always swing for Duffy's or Mesa Pizza, and > I'm excited to finally meet some folks from the LoCo! Hope to see more of > you there. > > - Josh > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 11:51 AM, Adam Monsen wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 10:59 AM, Adam Monsen wrote: > > > Anyone want to meet up in Dinkytown at noon for an impromptu lunch? > > > Last minute, I know. :) > > > > > > Just thought it would be cool to meet some TCLUGgers and/or Unbound > > > Penguins face to face. > > > > > > I'll be on IRC if you want to check in and see if the meetup is a go. > > > > Turns out I'm hungry and didn't get any takers for today. > > > > Here's a new idea: tomorrow, 11:30am, Duffy's Dinkytown Pizza. Yummy > > pizza by the slice, and Linuxy chit-chat. jima might be able to make > > it. http://chow.com/places/7724 > > > > I added ubuntu-us-mn since I've heard there are some cool folks on > > that list too! > > > > Don't worry if you miss this one or don't want to eat at Duffy's... > > hopefully we'll get some more impromptu lunches going. > > > > -- > > Adam Monsen > > > > -- > > ubuntu-us-mn mailing list > > ubuntu-us-mn at lists.ubuntu.com > > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-mn From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Sep 4 11:18:31 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:18:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0809031821o73dffe4y53e2ef2ce581766a@mail.gmail.com> References: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> <38aa5b6a0809031821o73dffe4y53e2ef2ce581766a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809041118.31668.tclug@lizakowski.com> Maybe Tues or Thurs? On Wednesday 03 September 2008 8:21:41 pm J Cruit wrote: > I'm thinking coffee night at the Dunn brothers at 50th and Xerxes next > Wednesday night from say 4pm to whenever. Maybe they will even let us > order pizza or Jimmie Johns or something like that. > > Prizes for the geekiest t-shirt. I expect to come in first and second > as I'm going to bring a spare... > > Anybody up for it? > > --j > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Jima [mailto:jima at beer.tclug.org] > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:23 PM > >> To: Chuck Cole > >> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area > >> > >> Chuck Cole wrote: > >> > A location near the > >> > TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and > >> > several lunch/dinner places around there also have > >> > >> free WiFi. Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... > >> > >> I doubt many buffets will offer free WiFi; the main appeal of it for > >> businesses is to keep customers happy and in the store, whereas keeping > >> diners in a buffet for longer is contrary to their business model. > >> Or maybe that's just my take. I dunno. > > > > Some do and some don't. Competition and technology emergence has made > > that business model less successful in more recent times. It's become > > hard to keep my smartphone's contact list up-to-date and searchable for > > WiFi spots in various areas of town. > > > > Q-cumber's on France in Edina is one that's all buffet, Bakers Square > > sites have "WiPie" and longer hours than coffee shops, but no buffets. > > Broadway Pizza (several) and Old Chicago Pizza (several.. one at Har Mar > > near TIES) are examples of some that do have WiFi and lunchtime buffets. > > The Dunn Brothers has sandwiches and soups, and several are adjacent > > (with WiFi spillover) to inexpensive restaurants. CiCi's Pizza buffet in > > Eagan is a near an Old Chicago, so a temporary WiFi bridge woudn't be > > hard if CiCi's doesn't have WiFi of their own yet. For a big place, WiFi > > is a matter of getting higher occupancy. It's also a means of getting > > revenue outside mealtime peaks, or being a venue for "business lunch", > > etc. Some places have ways to limit WiFi "camping out" at peak hours, > > but most are just glad for business and "campers" usually aren't every > > day customers. I'm surprised at how many dining places now do offer free > > WiFi. Seems like odds are almost 50/50 these days, but not as good for > > WiFi plus buffet. Baja Grills would seem to be a smaller fast food model > > that would want quick in / quick out, but they have WiFi too (and are > > also at Har Mar). > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From jeruvin at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 11:28:17 2008 From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:28:17 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: <200809041118.31668.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> <38aa5b6a0809031821o73dffe4y53e2ef2ce581766a@mail.gmail.com> <200809041118.31668.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <6eb23c4e0809040928v10fbb5fdsce2148bd9407c4a4@mail.gmail.com> I second a Thursday night. On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Jeremy wrote: > > Maybe Tues or Thurs? > > On Wednesday 03 September 2008 8:21:41 pm J Cruit wrote: > > I'm thinking coffee night at the Dunn brothers at 50th and Xerxes next > > Wednesday night from say 4pm to whenever. Maybe they will even let us > > order pizza or Jimmie Johns or something like that. > > > > Prizes for the geekiest t-shirt. I expect to come in first and second > > as I'm going to bring a spare... > > > > Anybody up for it? > > > > --j > > > > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Jima [mailto:jima at beer.tclug.org] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:23 PM > > >> To: Chuck Cole > > >> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area > > >> > > >> Chuck Cole wrote: > > >> > A location near the > > >> > TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and > > >> > several lunch/dinner places around there also have > > >> > > >> free WiFi. Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... > > >> > > >> I doubt many buffets will offer free WiFi; the main appeal of it for > > >> businesses is to keep customers happy and in the store, whereas > keeping > > >> diners in a buffet for longer is contrary to their business model. > > >> Or maybe that's just my take. I dunno. > > > > > > Some do and some don't. Competition and technology emergence has made > > > that business model less successful in more recent times. It's become > > > hard to keep my smartphone's contact list up-to-date and searchable for > > > WiFi spots in various areas of town. > > > > > > Q-cumber's on France in Edina is one that's all buffet, Bakers Square > > > sites have "WiPie" and longer hours than coffee shops, but no buffets. > > > Broadway Pizza (several) and Old Chicago Pizza (several.. one at Har > Mar > > > near TIES) are examples of some that do have WiFi and lunchtime > buffets. > > > The Dunn Brothers has sandwiches and soups, and several are adjacent > > > (with WiFi spillover) to inexpensive restaurants. CiCi's Pizza buffet > in > > > Eagan is a near an Old Chicago, so a temporary WiFi bridge woudn't be > > > hard if CiCi's doesn't have WiFi of their own yet. For a big place, > WiFi > > > is a matter of getting higher occupancy. It's also a means of getting > > > revenue outside mealtime peaks, or being a venue for "business lunch", > > > etc. Some places have ways to limit WiFi "camping out" at peak hours, > > > but most are just glad for business and "campers" usually aren't every > > > day customers. I'm surprised at how many dining places now do offer > free > > > WiFi. Seems like odds are almost 50/50 these days, but not as good for > > > WiFi plus buffet. Baja Grills would seem to be a smaller fast food > model > > > that would want quick in / quick out, but they have WiFi too (and are > > > also at Har Mar). > > > > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080904/439739ca/attachment-0001.htm From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Sep 4 11:12:07 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:12:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809041112.07274.tclug@lizakowski.com> Penguins Unbound has been meeting at TIES. TCLUG has been meeting at UofM. Some people prefer one or the other. Jeremy On Wednesday 03 September 2008 2:25:04 pm Chuck Cole wrote: > TCLUG has no "organization" or "mission" and is only a mailing list. Many > of us will not go to the U area, and parking is a major reason. Choosing > that area makes the activity essentailly a student/staff function and > excludes most others. A location near the TIES site (Snelling at > Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, and several lunch/dinner places > around there also have free WiFi. Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet > and WiFi... > > Chuck > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Chris Schumann Sent: > > Wednesday, September 03, 2008 1:18 PM > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area > > > > > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:47:31 -0500 > > > From: "Mukul Dharwadkar" > > > > > > As far as the mailing list goes, the TC LUG mailing list is quite > > > active. However, there are not enough activities in the area that are > > > focussed on Linux. > > > > I agree with you. The Penguins Unbound is a great thing to see, but I've > > been unable to make it to an event. > > > > I don't think you'd be stepping on toes if you want to improve things, > > like the web site, or having more activity, but this is a very informal > > group. There may not be a charter or other guiding documents. It's just a > > bunch of folks with a common interest. > > > > I'm a fan of Fedora, and of ThinkPads, and I'd be up for an install fest, > > and coming to events, but my plate is too full to organize anything for > > quite some time. > > > > One thing I don't like is the UofM for a meeting site. There's no free > > parking or free WiFi, and for me, it's too far to bus. > > > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From j at packetgod.com Thu Sep 4 11:50:53 2008 From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:50:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area In-Reply-To: <6eb23c4e0809040928v10fbb5fdsce2148bd9407c4a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <48BEF241.1020804@beer.tclug.org> <38aa5b6a0809031821o73dffe4y53e2ef2ce581766a@mail.gmail.com> <200809041118.31668.tclug@lizakowski.com> <6eb23c4e0809040928v10fbb5fdsce2148bd9407c4a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0809040950r44af5059i81dceba40bc44efc@mail.gmail.com> Well hey, Thursday night sounds great too :) On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:28 AM, jason reynolds wrote: > I second a Thursday night. > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Jeremy wrote: >> >> Maybe Tues or Thurs? >> >> On Wednesday 03 September 2008 8:21:41 pm J Cruit wrote: >> > I'm thinking coffee night at the Dunn brothers at 50th and Xerxes next >> > Wednesday night from say 4pm to whenever. Maybe they will even let us >> > order pizza or Jimmie Johns or something like that. >> > >> > Prizes for the geekiest t-shirt. I expect to come in first and second >> > as I'm going to bring a spare... >> > >> > Anybody up for it? >> > >> > --j >> > >> > On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 5:02 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: Jima [mailto:jima at beer.tclug.org] >> > >> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2008 3:23 PM >> > >> To: Chuck Cole >> > >> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> > >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux activity in the Twin Cities Area >> > >> >> > >> Chuck Cole wrote: >> > >> > A location near the >> > >> > TIES site (Snelling at Larpenteur) is a good compromise for all, >> > >> > and >> > >> > several lunch/dinner places around there also have >> > >> >> > >> free WiFi. Maybe there's a place with a cheap buffet and WiFi... >> > >> >> > >> I doubt many buffets will offer free WiFi; the main appeal of it >> > >> for >> > >> businesses is to keep customers happy and in the store, whereas >> > >> keeping >> > >> diners in a buffet for longer is contrary to their business model. >> > >> Or maybe that's just my take. I dunno. >> > > >> > > Some do and some don't. Competition and technology emergence has made >> > > that business model less successful in more recent times. It's become >> > > hard to keep my smartphone's contact list up-to-date and searchable >> > > for >> > > WiFi spots in various areas of town. >> > > >> > > Q-cumber's on France in Edina is one that's all buffet, Bakers Square >> > > sites have "WiPie" and longer hours than coffee shops, but no buffets. >> > > Broadway Pizza (several) and Old Chicago Pizza (several.. one at Har >> > > Mar >> > > near TIES) are examples of some that do have WiFi and lunchtime >> > > buffets. >> > > The Dunn Brothers has sandwiches and soups, and several are adjacent >> > > (with WiFi spillover) to inexpensive restaurants. CiCi's Pizza buffet >> > > in >> > > Eagan is a near an Old Chicago, so a temporary WiFi bridge woudn't be >> > > hard if CiCi's doesn't have WiFi of their own yet. For a big place, >> > > WiFi >> > > is a matter of getting higher occupancy. It's also a means of getting >> > > revenue outside mealtime peaks, or being a venue for "business lunch", >> > > etc. Some places have ways to limit WiFi "camping out" at peak hours, >> > > but most are just glad for business and "campers" usually aren't every >> > > day customers. I'm surprised at how many dining places now do offer >> > > free >> > > WiFi. Seems like odds are almost 50/50 these days, but not as good >> > > for >> > > WiFi plus buffet. Baja Grills would seem to be a smaller fast food >> > > model >> > > that would want quick in / quick out, but they have WiFi too (and are >> > > also at Har Mar). >> > > >> > > >> > > Chuck >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > _______________________________________________ >> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > From jpeacock at rjssoftware.com Thu Sep 4 14:55:33 2008 From: jpeacock at rjssoftware.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:55:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] For the TC-LUGers that are interested: Free demo/training of Sophos in Burnsville Message-ID: Hey everyone Yes, I work for RJS Software which resells Sophos, so while I don't think I'm being biased, you be the judge :) Sophos is an industrial-grade anti-virus/malware/etc solution. I'd never heard of it before so I was pretty skeptical about it initially. Turns out, as they market exclusively to corporate accounts, you'll never see it in retail and rarely in a residential situation. Nevertheless, once I started digging into it a bit, it turned out to be pretty damn cool. It's cross platform, handy if you guys are running Linux servers that can, in turn, touch other servers, or have Macs on your network, or just want to move away from Symantec or something. It's way less system intensive on a workstation level than my experiences with McAfee and Norton (although I haven't had a chance yet to bang on it with my Mac or Ubuntu boxes). So, for whoever's interested in checking it out, learning more, etc...it's a free event, 8am to 12pm next Tuesday at the RJS Office in Burnsville. For directions/registration/more event info try the link below: http://guest.cvent.com/i.aspx?1Q,P1,89B8B8C5-45B9-4DB6-AD88-0EE4D0CE0933 Oh and apparently there's going to be a drawing for a Wii afterwards. Seeing as, at the moment, we don't have a ton of people coming (~15 or 20 are already registered atm), your odds are pretty good. :P -- Jordan Peacock -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080904/fb2c70c2/attachment.htm From haircut at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 15:11:19 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 15:11:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday In-Reply-To: <9ebd65110809040551l10c5f6f0v9d01d8ec470fe621@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> <9ebd65110809040551l10c5f6f0v9d01d8ec470fe621@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9ebd65110809041311h38c2f8bcn7a28e0333c698c27@mail.gmail.com> In total, five folks showed up and we had some fun conversations on programming, computer history, and Linux. It was nice to meet some of you face to face, and I look forward to the next meeting! attendees: Josh, Josh #2, Tom, jima, Adam. Two folks came via the MN Ubuntu list, and two via the TCLUG list. -- Adam Monsen From webmaster at mn-linux.org Thu Sep 4 17:37:28 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:37:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809042237.m84MbSs29496@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Want for Free Subject: looking for kvm switch I am looking for a KVM switch with cables anyone may not be using. Contact me at jglouisjr at gmail dot com. If you insist on throwing out a price please be kind. Thanks, Jim Seller Email address: jglouisjr at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Sep 4 19:53:18 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 19:53:18 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday In-Reply-To: <9ebd65110809041311h38c2f8bcn7a28e0333c698c27@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> <9ebd65110809040551l10c5f6f0v9d01d8ec470fe621@mail.gmail.com> <9ebd65110809041311h38c2f8bcn7a28e0333c698c27@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809041953.18257.tclug@lizakowski.com> > Here's a new idea: tomorrow, 11:30am That was today? On Thursday 04 September 2008 3:11:19 pm Adam Monsen wrote: > In total, five folks showed up and we had some fun conversations on > programming, computer history, and Linux. It was nice to meet some of > you face to face, and I look forward to the next meeting! > > attendees: Josh, Josh #2, Tom, jima, Adam. > > Two folks came via the MN Ubuntu list, and two via the TCLUG list. From tonyyarusso at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 01:04:02 2008 From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 01:04:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] impromptu lunch in Dinkytown, 11:30am Thursday In-Reply-To: <6eb23c4e0809040916t7a3d4b41lacd6cf1896feac21@mail.gmail.com> References: <9ebd65110809030951w10d9dc87w8a68d67776498488@mail.gmail.com> <9ebd65110809040551l10c5f6f0v9d01d8ec470fe621@mail.gmail.com> <6eb23c4e0809040916t7a3d4b41lacd6cf1896feac21@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <254fef0f0809042304q71076870m30422732fbcfebcf@mail.gmail.com> I also wasn't able to be there this time, but am very interested in seeing more of this kind of thing. Perhaps I'll schedule one myself once I figure out how my days are going to go for the fall. -- Tony Yarusso http://tonyyarusso.com/ From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 10:33:33 2008 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:33:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] For the TC-LUGers that are interested: Free demo/training of Sophos in Burnsville In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82f04dc40809050833j75e5847aw2d0e05af1f08810a@mail.gmail.com> Huh. That's funny. The address for the seminar has you within 100 yards of where I am sitting right now, and yet I didn't even know there was another software company near by.... On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Jordan Peacock wrote: > Hey everyone > Yes, I work for RJS Software which resells Sophos, so while I > don't think I'm being biased, you be the judge :) > Sophos is an industrial-grade anti-virus/malware/etc solution. I'd never > heard of it before so I was pretty skeptical about it initially. Turns out, > as they market exclusively to corporate accounts, you'll never see it in > retail and rarely in a residential situation. Nevertheless, once I started > digging into it a bit, it turned out to be pretty damn cool. > It's cross platform, handy if you guys are running Linux servers that can, > in turn, touch other servers, or have Macs on your network, or just want to > move away from Symantec or something. It's way less system intensive on a > workstation level than my experiences with McAfee and Norton (although I > haven't had a chance yet to bang on it with my Mac or Ubuntu boxes). > So, for whoever's interested in checking it out, learning more, etc...it's a > free event, 8am to 12pm next Tuesday at the RJS Office in Burnsville. For > directions/registration/more event info try the link below: > http://guest.cvent.com/i.aspx?1Q,P1,89B8B8C5-45B9-4DB6-AD88-0EE4D0CE0933 > > Oh and apparently there's going to be a drawing for a Wii afterwards. Seeing > as, at the moment, we don't have a ton of people coming (~15 or 20 are > already registered atm), your odds are pretty good. :P > > -- > Jordan Peacock > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > From jpeacock at rjssoftware.com Fri Sep 5 10:46:02 2008 From: jpeacock at rjssoftware.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:46:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] For the TC-LUGers that are interested: Free demo/training of Sophos in Burnsville In-Reply-To: <82f04dc40809050833j75e5847aw2d0e05af1f08810a@mail.gmail.com> References: <82f04dc40809050833j75e5847aw2d0e05af1f08810a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Just moved in a couple weeks ago. It's mostly an AS/400 (or iSeries, or i5, or whatever the hell IBM is calling them these days) software shop, or Windows software that interfaces with an AS/400, although we are starting to do things on Linux as well. Used to be over by Burnsville Center in those squat brown offices on Burnhaven. Oh yeah, and don't be deceived by the Google Maps directions; use the ones on the link if you are planning to come. Judicial Road does a weird circling around are there are apparently two points of intersection between Judicial and Burnsville Pkwy/Southcross....and Google Maps picks the wrong one. :) What company are you with, Dan? Jordan Peacock On Fri, Sep 5, 2008 at 10:33 AM, Dan Armbrust < daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com> wrote: > Huh. That's funny. The address for the seminar has you within 100 > yards of where I am sitting right now, and yet I didn't even know > there was another software company near by.... > > > > On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 2:55 PM, Jordan Peacock > wrote: > > Hey everyone > > Yes, I work for RJS Software which resells Sophos, so while I > > don't think I'm being biased, you be the judge :) > > Sophos is an industrial-grade anti-virus/malware/etc solution. I'd never > > heard of it before so I was pretty skeptical about it initially. Turns > out, > > as they market exclusively to corporate accounts, you'll never see it in > > retail and rarely in a residential situation. Nevertheless, once I > started > > digging into it a bit, it turned out to be pretty damn cool. > > It's cross platform, handy if you guys are running Linux servers that > can, > > in turn, touch other servers, or have Macs on your network, or just want > to > > move away from Symantec or something. It's way less system intensive on a > > workstation level than my experiences with McAfee and Norton (although I > > haven't had a chance yet to bang on it with my Mac or Ubuntu boxes). > > So, for whoever's interested in checking it out, learning more, > etc...it's a > > free event, 8am to 12pm next Tuesday at the RJS Office in Burnsville. For > > directions/registration/more event info try the link below: > > http://guest.cvent.com/i.aspx?1Q,P1,89B8B8C5-45B9-4DB6-AD88-0EE4D0CE0933 > > > > Oh and apparently there's going to be a drawing for a Wii afterwards. > Seeing > > as, at the moment, we don't have a ton of people coming (~15 or 20 are > > already registered atm), your odds are pretty good. :P > > > > -- > > Jordan Peacock > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080905/d9fe7de9/attachment.htm From mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 15:53:22 2008 From: mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com (Mark Mitchell) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 15:53:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Odd web-browsing problem. Message-ID: <200809061553.22747.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> I'm borrowing a neighbor's wifi connection for a few days until my DSL is set up at a new address, and I'm having an odd problem. Certain web pages won't load on my debian testing box running firefox/iceweasel, but the same page loads fine on my work laptop running windows/firefox. And the web pages that won't load aren't obscure or flash infested livejournal/facebook/youtube pages, Google and Wikipedia won't load. The error I get is either "Iceweasel can't establish a connection to the server at www.google.com", or "The server at is taking too long.". I can ping and traceroute to the web server in question from the linux box every time. I have access to the wireless router, and set the debian testing machine as in the DMZ, and that doesn't change anything (except that torrents are working now). The windows machine is not DMZed, and pages load fine there, though I have noticed that some pages seem to take a while to start rendering (30+ sec). My best guess is that the remote sever is asking for something from my browser in order to initiate the connection and my browser isn't supplying it. I've just dist-upgraded, and made no difference. (firefox 3.0.1) Any clues? From strayf at freeshell.org Sat Sep 6 18:45:12 2008 From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:45:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Odd web-browsing problem. In-Reply-To: <200809061553.22747.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> References: <200809061553.22747.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C31608.7020401@freeshell.org> Mark Mitchell wrote: > [...] > Certain web pages won't load on my debian testing box running > firefox/iceweasel, but the same page loads fine on my work laptop running > windows/firefox. > [...] Have you tried other browsers on the debian box? links/elinks/lynx, opera, konqueror, or epiphany? That should tell you whether it's a browser or network issue. -Steve From mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:13:26 2008 From: mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com (Mark Mitchell) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:13:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Odd web-browsing problem. In-Reply-To: <48C31608.7020401@freeshell.org> References: <200809061553.22747.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> <48C31608.7020401@freeshell.org> Message-ID: <200809071913.26920.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> On Saturday 06 September 2008 06:45:12 pm Steve Cayford wrote: > Mark Mitchell wrote: > > [...] > > Certain web pages won't load on my debian testing box running > > firefox/iceweasel, but the same page loads fine on my work laptop running > > windows/firefox. > > [...] > > Have you tried other browsers on the debian box? links/elinks/lynx, > opera, konqueror, or epiphany? That should tell you whether it's a > browser or network issue. > That was the hint I needed. I hadn't thought to check, konqueror had no problems. Turned out that I needed to clear firefox's network cache. Edit > Preferences > Advanced > Network > Offline Storage - click 'Clear Now'. Working now. Thanks, Mark From andyzib at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 19:38:39 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 19:38:39 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Odd web-browsing problem. In-Reply-To: <200809071913.26920.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> References: <200809061553.22747.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> <48C31608.7020401@freeshell.org> <200809071913.26920.mark.russel.mitchell@gmail.com> Message-ID: Try: cat /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn If it returns 1, do echo 0 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/tcp_ecn Try website again. If it works, your neighbor is using a router that doesn't know what to do with Explicit Network Congestion ICMP messages. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080907/2bba2a5f/attachment.htm From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Sep 7 22:04:15 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 22:04:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809080304.m8834Fs24633@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: 2 GB DDR2 (2x1) RAM - AM2 4200 3 things for sale that I just pulled from my system on Sat: - ($18) 1GB Super Talent DDR2-533 PC4200 w/ heatspreader - ($18) 1GB Super Talent DDR2-533 PC4200 w/ heatspreader - ($30) CPU only - AMD Athlon 64 X2 4200+ Socket AM2 2.2GHz Email me: erick at allsystemsdown.com or just reply to the ad. Seller Email address: erick at allsystemsdown dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Sep 9 08:14:48 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 08:14:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809091314.m89DEmv20338@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Dell Inspiron 5100 Dell Inspiron 5100 2.4GHz Pentium 4 512mb RAM 40gb hdd Broadcom wireless mini-pci Very clean and display is perfect. Battery holds charge for > 1 hour. Currently has XP Home on it. $275 Seller Email address: kl3096 at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From cdf123 at cdf123.net Tue Sep 9 09:53:22 2008 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 09:53:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] SATA Card Issues Message-ID: <48C68DE2.60006@cdf123.net> Hi All, I'm currently using 2 500G SATA drives for my backups at the office. Every morning I plug them in and bacula copies all of it's backup media onto them. Lately I've been getting a lot of problems with them. The SATA card is a Silicon Image SiI 3512 using the sata_sil driver. I'm assuming it's the card that is failing. I've had IO errors in bacula, but a power cycle of the drive will fix it. I have udev set up to add aliases for the drives, and attach the dm-crypt luks encryption automatically, and sometimes the luks system can't open the partition. I've also seen times that after plugging in the drive it won't show up at all in /proc/partitions, and these are getting much more common, and usually requires me to reboot the whole system. These used to happen about once every three months so it wasn't much of an issue, but now I'm rebooting once a week. I have the same sata_sil card at home, and have never had a problem with it, but I also haven't done any hot swapping on that system. Given how I have everything set up, does anyone have any recommendations for a good pci sata card that can handle hot swap? Thanks, Chris Frederick From webmaster at mn-linux.org Tue Sep 9 14:14:50 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 14:14:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809091914.m89JEoT03017@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Dell PowerEdge 1650 I have a Dell PowerEdge 1650, which includes dual on-board gigabit ethernet, 2x9GB SCSI U160 HDDs, a single PIII 1.113GHz processor with 512KB cache (socket for second processor). There is one power supply, but support for a second. Please email me with any questions. I'm asking $150 or best (reasonable) offer. Seller Email address: ecrist at secure-computing dot net http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Wed Sep 10 08:44:23 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:44:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809101344.m8ADiN616625@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: Want to Buy Subject: Postfix setup and teaching I want to set up postfix to relay through several SMTP accounts. Approximately one SMTP account per user. One of the issues I am having is a lack of terminology. I would like to pay an administrator to work with me to: 1- Set up Postfix. 2- Teach me terminology. Contact me via email to let me know your rates and how much time you think this will take. Seller Email address: samir dot nassar at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From me at alanpalazzolo.com Tue Sep 9 11:59:53 2008 From: me at alanpalazzolo.com (Alan Palazzolo) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 11:59:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek Twin Cities Needs You! (Meeting 2008-09-21 @ 3PM) Message-ID: <48C6AB89.5010706@alanpalazzolo.com> Free Geek Needs You! ------------------------------ Next Meeting: ------------------------------ Sunday 21 September 2008 at 3PM at Where are we at? ------------------------------ We are currently applying to get funding for a space so that FGTC can operate. We still need lots of things to be done and time is limited between the people that are currently involved. We need some more volunteers to help get this great project off the ground. What can you do? ------------------------------ The funding is the most important at the moment, but any of the following areas can be worked on before a space is available: * Grant Writing/Reviewing * Define Decision Making Process * Create and Document Test Machines * Find Recycling Partner * Investigate Outreach and Partnerships * Documentation of Processes and From * Inventory System * Analysis and Evaluation Processes * Creating OS Install Profiles * Design/Logo/Branding Work * Overall Organization and Leadership Tell a friend: ------------------------------ Bring some friends or forward this email. Free Geek is fun and not just for geeks. -- Alan Palazzolo Chicago Technology Cooperative http://chicagotech.org/ Drupal Developer alan at chicagotech.org (651) 276-1206 From tpenney at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 10:51:43 2008 From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:51:43 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions Message-ID: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some advice for me. I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard overlays required, etc. We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should be looking into? -- Tom Penney From cwgriesel at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 11:13:28 2008 From: cwgriesel at gmail.com (Curtis Griesel) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:13:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f246bf00809110913v1a7837f1u20b01b72fc15ee01@mail.gmail.com> If you want your application to be - browser-based - standards-compliant -- works on most computer browsers / platforms - easy to configure - secure -- easy to patch and upgrade on an ongoing basis - modular -- start with core features and easily integrate new features in the future I would look at building it in Drupal. True, there is a learning curve involved to actually do the development, but it is PHP so not at all hard for an existing software developer to grasp. Plus, there is a large and active Drupal community so you can easily get free help, or even hire a local Drupal developer to do the work for you if you don't want to be bothered. Curtis On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Tom Penney wrote: > Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some > advice for me. > > I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is > in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote > it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and > write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like > that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of > stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything > unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was > asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features > that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard > overlays required, etc. > > We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from > scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate > people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a > table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or > edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should > be looking into? > > -- > Tom Penney > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/57d9df68/attachment.htm From cwgriesel at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 11:39:43 2008 From: cwgriesel at gmail.com (Curtis Griesel) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:39:43 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <48C947DB.6010404@alanpalazzolo.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809110913v1a7837f1u20b01b72fc15ee01@mail.gmail.com> <48C947DB.6010404@alanpalazzolo.com> Message-ID: <7f246bf00809110939t2ba992eao53885f96d7b90b45@mail.gmail.com> You're right that any web-based application is plagued by various latency problems. But, for whatever reason, Tom did say he wants a browser-based solution. One way to partly resolve this would be to run the app off of a beefed-up local server on your own local subnet. That would address some of the speed and reliability issues that most web apps have -- all traffic would be local rather than through the internet. Google Gears is another attempt to address the inherent problems in web apps, but I don't know if there are any good application development frameworks out for it yet. Maybe Tom could elaborate on why he wants his data-entry to be browser based. On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 11:31 AM, Alan Palazzolo wrote: > Curtis and Tom, > > Curits, you know how I love the Drupal, but I don't think Drupal is a > good solution for this problem. > > One, using a browser-based solution could be an overall problem because > theres always a chance of unreliability, slowness, internet > connectivity. Also, Drupal has a lot of overhead. And Drupal does not > have good, stable support for Google Gears. So, unless you need actual > website with content (besides data entry), Drupal is probably not the > answer. Don't get me wrong, Drupal is great and can accomplish this, > but I don't see it as the best solution. > > But, I'm not entirely sure of the scope of project. Do you need > anything besides data entry? Security issues? Design aspects? LAN or > WAN support (this could remove the browser/internet problems)? Needless > to say, I don't have any real solutions that I can think of. > > > -- > Alan > http://alanpalazzolo.com/ > > > > > On 9/11/08 11:13 AM, Curtis Griesel wrote: > > If you want your application to be > > - browser-based > > - standards-compliant -- works on most computer browsers / platforms > > - easy to configure > > - secure -- easy to patch and upgrade on an ongoing basis > > - modular -- start with core features and easily integrate new features > in > > the future > > > > I would look at building it in Drupal. > > > > True, there is a learning curve involved to actually do the development, > but > > it is PHP so not at all hard for an existing software developer to grasp. > > Plus, there is a large and active Drupal community so you can easily get > > free help, or even hire a local Drupal developer to do the work for you > if > > you don't want to be bothered. > > > > Curtis > > > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Tom Penney wrote: > > > >> Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some > >> advice for me. > >> > >> I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is > >> in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote > >> it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and > >> write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like > >> that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of > >> stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything > >> unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was > >> asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features > >> that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard > >> overlays required, etc. > >> > >> We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from > >> scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate > >> people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a > >> table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or > >> edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should > >> be looking into? > >> > >> -- > >> Tom Penney > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org > >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/f192b296/attachment.htm From stuff at cb1inc.com Thu Sep 11 12:01:43 2008 From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:01:43 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> Why do you *need* Gears? I don't see how it would help in a data entry application. How complicated is the data entry? Is it like a rebate form (couple easy fields) or like an benefit enrollment form (employee info, spouse info, zero or more child info, varying length of items)? Where is the data going? File? Database? Is there any special formatting to the data? As for some of the other responses, I don't think Drupal is the right tool for anything other than eating up CPU cycles and bandwidth. There are lots of things that can be done to speed up a web app and the web app can be made to be as secure as the weakest password. If you needs are relatively simple, take a look at the Forms functionality with Google Docs. Once you define the form, any submitted forms get dumped into spreadsheet that can be exported to .csv, .html, .ods, .pdf, .txt, and .xls. -Chris Tom Penney wrote: > Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some > advice for me. > > I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is > in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote > it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and > write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like > that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of > stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything > unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was > asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features > that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard > overlays required, etc. > > We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from > scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate > people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a > table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or > edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should > be looking into? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/5e082807/attachment.htm From andyzib at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 12:38:05 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:38:05 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> Message-ID: Is there some reason for finding some framework for doing all this? It sounds like something that could be whipped up by a good PHP, .NET, in a few days. Maybe a week or two if you wanted JavaScript data validation before submitting the forms or a more AJAX like interface. Quite possibly over simplified based on limited knowledge... :) -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/1d796319/attachment.htm From tpenney at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 13:28:12 2008 From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:28:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> Message-ID: <5c596d0e0809111128o4007781ate95245f3036008ef@mail.gmail.com> It does not *need* to be a browser based application. If I were to start from scratch that is how I would do it. There lots of advantages and disadvantages to a browser based system. The biggest disadvantage is the latency. To get fast at data entry you get into a mindless machine like rhythm, the variable latency you see in browser apps disrupts that, quite annoying to the point of not being workable. I was really hoping to find some type of existing solution i could use without a lot of development. but the systems I've found are not that great, and pretty expensive. If it were browser based it would have to have ajaxian features for the on the fly lookup of entered items for auto filling addresses, names and other validation. I was looking into google gears because of the built in client side data caching in sqlite. the user could submit and move on without waiting for the post to the server. heres and article about gears and data entry http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2007/07/12/the-power-of-google-gears-part-2.html?page=1 I haven't workd with gears but I'm guessing there would be a nice way to preload the large images that the user enters off of. you don't need gears to do any of this but it certainly looks like it would be helpful for a project like this. The forms themselves are 2 page forms with several addresses which can be looked up in a database of known addresses or entered from scratch. other format validations have to occur, nothing too complex. The images are large (2000pixels wide) and often hard to read so the user has to be able to zoom and move the image quickly if they need to. the images should move to the right position as the user moves from field to field so that they are not spending a lot of time scrolling around the image. I've built similar but simpler systems in the past, this would tame me about 3 weeks I think. currently is stored to a database and exported to csv for import into a different system. - Tom On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > Why do you *need* Gears? I don't see how it would help in a data entry > application. > > How complicated is the data entry? Is it like a rebate form (couple easy > fields) or like an benefit enrollment form (employee info, spouse info, zero > or more child info, varying length of items)? Where is the data going? > File? Database? Is there any special formatting to the data? > > As for some of the other responses, I don't think Drupal is the right tool > for anything other than eating up CPU cycles and bandwidth. There are lots > of things that can be done to speed up a web app and the web app can be made > to be as secure as the weakest password. > > If you needs are relatively simple, take a look at the Forms functionality > with Google Docs. Once you define the form, any submitted forms get dumped > into spreadsheet that can be exported to .csv, .html, .ods, .pdf, .txt, and > .xls. > > -Chris > > > > Tom Penney wrote: > > Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some > advice for me. > > I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is > in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote > it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and > write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like > that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of > stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything > unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was > asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features > that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard > overlays required, etc. > > We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from > scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate > people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a > table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or > edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should > be looking into? > > > -- Tom Penney 612-920-3562 From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 11 13:43:55 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:43:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites Message-ID: A little off topic but you guys seem to know things like this. Also, I would prefer a site that uses FOSS software, just because. There are sites on the web that allow users to enter a petition and to collect "signatures". Have any of you used these petition sites? Are any of them supposed to be better than others? I would be concerned mostly about sites that harvest email addresses or other information from signatories. Otherwise I just want to know that the site works. Thanks in advance. Mike From cwgriesel at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 14:02:13 2008 From: cwgriesel at gmail.com (Curtis Griesel) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:02:13 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0809111128o4007781ate95245f3036008ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> <5c596d0e0809111128o4007781ate95245f3036008ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f246bf00809111202v3c4f0130u112d3839a15561bf@mail.gmail.com> Whether or not to use an application framework depends partly on the scope of the project, and partly on your own software development style. Not to be pedantic, but even .NET, which was suggested, is a framework, not a programming language. What a framework buys you is a richer set of features and more reliable, maintainable code than building a whole app up from code. I do agree that for small scale projects, a framework is overkill. But for larger projects, relational data, user account management, real-time database integration and other complex features, a framework give you reliable, tested, maintainable features much faster than building them all from scratch. Sure, I'm a Drupal fanboy. But Drupal does support rich JavaScript and AJAX through jQuery, and even supports Google Gears ( http://drupal.org/project/gears) so it can help you out on the way to building a nice, responsive web-based application, if that is what you need. Whether you need a framework a just a bunch of code really boils down to the scope of your project and your own development style. Cheers, Curtis On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:28 PM, Tom Penney wrote: > It does not *need* to be a browser based application. If I were to > start from scratch that is how I would do it. There lots of advantages > and disadvantages to a browser based system. The biggest disadvantage > is the latency. To get fast at data entry you get into a mindless > machine like rhythm, the variable latency you see in browser apps > disrupts that, quite annoying to the point of not being workable. > > I was really hoping to find some type of existing solution i could use > without a lot of development. but the systems I've found are not that > great, and pretty expensive. > > If it were browser based it would have to have ajaxian features for > the on the fly lookup of entered items for auto filling addresses, > names and other validation. > I was looking into google gears because of the built in client side > data caching in sqlite. the user could submit and move on without > waiting for the post to the server. heres and article about gears and > data entry > > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2007/07/12/the-power-of-google-gears-part-2.html?page=1 > I haven't workd with gears but I'm guessing there would be a nice way > to preload the large images that the user enters off of. you don't > need gears to do any of this but it certainly looks like it would be > helpful for a project like this. > > The forms themselves are 2 page forms with several addresses which can > be looked up in a database of known addresses or entered from scratch. > other format validations have to occur, nothing too complex. The > images are large (2000pixels wide) and often hard to read so the user > has to be able to zoom and move the image quickly if they need to. the > images should move to the right position as the user moves from field > to field so that they are not spending a lot of time scrolling around > the image. > > I've built similar but simpler systems in the past, this would tame me > about 3 weeks I think. > > currently is stored to a database and exported to csv for import into > a different system. > > - Tom > > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > > Why do you *need* Gears? I don't see how it would help in a data entry > > application. > > > > How complicated is the data entry? Is it like a rebate form (couple easy > > fields) or like an benefit enrollment form (employee info, spouse info, > zero > > or more child info, varying length of items)? Where is the data going? > > File? Database? Is there any special formatting to the data? > > > > As for some of the other responses, I don't think Drupal is the right > tool > > for anything other than eating up CPU cycles and bandwidth. There are > lots > > of things that can be done to speed up a web app and the web app can be > made > > to be as secure as the weakest password. > > > > If you needs are relatively simple, take a look at the Forms > functionality > > with Google Docs. Once you define the form, any submitted forms get > dumped > > into spreadsheet that can be exported to .csv, .html, .ods, .pdf, .txt, > and > > .xls. > > > > -Chris > > > > > > > > Tom Penney wrote: > > > > Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some > > advice for me. > > > > I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is > > in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote > > it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and > > write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like > > that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of > > stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything > > unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was > > asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features > > that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard > > overlays required, etc. > > > > We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from > > scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate > > people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a > > table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or > > edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should > > be looking into? > > > > > > > > > > -- > Tom Penney > 612-920-3562 > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/e3769e47/attachment-0001.htm From stuff at cb1inc.com Thu Sep 11 14:05:15 2008 From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:05:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0809111128o4007781ate95245f3036008ef@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> <5c596d0e0809111128o4007781ate95245f3036008ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C96BEB.6010603@cb1inc.com> Ok, if I had to build this application, I would build this as a single page web application that is built using the Dojo Javascript Toolkit with a single Ajax handler on the server written in PHP. This can be developed relatively quickly, made secure, and perform like a rock star. You don't need Gears. Ajax allows for asynchronous calls and you can cache stuff in the browser using Javascript, so it would slow you down at all. Preloading all of the images is a bad idea. Preloading the next image is a good idea. There isn't a great way to zoom and pan an image, but it can be done with some Javascript magic. What I'm describing is a very elegant solution, however it's not for the faint of heart. Building single page applications is not easy. It takes a good developer with experience to do it right, delivery it in a timely manner, design good usability, and make the app perform well. -Chris Tom Penney wrote: > It does not *need* to be a browser based application. If I were to > start from scratch that is how I would do it. There lots of advantages > and disadvantages to a browser based system. The biggest disadvantage > is the latency. To get fast at data entry you get into a mindless > machine like rhythm, the variable latency you see in browser apps > disrupts that, quite annoying to the point of not being workable. > > I was really hoping to find some type of existing solution i could use > without a lot of development. but the systems I've found are not that > great, and pretty expensive. > > If it were browser based it would have to have ajaxian features for > the on the fly lookup of entered items for auto filling addresses, > names and other validation. > I was looking into google gears because of the built in client side > data caching in sqlite. the user could submit and move on without > waiting for the post to the server. heres and article about gears and > data entry > http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/onlamp/2007/07/12/the-power-of-google-gears-part-2.html?page=1 > I haven't workd with gears but I'm guessing there would be a nice way > to preload the large images that the user enters off of. you don't > need gears to do any of this but it certainly looks like it would be > helpful for a project like this. > > The forms themselves are 2 page forms with several addresses which can > be looked up in a database of known addresses or entered from scratch. > other format validations have to occur, nothing too complex. The > images are large (2000pixels wide) and often hard to read so the user > has to be able to zoom and move the image quickly if they need to. the > images should move to the right position as the user moves from field > to field so that they are not spending a lot of time scrolling around > the image. > > I've built similar but simpler systems in the past, this would tame me > about 3 weeks I think. > > currently is stored to a database and exported to csv for import into > a different system. > > - Tom > > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Chris Barber wrote: > >> Why do you *need* Gears? I don't see how it would help in a data entry >> application. >> >> How complicated is the data entry? Is it like a rebate form (couple easy >> fields) or like an benefit enrollment form (employee info, spouse info, zero >> or more child info, varying length of items)? Where is the data going? >> File? Database? Is there any special formatting to the data? >> >> As for some of the other responses, I don't think Drupal is the right tool >> for anything other than eating up CPU cycles and bandwidth. There are lots >> of things that can be done to speed up a web app and the web app can be made >> to be as secure as the weakest password. >> >> If you needs are relatively simple, take a look at the Forms functionality >> with Google Docs. Once you define the form, any submitted forms get dumped >> into spreadsheet that can be exported to .csv, .html, .ods, .pdf, .txt, and >> .xls. >> >> -Chris >> >> >> >> Tom Penney wrote: >> >> Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some >> advice for me. >> >> I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is >> in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote >> it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and >> write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like >> that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of >> stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything >> unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was >> asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features >> that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard >> overlays required, etc. >> >> We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from >> scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate >> people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a >> table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or >> edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should >> be looking into? >> >> >> >> > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/d2b38a1c/attachment.htm From airchia at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 14:23:25 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:23:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I use them all the time. As for which sites to go to, it depends on the issues you're interested in "voting" on, and what your persuasion is. I also send a fair amount of emails and faxes to my elected officials through their government sites or through other websites (such as Congress.org). I have no idea if these sites use FOSS. As far as if they work, I'm guessing you mean if they get results with politicians. I'm pretty sure they do because a couple years ago Congress tried to say they weren't going to accept comments from such sites. People got upset, and I believe Congress backed off the issue. Hope that helps, Nick On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > A little off topic but you guys seem to know things like this. Also, I > would prefer a site that uses FOSS software, just because. > > There are sites on the web that allow users to enter a petition and to > collect "signatures". Have any of you used these petition sites? Are any > of them supposed to be better than others? I would be concerned mostly > about sites that harvest email addresses or other information from > signatories. Otherwise I just want to know that the site works. > > Thanks in advance. