From bure4czar at msn.com  Mon Mar  1 15:01:07 2010
From: bure4czar at msn.com (Rick Blevins)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 15:01:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on a USB thumbdrive (revisted)
In-Reply-To: <be48c3341002091813r750230adn2ca51baab47b8221@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1002091830530.5351@localhost.localdomain>,
	<20100209190132.dac347a9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>,
	<be48c3341002091813r750230adn2ca51baab47b8221@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT113-W387D660778A599A684E1DFB3C0@phx.gbl>


 

Returning to Linux on a USB drive... found this video that refers to a URL that can do this from both Windows and Linux, haven't tried it out yet:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohw-3uS7jTo

 

http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/

 

 


From: bure4czar at msn.com
To: tclug at freakzilla.com
CC: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: RE: [tclug-list] Linux on a USB thumbdrive
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:11:02 -0600



 

I just finished installing Puppy Arcade on flash drive. Worked perfectly, comes with an installer that you run from windows, reboot then you're done. Haven't explored the features yet. But the space invaders desktop is pretty sharp.
 
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/install-puppy-arcade-to-a-flash-drive-from-windows/


 
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:13:46 -0600
> From: ron.e.nelson at gmail.com
> To: tclug at freakzilla.com
> CC: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux on a USB thumbdrive
> 
> I've had success running http://www.backtrack-linux.org/ from the USB
> drive with files/state/updates all to the flash drive. Not too bad
> for general-purpose use even.
> 
> Ron
> 
> On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Jason Hsu, Linux user
> <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> >
> > I haven't installed Linux onto a USB FLASH drive, but I know that there are people out there who have.  You can go to that distro's forum and ask how to do this.
> >
> > Have you tried Puppy Linux or antiX Linux?  Puppy Linux is user-friendly and very lightweight - not much more than 100MB.  The full installation of antiX Linux would take up something like 430 MB on the USB drive, but its speed is competitive with Puppy Linux.  antiX Linux really blows away Puppy Linux in the software repository.
> >
> > I don't like Ubuntu because it's too slow and bloated, but then, my computers have only 256-384 MB of RAM.  Those with 1 GB of RAM or more would beg to differ.  Ubuntu has its merits, but operation on a slow machine and quick installation times are NOT among them.  So I don't think it would be suitable for a live CD or booting from the USB drive.
> >
> > On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:35:46 -0600 (CST)
> > Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > Has anyone here played with Linux on a USB thumbdrive? It seems more
> > > convenient to me than carrying a LiveCD around, plus you can, you know,
> > > save personalised settings.
> > >
> > > I've been trying for a few days and have had... mixed results. I've
> > > managed to get Ubuntu to make a copy of it's LiveCD on a thumbdrive, but
> > > then you end up with an Ubuntu Live CD. Which would be better than
> > > nothing, except even THAT doesn't always boot up all the way.
> > >
> > > I've tried plain ol' installing Ubuntu on the thumbdrive (even going so
> > > far as to remove the other harddrives from the system) but that won't boot
> > > all the way, either - they get stuck on the splash screen somewhere (even
> > > when I take "quiet" out of grub).
> > >
> > > I know about Damn Small Linux, but I'd rather have a system thats a biiit
> > > more current than 2.4 kernels and Firefox 2.0.
> > >
> > > Anyone have any experiences?
> > >
> > >
> > > -Yaron
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
> > --
> > Jason Hsu, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 
> --
> http://ronspace.org/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up now. 		 	   		  
_________________________________________________________________
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Mar  1 15:12:15 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 15:12:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on a USB thumbdrive (revisted)
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-W387D660778A599A684E1DFB3C0@phx.gbl>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1002091830530.5351@localhost.localdomain>,
	<20100209190132.dac347a9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>,
	<be48c3341002091813r750230adn2ca51baab47b8221@mail.gmail.com>
	<SNT113-W387D660778A599A684E1DFB3C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011511220.14380@localhost.localdomain>

Hi!

On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Rick Blevins wrote:

> Returning to Linux on a USB drive... found this video that refers to a URL
> that can do this from both Windows and Linux, haven't tried it out yet:

It turned out that the solution was, indeed, "Get a new thumbdrive."

Still no idea why it never worked on the old one, but it works like a 
charm on the new one (straightforward Ubuntu install).

-Yaron

--


From j at packetgod.com  Mon Mar  1 16:01:40 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:01:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux on a USB thumbdrive (revisted)
In-Reply-To: <SNT113-W387D660778A599A684E1DFB3C0@phx.gbl>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1002091830530.5351@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100209190132.dac347a9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<be48c3341002091813r750230adn2ca51baab47b8221@mail.gmail.com>
	<SNT113-W387D660778A599A684E1DFB3C0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003011401r45f73f4tcb0106301181b07d@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sure unetbootin was brought up at some point in this discussion.  But I
use it all the time, it works and you can use it in Windows even.

--j

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Rick Blevins <bure4czar at msn.com> wrote:

>
> Returning to Linux on a USB drive... found this video that refers to a URL
> that can do this from both Windows and Linux, haven't tried it out yet:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohw-3uS7jTo
>
> http://unetbootin.sourceforge.net/
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: bure4czar at msn.com
> To: tclug at freakzilla.com
> CC: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: RE: [tclug-list] Linux on a USB thumbdrive
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2010 11:11:02 -0600
>
>
>
> I just finished installing Puppy Arcade on flash drive. Worked perfectly,
> comes with an installer that you run from windows, reboot then you're done.
> Haven't explored the features yet. But the space invaders desktop is pretty
> sharp.
>
>
> http://www.pendrivelinux.com/install-puppy-arcade-to-a-flash-drive-from-windows/
>
>
>
> > Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2010 20:13:46 -0600
> > From: ron.e.nelson at gmail.com
> > To: tclug at freakzilla.com
> > CC: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux on a USB thumbdrive
> >
> > I've had success running http://www.backtrack-linux.org/ from the USB
> > drive with files/state/updates all to the flash drive. Not too bad
> > for general-purpose use even.
> >
> > Ron
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:01 PM, Jason Hsu, Linux user
> > <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I haven't installed Linux onto a USB FLASH drive, but I know that there
> are people out there who have.  You can go to that distro's forum and ask
> how to do this.
> > >
> > > Have you tried Puppy Linux or antiX Linux?  Puppy Linux is
> user-friendly and very lightweight - not much more than 100MB.  The full
> installation of antiX Linux would take up something like 430 MB on the USB
> drive, but its speed is competitive with Puppy Linux.  antiX Linux really
> blows away Puppy Linux in the software repository.
> > >
> > > I don't like Ubuntu because it's too slow and bloated, but then, my
> computers have only 256-384 MB of RAM.  Those with 1 GB of RAM or more would
> beg to differ.  Ubuntu has its merits, but operation on a slow machine and
> quick installation times are NOT among them.  So I don't think it would be
> suitable for a live CD or booting from the USB drive.
> > >
> > > On Tue, 9 Feb 2010 18:35:46 -0600 (CST)
> > > Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi all,
> > > >
> > > > Has anyone here played with Linux on a USB thumbdrive? It seems more
> > > > convenient to me than carrying a LiveCD around, plus you can, you
> know,
> > > > save personalised settings.
> > > >
> > > > I've been trying for a few days and have had... mixed results. I've
> > > > managed to get Ubuntu to make a copy of it's LiveCD on a thumbdrive,
> but
> > > > then you end up with an Ubuntu Live CD. Which would be better than
> > > > nothing, except even THAT doesn't always boot up all the way.
> > > >
> > > > I've tried plain ol' installing Ubuntu on the thumbdrive (even going
> so
> > > > far as to remove the other harddrives from the system) but that won't
> boot
> > > > all the way, either - they get stuck on the splash screen somewhere
> (even
> > > > when I take "quiet" out of grub).
> > > >
> > > > I know about Damn Small Linux, but I'd rather have a system thats a
> biiit
> > > > more current than 2.4 kernels and Firefox 2.0.
> > > >
> > > > Anyone have any experiences?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Yaron
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jason Hsu, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://ronspace.org/
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> ------------------------------
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up
> now. <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/>
> ------------------------------
> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. Get Windows Live Hotmail Free. Sign up
> now. <http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469229/direct/01/>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Mar  1 19:29:16 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:29:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>

Hey, can we make it so emails to this list hve a reply-to that actually 
goes to the list? Rather than to the original sender? I know it's been 
brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again! (:

-Yaron

--


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Mar  1 20:10:58 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 20:10:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 07:29:16PM -0600, Yaron wrote:
> Hey, can we make it so emails to this list hve a reply-to that actually 
> goes to the list? Rather than to the original sender? I know it's been 
> brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again! (:

... and can we also have the list spell-check the messages before they
are sent out to all the members?

Or, can the mailing list manager sniff out the user agent and notify
the subscribers of the availability of free and improved MUAs?  For
instance Mutt has as default key-bindings:
   'r' reply to sender
   'L' reply to list
It works quite well.  You can also set it to use VI as the editor...

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Mar  1 21:18:41 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 21:18:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012116250.11108@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> ... and can we also have the list spell-check the messages before they
> are sent out to all the members?

Come now. There are some standard things people expect from a mailing 
list. This list is the only one I'm on that DOESN'T add a Reply-To.

I personally have a TCLUG role in Alpine that automagically sets the 
return address (and the From: address, for that matter) whenever I reply 
to the list, so it's not a big deal.

Nonetheless, I don't consider a Reply-To header to be an unreasonable 
expectation from a mailing list.


-Yaron

--


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Mar  1 21:24:13 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 21:24:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 08:10:58PM -0600, Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 07:29:16PM -0600, Yaron wrote:
> > Hey, can we make it so emails to this list hve a reply-to that actually 
> > goes to the list? Rather than to the original sender? I know it's been 
> > brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again! (:
> 
> ... and can we also have the list spell-check the messages before they
> are sent out to all the members?
> 
> Or, can the mailing list manager sniff out the user agent and notify
> the subscribers of the availability of free and improved MUAs?  For
> instance Mutt has as default key-bindings:
>    'r' reply to sender
>    'L' reply to list
> It works quite well.  You can also set it to use VI as the editor...

Personally I need a mailing list manager that rejects messages which
have too low a pH level.  The message above was unnecessarily
inflammatory and unhelpful.

If I may try again:

Yaron,

What you need is to look back through the archives and find out why
the situation is what it is, and if your argument has been discussed
before, and if it was, why it was rejected or disconsidered.  Then, if
you have new supporting arguments, enumerate them.  After they are
considered and suitably discussed, ask for a vote.

Best,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 22:27:19 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:27:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003012027u4a759effr6b79ce4d9a700b43@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:24 PM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 08:10:58PM -0600, Florin Iucha wrote:
> > On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 07:29:16PM -0600, Yaron wrote:
> > > Hey, can we make it so emails to this list hve a reply-to that actually
> > > goes to the list? Rather than to the original sender? I know it's been
> > > brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again! (:
> >
> > ... and can we also have the list spell-check the messages before they
> > are sent out to all the members?
> >
> > Or, can the mailing list manager sniff out the user agent and notify
> > the subscribers of the availability of free and improved MUAs?  For
> > instance Mutt has as default key-bindings:
> >    'r' reply to sender
> >    'L' reply to list
> > It works quite well.  You can also set it to use VI as the editor...
>
> Personally I need a mailing list manager that rejects messages which
> have too low a pH level.  The message above was unnecessarily
> inflammatory and unhelpful.
>
> If I may try again:
>
> Yaron,
>
> What you need is to look back through the archives and find out why
> the situation is what it is, and if your argument has been discussed
> before, and if it was, why it was rejected or disconsidered.  Then, if
> you have new supporting arguments, enumerate them.  After they are
> considered and suitably discussed, ask for a vote.
>
> Best,
> florin
>
>

Go read 10 years of archives that aren't indexed by a search engine before
asking a question?  Do YOU do that before every post you submit?

Your follow up wasn't more helpful.  Just more condescending.

Best,
-Rob
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Mon Mar  1 22:34:53 2010
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (ecrist at secure-computing.net)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 04:34:53 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <cac10ddc1003012027u4a759effr6b79ce4d9a700b43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain><20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org><20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org><cac10ddc1003012027u4a759effr6b79ce4d9a700b43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <305955060-1267504478-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1115318149-@bda2199.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I LOVE FAMP! (Pun intended (along with the s/L/F)).   

:)

FWIW, it was extra effort, Reply-All instead of Reply-To (tough) to send this message from my phone.  My desktop would have been Cmd-Shift-R instead of Cmd-R (slightly less tough).  Rest assured I survived the ordeal.  (Whew!)


Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:27:19 
To: <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From florin at iucha.net  Mon Mar  1 22:43:47 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:43:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <cac10ddc1003012027u4a759effr6b79ce4d9a700b43@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<cac10ddc1003012027u4a759effr6b79ce4d9a700b43@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100302044347.GM25460@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 10:27:19PM -0600, Robert Nesius wrote:
> > What you need is to look back through the archives and find out why
> > the situation is what it is, and if your argument has been discussed
> > before, and if it was, why it was rejected or disconsidered.  Then, if
> > you have new supporting arguments, enumerate them.  After they are
> > considered and suitably discussed, ask for a vote.
> >
> Go read 10 years of archives that aren't indexed by a search engine before
> asking a question?  Do YOU do that before every post you submit?

   http://lmgtfy.com/?q=reply-to+header+site%3Amn-linux.org

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Mar  1 22:45:37 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 22:45:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>

On Mon, 1 Mar 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> What you need is to look back through the archives and find out why
> the situation is what it is, and if your argument has been discussed
> before, and if it was, why it was rejected or disconsidered.  Then, if
> you have new supporting arguments, enumerate them.  After they are
> considered and suitably discussed, ask for a vote.


From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Mar  1 23:54:31 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:54:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302044347.GM25460@iris.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<cac10ddc1003012027u4a759effr6b79ce4d9a700b43@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100302044347.GM25460@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003012154l493c7a1fl997dc2a7ebc94734@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 10:43 PM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 01, 2010 at 10:27:19PM -0600, Robert Nesius wrote:
> > > What you need is to look back through the archives and find out why
> > > the situation is what it is, and if your argument has been discussed
> > > before, and if it was, why it was rejected or disconsidered.  Then, if
> > > you have new supporting arguments, enumerate them.  After they are
> > > considered and suitably discussed, ask for a vote.
> > >
> > Go read 10 years of archives that aren't indexed by a search engine
> before
> > asking a question?  Do YOU do that before every post you submit?
>
>    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=reply-to+header+site%3Amn-linux.org
>
> florin
>
>
*applause*

Bravo.

...

I know you're missing the sarcasm.   It's okay.  I noticed you didn't
actually answer my question.   That's okay too - I know the answer.

-Rob
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From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Tue Mar  2 07:48:13 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 07:48:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>

> Plus we're geared towards occasionally helping people, and occasionally 
> these people are newbies. No problem, but quite often I get replies to my 
> reply that come directly to ME rather than to the list.
> 
> I think it'd be helpful for a lot of new users that our list had standard 
> mailing list behavior.

I realize I'm relatively new to this list, and I've been kind of lurking
lately, but I agree.  Not all mail clients have a reply list
functionality.  Yes, we can be condescending pricks and tell them to go
get a "real" mail client, but that's a load of BS in my opinion.

A GREAT example of a mail client that doesn't support Reply-To-List is
the Gmail interface.  Last I checked, for lists like this you've got to
Reply-To-All, then cut out the original sender's address.  Not too
difficult, but I would argue that's fairly annoying.

As a side note, the whole condescending, "I'm better than you because I
use <foo> as my <task> client" attitude that lurks in the Linux
community is unhelpful and if this list is serious about helping
newbies, then I would also argue that people need to check that attitude
at the door.  I know plenty of people who have nearly quit learning
Linux (including myself back in 2001) because of the unhelpful attitudes
many *nix users have.  This is a discussion for another day however.

-Adam


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Tue Mar  2 09:34:31 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 09:34:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <face7dfd1003020621v7ea58101r29519ed32887e1d1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<face7dfd1003020621v7ea58101r29519ed32887e1d1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100302153430.GA16238@weegee.ath.cx>

Its really funny that you mention that, since you replied directly to me
instead of the list, which personally I think drives home the point that
Yaron and I are arguing home a little more.

One thing a very wise former-president of a LUG once told me is that
with new Linux users, the goal is to rock the boat, not sink it.  We
already encourage them to learn a new interface, begin learning the
terminal, and switch many of their applications.  Telling them to switch
to mutt or another mail client over their web client (which, unless its
Outlook Web Access, probably works fine in Linux) is just a bit
excessive.

I would also argue that most of the mailing lists I frequent still have
the reply-to header, but most of those folks are programmers like me.
Programmers are inherently lazy by nature, so that could be the
reasoning for that. <.<

-Adam

On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 08:21:09AM -0600, Ben wrote:
>    Well a mailer which is built to support lists might be a better choice for
>    someone ?who finds this functionality useful. the "Reply-To" header has
>    pretty much been abandoned by most people for use in this way.
>    Heck just look at the dates on some of these posts
>    =)?[1]http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=X-Mailing-List+Header+RFC
>    But yeah, i can see where it would be annoying. I've mostly abandoned
>    messing with mutt in favor of gmail
> 
>    On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 7:48 AM, Adam Morris
>    <[2]adam.morris at redstargaming.net> wrote:
> 
>      > Plus we're geared towards occasionally helping people, and
>      occasionally
>      > these people are newbies. No problem, but quite often I get replies to
>      my
>      > reply that come directly to ME rather than to the list.
>      >
>      > I think it'd be helpful for a lot of new users that our list had
>      standard
>      > mailing list behavior.
> 
>      I realize I'm relatively new to this list, and I've been kind of lurking
>      lately, but I agree. ?Not all mail clients have a reply list
>      functionality. ?Yes, we can be condescending pricks and tell them to go
>      get a "real" mail client, but that's a load of BS in my opinion.
> 
>      A GREAT example of a mail client that doesn't support Reply-To-List is
>      the Gmail interface. ?Last I checked, for lists like this you've got to
>      Reply-To-All, then cut out the original sender's address. ?Not too
>      difficult, but I would argue that's fairly annoying.
> 
>      As a side note, the whole condescending, "I'm better than you because I
>      use <foo> as my <task> client" attitude that lurks in the Linux
>      community is unhelpful and if this list is serious about helping
>      newbies, then I would also argue that people need to check that attitude
>      at the door. ?I know plenty of people who have nearly quit learning
>      Linux (including myself back in 2001) because of the unhelpful attitudes
>      many *nix users have. ?This is a discussion for another day however.
>      -Adam
>      _______________________________________________
>      TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>      [3]tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>      [4]http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
>    --
>    Ben Lutgens
>    Linux / Unix System Administror
> 
>    Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad. ?Do you think:
>    "I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that
>    refrigerator"?
>    ? ? ? -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
> 
> References
> 
>    Visible links
>    1. http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=X-Mailing-List+Header+RFC
>    2. mailto:adam.morris at redstargaming.net
>    3. mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>    4. http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 10:04:32 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:04:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Adam Morris wrote:

>> Plus we're geared towards occasionally helping people, and occasionally 
>> these people are newbies. No problem, but quite often I get replies to 
>> my reply that come directly to ME rather than to the list.
>>
>> I think it'd be helpful for a lot of new users that our list had 
>> standard mailing list behavior.
>
> I realize I'm relatively new to this list, and I've been kind of lurking 
> lately, but I agree.  Not all mail clients have a reply list 
> functionality.  Yes, we can be condescending pricks and tell them to go 
> get a "real" mail client, but that's a load of BS in my opinion.


I think we should have the list do "Reply-To" because (1) I often get 
replies sent to me and not to the list when they were clearly meant for 
the list -- that happens more on this list than elsewhere, and (2) I'm 
used to lists that use "Reply-To" so that the keystrokes I'm used to 
performing will send my message "to all" on TCLUG instead of just to the 
list (what I want).  The argument against fixing this seems pretty weak to 
me.

Mike


From sraun at fireopal.org  Tue Mar  2 11:17:27 2010
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:17:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <aa4b83be94ca46ec09d769801b66551e.squirrel@www.fireopal.org>

On Tue, March 2, 2010 10:04 am, Mike Miller wrote:
> I think we should have the list do "Reply-To" because (1) I often get
> replies sent to me and not to the list when they were clearly meant for
> the list -- that happens more on this list than elsewhere, and (2) I'm
> used to lists that use "Reply-To" so that the keystrokes I'm used to
> performing will send my message "to all" on TCLUG instead of just to the
> list (what I want).  The argument against fixing this seems pretty weak to
> me.

Half the time I have a Reply-To-List function available, half the time I
don't. This is due to restrictions on a corporate firewall - I have to use
web-mail to read list mail from work, I use mutt at home.

If you're going to tell me 'get a client that had Reply-To-List', then you
better be able to tell me about one that I can use that has that. Does
anyone know of a web-mail client that implements Reply-To-List?

Personally, I find setting a Reply-To header to make the default reply go
to the list to be something that encourages community. I joined to
interact with many people, I _want_ to interact with many people - why
make it harder?

For a face-to-face analog - if I'm at a party, the default interaction is
with anyone within ear-shot at the party. If I want private communication
with a fellow attendee, I have to make an effort to achieve that privacy.
I find mailing lists to have an analog to that - most mailing lists are
set up because a community wants to talk to itself. Why make it harder to
maintain the sense of community?

-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org



From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar  2 11:23:40 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:23:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 10:04:32AM -0600
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>

On 03/02 10:04 , Mike Miller wrote:
> I think we should have the list do "Reply-To" because (1) I often get 
> replies sent to me and not to the list when they were clearly meant for 
> the list -- that happens more on this list than elsewhere, and (2) I'm 
> used to lists that use "Reply-To" so that the keystrokes I'm used to 
> performing will send my message "to all" on TCLUG instead of just to the 
> list (what I want).  The argument against fixing this seems pretty weak to 
> me.

I have to agree here. I've been around this list long enough (good grief,
11+ years now, tho not always subscribed) that I remember this debate coming
up before. 

I don't remember what the arguments were for the current behavior; mostly I
remember Chewie making them and that they were halfway sane. 

Personally, I much prefer the 'normal' behavior of replies going to the
list instead of to the individual.

I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be
autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However, I
think that would be rather irresponsible.

I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do such
things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so badly
it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please let me
know).

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Tue Mar  2 12:48:20 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:48:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100302184820.GA17880@weegee.ath.cx>

Yeah, well, like what happened with Ben earlier.  I'm fairly sure he
meant to send it to the list, but messed up.  If he didn't mean to, he
should let me know, and I'll apologize.

The argument against the Reply-To header is weak.  I'd bet money that
the number of people who are replying to the full list outweigh the
number of people who are replying to the poster.

-Adam

On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 10:04:32AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Adam Morris wrote:
> 
> >> Plus we're geared towards occasionally helping people, and occasionally 
> >> these people are newbies. No problem, but quite often I get replies to 
> >> my reply that come directly to ME rather than to the list.
> >>
> >> I think it'd be helpful for a lot of new users that our list had 
> >> standard mailing list behavior.
> >
> > I realize I'm relatively new to this list, and I've been kind of lurking 
> > lately, but I agree.  Not all mail clients have a reply list 
> > functionality.  Yes, we can be condescending pricks and tell them to go 
> > get a "real" mail client, but that's a load of BS in my opinion.
> 
> 
> I think we should have the list do "Reply-To" because (1) I often get 
> replies sent to me and not to the list when they were clearly meant for 
> the list -- that happens more on this list than elsewhere, and (2) I'm 
> used to lists that use "Reply-To" so that the keystrokes I'm used to 
> performing will send my message "to all" on TCLUG instead of just to the 
> list (what I want).  The argument against fixing this seems pretty weak to 
> me.
> 
> Mike
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Mar  2 13:03:32 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be
> autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However, I
> think that would be rather irresponsible.

Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the change, a 
couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people saying 
they're against it.

> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do such
> things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so badly
> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please let me
> know).

I think one of the problems we've got here is we're letting stuff like 
that atrophy quite badly.


-Yaron

--


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 13:32:01 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:32:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe1003021132h410a580ap7b6e522e0803f29@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <
chrome at real-time.com> wrote:

> [snip]
>
I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be
> autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However, I
> think that would be rather irresponsible.
>

Maybe.  Sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission.  :-)


> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do such
> things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so badly
> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please let me
> know).
>

I'll give it a whirl.  What needs to be done?

JT
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From jolexa at jolexa.net  Tue Mar  2 13:35:43 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:35:43 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>


On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0600 (CST), Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> 
>> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to
be
>> autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However,
I
>> think that would be rather irresponsible.
> 
> Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the change,
a 
> couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people
saying 
> they're against it.

I'm in favor of the change as well. But I didn't know it took such a large
thread to make changes like this, ha.

> 
>> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do
such
>> things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so
badly
>> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please
let
>> me
>> know).
> 
> I think one of the problems we've got here is we're letting stuff like 
> that atrophy quite badly.

There aren't even any TCLUG events/meetings so what is the point of an
updated website? :)

> 
> 
> -Yaron



From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 13:46:25 2010
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:46:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Trading code reviews
Message-ID: <ddf6f4ca1003021146r68729d95td0433bce666dc4c2@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom

I'm interested in trading code reviews with someone.
I have both hand-written and computer-written C++ code
that I'd like to have reviewed.  I'm working on an on line
code generator that writes C++ marshalling code based
on user input.   Ideally we could meet in the metro for the
review.

By way of example,  some of the code I want to review
is linked to from this page --
http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html


Cheers,
Brian Wood
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From jolexa at jolexa.net  Tue Mar  2 14:23:00 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 20:23:00 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>


On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:11:48 -0600, "Chris G." <thoth.serath at gmail.com>
wrote:
> because we love this list.  we all take care of each other, trading
> equipment, ideas, solving problems....

How is that related to the website being updated? I normally wouldn't even
bother to reply but I wanted to make it a point that you only replied to me
instead of the list itself. Ironic on this thread, I guess I will set my
own Reply-To from now on when posting here. :)
-Jeremy

> 
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0600 (CST), Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
>> wrote:
>> > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>> >
>> >> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted
to
>> be
>> >> autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally.
>> >> However,
>> I
>> >> think that would be rather irresponsible.
>> >
>> > Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the
>> > change,
>> a
>> > couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people
>> saying
>> > they're against it.
>>
>> I'm in favor of the change as well. But I didn't know it took such a
>> large
>> thread to make changes like this, ha.
>>
>> >
>> >> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do
>> such
>> >> things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so
>> badly
>> >> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please
>> let
>> >> me
>> >> know).
>> >
>> > I think one of the problems we've got here is we're letting stuff
like
>> > that atrophy quite badly.
>>
>> There aren't even any TCLUG events/meetings so what is the point of an
>> updated website? :)
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > -Yaron
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar  2 14:42:23 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:42:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe1003021132h410a580ap7b6e522e0803f29@mail.gmail.com>;
	from johntrammell@gmail.com on Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 01:32:01PM
	-0600
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003021132h410a580ap7b6e522e0803f29@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100302144223.I26363@real-time.com>

On 03/02 01:32 , John Trammell wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <
> chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> > [snip]
> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be
> > autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However, I
> > think that would be rather irresponsible.
> Maybe.  Sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission.  :-)

I know that. I do want to at least avoid the appearance of being an
autocrat; however benevolent an autocrat I might be. :)

Here's what I'm going to do. I'll give a week for anyone to chime in with a
solid vote or 3 for the status quo (not just a "I can deal with it, why
can't you?") __backed up by good reasons__. Absent that, I'll change the
list behavior. Even with it, I might change it anyway, since the current
behavior bugs the heck out of me too.

