From admin at lctn.org  Thu Jun  3 15:27:54 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 15:27:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Show n Tell
Message-ID: <4C08104A.7080502@lctn.org>

Thank you for those who gave me a helping hand on my wireless 
authentication project. I just got things working

WPA + Freeradius + LDAP




From kc0iog at gmail.com  Thu Jun  3 21:45:53 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 21:45:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Show n Tell
In-Reply-To: <4C08104A.7080502@lctn.org>
References: <4C08104A.7080502@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimuVl1aHhNvjkDi3TUSNpMADTfyKFVbC75RWSQL@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 3:27 PM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
> Thank you for those who gave me a helping hand on my wireless
> authentication project. I just got things working
>
> WPA + Freeradius + LDAP

Sounds like a fun project.  What are you using for your LDAP server?

Brian


From loren.cahlander at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 10:45:17 2010
From: loren.cahlander at gmail.com (Loren Cahlander)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 10:45:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP meeting
Message-ID: <5E8AC7C3-0BE8-4C15-B6F7-F6ADDA7C2319@gmail.com>

Hello,

Does anyone want to schedule a meeting to discuss LDAP?  I have gotten through my problems, but I think that LDAP needs a clear and concise guide to getting started with LDAP.  I think that we should meet and discuss what problems we have encountered and the solutions that we have come up with.  Also for those of us who have gone through the pain to help those that are still struggling.

Cheers,

Loren



From jpschewe at mtu.net  Fri Jun  4 11:07:07 2010
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:07:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
Message-ID: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>

Anyone used one of these? What do you think? Anyone know where I could
get my hands on one to try it?

-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.



From admin at lctn.org  Fri Jun  4 11:43:33 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:43:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Show n Tell
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimuVl1aHhNvjkDi3TUSNpMADTfyKFVbC75RWSQL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C08104A.7080502@lctn.org>
	<AANLkTimuVl1aHhNvjkDi3TUSNpMADTfyKFVbC75RWSQL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C092D35.7030704@lctn.org>

Sounds like a fun project. What are you using for your LDAP server?
> Brian
>
>
>    

openldap on Ubuntu


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Jun  4 11:48:18 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:48:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP meeting
In-Reply-To: <5E8AC7C3-0BE8-4C15-B6F7-F6ADDA7C2319@gmail.com>
References: <5E8AC7C3-0BE8-4C15-B6F7-F6ADDA7C2319@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C092E52.2080601@Goecke-Dolan.com>


If you want to come talk, you can have the next penguins unbound 
meeting, june 26th.

==>brian.

Loren Cahlander wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Does anyone want to schedule a meeting to discuss LDAP?  I have gotten through my problems, but I think that LDAP needs a clear and concise guide to getting started with LDAP.  I think that we should meet and discuss what problems we have encountered and the solutions that we have come up with.  Also for those of us who have gone through the pain to help those that are still struggling.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Loren
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From admin at lctn.org  Fri Jun  4 11:44:30 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 11:44:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP meeting
In-Reply-To: <5E8AC7C3-0BE8-4C15-B6F7-F6ADDA7C2319@gmail.com>
References: <5E8AC7C3-0BE8-4C15-B6F7-F6ADDA7C2319@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C092D6E.3070308@lctn.org>

 > I think that we should meet and discuss what problems we have 
encountered and the solutions that we have >come up with. Also for those 
of us who have gone through the pain to help those that are still 
struggling.


Maybe start our own knowledge-base or wiki???


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  4 12:27:51 2010
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 12:27:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <1275672471.2064.21.camel@robert-desktop>

cnet reviews
Archos 5 Internet tablet with Android (16GB
Best Buy $299.99
3 stars

Product summary 
The good: The Archos 5 Internet tablet/portable media player offers a
large, high-resolution touch-screen display, Wi-Fi, music playback,
photos, Flash video and game compatibility, Bluetooth, e-mail, a Web
browser, a built-in speaker, an integrated kickstand, GPS, and support
for a limited selection of Android applications.

The bad: GPS signal reception is poor enough to make the feature
useless; many popular Android apps are unsupported; Flash video support
is hit or miss; no multitouch support for keyboard or gestures; text
copy and paste is a chore; and the glossy design shows fingerprints.

The bottom line: The Archos 5 is a great video player, but it
disappoints as a premium Android Internet tablet and GPS unit.





On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 11:07 -0500, Jon Schewe wrote:
> Archos Internet Tablet



From dan at dburkland.com  Fri Jun  4 12:18:45 2010
From: dan at dburkland.com (Dan Burkland)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 12:18:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP meeting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1275670803.25555.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1275670803.25555.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <3EFA8713-8D05-449C-85C7-3AEC801822DC@dburkland.com>

In regards to the wiki idea, I have a few how-tos that I'd be happy to  
submit. Perhaps we could create a Wiki on the tc-lug site?

Dan

Sent from my iPhone


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Jun  4 13:19:00 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:19:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP meeting
In-Reply-To: <3EFA8713-8D05-449C-85C7-3AEC801822DC@dburkland.com>
References: <mailman.1.1275670803.25555.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<3EFA8713-8D05-449C-85C7-3AEC801822DC@dburkland.com>
Message-ID: <4C094394.3020707@Goecke-Dolan.com>

There is a wiki at the Penguins Unbound (www.penguinsunbound.com) site. 
  And I would be happy to create account for anyone what wanted to add 
content.

==>brian.

Dan Burkland wrote:
> In regards to the wiki idea, I have a few how-tos that I'd be happy to  
> submit. Perhaps we could create a Wiki on the tc-lug site?
> 
> Dan
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jpschewe at mtu.net  Fri Jun  4 13:36:07 2010
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 13:36:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <1275672471.2064.21.camel@robert-desktop>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
	<1275672471.2064.21.camel@robert-desktop>
Message-ID: <4C094797.3010401@mtu.net>

Yes, I've seen that review. Wondering if someone actually has one or
knows where to find one to play with. Best Buy doesn't seem to have any
in stock according to their website.

Do you have suggestions for another android device that is similar in
size and isn't a phone?

On 6/4/10 12:27 PM, Robert wrote:
> cnet reviews
> Archos 5 Internet tablet with Android (16GB
> Best Buy $299.99
> 3 stars
>
> Product summary 
> The good: The Archos 5 Internet tablet/portable media player offers a
> large, high-resolution touch-screen display, Wi-Fi, music playback,
> photos, Flash video and game compatibility, Bluetooth, e-mail, a Web
> browser, a built-in speaker, an integrated kickstand, GPS, and support
> for a limited selection of Android applications.
>
> The bad: GPS signal reception is poor enough to make the feature
> useless; many popular Android apps are unsupported; Flash video support
> is hit or miss; no multitouch support for keyboard or gestures; text
> copy and paste is a chore; and the glossy design shows fingerprints.
>
> The bottom line: The Archos 5 is a great video player, but it
> disappoints as a premium Android Internet tablet and GPS unit.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 11:07 -0500, Jon Schewe wrote:
>   
>> Archos Internet Tablet
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.



From eric.schultz at mchsi.com  Fri Jun  4 16:16:30 2010
From: eric.schultz at mchsi.com (Eric Schultz)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 16:16:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <4C094797.3010401@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <170282832.1804001275686190542.JavaMail.root@dsmdc-mail-mbs12>

I have read several reviews on the Archos 5 tablet...it is to compete with the ipod touch.  Archos had some quality and control issues yet with it.  I should be better than the touch, because the capabilities, but it has alot of issues with how well it is manufactured.  I would go to newegg.com and just read the posts and responses by users. I want a linux based tablet and will wait until a builder with a reputation gets behind it. 




----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Schewe" <jpschewe at mtu.net>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2010 1:36:07 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet

Yes, I've seen that review. Wondering if someone actually has one or
knows where to find one to play with. Best Buy doesn't seem to have any
in stock according to their website.

Do you have suggestions for another android device that is similar in
size and isn't a phone?

On 6/4/10 12:27 PM, Robert wrote:
> cnet reviews
> Archos 5 Internet tablet with Android (16GB
> Best Buy $299.99
> 3 stars
>
> Product summary 
> The good: The Archos 5 Internet tablet/portable media player offers a
> large, high-resolution touch-screen display, Wi-Fi, music playback,
> photos, Flash video and game compatibility, Bluetooth, e-mail, a Web
> browser, a built-in speaker, an integrated kickstand, GPS, and support
> for a limited selection of Android applications.
>
> The bad: GPS signal reception is poor enough to make the feature
> useless; many popular Android apps are unsupported; Flash video support
> is hit or miss; no multitouch support for keyboard or gestures; text
> copy and paste is a chore; and the glossy design shows fingerprints.
>
> The bottom line: The Archos 5 is a great video player, but it
> disappoints as a premium Android Internet tablet and GPS unit.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 11:07 -0500, Jon Schewe wrote:
>   
>> Archos Internet Tablet
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   

-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From loren.cahlander at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 18:53:16 2010
From: loren.cahlander at gmail.com (Loren Cahlander)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 18:53:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP meeting
In-Reply-To: <4C092E52.2080601@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <5E8AC7C3-0BE8-4C15-B6F7-F6ADDA7C2319@gmail.com>
	<4C092E52.2080601@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <D61BC497-EA5F-4C35-97FE-06C629218A3A@gmail.com>

That works for me.

Loren

On Jun 4, 2010, at 11:48 AM, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:

> 
> If you want to come talk, you can have the next penguins unbound 
> meeting, june 26th.
> 
> ==>brian.
> 
> Loren Cahlander wrote:
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Does anyone want to schedule a meeting to discuss LDAP?  I have gotten through my problems, but I think that LDAP needs a clear and concise guide to getting started with LDAP.  I think that we should meet and discuss what problems we have encountered and the solutions that we have come up with.  Also for those of us who have gone through the pain to help those that are still struggling.
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Loren
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tmarble at info9.net  Fri Jun  4 21:42:11 2010
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 21:42:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>

Jon:
> What do you think?
This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/

HTH,

--Tom


From jpschewe at mtu.net  Fri Jun  4 22:04:10 2010
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:04:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
	<AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C09BEAA.5080104@mtu.net>

On 06/04/2010 09:42 PM, Tom Marble wrote:
> Jon:
>   
>> What do you think?
>>     
> This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/
>
>   
Too big. I'm looking for something the size of my old Palm. That's why
the Archos tablet looks nice.




From jpschewe at mtu.net  Fri Jun  4 22:20:15 2010
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Fri, 04 Jun 2010 22:20:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
	<AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>

On 06/04/2010 09:42 PM, Tom Marble wrote:
> Jon:
>   
>> What do you think?
>>     
> This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/
>
>   
What I'm really looking for is a Palm with WIFI running an OS that's
compatible with Linux. Andriod and Maemo look like good platforms, but I
don't see many devices besides phones.



From jeruvin at gmail.com  Fri Jun  4 22:31:31 2010
From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 22:31:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
	<AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilXc30sUUR8-TjvnpbSuKRsRIc00VoE3jLOKYow@mail.gmail.com>

I'm hoping to be able to play around with one of these in the next couple of
weeks for work, but haven't got one yet. I'm pretty excited about Android
being on some tablets and hope it's a pretty good experience.

Jason

On Fri, Jun 4, 2010 at 10:20 PM, Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:

> On 06/04/2010 09:42 PM, Tom Marble wrote:
> > Jon:
> >
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> > This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/
> >
> >
> What I'm really looking for is a Palm with WIFI running an OS that's
> compatible with Linux. Andriod and Maemo look like good platforms, but I
> don't see many devices besides phones.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
jason
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From eric.schultz at mchsi.com  Fri Jun  4 23:02:06 2010
From: eric.schultz at mchsi.com (Eric Schultz)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 23:02:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <1352204883.1845771275710526301.JavaMail.root@dsmdc-mail-mbs12>

The Palm T|X has Wifi,

I am currently looking at breaking the OS and installing a pure Linux based OS such as Ubuntu...I was hoping that I could install Android, but I have not been able to find where a person was successful.

Have you thought about a PSP, I know of a few people who installed linux on it and it works fine.

Eric 
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Schewe" <jpschewe at mtu.net>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2010 10:20:15 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet

On 06/04/2010 09:42 PM, Tom Marble wrote:
> Jon:
>   
>> What do you think?
>>     
> This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/
>
>   
What I'm really looking for is a Palm with WIFI running an OS that's
compatible with Linux. Andriod and Maemo look like good platforms, but I
don't see many devices besides phones.


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From eric.schultz at mchsi.com  Fri Jun  4 23:05:27 2010
From: eric.schultz at mchsi.com (Eric Schultz)
Date: Fri, 4 Jun 2010 23:05:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <1530044740.1845911275710727216.JavaMail.root@dsmdc-mail-mbs12>


Does anyone know what the Sony personal viewer runs, it states it has over a 1000 free apps, it may be open source.


http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/570827439/sony-dash-personal-internet-viewer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Schewe" <jpschewe at mtu.net>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2010 10:20:15 PM GMT -06:00 US/Canada Central
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet

On 06/04/2010 09:42 PM, Tom Marble wrote:
> Jon:
>   
>> What do you think?
>>     
> This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/
>
>   
What I'm really looking for is a Palm with WIFI running an OS that's
compatible with Linux. Andriod and Maemo look like good platforms, but I
don't see many devices besides phones.


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From pcutler at gnome.org  Sat Jun  5 19:14:24 2010
From: pcutler at gnome.org (Paul Cutler)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 19:14:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>
	<AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <1275783264.6183.1.camel@linux-o4yp.site>

On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 22:20 -0500, Jon Schewe wrote:
> On 06/04/2010 09:42 PM, Tom Marble wrote:
> > Jon:
> >   
> >> What do you think?
> >>     
> > This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/
> >
> >   
> What I'm really looking for is a Palm with WIFI running an OS that's
> compatible with Linux. Andriod and Maemo look like good platforms, but I
> don't see many devices besides phones.
> 
> 

The Dell Streak is coming later this summer to the US (is 5" too big?  I
think that compares to the Archos).

http://en.community.dell.com/dell-blogs/b/direct2dell/archive/2010/05/25/dell-streak-the-versatile-5-inch-android-tablet.aspx

Paul



From jpschewe at mtu.net  Sat Jun  5 19:48:53 2010
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Sat, 05 Jun 2010 19:48:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Archos Internet Tablet
In-Reply-To: <1275783264.6183.1.camel@linux-o4yp.site>
References: <4C0924AB.4080206@mtu.net>	<AANLkTim8LFcpvWk69lS5FnSgTOHftTiidlHlZYKetpBL@mail.gmail.com>	<4C09C26F.5040400@mtu.net>
	<1275783264.6183.1.camel@linux-o4yp.site>
Message-ID: <4C0AF075.7040708@mtu.net>

On 06/05/2010 07:14 PM, Paul Cutler wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 22:20 -0500, Jon Schewe wrote:
>   
>> On 06/04/2010 09:42 PM, Tom Marble wrote:
>>     
>>> Jon:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> What do you think?
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> This Shot is for you: http://shotofjaq.org/2010/06/the-magic-touch/
>>>
>>>   
>>>       
>> What I'm really looking for is a Palm with WIFI running an OS that's
>> compatible with Linux. Andriod and Maemo look like good platforms, but I
>> don't see many devices besides phones.
>>
>>
>>     
> The Dell Streak is coming later this summer to the US (is 5" too big?  I
> think that compares to the Archos).
>
> http://en.community.dell.com/dell-blogs/b/direct2dell/archive/2010/05/25/dell-streak-the-versatile-5-inch-android-tablet.aspx
>
>   
5" is what the Archos is, so that would be good. It looks interesting. I
see it has support for cell data networks, wonder if you'll be able to
get it without a data plan and just use the WIFI?


From nick.traxler at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 21:55:47 2010
From: nick.traxler at gmail.com (Nick Traxler)
Date: Mon, 07 Jun 2010 21:55:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
Message-ID: <4C0DB133.5050301@gmail.com>

Hi All -
I'm new to the list, and I'm looking to sell some old computer 
equipment. (I figured the LUG is a better place to start than Craigslist.)
Is there a separate mailing list/newsgroup, or are "for sale" messages 
appropriate in this list?

Thanks for any info!
Nick


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 22:04:02 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 22:04:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <4C0DB133.5050301@gmail.com>
References: <4C0DB133.5050301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilq_bFIgSkv1sszfbfyvbNJTJgDj06wsNRDLcW-@mail.gmail.com>

There used to be, but last I heard it wasn't working, so I think you
can just do it here.

 - Tony


From scottbb1973 at gmail.com  Mon Jun  7 23:38:11 2010
From: scottbb1973 at gmail.com (Scott Berry)
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2010 23:38:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
References: <4C0DB133.5050301@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51445985749B4AB78F2D80B1EA0F564C@Pepper>

Hey Nick,

Whatcha got?

I believe that you can say the items right here.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Traxler" <nick.traxler at gmail.com>
To: <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 21:55
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?


> Hi All -
> I'm new to the list, and I'm looking to sell some old computer
> equipment. (I figured the LUG is a better place to start than Craigslist.)
> Is there a separate mailing list/newsgroup, or are "for sale" messages
> appropriate in this list?
>
> Thanks for any info!
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 



From swaite at sbn-services.com  Tue Jun  8 09:51:25 2010
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 09:51:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
Message-ID: <1276008685.4c0e58ed367aa@g3.sbn-services.com>

Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this list
for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list operational
for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did
everyone switch to? i?

At Monday, 07-06-2010 on 23:38 "Scott Berry"  wrote:

Hey Nick,

Whatcha got?

I believe that you can say the items right here.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Nick Traxler" 
To: 
Sent: Monday, June 07, 2010 21:55
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?

> Hi All -
> I'm new to the list, and I'm looking to sell some old computer
> equipment. (I figured the LUG is a better place to start than
Craigslist.)
> Is there a separate mailing list/newsgroup, or are "for sale"
messages
> appropriate in this list?
>
> Thanks for any info!
> Nick
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Tue Jun  8 15:50:38 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 15:50:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <1276008685.4c0e58ed367aa@g3.sbn-services.com>
References: <1276008685.4c0e58ed367aa@g3.sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <4C0EAD1E.40508@netscape.net>

On 06/08/2010 09:51 AM, Sean Waite wrote:
> Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this list
> for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list operational
> for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did
> everyone switch to i<insert latest Apple fad>?

Apple?  Do you mean Fisher-Price?



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun  8 16:45:25 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 16:45:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <4C0EAD1E.40508@netscape.net>
References: <1276008685.4c0e58ed367aa@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<4C0EAD1E.40508@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006081640190.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Mr. B-o-B wrote:

> On 06/08/2010 09:51 AM, Sean Waite wrote:
>
>> Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this list 
>> for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list operational 
>> for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did 
>> everyone switch to i<insert latest Apple fad>?
>
> Apple?  Do you mean Fisher-Price?

Funny thing -- the "<insert latest Apple fad>" was deleted in the plain 
text of the previous message and it appeared only in the HTML attachment. 
I had no idea what it was about until I saw this reply.  I guess it's a 
Group-Office bug, but other than that, how do you like Group-Office?

Mike


From tompoe at meltel.net  Tue Jun  8 18:25:29 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 18:25:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
Message-ID: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>

Hi:  Just moved to Minnesota to be closer to my daughter and grandkids.  
Noticed your web site while searching for Minnesota options for 
purchasing cigarettes.  When I lived in Reno, Nevada, I could purchase 
cigarettes from an Indian reservation smoke shop located close by.  Does 
Minnesota have smoke shops on Indian reservations?
Thanks, Tom Poe, Eden Valley, MN


From swaite at sbn-services.com  Tue Jun  8 16:22:41 2010
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 16:22:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
Message-ID: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>

Absolutely love Group-Office, it is in my opinion the best of all
webmail/groupware offerings. I have tried out over the years just
about every one available. Closest I think was Roundcube, but even
that it had it's own drawbacks and shortcomings. I have used Group
Office for around 5-6 years now ( I can't even remember when I first
installed it). I have to say I can not think of a time that it was
unstable, problematic, etc. I pretty much have the same installation
and database (with upgrades and updates) running now since the very
first install.

At Tuesday, 08-06-2010 on 16:45 Mike Miller wrote:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Mr. B-o-B wrote:

> On 06/08/2010 09:51 AM, Sean Waite wrote:
>
>> Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this
list 
>> for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list
operational 
>> for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did 
>> everyone switch to i?
>
> Apple???Do you mean Fisher-Price?

Funny thing -- the "" was deleted in the plain 
text of the previous message and it appeared only in the HTML
attachment. 
I had no idea what it was about until I saw this reply.??I guess
it's a 
Group-Office bug, but other than that, how do you like Group-Office?

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From jjensen at apache.org  Tue Jun  8 20:28:54 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 20:28:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Group-Office (was RE:  Equipment for sale?)
In-Reply-To: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <001e01cb0773$24cb0730$6e611590$@org>

Interesting - have been looking at the Group-Office web site and SF project.

How do you run it - their hosted version or your local install?  Is this for your personal use or for your organization?

I've been wondering what to change to.  Since my employer and my customers all use Outlook as the client, and my phone is a Windoze Mobile, I've just been using Outlook with a .pst on my server for many years (easy familiarity and phone sync).  One of these days I will get a new phone; probably some Android option (while Apple is good, I'm just not a #fanboy), and I wonder about syncing.  It's also not attractive to be forced to sync the Android through Google... need to learn more about those requirements/options.  I'd rather just sync my phone to something on my machine or directly to my/hosted server software.


From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Sean Waite
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 4:23 PM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?

Absolutely love Group-Office, it is in my opinion the best of all webmail/groupware offerings. I have tried out over the years just about every one available. Closest I think was Roundcube, but even that it had it's own drawbacks and shortcomings. I have used Group Office for around 5-6 years now ( I can't even remember when I first installed it). I have to say I can not think of a time that it was unstable, problematic, etc. I pretty much have the same installation and database (with upgrades and updates) running now since the very first install.


At Tuesday, 08-06-2010 on 16:45 Mike Miller wrote:

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Mr. B-o-B wrote:

> On 06/08/2010 09:51 AM, Sean Waite wrote:
>
>> Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this list 
>> for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list operational 
>> for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did 
>> everyone switch to i<insert latest Apple fad>?
>
> Apple?  Do you mean Fisher-Price?

Funny thing -- the "<insert latest Apple fad>" was deleted in the plain 
text of the previous message and it appeared only in the HTML attachment. 
I had no idea what it was about until I saw this reply.  I guess it's a 
Group-Office bug, but other than that, how do you like Group-Office?

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jjensen at apache.org  Tue Jun  8 22:37:46 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 22:37:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] SELinux config to allow bash script to sudo?
Message-ID: <003901cb0785$24c7a6a0$6e56f3e0$@org>

I'm seeing these SELinux messages, and have been trying to learn how to
config SELinux to allow the script to sudo.  CLI works fine with sudo.

"SELinux is preventing /bin/bash "execute" access on /usr/bin/sudo." 
"SELinux is preventing /bin/bash "getattr" access on /usr/bin/sudo."

It seems I must create a "local policy module".  Anyone know this stuff and
can confirm?  I've been Googling up a storm looking for others that have
already done this but have not found anything.  I found the
/usr/share/selinux/ dir structure with some existing ones, but nothing with
sudo in the name.  Will need to figure out how to create it.

I also tried setting the -r (role) and -t (type) arguments to the sudo
command before embarking on a policy module.  So I'm not sure if that should
work on its own (maybe using incorrect values or something) or selinux needs
config with or without the sudo args too?

Or is there a better way to invoke a privileged command as non-root user
than sudo?




From Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com  Wed Jun  9 08:37:38 2010
From: Larry.Pint at ntuminc.com (Larry R. Pint)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 08:37:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AD1913F70C219A458F44131CC9E91BA601BCB238@exch01.internal.ntuminc.com>

I know the tribe at Mystic Lake (in the Prior Lake/Shakopee area just
south of the Twin Cities) does.  I would guess other reservations do
also.