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/476b0d65/attachment.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 11 14:34:33 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:34:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > I use them all the time. As for which sites to go to, it depends on the > issues you're interested in "voting" on, and what your persuasion is. I > also send a fair amount of emails and faxes to my elected officials > through their government sites or through other websites (such as > Congress.org). I have no idea if these sites use FOSS. > > As far as if they work, I'm guessing you mean if they get results with > politicians. I'm pretty sure they do because a couple years ago Congress > tried to say they weren't going to accept comments from such sites. > People got upset, and I believe Congress backed off the issue. My petition wouldn't be a political thing -- nothing involving politicians -- it would be about policy within a scientific/professional organization. So when I said that the site should "work" I just meant that it should correctly collect the data and count signatories. So which site(s) do you recommend? Thanks for getting back to me! Mike > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 1:43 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > >> A little off topic but you guys seem to know things like this. Also, I >> would prefer a site that uses FOSS software, just because. >> >> There are sites on the web that allow users to enter a petition and to >> collect "signatures". Have any of you used these petition sites? Are any >> of them supposed to be better than others? I would be concerned mostly >> about sites that harvest email addresses or other information from >> signatories. Otherwise I just want to know that the site works. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Mike From drue at therub.org Thu Sep 11 14:52:35 2008 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:52:35 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080911195235.GC19721@therub.org> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 02:34:33PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > My petition wouldn't be a political thing -- nothing involving politicians > -- it would be about policy within a scientific/professional organization. > So when I said that the site should "work" I just meant that it should > correctly collect the data and count signatories. > > So which site(s) do you recommend? > I think this is a little different than the original question, and similar to the other thread posted today. I came across a survey on drupal.org last week that uses google docs on the back end. I hadn't seen this before, but it sounds perfect for what you're looking for (not even really a petition - more like a survey). Here's the link to how drupal was using it: http://icanhaz.com/drupalresearch As a poster in the other thread noted, the results get dumped into a google spreadsheet, which you can export however you'd like for analysis. Dan From airchia at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 15:25:26 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:25:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: <20080911195235.GC19721@therub.org> References: <20080911195235.GC19721@therub.org> Message-ID: Ah, yes, I think Dan's right. What I was talking about you can find by just googling "petition hosting" or something. Nick On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 2:52 PM, Dan Rue wrote: > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 02:34:33PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > > My petition wouldn't be a political thing -- nothing involving > politicians > > -- it would be about policy within a scientific/professional > organization. > > So when I said that the site should "work" I just meant that it should > > correctly collect the data and count signatories. > > > > So which site(s) do you recommend? > > > > I think this is a little different than the original question, and > similar to the other thread posted today. > > I came across a survey on drupal.org last week that uses google docs on > the back end. I hadn't seen this before, but it sounds perfect for what > you're looking for (not even really a petition - more like a survey). > > Here's the link to how drupal was using it: > http://icanhaz.com/drupalresearch > > As a poster in the other thread noted, the results get dumped into a > google spreadsheet, which you can export however you'd like for > analysis. > > Dan > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/937b1ed8/attachment-0001.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 11 15:53:06 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:53:06 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: <20080911195235.GC19721@therub.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Ah, yes, I think Dan's right. What I was talking about you can find by > just googling "petition hosting" or something. Of course I can do that and I have done it, and a few options come up. But back to my question: Are any of those sites better than others? Are you saying that they are interchangeable and I could use any one of them with the same result? Mike From airchia at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 18:02:06 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:02:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: <20080911195235.GC19721@therub.org> Message-ID: Honestly, I think we're maybe thinking of two different things. I was thinking about petitions regarding social issues. Do you mean surveys? Something like these: http://www.infopoll.com/live/surveys.dll/web?f=services&p=hosting http://www.go2poll.com/ http://www.thefreecountry.com/scripthosting/polls.shtml Nick On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 3:53 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > > Ah, yes, I think Dan's right. What I was talking about you can find by > > just googling "petition hosting" or something. > > Of course I can do that and I have done it, and a few options come up. > But back to my question: Are any of those sites better than others? Are > you saying that they are interchangeable and I could use any one of them > with the same result? > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom Blog: cognitivealchemy.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080911/308c4c0e/attachment.htm From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 11 19:08:11 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:08:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: <20080911195235.GC19721@therub.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Honestly, I think we're maybe thinking of two different things. I was > thinking about petitions regarding social issues. Do you mean surveys? > Something like these: > > http://www.infopoll.com/live/surveys.dll/web?f=services&p=hosting > > http://www.go2poll.com/ > > http://www.thefreecountry.com/scripthosting/polls.shtml No, this is a petition. Something like "We the undersigned request that the leadership of the organization do the following." We just need to collect some info on who the undersigned are. Mike From max at bernsteinforpresident.com Thu Sep 11 19:38:06 2008 From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:38:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809111938.06964.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> On Thursday 11 September 2008 7:08:11 pm Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > Honestly, I think we're maybe thinking of two different things. I was > > thinking about petitions regarding social issues. Do you mean surveys? > > Something like these: > > > > http://www.infopoll.com/live/surveys.dll/web?f=services&p=hosting > > > > http://www.go2poll.com/ > > > > http://www.thefreecountry.com/scripthosting/polls.shtml > > No, this is a petition. Something like "We the undersigned request that > the leadership of the organization do the following." We just need to > collect some info on who the undersigned are. Have you seen ipetitions.com? I have never used it to create a petition, however I signed a petition there and never got any spam. I'm looking for the same thing as you, and I think I am going to go with www.thepetitionsite.com. It just looks like the most established and most powerful of the available sites. -Max -- Leonard Bernstein for President at www.BernsteinForPresident.com From tclug at lizakowski.com Fri Sep 12 01:15:03 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 01:15:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> Message-ID: <200809120115.03834.tclug@lizakowski.com> > As for some of the other responses, I don't think Drupal is the right > tool for anything other than eating up CPU cycles and bandwidth. There Drupal is awesome, if your site will look and function like a Drupal site. Things like forums, image galleries, etc, are pretty much automatically available with no coding. But, if you stray too far from what they do, and if you want it to look certain ways, then you start to fight the framework. If you know Drupal well, you can make it work, but then you're interfacing with code you didn't write. If you're new, it might hurt. That's true for any framework. I do a lot of Ruby on Rails. It makes custom web development easy, if you do it their way. And their way is slick. But if you decided you didn't want a database-driven MVC webapp, rails might just get in the way. There's a lot of tools that could do the job. What languages or tools do you already know, or if you plan on learning a new one, which direction do you want to go in your coding career? Jeremy > If you needs are relatively simple, take a look at the Forms > functionality with Google Docs. Once you define the form, any submitted > forms get dumped into spreadsheet that can be exported to .csv, .html, > .ods, .pdf, .txt, and .xls. > > -Chris > > Tom Penney wrote: > > Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some > > advice for me. > > > > I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is > > in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote > > it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and > > write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like > > that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of > > stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything > > unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was > > asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features > > that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard > > overlays required, etc. > > > > We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from > > scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate > > people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a > > table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or > > edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should > > be looking into? From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Sep 12 02:08:36 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 02:08:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: <200809111938.06964.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> References: <200809111938.06964.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, Max Shinn wrote: > Have you seen ipetitions.com? > > I have never used it to create a petition, however I signed a petition > there and never got any spam. I saw that one first, I think. It looks very professional. > I'm looking for the same thing as you, and I think I am going to go with > www.thepetitionsite.com. It just looks like the most established and > most powerful of the available sites. Yes, that does look like it has handled a lot of petitions and a lot of signatures. In what sense is it powerful? > Leonard Bernstein for President > at > www.BernsteinForPresident.com I think one of the legal requirements for being President of the United States is that you must be alive. So I will only vote for living people. Sorry. I did like West Side Story though, and I liked his ideas on the origins of music (related to language). Mike From tpenney at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 08:38:15 2008 From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:38:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <200809120115.03834.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <48C94EF7.6060805@cb1inc.com> <200809120115.03834.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <5c596d0e0809120638u4f512035w390c7a785f3c04ef@mail.gmail.com> I have nothing against Drupal but everything we need to do here is going have to be written from scratch anyway. It doesn't need to be pretty or have ay traditional features like galleries, fancy menus, etc. were just drawing a simple page. I guess I don't see the benefit of using druple or something similar in this situation. - Tom On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Jeremy wrote: >> As for some of the other responses, I don't think Drupal is the right >> tool for anything other than eating up CPU cycles and bandwidth. There > > Drupal is awesome, if your site will look and function like a Drupal site. > Things like forums, image galleries, etc, are pretty much automatically > available with no coding. > > But, if you stray too far from what they do, and if you want it to look > certain ways, then you start to fight the framework. If you know Drupal > well, you can make it work, but then you're interfacing with code you didn't > write. If you're new, it might hurt. > > That's true for any framework. I do a lot of Ruby on Rails. It makes custom > web development easy, if you do it their way. And their way is slick. But > if you decided you didn't want a database-driven MVC webapp, rails might just > get in the way. -- Tom Penney From bradyh at bitstream.net Fri Sep 12 09:06:21 2008 From: bradyh at bitstream.net (bradyh at bitstream.net) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:06:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Suse on zLinux anybody? Message-ID: <39441.151.151.21.107.1221228381.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com> I've got a system I'm working on for work and it's a bit different than what I'm used to. Suse on zLinux. I'm trying to install Subversion and I'm hitting brick walls whichever way I go. I tried compiling and I got a cryptic error message. I've been searching Novell's site for RPMs and the only ones I found were pretty ancient. Has anyone here dealt with this stuff? Can I get any pointers? Thanks, Brady From jus at krytosvirus.com Fri Sep 12 09:54:30 2008 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:54:30 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Suse on zLinux anybody? In-Reply-To: <39441.151.151.21.107.1221228381.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com> References: <39441.151.151.21.107.1221228381.squirrel@webmail.iphouse.com> Message-ID: <0fbb01c914e7$76beb3a0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> I have not ever used zLinux before but I have seen strange and frustrating problems in the past with the AppArmor which is similar to SELinux. I was not even able to run default Postfix that came with the SuSE installation with the default AppArmor enabled. Once I shutdown down AppArmor everything just worked. It may be a shot in the dark but it's all I have off the top of my head. Also supplying some error messages on various things that are not working may help a lot. Also check your system logs for any potential clues or more descriptive messages. -----Original Message----- From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of bradyh at bitstream.net Sent: Friday, September 12, 2008 9:06 AM To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: [tclug-list] Suse on zLinux anybody? I've got a system I'm working on for work and it's a bit different than what I'm used to. Suse on zLinux. I'm trying to install Subversion and I'm hitting brick walls whichever way I go. I tried compiling and I got a cryptic error message. I've been searching Novell's site for RPMs and the only ones I found were pretty ancient. Has anyone here dealt with this stuff? Can I get any pointers? Thanks, Brady _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From chris.niesen at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 16:29:19 2008 From: chris.niesen at gmail.com (chris.niesen at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 21:29:19 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Suse on zLinux anybody? Message-ID: <153001580-1221341361-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-559253785-@bxe271.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> What are the errors? I've installed svn on SLES 10, and if you want, I can try and dig up an install howto I wrote up for compiling. ------Original Message------ From: bradyh at bitstream.net Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: [tclug-list] Suse on zLinux anybody? Sent: Sep 12, 2008 9:06 AM I've got a system I'm working on for work and it's a bit different than what I'm used to. Suse on zLinux. I'm trying to install Subversion and I'm hitting brick walls whichever way I go. I tried compiling and I got a cryptic error message. I've been searching Novell's site for RPMs and the only ones I found were pretty ancient. Has anyone here dealt with this stuff? Can I get any pointers? Thanks, Brady _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless device from U.S. Cellular From max at bernsteinforpresident.com Sun Sep 14 08:03:18 2008 From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:03:18 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: <200809111938.06964.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> Message-ID: <200809140803.19443.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> > > I'm looking for the same thing as you, and I think I am going to go with > > www.thepetitionsite.com. It just looks like the most established and > > most powerful of the available sites. > > Yes, that does look like it has handled a lot of petitions and a lot of > signatures. In what sense is it powerful? I did end up going with this, and it (so far) has done everything I need. It has kept all of my info confidential as a signer. By default, it allows people to email you regarding your petition via a link on the petition page. You can turn this off in your preferences. I has fit all of my needs. Are there any features in particular that you are looking for? > > Leonard Bernstein for President > > at > > www.BernsteinForPresident.com > > I think one of the legal requirements for being President of the United > States is that you must be alive. So I will only vote for living people. > Sorry. I did like West Side Story though, and I liked his ideas on the > origins of music (related to language). I'll vote Bernstein in 2012. As of this year, it is more important to me that a certain candidate doesn't get into office. From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Sep 14 13:21:42 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 13:21:42 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809141821.m8EILga27787@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Free Subject: Dell Dimension 4400 and monitor Dell Dimension 4400 Workstation RAM: 1GB Video: Radeon 9600 AGP (VGA, DVI, TV-out) Sound: Creative SoundBlaster Live! 3 USB ports (2 back, 1 front) No floppy drive No hard drive ------------------------- 19" Dell Monitor (CRT) Resolution: 1600x1200 pixles (4:3) Refresh: 85Hz Dell re-badged Sony Trinitron ----------------------- Contact via email please. Seller Email address: samir dot nassar at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Sep 14 13:43:07 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 13:43:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809141843.m8EIh7K00705@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: Dell Inspiron 2650 Dell Inspiron 2650 14.1" LCD Pentium 4-M 1.8GHz 512mb RAM 30gb Drive XP Pro, Office 2003 There is no wireless built-in, but I will include a wireless adapter for it. There is a small crack in the display cover, near the hinge but it does not affect any functionality of the laptop. Battery holds charge well over an hour. Screen looks very nice. $220 or best offer. Seller Email address: kevin dot lombardo at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From iipreca at hotmail.com Sun Sep 14 20:37:36 2008 From: iipreca at hotmail.com (G J) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:37:36 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Hidden network storage Message-ID: I work for a college that has a a few video editing suites which are Macs and PCs, a production studio with a graphics generator and a Leightronix Nexus video server. The vid server has a large disk for storing video clips wich are uploaded either via some client software installed on a networked PC or I belive it has an ftp server as well. The delema we have is since video files are quite large 10-40 gigs a piece it would be nice to move these files to a central file server via the network. I generally wouldent have a prolbem doing this however the IT dept is less than coperative in providing us any solution at all. So I was wondering how I could set up a file server on the network without broadcasting it to the IT folks. I was starting down the path of building a vm on a large usb disk and hanging it off of one of our office pcs but the Macs, PC's and the video server are all on differnt VLANS, and thats where I hit the brick wall. Any suggestions? short of turning it into a sneakernet. Jesse _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080914/1ea6a041/attachment.htm From jus at krytosvirus.com Mon Sep 15 00:24:48 2008 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 00:24:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Hidden network storage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <113f01c916f3$5fb7b9f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> Without knowing the administrative and political boundaries you may be attempting to cross you should carefully consider any advice at technical circumvention of their designs. That being said all you should need to do is turn one of the systems into a router by using additional NICs in on system and have it connected to all of the VLANs. Or if they have/allow/support VLAN tagging you could potentially do it all on the same nic though that may hinder network performance if you're trying to upload and download multiple files across the same NIC at the same time. Either this server could handle the storage itself or you could just use it as a router to bridge the VLANs together and put the storage server on the segment of your choice. You'd likely need to add static routes on each of the PCs that need access to this special storage server. Again, carefully consider what you are doing in a case like this and weigh any potential consequences. _____ From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of G J Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 8:38 PM To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: [tclug-list] Hidden network storage I work for a college that has a a few video editing suites which are Macs and PCs, a production studio with a graphics generator and a Leightronix Nexus video server. The vid server has a large disk for storing video clips wich are uploaded either via some client software installed on a networked PC or I belive it has an ftp server as well. The delema we have is since video files are quite large 10-40 gigs a piece it would be nice to move these files to a central file server via the network. I generally wouldent have a prolbem doing this however the IT dept is less than coperative in providing us any solution at all. So I was wondering how I could set up a file server on the network without broadcasting it to the IT folks. I was starting down the path of building a vm on a large usb disk and hanging it off of one of our office pcs but the Macs, PC's and the video server are all on differnt VLANS, and thats where I hit the brick wall. Any suggestions? short of turning it into a sneakernet. Jesse _____ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. Learn Now -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/3b772035/attachment.htm From itwontdie at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 08:27:11 2008 From: itwontdie at gmail.com (Ryan R) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:27:11 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Geek roomate wanted! Message-ID: <79758ac80809150627v1035a3acg87328df9a661d981@mail.gmail.com> Hey TCLUG, My roomate got an admin job in TX and is moving out. I am looking for another geek roomate. I have 2 a bedroom duplex in Hopkins with a full basement and garage rent is only $775 you would pay half the rent plus half of the electric/gas/interwebs. Currently I have a Comcast 50/5Mbit connection but wont be able to afford it on my own. Windows users need not apply. lulz -- -Ryan Rodriguez From me at alanpalazzolo.com Thu Sep 11 11:31:23 2008 From: me at alanpalazzolo.com (Alan Palazzolo) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:31:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Data entry solutions In-Reply-To: <7f246bf00809110913v1a7837f1u20b01b72fc15ee01@mail.gmail.com> References: <5c596d0e0809110851r253b1237sdcbc74ec4caf34da@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809110913v1a7837f1u20b01b72fc15ee01@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C947DB.6010404@alanpalazzolo.com> Curtis and Tom, Curits, you know how I love the Drupal, but I don't think Drupal is a good solution for this problem. One, using a browser-based solution could be an overall problem because theres always a chance of unreliability, slowness, internet connectivity. Also, Drupal has a lot of overhead. And Drupal does not have good, stable support for Google Gears. So, unless you need actual website with content (besides data entry), Drupal is probably not the answer. Don't get me wrong, Drupal is great and can accomplish this, but I don't see it as the best solution. But, I'm not entirely sure of the scope of project. Do you need anything besides data entry? Security issues? Design aspects? LAN or WAN support (this could remove the browser/internet problems)? Needless to say, I don't have any real solutions that I can think of. -- Alan http://alanpalazzolo.com/ On 9/11/08 11:13 AM, Curtis Griesel wrote: > If you want your application to be > - browser-based > - standards-compliant -- works on most computer browsers / platforms > - easy to configure > - secure -- easy to patch and upgrade on an ongoing basis > - modular -- start with core features and easily integrate new features in > the future > > I would look at building it in Drupal. > > True, there is a learning curve involved to actually do the development, but > it is PHP so not at all hard for an existing software developer to grasp. > Plus, there is a large and active Drupal community so you can easily get > free help, or even hire a local Drupal developer to do the work for you if > you don't want to be bothered. > > Curtis > > On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 10:51 AM, Tom Penney wrote: > >> Forgive the off topic post. I was hoping that someone might have some >> advice for me. >> >> I've been handed a home brew data entry system written in VB6 that is >> in need of replacement. Code is poorly commented and the guy who wrote >> it can't be found. What I would LIKE to do is start from scratch and >> write a nice browser based system using google gears or something like >> that but I don't have time. I would think there would be a ton of >> stuff available, open or otherwise, as we are not doing anything >> unusual. But what I've found seems antiquated and expensive. I was >> asked to evaluate some Viking Software stuff which has the features >> that we need but, man, low tech, 8 character file names, keyboard >> overlays required, etc. >> >> We process about 10,000 hand written forms a month entered from >> scanned images on screen. Each form is entered twice by separate >> people and compared for accuracy. some fields are looked up in a >> table to auto populate other fields which can then be accepted or >> edited. nothing to fancy. Has anyone here run across anything I should >> be looking into? >> >> -- >> Tom Penney >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 12:10:21 2008 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:10:21 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal Message-ID: Any recommendations? It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some of the lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the shared virtual servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this is for a non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as it is. Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it myself, or go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate the server as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on that. ====================== Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/41f7a984/attachment.htm From tclug at cmulcahy.com Mon Sep 15 12:16:24 2008 From: tclug at cmulcahy.com (Chris Mulcahy) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:16:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Another ISP Question Message-ID: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> These come up on occasion but it's always worth discussion... I am currently using Mediacom for cable internet access. Performance is decent, about 7,500 kbps down and 500 kbps up. I run my own mail server using dynamic dns services (no-ip.com). I seem to have about 2-4 hours per month of downtime which is not good, really. The cost is too high. I'm using Mediacom only for internet access and not for TV. I'm looking at Qwest for DSL added onto my phone bill. They say the performance will be better. I have a couple questions for people using Qwest DSL. Any caps on bandwidth? Performance and availability good? Any issues running your own mail server? Any other bits of info I should know before switching? It will be much cheaper but I do not want to jump from a known quantity right into a bad situation which I will regret. Thanks! From andyzib at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 12:33:50 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:33:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Hidden network storage In-Reply-To: <113f01c916f3$5fb7b9f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> References: <113f01c916f3$5fb7b9f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Justin Krejci wrote: > Without knowing the administrative and political boundaries you may be > attempting to cross you should carefully consider any advice at technical > circumvention of their designs > At the same time the IT department should be providing the proper tools needed to get the job done. If they are not there is a failure at some level (perhaps the budget) but a competent IT department should still be informing you why they can't. You can limit what IP address ranges can connect to Samba and NFS shares, or just use IP Tables rules that block access except for the IP addresses allowed to access the box. A better option than hiding would be to come up with your own low cost solutions and run them by IT for approval. For example: A 4TB Drobo + a DroboShare could be had for around $1,500, and you still can put another 4TB Drobo on it. (http://www.drobo.com). A cheap PC running Linux loaded up with disks could probally be had for a similar price point. When asked to thank outside the box, remember that "the box" is inside of a larger box called "the budget." -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/94f3bc6e/attachment.htm From josh at tcbug.org Mon Sep 15 12:38:17 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:38:17 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> On Monday 15 September 2008 12:10:21 pm Jordan Peacock wrote: > Any recommendations? > > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some of the > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the shared virtual > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this is for a > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as it is. > > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it myself, or > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate the server > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on that. > > ====================== > Jordan Peacock > hewhocutsdown at gmail.com > hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com You might take a look at Pajunas Interactive, which is fairly NPO friendly, is run by a drupal dev, is here in the Twin Cities, and hosts everything on FreeBSD, which is just like debian, only better. :) -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 195 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/c87435e5/attachment.pgp From andyzib at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 12:44:22 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:44:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Another ISP Question In-Reply-To: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> References: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> Message-ID: Chris, MediaCom's stability has been a bit questionable lately. If you're in Mediacom territory are you also in Integra (http://www.integratelecom.com) territory (Prior Lake)? If you are, I not sure you could get Qwest DSL.Integra's DSL offering is SDSL (Symmetric), where Quest is ADSL like just about every other DSL provider in the state. If you are in Prior Lake or otherwise get phone service from Integra it would be worth checking out. The Symetric part means you get the same upstream bandwidth as downstream bandwith. Integra provides the DSL modem with service as their DSLAMS and the DSL modems are propritary to the vendory they purchased the systems from. I had good experience with Integra when I was using them, and if I recall correctly the IP address was static not dynamic, something that would be helpful for hosting your servers. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/bcd0981c/attachment.htm From tclug at cmulcahy.com Mon Sep 15 12:47:04 2008 From: tclug at cmulcahy.com (Chris Mulcahy) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:47:04 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Another ISP Question In-Reply-To: References: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> Message-ID: <48CE9F98.3040702@cmulcahy.com> Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > > Chris, > > MediaCom's stability has been a bit questionable lately. If you're in > Mediacom territory are you also in Integra > (http://www.integratelecom.com) territory (Prior Lake)? If you are, I > not sure you could get Qwest DSL.Integra's DSL offering is SDSL > (Symmetric), where Quest is ADSL like just about every other DSL > provider in the state. If you are in Prior Lake or otherwise get phone > service from Integra it would be worth checking out. The Symetric part > means you get the same upstream bandwidth as downstream bandwith. > Integra provides the DSL modem with service as their DSLAMS and the > DSL modems are propritary to the vendory they purchased the systems from. > > I had good experience with Integra when I was using them, and if I > recall correctly the IP address was static not dynamic, something that > would be helpful for hosting your servers. > > -- > Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us > IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com Yep, Prior Lake. I went with Mediacom cable was the only option when I built my home in 2001. Were you able to run your own mail server? That's typically frowned upon by ISPs, and rightfully so, but anyone on this list is much more qualified to run a mail server than their typical customer. I'll check out the Integra site. I do seem to remember seeing the Integra trucks around. They're the ones right in the middle of town, right? Thanks for the info. From hpenner at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 12:59:14 2008 From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:59:14 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Hidden network storage In-Reply-To: References: <113f01c916f3$5fb7b9f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> Message-ID: <48CEA272.9010405@gmail.com> Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:24 AM, Justin Krejci > wrote: > > Without knowing the administrative and political boundaries you may > be attempting to cross you should carefully consider any advice at > technical circumvention of their designs > > A better option than hiding would be to come up with your own low cost > solutions and run them by IT for approval. For example: A 4TB Drobo + a > DroboShare could be had for around $1,500, and you still can put another > 4TB Drobo on it. (http://www.drobo.com). A cheap PC running Linux loaded > up with disks could probally be had for a similar price point. > > When asked to thank outside the box, remember that "the box" is inside > of a larger box called "the budget." > True -- and unless you need to share the video files in real time, your cheapest option (and probably most permissible to IT) is probably to get a couple of plain old firewire or USB disks, one for each of you. With 500GB externals to be had for under $100, is the more elegant shared solution worth the extra money and the likelihood of getting into an adversarial relationship with the IT folks? -Harry From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 13:13:26 2008 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:13:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> References: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: To answer Richard There are about 7 unique sites that, ideally, I would put on the same host. But if push comes to shove, there is only 1 of them that is really the resource hog. It isn't too bad with bandwidth (25 GB/month was the heaviest) but on a shared virtual server at the existing hosting company it was eating up more than 10% of the CPU/RAM so it got moved to it's own VPS. Unfortunately, I've been trying to get specific numbers on the CPU and RAM usage but have not found anything concrete as yet. Thanks to everyone for suggestions thus far; they've been a great help. I'm going over them one at a time now... ====================== Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Josh Paetzel wrote: > On Monday 15 September 2008 12:10:21 pm Jordan Peacock wrote: > > Any recommendations? > > > > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some of the > > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the shared > virtual > > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying > > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this is for a > > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as it is. > > > > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it myself, > or > > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate the > server > > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on that. > > > > ====================== > > Jordan Peacock > > hewhocutsdown at gmail.com > > hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com > > You might take a look at Pajunas Interactive, which is fairly NPO friendly, > is > run by a drupal dev, is here in the Twin Cities, and hosts everything on > FreeBSD, which is just like debian, only better. :) > > > -- > Thanks, > > Josh Paetzel > > PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/85ad318e/attachment-0001.htm From tclug at jfoo.org Mon Sep 15 13:32:02 2008 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:32:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Another ISP Question In-Reply-To: <48CE9F98.3040702@cmulcahy.com> References: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> <48CE9F98.3040702@cmulcahy.com> Message-ID: <20080915133202.29c593e4.tclug@jfoo.org> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:47:04 -0500 Chris Mulcahy wrote: > Were you able to run your own mail server? That's typically frowned > upon by ISPs, and rightfully so, but anyone on this list is much more > qualified to run a mail server than their typical customer. With Qwest (I don't know about Integra), you are able to choose your ISP. This will cost a little more (I think), because you pay Qwest for the line, and then the ISP for the IP address/routing. IPHouse is a friendly ISP who has been kind to me about running my own server. j -- John Gateley From tonyyarusso at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 14:29:20 2008 From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:29:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: <4b0998280809151023h603c0160gbff44f912b6ba1cf@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b0998280809151023h603c0160gbff44f912b6ba1cf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <254fef0f0809151229jf280e37k7d41d0f648bf8f19@mail.gmail.com> I've heard good things about both Linode (http://www.linode.com/) and Slicehost (http://www.slicehost.com/), and briefly used a friend's Linode account for some Supybot instances without issues. -- Tony Yarusso http://tonyyarusso.com/ From tonyyarusso at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 14:32:27 2008 From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:32:27 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Another ISP Question In-Reply-To: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> References: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> Message-ID: <254fef0f0809151232l37d8b3ey8711483a1d7a3dfb@mail.gmail.com> Reports are that Qwest has a similar arrangement to what Comcast had until recently - a secret 250GB/mo bandwidth cap. Caps are icky, but it's fairly big, so chances are you'll be okay. Qwest's TOS specifically allow you to run servers, surprisingly enough. -- Tony Yarusso http://tonyyarusso.com/ From adam at askewview.net Mon Sep 15 15:09:41 2008 From: adam at askewview.net (Adam) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:09:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Another ISP Question Message-ID: <46893.70.58.151.162.1221509381.squirrel@mail.askewview.net> Chris, At a location in St. Cloud I'm running a Qwest DSL connection at 1.5Mbit down and 896Kbit upstream using the Qwest.net internet services. The line is $36, internet connectivity is $10 and a /29 was $4.95 all monthly. I also am able to control the reverse DNS entries for the IPs in my /29 netblock. I've been pretty darn happy and its been rock solid. -Adam > These come up on occasion but it's always worth discussion... > > I am currently using Mediacom for cable internet access. Performance is > decent, about 7,500 kbps down and 500 kbps up. I run my own mail server > using dynamic dns services (no-ip.com). I seem to have about 2-4 hours > per month of downtime which is not good, really. The cost is too high. > I'm using Mediacom only for internet access and not for TV. > > I'm looking at Qwest for DSL added onto my phone bill. They say the > performance will be better. > > I have a couple questions for people using Qwest DSL. Any caps on > bandwidth? Performance and availability good? Any issues running your > own mail server? Any other bits of info I should know before > switching? It will be much cheaper but I do not want to jump from a > known quantity right into a bad situation which I will regret. > > Thanks! > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From stuff at cb1inc.com Mon Sep 15 15:54:00 2008 From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:54:00 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: <254fef0f0809151229jf280e37k7d41d0f648bf8f19@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b0998280809151023h603c0160gbff44f912b6ba1cf@mail.gmail.com> <254fef0f0809151229jf280e37k7d41d0f648bf8f19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48CECB68.4090608@cb1inc.com> Slicehosts rocks. Tony Yarusso wrote: > I've heard good things about both Linode (http://www.linode.com/) and > Slicehost (http://www.slicehost.com/), and briefly used a friend's > Linode account for some Supybot instances without issues. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/b7148599/attachment.htm From tclug at lizakowski.com Tue Sep 16 00:11:20 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:11:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: <254fef0f0809151229jf280e37k7d41d0f648bf8f19@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b0998280809151023h603c0160gbff44f912b6ba1cf@mail.gmail.com> <254fef0f0809151229jf280e37k7d41d0f648bf8f19@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809160011.20065.tclug@lizakowski.com> Slicehost is good. They have awesome tutorials that show you how to set up a web server step-by-step, including iptables, etc. Jeremy On Monday 15 September 2008 2:29:20 pm Tony Yarusso wrote: > I've heard good things about both Linode (http://www.linode.com/) and > Slicehost (http://www.slicehost.com/), and briefly used a friend's > Linode account for some Supybot instances without issues. From admin at lctn.org Tue Sep 16 08:00:34 2008 From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:00:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 8.4 reconfigure xserver not working Message-ID: <48CFADF2.1090607@lctn.org> Maybe this is by design, but when I run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg. I do not get an opportunity to change video settings. Is there another method now to do this, or a way to get the video options when running dpkg-reconfigure? Raymond From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 09:06:46 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 09:06:46 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Another ISP Question In-Reply-To: <48CE9F98.3040702@cmulcahy.com> References: <48CE9868.1050401@cmulcahy.com> <48CE9F98.3040702@cmulcahy.com> Message-ID: > > I'll check out the Integra site. I do seem to remember seeing the > Integra trucks around. They're the ones right in the middle of town, > right? > Yup, hard to miss if you're driving through Prior Lake. I don't see anything in Integra's AUP that says you can't run your own server: http://www.integratelecom.com/about/policies/acceptable_use_policy.asp I'm currently on MediaCom, so my experience with Integra is from a couple years ago when I first moved into the area. Thinking of switching back. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080916/cdc9e87e/attachment.htm From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Sep 16 13:04:16 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:04:16 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 8.4 reconfigure xserver not working In-Reply-To: <48CFADF2.1090607@lctn.org> References: <48CFADF2.1090607@lctn.org> Message-ID: I did a quick search of the ubuntu-users mailing list and it looks like the latest versions of the nvidia drivers have issues with monitor auto detection. Are you running on nVidia display adapter? This seems to cover the resolutions to various nVidia problems: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080916/fe00437d/attachment.htm From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com Wed Sep 17 02:36:07 2008 From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 02:36:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Vim, Advanced Usage and Useful Plugins - Topic @PenguinsUnbound Linux Meeting Sept. 27th Message-ID: <48D0B367.2090406@Goecke-Dolan.com> This months PenguinsUnbound.net meeting will be Saturday September 27th at TIES, 1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108 from 10:00 to 12:00. (See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more info.) Vim, Love it! Hate it! Either way it is always useful to know more about it! Adam Monsen has volunteered to come and talk about "Vim, advanced usage, and useful plugins" Thank, hope to see you there. ==>brian. From admin at lctn.org Wed Sep 17 06:47:03 2008 From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 06:47:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 8.4 reconfigure xserver not working In-Reply-To: References: <48CFADF2.1090607@lctn.org> Message-ID: <48D0EE37.2060809@lctn.org> Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > I did a quick search of the ubuntu-users mailing list and it looks like > the latest versions of the nvidia drivers have issues with monitor auto > detection. Are you running on nVidia display adapter? > > This seems to cover the resolutions to various nVidia problems: > https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/Nvidia It is an intel 82815. I will see what I can find out. From haircut at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 10:07:01 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:07:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Vim, Advanced Usage and Useful Plugins - Topic @PenguinsUnbound Linux Meeting Sept. 27th In-Reply-To: <48D0B367.2090406@Goecke-Dolan.com> References: <48D0B367.2090406@Goecke-Dolan.com> Message-ID: <9ebd65110809170807v27be251al463560001fb3b940@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 2:36 AM, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote: > Adam Monsen has volunteered to come and talk about > "Vim, advanced usage, and useful plugins" I look forward to presenting! While the talk does focus on Vim, another title might be: "Refining Your Plain-Text Toolkit". The concepts I'll cover can easily apply to other customizable editors. -- Adam Monsen From tclug at jfoo.org Wed Sep 17 10:27:47 2008 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:27:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance Message-ID: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> This is somewhat off topic, though I'm sure there's a few consultants on this list that have already faced this issue. What's a good way to get health insurance as an individual consultant? I've seen ehealthinsurance.com and talked directly to a couple of companies. I'm looking for a way to join a group and so get lower rates... j -- John Gateley From dniesen at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 10:41:28 2008 From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:41:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> Message-ID: <47f4d5e70809170841v3556d3fes1f69a1e3f32c5549@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:27 AM, John Gateley wrote: > This is somewhat off topic, though I'm sure there's a few > consultants on this list that have already faced this issue. > > What's a good way to get health insurance as an individual > consultant? I've seen ehealthinsurance.com and talked directly > to a couple of companies. I'm looking for a way to join a > group and so get lower rates... > > j > > -- > John Gateley > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > Ahhh, the holy grail of insurance... being on a group plan without working for a company. I myself have been searching for this since I've been self-employed. Here are the two options that I came down to: * Marry someone with great insurance benefits * Or run with a high-deductible HSA plan that covers 100% after the deductible My wife had some great benefits but is now only working part time so we are now with the second option. I've found that the maximum I'll pay out in a year is less than the monthly premium of her group plan. The sticky part about these plans is you need to make sure you have money in your HSA although the flip side is that you can contribute to this HSA before your income is taxed. The way I look at it is I would like to pay the insurance company as little as possible so I opt for the higher deductible with the lower premium. My family is fairly healthy and on no prescriptions so we don't expect to even use up our deductible so in the end we have money in a savings account (tax-free) and pay less for our insurance. I put together a spreadsheet comparing the plans that Medica offered against the same group plans we would need to pay with my wife working part time. Let me know if you're interested in how I crunched my numbers. One other thing I came across while searching for insurance was NASE that sold MEGA life insurance. The premiums were really cheap, they had all these add-on bells and whistles (similar to AAA) but what I found is that they didn't have a maximum payout. If something major happened you would be paying a percentage of the bill anyway. What I learned from that research is the big important number is the maximum you will pay in a year with your policy. -- Donovan Niesen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080917/a4006536/attachment.htm From sfertch at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 11:16:19 2008 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:16:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> Message-ID: <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:27 AM, John Gateley wrote: > This is somewhat off topic, though I'm sure there's a few > consultants on this list that have already faced this issue. > > What's a good way to get health insurance as an individual > consultant? I've seen ehealthinsurance.com and talked directly > to a couple of companies. I'm looking for a way to join a > group and so get lower rates... > Look into some of the small business organizations as they may have something. I don't have any specifics to give you at the moment. But, there are a lot of websites out there on this. Word of caution: Be EXTREMELY cautious on the health insurance companies you decide to deal with and how you apply. Many companies will take your money with your application without even looking it over. Then, as soon as you make one claim such as a routine Dr's visit (check-up or physical), they're all over you because you're costing them money. Do some further research before applying for any health insurance plans. Pay particular attention to their policies, customer complaints, and if they are under investigation by the state. Finally, don't be surprised to see that many insurance companies are reported and under investigation for rescinding policies (which happened to me). -- -Shawn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080917/cc77717e/attachment.htm From songwindapogee at dragonseptarts.com Mon Sep 15 12:23:53 2008 From: songwindapogee at dragonseptarts.com (Eric Honaker) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:23:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] [ubuntu-us-mn] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b0998280809151023h603c0160gbff44f912b6ba1cf@mail.gmail.com> Most ISPs will make you have a business connection if they find you are running a company website, so that would probably add more that $150/year to your expenses alone. Eric Honaker Dragonsept Arts and Publishing "Words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind." - Rudyard Kipling On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:10 PM, Jordan Peacock wrote: > Any recommendations? > > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some of the > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the shared virtual > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this is for a > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as it is. > > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it myself, or > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate the server > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on that. > > ====================== > Jordan Peacock > hewhocutsdown at gmail.com > hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com > > -- > ubuntu-us-mn mailing list > ubuntu-us-mn at lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-us-mn > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080915/3081e116/attachment-0001.htm From jpschewe at mtu.net Wed Sep 17 13:55:28 2008 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:55:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question Message-ID: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> I've got a number of servers that have similar configs. The configs that I make manually I'm keeping in subversion so that we can track changes. Right now I'm pushing them out to the servers using rsync. The problem that I've run into is that if someone is debugging a problem on the server they make changes to the server and if they forget to push the changes back into subversion the next time the sync script pushes the files out the changes get overwritten. I would rather be notified on the next sync that something on the server has been changed since the last sync. Has anyone done something like this and have a good solution? I've thought about unison, and that would probably work, the downside is that it always needs to be run from the same machine otherwise it doesn't know the state of the last sync and there are two admins that both may sync from their workstations. Thanks. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From sloncho at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 14:26:57 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:26:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Jon Schewe wrote: > I've got a number of servers that have similar configs. The configs that > I make manually I'm keeping in subversion so that we can track changes. > Right now I'm pushing them out to the servers using rsync. The problem > that I've run into is that if someone is debugging a problem on the > server they make changes to the server and if they forget to push the > changes back into subversion the next time the sync script pushes the > files out the changes get overwritten. I would rather be notified on the > next sync that something on the server has been changed since the last sync. > > Has anyone done something like this and have a good solution? I've > thought about unison, and that would probably work, the downside is that > it always needs to be run from the same machine otherwise it doesn't > know the state of the last sync and there are two admins that both may > sync from their workstations. > > Thanks. > Use post-commit hooks in your svn repository to push the changes to the servers. That way, changes will propagate only if they are committed in the repo. Cheers Sunny -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From tclug at lizakowski.com Wed Sep 17 14:42:24 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:42:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> Rescinding a policy? Just because they feel like it? On Wednesday 17 September 2008 11:16:19 am Shawn Fertch wrote: > On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:27 AM, John Gateley wrote: > > This is somewhat off topic, though I'm sure there's a few > > consultants on this list that have already faced this issue. > > > > What's a good way to get health insurance as an individual > > consultant? I've seen ehealthinsurance.com and talked directly > > to a couple of companies. I'm looking for a way to join a > > group and so get lower rates... > > Look into some of the small business organizations as they may have > something. I don't have any specifics to give you at the moment. But, > there are a lot of websites out there on this. > > Word of caution: Be EXTREMELY cautious on the health insurance companies > you decide to deal with and how you apply. Many companies will take your > money with your application without even looking it over. Then, as soon as > you make one claim such as a routine Dr's visit (check-up or physical), > they're all over you because you're costing them money. > > Do some further research before applying for any health insurance plans. > Pay particular attention to their policies, customer complaints, and if > they are under investigation by the state. Finally, don't be surprised to > see that many insurance companies are reported and under investigation for > rescinding policies (which happened to me). From sfertch at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 15:46:34 2008 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:46:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 2:42 PM, Jeremy wrote: > > Rescinding a policy? Just because they feel like it? > > Yes and no to they can do it whenever they feel like it. Here's some quick hits to read on what's been going on over the years. http://attorneypages.com/hot/trigger-health-insurance-rescission.htm http://attorneypages.com/hot/health-insurance-rescission-spells-trouble.htm http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20186938/ http://sacramento.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2008/07/21/story13.html http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/12/magazines/moneymag/insurance_rescission.moneymag/index.htm http://law.freeadvice.com/insurance_law/insurers_bad_faith/blue-cross-rescission.htm In short, they can come up with whatever reason they want to for rescinding your policy so long as they make it look good. They can claim that you falsified information, willfully withheld information, had forgotten about a visit to the ER for a broken toe, forgot to dot your "i" or, cross a "t", etc. In my own case, I called and complained to the state. When I gave the reasons stated for the canceling of my policy, the people I talked to said the insurance company did nothing wrong. There's no legal recourse I can take because they claimed it wasn't "illegal" but certain wasn't "ethical" for them cancel as they did. I can file a complaint. But, that's all I can do (besides paying off my medical bills). So, I got screwed by the insurance company. They refunded my premiums (about $1,100) and stuck me with many times that in medical bills related to health problems that came up while I was covered under their policy. As someone mentioned, it's best if you have a spouse who works full time that can get employer sponsored health insurance if you're going the route of self employment. If not, you have two chioces: 1) Apply to the various health insurance companies. Once you're accepted, hope you don't get rescinded should you have to go to the Dr's office. 2) Take the money that you would pay to health insurance and bank it for health only should you need it. Downside to this is that as far as I know, you cannot claim this like an HSA account. In order to have an HSA, you must have a qualifying health insurance plan. Either way, you're most likely going to have to foot the bills. When I had my health insurance coverage for a family of three, my annual deductible was $5250. Meaning, I had to pay out of pocket up to the deductible before it was covered. Sure, I could use the money I put into the HSA, but that also defeated the purpose of having it IMO. Because the money you deposited into the HSA was deductible as was the money you spent on medical expenses (so long as they met IRS requirements). -- -Shawn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080917/e2b6d1c3/attachment.htm From jpschewe at mtu.net Wed Sep 17 21:26:10 2008 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:26:10 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> Message-ID: <48D1BC42.7040608@mtu.net> Sunny wrote: > On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Jon Schewe wrote: > >> I've got a number of servers that have similar configs. The configs that >> I make manually I'm keeping in subversion so that we can track changes. >> Right now I'm pushing them out to the servers using rsync. The problem >> that I've run into is that if someone is debugging a problem on the >> server they make changes to the server and if they forget to push the >> changes back into subversion the next time the sync script pushes the >> files out the changes get overwritten. I would rather be notified on the >> next sync that something on the server has been changed since the last sync. >> >> Has anyone done something like this and have a good solution? I've >> thought about unison, and that would probably work, the downside is that >> it always needs to be run from the same machine otherwise it doesn't >> know the state of the last sync and there are two admins that both may >> sync from their workstations. >> >> Thanks. >> >> > > Use post-commit hooks in your svn repository to push the changes to > the servers. That way, changes will propagate only if they are > committed in the repo. > > > That's a good way to kick the script off, but doesn't handle the case where someone modifies the server and not the repository, which is where the problem is right now. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From sloncho at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 21:54:24 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:54:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <48D1AA97.7040904@mtu.net> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1AA97.7040904@mtu.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 8:10 PM, Jon Schewe wrote: >> >> Use post-commit hooks in your svn repository to push the changes to >> the servers. That way, changes will propagate only if they are >> committed in the repo. >> >> >> > That's a good way to kick the script off, but doesn't handle the case > where someone modifies the server and not the repository, which is where > the problem is right now. > I would consider this a bad practice, if someone is doing changes on the server directly, without testing it first somewhere else. And if the changes are made on a test server, it should not be one of the servers to which the post-commit writes. I.e. if you have tested changes, and they are uploaded - the changes propagate. If nothing is uploaded, nothing is written to the servers. So, there is no chance to overwrite the changes, if they are not committed. -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From wilson at visi.com Wed Sep 17 22:53:12 2008 From: wilson at visi.com (Tim Wilson) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:53:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] When to use the sticky bit Message-ID: Hey everyone, Quick question here: I have a user on an Ubuntu server who needs ftp access to a certain subdirectory of the web site. She's using Dreamweaver to modify some CSS and other html files there. I created a group with the appropriate write permission to the directory and made her a member of the group. Now she can see the directory, but any files that she puts there don't have the correct permissions. Is this a situation where the sticky bit needs to be set on the directory where I'm granting her access? I've never been able to wrap my head around umask either. Is that related in some way? -Tim -- Tim Wilson, The Savvy Technologist Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA Educational technology guy, Linux and OS X fan, Grad. student, Daddy mailto: wilson at visi.com aim: tis270 blog and podcast: http://technosavvy.org From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Sep 18 06:19:10 2008 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:19:10 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] When to use the sticky bit In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D2392E.7070302@mtu.net> Tim Wilson wrote: > Hey everyone, > > Quick question here: > > I have a user on an Ubuntu server who needs ftp access to a certain > subdirectory of the web site. She's using Dreamweaver to modify some > CSS and other html files there. I created a group with the appropriate > write permission to the directory and made her a member of the group. > Now she can see the directory, but any files that she puts there don't > have the correct permissions. > > Is this a situation where the sticky bit needs to be set on the > directory where I'm granting her access? > > I've never been able to wrap my head around umask either. Is that > related in some way? > > It depends on what you're getting. The umask isn't too hard, but I've found that it's far to unreliable as different people set it different ways. You can keep going down this path and what you probably want is this: Set the umask with "umask 002" this makes newly created files rw by user, rw by group and r by other. Then if you set the sticky bit on a directory all newly created files in that directory will have the same group as the directory. Now what I usually do now is to use ACLs. If the filesystem has ACL support, then I use setfacl and set the default permissions there and I can guarantee what permissions I'm going to get. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Sep 18 06:22:02 2008 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 06:22:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1AA97.7040904@mtu.net> Message-ID: <48D239DA.1050604@mtu.net> Sunny wrote: > On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 8:10 PM, Jon Schewe wrote: > >>> Use post-commit hooks in your svn repository to push the changes to >>> the servers. That way, changes will propagate only if they are >>> committed in the repo. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> That's a good way to kick the script off, but doesn't handle the case >> where someone modifies the server and not the repository, which is where >> the problem is right now. >> >> > > I would consider this a bad practice, if someone is doing changes on > the server directly, without testing it first somewhere else. And if > the changes are made on a test server, it should not be one of the > servers to which the post-commit writes. I.e. if you have tested > changes, and they are uploaded - the changes propagate. If nothing is > uploaded, nothing is written to the servers. So, there is no chance to > overwrite the changes, if they are not committed. > > Yes, that would be great, but we don't have test servers. We're an R&D shop so we can handle some mistakes and save money on servers. Best practice would be to have a separate set of servers for testing and production, but we've decided we can handle the risk. So when we're testing admin scripts and configurations we do it on the real server to make sure it works right and then commit it to the repository. We do much of the testing on our workstations, but at some point it needs to be tested on the real server. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From jucziz6 at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 09:33:30 2008 From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:33:30 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Move CentOS to new hard drive Message-ID: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> Howdy, Currently I am running CentOS 5 on a Dell Poweredge 2400 with 4 18gig drives in a raid 5 configuration and 2 9gig drives setup as a mirror. I just purchases 4 36gig drives so my question is if there's a way to move the operating system with a tape backup. Some sort of live recovery process? Thanks -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080918/5af9232b/attachment.htm From ecrist at secure-computing.net Thu Sep 18 10:05:01 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (ecrist at secure-computing.net) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:05:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Move CentOS to new hard drive In-Reply-To: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> References: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f7f6466731b406b26d0fa46fb7b6160@localhost> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:33:30 -0500, James wrote: > Howdy, > Currently I am running CentOS 5 on a Dell Poweredge 2400 with 4 18gig > drives > in a raid 5 configuration and 2 9gig drives setup as a mirror. I just > purchases 4 36gig drives so my question is if there's a way to move the > operating system with a tape backup. Some sort of live recovery process? James, My recommendation would be to go through install as far as building the partitions and giving yourself a boot loader. After that, the following procedure has worked for me: https://www.secure-computing.net/wiki/index.php/Dump_Over_SSH I don't know how specific it is to FreeBSD, but it may work for you. Or, it could be a good opportunity to switch to a superior OS. :P HTH Eric Crist From tpenney at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 10:14:57 2008 From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:14:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <48D1BC42.7040608@mtu.net> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1BC42.7040608@mtu.net> Message-ID: <5c596d0e0809180814uc8f793eg840e8a782ae26bc0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 9:26 PM, Jon Schewe wrote: > Sunny wrote: >> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Jon Schewe wrote: >> >>> I've got a number of servers that have similar configs. The configs that >>> I make manually I'm keeping in subversion so that we can track changes. >>> Right now I'm pushing them out to the servers using rsync. The problem >>> that I've run into is that if someone is debugging a problem on the >>> server they make changes to the server and if they forget to push the >>> changes back into subversion the next time the sync script pushes the >>> files out the changes get overwritten. I would rather be notified on the >>> next sync that something on the server has been changed since the last sync. >>> >>> Has anyone done something like this and have a good solution? I've >>> thought about unison, and that would probably work, the downside is that >>> it always needs to be run from the same machine otherwise it doesn't >>> know the state of the last sync and there are two admins that both may >>> sync from their workstations. >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> >> >> Use post-commit hooks in your svn repository to push the changes to >> the servers. That way, changes will propagate only if they are >> committed in the repo. >> >> >> > That's a good way to kick the script off, but doesn't handle the case > where someone modifies the server and not the repository, which is where > the problem is right now. > I'm not sure I have the details right but you have a checkout of the svn repository someplace, then using rsync to push appropriate files from the master checkout into place on each server. Before you start the the process you have a checkout someplace which contains the last files you pushed to the servers. The files in svn may or may not but different from these. So run a diff between the files in your master checkout and the files on the servers. If different, then the file could be current with what is in svn, or it could have been modified without commit. keep those different files in a list someplace. Now update your master checkout so it is current files you want to push and run the diff again for the files in your list. If still different than its probably a modified without commit file - send your notice. there's a chance this could not work if the file was updated several times since the last push and a the server contains version that was committed sometime between the last push and the current version. - or - you could pull the files directly from svn to the servers and skip rsync. -- Tom Penney 612-920-3562 From jpschewe at mtu.net Thu Sep 18 10:18:31 2008 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:18:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <5c596d0e0809180814uc8f793eg840e8a782ae26bc0@mail.gmail.com> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1BC42.7040608@mtu.net> <5c596d0e0809180814uc8f793eg840e8a782ae26bc0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48D27147.6010609@mtu.net> Tom Penney wrote: > > I'm not sure I have the details right but you have a checkout of the > svn repository someplace, then using rsync to push appropriate files > from the master checkout into place on each server. > > Close. I have a script that does an svn export to a temp directory, then builds the appropriate server trees, then rsyncs the files out to the servers. > Before you start the the process you have a checkout someplace which > contains the last files you pushed to the servers. The files in svn > may or may not but different from these. So run a diff between the > files in your master checkout and the files on the servers. If > different, then the file could be current with what is in svn, or it > could have been modified without commit. keep those different files in > a list someplace. Now update your master checkout so it is current > files you want to push and run the diff again for the files in your > list. If still different than its probably a modified without commit > file - send your notice. > Yes, if I always do the checkout from the same machine then this will work. At this point using unison will solve the problem. I'm trying to come up with a solution where you won't necessarily always push from the same system, although it's sounding like that's what I'll need to do. > there's a chance this could not work if the file was updated several > times since the last push and a the server contains version that was > committed sometime between the last push and the current version. > > - or - > you could pull the files directly from svn to the servers and skip rsync. > > Yeah, but then I'd have .svn directories all over my filesystem and need to have a lot of svn:ignores properties. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From tpenney at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 10:27:31 2008 From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:27:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <48D27147.6010609@mtu.net> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1BC42.7040608@mtu.net> <5c596d0e0809180814uc8f793eg840e8a782ae26bc0@mail.gmail.com> <48D27147.6010609@mtu.net> Message-ID: <5c596d0e0809180827h87548a2q58615ae500ecde16@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 10:18 AM, Jon Schewe wrote: > Tom Penney wrote: >> >> I'm not sure I have the details right but you have a checkout of the >> svn repository someplace, then using rsync to push appropriate files >> from the master checkout into place on each server. >> >> > Close. I have a script that does an svn export to a temp directory, then > builds the appropriate server trees, then rsyncs the files out to the > servers. > >> Before you start the the process you have a checkout someplace which >> contains the last files you pushed to the servers. The files in svn >> may or may not but different from these. So run a diff between the >> files in your master checkout and the files on the servers. If >> different, then the file could be current with what is in svn, or it >> could have been modified without commit. keep those different files in >> a list someplace. Now update your master checkout so it is current >> files you want to push and run the diff again for the files in your >> list. If still different than its probably a modified without commit >> file - send your notice. >> > Yes, if I always do the checkout from the same machine then this will > work. At this point using unison will solve the problem. I'm trying to > come up with a solution where you won't necessarily always push from the > same system, although it's sounding like that's what I'll need to do. you could keep a file in svn containing the last pushed version number. your script could checkout both the last pushed and current versions. but it all sounds a little messy. -- Tom Penney 612-920-3562 From florin at iucha.net Thu Sep 18 10:45:01 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:45:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Move CentOS to new hard drive In-Reply-To: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> References: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080918154501.GH3263@iris.iucha.org> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 09:33:30AM -0500, James wrote: > Currently I am running CentOS 5 on a Dell Poweredge 2400 with 4 18gig drives > in a raid 5 configuration and 2 9gig drives setup as a mirror. I just > purchases 4 36gig drives so my question is if there's a way to move the > operating system with a tape backup. Some sort of live recovery process? If you can add the new drives to your system (maybe you need an additional SCSI/SAS card) you could boot the old system in single user mode, then manually create the partitions and copy everything over using "cp -ax". I did that many times. Tapes are really small and slow, or really expensive. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080918/be337070/attachment.pgp From dave at sherohman.org Thu Sep 18 11:01:27 2008 From: dave at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:01:27 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] When to use the sticky bit In-Reply-To: <48D2392E.7070302@mtu.net> References: <48D2392E.7070302@mtu.net> Message-ID: <20080918160127.GB14160@sherohman.org> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 06:19:10AM -0500, Jon Schewe wrote: > It depends on what you're getting. The umask isn't too hard, but I've > found that it's far to unreliable as different people set it different > ways. You can keep going down this path and what you probably want is this: > Set the umask with "umask 002" this makes newly created files rw by > user, rw by group and r by other. Then if you set the sticky bit on a > directory all newly created files in that directory will have the same > group as the directory. You have misremembered. To have all new files in a directory owned by the same group as the directory itself, you set the sgid bit on the directory. Note, however, that some applications ignore[1] this (many of this set also ignore umask) and will create files with their own idea of the "correct" ownership, often without providing a way to override this (mis)behaviour. Given that the OP's issue is in respect to an ftp arrangement, I suspect that the issue here is likely to be caused by such an application.[2] The sticky bit, when set on a directory, makes the files in the directory renamable/deletable only by each file's owner or the directory's owner (and root, of course) rather than by any user who can write to the directory. [1] Or override, perhaps. I've never bothered to dig in and see whether the file is initially created as user.wronggroup or created as user.rightgroup, then immediately changed to user.wronggroup. [2] I also work with a Dreamweaver guy and have to constantly use su, chgrp, and chmod to fix the ownership and permissions of files he uploads because they end up being owned by him.him despite directory permissions being set such that a shared group should own anything created there and 0755 (rw-r--r--) despite his 002 umask. -- News aggregation meets world domination. Can you see the fnews? http://seethefnews.com/ From marc at e-skinner.net Thu Sep 18 11:27:17 2008 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:27:17 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] When to use the sticky bit In-Reply-To: <20080918160127.GB14160@sherohman.org> References: <48D2392E.7070302@mtu.net> <20080918160127.GB14160@sherohman.org> Message-ID: <48D28165.8050409@e-skinner.net> it would also help to know what FTP daemon your running? i'm thinking that some of them like proftp and vsftp have umask etc config options in them as well. might want to look at that as well, within the ftp server. Dave Sherohman wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 06:19:10AM -0500, Jon Schewe wrote: > >> It depends on what you're getting. The umask isn't too hard, but I've >> found that it's far to unreliable as different people set it different >> ways. You can keep going down this path and what you probably want is this: >> Set the umask with "umask 002" this makes newly created files rw by >> user, rw by group and r by other. Then if you set the sticky bit on a >> directory all newly created files in that directory will have the same >> group as the directory. >> > > You have misremembered. To have all new files in a directory owned by > the same group as the directory itself, you set the sgid bit on the > directory. Note, however, that some applications ignore[1] this (many > of this set also ignore umask) and will create files with their own idea > of the "correct" ownership, often without providing a way to override > this (mis)behaviour. Given that the OP's issue is in respect to an ftp > arrangement, I suspect that the issue here is likely to be caused by > such an application.[2] > > The sticky bit, when set on a directory, makes the files in the > directory renamable/deletable only by each file's owner or the > directory's owner (and root, of course) rather than by any user who can > write to the directory. > > > [1] Or override, perhaps. I've never bothered to dig in and see whether > the file is initially created as user.wronggroup or created as > user.rightgroup, then immediately changed to user.wronggroup. > > [2] I also work with a Dreamweaver guy and have to constantly use su, > chgrp, and chmod to fix the ownership and permissions of files he > uploads because they end up being owned by him.him despite directory > permissions being set such that a shared group should own anything > created there and 0755 (rw-r--r--) despite his 002 umask. > > From sloncho at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 11:34:42 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:34:42 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <48D239DA.1050604@mtu.net> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1AA97.7040904@mtu.net> <48D239DA.1050604@mtu.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:22 AM, Jon Schewe wrote: > Yes, that would be great, but we don't have test servers. We're an R&D > shop so we can handle some mistakes and save money on servers. Best > practice would be to have a separate set of servers for testing and > production, but we've decided we can handle the risk. So when we're > testing admin scripts and configurations we do it on the real server to > make sure it works right and then commit it to the repository. We do > much of the testing on our workstations, but at some point it needs to > be tested on the real server. > This does not invalidate my idea. On the svn server, you have temp checkout. post-commit will checkout in this temp folder, and then run rsync from it to other servers. No rsync is done w/o commit. That way, the only problem you might have is if 2 people make changes on 2 different servers, and one of them commit and the other one not. That way the work of the second guy will be lost. But still, if you change a "common" files, ask everybody to make the changes only on one server, and exclude this server from the rsync post-commit process. -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From tclug at jfoo.org Thu Sep 18 13:44:46 2008 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:44:46 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> Message-ID: <20080918134446.949221c2.tclug@jfoo.org> Thanks to everyone for their input... -- j On Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:27:47 -0500 John Gateley wrote: > This is somewhat off topic, though I'm sure there's a few > consultants on this list that have already faced this issue. > > What's a good way to get health insurance as an individual > consultant? I've seen ehealthinsurance.com and talked directly > to a couple of companies. I'm looking for a way to join a > group and so get lower rates... > > j > > -- > John Gateley > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- John Gateley From cwgriesel at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 14:05:13 2008 From: cwgriesel at gmail.com (Curtis Griesel) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:05:13 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> > Sure, I could use the money I put into the HSA, but that also defeated the > purpose of having it IMO. Because the money you deposited into the HSA was > deductible as was the money you spent on medical expenses (so long as they > met IRS requirements). > I'm not an accountant, but a little clarification might be useful. Money put into an HSA is not deductible from your taxes, it is completely tax free. It is not counted as earned income for tax purposes. Money spent on healthcare after it has been taxed as income is deductible, but only on a percentage bases. So even if you spend your entire HSA on your deductible, you still end up ahead tax-wise because you paid no income tax on the money in your HSA. If you used non-HSA taxed income to pay your medical bills, you can deduct that expense from your taxes, but only as an itemized deduction which reduces, but does not eliminate the tax on that income. That being said, I still hate HSA's because they are a pain to administer. You know, if we cut out all the administrative costs of this spaghetti system we call healthcare in the U.S., we could easily provide health insurance for every living, breathing body in the U.S. for the same price we currently spend to cover a fraction of our population. Something to think about with the election season upon us. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080918/330e20ba/attachment.htm From sfertch at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 15:33:40 2008 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:33:40 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <67f3084a0809181333x11255a7eyb6e5cba751d29a92@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 2:05 PM, Curtis Griesel wrote: > > Sure, I could use the money I put into the HSA, but that also defeated the >> purpose of having it IMO. Because the money you deposited into the HSA was >> deductible as was the money you spent on medical expenses (so long as they >> met IRS requirements). >> > > I'm not an accountant, but a little clarification might be useful. Money > put into an HSA is not deductible from your taxes, it is completely tax > free. It is not counted as earned income for tax purposes. Money spent on > healthcare after it has been taxed as income is deductible, but only on a > percentage bases. > > So even if you spend your entire HSA on your deductible, you still end up > ahead tax-wise because you paid no income tax on the money in your HSA. If > you used non-HSA taxed income to pay your medical bills, you can deduct that > expense from your taxes, but only as an itemized deduction which reduces, > but does not eliminate the tax on that income. > Yes, there's a difference between pre-tax income and deductions. However, in the simple scheme of things, they're roughly the same when it comes to paying less taxes. I was attemtping to simply it, and not over analyze the mess. Here's the point I was attempting to make: Let's say I have a $5,000 deductible on my HSA plan. This means that I have a $5K HSA deposit limit. You can either deposit the money and use it to pay for medical expenses. Or, you can deposit it and pay for your medical expenses out of pocket to take advantage of the HSA deposit as well as the medical deductions. Which of those two options gives you the best tax write off? Personally, I wish they'd just get rid of the whole overly complex tax laws/code BS and go with a straight flat percentage of your annual income. But, that's another rant... One other important factor about having HSA's: The money you deposit into it carries over year after year. It does not disappear if unused like an FSA. Once you reach a certain age, you can no longer deposit into the HSA and the money reverts to being an account you can use for long term care if need be. As to your comment regarding getting rid of the administrative overhead... To a point I will agree. However, the problems like so much deeper than just administrative BS and the shenanigans the insurance and medical industries play on all of us. There's far too deep of a problem with the health industry as a whole. -- -Shawn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080918/95b30ead/attachment.htm From drue at therub.org Thu Sep 18 15:55:24 2008 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:55:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <67f3084a0809181333x11255a7eyb6e5cba751d29a92@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> <67f3084a0809181333x11255a7eyb6e5cba751d29a92@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080918205524.GA89472@therub.org> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 03:33:40PM -0500, Shawn Fertch wrote: > Let's say I have a $5,000 deductible on my HSA plan. This means that I > have a $5K HSA deposit limit. You can either deposit the money and use it > to pay for medical expenses. Or, you can deposit it and pay for your > medical expenses out of pocket to take advantage of the HSA deposit as > well as the medical deductions. Which of those two options gives you the > best tax write off? As of 2007 the rule was changed and your deductible no longer has anything to do with your HSA contribution limits [1]. Also, I don't believe medical expenses are deductible for most people. I know they have never been for me, because they have to be greater than 7.5% of your AGI, or some similar formula, before any of it is deductible [2]. (perhaps exceptions exist, but I have never been able to take advantage) Dan [1] http://www.ustreas.gov/offices/public-affairs/hsa/pdf/n-08-52.pdf [2] http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc502.html From tclug at lizakowski.com Thu Sep 18 16:07:45 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:07:45 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Announcement: Wed, Sept 24, 6:30 - 8:00pm In-Reply-To: <200711051205.21920.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <200711051205.21920.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <200809181607.45420.tclug@lizakowski.com> The next TCLUG meeting is coming soon! Adam Monsen will present: Selenium: Elegant Automated Web Testing For Anyone! Date: Wed, Sept 24th Time: 6:30 - 8:00 pm University of Minnesota Minneapolis campus, EE/CSci Building , Room: 3-115 200 Union St SE, Minneapolis 55455 http://www.tclug.org "If you've used a Web browser, you've encountered broken Web sites. But this scourge can and must end! Enter Selenium. This tool will make sure your Web site works the way it should, always. Watch your Web browser jump through hoops, doing your work for you,faster and more accurately than a human could." Come watch live demos of on-the-fly Web development and automated testing. ------------------- About the Speaker: Adam Monsen is a software engineer with an intense desire to help lift people out of poverty by engineering robust and efficient Free and Open Source Software. He is a GNU/Linux enthusiast, a horrible poker player, and enjoys cheesy classic Sci-Fi movies. Adam works at the Grameen Foundation and computer science graduate student at the University of Minnesota. Adam has experience in Web development, eCommerce, and avionics systems programming. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 18 16:08:12 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:08:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Curtis Griesel wrote: > I'm not an accountant, but a little clarification might be useful. > Money put into an HSA is not deductible from your taxes, it is > completely tax free. It is not counted as earned income for tax > purposes. Money spent on healthcare after it has been taxed as income > is deductible, but only on a percentage bases. That could change if McCain becomes President: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the impression that most people don't want to pay tax on their health benefit. Mike From drue at therub.org Thu Sep 18 16:28:46 2008 From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:28:46 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080918212846.GB89472@therub.org> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > That could change if McCain becomes President: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html > > I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the impression > that most people don't want to pay tax on their health benefit. Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just to clarify, from the link: While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's because the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable tax credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to be used "to help pay for your health care." So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance from an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. The theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move around since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a lot of employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for small business). Consider how auto insurance works. Individuals can shop around and the policy that best fits their needs and budget, and they're not limited to what their employer offers. More from the article: Yet another radical element of McCain's plan is his proposal to undermine state health insurance regulations by allowing consumers to buy insurance from sellers anywhere in the country. So a requirement in one state that insurers cover, for example, vaccinations, or annual physicals, or breast examinations, would essentially be meaningless. So the author is showing his bias here. Currently, each state has its own set of rules for who can sell insurance and what it has to provide. Insurance companies have to invest considerable resources for each state their in in order to meet all of the individual rules and regulations. Again, like car insurance, the idea is to make health insurance more simple by removing the individual state regulations and allowing individual families to comparison shop for insurance nationally. Agree or disagree, it's thought provoking and worth debate (something lacking in the current political scene). Dan (I won't be following up, as we've veered way off topic) From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 18 16:49:45 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:49:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] umask In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Tim Wilson wrote: > I've never been able to wrap my head around umask either. My understanding (which seems to be working for me)... umask is used to determine default file permissions. File permissions can be written in terms of letters r, w, x (for permission to read, write or execute the file, respectively), but the numbers 4, 2, 1 can be used instead of r, w, x, respectively and those numbers can be summed. So the number 6 means read and write, 5 means read and execute, etc. The other aspect of permissions is *who* has them. We use order to designate this: first is owner, second is group and third is "other" (which means everyone, really). So the permissions 750 means that owner can read, write or execute, group members can read and execute, but others can not do anything. The most common permissions seem to be 755 (for directories or executable files) and 644 for non executable files. Now to umask. The umask is a string of three digits that are subtracted away from 777 (directories and executables) or 666 (other files) to give the default permissions for a newly created file. So the permissions for a new directory or file could be written like so: 777-umask 666-umask If the umask is 022, and it often is, this would yield the usual 755 and 644 permissions. I think a negative number is treated as zero so that a umask of 027 yields 640 for new regular files. I'm sure there is a lot more to know, but that is my simple-minded approach that works most of the time. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 18 16:57:18 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 16:57:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] When to use the sticky bit In-Reply-To: <20080918160127.GB14160@sherohman.org> References: <48D2392E.7070302@mtu.net> <20080918160127.GB14160@sherohman.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Dave Sherohman wrote: > Note, however, that some applications ignore[1] this (many of this set > also ignore umask) and will create files with their own idea of the > "correct" ownership, often without providing a way to override this > (mis)behaviour. Given that the OP's issue is in respect to an ftp > arrangement, I suspect that the issue here is likely to be caused by > such an application.[2] Sometimes that kind of problem can be fixed by writing a script to launch the program. The script might do something like record the time at execution as a variable, launch the program, then when the program terminates, the script continues by changing the permissions on all files with a certain extension modified or created since the script launched (e.g., using "find"). Mike From thoth.serath at gmail.com Thu Sep 18 17:27:18 2008 From: thoth.serath at gmail.com (Chris G.) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:27:18 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Move CentOS to new hard drive In-Reply-To: <20080918154501.GH3263@iris.iucha.org> References: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> <20080918154501.GH3263@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: <7c055dc50809181527n7b76f20brb6f4ace24ff2a7d8@mail.gmail.com> isn't there a way to build and ISO image of the current OS using 'cat' and filename.iso? i heard that that works though i have never tried it... yet On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 09:33:30AM -0500, James wrote: > > Currently I am running CentOS 5 on a Dell Poweredge 2400 with 4 18gig > drives > > in a raid 5 configuration and 2 9gig drives setup as a mirror. I just > > purchases 4 36gig drives so my question is if there's a way to move the > > operating system with a tape backup. Some sort of live recovery process? > > If you can add the new drives to your system (maybe you need an > additional SCSI/SAS card) you could boot the old system in single user > mode, then manually create the partitions and copy everything over > using "cp -ax". I did that many times. Tapes are really small and > slow, or really expensive. > > Cheers, > florin > > -- > Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. > http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080918/278c88ea/attachment.htm From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Thu Sep 18 20:01:03 2008 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 20:01:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Move CentOS to new hard drive In-Reply-To: <7c055dc50809181527n7b76f20brb6f4ace24ff2a7d8@mail.gmail.com> References: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> <20080918154501.GH3263@iris.iucha.org> <7c055dc50809181527n7b76f20brb6f4ace24ff2a7d8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1221786063.7165.1274785673@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 17:27:18 -0500, "Chris G." said: > isn't there a way to build and ISO image of the current OS using 'cat' > and > filename.iso? i heard that that works though i have never tried it... > yet > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 09:33:30AM -0500, James wrote: > > > Currently I am running CentOS 5 on a Dell Poweredge 2400 with 4 18gig > > drives > > > in a raid 5 configuration and 2 9gig drives setup as a mirror. I just > > > purchases 4 36gig drives so my question is if there's a way to move the > > > operating system with a tape backup. Some sort of live recovery process? That is technically possible but the solution is dependent on the type of backup that's needed. The cat > file.iso method makes the backup at the device level since you're basically creating a dump of the device. Assuming that you'll be dumping back to identical hardware on the restore, this method should work. You'll need to create an image of each device that contains data. I haven't tried this with RAID but I don't know why it wouldn't work. Utilities such as tar work at the file system level and are best for backing up specific file systems or directories. The difference is that you'll need to set up the devices and create the file systems prior to restore. From stutterstutt at comcast.net Thu Sep 18 22:11:34 2008 From: stutterstutt at comcast.net (Jeff Nelson) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 22:11:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 8.4 reconfigure xserver not working In-Reply-To: <48CFADF2.1090607@lctn.org> References: <48CFADF2.1090607@lctn.org> Message-ID: <48D31866.9020500@comcast.net> Raymond Norton wrote: > Maybe this is by design, but when I run dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg. I > do not get an opportunity to change video settings. Is there another > method now to do this, or a way to get the video options when running > dpkg-reconfigure? Yes, X configuration drastically changed in Hardy. There's been a lot of discussion about it in ubuntuforums.org. Also see if this helps: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config -Jeff From andyzib at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 00:04:06 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 00:04:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Move CentOS to new hard drive In-Reply-To: <1221786063.7165.1274785673@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> <20080918154501.GH3263@iris.iucha.org> <7c055dc50809181527n7b76f20brb6f4ace24ff2a7d8@mail.gmail.com> <1221786063.7165.1274785673@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: For moving a system, I always use a Live CD to copy the data from the old to new drive. I get the new drive partitioned and formatted as needed, then copy the files from the old drive to the new. Or archive to tar to an external HD. Something like tar -cvfp file.tar / /usr /home /etc Then extract tar -xvfp file.tar You can restore grub from the live CD. If your live CD is the same as the installed OS you could at this point chroot to the mounted drive and use grub from the system... chroot /mnt/new-disk grub-install Reading up on tar and grub and making sure you have a good reliable backup highly recommended. It's out of date, but http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Hard-Disk-Upgrade/ still has some helpful info. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/5e63ac2f/attachment.htm From jpschewe at mtu.net Fri Sep 19 05:33:32 2008 From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 05:33:32 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1AA97.7040904@mtu.net> <48D239DA.1050604@mtu.net> Message-ID: <48D37FFC.6040200@mtu.net> Sunny wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 6:22 AM, Jon Schewe wrote: > >> Yes, that would be great, but we don't have test servers. We're an R&D >> shop so we can handle some mistakes and save money on servers. Best >> practice would be to have a separate set of servers for testing and >> production, but we've decided we can handle the risk. So when we're >> testing admin scripts and configurations we do it on the real server to >> make sure it works right and then commit it to the repository. We do >> much of the testing on our workstations, but at some point it needs to >> be tested on the real server. >> >> > > This does not invalidate my idea. On the svn server, you have temp > checkout. post-commit will checkout in this temp folder, and then run > rsync from it to other servers. No rsync is done w/o commit. > You've still missed the problem. The problem is if someone changes the server without putting the files in subversion. -- Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 8:38-39 From stutterstutt at comcast.net Fri Sep 19 10:12:56 2008 From: stutterstutt at comcast.net (Jeff Nelson) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:12:56 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <48D37FFC.6040200@mtu.net> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1AA97.7040904@mtu.net> <48D239DA.1050604@mtu.net> <48D37FFC.6040200@mtu.net> Message-ID: <48D3C178.9040005@comcast.net> Jon Schewe wrote: > You've still missed the problem. The problem is if someone changes the > server without putting the files in subversion. Not all problems can be solved with technology. I'll bet if someone forgets to put the changes in subversion and loses them, he will have a painful reminder not to do that again. He will either learn or he won't. If he doesn't you have choices. However, that being said, there is a way to do what you want. On each server, run a script to compare the files on the server with the files in subversion. If there is a difference, yell, scream, whatever. Email the entire group with the notice that someone goofed, complete with full details. (Peer pressure can be useful.) You can schedule this script to run whenever you want, depending on how long you are willing to risk non-detection. An optimization comes to mind: find only those server files that have been changed since the last script run and just compare those. I'll bet you could even figure out how to kick off this script as a pre-commit action so each time someone tries to commit a change, your script automatically runs. The commit is aborted if *any* file on *any* server is different. Now the person who wants to commit will have to stop and figure out what happened and why. (More peer pressure can be brought to bear.) -Jeff From jucziz6 at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 10:21:19 2008 From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 10:21:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Move CentOS to new hard drive In-Reply-To: References: <81675d140809180733r7a78d13fq9327fde43cf670df@mail.gmail.com> <20080918154501.GH3263@iris.iucha.org> <7c055dc50809181527n7b76f20brb6f4ace24ff2a7d8@mail.gmail.com> <1221786063.7165.1274785673@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <81675d140809190821g4cb1f0fj60942bd858f5366@mail.gmail.com> Thanks everyone for all of your suggestions. All of them were of value. James On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 12:04 AM, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > For moving a system, I always use a Live CD to copy the data from the old > to new drive. > > I get the new drive partitioned and formatted as needed, then copy the > files from the old drive to the new. Or archive to tar to an external HD. > > Something like > > tar -cvfp file.tar / /usr /home /etc > > Then extract > tar -xvfp file.tar > > You can restore grub from the live CD. If your live CD is the same as the > installed OS you could at this point chroot to the mounted drive and use > grub from the system... > > chroot /mnt/new-disk > grub-install > > Reading up on tar and grub and making sure you have a good reliable backup > highly recommended. > > It's out of date, but http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Hard-Disk-Upgrade/ still > has some helpful info. > > -- > Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us > IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/9384fed0/attachment-0001.htm From cwgriesel at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 14:01:03 2008 From: cwgriesel at gmail.com (Curtis Griesel) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:01:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <20080918212846.GB89472@therub.org> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> <20080918212846.GB89472@therub.org> Message-ID: <7f246bf00809191201u69cb36d3g2497727d8e2eb3a4@mail.gmail.com> But auto insurance is heavily regulated by individual states, yet it is very easy to shop around and buy auto insurance from companies nationwide on the internet. There may be many reasons to end state regulation of health insurance, but making it easy to shop for health insurance is not one of the reasons. On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Dan Rue wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > > That could change if McCain becomes President: > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html > > > > I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the impression > > that most people don't want to pay tax on their health benefit. > > Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just to > clarify, from the link: > > While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be > anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's > because the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable tax > credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to > be used "to help pay for your health care." > > So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I > understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance from > an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. The > theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move around > since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a lot of > employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for small > business). > > Consider how auto insurance works. Individuals can shop around and the > policy that best fits their needs and budget, and they're not limited to > what their employer offers. > > More from the article: > > Yet another radical element of McCain's plan is his proposal to > undermine state health insurance regulations by allowing consumers to > buy insurance from sellers anywhere in the country. So a requirement in > one state that insurers cover, for example, vaccinations, or annual > physicals, or breast examinations, would essentially be meaningless. > > So the author is showing his bias here. Currently, each state has its > own set of rules for who can sell insurance and what it has to provide. > Insurance companies have to invest considerable resources for each state > their in in order to meet all of the individual rules and regulations. > > Again, like car insurance, the idea is to make health insurance more > simple by removing the individual state regulations and allowing > individual families to comparison shop for insurance nationally. > > Agree or disagree, it's thought provoking and worth debate (something > lacking in the current political scene). > > Dan (I won't be following up, as we've veered way off topic) > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/a99d3291/attachment.htm From sloncho at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 15:57:22 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:57:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Server config management question In-Reply-To: <48D3C178.9040005@comcast.net> References: <48D152A0.1030306@mtu.net> <48D1AA97.7040904@mtu.net> <48D239DA.1050604@mtu.net> <48D37FFC.6040200@mtu.net> <48D3C178.9040005@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Nelson wrote: > Jon Schewe wrote: >> You've still missed the problem. The problem is if someone changes the >> server without putting the files in subversion. > > Not all problems can be solved with technology. I'll bet if someone > forgets to put the changes in subversion and loses them, he will have a > painful reminder not to do that again. He will either learn or he won't. > If he doesn't you have choices. > > However, that being said, there is a way to do what you want. > > On each server, run a script to compare the files on the server with the > files in subversion. If there is a difference, yell, scream, whatever. > Email the entire group with the notice that someone goofed, complete > with full details. (Peer pressure can be useful.) > > You can schedule this script to run whenever you want, depending on how > long you are willing to risk non-detection. > > An optimization comes to mind: find only those server files that have > been changed since the last script run and just compare those. > > I'll bet you could even figure out how to kick off this script as a > pre-commit action so each time someone tries to commit a change, your > script automatically runs. The commit is aborted if *any* file on *any* > server is different. Now the person who wants to commit will have to > stop and figure out what happened and why. (More peer pressure can be > brought to bear.) > Or, skip the post-commit step, and instead of running rsync, run scheduled jobs on each server to check the svn log, see the latest update, compare with the current date/time of the file on the server, and if the server's version of the file is newer than the svn version, do not update, but ring a bell. Cheers -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Sep 19 16:22:52 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:22:52 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: <20080918212846.GB89472@therub.org> References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> <20080918212846.GB89472@therub.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Dan Rue wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: >> That could change if McCain becomes President: >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html >> >> I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the impression >> that most people don't want to pay tax on their health benefit. > > Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just to > clarify, from the link: > > While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be > anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's > because the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable > tax credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to > be used "to help pay for your health care." > > So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I > understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance from > an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. The > theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move around > since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a lot of > employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for small > business). Yes, you quoted the article accurately. The topic on this thread was how to get health insurance at a group rate without being a member of a group. It sounds like the McCain plan would make it easier for people to choose to disaffiliate from the group, but how would the system deal with all these free agents? If unaffiliated people pay more for insurance, why would people want to disaffiliate from their group? Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every employee will be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group insurance? That's one thing I don't understand about the proposed plan -- how individuals can negotiate good rates when successful negotiation has historically required a group (e.g., of employees) working together. By the way, I only care about the facts and will not stoop to advocating for one candidate or another on this list. If the McCain plan is great for most people, fine, if it sucks for most people, fine. I'm only on this topic because it sounds like the plan will have a major effect on individuals seeking health insurance. Mike From sfertch at gmail.com Fri Sep 19 19:32:02 2008 From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:32:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance In-Reply-To: References: <20080917102747.bdd1beac.tclug@jfoo.org> <67f3084a0809170916r3984ac46t2c6a1b809f429408@mail.gmail.com> <200809171442.24097.tclug@lizakowski.com> <67f3084a0809171346qe571913x7f7418dfa6a3259d@mail.gmail.com> <7f246bf00809181205o146670e6g46dc92488ba5f412@mail.gmail.com> <20080918212846.GB89472@therub.org> Message-ID: <67f3084a0809191732r3e796582j709ee7996e92c078@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > > Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every employee > will be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group insurance? > Yes it will. But, by the same token, companies are starting to change their insurance policies from traditional group plans to HSA plans. This removes a high overhead on their part. I know of at least one major company here in the Twin Cities to have done it. Others are proposing it now and implementing it in the next year. While it gives freedom to the people on what company they can wish to go with, it has a much deeper impact than just lower rates. Many people are ineligible for individual insurance through private carriers due to pre-existing conditions. Their options are to either go through a group plan such as through a large company (themselves, or their spouse). Or, sign up with a state sanctioned health plan such as MCHA (Minnesota Comprehensive Health Association http://www.mchamn.com ) which offers lesser insurance at a greater price. The benefit is that you can not, or at least aren't supposed to be, denied coverage when all other options are exhausted with private companies. -- -Shawn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/ee700481/attachment.htm From bunjee at charter.net Sat Sep 20 14:39:20 2008 From: bunjee at charter.net (Danny) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:39:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Sabayon Linux 3.5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601c91b58$93dac5b0$bb905110$@net> If anyone out there can tell me how to install this new OS I would appreciate it. I put it in my drive and it did a bunch of scrolling in the verbose mode I guess and Came to a "root" command.....uh, then what? I wish Linux was easier to install and use - it's really frustrating when a regular guy can't figure something out and then ya have to send a bunch of emails & hope someone will help you out. Anyone? DJ -----Original Message----- From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 12:00 PM To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 25 Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to tclug-list at mn-linux.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org You can reach the person managing the list at tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: OT: Health insurance (Curtis Griesel) 2. Re: Server config management question (Sunny) 3. Re: OT: Health insurance (Mike Miller) 4. Re: OT: Health insurance (Shawn Fertch) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:01:03 -0500 From: "Curtis Griesel" Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance To: "TCLUG Mailing List" Message-ID: <7f246bf00809191201u69cb36d3g2497727d8e2eb3a4 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" But auto insurance is heavily regulated by individual states, yet it is very easy to shop around and buy auto insurance from companies nationwide on the internet. There may be many reasons to end state regulation of health insurance, but making it easy to shop for health insurance is not one of the reasons. On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Dan Rue wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > > That could change if McCain becomes President: > > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html > > > > I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the > > impression that most people don't want to pay tax on their health benefit. > > Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just > to clarify, from the link: > > While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be > anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's because > the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable tax > credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to be > used "to help pay for your health care." > > So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I > understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance > from an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. > The theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move > around since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a > lot of employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for > small business). > > Consider how auto insurance works. Individuals can shop around and > the policy that best fits their needs and budget, and they're not > limited to what their employer offers. > > More from the article: > > Yet another radical element of McCain's plan is his proposal to > undermine state health insurance regulations by allowing consumers to > buy insurance from sellers anywhere in the country. So a requirement > in one state that insurers cover, for example, vaccinations, or > annual physicals, or breast examinations, would essentially be meaningless. > > So the author is showing his bias here. Currently, each state has its > own set of rules for who can sell insurance and what it has to provide. > Insurance companies have to invest considerable resources for each > state their in in order to meet all of the individual rules and regulations. > > Again, like car insurance, the idea is to make health insurance more > simple by removing the individual state regulations and allowing > individual families to comparison shop for insurance nationally. > > Agree or disagree, it's thought provoking and worth debate (something > lacking in the current political scene). > > Dan (I won't be following up, as we've veered way off topic) > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/a99d32 91/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:57:22 -0500 From: Sunny Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Server config management question To: "TCLUG List" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Nelson wrote: > Jon Schewe wrote: >> You've still missed the problem. The problem is if someone changes >> the server without putting the files in subversion. > > Not all problems can be solved with technology. I'll bet if someone > forgets to put the changes in subversion and loses them, he will have > a painful reminder not to do that again. He will either learn or he won't. > If he doesn't you have choices. > > However, that being said, there is a way to do what you want. > > On each server, run a script to compare the files on the server with > the files in subversion. If there is a difference, yell, scream, whatever. > Email the entire group with the notice that someone goofed, complete > with full details. (Peer pressure can be useful.) > > You can schedule this script to run whenever you want, depending on > how long you are willing to risk non-detection. > > An optimization comes to mind: find only those server files that have > been changed since the last script run and just compare those. > > I'll bet you could even figure out how to kick off this script as a > pre-commit action so each time someone tries to commit a change, your > script automatically runs. The commit is aborted if *any* file on > *any* server is different. Now the person who wants to commit will > have to stop and figure out what happened and why. (More peer pressure > can be brought to bear.) > Or, skip the post-commit step, and instead of running rsync, run scheduled jobs on each server to check the svn log, see the latest update, compare with the current date/time of the file on the server, and if the server's version of the file is newer than the svn version, do not update, but ring a bell. Cheers -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:22:52 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Miller Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance To: Dan Rue Cc: TCLUG Mailing List Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Dan Rue wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: >> That could change if McCain becomes President: >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html >> >> I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the >> impression that most people don't want to pay tax on their health benefit. > > Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just > to clarify, from the link: > > While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be > anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's > because the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable > tax credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to > be used "to help pay for your health care." > > So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I > understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance > from an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. > The theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move > around since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a > lot of employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for > small business). Yes, you quoted the article accurately. The topic on this thread was how to get health insurance at a group rate without being a member of a group. It sounds like the McCain plan would make it easier for people to choose to disaffiliate from the group, but how would the system deal with all these free agents? If unaffiliated people pay more for insurance, why would people want to disaffiliate from their group? Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every employee will be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group insurance? That's one thing I don't understand about the proposed plan -- how individuals can negotiate good rates when successful negotiation has historically required a group (e.g., of employees) working together. By the way, I only care about the facts and will not stoop to advocating for one candidate or another on this list. If the McCain plan is great for most people, fine, if it sucks for most people, fine. I'm only on this topic because it sounds like the plan will have a major effect on individuals seeking health insurance. Mike ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:32:02 -0500 From: "Shawn Fertch" Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance To: "TCLUG Mailing List" Message-ID: <67f3084a0809191732r3e796582j709ee7996e92c078 at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > > Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every > employee will be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group insurance? > Yes it will. But, by the same token, companies are starting to change their insurance policies from traditional group plans to HSA plans. This removes a high overhead on their part. I know of at least one major company here in the Twin Cities to have done it. Others are proposing it now and implementing it in the next year. While it gives freedom to the people on what company they can wish to go with, it has a much deeper impact than just lower rates. Many people are ineligible for individual insurance through private carriers due to pre-existing conditions. Their options are to either go through a group plan such as through a large company (themselves, or their spouse). Or, sign up with a state sanctioned health plan such as MCHA (Minnesota Comprehensive Health Association http://www.mchamn.com ) which offers lesser insurance at a greater price. The benefit is that you can not, or at least aren't supposed to be, denied coverage when all other options are exhausted with private companies. -- -Shawn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/ee7004 81/attachment-0001.htm ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 25 ****************************************** From josh at tcbug.org Sat Sep 20 16:06:07 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 16:06:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Sabayon Linux 3.5 In-Reply-To: <001601c91b58$93dac5b0$bb905110$@net> References: <001601c91b58$93dac5b0$bb905110$@net> Message-ID: <48D565BF.5020504@tcbug.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Danny wrote: > If anyone out there can tell me how to install this new OS I would > appreciate it. > I put it in my drive and it did a bunch of scrolling in the verbose mode I > guess and > Came to a "root" command.....uh, then what? I wish Linux was easier to > install and use - it's > really frustrating when a regular guy can't figure something out and then ya > have > to send a bunch of emails & hope someone will help you out. > Anyone? > DJ > > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 12:00 PM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 25 > > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: OT: Health insurance (Curtis Griesel) > 2. Re: Server config management question (Sunny) > 3. Re: OT: Health insurance (Mike Miller) > 4. Re: OT: Health insurance (Shawn Fertch) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:01:03 -0500 > From: "Curtis Griesel" > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance > To: "TCLUG Mailing List" > Message-ID: > <7f246bf00809191201u69cb36d3g2497727d8e2eb3a4 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > But auto insurance is heavily regulated by individual states, yet it is very > easy to shop around and buy auto insurance from companies nationwide on the > internet. > > There may be many reasons to end state regulation of health insurance, but > making it easy to shop for health insurance is not one of the reasons. > > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Dan Rue wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: >>> That could change if McCain becomes President: >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html >>> >>> I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the >>> impression that most people don't want to pay tax on their health > benefit. >> Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just >> to clarify, from the link: >> >> While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be >> anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's because >> the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable tax >> credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to be >> used "to help pay for your health care." >> >> So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I >> understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance >> from an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. >> The theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move >> around since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a >> lot of employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for >> small business). >> >> Consider how auto insurance works. Individuals can shop around and >> the policy that best fits their needs and budget, and they're not >> limited to what their employer offers. >> >> More from the article: >> >> Yet another radical element of McCain's plan is his proposal to >> undermine state health insurance regulations by allowing consumers to >> buy insurance from sellers anywhere in the country. So a requirement >> in one state that insurers cover, for example, vaccinations, or >> annual physicals, or breast examinations, would essentially be > meaningless. >> So the author is showing his bias here. Currently, each state has its >> own set of rules for who can sell insurance and what it has to provide. >> Insurance companies have to invest considerable resources for each >> state their in in order to meet all of the individual rules and > regulations. >> Again, like car insurance, the idea is to make health insurance more >> simple by removing the individual state regulations and allowing >> individual families to comparison shop for insurance nationally. >> >> Agree or disagree, it's thought provoking and worth debate (something >> lacking in the current political scene). >> >> Dan (I won't be following up, as we've veered way off topic) >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/a99d32 > 91/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:57:22 -0500 > From: Sunny > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Server config management question > To: "TCLUG List" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Nelson > wrote: >> Jon Schewe wrote: >>> You've still missed the problem. The problem is if someone changes >>> the server without putting the files in subversion. >> Not all problems can be solved with technology. I'll bet if someone >> forgets to put the changes in subversion and loses them, he will have >> a painful reminder not to do that again. He will either learn or he won't. >> If he doesn't you have choices. >> >> However, that being said, there is a way to do what you want. >> >> On each server, run a script to compare the files on the server with >> the files in subversion. If there is a difference, yell, scream, > whatever. >> Email the entire group with the notice that someone goofed, complete >> with full details. (Peer pressure can be useful.) >> >> You can schedule this script to run whenever you want, depending on >> how long you are willing to risk non-detection. >> >> An optimization comes to mind: find only those server files that have >> been changed since the last script run and just compare those. >> >> I'll bet you could even figure out how to kick off this script as a >> pre-commit action so each time someone tries to commit a change, your >> script automatically runs. The commit is aborted if *any* file on >> *any* server is different. Now the person who wants to commit will >> have to stop and figure out what happened and why. (More peer pressure >> can be brought to bear.) >> > > Or, skip the post-commit step, and instead of running rsync, run scheduled > jobs on each server to check the svn log, see the latest update, compare > with the current date/time of the file on the server, and if the server's > version of the file is newer than the svn version, do not update, but ring a > bell. > > Cheers > > > -- > Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) > > Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile > of scrap. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:22:52 -0500 (CDT) > From: Mike Miller > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance > To: Dan Rue > Cc: TCLUG Mailing List > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Dan Rue wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: >>> That could change if McCain becomes President: >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html >>> >>> I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the >>> impression that most people don't want to pay tax on their health > benefit. >> Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just >> to clarify, from the link: >> >> While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be >> anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's >> because the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable >> tax credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to >> be used "to help pay for your health care." >> >> So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I >> understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance >> from an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. >> The theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move >> around since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a >> lot of employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for >> small business). > > Yes, you quoted the article accurately. The topic on this thread was how to > get health insurance at a group rate without being a member of a group. > It sounds like the McCain plan would make it easier for people to choose to > disaffiliate from the group, but how would the system deal with all these > free agents? If unaffiliated people pay more for insurance, why would > people want to disaffiliate from their group? > > Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every employee will > be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group insurance? > > That's one thing I don't understand about the proposed plan -- how > individuals can negotiate good rates when successful negotiation has > historically required a group (e.g., of employees) working together. > > By the way, I only care about the facts and will not stoop to advocating for > one candidate or another on this list. If the McCain plan is great for most > people, fine, if it sucks for most people, fine. I'm only on this topic > because it sounds like the plan will have a major effect on individuals > seeking health insurance. > > Mike > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:32:02 -0500 > From: "Shawn Fertch" > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance > To: "TCLUG Mailing List" > Message-ID: > <67f3084a0809191732r3e796582j709ee7996e92c078 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Mike Miller > wrote: > >> Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every >> employee will be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group > insurance? > > Yes it will. But, by the same token, companies are starting to change their > insurance policies from traditional group plans to HSA plans. This removes > a high overhead on their part. I know of at least one major company here in > the Twin Cities to have done it. Others are proposing it now and > implementing it in the next year. > While it gives freedom to the people on what company they can wish to go > with, it has a much deeper impact than just lower rates. Many people are > ineligible for individual insurance through private carriers due to > pre-existing conditions. Their options are to either go through a group > plan such as through a large company (themselves, or their spouse). Or, > sign up with a state sanctioned health plan such as MCHA (Minnesota > Comprehensive Health Association http://www.mchamn.com ) which offers lesser > insurance at a greater price. The benefit is that you can not, or at least > aren't supposed to be, denied coverage when all other options are exhausted > with private companies. > > > > -- > -Shawn > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/ee7004 > 81/attachment-0001.htm > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 25 > ****************************************** > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > My suggestion is to use distributions that cater to people who want something that just works, like Ubuntu, instead of distributions targeted at the do it yourself crowd like Sabayon and the distro it's based on, Gentoo. - -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFI1WW/JvkB8SevrssRAn4yAJ41MHoDy9FRZVPHVbkBTza0p/iIlwCgiE5p vj+Dat97zZ+Jg8W3UfNq6EI= =Td3B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From erikerik at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:55:49 2008 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:55:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Sabayon Linux 3.5 In-Reply-To: <48D565BF.5020504@tcbug.org> References: <001601c91b58$93dac5b0$bb905110$@net> <48D565BF.5020504@tcbug.org> Message-ID: Agreed - try Ubuntu. You'll be quite pleased. -Erik On 9/20/08, Josh Paetzel wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Danny wrote: >> If anyone out there can tell me how to install this new OS I would >> appreciate it. >> I put it in my drive and it did a bunch of scrolling in the verbose mode I >> guess and >> Came to a "root" command.....uh, then what? I wish Linux was easier to >> install and use - it's >> really frustrating when a regular guy can't figure something out and then >> ya >> have >> to send a bunch of emails & hope someone will help you out. >> Anyone? >> DJ >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org >> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of >> tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org >> Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2008 12:00 PM >> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> Subject: tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 25 >> >> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >> "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: OT: Health insurance (Curtis Griesel) >> 2. Re: Server config management question (Sunny) >> 3. Re: OT: Health insurance (Mike Miller) >> 4. Re: OT: Health insurance (Shawn Fertch) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 14:01:03 -0500 >> From: "Curtis Griesel" >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance >> To: "TCLUG Mailing List" >> Message-ID: >> <7f246bf00809191201u69cb36d3g2497727d8e2eb3a4 at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> But auto insurance is heavily regulated by individual states, yet it is >> very >> easy to shop around and buy auto insurance from companies nationwide on >> the >> internet. >> >> There may be many reasons to end state regulation of health insurance, but >> making it easy to shop for health insurance is not one of the reasons. >> >> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:28 PM, Dan Rue wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: >>>> That could change if McCain becomes President: >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html >>>> >>>> I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the >>>> impression that most people don't want to pay tax on their health >> benefit. >>> Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just >>> to clarify, from the link: >>> >>> While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be >>> anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's because >>> the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable tax >>> credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to be >>> used "to help pay for your health care." >>> >>> So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I >>> understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance >>> from an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. >>> The theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move >>> around since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a >>> lot of employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for >>> small business). >>> >>> Consider how auto insurance works. Individuals can shop around and >>> the policy that best fits their needs and budget, and they're not >>> limited to what their employer offers. >>> >>> More from the article: >>> >>> Yet another radical element of McCain's plan is his proposal to >>> undermine state health insurance regulations by allowing consumers to >>> buy insurance from sellers anywhere in the country. So a requirement >>> in one state that insurers cover, for example, vaccinations, or >>> annual physicals, or breast examinations, would essentially be >> meaningless. >>> So the author is showing his bias here. Currently, each state has its >>> own set of rules for who can sell insurance and what it has to provide. >>> Insurance companies have to invest considerable resources for each >>> state their in in order to meet all of the individual rules and >> regulations. >>> Again, like car insurance, the idea is to make health insurance more >>> simple by removing the individual state regulations and allowing >>> individual families to comparison shop for insurance nationally. >>> >>> Agree or disagree, it's thought provoking and worth debate (something >>> lacking in the current political scene). >>> >>> Dan (I won't be following up, as we've veered way off topic) >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/a99d32 >> 91/attachment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:57:22 -0500 >> From: Sunny >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Server config management question >> To: "TCLUG List" >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Nelson >> wrote: >>> Jon Schewe wrote: >>>> You've still missed the problem. The problem is if someone changes >>>> the server without putting the files in subversion. >>> Not all problems can be solved with technology. I'll bet if someone >>> forgets to put the changes in subversion and loses them, he will have >>> a painful reminder not to do that again. He will either learn or he >>> won't. >>> If he doesn't you have choices. >>> >>> However, that being said, there is a way to do what you want. >>> >>> On each server, run a script to compare the files on the server with >>> the files in subversion. If there is a difference, yell, scream, >> whatever. >>> Email the entire group with the notice that someone goofed, complete >>> with full details. (Peer pressure can be useful.) >>> >>> You can schedule this script to run whenever you want, depending on >>> how long you are willing to risk non-detection. >>> >>> An optimization comes to mind: find only those server files that have >>> been changed since the last script run and just compare those. >>> >>> I'll bet you could even figure out how to kick off this script as a >>> pre-commit action so each time someone tries to commit a change, your >>> script automatically runs. The commit is aborted if *any* file on >>> *any* server is different. Now the person who wants to commit will >>> have to stop and figure out what happened and why. (More peer pressure >>> can be brought to bear.) >>> >> >> Or, skip the post-commit step, and instead of running rsync, run scheduled >> jobs on each server to check the svn log, see the latest update, compare >> with the current date/time of the file on the server, and if the server's >> version of the file is newer than the svn version, do not update, but ring >> a >> bell. >> >> Cheers >> >> >> -- >> Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) >> >> Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a >> pile >> of scrap. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:22:52 -0500 (CDT) >> From: Mike Miller >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance >> To: Dan Rue >> Cc: TCLUG Mailing List >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed >> >> On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Dan Rue wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 04:08:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: >>>> That could change if McCain becomes President: >>>> >>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/16/opinion/16herbert.html >>>> >>>> I suppose the change would be good for someone, but I have the >>>> impression that most people don't want to pay tax on their health >> benefit. >>> Egads, politics on tclug.. I'm not going to get sucked in, but just >>> to clarify, from the link: >>> >>> While there might be less money in the paycheck, that would not be >>> anything to worry about, according to Senator McCain. That's >>> because the government would be offering all taxpayers a refundable >>> tax credit - $2,500 for a single worker and $5,000 per family - to >>> be used "to help pay for your health care." >>> >>> So, i'm not an apologist, but to clarify the strategy here, as I >>> understand it. The idea is to move the burden of health insurance >>> from an employer sponsored benefit to an individual family decision. >>> The theory is that this will give employees more freedom to move >>> around since they benefits aren't as important, and it will reduce a >>> lot of employer overhead in terms of providing such benefits (esp for >>> small business). >> >> Yes, you quoted the article accurately. The topic on this thread was how >> to >> get health insurance at a group rate without being a member of a group. >> It sounds like the McCain plan would make it easier for people to choose >> to >> disaffiliate from the group, but how would the system deal with all these >> free agents? If unaffiliated people pay more for insurance, why would >> people want to disaffiliate from their group? >> >> Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every employee >> will >> be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group insurance? >> >> That's one thing I don't understand about the proposed plan -- how >> individuals can negotiate good rates when successful negotiation has >> historically required a group (e.g., of employees) working together. >> >> By the way, I only care about the facts and will not stoop to advocating >> for >> one candidate or another on this list. If the McCain plan is great for >> most >> people, fine, if it sucks for most people, fine. I'm only on this topic >> because it sounds like the plan will have a major effect on individuals >> seeking health insurance. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:32:02 -0500 >> From: "Shawn Fertch" >> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Health insurance >> To: "TCLUG Mailing List" >> Message-ID: >> <67f3084a0809191732r3e796582j709ee7996e92c078 at mail.gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:22 PM, Mike Miller >> wrote: >> >>> Don't employers get a group rate because they agree that every >>> employee will be insured? If so, won't the McCain plan undermine group >> insurance? >> >> Yes it will. But, by the same token, companies are starting to change >> their >> insurance policies from traditional group plans to HSA plans. This >> removes >> a high overhead on their part. I know of at least one major company here >> in >> the Twin Cities to have done it. Others are proposing it now and >> implementing it in the next year. >> While it gives freedom to the people on what company they can wish to go >> with, it has a much deeper impact than just lower rates. Many people are >> ineligible for individual insurance through private carriers due to >> pre-existing conditions. Their options are to either go through a group >> plan such as through a large company (themselves, or their spouse). Or, >> sign up with a state sanctioned health plan such as MCHA (Minnesota >> Comprehensive Health Association http://www.mchamn.com ) which offers >> lesser >> insurance at a greater price. The benefit is that you can not, or at >> least >> aren't supposed to be, denied coverage when all other options are >> exhausted >> with private companies. >> >> >> >> -- >> -Shawn >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080919/ee7004 >> 81/attachment-0001.htm >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 25 >> ****************************************** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > My suggestion is to use distributions that cater to people who want > something that just works, like Ubuntu, instead of distributions > targeted at the do it yourself crowd like Sabayon and the distro it's > based on, Gentoo. > > - -- > Thanks, > > Josh Paetzel > > PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) > > iD8DBQFI1WW/JvkB8SevrssRAn4yAJ41MHoDy9FRZVPHVbkBTza0p/iIlwCgiE5p > vj+Dat97zZ+Jg8W3UfNq6EI= > =Td3B > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Erik Anderson http://andersonfam.org From mgreenly at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 09:35:16 2008 From: mgreenly at gmail.com (michael greenly) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:35:16 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: References: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: I've personally used ServerBeach and was very happy with it. I'm very comfortable recommending them. I never had any unscheduled downtime in three years of using them. They have plans starting as low as $75 for dedicated unmanaged machines and they go up from there. They have good tools that allow you to manage the boot process, force restarts, etc... They provide Debian, Centos, Redhat and Fedora hosting. In your case I'd suggest just sticking with Debian but it's fairly straight forward to migrate from Debian to Ubuntu, you can find the details in they're forums. Just to honor the spirit of full disclosure I did quit using ServerBeach about a year ago and moved to Amazon's Web Services. Specifically their Elastic Cloud Computing (EC2) for hosting. It costs a tiny bit more but I find the trade of in flexibility worth it. The advantage of being able to provision and deploy as many machines as I want any time I want is worth it to me. That combined with the fact that I'm also doing application development on top of thier other services S3, SQSand SimpleDBit was the right choice for me. Amazon's EC2 did have some downtime this year, it is still a beta service. On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Jordan Peacock wrote: > To answer Richard > > There are about 7 unique sites that, ideally, I would put on the same host. > But if push comes to shove, there is only 1 of them that is really the > resource hog. It isn't too bad with bandwidth (25 GB/month was the heaviest) > but on a shared virtual server at the existing hosting company it was eating > up more than 10% of the CPU/RAM so it got moved to it's own VPS. > > Unfortunately, I've been trying to get specific numbers on the CPU and RAM > usage but have not found anything concrete as yet. > > Thanks to everyone for suggestions thus far; they've been a great help. I'm > going over them one at a time now... > > ====================== > Jordan Peacock > hewhocutsdown at gmail.com > hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com > > > On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:38 PM, Josh Paetzel wrote: > >> On Monday 15 September 2008 12:10:21 pm Jordan Peacock wrote: >> > Any recommendations? >> > >> > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some of the >> > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the shared >> virtual >> > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying >> > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this is for >> a >> > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as it >> is. >> > >> > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it myself, >> or >> > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate the >> server >> > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on that. >> > >> > ====================== >> > Jordan Peacock >> > hewhocutsdown at gmail.com >> > hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com >> >> You might take a look at Pajunas Interactive, which is fairly NPO >> friendly, is >> run by a drupal dev, is here in the Twin Cities, and hosts everything on >> FreeBSD, which is just like debian, only better. :) >> >> >> -- >> Thanks, >> >> Josh Paetzel >> >> PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5A8C 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB >> > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Michael Greenly http://blog.michaelgreenly.