> > I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do such
> > things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so badly
> > it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please let me
> > know).
> 
> I'll give it a whirl.  What needs to be done?

I'll msg you privately. Mostly it just needs someone to take out some MySQL
code and fix up dead links.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 16:44:49 2010
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:44:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <82f04dc41003021444p5279ea6aod98687a4ded37861@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:29 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> Hey, can we make it so emails to this list hve a reply-to that actually
> goes to the list? Rather than to the original sender? I know it's been
> brought up before, but I'd like to bring it up again! (:
>
> -Yaron


+1

More like, +5000, if multiple voting is allowed.
It's kinda the point of a mailing list, you know?

Dan


From dean at ripperd.com  Tue Mar  2 18:12:42 2010
From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:12:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302144223.I26363@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>	<68dbb6fe1003021132h410a580ap7b6e522e0803f29@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100302144223.I26363@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <4B8DA97A.9050609@ripperd.com>

My vote as a very occasional poster is to change the reply-to to be the 
list address.


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  2 19:37:25 2010
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:37:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
Message-ID: <1267580245.5535.23.camel@robert>

I would like to see the change made also. 

[People who show initiative deserve promotion, people who resist
beneficial change should be fired. Carl, you rock!]



From thoth.serath at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 20:59:10 2010
From: thoth.serath at gmail.com (Chris G.)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:59:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>
Message-ID: <7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>

FIRST OF ALL I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU BEING THE ONLY ONE I REPLIED TO.
I WAS SPECIFICALLY REPLYING TO YOUR THREAD.  YOU DON'T SEE THE POINT?  I
HAVE NO TIME FOR ASSHOLES LIKE YOU, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THIS EMAIL.  YOU
WANT TO MAKE SHIT PERSONAL LOOK ME UP.  I LIVE AT 3637 5TH AVE S.  MY PHONE
NUMBER IS 763 355 0919
I CAN PLAY IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING FOR...
YOU ARE A FUCKING DUMB SHIT.  LETS MEET UP SOMETIME.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:

>
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:11:48 -0600, "Chris G." <thoth.serath at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > because we love this list.  we all take care of each other, trading
> > equipment, ideas, solving problems....
>
> How is that related to the website being updated? I normally wouldn't even
> bother to reply but I wanted to make it a point that you only replied to me
> instead of the list itself. Ironic on this thread, I guess I will set my
> own Reply-To from now on when posting here. :)
> -Jeremy
>
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0600 (CST), Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted
> to
> >> be
> >> >> autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally.
> >> >> However,
> >> I
> >> >> think that would be rather irresponsible.
> >> >
> >> > Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the
> >> > change,
> >> a
> >> > couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people
> >> saying
> >> > they're against it.
> >>
> >> I'm in favor of the change as well. But I didn't know it took such a
> >> large
> >> thread to make changes like this, ha.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do
> >> such
> >> >> things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so
> >> badly
> >> >> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please
> >> let
> >> >> me
> >> >> know).
> >> >
> >> > I think one of the problems we've got here is we're letting stuff
> like
> >> > that atrophy quite badly.
> >>
> >> There aren't even any TCLUG events/meetings so what is the point of an
> >> updated website? :)
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -Yaron
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From john.meier at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 21:22:45 2010
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 21:22:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65293fcc1003021922r45a3d445gf70b8fece488e8b@mail.gmail.com>

Holy fuck.  I'm gettin' off this list.

(When this thread is done - of course :))

Cheers!

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Chris G. <thoth.serath at gmail.com> wrote:

> FIRST OF ALL I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU BEING THE ONLY ONE I REPLIED
> TO.  I WAS SPECIFICALLY REPLYING TO YOUR THREAD.  YOU DON'T SEE THE POINT?
> I HAVE NO TIME FOR ASSHOLES LIKE YOU, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THIS EMAIL.  YOU
> WANT TO MAKE SHIT PERSONAL LOOK ME UP.  I LIVE AT 3637 5TH AVE S.  MY PHONE
> NUMBER IS 763 355 0919
> I CAN PLAY IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING FOR...
> YOU ARE A FUCKING DUMB SHIT.  LETS MEET UP SOMETIME.
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:11:48 -0600, "Chris G." <thoth.serath at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > because we love this list.  we all take care of each other, trading
>> > equipment, ideas, solving problems....
>>
>> How is that related to the website being updated? I normally wouldn't even
>> bother to reply but I wanted to make it a point that you only replied to
>> me
>> instead of the list itself. Ironic on this thread, I guess I will set my
>> own Reply-To from now on when posting here. :)
>> -Jeremy
>>
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0600 (CST), Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted
>> to
>> >> be
>> >> >> autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally.
>> >> >> However,
>> >> I
>> >> >> think that would be rather irresponsible.
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the
>> >> > change,
>> >> a
>> >> > couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people
>> >> saying
>> >> > they're against it.
>> >>
>> >> I'm in favor of the change as well. But I didn't know it took such a
>> >> large
>> >> thread to make changes like this, ha.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do
>> >> such
>> >> >> things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so
>> >> badly
>> >> >> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please
>> >> let
>> >> >> me
>> >> >> know).
>> >> >
>> >> > I think one of the problems we've got here is we're letting stuff
>> like
>> >> > that atrophy quite badly.
>> >>
>> >> There aren't even any TCLUG events/meetings so what is the point of an
>> >> updated website? :)
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -Yaron
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> >>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Tue Mar  2 22:11:48 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 22:11:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <65293fcc1003021922r45a3d445gf70b8fece488e8b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>	<7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>	<e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>	<7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
	<65293fcc1003021922r45a3d445gf70b8fece488e8b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B8DE184.2030906@redstargaming.net>

Yeah, this discussion is getting a little heated...

I think everyone needs to step back a moment and relax.

Carl's response to another fork in this thread sounds good, and it looks 
like we've got an answer to Yaron's original question.  Who would have 
thought a mailing list could get so heated over something as small as a 
"Reply-To" header.

-Adam

On 3/2/2010 9:22 PM, John Meier wrote:
> Holy fuck.  I'm gettin' off this list.
>
> (When this thread is done - of course :))
>
> Cheers!
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Chris G. <thoth.serath at gmail.com 
> <mailto:thoth.serath at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     FIRST OF ALL I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU BEING THE ONLY ONE I
>     REPLIED TO.  I WAS SPECIFICALLY REPLYING TO YOUR THREAD.  YOU
>     DON'T SEE THE POINT?  I HAVE NO TIME FOR ASSHOLES LIKE YOU, WITH
>     THE EXCEPTION OF THIS EMAIL.  YOU WANT TO MAKE SHIT PERSONAL LOOK
>     ME UP.  I LIVE AT 3637 5TH AVE S.  MY PHONE NUMBER IS 763 355 0919
>     I CAN PLAY IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING FOR...
>     YOU ARE A FUCKING DUMB SHIT.  LETS MEET UP SOMETIME.
>
>
>     On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net
>     <mailto:jolexa at jolexa.net>> wrote:
>
>
>         On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:11:48 -0600, "Chris G."
>         <thoth.serath at gmail.com <mailto:thoth.serath at gmail.com>>
>         wrote:
>         > because we love this list.  we all take care of each other,
>         trading
>         > equipment, ideas, solving problems....
>
>         How is that related to the website being updated? I normally
>         wouldn't even
>         bother to reply but I wanted to make it a point that you only
>         replied to me
>         instead of the list itself. Ironic on this thread, I guess I
>         will set my
>         own Reply-To from now on when posting here. :)
>         -Jeremy
>
>         >
>         > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Jeremy Olexa
>         <jolexa at jolexa.net <mailto:jolexa at jolexa.net>> wrote:
>         >
>         >>
>         >> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0600 (CST), Yaron
>         <tclug at freakzilla.com <mailto:tclug at freakzilla.com>>
>         >> wrote:
>         >> > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>         >> >
>         >> >> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so
>         if I wanted
>         to
>         >> be
>         >> >> autocratic about it I could just make the change
>         unilaterally.
>         >> >> However,
>         >> I
>         >> >> think that would be rather irresponsible.
>         >> >
>         >> > Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd
>         like the
>         >> > change,
>         >> a
>         >> > couple of people saying they don't need the change, and
>         zero people
>         >> saying
>         >> > they're against it.
>         >>
>         >> I'm in favor of the change as well. But I didn't know it
>         took such a
>         >> large
>         >> thread to make changes like this, ha.
>         >>
>         >> >
>         >> >> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think
>         we used to do
>         >> such
>         >> >> things on the www.tclug.org <http://www.tclug.org>
>         website, but that site is bit-rotted so
>         >> badly
>         >> >> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning
>         it up, please
>         >> let
>         >> >> me
>         >> >> know).
>         >> >
>         >> > I think one of the problems we've got here is we're
>         letting stuff
>         like
>         >> > that atrophy quite badly.
>         >>
>         >> There aren't even any TCLUG events/meetings so what is the
>         point of an
>         >> updated website? :)
>         >>
>         >> >
>         >> >
>         >> > -Yaron
>         >>
>         >>
>         >> _______________________________________________
>         >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>         >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>         >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>         >>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>         tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>         http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>    
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From j at packetgod.com  Tue Mar  2 22:29:25 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 22:29:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003022029w35a32706xe9ed85d6eaa5203@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps what this list needs is a kickban? :p

Anyways I think its pretty obvious that a reply to list is generally a good
idea and that there seem to be no serious objections so if its an easy
change lets do it.

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Chris G. <thoth.serath at gmail.com> wrote:

> REDACTED FOR DECENCY - SOMETHING ABOUT HAMSTERS AND OFFER TO LET US ALL TP
> HIS HOUSE
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:11:48 -0600, "Chris G." <thoth.serath at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > because we love this list.  we all take care of each other, trading
>> > equipment, ideas, solving problems....
>>
>> How is that related to the website being updated? I normally wouldn't even
>> bother to reply but I wanted to make it a point that you only replied to
>> me
>> instead of the list itself. Ironic on this thread, I guess I will set my
>> own Reply-To from now on when posting here. :)
>> -Jeremy
>>
>> >
>> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:35 PM, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:03:32 -0600 (CST), Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted
>> to
>> >> be
>> >> >> autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally.
>> >> >> However,
>> >> I
>> >> >> think that would be rather irresponsible.
>> >> >
>> >> > Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the
>> >> > change,
>> >> a
>> >> > couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people
>> >> saying
>> >> > they're against it.
>> >>
>> >> I'm in favor of the change as well. But I didn't know it took such a
>> >> large
>> >> thread to make changes like this, ha.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >> I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do
>> >> such
>> >> >> things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted so
>> >> badly
>> >> >> it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up, please
>> >> let
>> >> >> me
>> >> >> know).
>> >> >
>> >> > I think one of the problems we've got here is we're letting stuff
>> like
>> >> > that atrophy quite badly.
>> >>
>> >> There aren't even any TCLUG events/meetings so what is the point of an
>> >> updated website? :)
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -Yaron
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> >>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From nesius at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 22:54:26 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 22:54:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003022054w468a63edt609afb53b6edcae4@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Chris G. <thoth.serath at gmail.com> wrote:

> FIRST OF ALL I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU BEING THE ONLY ONE I REPLIED TO.
> ETC...
>
>
Was that satire?

-Rob
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  2 23:12:17 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:12:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list options.
Message-ID: <25f02f41003022112l76fcb2f6l2852db0c67ce5339@mail.gmail.com>

I think the list would make a great web site and a forums with a monitor
would be very nice.
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 00:12:54 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 00:12:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<de1f502969b411ea89917ebab1b210b1@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021211h21951075sf608bbeabcdf0db3@mail.gmail.com>
	<e41658b60ddfe4329e5dfd46b05df42a@jolexa.net>
	<7c055dc51003021859r5a773633r5d57e6680f08848d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003030010001.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

This is probably the most disturbing message I've seen on any list I've 
been on in the last 15 years.  That would be many lists and many thousands 
of messages, but most people have a fairly professional demeanor.  Can 
someone please remove this anonymous user from the list?  The address was 
thoth.serath at gmail.com.

Thanks.

Mike


On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Chris G. wrote:

> FIRST OF ALL I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOU BEING THE ONLY ONE I REPLIED TO.
> I WAS SPECIFICALLY REPLYING TO YOUR THREAD.  YOU DON'T SEE THE POINT?  I
> HAVE NO TIME FOR ASSHOLES LIKE YOU, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THIS EMAIL.  YOU
> WANT TO MAKE SHIT PERSONAL LOOK ME UP.  I LIVE AT 3637 5TH AVE S.  MY PHONE
> NUMBER IS 763 355 0919
> I CAN PLAY IF THAT IS WHAT YOU ARE SHOOTING FOR...
> YOU ARE A FUCKING DUMB SHIT.  LETS MEET UP SOMETIME.


From dave at sherohman.org  Wed Mar  3 03:24:01 2010
From: dave at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 03:24:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>

On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 01:03:32PM -0600, Yaron wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> > I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be
> > autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However, I
> > think that would be rather irresponsible.
> 
> Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the change, a 
> couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people saying 
> they're against it.

I've been holding my tongue thus far, as I'm no longer local to the LUG,
but, since you've said that there's nobody against it...  I'm against
it.

The canonical list of arguments against lists setting Reply-To would be
Chip Rosenthal's ""Reply-To" Munging Considered Harmful"[1], but that's
pretty ancient these days.  Google's first hit on it is a copy dated
2002, but Simon Hill's response, "Reply-To Munging Considered
Useful"[2], dates to at least 2000, so it's clearly older than that.

At some later point, Neale Pickett published ""Reply-To" Munging Still
Considered Harmful. Really."[3], in which he points out that, per RFC2822,
Reply-To is specifically to be used to indicate where the message's
author wants replies directed.  He then goes on to argue that, since the
list management software is not the author of the message, it is a
direct violation of the RFC for list software to set Reply-To.  (It
should use List-Post instead, as defined in RFC2369.  Unfortunately,
well over a decade later, clients which properly recognize List-Post
headers remain thin on the ground.)


Now that the historical archive has been presented, I'll finally get to
my reason for opposing the use of Reply-To headers by mailing list:
It's a matter of privacy and security.

Put simply, if a message which is intended to be public is sent
privately, it causes little to no harm.  As already seen on this thread,
it's easy for the recipient to include it in a public response, or the
original sender can trivially re-send it to the correct address.  The
net result is a minor inconvenience for the sender (who has to send it
twice) and possibly a minor annoyance for the private version's
recipient (who will receive two copies unless their mail software is
smart enough to filter out the duplicate).

A message intended to be private which is unintentionally made public,
on the other hand, can cause significant harm, ranging from simple
embarassment[4] to professional problems[5] to actual physical
danger[6].  Even when you consider that Reply-To munging will prevent
more problems than it causes, the potential damage caused by a single
exposure of private information is so much greater than the damage
caused by replies being unintentionally private that I believe, in the
balance, the net harm caused by Reply-To munging is greater than the net
benefit it provides.


But, like I said, I'm no longer local to the LUG and I hardly ever post
here any more, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.  My main
point is simply to present the arguments against Reply-To munging by
mailing list software because nobody else has done so.  If you decide to
start setting Reply-To headers anyhow, it's no skin off my teeth.


[1] http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
[2] http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml
[3] http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html
[4] Someone discovering that you're going out with friends
    after lying to them about being sick
[5] A journalist accidentally revealing connections to an anonymous
    source
[6] See "Harriet Jacobs" (pseudonym), whose contacts and Google Reader
    data were automatically exposed to her abusive ex-husband by the
    Buzz launch; unfortunately, while you can find many references to
    the incident, her original rant describing it is no longer public

-- 
Dave Sherohman


From jherrick at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 06:55:24 2010
From: jherrick at gmail.com (Jim Herrick)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 07:55:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <4B8E5C3C.8030104@gmail.com>

  On 3/3/2010 4:24 AM, Dave Sherohman wrote:
> Now that the historical archive has been presented, I'll finally get to
> my reason for opposing the use of Reply-To headers by mailing list:
> It's a matter of privacy and security.

A fairly well thought-out post which refers to the "historical" posts:
http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/list-reply-to.html

Traditionally a Windows desktop guy, I've made the transition to mostly 
FOSS desktop applications, including almost *everything* from Mozilla. 
Thunderbird (specifically the nightly build, Shredder, currently at 
3.2a1) does a really good job of this.  I had a Reply List button on 
this message that is native to the app.  In my case, the MUA has solved 
the problem for me.

Jim

P.S. As a side note, I couldn't be happier with my email/calendaring 
experience at the moment.  Lightning (the calendar add-on for 
Thunderbird) plus the Google Data Provider gives me up-to-date 
read-and-write access to my shared Gmail Calendars, which is more 
functionality than I've ever had at home...


From j at packetgod.com  Wed Mar  3 07:34:43 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 07:34:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003030534m50c1bf23jdeb7003b30f2a12d@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Mr Buzz Kill with your well researched and logical arguments.  Well
my research indicates that I like reply-to-list better.

While your points are certainly valid I think that 99% of the time on a list
like this one the default action would be reply-to-list and if someone does
accidentally reply to the list when they didn't want to it would most likely
be some side geekery too inane for public consumption.  I could see how the
"Lets talk about our cheating abusive husbands/wives/hamsters" list might
not be that way.

But I'll change my vote to: Whatever

AND IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH ME YOU CAN COME TP MY HOUSE AT 1006 SUMMIT
AVENUE!



On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:24 AM, Dave Sherohman <dave at sherohman.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 01:03:32PM -0600, Yaron wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> > > I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to
> be
> > > autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However,
> I
> > > think that would be rather irresponsible.
> >
> > Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the change,
> a
> > couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people
> saying
> > they're against it.
>
> I've been holding my tongue thus far, as I'm no longer local to the LUG,
> but, since you've said that there's nobody against it...  I'm against
> it.
>
> The canonical list of arguments against lists setting Reply-To would be
> Chip Rosenthal's ""Reply-To" Munging Considered Harmful"[1], but that's
> pretty ancient these days.  Google's first hit on it is a copy dated
> 2002, but Simon Hill's response, "Reply-To Munging Considered
> Useful"[2], dates to at least 2000, so it's clearly older than that.
>
> At some later point, Neale Pickett published ""Reply-To" Munging Still
> Considered Harmful. Really."[3], in which he points out that, per RFC2822,
> Reply-To is specifically to be used to indicate where the message's
> author wants replies directed.  He then goes on to argue that, since the
> list management software is not the author of the message, it is a
> direct violation of the RFC for list software to set Reply-To.  (It
> should use List-Post instead, as defined in RFC2369.  Unfortunately,
> well over a decade later, clients which properly recognize List-Post
> headers remain thin on the ground.)
>
>
> Now that the historical archive has been presented, I'll finally get to
> my reason for opposing the use of Reply-To headers by mailing list:
> It's a matter of privacy and security.
>
> Put simply, if a message which is intended to be public is sent
> privately, it causes little to no harm.  As already seen on this thread,
> it's easy for the recipient to include it in a public response, or the
> original sender can trivially re-send it to the correct address.  The
> net result is a minor inconvenience for the sender (who has to send it
> twice) and possibly a minor annoyance for the private version's
> recipient (who will receive two copies unless their mail software is
> smart enough to filter out the duplicate).
>
> A message intended to be private which is unintentionally made public,
> on the other hand, can cause significant harm, ranging from simple
> embarassment[4] to professional problems[5] to actual physical
> danger[6].  Even when you consider that Reply-To munging will prevent
> more problems than it causes, the potential damage caused by a single
> exposure of private information is so much greater than the damage
> caused by replies being unintentionally private that I believe, in the
> balance, the net harm caused by Reply-To munging is greater than the net
> benefit it provides.
>
>
> But, like I said, I'm no longer local to the LUG and I hardly ever post
> here any more, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.  My main
> point is simply to present the arguments against Reply-To munging by
> mailing list software because nobody else has done so.  If you decide to
> start setting Reply-To headers anyhow, it's no skin off my teeth.
>
>
> [1] http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
> [2] http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml
> [3] http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html<http://woozle.org/%7Eneale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html>
> [4] Someone discovering that you're going out with friends
>    after lying to them about being sick
> [5] A journalist accidentally revealing connections to an anonymous
>    source
> [6] See "Harriet Jacobs" (pseudonym), whose contacts and Google Reader
>    data were automatically exposed to her abusive ex-husband by the
>    Buzz launch; unfortunately, while you can find many references to
>    the incident, her original rant describing it is no longer public
>
> --
> Dave Sherohman
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jjensen at apache.org  Wed Mar  3 08:07:46 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:07:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <008601cabada$ea5c8810$bf159830$@org>

I was waiting for the below argument to appear!  For me, it is the same as
"don't bottom post" - they are both grounded in reason, but both are still a
pain in the ass...

I vote to change to reply to list.


-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Dave Sherohman
Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 3:24 AM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list

On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 01:03:32PM -0600, Yaron wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> > I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be
> > autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However,
I
> > think that would be rather irresponsible.
> 
> Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the change, a

> couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people saying

> they're against it.

I've been holding my tongue thus far, as I'm no longer local to the LUG,
but, since you've said that there's nobody against it...  I'm against
it.

The canonical list of arguments against lists setting Reply-To would be
Chip Rosenthal's ""Reply-To" Munging Considered Harmful"[1], but that's
pretty ancient these days.  Google's first hit on it is a copy dated
2002, but Simon Hill's response, "Reply-To Munging Considered
Useful"[2], dates to at least 2000, so it's clearly older than that.

At some later point, Neale Pickett published ""Reply-To" Munging Still
Considered Harmful. Really."[3], in which he points out that, per RFC2822,
Reply-To is specifically to be used to indicate where the message's
author wants replies directed.  He then goes on to argue that, since the
list management software is not the author of the message, it is a
direct violation of the RFC for list software to set Reply-To.  (It
should use List-Post instead, as defined in RFC2369.  Unfortunately,
well over a decade later, clients which properly recognize List-Post
headers remain thin on the ground.)


Now that the historical archive has been presented, I'll finally get to
my reason for opposing the use of Reply-To headers by mailing list:
It's a matter of privacy and security.

Put simply, if a message which is intended to be public is sent
privately, it causes little to no harm.  As already seen on this thread,
it's easy for the recipient to include it in a public response, or the
original sender can trivially re-send it to the correct address.  The
net result is a minor inconvenience for the sender (who has to send it
twice) and possibly a minor annoyance for the private version's
recipient (who will receive two copies unless their mail software is
smart enough to filter out the duplicate).

A message intended to be private which is unintentionally made public,
on the other hand, can cause significant harm, ranging from simple
embarassment[4] to professional problems[5] to actual physical
danger[6].  Even when you consider that Reply-To munging will prevent
more problems than it causes, the potential damage caused by a single
exposure of private information is so much greater than the damage
caused by replies being unintentionally private that I believe, in the
balance, the net harm caused by Reply-To munging is greater than the net
benefit it provides.


But, like I said, I'm no longer local to the LUG and I hardly ever post
here any more, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.  My main
point is simply to present the arguments against Reply-To munging by
mailing list software because nobody else has done so.  If you decide to
start setting Reply-To headers anyhow, it's no skin off my teeth.


[1] http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
[2] http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml
[3] http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html
[4] Someone discovering that you're going out with friends
    after lying to them about being sick
[5] A journalist accidentally revealing connections to an anonymous
    source
[6] See "Harriet Jacobs" (pseudonym), whose contacts and Google Reader
    data were automatically exposed to her abusive ex-husband by the
    Buzz launch; unfortunately, while you can find many references to
    the incident, her original rant describing it is no longer public

-- 
Dave Sherohman

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From admin at lctn.org  Wed Mar  3 08:10:08 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 08:10:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] best packet sniffer
Message-ID: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org>

I need to set up a box at our pop to sniff inbound and outbound traffic. 
I want to set it up as a passive device, or connect to a monitoring port 
on our switch, so if the box fails it does not kill our traffic. The 
device will need to be able to monitor thousands of connections without 
choking. I am pretty sure I would only turn it on when it seemed there 
was suspicious traffic at one of our member schools. Any recommendations 
of a stable solution with a nice interface??

Raymond



From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 08:22:50 2010
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:22:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain> 
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org> 
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain> 
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu> 
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain> 
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <27e6356a1003030622s3aa4c0e6i8462a76a4dd02718@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm...this seems worthy of a response.

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:24 AM, Dave Sherohman <dave at sherohman.org> wrote:
> Reply-To is specifically to be used to indicate where the message's
> author wants replies directed. ?He then goes on to argue that, since the
> list management software is not the author of the message, it is a
> direct violation of the RFC for list software to set Reply-To.

This makes a certain amount of sense, however there are very few
instances that I have noted where someone sending e-mail to this list
would prefer to be replied to off list.  The general assumption that
can be made is that if someone sends a message to this list, (s)he
would like to be replied to on list, unless otherwise stated.
And even this exception could be overcome with a second e-mail address
to send a message to, if you would prefer that people specifically
reply off-list.  It also takes the guesswork out of the social aspect
of it.  (Does this person really WANT a public response to the
question of whether vi or emacs is better, or is (s)he just hoping to
get a hundred private responses so (s)he feels popular?)
In addition, I have had a conversation or two where I responded to
someone's question on list and they repeatedly responded to me
off-list, when the most helpful way to proceed would be to continue to
reply on list.  In hindsight, I believe that these people were not
trying to take advantage of my kindness, but honestly made repeated
mistakes because they expected the "reply" button to send a message to
where I wanted the message to be replied to.

> [4] Someone discovering that you're going out with friends
> ? ?after lying to them about being sick

Karmic justice? Sure it's embarrassing, but if you lie enough you will
be found out, be it through the TCLUG mailing list or elsewhere.

> [6] See "Harriet Jacobs" (pseudonym), whose contacts and Google Reader
> ? ?data were automatically exposed to her abusive ex-husband by the
> ? ?Buzz launch; unfortunately, while you can find many references to
> ? ?the incident, her original rant describing it is no longer public

I don't think this example really applies here.  Or maybe it applies
better to the argument for munging.
The Buzz launch did not reveal details due to people accidentally
e-mailing a list rather than a specific person.  Actually the problem
was that it revealed too many details to pretty much anyone who you
may have sent an e-mail to.  I have a lot of recommended contacts
merely because I hit "reply-all" to certain things that I could have
otherwise hit "reply" to and had the message sent to the list, and not
have another automatic entry in my address book.  I could also change
that setting, if I was overly concerned.

Note that anything I didn't quote and respond to, I don't disagree
with.  I think your argument was generally well thought out and well
presented.
I do still vote to change the reply-to to the list, though.
- Justin


From kris.browne at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 09:01:27 2010
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 09:01:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <4b8e79cc.86c3f10a.46be.37cd@mx.google.com>

Email is a great example of inertia vs spec... Actual use, across the massive number of clients across the spectrum, rather defines the best practices rather than what RFC writers over a decade ago wanted.

I do email on 4+ platforms, including 2 mobile devices which are most definitely not going to include list-post anytime soon... As such I am in favor of the change.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Mar 3, 2010 3:27, Dave Sherohman &lt;dave at sherohman.org&gt; wrote: 

On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 01:03:32PM -0600, Yaron wrote:

&gt; On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

&gt; &gt; I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be

&gt; &gt; autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However, I

&gt; &gt; think that would be rather irresponsible.