Larry
 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-
> linux.org] On Behalf Of Tom Poe
> Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 6:25 PM
> To: TCLUG List
> Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
> 
> Hi:  Just moved to Minnesota to be closer to my daughter and
grandkids.
> Noticed your web site while searching for Minnesota options for
> purchasing cigarettes.  When I lived in Reno, Nevada, I could purchase
> cigarettes from an Indian reservation smoke shop located close by.
Does
> Minnesota have smoke shops on Indian reservations?
> Thanks, Tom Poe, Eden Valley, MN
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Wed Jun  9 09:39:35 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:39:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Group-Office (was RE:  Equipment for sale?)
In-Reply-To: <001e01cb0773$24cb0730$6e611590$@org>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<001e01cb0773$24cb0730$6e611590$@org>
Message-ID: <4C0FA7A7.6050709@netscape.net>

On 06/08/2010 08:28 PM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> Interesting - have been looking at the Group-Office web site and SF project.
>
> How do you run it - their hosted version or your local install?  Is this for your personal use or for your organization?
>
> I've been wondering what to change to.  Since my employer and my customers all use Outlook as the client, and my phone is a Windoze Mobile, I've just been using Outlook with a .pst on my server for many years (easy familiarity and phone sync).  One of these days I will get a new phone; probably some Android option (while Apple is good, I'm just not a #fanboy), and I wonder about syncing.  It's also not attractive to be forced to sync the Android through Google... need to learn more about those requirements/options.  I'd rather just sync my phone to something on my machine or directly to my/hosted server software.
>

I am guessing, but since you are using outlook does that mean you are 
also using Exchange?  If so you do not need to use Google.  Droid, 
iphones, and any other device that come with m$ active sync will work 
(providing that your Exchange has this available).  I am sad to say that 
I manage an Exchange server here at work.  Once upon a time I 
recommended everyone to get a Blackberry, and I have a B-Berry Ent 
Server running for them.  Since we moved to Exchange 2007, I have been 
pushing people to get something with M$ active sync.  It's pretty sweet. 
  Everything (what you want synced that is) is done wirelessly.  No 
special requirement, no crap to load on your pc, etc.

I digress....

Forgive me for the m$ speak :(

Slackware rules!

B-o-B



From jjensen at apache.org  Wed Jun  9 11:09:17 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:09:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Group-Office (was RE:  Equipment for sale?)
In-Reply-To: <4C0FA7A7.6050709@netscape.net>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>	<001e01cb0773$24cb0730$6e611590$@org>
	<4C0FA7A7.6050709@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <000001cb07ee$212ab910$63802b30$@org>

Not using Exchange at home - just an Outlook .pst file on my server.  The
"forthcoming new phone" will have to sync with my .pst or I'll have to setup
something else.

So how do you run Group-Office - using their hosted version or a local
install you manage?  By your other info on exchange, I infer you use it
personally/not for your organization...
Do you think it is something worthwhile to investigate to use with the phone
sync I am mentioning?


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mr. B-o-B
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:40 AM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Group-Office (was RE: Equipment for sale?)

On 06/08/2010 08:28 PM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> Interesting - have been looking at the Group-Office web site and SF
project.
>
> How do you run it - their hosted version or your local install?  Is this
for your personal use or for your organization?
>
> I've been wondering what to change to.  Since my employer and my customers
all use Outlook as the client, and my phone is a Windoze Mobile, I've just
been using Outlook with a .pst on my server for many years (easy familiarity
and phone sync).  One of these days I will get a new phone; probably some
Android option (while Apple is good, I'm just not a #fanboy), and I wonder
about syncing.  It's also not attractive to be forced to sync the Android
through Google... need to learn more about those requirements/options.  I'd
rather just sync my phone to something on my machine or directly to
my/hosted server software.
>

I am guessing, but since you are using outlook does that mean you are 
also using Exchange?  If so you do not need to use Google.  Droid, 
iphones, and any other device that come with m$ active sync will work 
(providing that your Exchange has this available).  I am sad to say that 
I manage an Exchange server here at work.  Once upon a time I 
recommended everyone to get a Blackberry, and I have a B-Berry Ent 
Server running for them.  Since we moved to Exchange 2007, I have been 
pushing people to get something with M$ active sync.  It's pretty sweet. 
  Everything (what you want synced that is) is done wirelessly.  No 
special requirement, no crap to load on your pc, etc.

I digress....

Forgive me for the m$ speak :(

Slackware rules!

B-o-B


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From dan at dburkland.com  Wed Jun  9 11:44:35 2010
From: dan at dburkland.com (Dan Burkland)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 11:44:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  SELinux config to allow bash script to sudo?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.18825.1276094821.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.18825.1276094821.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <C0B7A96E-87E8-4729-9498-4ED4D0FE84F9@dburkland.com>

I'm seeing these SELinux messages, and have been trying to learn how to
config SELinux to allow the script to sudo.  CLI works fine with sudo.

"SELinux is preventing /bin/bash "execute" access on /usr/bin/sudo."
"SELinux is preventing /bin/bash "getattr" access on /usr/bin/sudo."

It seems I must create a "local policy module".  Anyone know this  
stuff and
can confirm?  I've been Googling up a storm looking for others that have
already done this but have not found anything.  I found the
/usr/share/selinux/ dir structure with some existing ones, but nothing  
with
sudo in the name.  Will need to figure out how to create it.

I also tried setting the -r (role) and -t (type) arguments to the sudo
command before embarking on a policy module.  So I'm not sure if that  
should
work on its own (maybe using incorrect values or something) or selinux  
needs
config with or without the sudo args too?

Or is there a better way to invoke a privileged command as non-root user
than sudo?

----------------

You can create a local selinux module by using audit2allow as root.

1) grep "sudo" /var/log/audit/audit.log | audit2allow -M sudobashfix
2) semodule -i sudobashfix.pp

Regards,

Dan
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From kc0iog at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 12:42:54 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:42:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> Hi: ?Just moved to Minnesota to be closer to my daughter and grandkids.

Welcome.

> Noticed your web site while searching for Minnesota options for
> purchasing cigarettes. ?When I lived in Reno, Nevada, I could purchase
> cigarettes from an Indian reservation smoke shop located close by. ?Does
> Minnesota have smoke shops on Indian reservations?

Wouldn't know, us linux geeks are used to rolling our own... everything. :-)

Brian


From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Jun  9 12:46:13 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 12:46:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>

Best... response... ever... 

On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Brian Wall wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
>> Hi:  Just moved to Minnesota to be closer to my daughter and grandkids.
> 
> Welcome.
> 
>> Noticed your web site while searching for Minnesota options for
>> purchasing cigarettes.  When I lived in Reno, Nevada, I could purchase
>> cigarettes from an Indian reservation smoke shop located close by.  Does
>> Minnesota have smoke shops on Indian reservations?
> 
> Wouldn't know, us linux geeks are used to rolling our own... everything. :-)
> 
> Brian
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tompoe at meltel.net  Wed Jun  9 13:06:18 2010
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 13:06:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>	<AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>
	<46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>
Message-ID: <4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>

Ryan Coleman wrote:
> Best... response... ever... 
>   
My apologies, folks.  Sent the wrong message.  Found out the tribes sell 
retail price, and pocket the federal taxes in a deal with the 
state/feds.  The message I wanted to send:

Well, made the move from northeast Iowa.  Now in striking range for 
install fests, etc.  All settled in Eden Valley.  Need to set up my Dell 
GX260 desktop to maximize my standalone DSL line with Internet access 
provided by regional telecom, Melrose Telephone Company.  Can someone 
point me to a set of linux commands to document what my computer is, 
now?  I want to check hardware setup.  I have two drives, an 80GB drive 
and a 160GB drive, but want to upgrade to Ubuntu10.4 and use both 
drives.  In other words, want to reformat both drives, and treat as 
one.  Any suggestions appreciated.
Tom


From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Jun  9 13:09:54 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 13:09:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>
	<46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>
	<4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <C0081349-8E91-47CD-BB54-49AFF0DD3834@me.com>

Tom,

Apology accepted, but I think that response by Brian should be nominated for the best off-topic email response of 2010. :)

You can start by looking at /var/log/messages or /log/messages (or whereever the log folder is on your install) and look for that boot up data... most of the hardware is listed there.

--
Ryan

On Jun 9, 2010, at 1:06 PM, Tom Poe wrote:

> Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> Best... response... ever... 
>> 
> My apologies, folks.  Sent the wrong message.  Found out the tribes sell 
> retail price, and pocket the federal taxes in a deal with the 
> state/feds.  The message I wanted to send:
> 
> Well, made the move from northeast Iowa.  Now in striking range for 
> install fests, etc.  All settled in Eden Valley.  Need to set up my Dell 
> GX260 desktop to maximize my standalone DSL line with Internet access 
> provided by regional telecom, Melrose Telephone Company.  Can someone 
> point me to a set of linux commands to document what my computer is, 
> now?  I want to check hardware setup.  I have two drives, an 80GB drive 
> and a 160GB drive, but want to upgrade to Ubuntu10.4 and use both 
> drives.  In other words, want to reformat both drives, and treat as 
> one.  Any suggestions appreciated.
> Tom
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 13:19:19 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:19:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>
	<46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>
	<4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinQ6ZINnOglx9y1hw8KJQPG1r9V9GDCnE-gfxMH@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> Can someone
> point me to a set of linux commands to document what my computer is,
> now? ?I want to check hardware setup.

lshw (List Hardware) works nicely.  For more specific components,
lspci, lsusb, and fdisk -l are also useful.

> but want to upgrade to Ubuntu10.4

Glad to hear it.  In addition to the distro-independent city-based
LUG, I'll also mention that we have an Ubuntu-focused statewide Local
Community that may be of interest to you - more info at
http://ubuntu-minnesota.org/

> In other words, want to reformat both drives, and treat as
> one. ?Any suggestions appreciated.

Should be simple as pie from the Ubuntu installer - just select the
"erase everything and use entire disk" (or similar wording) option.

 - Tony Yarusso


From florin at iucha.net  Wed Jun  9 13:32:17 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:32:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinQ6ZINnOglx9y1hw8KJQPG1r9V9GDCnE-gfxMH@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>
	<46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>
	<4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTinQ6ZINnOglx9y1hw8KJQPG1r9V9GDCnE-gfxMH@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100609183217.GK2828@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Jun 09, 2010 at 01:19:19PM -0500, Tony Yarusso wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> > Can someone
> > point me to a set of linux commands to document what my computer is,
> > now? ?I want to check hardware setup.
> 
> lshw (List Hardware) works nicely.  For more specific components,
> lspci, lsusb, and fdisk -l are also useful.

Check out dmidecode as well.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From strayf at freeshell.org  Wed Jun  9 13:26:35 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 13:26:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>	<AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>	<46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>
	<4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <4C0FDCDB.70605@freeshell.org>

On 06/09/2010 01:06 PM, Tom Poe wrote:
> Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> Best... response... ever...
>>
> My apologies, folks.  Sent the wrong message.  Found out the tribes sell
> retail price, and pocket the federal taxes in a deal with the
> state/feds.  The message I wanted to send:
>
> Well, made the move from northeast Iowa.  Now in striking range for
> install fests, etc.  All settled in Eden Valley.  Need to set up my Dell
> GX260 desktop to maximize my standalone DSL line with Internet access
> provided by regional telecom, Melrose Telephone Company.  Can someone
> point me to a set of linux commands to document what my computer is,
> now?  I want to check hardware setup.  I have two drives, an 80GB drive
> and a 160GB drive, but want to upgrade to Ubuntu10.4 and use both
> drives.  In other words, want to reformat both drives, and treat as
> one.  Any suggestions appreciated.

lshw and lspci might be useful for hardware info.

Raid and/or LVM can combine your drives into one -- there are many 
different ways to do this depending on what you're trying to achieve. Or 
you could simply set one drive as root (/) and mount the other as /home or 
something if you're just trying to make use of the space.

-Steve


From sloncho at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 13:44:12 2010
From: sloncho at gmail.com (Sunny)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 13:44:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hi, again
In-Reply-To: <4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
References: <4C0ED169.7020903@meltel.net>
	<AANLkTim0ebwbhPxwCvqEovYW0hHmPbCGEII7c1YAO-6h@mail.gmail.com>
	<46633E12-1FFC-45A6-BA2F-BE95BED08E6D@me.com>
	<4C0FD81A.3050708@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikBxtZgGlt2l_6g8QD7cBrhIwYvAX92nHDMOw19@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 1:06 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> Best... response... ever...
>>
> My apologies, folks. ?Sent the wrong message. ?Found out the tribes sell
> retail price, and pocket the federal taxes in a deal with the
> state/feds. ?The message I wanted to send:
>
> Well, made the move from northeast Iowa. ?Now in striking range for
> install fests, etc. ?All settled in Eden Valley. ?Need to set up my Dell
> GX260 desktop to maximize my standalone DSL line with Internet access
> provided by regional telecom, Melrose Telephone Company. ?Can someone
> point me to a set of linux commands to document what my computer is,
> now? ?I want to check hardware setup. ?I have two drives, an 80GB drive
> and a 160GB drive, but want to upgrade to Ubuntu10.4 and use both
> drives. ?In other words, want to reformat both drives, and treat as
> one. ?Any suggestions appreciated.
> Tom
>

If you want to treat both drives as one, you need to use LVM. It's not
available trough the normal desktop ubuntu live disk, you will need
the alternative installer cd to make such an installation.

Using LVM, you first need to make PVs (phisical volumes), then create
LG (logical group) and add them to it. LG will look like as a single
device to your system. After that in the LG you create - LVs (logical
volumes) - think about them as partitions in the LG device.

There are few bad things with this approach - if one of the disks
fail, you loose everything - but again, this will happen as well as if
you have only one disk and it fails :)

I would suggest that you partition your first drive as follows:

200-300 MB /boot - etc3 (you don't need etx4 for that, even etc2 will be enough)
about 10G for the / - to hold your OS
another 10G (optional) just to have free space for another OS, if you
decide to do so later to try out something
about 1G swap (depends on your memory, but 1G should be more than enough).

The rest of the drive you can partition as 20G chucks. Same for the
second drive - many 20GB chunks.

Make these 20G partitions a PVs for your LVM setup. Create LG out of
few of them (not all - you can add later when you need more space).

In the LG, create 2 partitions (LVs) to hold your /home and /var -
IMHO these are the once which usually need more space.

Every time you need more space, you can add more PVs to the LG, and
then resize the LVs on the new empty space.

That way you would not block all of your available space at once, but
on "as needed" basis. You can always re-use the not used empty PVs for
something else if you need to.

Just don't forget to backup :)

And remember - its not enough to resize the LV (partition), you need
to resize the file system on that partition as well. I.e. if you
expand the /home LV, you will need to resize the files system as well.

Here are 2 links for more details:
http://www.howtoforge.com/linux_lvm
http://www.debuntu.org/how-to-install-ubuntu-over-lvm-filesystem


Also, here is an explanation how to instal nice GUI to manage your LVM
setup, when you need to expand:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=216117

Cheers,
Sunny

-- 
Svetoslav Milenov (Sunny)

Artificial Intelligence is no match for natural stupidity.


From sraun at fireopal.org  Wed Jun  9 18:33:09 2010
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 18:33:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT Hardware Question
Message-ID: <20100609233309.GB5055@fireopal.org>

I've got a Logitech trackball device that has a PS2 connector.  Is
there actually a PS2 (female) to USB (male) convertor so that I could
use on my laptop that has no PS2 ports?  Any suggestions where to get
one?

-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org


From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Jun  9 19:05:01 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2010 19:05:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT Hardware Question
In-Reply-To: <20100609233309.GB5055@fireopal.org>
References: <20100609233309.GB5055@fireopal.org>
Message-ID: <FAA09D72-082E-478F-BE33-C8A6C40CEAE0@me.com>

Yes I have a pair of those, i bought them at micro center but most tech stores (not likely big box) have them. 

Ryan Coleman
Publisher, d3photography.com
editor at d3photography.com
612.618.5682 (mobile)

On Jun 9, 2010, at 18:33, Scott Raun <sraun at fireopal.org> wrote:

> I've got a Logitech trackball device that has a PS2 connector.  Is
> there actually a PS2 (female) to USB (male) convertor so that I could
> use on my laptop that has no PS2 ports?  Any suggestions where to get
> one?
> 
> -- 
> Scott Raun
> sraun at fireopal.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jjensen at apache.org  Wed Jun  9 21:23:58 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 21:23:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] SELinux config to allow bash script to sudo?
In-Reply-To: <C0B7A96E-87E8-4729-9498-4ED4D0FE84F9@dburkland.com>
References: <mailman.18825.1276094821.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<C0B7A96E-87E8-4729-9498-4ED4D0FE84F9@dburkland.com>
Message-ID: <001701cb0843$ff489910$fdd9cb30$@org>

Magic!  Thank you so much Dan!  audit3allow is perfect.

 

 

From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Dan Burkland
Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 11:45 AM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: [tclug-list] SELinux config to allow bash script to sudo?

 

I'm seeing these SELinux messages, and have been trying to learn how to
config SELinux to allow the script to sudo.  CLI works fine with sudo.

"SELinux is preventing /bin/bash "execute" access on /usr/bin/sudo." 
"SELinux is preventing /bin/bash "getattr" access on /usr/bin/sudo."

It seems I must create a "local policy module".  Anyone know this stuff and
can confirm?  I've been Googling up a storm looking for others that have
already done this but have not found anything.  I found the
/usr/share/selinux/ dir structure with some existing ones, but nothing with
sudo in the name.  Will need to figure out how to create it.

I also tried setting the -r (role) and -t (type) arguments to the sudo
command before embarking on a policy module.  So I'm not sure if that should
work on its own (maybe using incorrect values or something) or selinux needs
config with or without the sudo args too?

Or is there a better way to invoke a privileged command as non-root user
than sudo?





----------------





You can create a local selinux module by using audit2allow as root. 





1) grep "sudo" /var/log/audit/audit.log | audit2allow -M sudobashfix

2) semodule -i sudobashfix.pp





Regards,





Dan

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From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 11:40:13 2010
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 11:40:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>

amazing how the group has changed, I sent an html email and the flame
war went on for days. I left the group for a year after that.

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Sean Waite <swaite at sbn-services.com> wrote:
> Absolutely love Group-Office, it is in my opinion the best of all
> webmail/groupware offerings. I have tried out over the years just about
> every one available. Closest I think was Roundcube, but even that it had
> it's own drawbacks and shortcomings. I have used Group Office for around 5-6
> years now ( I can't even remember when I first installed it). I have to say
> I can not think of a time that it was unstable, problematic, etc. I pretty
> much have the same installation and database (with upgrades and updates)
> running now since the very first install.
>
>
> At Tuesday, 08-06-2010 on 16:45 Mike Miller wrote:
>
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Mr. B-o-B wrote:
>
>> On 06/08/2010 09:51 AM, Sean Waite wrote:
>>
>>> Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this list
>>> for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list operational
>>> for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did
>>> everyone switch to i<insert latest Apple fad>?
>>
>> Apple???Do you mean Fisher-Price?
>
> Funny thing -- the "<insert latest Apple fad>" was deleted in the plain
> text of the previous message and it appeared only in the HTML attachment.
> I had no idea what it was about until I saw this reply.??I guess it's a
> Group-Office bug, but other than that, how do you like Group-Office?
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Jun 10 12:07:28 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:07:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FA527F90-9F32-44A9-AF18-5434A5631360@me.com>

We change over slowly, just like old corporations do to new technology...

And out pipes are bigger, our homebrew mail servers are larger, etc... 


On Jun 10, 2010, at 11:40 AM, James wrote:

> amazing how the group has changed, I sent an html email and the flame
> war went on for days. I left the group for a year after that.
> 
> On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Sean Waite <swaite at sbn-services.com> wrote:
>> Absolutely love Group-Office, it is in my opinion the best of all
>> webmail/groupware offerings. I have tried out over the years just about
>> every one available. Closest I think was Roundcube, but even that it had
>> it's own drawbacks and shortcomings. I have used Group Office for around 5-6
>> years now ( I can't even remember when I first installed it). I have to say
>> I can not think of a time that it was unstable, problematic, etc. I pretty
>> much have the same installation and database (with upgrades and updates)
>> running now since the very first install.
>> 
>> 
>> At Tuesday, 08-06-2010 on 16:45 Mike Miller wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Mr. B-o-B wrote:
>> 
>>> On 06/08/2010 09:51 AM, Sean Waite wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this list
>>>> for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list operational
>>>> for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did
>>>> everyone switch to i<insert latest Apple fad>?
>>> 
>>> Apple?  Do you mean Fisher-Price?
>> 
>> Funny thing -- the "<insert latest Apple fad>" was deleted in the plain
>> text of the previous message and it appeared only in the HTML attachment.
>> I had no idea what it was about until I saw this reply.  I guess it's a
>> Group-Office bug, but other than that, how do you like Group-Office?
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Jun 10 12:10:44 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:10:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D9FDA4DA05954D7F89FE10395BAA3B99@usicorp.usinternet.com>

You TOP POSTED!! OMG!! 

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of James
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 11:40 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?

amazing how the group has changed, I sent an html email and the flame
war went on for days. I left the group for a year after that.

On Tue, Jun 8, 2010 at 4:22 PM, Sean Waite <swaite at sbn-services.com> wrote:
> Absolutely love Group-Office, it is in my opinion the best of all
> webmail/groupware offerings. I have tried out over the years just about
> every one available. Closest I think was Roundcube, but even that it had
> it's own drawbacks and shortcomings. I have used Group Office for around
5-6
> years now ( I can't even remember when I first installed it). I have to
say
> I can not think of a time that it was unstable, problematic, etc. I pretty
> much have the same installation and database (with upgrades and updates)
> running now since the very first install.
>
>
> At Tuesday, 08-06-2010 on 16:45 Mike Miller wrote:
>
> On Tue, 8 Jun 2010, Mr. B-o-B wrote:
>
>> On 06/08/2010 09:51 AM, Sean Waite wrote:
>>
>>> Hasn't it been the case where people have posted directly to this list
>>> for years now? I do not remember the separate trading list operational
>>> for some time. Besides, this list is pretty dead as of late (did
>>> everyone switch to i<insert latest Apple fad>?
>>
>> Apple???Do you mean Fisher-Price?
>
> Funny thing -- the "<insert latest Apple fad>" was deleted in the plain
> text of the previous message and it appeared only in the HTML attachment.
> I had no idea what it was about until I saw this reply.??I guess it's a
> Group-Office bug, but other than that, how do you like Group-Office?
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 12:35:27 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 12:35:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 9 selinux script
Message-ID: <AANLkTinC0zofhBeL2n1BWSHOqapPKFE1aY-saI4CFWR3@mail.gmail.com>

Can you log in as root and save your script in /root
called rootscript
then edit  /etc/crontab
and add a line " 1 12  * * /root/rootscript "

That would run the script at 1201 pm everyday.

Hope that helps, Ron
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From florin at iucha.net  Thu Jun 10 16:33:07 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:33:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <D9FDA4DA05954D7F89FE10395BAA3B99@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9FDA4DA05954D7F89FE10395BAA3B99@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <20100610213307.GT2828@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:10:44PM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote:
> You TOP POSTED!! OMG!! 

And didn't trim the signatures either!

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tlunde at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 17:43:46 2010
From: tlunde at gmail.com (T L)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 16:43:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <20100610213307.GT2828@iris.iucha.org>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9FDA4DA05954D7F89FE10395BAA3B99@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<20100610213307.GT2828@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>

And some of us write on phones where we a) can only top post and b) where
the reply-to text is uneditable (yuck).

Thomas

On Jun 10, 2010 4:36 PM, "Florin Iucha" <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:10:44PM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote:
> You TOP POSTED!! OMG!!

And didn't trim the signatures either!

florin

--
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
     http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From florin at iucha.net  Thu Jun 10 23:31:27 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:31:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9FDA4DA05954D7F89FE10395BAA3B99@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<20100610213307.GT2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100611043126.GU2828@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 04:43:46PM -0600, T L wrote:
> And some of us write on phones where we a) can only top post and b) where
> the reply-to text is uneditable (yuck).