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080921/c0fc88b2/attachment.htm From ecrist at secure-computing.net Sun Sep 21 09:59:41 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:59:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: References: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: > > Any recommendations? > > > > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some > of the > > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the > shared virtual > > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying > > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this > is for a > > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as > it is. > > > > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it > myself, or > > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate > the server > > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on > that. Sorry I'm coming into this late. If you're not experiencing huge bandwidth requirements from any of the sites you're hosting, I'd recommend DSL and hosting things at your own home, provided you have space. As you suggest this above, I'm guessing this isn't a problem. For many, many, years, I've hosted my things on a server in my own basement. I've got DSL from ipHouse (iphouse.net), and very reliable power in my neighborhood. Comcast is even allowing webhosting on their connections now, provided you go with the business-level service. With that, you can get blocks of IPs, the same as has been the case with DSL for years. Their upload speed ranges from 1 to 2 Mbps, whereas DSL caps out at ~800Kbps. Qwest is offering a new 20Mbps fibre option, but I'm not sure about their terms on personal web hosting. If that doesn't work for you, I know of at least one person who uses Colo Pronto (www.colopronto.com) without too much issue. You ship down your own 1u server, pay $25/mo and you get a 100Mb connection to the world (shared, of course). They make their money on service, however. Reboots, eyes and hands, etc. I'd caution you on them only in regards to outgoing spam. UCEPROTECT has them listed at various levels on a fairly regular basis, a few times at level 3 (the entire AS was blacklisted). Now, when you run you servers at home, there is going to be the occasional downtime. No, or little, battery backup; no connection redundancy; you're out of town on vacation and cannot reboot that firewall you *had* to reconfigure from the beach. Overall, I find it's nice to have control of things. --- Eric Crist From jima at beer.tclug.org Sun Sep 21 13:32:33 2008 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 13:32:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Sabayon Linux 3.5 In-Reply-To: <001601c91b58$93dac5b0$bb905110$@net> References: <001601c91b58$93dac5b0$bb905110$@net> Message-ID: <48D69341.1010009@beer.tclug.org> Danny wrote: > If anyone out there can tell me how to install this new OS I would > appreciate it. > I put it in my drive and it did a bunch of scrolling in the verbose mode I > guess and > Came to a "root" command.....uh, then what? I wish Linux was easier to > install and use - it's > really frustrating when a regular guy can't figure something out and then ya > have > to send a bunch of emails & hope someone will help you out. > Anyone? > DJ I'm going to second Josh's stance on this; if you're on a list asking how to install it, you're probably not Sabayon's (or Gentoo's) target audience. (But then, neither am I, albeit for different reasons.) I too would recommend a more straightforward distro like Fedora or (echoing Josh) Ubuntu. If you're hellbent on going with Sabayon, I'd start by Googling "Sabayon howto"; there seem to be some potentially promising results. Jima From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 23:14:48 2008 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:14:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: References: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: Thank you all for the feedback. I've talked to/played with a few potentials and am going to do Slicehost for the largest site....and the rest of them once I figure out how to neatly consolidate things. Thanks to all, and to all a good night. ====================== Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Eric F Crist wrote: > > Any recommendations? >> > >> > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some of the >> > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the shared >> virtual >> > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying >> > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this is for >> a >> > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as it >> is. >> > >> > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it myself, >> or >> > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate the >> server >> > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on that. >> > > Sorry I'm coming into this late. If you're not experiencing huge bandwidth > requirements from any of the sites you're hosting, I'd recommend DSL and > hosting things at your own home, provided you have space. As you suggest > this above, I'm guessing this isn't a problem. > > For many, many, years, I've hosted my things on a server in my own > basement. I've got DSL from ipHouse (iphouse.net), and very reliable > power in my neighborhood. Comcast is even allowing webhosting on their > connections now, provided you go with the business-level service. With > that, you can get blocks of IPs, the same as has been the case with DSL for > years. Their upload speed ranges from 1 to 2 Mbps, whereas DSL caps out at > ~800Kbps. Qwest is offering a new 20Mbps fibre option, but I'm not sure > about their terms on personal web hosting. > > If that doesn't work for you, I know of at least one person who uses Colo > Pronto (www.colopronto.com) without too much issue. You ship down your > own 1u server, pay $25/mo and you get a 100Mb connection to the world > (shared, of course). They make their money on service, however. Reboots, > eyes and hands, etc. I'd caution you on them only in regards to outgoing > spam. UCEPROTECT has them listed at various levels on a fairly regular > basis, a few times at level 3 (the entire AS was blacklisted). > > Now, when you run you servers at home, there is going to be the occasional > downtime. No, or little, battery backup; no connection redundancy; you're > out of town on vacation and cannot reboot that firewall you *had* to > reconfigure from the beach. Overall, I find it's nice to have control of > things. > > --- > Eric Crist > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080921/13ddd6a5/attachment.htm From ecrist at secure-computing.net Sun Sep 21 23:49:59 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:49:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: References: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <066B6EAF-A97E-49E5-9234-D821152C4743@secure-computing.net> Why Slicehost? /me reads... * Choice of Linux distro. Crap. Oh yeah, this is a Linux list. :) But, seriously, all seriousness aside, what were your pluses and minuses for Slicehost? Thanks, Eric On Sep 21, 2008, at 11:14 PM, Jordan Peacock wrote: > Thank you all for the feedback. I've talked to/played with a few > potentials and am going to do Slicehost for the largest site....and > the rest of them once I figure out how to neatly consolidate things. > > Thanks to all, and to all a good night. > > ====================== > Jordan Peacock > hewhocutsdown at gmail.com > hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com > > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Eric F Crist > wrote: > > Any recommendations? > > > > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some > of the > > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the > shared virtual > > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying > > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this > is for a > > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as > it is. > > > > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it > myself, or > > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate > the server > > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on > that. > > Sorry I'm coming into this late. If you're not experiencing huge > bandwidth requirements from any of the sites you're hosting, I'd > recommend DSL and hosting things at your own home, provided you have > space. As you suggest this above, I'm guessing this isn't a problem. > > For many, many, years, I've hosted my things on a server in my own > basement. I've got DSL from ipHouse (iphouse.net), and very > reliable power in my neighborhood. Comcast is even allowing > webhosting on their connections now, provided you go with the > business-level service. With that, you can get blocks of IPs, the > same as has been the case with DSL for years. Their upload speed > ranges from 1 to 2 Mbps, whereas DSL caps out at ~800Kbps. Qwest is > offering a new 20Mbps fibre option, but I'm not sure about their > terms on personal web hosting. > > If that doesn't work for you, I know of at least one person who uses > Colo Pronto (www.colopronto.com) without too much issue. You ship > down your own 1u server, pay $25/mo and you get a 100Mb connection > to the world (shared, of course). They make their money on service, > however. Reboots, eyes and hands, etc. I'd caution you on them > only in regards to outgoing spam. UCEPROTECT has them listed at > various levels on a fairly regular basis, a few times at level 3 > (the entire AS was blacklisted). > > Now, when you run you servers at home, there is going to be the > occasional downtime. No, or little, battery backup; no connection > redundancy; you're out of town on vacation and cannot reboot that > firewall you *had* to reconfigure from the beach. Overall, I find > it's nice to have control of things. > > --- > Eric Crist > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list --- Eric Crist From webmaster at mn-linux.org Mon Sep 22 00:31:23 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 00:31:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809220531.m8M5VNZ12849@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: IBM ThinkCentre P4 3GHz desktop IBM ThinkCentre M50 (8187KUQ) Intel Pentium 4 3.0 GHz Hyperthread 512 MB memory (4 GB max) 40 GB IDE hard disk CDRW/DVD drive 3.5" floppy 4x4 desktop case on-board sound, video, Gigabit ethernet, many USB ports Includes: PS/2 keyboard, mouse, power cord NO monitor Windows XP Professional pre-installed and IBM factory recovery partition Lotus Smart Suite System is used but in like-NEW condition. It was purchased several months ago from IBM's certified used PC program and used very little. I'm moving and don't have room for it. $275 firm, CASH ONLY Email to arrange pickup in SW Minneapolis, I will not ship it. Serious inquiries only thanks. Seller Email address: blackcrow77 at yahoo dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From cncole at earthlink.net Mon Sep 22 06:26:32 2008 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 06:26:32 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Sabayon Linux 3.5 In-Reply-To: <48D69341.1010009@beer.tclug.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jima > Sent: Sunday, September 21, 2008 1:33 PM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Sabayon Linux 3.5 > > > Danny wrote: > > If anyone out there can tell me how to install this new OS I would > > appreciate it.... > > I'm going to second Josh's stance on this; if you're on a list asking > how to install it, you're probably not Sabayon's (or Gentoo's) target > audience.... I was curious to see whether there's a reference for "target audience" so I did two Google searches: Google: compare Linux distributions had two good responses, but little on "target audience": A Linux Distribution Comparison Matrix www.devx.com/opensource/Article/30781 Comparison of Linux distributions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Linux_distributions Google: target audience for Linux distributions had many interesting responses Linus Torvald's O'Reilly interview comments were interesting, but not very inclusive http://news.oreilly.com/2008/07/linux-torvalds-on-linux-distri.html Linux-distribution - SWiK (good, but short notes) http://swik.net/Linux-distribution I got tired of looking for better "target audience" characterizations, but found interesting tidbits and more questions to ask. 1) does MythTV "do better" in the MythDora distro than MythTV does in Ubuntu? a) what is "better"? b) is support for the Adaptec AVC-3610 (or other tuners, etc) any better in MythDora than MythTV itself? 2) what distro is "best" for scientific or engineering desktop applications? Anything "better" than Ubuntu for this? Anybody doing or interested in Verilog-AMS or VHDL-AMS or optical design? Chuck From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 07:11:50 2008 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:11:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: <066B6EAF-A97E-49E5-9234-D821152C4743@secure-computing.net> References: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> <066B6EAF-A97E-49E5-9234-D821152C4743@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: Speed of initial setup. Full root access/choice of distro Legalese/TOS (the situations I will and will not be charged over) I've also discovered that trying to host from home isn't going to work, and I've had a tough time with EC2 when I last tried it (a few months ago), plus it's beta. There were a couple other runners-up that I'm pretty sure would be equally effective. It came down to more or less a flip of a coin between a couple of them. Nevertheless, pretty much all these options were new to me, so thank you for your input everyone, and your anecdotes and personal experiences. It helped a lot. ====================== Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 11:49 PM, Eric F Crist wrote: > Why Slicehost? > > /me reads... > > * Choice of Linux distro. > > Crap. > > Oh yeah, this is a Linux list. > > :) > > But, seriously, all seriousness aside, what were your pluses and minuses > for Slicehost? > > Thanks, > > Eric > > > > On Sep 21, 2008, at 11:14 PM, Jordan Peacock wrote: > > Thank you all for the feedback. I've talked to/played with a few >> potentials and am going to do Slicehost for the largest site....and the rest >> of them once I figure out how to neatly consolidate things. >> >> Thanks to all, and to all a good night. >> >> ====================== >> Jordan Peacock >> hewhocutsdown at gmail.com >> hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Eric F Crist < >> ecrist at secure-computing.net> wrote: >> > Any recommendations? >> > >> > It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some of the >> > lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the shared >> virtual >> > servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying >> > $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this is for >> a >> > non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as it >> is. >> > >> > Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it myself, >> or >> > go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate the >> server >> > as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on that. >> >> Sorry I'm coming into this late. If you're not experiencing huge >> bandwidth requirements from any of the sites you're hosting, I'd recommend >> DSL and hosting things at your own home, provided you have space. As you >> suggest this above, I'm guessing this isn't a problem. >> >> For many, many, years, I've hosted my things on a server in my own >> basement. I've got DSL from ipHouse (iphouse.net), and very reliable >> power in my neighborhood. Comcast is even allowing webhosting on their >> connections now, provided you go with the business-level service. With >> that, you can get blocks of IPs, the same as has been the case with DSL for >> years. Their upload speed ranges from 1 to 2 Mbps, whereas DSL caps out at >> ~800Kbps. Qwest is offering a new 20Mbps fibre option, but I'm not sure >> about their terms on personal web hosting. >> >> If that doesn't work for you, I know of at least one person who uses Colo >> Pronto (www.colopronto.com) without too much issue. You ship down your >> own 1u server, pay $25/mo and you get a 100Mb connection to the world >> (shared, of course). They make their money on service, however. Reboots, >> eyes and hands, etc. I'd caution you on them only in regards to outgoing >> spam. UCEPROTECT has them listed at various levels on a fairly regular >> basis, a few times at level 3 (the entire AS was blacklisted). >> >> Now, when you run you servers at home, there is going to be the occasional >> downtime. No, or little, battery backup; no connection redundancy; you're >> out of town on vacation and cannot reboot that firewall you *had* to >> reconfigure from the beach. Overall, I find it's nice to have control of >> things. >> >> --- >> Eric Crist >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > --- > Eric Crist > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080922/de4bbd9a/attachment-0001.htm From scottsloan at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 11:59:17 2008 From: scottsloan at gmail.com (Scott Sloan) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:59:17 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Southwest Developer's Get Together Message-ID: <44a609550809220959l2bd5f9am509eae9137b49547@mail.gmail.com> I'm just testing the waters, but was wondering what would be the interest in a get together for software developers? Developer's would be welcome to bring projects for peer review, discussion, or just to get help/ideas on problem areas. If there is a high interest, location would probably be somewhere in the southwest metro area. Is there such an interest? -- Sincerely, Scott Sloan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080922/3fa2095c/attachment.htm From tommyj27 at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 13:27:55 2008 From: tommyj27 at gmail.com (Thomas Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:27:55 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF Bookmarks? Message-ID: <1469cda20809221127h6a40ca0br27a6cc846f271b5@mail.gmail.com> I have a motorcycle shop manual in PDF format that I am constantly flipping around in to find various pieces of information. It would be really nice if I could bookmark frequently used pages for future reference (as you would do with a web browser). Is there a PDF viewer/plugin/whatever that has this functionality? Some googling turned up an ugly javascript hack ( http://www.pdfhacks.com/bookmark_page/) for adobe reader that worked, but not very well (inconvenient, no way to organize bookmarks, etc.). I was hoping to find something that works a little better than this. Thanks, Tom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080922/56de3859/attachment.htm From stuff at cb1inc.com Mon Sep 22 14:11:22 2008 From: stuff at cb1inc.com (Chris Barber) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:11:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu or Debian hosting for Drupal In-Reply-To: <066B6EAF-A97E-49E5-9234-D821152C4743@secure-computing.net> References: <200809151238.22728.josh@tcbug.org> <066B6EAF-A97E-49E5-9234-D821152C4743@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: <48D7EDDA.1060103@cb1inc.com> I've only been at Slicehost for a couple months and I haven't had any issues yet. The server uptime, billing, and support have been great. Upgrading a slice from 512MB to 1GB worked flawlessly and relatively quickly. Backup snapshots of the slice work like a champ. The admin system isn't bad. It's clean and easy to use. The Ajax terminal is slick. You can use Slicehost to manage your DNS, which I do, but it is a little cumbersome at first. They also have a bunch of good articles on installing various web servers and such. The Slices are 64-bit and the server on my slice has 4 CPUs/cores of which I am guaranteed one of them, but can use more CPU if the other slices aren't busy. In the end, I have had a really great experience so far. I pay $87/month for a 1GB slice, backups, and a second IP address. I figure that isn't that bad since I figure it was costing me about that much when I was hosting stuff out of my house and had to deal with business class internet, power consumption, and hardware failures. -Chris Eric F Crist wrote: > Why Slicehost? > > /me reads... > > * Choice of Linux distro. > > Crap. > > Oh yeah, this is a Linux list. > > :) > > But, seriously, all seriousness aside, what were your pluses and > minuses for Slicehost? > > Thanks, > > Eric > > > On Sep 21, 2008, at 11:14 PM, Jordan Peacock wrote: > > >> Thank you all for the feedback. I've talked to/played with a few >> potentials and am going to do Slicehost for the largest site....and >> the rest of them once I figure out how to neatly consolidate things. >> >> Thanks to all, and to all a good night. >> >> ====================== >> Jordan Peacock >> hewhocutsdown at gmail.com >> hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com >> >> >> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 9:59 AM, Eric F Crist > >>> wrote: >>> Any recommendations? >>> >>> It's for an existing site that exceeds the CPU/RAM usage of some >>> >> of the >> >>> lower-priced basic offerings from AN Hosting or GoDaddy (the >>> >> shared virtual >> >>> servers). Not a heavy hard drive or bandwidth site. Currently paying >>> $150/quarter, looking to lower that as much as possible, as this >>> >> is for a >> >>> non-profit organization that is on half of a shoe-string budget as >>> >> it is. >> >>> Does it make sense to upgrade my internet connection and host it >>> >> myself, or >> >>> go after a hosting company? Ideally I would like to administrate >>> >> the server >> >>> as well and have it run Ubuntu or Debian, but I'm not hellbent on >>> >> that. >> >> Sorry I'm coming into this late. If you're not experiencing huge >> bandwidth requirements from any of the sites you're hosting, I'd >> recommend DSL and hosting things at your own home, provided you have >> space. As you suggest this above, I'm guessing this isn't a problem. >> >> For many, many, years, I've hosted my things on a server in my own >> basement. I've got DSL from ipHouse (iphouse.net), and very >> reliable power in my neighborhood. Comcast is even allowing >> webhosting on their connections now, provided you go with the >> business-level service. With that, you can get blocks of IPs, the >> same as has been the case with DSL for years. Their upload speed >> ranges from 1 to 2 Mbps, whereas DSL caps out at ~800Kbps. Qwest is >> offering a new 20Mbps fibre option, but I'm not sure about their >> terms on personal web hosting. >> >> If that doesn't work for you, I know of at least one person who uses >> Colo Pronto (www.colopronto.com) without too much issue. You ship >> down your own 1u server, pay $25/mo and you get a 100Mb connection >> to the world (shared, of course). They make their money on service, >> however. Reboots, eyes and hands, etc. I'd caution you on them >> only in regards to outgoing spam. UCEPROTECT has them listed at >> various levels on a fairly regular basis, a few times at level 3 >> (the entire AS was blacklisted). >> >> Now, when you run you servers at home, there is going to be the >> occasional downtime. No, or little, battery backup; no connection >> redundancy; you're out of town on vacation and cannot reboot that >> firewall you *had* to reconfigure from the beach. Overall, I find >> it's nice to have control of things. >> >> --- >> Eric Crist >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > --- > Eric Crist > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080922/a8a9f5a7/attachment.htm From mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 15:46:05 2008 From: mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com (Mark Mitchell) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:46:05 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] cataloging files on offline media Message-ID: <4bca4b7c0809221346s18cebd09w4d6111f01dde725e@mail.gmail.com> I have a large number of files that live on offline media (data DVD), and it's getting difficult to keep track of which dvd (out of 100+ disks currently) the file I want is on. Does anyone have any suggestions for creating a searchable database where I could enter a substring of a filename and have the database return full filenames and the correct disk. I know this situation has occurred before and been solved by others, but I can't find any descriptions on how such a system would be organized. Anyone have any pointers for me? Also FYI; this would be on a Debian system, and I may end up inheriting 4 Imation DiscStakkas in the not-to-distant future. Right now the disks live in cd/dvd sleeves in 2-3 3-ring binders. Thanks, Mark From ecrist at secure-computing.net Mon Sep 22 17:39:22 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 17:39:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] cataloging files on offline media In-Reply-To: <4bca4b7c0809221346s18cebd09w4d6111f01dde725e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4bca4b7c0809221346s18cebd09w4d6111f01dde725e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E92ECCC-CA44-436A-9012-284D0F6D1FF8@secure-computing.net> On Sep 22, 2008, at 3:46 PM, Mark Mitchell wrote: > I have a large number of files that live on offline media (data DVD), > and it's getting difficult to keep track of which dvd (out of 100+ > disks currently) the file I want is on. > > Does anyone have any suggestions for creating a searchable database > where I could enter a substring of a filename and have the database > return full filenames and the correct disk. > > I know this situation has occurred before and been solved by others, > but I can't find any descriptions on how such a system would be > organized. > > Anyone have any pointers for me? How about grep and a flat text file? Disk Filename You could gzip the text file, and gzcat filename | grep "foo" --- Eric Crist From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Sep 22 19:14:33 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:14:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Google Chrome for Linux? Message-ID: Is the probability really only 2% that Google Chrome for Linux will exist before December 1? It looks like the Intrade price dropped from almost 100 to almost zero from 9/17 to 9/18: http://www.intrade.net/market/detail/marketChart.faces?contractId=303279 What does that mean? There must have been some news. Why only 2%? Is that because there will be no Chrome for Linux, only Chromium?: http://www.webtlk.com/2008/09/17/download-google-chrome-for-mac-and-linux/ Maybe it is because of this: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=10087 But if it hits Mac first, how long after that will the Linux port take? I guess it depends on how they are compiling it. Anyway, just some thoughts. I'm using Chrome on Windows and it is nice that every tab is a process that can be killed off if it has a problem (e.g., memory leak, CPU running amok). Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Sep 22 19:19:46 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:19:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Google Chrome for Linux? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Mike Miller wrote: > Maybe it is because of this: > > http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=10087 > > But if it hits Mac first, how long after that will the Linux port take? > I guess it depends on how they are compiling it. Maybe this is the bigger problem: Google Chrome...is Windows inside, which may be a strategic error http://news.cnet.com/8301-13505_3-10041399-16.html Makes me wish I'd bet against the pre-12/1 release on 9/16! Mike From haircut at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 20:46:33 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:46:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Announcement: Wed, Sept 24, 6:30 - 8:00pm In-Reply-To: <200809181607.45420.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <200711051205.21920.tclug@lizakowski.com> <200809181607.45420.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <9ebd65110809221846v59de810fs6a1814d7d578be6f@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy wrote: > The next TCLUG meeting is coming soon! I look forward to presenting! Would someone mind updating http://www.mn-linux.org ? The "latest news" is from Monday, March 31, 2008. Also, is anyone on any U of M mailing lists that would be appropriate forums for promoting the talk? -- Adam Monsen From teeahr1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 21:50:57 2008 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 21:50:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data recovery help - "no such file or directory when trying to open /dev/sdd1" Message-ID: <200809222151.02216.teeahr1@gmail.com> Yep, it looks pretty grim. The IDE cable to my music drive had a frayed end, and now this morning on boot, fsck said "no such file or directory when trying to open /dev/sdd1. The superblock could not be read or does not describe a correct ext2 filesystem. If the device is valid and it really contains an ext2 filesystem (and not swap or ufs or something else), then the superblock is corrupt and you might try running e2fsck with an alternate superblock: e2fsck -b 8193 ". Running fsck manually gives the same message. Parted and fdisk no longer see sdd at all. It's just gone. I've tried swapping it out and putting a different drive in there and it detects fine, and the bad drive doesn't work no matter where I try it (in another machine and in a USB enclosure) so I don't think it's the connection. I am at a total loss. Does anyone have any advice in this situation? Everything I know about data recovery I've learned in the last (completely fruitless) 12 hours, so I may well be missing an obvious trick. God, I hope so. -pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080922/f7eac89e/attachment-0001.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080922/f7eac89e/attachment-0001.pgp From gm5729 at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 22:14:37 2008 From: gm5729 at gmail.com (GK) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 20:14:37 -0700 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list Message-ID: <200809222014.48930.gm5729@gmail.com> Hi all. I am new to the area and currently staying with a friend on the north side of town in Blaine. I was active in Phx LUG for the past couple of years at Stammtischs or Installfests. I have been using Linux for the past 6 years and have mostly been with the Debian distro though I have probably tried all the major ones at least once. Lenny runs on both my lappie and server :) Hope to get a chance to meet some of you all and develop long term relationships. As a side note I am looking for work in this area. In talking with the main coordinator of the Phx Lug he said I would be good as a beginning linux sys admin. I just love Linux overall and enjoy working with installs, hardware and such. I can do it all day for hours a day. Anyway.... Vi^3PirePengy -- ------- GPG signed Many individuals and organizations around the globe have developed international cross platform protocols to support your freedoms and ideas. Please support Open Standards for software and hardware with cross platform ISO standards and not proprietary formats from monopolies and the associated vendor lockin. If you are a Windows user protect yourself from various known software vulnerabilities that allow virii, malware, adware, trojans, etc., and use Firefox/Mozilla with NoScript for web browsing and not Internet Explorer. HTML emails, Microsoft DOC(X)/XLS(X) formats are not acceptable to send me. Please enclose inline or by attachment with RTF, TXT, DJVU or PDF formats. Thank You. This email generated by a Linux Operating System and accompanying software. Encryption of data and emails is encouraged and welcomed with GnuPG. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080922/ab0e1a85/attachment.pgp From tclug at freakzilla.com Tue Sep 23 00:06:31 2008 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 00:06:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: <200809222014.48930.gm5729@gmail.com> References: <200809222014.48930.gm5729@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi there, On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, GK wrote: > Hi all. I am new to the area and currently staying with a friend on the north > side of town in Blaine. Welcome to Minnesota! Just a quick note - please don't refer to your laptop as a "lappie". Here in Minnesota, it's called a "Hot-dish". -Yaron -- From haircut at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 06:38:55 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 06:38:55 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Announcement: Wed, Sept 24, 6:30 - 8:00pm In-Reply-To: <965517.6224.qm@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <965517.6224.qm@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9ebd65110809230438i5d46a739y1f4264ebc60e9ad9@mail.gmail.com> Hi Robert, On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 10:38 PM, Robert Wilkinson wrote: > I attempted to contact several people about the date/time/location of > the next meeting with no response. Can you (or anyone) fill me in please? Date: Wed, Sept 24th Time: 6:30 - 8:00 pm University of Minnesota Minneapolis campus, EE/CSci Building , Room: 3-115 200 Union St SE, Minneapolis 55455 http://www.tclug.org More info about the next meeting: http://tinyurl.com/539fgp (original, untiny URL: http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2008-September/054787.html ) -- Adam Monsen From andyschmid at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 08:02:25 2008 From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 08:02:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data recovery help - "no such file or directory when trying to open /dev/sdd1" In-Reply-To: <200809222151.02216.teeahr1@gmail.com> References: <200809222151.02216.teeahr1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7b7c42a30809230602m14c38da0lb1d47f531159fc39@mail.gmail.com> I would first start troubleshooting everything. Change jumper settings, ide channel, ribbon cables, etc. I'd also grep through your system logs, see if dmesg outputs any info about the drive failing when you boot up your system. You could also try the drive in a windows machine to see if it even recognizes it in the disk manager. Also, I'd try it on another motherboard or IDE controller. One more thing, you could see if your BIOS support SMART, and try toggling that on/off. If you can get the os to see your /dev/hdd device, you can try copying the disk bit by bit to a spare you have laying around (same size or bigger), or to a file on your OS drive (if large enough). using the dd command, this can be easily accomplished (on a working drive, that is). dd if=/dev/hdd of=/dev/hdx(second drive) replace of=/dev/hdx with a file path if you want to do it that way, e.x. of=/home/user/file If you can do that successfully, you now have a 1 to 1 copy of your drive, including any errors that were on it. You can now safely try to recover your corrupt partition on the copy, without the risk of further damaging the original. One thing I've done in the past to recover a corrupt partition table, is basically rewrite the partition table (if you know the original partition boundaries and types). Disclaimer: Be sure you aren't formatting said partition, only write over the partition table. Feel free to contact me off list about this, in the past I've recovered quite a few drives using gnu/linux tools. Andy On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 9:50 PM, p.daniels wrote: > Yep, it looks pretty grim. The IDE cable to my music drive had a frayed > end, and now this morning on boot, fsck said "no such file or directory > when trying to open /dev/sdd1. The superblock could not be read or does > not describe a correct ext2 filesystem. If the device is valid and it really > contains an ext2 filesystem (and not swap or ufs or something else), then > the superblock is corrupt and you might try running e2fsck with an alternate > superblock: > e2fsck -b 8193 ". Running fsck manually gives the same message. > > Parted and fdisk no longer see sdd at all. It's just gone. I've tried > swapping it out and putting a different drive in there and it detects fine, > and the bad drive doesn't work no matter where I try it (in another machine > and in a USB enclosure) so I don't think it's the connection. I am at a > total loss. Does anyone have any advice in this situation? Everything I know > about data recovery I've learned in the last (completely fruitless) 12 > hours, so I may well be missing an obvious trick. God, I hope so. > > -pete > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080923/22eeb439/attachment.htm From ian.greenleaf at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 10:37:49 2008 From: ian.greenleaf at gmail.com (Ian Young) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 10:37:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data recovery help - "no such file or directory when trying to open /dev/sdd1" In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a30809230602m14c38da0lb1d47f531159fc39@mail.gmail.com> References: <200809222151.02216.teeahr1@gmail.com> <7b7c42a30809230602m14c38da0lb1d47f531159fc39@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48D90D4D.4050803@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 To add to the list of tools Andy mentioned: ddrescue is similar to dd, but is really great about not choking, even if your disk is in terrible shape. parted has its own rescue function that will try to find lost partitions, without you needing to know exactly where they were. And check out TestDisk and PhotoRec - they are brilliant tools, and can come through when all hope seems lost. Of course, all of these tools can only help if the computer at least recognizes that the drive is there, which is your problem. Try entering your BIOS setup and see if the drive shows up there. Also, try getting your ear close to the drive when you power on the computer and see if you can hear it spinning up. Also, keep trying. Try plugging it in again tomorrow. Try plugging it in two weeks from now. I can't give any rational explanation for why this would help, but I've seen drives that everyone has given up on inexplicably come back from the dead and become recognized again out of the blue. Of course, if this does happen, don't turn off your computer and do copy all your data somewhere else ASAP. Good luck! Ian Andy Schmid wrote: > I would first start troubleshooting everything. Change jumper settings, > ide channel, ribbon cables, etc. I'd also grep through your system > logs, see if dmesg outputs any info about the drive failing when you > boot up your system. You could also try the drive in a windows machine > to see if it even recognizes it in the disk manager. Also, I'd try it > on another motherboard or IDE controller. One more thing, you could see > if your BIOS support SMART, and try toggling that on/off. > > If you can get the os to see your /dev/hdd device, you can try copying > the disk bit by bit to a spare you have laying around (same size or > bigger), or to a file on your OS drive (if large enough). using the dd > command, this can be easily accomplished (on a working drive, that is). > > dd if=/dev/hdd of=/dev/hdx(second drive) > > replace of=/dev/hdx with a file path if you want to do it that way, e.x. > of=/home/user/file > > If you can do that successfully, you now have a 1 to 1 copy of your > drive, including any errors that were on it. You can now safely try to > recover your corrupt partition on the copy, without the risk of further > damaging the original. > > One thing I've done in the past to recover a corrupt partition table, is > basically rewrite the partition table (if you know the original > partition boundaries and types). Disclaimer: Be sure you aren't > formatting said partition, only write over the partition table. > > Feel free to contact me off list about this, in the past I've recovered > quite a few drives using gnu/linux tools. > > Andy > > On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 9:50 PM, p.daniels > wrote: > > Yep, it looks pretty grim. The IDE cable to my music drive had a > frayed end, and now this morning on boot, fsck said "no such file or > directory when trying to open /dev/sdd1. The superblock could not be > read or does not describe a correct ext2 filesystem. If the device > is valid and it really contains an ext2 filesystem (and not swap or > ufs or something else), then the superblock is corrupt and you might > try running e2fsck with an alternate superblock: > e2fsck -b 8193 ". Running fsck manually gives the same message. > > Parted and fdisk no longer see sdd at all. It's just gone. I've > tried swapping it out and putting a different drive in there and it > detects fine, and the bad drive doesn't work no matter where I try > it (in another machine and in a USB enclosure) so I don't think it's > the connection. I am at a total loss. Does anyone have any advice in > this situation? Everything I know about data recovery I've learned > in the last (completely fruitless) 12 hours, so I may well be > missing an obvious trick. God, I hope so. > > -pete > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list - -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Promote trust - Use PGP! Comment: http://blog.iangreenleaf.com/2008/08/why-i-sign-with-pgp.html iD8DBQFI2Q1NDTFvtHdOkUcRAoPEAJ0cHkmqu4GwM4iDqwJJ0NnrMlHCYwCgixBx y+yfwnfRKRbQoC8BWkVSABY= =yQR8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From crumley at belka.space.umn.edu Mon Sep 22 13:50:29 2008 From: crumley at belka.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 13:50:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] PDF Bookmarks? In-Reply-To: <1469cda20809221127h6a40ca0br27a6cc846f271b5@mail.gmail.com> References: <1469cda20809221127h6a40ca0br27a6cc846f271b5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080922135029.A199@sam.space.umn.edu> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 01:27:55PM -0500, Thomas Johnson wrote: > I have a motorcycle shop manual in PDF format that I am constantly flipping > around in to find various pieces of information. It would be really nice if > I could bookmark frequently used pages for future reference (as you would do > with a web browser). Is there a PDF viewer/plugin/whatever that has this > functionality? Some googling turned up an ugly javascript hack ( > http://www.pdfhacks.com/bookmark_page/) for adobe reader that worked, but > not very well (inconvenient, no way to organize bookmarks, etc.). I was > hoping to find something that works a little better than this. I am not aware of any real functional support yet, but there is ongoing work to add what you want and more to Evince: http://www.kix.in/soc/07/evince-annotation-gnome.pdf http://annotations.diariolinux.com/ -- Jim Crumley |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List (TCLUG) Ruthless Debian Zealot |http://www.mn-linux.org/ Never laugh at live dragons | From jus at krytosvirus.com Tue Sep 23 11:09:55 2008 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 11:09:55 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] cataloging files on offline media In-Reply-To: <6E92ECCC-CA44-436A-9012-284D0F6D1FF8@secure-computing.net> References: <4bca4b7c0809221346s18cebd09w4d6111f01dde725e@mail.gmail.com> <6E92ECCC-CA44-436A-9012-284D0F6D1FF8@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: <04c201c91d96$d28f5b00$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> >> I have a large number of files that live on offline media (data DVD), >> and it's getting difficult to keep track of which dvd (out of 100+ >> disks currently) the file I want is on. >> >> Does anyone have any suggestions for creating a searchable database >> where I could enter a substring of a filename and have the database >> return full filenames and the correct disk. >> >> I know this situation has occurred before and been solved by others, >> but I can't find any descriptions on how such a system would be >> organized. >> >> Anyone have any pointers for me? >How about grep and a flat text file? > >Disk Filename > >You could gzip the text file, and gzcat filename | grep "foo" How about use (s)locate? You can just use a separate locate DB for each disk then write a trivial shell script to search all the locate DBs for the file(s) and optionally stop searching after the DB with the first hit. From teeahr1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 23 14:43:52 2008 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 14:43:52 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data recovery help - "no such file or directory when trying to open /dev/sdd1" In-Reply-To: <48D90D4D.4050803@gmail.com> References: <200809222151.02216.teeahr1@gmail.com> <7b7c42a30809230602m14c38da0lb1d47f531159fc39@mail.gmail.com> <48D90D4D.4050803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809231443.56508.teeahr1@gmail.com> On Tuesday September 23 2008 10:37:49 Ian Young wrote: > To add to the list of tools Andy mentioned: ddrescue is similar to dd, > but is really great about not choking, even if your disk is in terrible > shape. parted has its own rescue function that will try to find lost > partitions, without you needing to know exactly where they were. And > check out TestDisk and PhotoRec - they are brilliant tools, and can come > through when all hope seems lost. > > Of course, all of these tools can only help if the computer at least > recognizes that the drive is there, which is your problem. > > Try entering your BIOS setup and see if the drive shows up there. Also, > try getting your ear close to the drive when you power on the computer > and see if you can hear it spinning up. > > Also, keep trying. Try plugging it in again tomorrow. Try plugging it > in two weeks from now. I can't give any rational explanation for why > this would help, but I've seen drives that everyone has given up on > inexplicably come back from the dead and become recognized again out of > the blue. Of course, if this does happen, don't turn off your computer > and do copy all your data somewhere else ASAP. > > Good luck! > > Ian Thank you all for the kind replies and encouragement. I was pretty distraught when I sent that message last night; I had been banging my head against this for about 12 hours. So I left after I sent the email to the list, got out of the house for the night, just got back now. And would you believe it, sdd came home too. I checked in the BIOS and it did see a 200GB drive in the slot (yesterday it didn't). I fired it up, and there it was. dmesg doesn't have a thing to say about it, and I have no explanation other than voodoo magick. Which I wholeheartedly accept. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go buy a backup drive. -pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080923/9191facb/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080923/9191facb/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 23 15:21:13 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2008 15:21:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] cataloging files on offline media In-Reply-To: <6E92ECCC-CA44-436A-9012-284D0F6D1FF8@secure-computing.net> References: <4bca4b7c0809221346s18cebd09w4d6111f01dde725e@mail.gmail.com> <6E92ECCC-CA44-436A-9012-284D0F6D1FF8@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Eric F Crist wrote: > How about grep and a flat text file? > > Disk Filename > > You could gzip the text file, and gzcat filename | grep "foo" I think a good system would be to store the directory listing of every DVD in a separate file -- one file per DVD. You might name the DVDs by number 001, 002, etc., then give the files the same names as the DVDs. Store the files in some directory and use grep functions (egrep -l, probably) to find out which disk you need. To simplify this a little bit you can make scripts to index disks, see what disk number you are up to, do the searching without having to "cd", etc. If the filenames on the DVDs are always unique, and there are many DVDs with large numbers of files per DVD, you might want to do what was recommended above by inserting a disk name at the beginning of the line so that you can use egrep -m to reduce the amount of searching. But if the number of files per DVD is not in the tens of thousands, you'll probably find that the method I suggest, with egrep -l, is a little easier to work with. Mike From tclug at lizakowski.com Wed Sep 24 02:07:03 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 02:07:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Announcement: Wed, Sept 24, 6:30 - 8:00pm In-Reply-To: <9ebd65110809221846v59de810fs6a1814d7d578be6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <200711051205.21920.tclug@lizakowski.com> <200809181607.45420.tclug@lizakowski.com> <9ebd65110809221846v59de810fs6a1814d7d578be6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809240207.03416.tclug@lizakowski.com> > Would someone mind updating http://www.mn-linux.org Got it. Jeremy On Monday 22 September 2008 8:46:33 pm Adam Monsen wrote: > On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Jeremy wrote: > > The next TCLUG meeting is coming soon! > > I look forward to presenting! > > Would someone mind updating http://www.mn-linux.org ? The "latest > news" is from Monday, March 31, 2008. Also, is anyone on any U of M > mailing lists that would be appropriate forums for promoting the talk? From danyberg at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 05:53:13 2008 From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 05:53:13 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list Message-ID: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> > > > > Hi all. I am new to the area and currently staying with a friend on the > north > side of town in Blaine. I was active in Phx LUG for the past couple of > years > at Stammtischs or Installfests. I have been using Linux for the past 6 > years > and have mostly been with the Debian distro though I have probably tried > all > the major ones at least once. Lenny runs on both my lappie and server :) > Hope > to get a chance to meet some of you all and develop long term > relationships. > > As a side note I am looking for work in this area. In talking with the main > coordinator of the Phx Lug he said I would be good as a beginning linux > sys > admin. I just love Linux overall and enjoy working with installs, hardware > and such. I can do it all day for hours a day. Anyway.... > > Vi^3PirePengy > Welcome to MN! People say we're nice. Don't let it get to you. > > > On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, GK wrote: > > > Hi all. I am new to the area and currently staying with a friend on the > north > > side of town in Blaine. > > > Welcome to Minnesota! Just a quick note - please don't refer to your > laptop as a "lappie". > > Here in Minnesota, it's called a "Hot-dish". > > > > -Yaron > Man, you almost made beer come out of my nose. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/674189c3/attachment.htm From josh at tcbug.org Wed Sep 24 06:39:54 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 06:39:54 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> References: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >> Welcome to Minnesota! Just a quick note - please don't refer to your >> laptop as a "lappie". >> >> Here in Minnesota, it's called a "Hot-dish". >> >> >> >> -Yaron >> > > Man, you almost made beer come out of my nose. It's also worth mentioning that to function effectively at any social gathering in Minnesota you will need to know the difference between a hotdish and casserole. - -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFI2icKJvkB8SevrssRAq69AJsF0Q2+wCtTpyoek3yzSBJGRd3bXgCgjUDq ktAgywBV87/E3KkwETAqMQg= =7M2+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From hewhocutsdown at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 07:16:08 2008 From: hewhocutsdown at gmail.com (Jordan Peacock) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 07:16:08 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> References: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> Message-ID: I've made it over two years in Minnesota without encountering the dreaded 'hot-dish'. Careful evasion and the proper incantations work wonders. ====================== Jordan Peacock hewhocutsdown at gmail.com hewhocutsdown.blogspot.com On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 6:39 AM, Josh Paetzel wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > >> Welcome to Minnesota! Just a quick note - please don't refer to your > >> laptop as a "lappie". > >> > >> Here in Minnesota, it's called a "Hot-dish". > >> > >> > >> > >> -Yaron > >> > > > > Man, you almost made beer come out of my nose. > > It's also worth mentioning that to function effectively at any social > gathering in Minnesota you will need to know the difference between a > hotdish and casserole. > > - -- > Thanks, > > Josh Paetzel > > PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) > > iD8DBQFI2icKJvkB8SevrssRAq69AJsF0Q2+wCtTpyoek3yzSBJGRd3bXgCgjUDq > ktAgywBV87/E3KkwETAqMQg= > =7M2+ > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/1f80565c/attachment-0001.htm From chewie at wookimus.net Wed Sep 24 09:53:48 2008 From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:53:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> References: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <17681.1222268028@skuld.wookimus.net> Josh Paetzel wrote: > It's also worth mentioning that to function effectively at any social > gathering in Minnesota you will need to know the difference between a > hotdish and casserole. if length(food.components) > 1: if food.preparation == 'bake': food.type = 'hotdish' if state.name != 'Minnesota': food.type = 'casserole' :) Chad From jucziz6 at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 09:58:39 2008 From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 09:58:39 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: <17681.1222268028@skuld.wookimus.net> References: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> <17681.1222268028@skuld.wookimus.net> Message-ID: <81675d140809240758p68bb3389g9d26aaaa8bee69b7@mail.gmail.com> Casserole : Casseroles usually consist of one or two meats or vegetables as the main ingredients. Liquid in the form of stock, alcohol (in the form of wine ; for example *coq au vin * or *beef Bourguignon *), beer (for example *lapin ? la Gueuze *, gin, or cider ) or vegetable juices is added. The alcohol must be the influence of Wisconsin, wonder why there's no cheese? James On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 9:53 AM, Chad Walstrom wrote: > Josh Paetzel wrote: > > It's also worth mentioning that to function effectively at any social > > gathering in Minnesota you will need to know the difference between a > > hotdish and casserole. > > if length(food.components) > 1: > if food.preparation == 'bake': > food.type = 'hotdish' > if state.name != 'Minnesota': > food.type = 'casserole' > > :) > > Chad > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/bef8a365/attachment.htm From dave at sherohman.org Wed Sep 24 10:15:20 2008 From: dave at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:15:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: <81675d140809240758p68bb3389g9d26aaaa8bee69b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> <17681.1222268028@skuld.wookimus.net> <81675d140809240758p68bb3389g9d26aaaa8bee69b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080924151520.GL14160@sherohman.org> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 09:58:39AM -0500, James wrote: > The alcohol must be the influence of Wisconsin, wonder why there's no > cheese? Many casseroles have a handful or two of shredded cheese thrown over the top before baking, so it is there, even if not in a particularly prominent role. -- News aggregation meets world domination. Can you see the fnews? http://seethefnews.com/ From ecrist at secure-computing.net Wed Sep 24 10:32:18 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:32:18 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: <81675d140809240758p68bb3389g9d26aaaa8bee69b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> <48DA270A.4000001@tcbug.org> <17681.1222268028@skuld.wookimus.net> <81675d140809240758p68bb3389g9d26aaaa8bee69b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, James wrote: > The alcohol must be the influence of Wisconsin, wonder why there's > no cheese? I thought it was an Iowa influence. Don't the need to to make all those corn-fed gals attractive? --- Eric Crist From rulerofone at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 00:41:43 2008 From: rulerofone at gmail.com (Mr. Kraft) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 05:41:43 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Unsubscribe Message-ID: <48D5DE97.80904@gmail.com> How do I unsubscribe? -- ?????? From brockn at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 10:39:28 2008 From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:39:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <48D5DE97.80904@gmail.com> References: <48D5DE97.80904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <741dcbb80809240839y2fe65cb2xfbb4515e076b0da9@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 12:41 AM, Mr. Kraft wrote: > How do I unsubscribe? > > -- > ?? ??? ? > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > This ^^^^^^^^^^^ link. Brock -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/ae5e0eb7/attachment.htm From teeahr1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 10:51:16 2008 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:51:16 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction of my self to list In-Reply-To: References: <5daafeb10809240353j2ff0e738r715e318d5258ab@mail.gmail.com> <81675d140809240758p68bb3389g9d26aaaa8bee69b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809241051.19737.teeahr1@gmail.com> On Wednesday September 24 2008 10:32:18 Eric F Crist wrote: > On Sep 24, 2008, at 9:58 AM, James wrote: > > The alcohol must be the influence of Wisconsin, wonder why there's > > no cheese? > > I thought it was an Iowa influence. Don't the need to to make all > those corn-fed gals attractive? > > --- > Eric Crist Mmm. Corn. You thought I was gonna say something crass there, didn't you? Shame on you. -pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/9376470c/attachment.htm From hansone at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 11:04:47 2008 From: hansone at gmail.com (Erik Hanson) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:04:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Sys Admin / PHP Developer Position Open Message-ID: <80c691190809240904r3fc67241p1e78cc048b936a1e@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, My company has a job opening that I might be of interest to some of you. Please reply to the email in the post and not to me. Thanks! -Erik Here is the information: ------------------------------------------------ FISDAP is looking for a Linux system administrator with experience in PHP Web application development. This person would be responsible for working with our system administration team to maintain and grow our current server infrastructure and work with the application development team to develop PHP web applications. Job responsibilities include: Maintaining existing server infrastructure (software updates, etc) Working to scale our current server infrastructure Design and implementation of new software applications and features Required Skills: Maintaining LAMP servers MySQL development and administration Developing Web applications in PHP, HTML, JavaScript and CSS Candidates with the following experience will rise to the top: MySQL replication High availability servers LAMP server performance tuning Web UI design Understanding of object oriented design and programming FISDAP provides collaborative, innovative, quality electronic solutions to healthcare educators and students. We offer responsive and personal service to our customers and provide continuous quality improvement. We are committed to making a difference in our customers' lives. Our offices are located in St. Paul, Minnesota. We offer our employees paid vacation and holidays, a retirement savings account, medical and dental insurance, and a fun, casual working environment. To apply, please send a cover letter and resume to jobs at fisdap.net. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/3155db92/attachment-0001.htm From tclug at lizakowski.com Wed Sep 24 11:38:23 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 11:38:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Unsubscribe In-Reply-To: <48D5DE97.80904@gmail.com> References: <48D5DE97.80904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809241138.23178.tclug@lizakowski.com> >> Casseroles usually consist of one or two meats or vegetables >> as the main ingredients. > How do I unsubscribe? No correlation I hope? From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com Wed Sep 24 12:10:23 2008 From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Are the jokes over? Message-ID: <620600.92106.qm@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> It looks like we have a lot of misunderstanding out there. A hot dish is prepared and/or served in a casserole. And now you know the rest of the story. From teeahr1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 13:07:01 2008 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:07:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Are the jokes over? In-Reply-To: <620600.92106.qm@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <620600.92106.qm@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200809241307.05106.teeahr1@gmail.com> On Wednesday September 24 2008 12:10:23 Robert Wilkinson wrote: > It looks like we have a lot of misunderstanding out there. > > A hot dish is prepared and/or served in a casserole. > > And now you know the rest of the story. Wait a minute, I thought it was the other way around. Okay, really I'm done now :) -pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/54b1827b/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/54b1827b/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Wed Sep 24 13:43:03 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:43:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Are the jokes over? In-Reply-To: <200809241307.05106.teeahr1@gmail.com> References: <620600.92106.qm@web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <200809241307.05106.teeahr1@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, p.daniels wrote: > On Wednesday September 24 2008 12:10:23 Robert Wilkinson wrote: > >> It looks like we have a lot of misunderstanding out there. >> >> A hot dish is prepared and/or served in a casserole. >> >> And now you know the rest of the story. > > Wait a minute, I thought it was the other way around. I had to look it up... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotdish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casserole Mike From haircut at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 23:23:18 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:23:18 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Announcement: Wed, Sept 24, 6:30 - 8:00pm In-Reply-To: <200809240207.03416.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <200711051205.21920.tclug@lizakowski.com> <200809181607.45420.tclug@lizakowski.com> <9ebd65110809221846v59de810fs6a1814d7d578be6f@mail.gmail.com> <200809240207.03416.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <9ebd65110809242123i4d83414ajad16ad64414917bd@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Jeremy wrote: > Got it. Thanks. And thanks to everyone who showed up tonight! I had a great time. For slides, materials and source for the presentation, see: http://adammonsen.com/talks -- Adam Monsen From rmetcalf at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 16:59:25 2008 From: rmetcalf at gmail.com (Robert Metcalf) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 16:59:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for cloud computing sys admin Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080924165721.03c97a90@mail.theinternet.com> Hi there, Robert Metcalf here, founder of Flyspy.com. We are building a version of Flyspy that runs completely on AWS (Amazon Web Services). I am looking for someone that can set up, configure, and deploy our new environment. We're in the very beginning stages so we have the opportunity to do it right. Here is what I see as the major components: 1) A server with software-based VPN 2) Load balancing - HAProxy 3) Web servers - static content 4) Application servers - some Rails environment 5) MySQL servers - a variety based on functionality Our first priority is deploying a server with software-based VPN. The next priority is a development environment. Then we'll build out an operational platform that is self-configuring. If this is the type of relationship you'd like to pursue I'd like to speak further with you. Regards, Robert Metcalf rm at flyspy.com 612-386-0440 From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Thu Sep 25 15:13:24 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] RDBMS book? Message-ID: What are the great intro texts on database systems? Maybe these are good, but I don't know nothin': "Database System Concepts", Silberschatz et al. http://db-book.com/ "Database Management Systems", Ramakrishnan and Gehrke http://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~dbbook/ I like the slides from the first web page (db-book.com). Mike From johntrammell at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 15:23:34 2008 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 15:23:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] RDBMS book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0809251323w233934e7u580af8b96f5254ae@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > What are the great intro texts on database systems? I'm quite an anti-fan of Ramakrishnan. In my edition (3e?), there were tons of errors, and no errata available. This made the book almost useless. JT From florin at iucha.net Thu Sep 25 16:31:11 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 16:31:11 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] RDBMS book? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080925213111.GZ3263@iris.iucha.org> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 03:13:24PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > What are the great intro texts on database systems? "An Introduction to Database Systems" by CJ Date. florin PS: I would stay away from many 'textbooks' as they jam everything under the sun in order to increase the page count. Ramakrishnan is definitely is one of the worst I've seen. -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/c62cda5a/attachment.pgp From andyzib at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 17:32:50 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:32:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 Message-ID: I'm currently dealing with a number of Linux Web Kiosks who's sole function is data input into our company's ERP system. They simply run Mozilla full screen. These stations have served us well for nearly 5 years now, but new processes are starting to appear in the plant. One is barcode tracking of inventory as it moves through the plant. Of course, cost comes into play so IT is challenged with figuring out how to go about getting a barcode reader working with the existing kiosks for the new tracking stuff. As our barcode tracking is already done via a web application, and scanning the barcode just has to bring up information about the barcode being scanned. My thought is a simple perl/php/whatever script that monitors the serial port could be started when the kiosk's X11 session starts. When the trigger on the RS232 device is pulled, the monitor would take the barcode ASCII, do any processing/modification that was needed (shouldn't be any I think..?), and open a new browser window using mozilla-xremote-client: mozilla-xremote-client -a any openURL(http://server/app/kiosk.aspx?barcode=, new-window) or mozilla-xremote-client -a any openURL(http://server/app/kiosk.aspx?barcode=, new-tab) It would be trivial to get all kiosks running the application when the X11 starts, and the user just needs read access to the serial prot in order to launch the monitor app. The question I have is, before I go to all the trouble of creating a monitor of some sorts, is there a program or other pre-existing script that can do this? I haven't had any luck with searching so far, but it seems like something that should already exisit. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/73d92b4c/attachment.htm From ecrist at secure-computing.net Thu Sep 25 17:43:51 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:43:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3EEC7A3B-A543-4B38-9626-F1F6E970B838@secure-computing.net> FWIW, may barcode scanners are simply glorified keyboards. Many of them auto-decipher the barcode they read, as they read it, which gives standard text input. These models often simply plug in via USB or through a PS/2 'wedge.' HTH Eric On Sep 25, 2008, at 5:32 PM, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > I'm currently dealing with a number of Linux Web Kiosks who's sole > function is data input into our company's ERP system. They simply > run Mozilla full screen. These stations have served us well for > nearly 5 years now, but new processes are starting to appear in the > plant. One is barcode tracking of inventory as it moves through the > plant. Of course, cost comes into play so IT is challenged with > figuring out how to go about getting a barcode reader working with > the existing kiosks for the new tracking stuff. > > As our barcode tracking is already done via a web application, and > scanning the barcode just has to bring up information about the > barcode being scanned. > > My thought is a simple perl/php/whatever script that monitors the > serial port could be started when the kiosk's X11 session starts. > When the trigger on the RS232 device is pulled, the monitor would > take the barcode ASCII, do any processing/modification that was > needed (shouldn't be any I think..?), and open a new browser window > using mozilla-xremote-client: > > mozilla-xremote-client -a any openURL(http://server/app/kiosk.aspx?barcode= > , new-window) > or > mozilla-xremote-client -a any openURL(http://server/app/kiosk.aspx?barcode= > , new-tab) > > It would be trivial to get all kiosks running the application when > the X11 starts, and the user just needs read access to the serial > prot in order to launch the monitor app. > > The question I have is, before I go to all the trouble of creating a > monitor of some sorts, is there a program or other pre-existing > script that can do this? I haven't had any luck with searching so > far, but it seems like something that should already exisit. > > -- > Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us > IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list --- Eric Crist From florin at iucha.net Thu Sep 25 17:51:47 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 17:51:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080925225146.GC3263@iris.iucha.org> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 05:32:50PM -0500, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > I'm currently dealing with a number of Linux Web Kiosks who's sole function > is data input into our company's ERP system. They simply run Mozilla full > screen. These stations have served us well for nearly 5 years now, but new > processes are starting to appear in the plant. One is barcode tracking of > inventory as it moves through the plant. Of course, cost comes into play so > IT is challenged with figuring out how to go about getting a barcode reader > working with the existing kiosks for the new tracking stuff. Any reason not to use an USB barcode scanner? They are support the HID profiles, in fact they look like keyboards. The operator needs to select the right field on the form, highlight the barcode and press the triger - the code 'magically' appears in the input field. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/bd54fecb/attachment.pgp From andyzib at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 18:31:25 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 18:31:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 In-Reply-To: <20080925225146.GC3263@iris.iucha.org> References: <20080925225146.GC3263@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: > > Any reason not to use an USB barcode scanner? They are support the > HID profiles, in fact they look like keyboards. The operator needs to > select the right field on the form, highlight the barcode and press > the triger - the code 'magically' appears in the input field. > You stated the reason not to do so: the operator needs to select the right field. The ideal situation would be a scanner that had a wireless connection to the computer (RF, bluetooth, whatever) back to the computer, not a wired device. The barcodes being scanned won't be right next to the computer. My understanding is that USB barcode scanners can work in Wedge mode or RS232 mode. The alternative is a barcode scanner in wedge mode that can send a command sequence (Ctrl+Shift+F12+wave rubber chicken) that the window manger (sawfish currently) can be configured to grab, run a command, and pass the input string along. Monitoring RS232 and taking action that way seemed like it would reliable than intercepting key strokes or hoping that the user put the curson in the correct field. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/7599e5a1/attachment.htm From ryan.langseth at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 19:22:21 2008 From: ryan.langseth at gmail.com (Ryan Langseth) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:22:21 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 In-Reply-To: References: <20080925225146.GC3263@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 6:31 PM, Andrew Zbikowski wrote: >> Any reason not to use an USB barcode scanner? They are support the >> HID profiles, in fact they look like keyboards. The operator needs to >> select the right field on the form, highlight the barcode and press >> the triger - the code 'magically' appears in the input field. > > You stated the reason not to do so: the operator needs to select the right > field. The ideal situation would be a scanner that had a wireless connection > to the computer (RF, bluetooth, whatever) back to the computer, not a wired > device. The barcodes being scanned won't be right next to the computer. > I little bit of javascript could take care of that, have it focus on that field onload() and on input have it submit the page or whatever. If they are going to be away from the monitor anyways that would work. Ryan From andyzib at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 19:39:31 2008 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew Zbikowski) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:39:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 In-Reply-To: References: <20080925225146.GC3263@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: > > I little bit of javascript could take care of that, have it focus on > that field onload() and on input have it submit the page or whatever. > If they are going to be away from the monitor anyways that would work. > Definitely an option for dealing with a keyboard wedge scanner, but I'd still like to know if there is something out there for the original question of a program monitoring a RS232 port and running an other program. :) -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/9a39db02/attachment.htm From bunjee at charter.net Thu Sep 25 19:57:19 2008 From: bunjee at charter.net (Danny) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 19:57:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Desktop effects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001701c91f72$d3bbc1c0$7b334540$@net> I have Ubuntu 8.04 and can't figure out how to get the desktop effects to work. When I put the bullet in "custom" I get a message that reads "can't enable desktop effects. I've got a Radeon 4850 Visiontek video card. Please help. Danny J. -----Original Message----- From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 12:00 PM To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 35 Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to tclug-list at mn-linux.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org You can reach the person managing the list at tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Are the jokes over? (Robert Wilkinson) 2. Re: Are the jokes over? (p.daniels) 3. Re: Are the jokes over? (Mike Miller) 4. Re: TCLUG Meeting Announcement: Wed, Sept 24, 6:30 - 8:00pm (Adam Monsen) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 10:10:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Robert Wilkinson Subject: [tclug-list] Are the jokes over? To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Message-ID: <620600.92106.qm at web32804.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii It looks like we have a lot of misunderstanding out there. A hot dish is prepared and/or served in a casserole. And now you know the rest of the story. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:07:01 -0500 From: "p.daniels" Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Are the jokes over? To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Message-ID: <200809241307.05106.teeahr1 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" On Wednesday September 24 2008 12:10:23 Robert Wilkinson wrote: > It looks like we have a lot of misunderstanding out there. > > A hot dish is prepared and/or served in a casserole. > > And now you know the rest of the story. Wait a minute, I thought it was the other way around. Okay, really I'm done now :) -pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/54b182 7b/attachment.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080924/54b182 7b/attachment-0001.pgp ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 13:43:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Mike Miller Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Are the jokes over? To: "p.daniels" Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Wed, 24 Sep 2008, p.daniels wrote: > On Wednesday September 24 2008 12:10:23 Robert Wilkinson wrote: > >> It looks like we have a lot of misunderstanding out there. >> >> A hot dish is prepared and/or served in a casserole. >> >> And now you know the rest of the story. > > Wait a minute, I thought it was the other way around. I had to look it up... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotdish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casserole Mike ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2008 23:23:18 -0500 From: "Adam Monsen" Subject: Re: [tclug-list] TCLUG Meeting Announcement: Wed, Sept 24, 6:30 - 8:00pm To: "Twin Cities Linux Users" Message-ID: <9ebd65110809242123i4d83414ajad16ad64414917bd at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 2:07 AM, Jeremy wrote: > Got it. Thanks. And thanks to everyone who showed up tonight! I had a great time. For slides, materials and source for the presentation, see: http://adammonsen.com/talks -- Adam Monsen ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 45, Issue 35 ****************************************** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.7.3/1691 - Release Date: 9/25/2008 7:23 PM From jima at beer.tclug.org Thu Sep 25 20:25:32 2008 From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:25:32 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 In-Reply-To: References: <20080925225146.GC3263@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: <48DC3A0C.1070502@beer.tclug.org> Andrew Zbikowski wrote: > Ryan Langseth wrote: > > I little bit of javascript could take care of that, have it focus on > > that field onload() and on input have it submit the page or whatever. > > If they are going to be away from the monitor anyways that would work. > > Definitely an option for dealing with a keyboard wedge scanner, but I'd > still like to know if there is something out there for the original > question of a program monitoring a RS232 port and running an other > program. :) I'd take a look at perl's Device::SerialPort module. Take something like http://www.aplawrence.com/Unix/logger.html and change the while($_ = ) loop to run the program, maybe. That's what I'd be investigating, at least. :-) Jima From florin at iucha.net Thu Sep 25 20:36:47 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:36:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Desktop effects In-Reply-To: <001701c91f72$d3bbc1c0$7b334540$@net> References: <001701c91f72$d3bbc1c0$7b334540$@net> Message-ID: <20080926013647.GD3263@iris.iucha.org> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 07:57:19PM -0500, Danny wrote: > I have Ubuntu 8.04 and can't figure out how to get the desktop effects to > work. > When I put the bullet in "custom" I get a message that reads "can't enable > desktop effects. > I've got a Radeon 4850 Visiontek video card. You need the proprietary fglrx driver. Your card is not yet supported with the free radeon driver. This page should give detailed instructions: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto/ATI Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/aa03713a/attachment.pgp From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com Thu Sep 25 20:43:25 2008 From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (Kelly Black) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 20:43:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Monitoring RS232 References: <20080925225146.GC3263@iris.iucha.org> <48DC3A0C.1070502@beer.tclug.org> Message-ID: <20080926014325.GA8215@mail.hsd1.mn.comcast.net> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 08:25:32PM -0500, Jima wrote: > I'd take a look at perl's Device::SerialPort module. Take something > like http://www.aplawrence.com/Unix/logger.html and change the while($_ > = ) loop to run the program, maybe. > That's what I'd be investigating, at least. :-) I think Jima is on the right track. You could use the Perl serial module or something like it in Python (like http://sourceforge.net/projects/pyserial/ ) along with a simple to program web framework like this: cherrrypy.org I would imagine Ruby on Rails or other frameworks could get you to the same point and allow you to drive what comes in the serial port and minimally change what is running on the front end (browser in full screen mode). You could just point the browser at the Cherrypy web server / web framework that is constantly reading the serial port and snatching what the barcode scanner is reading. With that setup you should be able to handle future wild and crazy requests :-) Kelly Black KB0GBJ From john.meier at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 21:58:20 2008 From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 21:58:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data forensics (sort of OT) Message-ID: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> Hi group! any recommendations on software/hardware to extract data from a drive that is working but may have some fed up partition table present? Something that will work with all OSes (mac, window and linux)? thanks john -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/d78d6753/attachment.htm From ian.greenleaf at gmail.com Thu Sep 25 22:12:59 2008 From: ian.greenleaf at gmail.com (Ian Young) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2008 22:12:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data forensics (sort of OT) In-Reply-To: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48DC533B.30701@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080925/bb68fbd3/attachment.htm From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com Fri Sep 26 00:02:26 2008 From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 00:02:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] * Tomorrow * Vim, Advanced Usage and Useful Plugins - Topic @PenguinsUnbound Linux Meeting Sept. 27th Message-ID: <48DC6CE2.4070207@Goecke-Dolan.com> This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be Saturday September 27th at TIES, 1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108 from 10:00 to 12:00. We will meet in the Larpenteur Room won the second floor above the parking garage. (See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more info.) Vim, Love it! Hate it! Either way it is always useful to know more about it! Adam Monsen has volunteered to come and talk about "Vim, advanced usage, and useful plugins" Thank, hope to see you there. ==>brian. From jus at krytosvirus.com Fri Sep 26 04:20:35 2008 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 04:20:35 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data forensics (sort of OT) In-Reply-To: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Kroll Ontrack is a professional data recovery company. They have a couple of free (windows) software downloads available here http://www.ontrackdatarecovery.com/data-recovery-downloads/ They are local so if you really need the data and nothing is working you can contact them about more drastic possibilities as explained here http://www.ontrackdatarecovery.com/data-recovery-service-options/ We have used their services before but the larger the RAID volume (by RAID level and number of drives) the higher the cost for a max recovery. On 9/26/2008, "John Meier" wrote: >Hi group! > >any recommendations on software/hardware to extract data from a drive that >is working but may have some fed up partition table present? > >Something that will work with all OSes (mac, window and linux)? > >thanks > >john From florin at iucha.net Fri Sep 26 07:50:48 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 07:50:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data forensics (sort of OT) In-Reply-To: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> References: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080926125048.GF3263@iris.iucha.org> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 09:58:20PM -0500, John Meier wrote: > any recommendations on software/hardware to extract data from a drive that > is working but may have some fed up partition table present? > > Something that will work with all OSes (mac, window and linux)? The first recommendation is to get a bigger drive and stick it into the same machine, then boot from a USB disk running Linux and make a copy of the "bad" disk onto the larger disk, then run whatever tools on the copy. Here is a Linux that specializes in recovery tools and can be run from USB drive: http://www.tux.org/pub/people/kent-robotti/looplinux/rip/ Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080926/db2d17ae/attachment.pgp From johntrammell at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 09:18:33 2008 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 09:18:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] * Tomorrow * Vim, Advanced Usage and Useful Plugins - Topic @PenguinsUnbound Linux Meeting Sept. 27th In-Reply-To: <48DC6CE2.4070207@Goecke-Dolan.com> References: <48DC6CE2.4070207@Goecke-Dolan.com> Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0809260718v540ce3fu8c1881af9359b6b9@mail.gmail.com> Thread hijack: Also, Neal Stephenson (author of Cryptonomicon) is going to be signing books tonight at the Southdale Barnes & Noble. I probably won't attend, because I'd rather watch the presidential debate (assuming it happens). JT On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 12:02 AM, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote: > This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be > Saturday September 27th at TIES, > 1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108 > from 10:00 to 12:00. > We will meet in the Larpenteur Room won the second floor above the > parking garage. > (See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more > info.) > > Vim, > > Love it! > > Hate it! > > Either way it is always useful to know more about it! > > Adam Monsen has volunteered to come and talk about > "Vim, advanced usage, and useful plugins" > > Thank, hope to see you there. > > ==>brian. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From tclug at beitsahour.net Fri Sep 26 10:02:36 2008 From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 10:02:36 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data forensics (sort of OT) In-Reply-To: <48DC533B.30701@gmail.com> References: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> <48DC533B.30701@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Ian Young wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk > > Fixing partition tables is what this tool was made for. Seconding this recommendation, but going a step further; if you only need to recover data i would use http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec. i recently had to use it to recover 70Gb of pictures from a failed laptop hard drive. a drive that had a headcrash and i could not even dd or dd_rescue. ( it recovers all files it is able to reconstruct, not just images anymore) From john.meier at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 11:43:49 2008 From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 11:43:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data forensics (sort of OT) In-Reply-To: References: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> <48DC533B.30701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <65293fcc0809260943y3c63dbcck9220566646ee9956@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 10:02 AM, Munir Nassar wrote: > On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Ian Young > wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA1 > > > > http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk > > > > Fixing partition tables is what this tool was made for. > > Seconding this recommendation, but going a step further; if you only > need to recover data i would use > http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/PhotoRec. i TestDisk did the trick - what a great tool! It rebuilt the GPT partition and I was able to access the 240Gb data that was on the drive. Thanks everyone for your replies. john -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080926/7807b0d4/attachment.htm From brian at ropers-huilman.net Fri Sep 26 13:36:33 2008 From: brian at ropers-huilman.net (Brian D. Ropers-Huilman) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 13:36:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://www.msse.umn.edu/events/Richard-Stallman-Free-Software-Movement-and-GNULin Richard Stallman: The Free Software Movement and the GNU/Linux Operating System Date of Event: Tue, 10/21/2008 18:30 Location: Willey Hall 175, West Bank campus Richard Stallman will speak about the Free Software Movement, which campaigns for freedom so that computer users can cooperate to control their own computing activities. The Free Software Movement developed the GNU operating system, often erroneously referred to as Linux, specifically to establish these freedoms. -- Brian D. Ropers-Huilman, Director Systems Administration and Technical Operations Minnesota Supercomputing Institute 599 Walter Library +1 612-626-5948 (V) 117 Pleasant Street S.E. +1 612-624-8861 (F) University of Minnesota Twin Cities Campus Minneapolis, MN 55455-0255 http://www.msi.umn.edu/ From sloncho at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 14:16:10 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:16:10 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Brian D. Ropers-Huilman wrote: > own computing activities. The Free Software Movement developed the GNU > operating system, often erroneously referred to as Linux, specifically > to establish these freedoms. > This list definitely needs a grammar nazy :) FSF and RS have never developed an operating system. But they was in the core and build almost all essential tools to make it happen - gcc, emacs, etc. Thats why (as RS himself states) the OS is GNU/Linux. Linux is only the kernel. Anyway, meet you there, thanks for the information. Cheers -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From sloncho at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 14:20:51 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:20:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Brian D. Ropers-Huilman wrote: > Richard Stallman: The Free Software Movement and the GNU/Linux Operating System > Date of Event: Tue, 10/21/2008 18:30 > Location: Willey Hall 175, West Bank campus Please, provide directions. Thanks -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From verigoth at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 14:29:59 2008 From: verigoth at gmail.com (Rob Bayerl) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:29:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Sunny wrote: > This list definitely needs a grammar nazy :) Or a spelling Nazi. From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Fri Sep 26 14:35:57 2008 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:35:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1222457757.26197.1276181939@webmail.messagingengine.com> Both the description on the msse.umn.edu webiste and the response below are misleading. Not only did the GNU developers write many of the development tools used to create GNU/Linux as is correctly implied below but they did in fact contribute much code to the operating system. Additionally the GNU project has written an OS but it needs further development and its use is very limited. On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:16:10 -0500, "Sunny" said: > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Brian D. Ropers-Huilman > wrote: > > own computing activities. The Free Software Movement developed the GNU > > operating system, often erroneously referred to as Linux, specifically > > to establish these freedoms. > > > > This list definitely needs a grammar nazy :) > > FSF and RS have never developed an operating system. But they was in > the core and build almost all essential tools to make it happen - gcc, > emacs, etc. > > Thats why (as RS himself states) the OS is GNU/Linux. Linux is only the > kernel. > > Anyway, meet you there, thanks for the information. > > Cheers > > -- > Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) > > Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just > a pile of scrap. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From brian at ropers-huilman.net Fri Sep 26 14:37:28 2008 From: brian at ropers-huilman.net (Brian D. Ropers-Huilman) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:37:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 14:29, Rob Bayerl wrote: > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Sunny wrote: >> This list definitely needs a grammar nazy :) > > Or a spelling Nazi. FWIW, I simply copied-and-pasted from the MSSE web site, but I should have edited. My fault. -- Brian D. Ropers-Huilman, Director Systems Administration and Technical Operations Minnesota Supercomputing Institute 599 Walter Library +1 612-626-5948 (V) 117 Pleasant Street S.E. +1 612-624-8861 (F) University of Minnesota Twin Cities Campus Minneapolis, MN 55455-0255 http://www.msi.umn.edu/ From brian at ropers-huilman.net Fri Sep 26 14:42:47 2008 From: brian at ropers-huilman.net (Brian D. Ropers-Huilman) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:42:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 14:20, Sunny wrote: > On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Brian D. Ropers-Huilman wrote: >> Richard Stallman: The Free Software Movement and the GNU/Linux Operating System >> Date of Event: Tue, 10/21/2008 18:30 >> Location: Willey Hall 175, West Bank campus > > Please, provide directions. Here's the official U of M map: http://www1.umn.edu/twincities/maps/WilleyH/index.html But here's the definitive source: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=44.973018,-93.243638+(Wiley+Hall)&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=16&iwloc=addr -- Brian D. Ropers-Huilman, Director Systems Administration and Technical Operations Minnesota Supercomputing Institute 599 Walter Library +1 612-626-5948 (V) 117 Pleasant Street S.E. +1 612-624-8861 (F) University of Minnesota Twin Cities Campus Minneapolis, MN 55455-0255 http://www.msi.umn.edu/ From florin at iucha.net Fri Sep 26 14:47:46 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:47:46 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080926194746.GG3139@iris.iucha.org> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 02:20:51PM -0500, Sunny wrote: > > Richard Stallman: The Free Software Movement and the GNU/Linux Operating System > > Date of Event: Tue, 10/21/2008 18:30 > > Location: Willey Hall 175, West Bank campus > > Please, provide directions. > > > -- > Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) > > Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just > a pile of scrap. * Turn on your pile of scrap * Log in * Start a web browser * Click in the address field * Type "www.google.com" and press * Type "Willey Hall, West Bank, Minneapolis" * Click on the first link * Copy the street address to the clipboard * Click in the address field again * Type "maps.google.com" and press * Paste the street address in the input field and press "Search Maps" Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080926/05d1f8dc/attachment.pgp From ian.greenleaf at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 15:26:25 2008 From: ian.greenleaf at gmail.com (Ian Young) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:26:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <20080926194746.GG3139@iris.iucha.org> References: <20080926194746.GG3139@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: <48DD4571.3050401@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Florin Iucha wrote: > > * Turn on your pile of scrap > * Log in > * Start a web browser > * Click in the address field > * Type "www.google.com" and press > * Type "Willey Hall, West Bank, Minneapolis" > * Click on the first link > * Copy the street address to the clipboard > * Click in the address field again > * Type "maps.google.com" and press > * Paste the street address in the input field and press "Search Maps" * Discern from the gray void on the map which building it is and what door to use. * Use Google's new "gPark Beta" feature to find available parking nearby. * What, you don't have that? Well, it's viral marketing, you know. You have to be invited. I really don't think asking for directions is all that flame-worthy. Here: . Ian - -- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Promote trust - Use PGP! Comment: http://blog.iangreenleaf.com/2008/08/why-i-sign-with-pgp.html iD8DBQFI3UVxDTFvtHdOkUcRAq9hAJ46KRCa98RQthsXIrQLFxfc7RNRpwCfWJbW xvaRwo1AAdjN2SB/meZw/2M= =eUbn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Sep 26 15:35:37 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:35:37 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <20080926194746.GG3139@iris.iucha.org> References: <20080926194746.GG3139@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 02:20:51PM -0500, Sunny wrote: > Please, provide directions. On Fri, 26 Sep 2008, Florin Iucha wrote: > * Turn on your pile of scrap > * Log in > * Start a web browser > * Click in the address field > * Type "www.google.com" and press > * Type "Willey Hall, West Bank, Minneapolis" > * Click on the first link > * Copy the street address to the clipboard > * Click in the address field again > * Type "maps.google.com" and press > * Paste the street address in the input field and press "Search Maps" It is pretty obvious which of you has coded the simpler algorithm! ;-) Mike From sloncho at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 15:43:29 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:43:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48DD4571.3050401@gmail.com> References: <20080926194746.GG3139@iris.iucha.org> <48DD4571.3050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 3:26 PM, Ian Young wrote: > > I really don't think asking for directions is all that flame-worthy. > > Here: . > Thanks Ian. I really deserved it :) Usually I'm the one who sends people to read "How to ask smart questions", and did not follow, and have been lazy :) -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Sep 26 15:46:42 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 15:46:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Sep 2008, Brian D. Ropers-Huilman wrote: > http://www.msse.umn.edu/events/Richard-Stallman-Free-Software-Movement-and-GNULin > > Richard Stallman: The Free Software Movement and the GNU/Linux Operating System > Date of Event: Tue, 10/21/2008 18:30 > Location: Willey Hall 175, West Bank campus This is great news. He is one of my heroes. I hear a lot of negative talk about him -- he's "a smelly hippy" or he exaggerates the importance of GNU as opposed to Linux, or we shouldn't use the term "GNU/Linux". I find very little merit in any of those claims and there is usually a lot of anger behind them. I'm not sure why. One thing is for certain: Richard Stallman has been a relentless advocate for an idea that is changing the world in a very positive way. Free software licensing (Stallman's contribution) combined with the internet for distribution and the widespread availability of GNU/Linux OS on PCs is making amazing things happen, even in developing countries. Stallman wrote a lot of code, but many thousands of others have contributed. Stallman's genius was to be the source for all that followed -- the Itasca of the Free Software / Open Source movement, and he will always have my admiration. Mike From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Fri Sep 26 16:57:52 2008 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:57:52 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] cataloging files on offline media In-Reply-To: References: <4bca4b7c0809221346s18cebd09w4d6111f01dde725e@mail.gmail.com> <6E92ECCC-CA44-436A-9012-284D0F6D1FF8@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: <82f04dc40809261457y4570d0d7h6bada46cc8d14749@mail.gmail.com> Not that there aren't already 5000 ways to do this, but at one point, I wrote a tool to make a text file out of directory lists with lots of gui-checkable options. http://armbrust.dyndns.org/programs/directoryLister.html I wrote it for exactly this purpose, when I was using systems that didn't have all the stuff on the command line. If you have java installed, you can webstart it right from the above page. Or, if you don't trust me, the source code is linked there too :) From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us Fri Sep 26 16:03:14 2008 From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 16:03:14 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DD07C5.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> >>> On 9/26/2008 at 3:46 PM, in message , Mike Miller wrote: > This is great news. He is one of my heroes. Mine too. > I hear a lot of negative talk about him -- he's "a smelly hippy" or he Yeah, I hear there is some truth to that, but I never made the mistake of thinking he was known for smelling really good. ;-) > exaggerates the importance of GNU as opposed to Linux, or we shouldn't use > the term "GNU/Linux". I do think he does exalt himself with the "GNU/Linux" thing, and I don't use it. I don't use "GNU/Solaris" or "GNU/BSD" either, though I have used GNU software on both Solaris and *BSD. "GNU/Linux" strikes me as a point of pride thing, and takes away more from RMS than it adds. My opinion, not so angry. *shrug* > Stallman's genius was to be the source for all that followed -- the Itasca > of the Free Software / Open Source movement, and he will always have my > admiration. I do admire him very much, but it is a qualified/specific admiration. :-) Troy From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Sep 26 18:26:30 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:26:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48DD07C5.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> References: <48DD07C5.9048.009E.0@health.state.mn.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Sep 2008, Troy.A Johnson wrote: >>>> On 9/26/2008 at 3:46 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > >> I hear a lot of negative talk about him -- he's "a smelly hippy" or he > > Yeah, I hear there is some truth to that, but I never made the mistake > of thinking he was known for smelling really good. ;-) Right. I hope to smell him when he visits so that I can either confirm or refute all such rumors! >> exaggerates the importance of GNU as opposed to Linux, or we shouldn't >> use the term "GNU/Linux". > > I do think he does exalt himself with the "GNU/Linux" thing, and I don't > use it. I don't use "GNU/Solaris" or "GNU/BSD" either, though I have > used GNU software on both Solaris and *BSD. "GNU/Linux" strikes me as a > point of pride thing, and takes away more from RMS than it adds. My > opinion, not so angry. *shrug* He just does it in order to promote the GNU system. I wonder how he feels though. To me he seems pretty magnanimous about it all. He was working for a decade or so on development of an OS. He had a the compiler and a bunch of utilities and tools ready to go. Almost everything was done except for the kernel. They were starting to work on the kernel when someone else came along, using the GNU C compiler to compile a kernel that could run with the GNU utils. Stallman appreciated the contribution, but there seems to be an idea that the kernel is the really important thing and you could just get the rest wherever you wanted (like you'd just find it on the side of the road or something). In fact, there is really no chance, in my book, that Torvalds would have wasted his time on the kernel if he'd had nowhere to put it. He also used the GNU C compiler to compile it. It was made to work within the GNU system. It would be like this: You worked for 10 years on a car called "the GNU" but hadn't finished the carburetor. A friend came to you with a pretty cool carburetor, not as cool as what you were planning, but not bad, and he called his carburetor "Linux". You put it in the car and managed to make it work. Your friend says the car should be called "Linux." You had hoped to call the car "GNU," but you are a magnanimous guy and he is your friend so you say that you'll go with "GNU/Linux." Then you have to suffer through years of taunting about what an ass you are for having to put your "GNU" in front of his "Linux." Almost everyone seems to think the car should be called "Linux!" But why? An operating system is more than a kernel. The kernel is called Linux and when the rest of it is GNU, I think it is best to call it a GNU/Linux system. It is possible to replace all GNU components with non-GNU components, and when that is done, the resulting system should obviously *not* be called GNU/Linux. Mike From max at bernsteinforpresident.com Fri Sep 26 18:19:31 2008 From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:19:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809261819.31734.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> > FSF and RS have never developed an operating system. But they was in > the core and build almost all essential tools to make it happen - gcc, > emacs, etc. GNU/Hurd... From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Fri Sep 26 18:45:10 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:45:10 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL Message-ID: We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an RDBMS. It's in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I would prefer to use MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what cost? Before I even consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to know what Oracle can do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Have any of you studied this or do you know of any reasonably serious comparative research or reviews? Thanks. Mike From ecrist at secure-computing.net Fri Sep 26 19:10:23 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:10:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: R.E.P.L.I.C.A.T.I.O.N. On Sep 26, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an RDBMS. > It's > in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I would prefer to > use > MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what cost? Before I even > consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to know what > Oracle can > do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Have any of you > studied > this or do you know of any reasonably serious comparative research or > reviews? Thanks. > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list --- Eric Crist From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Sep 26 19:16:13 2008 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 19:16:13 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48DD4571.3050401@gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Ian Young > Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 3:26 PM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October > > > I really don't think asking for directions is all that flame-worthy. > I don't either. Many of us seldom go near the U because of traffic, parking, etc, We need the suggestion by frequent visitors on where to park and how to find the entrance that's open and so on. Did all that chatter about free WiFi everywhere ever result in WiFi a visitor can use most anywhere when just visiting? Chuck From marc at e-skinner.net Fri Sep 26 21:13:59 2008 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 21:13:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DD96E7.9080801@e-skinner.net> im no db expert/admin ... but to my knowledge, oracle gives you stored procedures, and active/active if you deploy with RAC. what exactly do you mean by replication? b/c i have done a lot of master/slave replication with mysql, and it works very well. i have had masters die and through the use of transaction logs been able to totally recover and convert a slave to master in a matter of hours (40gb database). if ha is important and you can't have any downtime, you will need to pony up the cash for a 2 node RAC deployment. if you are ok with the time needed to replay transaction logs (typically in the hours - on big db's) you can use an active/passive cluster. of course the other things that might be of interest - with oracle you get pretty gui's, polished reporting etc. it is also my understanding that companies like yahoo, slashdot and others of that size - use mysql for tb size databases with no problems. so it is very capable of performing enterprise db functions. if you find anything concrete - post it back - i think that would be interesting to see. thanks! Eric F Crist wrote: > R.E.P.L.I.C.A.T.I.O.N. > > > On Sep 26, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > > >> We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an RDBMS. >> It's >> in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I would prefer to >> use >> MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what cost? Before I even >> consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to know what >> Oracle can >> do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Have any of you >> studied >> this or do you know of any reasonably serious comparative research or >> reviews? Thanks. >> >> Mike >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > --- > Eric Crist > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From ecrist at secure-computing.net Fri Sep 26 22:37:34 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 22:37:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: <48DD96E7.9080801@e-skinner.net> References: <48DD96E7.9080801@e-skinner.net> Message-ID: I acknowledge I have pretty limited experience with MySQL replication, but I think it sucks. Oracle, in the use I've had, replicates nicely, recovers well, with relative ease; MySQL requires a *ton* of user intervention to replicate after a failure. What I do have experience with, OpenLDAP 2.4, I've found replication super easy. Don't start crying that LDAP is different than SQL. The fact of the matter is that *SQL should replicate as simply as OpenLDAP 2.4 does. Brain dead. Recovers from any point. Not only that, there can be *any* back end (OpenLDAP supports multiple, which can differ from Master to slave.) Just my two cents. If I did so, I apologize, I'm the furthest thing from an expert. Just ask anyone who knows me. :) Eric Crist On Sep 26, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Marc Skinner wrote: > im no db expert/admin ... > > but to my knowledge, oracle gives you stored procedures, and active/ > active if you deploy with RAC. > > what exactly do you mean by replication? b/c i have done a lot of > master/slave replication with mysql, and it works very well. i have > had masters die and through the use of transaction logs been able to > totally recover and convert a slave to master in a matter of hours > (40gb database). > if ha is important and you can't have any downtime, you will need to > pony up the cash for a 2 node RAC deployment. if you are ok with > the time needed to replay transaction logs (typically in the hours - > on big db's) you can use an active/passive cluster. > > of course the other things that might be of interest - with oracle > you get pretty gui's, polished reporting etc. > > it is also my understanding that companies like yahoo, slashdot and > others of that size - use mysql for tb size databases with no > problems. so it is very capable of performing enterprise db > functions. > > if you find anything concrete - post it back - i think that would be > interesting to see. > > thanks! > > > Eric F Crist wrote: >> R.E.P.L.I.C.A.T.I.O.N. >> >> >> On Sep 26, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Mike Miller wrote: >> >> >>> We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an >>> RDBMS. It's >>> in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I would prefer >>> to use >>> MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what cost? Before I even >>> consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to know what >>> Oracle can >>> do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Have any of you >>> studied >>> this or do you know of any reasonably serious comparative research >>> or >>> reviews? Thanks. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>> >> >> --- >> Eric Crist >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > --- Eric Crist From marc at e-skinner.net Fri Sep 26 23:53:24 2008 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2008 23:53:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: <48DD96E7.9080801@e-skinner.net> Message-ID: <48DDBC44.7030208@e-skinner.net> totally see your point. i do agree that mysql recovery is a manual process, but free with a couple hours of work might be ok compared to the $60-240k (depending on how many sockets) for oracles "seemless" failover. its all about what your really trying to accomplish, budget, etc. Eric F Crist wrote: > I acknowledge I have pretty limited experience with MySQL replication, > but I think it sucks. Oracle, in the use I've had, replicates nicely, > recovers well, with relative ease; MySQL requires a *ton* of user > intervention to replicate after a failure. > > What I do have experience with, OpenLDAP 2.4, I've found replication > super easy. Don't start crying that LDAP is different than SQL. The > fact of the matter is that *SQL should replicate as simply as OpenLDAP > 2.4 does. Brain dead. Recovers from any point. Not only that, there > can be *any* back end (OpenLDAP supports multiple, which can differ > from Master to slave.) > > Just my two cents. If I did so, I apologize, I'm the furthest thing > from an expert. Just ask anyone who knows me. :) > > Eric Crist > > > On Sep 26, 2008, at 9:13 PM, Marc Skinner wrote: > >> im no db expert/admin ... >> >> but to my knowledge, oracle gives you stored procedures, and >> active/active if you deploy with RAC. >> >> what exactly do you mean by replication? b/c i have done a lot of >> master/slave replication with mysql, and it works very well. i have >> had masters die and through the use of transaction logs been able to >> totally recover and convert a slave to master in a matter of hours >> (40gb database). >> if ha is important and you can't have any downtime, you will need to >> pony up the cash for a 2 node RAC deployment. if you are ok with the >> time needed to replay transaction logs (typically in the hours - on >> big db's) you can use an active/passive cluster. >> >> of course the other things that might be of interest - with oracle >> you get pretty gui's, polished reporting etc. >> >> it is also my understanding that companies like yahoo, slashdot and >> others of that size - use mysql for tb size databases with no >> problems. so it is very capable of performing enterprise db functions. >> >> if you find anything concrete - post it back - i think that would be >> interesting to see. >> >> thanks! >> >> >> Eric F Crist wrote: >>> R.E.P.L.I.C.A.T.I.O.N. >>> >>> >>> On Sep 26, 2008, at 6:45 PM, Mike Miller wrote: >>> >>> >>>> We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an >>>> RDBMS. It's >>>> in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I would prefer >>>> to use >>>> MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what cost? Before I even >>>> consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to know what >>>> Oracle can >>>> do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Have any of you >>>> studied >>>> this or do you know of any reasonably serious comparative research or >>>> reviews? Thanks. >>>> >>>> Mike >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>>> >>> >>> --- >>> Eric Crist >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>> >> > > --- > Eric Crist > > > > From strayf at freeshell.org Sat Sep 27 00:13:39 2008 From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:13:39 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DDC103.4050100@freeshell.org> Chuck Cole wrote: > >> [...] >> I really don't think asking for directions is all that flame-worthy. >> > > I don't either. Many of us seldom go near the U because of traffic, parking, etc, We need the suggestion by frequent visitors on > where to park and how to find the entrance that's open and so on. Did all that chatter about free WiFi everywhere ever result in > WiFi a visitor can use most anywhere when just visiting? > If I were going to drive there I'd probably park in the 19th Ave ramp (behind Midwest Mountaineering if you're coming from Cedar). Then walk up 19th Ave across Washington and turn right at the law school. Willey Hall is in the back of the law school building more or less. I don't think there's free wireless for visitors unless you're sponsored by a department, but I could be wrong. Here's the guest access page: http://www1.umn.edu/wireless/information/access/index.html -Steve From tclug at beitsahour.net Sat Sep 27 00:21:33 2008 From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 00:21:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> Chuck Cole wrote: > I don't either. Many of us seldom go near the U because of traffic, parking, etc, We need the suggestion by frequent visitors on > where to park and how to find the entrance that's open and so on. Did all that chatter about free WiFi everywhere ever result in > WiFi a visitor can use most anywhere when just visiting? For traffic and parking, the easiest thing is to take Public Transit, many buses pass through and around the U. If you have to drive, free parking is available on some of the side streets. I usually park on Ontario, which is a one way from E. River Rd. just go down Oak to E River Rd and 1/2 block south turn onto Ontario. The U does not have free WiFi to the best of my knowledge. I wonder if they can be persuaded to setup an open AP for the visit, in the spirit of freedom and all. From josh at joshwelch.com Sat Sep 27 07:56:11 2008 From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:56:11 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080927125611.6fcv2bol4w88sowk@joshwelch.com> I find the biggest thing to be vendor support for your applications. Many (maybe most?) application vendors try to keep their support down to the big ones Oracle, DB2 and MS SQL. You might find some support for Sybase as well. At my former employer a number of the developers used postgres and/or mysql for their development instances, but when it went to market you only had support for the big three. If you're using all in house applications it becomes a non-issue. Beyond that there are some very nice HA features that Oracle has that are desirable and are not matched in the FOSS world to my knowledge. 11g also has replaced the old *LOB data types with their Secure Files feature, some very cool stuff around encrypting, compression and de-duplication of data. These are all add on features to the core database and will cost you, so if you're not using them currently they don't factor in either. If you've got got a bunch of PL/SQL that you've developed, that would need to be migrated. Lastly, Oracle has a lot of fairly cool management tools that make life a lot easier for the DBA crowd. If they've been using these tools a lot you can expect considerable resistance from them regarding movement to a FOSS solution, they would need to develop an entirely new skill set and that almost always generates resistance. Josh Quoting Mike Miller : > We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an RDBMS. It's > in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I would prefer to use > MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what cost? Before I even > consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to know what Oracle can > do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Have any of you studied > this or do you know of any reasonably serious comparative research or > reviews? Thanks. > > Mike > From josh at trutwins.homeip.net Sat Sep 27 09:47:59 2008 From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 09:47:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080927094759.535445e6@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net> On Fri, 26 Sep 2008 18:45:10 -0500 (CDT) Mike Miller wrote: > We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an > RDBMS. It's in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I > would prefer to use MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what > cost? Before I even consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I > want to know what Oracle can do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) > cannot do. Have any of you studied this or do you know of any > reasonably serious comparative research or reviews? Thanks. Not that I dislike MySQL, but I think if you are looking to migrate to an open source RDBMS you might want to pick PostgreSQL for this kind of project, it is an Object-Relational DBMS with similar object features to Oracle, whereas MySQL would classify as an RDBMS. The PL/PGSQL language is fairly similar (of course there are differences) to PL/SQL if you have a log of stored procedures. Every DBMS has its quirks, even Oracle. For example, PostgreSQL cannot do cross database/cluster references like Ora/MySQL (select * from db1.table while connected to db2), but you can rollback DDL in Postgres (e.g. you can rollback an ALTER/CREATE/DROP TABLE command). Replication in PG is done via Slony, fulltext search is now integrated into 8.3 (vs. a contrib module previously). For MySQL you still have to use different table types for foreign key support, in PG that's just built into the default tables like it is in Oracle. PostgreSQL also has a fairly extensive data dictionary system via information_schema and pg_catalog, but MySQL has also made strides here as well recently. I also find the user/role/perm setup in PG much similar to Oracle's. Not sure if MySQL supports savepoints in transactions yet, PG does this, as well as two-phase commit. Lastly, PostgreSQL supports many of the similar object / array types / schemas that Oracle does. For me though, the main thing would be how many stored procs / triggers you have to migrate, if the number is high I would lean towards PG, MySQL's support for these is just still a little too new for my liking. Also, you do not have a lot of the trigger events in either db IIRC that you do in Oracle. I think in Oracle you can set triggers on logins, DDL operations, etc. In MySQL/PG your triggers are pretty much limited to before/after delete/insert/update. Hope that helps, I haven't used the newest MySQL versions so hopefully I'm not off-base on any of my comments. Josh From bhurt at spnz.org Sat Sep 27 10:22:44 2008 From: bhurt at spnz.org (Brian Hurt) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 11:22:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Sep 2008, Mike Miller wrote: > We have a lot of data -- apparently about 9,000 tables in an RDBMS. It's > in Oracle now. As a fan of open source solutions, I would prefer to use > MySQL or other open source RDBMS, but at what cost? Before I even > consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to know what Oracle can > do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Have any of you studied > this or do you know of any reasonably serious comparative research or > reviews? Thanks. We use Postgresql at work, and it works great. And it'd probably be easier to move from Oracle to Postgres than from Oracle to MySql- of all the open source databases, Postgres is the most like Oracle. It also scales well. We don't have thousands of tables, but we do have hundreds- several of which are at least medium-sized (pushing 100G per table). And I know people who have 10's of TB in Postgres databases. It also scales in terms of query complexity- we haven't noticed any problems with queries until you start getting 60-100 tables in the same join. So, in your situation, I'd recommend Postgresql rather strongly. Brian From thecubic at thecubic.net Sat Sep 27 12:05:03 2008 From: thecubic at thecubic.net (Dave Carlson) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:05:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48DE67BF.5000708@thecubic.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080927/fff6288e/attachment.htm From tclug at natecarlson.com Sat Sep 27 12:15:38 2008 From: tclug at natecarlson.com (Nate Carlson) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:15:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: <48DD96E7.9080801@e-skinner.net> References: <48DD96E7.9080801@e-skinner.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 26 Sep 2008, Marc Skinner wrote: > if ha is important and you can't have any downtime, you will need to > pony up the cash for a 2 node RAC deployment. if you are ok with the > time needed to replay transaction logs (typically in the hours - on big > db's) you can use an active/passive cluster. You can also deploy MySQL in a shared-nothing cluster, but there are disadvantages to doing so. Another option is to use DRBD and Heartbeat to handle failover; by doing that, you are actually failing over the same data disk, so no need to replay logs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ | nate carlson | natecars at natecarlson.com | http://www.natecarlson.com | | depriving some poor village of its idiot since 1981 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From kc0iog at gmail.com Sat Sep 27 14:49:08 2008 From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 14:49:08 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Data forensics (sort of OT) In-Reply-To: <65293fcc0809260943y3c63dbcck9220566646ee9956@mail.gmail.com> References: <65293fcc0809251958t4362616fmf04ad44befda54fc@mail.gmail.com> <48DC533B.30701@gmail.com> <65293fcc0809260943y3c63dbcck9220566646ee9956@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2c6699da0809271249t67118f92sb37126f484c67d07@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 11:43 AM, John Meier wrote: > > TestDisk did the trick - what a great tool! It rebuilt the GPT partition and I was able to access the 240Gb data that was on the drive. Glad to hear of your success. Normally I wouldn't post NTFS stuff to the list, but as luck would have it the timing is perfect. A freind of my gave me her laptop drive last week. Usual story, "it won't read, I don't have backups, I asked the IT people at college", etc. So, out of morbid curiosity, I plugged it into a spare Windows system and fired up Ontrack Easyrecovery Pro. As luck would have it, ERPro saw the NTFS partition, gave me a complete list of files, and I was off and running with the recovery. SWEET. 2 days later, the recovery process was continuing, albeit slowly. Est time to completion was 300 hours, but hey, this is a spare system. No problem. Files were coming to life one by one, excellent. Then I lost power in the thunderstorm the other day. When I brought everything back up, Easyrecovery no longer saw the partion table. Windows wouldn't see the disk in device manager. Fired up linux, all I see in /var/log/messages was SCSI sense errors for the disk in question. Can't fdisk it, can't cat it, and forget testdisk seeing it. Tried the freezer trick, no change. Same reslts with the SCSI sense errors. Windows is, well, still Windows. I think the power outage was the end of my luck, any other suggestions before I drop the disk in the trash? Thanks, Brian From thoth.serath at gmail.com Sat Sep 27 18:46:18 2008 From: thoth.serath at gmail.com (Chris G.) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2008 23:46:18 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] hotdish Message-ID: <7c055dc50809271646o6b430deau3deaba99ed9d8177@mail.gmail.com> if the dish is hot check to see if it has a casserole in it... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080927/198ba211/attachment.htm From haircut at gmail.com Sun Sep 28 10:46:42 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 10:46:42 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1222616802.7193.4.camel@scraps> Hi Mike, On Fri, 2008-09-26 at 18:45 -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > It's in Oracle now. Does that include stored procedures and use of Oracle-specific features? These are non-trivial to port to other databases such as MySQL. > Before I even consider moving data to MySQL from Oracle, I want to > know what Oracle can do that MySQL (or other FOSS product) cannot do. Tons. Oracle costs much more and has many more features. Consider the cost of Oracle DBAs versus MySQL DBAs, as well as hardware required to run either. I agree with Marc Skinner's comment about time spent administering MySQL. So I suppose it would help if you frame your request a bit. How much of an issue is price tag? IMHO, the most important hoop the Dolphin can get through that the Nuclear Submarine cannot is Free? Software. That in itself espouses myriad benefits over Oracle. Furthermore, I feel like the choice between MySQL and PostgreSQL is just a matter of preference due to features and whatnot. Both are excellent databases. But a disclaimer, I've barely touched PostgreSQL. I think the size of the database (9,000 tables?) isn't really an issue. Performance has more to do with hardware, what utilizes the database and how. You might even get better performance with MySQL over Oracle. As I'm sure you've found by now (and probably someone else mentioned) MySQL does indeed do stored procedures. > Have any of you studied this or do you know of any reasonably serious > comparative research or reviews? No, but I have used, lightly administered, and worked with support for both. Oracle support will cost you a lot, and my limited experience with them has been frustrating. Slow response times and unsatisfying answers. MySQL support is quite a bit less expensive, and my experience with them has been very positive. Rapid response times and laser-accurate answers. I've even talked to developers on the phone a couple of times. = =~=~=~=~= = Jargon legend: IMHO = in my humble opinion Dolphin = MySQL Nuclear Submarine = Oracle Free? Software = Libre and gratis. As in beer, as in speech. -- Adam Monsen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080928/976d2ebb/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Sun Sep 28 11:26:34 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 11:26:34 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Oracle v. MySQL In-Reply-To: <1222616802.7193.4.camel@scraps> References: <1222616802.7193.4.camel@scraps> Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for all the feedback and ideas on this thread. I asked another group the same question and I am learning that PostgreSQL would probably be easier than MySQL to port to. It will take me a while to learn what all the issues are with the Oracle database. Given the complexity of transitioning to PostreSQL or MySQL, it probably won't happen for awhile. It seems that we don't have to pay for it right now: http://www1.umn.edu/adcs/site/list.html The goal of these university discounts is to get students addicted to programs that they will then want to use in industry work. So money isn't the issue right now, but it is possible for the pricing scheme to change, though it probably will never cost enough to really matter. The more important issue is what our students and staff are learning and how easily we can replace workers who leave the project with people who understand the software. FOSS solutions tend to be more widely used because they are readily accessible to anyone and this can mean a better applicant pool. Such solutions also offer more control to the user because the code is available. (It is sometimes too much work to edit the code, but you can at least know that you can stick with an earlier version and not be forced to upgrade to something you don't like.) In academia, when we have a good idea, we often like to share it. If we produce something great that uses proprietary software, like Oracle, it isn't as helpful as when it uses a FOSS package -- we can't share all of the code because some of it is proprietary. The more we can work within the FOSS codebase, the better for the advancement of science. Mike From haircut at gmail.com Sun Sep 28 16:05:14 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 16:05:14 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] otl2beamer: convert vimoutliner text to LaTeX Beamer slideshow source code Message-ID: <9ebd65110809281405w4fb6dc3dj15e18e54bd859bbb@mail.gmail.com> A few folks asked about the program used to generate slides used during the Selenium talk last Wednesday and the Vim talk yesterday. As promised, I'm making it available under a FLOSS license. Input for this program is Vimoutliner-formatted text, which basically just means plain text with tabbed indentation levels. This text is reformatted into LaTeX Beamer source which can then be used to create PDF slideshows. It's pretty rough... consider this a "pre-alpha early-adopter" release. Limited documentation is available within the code. I've only tested it on Ubuntu 8.04.1. The program: http://adammonsen.com/tmp/otl2beamer.py Example input: http://adammonsen.com/tmp/outline.otl Example usage: otl2beamer.py outline.otl > slides.tex pdflatex slides.tex xpdf slides.pdf Materials from talks this week: http://adammonsen.com/talks -- Adam Monsen From webmaster at mn-linux.org Sun Sep 28 22:21:06 2008 From: webmaster at mn-linux.org (TCLUG Classifieds) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2008 22:21:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] New TCLUG Classified Ad Message-ID: <200809290321.m8T3L6o04656@crusader.real-time.com> New TCLUG Classified Ad Category: Computer Type of Ad: For Sale Subject: dell laptops I have 3 Dell laptops for sale: Dell Inspiron e1505 15? Widescreen 1.73Ghz Core Duo 768MB RAM 30GB HDD CD-RW/DVD $420 or B.O. Dell Inspiron e1505 15? Widescreen 1.83Ghz Core Duo 1GB RAM 74GB HDD CD-RW/DVD-RW $450 or B.O. Dell Inspiron 9300 17? Widescreen 2.0Ghz Pentium M 1GB RAM 74GB HDD CD-RW/DVD $500 or B.O. Seller Email address: kevin dot lombardo at gmail dot com http://www.mn-linux.org/cgi-bin/classifieds/index.cgi From josh at tcbug.org Mon Sep 29 08:13:55 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 08:13:55 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> Message-ID: <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Munir Nassar wrote: > Chuck Cole wrote: > >> I don't either. Many of us seldom go near the U because of traffic, parking, etc, We need the suggestion by frequent visitors on >> where to park and how to find the entrance that's open and so on. Did all that chatter about free WiFi everywhere ever result in >> WiFi a visitor can use most anywhere when just visiting? > > For traffic and parking, the easiest thing is to take Public Transit, > many buses pass through and around the U. > > If you have to drive, free parking is available on some of the side > streets. I usually park on Ontario, which is a one way from E. River Rd. > just go down Oak to E River Rd and 1/2 block south turn onto Ontario. > > The U does not have free WiFi to the best of my knowledge. I wonder if > they can be persuaded to setup an open AP for the visit, in the spirit > of freedom and all. Probably not a good idea, as people could use non-free software like OpenSSL and access their email via IMAPS or go to a HTTPS webpage, or *gasp* stream music in a non-free format like mp3. The previous paragraph is a bit tongue in cheek, but I've had the (mis)fortune of actually meeting RMS, and he's so dedicated to using Free Software that he won't go to SSL enabled websites for example. While I admire his zealotry, (in the same way I admire chastity I suppose, a trait best found in others) I find it a bit silly when licenses stop you from using software. Especially when it's not "Free enough" by virtue of having less restrictions on it than your definition of Free Software. I suppose I could go on about how the FSF claims Free Software puts an end to reimplimenting things, and then point out that they are responsible for as many reimplimentations as anyone, but it's far too early to step on the toes of starry-eyed hero worshippers. - -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFI4NSTJvkB8SevrssRAvxQAJ9R4017auLm7PHHduJAI0HqgI7vxgCfd4lS zfN90bUdjopaJD/7QzUAgk8= =elXN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Sep 29 12:18:45 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 12:18:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote: [snip] > I've had the (mis)fortune of actually meeting RMS, and he's so dedicated > to using Free Software that he won't go to SSL enabled websites for > example. Is SSL non-free? I didn't know that. > While I admire his zealotry, (in the same way I admire chastity I > suppose, a trait best found in others) I find it a bit silly when > licenses stop you from using software. Especially when it's not "Free > enough" by virtue of having less restrictions on it than your definition > of Free Software. Stallman does things mostly to promote his ideas. He must know that very few people will follow in his footsteps. He wrote to me once to tell me to stop using Pine because of its license. I have persisted anyway, but if I were to write to him again, I would use Alpine. I have Alpine installed but it is prone to crash on my Solaris box. Once I get everything onto Linux, it is likely that I will use Alpine exclusively and stop using Pine. I really liked your line about chastity. > I suppose I could go on about how the FSF claims Free Software puts an > end to reimplimenting things, and then point out that they are > responsible for as many reimplimentations as anyone, but it's far too > early to step on the toes of starry-eyed hero worshippers. I would like to hear about that. I don't know what "reimplementations" means -- are Linux distros considered reimplementations? Am I one of the "starry-eyed hero worshippers?" That sounds like an exaggeration. All I am saying is that Stallman has done things that I consider to be great, and he has done them at a huge personal cost -- tell me how many of his ilk at MIT's AI lab in the 1970s aren't multi-millionaires today. Not Stallman. In return he has my respect and admiration and my thanks (and I paid for a bunch of his manuals even though I didn't have to). My support for Stallman isn't necessarily permanent or unconditional though -- if he does something that I consider to be improper or crazy, or whatever, I will say so. So please tell us more. Mike From jus at krytosvirus.com Mon Sep 29 14:06:44 2008 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:06:44 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> > My support for Stallman isn't necessarily > permanent or unconditional though -- if he does something that I consider > to be improper or crazy, or whatever, I will say so. So please tell us > more. Do a search for the following quoted string "Real men don't attack straw men" and you will see an enormous email thread on an OpenBSD mailing list that RMS initiated. To save everyone from the endless torrent of messages on that thread here is my take on the overall summary (note: I have not read every message either but I generally read all of the ones from people of authority like the developers). RMS believes non-free software is evil. You can look up his definition of non-free on your own if you are not familiar with it. He started the thread with a "I cannot endorse OpenBSD as a recommended OS to people because it contains non-free software". It was strongly criticized (lots of emotional non-developers replied - ignore many of these) but many of the developers and even the principal leader of OpenBSD, Theo, also contradicted RMS's statements. The primary concern by RMS was mis-communicated by himself with regards to the ports system which allows one to download, compile, and run non-free software, though he mis-communicated this in many highly visible interviews and what not. With OpenBSD if you download from the FTP, purchase the official CD-ROMs, etc you will get no non-free software at all but you will get ports which is a "scaffold" to allow you get non-free software. RMS is against any organizations officially sanctioned recommendation of non-free software by way of documentation, official website links, code such as the ports, etc. The ports system is 100% free software as it is mostly just makefiles and similar with an occasional patch file. RMS view is this action indicates OpenBSD legitimizes non-free software and is thus not on his very short list of OS's that meet his criteria. If OpenBSD removes all makefiles and references to non-free software from their core system and websites then he is fine with OpenBSD. Theo and others have pointed out that his own code for GCC and Emacs have OS specific code for non-free OS's and even pre-compiled binaries. This has been viewed as a hypocrisy by RMS as he is essentially promoting the use non-free software himself since they went out of their way to make non-free software work with his "ultra" free software. They cited GNU/FSF URLs and code snippets directly. Aside from the apparent hypocrisy above, RMS's general point of view was called into question as it may be debatable as to whether or not it truly is the best method of achieving his goal of zero non-free software in the world such as this found in this post http://marc.info/?l=openbsd-misc&m=119758671318727&w=2 While I agree with the general stance of "free software is better morally than non-free software" I also accept and understand that there are certain things that cannot be done without non-free software currently. While I would advocate for free software, I for sure want the non-free software running on things important to saving lives which. There are tons in the medical world like MRI machines, as one single example. Does he drive a car with non-free software? Ride airplanes? Some non-free software helps drive advancement and innovation. If a viable free software replacement became available I would certainly be interested in checking it out but if we scrapped all non-free software many people's quality of life would drop to near zero. Let's not let fundamental extremism rule us; a modicum of reality mixed in with your ideology is probably not a bad thing. From josh at tcbug.org Mon Sep 29 14:05:21 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 14:05:21 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <48E126F1.8000104@tcbug.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mike Miller wrote: > On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > [snip] >> I've had the (mis)fortune of actually meeting RMS, and he's so >> dedicated to using Free Software that he won't go to SSL enabled >> websites for example. > > Is SSL non-free? I didn't know that. > Yes, the FSF has been very aggressive about protecting the phrase Free Software. They define it as software having GPL compatable licensing. Which OpenSSL (really the only implimentation of SSL that matters) does not have. > >> While I admire his zealotry, (in the same way I admire chastity I >> suppose, a trait best found in others) I find it a bit silly when >> licenses stop you from using software. Especially when it's not "Free >> enough" by virtue of having less restrictions on it than your >> definition of Free Software. > > Stallman does things mostly to promote his ideas. He must know that > very few people will follow in his footsteps. He wrote to me once to > tell me to stop using Pine because of its license. I have persisted > anyway, but if I were to write to him again, I would use Alpine. I have > Alpine installed but it is prone to crash on my Solaris box. Once I get > everything onto Linux, it is likely that I will use Alpine exclusively > and stop using Pine. > > I really liked your line about chastity. > > >> I suppose I could go on about how the FSF claims Free Software puts an >> end to reimplimenting things, and then point out that they are >> responsible for as many reimplimentations as anyone, but it's far too >> early to step on the toes of starry-eyed hero worshippers. > > I would like to hear about that. I don't know what "reimplementations" > means -- are Linux distros considered reimplementations? > Linux itself is a reimplimentation of unix. Many of the GNU tools are reimplimentations of tools that were freely available simply to have a GPL licensed version. Hence gawk, gnu grep, gnu sed, so on and so forth. > Am I one of the "starry-eyed hero worshippers?" That sounds like an > exaggeration. All I am saying is that Stallman has done things that I > consider to be great, and he has done them at a huge personal cost -- > tell me how many of his ilk at MIT's AI lab in the 1970s aren't > multi-millionaires today. Not Stallman. In return he has my respect > and admiration and my thanks (and I paid for a bunch of his manuals even > though I didn't have to). My support for Stallman isn't necessarily > permanent or unconditional though -- if he does something that I > consider to be improper or crazy, or whatever, I will say so. So please > tell us more. > > Mike > No idea. Are you? Historically on this list suggesting that RMS is anything other than divinely inspired has been met with harsh criticism. - -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFI4SbxJvkB8SevrssRAsjpAJ91I6gY2q0xunQUo35zeriOH1+XKACfVQcj ZuI/uVJkNvHGv+rAbqAgjfY= =MxoO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Sep 29 17:23:31 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:23:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E126F1.8000104@tcbug.org> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <48E126F1.8000104@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > Mike Miller wrote: > >> Is SSL non-free? I didn't know that. > > Yes, the FSF has been very aggressive about protecting the phrase Free > Software. They define it as software having GPL compatable licensing. > Which OpenSSL (really the only implimentation of SSL that matters) does > not have. Interesting. I found some info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenSSL#Licensing It is a fairly trivial deviation from freeness, but it is a deviation. Stallman probably pursues it because he won't use non-free and he wants them to change the license. It is good code and he could use it! >> I would like to hear about that. I don't know what "reimplementations" >> means -- are Linux distros considered reimplementations? > > Linux itself is a reimplimentation of unix. Many of the GNU tools are > reimplimentations of tools that were freely available simply to have a > GPL licensed version. Hence gawk, gnu grep, gnu sed, so on and so > forth. You write that "FSF claims Free Software puts an end to reimplimenting things." When did FSF say that and why? That doesn't make sense to me. Can you document that they made that claim? > Historically on this list suggesting that RMS is anything other than > divinely inspired has been met with harsh criticism. That's interesting. I didn't know this list was like that. Usually I see more nastiness and anti-Stallman criticism than hero worship on every list where the topic of Stallman comes up. The other thing I see are claims about Stallman that are undocumented and often untrue. We are asked to rely on the impressions of the writer instead of being given direct quotations from Stallman and sources to document their origin. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Sep 29 17:34:08 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:34:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, Justin Krejci wrote: > RMS believes non-free software is evil. You can look up his definition > of non-free on your own if you are not familiar with it. He started the > thread with a "I cannot endorse OpenBSD as a recommended OS to people > because it contains non-free software". Google cannot find that quotation anywhere on the web. Are you sure you have it right? It looks like this might be the start of the thread you are thinking of: http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/openbsd-misc/2007/12/10/486713 In that thread Stallman wrote "It looks like some people are having a discussion in which they construct views they would find outrageous, attribute them to me, and then try to blame me for them." He does go on to say this... From what I have heard, OpenBSD does not contain non-free software (though I am not sure whether it contains any non-free firmware blobs). However, its ports system does suggest non-free programs, or at least so I was told when I looked for some BSD variant that I could recommend. I therefore exercise my freedom of speech by not including OpenBSD in the list of systems that I recommend to the public. ...which is a different view than the one you attribute to him above. Can you document the source for your quote above? Mike From gm5729 at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 17:42:07 2008 From: gm5729 at gmail.com (GK) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:42:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Vi/m notes or slides available? Message-ID: <200809291742.20451.gm5729@gmail.com> Hey all I missed the PenguinsUnbound mtg the other night because I thought it was going to be later in the day. Were there any notes or slides on the topic presented? Something take home style at all? If so I would love to have a copy if someone would provide one to me. Thanks Vi^3PirePengy -- ------- GPG signed 11FD 290A FAAE 07A7 9876 37AC D14F 11D6 0831 0392 Many individuals and organizations around the globe have developed international cross platform protocols to support your freedoms and ideas. Please support Open Standards for software and hardware with cross platform ISO standards and not proprietary formats from monopolies and the associated vendor lockin. If you are a Windows user protect yourself from various known software vulnerabilities that allow virii, malware, adware, trojans, etc., and use Firefox/Mozilla with NoScript for web browsing and not Internet Explorer. HTML emails, Microsoft DOC(X)/XLS(X) formats are not acceptable to send me. Please enclose inline or by attachment with RTF, TXT, DJVU or PDF formats. Thank You. This email generated by a Linux Operating System and accompanying software. Encryption of data and emails is encouraged and welcomed with GnuPG. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080929/f7225731/attachment.pgp From jus at krytosvirus.com Mon Sep 29 17:43:41 2008 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 17:43:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> Message-ID: <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> My apologies for my confusing grammar. It is not a direct quote. I put it in quotes to indicate the start and finish of my one sentence summary of the overall discussion. I do not find his views outrageous; I generally tend to agree with his overall philosophy. In your link read the first sentence of the third paragraph which is basically what I said in my one-sentence summary. -----Original Message----- From: Mike Miller [mailto:mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu] Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 5:34 PM To: Justin Krejci Cc: TCLUG List Subject: RE: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, Justin Krejci wrote: > RMS believes non-free software is evil. You can look up his definition > of non-free on your own if you are not familiar with it. He started the > thread with a "I cannot endorse OpenBSD as a recommended OS to people > because it contains non-free software". Google cannot find that quotation anywhere on the web. Are you sure you have it right? It looks like this might be the start of the thread you are thinking of: http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/openbsd-misc/2007/12/10/486713 In that thread Stallman wrote "It looks like some people are having a discussion in which they construct views they would find outrageous, attribute them to me, and then try to blame me for them." He does go on to say this... From what I have heard, OpenBSD does not contain non-free software (though I am not sure whether it contains any non-free firmware blobs). However, its ports system does suggest non-free programs, or at least so I was told when I looked for some BSD variant that I could recommend. I therefore exercise my freedom of speech by not including OpenBSD in the list of systems that I recommend to the public. ...which is a different view than the one you attribute to him above. Can you document the source for your quote above? Mike From haircut at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 18:14:53 2008 From: haircut at gmail.com (Adam Monsen) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:14:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Vi/m notes or slides available? In-Reply-To: <200809291742.20451.gm5729@gmail.com> References: <200809291742.20451.gm5729@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1222730093.21921.3.camel@scraps> On Mon, 2008-09-29 at 17:42 -0500, GK wrote: > Were there any notes or slides on the topic presented? Something take > home style at all? If so I would love to have a copy if someone would > provide one to me. Sure, please see: http://adammonsen.com/talk/2008-09-27/Vim.tgz I'll try to keep this up to date: http://adammonsen.com/talks -- Adam Monsen -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080929/83b6256b/attachment-0001.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Mon Sep 29 18:18:42 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:18:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, Justin Krejci wrote: > My apologies for my confusing grammar. > > It is not a direct quote. I put it in quotes to indicate the start and > finish of my one sentence summary of the overall discussion. I do not > find his views outrageous; I generally tend to agree with his overall > philosophy. > > In your link read the first sentence of the third paragraph which is > basically what I said in my one-sentence summary. That would be here: http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/openbsd-misc/2007/12/10/486713 His idea is not that FreBSD "contains non-free software" (what you wrote) it's much more pedantic than that -- it's that FreeBSD's "ports system does suggest non-free programs." Apparently, the FreeBSD supporters make a big issue of it, but really all Stallman is doing is saying that he doesn't recommend FreeBSD for that reason. If they want him to recommend it, they'll have to change it. It's not that he is doing something wrong. His thing is to promote free software, and he can do that better by not recommending FreeBSD. He isn't attacking FreeBSD, he's just not recommending it. Mike From j at packetgod.com Mon Sep 29 22:39:53 2008 From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:39:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> > His idea is not that FreBSD "contains non-free software" (what you wrote) > it's much more pedantic than that -- it's that FreeBSD's "ports system > does suggest non-free programs." > > Apparently, the FreeBSD supporters make a big issue of it, but really all > Stallman is doing is saying that he doesn't recommend FreeBSD for that > reason. If they want him to recommend it, they'll have to change it. > It's not that he is doing something wrong. His thing is to promote free > software, and he can do that better by not recommending FreeBSD. He isn't > attacking FreeBSD, he's just not recommending it. > > Mike > So he wants FreeBSD to restrict and close off the system to limit what people can do with it? Umm.. what? I guess that is perhaps the difference between free and open? From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com Mon Sep 29 23:26:40 2008 From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for help installing my scanner Message-ID: <289358.71957.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, I recently installed Ubuntu (as a dual boot system) and for the most part, I love it. I am having some problems with getting some hardware to work though. When I start XSane with no scanner attached I get the (expected) message "No Device Available". After plugging the (Microtek ScanMaker 4800) scanner in (to the USB port) and running XSane, I get the error message "Failed to open device "sm3840 libusb:001:004": Access to resource has been denied." Sooooo, it's recognizing the scanner (sm3840 is the correct backend according to the sane website). What is wrong, and how does this newbie fix it? Next I work on my SiS audio card. I need to learn how to set it so that I can use 4 speakers (the "audio in" needs to be switched to "speakers out"). Does anyone know anything about the Pinnacle AV/DV card? Why don't more hardware manufacturers provide drivers and support for Linux? Thanks in advance for your help! Bob From josh at tcbug.org Mon Sep 29 23:39:26 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:39:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 J Cruit wrote: >> His idea is not that FreBSD "contains non-free software" (what you wrote) >> it's much more pedantic than that -- it's that FreeBSD's "ports system >> does suggest non-free programs." >> >> Apparently, the FreeBSD supporters make a big issue of it, but really all >> Stallman is doing is saying that he doesn't recommend FreeBSD for that >> reason. If they want him to recommend it, they'll have to change it. >> It's not that he is doing something wrong. His thing is to promote free >> software, and he can do that better by not recommending FreeBSD. He isn't >> attacking FreeBSD, he's just not recommending it. >> >> Mike >> > > So he wants FreeBSD to restrict and close off the system to limit what > people can do with it? Umm.. what? > > I guess that is perhaps the difference between free and open? Personally I'm all about choices. Give me the freedom to choose proprietary closed source software, open source software, or free software. I use a mixture of all three. Restricting my freedom to choose, whether it's proprietary closed source, Free Software, or Open Source software leaves me feeling unsatisfied and unfulfilled, and if I want to feel that way I can always download a linux distribution. I don't need someone telling me I shouldn't listen to mp3's simply because they aren't "Free" ;) - -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFI4a1+JvkB8SevrssRAuZsAJ0dxm61co04PWx3k1+REzfgeZ1N1wCcD/LK z8q6U9PDH5nYRzii5gR1D9U= =jbyG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 01:56:33 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 01:56:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, J Cruit wrote: >> His idea is not that FreBSD "contains non-free software" (what you >> wrote) it's much more pedantic than that -- it's that FreeBSD's "ports >> system does suggest non-free programs." >> >> Apparently, the FreeBSD supporters make a big issue of it, but really >> all Stallman is doing is saying that he doesn't recommend FreeBSD for >> that reason. If they want him to recommend it, they'll have to change >> it. It's not that he is doing something wrong. His thing is to promote >> free software, and he can do that better by not recommending FreeBSD. >> He isn't attacking FreeBSD, he's just not recommending it. >> >> Mike > > So he wants FreeBSD to restrict and close off the system to limit what > people can do with it? Umm.. what? > > I guess that is perhaps the difference between free and open? He wants the FreeBSD ports system to suggest only free software programs and never to suggest a proprietary program. That makes sense to me. My understanding is that Stallman's approach would not prevent a FreeBSD user from downloading and installing a proprietary program. Apparently it now lists options for users who are thinking of installing something and it lists both proprietary and FOSS programs. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 02:05:49 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 02:05:49 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Sep 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote: > Personally I'm all about choices. Give me the freedom to choose > proprietary closed source software, open source software, or free > software. I use a mixture of all three. Me too. I strongly prefer FOSS solutions but I need to get things done and sometimes there is a good proprietary program and nothing even close to it in the FOSS domain. > Restricting my freedom to choose, whether it's proprietary closed > source, Free Software, or Open Source software leaves me feeling > unsatisfied and unfulfilled, and if I want to feel that way I can always > download a linux distribution. I don't need someone telling me I > shouldn't listen to mp3's simply because they aren't "Free" ;) Stallman isn't trying to restrict freedom of choice, he just doesn't want a FreeBSD user to think "hey what can I use for photo editing" then have FreeBSD return some options like this: GIMP ImageMagick Photoshop (In reality there probably is no Photoshop for FreeBSD and it is expensive, but...) He wants the list to look like this: GIMP ImageMagick I agree with him. If someone wants to find a proprietary program and install it, fine, but we shouldn't write FOSS code that includes suggestions that people use non-FOSS code. Why? By the way, I used to do certain photo editing batch jobs in Photoshop, but now I use 'convert' from ImageMagick, and ImageMagick does a better job for me than Photoshop. It's all about the settings: Photoshop "actions" are just harder to work with than command-line arguments, so I didn't really optimize the Photoshop settings, but I did that with 'convert' because it was easy and the final result was excellent. Mike From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Sep 30 08:44:25 2008 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:44:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:39:26 -0500, "Josh Paetzel" said: > Personally I'm all about choices. Give me the freedom to choose > proprietary closed source software, open source software, or free > software. I use a mixture of all three. > > Restricting my freedom to choose, whether it's proprietary closed > source, Free Software, or Open Source software leaves me feeling > unsatisfied and unfulfilled, and if I want to feel that way I can always > download a linux distribution. I don't need someone telling me I > shouldn't listen to mp3's simply because they aren't "Free" ;) > I personally agree with Josh but I'd like to point out where I think RMS is coming from. To him proprietary software is 'evil.' This is a philosophical position which brings up questions such as: "To what extent does my use of proprietary software make me a participant in evil?" "To what extent does my promotion of a system that makes an evil program available to others make me a participant in evil?" "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?" Through his words and actions, I think he's shown where he stands on these questions. Not everyone has to agree with RMS and not everyone does. Even though I disagree with RMS on a philosophical level, I agree with him on a pragmatic level in that it is in our best interest as a free society to promote the use of free software and discourage the use of proprietary software. From sloncho at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 08:40:59 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 08:40:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:39 PM, J Cruit wrote: > > So he wants FreeBSD to restrict and close off the system to limit what > people can do with it? Umm.. what? > > I guess that is perhaps the difference between free and open? > He does not want anything. He just says, that he himself can not promote FreeBSD because their decision contradicts with his ideas. So, I do not see it as restriction. You most probably would not promote eating raw meet, but it does not restrict me in any way to order rare done stake. :) Cheers -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 10:38:15 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:38:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Isaac Atilano wrote: > I personally agree with Josh but I'd like to point out where I think RMS > is coming from. > To him proprietary software is 'evil.' Did he actually write somewhere that it was "evil." I think I can find pages where he has written that DRM is evil. I think he says that there are evil effects of proprietary software but I don't think he would say that it is evil to produce software with a proprietary license. I could easily be wrong though. Also, I wouldn't take the word "evil" too seriously because it is often used as a loose shorthand for "something that isn't good for us." > This is a philosophical position > which brings up questions such as: > "To what extent does my use of proprietary software make me a > participant in evil?" > "To what extent does my promotion of a system that makes an evil program > available to others make me a participant in evil?" > "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?" > Through his words and actions, I think he's shown where he stands on > these questions. > > Not everyone has to agree with RMS and not everyone does. > Even though I disagree with RMS on a philosophical level, I agree with > him on a pragmatic level in that it is in our best interest as a free > society to promote the use of free software and discourage the use of > proprietary software. I think he has found that taking an extreme position is necessary for him if he's going to make progress in getting people to be like you and me. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 10:43:17 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:43:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Sunny wrote: > On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:39 PM, J Cruit wrote: > >> So he wants FreeBSD to restrict and close off the system to limit what >> people can do with it? Umm.. what? >> >> I guess that is perhaps the difference between free and open? > > He does not want anything. He just says, that he himself can not promote > FreeBSD because their decision contradicts with his ideas. > > So, I do not see it as restriction. You most probably would not promote > eating raw meet, but it does not restrict me in any way to order rare > done stake. :) Taking that analogy a step farther -- Suppose you had a friend who wanted to promote vegetarian food, and your friend owned a restaurant. You went to your friend's restaurant and saw that he had steak on the menu. So you told your friend, "I'm sorry that I cannot recommend your restaurant to people because I am trying to promote vegetarianism and your menu has steak on it!" Your friend thinks it is important to give people options. So you continue -- "Look, I don't mind if you serve steak, just take it off of the menu so that most people will order veggie dishes." In the analogy, the restaurant is FreeBSD, the menu is the ports system, the steak is a proprietary program and the veggie dishes are FOSS programs. Mike From tclug at lizakowski.com Tue Sep 30 11:08:38 2008 From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:08:38 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <200809301108.38422.tclug@lizakowski.com> > "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?" In order for evil to exist, you must be able to choose it. On Tuesday 30 September 2008 8:44:25 am Isaac Atilano wrote: > On Mon, 29 Sep 2008 23:39:26 -0500, "Josh Paetzel" > > said: > > Personally I'm all about choices. Give me the freedom to choose > > proprietary closed source software, open source software, or free > > software. I use a mixture of all three. > > > > Restricting my freedom to choose, whether it's proprietary closed > > source, Free Software, or Open Source software leaves me feeling > > unsatisfied and unfulfilled, and if I want to feel that way I can always > > download a linux distribution. I don't need someone telling me I > > shouldn't listen to mp3's simply because they aren't "Free" ;) > > I personally agree with Josh but I'd like to point out where I think RMS > is coming from. > To him proprietary software is 'evil.' This is a philosophical position > which brings up questions such as: > "To what extent does my use of proprietary software make me a > participant in evil?" > "To what extent does my promotion of a system that makes an evil program > available to others make me a participant in evil?" > "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?" > Through his words and actions, I think he's shown where he stands on > these questions. > > Not everyone has to agree with RMS and not everyone does. > Even though I disagree with RMS on a philosophical level, I agree with > him on a pragmatic level in that it is in our best interest as a free > society to promote the use of free software and discourage the use of > proprietary software. > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Sep 30 11:37:19 2008 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:37:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <200809301108.38422.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200809301108.38422.