&gt; 

&gt; Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the change, a 

&gt; couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people saying 

&gt; they're against it.



I've been holding my tongue thus far, as I'm no longer local to the LUG,

but, since you've said that there's nobody against it...  I'm against

it.



The canonical list of arguments against lists setting Reply-To would be

Chip Rosenthal's ""Reply-To" Munging Considered Harmful"[1], but that's

pretty ancient these days.  Google's first hit on it is a copy dated

2002, but Simon Hill's response, "Reply-To Munging Considered

Useful"[2], dates to at least 2000, so it's clearly older than that.



At some later point, Neale Pickett published ""Reply-To" Munging Still

Considered Harmful. Really."[3], in which he points out that, per RFC2822,

Reply-To is specifically to be used to indicate where the message's

author wants replies directed.  He then goes on to argue that, since the

list management software is not the author of the message, it is a

direct violation of the RFC for list software to set Reply-To.  (It

should use List-Post instead, as defined in RFC2369.  Unfortunately,

well over a decade later, clients which properly recognize List-Post

headers remain thin on the ground.)





Now that the historical archive has been presented, I'll finally get to

my reason for opposing the use of Reply-To headers by mailing list:

It's a matter of privacy and security.



Put simply, if a message which is intended to be public is sent

privately, it causes little to no harm.  As already seen on this thread,

it's easy for the recipient to include it in a public response, or the

original sender can trivially re-send it to the correct address.  The

net result is a minor inconvenience for the sender (who has to send it

twice) and possibly a minor annoyance for the private version's

recipient (who will receive two copies unless their mail software is

smart enough to filter out the duplicate).



A message intended to be private which is unintentionally made public,

on the other hand, can cause significant harm, ranging from simple

embarassment[4] to professional problems[5] to actual physical

danger[6].  Even when you consider that Reply-To munging will prevent

more problems than it causes, the potential damage caused by a single

exposure of private information is so much greater than the damage

caused by replies being unintentionally private that I believe, in the

balance, the net harm caused by Reply-To munging is greater than the net

benefit it provides.





But, like I said, I'm no longer local to the LUG and I hardly ever post

here any more, so I don't really have a dog in this fight.  My main

point is simply to present the arguments against Reply-To munging by

mailing list software because nobody else has done so.  If you decide to

start setting Reply-To headers anyhow, it's no skin off my teeth.





[1] http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html

[2] http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml

[3] http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html

[4] Someone discovering that you're going out with friends

    after lying to them about being sick

[5] A journalist accidentally revealing connections to an anonymous

    source

[6] See "Harriet Jacobs" (pseudonym), whose contacts and Google Reader

    data were automatically exposed to her abusive ex-husband by the

    Buzz launch; unfortunately, while you can find many references to

    the incident, her original rant describing it is no longer public



-- 

Dave Sherohman



_______________________________________________

TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota

tclug-list at mn-linux.org

http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From kc0iog at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 09:21:09 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 09:21:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] best packet sniffer
In-Reply-To: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org>
References: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <2c6699da1003030721y17784eeatfe06538e5fd4609f@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 8:10 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
> I need to set up a box at our pop to sniff inbound and outbound traffic.
> I want to set it up as a passive device, or connect to a monitoring port
> on our switch, so if the box fails it does not kill our traffic.

I've noticed that Wireshark will slowly die if you feed it too much
traffic.  I think it will still populate the capture file, but the
interface will be dead if you try to feed it too much.

My favorite sniffer (though costly) is Network Observer from Network
Instruments.  The Observer package ($2500 as I recall) coupled with
the the ethernet splitter ($1500 as I recall) is exactly what you're
looking for, although that's a huge chunk of change so obviously you
have to need it pretty badly.  The nice folks at NI work just up the
road from me, I've worked with them for a few years and have had
outstanding success with their tools.

Regardless of the tool, make sure the box has gobs of disk and gobs of
RAM if you intend to capture for long periods.  Also, most capture
tools will wrap the logs after awhile, so if you're doing a long
running sniff make sure you tewak the log settings.

A quick and dirty approach is just to use 'tcpdump -i eth0 >
mybigfatfile' , then use a tool like Wireshark to analyze the capture
later.

Brian


From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Wed Mar  3 09:29:43 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 09:29:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] best packet sniffer
In-Reply-To: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org>
References: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <4B8E8067.2030904@soul-dev.com>

On 03/03/10 08:10, Raymond Norton wrote:
> I need to set up a box at our pop to sniff inbound and outbound traffic.
> I want to set it up as a passive device, or connect to a monitoring port
> on our switch, so if the box fails it does not kill our traffic. The
> device will need to be able to monitor thousands of connections without
> choking. I am pretty sure I would only turn it on when it seemed there
> was suspicious traffic at one of our member schools. Any recommendations
> of a stable solution with a nice interface??
>
> Raymond
>    
YAY a fun question!!!

I believe tcpdump/libpcap would be the de facto standard. Plenty of 
options, runs via the terminal and has no dependency on X. If you want 
to use a PCAP port on a switch (best way) then nothing you can do on the 
sniffer box will interfere with any traffic. The issue I tend to run 
into is processing power and speed of the NIC.

The device I usually use has two NICs, one for the actual packet 
capture, the other is on the local segment and writes the PCAPs to a 
remote NFS server for safe keeping and later analysis using Wireshark, 
which has that nice interface, but also requires X and a window manager 
(or Windows). You could also substitute Wireshark for tcpdump but being 
that it is a resource hog, and tends to lag and miss packets when used 
solely for packet capture, especially under heavy loads.

This option will produce an awful lot of data to go through by hand, but 
can be filtered accordingly to your suspicions.

You may also want to look into an IDS if you are worried about possible 
intrusions, such as SNORT (the meat of the IDS/sigs/etc..) and BASE (for 
analyzing snorts findings). Again, if this was located on a PCAP port, 
it will not interfere with normal traffic.

Keep in mind, should be kept as confidential as possible, as there may 
be passwords and usernames floating around your PCAP files.

~Mr. MailingLists

Bah, Brian you beat me to it ;-) Cheers!


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Mar  3 09:41:57 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 09:41:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] best packet sniffer
In-Reply-To: <4B8E8067.2030904@soul-dev.com>
References: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org> <4B8E8067.2030904@soul-dev.com>
Message-ID: <4B8E8345.7000604@lctn.org>



Mr. MailingLists wrote:
> On 03/03/10 08:10, Raymond Norton wrote:
>> I need to set up a box at our pop to sniff inbound and outbound traffic.
>> I want to set it up as a passive device, or connect to a monitoring port
>> on our switch, so if the box fails it does not kill our traffic. The
>> device will need to be able to monitor thousands of connections without
>> choking. I am pretty sure I would only turn it on when it seemed there
>> was suspicious traffic at one of our member schools. Any recommendations
>> of a stable solution with a nice interface??
>>
>> Raymond
>>    
> YAY a fun question!!!




I used to keep a snort box around for sniffing, but not at this scale. 
Do you think it would be a good solution for my setup, as long as it 
meets the hardware specs?



From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Wed Mar  3 09:41:20 2010
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 09:41:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <4b8e79cc.86c3f10a.46be.37cd@mx.google.com>
References: <4b8e79cc.86c3f10a.46be.37cd@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <1267630880.24185.1362904253@webmail.messagingengine.com>

I prefer to retain the current configuration. It is in-line with the way
most emails work when replying to the message.


From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Wed Mar  3 10:09:33 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:09:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] best packet sniffer
In-Reply-To: <4B8E8345.7000604@lctn.org>
References: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org> <4B8E8067.2030904@soul-dev.com>
	<4B8E8345.7000604@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <4B8E89BD.1070508@soul-dev.com>

On 03/03/10 09:41, Raymond Norton wrote:
>
> Mr. MailingLists wrote:
>    
>> On 03/03/10 08:10, Raymond Norton wrote:
>>      
>>> I need to set up a box at our pop to sniff inbound and outbound traffic.
>>> I want to set it up as a passive device, or connect to a monitoring port
>>> on our switch, so if the box fails it does not kill our traffic. The
>>> device will need to be able to monitor thousands of connections without
>>> choking. I am pretty sure I would only turn it on when it seemed there
>>> was suspicious traffic at one of our member schools. Any recommendations
>>> of a stable solution with a nice interface??
>>>
>>> Raymond
>>>
>>>        
>> YAY a fun question!!!
>>      
>
>
>
> I used to keep a snort box around for sniffing, but not at this scale.
> Do you think it would be a good solution for my setup, as long as it
> meets the hardware specs?
>
>
>    
I absolutely believe so. It was designed to be a IDS for large 
infrastructures and as long as you match the specs, plus maybe 20% 
better in case of bursts (and have scalability options), I know this 
would be a great solution. I wish I was only so lucky to go to a school 
where they actively monitored intrusions, as well as possible botnet, 
malware, p2p activity. Well, maybe not p2p ;-), too many valid reasons 
not to.

There are so many ways to configure SNORT, from packet header 
inspection, to deep scanning packet payloads, to anything in between. 
So, if one configuration does not seem to meet your specs, tune away!

Mr. M


From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu  Wed Mar  3 09:43:07 2010
From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 09:43:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <30959.152.65.129.201.1267630987.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>

On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 03:24:01AM -0600, Dave Sherohman wrote:
> On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 01:03:32PM -0600, Yaron wrote:
> > On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> > > I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted
to be
> > > autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally.
However, I
> > > think that would be rather irresponsible.
> >
> > Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the
change, a
> > couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people
saying
> > they're against it.
>
> I've been holding my tongue thus far, as I'm no longer local to the LUG,
> but, since you've said that there's nobody against it...  I'm against
> it.

<snip>

Dave,

Thanks for making the reply that I was going to make, but doing
a much better job of it than I would have.

I too would like to avoid setting the reply-to.  If you like the
reply-to set to the list, then I suggest that you set up your MUA
so that it does sets the headers appropriately.

I don't post to the list all that much anymore, but when I do it
is still fairly common for someone to intentionally send me a
private thank you or other message that wouldn't be useful to the
entire list.  I also ocassionally get private followups that
should have gone to the list, but I woould guess that I get more
of the former.

So I would like to keep the list the way it is, though I am
resigned to probably losing this one.

Another area that this list has been drifting on is posting
style. I would like to encourage people to please bottom post and
trim posts.  I know that long term this is a losing battle, but
I hope that this list can hang on for a few more years ;).

PS - Both the MUA wrote this message in (mutt) and the MUA I am posting
from (SquirrelMail) have deal correctly with Post List.

-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List
(TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/
Never laugh at live dragons  |





From florin at iucha.net  Wed Mar  3 11:05:54 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:05:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
Message-ID: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>

My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
drivers.

The old choice was Soekris [1] but they seem to be longer in the tooth
and in the price: ~$270 for just the box and the motherboard, with the
wireless being extra.

Now, it seems that the top contenders are MicroTik RouterBoard [2] and
Ubiquiti RouterStationPRO [3].  Netgate [4] has a nice kit for $300
that includes the motherboard, case, wi-fi card and antennas.

Looking at the devices themselves, the Ubiquiti has Gigabit ports,
while MicroTik doesn't yet have a board with both Gigabit and mini-pci
(for wi-fi).

From the software perspective, MicroTik has their own Linux Distro
(RouterOS) which seems to be quite polished, while Ubiquiti uses
OpenWRT, which I found to be not as stable.

Does anybody has any hands-on experience with either of these two
options and has good or bad experiences?  Any other option that I
should consider given the ~$300 budget?

Thanks,
florin

[1] http://www.soekris.com/shop/
[2] http://routerboard.com/pricelist.php?started_from_home=1
[3] http://www.ubnt.com/rspro
[4] http://www.netgate.com/product_info.php?cPath=27_104&products_id=812

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From admin at lctn.org  Wed Mar  3 11:15:41 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 11:15:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>



Florin Iucha wrote:
> My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
> real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
> drivers.
> 
> The old choice was Soekris [1] but they seem to be longer in the tooth
> and in the price: ~$270 for just the box and the motherboard, with the
> wireless being extra.
> 
> Now, it seems that the top contenders are MicroTik RouterBoard [2] and
> Ubiquiti RouterStationPRO [3].  Netgate [4] has a nice kit for $300
> that includes the motherboard, case, wi-fi card and antennas.
> 
> Looking at the devices themselves, the Ubiquiti has Gigabit ports,
> while MicroTik doesn't yet have a board with both Gigabit and mini-pci
> (for wi-fi).
> 
> From the software perspective, MicroTik has their own Linux Distro
> (RouterOS) which seems to be quite polished, while Ubiquiti uses
> OpenWRT, which I found to be not as stable.
> 
> Does anybody has any hands-on experience with either of these two
> options and has good or bad experiences?  Any other option that I
> should consider given the ~$300 budget?
> 



We use MikroTik-embedded on RouterBoards, and installed on  HDs. Both 
ways work very well. Highly recommended on our side of the world.



From j at packetgod.com  Wed Mar  3 12:33:13 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 12:33:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>

I use the Ubiquiti PicoStation and Bullet APs running DD-WRT (pro) on them
and they are very solid.  Although I tend to use them for evil hacking and
less day to day use.  They are super cheap and even come in the HP version
with 1W of serious brain scrambling power.  Also they are very small and are
powered by POE (the pico comes with an adapter)

Sounds like you actually still need Ethernet ports though so the
routerstation pro is also supported by DD-WRT (Pro) and also powered by POE
and you can choose up to two radios to put in it.  I think I'm going to have
to build one now, sounds pretty fun and dangerous.

Of course openwrt is also supported but I have had stability issues with it
as well although that was eons ago (at least a year!) so it may be resolved
by now.

--j

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:

>
>
> Florin Iucha wrote:
> > My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
> > real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
> > drivers.
> >
> > The old choice was Soekris [1] but they seem to be longer in the tooth
> > and in the price: ~$270 for just the box and the motherboard, with the
> > wireless being extra.
> >
> > Now, it seems that the top contenders are MicroTik RouterBoard [2] and
> > Ubiquiti RouterStationPRO [3].  Netgate [4] has a nice kit for $300
> > that includes the motherboard, case, wi-fi card and antennas.
> >
> > Looking at the devices themselves, the Ubiquiti has Gigabit ports,
> > while MicroTik doesn't yet have a board with both Gigabit and mini-pci
> > (for wi-fi).
> >
> > From the software perspective, MicroTik has their own Linux Distro
> > (RouterOS) which seems to be quite polished, while Ubiquiti uses
> > OpenWRT, which I found to be not as stable.
> >
> > Does anybody has any hands-on experience with either of these two
> > options and has good or bad experiences?  Any other option that I
> > should consider given the ~$300 budget?
> >
>
>
>
> We use MikroTik-embedded on RouterBoards, and installed on  HDs. Both
> ways work very well. Highly recommended on our side of the world.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Wed Mar  3 12:56:44 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 12:56:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>
	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>

Do you have an old computer lying around?  If you want to go the really
cheap route just buy a couple NICs and a small switch then install
Smoothwall on it <http://www.smoothwall.org/>.  I've been using it for
about 4 years now and I haven't been disappointed yet.

-Adam

On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 12:33:13PM -0600, J Cruit wrote:
>    I use the Ubiquiti PicoStation and Bullet APs running DD-WRT (pro) on them
>    and they are very solid.? Although I tend to use them for evil hacking
>    and less day to day use.? They are super cheap and even come in the HP
>    version with 1W of serious brain scrambling power.? Also they are very
>    small and are powered by POE (the pico comes with an adapter)
> 
>    Sounds like you actually still need Ethernet ports though so the
>    routerstation pro is also supported by DD-WRT (Pro) and also powered by
>    POE and you can choose up to two radios to put in it.? I think I'm going
>    to have to build one now, sounds pretty fun and dangerous.
> 
>    Of course openwrt is also supported but I have had stability issues with
>    it as well although that was eons ago (at least a year!) so it may be
>    resolved by now.?
> 
>    --j
> 
>    On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 11:15 AM, Raymond Norton <[1]admin at lctn.org> wrote:
> 
>      Florin Iucha wrote:
>      > My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
>      > real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
>      > drivers.
>      >
>      > The old choice was Soekris [1] but they seem to be longer in the tooth
>      > and in the price: ~$270 for just the box and the motherboard, with the
>      > wireless being extra.
>      >
>      > Now, it seems that the top contenders are MicroTik RouterBoard [2] and
>      > Ubiquiti RouterStationPRO [3]. ?Netgate [4] has a nice kit for $300
>      > that includes the motherboard, case, wi-fi card and antennas.
>      >
>      > Looking at the devices themselves, the Ubiquiti has Gigabit ports,
>      > while MicroTik doesn't yet have a board with both Gigabit and mini-pci
>      > (for wi-fi).
>      >
>      > From the software perspective, MicroTik has their own Linux Distro
>      > (RouterOS) which seems to be quite polished, while Ubiquiti uses
>      > OpenWRT, which I found to be not as stable.
>      >
>      > Does anybody has any hands-on experience with either of these two
>      > options and has good or bad experiences? ?Any other option that I
>      > should consider given the ~$300 budget?
>      >
> 
>      We use MikroTik-embedded on RouterBoards, and installed on ?HDs. Both
>      ways work very well. Highly recommended on our side of the world.
> 
>      _______________________________________________
>      TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>      [2]tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>      [3]http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> References
> 
>    Visible links
>    1. mailto:admin at lctn.org
>    2. mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>    3. http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From florin at iucha.net  Wed Mar  3 13:08:52 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:08:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>
	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>
Message-ID: <20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 12:56:44PM -0600, Adam Morris wrote:
> Do you have an old computer lying around?  If you want to go the really
> cheap route just buy a couple NICs and a small switch then install
> Smoothwall on it <http://www.smoothwall.org/>.  I've been using it for
> about 4 years now and I haven't been disappointed yet.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I want something fanless, fully
controllable through a COM port and less power hungry than a full-blown
PC (I guess I should have specified it in the original e-mail).

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 13:17:36 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:17:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Dave Sherohman wrote:

> The canonical list of arguments against lists setting Reply-To would be 
> Chip Rosenthal's ""Reply-To" Munging Considered Harmful"[1], but that's 
> pretty ancient these days.  Google's first hit on it is a copy dated 
> 2002, but Simon Hill's response, "Reply-To Munging Considered 
> Useful"[2], dates to at least 2000, so it's clearly older than that.

It was revised in 2000, so that's how out of date it is.  But I don't 
think anything has changed since then.  Yes, there are arguments both 
ways, of course, but people here obviously like the Reply-To set to the 
list better than what we've been doing.

This argument...

> (It should use List-Post instead, as defined in RFC2369. 
> Unfortunately, well over a decade later, clients which properly 
> recognize List-Post headers remain thin on the ground.)

...doesn't impress me much because it's saying that we should accept a 
list that doesn't do what we want because our MUAs don't do what we want. 
We can fix the list, but most of us can't fix our MUAs.  Some of us could 
switch to an MUA that would do what we want, but most of us would find 
such a change much more annoying than the current list configuration.


> Put simply, if a message which is intended to be public is sent 
> privately, it causes little to no harm.  As already seen on this thread, 
> it's easy for the recipient to include it in a public response, or the 
> original sender can trivially re-send it to the correct address.  The 
> net result is a minor inconvenience for the sender (who has to send it 
> twice) and possibly a minor annoyance for the private version's 
> recipient (who will receive two copies unless their mail software is 
> smart enough to filter out the duplicate).

How many of one type of error should I prefer to one of the other kind? 
Accidentally not sending to the list is happening a lot.  Accidentally 
sending to the list usually isn't a problem.  When people reply to a TCLUG 
message with something they don't want the list to see, they usually take 
special care not to send to the list.  I know I do.

Keeping things as they are does not prevent people from accidentally 
sending to the list.  It is easy to do that -- just use "reply to all" 
accidentally and you've done it.  You can't protect us from that.

As it is, I cannot reply only to the list.  I'm using Alpine.  My options 
are Reply to All or Reply to Sender.  When there is a Reply-To, I have 
another option, which is to reply only to the Reply-To address.  I like 
having more options.

One problem is that some people set "Reply-To" when they send their 
messages to the list.  I don't like that because I want to reply to the 
list, so it would help me if the list would overwrite their Reply-To with 
the list address.

Mike


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Mar  3 13:32:35 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:32:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>	<20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>
	<20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4B8EB953.6080108@lctn.org>



Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 12:56:44PM -0600, Adam Morris wrote:
>> Do you have an old computer lying around?  If you want to go the really
>> cheap route just buy a couple NICs and a small switch then install
>> Smoothwall on it <http://www.smoothwall.org/>.  I've been using it for
>> about 4 years now and I haven't been disappointed yet.
> 
> Thanks for the suggestion, but I want something fanless, fully
> controllable through a COM port and less power hungry than a full-blown
> PC (I guess I should have specified it in the original e-mail).
> 
> Cheers,
> florin


$75.00 for a routerboard with case and MikroTik OS.

wisp-router.com


From j at packetgod.com  Wed Mar  3 14:32:42 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 14:32:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] best packet sniffer
In-Reply-To: <4B8E89BD.1070508@soul-dev.com>
References: <4B8E6DC0.5020004@lctn.org> <4B8E8067.2030904@soul-dev.com>
	<4B8E8345.7000604@lctn.org> <4B8E89BD.1070508@soul-dev.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003031232l7bff1ab8m7f61e97eb3eb7970@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 10:09 AM, Mr. MailingLists <mailinglists at soul-dev.com
> wrote:

> On 03/03/10 09:41, Raymond Norton wrote:
> >
> > Mr. MailingLists wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/03/10 08:10, Raymond Norton wrote:
> >>
> >>> I need to set up a box at our pop to sniff inbound and outbound
> traffic.
> >>> I want to set it up as a passive device, or connect to a monitoring
> port
> >>> on our switch, so if the box fails it does not kill our traffic. The
> >>> device will need to be able to monitor thousands of connections without
> >>> choking. I am pretty sure I would only turn it on when it seemed there
> >>> was suspicious traffic at one of our member schools. Any
> recommendations
> >>> of a stable solution with a nice interface??
> >>>
> >>> Raymond
> >>>
> >>>
> >> YAY a fun question!!!
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > I used to keep a snort box around for sniffing, but not at this scale.
> > Do you think it would be a good solution for my setup, as long as it
> > meets the hardware specs?
> >
> >
> >
> I absolutely believe so. It was designed to be a IDS for large
> infrastructures and as long as you match the specs, plus maybe 20%
> better in case of bursts (and have scalability options), I know this
> would be a great solution. I wish I was only so lucky to go to a school
> where they actively monitored intrusions, as well as possible botnet,
> malware, p2p activity. Well, maybe not p2p ;-), too many valid reasons
> not to.
>
> There are so many ways to configure SNORT, from packet header
> inspection, to deep scanning packet payloads, to anything in between.
> So, if one configuration does not seem to meet your specs, tune away!
>
> Mr. M
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

I'm going to second the SNORT option, I currently use it to monitor very
large throughput networks and have used it to monitor gigantic networks.
I've also set it up very similar to what I think you are trying to do to
capture selected data from the wire.  I setup a rules file with rules that
match the traffic I'm looking for and it will sit there and log it all.
Basically a sniffer or network recording device with a complex rules
algorithm that could allow me to capture as simple or as complex as I want.
For instance, capture all TCP port 80 or all tcp port 25 with a certain
phrase in the packet or a packet with certain flags set but not others.

Its actually pretty powerful and you can setup a logrotate script to clean
out old logs and either archive or delete them so you can have a constantly
recording system.

--j
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From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 15:22:43 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:22:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003031322t47e18834l3ff1f8450e024fc2@mail.gmail.com>

I'm in favor of changing the default reply-to.  Ultimately, I can live with
it either way.  I can appreciate the arguments made for "correctness" that
cite RFC's.  To me it's an issue of practicality.  Not all mail clients are
created equal, when it comes to correctness and configurability.

-Rob
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From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu  Wed Mar  3 16:35:05 2010
From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:35:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>

On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:17:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>
> How many of one type of error should I prefer to one of the other kind?
> Accidentally not sending to the list is happening a lot.  Accidentally
> sending to the list usually isn't a problem.  When people reply to a TCLUG
> message with something they don't want the list to see, they usually take
> special care not to send to the list.  I know I do.

Yes, accidentally sending to list doesn't happen much now, but it
will likely happen more if this change is made. For this list I
agree that it is unlikely that anything truly nasty will happen
from this accidentally sending to list.  The net result will
likely be lowering the sginal to noise ratio of the list and
scaring a few embarrassed would be list members away. Like I
said in another email, I think that we will get more accidental
replies to the list than we currently get accidental replies not
to the list.

> Keeping things as they are does not prevent people from accidentally
> sending to the list.  It is easy to do that -- just use "reply to all"
> accidentally and you've done it.  You can't protect us from that.

Right. Or if your email program doesn't have a "list-reply"
function, you can use your current "reply to all function". Since
"reply to all" is conceptually close to "list-reply", I don't see
the problem.  Yes, some people might get an ocassional duplicate
message, but that happens under the current system too.  If you
don't like duplicates, you set your filters accordingly.

> As it is, I cannot reply only to the list.  I'm using Alpine.  My options
> are Reply to All or Reply to Sender.  When there is a Reply-To, I have
> another option, which is to reply only to the Reply-To address.  I like
> having more options.
>
> One problem is that some people set "Reply-To" when they send their
> messages to the list.  I don't like that because I want to reply to the
> list, so it would help me if the list would overwrite their Reply-To with
> the list address.

But if the list break the Reply-To header, then you cause
problems for people who have valid reasons for setting the
Reply-To. I still don't get why you don't just default to "Reply
to All" for list if you don't have list-reply. It seems to be
fairly common behavior on the lists that I am subscribed to.


-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List
(TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/
Never laugh at live dragons  |
~



From jolexa at jolexa.net  Wed Mar  3 17:41:59 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 23:41:59 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list]
	=?utf-8?q?Microtik_or_RouterStation_Pro=3F_Or=2E=2E?=
	=?utf-8?q?=2E?=
In-Reply-To: <4B8EB953.6080108@lctn.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>	<20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>
	<20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8EB953.6080108@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <00969c81b21d69263e0b6df909944a11@jolexa.net>


On Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:32:35 -0600, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
> Florin Iucha wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 12:56:44PM -0600, Adam Morris wrote:
>>> Do you have an old computer lying around?  If you want to go the
really
>>> cheap route just buy a couple NICs and a small switch then install
>>> Smoothwall on it <http://www.smoothwall.org/>.  I've been using it for
>>> about 4 years now and I haven't been disappointed yet.
>> 
>> Thanks for the suggestion, but I want something fanless, fully
>> controllable through a COM port and less power hungry than a full-blown
>> PC (I guess I should have specified it in the original e-mail).
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> florin
> 
> 
> $75.00 for a routerboard with case and MikroTik OS.
> 
> wisp-router.com

Raymond, Do you have a link for the specific item you are talking about? I
would like to learn more.

To the OP: no wireless, but I have heard good things about the
OpenRD-Client. http://www.globalscaletechnologies.com/t-openrdcdetails.aspx
No experience with it myself, just throwing it into the mix.