Surely you don't _have to_ write on the phones and you don't have to
buy the crappy phones.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Jun 10 23:50:16 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 23:50:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <20100611043126.GU2828@iris.iucha.org>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9FDA4DA05954D7F89FE10395BAA3B99@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<20100610213307.GT2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100611043126.GU2828@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006102349100.30023@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> and you don't have to buy the crappy phones.

A) Yes. Yes we do; although: 
A) I don't think my Nexus One is crappy.


-Yaron

--


From popps at primeventures.us  Fri Jun 11 09:22:40 2010
From: popps at primeventures.us (don)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:22:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>

 I don't know what the fuss is about. I just write on the screen. My crayons
work the best. And then to make sure that no ones upset, I just post in the
middle!
  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of T L
  Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 5:44 PM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?


  And some of us write on phones where we a) can only top post and b) where
the reply-to text is uneditable (yuck).

  Thomas


    On Jun 10, 2010 4:36 PM, "Florin Iucha" <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

    On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:10:44PM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote:
    > You TOP POSTED!! OMG!!

    And didn't trim the signatures either!

    florin

    --
    Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
         http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163

    _______________________________________________
    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
    tclug-list at mn-linux.org
    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 09:42:46 2010
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:42:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>

At the time I was told the only approved messages were those sent as
text only, no html. Several people were really upset that I used html
in my email. My solution to their problem was to leave the group.

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:22 AM, don <popps at primeventures.us> wrote:
> ?I don't know what the fuss is about.?I just write on the screen. My crayons
> work the best. And then to make sure that no ones upset,?I?just post in the
> middle!
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of T L
> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 5:44 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
>
> And some of us write on phones where we a) can only top post and b) where
> the reply-to text is uneditable (yuck).
>
> Thomas
>
> On Jun 10, 2010 4:36 PM, "Florin Iucha" <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:10:44PM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote:
>> You TOP POSTED!! OMG!!
>
> And didn't trim the signatures either!
>
> florin
>
> --
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
> ? ? ?http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Jun 11 09:57:13 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:57:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 09:42:46AM -0500, James wrote:
> At the time I was told the only approved messages were those sent as
> text only, no html. Several people were really upset that I used html
> in my email. My solution to their problem was to leave the group.

You probably used a bad MUA that didn't even bother to send a
plain-text version.

The same way that you think your way of sending HTML mail from a phone
works best for you, I think that reading it in text mode through a SSH
connection works best for me.  But if you want to communicate, you
need to send something that we can both see...

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 11:04:48 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:04:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006111100510.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, James wrote:

> At the time I was told the only approved messages were those sent as 
> text only, no html. Several people were really upset that I used html in 
> my email. My solution to their problem was to leave the group.

But also, you figured out how to send plain text.  ;-)

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 11:07:44 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:07:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006111104560.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> if you want to communicate, you need to send something that we can both 
> see...

Hear, hear!  Plain text really does work.  Of course Micrsoft knows that 
communication works both ways, so they'll try to produce things for the 
sender that can't be read unless the receiver also has their software. 
Running counter to your dictum has made them billions.

Mike


From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 11:30:17 2010
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:30:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006111104560.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006111104560.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilLDTh6j3rDyseZs4qXNwKBpJipJvSZ5xRse5EY@mail.gmail.com>

I had no option because of the limited abilities on the part of others.

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:
>
>> if you want to communicate, you need to send something that we can both
>> see...
>
> Hear, hear! ?Plain text really does work. ?Of course Micrsoft knows that
> communication works both ways, so they'll try to produce things for the
> sender that can't be read unless the receiver also has their software.
> Running counter to your dictum has made them billions.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Jun 11 11:44:06 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:44:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006111104560.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com><PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us><AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com><20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006111104560.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <E3C1E63E74744677885DDA379AAB9B6A@usicorp.usinternet.com>

It also implies the receiver of communications should not have to make any
effort. If you don't send to me in a manner I can see with no effort then
don't bother sending it to me. Not everyone wants to use the same programs
or standards as everyone else. There has to be accommodations on both sides
in general. This is seasoned with salt and sarcasm so please do not be
offended.

I want to see a really righteous CR vs LF vs CRLF flamewar.


To quote my cousin the Grand Poobah in relation to our guild IMPERIUM in an
online game.


When the holy file of ASCII was first translated from binary, these secrets
and wisdoms were lost.  Until the translation, man was lost.  Joining the
Imperium is a rebirth, much like the rebirth of man.

"Whether the End of line in the book of ASCII is a carriage return, or both
a carriage return and a Line feed, the text is yet unchanged.  But the
formatting is destroyed, like a culture without morals, it too shall be
destroyed.  The better is the single carriage return.  Fewer bits are needed
to burst transmit.* "

*scholars note: it is unknown how many characters were actually terminating
the end of a line in the original ASCII text file.  The significance of this
is that it would determine the operating system used to originally write the
holy ASCII.  This has been the subject of many holy wars, and both have it
own camps supporting one belief or another.  These radical fundamental
syntaxists have fled to various worlds at the edges of known space vowing to
return and change everyone's mind through force and flame. 
The official line terminator endorsed by the High Cleric of the IMPERIUM
actually exists outside of the Hex range of the original ASCII character set
>FF (Some have claimed UNICODE, but burned for such heresy).  This means
that the entire character set is increased, thus leading to questions
whether or not the original text has been changed since the ancient
check-sums are no longer valid in the new character scheme.  This has led to
different separatists groups to build lone bases in worship of deuterium.
Though looked upon as heretics, their deuterium is of high quality, and is
highly sought after through the IMPERUIM.

>>end of file...Transmission from the holy terminal of the PooBah





In other news... how bout dem Bears? Oh and has anyone see the OT flag
anywhere?



-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Mike Miller
Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 11:08 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> if you want to communicate, you need to send something that we can both 
> see...

Hear, hear!  Plain text really does work.  Of course Micrsoft knows that 
communication works both ways, so they'll try to produce things for the 
sender that can't be read unless the receiver also has their software. 
Running counter to your dictum has made them billions.

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 11:21:28 2010
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:21:28 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] =?utf-8?q?Equipment_for_sale=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <17920b32b224bc0284572f363ca3e9f3@jskier.com>

All of the mailing lists I am on require plain text. I'm not one of "those
people" when it comes to using command line based e-mail, but I could see
them getting really frustrated trying to read through all of those tags.
And of course with html, someone could always abuse the blink tag :-)

Jeremy

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:42:46 -0500, James <jucziz6 at gmail.com> wrote:
> At the time I was told the only approved messages were those sent as
> text only, no html. Several people were really upset that I used html
> in my email. My solution to their problem was to leave the group.
> 
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:22 AM, don <popps at primeventures.us> wrote:
>> ?I don't know what the fuss is about.?I just write on the screen. My
>> crayons
>> work the best. And then to make sure that no ones upset,?I?just post in
>> the
>> middle!
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of T L
>> Sent: Thursday, June 10, 2010 5:44 PM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
>>
>> And some of us write on phones where we a) can only top post and b)
where
>> the reply-to text is uneditable (yuck).
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>> On Jun 10, 2010 4:36 PM, "Florin Iucha" <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:10:44PM -0500, Justin Krejci wrote:
>>> You TOP POSTED!! OMG!!
>>
>> And didn't trim the signatures either!
>>
>> florin
>>
>> --
>> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
>> ? ? ?http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 11:50:36 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 11:50:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimnSC4whJHHcMlPN1W5ck69_uNU9G7p8in77gJD@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 9:57 AM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 09:42:46AM -0500, James wrote:
> > At the time I was told the only approved messages were those sent as
> > text only, no html. Several people were really upset that I used html
> > in my email. My solution to their problem was to leave the group.
>
> You probably used a bad MUA that didn't even bother to send a
> plain-text version.
>
> The same way that you think your way of sending HTML mail from a phone
> works best for you, I think that reading it in text mode through a SSH
> connection works best for me.  But if you want to communicate, you
> need to send something that we can both see...
>
> Cheers,
> florin
>
>
There comes a time when you (the royal you, not you specifically, florin.
Which is to say I'm addressing the point more than the individual here. )
are just being plain stubborn.  Clinging to your VT100 terminal emulation
over ssh with a MUA that can't render HTML to ASCII and crying out against
the individuals who encroach on your self-selected corner of the
internet where others like you congregate and bemoan the masses
that insist on using new-fangled technology and styles for
electronic communication... yeah.  Taken to a certain degree
that's just being stubborn - there is no moral high ground.
It can be argued the html-incompatible-MUA user has
self-selected out and is asking everyone else to bend over backwards
for him.  How is that not selfish and obnoxious?

At risk of throwing gas on fire I'll take a moment just to share some
thought on the top versus in-line posting topic since that sort of
kvetching goes hand-in-hand with this topic and has already
occurred in this thread.

At a meta-level, the only people hanging onto this point and strongly
voicing opinions that will likely go with them to their grave are...
the in-line posters.  As someone who has been using email since
1990 (that's pre-web, for some of you younger whipper-snappers, and
I also recall every machine that was globally visible was in /etc/hosts..),
I was once strongly on the in-line side of this debate.  That's
how everyone did it.  And as time went by, and AOL opened up
gateways to USENET (and crapped on the Internets by doing so, imho),
and the unwashed masses began to participate in online communities,
I woke up from my dreams at night with nightmarish visions of top-posting
and ... as Netscape and other browser-based mailers encouraged the
use of HTML for message composition and formatting, all sorts of
unreadable mails spooling across my screen.   Teh horrors!

Then I got some jobs in professional high-tech environments
where, despite the fact we were all gear-heads working on the
command-line all day, we were essentially forced to use Outlook/Exchange,
though we had unix mboxes too.  And we all grumbled a bit
but over time a few benefits of top-posting became apparent.

* Top posting preserves atomicity.

Example:  Where [a] and [b] said in the same email by the same person??
----------------------
>>>>>> Rob Wrote
>>>>> Dan Wrote
>>>> Rob Wrote
>>> Jay Wrote
>> Rob Wrote
> Dan Wrote

>>>>>>  Important observation
>>>>>    Really bad response [a]
>>>>      Blah blah
>>>        Wall of text

Observation

>>>>>   Genius comment [b]
>>>>     Acknowledgement
You know, I agree with ... the guy with >>>>> things.

-------------------------

Had to think about it, right?  I've been CC'd on long threads that
have been kicked around during trouble-shooting mode before it
became obvious I was a stakeholder or area owner that needed
to be engaged.  Being able to reconstruct the chain of the email
with each response preserved atomically was often times very
helpful.  The whole history of the conversation was preserved, intact.
Sometimes that's really nice.  In fact, it's really nice a lot of times.

Moving on...
* Top posting is faster - Quite often it's just easier to bang out a
response
without worrying about all the trimming, formatting, etc...  At my
previous job I got 300 mails a day.  The overhead of in-line posting
conventions would have made that insufferable.

* Top posting encourages not using confusing pronouns whereas
  inline posting often does lead to ambiguity.

Example: Top Posting

From: Rob
Subject: Next spill cap tactic

I think increasing the flow rate of the breach by cutting the riser pipe is
a
necessary risk to get us to a better initial-condition for the cap.

From: Jay
Rob - you know if cut the riser pipe the flow rate will be increased
temporarily.

Example: In-line

> Jay wrote:
> Rob - you know if we cut the riser pipe the flow rate will be increased
temporaily

This is a necessary risk to get us to a better initial-condition for the
next attempt.
==end example

Analysis: Now - this is somewhat artifically constructed, sure.  But note
that the
in-line response took the previously quoted text as setting the subject, and
used
"this" to refer to the subject defined in the previous text.  This (heh)
happens
with top-posting too... but I have noticed over time it happens more with
in-line posting.  Using previously written text to define the context for a
response
that immediately follows is supposed to be one of the vaunted advantages of
in-line responses, but in my experience for longer threads it becomes
problematic,
and thus the "pruning effort" to keep mails shorter and more concise
involves
editing or paraphrasing text other people wrote.  That's not so bad - but it
is
time consuming.

There are other pros and cons, and I bet if you google "inline versus top
posting"
you will find more hits than google can list in 100 pages.  But before you
flame
me, please understand I'm not trying to convert anyone here.  I'm just
pointing out
that there are objectively some benefits to top-posting, and some benefits
to in-lining -
each approach has pros and cons.  If you like in-line
posting, in-line away.  Given this is a Linux LUG I'll keep in-lining
because that
seems to be the culture here and I believe in rolling with the culture when
choosing
a response style.  But.... bashing on other people who do top post from a
self-appointed morale high-ground, or just bashing on top-posting in
general...
I just want to say  ... really?   You're still fighting that war?  You're
still in
the previous decade?


In summary, I'm cool with different opinions.  But the outright hostility
and
immaturity about this particular topic is not
becoming to the bright binds that inhabit this list. I'm not trying
to sell anyone one way is better than the other - just hoping some
people can see perhaps there are two sides to this coin.  I'd rather
we flame each other about which text editor is best (Suck it, emacs users!
:) ).

Feel free to call me names now, I guess.

Thanks,
-Rob
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From sfertch at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 12:00:26 2010
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:00:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <17920b32b224bc0284572f363ca3e9f3@jskier.com>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<17920b32b224bc0284572f363ca3e9f3@jskier.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimK0Wbvyny8UzymVR_wVLemGV0pIkwyAP83Ox-R@mail.gmail.com>

Did the OP ever post up what they were hawking?  Or did I miss it in all
this historical techno babble drivel that should have it's own subject?

On Jun 11, 2010 11:56 AM, "Jeremy MountainJohnson" <
jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:

All of the mailing lists I am on require plain text. I'm not one of "those
people" when it comes to using command line based e-mail, but I could see
them getting really frustrated trying to read through all of those tags.
And of course with html, someone could always abuse the blink tag :-)

Jeremy


On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:42:46 -0500, James <jucziz6 at gmail.com> wrote:
> At the time I was told the o...
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From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Fri Jun 11 12:55:08 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 12:55:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimK0Wbvyny8UzymVR_wVLemGV0pIkwyAP83Ox-R@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>	<17920b32b224bc0284572f363ca3e9f3@jskier.com>
	<AANLkTimK0Wbvyny8UzymVR_wVLemGV0pIkwyAP83Ox-R@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C12787C.90608@netscape.net>

On 06/11/2010 12:00 PM, Shawn Fertch wrote:
> Did the OP ever post up what they were hawking?  Or did I miss it in all
> this historical techno babble drivel that should have it's own subject?

So far no mention of the items for sale....


From danyberg at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 13:31:07 2010
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:31:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
Message-ID: <AANLkTinsLNl-Fjajx4EbVvLZAn_rbJN2Vg3hdMxOnJz8@mail.gmail.com>

Uh, with all this discussion I could have missed it, but did that guy ever
actually post what it was he had for sale?

-- 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem;
government is the problem."  - Ronald Reagan

<><
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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Jun 11 13:37:53 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 13:37:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Netiquette Was: Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimnSC4whJHHcMlPN1W5ck69_uNU9G7p8in77gJD@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
	<PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us>
	<AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTimnSC4whJHHcMlPN1W5ck69_uNU9G7p8in77gJD@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100611183753.GB2828@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 11:50:36AM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
> > The same way that you think your way of sending HTML mail from a phone
> > works best for you, I think that reading it in text mode through a SSH
> > connection works best for me.  But if you want to communicate, you
> > need to send something that we can both see...
>
> There comes a time when you (the royal you, not you specifically, florin.
> Which is to say I'm addressing the point more than the individual here. )
> are just being plain stubborn.  Clinging to your VT100 terminal emulation
> over ssh with a MUA that can't render HTML to ASCII and crying out against
> the individuals who encroach on your self-selected corner of the
> internet where others like you congregate and bemoan the masses
> that insist on using new-fangled technology and styles for
> electronic communication... yeah.  Taken to a certain degree
> that's just being stubborn - there is no moral high ground.
> It can be argued the html-incompatible-MUA user has
> self-selected out and is asking everyone else to bend over backwards
> for him.  How is that not selfish and obnoxious?

I am using whatever tool is more productive for me -- in my case,
editing with vim/fmt and being able to securely read my mail over SSH
outweigh other considerations.

I do not have the natural language processing and artificial
intelligence capability to write a program to analyze the whole corpus
of e-mails exchanged via this list to give you hard numbers, so we
have to rely on my memory and general impression on this.  With that
disclaimer aside, my impression is that people who send HTML ask more
questions and people who sent text provide more answers.  As such it
would profit them to at least ask the questions in a way we can read
them.

By the way, the young texting whipper-snappers keep using all sort of
strange new strings without vowels that I have to look up in online
dictionaries, plus they utterly strain my English parser.  I'm not
saying that Modern English is God-given and immutable, but it's still
the accepted common denominator.  Just because a big herd does it, it
doesn't mean I have to follow.  I'm not claiming any moral high
ground and indeed it might be just stubbornness.  Oh well, they will
just have to wait for us to die out...

[top vs inline analysis snipped because it's a long and thoughtful
post and it would need to much time to respond to, if a response is
warranted]

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From bijoy.anose at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 15:44:12 2010
From: bijoy.anose at gmail.com (Bijoy Anose)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 15:44:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinsLNl-Fjajx4EbVvLZAn_rbJN2Vg3hdMxOnJz8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTinsLNl-Fjajx4EbVvLZAn_rbJN2Vg3hdMxOnJz8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilNeIqR6DPsNWxoj1iXgJE7lQYwsRmBz2liHTf0@mail.gmail.com>

Since he didn't, I will!

I have a 42" Pananasonic Plasma Professional Display for sale.  That
means there is no tuner, built in speakers, or anything like that.
Just a 480p display with component, s-video, vga, and composite
inputs.  Had Comcast HD feed running into it, and it looked great.  I
was planning on posting it on Craigslist for $400, but thought I'd
check here first.  Email me if you're interested.

BTW, good post, Rob!  (especially the part about emacs masochists)

-Bijoy


On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 1:31 PM, swede <danyberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> Uh, with all this discussion I could have missed it, but did that guy ever
> actually post what it was he had for sale?
>
> --
> "In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem;
> government is the problem." ?- Ronald Reagan
>
> <><
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


From cncole at earthlink.net  Sat Jun 12 01:00:08 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 01:00:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale? text..
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilLDTh6j3rDyseZs4qXNwKBpJipJvSZ5xRse5EY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAEMGDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of James
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 2010 11:30 AM
>
>
> I had no option because of the limited abilities on the part of others.

Not that others HAVE limited abilities, just that most CHOOSE not to clutter
with non-functional html for messages.  There are many very good technical
reasons to not use html in groups, and few or none for using html.


Chuck


>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Mike Miller
> <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:
> >
> >> if you want to communicate, you need to send something that we can both
> >> see...
> >
> > Hear, hear! ?Plain text really does work. ?Of course Micrsoft knows that
> > communication works both ways, so they'll try to produce things for the
> > sender that can't be read unless the receiver also has their software.
> > Running counter to your dictum has made them billions.
> >
> > Mike



From sraun at fireopal.org  Sat Jun 12 09:40:05 2010
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:40:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for a 1GB microSD card
Message-ID: <20100612144005.GA7389@fireopal.org>

Anyone have a 1GB microSD card they no longer need, or are willing to
part with for a nominal sum.  I know I can get a 2GB card from
Microcent for $7 - for ... aesthetic reasons I'd like a 1GB card for a
project I'm working on.

-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org


From florin at iucha.net  Sat Jun 12 09:49:24 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 09:49:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] HTML in e-mails
Message-ID: <20100612144923.GF2828@iris.iucha.org>

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 01:00:08AM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of James
> >
> > I had no option because of the limited abilities on the part of others.
> 
> Not that others HAVE limited abilities, just that most CHOOSE not to clutter
> with non-functional html for messages.  There are many very good technical
> reasons to not use html in groups, and few or none for using html.

I was wondering about this very thing earlier in the day: how many
times you found HTML formatting actually useful in a message?

Any competent MUA can color first-level of replies in blue and
underline the hyperlinks.

Besides the memos from marketing and HR and commercial newsletters that
look like glossy brochures, how many times did *you* find that HTML made
something _possible_ or at least _easier_ for you?

My only use of HTML facilities was when highlighting certain parts of
the message in different colors to draw attention at correlations
between some inputs into a process and corresponding outputs. (source code
and error messages are a good example).  But these are few and far
between and I could have written a memo and mailed that around.
I have never dropped a picture in an e-mail except with the intent of
attaching it.  I have never drew a table in an HTML e-mail.

What used have you found for HTML in e-mails?

Thanks,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 10:08:38 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:08:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] CR v LF
In-Reply-To: <E3C1E63E74744677885DDA379AAB9B6A@usicorp.usinternet.com>
References: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com><PLEMLPPLKCCDKLHNBHJBAEGACKAA.popps@primeventures.us><AANLkTikDz3c0U-2f_89k63nhmoMQTANzuyYK1POw-6WJ@mail.gmail.com><20100611145713.GZ2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006111104560.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<E3C1E63E74744677885DDA379AAB9B6A@usicorp.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006120959200.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010, Justin Krejci wrote:

> "Whether the End of line in the book of ASCII is a carriage return, or 
> both a carriage return and a Line feed, the text is yet unchanged.  But 
> the formatting is destroyed, like a culture without morals, it too shall 
> be destroyed.  The better is the single carriage return.  Fewer bits are 
> needed to burst transmit.* "


But seriously....

My understanding is that the history of this is that we have "control 
characters" because they controlled devices, like printers or teletypes. 
The carriage return control character, ctrl-M, moved the carriage return 
to the beginning of the line.  The line feed control character, ctrl-J, 
moved to a new line (which is why it also is called a new line character).

Also:

\r return (CR) carriage return
\n newline (LF) line feed

These two commands do the same thing:

seq 1000000 | xargs printf '%d\r'

seq -s'^M' 1000000

(but the "^M" is a carriage return not two characters -- to get that into 
your command line, type ctrl-v followed by ctrl-m).

See what those commands are doing?  Instead of printing a new line after 
every number, it just moves the cursor to the beginning of the same line 
(carriage return) and writes the new number over the old one.  This is a 
useful thing that I use a lot in scripts:

for blah in $(whatever); do something ;
echo -en "what I did\r"
done

If the carriage return were to be used for new lines (as I think it was in 
the old MacOS), we wouldn't be able to do this.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 10:12:00 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 10:12:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] HTML in e-mails
In-Reply-To: <20100612144923.GF2828@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100612144923.GF2828@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006121008460.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> I was wondering about this very thing earlier in the day: how many times 
> you found HTML formatting actually useful in a message?

Pretty much never.  Here's something I wrote to a friend recently:

"I was just noticing that your signature file, the content of which is 
shown below, is 482 lines long and about 23 KB.  I guess there is 
something amiss with the HTML there.  The text below [identical content to 
his signature] is only 13 lines and about 300 bytes.  Weird, no?"


It turned out that his signature HTML file had been generated by Microsoft 
Word and it included *massive* amounts of unnecessary formatting 
information.

Mike


From nick.traxler at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 14:09:57 2010
From: nick.traxler at gmail.com (Nick Traxler)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:09:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Items for Sale
Message-ID: <4C13DB85.1030909@gmail.com>

Hi All -
I have some old computer equipment for sale. (I had a busier than 
expected week, or I would have posted everything earlier.) The ad text 
for each item is below, along with a link to the craigslist post and 
pictures. Everything is obo; otherwise it's going to the recyclers after 
a few weeks.

Nick

http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/sys/1788589937.html

Tekram PCI SCSI-3 adaptor + hard drives + CD-R + Zip100
Selling some SCSI equipment I don't use anymore. Everything works great, 
but I got a Shuttle case that doesn't have room. Email or call Nick at 
612-226-6836 if interested. $20 for all.