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <1222792639.406.1276775065@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:08:38 -0500, "Jeremy" said: > > "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?" > > In order for evil to exist, you must be able to choose it. People don't chose poverty, natural disasters, disease, etc. which are considered evils. From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Sep 30 11:53:58 2008 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 11:53:58 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1222793638.4198.1276778569@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:38:15 -0500 (CDT), "Mike Miller" said: > > Did he actually write somewhere that it was "evil." I think I can find > pages where he has written that DRM is evil. I think he says that there > are evil effects of proprietary software but I don't think he would say > that it is evil to produce software with a proprietary license. I could > easily be wrong though. Also, I wouldn't take the word "evil" too > seriously because it is often used as a loose shorthand for "something > that isn't good for us." "Proprietary software is evil because it attacks freedom and social solidarity." --Transcript of Richard Stallman at the 5th international GPLv3 conference; 21st November 2006 From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Sep 30 12:27:45 2008 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:27:45 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:38:15 -0500 (CDT), "Mike Miller" said: > easily be wrong though. Also, I wouldn't take the word "evil" too > seriously because it is often used as a loose shorthand for "something > that isn't good for us." RMS is definitely not known for using words loosely. Case in point: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html > > I think he has found that taking an extreme position is necessary for him > if he's going to make progress in getting people to be like you and me. > I disagree with that opinion. I think extremism turns people off. From j at packetgod.com Tue Sep 30 12:55:31 2008 From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 12:55:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <38aa5b6a0809301055j699794f0k559f6df4ebf754c3@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:27 PM, Isaac Atilano wrote: > > On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:38:15 -0500 (CDT), "Mike Miller" > said: > >> easily be wrong though. Also, I wouldn't take the word "evil" too >> seriously because it is often used as a loose shorthand for "something >> that isn't good for us." > > RMS is definitely not known for using words loosely. > Case in point: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html Well I think in the software industry ecosystem freely available (give away software, for free or freeware) open BSD-style consumer commercial for the PC or Linux system such as a LAMP system can be protected from piracy or theft of intellectual property by use of trusted computing protection and/or digital rights management that is reasonable and non-discriminory (RAND).. Any creators out there able to help photoshop up some jpegs for a powerpoint on this? For no compensation of course but if you want anything for your mp3 player I may be able to hook you up with a "vendor". --a hacker :D From josh at tcbug.org Tue Sep 30 15:14:49 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:14:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Mike Miller wrote: > On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Sunny wrote: > >> On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 10:39 PM, J Cruit wrote: >> >>> So he wants FreeBSD to restrict and close off the system to limit what >>> people can do with it? Umm.. what? >>> >>> I guess that is perhaps the difference between free and open? >> He does not want anything. He just says, that he himself can not promote >> FreeBSD because their decision contradicts with his ideas. >> >> So, I do not see it as restriction. You most probably would not promote >> eating raw meet, but it does not restrict me in any way to order rare >> done stake. :) > > > Taking that analogy a step farther -- Suppose you had a friend who wanted > to promote vegetarian food, and your friend owned a restaurant. You went > to your friend's restaurant and saw that he had steak on the menu. So you > told your friend, "I'm sorry that I cannot recommend your restaurant to > people because I am trying to promote vegetarianism and your menu has > steak on it!" Your friend thinks it is important to give people options. > So you continue -- "Look, I don't mind if you serve steak, just take it > off of the menu so that most people will order veggie dishes." > > In the analogy, the restaurant is FreeBSD, the menu is the ports system, > the steak is a proprietary program and the veggie dishes are FOSS > programs. > > Mike What if he had vegetarian dishes on the menu as well as steak? And believed in giving people the power to choose? You can get a vegetarian meal here....or you can get a steak. Pick what you want. If the vegetarian can't recommend the restaurant then, does he not then stand in the position of wanting to limit other people's choices? Sure, the nvidia binary drivers are in the FreeBSD ports tree. No one is forcing you to use them. You're more than free to use the Xorg open source nv driver. Where I start to lose tolerance in when you tell me I can't use the nvidia binary drivers either. Or have to jump through hoops to use them. Now you're infringing on my right to choose. I also have to point out that you seem to consider yourself the only person who can decide what RMS means when he says things. Anyone else is demanded to provide "proof" - -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFI4oi4JvkB8SevrssRAlEyAJ94g4eN2WgztUMXHrSp4I9YoIv5XACfSgdL enC0q8jY+p6og96xADO3RIg= =R+/m -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From sloncho at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 15:39:06 2008 From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:39:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> References: <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > What if he had vegetarian dishes on the menu as well as steak? And > believed in giving people the power to choose? You can get a vegetarian > meal here....or you can get a steak. Pick what you want. > > If the vegetarian can't recommend the restaurant then, does he not then > stand in the position of wanting to limit other people's choices? Neither the vegetarian, nor RMS have the obligation to promote/recommend anything. Nor someone can make them to. Nor someone should listen to their recommendations. It's absolutely voluntary. So, in that scope RMS in not limiting anybody - go and use OpenBSD as much as you wish. Just do not expect RMS to start telling people who listen to him (and a lot do) that this is "free" as defined by him and FSM (movement). > > I also have to point out that you seem to consider yourself the only > person who can decide what RMS means when he says things. Anyone else > is demanded to provide "proof" > The proof is in the last 2 paragraphs in the original post here: http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/openbsd-misc/2007/12/10/486713 He clearly explains that its about recommendation, and not an ethical judgment. Btw, I do not know where from FreeBSD get involved, as the orig. post was about OpenBSD. Sorry for using it in my prev. posts. Cheers -- Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny) Even the most advanced equipment in the hands of the ignorant is just a pile of scrap. From max at bernsteinforpresident.com Tue Sep 30 15:42:50 2008 From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 15:42:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <200809301542.51223.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> > > I think he has found that taking an extreme position is necessary for him > > if he's going to make progress in getting people to be like you and me. > > I disagree with that opinion. I think extremism turns people off. > It depends on the situation. RMS wants people to realize the importance of Free Software. For this, extremism is necessary. He is trying to set a good example. If the leader of the Free Software Movement said "I'm only going to use Free Software when it is practical", no one would bother looking into the importance. Actions speak louder than words, especially here. When people see how devoted Stallman is to this cause, they look into it and see why it is so important to him. This is exactly what he wants. In some cases, though, it hurts more than it helps. Read "Why schools should exclusively use free software" (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html) for an example of this. If you try to convince someone in a situation like this, it is important to make them believe you only care about the practical benefits. From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com Tue Sep 30 16:35:03 2008 From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:35:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <200809301108.38422.tclug@lizakowski.com> References: <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200809301108.38422.tclug@lizakowski.com> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080930161534.025ebee0@pop.mm.com> At 9/30/2008 11:08 AM, Jeremy wrote: > > "Should we have the liberty to chose something that is evil?" > >In order for evil to exist, you must be able to choose it. Almost. More precisely: For moral behavior to exist, one must have the freedom to choose between good and evil. If the only option is good behavior, one cannot behave morally. Likewise, if the only option is evil. See the novel "A Clockwork Orange", or Kubrick's move version, for an elaboration of this theme. From teeahr1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 16:51:04 2008 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:51:04 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> References: <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <200809301651.08296.teeahr1@gmail.com> On Tuesday September 30 2008 15:14:49 Josh Paetzel wrote: *snip* > If the vegetarian can't recommend the restaurant then, does he not then > stand in the position of wanting to limit other people's choices? No, it puts him in the position of not wanting to recommend it. Are you serious? > > Sure, the nvidia binary drivers are in the FreeBSD ports tree. No one > is forcing you to use them. You're more than free to use the Xorg open > source nv driver. Where I start to lose tolerance in when you tell me I > can't use the nvidia binary drivers either. Or have to jump through > hoops to use them. Now you're infringing on my right to choose. How does "I cannot recommend" become "you tell[ing] me I can't use the nvidia binary drivers"? No one's telling you what to do here, he's telling you what _he_ would do. This is America, he has that right. -p. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/f0139980/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/f0139980/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 17:29:16 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:29:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <1222793638.4198.1276778569@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1222793638.4198.1276778569@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Isaac Atilano wrote: > "Proprietary software is evil because it attacks freedom and social > solidarity." > > --Transcript of Richard Stallman at the 5th international GPLv3 > conference; 21st November 2006 Ding, ding, ding. You win! ;-) Thanks, Isaac. Reading a little more from this quote, I think he is being irrational. The exact same argument could apply to copying any digital media -- DVD movies, audio CDs, etc. Does he think it is evil to sell movies on DVD? I don't agree with him. If people couldn't sell their movies, they wouldn't make them. It isn't like that with software, as we can see. A movie might cost $10 million to make and some movies cost more than $100 million. If it were unethical to sell DVDs, they'd show the films in theaters only and they would not print DVDs, but wouldn't we all lose then? Mike From max at bernsteinforpresident.com Tue Sep 30 17:25:28 2008 From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:25:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: <200809140803.19443.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> References: <200809140803.19443.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> Message-ID: <200809301725.28451.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> > > > I'm looking for the same thing as you, and I think I am going to go > > > with www.thepetitionsite.com. It just looks like the most established > > > and most powerful of the available sites. > > > > Yes, that does look like it has handled a lot of petitions and a lot of > > signatures. In what sense is it powerful? > > I did end up going with this, and it (so far) has done everything I need. > It has kept all of my info confidential as a signer. By default, it allows > people to email you regarding your petition via a link on the petition > page. You can turn this off in your preferences. I has fit all of my > needs. Are there any features in particular that you are looking for? > After all of the dust settled, I would never go with www.thepetitionsite.com again. At a certain time, it became necessary to email everyone who signed the petition. There did not appear to be any way of doing this. After contacting technical support, I was told that the only way to do this is to close the petition and enter a custom closing message. I ended up prematurely closing the petition for this need. Very frustrating... At first the information privacy seemed like a really great thing. The actual printable petition was great too, and so was the ability to allow signers to contact you. The ability to do a mass mail is so important, though, and I didn't think to look for that before I chose a service. I'm sure you've started your petition by now. For future reference, anyone in need of a petition should look elsewhere. From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 17:35:25 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:35:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Isaac Atilano wrote: > On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:38:15 -0500 (CDT), "Mike Miller" said: > >> easily be wrong though. Also, I wouldn't take the word "evil" too >> seriously because it is often used as a loose shorthand for "something >> that isn't good for us." > > RMS is definitely not known for using words loosely. Case in point: > http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.html Sure, that's basically a legal document. But "evil" -- he doesn't define that word on that page. >> I think he has found that taking an extreme position is necessary for >> him if he's going to make progress in getting people to be like you and >> me. > > I disagree with that opinion. I think extremism turns people off. I know what you mean and I agree with your idea, but the "extreme position" has two aspects. One is his personal conduct -- he will not use any proprietary software and he seems to get by just fine -- that might be working for him. The other is his public statements. Yes, both of these can turn people off, but he also needs to attract attention to what he is doing and I think it is working for him in that way. Some people will see what he is doing and will say "not for me!" but they would also not be converts if they had never heard of his "free software" ideas. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 17:44:13 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:44:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Josh Paetzel wrote: > Mike Miller wrote: > >> Taking that analogy a step farther -- Suppose you had a friend who >> wanted to promote vegetarian food, and your friend owned a restaurant. >> You went to your friend's restaurant and saw that he had steak on the >> menu. So you told your friend, "I'm sorry that I cannot recommend your >> restaurant to people because I am trying to promote vegetarianism and >> your menu has steak on it!" Your friend thinks it is important to give >> people options. So you continue -- "Look, I don't mind if you serve >> steak, just take it off of the menu so that most people will order >> veggie dishes." >> >> In the analogy, the restaurant is FreeBSD, the menu is the ports >> system, the steak is a proprietary program and the veggie dishes are >> FOSS programs. > > > What if he had vegetarian dishes on the menu as well as steak? That's what I meant -- both were on the menu. > And believed in giving people the power to choose? You can get a > vegetarian meal here....or you can get a steak. Pick what you want. But they are trying to promote vegetarianism and they don't want pepole to choose meat. Why should they put meat on the menu? > If the vegetarian can't recommend the restaurant then, does he not then > stand in the position of wanting to limit other people's choices? He has meat available and will serve it to people who request it, but he just isn't putting it on the menu. > Sure, the nvidia binary drivers are in the FreeBSD ports tree. No one > is forcing you to use them. You're more than free to use the Xorg open > source nv driver. Where I start to lose tolerance in when you tell me I > can't use the nvidia binary drivers either. Or have to jump through > hoops to use them. Now you're infringing on my right to choose. He is saying that you can use them, but they shouldn't be listed in the ports tree. Maybe that means you have to "jump through hoops" but what he really wants is for free software options to be readily available to you so that you don't have to jump through hoops. By making it just a little bit harder to get the proprietary program, he is encouraging development of free software replacements. > I also have to point out that you seem to consider yourself the only > person who can decide what RMS means when he says things. Anyone else > is demanded to provide "proof" I wasn't demanding proof of what he meant, just proof of what he said. His meaning is always somewhat open to debate, as is the meaning of anything that anyone says. I think I understood what he meant about the FreeBSD ports, but if someone thinks I have it wrong, I'm listening. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 17:46:24 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:46:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Sunny wrote: > Btw, I do not know where from FreeBSD get involved, as the orig. post > was about OpenBSD. Sorry for using it in my prev. posts. Sorry. Just s/FreeBSD/OpenBSD/g in my messages too. Mike From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 17:58:31 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 17:58:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <200809301542.51223.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> References: <1222795665.10879.1276778871@webmail.messagingengine.com> <200809301542.51223.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Max Shinn wrote: >>> I think he has found that taking an extreme position is necessary for >>> him if he's going to make progress in getting people to be like you >>> and me. >> >> I disagree with that opinion. I think extremism turns people off. > > It depends on the situation. RMS wants people to realize the importance > of Free Software. For this, extremism is necessary. He is trying to > set a good example. If the leader of the Free Software Movement said > "I'm only going to use Free Software when it is practical", no one would > bother looking into the importance. Actions speak louder than words, > especially here. When people see how devoted Stallman is to this cause, > they look into it and see why it is so important to him. This is > exactly what he wants. All good points. That's what I was trying to say too, but you did a better job of it. > In some cases, though, it hurts more than it helps. Read "Why schools > should exclusively use free software" > (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/schools.html) for an example of this. > If you try to convince someone in a situation like this, it is important > to make them believe you only care about the practical benefits. For me, the most important benefit of teaching students to use free software is that I am preparing them for the future. Regarding grad students using statistical software: We mostly teach students to use SAS and we don't teach them as much to use R. R is an amazing Free Software program distributed under the GPL and it has really taken over among the professional, academic statisticians. SAS is being used today mostly because it used to be used before -- it is vendor lock-in coupled with the fact that it does an adequate job on certain tasks that we often need to do in our research. A few years ago I wanted to put SAS on a Linux box and SAS Inc. wanted $3,800.00 in the first year. That was the University Discount -- the regular price was $19,000.00 for the first year. R costs $0 every year! Also, R is vastly superior in some ways. Judging from the rate of development, the future for R is extremely bright. It will be unstoppable. Will we drop SAS and start teaching R? I'd do it but most people will prefer to retire than to change their data management and analysis systems that much, then rewrite their course handouts, slides, lecture notes, etc. I understand that, but the students lose in a big way (but if we don't tell them, they won't know). Another big thing is to transition from VMS to UNIX/Linux. People who have been on VMS for 20 years don't want to change. They don't want to learn Linux unless they have to. So students have to learn SAS on VMS instead of R on Linux. They don't have VMS at home, they won't have VMS at their next employer, etc., etc. You get the idea. Mike From florin at iucha.net Tue Sep 30 18:00:27 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:00:27 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1222793638.4198.1276778569@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20080930230027.GV3139@iris.iucha.org> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 05:29:16PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > Reading a little more from this quote, I think he is being irrational. > The exact same argument could apply to copying any digital media -- DVD > movies, audio CDs, etc. Does he think it is evil to sell movies on DVD? Not necessarily. It is evil to sell movies scrambled with CSS just for the purpose of: * forcing you to sit through commercials for movies that were released five years ago * not allowing you to back up the cartoons DVDs, thus having to rebuy the same media over and over once it gets scratched * splitting the distribution areas in regions, so that people who understand foreign languages and might appreciate foreign shows need to buy more players or players "illegally" modified to play media encoded for multiple regions * forcing you to connect your hardware to the Internet so that it can download new keys and upload your viewing habits to the overlords > I don't agree with him. If people couldn't sell their movies, they > wouldn't make them. Youtube has millions of homemade movies distributed without a profit motive. (Yes, I know about the other 66% of the clips). > It isn't like that with software, as we can see. A > movie might cost $10 million to make and some movies cost more than $100 > million. If it were unethical to sell DVDs, they'd show the films in > theaters only and they would not print DVDs, but wouldn't we all lose > then? Not necessarily. There would be fewer crappy movies since the studios won't rely on the buzz to get all the money in the first two week-ends, before the movie goers wise up. We'll need to go out more and meet other people. (Yes, I know the movie theaters are dirty and invaded by teenagers with cell-phones, but maybe we work a little and do something about that). Maybe we'll watch less TV and read more, or go walking in the park or engage in civic responsibilities instead of spending more than half of our non-sleeping non-working time staring at junk programming. Kumbaya... florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/0ff14c47/attachment.pgp From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 18:07:47 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:07:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: <200809301725.28451.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> References: <200809140803.19443.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> <200809301725.28451.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Max Shinn wrote: > After all of the dust settled, I would never go with > www.thepetitionsite.com again. At a certain time, it became necessary > to email everyone who signed the petition. There did not appear to be > any way of doing this. After contacting technical support, I was told > that the only way to do this is to close the petition and enter a custom > closing message. I ended up prematurely closing the petition for this > need. Very frustrating... At first the information privacy seemed like > a really great thing. The actual printable petition was great too, and > so was the ability to allow signers to contact you. The ability to do a > mass mail is so important, though, and I didn't think to look for that > before I chose a service. I'm sure you've started your petition by now. > For future reference, anyone in need of a petition should look > elsewhere. Strange coincidence: I was going to try to do it today and had forgotten until your message came in! Are you saying that the petitioner cannot see the email addresses? I'm OK with a system that has no automatic way of sending email to the signatories but I do need to be able to copy or download the list of email addresses if I'm going to contact them. But if I don't go to thepetitionsite.com, where should I go? Mike From aristophrenic at warpmail.net Tue Sep 30 18:40:09 2008 From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:40:09 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: References: <48DDC2DD.7060707@beitsahour.net> <48E0D493.3060104@tcbug.org> <02eb01c92266$8500f1d0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <035e01c92284$d2f1f6f0$a000010a@usicorp.usinternet.com> <38aa5b6a0809292039l464b0ca9v646bf6d768c84ca2@mail.gmail.com> <48E1AD7E.6020509@tcbug.org> <1222782265.27672.1276736823@webmail.messagingengine.com> <1222793638.4198.1276778569@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1222818009.26440.1276840983@webmail.messagingengine.com> > The exact same argument could apply to copying any digital media -- DVD > movies, audio CDs, etc. Does he think it is evil to sell movies on DVD? > I don't agree with him. If people couldn't sell their movies, they > wouldn't make them. It isn't like that with software, as we can see. A > movie might cost $10 million to make and some movies cost more than $100 > million. If it were unethical to sell DVDs, they'd show the films in > theaters only and they would not print DVDs, but wouldn't we all lose > then? I think you're on track and yes, he does think that, at least when there is DRM involved. I remember someone asking him about DVD's in an interview although I can't provide the reference. Now for the opinion piece: As for the whole multimedia and DRM aspect, I don't think the MPAA and the studios are thinking about ethics as much as their profit margins. The MPAA and studios enact the commercialization of art and apply the business models used to market it as goods. The use of technology to make this happen is what brings us to its practical applications in the realm of information exchange and the rights of consumers as pertains to the goods which they purchase. I think much of the debate between pro and anti DRM and proprietary formats people is caused by the failure of society to fundamentally understand the relationship between goods and information. We see the affect of this when companies attempt to impose a business model, which deals with goods and services, to information which is really what is stored on on your hard disks, dvd's, cd's, etc; the affect being the conflict between those two groups. From max at bernsteinforpresident.com Tue Sep 30 18:33:44 2008 From: max at bernsteinforpresident.com (Max Shinn) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:33:44 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] petition sites In-Reply-To: References: <200809301725.28451.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> Message-ID: <200809301833.45148.max@bernsteinforpresident.com> > Are you saying that the petitioner cannot see the email addresses? I'm OK > with a system that has no automatic way of sending email to the > signatories but I do need to be able to copy or download the list of email > addresses if I'm going to contact them. > Yes, it is very annoying. Another quirk with it: address and phone number are required when signing, in addition to name, email, location, etc. I just assumed they would end up on the petition. I thought this would be a good thing, because it would give the person the petition was presented to contact information to contact the signers. Only "name" and "comment" appeared on the printed petition. > But if I don't go to thepetitionsite.com, where should I go? > I'm not quite sure. I would assume every site has some issues with it. Whatever site you do end up going with, make sure to keep us informed on how it worked for you. You also might want to try finding a script and hosting it yourself. See if there is anything on hotscripts. From josh at tcbug.org Tue Sep 30 18:56:23 2008 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 18:56:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <200809301651.08296.teeahr1@gmail.com> References: <48E288B9.3070906@tcbug.org> <200809301651.08296.teeahr1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48E2BCA7.9060501@tcbug.org> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 p.daniels wrote: > On Tuesday September 30 2008 15:14:49 Josh Paetzel wrote: > *snip* >> If the vegetarian can't recommend the restaurant then, does he not then >> stand in the position of wanting to limit other people's choices? > > No, it puts him in the position of not wanting to recommend it. Are you > serious? > But his position isn't "not wanting to recommend it" His position is "This is wrong and you shouldn't eat it because it is bad for all of us if you do" >> Sure, the nvidia binary drivers are in the FreeBSD ports tree. No one >> is forcing you to use them. You're more than free to use the Xorg open >> source nv driver. Where I start to lose tolerance in when you tell me I >> can't use the nvidia binary drivers either. Or have to jump through >> hoops to use them. Now you're infringing on my right to choose. > > How does "I cannot recommend" become "you tell[ing] me I can't use the nvidia > binary drivers"? No one's telling you what to do here, he's telling you what > _he_ would do. This is America, he has that right. > > -p. > No, his message is very clear. Proprietary closed source software is wrong, and bad for all computer users. Thankfully I live in America and have the right to ignore him. - -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel PGP: 8A48 EF36 5E9F 4EDA 5ABC 11B4 26F9 01F1 27AF AECB -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) iD8DBQFI4rynJvkB8SevrssRAh9nAJ9X+JNPG2zjlHKFNfRF+UopysLpqACeIJhC tMnR9QsCWuI6fLXb+ZYHMFI= =rZUk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu Tue Sep 30 19:51:44 2008 From: mbmiller at taxa.epi.umn.edu (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 19:51:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros Message-ID: Which Linux distros are true 64-bit OSs? If I buy a PC with a couple of X5460 chips... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon#5400-series_.22Harpertown.22 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Xeon_microprocessors#.22Harpertown.22_.28standard-voltage.2C_45_nm.29 ...which Linux distros will have 64-bit packages ready to run on that architecture making full use of the available memory (e.g., 16 GB RAM)? Mike From airchia at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 20:13:00 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:13:00 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source Message-ID: Hi, How do you re-build apps from source? I have heard that any software can run perfectly on Linux if you re-build it. How do I do this? Especially if it is closed-source software. I would like to re-build Lightwave 3D to run on Linux. (Actually, I have a number of graphics applications I use that I would like to re-build on Linux.) I have used Linux a lot, but am still very much a noob when it comes to the CLI and code. If someone could walk me through this (as in, baby steps) I would really appreciate it. I'll worship the open-source ground you walk on! ; ) Thank you in advance, Nick -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/3a45b64e/attachment.htm From teeahr1 at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 21:08:54 2008 From: teeahr1 at gmail.com (p.daniels) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:08:54 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Richard Stallman Talking on UofM Campus 21 October In-Reply-To: <48E2BCA7.9060501@tcbug.org> References: <200809301651.08296.teeahr1@gmail.com> <48E2BCA7.9060501@tcbug.org> Message-ID: <200809302108.58005.teeahr1@gmail.com> On Tuesday September 30 2008 18:56:23 Josh Paetzel wrote: > p.daniels wrote: > > On Tuesday September 30 2008 15:14:49 Josh Paetzel wrote: > > *snip* > > > >> If the vegetarian can't recommend the restaurant then, does he not then > >> stand in the position of wanting to limit other people's choices? > > > > No, it puts him in the position of not wanting to recommend it. Are you > > serious? > > But his position isn't "not wanting to recommend it" His position is > "This is wrong and you shouldn't eat it because it is bad for all of us > if you do" And he's right. That still doesn't equate to compulsion. No one is telling you what you can or cannot do. > > >> Sure, the nvidia binary drivers are in the FreeBSD ports tree. No one > >> is forcing you to use them. You're more than free to use the Xorg open > >> source nv driver. Where I start to lose tolerance in when you tell me I > >> can't use the nvidia binary drivers either. Or have to jump through > >> hoops to use them. Now you're infringing on my right to choose. > > > > How does "I cannot recommend" become "you tell[ing] me I can't use the > > nvidia binary drivers"? No one's telling you what to do here, he's > > telling you what _he_ would do. This is America, he has that right. > > > > -p. > > No, his message is very clear. Proprietary closed source software is > wrong, and bad for all computer users. Thankfully I live in America and > have the right to ignore him. See my above rebuttal. -p. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/97bd5fb7/attachment.htm -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part. Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/97bd5fb7/attachment.pgp From johntrammell at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 21:52:50 2008 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 21:52:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote: > How do you re-build apps from source? I have heard that any software can run > perfectly on Linux if you re-build it. Heard where? Just curious. JT From airchia at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 22:23:28 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:23:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Can't remember exactly. It was a couple years ago. I read it a few times when researching Linux. Is this a myth? Is it possible to do? Nick On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 9:52 PM, John Trammell wrote: > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > How do you re-build apps from source? I have heard that any software can > run > > perfectly on Linux if you re-build it. > > Heard where? Just curious. > > JT > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/e45da0ca/attachment-0001.htm From florin at iucha.net Tue Sep 30 22:42:06 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:42:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] 64-bit Linux distros In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20081001034206.GX3139@iris.iucha.org> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 07:51:44PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: > Which Linux distros are true 64-bit OSs? If I buy a PC with a couple of > X5460 chips... > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xeon#5400-series_.22Harpertown.22 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Xeon_microprocessors#.22Harpertown.22_.28standard-voltage.2C_45_nm.29 > > ...which Linux distros will have 64-bit packages ready to run on that > architecture making full use of the available memory (e.g., 16 GB RAM)? All the major Linux distributions have 64-bit kernel/binaries: Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora, Centos Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/b91ffccf/attachment.pgp From florin at iucha.net Tue Sep 30 22:53:47 2008 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:53:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20081001035347.GY3139@iris.iucha.org> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:23:28PM -0500, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Can't remember exactly. It was a couple years ago. I read it a few times > when researching Linux. Is this a myth? Is it possible to do? If you are a n00b, then rebuilding from source should not concern you. It's right up there with rebuilding the engine and transmission of a car. "Closed source" means exactly that, that you don't have access to the source, outside of the owners of the software. And lastly, there does not appear to be a version of Lightwave for Linux. Getting the Windows/MacOS code to run on Linux is equivalent to moving the transmission and engine between two different kind of vehicles. To stop milking of the car analogy, you can think of submarines and fighter jets. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/5be3d962/attachment.pgp From johntrammell at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 22:58:47 2008 From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 22:58:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <68dbb6fe0809302058j39e62211k59b87e6458525de2@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Can't remember exactly. It was a couple years ago. I read it a few times > when researching Linux. Is this a myth? Is it possible to do? > Nick If I understand your question correctly, I'd say it's about 99.44% myth. Sorry. From airchia at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 23:11:47 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:11:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: <20081001035347.GY3139@iris.iucha.org> References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> <20081001035347.GY3139@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: Okay, well, setting noob aside. What would it take to get Lightwave for Windows code running stably on Linux? I understand that this isn't going to happen anytime soon. But if you say, "you need to know C programming, and such and such," then I can start studying what I need, and I have a goal in mind. (A goal I've had to some years and now have some direction on how to achieve it.) To be able to run all my apps on a Linux 64bit system, and not have to deal with Windows at all anymore would be a dream! Die, evil bastard OS monster! Die! *Sniff* Haven't you ever had a dream? A dream so big you just couldn't contain it? Well, you must believe, my son! You must believe! /cheesy-whatever the hell that was ; ) C'mon! Throw me a bone! Nick On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:53 PM, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:23:28PM -0500, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > Can't remember exactly. It was a couple years ago. I read it a few times > > when researching Linux. Is this a myth? Is it possible to do? > > If you are a n00b, then rebuilding from source should not concern you. > It's right up there with rebuilding the engine and transmission of a > car. > > "Closed source" means exactly that, that you don't have access to the > source, outside of the owners of the software. > > And lastly, there does not appear to be a version of Lightwave for > Linux. Getting the Windows/MacOS code to run on Linux is equivalent > to moving the transmission and engine between two different kind of > vehicles. To stop milking of the car analogy, you can think of > submarines and fighter jets. > > Cheers, > florin > > -- > Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. > http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/8c01508c/attachment.htm From airchia at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 23:13:51 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:13:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe0809302058j39e62211k59b87e6458525de2@mail.gmail.com> References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> <68dbb6fe0809302058j39e62211k59b87e6458525de2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Thanks. You've crushed my hope and ambitions and I know wade through a thick sludge of bitter anguish. Wait a minute. You said "99.44% myth." That's . . . . .66% not-myth. So you're sayin' there's a chance! On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:58 PM, John Trammell wrote: > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:23 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > Can't remember exactly. It was a couple years ago. I read it a few times > > when researching Linux. Is this a myth? Is it possible to do? > > Nick > > If I understand your question correctly, I'd say it's about 99.44% myth. > Sorry. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/e3f40c5d/attachment.htm From ecrist at secure-computing.net Tue Sep 30 23:16:36 2008 From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:16:36 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net> On Sep 30, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Hi, > > How do you re-build apps from source? I have heard that any software > can run perfectly on Linux if you re-build it. How do I do this? > Especially if it is closed-source software. I would like to re-build > Lightwave 3D to run on Linux. (Actually, I have a number of graphics > applications I use that I would like to re-build on Linux.) > > I have used Linux a lot, but am still very much a noob when it comes > to the CLI and code. If someone could walk me through this (as in, > baby steps) I would really appreciate it. I'll worship the open- > source ground you walk on! ; ) Many applications can be built natively on Linux with little, or no, modification. In most cases, there is no reason to 'rebuild' an application. Packaged binaries generally make use of needed features within the kernel and system. Most people do not need to rebuild a program from source. This is a deep hole... Don't dive in until you *need* to, and are ready. --- Eric Crist From markdeb.browne at comcast.net Tue Sep 30 23:22:25 2008 From: markdeb.browne at comcast.net (Mark Browne) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:22:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com><20081001035347.GY3139@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: <676D4E1F175541E1AB910EF66D71C586@AMD64> Nick, Getting a big app to run on a different platform requires expert level skill. I am willing to say that by the time you gained that skill you would be able to write the application yourself and make a tool even better suited to your needs. Might I recomed instead that you look at the numberios grapics tools available and see if some of them suit you needs - just as written now. Blender, povray, GIMP, ... I am sure that other memebers of the list may be able to recomend a close functional match to lightwave. Mark Browne Top-posted - because I'm lazy! _____ From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Nick Scholtes Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2008 11:12 PM To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source Okay, well, setting noob aside. What would it take to get Lightwave for Windows code running stably on Linux? I understand that this isn't going to happen anytime soon. But if you say, "you need to know C programming, and such and such," then I can start studying what I need, and I have a goal in mind. (A goal I've had to some years and now have some direction on how to achieve it.) To be able to run all my apps on a Linux 64bit system, and not have to deal with Windows at all anymore would be a dream! Die, evil bastard OS monster! Die! *Sniff* Haven't you ever had a dream? A dream so big you just couldn't contain it? Well, you must believe, my son! You must believe! /cheesy-whatever the hell that was ; ) C'mon! Throw me a bone! Nick On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:53 PM, Florin Iucha wrote: On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:23:28PM -0500, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Can't remember exactly. It was a couple years ago. I read it a few times > when researching Linux. Is this a myth? Is it possible to do? If you are a n00b, then rebuilding from source should not concern you. It's right up there with rebuilding the engine and transmission of a car. "Closed source" means exactly that, that you don't have access to the source, outside of the owners of the software. And lastly, there does not appear to be a version of Lightwave for Linux. Getting the Windows/MacOS code to run on Linux is equivalent to moving the transmission and engine between two different kind of vehicles. To stop milking of the car analogy, you can think of submarines and fighter jets. Cheers, florin -- Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/5d79a3bc/attachment-0001.htm From erikerik at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 23:24:58 2008 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:24:58 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> <20081001035347.GY3139@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: Unless I'm mistaken, Lightwave is a closed-source application. How are you planning on getting your hands on the source? On 9/30/08, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Okay, well, setting noob aside. What would it take to get Lightwave for > Windows code running stably on Linux? I understand that this isn't going to > happen anytime soon. But if you say, "you need to know C programming, and > such and such," then I can start studying what I need, and I have a goal in > mind. (A goal I've had to some years and now have some direction on how to > achieve it.) To be able to run all my apps on a Linux 64bit system, and not > have to deal with Windows at all anymore would be a dream! Die, evil bastard > OS monster! Die! > > *Sniff* Haven't you ever had a dream? A dream so big you just couldn't > contain it? Well, you must believe, my son! You must believe! > /cheesy-whatever the hell that was ; ) > > C'mon! Throw me a bone! > Nick > > > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:53 PM, Florin Iucha wrote: > >> On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:23:28PM -0500, Nick Scholtes wrote: >> > Can't remember exactly. It was a couple years ago. I read it a few times >> > when researching Linux. Is this a myth? Is it possible to do? >> >> If you are a n00b, then rebuilding from source should not concern you. >> It's right up there with rebuilding the engine and transmission of a >> car. >> >> "Closed source" means exactly that, that you don't have access to the >> source, outside of the owners of the software. >> >> And lastly, there does not appear to be a version of Lightwave for >> Linux. Getting the Windows/MacOS code to run on Linux is equivalent >> to moving the transmission and engine between two different kind of >> vehicles. To stop milking of the car analogy, you can think of >> submarines and fighter jets. >> >> Cheers, >> florin >> >> -- >> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition. >> http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> > > > -- > Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom > -- Erik Anderson http://andersonfam.org From tclug at freakzilla.com Tue Sep 30 23:23:30 2008 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:23:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> <20081001035347.GY3139@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Okay, well, setting noob aside. What would it take to get Lightwave for > Windows code running stably on Linux? See, the biggest issue you'd have with that is getting the source code for Lightwave. It is TECHNICALLY possible to port any code over to any OS (within reason, of course). You'd have to know the language it was written in REALLY well, and you'd have to know both source and target operating systems REALLY well, and you'd need to know how to interact with both using the programming language REALLY well. For a big app like Lightwave you'd probably need a TEAM of people. Now, small open-source FREE SOFTWARE apps, not a problem. You download the source, look at it, hopefully there's a reasonably similar programming language and API, and you get going. Large corporations are NOT going to give you their source code. It's as simple as that. Licensing issues, IP issues, patent issues, plus they just don't care. If you want to run Windows apps on Linux, try using WINE.That might actually work! -Yaron -- From airchia at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 23:30:52 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:30:52 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: <7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net> References: <7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: Hi Eric, Maybe I misunderstood the whole "rebuild" thing. You said: Could you explain this more? Maybe this is what I was thinking of. Nick On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Eric F Crist wrote: > On Sep 30, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > Hi, >> >> How do you re-build apps from source? I have heard that any software can >> run perfectly on Linux if you re-build it. How do I do this? Especially if >> it is closed-source software. I would like to re-build Lightwave 3D to run >> on Linux. (Actually, I have a number of graphics applications I use that I >> would like to re-build on Linux.) >> >> I have used Linux a lot, but am still very much a noob when it comes to >> the CLI and code. If someone could walk me through this (as in, baby steps) >> I would really appreciate it. I'll worship the open-source ground you walk >> on! ; ) >> > > > Many applications can be built natively on Linux with little, or no, > modification. In most cases, there is no reason to 'rebuild' an > application. Packaged binaries generally make use of needed features within > the kernel and system. Most people do not need to rebuild a program from > source. > > This is a deep hole... Don't dive in until you *need* to, and are ready. > --- > Eric Crist > > > > > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/5f347b96/attachment.htm From erikerik at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 23:40:03 2008 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:40:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: As many have said, you'll need to get access to the source code to even think about doing this. In youe case this is all but impossible unfortunately. On 9/30/08, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Hi Eric, > > Maybe I misunderstood the whole "rebuild" thing. You said: > modification. In most cases, there is no reason to 'rebuild' an > application.> > > Could you explain this more? Maybe this is what I was thinking of. > > Nick > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:16 PM, Eric F Crist > wrote: > >> On Sep 30, 2008, at 8:13 PM, Nick Scholtes wrote: >> >> Hi, >>> >>> How do you re-build apps from source? I have heard that any software can >>> run perfectly on Linux if you re-build it. How do I do this? Especially >>> if >>> it is closed-source software. I would like to re-build Lightwave 3D to >>> run >>> on Linux. (Actually, I have a number of graphics applications I use that >>> I >>> would like to re-build on Linux.) >>> >>> I have used Linux a lot, but am still very much a noob when it comes to >>> the CLI and code. If someone could walk me through this (as in, baby >>> steps) >>> I would really appreciate it. I'll worship the open-source ground you >>> walk >>> on! ; ) >>> >> >> >> Many applications can be built natively on Linux with little, or no, >> modification. In most cases, there is no reason to 'rebuild' an >> application. Packaged binaries generally make use of needed features >> within >> the kernel and system. Most people do not need to rebuild a program from >> source. >> >> This is a deep hole... Don't dive in until you *need* to, and are ready. >> --- >> Eric Crist >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom > -- Erik Anderson http://andersonfam.org From tclug at freakzilla.com Tue Sep 30 23:41:41 2008 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:41:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > Could you explain this more? Maybe this is what I was thinking of. Like Firefox. You can rebuild that on Linux pretty easily. It's pretty much written with portability in mind, though. But like Eric pointed out, it'd be kinda silly to rebuild that unless you had a really good reason, since your distribution already did it for you. That's really what Linux distributions are for - a convenient way to package programs so they all interct well together. -Yaron -- From airchia at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 23:42:57 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:42:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <68dbb6fe0809301952p3d3c8494v454bc5b07a10fee9@mail.gmail.com> <20081001035347.GY3139@iris.iucha.org> Message-ID: Ahh. Okay, I see. Rrr. I hate it when reality gets in the way! But thank you all for your help and advice. I appreciate it. I'll look into WINE and Codeweavers. I think they had some software that ran a number of common windows apps on Linux. Nick On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Yaron wrote: > On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > > Okay, well, setting noob aside. What would it take to get Lightwave for > > Windows code running stably on Linux? > > See, the biggest issue you'd have with that is getting the source code for > Lightwave. > > It is TECHNICALLY possible to port any code over to any OS (within reason, > of course). You'd have to know the language it was written in REALLY well, > and you'd have to know both source and target operating systems REALLY > well, and you'd need to know how to interact with both using the > programming language REALLY well. > > For a big app like Lightwave you'd probably need a TEAM of people. > > > Now, small open-source FREE SOFTWARE apps, not a problem. You download the > source, look at it, hopefully there's a reasonably similar programming > language and API, and you get going. > > > Large corporations are NOT going to give you their source code. It's as > simple as that. Licensing issues, IP issues, patent issues, plus they just > don't care. > > > If you want to run Windows apps on Linux, try using WINE.That might > actually work! > > > -Yaron > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/b8437960/attachment.htm From airchia at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 23:50:01 2008 From: airchia at gmail.com (Nick Scholtes) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 23:50:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Re-building Apps from Source In-Reply-To: References: <7F5614C6-3EFF-4352-B181-9E3BAAF3179A@secure-computing.net> Message-ID: Makes sense. Yeah, I know Maya and Softimage XSI have Linux versions, but digital nature scenery apps like Vue don't. Couldn't give that one up. We'll see. Maybe I'll specialize in Maya or XSI and eventually port everything to Linux. I agree with the Firefox assessment. I was only looking at doing it with apps not native to Linux. Oh well. Nick On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 11:41 PM, Yaron wrote: > On Tue, 30 Sep 2008, Nick Scholtes wrote: > > > Could you explain this more? Maybe this is what I was thinking of. > > Like Firefox. You can rebuild that on Linux pretty easily. It's pretty > much written with portability in mind, though. > > But like Eric pointed out, it'd be kinda silly to rebuild that unless you > had a really good reason, since your distribution already did it for you. > > > That's really what Linux distributions are for - a convenient way to > package programs so they all interct well together. > > > -Yaron > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Art: http://www.coroflot.com/bellsoffreedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20080930/a25f9f33/attachment-0001.htm