-Jeremy


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Mar  3 18:16:42 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:16:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <00969c81b21d69263e0b6df909944a11@jolexa.net>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>	<20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>
	<20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8EB953.6080108@lctn.org>
	<00969c81b21d69263e0b6df909944a11@jolexa.net>
Message-ID: <4B8EFBEA.5090409@lctn.org>

Raymond, Do you have a link for the specific item you are talking about? I
> would like to learn more.
>   



http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RB750G&eq=&Tp=


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar  3 18:25:48 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:25:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:17:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>>
>> How many of one type of error should I prefer to one of the other kind? 
>> Accidentally not sending to the list is happening a lot.  Accidentally 
>> sending to the list usually isn't a problem.  When people reply to a 
>> TCLUG message with something they don't want the list to see, they 
>> usually take special care not to send to the list.  I know I do.
>
> Yes, accidentally sending to list doesn't happen much now, but it will 
> likely happen more if this change is made.

More than never?  And what are we going to see?  I'm on a bunch of lists 
that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.

Mike


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Wed Mar  3 18:26:11 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 18:26:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100302144223.I26363@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<68dbb6fe1003021132h410a580ap7b6e522e0803f29@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100302144223.I26363@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <201003031826.11870.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> Here's what I'm going to do. I'll give a week for anyone to chime in with a
> solid vote or 3 for the status quo (not just a "I can deal with it, why
> can't you?") __backed up by good reasons__. Absent that, I'll change the
> list behavior. Even with it, I might change it anyway, since the current
> behavior bugs the heck out of me too.

Those who have trouble with the "reply-to" might not get counted :)

I vote for changing it.

On Tuesday 02 March 2010 2:42:23 pm Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> On 03/02 01:32 , John Trammell wrote:
> > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:23 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <
> >
> > chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> > > [snip]
> >
> > I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to be
> >
> > > autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. However,
> > > I think that would be rather irresponsible.
> >
> > Maybe.  Sometimes it's easier to ask forgiveness than get permission. 
> > :-)
>
> I know that. I do want to at least avoid the appearance of being an
> autocrat; however benevolent an autocrat I might be. :)
>
> Here's what I'm going to do. I'll give a week for anyone to chime in with a
> solid vote or 3 for the status quo (not just a "I can deal with it, why
> can't you?") __backed up by good reasons__. Absent that, I'll change the
> list behavior. Even with it, I might change it anyway, since the current
> behavior bugs the heck out of me too.
>
> > > I'd really like to see a webpoll done on this. I think we used to do
> > > such things on the www.tclug.org website, but that site is bit-rotted
> > > so badly it's pathetic. (If anyone has any interest in cleaning it up,
> > > please let me know).
> >
> > I'll give it a whirl.  What needs to be done?
>
> I'll msg you privately. Mostly it just needs someone to take out some MySQL
> code and fix up dead links.




From larrymcmains at comcast.net  Wed Mar  3 19:59:13 2010
From: larrymcmains at comcast.net (Larry McMains)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 19:59:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <4B8DA97A.9050609@ripperd.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>	<68dbb6fe1003021132h410a580ap7b6e522e0803f29@mail.gmail.com>	<20100302144223.I26363@real-time.com>
	<4B8DA97A.9050609@ripperd.com>
Message-ID: <4B8F13F1.7060803@comcast.net>

I vote to change the reply-to to be the list address.



From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Mar  3 20:17:33 2010
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 02:17:33 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
Message-ID: <1702468943-1267669073-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620619424-@bda2586.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>

I vote to leave it. 

Underdogs! Facial Lafleur! Total facial!
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


From jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org  Wed Mar  3 20:29:23 2010
From: jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org (Joseph Key)
Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 20:29:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <aa4b83be94ca46ec09d769801b66551e.squirrel@www.fireopal.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<aa4b83be94ca46ec09d769801b66551e.squirrel@www.fireopal.org>
Message-ID: <4B8F1B03.5040205@tomobiki.dyndns.org>

On 3/2/2010 11:17 AM, Scott Raun wrote:
> On Tue, March 2, 2010 10:04 am, Mike Miller wrote:
>
> Half the time I have a Reply-To-List function available, half the time I
> don't. This is due to restrictions on a corporate firewall - I have to use
> web-mail to read list mail from work, I use mutt at home.
>
> If you're going to tell me 'get a client that had Reply-To-List', then you
> better be able to tell me about one that I can use that has that. Does
> anyone know of a web-mail client that implements Reply-To-List?
>
> Personally, I find setting a Reply-To header to make the default reply go
> to the list to be something that encourages community. I joined to
> interact with many people, I _want_ to interact with many people - why
> make it harder?
>
> For a face-to-face analog - if I'm at a party, the default interaction is
> with anyone within ear-shot at the party. If I want private communication
> with a fellow attendee, I have to make an effort to achieve that privacy.
> I find mailing lists to have an analog to that - most mailing lists are
> set up because a community wants to talk to itself. Why make it harder to
> maintain the sense of community?
>
>    
I second this view. I uses a lot of different email clients and some do 
not have the reply to list function. Also I'm lazy and would rather have 
the mail go to the list when I reply. If I want to send a private 
message then I will do the work of getting the address right.

Joseph Key



From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Mar  4 03:27:27 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 03:27:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGEMLDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 6:26 PM
> To: Jim Crumley
> Cc: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
>
>
> More than never?  And what are we going to see?  I'm on a bunch of lists
> that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.
>
> Mike

Same here.

This is the only list in my current bunch and previous bunches that tries to sell the idea that being on the list is not
first-and-foremost for sharing on the list.

I vote to change the reply-to to be the list address.

Chuck



From j at packetgod.com  Thu Mar  4 08:08:57 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:08:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B8EFBEA.5090409@lctn.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>
	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>
	<20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8EB953.6080108@lctn.org>
	<00969c81b21d69263e0b6df909944a11@jolexa.net>
	<4B8EFBEA.5090409@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003040608u76853471qbb31eed16fd0fb75@mail.gmail.com>

That link says that it has "no mini-pci slots"  so it doesn't look like you
could add wifi to it.  Am I mistaken, or could you do a USB wifi?

On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:

> Raymond, Do you have a link for the specific item you are talking about? I
> > would like to learn more.
> >
>
>
>
> http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RB750G&eq=&Tp=
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From admin at lctn.org  Thu Mar  4 08:36:07 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 08:36:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a1003040608u76853471qbb31eed16fd0fb75@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org>	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com>	<20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>	<20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8EB953.6080108@lctn.org>	<00969c81b21d69263e0b6df909944a11@jolexa.net>	<4B8EFBEA.5090409@lctn.org>
	<38aa5b6a1003040608u76853471qbb31eed16fd0fb75@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B8FC557.2080600@lctn.org>

> That link says that it has "no mini-pci slots"  so it doesn't look like 
> you could add wifi to it.  Am I mistaken, or could you do a USB wifi?
> 

I thought you were just talking about a router. For wi-fi you will 
probably want to go with the RB433, but you will be closer to a $150.00 
for the board, case, and antennas. Our company has many units like this 
in the field, but it may be overkill for a home network.

http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RB433&eq=&Tp=


From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar  4 08:48:33 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:48:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
Message-ID: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>

I'd like to relocate my computers from my office to a room in the basement;
and just run really long keyboard/video/mouse cables to the office. 

This would require a run of about 25 feet tho.

Does anyone have experience with KVM cables (not involving a KVM switch;
just going from monitor to computer) that long? I've heard of people having
problems with pushing the keyboard signal that far; and I've seen RF
interference when crappy equipment is involved.

Any brands that anyone can recommend? 

Newegg lists companies like StarTech and CablesToGo.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812196116
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200137

Anyone have experience with these?

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From justin.vogt at bold.k12.mn.us  Thu Mar  4 08:51:14 2010
From: justin.vogt at bold.k12.mn.us (Justin Vogt)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:51:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>

Why not just use VNC?



On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <
chrome at real-time.com> wrote:

> I'd like to relocate my computers from my office to a room in the basement;
> and just run really long keyboard/video/mouse cables to the office.
>
> This would require a run of about 25 feet tho.
>
> Does anyone have experience with KVM cables (not involving a KVM switch;
> just going from monitor to computer) that long? I've heard of people having
> problems with pushing the keyboard signal that far; and I've seen RF
> interference when crappy equipment is involved.
>
> Any brands that anyone can recommend?
>
> Newegg lists companies like StarTech and CablesToGo.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812196116
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200137
>
> Anyone have experience with these?
>
> --
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Justin Vogt
BOLD Schools
Technology Director
Justin.Vogt at bold.k12.mn.us
(320)523-1031 ext.3156
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From justin.vogt at bold.k12.mn.us  Thu Mar  4 08:46:31 2010
From: justin.vogt at bold.k12.mn.us (Justin Vogt)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 08:46:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B8FC557.2080600@lctn.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8E993D.90501@lctn.org> 
	<38aa5b6a1003031033w115fb5a7r2f0fa839835f6e93@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100303185643.GA30365@weegee.ath.cx>
	<20100303190852.GI2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8EB953.6080108@lctn.org>
	<00969c81b21d69263e0b6df909944a11@jolexa.net> 
	<4B8EFBEA.5090409@lctn.org>
	<38aa5b6a1003040608u76853471qbb31eed16fd0fb75@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4B8FC557.2080600@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <138774fd1003040646n50a9a720tf949005cfcc12f50@mail.gmail.com>

If you really want gig ports there is the RB600 or RB800.  The 800 is
replacing the 600.. You can get a rb600 for 190 then you will need a
wireless card, anteannas, and case.  Will be close to 300

http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RB600A&eq=&Tp=

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:36 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:

> > That link says that it has "no mini-pci slots"  so it doesn't look like
> > you could add wifi to it.  Am I mistaken, or could you do a USB wifi?
> >
>
> I thought you were just talking about a router. For wi-fi you will
> probably want to go with the RB433, but you will be closer to a $150.00
> for the board, case, and antennas. Our company has many units like this
> in the field, but it may be overkill for a home network.
>
> http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=RB433&eq=&Tp=
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Justin Vogt
BOLD Schools
Technology Director
Justin.Vogt at bold.k12.mn.us
(320)523-1031 ext.3156
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From florin at iucha.net  Thu Mar  4 09:03:21 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:03:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20100304150321.GQ2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 08:48:33AM -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> I'd like to relocate my computers from my office to a room in the basement;
> and just run really long keyboard/video/mouse cables to the office. 
> 
> This would require a run of about 25 feet tho.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with KVM cables (not involving a KVM switch;
> just going from monitor to computer) that long? I've heard of people having
> problems with pushing the keyboard signal that far; and I've seen RF
> interference when crappy equipment is involved.
> 
> Any brands that anyone can recommend? 

Carl,

It might be out of your price range, but at work they are using some
KVM-over-IP which goes over Cat-5 and it works wonderfully at great
distances.  The particular vendor we are using is Avocent, but they
were quite expensive ($200 per port or so, IIRC).

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar  4 09:03:26 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:03:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>;
	from justin.vogt@bold.k12.mn.us on Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at
	08:51:14AM -0600
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>

On 03/04 08:51 , Justin Vogt wrote:
> Why not just use VNC?

1. Because that still requires a computer near me, with the attendant noise and
cooling issues. (I'm hoping to put the computers in a cool room in the
basement to reduce my A/C requirements in the summertime).

2. Because it's cheaper to move the computers to another room and buy long
cables, than buy newer, quieter computers.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From andyschmid at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 09:10:12 2010
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:10:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a31003040710n65ee4aaat9955baa02883b9e4@mail.gmail.com>

3.  VNC is utterly slow in comparison to console access

4.  VNC won't work if the system/network is broken


Carl,

I know this is probably overkill and out of the price range, but an IP-KVM
would work perfectly if you can't get long enough cables.

-Andy


On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <
chrome at real-time.com> wrote:

> On 03/04 08:51 , Justin Vogt wrote:
> > Why not just use VNC?
>
> 1. Because that still requires a computer near me, with the attendant noise
> and
> cooling issues. (I'm hoping to put the computers in a cool room in the
> basement to reduce my A/C requirements in the summertime).
>
> 2. Because it's cheaper to move the computers to another room and buy long
> cables, than buy newer, quieter computers.
>
> --
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar  4 09:16:53 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:16:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304150321.GQ2867@iris.iucha.org>;
	from florin@iucha.net on Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 09:03:21AM -0600
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<20100304150321.GQ2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <20100304091653.D18254@real-time.com>

On 03/04 09:03 , Florin Iucha wrote:
> It might be out of your price range, but at work they are using some
> KVM-over-IP which goes over Cat-5 and it works wonderfully at great
> distances.  The particular vendor we are using is Avocent, but they
> were quite expensive ($200 per port or so, IIRC).

I am familiar with KVM-over-Cat5; but I only need to go 25ft, not 125ft.
(Yet).

$200/port is less than I was expecting; tho it may be different if I only
buy one set of ports.

The upside of that is that I could move the computers a really long way
away.

I'll have to look into it again. It's been quite a few years since I looked
at the tech.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Mar  4 09:16:44 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 09:16:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a31003040710n65ee4aaat9955baa02883b9e4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>
	<7b7c42a31003040710n65ee4aaat9955baa02883b9e4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B8FCEDC.1070403@me.com>

If you're looking at only 30 feet (as your links suggested) why not blue 
tooth your KB and Mouse? Then just worry about your long video cable.


Andy Schmid wrote:
> 3.  VNC is utterly slow in comparison to console access
>
> 4.  VNC won't work if the system/network is broken
>
>
> Carl,
>
> I know this is probably overkill and out of the price range, but an 
> IP-KVM would work perfectly if you can't get long enough cables.
>
> -Andy
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 9:03 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom 
> <chrome at real-time.com <mailto:chrome at real-time.com>> wrote:
>
>     On 03/04 08:51 , Justin Vogt wrote:
>     > Why not just use VNC?
>
>     1. Because that still requires a computer near me, with the
>     attendant noise and
>     cooling issues. (I'm hoping to put the computers in a cool room in the
>     basement to reduce my A/C requirements in the summertime).
>
>     2. Because it's cheaper to move the computers to another room and
>     buy long
>     cables, than buy newer, quieter computers.
>
>     --
>     Carl Soderstrom
>     Systems Administrator
>     Real-Time Enterprises
>     www.real-time.com <http://www.real-time.com>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From jolexa at jolexa.net  Thu Mar  4 09:44:32 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 15:44:32 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] =?utf-8?q?really_long_KVM_cables=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <20100304091653.D18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<20100304150321.GQ2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100304091653.D18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <155767f99ce677d777a23364fdaf8cd5@jolexa.net>


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:16:53 -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
<chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> On 03/04 09:03 , Florin Iucha wrote:
>> It might be out of your price range, but at work they are using some
>> KVM-over-IP which goes over Cat-5 and it works wonderfully at great
>> distances.  The particular vendor we are using is Avocent, but they
>> were quite expensive ($200 per port or so, IIRC).
> 
> I am familiar with KVM-over-Cat5; but I only need to go 25ft, not 125ft.
> (Yet).
> 
> $200/port is less than I was expecting; tho it may be different if I
only
> buy one set of ports.
> 
> The upside of that is that I could move the computers a really long way
> away.
> 
> I'll have to look into it again. It's been quite a few years since I
looked
> at the tech.

Maybe you could just worry about the video cable and then use synergy for
the keyboard and mouse? That would require at least one node next to your
monitor though so you could physically attach kb/mouse. eg. sheevaplug @
$99 dollars would be cheaper than IP KVM.

http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/
http://code.google.com/p/synergy-plus/ (fork/re-write, your distro of
choice should have one or both)
http://www.openplug.org/ (sheevaplug)

Not sure if it would work *exactly* in your situation but it would be a
cheaper alternative given that long-enough video cables are available and
not too expensive either.

-Jeremy


From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar  4 09:51:07 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:51:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <4B8FCEDC.1070403@me.com>;
	from ryanjcole@me.com on Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 09:16:44AM -0600
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>
	<7b7c42a31003040710n65ee4aaat9955baa02883b9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B8FCEDC.1070403@me.com>
Message-ID: <20100304095107.E18254@real-time.com>

On 03/04 09:16 , Ryan Coleman wrote:
> If you're looking at only 30 feet (as your links suggested) why not blue 
> tooth your KB and Mouse? Then just worry about your long video cable.

the video cable is likely to be the troublesome bit; and if the video cable
is good enough to go 25' without trouble, hopefully they KB/mouse cables
will be good too.

Besides which, I rather like my existing keyboards & mice. (1986 IBM Type M,
Kinesis Ergo Essential, and some late-90s/early-noughties Logitech
trackballs). Tough to sell me on bluetooth keyboards and mice, since I've
never trusted or liked the ones I've tried.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 09:53:29 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:53:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Justin Vogt wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
>
>> I'd like to relocate my computers from my office to a room in the 
>> basement; and just run really long keyboard/video/mouse cables to the 
>> office.
>>
>> This would require a run of about 25 feet tho.
>>
>> Does anyone have experience with KVM cables (not involving a KVM 
>> switch; just going from monitor to computer) that long? I've heard of 
>> people having problems with pushing the keyboard signal that far; and 
>> I've seen RF interference when crappy equipment is involved.
>
>
> Why not just use VNC?


VNC would require that some other computer is attached to the keyboard, 
mouse and monitor.  Is it 25 feet in a straight line?  There are 
floors/walls between, but maybe something that transmits the keyboard and 
mouse signals will work.  If so, then you'd only need to deal with the 
monitor.

That's an interesting plan.  Are the computers noisy?

Mike


From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu  Thu Mar  4 09:44:36 2010
From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:44:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>

On Wed, March 3, 2010 6:25 pm, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:17:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>> Yes, accidentally sending to list doesn't happen much now, but it will
>> likely happen more if this change is made.
>
> More than never?  And what are we going to see?  I'm on a bunch of lists
> that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.

Yep. Never. Not once.


http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/032799.html
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/031643.html
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2003-March/000368.html

-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List
(TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/
Never laugh at live dragons  |





From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Mar  4 10:04:34 2010
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:04:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304095107.E18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>
	<7b7c42a31003040710n65ee4aaat9955baa02883b9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B8FCEDC.1070403@me.com> <20100304095107.E18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <web-18545588@mailback2.g2host.com>

I have a PC in family room with a 25' video & audio cable 
running to the big screen TV mainly for MythTV and Netflix 
streaming.? It has a standard keyboard and mouse, but I 
can report the 25' video is flawless!


On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 09:51:07 -0600
  Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> On 03/04 09:16 , Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> If you're looking at only 30 feet (as your links 
>>suggested) why not blue 
>> tooth your KB and Mouse? Then just worry about your long 
>>video cable.
> 
> the video cable is likely to be the troublesome bit; and 
>if the video cable
> is good enough to go 25' without trouble, hopefully they 
>KB/mouse cables
> will be good too.
> 
> Besides which, I rather like my existing keyboards & 
>mice. (1986 IBM Type M,
> Kinesis Ergo Essential, and some 
>late-90s/early-noughties Logitech
> trackballs). Tough to sell me on bluetooth keyboards and 
>mice, since I've
> never trusted or liked the ones I've tried.
> 
> -- 
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 



From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar  4 10:05:35 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:05:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 09:53:29AM -0600
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>

On 03/04 09:53 , Mike Miller wrote:
> VNC would require that some other computer is attached to the keyboard, 
> mouse and monitor.  Is it 25 feet in a straight line?  There are 
> floors/walls between, but maybe something that transmits the keyboard and 
> mouse signals will work.  If so, then you'd only need to deal with the 
> monitor.
> 
> That's an interesting plan.  Are the computers noisy?

The 25' is sort of along the floor and then down through the floor. So it's
quite a bit less than that in a straight line; but there's concrete
foundation and other stuff (wiring, piping) that might get in the way of a
signal.

The computers are indeed noisy; and I suspect that a lot of the hearing loss
I've accumulated over the years is due to the constant low-level of fan and
drive noise I'm exposed to. I've actually taken to wearing earmuffs at
times. So I'd really like to make things quieter.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 10:09:52 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:09:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304095107.E18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>
	<7b7c42a31003040710n65ee4aaat9955baa02883b9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B8FCEDC.1070403@me.com> <20100304095107.E18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041008090.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> the video cable is likely to be the troublesome bit; and if the video 
> cable is good enough to go 25' without trouble, hopefully they KB/mouse 
> cables will be good too.

Are you using DVI?  I don't think it will be a problem to go 25'.  I know 
that there are 50' HDMI cables, so 25' of DVI also should work.

Mike


From tpenney at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 10:17:44 2010
From: tpenney at gmail.com (Tom Penney)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:17:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <5c596d0e1003040817j26111f4bifa6a0acb173d5715@mail.gmail.com>

My vote, as a fairly inactive user, is to change to reply-to to the
list address.


-- 
Tom Penney
612-920-3562


From stutterstutt at comcast.net  Thu Mar  4 10:28:13 2010
From: stutterstutt at comcast.net (Jeff Nelson)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:28:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>

Florin Iucha wrote:
> My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
> real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
> drivers.

Define "real".

Don't give up on the Linksys just yet. You can run open source on it 
just fine if you have the right model (DD-Wrt, OpenWRT, others). THe 
price of a new WRT54GL (sold specifically for Linux hacking) is still 
cheaper than some of the options you're considering.

I also recommend the book "Linksys WRT54G: Ultimate Hacking" by Paul 
Asadoorian and Larry Pesce (Syngress Press, ISBN 978-1-59749-166-2). 
It'll give you a lot of ideas and how-to instructions.

-Jeff


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 10:30:57 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:30:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> The computers are indeed noisy; and I suspect that a lot of the hearing 
> loss I've accumulated over the years is due to the constant low-level of 
> fan and drive noise I'm exposed to. I've actually taken to wearing 
> earmuffs at times. So I'd really like to make things quieter.


I worked on a hearing-loss project a couple of years ago and I can tell 
you that a lot of what people believe about loud noises and hearing loss 
just isn't supported by the data.  Anecdote:  My dad was a tail gunner and 
radio operator in the Korean War.  He was exposed to a lot of loud noise 
that he thought damaged his hearing.  Now he is 83 years old and has 
hearing problems.  But my hearing also is declining.  I'm 32 years younger 
than my dad and I did go to some really loud rock concerts, but maybe we 
are just genetically prone to hearing loss.  It's hard to say.  The 
research supports the genetic hypothesis more than the noise hypothesis 
for most cases of age-related hearing loss.

Mike


From aristophrenic at warpmail.net  Thu Mar  4 10:33:11 2010
From: aristophrenic at warpmail.net (Isaac Atilano)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:33:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <1702468943-1267669073-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620619424-@bda2586.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
References: <1702468943-1267669073-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1620619424-@bda2586.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>
Message-ID: <1267720391.29192.1363119637@webmail.messagingengine.com>

I vote no change for my previously stated reasons.


From trnja001 at umn.edu  Thu Mar  4 10:33:10 2010
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:33:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4B8FE0C6.2040800@umn.edu>

On 3/4/2010 9:44 AM, Jim Crumley wrote:
> On Wed, March 3, 2010 6:25 pm, Mike Miller wrote:
>    
>> More than never? And what are we going to see? I'm on a bunch of lists
>> that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.
>>      
> Yep. Never. Not once.
>
>
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/032799.html
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/031643.html
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2003-March/000368.html
>    
Even though I'm one of the examples, I'm still voting for changing the 
behavior. The technical reasons for changing it are more important than 
protecting people from themselves.


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 10:33:50 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:33:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041013520.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:

> On Wed, March 3, 2010 6:25 pm, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:17:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>
>>> Yes, accidentally sending to list doesn't happen much now, but it will 
>>> likely happen more if this change is made.
>>
>> More than never?  And what are we going to see?  I'm on a bunch of 
>> lists that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.
>
> Yep. Never. Not once.
>
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/032799.html
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/031643.html
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2003-March/000368.html

OMG!  The horrors.  It happened twice in 2001 and then again in 2003. 
Let's review these errors starting with this one...

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/032799.html

...this is what was sent to the list by mistake:

"Do you think you could help me out for one minute? I have a small problem 
with smoothwall. My question is this, I cant get out to the net from my 
network. I can go to the smooth wall box and ping the work friom it but 
can't from anyother box. All the boxs on the local entwork can see 
eachother and even see the smooth box, but nothing out. I know very little 
about gateways and nat ..... etc so I have not clue on how to set up port 
forwarding ..ect. I have been reading but not sure how to get it to work 
with dhcp from my isp.

"smoothwall IP's DHCP and internal 192.168.1.1(green). The etc/host file 
has only 2 entries, 1 localhost 127.... 2nd 192.168.1.1 should there not 
be another entry for the DHCP from my ISP? what should it be? It's DHCP so 
I can't hard code it..... also if I do a route -n it only gives me the 
internal network IP 192.168.1.1, should there not be another entry for the 
DHCP? so it knows where to route outgoing request?"


Wow.  That was a huge embarrassment.  Here's example #2:


http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/031643.html

Jay Kline wrote:

> oops...  sorry.  That wasnt ment to go here.  Since this came out... 
> may as well say to everyone that I just got engaged!
>
> On Tuesday 04 September 2001 07:48 pm, you wrote:
>
>> I just wanted to say I love you!  I hope you are having a good evening, 
>> and I hope you are readdy for class tomorrow.  This semester should be 
>> a good one, even though our schedules suck.  If it ever gets rough, 
>> just remember I am here for you.  Always.


Maybe I'm a nut case, but I like seeing a message like that now and then. 
It's fun and it humanizes us.  But I don't know how the Reply-To feature 
caused this error -- was his fiancee also on the list?  One more:


http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2003-March/000368.html

I can't tell what happened there, unless his earlier messages were about 
Gnome.  I think this one might be a case where the messages were intended 
for the list, but they had been stuck in a mail queue and were out of 
date.

Anyway, again, I am not worried about the possibility that someone will 
accidentally send a message to the list that was meant for someone else.

Mike


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Mar  4 10:39:39 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:39:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <4B8FE0C6.2040800@umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<4B8FE0C6.2040800@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4B8FE24B.8060505@me.com>

Seeing as the three examples used are based on what is also more than 
7-years old in tech age...  (ok, 6 years, 51 weeks)

I vote for the change, too.

Elvedin Trnjanin wrote:
> On 3/4/2010 9:44 AM, Jim Crumley wrote:
>   
>> On Wed, March 3, 2010 6:25 pm, Mike Miller wrote:
>>    
>>     
>>> More than never? And what are we going to see? I'm on a bunch of lists
>>> that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.
>>>      
>>>       
>> Yep. Never. Not once.
>>
>>
>> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/032799.html
>> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2001-September/031643.html
>> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2003-March/000368.html
>>    
>>     
> Even though I'm one of the examples, I'm still voting for changing the 
> behavior. The technical reasons for changing it are more important than 
> protecting people from themselves.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 11:22:10 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:22:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003040922w96faf3alfd2df8eaa6a11190@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:28 AM, Jeff Nelson <stutterstutt at comcast.net>wrote:

> Florin Iucha wrote:
> > My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
> > real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
> > drivers.
>
> Define "real".
>
> Don't give up on the Linksys just yet. You can run open source on it
> just fine if you have the right model (DD-Wrt, OpenWRT, others). THe
> price of a new WRT54GL (sold specifically for Linux hacking) is still
> cheaper than some of the options you're considering.
>
>
I can vouch for the DD-WRT distro's effectiveness on the WRT54G.
The Linksys firmware had me wanting to take the WRTT54G ice
fishing so I could show it the bottom of the lake.  DD-WRT has been
rock solid.  With Linksys conceding there's money to be made
just by selling the hardware with full knowledge their firmware is going to
get
blown away (in the GL line)... It's a pretty decent value proposition.

That said, these router board kits look like they could be fun.