- Tekram DC-390U2W PCI SCSI adaptor
Supports internal and external drives, both 50 and 68-pin. Includes 
card, packaging, manuals, and cables as follows:
68 pin: 1 5-port internal cable w/ terminator, 1 5-port internal w/out 
terminator.
50-pin: 1 3-port internal cable, 1 6-port cable, 1 5-port cable

- Fujitsu 18GB 10K RPM SCSI hard drive. 68-pin LVD interface.

- IBM 9GB 7200 RPM SCSI hard drive. 50-pin SE interface.

- Matsushita SCSI CD-R burner. 8x read, 4x write. 50-pin SE interface. 
Manual included.

- Iomega Zip100 internal SCSI drive (50-pin interface) + 4 100MB ZIP 
disks (I have 2 drives, one has a 5.25" mounting bracket.)
____________
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/sys/1788596513.html

Computer: Pentium3 1GHz SMP 2-processor, GeForce video + more
Selling my Pentium3 2-processor system - I ran Debian Linux on it for 
years, runs great. 30 GB Seagate HD, Pioneer slot-loading DVD drive, 
full details below. All hardware is mounted and running. Email or call 
Nick at 612-226-6836 if interested. $40 for all.

Case: Inwin Q500N ATX full tower case
300 watt Power Man power supply
5 x 5.25" bays
1 x 3.5" external bay
6 x 3.5" internal bays
Includes info sheet, IDE/floppy cables, and all screws and mounting hardware
more information: http://www.targetpc.com/hardware/cases/inwinq500n/

Motherboard: Tyan Tiger 200 SMP motherboard (2 x Socket 370)
Includes manual, driver CD, and all cables
more information: http://www.tyan.com/archive/support/html/b_s2505.html

CPU: 2 x Intel Pentium III 1Ghz Coppermine Socket 370 CPU's
RAM: 512 MB Crucial PC133 SDRAM
Video: eVGA GeForce 4 MX440 64MB AGP video card. Includes manual and 
driver CD
HD: Seagate Barracuda 30GB Parallel ATA hard drive
CD/DVD: Pioneer DVD-106S Parallel ATA slot-loading DVD-ROM drive
____________
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/sys/1788602095.html

15" ADi Microscan 4G CRT monitor. 15-pin VGA D-SUB connector.
Comes with power cord. Image is crisp and clear. Excellent backup 
monitor or second display.
Please email or call Nick at 612-226-6836 if interested. $20.
____________
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/sys/1788599739.html

Fellowes Keyboard Tray - up to 50 lb monitor.
22" across, 14" deep. 2 1/2" vertical clearance in the tray.
Supports up to 50 lbs. No scratches, hasn't been used in years. Comes in 
original packaging. This was a great option for my old desk which had no 
built-in keyboard tray. Frees up desk space and puts the keyboard out of 
sight when it's not being used.

Email or call Nick at 612-226-6836 if interested. $10.
____________
http://minneapolis.craigslist.org/ram/hsh/1788605244.html

Tripod laptop Stand with carrying case - see pictures
Lightweight, folds into compact carrying case. Selling because I don't 
need it in my current work environment.
Excellent condition, no scratches. Please email or call Nick at 
612-226-6836 if interested. $10.


From diablomarcus at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 17:52:08 2010
From: diablomarcus at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 17:52:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Equipment for sale?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1276032161.4c0eb4a137c34@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<AANLkTikvvkJ0odAHu_81pWnnuAGJX6tCXLF_WHzqm4i1@mail.gmail.com>
	<D9FDA4DA05954D7F89FE10395BAA3B99@usicorp.usinternet.com>
	<20100610213307.GT2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<AANLkTikYad_QzQsuHXDeO9qf8KNIPDoEG8i93yGTvaXY@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinFNE_2As85u8u0GmXHgjzVOlcQhYP0PeSrN1g_@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 5:43 PM, T L <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:
> And some of us write on phones where we a) can only top post and b) where
> the reply-to text is uneditable (yuck).


Ouch. It all looks so dirty! My inner-RMS is freaking out about your
personal tracking device. THEY are following you with it.

--Mark Katerberg


From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 12:55:39 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 12:55:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] HTML in e-mails
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006121008460.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20100612144923.GF2828@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006121008460.28187@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikJatv0r9VqnADRert_2S4k2ASqZeVGatobBvFn@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Jun 12, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jun 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:
>
> > I was wondering about this very thing earlier in the day: how many times
> > you found HTML formatting actually useful in a message?
>
> Pretty much never.  Here's something I wrote to a friend recently:
>
>
I find it helpful when I'm writing messages that contain some structure.  I
prefer html-ized lists to ASCII bullets.

That is to say, when the presentation enhances readibility.  For me, that's
worth the HTML or RTF overhead at times.

As for Word/M$-generated HTML, don't get me started.  That stuff's a mess.

-Rob
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jun 14 18:18:30 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 18:18:30 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] problem with rm -i in a bash script
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006141816590.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Have you run into this problem before?  I have one script calling a second 
script.  The second script contains this code:

if [ -e index.html ]; then
    echo -e "\nCtrl-c to preserve old index.html and terminate processing\n"
    echo "enter 'y' to delete index.html, or 'n' to retain the current index.html"
    rm -i index.html
fi


When we get to that section, if index.html exists, this is what we see on 
the screen (I entered the 'y' that's on a line by itself):

Ctrl-c to preserve old index.html and terminate processing

enter 'y' to delete index.html, or 'n' to retain the current index.html
y
rm: remove regular empty file `index.html'?


In other words, it does not show the prompt from "rm -i" until after the 
response has been entered.  Any ideas?  I think it has something to do 
with the fact that the script is called by another script.  If I call the 
script directly from the command line, it behaves just fine.  It would 
make more sense to me if I never saw the prompt, but it does appear, just 
a little too late.

Mike


From jolexa at jolexa.net  Mon Jun 14 19:12:20 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 19:12:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] problem with rm -i in a bash script
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006141816590.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006141816590.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4C16C564.2040502@jolexa.net>

On 06/14/2010 06:18 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> Have you run into this problem before?  I have one script calling a second
> script.  The second script contains this code:
>
> if [ -e index.html ]; then
>      echo -e "\nCtrl-c to preserve old index.html and terminate processing\n"
>      echo "enter 'y' to delete index.html, or 'n' to retain the current index.html"
>      rm -i index.html
> fi
>
>
> When we get to that section, if index.html exists, this is what we see on
> the screen (I entered the 'y' that's on a line by itself):
>
> Ctrl-c to preserve old index.html and terminate processing
>
> enter 'y' to delete index.html, or 'n' to retain the current index.html
> y
> rm: remove regular empty file `index.html'?
>
>
> In other words, it does not show the prompt from "rm -i" until after the
> response has been entered.  Any ideas?  I think it has something to do
> with the fact that the script is called by another script.  If I call the
> script directly from the command line, it behaves just fine.  It would
> make more sense to me if I never saw the prompt, but it does appear, just
> a little too late.

I'm fairly certain it is because echo is printing to stdout and rm -i is 
stderr.

Try "rm -i index.html 2>&1" (redirect stderr to stdout) in your script 
to see if that changes anything. Or, "echo <blah> 1>&2 " to redirect 
stdout to stderr.

I could be wrong here, but it is a hunch.

-Jeremy


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 00:10:15 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:10:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] problem with rm -i in a bash script
In-Reply-To: <4C16C564.2040502@jolexa.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006141816590.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C16C564.2040502@jolexa.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006142351330.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010, Jeremy Olexa wrote:

> On 06/14/2010 06:18 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> Have you run into this problem before?  I have one script calling a 
>> second script.  The second script contains this code:
>>
>> if [ -e index.html ]; then
>>      echo -e "\nCtrl-c to preserve old index.html and terminate processing\n"
>>      echo "enter 'y' to delete index.html, or 'n' to retain the current index.html"
>>      rm -i index.html
>> fi
>>
>>
>> When we get to that section, if index.html exists, this is what we see 
>> on the screen (I entered the 'y' that's on a line by itself):
>>
>> Ctrl-c to preserve old index.html and terminate processing
>>
>> enter 'y' to delete index.html, or 'n' to retain the current index.html
>> y
>> rm: remove regular empty file `index.html'?
>>
>>
>> In other words, it does not show the prompt from "rm -i" until after 
>> the response has been entered.  Any ideas?  I think it has something to 
>> do with the fact that the script is called by another script.  If I 
>> call the script directly from the command line, it behaves just fine. 
>> It would make more sense to me if I never saw the prompt, but it does 
>> appear, just a little too late.
>
> I'm fairly certain it is because echo is printing to stdout and rm -i is 
> stderr.
>
> Try "rm -i index.html 2>&1" (redirect stderr to stdout) in your script 
> to see if that changes anything. Or, "echo <blah> 1>&2 " to redirect 
> stdout to stderr.
>
> I could be wrong here, but it is a hunch.


Some of you will probably want to read the end of this (last three 
commands and ensuing two sentences) and skip the rest...


You are definitely close to getting the answer.  I also was thinking it 
had to do with stderr, but I couldn't figure it out.  There was one really 
important thing that I hadn't said, but only because I had forgotten about 
it (that's what I get for using up-arrow so many times in a row).  That 
is, I was using some redirection on the command line.  Without that, I 
don't have the problem.  Here's what it looked like:

script --options 2>&1 | grep -vE '^Xlib'

That somehow blocks the "rm: remove" prompt until after I respond to it, 
but this works fine:

script --options 2>&1

The way I was seeing it, the use of "2>&1" redirects stderr to stdout so 
that the grep command can operate on what previously was stderr.  It seems 
to work in that I don't get the bothersome Xlib messages, which look like 
this by the way:

Xlib:  extension "RANDR" missing on display ":1.0".
Xlib:  extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":1.0".
Xlib:  extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":1.0".
Xlib:  extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":1.0".
Xlib:  extension "RANDR" missing on display ":1.0".
Xlib:  extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":1.0".
Xlib:  extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":1.0".
Xlib:  extension "Generic Event Extension" missing on display ":1.0".

Pretty much every program that uses X causes those bothersome messages, 
and perhaps many others, to fill up my terminal, so I am constantly doing 
this for X programs...

program &>/dev/null &

...when I want to be doing this:

program &

I think it has something to do with the video driver and maybe the fact 
that I'm doing everything via VNC (over SSH).  Anyway, I remain perplexed 
about why my plan isn't working the way I want for this case.  I don't see 
why grep should block the stderr output from rm, but someone here might 
understand it.  Here's something safe and easy that anyone can try at 
home:

( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1

( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v bar

( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v baz

See what I mean?  Apparently, rm can't send its stderr until the grep 
command has completed, so it just sits there waiting for input.

Best,
Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 00:49:40 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 00:49:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] problem with rm -i in a bash script
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006142351330.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006141816590.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C16C564.2040502@jolexa.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006142351330.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006150035400.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

> Here's something safe and easy that anyone can try at home:
>
> ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1
>
> ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v bar
>
> ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v baz
>
> See what I mean?  Apparently, rm can't send its stderr until the grep 
> command has completed, so it just sits there waiting for input.


If I use cat instead of grep, it's fine.  It has something to do with the 
newline: rm -i doesn't send a newline with the prompt.  Compare the 
behavior of these:

( touch foo ; echo bar 2>&1 ; rm -i foo 2>&1 ) | grep -E '.'

( touch foo ; echo bar | tr -d '\n' 2>&1 ; rm -i foo 2>&1 ) | grep -E '.'

The "bar" is inhibited (somehow by removal of the newline) from appearing 
in the second command until after the response to the prompt, but it 
appears before the response to the prompt in the first command.

More (the "y" is my input):


$ ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | perl -pe 's/\? /? \n/' | grep -E '.'
y
bar
rm: remove regular empty file `foo'?

$ ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -E '.'
bar
y
rm: remove regular empty file `foo'?


Maybe we would be better off if the prompt from "rm -i" sent a newline. 
On the other hand, maybe I should just never use "rm -i" in a script. 
There has to be a better way.

Best,
Mike


From nesius at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 09:34:10 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 09:34:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] problem with rm -i in a bash script
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006150035400.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006141816590.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C16C564.2040502@jolexa.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006142351330.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006150035400.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinUKMFcryB4SkGq6bgJg-yj5QmKXoWciZtecP1D@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:49 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Mike Miller wrote:
>
> > Here's something safe and easy that anyone can try at home:
> >
> > ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1
> >
> > ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v bar
> >
> > ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v baz
> >
> > See what I mean?  Apparently, rm can't send its stderr until the grep
> > command has completed, so it just sits there waiting for input.
>
>
> If I use cat instead of grep, it's fine.  It has something to do with the
> newline: rm -i doesn't send a newline with the prompt.  Compare the
> behavior of these:
>

When doing I/O, remember that underneath the
printf's and readln's are "read" and "write" system calls, and
that these work against buffers.  Output buffers don't flush
until they see a newline, EOF marker, or the file handle
is closed (causing the OS to flush the buffer
as it is deallocated), or the filehandle is the argument of a
system call to force a flush (flush()?).  Correspondingly, a flushed
buffer linked to a file on disk is in turn not yet safely written -
sync or fsync commands are the safe bet there.

A lot of times you will see buffers flush as a program exits
because many programmers don't explicitly close their
file handles and so it's the process-cleanup process that
flushes buffers prior to deallocating the filehandles and - if
necessary - the buffers themselves.

I believe there are ways to configure a filehandle to immediately
flush-through everything that is written.  Of course - that leads
to many more interrupts and is not as efficient, but it is possible.
I'm not sure how to do that though - I haven't had to deal with
I/O at that level for a long time.


> Maybe we would be better off if the prompt from "rm -i" sent a newline.
> On the other hand, maybe I should just never use "rm -i" in a script.
> There has to be a better way.
>
>
I would not use rm -i in a script, ever, mainly just for style reasons.  For

example, it's possible on some unix implementations your script would
work as expected because that implementation of rm does send a new-line,
but then when moving the script somewhere else - whoah - gnu's rm
doesn't send a new-line - whoops!   And maybe some rm's write to stdout,
and some to stderr.  I'd wrap that rm with my own
I/O management code that is (hopefully) more portable and trustworthy.

-Rob
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun 15 12:36:11 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 12:36:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] problem with rm -i in a bash script
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinUKMFcryB4SkGq6bgJg-yj5QmKXoWciZtecP1D@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006141816590.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4C16C564.2040502@jolexa.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006142351330.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006150035400.27138@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<AANLkTinUKMFcryB4SkGq6bgJg-yj5QmKXoWciZtecP1D@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006151232380.12170@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Thanks for the excellent information, Robert.  I did figure out that the 
problem with rm -i is not just with the newline, but probably with the 
kind of thing you are describing -- grep won't write to stdout until it 
either has the newline or some kind of flush signal.  I agree with your 
conclusion -- no more "rm -i" in shell scripts.

Mike


On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 15, 2010 at 12:49 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Jun 2010, Mike Miller wrote:
>>
>>> Here's something safe and easy that anyone can try at home:
>>>
>>> ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1
>>>
>>> ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v bar
>>>
>>> ( touch foo ; echo bar ; rm -i foo ) 2>&1 | grep -v baz
>>>
>>> See what I mean?  Apparently, rm can't send its stderr until the grep
>>> command has completed, so it just sits there waiting for input.
>>
>>
>> If I use cat instead of grep, it's fine.  It has something to do with 
>> the newline: rm -i doesn't send a newline with the prompt.  Compare the 
>> behavior of these:
>>
>
> When doing I/O, remember that underneath the printf's and readln's are 
> "read" and "write" system calls, and that these work against buffers. 
> Output buffers don't flush until they see a newline, EOF marker, or the 
> file handle is closed (causing the OS to flush the buffer as it is 
> deallocated), or the filehandle is the argument of a system call to 
> force a flush (flush()?).  Correspondingly, a flushed buffer linked to a 
> file on disk is in turn not yet safely written - sync or fsync commands 
> are the safe bet there.
>
> A lot of times you will see buffers flush as a program exits because 
> many programmers don't explicitly close their file handles and so it's 
> the process-cleanup process that flushes buffers prior to deallocating 
> the filehandles and - if necessary - the buffers themselves.
>
> I believe there are ways to configure a filehandle to immediately 
> flush-through everything that is written.  Of course - that leads to 
> many more interrupts and is not as efficient, but it is possible. I'm 
> not sure how to do that though - I haven't had to deal with I/O at that 
> level for a long time.
>
>
>> Maybe we would be better off if the prompt from "rm -i" sent a newline. 
>> On the other hand, maybe I should just never use "rm -i" in a script. 
>> There has to be a better way.
>>
>>
> I would not use rm -i in a script, ever, mainly just for style reasons. 
> For example, it's possible on some unix implementations your script 
> would work as expected because that implementation of rm does send a 
> new-line, but then when moving the script somewhere else - whoah - gnu's 
> rm doesn't send a new-line - whoops!  And maybe some rm's write to 
> stdout, and some to stderr.  I'd wrap that rm with my own I/O management 
> code that is (hopefully) more portable and trustworthy.
>
> -Rob


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Wed Jun 23 01:32:00 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 01:32:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP and Radius at Penguins Unbound Meeting Saturday
	June 26th
Message-ID: <4C21AA60.1010709@Goecke-Dolan.com>


This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday June 26st at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

I am trying to put together a meeting about LDAP + Radius + WPA

Loren Chalander will talk about
     * Installing OpenLDAP (Under Ubuntu 10.0.4 server)
     * Initial configuration of OpenLDAP
     * Installing a web-based administration tool
     * Configuring Apache2 to use LDAP for authentication.

I will talk a about what TIES Technical Services have done
with LDAP and Radius.

And I hope to have some talk about Radius and WPA

Hope to see you there!

==>brian.

BTW.  I need a speaker for July, if you have something you would be 
willing to share, please let me know.  Thanks.


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Jun 23 15:02:41 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 15:02:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] firewall arp issue
Message-ID: <4C226861.30508@lctn.org>

I am using an IPCop  box (Red/Green) with multiple alias public IPs on 
the red interface. After many months of use,  it just started assigning 
the mac address of the green interface to one of the aliases on the red 
interface-some sort of arping bleed over. I believe there is an iptables 
command or something that fixes it, but not sure what it is.

Any ideas?


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Jun 25 05:46:02 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 05:46:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP and Radius at Penguins Unbound Meeting Saturday
	June 26th
Message-ID: <4C2488EA.2010400@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday June 26st at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

The meeting will be about LDAP + Radius + WPA

Loren Cahlander will talk about
     * Installing OpenLDAP (Under Ubuntu 10.0.4 server)
     * Initial configuration of OpenLDAP
     * Installing a web-based administration tool
     * Configuring Apache2 to use LDAP for authentication.

I will talk a about what TIES Technical Services have done
with LDAP and Radius.

And I hope to have some talk about Radius and WPA

Hope to see you there!

==>brian.

BTW.  I need a speaker for July, if you have something you would be
willing to share, please let me know.  Thanks.


From loren.cahlander at gmail.com  Sat Jun 26 14:39:12 2010
From: loren.cahlander at gmail.com (Loren Cahlander)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 14:39:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP and Radius at Penguins Unbound Meeting
	Saturday June 26th
In-Reply-To: <4C2488EA.2010400@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <4C2488EA.2010400@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <6E98788E-2A9E-4460-B46A-6E0D355A24FA@gmail.com>

Script for harvesting mailing lists from ldap:

==================================================
#!/usr/bin/perl
use Net::LDAP;

my $addr = "localhost";
my $user = "cn=admin,dc=exist-db,dc=org";
my $pass = "1234";
my %grouphash = ( 
		"Mailman", "dba", 
		"Backup", "backup-access", 
		"Svn-commit", "svn-update,svn-readonly");

my $ldap = Net::LDAP->new($addr) or die "Unable to connect to LDAP server";
my $login = $ldap->bind($user, password=> $pass);

for my $mailinglist (keys %grouphash) {
	my @groups = split(/,/, $grouphash{$mailinglist});
        my %emailhash = ();
	for my $ldapgroup (@groups) {
		my $mesg = $ldap->search(filter=>"(cn= $ldapgroup)", 
			base=>"ou=Groups,dc=exist-db,dc=org", 
			scope => "sub",
			attrs => ['memberUid']
			);
		my @entries = $mesg->entries;

		foreach my $entry (@entries) {
        		my @attrs = $entry->attributes();
			my @memberIds = $entry->get_value("memberUid");
        		foreach my $memberUid (@memberIds) {
				my $mesg1 = $ldap->search(filter=>"(uid= $memberUid)", 
							base=>"ou=Users,dc=exist-db,dc=org", 
							attrs => ['mail']
							);
				my @userEntries = $mesg1->entries;
				foreach my $userEntry (@userEntries) {
					my $email = $userEntry->get_value("mail");
					if ($email) {
						$emailhash{$email} = 1;
					}
				}
        		}
		}
	}
	open(FILE, ">/tmp/$mailinglist.txt");
	foreach my $email (keys %emailhash) {
		print FILE "$email\n";
	}
	close(FILE);
	my @args = ("/usr/sbin/sync_members", "-f", "/tmp/$mailinglist.txt", $mailinglist);
	system(@args) == 0 or die "system @args failed: $?";
	print $mailinglist . ":(" . join(",", keys %emailhash) .")\n";
	sleep 1;
}
==================================================

On Jun 25, 2010, at 05:46 AM, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:

> This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
> Saturday June 26st at TIES,
> 1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
> from 10:00am to 12:00pm
> (See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
> info.)
> 
> The meeting will be about LDAP + Radius + WPA
> 
> Loren Cahlander will talk about
>     * Installing OpenLDAP (Under Ubuntu 10.0.4 server)
>     * Initial configuration of OpenLDAP
>     * Installing a web-based administration tool
>     * Configuring Apache2 to use LDAP for authentication.
> 
> I will talk a about what TIES Technical Services have done
> with LDAP and Radius.
> 
> And I hope to have some talk about Radius and WPA
> 
> Hope to see you there!
> 
> ==>brian.
> 
> BTW.  I need a speaker for July, if you have something you would be
> willing to share, please let me know.  Thanks.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From admin at lctn.org  Sat Jun 26 16:31:53 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 16:31:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] LDAP and Radius at Penguins Unbound
 Meeting	Saturday June 26th
In-Reply-To: <6E98788E-2A9E-4460-B46A-6E0D355A24FA@gmail.com>
References: <4C2488EA.2010400@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<6E98788E-2A9E-4460-B46A-6E0D355A24FA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C2671C9.9000706@lctn.org>

Thank you Loren for your presentation. I am confident I will be looking 
over your docs on the wiki.

Raymond


From strayf at freeshell.org  Sat Jun 26 19:47:56 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Sat, 26 Jun 2010 19:47:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Magazines to good home
Message-ID: <4C269FBC.2000804@freeshell.org>

Hi,

I'm moving to the West Coast and don't want to haul a bunch of magazines
with me. Is anyone interested in 7 years of Linux Journal (2003 -
current) magazines and the last few years of SysAdmin (2004 - 2007,
before they went out of production)?

-Steve


From strayf at freeshell.org  Sun Jun 27 00:21:47 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 00:21:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Magazines to good home
In-Reply-To: <4C269FBC.2000804@freeshell.org>
References: <4C269FBC.2000804@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <4C26DFEB.5080903@freeshell.org>

They're spoken for.
-Steve

Steve Cayford wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm moving to the West Coast and don't want to haul a bunch of magazines
> with me. Is anyone interested in 7 years of Linux Journal (2003 -
> current) magazines and the last few years of SysAdmin (2004 - 2007,
> before they went out of production)?
> 
> -Steve
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sun Jun 27 15:29:48 2010
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 15:29:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] July Penguins Unbound Meeting
Message-ID: <AANLkTinnNWjUg0EEzetEVh3ysey3p5E9acbtFwwgrcCF@mail.gmail.com>

Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:
> BTW.  I need a speaker for July, if you have something you would be
> willing to share, please let me know.  Thanks.
>

I'd be happy to give a 15 to 20 minute talk on the C++ Middleware
Writer -- an on line code generator that outputs low-level C++
marshalling code based on user input.