-Rob
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From crumley at fields.space.umn.edu  Thu Mar  4 11:02:18 2010
From: crumley at fields.space.umn.edu (Jim Crumley)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:02:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041013520.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041013520.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <33516.204.251.84.218.1267722138.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>

On Thu, March 4, 2010 10:33 am, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
>
>> On Wed, March 3, 2010 6:25 pm, Mike Miller wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:17:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yes, accidentally sending to list doesn't happen much now, but it will
>>>> likely happen more if this change is made.
>>>
>>> More than never?  And what are we going to see?  I'm on a bunch of
>>> lists that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.
>>
>> Yep. Never. Not once.
<snip>
>
> OMG!  The horrors.  It happened twice in 2001 and then gain in 2003.
> Let's review these errors starting with this one...

That's what found in 5 minutes of googling.  You said no one ever sent to
the list by accident.  I am sure that it has happened more recently as
well, and I might have found those cases with better search terms (or a
better memory. I agree that nothing horrifying happened in these cases,
but by changing behavior we make these things problems more likely.

<snip>
> Anyway, again, I am not worried about the possibility that someone will
> accidentally send a message to the list that was meant for someone else.
>

I am not convinced that many people accidentally reply to individuals and
not  to the list, and I don't see the harm if they do.  Then you just
have to resend. But we obviously disagree and are going around in circles.

I see the writing on the wall.

-- 
Jim Crumley                  |Twin Cities Linux Users Group Mailing List
(TCLUG)
Ruthless Debian Zealot       |http://www.mn-linux.org/
Never laugh at live dragons  |





From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 11:43:37 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:43:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003040943h2739dde3n9351d45c6ba238c7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 10:30 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>
> > The computers are indeed noisy; and I suspect that a lot of the hearing
> > loss I've accumulated over the years is due to the constant low-level of
> > fan and drive noise I'm exposed to. I've actually taken to wearing
> > earmuffs at times. So I'd really like to make things quieter.
>
>
> I worked on a hearing-loss project a couple of years ago and I can tell
> you that a lot of what people believe about loud noises and hearing loss
> just isn't supported by the data.  Anecdote:  My dad was a tail gunner and
> radio operator in the Korean War.  He was exposed to a lot of loud noise
> that he thought damaged his hearing.  Now he is 83 years old and has
> hearing problems.  But my hearing also is declining.  I'm 32 years younger
> than my dad and I did go to some really loud rock concerts, but maybe we
> are just genetically prone to hearing loss.  It's hard to say.  The
> research supports the genetic hypothesis more than the noise hypothesis
> for most cases of age-related hearing loss.
>
> Mike


If you worked in a data-center with hundreds or thousands of server and
blade fans howling all day, every day, I could see that kind of noise
contributing to hearing loss.   But the fans in your home computers are
probably not contributing to hearing loss.

I researched this recently, and learned that your ears become fatigued and
suffer hearing damage based on the intensity of the sound.  Very loud music
in headphones can begin to cause problems in 15 minutes or less.  As the
decibels decrease, the safe exposure time gets longer.  I'd be surprised if
the decibels produced by your computer fans are above the threshold for
noise where you'd even have to worry about it - how many machines are we
talking about?  Have you measured the noise levels with a meter?

Hearing loss related to guns is a little different.  My dad hunted most of
his life without hearing protection, and some of his hearing loss can be
contributed to firearms.  It's my understanding that gun-related hearing
loss leads to the characteristic of "holes" in frequencies for hearing...
That said, I avoid live music performances for the sake of my hearing now.
I wear hearing protection around guns as much as possible.

I can also vouch for the Avocent Longview being a decently effective
ip-based KVM solution.  I was down on them for awhile, but that's because
the unit we had was defective.  After an RMA/replacement, the unit has
performed very well.

-Rob
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From florin at iucha.net  Thu Mar  4 11:48:36 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:48:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 10:28:13AM -0600, Jeff Nelson wrote:
> Florin Iucha wrote:
> > My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
> > real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
> > drivers.
> 
> Define "real".

Reliable and working hardware.

My router used to need rebooting every half year or so.  I haven't made
any firmware or configuration changes in a while -- but it's still running
the latest published firmware.  Since two days ago, it needs daily
reboots, sometimes multiple in a row before it behaves nicely with the
other wi-fi devices I own.

> Don't give up on the Linksys just yet. You can run open source on it 
> just fine if you have the right model (DD-Wrt, OpenWRT, others). THe 
> price of a new WRT54GL (sold specifically for Linux hacking) is still 
> cheaper than some of the options you're considering.

I have the right model, but the hardware is dying: I don't believe in
bit-rot and a single reboot should have cleared the flippin' bits that
were touched by gamma rays.

> I also recommend the book "Linksys WRT54G: Ultimate Hacking" by Paul 
> Asadoorian and Larry Pesce (Syngress Press, ISBN 978-1-59749-166-2). 
> It'll give you a lot of ideas and how-to instructions.

Thanks for the reference.
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar  4 12:01:34 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:01:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041008090.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 10:09:52AM -0600
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304090326.B18254@real-time.com>
	<7b7c42a31003040710n65ee4aaat9955baa02883b9e4@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B8FCEDC.1070403@me.com> <20100304095107.E18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041008090.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100304120134.J18254@real-time.com>

On 03/04 10:09 , Mike Miller wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> > the video cable is likely to be the troublesome bit; and if the video 
> > cable is good enough to go 25' without trouble, hopefully they KB/mouse 
> > cables will be good too.
> 
> Are you using DVI?  I don't think it will be a problem to go 25'.  I know 
> that there are 50' HDMI cables, so 25' of DVI also should work.

Nope. not using DVI. I'm too backwards for that. ;)

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Mar  4 12:02:05 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 12:02:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
	<20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4B8FF59D.6080203@me.com>

So... an Apple Airport fits the bill. It's software is free, it's run on 
a flavor/port of Linux...

Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 10:28:13AM -0600, Jeff Nelson wrote:
>   
>> Florin Iucha wrote:
>>     
>>> My Linksys WRT54G is dying on me and I'd like to replace it with a
>>> real router/access point based on Linux and using only free software
>>> drivers.
>>>       
>> Define "real".
>>     
>
> Reliable and working hardware.
>
> My router used to need rebooting every half year or so.  I haven't made
> any firmware or configuration changes in a while -- but it's still running
> the latest published firmware.  Since two days ago, it needs daily
> reboots, sometimes multiple in a row before it behaves nicely with the
> other wi-fi devices I own.
>
>   
>> Don't give up on the Linksys just yet. You can run open source on it 
>> just fine if you have the right model (DD-Wrt, OpenWRT, others). THe 
>> price of a new WRT54GL (sold specifically for Linux hacking) is still 
>> cheaper than some of the options you're considering.
>>     
>
> I have the right model, but the hardware is dying: I don't believe in
> bit-rot and a single reboot should have cleared the flippin' bits that
> were touched by gamma rays.
>
>   
>> I also recommend the book "Linksys WRT54G: Ultimate Hacking" by Paul 
>> Asadoorian and Larry Pesce (Syngress Press, ISBN 978-1-59749-166-2). 
>> It'll give you a lot of ideas and how-to instructions.
>>     
>
> Thanks for the reference.
> florin
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 12:03:15 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:03:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <33516.204.251.84.218.1267722138.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041013520.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<33516.204.251.84.218.1267722138.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041152330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:

> On Thu, March 4, 2010 10:33 am, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, March 3, 2010 6:25 pm, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:17:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, accidentally sending to list doesn't happen much now, but it 
>>>>> will likely happen more if this change is made.
>>>>
>>>> More than never?  And what are we going to see?  I'm on a bunch of 
>>>> lists that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.
>>>
>>> Yep. Never. Not once.
> <snip>
>>
>> OMG!  The horrors.  It happened twice in 2001 and then gain in 2003. 
>> Let's review these errors starting with this one...
>
> That's what found in 5 minutes of googling.  You said no one ever sent 
> to the list by accident.

What I really meant was that I was not noticing any such events.  It's 
hard to remember such non-issues, but you did find one from as recently as 
2003, so let's say I was wrong to conclude that it never happens with the 
current configuration.  But what is happening now is not the issue.  The 
issue is what would happen if a change were to be made in Reply-To.  To 
find out, I think you should look at other lists.  I don't see a problem.

This is a list where nearly all replies are meant for the list.

Besides, if someone were to write, "I hope you're coming to the dog fight. 
We'll have lots of coke and hookers."  He can later say "Sorry about that. 
I should explain lest my meaning be misconstrued:  'Dog Fight' is a new 
WWI video game, 'Coke' is a soft drink and 'Hookers' are a new kind of 
snack food.  I've got to remember to use caps!"  See?  No problem.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 12:05:09 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:05:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
	<20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041204010.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> My router used to need rebooting every half year or so.  I haven't made 
> any firmware or configuration changes in a while -- but it's still 
> running the latest published firmware.  Since two days ago, it needs 
> daily reboots, sometimes multiple in a row before it behaves nicely with 
> the other wi-fi devices I own.


Linksys WRT54G, right?  That happened to me too.  I bought a newer one and 
it worked better, at least for now.  There are many versions of the 
hardware.

Mike


From kris.browne at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 12:48:46 2010
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kris Browne)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:48:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041152330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031255330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<44289.152.65.129.201.1267655705.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003031824150.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<32780.204.251.84.218.1267717476.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041013520.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<33516.204.251.84.218.1267722138.squirrel@ham.space.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041152330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <8255989d1003041048i16a7e088n585cb7932d7303e1@mail.gmail.com>

> Besides, if someone were to write, "I hope you're coming to the dog fight.
> We'll have lots of coke and hookers."  He can later say "Sorry about that.
> I should explain lest my meaning be misconstrued:  'Dog Fight' is a new
> WWI video game, 'Coke' is a soft drink and 'Hookers' are a new kind of
> snack food.  I've got to remember to use caps!"  See?  No problem.

I kinda hope for mis-posts like that, I need to find ways to get out more
often....

And hookers is clearly a reference to the crochet club.

Kris Browne
kris.browne at gmail.com
612-353-6969
612-408-4431
http://www.google.com/profiles/kris.browne

"the least expensive, most bug-free line of code is the one you didn't have
to write." - Steve Jobs


On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:03, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
>
> > On Thu, March 4, 2010 10:33 am, Mike Miller wrote:
> >
> >> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wed, March 3, 2010 6:25 pm, Mike Miller wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Jim Crumley wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 01:17:36PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yes, accidentally sending to list doesn't happen much now, but it
> >>>>> will likely happen more if this change is made.
> >>>>
> >>>> More than never?  And what are we going to see?  I'm on a bunch of
> >>>> lists that do Reply-To munging and we aren't having a problem.
> >>>
> >>> Yep. Never. Not once.
> > <snip>
> >>
> >> OMG!  The horrors.  It happened twice in 2001 and then gain in 2003.
> >> Let's review these errors starting with this one...
> >
> > That's what found in 5 minutes of googling.  You said no one ever sent
> > to the list by accident.
>
> What I really meant was that I was not noticing any such events.  It's
> hard to remember such non-issues, but you did find one from as recently as
> 2003, so let's say I was wrong to conclude that it never happens with the
> current configuration.  But what is happening now is not the issue.  The
> issue is what would happen if a change were to be made in Reply-To.  To
> find out, I think you should look at other lists.  I don't see a problem.
>
> This is a list where nearly all replies are meant for the list.
>
> Besides, if someone were to write, "I hope you're coming to the dog fight.
> We'll have lots of coke and hookers."  He can later say "Sorry about that.
> I should explain lest my meaning be misconstrued:  'Dog Fight' is a new
> WWI video game, 'Coke' is a soft drink and 'Hookers' are a new kind of
> snack food.  I've got to remember to use caps!"  See?  No problem.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From florin at iucha.net  Thu Mar  4 13:14:58 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:14:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B8FF59D.6080203@me.com>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
	<20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8FF59D.6080203@me.com>
Message-ID: <20100304191457.GT2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 12:02:05PM -0600, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> So... an Apple Airport fits the bill. It's software is free, it's run on 
> a flavor/port of Linux...

I'll chain myself to Cisco before buying Apple hardware again.

Look at the feature(s):

   "With AirPort Express connected to your DSL or cable modem, up to 10
   users at a time can surf the web, send email, annihilate the
   competition in multiplayer games, and much more ? wire-free"

   10 users?  How generous.  Or performant.

Plus, it has no built-in gigabit switch.  I'd like to use the router
to separate the mail/web server into a real DMZ, but I still want to
access it a gigabit speed from the wired boxes - some e-mails can be
quite large, and some photos can run into tens of megabytes too.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar  4 13:18:31 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:18:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <cac10ddc1003040943h2739dde3n9351d45c6ba238c7@mail.gmail.com>;
	from nesius@gmail.com on Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 11:43:37AM -0600
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<cac10ddc1003040943h2739dde3n9351d45c6ba238c7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>

On 03/04 11:43 , Robert Nesius wrote:
> If you worked in a data-center with hundreds or thousands of server and
> blade fans howling all day, every day, I could see that kind of noise
> contributing to hearing loss.   But the fans in your home computers are
> probably not contributing to hearing loss.

At times in the past (before I worked for RTE) I've worked in some noisy
rooms. Enough so that I was glad to get out of them and away from the noise.

Right now the noise isn't such that it would really bother you much if you
didn't listen to it 14 hours a day... but there are some times when I'm glad
to put on the earmuffs and enjoy some additional quiet. My home office is
comparatively small, and there's little to absorb the noise, so it seems
louder and more irritating. Moreso than when I had the same computers in a
larger room.

> I researched this recently, and learned that your ears become fatigued and
> suffer hearing damage based on the intensity of the sound.  Very loud music
> in headphones can begin to cause problems in 15 minutes or less.  As the
> decibels decrease, the safe exposure time gets longer.  

Yep. But while >130db is painful and damaging in a short period of time; it
doesn't mean that longer-term exposure isn't damaging as well. I've been
around the noise of fans and drives almost continually for 10+ years. Yes,
much of that has probably been well under 70db; but I don't know if there's
any sort of quantum threshold beneath which there's *no* damage.

Oleg Volk made a really cool graphic about noise levels.
http://olegvolk.net/gallery/technology/misc/noisevolume2.jpg.html

In any case, my empirical results are that there are times at which I really
want to wear earmuffs because the noise levels bother me. That's enough to
make me want to relocate these computers elsewhere.

> I wear hearing protection around guns as much as possible.

Too bad silencers aren't legal in MN. They're legal to own in a lot of other
states; but you pay a $200 federal tax on them (and wait for goofermint
approval) in any case.

> I can also vouch for the Avocent Longview being a decently effective
> ip-based KVM solution.  I was down on them for awhile, but that's because
> the unit we had was defective.  After an RMA/replacement, the unit has
> performed very well.

I'll have to look into that. Thanks!
I'm really hoping that my next monitors will be bigger than 1600x1200; so I
would like a solution that will support that (at least, if I'm to be
investing much money into it).

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Mar  4 13:24:18 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:24:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100304191457.GT2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
	<20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8FF59D.6080203@me.com>
	<20100304191457.GT2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4B9008E2.2020808@me.com>

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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Mar  4 13:26:29 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:26:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100304191457.GT2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
	<20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8FF59D.6080203@me.com>
	<20100304191457.GT2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4B900965.7040503@me.com>

I didn't say which apple product. Go with the Extreme. The express is 
for the cheapest users just needing to put a Printer in a room.

//update: I'll repeat what we all know to be true: You get what you pay 
for in hardware. you want plastic and <$100 you get a product that isn't 
the most reliable. But if you're willing to spend a little more for a 
better built piece of hardware... you'll get a very reliable piece of 
hardware.

Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 12:02:05PM -0600, Ryan Coleman wrote:
>   
>> So... an Apple Airport fits the bill. It's software is free, it's run on 
>> a flavor/port of Linux...
>>     
>
> I'll chain myself to Cisco before buying Apple hardware again.
>
> Look at the feature(s):
>
>    "With AirPort Express connected to your DSL or cable modem, up to 10
>    users at a time can surf the web, send email, annihilate the
>    competition in multiplayer games, and much more ? wire-free"
>
>    10 users?  How generous.  Or performant.
>
> Plus, it has no built-in gigabit switch.  I'd like to use the router
> to separate the mail/web server into a real DMZ, but I still want to
> access it a gigabit speed from the wired boxes - some e-mails can be
> quite large, and some photos can run into tens of megabytes too.
>
> Cheers,
> florin
>
>   
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From justin.vogt at bold.k12.mn.us  Thu Mar  4 13:35:23 2010
From: justin.vogt at bold.k12.mn.us (Justin Vogt)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:35:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B900965.7040503@me.com>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net> 
	<20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8FF59D.6080203@me.com> 
	<20100304191457.GT2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B900965.7040503@me.com>
Message-ID: <138774fd1003041135t70da5c88l1ecf68b509f9442b@mail.gmail.com>

I am using a setup exactly like this in my home.  I have a RB750G that I
have my internet connection connected to and do my firewall/routing and
anything else I want to play around with on the RB platform, then I connect
my Airport Extreme in bridge mode for my wireless and extra gig ports.   I
got the extreme for the timecapsule option for my macbooks.  Works great!

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> I didn't say which apple product. Go with the Extreme. The express is
> for the cheapest users just needing to put a Printer in a room.
>
> //update: I'll repeat what we all know to be true: You get what you pay
> for in hardware. you want plastic and <$100 you get a product that isn't
> the most reliable. But if you're willing to spend a little more for a
> better built piece of hardware... you'll get a very reliable piece of
> hardware.
>
> Florin Iucha wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 12:02:05PM -0600, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> >
> >> So... an Apple Airport fits the bill. It's software is free, it's run on
> >> a flavor/port of Linux...
> >>
> >
> > I'll chain myself to Cisco before buying Apple hardware again.
> >
> > Look at the feature(s):
> >
> >    "With AirPort Express connected to your DSL or cable modem, up to 10
> >    users at a time can surf the web, send email, annihilate the
> >    competition in multiplayer games, and much more ? wire-free"
> >
> >    10 users?  How generous.  Or performant.
> >
> > Plus, it has no built-in gigabit switch.  I'd like to use the router
> > to separate the mail/web server into a real DMZ, but I still want to
> > access it a gigabit speed from the wired boxes - some e-mails can be
> > quite large, and some photos can run into tens of megabytes too.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > florin
> >
> >
>  >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Justin Vogt
BOLD Schools
Technology Director
Justin.Vogt at bold.k12.mn.us
(320)523-1031 ext.3156
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 13:39:06 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:39:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<cac10ddc1003040943h2739dde3n9351d45c6ba238c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <cac45c241003041139h4275da0epf5f5dfc52c8b49ff@mail.gmail.com>

We used to run a KVM from our server rack to a desk on the other side
of the room via a 25' VGA and PS/2 cables with no issues, keep in mind
this was only going to a bunch of servers so resolution was limited to
1024x768. You might see some degradation with higher resolutions if
you're using VGA. For video signal you may get better results with
DVI. (See below)

USB cables are also limited in length. USB 1.x is limited to 3 meters
between hubs, and 2.0 is limited to 5 meters between hubs. Both permit
a maximum of 5 hubs connected in series.

Here's what Wikipedia has to say about DVI and cable length:
The maximum length of DVI cables is not included in the specification
since it is dependent on bandwidth requirements (the resolution of the
image being transmitted). In general, cable lengths up to 4.5 m (15
ft) will work for displays at resolutions of 1920 x 1200. This
resolution will work even up to 10 m (33 ft) if a special cable is
used. Cable lengths up to 15 m (50 ft) can be used with displays at
resolutions up to 1280 x 1024. For longer distances, the use of a DVI
booster is recommended to mitigate signal degradation. DVI boosters
may or may not use an external power supply.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Mar  4 13:42:58 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:42:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <4B900965.7040503@me.com>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net>
	<20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B8FF59D.6080203@me.com>
	<20100304191457.GT2867@iris.iucha.org> <4B900965.7040503@me.com>
Message-ID: <20100304194258.GU2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 01:26:29PM -0600, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> I didn't say which apple product. Go with the Extreme. The express is 
> for the cheapest users just needing to put a Printer in a room.
> 
> //update: I'll repeat what we all know to be true: You get what you pay 
> for in hardware. you want plastic and <$100 you get a product that isn't 
> the most reliable. But if you're willing to spend a little more for a 
> better built piece of hardware... you'll get a very reliable piece of 
> hardware.

My horrible Apple experiences were with the Dual 2.5 GHz PowerMac.

**

The LinkSys was reliable until Tuesday.

**

In my original e-mail I was exploring hardware options that were a tad
over $100 of plastic.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From bgilbertson at rrt.net  Thu Mar  4 14:54:16 2010
From: bgilbertson at rrt.net (bgilbertson at rrt.net)
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:54:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
Message-ID: <4b901df8.d7.5a7e.1873392532@rrt.net>

Sorry,  meant to send to list.

----- Original Message Follows -----
From: bgilbertson at rrt.net
To: Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <chrome at real-time.com>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:43:46 -0600

> Carl,
> 
> I have seen converters (baluns?) to passively convert
> signals to the twisted pairs in Cat5.
> Some examples:
> http://www.mcmelectronics.com/promo/promo21.aspx
> 
> No experience with them though.
> 
> Bob



From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Thu Mar  4 15:40:53 2010
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:40:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041204010.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20100303170554.GG2867@iris.iucha.org><4B8FDF9D.6030304@comcast.net><20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041204010.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604E9DF90@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>


>> My router used to need rebooting every half year or so.  I haven't
made 
>> any firmware or configuration changes in a while -- but it's still 
>> running the latest published firmware.  Since two days ago, it needs 
>> daily reboots, sometimes multiple in a row before it behaves nicely
with 
>> the other wi-fi devices I own.


>Linksys WRT54G, right?  That happened to me too.  I bought a newer one
and 
>it worked better, at least for now.  


Me too.  I've had 2 Linksys WRT54G units fail like that as well as an
earlier a/b unit.  
Each worked fine during a year or two of continuous service.  Rebooting
fixes the problem temporarily.  

I recently picked up a Tenda W311R (N) on sale at Microcenter.  Only 1
antenna, but the Linksys N routers don't have *any* external antennas
(why they did they do that?).  Tenda cannot "lock out my kid's ip/mac
automatically during specific hours,"  but that never worked well on the
Linksys.  Both can be configured with any web browser, but the Tenda
label clearly states the default ip address should you need to hit the
reset button (nice touch).  Otherwise, features are similar - including
port forwarding for my Linux server.

I expect all consumer-grade routers (without fans) may have similarly
short lifetimes.  I keep a spare on hand.






From danyberg at gmail.com  Thu Mar  4 17:29:51 2010
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:29:51 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
Message-ID: <5daafeb11003041529u11cf811btfc538d8326759f2f@mail.gmail.com>

It doesn't matter to me as Gmail already replies to the list.


-- 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem;
government is the problem."  - Ronald Reagan

<><
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From bjm at dashaduck.net  Thu Mar  4 17:36:01 2010
From: bjm at dashaduck.net (Bob Morrison)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 17:36:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] (no subject)
Message-ID: <8DC5E11175303949B6FF82BF6D96526B01B6AC20CF73@gopher.buckwu.local>

unsubscribe
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From adam at whee.org  Thu Mar  4 22:43:48 2010
From: adam at whee.org (Adam Maloney)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 22:43:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<cac10ddc1003040943h2739dde3n9351d45c6ba238c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003042211020.94085@callisto.justinm.net>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> Right now the noise isn't such that it would really bother you much if you
> didn't listen to it 14 hours a day... but there are some times when I'm glad
> to put on the earmuffs and enjoy some additional quiet. My home office is
> comparatively small, and there's little to absorb the noise, so it seems
> louder and more irritating. Moreso than when I had the same computers in a
> larger room.

Earmuffs?

(Disclaimer: I've been knowing Carl since he was knee-high to a duck, so I 
claim the exclusive right to pick on him a little)

Dude, just order the replacement Sun E250 Fan Assembly and get rid of the 
failing ball-bearing noise.  Cheaper than an IP KVM.  p/n 540-3274

I'm a little concerned about your hearing because I'm not far behind you 
on age and we've been exposed to roughly the same environmental factors 
over the years.

Environmental or Age test:

Do you eat dinner at 5pm?

Do you drive a Buick?  I SAID, "DO YOU DRIVE A BUICK?"

Does your E250 run 5.4 or 5.6?  (I hereby invoke the suckage equivalence 
rule of odd-numbered SunOS and odd-numbered Star Trek movies)

Do you have a strong opinion on healthcare?

Do you have a strong opinion on the reply-to settings of this list?

Is the Tony Yarusso on this list the Tony Yarusso I went hiking on Isle 
Royal with?


From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Mar  5 01:02:32 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 01:02:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro?  Or...
In-Reply-To: <20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGENCDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
>
> >
> > Define "real".
>
> Reliable and working hardware.
>
> My router used to need rebooting every half year or so.  I haven't made
> any firmware or configuration changes in a while -- but it's still running
> the latest published firmware.  Since two days ago, it needs daily
> reboots, sometimes multiple in a row before it behaves nicely with the
> other wi-fi devices I own.
>
> I have the right model, but the hardware is dying: I don't believe in
> bit-rot and a single reboot should have cleared the flippin' bits that
> were touched by gamma rays.
>

I have had other things in the house begin dying and cause transient problems.  A place I rented had aluminum main wiring, and those
power contacts had corroded and needed serious re-tightening to stop some flash and flicker issues.  New-fangled "crinp-on" wall
outlets and such (ie, strip a solid wire end, poke it in the back of the receptacle, and no more) have wimpy contacts which can get
"arcy" with age, exercise, and high demand currents (due to copper oxide, etc).  Same for some breakers, wall switches, and GFI
units.  The old screw-it-down type are MUCH more reliable.

Just some thoughts: it might not be the WRT54G itself that is the real culprit.


Chuck



From j at packetgod.com  Fri Mar  5 11:06:09 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:06:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microtik or RouterStation Pro? Or...
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGENCDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <20100304174835.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLGENCDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003050906x7b490c54pdc45d4ab16e7cbe4@mail.gmail.com>

As long are we are talking Microtik, this is what I'm thinking of getting
for playing around with:

http://www.wlanparts.com/product/ZZ-RB411-ROO/

Its a combo deal for 115$ that includes:

15dbi 2.4GHz Rootenna
Mikrotik RB411
POE Power Supply and Injector
RF Cable
3M Adhisive PCB Standoffs
R52 Mini-PCI Card
RJ-45 Waterproof Pass-Through

And all fits in the single waterproof antenna enclosure.  Pretty cool if you
ask me.



On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Florin Iucha
> >
> > >
> > > Define "real".
> >
> > Reliable and working hardware.
> >
> > My router used to need rebooting every half year or so.  I haven't made
> > any firmware or configuration changes in a while -- but it's still
> running
> > the latest published firmware.  Since two days ago, it needs daily
> > reboots, sometimes multiple in a row before it behaves nicely with the
> > other wi-fi devices I own.
> >
> > I have the right model, but the hardware is dying: I don't believe in
> > bit-rot and a single reboot should have cleared the flippin' bits that
> > were touched by gamma rays.
> >
>
> I have had other things in the house begin dying and cause transient
> problems.  A place I rented had aluminum main wiring, and those
> power contacts had corroded and needed serious re-tightening to stop some
> flash and flicker issues.  New-fangled "crinp-on" wall
> outlets and such (ie, strip a solid wire end, poke it in the back of the
> receptacle, and no more) have wimpy contacts which can get
> "arcy" with age, exercise, and high demand currents (due to copper oxide,
> etc).  Same for some breakers, wall switches, and GFI
> units.  The old screw-it-down type are MUCH more reliable.
>
> Just some thoughts: it might not be the WRT54G itself that is the real
> culprit.
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From admin at lctn.org  Fri Mar  5 11:22:21 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 11:22:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] QOS
Message-ID: <4B913DCD.9060506@lctn.org>

Are there any tools out there that can be configured for QOS of video 
streaming when it comes in on port 80? I want to give true HTTP and 
HTTPS traffic priority over video streaming.