Regards,
Brian Wood
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384


Additionally in an effort to find more users, I'm willing to assist you
(volunteer)  20 hours a week for six months on your ethical project --
http://webEbenezer.net/TorahConnections.html.


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sun Jun 27 19:17:55 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:17:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
Message-ID: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

I don't get it.  "Upgrading" the Windows OS inevitably means downgrading the speed and stability.  I'm part of the local IEEE's Project Phoenix group, and we have an old laptop with only 256 MB of RAM and a 500 MHz processor.  This laptop originally had Windows 98, which was upgraded to 2000 and then to XP.  I'm sure the laptop was fast with Windows 98, but it was slow with XP on it.  In my opinion, putting XP in a computer from the Windows 98 era was as dumb as moving a small 4-cylinder engine from a Honda Civic to a Lincoln Town Car.  Just as that small engine would be overtaxed and the Lincoln would be as slow as molassas, that laptop was overtaxed, and Windows XP was as slow as molassas.

I don't think Windows really gets better with each version.  Windows 98 didn't seem that much better than Windows 95.  Windows XP doesn't seem that much better than Windows 98.  I have never used Vista or Windows 7.  I do know that Vista is MUCH heavier than XP and 7 is comparable to Vista.

Thus, in my opinion, "upgrading" a Windows OS on a computer is just as idiotic as installing a 4-cylinder engine in a Lincoln Town Car.  At least everyone recognizes the idiocy of the latter feat, which I doubt has ever been done.

I've since made the REAL upgrade to the old laptop.  I installed antiX Linux, which I consider to be the gold standard for distros.  antiX Linux is lightweight enough for computers from the Windows 98 era, yet is user-friendly and is compatible with the superior Debian software respository (which you need for engineering).  antiX Linux version M8.2 also works with our WPC54GS v1.1 wireless card.

-- 
Jason Hsu
http://www.jasonhsu.com/ee.html
http://www.jasonhsu.com/swrwatt.html
http://embeddedengineer.wordpress.com/
http://www.jasonhsu.com/linux.html


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Sun Jun 27 21:02:01 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 02:02:01 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
In-Reply-To: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <1705959148-1277690553-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1998348000-@bda2583.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

MS Patching, software compatibility, and some people just want the latest bits. Though on second thought the last item may not apply too well if they are still using older hardware as in your scenario then they are not likely an upgrade freak, is there a "phile" term for people who always want the cutting edge bits and hardware?

Quad hex-core CPUs are quick with 128 GB of RAM. A few of these tied to a SAN is quite nice for vmware. They run all existing versions of windows os just fine, though in about 10 years may not meet the minimum req's for windows 2020.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: "Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user" <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 19:17:55 
To: <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?

I don't get it.  "Upgrading" the Windows OS inevitably means downgrading the speed and stability.  I'm part of the local IEEE's Project Phoenix group, and we have an old laptop with only 256 MB of RAM and a 500 MHz processor.  This laptop originally had Windows 98, which was upgraded to 2000 and then to XP.  I'm sure the laptop was fast with Windows 98, but it was slow with XP on it.  In my opinion, putting XP in a computer from the Windows 98 era was as dumb as moving a small 4-cylinder engine from a Honda Civic to a Lincoln Town Car.  Just as that small engine would be overtaxed and the Lincoln would be as slow as molassas, that laptop was overtaxed, and Windows XP was as slow as molassas.

I don't think Windows really gets better with each version.  Windows 98 didn't seem that much better than Windows 95.  Windows XP doesn't seem that much better than Windows 98.  I have never used Vista or Windows 7.  I do know that Vista is MUCH heavier than XP and 7 is comparable to Vista.

Thus, in my opinion, "upgrading" a Windows OS on a computer is just as idiotic as installing a 4-cylinder engine in a Lincoln Town Car.  At least everyone recognizes the idiocy of the latter feat, which I doubt has ever been done.

I've since made the REAL upgrade to the old laptop.  I installed antiX Linux, which I consider to be the gold standard for distros.  antiX Linux is lightweight enough for computers from the Windows 98 era, yet is user-friendly and is compatible with the superior Debian software respository (which you need for engineering).  antiX Linux version M8.2 also works with our WPC54GS v1.1 wireless card.

-- 
Jason Hsu
http://www.jasonhsu.com/ee.html
http://www.jasonhsu.com/swrwatt.html
http://embeddedengineer.wordpress.com/
http://www.jasonhsu.com/linux.html

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sun Jun 27 21:23:57 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:23:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like Microsoft?
Message-ID: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

I find it ironic that Linux set out to be the bloatware buster, but the leading distros have themselves become bloatware.  Just look how much the hardware requirements have escalated in the history of Ubuntu, Fedora, and many other leading distros.  There was a time when 256 MB of RAM was plenty.  In fact, my very first distro was Fedora Core 1 (which came with the book _Linux For Nongeeks_).  On this computer (1 GHz, 256 MB of RAM), Fedora Core 1 was reasonably fast.  This computer falls short of the requirements of today's Fedora.  I don't recommend Ubuntu (or even Xubuntu) for anyone with less than 512 MB of RAM.

As these leading distros increase their hardware requirements with each version and cut off support for older versions, they're throwing away a segment of their users.

Why do these distros need so much more RAM and processor speed?  What's driving the escalating hardware requirements?

I'm glad that there is antiX Linux.  This is my primary OS.  antiX Linux has compatibility with the superior Debian repository (unlike Puppy Linux, which still has a weak repository), user-friendliness (unlike Debian, which requires so much tweaking), AND is plenty fast with only 256 MB of RAM.

The success of antiX Linux makes me wonder why other distros have much higher hardware requirements.  What exactly do the users get for their extra processor speed and RAM?  Why do these other distros need more processor speed and RAM to do the same thing that antiX Linux does?

-- 
Jason Hsu
http://www.jasonhsu.com/ee.html
http://www.jasonhsu.com/swrwatt.html
http://embeddedengineer.wordpress.com/
http://www.jasonhsu.com/linux.html


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sun Jun 27 21:49:01 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Sun, 27 Jun 2010 21:49:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
Message-ID: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

What distros were your main distro in the past but are not your distro anymore?

I currently use antiX Linux as my main distro and Puppy Linux as my backup distro.  My former main distros are:
1.  Fedora Core 1: This was my first distro, which came with a book.  The speed and user-friendliness help draw me into Linux.  However, many things didn't work, such as Flash, and I wasn't up to figuring it out.
2.  Damn Small Linux: It was lightweight (only 50MB) and FAST.  Most operations were user-friendly.  However, I could only get Flash 7 to work, as Flash 9 was so unstable as to be useless.
3.  Puppy Linux: Puppy Linux is also lightweight and FAST.  I first tried Puppy Linux in 2007 (version 2.xx days), and I was having difficulty getting things to work properly, so I gave up.  I really liked the concept, and Puppy Linux really won me over in late 2008 (version 4.xx days), as the earlier bugs had been fixed.  The weakness of Puppy Linux is its small repository.  Version 5 is only compatible with a few of the Ubuntu packages.  While the repository is better now, Puppy Linux still can't compete with antiX Linux, Ubuntu, or Debian in this area.
4.  Ubuntu: I haven't used it as a full installation.  It's not as bloated when you start with the command-line-only version and add packages.  However, this means sacrificing Ubuntu's legendary user-friendliness.

antiX Linux is my main distro, because it's fast on 256 MB of RAM (like Damn Small Linux and Puppy Linux), it's user-friendly (like Puppy Linux), AND it has a superior repository (unlike Puppy Linux and Damn Small Linux).  No other distro I've tried (Debian, CrunchBang, TinyCore, Dreamlinux, and SliTaz) measures up to antiX Linux on all of these measures.  Of course, I'm on the lookout for a replacement just in case antiX Linux fades away.

-- 
Jason Hsu
http://www.jasonhsu.com/ee.html
http://www.jasonhsu.com/swrwatt.html
http://embeddedengineer.wordpress.com/
http://www.jasonhsu.com/linux.html


From danyberg at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 04:08:30 2010
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 04:08:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] PXE server
Message-ID: <AANLkTimpdIUntHUKDaxImNI0bI-an0AiMLh81DVMorX9@mail.gmail.com>

I just picked up a Toshiba Portege m200 and while I did get the Installation
CD, there are no drives other than the hard drive on this thing.  It won't
even boot with USB.  It will boot over the network, and now all I need is to
figure out how to do that. Does anyone know of a good tutorial or set of
instructions that will work with my Fedora 13 installation?
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From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 09:40:59 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 09:40:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
	Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilekeQK3-3orR84J-SywLWewLGc-NvK9Sg7F-be@mail.gmail.com>

It might not feel like you're trolling, but I think you (unintentionally?)
are.  In any case...

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:23 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <
jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I find it ironic that Linux set out to be the bloatware buster,


Linux set out to be a hobby/experiment in building an OS (specifically the
kernel as Linus was already leveraging GNU before his first big release) to
fill a gap between Minix (not useful enough in the eyes of Linux) and GNU's
kernel (too far out in the future (more than he knew)).   Anyway, go read
for yourself. https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/rhasan/linux/ and other sources.

Bottom line, what Linux became was far beyond the vision of its creator.


> but the leading distros have themselves become bloatware.  Just look how
> much the hardware requirements have escalated in the history of Ubuntu,
> Fedora, and many other leading distros.  There was a time when 256 MB of RAM
> was plenty.  In fact, my very first distro was Fedora Core 1 (which came
> with the book _Linux For Nongeeks_).  On this computer (1 GHz, 256 MB of
> RAM), Fedora Core 1 was reasonably fast.  This computer falls short of the
> requirements of today's Fedora.  I don't recommend Ubuntu (or even Xubuntu)
> for anyone with less than 512 MB of RAM.
>

Just look how far hardware has advanced since the 1990's.  4GB of RAM can be
had cheaply, and 6GB is becoming the new base-line.  500GB seems to be the
bottom of most product line-ups for hard-disk vendors, etc....  and then
there is Moore's Law for CPUs.  And with that power computers do many more
things now, with video, audio, GUI's, etc...



> As these leading distros increase their hardware requirements with each
> version and cut off support for older versions, they're throwing away a
> segment of their users.
>

And arguably gaining more users with the enhanced functionality that people
take for granted in modern OS environments.  But that doesn't mean the
old-school "CLI and TWM 4ever" crowd has been left in the dust - choices
exist for you too. :)


> Why do these distros need so much more RAM and processor speed?  What's
> driving the escalating hardware requirements?
>

Don't forget that in addition to the enhanced functionality being supported,
developers are using enhanced tool-streams that do more of the dirty work
for them at the expense of larger overhead in the runtime environment and
tool chains.


> I'm glad that there is antiX Linux.


\o/

The success of antiX Linux makes me wonder why other distros have much
> higher hardware requirements.  What exactly do the users get for their extra
> processor speed and RAM?  Why do these other distros need more processor
> speed and RAM to do the same thing that antiX Linux does?
>

I see it's using IceWM, not KDE or Gnome (a big source of bloat AND
functionality :) ).   One of the gaps most distros fill in are
administrative GUI's, etc...  what does AntiX provide for managing users,
groups, disks, networks, and services?

Anti-x looks like a nifty distro for a niche.  Don't know if I'll ever need
it.

Embedded engineers tend to see the world through a more hardware-centric
lens.  For them the draw is the mechanism (hardware) as well as the
functionality.  So your focus is understandable.

-Rob
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From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Jun 28 11:25:22 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 11:25:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] PXE server
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimpdIUntHUKDaxImNI0bI-an0AiMLh81DVMorX9@mail.gmail.com>;
	from danyberg@gmail.com on Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 04:08:30AM -0500
References: <AANLkTimpdIUntHUKDaxImNI0bI-an0AiMLh81DVMorX9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100628112522.B31197@real-time.com>

On 06/28 04:08 , swede wrote:
> I just picked up a Toshiba Portege m200 and while I did get the Installation
> CD, there are no drives other than the hard drive on this thing.  It won't
> even boot with USB.  It will boot over the network, and now all I need is to
> figure out how to do that. Does anyone know of a good tutorial or set of
> instructions that will work with my Fedora 13 installation?

This is just the beginning, but it was a long time ago that I last did this
and memory fails.

You'll first need to set up a DHCP and TFTP server. Get the MAC for your
hardware, and put an entry into your dhcpd.conf file something like this:

host xterm {
  hardware ethernet 00:80:96:04:87:72;
  fixed-address 192.168.1.45;
  filename "/tftpboot/path/to/netboot/kernel";
  next-server 192.168.1.10;
}

Obviously substitute the MAC for your own, and set up a TFTP server (on the
IP address listed after 'next-server') to serve up your new kernel and its
associated boot files. 

You'll have to build a Linux kernel that netboots (and runs your installer);
and at that point my knowlege is too old and bit-rotted to be useful.

A simpler solution would be to pull the hard drive from the laptop and put
it into a different machine that did have a CD-ROM drive. Do your install on
the other machine and move the drive back to the Toshiba laptop. Linux isn't
so sensitive to hardware changes as Windows; so swapping hardware out from
under the OS isn't usually a problem.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 13:24:28 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:24:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 23
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1277744402.12698.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1277744402.12698.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil8ar2IK3rxcc69OQvz2ll4adJuck_mfam-nnZE@mail.gmail.com>

11.5. Manually configure a PXE server
The following steps must be performed to prepare for a PXE installation:

   1. Configure the network (NFS, FTP, HTTP) server to export the
   installation tree.
   2. Configure the files on the tftp server necessary for PXE booting.
   3. Configure which hosts are allowed to boot from the PXE configuration.
   4. Start the tftp service.
   5. Configure DHCP.
   6. Boot the client, and start the installation.

You can boot from anything you want to use. It is in the Fedora docs
> online.


http://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/13/html/Installation_Guide/ap-install-server.html
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 13:37:39 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:37:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 66, Issue 22
In-Reply-To: <mailman.20152.1277736110.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.20152.1277736110.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <AANLkTim1ZotrCa0aCR-EL8b4bwPHMiqf2Io8c4JEQXcr@mail.gmail.com>

I like Linux distros with the package option in the install. A no
frills Mandriva free. No desktop just a command line. Or fedora with out a
desktop.  Wen I want all the fancy graphics I will use Ubuntu or Mint. The
best thing is having choices that is what draws people to Linux. I am not
really worried that ubunut is going to slow down my i7 desktop. I am going
to try antix after hearing you oath to it :D
, Ron
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From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 14:15:03 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:15:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] PXE server
In-Reply-To: <20100628112522.B31197@real-time.com>
References: <AANLkTimpdIUntHUKDaxImNI0bI-an0AiMLh81DVMorX9@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100628112522.B31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimapYP4USUH_BjWkjLJcroa6UZmFTV72O_UKewL@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
<chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> You'll first need to set up a DHCP and TFTP server. Get the MAC for your
> hardware, and put an entry into your dhcpd.conf file something like this:
>
> host xterm {
> ?hardware ethernet 00:80:96:04:87:72;
> ?fixed-address 192.168.1.45;
> ?filename "/tftpboot/path/to/netboot/kernel";
> ?next-server 192.168.1.10;
> }

Not bad for pulling that off the top of your head.

For best results Use PXELinux, which consists of a pxelinux.0 and
pxelinux.cfg/default file to do all the dirty work:

> host xterm {
>  hardware ethernet 00:80:96:04:87:72;
>  fixed-address 192.168.1.45;
>  filename "/tftpboot/pxelinux.0";
>  next-server 192.168.1.10;
> }

The main thing is passing the 'next-server' directive, almost every
DHCP server has this function but of course they're all different
syntax's.  Obviously you'll need an accebible TFTP server for this to
work.

You don't need to rebuild kernels and initrds for this stuff anymore.
Most distros have a netboot package (just a kernel and initrd).  You
can set these up in the pxelinux.cfg/default file, which looks just
like a syslinux config if you've ever mucked with that.

> A simpler solution would be to pull the hard drive from the laptop and put
> it into a different machine that did have a CD-ROM drive. Do your install on
> the other machine and move the drive back to the Toshiba laptop. Linux isn't
> so sensitive to hardware changes as Windows; so swapping hardware out from
> under the OS isn't usually a problem.

Or just plop the netboot kernel and initrd packages on the drive, then
install in the laptop.  Less mucking around that way.

I built myself a home PXE server about 6 months ago, and I LOVE IT.  I
can net install debian/ubuntu/fedora as well as running DBAN and
memtest with no need for media.  Everyone needs one.  Really.

Brian


From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Mon Jun 28 15:20:18 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 15:20:18 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
In-Reply-To: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1006281517530.5520@bobs_laptop.LCL.local>

Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user cried from the depths of the abyss...

> we have an old laptop with only 256 MB of RAM and a 500 MHz processor.

For the love of God Man!!!!




From galanolwe at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 28 15:57:21 2010
From: galanolwe at yahoo.com (Olwe Bottorff)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:57:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
	Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <164941.71084.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

I'm rather agnostic about computer power. On the one hand, why are we worrying about such things as bigger and better gadgetry when we don't even know where the energy to power all this stuff is coming from in five, ten years? And headroom? There's been plenty of room and power since the late '90s, i.e., do we really need such gains in speed and power when most users don't really have *serious* need for it?
When I started out, you either were a cs major with access to shiny, networked Unix workstations, or you were a peasant autodidact trying to scrape along with stand-alone PC stuff (DOS, then early Windows, Basic, Turbo C++, etc), maybe fooling around with modems and bulletin board silliness. I remember when 16mg of memory -- the minimum required for the first WinNT -- had finally come down to just $600.!!! And yeah, you hocked your soul for it because you wanted to get into some form of networking -- without spending the money for very pricey Novell training. There were hot copies of SCO floating around, but NT was only ~$250. And then came the Windows Dev Kit, all 38,531 floppy disks of it copyable.
Around '92-'93 some grad students at U of Washington had befriended me and let me play on their Sun stations (the old pizza boxes with the massive 100lb CRTs!), and that was like being a grown-up. I was so excited! Then one day one of the grown-ups said he'd heard of this Linux thing and that I could probably put it on my puny little 486 with its $600 worth of 16mg memory. Unfortunately, the video card (256k) was too weak-unsupported, so back to MS-land for me. But hey, MS was hiring and I got temp spots with The Beast off-and-on until '95.
Then I got married and followed my wife out to U of Missouri where she was doing a grad degree. I got hired by Campus Computing--and FINALLY! I got my hands on some serious Unix! Mizzou had worked a deal with SGI for a stable of sleek, shiny SGI workstations, and I got my very own. Linux was also coming in the campus mix, so yes, Mizzou was a Unixae sorta place, back-end-wise. And from there I never left Unix/Linux shops.
I hope there's always a "Linux for the Poor." I remember being poor (then rich, then poor, then rich, then poor ...) and yeah, being able to get into (and stay with) computing should be affordable and accessible to us frugal and/or unwashen types.
Olwe Bottorff
Grand Marais, MN
--- On Sun, 6/27/10, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

From: Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like Microsoft?
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Date: Sunday, June 27, 2010, 9:23 PM

I find it ironic that Linux set out to be the bloatware buster, but the leading distros have themselves become bloatware.? Just look how much the hardware requirements have escalated in the history of Ubuntu, Fedora, and many other leading distros.? There was a time when 256 MB of RAM was plenty.? In fact, my very first distro was Fedora Core 1 (which came with the book _Linux For Nongeeks_).? On this computer (1 GHz, 256 MB of RAM), Fedora Core 1 was reasonably fast.? This computer falls short of the requirements of today's Fedora.? I don't recommend Ubuntu (or even Xubuntu) for anyone with less than 512 MB of RAM.

As these leading distros increase their hardware requirements with each version and cut off support for older versions, they're throwing away a segment of their users.

Why do these distros need so much more RAM and processor speed?? What's driving the escalating hardware requirements?

I'm glad that there is antiX Linux.? This is my primary OS.? antiX Linux has compatibility with the superior Debian repository (unlike Puppy Linux, which still has a weak repository), user-friendliness (unlike Debian, which requires so much tweaking), AND is plenty fast with only 256 MB of RAM.

The success of antiX Linux makes me wonder why other distros have much higher hardware requirements.? What exactly do the users get for their extra processor speed and RAM?? Why do these other distros need more processor speed and RAM to do the same thing that antiX Linux does?

-- 
Jason Hsu
http://www.jasonhsu.com/ee.html
http://www.jasonhsu.com/swrwatt.html
http://embeddedengineer.wordpress.com/
http://www.jasonhsu.com/linux.html

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



      
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From galanolwe at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 28 16:02:25 2010
From: galanolwe at yahoo.com (Olwe Bottorff)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 14:02:25 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1006281517530.5520@bobs_laptop.LCL.local>
Message-ID: <924920.98232.qm@web57005.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

With that kinda iron you could run stumpwm. It's a tiler running on sbcl Lisp. I went to their website and their motto is: "If you're wasting screen space, you're ridin' with Hitler."
Olwe

--- On Mon, 6/28/10, Mr. B-o-B <mkebob1134 at netscape.net> wrote:

From: Mr. B-o-B <mkebob1134 at netscape.net>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Monday, June 28, 2010, 3:20 PM

Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user cried from the depths of the abyss...

> we have an old laptop with only 256 MB of RAM and a 500 MHz processor.

For the love of God Man!!!!



_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



      
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From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Jun 28 16:29:35 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:29:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
	Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <164941.71084.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>;
	from galanolwe@yahoo.com on Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 01:57:21PM -0700
References: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<164941.71084.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>

I still use a couple of Linux boxen that are 10+ years old now as my
everyday workstations. Debian on both of them.

Amazing how Enlightenment has gone from a 'massive and heavyweight
bloatware' to 'lean' by comparison to the new window managers/desktop
environments.

The limiting factor now is basically the web. Websites have become so
bloated with massive Flash animations and shoddy javascript that some of
them can bring your box to a crawl. Youtube is now the reason why I'm trying
to scrape together money for a new computer... 1.1GHz K7 with 1.25GB RAM is
just not up to the task of youtube anymore. (and Facebook and Gmail have
their bad days as well).

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Jun 28 16:43:31 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:43:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
 Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<164941.71084.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20100628164331.664dee0b.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

I'm not sure that ANY amount of RAM is enough to handle Flash animations or scripts gone awry.  There are people with a few GB of RAM who are complaining that these animations and scripts bog down their computer.

The thing to do is to use Flash-blocker and script-blocker software to disable animations and scripts by default.  (They still provide the option of enabling the animations and scripts that you want executed.)  I use the Debian packages xul-ext-noscript and xul-ext-flashblock in anitX Linux.  These two packages work with Iceape and Iceweasel.

In my opinion, all Linux distros should provide Flash-blocker and script-blocker software by default, and all web browser packages should include the blocking software by default.  The modest amount processor power and RAM used by these packages is a drop in the bucket compared to what out-of-control animations and scripts do.

In my opinion, people who insist on putting Flash and scripts into their pages should turn them off by default (make them opt-in rather than opt-out) or at least make sure these things run properly.  You really have to wonder if some of the people out there who write web pages actually try to read them.  At least MY web site won't bog down your browser.

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:29:35 -0500
Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <chrome at real-time.com> wrote:

> I still use a couple of Linux boxen that are 10+ years old now as my
> everyday workstations. Debian on both of them.
> 
> Amazing how Enlightenment has gone from a 'massive and heavyweight
> bloatware' to 'lean' by comparison to the new window managers/desktop
> environments.
> 
> The limiting factor now is basically the web. Websites have become so
> bloated with massive Flash animations and shoddy javascript that some of
> them can bring your box to a crawl. Youtube is now the reason why I'm trying
> to scrape together money for a new computer... 1.1GHz K7 with 1.25GB RAM is
> just not up to the task of youtube anymore. (and Facebook and Gmail have
> their bad days as well).
> 
> -- 
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


-- 
Jason Hsu
http://www.jasonhsu.com/ee.html
http://www.jasonhsu.com/swrwatt.html
http://embeddedengineer.wordpress.com/
http://www.jasonhsu.com/linux.html


From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Jun 28 16:50:29 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:50:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
	Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <20100628164331.664dee0b.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>;
	from jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com on Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 04:43:31PM
	-0500
References: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<164941.71084.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>
	<20100628164331.664dee0b.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <20100628165029.D31197@real-time.com>

On 06/28 04:43 , Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> The thing to do is to use Flash-blocker and script-blocker software to
> disable animations and scripts by default.  (They still provide the option
> of enabling the animations and scripts that you want executed.)  I use the
> Debian packages xul-ext-noscript and xul-ext-flashblock in anitX Linux.
> These two packages work with Iceape and Iceweasel.