Raymond


From erikerik at gmail.com  Fri Mar  5 11:53:07 2010
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 11:53:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] QOS
In-Reply-To: <4B913DCD.9060506@lctn.org>
References: <4B913DCD.9060506@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <fc40260f1003050953id76705bp2132518d5d3e341d@mail.gmail.com>

To do this, you'll need something that's capable of doing Deep Packet
Inspection.

I've never had a need to do this and as such, don't have any
experience implementing this solution, but a cursory google search
turned up this iptables module:

http://l7-filter.sourceforge.net/

Perhaps that may fit the bill?

-Erik

On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
> Are there any tools out there that can be configured for QOS of video
> streaming when it comes in on port 80? I want to give true HTTP and
> HTTPS traffic priority over video streaming.
>
>
>
> Raymond
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From admin at lctn.org  Fri Mar  5 13:11:40 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 13:11:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] QOS
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f1003050953id76705bp2132518d5d3e341d@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4B913DCD.9060506@lctn.org>
	<fc40260f1003050953id76705bp2132518d5d3e341d@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B91576C.3040108@lctn.org>

Erik Anderson wrote:
> To do this, you'll need something that's capable of doing Deep Packet
> Inspection.

Thanks.. That at least points me in the right direction. That project is 
all but dead, but I will see what else I can find.


From austad at signal15.com  Fri Mar  5 15:39:25 2010
From: austad at signal15.com (Jay Austad)
Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 15:39:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] QOS
In-Reply-To: <4B91576C.3040108@lctn.org>
References: <4B913DCD.9060506@lctn.org>
	<fc40260f1003050953id76705bp2132518d5d3e341d@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B91576C.3040108@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <C2650EC8-6175-4ACA-B5F1-9B6A92A59F69@signal15.com>

Squid can do bandwidth limiting for URL's matching certain patterns.  Put in something like *.flv for the match string.

--
jay austad  |  612.423.1433  |  austad at signal15.com




On Mar 5, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Raymond Norton wrote:

> Erik Anderson wrote:
>> To do this, you'll need something that's capable of doing Deep Packet
>> Inspection.
> 
> Thanks.. That at least points me in the right direction. That project is 
> all but dead, but I will see what else I can find.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From blawrence at qwest.net  Sat Mar  6 16:54:16 2010
From: blawrence at qwest.net (Brian Lawrence)
Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 16:54:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] 4TB NetApp SAN available
Message-ID: <E41D97385B544CC18BFA922C72D3BDE9@dcm.int>

All,

I have a 4TB NetApp FC SAN that was recently taken out of production. The
hardware list is below and all of the power cables, fiber cables, and rack
shelves for mounting are included. As far as I know everything is in working
condition and was under maintenance contract until it was decommissioned.

(1) - NetApp F840 Filer
(3) - NetApp DS14 Disk Shelf
(1) - NetApp DS14 Mk2 Disk Shelf
(56) - NetApp 72GB 10K LP FC-AL Drives

Please e-mail me if you are interested.

Brian Lawrence
blawrence at qwest.net




From johntrammell at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 08:12:43 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:12:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG site source on GitHub
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe1003070612x456ca61cy235993be43e73d89@mail.gmail.com>

Hello all:

I've put the TCLUG website source code on GitHub at
http://github.com/trammell/tclug

After decrufting, it's


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 08:15:15 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 08:15:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG site source on GitHub
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe1003070612x456ca61cy235993be43e73d89@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003070612x456ca61cy235993be43e73d89@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe1003070615o19cc4e1duf14a706e003d1d3c@mail.gmail.com>

Arrgh.  Let's try that again.

After decrufting, it's about 3MB (down from >130MB).  When it's in a
usable state, we can drop it into place on tclug.org, then talk about
next steps.

J

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 8:12 AM, John Trammell <johntrammell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello all:
>
> I've put the TCLUG website source code on GitHub at
> http://github.com/trammell/tclug
>
> After decrufting, it's
>


From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 08:37:58 2010
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 08:37:58 +1800
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG site source on GitHub
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe1003070615o19cc4e1duf14a706e003d1d3c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003070612x456ca61cy235993be43e73d89@mail.gmail.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003070615o19cc4e1duf14a706e003d1d3c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <81675d141003070637w3bbc48c9k6a07aa6668f9d8ab@mail.gmail.com>

Hello John,

Have you noticed that the member section doesn't work, it hasn't
worked for sometime now.

Thanks

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:15 AM, John Trammell <johntrammell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Arrgh. ?Let's try that again.
>
> After decrufting, it's about 3MB (down from >130MB). ?When it's in a
> usable state, we can drop it into place on tclug.org, then talk about
> next steps.
>
> J
>
> On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 8:12 AM, John Trammell <johntrammell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello all:
>>
>> I've put the TCLUG website source code on GitHub at
>> http://github.com/trammell/tclug
>>
>> After decrufting, it's
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Sun Mar  7 10:21:59 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 10:21:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] TCLUG site source on GitHub
In-Reply-To: <81675d141003070637w3bbc48c9k6a07aa6668f9d8ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003070612x456ca61cy235993be43e73d89@mail.gmail.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003070615o19cc4e1duf14a706e003d1d3c@mail.gmail.com>
	<81675d141003070637w3bbc48c9k6a07aa6668f9d8ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe1003070821w22156928s5e7afe619c8b7ea5@mail.gmail.com>

Indeed, something Carl pointed out to me.  Apparently there used to be
a backend MySQL database that went away?

Some stray thoughts:
0. Now *anyone* can download the source code to the member section and
improve it.
1. Most of this site hasn't been touched for almost a decade.
2. How much time do we (I?) want to spend resurrecting this dinosaur?
3. Replacing MySQL with SQLite seems to be an obvious improvement,
assuming that (a) we can recover the old data, and (b) the TCLUG build
supports it.

J

On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 8:37 AM, James <jucziz6 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello John,
>
> Have you noticed that the member section doesn't work, it hasn't
> worked for sometime now.
>
> Thanks


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 00:21:11 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 00:21:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <5daafeb11003041529u11cf811btfc538d8326759f2f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5daafeb11003041529u11cf811btfc538d8326759f2f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041917540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, swede wrote:

> It doesn't matter to me as Gmail already replies to the list.


How so?  My experience is like that of others on this list who use Gmail. 
It does "Reply," which goes to the sender only, and "Reply to All" which 
goes to every recipient, including the list.  The desired behavior is to 
have an option for "Reply to List" (exclusively to the list) but that does 
not exist in Gmail.

By the way, in case anyone is interested, I encouraged the Alpine 
developers to get Alpine to do a little more with List-Post than it 
currently does.  See below.

Mike

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 13:05:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Miller
To: Alpine Info List
Subject: using "List-Post"

See the message below, shortened slightly to focus on the part of 
interest.  My question is about "List-Post, defined in RFC2369."  Does 
Alpine recognize List-Post headers?  I'm thinking it doesn't recognize 
them and can't be configured to do so, but I'm not sure.

Mike


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 03:24:01 -0600
From: Dave Sherohman
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list

On Tue, Mar 02, 2010 at 01:03:32PM -0600, Yaron wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>
>> I also have root access to the mailing list server, so if I wanted to 
>> be autocratic about it I could just make the change unilaterally. 
>> However, I think that would be rather irresponsible.
>
> Well, so far we've got quite a few people saying they'd like the change, 
> a couple of people saying they don't need the change, and zero people 
> saying they're against it.

I've been holding my tongue thus far, as I'm no longer local to the LUG, 
but, since you've said that there's nobody against it...  I'm against it.

The canonical list of arguments against lists setting Reply-To would be 
Chip Rosenthal's ""Reply-To" Munging Considered Harmful"[1], but that's 
pretty ancient these days.  Google's first hit on it is a copy dated 2002, 
but Simon Hill's response, "Reply-To Munging Considered Useful"[2], dates 
to at least 2000, so it's clearly older than that.

At some later point, Neale Pickett published ""Reply-To" Munging Still 
Considered Harmful. Really."[3], in which he points out that, per RFC2822, 
Reply-To is specifically to be used to indicate where the message's author 
wants replies directed.  He then goes on to argue that, since the list 
management software is not the author of the message, it is a direct 
violation of the RFC for list software to set Reply-To.  (It should use 
List-Post instead, as defined in RFC2369.  Unfortunately, well over a 
decade later, clients which properly recognize List-Post headers remain 
thin on the ground.)


[1] http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply-to-harmful.html
[2] http://www.metasystema.net/essays/reply-to.mhtml
[3] http://woozle.org/~neale/papers/reply-to-still-harmful.html


--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:04:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Miller
To: Alpine Info List
Subject: Re: [Alpine-info] using "List-Post"

On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Geoff Shang wrote:

> On Wed, 3 Mar 2010, Eduardo Chappa wrote:
>
>> Please notice that this header is informational. There is no reason why 
>> any client should do anything with this information, except offer the 
>> user the information and give a link to the user to use that 
>> information. It really has nothing to do with reply-to.
>
> Maybe not, though would it not be reasonable to offer a "list" option in 
> the reply screen when replying to a message with such a header anyway?


Exactly.  If I hit "reply", and there is no "Reply-To," this is what 
happens:

     Reply to all recipients? (Y/N/Cancel)
        If no -- it replies only to sender.
        If yes -- it replies to all recipients.

"Reply to list" is not an option.  When Reply-To is present, and it has 
the address of the list, this is what happens:

     Use "Reply-To:" address instead of "From:" address? (Y/N/Cancel)
        If yes -- it repllies exclusively to the list.
        If no -- it reverts to
           Reply to all recipients? (Y/N/Cancel)
              If no -- it replies only to sender.
              If yes -- it replies to all recipients.

This means that Alpine provides better functionality for lists when the 
"Reply-To: <list address>" is present in the header.  For lists that don't 
do Reply-To munging, it would be great if Alpine saw "List-Post" in the 
header and did this (same as above except for first line):

     Reply to list address instead of "From:" address? (Y/N/Cancel)
        If yes -- it repllies exclusively to the list.
        If no -- it reverts to
           Reply to all recipients? (Y/N/Cancel)
              If no -- it replies only to sender.
              If yes -- it replies to all recipients.

Wouldn't that be great?  Seriously, I think that is exactly what we need. 
It mustn't be hard to program because all the code is in there, but it 
needs to be shuffled around the right way.

Mike


From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Mar  8 07:22:02 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 07:22:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1003042211020.94085@callisto.justinm.net>;
	from adam@whee.org on Thu, Mar 04, 2010 at 10:43:48PM -0600
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<cac10ddc1003040943h2739dde3n9351d45c6ba238c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.BSF.2.00.1003042211020.94085@callisto.justinm.net>
Message-ID: <20100308072202.Q18254@real-time.com>

On 03/04 10:43 , Adam Maloney wrote:
> Dude, just order the replacement Sun E250 Fan Assembly and get rid of the 
> failing ball-bearing noise.  Cheaper than an IP KVM.  p/n 540-3274

I haven't owned a Sun for years. Here's the last one I owned.
http://www.redchrome.org/shooting_computers/sparc10.html

> Environmental or Age test:
> Do you eat dinner at 5pm?

No, sometime between 3pm and 8pm depending on what I've eaten previously
that day, who's cooking, and what day of the week it is.

> Do you drive a Buick?  I SAID, "DO YOU DRIVE A BUICK?"

Nope. Mercury Grand Marquis. (I remember you used to drive a similar road
boat. Didn't you have a Crown Vic that inspired me to do similar?)

> Does your E250 run 5.4 or 5.6?  (I hereby invoke the suckage equivalence 
> rule of odd-numbered SunOS and odd-numbered Star Trek movies)

The only Sun machines I've had I think I put OpenBSD on.

> Do you have a strong opinion on healthcare?

Short answer: Yes.
Long answer: I'm a voluntaryist/anarcho-capitalist so I believe it's wrong
to steal money from some people to pay for other people's mistakes and bad
ideas. Government already pays for >60% of the healthcare in this country
and that's one reason it's so screwed up.

> Do you have a strong opinion on the reply-to settings of this list?

Yeah, it bugs me that replies don't go to the list. 

> Is the Tony Yarusso on this list the Tony Yarusso I went hiking on Isle 
> Royal with?

You'll have to ask him directly. :)

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From admin at lctn.org  Mon Mar  8 14:43:33 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 14:43:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Need help with layer7 signatures
Message-ID: <4B956175.3060201@lctn.org>

A response on my last post pointed me in the right direction for the 
type of packet inspection I need  (layer7).

I found that the Routerboard OS has layer7 packet inspection built in, 
and all that is required is to add the appropriate signature and assign 
QOS rules to it. I can see the counters ticking away with other 
signatures (not ports) such as telnet, and dns, but the signatures I 
found for Quick Time and Flash are not working.

Here is what I have? Anyone know what I need to change?

Flash: [FC]WS[\x01-\x09]|FLV\x01\x05\x09

Quick Time: user-agent: quicktime 
\(qtver=[0-9].[0-9].[0-9];os=[\x09-\x0d -~]+\)\x0d\x0a


Raymond


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Mar  8 15:16:24 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, Linux user)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 15:16:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
Message-ID: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

I'm not in the market to rent a place in the Twin Cities right now, but I expect to be looking sometime in the coming months.  I currently live in Dassel, which is about 60 miles west of Minneapolis.

I am in the job search process, so I don't know where I'll be working.  The area I would like to live is inside the Interstate 94/494/694 Beltway and west of Interstate 35E.

What areas are decent, yet reasonably priced?  More importantly, what are the neighboorhoods to avoid?

-- 
Jason Hsu, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From admin at lctn.org  Mon Mar  8 15:37:42 2010
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:37:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org>



Jason Hsu, Linux user wrote:
> I'm not in the market to rent a place in the Twin Cities right now, but I expect to be looking sometime in the coming months.  I currently live in Dassel, which is about 60 miles west of Minneapolis.
> 
> I am in the job search process, so I don't know where I'll be working.  The area I would like to live is inside the Interstate 94/494/694 Beltway and west of Interstate 35E.
> 
> What areas are decent, yet reasonably priced?  More importantly, what are the neighboorhoods to avoid?
> 


After moving from Dassel, all neighborhoods will seem safe :)



From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Mar  8 15:55:10 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 15:55:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>

I'm bailing out of Uptown for the first time in ... forever. $900.mo for 
my cramped 2BR is not ideal anymore. Woodbury has some nice places with 
low crime. One of those is where I'm going, moving in with the gf and 
sharing the $640.mo rent.

Raymond Norton wrote:
> Jason Hsu, Linux user wrote:
>   
>> I'm not in the market to rent a place in the Twin Cities right now, but I expect to be looking sometime in the coming months.  I currently live in Dassel, which is about 60 miles west of Minneapolis.
>>
>> I am in the job search process, so I don't know where I'll be working.  The area I would like to live is inside the Interstate 94/494/694 Beltway and west of Interstate 35E.
>>
>> What areas are decent, yet reasonably priced?  More importantly, what are the neighboorhoods to avoid?
>>
>>     
>
>
> After moving from Dassel, all neighborhoods will seem safe :)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From adam at askewview.net  Mon Mar  8 16:26:00 2010
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:26:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
Message-ID: <56618.98.240.165.145.1268087160.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>

Jason,

I've lived in Plymouth and Golden Valley now and have been very happy with
both locations.

--Adam

> I'm not in the market to rent a place in the Twin Cities right now, but I
> expect to be looking sometime in the coming months.  I currently live in
> Dassel, which is about 60 miles west of Minneapolis.
>
> I am in the job search process, so I don't know where I'll be working.
> The area I would like to live is inside the Interstate 94/494/694 Beltway
> and west of Interstate 35E.
>
> What areas are decent, yet reasonably priced?  More importantly, what are
> the neighboorhoods to avoid?
>
> --
> Jason Hsu, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>




From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 16:17:24 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:17:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org> <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> I'm bailing out of Uptown for the first time in ... forever. $900.mo for 
> my cramped 2BR is not ideal anymore. Woodbury has some nice places with 
> low crime. One of those is where I'm going, moving in with the gf and 
> sharing the $640.mo rent.


And there's this:

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/11/1117_best_places_to_raise_kids/24.htm

The photo seems to suggest that there aren't any white kids living there, 
which is hard for me to believe.

Mike


From rbrown at rawmindz.com  Mon Mar  8 16:44:54 2010
From: rbrown at rawmindz.com (Robert Brown)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 16:44:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org> <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>

But you will get the impression that these displaced people are
superimposed atop a landscape depicting somewhere wholly too urban and
shiny to be really be surrounded by parks.  (In fact, the picture for
Woodbury is actually a view of downtown Minneapolis as seen from the
river next to the Stone Arch Bridge.)

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:
>
>> I'm bailing out of Uptown for the first time in ... forever. $900.mo for
>> my cramped 2BR is not ideal anymore. Woodbury has some nice places with
>> low crime. One of those is where I'm going, moving in with the gf and
>> sharing the $640.mo rent.
>
>
> And there's this:
>
> http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/11/1117_best_places_to_raise_kids/24.htm
>
> The photo seems to suggest that there aren't any white kids living there,
> which is hard for me to believe.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From stutterstutt at comcast.net  Mon Mar  8 17:01:04 2010
From: stutterstutt at comcast.net (Jeff Nelson)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:01:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <56618.98.240.165.145.1268087160.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
References: <56618.98.240.165.145.1268087160.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
Message-ID: <4B9581B0.2050001@comcast.net>

Jason wants to know where to live. His parameters are west of 35E and 
within the 494/694 beltway.

Adam wrote:
> I've lived in Plymouth and Golden Valley now and have been very happy with
> both locations.

New Hope and Crystal are neighbors of GV and Plymouth and are good 
choices too.

Where I live is a function of what I can afford and what's important to 
me. Your income and your values are different from mine, so it's hard me 
to tell you where you should live. Also, the type of housing makes a 
difference, even within the same city / neighborhood.

I would make a list of things that are desired and things to be avoided. 
Tell us what's on those lists and we can make specific suggestions based 
on our experience.

Such a list might include the following. What setting: urban or suburb? 
What housing choice: house, condo, apartment? Roommate: yes/no? Relative 
access (how easy to get to/from) church / library / work / grocery store 
/ coffee / parks / trails / mall / hospital / ... ?

-Jeff


From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Mar  8 16:56:53 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 16:56:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org> <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B9580B5.9030804@me.com>

It makes you wonder what they have for the other 49 states.

Robert Brown wrote:
> But you will get the impression that these displaced people are
> superimposed atop a landscape depicting somewhere wholly too urban and
> shiny to be really be surrounded by parks.  (In fact, the picture for
> Woodbury is actually a view of downtown Minneapolis as seen from the
> river next to the Stone Arch Bridge.)
>
> On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:
>>
>>     
>>> I'm bailing out of Uptown for the first time in ... forever. $900.mo for
>>> my cramped 2BR is not ideal anymore. Woodbury has some nice places with
>>> low crime. One of those is where I'm going, moving in with the gf and
>>> sharing the $640.mo rent.
>>>       
>> And there's this:
>>
>> http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/11/1117_best_places_to_raise_kids/24.htm
>>
>> The photo seems to suggest that there aren't any white kids living there,
>> which is hard for me to believe.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From jeruvin at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 17:56:48 2010
From: jeruvin at gmail.com (jason reynolds)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 17:56:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <4B9580B5.9030804@me.com>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org> <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>
	<4B9580B5.9030804@me.com>
Message-ID: <6eb23c4e1003081556h1c34c0b2xcae051814d71a204@mail.gmail.com>

I've lived in Golden Valley, Crystal, South Minneapolis and Bloomington. All
are good in their own ways. I've liked some places better than others due to
location to job and places friends like to hang out.

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> It makes you wonder what they have for the other 49 states.
>
> Robert Brown wrote:
> > But you will get the impression that these displaced people are
> > superimposed atop a landscape depicting somewhere wholly too urban and
> > shiny to be really be surrounded by parks.  (In fact, the picture for
> > Woodbury is actually a view of downtown Minneapolis as seen from the
> > river next to the Stone Arch Bridge.)
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 4:17 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 8 Mar 2010, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> I'm bailing out of Uptown for the first time in ... forever. $900.mo
> for
> >>> my cramped 2BR is not ideal anymore. Woodbury has some nice places with
> >>> low crime. One of those is where I'm going, moving in with the gf and
> >>> sharing the $640.mo rent.
> >>>
> >> And there's this:
> >>
> >>
> http://images.businessweek.com/ss/09/11/1117_best_places_to_raise_kids/24.htm
> >>
> >> The photo seems to suggest that there aren't any white kids living
> there,
> >> which is hard for me to believe.
> >>
> >> Mike
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
jason
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From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Mon Mar  8 18:07:59 2010
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 18:07:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Way OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org> <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AEFA52C3-890F-4FB6-8529-EF68C83BC82A@gmail.com>

On Mar 8, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Robert Brown <rbrown at rawmindz.com> wrote:

> But you will get the impression that these displaced people are
> superimposed atop a landscape depicting somewhere wholly too urban and
> shiny to be really be surrounded by parks.  (In fact, the picture for
> Woodbury is actually a view of downtown Minneapolis as seen from the
> river next to the Stone Arch Bridge.)

Too urban and shiny to be surrounded by parks? The Minneapolis park  
system was specifically designed so that you are never more than 6  
blocks from a park when you're in the city of Minneapolis.
And that photo appears to have been taken from within a park, if I'm  
not mistaken about the location.
Just though that was worth noting.

And a side side side note, I think this is PROBABLY the sort of email  
that the original sender wanted an off-list reply, which I already did.
- Justin 
  


From dutchman_mn at charter.net  Mon Mar  8 18:08:46 2010
From: dutchman_mn at charter.net (Perry Hoekstra)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:08:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <6eb23c4e1003081556h1c34c0b2xcae051814d71a204@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org>
	<4B95723E.4090507@me.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>	<4B9580B5.9030804@me.com>
	<6eb23c4e1003081556h1c34c0b2xcae051814d71a204@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4B95918E.7030907@charter.net>

What about Internet access? Some areas are limited to a single broadband 
supplier whiles others have a few choices.  In my case, my choices are 
Charter or Frontier DSL. 

Perry Hoekstra

jason reynolds wrote:
> I've lived in Golden Valley, Crystal, South Minneapolis and 
> Bloomington. All are good in their own ways. I've liked some places 
> better than others due to location to job and places friends like to 
> hang out.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   




From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Mar  8 18:13:36 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 18:13:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Way OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <AEFA52C3-890F-4FB6-8529-EF68C83BC82A@gmail.com>
References: <20100308151624.2cd580d9.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
	<4B956E26.3080002@lctn.org> <4B95723E.4090507@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003081615310.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<916e208f1003081444k58e03e5cveb039fcee355abf@mail.gmail.com>
	<AEFA52C3-890F-4FB6-8529-EF68C83BC82A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCFBBD25-F1C9-4FC0-8618-D09D221083DA@me.com>

Yes and I've lived here for 25 years... our definition of a park  
(green area with play equipment) and an east coaster's definition of a  
park (large open space with trees and water) differ greatly. They call  
what most of our parks are "playgrounds".


On Mar 8, 2010, at 6:07 PM, Justin Kremer wrote:

> On Mar 8, 2010, at 4:44 PM, Robert Brown <rbrown at rawmindz.com> wrote:
>
>> But you will get the impression that these displaced people are
>> superimposed atop a landscape depicting somewhere wholly too urban  
>> and
>> shiny to be really be surrounded by parks.  (In fact, the picture for
>> Woodbury is actually a view of downtown Minneapolis as seen from the
>> river next to the Stone Arch Bridge.)
>
> Too urban and shiny to be surrounded by parks? The Minneapolis park
> system was specifically designed so that you are never more than 6
> blocks from a park when you're in the city of Minneapolis.
> And that photo appears to have been taken from within a park, if I'm
> not mistaken about the location.
> Just though that was worth noting.
>
> And a side side side note, I think this is PROBABLY the sort of email
> that the original sender wanted an off-list reply, which I already  
> did.
> - Justin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Mar  8 20:32:24 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, Linux user)
Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 20:32:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <4B9581B0.2050001@comcast.net>
References: <56618.98.240.165.145.1268087160.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
	<4B9581B0.2050001@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20100308203224.ec94807e.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:01:04 -0600
Jeff Nelson <stutterstutt at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Such a list might include the following. What setting: urban or suburb? 
> What housing choice: house, condo, apartment? Roommate: yes/no? Relative 
> access (how easy to get to/from) church / library / work / grocery store 
> / coffee / parks / trails / mall / hospital / ... ?
> 
The type of housing would be a small rental house where I'd have freedom to install antennas outside for amateur radio.  I suspect that new neighborhoods wouldn't be for me, as they tend to have larger homes (more expensive) and CCRs (which would prohibit outside antennas).  Older neighborhoods, on the other hand, tend to have smaller houses and are less likely to have those CCRs.

I don't know where I'll be working in the years to come, but I think I can avoid long commutes if I live in a central location (Golden Valley, St. Louis Park, Minneapolis).  I wouldn't want to live in Burnsville and have to commute to Arden Hills or live in Maple Grove and have to commute to St. Paul.

-- 
Jason Hsu, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From aaronmill1 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 12:24:00 2010
From: aaronmill1 at gmail.com (Aaron)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 12:24:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities
In-Reply-To: <20100308203224.ec94807e.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
References: <56618.98.240.165.145.1268087160.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
	<4B9581B0.2050001@comcast.net>
	<20100308203224.ec94807e.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <1ec5e5751003091024v366135a0wc22c05e2fa9b419d@mail.gmail.com>

I've been living in St. Louis Park for the past 3 years and have enjoyed it
quite a bit. We get Comcast and Qwest DSL here for internet. You really
aren't much more than 5 miles from downtown and there are plenty of
alternative transportation options (buses, carpooling, bikes). The Greenway
goes right through SLP and into downtown if you are into that. Rent is cheap
for me also, I pay about $450 for a room w/ private bath and a couple of
roommates in a house. I'm sure you'd be able to find something in this area
that is inexpensive and works for you.

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Jason Hsu, Linux user <
jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Mar 2010 17:01:04 -0600
> Jeff Nelson <stutterstutt at comcast.net> wrote:
> >
> > Such a list might include the following. What setting: urban or suburb?
> > What housing choice: house, condo, apartment? Roommate: yes/no? Relative
> > access (how easy to get to/from) church / library / work / grocery store
> > / coffee / parks / trails / mall / hospital / ... ?
> >
> The type of housing would be a small rental house where I'd have freedom to
> install antennas outside for amateur radio.  I suspect that new
> neighborhoods wouldn't be for me, as they tend to have larger homes (more
> expensive) and CCRs (which would prohibit outside antennas).  Older
> neighborhoods, on the other hand, tend to have smaller houses and are less
> likely to have those CCRs.
>
> I don't know where I'll be working in the years to come, but I think I can
> avoid long commutes if I live in a central location (Golden Valley, St.
> Louis Park, Minneapolis).  I wouldn't want to live in Burnsville and have to
> commute to Arden Hills or live in Maple Grove and have to commute to St.
> Paul.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
>
> _______________________________________________
>  TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Mar  9 14:52:38 2010
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:52:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Trading code review services
Message-ID: <ddf6f4ca1003091252t3f9c836dwf5f9483fdb250a2d@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom

I'm interested in trading code review services with someone.
I have both hand-written and computer-written C++ code
that I'd like to have reviewed.  I'm working on an on line
code generator that writes C++ marshalling code based
on user input.   Ideally we could meet in the metro for the
review.