Yep, I use the flashblock plug-in to make firefox manageable most of the
time. However, if I want to watch Youtube, even with the video scaled down
and at the lowest resolution level, it's nearly unusable with a 1.1GHz
processor. I end up using my laptop for watching videos, but it's a hassle
to use 2 computers to do the job of one.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 16:59:22 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 16:59:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
 Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<164941.71084.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006281658450.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> The limiting factor now is basically the web. Websites have become so 
> bloated with massive Flash animations and shoddy javascript that some of 
> them can bring your box to a crawl. Youtube is now the reason why I'm 
> trying to scrape together money for a new computer... 1.1GHz K7 with 
> 1.25GB RAM is just not up to the task of youtube anymore. (and Facebook 
> and Gmail have their bad days as well).


I find myself doing this several times per day:

pkill npviewer.bin

It helps a lot.

Mike


From andyzib at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 17:13:35 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 17:13:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
In-Reply-To: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinGNTYqxDwL8M6K2-1rREbTkUfnLTnRnYg4myFC@mail.gmail.com>

I don't get it...

Are you trying to

- Troll or start a flame war?
- Promote IEEE's Project Phoenix?
- Promote antiX Linux?
- Be "cool" in front of the LUGgies by bashing Microsoft?

Extremely limited success in all cases I'm afraid.

All your opinions are built on the base of an old laptop with 256 MB
of RAM and a 500 MHz processor. That's what, circa 1998-99?

A better analogy for your situation would be trying to put the engine
(Windows 7) of a 2009 Lincoln Towncar (PC Hardware) into a 1998
Lincoln Towncar. It's still a Lincoln automobile (x86 Compatible PC)
but the 2010 engine (Windows 7) isn't going to work with the drive
train and electronics (the PC hardware) of the 1998 Lincoln that was
designed around the 1998 engine (Windows 98).

The facts of the Lincoln analogy might not work out, I'm not going to
look up when Ford actually retooled the production lines, but the auto
industry seems to go with a 10 year ROI on retooling production lines
so it seems quite likely that a 11 year span between models is a safe
bet. And if not there should be no problem finding a make and model
that of auto that had it's production line retooled between 1998 and
2009. :-)

Have fun Mr. Embedded Engineer. You live in a world that is vastly
different and resource restricted from the mainstream.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 19:25:22 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:25:22 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTinGNTYqxDwL8M6K2-1rREbTkUfnLTnRnYg4myFC@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTinGNTYqxDwL8M6K2-1rREbTkUfnLTnRnYg4myFC@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006281909230.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Andrew S. Zbikowski wrote:

> I don't get it...
>
> Are you trying to
>
> - Troll or start a flame war?

I don't know about the OP, but that is what you are doing, right?


> - Promote IEEE's Project Phoenix?

That seemed to be a side remark, but I'd like to hear more about that 
project.  It sounds like it's about keeping old hardware working.  That is 
definitely a worthwhile effort, in my book.


> - Promote antiX Linux?

There!  I think you've got it.  He was explicit promoting it, wasn't he?


> - Be "cool" in front of the LUGgies by bashing Microsoft?

I liked it.  More seriously, I thought it was a pretty good argument and I 
haven't heard enough about that.  It does seem like Microsoft is in 
cahoots with Intel to push users to dump their old machines.


> Extremely limited success in all cases I'm afraid.

How can you know that?  There are a lot of readers on this list.  I read 
his message about antiX Linux, I looked it up on the web, and I'm thinking 
of replacing Xubuntu with antiX Linux on an old machine.  Xubuntu really 
drags on that box.  So, for me, I think he was successful.


> All your opinions are built on the base of an old laptop with 256 MB of 
> RAM and a 500 MHz processor. That's what, circa 1998-99?

In a message he sent on February 1, 2010, he described it as an 
11-year-old laptop.  So, yes, it must be something like 1999.  I have one 
from that era too and I'd like to make it work.  Why not?  I hate to throw 
away a working laptop and Windows definitely won't cut it -- it won't even 
run XP properly.


> Have fun Mr. Embedded Engineer. You live in a world that is vastly 
> different and resource restricted from the mainstream.

Are you trying to

- Troll or start a flame war?
- Be "cool" in front of the LUGgies by bashing this guy?

Mike


From jjensen at apache.org  Mon Jun 28 19:55:25 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 19:55:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be
	like	Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>	<164941.71084.qm@web57007.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<20100628162935.C31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <003001cb1725$c695dc90$53c195b0$@org>

For 10 years I had a Pentium 75 with 40M RAM as my main personal home file
server running Red Hat Linux (pre-Fedora and Enterprise).  Worked flawlessly
until last fall when something with an extension board flaked.  Still have
it - collecting dust at the moment...


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Carl Wilhelm
Soderstrom
Sent: Monday, June 28, 2010 4:30 PM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
Microsoft?

I still use a couple of Linux boxen that are 10+ years old now as my
everyday workstations. Debian on both of them.

Amazing how Enlightenment has gone from a 'massive and heavyweight
bloatware' to 'lean' by comparison to the new window managers/desktop
environments.

The limiting factor now is basically the web. Websites have become so
bloated with massive Flash animations and shoddy javascript that some of
them can bring your box to a crawl. Youtube is now the reason why I'm trying
to scrape together money for a new computer... 1.1GHz K7 with 1.25GB RAM is
just not up to the task of youtube anymore. (and Facebook and Gmail have
their bad days as well).

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 21:15:12 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 21:15:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Why "upgrade" a Windows OS?
In-Reply-To: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627191755.2555bae1.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikVy3J9k87lV_ZqsEZwnrRlFq2OQAzpLoc3Z-80@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:17 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I don't get it. ?"Upgrading" the Windows OS inevitably means downgrading the speed and stability.

Compare '98 era linux distros to today's.  I recall running a full
Redhat desktop on a 486 with 32MB of RAM.  Things change.  Needs
change.  Such is life.

>  I'm part of the local IEEE's Project Phoenix group, and we have an old laptop with only 256 MB of RAM and a 500 MHz processor. ?This laptop originally had Windows 98, which was upgraded to 2000 >  and then to XP.

256MB of RAM and 500Mhz is sufficient for running XP.  Do a clean
install of XP SP2 Pro and you should see adequate performance.  You'll
want to tweak some things like swap file size though for optimum.

> Thus, in my opinion, "upgrading" a Windows OS on a computer is just as idiotic as installing a 4-cylinder engine in a Lincoln Town Car.

Except eventually the Honda engine dies too, as will your prized '98
laptop relic.  Did I mention things change?

>  At least everyone recognizes the idiocy of the latter feat, which I doubt has ever been done.

You must not have cable TV, huh?

> I've since made the REAL upgrade to the old laptop. ?I installed antiX Linux, which I consider to be the gold standard for distros. ?antiX Linux is lightweight enough for computers from the Windows 98 era, yet is user-friendly and is compatible with the superior Debian software respository (which you need for engineering). ?antiX Linux version M8.2 also works with our WPC54GS v1.1 wireless card.

I'm glad you found a Debian distro that runs well on your laptop.
Debian testing running xfce seems to be light enough to run on most
common hardware (such as your relic from '98).

I have no idea what this rant was about, but I'm glad you found
success with Debian.

Brian


From kc0iog at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 21:42:59 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 21:42:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> What distros were your main distro in the past but are not your distro anymore?

I'm going to bite, because this thread could get interesting.

First distro: Redhat 4.2.  Me and a buddy went 1/2 and 1/2 on a copy
at best Buy (yes, Best Buy used to be good for something!)
I recall two CDs and a non-descriptive sheet of paper telling me to
read the docs on the CD.  I finally got Apache and sendmail working,
and I was in high heaven (at 14.4 Kbps no less).

RH4.2 became RH5.2 then 6.1 and finally 7.3.  RH7.3 was a nice distro,
as I recall it sported a newish 2.2 kernel (or was it shiny new 2.4?)
that rocked the world.

Then RH8 came out.  Oh boy... RH8.  I give props to the Anaconda team
for making RH easier to install than Windows.  RH8/RH9 was
interesting, but I could feel the bloatware creeping up on me.  The
timy little powerhouse that was RH4.2 was no more.

I hopped off the RH train around Fedora 1, and attempted Debian.  I
found Debian to be reminiscent of that beloved RH4.2 install, and I
still use it today.

Now all the distros feel the same.  Easy to install, easy to use,
demanding of hardware.  It's a tradeoff really, ease of use and hugh
functionality comes at the cost of more CPU and RAM.  "Ohhh shiny"
takes even more.  CLI is still slick and clean.  Choose your weapon.
Mine is Debian, only because it's so easy to branch off dueing
install.  Will this box be lean, full featured, or somehwere in
between?

> I currently use antiX Linux as my main distro and Puppy Linux as my backup distro.

Oh yeah... back to your trolling about antiX.  Be proud of your uber
awesomeness, congrats on installing one of hundreds of distros that do
certain things better than others.

Brian


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Mon Jun 28 21:50:51 2010
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 21:50:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux bloatware: trying too hard to be like
	Microsoft?
In-Reply-To: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627212357.703b00d2.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4C295F8B.5080901@gmail.com>

  On 6/27/2010 9:23 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> Why do these distros need so much more RAM and processor speed?  What's driving the escalating hardware requirements?
They add more software that needs more power to do more things to the 
default installation because people who aren't "hardcore" expect this 
and are not in the habit of starting with the bare minimum and adding 
the software they need from there. IMO, this is a good thing for the 
major distros to do since it helps Linux adoption. If you're not good 
with computers and you are migrating from Windows, it's a small price to 
pay when you don't have the knowledge or the patience to figure out 
everything you need and don't need. There are plenty of distros out 
there for who care about bloat, so I don't see how it's a problem. 
There's no "one size fits all" solution and in general, it's not that 
some distros are good and some bad, but rather that every distro has a 
goal and each intends to meet certain needs for certain people.


From strayf at freeshell.org  Mon Jun 28 22:20:08 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 22:20:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>

I started on Redhat 6.2, followed Redhat for a while, but didn't like
working with RPM so much. Tried some minimal distros on old laptops,
switched to Slackware, then discovered Debian and have been on Debian
and Ubuntu ever since.

-Steve

Brian Wall wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
> user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>> What distros were your main distro in the past but are not your distro anymore?
> 
> I'm going to bite, because this thread could get interesting.
> 
> First distro: Redhat 4.2.  Me and a buddy went 1/2 and 1/2 on a copy
> at best Buy (yes, Best Buy used to be good for something!)
> I recall two CDs and a non-descriptive sheet of paper telling me to
> read the docs on the CD.  I finally got Apache and sendmail working,
> and I was in high heaven (at 14.4 Kbps no less).
> 
> RH4.2 became RH5.2 then 6.1 and finally 7.3.  RH7.3 was a nice distro,
> as I recall it sported a newish 2.2 kernel (or was it shiny new 2.4?)
> that rocked the world.
> 
> Then RH8 came out.  Oh boy... RH8.  I give props to the Anaconda team
> for making RH easier to install than Windows.  RH8/RH9 was
> interesting, but I could feel the bloatware creeping up on me.  The
> timy little powerhouse that was RH4.2 was no more.
> 
> I hopped off the RH train around Fedora 1, and attempted Debian.  I
> found Debian to be reminiscent of that beloved RH4.2 install, and I
> still use it today.
> 
> Now all the distros feel the same.  Easy to install, easy to use,
> demanding of hardware.  It's a tradeoff really, ease of use and hugh
> functionality comes at the cost of more CPU and RAM.  "Ohhh shiny"
> takes even more.  CLI is still slick and clean.  Choose your weapon.
> Mine is Debian, only because it's so easy to branch off dueing
> install.  Will this box be lean, full featured, or somehwere in
> between?
> 
>> I currently use antiX Linux as my main distro and Puppy Linux as my backup distro.
> 
> Oh yeah... back to your trolling about antiX.  Be proud of your uber
> awesomeness, congrats on installing one of hundreds of distros that do
> certain things better than others.
> 
> Brian
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Jun 28 23:53:43 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user)
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 23:53:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Dual-boot of Windows vs. Windows in VirtualBox
Message-ID: <20100628235343.6eccf913.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

Is there any good reason to dual boot Windows given the option of installing Windows in VirtualBox?  I haven't tried VirtualBox yet, but it sounds awesome - being able to try out various operating systems without having to burn CDs and without having to dedicate a whole partition to Windows or another guest OS.

The only drawback I can think of is the increased RAM and processor speed requirements (due to the need to run both the host OS and guest OS simultaneously).

(In case you're wondering, the only thing I've done in Windows that I haven't found a Linux/open source substitute for is working with a Xilinx FPGA kit.)

-- 
Jason Hsu
http://www.jasonhsu.com/ee.html
http://www.jasonhsu.com/swrwatt.html
http://embeddedengineer.wordpress.com/
http://www.jasonhsu.com/linux.html


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 01:50:49 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 01:50:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Dual-boot of Windows vs. Windows in VirtualBox
In-Reply-To: <20100628235343.6eccf913.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100628235343.6eccf913.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006290142150.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 28 Jun 2010, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:

> Is there any good reason to dual boot Windows given the option of 
> installing Windows in VirtualBox?  I haven't tried VirtualBox yet, but 
> it sounds awesome - being able to try out various operating systems 
> without having to burn CDs and without having to dedicate a whole 
> partition to Windows or another guest OS.
>
> The only drawback I can think of is the increased RAM and processor 
> speed requirements (due to the need to run both the host OS and guest OS 
> simultaneously).
>
> (In case you're wondering, the only thing I've done in Windows that I 
> haven't found a Linux/open source substitute for is working with a 
> Xilinx FPGA kit.)


I used Windows XP in VirtualBox for a year or so.  It was pretty great. 
I got almost everything to work properly.  I think USB wasn't working in 
Windows, but I probably could have figured it out -- I think it normally 
works for people.

One major problem:  It took down my Ubuntu system once.  I used to just 
leave it running in an IceWM workspace under RealVNC, but sometimes I 
wouldn't use it for weeks at a time.  This meant it wasn't rebooted. 
Various things can grow stale with Windows over time and at some point it 
severely messed up everything to the point where I couldn't even look at 
process statuses.  After almost a whole day of trying to make it work, I 
had to take it down and reboot the whole system.

Without Windows running in VirtualBox, I've had the same VNC session 
running since October 2009 when I last upgraded Ubuntu to 9.10.  I'll 
probably get back to using VirtualBox with WinXP again, but I won't leave 
it running when I don't need it.  The only thing I think I need it for is 
for certain Office documents that OpenOffice just doesn't handle 
correctly.  Those documents are pretty rare these days and OpenOffice is 
doing a nice enough job most of the time.

Mike


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Jun 29 07:17:12 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 07:17:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>;
	from strayf@freeshell.org on Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:20:08PM -0500
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>

On 06/28 10:20 , Steve Cayford wrote:
> I started on Redhat 6.2, followed Redhat for a while, but didn't like
> working with RPM so much. Tried some minimal distros on old laptops,
> switched to Slackware, then discovered Debian and have been on Debian
> and Ubuntu ever since.

I talked to someone on the bus in college who had a thick book which I now
recognize as a Slackware manual... about 1995-96. 
Me: What's that?
Him: It's Linux.
Me: What's linux?

I heard about it off and on for a few more years but didn't have a spare
machine to dedicate to it until I got a paying job and got the boss to buy a
copy of the Red Hat 5.2 boxed set (with a real dead-trees manual and all). I
fell in love with it because:

- The installer had a 'redneck' language option, with phrases like "Would
  you like to floormat yer hard drive?", "Wut kind of CD-ROM do yew
have? [ ] SCSI CD-ROM [ ] Crappy CD-ROM" and "Congratupations yew is done!".
I loved an OS that could laugh at itself.

- I could speak to my computer in complete sentences rather than use a
  point-and-grunt interface.

After using RH5.2 and RH6; I tried Debian because all the geeks in TCLUG
(those of you still around know whom you are) were saying how great apt
was. The main thing I saw in Debian was that it was a distributed volunteer
effort; so they tended to build tools to ease the workload and distribute
control as much as possible, rather than have a centralized 'authority' like
Red Hat needed for its corporate strategy. (Some interesting parallels could
probably be drawn between the centralization/distribution degrees of various
Linux distros and the political statism/anarchism spectrum).

I've stuck with Debian ever since. I still can't get over the silly sound of
'Ubuntu' even if the development seems to be much more active than Debian.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Tue Jun 29 08:32:02 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:32:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Dual-boot of Windows vs. Windows in VirtualBox
In-Reply-To: <20100628235343.6eccf913.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100628235343.6eccf913.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4C29F5D2.8090404@redstargaming.net>

On 06/28/2010 11:53 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux user wrote:
> Is there any good reason to dual boot Windows given the option of installing Windows in VirtualBox?  I haven't tried VirtualBox yet, but it sounds awesome - being able to try out various operating systems without having to burn CDs and without having to dedicate a whole partition to Windows or another guest OS.
>
> The only drawback I can think of is the increased RAM and processor speed requirements (due to the need to run both the host OS and guest OS simultaneously).
>
> (In case you're wondering, the only thing I've done in Windows that I haven't found a Linux/open source substitute for is working with a Xilinx FPGA kit.)
>

I can give you two good reasons.

The first is computer games.  Wine can't run everything, and even when 
it does it usually comes with hassles that most would rather not deal 
with.  I'm an avid combat flight-simmer, and of the 3 combat flight sims 
I'm often found playing, none of them work in Wine sufficiently well for 
me to enjoy my time.

A second, and bigger reason is DirectX development.  I got into DX 
development about 3 years ago and I haven't looked back since. 
Microsoft may be an evil corporation that makes a lot of mistakes, but 
one thing they never seem to fail on is the quality of their programmer 
tools.  I can develop a 3D application in DirectX in about half the time 
it takes me in OpenGL, since DirectX's API is just that much better.

Most importantly, with DirectX I can do pretty much everything that I'm 
going to in the engine I'm writing out of the box.  With OpenGL I'm 
often dependent on multiple 3rd party bolt-on APIs and Libraries, some 
of which most likely aren't License friendly if I'm making software that 
will be sold or used commercially.  Overall, all of the extra APIs and 
libraries make the code much more difficult to maintain over time.

That said, OpenGL still has a special place in my heart, and I still 
tinker and use it occasionally, but professionally I'm still going to be 
using DirectX for a while to come.

VirtualBox has some limited DirectX graphics support now, but I've found 
it insufficient for both of these tasks.

-Adam


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Tue Jun 29 08:42:36 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 08:42:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>	<4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>
	<20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <4C29F84C.3070408@redstargaming.net>

I started out with Red Hat as well, at RH7.  Here's my history

RH7 - RH9

Then moved onto...

Slackware

Got tired of the crappy package management and switched to...

Fedora

Realized that wasn't the RH I loved and switched to...

Debian

And then after getting tired of Debian taking so long to release new 
major versions...

Ubuntu, which I've been using since.  It may be bloated, but overall its 
an extremely nice distribution and as long as you have a computer that's 
5 years of age or less it functions very well.  The development scene is 
better than any other distribution I've used.

Plus, I can get on board with the whole idea of making Linux easier to 
use.  Linux will never become widespread unless the general public feels 
its easy _and_ powerful.  I would gather that 98% of computer users like 
ease of use over complexity and raw power.

-Adam


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 09:50:33 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 09:50:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>
	<20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006290949450.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> I've stuck with Debian ever since. I still can't get over the silly 
> sound of 'Ubuntu' even if the development seems to be much more active 
> than Debian.


Really?  Some people choose a distro based on the sound of the name? 
That's interesting.

Mike


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Jun 29 10:16:40 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 10:16:40 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006290949450.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 09:50:33AM -0500
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>
	<20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006290949450.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100629101640.K31197@real-time.com>

On 06/29 09:50 , Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> 
> > I've stuck with Debian ever since. I still can't get over the silly 
> > sound of 'Ubuntu' even if the development seems to be much more active 
> > than Debian.
> 
> Really?  Some people choose a distro based on the sound of the name? 
> That's interesting.

There are obviously attempts to make distros appealing based on the name;
hence 'Puppy Linux', 'Green Frog Linux' (anyone remember that?), 'Yellow Dog
Linux', etc. Why shouldn't people choose a distro based on a name? After
all, "Run A Spear Through Your Guts Linux" would seem to have a grimness and
loathing built into it, and even if it were the best thing since sliced
bread it may not get a lot of following.

Keep in mind that sufficiently advanced sarcasm is sometimes difficult to
distinguish from seriousness. 
;)

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 13:45:15 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 13:45:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100629101640.K31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>
	<20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006290949450.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100629101640.K31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006291337440.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> On 06/29 09:50 , Mike Miller wrote:
>> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>>
>>> I've stuck with Debian ever since. I still can't get over the silly 
>>> sound of 'Ubuntu' even if the development seems to be much more active 
>>> than Debian.
>>
>> Really?  Some people choose a distro based on the sound of the name? 
>> That's interesting.
>
> There are obviously attempts to make distros appealing based on the 
> name; hence 'Puppy Linux', 'Green Frog Linux' (anyone remember that?), 
> 'Yellow Dog Linux', etc. Why shouldn't people choose a distro based on a 
> name?

Because the name doesn't affect the way the distro functions.  What we 
usually care about is the user experience -- things like package 
availability, the interface, etc.  The name might give you a clue about 
what is inside, but once you know what is inside the name has nothing else 
to offer.

I'm sure that people are affected, a lot, by the names of products, but 
they usually don't say that they base their choice on the sound of a name. 
They are usually obliviously irrational instead of openly irrational.


> After all, "Run A Spear Through Your Guts Linux" would seem to have a 
> grimness and loathing built into it,

But then you might want to find out what really is built into it and make 
a decision based on that instead of basing your decision on the name 
itself.


> and even if it were the best thing since sliced bread it may not get a 
> lot of following.

You might want to base a decision on the following instead of basing it on 
what you think the following will be because of the name.

We're talking here about someone who said he won't use Ubuntu because the 
name sounds silly to him.  He might have been joking, but it didn't look 
like it to me.

Mike


From drue at therub.org  Tue Jun 29 14:11:16 2010
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 14:11:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006291337440.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>
	<20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006290949450.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100629101640.K31197@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006291337440.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100629191116.GB17477@therub.org>

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 01:45:15PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> We're talking here about someone who said he won't use Ubuntu because the 
> name sounds silly to him.  He might have been joking, but it didn't look 
> like it to me.

If names don't matter, why have you and us collectively spent so much
time arguing about our own namesake?  

http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tclug-list/2008-October/055072.html

drue


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Jun 29 17:25:19 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 17:25:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100629191116.GB17477@therub.org>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTilJGEnvT0d7FL27-ejJmC6juiJpF5r9l9B108C1@mail.gmail.com>
	<4C296668.6060901@freeshell.org>
	<20100629071712.G31197@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006290949450.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100629101640.K31197@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006291337440.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100629191116.GB17477@therub.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006291714340.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Dan Rue wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 01:45:15PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> We're talking here about someone who said he won't use Ubuntu because 
>> the name sounds silly to him.  He might have been joking, but it didn't 
>> look like it to me.
>
> If names don't matter, why have you and us collectively spent so much 
> time arguing about our own namesake?
>
> http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tclug-list/2008-October/055072.html


It's not that names don't matter, and that's not what I said.  It's that 
the name of a thing is nowhere near as important as what the thing is. 
Names like "Debian" or "Ubuntu" don't tell us much about the distro and so 
they shouldn't play much of a role in our choice of which to use.  I'm 
talking about the sound of the name here.  Peanut Linux is small, I think, 
so that's a good name that tells us something about the distro.  If I 
thought the word "Debian" sounded silly, should I look for a different 
distro to use?