Some of the code I want to review  is linked to here --
http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html .


-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From jwreese0 at comcast.net  Wed Mar 10 13:27:12 2010
From: jwreese0 at comcast.net (John Reese)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 13:27:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Linux professional talent in the Chicago area?
Message-ID: <1268249232.2032.4.camel@kubuntu>

Can anybody recommend Linux professional talent in the Chicago metro
area? I have a client who needs to ship a Red Hat server with a history
of 'issues'. I may need someone in the area to inspect the server and
the backups before we shut it down.

John Reese



From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Mar 10 15:37:55 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:37:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <4B8E5C3C.8030104@gmail.com>;
	from jherrick@gmail.com on Wed, Mar 03, 2010 at 07:55:24AM -0500
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org> <4B8E5C3C.8030104@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>


I've listened to the arguments; and I'm more swayed by the opinion that the
convenience of reply-to-list is better than any risks due to
reply-to-sender.

So I've changed the list settings back to what they were many years ago; and
replies should now go to the list instead of the sender of the message. 

This will serve as a sort of test message. I'll see whether the headers get
set correctly according to what I think should happen.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From pcutler at gnome.org  Wed Mar 10 15:48:30 2010
From: pcutler at gnome.org (Paul Cutler)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:48:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Linux professional talent in the Chicago area?
In-Reply-To: <1268249232.2032.4.camel@kubuntu>
References: <1268249232.2032.4.camel@kubuntu>
Message-ID: <1268257710.6729.21.camel@sandman.site>

On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 13:27 -0600, John Reese wrote:
> Can anybody recommend Linux professional talent in the Chicago metro
> area? I have a client who needs to ship a Red Hat server with a history
> of 'issues'. I may need someone in the area to inspect the server and
> the backups before we shut it down.
> 
> John Reese
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

Chicago has a very vibrant Linux community.  I know the President of the
Chicago LUG if you're interested or I know a consultant who may be able
to help.  Let me know.

Paul



From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Mar 10 15:46:42 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:46:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org> <4B8E5C3C.8030104@gmail.com>
	<20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <4B981342.70105@me.com>

Thanks, Carl! It appears to work.

Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> I've listened to the arguments; and I'm more swayed by the opinion that the
> convenience of reply-to-list is better than any risks due to
> reply-to-sender.
>
> So I've changed the list settings back to what they were many years ago; and
> replies should now go to the list instead of the sender of the message. 
>
> This will serve as a sort of test message. I'll see whether the headers get
> set correctly according to what I think should happen.
>
>   



From kris.browne at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 15:53:23 2010
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 15:53:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>

Thank you, that'll make sending from mobile devices much quicker.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Mar 10, 2010 15:43, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom &lt;chrome at real-time.com&gt; wrote: 



I've listened to the arguments; and I'm more swayed by the opinion that the

convenience of reply-to-list is better than any risks due to

reply-to-sender.



So I've changed the list settings back to what they were many years ago; and

replies should now go to the list instead of the sender of the message. 



This will serve as a sort of test message. I'll see whether the headers get

set correctly according to what I think should happen.



-- 

Carl Soderstrom

Systems Administrator

Real-Time Enterprises

www.real-time.com



_______________________________________________

TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota

tclug-list at mn-linux.org

http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 16:02:35 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:02:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
References: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010, Kristopher Browne wrote:

> Thank you, that'll make sending from mobile devices much quicker.
>
>
>
> -- Sent from my Palm Pre


The other messages had only the list address in the Reply-To field, but 
this message (that I am now replying to) had both the sender address and 
the list address in the Reply-To field.  I guess if the sender sets 
Reply-To himself, then the list appends to that.

Mike


From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Mar 10 16:14:17 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:14:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 04:02:35PM -0600
References: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100310161416.E22107@real-time.com>

On 03/10 04:02 , Mike Miller wrote:
> The other messages had only the list address in the Reply-To field, but 
> this message (that I am now replying to) had both the sender address and 
> the list address in the Reply-To field.  I guess if the sender sets 
> Reply-To himself, then the list appends to that.

Thanks for noticing that Mike.
So if you want to have replies go directly to you; put your address in the
Reply-To: header. Mutt will respond to both; not sure of the behavior of
other MUAs.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 10 16:53:29 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 16:53:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEENNDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

Took a while for the change to settle in, but it has changed.  I replied to Mike at 4:43 and it went to him, not the list.


-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Cole [mailto:cncole at earthlink.net]
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 4:43 PM
To: Mike Miller
Subject: RE: [tclug-list] OT: where to live in the Twin Cities


I like the South suburbs and have lived in Apple Valley 24 years and a few moves.  Easy access to the cities when necessary, lower
taxes, etc.

Chuck


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Carl Wilhelm
> Soderstrom
> Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2010 3:38 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
>
>
>
> I've listened to the arguments; and I'm more swayed by the opinion that the
> convenience of reply-to-list is better than any risks due to
> reply-to-sender.
>
> So I've changed the list settings back to what they were many years ago; and
> replies should now go to the list instead of the sender of the message.
>
> This will serve as a sort of test message. I'll see whether the headers get
> set correctly according to what I think should happen.
>
> --
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 9.0.733 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2733 - Release Date: 03/10/10 01:33:00
>



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 17:12:15 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 17:12:15 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEENNDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEENNDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101711330.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 10 Mar 2010, Chuck Cole wrote:

> Took a while for the change to settle in, but it has changed.  I replied 
> to Mike at 4:43 and it went to him, not the list.


Chuck--

It will only work on messages that passed through the list after the 
change was made.  You replied to a message that I sent before the change 
was made.

Mike


From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 10 18:25:22 2010
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:25:22 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>
	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org> <4B8E5C3C.8030104@gmail.com>
	<20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <1268267122.26629.0.camel@robert>

Thanks Carl!

On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 15:37 -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> I've listened to the arguments; and I'm more swayed by the opinion that the
> convenience of reply-to-list is better than any risks due to
> reply-to-sender.
> 
> So I've changed the list settings back to what they were many years ago; and
> replies should now go to the list instead of the sender of the message. 
> 
> This will serve as a sort of test message. I'll see whether the headers get
> set correctly according to what I think should happen.
> 




From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Wed Mar 10 18:53:52 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 18:53:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <1268267122.26629.0.camel@robert>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003011927450.10559@localhost.localdomain>	<20100302021058.GK25460@iris.iucha.org>	<20100302032413.GL25460@iris.iucha.org>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003012240140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<4B8D171D.8050307@redstargaming.net>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021000560.25364@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<20100302112340.F26363@real-time.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003021302140.14380@localhost.localdomain>	<20100303092401.GD4447@sherohman.org>
	<4B8E5C3C.8030104@gmail.com>	<20100310153755.C22107@real-time.com>
	<1268267122.26629.0.camel@robert>
Message-ID: <4B983F20.6020302@redstargaming.net>

Indeed!  Thank you!

On 3/10/2010 6:25 PM, Robert wrote:
> Thanks Carl!
>
> On Wed, 2010-03-10 at 15:37 -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>    
>> I've listened to the arguments; and I'm more swayed by the opinion that the
>> convenience of reply-to-list is better than any risks due to
>> reply-to-sender.
>>
>> So I've changed the list settings back to what they were many years ago; and
>> replies should now go to the list instead of the sender of the message.
>>
>> This will serve as a sort of test message. I'll see whether the headers get
>> set correctly according to what I think should happen.
>>
>>      
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>    


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 21:09:36 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 21:09:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Linux professional talent in the Chicago area?
In-Reply-To: <1268257710.6729.21.camel@sandman.site>
References: <1268249232.2032.4.camel@kubuntu>
	<1268257710.6729.21.camel@sandman.site>
Message-ID: <254fef0f1003101909k76c3d587hb62ec274afe99d6@mail.gmail.com>

If he can't help you himself, he probably knows someone who can:  Rich
Johnson, http://www.nixternal.com/contact

 - Tony Yarusso


From ron.e.nelson at gmail.com  Wed Mar 10 22:07:28 2010
From: ron.e.nelson at gmail.com (Ron Nelson)
Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 22:07:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <be48c3341003102007s14cfae9bm6833b70496cf0e12@mail.gmail.com>

actually I've done 15 or 20 foot KVM cables going to Belkin KVM.  given the
KVM would run unpowered I don't think it was doing much with the signal.
 That was with PS2 keyboard/mouse, and did get that cheap 1U server in a
closet on the other side of the room for much more comfortable office.

Heck, still have that cable in a bin if  interested...

Ron

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom <
chrome at real-time.com> wrote:

> I'd like to relocate my computers from my office to a room in the basement;
> and just run really long keyboard/video/mouse cables to the office.
>
> This would require a run of about 25 feet tho.
>
> Does anyone have experience with KVM cables (not involving a KVM switch;
> just going from monitor to computer) that long? I've heard of people having
> problems with pushing the keyboard signal that far; and I've seen RF
> interference when crappy equipment is involved.
>
> Any brands that anyone can recommend?
>
> Newegg lists companies like StarTech and CablesToGo.
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812196116
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200137
>
> Anyone have experience with these?
>
> --
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
http://ronspace.org/
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From dave at sherohman.org  Thu Mar 11 02:00:19 2010
From: dave at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:00:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100310161416.E22107@real-time.com>
References: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100310161416.E22107@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20100311080019.GS4447@sherohman.org>

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 04:14:17PM -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> On 03/10 04:02 , Mike Miller wrote:
> > The other messages had only the list address in the Reply-To field, but 
> > this message (that I am now replying to) had both the sender address and 
> > the list address in the Reply-To field.  I guess if the sender sets 
> > Reply-To himself, then the list appends to that.
> 
> Thanks for noticing that Mike.
> So if you want to have replies go directly to you; put your address in the
> Reply-To: header. Mutt will respond to both; not sure of the behavior of
> other MUAs.

Carl, did you deliberately set it up that way or is that the default
behavior of the list management software?

Either way, that doesn't seem right to me.  Normally, lists which set
Reply-To will only add it if it is not present and leave it alone if the
user has already inserted their own Reply-To header.

Aside from being (in my experience) unusual, appending to an existing
Reply-To strikes me as wrong in that it leaves users with no way to
specify that replies should go solely to them, which disables use cases
such as the classic "please send all possible solutions privately and
I'll post a summary to the list" or the much more common "I'm conducting
a poll on X; vote by emailing me directly and I'll post the results in
one week".

-- 
Dave Sherohman


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 02:41:28 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 02:41:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100311080019.GS4447@sherohman.org>
References: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100310161416.E22107@real-time.com>
	<20100311080019.GS4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003110235540.28498@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Dave Sherohman wrote:

> Aside from being (in my experience) unusual, appending to an existing 
> Reply-To strikes me as wrong in that it leaves users with no way to 
> specify that replies should go solely to them, which disables use cases 
> such as the classic "please send all possible solutions privately and 
> I'll post a summary to the list"

I hate that one.  How many people either send the same thing, thus wasting 
all of their time, or send nothing because they assume someone else did 
it.  I think this is called a "discussion list," isn't it?

Don't forget the annoying people who have their address in Reply-To all 
the time and thereby screw everyone up when they want to reply to the list 
only.  I used to be one of them, but not anymore.


> or the much more common "I'm conducting a poll on X; vote by emailing me 
> directly and I'll post the results in one week".

That won't work anyway because at least about 5 people will start spamming 
the list with their opinions.  There is no defense.

I'm sure you understand that having the list address added to the Reply-To 
field does not stop people from replying to the sender (From address). 
For people who have different From and Reply-To, this new system works 
great.

Mike


From sfertch at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 05:25:21 2010
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 05:25:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] really long KVM cables?
In-Reply-To: <20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>
References: <20100304084833.A18254@real-time.com>
	<138774fd1003040651h16a20109ic9ee79041170ab3d@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003040950020.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100304100535.F18254@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003041026450.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<cac10ddc1003040943h2739dde3n9351d45c6ba238c7@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100304131831.M18254@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <67f3084a1003110325k5c82d196t8198738fb4346ef0@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 13:18, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
<chrome at real-time.com>wrote:

>
> At times in the past (before I worked for RTE) I've worked in some noisy
> rooms. Enough so that I was glad to get out of them and away from the
> noise.
>
> Right now the noise isn't such that it would really bother you much if you
> didn't listen to it 14 hours a day... but there are some times when I'm
> glad
> to put on the earmuffs and enjoy some additional quiet. My home office is
> comparatively small, and there's little to absorb the noise, so it seems
> louder and more irritating. Moreso than when I had the same computers in a
> larger room.
>
> Yep. But while >130db is painful and damaging in a short period of time; it
> doesn't mean that longer-term exposure isn't damaging as well. I've been
> around the noise of fans and drives almost continually for 10+ years. Yes,
> much of that has probably been well under 70db; but I don't know if there's
> any sort of quantum threshold beneath which there's *no* damage.
>
> Oleg Volk made a really cool graphic about noise levels.
> http://olegvolk.net/gallery/technology/misc/noisevolume2.jpg.html
>
> In any case, my empirical results are that there are times at which I
> really
> want to wear earmuffs because the noise levels bother me. That's enough to
> make me want to relocate these computers elsewhere.
>
> > I wear hearing protection around guns as much as possible.
>
> Too bad silencers aren't legal in MN. They're legal to own in a lot of
> other
> states; but you pay a $200 federal tax on them (and wait for goofermint
> approval) in any case.
>
> I'm really hoping that my next monitors will be bigger than 1600x1200; so I
> would like a solution that will support that (at least, if I'm to be
> investing much money into it).
>
>
I'm in the same situation as Carl.  The fans on my workstations are
annoying, loud, etc. and I'd prefer to not listen to them.  Unfortunately, I
can't relocate my computer for various reasons (preferences more than
anything), so I have to listen to it hum along.  I've put in supposedly
quiet fans, reduced power consumption in efforts to help cut down the heat,
etc.

Best option I've been able to come up with is to replace the video card fan
with a fanless heat sink with a Zalman VNF-100.  But, that's only compatible
with certain cards.  Still need a fan for the P/S and CPU which are the
noisiest IMO.  I don't believe in liquid cooling due to cost, hassle, and
still not liking the idea of fluid in electrical components.

I do have an ASUS EeePC netbook.  But, that is more for travel as I need the
power of a desktop and still run Vista on my workstation (don't worry,
servers and netbook are running Linux).  I've thought of buying a really
large notebook as a workstation replacement.  However, last time I did that,
it cost me far too much money, was overly cumbersome, still lacked in
performance and I had to send it back to the vendor for repairs too many
times.

Regarding hearing loss, it's a mixed bag.  A lot of it is due to the
environments we put ourselves into as well as being genetic.  We still don't
know everything about our genetic makeup and how it's affected over
countless years.  In a way, I'm glad we don't.



-- 
-Shawn
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From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar 11 08:35:56 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:35:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100311080019.GS4447@sherohman.org>;
	from dave@sherohman.org on Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 02:00:19AM -0600
References: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100310161416.E22107@real-time.com>
	<20100311080019.GS4447@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <20100311083556.I22107@real-time.com>

On 03/11 02:00 , Dave Sherohman wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 04:14:17PM -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> > On 03/10 04:02 , Mike Miller wrote:
> > > The other messages had only the list address in the Reply-To field, but 
> > > this message (that I am now replying to) had both the sender address and 
> > > the list address in the Reply-To field.  I guess if the sender sets 
> > > Reply-To himself, then the list appends to that.
> > 
> > Thanks for noticing that Mike.
> > So if you want to have replies go directly to you; put your address in the
> > Reply-To: header. Mutt will respond to both; not sure of the behavior of
> > other MUAs.
> 
> Carl, did you deliberately set it up that way or is that the default
> behavior of the list management software?

The doco for mailman seemed to indicate that when the reply-to header was
set to point to the mailing list, that it would strip other reply-to
headers. That said, there is also a setting available that will strip
preexisting reply-to headers.

> Either way, that doesn't seem right to me.  Normally, lists which set
> Reply-To will only add it if it is not present and leave it alone if the
> user has already inserted their own Reply-To header.

The problem with this is that the behavior is inconsistent from message to
message. When replying to some people's messages, the 'reply' function will
go to the list; and with other messages the same keystrokes will reply to
the sender. This violates the principle of least surprise. I personally use
mutt and when I'm composing a message I don't have the 'To:' field visible.
Combine that with how fast and easy it is to use mutt; and it's really easy
to pay absolutely no attention to where the message is going. I *expect* the
message to return from whence it came -- and if it came from a mailing list
(which is a proxy for the original sender) then it should return along the
same path. 

Really, how many people send you messages with a different Reply-To: header?
It's valid; but unusual in practice and would tend to make me suspicious.

I'm reasonably happy with the list behavior as it is. Nothing will satisfy
everyone tho.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From sraun at fireopal.org  Thu Mar 11 11:32:26 2010
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 11:32:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100311083556.I22107@real-time.com>
References: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100310161416.E22107@real-time.com>
	<20100311080019.GS4447@sherohman.org>
	<20100311083556.I22107@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20100311173226.GA19958@fireopal.org>

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 08:35:56AM -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> Really, how many people send you messages with a different Reply-To: header?
> It's valid; but unusual in practice and would tend to make me suspicious.

I do it occasionally.  But when I do it, I'm setting the Reply-To to
the address for another club's monthly newsletter, and I'm asking for
some kind of update.  It's pretty obvious what I'm doing and why.
(Not to mention the fact that I make it widely known 'if the info
isn't in THAT mailbox, it doesn't make it into the newsletter, even if
I do know it for some other reason'.)

-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org


From adam at askewview.net  Thu Mar 11 14:18:27 2010
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:18:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
Message-ID: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net>

Hello all,

At home I'm running a Centos 5 server with Samba shares for a home file 
server.
I have a couple of Linux workstations but most are Windows based 
(Roommates).

I'm looking for a anti-virus solution to run on the Centos server to try 
and catch anything that might be missed by the various AV applications 
running on the client side.

Something open source would be ideal.  I stumbled across ClamAV but that 
appears to be more for scanning incoming/outgoing email.


Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

--Adam


From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar 11 14:33:44 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 14:33:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net>;
	from adam@askewview.net on Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 02:18:27PM -0600
References: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net>
Message-ID: <20100311143344.P22107@real-time.com>

On 03/11 02:18 , Adam wrote:
> Something open source would be ideal.  I stumbled across ClamAV but that 
> appears to be more for scanning incoming/outgoing email.

ClamAV can do scans of arbitrary files.
On-Access scanning is resource-intensive; so I'd suggest that you have a
cron job set to run every so often, to run clamscan against the files you
want to protect.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Thu Mar 11 15:13:24 2010
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:13:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net>
References: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net>
Message-ID: <4B995CF4.5060508@cdf123.net>

Adam wrote, On 03/11/10 14:18:
> Hello all,
> 
> At home I'm running a Centos 5 server with Samba shares for a home file 
> server.
> I have a couple of Linux workstations but most are Windows based 
> (Roommates).
> 
> I'm looking for a anti-virus solution to run on the Centos server to try 
> and catch anything that might be missed by the various AV applications 
> running on the client side.
> 
> Something open source would be ideal.  I stumbled across ClamAV but that 
> appears to be more for scanning incoming/outgoing email.
> 
> 
> Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> --Adam
> 

Google is your friend.  This is a howto on getting samba + clamav +
samba-vscan to work on a CentOS 5.2 system.

http://www.howtoforge.com/samba-clamd-samba-vscan-on-centos-5.2

samba-vscan gives on access scanning through clamav when files are
accessed through samba.  This is nice since it's not scanning the
complete filesystem, only what was shared via samba.

Chris


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 15:49:26 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:49:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Reply-to on this list
In-Reply-To: <20100311173226.GA19958@fireopal.org>
References: <4b9814d9.1ac1f10a.4bac.4360@mx.google.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003101600540.30592@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100310161416.E22107@real-time.com>
	<20100311080019.GS4447@sherohman.org>
	<20100311083556.I22107@real-time.com>
	<20100311173226.GA19958@fireopal.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003111542280.28498@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 11 Mar 2010, Scott Raun wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 08:35:56AM -0600, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>
>> Really, how many people send you messages with a different Reply-To: 
>> header? It's valid; but unusual in practice and would tend to make me 
>> suspicious.
>
> I do it occasionally.  But when I do it, I'm setting the Reply-To to the 
> address for another club's monthly newsletter, and I'm asking for some 
> kind of update.  It's pretty obvious what I'm doing and why. (Not to 
> mention the fact that I make it widely known 'if the info isn't in THAT 
> mailbox, it doesn't make it into the newsletter, even if I do know it 
> for some other reason'.)


I used to do it, and I had a good reason.  Email always went to my account 
on campus, but a copy of every incoming message always went from there to 
my gmail account.  When I was using my handheld device, and at rare other 
times, I would send from the gmail account and Bcc to my university 
computer, but I would also use Reply-To so that replies would go to my 
university computer (I also had "From" set up as my university account, 
but gmail always added "Sender," which could throw off some MUAs).  If the 
messages didn't go there, and went directly to gmail instead, they would 
not make it to my university machine and I would probably never see them. 
So that all made sense, but...

All of my list subscriptions were to the university machine where I read 
my email, so I had no reason to receive list traffic to the Reply-To 
address, and didn't even want it to go there.  So for me, at that time, it 
probably would have been better to have Reply-To munging from the list.

Mike


From blutgens at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 15:57:41 2010
From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 15:57:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <4B995CF4.5060508@cdf123.net>
References: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net> <4B995CF4.5060508@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <face7dfd1003111357l1edda9c9w3430eb859e298926@mail.gmail.com>

Not sure its still out there, but there used to be an on-access scanner
kernel module called "Dazuko" which you could use with clam or some such.

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net> wrote:

> Adam wrote, On 03/11/10 14:18:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > At home I'm running a Centos 5 server with Samba shares for a home file
> > server.
> > I have a couple of Linux workstations but most are Windows based
> > (Roommates).
> >
> > I'm looking for a anti-virus solution to run on the Centos server to try
> > and catch anything that might be missed by the various AV applications
> > running on the client side.
> >
> > Something open source would be ideal.  I stumbled across ClamAV but that
> > appears to be more for scanning incoming/outgoing email.
> >
> >
> > Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
> >
> > --Adam
> >
>
> Google is your friend.  This is a howto on getting samba + clamav +
> samba-vscan to work on a CentOS 5.2 system.
>
> http://www.howtoforge.com/samba-clamd-samba-vscan-on-centos-5.2
>
> samba-vscan gives on access scanning through clamav when files are
> accessed through samba.  This is nice since it's not scanning the
> complete filesystem, only what was shared via samba.
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Ben Lutgens
Linux / Unix System Administror

Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
"I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
      -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
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From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Mar 11 16:52:17 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:52:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <face7dfd1003111357l1edda9c9w3430eb859e298926@mail.gmail.com>;
	from blutgens@gmail.com on Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 03:57:41PM -0600
References: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net> <4B995CF4.5060508@cdf123.net>
	<face7dfd1003111357l1edda9c9w3430eb859e298926@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100311165217.R22107@real-time.com>

On 03/11 03:57 , Ben wrote:
> Not sure its still out there, but there used to be an on-access scanner
> kernel module called "Dazuko" which you could use with clam or some such.

Clamuko is a clamav interface to Dazuko.
Their website says that samba-vscan is much better.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com  Thu Mar 11 18:24:59 2010
From: Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com (Smith, Craig A)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:24:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Postfix, Comcast, Relayhost and port 587
Message-ID: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604F9EAC7@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>

I run a hobby server on a Comcast residential connection.  
 
A number of years ago, I noticed larger organizations (Gmail, etc) began
rejecting email from dynamic ip.  The solution was a "smart host" to
relay email.  Comcast would accept connections on port 25 and forward
from their well-know (unblocked) ip address.  Here's the line I added to
/etc/postfix/main.cf that made it work.
 
    relayhost = smtp.comcast.net
 
Last year, there was discussion on this list about Comcast blocking port
25.  I was unaffected at that time.  
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2009-February/thread.h
tml 
 
However, last month on or after Feb 8, 2010,  Comcast stopped accepting
my port 25 connections.  
 
    $ telnet smtp.comcast.net 25
    Trying 76.96.30.117...
    telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection timed out
 
I called Comcast and they said "that's right, use port 587."    I can
telnet to port 587 , but I believe this requires authentication,
presumably with my Comcast credentials.  
 
I've reconfigure postfix for port 587 per 
http://www.kclug.org/pipermail/kclug/2008-February/032558.html 
 
and setup SMTP Authentication per 
http://www.freelock.com/kb/postfix-relayhost 
but I'm stuck on the last step:
 
     # urpmi --media main libsasl2-plug-login libsasl2-plug-plain
    bash: urpmi: command not found
 
Can someone supply the magical apt-get incantation to get me started?
 
I'm running postfix 2.3.8 on Debian and can live with only out-going
mail.  
 
 
 
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From gm5729 at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 18:41:37 2010
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gm5729)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:41:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Postfix, Comcast, Relayhost and port 587
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604F9EAC7@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604F9EAC7@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <66026d801003111641o75443450l4036471210109a4e@mail.gmail.com>

If this server is just so you can use your own MUA and then use GMails
SMTP. There web page has explicit instructions. I have had better luck
with POP# vs IMAP. Ports are list also in that set of instructions.

VP

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 18:24, Smith, Craig A
<Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> I run a hobby server on a Comcast residential connection.
>
>
>
> A number of years ago, I noticed larger organizations (Gmail, etc) began
> rejecting email from dynamic ip.? The solution was a ?smart host? to relay
> email.? Comcast would accept connections on port 25 and forward from their
> well-know (unblocked) ip address.? Here?s the line I added to
> /etc/postfix/main.cf that made it work.
>
>
>
> ??? relayhost = smtp.comcast.net
>
>
>
> Last year, there was discussion on this list about Comcast blocking port
> 25.? I was unaffected at that time.
>
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2009-February/thread.html
>
>
>
> However, last month on or after Feb 8, 2010,? Comcast stopped accepting my
> port 25 connections.
>
>
>
> ??? $ telnet smtp.comcast.net 25
>
> ??? Trying 76.96.30.117...
>
> ??? telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection timed out
>
>
>
> I called Comcast and they said ?that?s right, use port 587.???? I can telnet
> to port 587 , but I believe this requires authentication, presumably with my
> Comcast credentials.
>
>
>
> I?ve reconfigure postfix for port 587 per
>
> http://www.kclug.org/pipermail/kclug/2008-February/032558.html
>
>
>
> and setup SMTP Authentication per
>
> http://www.freelock.com/kb/postfix-relayhost
>
> but I?m stuck on the last step:
>
>
>
> ??? ?# urpmi --media main libsasl2-plug-login libsasl2-plug-plain
>
> ??? bash: urpmi: command not found
>
>
>
> Can someone supply the magical apt-get incantation to get me started?
>
>
>
> I?m running postfix 2.3.8 on Debian and can live with only out-going mail.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Mar 11 19:38:16 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:38:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Postfix, Comcast, Relayhost and port 587
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604F9EAC7@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604F9EAC7@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f1003111738j23de4d6dp7b514c8ae159870@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Smith, Craig A
<Craig.A.Smith at honeywell.com> wrote:
> but I?m stuck on the last step:
>
> ??? ?# urpmi --media main libsasl2-plug-login libsasl2-plug-plain
>
> ??? bash: urpmi: command not found

Right, since urpmi is for Mandriva.