The GNU/Linux v Linux controversy seems to be highly emotional.  I think 
that GNU/Linux does a better job of describing the thing that you're 
getting when you install some GNU/Linux or Linux distro.  GNU programs 
like "ls" (written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie) are hard to 
live without.  That's why I think GNU/Linux is a better name than Linux, 
but I don't want to argue that point again.  I wouldn't decide not to use 
any kind of software because the name sounded funny.  I might not use a 
distro if the authors strongly opposed calling it a GNU/Linux distro, but 
that would be a political decision, not one based on the sound of a word.

Mike


From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 29 18:39:47 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 18:39:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006291714340.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIENMDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 5:25 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
>
>
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Dan Rue wrote:
>
> > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 01:45:15PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> >
> >> We're talking here about someone who said he won't use Ubuntu because
> >> the name sounds silly to him.  He might have been joking, but
> it didn't
> >> look like it to me.
> >
> > If names don't matter, why have you and us collectively spent so much
> > time arguing about our own namesake?
> >
> >
> http://shadowknight.real-time.com/pipermail/tclug-list/2008-Octobe
> r/055072.html
>
>
> It's not that names don't matter, and that's not what I said.  It's that
> the name of a thing is nowhere near as important as what the thing is.
> Names like "Debian" or "Ubuntu" don't tell us much about the
> distro and so
> they shouldn't play much of a role in our choice of which to use.  I'm
> talking about the sound of the name here.  Peanut Linux is small,
> I think,
> so that's a good name that tells us something about the distro.  If I
> thought the word "Debian" sounded silly, should I look for a different
> distro to use?
>
> The GNU/Linux v Linux controversy seems to be highly emotional.  I think
> that GNU/Linux does a better job of describing the thing that you're
> getting when you install some GNU/Linux or Linux distro.  GNU programs
> like "ls" (written by Richard M. Stallman and David MacKenzie)
> are hard to
> live without.  That's why I think GNU/Linux is a better name than Linux,
> but I don't want to argue that point again.  I wouldn't decide not to use
> any kind of software because the name sounded funny.  I might not use a
> distro if the authors strongly opposed calling it a GNU/Linux distro, but
> that would be a political decision, not one based on the sound of a word.
>
> Mike


Language perspective, not argument:  The old German WWI word for a military
tank was "schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen".  That was a
Guiness record for word length.  Is there any wonder why it wasn't long
before people more often used "tank".  Even Germans often used a shorter
term "panzerauto" by WWII.  I'm among those that prefer the shorter term
Linux and find GNU adequately embedded, as are Torvald, open source
operating system, etc.


Chuck



From galanolwe at yahoo.com  Tue Jun 29 19:54:59 2010
From: galanolwe at yahoo.com (Olwe Bottorff)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 17:54:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIENMDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <297346.29601.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

One of the problems I see with Linux is how it's still a large, monolithic system that sits on a large hunk of computer iron, be it a desktop or a clamshell lap-slab. Of course Apple and Windows have this problem too. And this problem has long been a gradient that has enticed many companies to their doom as they attempted to swim out toward some "appliance" island/mirage. Sun-Oracle is the too-early-adapter that comes to mind. But now I hear about the ChromeOS and how actually Android may soon move up the food chain from smart phones into bigger stuff.
ChromeOS/Android are clearly meaning to be the basis of serious, finally arrived CAA (computer as appliance) and I can't help but think Google will succeed where the others had to eat their sled dogs. It was a huge stretch those years ago to have some sort of "Java experience" on a not-really-so-mininalistic computer, but will a minimalistic appliance (mini-slab-pad-smart-thingie) go amiss now that hardly anyone works "offline" anymore, now that workplace LANs are, well, still there but not really?
I see Ubuntu10.04 on my docked Toshiba laptop not as a "desktop" computer, but as a Unix workstation, a sort of Darwinian champion of the Unix Workstations Wars. Yeah, I've got me a 21st century Unix workstation here. And one of the prime advantages of a Unix workstation was the peer-to-peer networking where "everything is the net," or whatever Sun's motto was. Will the Internet Cloud (sponsored by Google) finally obviate actual physical peer-to-peer workstations?
The day is coming when I'll pause at the "download" button ... and just leave whatever it is where it is, not "install" it and just do/use it there -- even if I'm a serious developer. Then the only thing big I"ll covet will be screen real estate. Everything else can be, well, minimal.
So if what I'm saying is sorta true, where *does* a full-blown second-generation Unix workstation like Linux fit in as we move into the future? Your thoughts....
OlweGM, MN


      
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Jun 29 21:49:00 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 21:49:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <297346.29601.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
References: <297346.29601.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292135080.24785@localhost.localdomain>

Hi there,

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Olwe Bottorff wrote:

> One of the problems I see with Linux is how it's still a large, monolithic
> system that sits on a large hunk of computer iron, be it a desktop or a
> clamshell lap-slab. Of course Apple and Windows have this problem too. And
> So if what I'm saying is sorta true, where *does* a full-blown
> second-generation Unix workstation like Linux fit in as we move into the
> future? Your thoughts....

I just don't understand The Cloud mentality.

I want my data on MY MACHINE, in my DIRECT CONTROL. I want my applications 
running on my machines, in my direct control, because if the apps are 
running somewhere else, then somewhere else has my data.

I know I'm at the extreme on this. Ever since the late 90s I've been 
running my own webservers, my own DNS servers and my own Email servers.

Most people don't go that far, but I want my data and applications on 
machines I control directly. Most people don't want that or need that.

The thing is, it's the future. Kids Nowadays are getting used to not 
having ANY privacy (thanks so much, Facebook), and really just doing 
everything on the browser (thanks a lot, Google). Storing everything on 
"the internet" is the next natural step.

Understanding even LESS about how things work is the natural progression. 
Back In The Day using a computer at all, evenfor relatively simple things 
like word processing took a certain amount of knowledge. And I'm not 
talking mainframes. I'll go all the way to "Modern" computing and the 
PC-Compatible. You still needed to know how to boot DOS, you needed to 
change floppies or go "B:" and you needed to run wordstar.exe or whatever. 
You needed to hit ^P^B for boldface. You needed to go ^X^S to save.

The knowledge curve is much much lower now, but even with a Brand Spankin' 
New computer with Windows 7 on it, people still need to get an application 
installed if they want to word-process, and occasionally go "Start->New 
Word Document" or whatever. You need to be aware of disk space.


The future? You get a new laptop, you type in your Google username and 
password (or "Create new account") and you're done. There's a big email 
icon. Someone sends you a doc, it opens it. You don't need to know what's 
writing the doc. You don't need to know where it's saved. You don't need 
to worry about disk space. You don't need to know ANYTHING.

Not only that, but you don't really get a hell of a lot of choice. Maybe 
there'll be a "Choose your document editor [x] Google [ ] The Other Guys" 
but most people will just go with defaults anyway. And then Google will 
eat everyone else (because someone has to).


I'm keeping my desktop, thank yoy. I'm keeping my 'monolithic' operating 
system. I'm keeping my incredibly overcomplicated system, my incredibly 
overcomplicated servers, my incredibly overcomplicated network setup, and 
all my own data.


And when there's a network outage, I'll still be able to access my stuff.



-Yaron

--


From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Jun 29 22:23:41 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 22:23:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292135080.24785@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 9:49 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
>
>
>
> I'm keeping my desktop, thank yoy. I'm keeping my 'monolithic' operating
> system. I'm keeping my incredibly overcomplicated system, my incredibly
> overcomplicated servers, my incredibly overcomplicated network setup, and
> all my own data.
>
>
> And when there's a network outage, I'll still be able to access my stuff.
>


You will have ALL your punched card decks on hand and ready to use the
moment that outage is fixed...

Don't really disagree, just noting the analogy   :-)


Chuck



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Jun 29 22:35:05 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 29 Jun 2010 22:35:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Chuck Cole wrote:

> You will have ALL your punched card decks on hand and ready to use the
> moment that outage is fixed...
>
> Don't really disagree, just noting the analogy   :-)

*grins* Yes, I know I'm being a bit archaic, but the move from punchcards 
to magnetic storage to floppies to harddrives to solid-state devices IS 
pretty much lateral (albeit a VAST improvement). My point here is that 
whether I'm using punch cards or 8" floppies (yes kids, there were 8" 
floppies) or 3.5" floppies (yes kids, I skipped the 5.25"), or CDROMs, or 
a 2tb harddrive, or a 256MB sdd, or an array of 1GB thumbdrives... I CAN 
ACCESS MY DATA when there's a network outage. I can open a word processor 
and work on The Great American SciFi Novel. I can process the 21MB RAW 
images my camera takes. I can read email that's already in my inbox and 
compose replies (THEY will be ready when the outage is over).

If you use gmail and The Internet is down, you can't even look at your 
email. How crazy is that?


-Yaron

--


From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 30 00:29:30 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 00:29:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Yaron
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:35 PM
> To: TCLUG
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
>
>
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
> > You will have ALL your punched card decks on hand and ready to use the
> > moment that outage is fixed...
> >
> > Don't really disagree, just noting the analogy   :-)
>
> *grins* Yes, I know I'm being a bit archaic, but the move from punchcards
> to magnetic storage to floppies to harddrives to solid-state devices IS
> pretty much lateral (albeit a VAST improvement). My point here is that
> whether I'm using punch cards or 8" floppies (yes kids, there were 8"
> floppies) or 3.5" floppies (yes kids, I skipped the 5.25"), or CDROMs, or
> a 2tb harddrive, or a 256MB sdd, or an array of 1GB thumbdrives... I CAN
> ACCESS MY DATA when there's a network outage. I can open a word processor
> and work on The Great American SciFi Novel. I can process the 21MB RAW
> images my camera takes. I can read email that's already in my inbox and
> compose replies (THEY will be ready when the outage is over).

I tried inserting a punched card in a floppy drive slot, and that lateral
move didn't work.  Bot as successful finding a slot for floppies on newer
hard drives.

>
> If you use gmail and The Internet is down, you can't even look at your
> email. How crazy is that?

Understand your points, but gmail has an option for a poop3 connection and
outgoing scat - er smpt...


Chuck




From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Jun 30 00:45:13 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 00:45:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>

Just 21MB? You're behind on the times... My 7D takes 30MB RAWs :-)
Ryan Coleman
Publisher, d3photography.com
editor at d3photography.com
612.618.5682 (mobile)

On Jun 29, 2010, at 22:35, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> . I can process the 21MB RAW 
> images my camera takes.
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Jun 30 00:51:06 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 00:51:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
	<E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006300049220.31968@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> Just 21MB? You're behind on the times... My 7D takes 30MB RAWs :-)
...
> Publisher, d3photography.com

You shoot a Canon, and your website is named after a Nikon? (;

I have a 50D (: I'm not a professional, so I don't feel that I need to 
have the cutting edge camera... though I /do/ wish I waited an extra year 
for the 7D.


-Yaron

--


From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Jun 30 01:30:10 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 01:30:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] ABit 09 QuadGT mobo WAS Re: Will Google rule with
	ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006300049220.31968@localhost.localdomain>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
	<E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006300049220.31968@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <F948C125-A5A4-4AC8-AED7-5F5C76A40024@me.com>

Haha division iii came long before the nikon d3.

And I'm hardly a professional shooter, im shooting a 1.6 crop. But I do love my 7d. Wish I had it on Friday for the flooding in uptown, had to resort to my 40d.

Off topic penance: Anyone have an abit 09 quad gt mobo lying around? I need to replace mine and its the only board that I know for certain will work with my HPT RR 2320 RAID card. 

Ryan Coleman
Publisher, d3photography.com
editor at d3photography.com
612.618.5682 (mobile)

On Jun 30, 2010, at 0:51, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> 
>> Just 21MB? You're behind on the times... My 7D takes 30MB RAWs :-)
> ...
>> Publisher, d3photography.com
> 
> You shoot a Canon, and your website is named after a Nikon? (;
> 
> I have a 50D (: I'm not a professional, so I don't feel that I need to 
> have the cutting edge camera... though I /do/ wish I waited an extra year 
> for the 7D.
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 03:45:58 2010
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 03:45:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4C2B0446.7050808@gmail.com>

 On 6/29/2010 10:35 PM, Yaron wrote:
> If you use gmail and The Internet is down, you can't even look at your 
> email. How crazy is that?
Not if you access it with an MUA.  :-P
My primary email account is through Gmail and I've never used the
webmail interface. I can read any mail I've downloaded whether I have a
connection to Google or not.


From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Jun 30 08:24:13 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 08:24:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>;
	from ryanjcole@me.com on Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 12:45:13AM -0500
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
	<E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>
Message-ID: <20100630082413.S31197@real-time.com>

On 06/30 12:45 , Ryan Coleman wrote:
> Just 21MB? You're behind on the times... My 7D takes 30MB RAWs :-)

Hah! You youngsters and your newfangled 'cameras'. I grew up scratching
pictures on *rocks*! 'Paint' was the new technology, and I'm still not sure
it was a good idea! 

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Wed Jun 30 08:47:46 2010
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 09:47:46 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <20100630082413.S31197@real-time.com>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net><alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain><E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>
	<20100630082413.S31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E605DB6962@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

>On 06/30 12:45 , Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> Just 21MB? You're behind on the times... My 7D takes 30MB RAWs :-)

>On Wednesday, June 30, 2010 08:24, Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>Hah! You youngsters and your newfangled 'cameras'. I grew up scratching
>pictures on *rocks*! 'Paint' was the new technology, and I'm still not
sure
>it was a good idea! 

Rocks!  You had rocks?  Before the planet cooled, we drew pictures out
of dust and inter-stellar gases - always wondered how art would evolve
as things started to coalesce.  


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Wed Jun 30 09:43:35 2010
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 09:43:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIENMDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006291714340.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu> 
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLIENMDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimgzruzwgBuuhCjje1opiIrf9zROc9A7Ei639mT@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 18:39, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Language perspective, not argument: ?The old German WWI word for a military
> tank was "schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen". ?That was a
> Guiness record for word length. ?Is there any wonder why it wasn't long
> before people more often used "tank". ?Even Germans often used a shorter
> term "panzerauto" by WWII. ?I'm among those that prefer the shorter term
> Linux and find GNU adequately embedded, as are Torvald, open source
> operating system, etc.

I call bullshit, i am not a linguist, but i speak german. Contrary to
popular belief stringing together any number of words does not work,
they have to make sense. "Schutzen Graben" is a defensive ditch,
"Abwehr" is counter fire or defence, "vernichtung" is destruction,
"kraft" is power, usually a prefix to a machine. ("LKW", or "Last
Kraft Wagen" is heavy load power automobile or what we would call a
truck, tractor trailer) "fahr" is drive, and "wagen" is wagon/car. As
you can see stringing these words together is rather nonsensical, at
best i can translate it to mean: the destruction of the defence(noun)
in the defensive ditch with a drivable powered wagon.The german
wikipedia article calls the first german tank: "schweren Kampfwagen"
or Heavy Combat Wagon.

as for the 2nd word, the pre-WW2 german word for tank was "Schwerer
Schlepper", which means Heavy Tractor. the reason being is that
Germany was forbidden from building any sort of offensive military
equipment and the soldiers and everybody who knew about these
"tractors" was most likely sure to be told to keep their mouths shut
to keep the secret in(not that it really was a secret). in any case
the official name for tank in German before and during WW2 was "Panzer
Kampf Wagen", Armoured Combat Wagon, and would most likely be
shortened to Panzer or PanzerWagen or referred to by their military
designation (Panzer III, Tiger I, Panther). PanzerAuto would refer
more to an armoured car.


From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 09:54:21 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 09:54:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E605DB6962@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLAENNDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292230060.31968@localhost.localdomain>
	<E50B850C-B3A2-4E03-8F71-728D92140B96@me.com>
	<20100630082413.S31197@real-time.com>
	<352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E605DB6962@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTil6B7ADij1nfkz9uk_pRxv7EsgCcc2RSXitbaHN@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 8:47 AM, Smith, Craig A <Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com
> wrote:

> >On 06/30 12:45 , Ryan Coleman wrote:
> >> Just 21MB? You're behind on the times... My 7D takes 30MB RAWs :-)
>
> >On Wednesday, June 30, 2010 08:24, Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> >Hah! You youngsters and your newfangled 'cameras'. I grew up scratching
> >pictures on *rocks*! 'Paint' was the new technology, and I'm still not
> sure
> >it was a good idea!
>
> Rocks!  You had rocks?  Before the planet cooled, we drew pictures out
> of dust and inter-stellar gases - always wondered how art would evolve
> as things started to coalesce.
>
>
Dust!  You had matter cool enough to not be plasma?  Last time I screwed
around with abstract impressionism I took every particle in the universe and
squished it into one tiny ball of perfect symmetry and then with a wiggle of
my nose I shattered that symmetry and made a big abstract explosion of
matter.  You should have seen it.  It was pretty cool.  Cool as in awesome,
since really it was very hot.

-Rob
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From progressivepenguin at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 10:21:21 2010
From: progressivepenguin at gmail.com (Steve T)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 10:21:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> What distros were your main distro in the past but are not your distro anymore?

I started with Redhat and Debian.  I still use Redhat only when I have
to for business and haven't touched Debian in years.


-- 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!"
-- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)


From SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us  Wed Jun 30 11:21:35 2010
From: SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us (Scott Downing)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 11:21:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>

My first ditro was Slackware 2.2, used that for about a year but I struggled with it, the book I bought came with it but the book was written for 2.0 and a lot of things had changed. I heard from someone that a guy at a convenience store knew a lot about Linux so I paid him a visit one night and he was more than happy to answer my questions and pointed me to the local LUG. Went to a LUG meeting and they gave me a Red Hat 4.1 cd, I used Red Hat for quite a few years until I got tired of compiling everything myself and tried to be more dependent on the RPM system but I found it to be lacking. I tried a lot of distros through those years (Suse, Caldera, Mandriva, Fedora, Gentoo, Knoppix) and eventually settled on Debian, I think the apt-get system and the deb packages were far superior to anything I found else where.

Linux had been my primary workstation and all my servers since I had started to use Red Hat back in 97 and through my switch to Debian but I got fed up with all the political crap that kept going on which caused the end users like myself a lot of greif. I remember numerous occasions of conflicting packages being submitted that would hose something important (like x windows) and then the package maintainers would argue about who's responsibility it was to fix it while those in user-land hung in limbo for days with things not working. Maybe that isn't common any more but years of that going on and I eventually gave up on Linux on the desktop when Apple switched to Intel processors. Before OSX I was an avid Mac basher and would choose even Windows over it but I have to say OSX gave me the powerful insides I crave with a uniform and stable UI I need to do daily work. Also the Hackintosh scene makes it more affordable for me while letting me scratch the occasional itch I get to dig into the guts of an OS.

I still use Linux for all my servers at home and I've set up a decent sized linux cluster for my company, at first Debian but upgrade stability and server driver issues (without having to compile a kernel) moved me to the Ubuntu LTS versions. I don't think I've have a Linux box with a GUI in years, its all CLI for me and that's how I likes it.

So I guess my left behind list:
Everything

Currently using for servers:
Ubuntu
CentOS (only for my Asterisk server at home because Asterisks takes a larger commitment to learn to setup than I have time and interest)

P.S.
Anyone remember pre-Gnome Enlightenment? That was when UI design started to get really cool and I'd look at everyone using Windows 95 with disgust. I just looked up a screenshot and now it just looks really cheap and nerdy to me, hehe.


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org on behalf of Steve T
Sent: Wed 6/30/2010 10:21 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
 
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Jason Hsu, embedded engineer, Linux
user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> What distros were your main distro in the past but are not your distro anymore?

I started with Redhat and Debian.  I still use Redhat only when I have
to for business and haven't touched Debian in years.


-- 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act!"
-- George Orwell (Eric Arthur Blair)

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Jun 30 11:38:45 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 11:38:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>;
	from SDowning@erdc.k12.mn.us on Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:21:35AM -0500
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com>
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <20100630113845.U31197@real-time.com>

On 06/30 11:21 , Scott Downing wrote:
> P.S.
> Anyone remember pre-Gnome Enlightenment? That was when UI design started to get really cool and I'd look at everyone using Windows 95 with disgust. I just looked up a screenshot and now it just looks really cheap and nerdy to me, hehe.

I still use FVWM on my workstation. Same configuration for the past 10 years
or so. No frills, no waiting, no breaking.

There's a few features I'd like to have on it; but AFAIK no window manager
yet puts all of them together anyway, and they aren't important enough to
justify changing.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us  Wed Jun 30 11:58:15 2010
From: SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us (Scott Downing)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 11:58:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com><AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com><7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<20100630113845.U31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01F@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>

>I still use FVWM on my workstation. Same configuration for the past 10 years
>or so. No frills, no waiting, no breaking.


Haha, I think I was too young back then, I don't think I stuck with any window manager or at least theme for more than a few months before I'd try something new let alone the same config! I also think my tastes and needs have changed a lot and when pure power was not longer as much of an issue the need to constantly tweak was no longer there.

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From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Jun 30 12:12:52 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 12:12:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01F@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>;
	from SDowning@erdc.k12.mn.us on Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 11:58:15AM -0500
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com><AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com><7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<20100630113845.U31197@real-time.com>
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01F@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <20100630121252.W31197@real-time.com>

On 06/30 11:58 , Scott Downing wrote:
> Haha, I think I was too young back then, I don't think I stuck with any window manager or at least theme for more than a few months before I'd try something new let alone the same config! I also think my tastes and needs have changed a lot and when pure power was not longer as much of an issue the need to constantly tweak was no longer there.

I used to be fascinated by window managers. When I was teaching Linux
administration, I'd run a different WM on my laptop each day of class so the
students could see the different options.

So I've tried dozens of them... and stuck with FVWM when I actually want to
do work.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Jun 30 12:14:43 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 12:14:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100630113845.U31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com>
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<20100630113845.U31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006301213030.5162@localhost.localdomain>

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> I still use FVWM on my workstation. Same configuration for the past 10 years
> or so. No frills, no waiting, no breaking.

I used to use FVWM (well, fvwm2 actually) till... well, I think I switched 
to Window Maker well over 10 years ago. And I still use it now.

I'd kinda like to have some of the Pretty you get with Compiz, but that 
doesn't actually work with nvidia dual-head, so it's moot!


-Yaron

--


From andyschmid at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 13:08:58 2010
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 13:08:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006301213030.5162@localhost.localdomain>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> 
	<AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us> 
	<20100630113845.U31197@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006301213030.5162@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinogpBtbdbiN8J4JLvtJx8Q83sq1VLVfHUy9EIM@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 12:14 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>
> > I still use FVWM on my workstation. Same configuration for the past 10
> years
> > or so. No frills, no waiting, no breaking.
>
> I used to use FVWM (well, fvwm2 actually) till... well, I think I switched
> to Window Maker well over 10 years ago. And I still use it now.
>
> I'd kinda like to have some of the Pretty you get with Compiz, but that
> doesn't actually work with nvidia dual-head, so it's moot!
>
>
> -Yaron
>
>
I have compiz working with nvidia dual-head running two 1920x1200 monitors
with full acceleration support.. works great.

Section "Monitor"
>         Identifier      "Monitor0"
>         Vendorname      "Unknown"
>         Modelname       "DELL 2407WFP"
>         Horizsync       30.0    -       83.0
>         Vertrefresh     56.0    -       76.0
>         Option          "DPMS"
> EndSection
>
> Section "Screen"
>         Identifier      "Screen0"
>         Device          "Videocard0"
>         Monitor         "Monitor0"
>         Option          "TwinView"      "1"
>         Option          "metamodes"     "DFP-0: 1920x1200 +0+0, DFP-1:
> 1920x1200 +1920+0; DFP-0: 800x600 +0+0, DFP-1: nvidia-auto-select +800+0;
> DFP-0: 640x480 +0+0, DFP-1: nvidia-auto-select +640+0"
>         DefaultDepth    24
> EndSection
>
> Section "Module"
>         Load            "glx"
> EndSection
>
> Section "ServerLayout"
>         Identifier      "Default Layout"
>         screen 0 "Screen0" 0 0
>         Option "BlankTime" "0"
>         Option "StandbyTime" "0"
>         Option "SuspendTime" "0"
>         Option "OffTime" "10"
> EndSection
>
>
> Section "Device"
>         Identifier      "Videocard0"
>         Vendorname      "NVIDIA Corporation"
>         Boardname       "GeForce 7900 GS"
>         Option          "AddARGBVisuals"        "True"
>         Option          "AddARGBGLXVisuals"     "True"
>         Driver  "nvidia"
>         Option  "NoLogo"        "True"
> EndSection
>
> Section "ServerFlags"
>         Option "BlankTime" "0"
>         Option "StandbyTime" "0"
>         Option "SuspendTime" "0"
>         Option "OffTime" "10"
> EndSection
>
> Section "ServerFlags"
>         Option          "Xinerama"      "0"
> EndSection
>



>  --
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Jun 30 16:20:17 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 16:20:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimgzruzwgBuuhCjje1opiIrf9zROc9A7Ei639mT@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

Check the web and correct those sources.  This is not my invention: I used several web references to refresh my memories from German and linguistics.  This is prevalent, if not entirely precise and accurate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_December_11


My German teacher back in college is where I first heard this, and later in linguistic refrences.  Perhaps you don't have enough gray hair.  This *is* a linguist's issue, and you say that is not your strength.  Long concatenations were common German usage 40 or more years ago, but I would not be surprised to find that modern usage has moved away from that as technology lingo became more commonplace and concatenation too cumbersome.

Sorry, but yours is the specious and undocumented bullshit.

Chuck



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Munir Nassar
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:44 AM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 18:39, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Language perspective, not argument:  The old German WWI word 
> for a military
> > tank was "schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen".  That was a
> > Guiness record for word length.  Is there any wonder why it wasn't long
> > before people more often used "tank".  Even Germans often used a shorter
> > term "panzerauto" by WWII.  I'm among those that prefer the shorter term
> > Linux and find GNU adequately embedded, as are Torvald, open source
> > operating system, etc.
> 
> I call bullshit, i am not a linguist, but i speak german. Contrary to
> popular belief stringing together any number of words does not work,
> they have to make sense. "Schutzen Graben" is a defensive ditch,
> "Abwehr" is counter fire or defence, "vernichtung" is destruction,
> "kraft" is power, usually a prefix to a machine. ("LKW", or "Last
> Kraft Wagen" is heavy load power automobile or what we would call a
> truck, tractor trailer) "fahr" is drive, and "wagen" is wagon/car. As
> you can see stringing these words together is rather nonsensical, at
> best i can translate it to mean: the destruction of the defence(noun)
> in the defensive ditch with a drivable powered wagon.The german
> wikipedia article calls the first german tank: "schweren Kampfwagen"
> or Heavy Combat Wagon.
> 
> as for the 2nd word, the pre-WW2 german word for tank was "Schwerer
> Schlepper", which means Heavy Tractor. the reason being is that
> Germany was forbidden from building any sort of offensive military
> equipment and the soldiers and everybody who knew about these
> "tractors" was most likely sure to be told to keep their mouths shut
> to keep the secret in(not that it really was a secret). in any case
> the official name for tank in German before and during WW2 was "Panzer
> Kampf Wagen", Armoured Combat Wagon, and would most likely be
> shortened to Panzer or PanzerWagen or referred to by their military
> designation (Panzer III, Tiger I, Panther). PanzerAuto would refer
> more to an armoured car.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 16:27:04 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 16:27:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292135080.24785@localhost.localdomain>
References: <297346.29601.qm@web57001.mail.re3.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1006292135080.24785@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006301615340.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Yaron wrote:

> I just don't understand The Cloud mentality.

It's nice to be able to access your data from any machine.  It's nice to 
have someone else do your backups for you.  They don't even charge for 
this.  I think it's easy to see both good and bad in "The Cloud" (a 
strange name for giant metal boxes, by the way).


> I want my data on MY MACHINE, in my DIRECT CONTROL. I want my 
> applications running on my machines, in my direct control, because if 
> the apps are running somewhere else, then somewhere else has my data.

Me too.  I do use Google Contacts, Google Calendar and Gmail, but the 
thing I like is that I *do* store everything on my own computer.  You can 
have it both ways.  I would not use Gmail if I didn't have absolutely 
every message immediately available on my own box.  If Google vanishes 
tomorrow, I still have my data.


> I know I'm at the extreme on this. Ever since the late 90s I've been 
> running my own webservers, my own DNS servers and my own Email servers.

It's hard to run ones own email server.  I used to do it, but there are 
hassles.  That said, I might do it again someday.  Meanwhile, Gmail 
provides my SMTP server.


> I'm keeping my desktop, thank yoy. I'm keeping my 'monolithic' operating 
> system. I'm keeping my incredibly overcomplicated system, my incredibly 
> overcomplicated servers, my incredibly overcomplicated network setup, 
> and all my own data.

You are better off, but I suspect you do this kind of thing for a living. 
It isn't an approach that you can recommend to most people.


> And when there's a network outage, I'll still be able to access my 
> stuff.

If the network outage is at Google and you are at home, sure.  More 
likely, the network outage will be at home and you won't be there.  I'm 
saying that a network outage is more likely to keep you from your data if 
you are storing/managing your own data than if Google is doing it for you.

If Google is knocked off the web, it's probably worth about $10 million 
per hour for them to get back on, so you can bet they will be marshalling 
an awesome amount of technical power, attorneys, and anything else they 
can muster to fix it pronto.  My ISP (Comcast) didn't mind when the cable 
was torn from my house by a garbage truck in the back alley.  It took them 
almost a week to send someone out to fix it.  Meanwhile, I could still 
look at Gmail using my cell phone.

Mike


From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 16:39:28 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 16:39:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <AANLkTimgzruzwgBuuhCjje1opiIrf9zROc9A7Ei639mT@mail.gmail.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTilFuQRGSrJR5e4ia5KHTfW9fgoMoLORDtFcG0Ur@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry Chuck.  Your wikipedia article doesn't contain a cited source.  If
you're going to lob monkey poo in a flame war, at least have the sense to
not cite a wikipedia article that itself does not contain a verifiable
citation.  While there may be *something* to the origin of the word, I'm
forced to consider it unsubstantiated none-the-less.

That doesn't mean I don't like it.  In fact, I love it.

Can we come up with a long, ridiculous german word for "flame war on the
proper use of german on the internetz as it pertains to
schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen?"   I bet that would be
hella-long.

-Rob


On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Check the web and correct those sources.  This is not my invention: I used
> several web references to refresh my memories from German and linguistics.
>  This is prevalent, if not entirely precise and accurate.
>
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_December_11
>
>
> My German teacher back in college is where I first heard this, and later in
> linguistic refrences.  Perhaps you don't have enough gray hair.  This *is* a
> linguist's issue, and you say that is not your strength.  Long
> concatenations were common German usage 40 or more years ago, but I would
> not be surprised to find that modern usage has moved away from that as
> technology lingo became more commonplace and concatenation too cumbersome.
>
> Sorry, but yours is the specious and undocumented bullshit.
>
> Chuck
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Munir Nassar
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:44 AM
> > To: TCLUG Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 18:39, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > > Language perspective, not argument:  The old German WWI word
> > for a military
> > > tank was "schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen".  That was a
> > > Guiness record for word length.  Is there any wonder why it wasn't long
> > > before people more often used "tank".  Even Germans often used a
> shorter
> > > term "panzerauto" by WWII.  I'm among those that prefer the shorter
> term
> > > Linux and find GNU adequately embedded, as are Torvald, open source
> > > operating system, etc.
> >
> > I call bullshit, i am not a linguist, but i speak german. Contrary to
> > popular belief stringing together any number of words does not work,
> > they have to make sense. "Schutzen Graben" is a defensive ditch,
> > "Abwehr" is counter fire or defence, "vernichtung" is destruction,
> > "kraft" is power, usually a prefix to a machine. ("LKW", or "Last
> > Kraft Wagen" is heavy load power automobile or what we would call a
> > truck, tractor trailer) "fahr" is drive, and "wagen" is wagon/car. As
> > you can see stringing these words together is rather nonsensical, at
> > best i can translate it to mean: the destruction of the defence(noun)
> > in the defensive ditch with a drivable powered wagon.The german
> > wikipedia article calls the first german tank: "schweren Kampfwagen"
> > or Heavy Combat Wagon.
> >
> > as for the 2nd word, the pre-WW2 german word for tank was "Schwerer
> > Schlepper", which means Heavy Tractor. the reason being is that
> > Germany was forbidden from building any sort of offensive military
> > equipment and the soldiers and everybody who knew about these
> > "tractors" was most likely sure to be told to keep their mouths shut
> > to keep the secret in(not that it really was a secret). in any case
> > the official name for tank in German before and during WW2 was "Panzer
> > Kampf Wagen", Armoured Combat Wagon, and would most likely be
> > shortened to Panzer or PanzerWagen or referred to by their military
> > designation (Panzer III, Tiger I, Panther). PanzerAuto would refer
> > more to an armoured car.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 16:42:08 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 16:42:08 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <20100630121252.W31197@real-time.com>
References: <20100627214901.7b27f588.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com><AANLkTinHWfqQuCPrYULcJgtUbSjr13Wpq8Aef7BmXv7X@mail.gmail.com><7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01E@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<20100630113845.U31197@real-time.com>
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115E01F@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<20100630121252.W31197@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006301633050.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> I used to be fascinated by window managers. When I was teaching Linux 
> administration, I'd run a different WM on my laptop each day of class so 
> the students could see the different options.
>
> So I've tried dozens of them... and stuck with FVWM when I actually want 
> to do work.


How does FVWM compare with IceWM?  I've been using Ice because I think it 
doesn't use a lot of resources (e.g., memory).  How is FVWM in that 
regard?

Mike


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Wed Jun 30 16:50:28 2010
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 16:50:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <AANLkTimgzruzwgBuuhCjje1opiIrf9zROc9A7Ei639mT@mail.gmail.com> 
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AANLkTik-TDJNDdMmHTM67laTtrNze7ZGsR0hbEGjGEJg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 16:20, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> Check the web and correct those sources. ?This is not my invention: I used several web references to refresh my memories from German and linguistics. ?This is prevalent, if not entirely precise and accurate.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_December_11

i have read the above reference and all it is people recalling, as you
did, hearing or reading about this word but no actual citations to
bodies of work using this word.

>
> My German teacher back in college is where I first heard this, and later in linguistic refrences. ?Perhaps you don't have enough gray hair. ?This *is* a linguist's issue, and you say that is not your strength. ?Long concatenations were common German usage 40 or more years ago, but I would not be surprised to find that modern usage has moved away from that as technology lingo became more commonplace and concatenation too cumbersome.
>
> Sorry, but yours is the specious and undocumented bullshit.

While not orthodox, i did fact check my arguments against the German
and English wikipedia. I ask you to refute at least one of my
arguments before dismissing them.

As for my German, it has been many years since i have last lived there
but i converse in German with Germans on a regular monthly basis. I
know what these long concatenations are, i even used a common modern
example in one in my arguments. I did not call bullshit on the length
of the word, merely on the fact that the word does not seem to make
sense, and therefore does not seem likely. I also provided a reference
to what the first German tank was called. What part of my argument is
specious? What part of it is undocumented? Do you need me to come to
your house and read the wikipedia articles for you?

here are the articles that i have read about this,neither even
mentions this word.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_(1914?1933)

and here is the article on the LastKraftWagen that i also mentioned as
an example:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/LKW


From blutgens at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 17:07:25 2010
From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:07:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTik-TDJNDdMmHTM67laTtrNze7ZGsR0hbEGjGEJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimgzruzwgBuuhCjje1opiIrf9zROc9A7Ei639mT@mail.gmail.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTik-TDJNDdMmHTM67laTtrNze7ZGsR0hbEGjGEJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinZs0-ERdZC2AZb-0tjFCBuz46BMY5ZOrMqVaq6@mail.gmail.com>

Munir you know better than to feed that particular silly troll...

On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Munir Nassar <tclug at beitsahour.net> wrote:

> On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 16:20, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Check the web and correct those sources.  This is not my invention: I
> used several web references to refresh my memories from German and
> linguistics.  This is prevalent, if not entirely precise and accurate.
> >
> >
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_December_11
>
> i have read the above reference and all it is people recalling, as you
> did, hearing or reading about this word but no actual citations to
> bodies of work using this word.
>
> >
> > My German teacher back in college is where I first heard this, and later
> in linguistic refrences.  Perhaps you don't have enough gray hair.  This
> *is* a linguist's issue, and you say that is not your strength.  Long
> concatenations were common German usage 40 or more years ago, but I would
> not be surprised to find that modern usage has moved away from that as
> technology lingo became more commonplace and concatenation too cumbersome.
> >
> > Sorry, but yours is the specious and undocumented bullshit.
>
> While not orthodox, i did fact check my arguments against the German
> and English wikipedia. I ask you to refute at least one of my
> arguments before dismissing them.
>
> As for my German, it has been many years since i have last lived there
> but i converse in German with Germans on a regular monthly basis. I
> know what these long concatenations are, i even used a common modern
> example in one in my arguments. I did not call bullshit on the length
> of the word, merely on the fact that the word does not seem to make
> sense, and therefore does not seem likely. I also provided a reference
> to what the first German tank was called. What part of my argument is
> specious? What part of it is undocumented? Do you need me to come to
> your house and read the wikipedia articles for you?
>
> here are the articles that i have read about this,neither even
> mentions this word.
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_(1914?1933)
>
> and here is the article on the LastKraftWagen that i also mentioned as
> an example:
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/LKW
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Ben Lutgens
Linux / Unix System Administror

Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
"I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
      -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Jun 30 17:13:39 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 17:13:39 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006301703220.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 30 Jun 2010, Chuck Cole wrote:

> Check the web and correct those sources.  This is not my invention: I 
> used several web references to refresh my memories from German and 
> linguistics.  This is prevalent, if not entirely precise and accurate.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_December_11


But does that article support what you wrote, or what Munir Nassar wrote? 
I think it supports him more than you.  Your article says this, among 
other things:

    I've never heard of that word, and the German Panzer article has
    nothing about it. Google's search results make me believe it's just a
    joke by someone who wanted to invent a funny German word for tank.

    I agree; it seems absurdly complicated

    Pre WWII german tank AV7 is referred to as Sturmpanzerwagen, or
    Schwerer Kampfwagen in pages I have found. Can't discount the above
    long name though.

Other people report remembering learning the word as children, but so 
what?  What does that tell me except that the long word is probably some 
kind of joke played on children, sometimes by their German teachers?

When I was a kid, we used to say supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, but 
it was never a real word.  It's in Wikipedia, though:

    According to the 1964 Walt Disney film, it is defined as "something to
    say when you have nothing to say".

Mike


From rlarson at skypoint.com  Wed Jun 30 19:41:13 2010
From: rlarson at skypoint.com (Richard Larson)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 19:41:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
References: <AANLkTimgzruzwgBuuhCjje1opiIrf9zROc9A7Ei639mT@mail.gmail.com><KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEOADBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<AANLkTilFuQRGSrJR5e4ia5KHTfW9fgoMoLORDtFcG0Ur@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CF398F1FE2D0410C9A7C62D9B4FE9F53@700011g>

If you're talking about long words in German, you ought to check out Mark Twain's essay on "The Awful German Language." 
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robert Nesius 
  To: TCLUG Mailing List 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 4:39 PM
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?


  Sorry Chuck.  Your wikipedia article doesn't contain a cited source.  If you're going to lob monkey poo in a flame war, at least have the sense to not cite a wikipedia article that itself does not contain a verifiable citation.  While there may be something to the origin of the word, I'm forced to consider it unsubstantiated none-the-less. 

  That doesn't mean I don't like it.  In fact, I love it.  

  Can we come up with a long, ridiculous german word for "flame war on the proper use of german on the internetz as it pertains to schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen?"   I bet that would be hella-long.  

  -Rob  



  On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

    Check the web and correct those sources.  This is not my invention: I used several web references to refresh my memories from German and linguistics.  This is prevalent, if not entirely precise and accurate.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2006_December_11


    My German teacher back in college is where I first heard this, and later in linguistic refrences.  Perhaps you don't have enough gray hair.  This *is* a linguist's issue, and you say that is not your strength.  Long concatenations were common German usage 40 or more years ago, but I would not be surprised to find that modern usage has moved away from that as technology lingo became more commonplace and concatenation too cumbersome.

    Sorry, but yours is the specious and undocumented bullshit.

    Chuck



    > -----Original Message-----
    > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
    > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Munir Nassar
    > Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2010 9:44 AM
    > To: TCLUG Mailing List
    > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] What distros do you no longer use?
    >
    >
    > On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 18:39, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:
    > > Language perspective, not argument:  The old German WWI word
    > for a military
    > > tank was "schutzengrabenabwehrvernichtungskraftfahrwagen".  That was a
    > > Guiness record for word length.  Is there any wonder why it wasn't long
    > > before people more often used "tank".  Even Germans often used a shorter
    > > term "panzerauto" by WWII.  I'm among those that prefer the shorter term
    > > Linux and find GNU adequately embedded, as are Torvald, open source
    > > operating system, etc.
    >
    > I call bullshit, i am not a linguist, but i speak german. Contrary to
    > popular belief stringing together any number of words does not work,
    > they have to make sense. "Schutzen Graben" is a defensive ditch,
    > "Abwehr" is counter fire or defence, "vernichtung" is destruction,
    > "kraft" is power, usually a prefix to a machine. ("LKW", or "Last
    > Kraft Wagen" is heavy load power automobile or what we would call a
    > truck, tractor trailer) "fahr" is drive, and "wagen" is wagon/car. As
    > you can see stringing these words together is rather nonsensical, at
    > best i can translate it to mean: the destruction of the defence(noun)
    > in the defensive ditch with a drivable powered wagon.The german
    > wikipedia article calls the first german tank: "schweren Kampfwagen"
    > or Heavy Combat Wagon.
    >
    > as for the 2nd word, the pre-WW2 german word for tank was "Schwerer
    > Schlepper", which means Heavy Tractor. the reason being is that
    > Germany was forbidden from building any sort of offensive military
    > equipment and the soldiers and everybody who knew about these
    > "tractors" was most likely sure to be told to keep their mouths shut
    > to keep the secret in(not that it really was a secret). in any case
    > the official name for tank in German before and during WW2 was "Panzer
    > Kampf Wagen", Armoured Combat Wagon, and would most likely be
    > shortened to Panzer or PanzerWagen or referred to by their military
    > designation (Panzer III, Tiger I, Panther). PanzerAuto would refer
    > more to an armoured car.
    >
    > _______________________________________________
    > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
    > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
    > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
    >


    _______________________________________________
    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
    tclug-list at mn-linux.org
    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list





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  tclug-list at mn-linux.org
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From galanolwe at yahoo.com  Wed Jun 30 22:03:02 2010
From: galanolwe at yahoo.com (Olwe Bottorff)
Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2010 20:03:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1006301615340.19228@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <842278.51396.qm@web57004.mail.re3.yahoo.com>

When I was getting into computers, the coolest thing I knew were the Sun workstations. I was friends with a U of Washington grad student (ca '91-92) and he let me get on his workstation at school from time to time. The monitor, of course, was huge, but the "cpu" was this flat, pizza box-shaped thing. "There's a hard drive in their?" I asked. "Yeah, but it's very minimal. My stuff is 'on the net,'" he said. "Oh," I said.
At home I had a very minimal 486 with maybe 4mb ram and a 40mb hard drive, crappy monitor/card. So yes, even then, there was "cloud" i.e., the concept of "somewhere else" for "your stuff." I say the networked Unix workstation was "doing cloud computing" already 20-25 years ago. That was the Unix way, which was diametrically opposed to the weak, un-networked, single-user, single-processing, flaky DOS/Win PC experience. The whole Unix plan was a seamless, peer-to-peer world of Unix workstations growing and expanding.
Now we have Linux as a de facto 2nd-generation Unix workstation. But it has grown up in this PC world both hardware- and network-wise. Sure, there are developer shops that use Linux exactly as the Unixae of old were used, but for so many of us we're isolated "behind" some ISP, simply replacing a Microsoft "home" or "business" computer with a 21 century Unix box.
I'm not upset with Microsoft for the reasons most people are. I'm upset with them because they totally warped the evolution of computing into this crippled little "office/home" experience. Hey, they couldn't even do network file management until NT. For many years Novell had to do it for them. So the MS LAN experience, running MS Office on lame Windows iterations has so totally stunted computing that even these 20 years of Unix=Internet=Unix has only begun to roll the boulder aside. And of course we've accepted the MS control-freak model with our ISPs not allowing peer-to-peer, sticking us behind this or that barrier -- all for our own good -- because MS OSs have been for so many years so weak and poorly adapted to the Internet.
So no, "cloud" was what Unix was always about. Unix was like the beautiful, mysterious fairy princess that gave birth to a wonderful child (microprocessor?personal workstation computing, peer-to-peer, "network is the computer," academe/GNU mentality, Internet, etc.) and then had evil step parents (Microsoft) raise it. So is the child now grown up? Will Google obviate Microsoft?
OlweGrand Marais, MN

--- On Wed, 6/30/10, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Will Google rule with ChromeOS/Android?
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 2010, 4:27 PM

On Tue, 29 Jun 2010, Yaron wrote:

> I just don't understand The Cloud mentality.

It's nice to be able to access your data from any machine.? It's nice to 
have someone else do your backups for you.? They don't even charge for 
this.? I think it's easy to see both good and bad in "The Cloud" (a 
strange name for giant metal boxes, by the way).


> I want my data on MY MACHINE, in my DIRECT CONTROL. I want my 
> applications running on my machines, in my direct control, because if 
> the apps are running somewhere else, then somewhere else has my data.

Me too.? I do use Google Contacts, Google Calendar and Gmail, but the 
thing I like is that I *do* store everything on my own computer.? You can 
have it both ways.? I would not use Gmail if I didn't have absolutely 
every message immediately available on my own box.? If Google vanishes 
tomorrow, I still have my data.


> I know I'm at the extreme on this. Ever since the late 90s I've been 
> running my own webservers, my own DNS servers and my own Email servers.

It's hard to run ones own email server.? I used to do it, but there are 
hassles.? That said, I might do it again someday.? Meanwhile, Gmail 
provides my SMTP server.


> I'm keeping my desktop, thank yoy. I'm keeping my 'monolithic' operating 
> system. I'm keeping my incredibly overcomplicated system, my incredibly 
> overcomplicated servers, my incredibly overcomplicated network setup, 
> and all my own data.

You are better off, but I suspect you do this kind of thing for a living. 
It isn't an approach that you can recommend to most people.


> And when there's a network outage, I'll still be able to access my 
> stuff.

If the network outage is at Google and you are at home, sure.? More 
likely, the network outage will be at home and you won't be there.? I'm 
saying that a network outage is more likely to keep you from your data if 
you are storing/managing your own data than if Google is doing it for you.

If Google is knocked off the web, it's probably worth about $10 million 
per hour for them to get back on, so you can bet they will be marshalling 
an awesome amount of technical power, attorneys, and anything else they 
can muster to fix it pronto.? My ISP (Comcast) didn't mind when the cable 
was torn from my house by a garbage truck in the back alley.? It took them 
almost a week to send someone out to fix it.? Meanwhile, I could still 
look at Gmail using my cell phone.

Mike

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



      
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