> Can someone supply the magical apt-get incantation to get me started?

apt-get install libsasl2-modules   (That package will provide both
LOGIN and PLAIN.)

 - Tony Yarusso


From mfunger at arbita.net  Fri Mar 12 09:17:27 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew F. Unger)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:17:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Postfix, Comcast, Relayhost and port 587
In-Reply-To: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604F9EAC7@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
References: <352399F8DB39E14FBB4B648897CA32E604F9EAC7@DE08EV802.global.ds.honeywell.com>
Message-ID: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A57@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>

As a bit of extra knowledge, if you don't know the exact package name,
from the CLI:

aptitude search libasl

That will return a list of any packages that you have in the cache that
have libasl in them. Then hit it with apt-get install <package name>. If
you don't see the package you're looking for, make sure you run:

apt-get update

Then retry the search.

 

Matt Unger

 

From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Smith, Craig A
Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 6:25 PM
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: [tclug-list] Postfix, Comcast, Relayhost and port 587

 

I run a hobby server on a Comcast residential connection.  

 

A number of years ago, I noticed larger organizations (Gmail, etc) began
rejecting email from dynamic ip.  The solution was a "smart host" to
relay email.  Comcast would accept connections on port 25 and forward
from their well-know (unblocked) ip address.  Here's the line I added to
/etc/postfix/main.cf that made it work.

 

    relayhost = smtp.comcast.net

 

Last year, there was discussion on this list about Comcast blocking port
25.  I was unaffected at that time.  

http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2009-February/thread.h
tml 

 

However, last month on or after Feb 8, 2010,  Comcast stopped accepting
my port 25 connections.  

 

    $ telnet smtp.comcast.net 25

    Trying 76.96.30.117...

    telnet: Unable to connect to remote host: Connection timed out

 

I called Comcast and they said "that's right, use port 587."    I can
telnet to port 587 , but I believe this requires authentication,
presumably with my Comcast credentials.  

 

I've reconfigure postfix for port 587 per 

http://www.kclug.org/pipermail/kclug/2008-February/032558.html 

 

and setup SMTP Authentication per 

http://www.freelock.com/kb/postfix-relayhost 

but I'm stuck on the last step:

 

     # urpmi --media main libsasl2-plug-login libsasl2-plug-plain

    bash: urpmi: command not found

 

Can someone supply the magical apt-get incantation to get me started?

 

I'm running postfix 2.3.8 on Debian and can live with only out-going
mail.  

 

 

 

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From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 10:29:18 2010
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 08:29:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
Message-ID: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Our company was just acquired by one in TX.  We are now in the position of having to keep a local and remote linux (Centos54) file servers synced up.  We have an automated build process that spits out about a 4GB build every night or even more often at times.  This is now being done on the corporate network.  We have local test facilities that use these builds, as well as corporate facilities that need access to our local resources.  It's all getting to be pretty messy.  

We are trying to keep the file servers synced up using rsync.  Unfortunately sometime it takes a while for this huge amount of data to be synced up, or worse, someone makes a change to the local server's files, which gets overwritten on the next rsync.

I was wondering if there was a way to create a common file system between both sites (here in MN and TX).  GFS sounds like it might work, but I have not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.  I remember there use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.

Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both networks.  When a file is opened, the network compares the local and remote file systems and the newest version is used.  If the remote is the newest, it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated and the next use will be entirely local.  Am I dreaming?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.

 --- 
Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis


      
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From gm5729 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 10:51:45 2010
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gm5729)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:51:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <66026d801003120851q1961a9b7v192187f0f5895b91@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like you need GIT or SVN for revision control, and
accountability/trackability of changes.




On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:29, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Our company was just acquired by one in TX.? We are now in the position of
> having to keep a local and remote linux (Centos54) file servers synced up.
> We have an automated build process that spits out about a 4GB build every
> night or even more often at times.? This is now being done on the corporate
> network.? We have local test facilities that use these builds, as well as
> corporate facilities that need access to our local resources.? It's all
> getting to be pretty messy.
>
> We are trying to keep the file servers synced up using rsync.? Unfortunately
> sometime it takes a while for this huge amount of data to be synced up, or
> worse, someone makes a change to the local server's files, which gets
> overwritten on the next rsync.
>
> I was wondering if there was a way to create a common file system between
> both sites (here in MN and TX).? GFS sounds like it might work, but I have
> not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.? I remember there
> use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.
>
> Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both
> networks.? When a file is opened, the network compares the local and remote
> file systems and the newest version is used.? If the remote is the newest,
> it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated
> and the next use will be entirely local.? Am I dreaming?
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ---
> Wayne Johnson,???????????? | There are two kinds of people: Those
> 3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done,"
> Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right,
> (612) 522-7003???????????? | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 10:57:37 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:57:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <20100311165217.R22107@real-time.com>
References: <4B995013.9020005@askewview.net> <4B995CF4.5060508@cdf123.net>
	<face7dfd1003111357l1edda9c9w3430eb859e298926@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100311165217.R22107@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <cac45c241003120857w45561c1fu8474a08512a51f47@mail.gmail.com>

It could be argued that if there is malware sitting on your file
server then you don't need AV for your file server, your roommates
need some quality time with a clue-by-four. ;-)

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From sfertch at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 11:10:57 2010
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:10:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <67f3084a1003120910n74df87e1yab067f205ccb8d22@mail.gmail.com>

I would not use gfs over wan.  Instead, look to frame based replication if
it's on a san

On Mar 12, 2010 10:36 AM, "Wayne Johnson" <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:

Our company was just acquired by one in TX.  We are now in the position of
having to keep a local and remote linux (Centos54) file servers synced up.
We have an automated build process that spits out about a 4GB build every
night or even more often at times.  This is now being done on the corporate
network.  We have local test facilities that use these builds, as well as
corporate facilities that need access to our local resources.  It's all
getting to be pretty messy.

We are trying to keep the file servers synced up using rsync.  Unfortunately
sometime it takes a while for this huge amount of data to be synced up, or
worse, someone makes a change to the local server's files, which gets
overwritten on the next rsync.

I was wondering if there was a way to create a common file system between
both sites (here in MN and TX).  GFS sounds like it might work, but I have
not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.  I remember there
use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.

Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both
networks.  When a file is opened, the network compares the local and remote
file systems and the newest version is used.  If the remote is the newest,
it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated
and the next use will be entirely local.  Am I dreaming?

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.

---
Wayne Johnson,             | There are two kinds of people: Those
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done,"
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right,
(612) 522-7003             | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis



_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 12 11:09:56 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:09:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <66026d801003120851q1961a9b7v192187f0f5895b91@mail.gmail.com>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<66026d801003120851q1961a9b7v192187f0f5895b91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100312170956.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:51:45AM -0600, gm5729 wrote:
> Sounds like you need GIT or SVN for revision control, and
> accountability/trackability of changes.

Wayne specifically talked about build artifacts.  Adding 4gb daily to
GIT is not fun and to SVN might be downright impossible.

However, this brings out another question: why can't you run the build
on both sites?  You can have only one site produce the 'blessed
release', but for nightlies, you might be better off to do it locally,
maybe even comparing the checksums of the binaries every once in a while.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 11:11:04 2010
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:11:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <66026d801003120851q1961a9b7v192187f0f5895b91@mail.gmail.com>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<66026d801003120851q1961a9b7v192187f0f5895b91@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <673632.20185.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Got them both, as well as CVS.  But that would mean that we'll be building on both sites.  We have millions of lines of code.  A build can take hours, and we don't have resources to do that on both sides.

Thanks for trying.

 --- 
Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis





________________________________
From: gm5729 <gm5729 at gmail.com>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 10:51:45 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN

Sounds like you need GIT or SVN for revision control, and
accountability/trackability of changes.




On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:29, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Our company was just acquired by one in TX.  We are now in the position of
> having to keep a local and remote linux (Centos54) file servers synced up.
> We have an automated build process that spits out about a 4GB build every
> night or even more often at times.  This is now being done on the corporate
> network.  We have local test facilities that use these builds, as well as
> corporate facilities that need access to our local resources.  It's all
> getting to be pretty messy.
>
> We are trying to keep the file servers synced up using rsync.  Unfortunately
> sometime it takes a while for this huge amount of data to be synced up, or
> worse, someone makes a change to the local server's files, which gets
> overwritten on the next rsync.
>
> I was wondering if there was a way to create a common file system between
> both sites (here in MN and TX).  GFS sounds like it might work, but I have
> not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.  I remember there
> use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.
>
> Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both
> networks.  When a file is opened, the network compares the local and remote
> file systems and the newest version is used.  If the remote is the newest,
> it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated
> and the next use will be entirely local.  Am I dreaming?
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
>
> ---
> Wayne Johnson,             | There are two kinds of people: Those
> 3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done,"
> Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right,
> (612) 522-7003             | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



      
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From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 11:25:14 2010
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:25:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <20100312170956.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<66026d801003120851q1961a9b7v192187f0f5895b91@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100312170956.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <496379.80863.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Been there, done that.  The build uses 13 different platforms (Sun, AIX, Tandem, zOS, Linux, HPUX, DecUnix, SCO Unix, Unixware, VAX, etc.).  Not going to happen.  

BTW, binary compares of executables build on two different systems is a non-starter since most compilers tend to imbed datestamps into the objects.

Good ideas though.  


 --- 
Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis





________________________________
From: Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 11:09:56 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:51:45AM -0600, gm5729 wrote:
> Sounds like you need GIT or SVN for revision control, and
> accountability/trackability of changes.

Wayne specifically talked about build artifacts.  Adding 4gb daily to
GIT is not fun and to SVN might be downright impossible.

However, this brings out another question: why can't you run the build
on both sites?  You can have only one site produce the 'blessed
release', but for nightlies, you might be better off to do it locally,
maybe even comparing the checksums of the binaries every once in a while.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163



      
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From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 11:29:09 2010
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:29:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <67f3084a1003120910n74df87e1yab067f205ccb8d22@mail.gmail.com>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<67f3084a1003120910n74df87e1yab067f205ccb8d22@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <491034.83824.qm@web53802.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Sounds like something to investigate.  Not sure we have any SAN available.  Anything SANish run on Linux.  

 --- 
Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis





________________________________
From: Shawn Fertch <sfertch at gmail.com>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 11:10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN


I would not use gfs over wan.  Instead, look to frame based replication if it's on a san
On Mar 12, 2010 10:36 AM, "Wayne Johnson" <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Our company was just acquired by one in TX.  We are now in the position of having to keep a local and remote linux (Centos54) file servers synced up.  We have an automated build process that spits out about a 4GB build every night or even more often at times.  This is now being done on the corporate network.  We have local test facilities that use these builds, as well as corporate facilities that need access to our local resources.  It's all getting to be pretty messy.  
>
>We are trying to keep the file servers synced up using rsync.  Unfortunately sometime it takes a while for this huge amount of data to be synced up, or worse, someone makes a change to the local server's files, which gets overwritten on the next rsync.
>
>I was wondering if there
> was a way to create a common file system between both sites (here in MN and TX).  GFS sounds like it might work, but I have not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.  I remember there use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.
>
>Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both networks.  When a file is opened, the network compares the local and remote file systems and the newest version is used.  If the remote is the newest, it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated and the next use will be entirely local.  Am I dreaming?
>
>Anyone have any ideas?
>
>Thanks.
>
> --- 
>Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two
> kinds of people: Those 
>3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
>Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
>(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


      
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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 12 11:56:49 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:56:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100312175649.GZ2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:29:18AM -0800, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> I was wondering if there was a way to create a common file system between both sites (here in MN and TX).  GFS sounds like it might work, but I have not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.  I remember there use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.
> 
> Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both networks.  When a file is opened, the network compares the local and remote file systems and the newest version is used.  If the remote is the newest, it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated and the next use will be entirely local.  Am I dreaming?

Another thing to try is Cache-FS as a front-end to NFS.  A guy from
RedHat did most of the work and they finally got it in mainline a few
releases ago, but it should be in Centos/RedHat already as they were
claiming the customers wanted it.

So, you just dedicate a large partition on the remote site as a cache
and then mount NFS through it.  I'm not sure what kind of latency
you'll get, but the speed of light is what it is.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From adam at askewview.net  Fri Mar 12 13:03:28 2010
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:03:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
Message-ID: <46098.98.240.165.145.1268420608.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>

Andrew,

I've tried I really have and they just don't get it.
Next step is blocking all P2P (except bit torrent) at my router.

--Adam

> It could be argued that if there is malware sitting on your file
> server then you don't need AV for your file server, your roommates
> need some quality time with a clue-by-four. ;-)
>
> --
> Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
> IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>




From gm5729 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 12:43:33 2010
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gm5729)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 12:43:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <673632.20185.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<66026d801003120851q1961a9b7v192187f0f5895b91@mail.gmail.com>
	<673632.20185.qm@web53808.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <66026d801003121043l4e133501nab863774bb970373@mail.gmail.com>

Well I've been through mergers, and I feel your pain. It sounds like
you're the Sys Admin. unfortunately both companies information isn't
magickally going to appear the way they want it. I would still use
those tools and maybe present to your boss/es that you won't have any
down time during business hours in this conversion IF we can do this.
I want to start  with 45 days, maybe 30 of informaton, build that up
so it's production ready. Once that machine/s is ready convert
everyone over to the new servers. Then in a metric that is reasonable
to your boss bring in data in 2-4 week increments until it is all
online. Maybe it's not a matter of getting a new tool/s because it
sounds like you have them. Break the elephant down in bite size chunks
that won't cripple work hours and the conversion can be managed and
hopefully because it is more organized, etc it lowers the bottom line
in some measureable way. Maybe you will get to go shopping for some
new machines and or periphials that weren't around when this system
was orignally designed but would increase reliability, up time, data
integrity, etc

Hey and I could be all wrong in this possible "out of the box" solution.

VP



On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 11:11, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Got them both, as well as CVS.? But that would mean that we'll be building
> on both sites.? We have millions of lines of code.? A build can take hours,
> and we don't have resources to do that on both sides.
>
> Thanks for trying.
>
> ---
> Wayne Johnson,???????????? | There are two kinds of people: Those
> 3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done,"
> Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right,
> (612) 522-7003???????????? | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: gm5729 <gm5729 at gmail.com>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 10:51:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
>
> Sounds like you need GIT or SVN for revision control, and
> accountability/trackability of changes.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 10:29, Wayne Johnson <wdtj at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Our company was just acquired by one in TX.? We are now in the position of
>> having to keep a local and remote linux (Centos54) file servers synced up.
>> We have an automated build process that spits out about a 4GB build every
>> night or even more often at times.? This is now being done on the
>> corporate
>> network.? We have local test facilities that use these builds, as well as
>> corporate facilities that need access to our local resources.? It's all
>> getting to be pretty messy.
>>
>> We are trying to keep the file servers synced up using rsync.
>> Unfortunately
>> sometime it takes a while for this huge amount of data to be synced up, or
>> worse, someone makes a change to the local server's files, which gets
>> overwritten on the next rsync.
>>
>> I was wondering if there was a way to create a common file system between
>> both sites (here in MN and TX).? GFS sounds like it might work, but I have
>> not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.? I remember there
>> use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.
>>
>> Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both
>> networks.? When a file is opened, the network compares the local and
>> remote
>> file systems and the newest version is used.? If the remote is the newest,
>> it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated
>> and the next use will be entirely local.? Am I dreaming?
>>
>> Anyone have any ideas?
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> ---
>> Wayne Johnson,???????????? | There are two kinds of people: Those
>> 3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done,"
>> Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right,
>> (612) 522-7003???????????? | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> --
> If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
> validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
> CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
> to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
> you. Key :? 0xD53A8E1
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 13:02:15 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 13:02:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all:

Again a big thanks to Real-Time for hosting the TCLUG site and
supporting the LUG itself all these years.

I've taken care of the most glaring issues with the TCLUG website.
Many (most? all?) of the broken links have been fixed, many by just
deleting links to long-departed resources.

A number of serious problems remain.  The lack of a relational
database has disabled most of the dynamic aspects of the site.  The
current httpd is rather aged, which is another hindrance to further
development.

JT


From wdtj at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 12 13:25:44 2010
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 11:25:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <20100312175649.GZ2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
	<20100312175649.GZ2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <587726.13968.qm@web53806.mail.re2.yahoo.com>

Cache-FS sounds interesting.  I'll have to check it out.  

 --- 
Wayne Johnson,                         | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.          | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003                         | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis





________________________________
From: Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Fri, March 12, 2010 11:56:49 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:29:18AM -0800, Wayne Johnson wrote:
> I was wondering if there was a way to create a common file system between both sites (here in MN and TX).  GFS sounds like it might work, but I have not found anyone who claims to have done this on Google.  I remember there use to be AFS which worked in a similar fashion.
> 
> Guess I'm hoping to set something up where files will exist on both networks.  When a file is opened, the network compares the local and remote file systems and the newest version is used.  If the remote is the newest, it's transferred to the local as it is used so the local cache is updated and the next use will be entirely local.  Am I dreaming?

Another thing to try is Cache-FS as a front-end to NFS.  A guy from
RedHat did most of the work and they finally got it in mainline a few
releases ago, but it should be in Centos/RedHat already as they were
claiming the customers wanted it.

So, you just dedicate a large partition on the remote site as a cache
and then mount NFS through it.  I'm not sure what kind of latency
you'll get, but the speed of light is what it is.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 
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From gm5729 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 14:11:08 2010
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gm5729)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:11:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <46098.98.240.165.145.1268420608.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
References: <46098.98.240.165.145.1268420608.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
Message-ID: <66026d801003121211v1b753475if86d464de3d990c0@mail.gmail.com>

Censorship of a room-mate situation to me it taboo. The same would be
in a family situation, with the caveat of age appropriateness. Take
the measures on the boxen you control/own and let your room-mates be
your room-mates. You sound like your trying to be their parent or case
worker. Tell them the lines are open, everything is logged, if you do
something illegal and our service gets shut off you will pay the
penalties. As far as their own boxen. They are adults, and if their
boxen get infected rent is still due on time, utilities are still due
on time, etc. Basically, in your minds settle what sort of 'system
administration" you want to give to them. If you decide to charge them
half of what a local shop or Geek Squad would charge. Your time is
valuable, you have work to do, they screwed over their boxen. Deal
with it. Get it in writing as a household addendum, and you could go
so far as getting it notarized so if perchance you get stuck with a
bill you have legal standing to inform the wonderful "3" credit
bureaus.


VP

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 13:03, Adam <adam at askewview.net> wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> I've tried I really have and they just don't get it.
> Next step is blocking all P2P (except bit torrent) at my router.
>
> --Adam
>
>> It could be argued that if there is malware sitting on your file
>> server then you don't need AV for your file server, your roommates
>> need some quality time with a clue-by-four. ;-)
>>
>> --
>> Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
>> IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 16:41:42 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:41:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <46098.98.240.165.145.1268420608.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
References: <46098.98.240.165.145.1268420608.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
Message-ID: <cac45c241003121441v624af7f1qc2679781cb0010d2@mail.gmail.com>

Blocking is too obvious. Throw some QoS on the router so that LimeWire
and the like still work, but transfer files so slowly that they are
useless. Did this to a former roommate who was hogging bandwidth with
P2P, worked great.   ;-)

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com


From adam at askewview.net  Fri Mar 12 17:25:05 2010
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:25:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
Message-ID: <39912.98.240.165.145.1268436305.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>

When I'm working from home this is what I have to do otherwise my voice
connection is horrible.

I'm honestly surprised they haven't hit the 250GB/month limit Comcast
imposes.

I'll look into the clamav suggestion.  I've told them before if they want
it fixed I'll do it for beer.  The number of cases goes up if I have to
fix it more than once :)

--Adam

> Blocking is too obvious. Throw some QoS on the router so that LimeWire
> and the like still work, but transfer files so slowly that they are
> useless. Did this to a former roommate who was hogging bandwidth with
> P2P, worked great.   ;-)
>
> --
> Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
> IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>




From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 12 21:32:58 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:32:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <39912.98.240.165.145.1268436305.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
References: <39912.98.240.165.145.1268436305.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003122131370.21053@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 12 Mar 2010, Adam wrote:

> I'm honestly surprised they haven't hit the 250GB/month limit Comcast 
> imposes.


Just curious so I did the math -- that would be an average of about 750 
kbps for 24 hours per day times 31 days.

Mike


From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Mar 12 21:45:01 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:45:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Anti-virus
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003122131370.21053@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <39912.98.240.165.145.1268436305.squirrel@mail.askewview.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003122131370.21053@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <B806B2F8-2908-4E0C-B732-C969C060063A@me.com>

That's not a "limit" but a "monitor level"...


On Mar 12, 2010, at 9:32 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Fri, 12 Mar 2010, Adam wrote:
>
>> I'm honestly surprised they haven't hit the 250GB/month limit Comcast
>> imposes.
>
>
> Just curious so I did the math -- that would be an average of about  
> 750
> kbps for 24 hours per day times 31 days.
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Fri Mar 12 22:02:29 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:02:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] *Saturday*
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003122002q19c41aaapf1eb154dfcecd529@mail.gmail.com>

anyone want to offer a ride from snelling/como to edina executive plaza
tomorrow morning?
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Mar 13 19:37:34 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:37:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] nano syntax highlighting for R
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003131936590.21053@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

FYI...


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:34:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Miller
To: R-Help List <r-help at stat.math.ethz.ch>
Subject: nano syntax highlighting for R

Nano is Free Software and a nice intro text editor.  It also starts up 
very quickly and has good syntax highlighting functionality, so it makes a 
nice file viewer.  The syntax highlighting is configured in the ~/.nanorc 
file.  See the attached code and screenshot.

I was looking for good nano syntax highlighting code for R when I found by 
Stephen Haptonstahl's code here:

http://srh.ucdavis.edu/drupal/node/20

He is happy for others to use the code, modify it and distribute it.  My 
edited version of his code is attached.  To use it, just append it to your 
~/.nanorc file.  There's also a systemwide way to use it, but I don't know 
offhand.  To use nano in a view-only mode, just use the -v option to turn 
off editing functionality:

nano -v file.R

The .R file extension will cause Nano to use the R syntax highlighting, 
but it can also be triggered with the -Y option:

nano -v -Y R file.whatever

Of course, nano also is an editor, so just drop the -v option if you want 
to edit a file.

The screenshot looks pretty nice now (I'm using xterm with white on black 
and haven't tested with black on white), but I'm sure it can be improved 
further. I don't have time to work on it much now, but maybe someone else 
will want to pick it up.

Best,
Mike
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Mar 13 19:40:28 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 19:40:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] nano syntax highlighting for Octave
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003131938480.21053@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

FYI...


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 16:44:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Miller
To: Help-Octave List <help at octave.org>
Subject: Re: nano syntax highlighting for Octave?

On Sat, 13 Mar 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Mar 2010, Ben Abbott wrote:
> 
>> On Wednesday, March 10, 2010, at 02:47PM, "Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm really more of an Emacs guy, but for students I recommend Nano to 
>>> get them started.  I've been working on getting the syntax 
>>> highlighting to work for various kinds of scripts.  I found something 
>>> for R and modified it to produce what you see below (don't blame 
>>> Haptonstahl if anything is broken in that code because it might be my 
>>> fault).  I think it works fairly well but there is definitely room for 
>>> improvement.
>>> 
>>> Of course I'd like some nano syntax highlighting code for Octave 
>>> and/or MATLAB if anybody out here has worked on that.  Thanks in 
>>> advance.
>> 
>> I haven't tried it, but a Google turned this link up.
>>
>>    http://savannah.gnu.org/patch/?6798
> 
> 
> Thanks, Ben.  I'm sure that will help.  I think I was searching too much 
> for Octave and not enough for MATLAB.
> 
> I'll edit that file and send it to the list.


I played around a little with the code I found at the URL above and 
created the attached text file.  To use it, just append it to your 
~/.nanorc file.  There's also a systemwide way to use it, but I don't know 
offhand.  Also see the attached screenshot PNG file.

It looks nice now (I'm using xterm with white on black and haven't tested 
with black on white), but I know it is still a little messed up -- I can 
see that some functions are repeated and I'm sure others are missing.  I 
don't have time to work on it much now.  I don't know how to retrieve 
lists of different types of functions, or even if there is a way to do 
that.

Nano is Free Software.  It is pretty lightweight and useful as a viewer. 
Just use the -v option to turn off editing functionality:

nano -v file.m

Best,
Mike
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From augiedoggy1976 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 14 20:38:22 2010
From: augiedoggy1976 at gmail.com (august krumm)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 20:38:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu server
Message-ID: <727287771003141838g63072befg1b198dd842a736c8@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I'm new to linux and new to ubuntu server.  Also new to this mailing list.
 Has anyone ever used an app called Jinzora? I'm having an issue with the
removal of files.  Even though I've removed the files from my server, the
titles are still on the Jinzora page and screwing things up for me.

If anyone can help, please email or yahoo me at august_k_k

greatly appreciated

August
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From r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 14 21:02:13 2010
From: r_a_wilkinson at yahoo.com (Robert)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:02:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu Server
Message-ID: <1268618533.19179.7.camel@robert>

Will this help?


http://en.jinzorahelp.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4325



From erikerik at gmail.com  Sun Mar 14 22:06:38 2010
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 22:06:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu server
In-Reply-To: <727287771003141838g63072befg1b198dd842a736c8@mail.gmail.com>
References: <727287771003141838g63072befg1b198dd842a736c8@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f1003142006u1cd7241aj962b2a266ef84a2d@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 8:38 PM, august krumm <augiedoggy1976 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello,
> I'm new to linux and new to ubuntu server. ?Also new to this mailing list.
> ?Has anyone ever used an app called Jinzora? I'm having an issue with the
> removal of files. ?Even though I've removed the files from my server, the
> titles are still on the Jinzora page and screwing things up for me.
> If anyone can help, please email or yahoo me at august_k_k
> greatly appreciated

These entries are most likely just being pulled out of the mysql
database you set up for Jinzora. Even though the files have been
removed, the database entries still remain. I'm not sure if Jinzora
has an "approved" way of clearing these cached entries - they very
well may, and you should probably search their documentation for this.
If you just want to start over with the installation, you can just
drop the mysql database you created, either using the mysql
command-line app or phpmyadmin.

-Erik

-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Mar 15 14:15:01 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:15:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] GFS over a WAN
In-Reply-To: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>;
	from wdtj@yahoo.com on Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 08:29:18AM -0800
References: <565300.48394.qm@web53805.mail.re2.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20100315141501.V22107@real-time.com>

On 03/12 08:29 , Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Our company was just acquired by one in TX.  We are now in the position of
> having to keep a local and remote linux (Centos54) file servers synced up.

I have no experience with this tool, but might Unison solve your problem?

http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Mon Mar 15 17:51:26 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:51:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] bad smell
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003151551y19d4af41r2a57e3d1fb6210c5@mail.gmail.com>

drat, power supply fan went, you know the bad smell, mobo didn't survive
either.  bad luck.  i need a box pronto, begged, borrowed, or bought cheap,
nothing special, as long as i can stack it with 768mb ram or better.  any
offers?  where does one go for used?  i hate to patronize walmart, but a
$300 laptop sounds tempting.  saw good remarks about asus here a few weeks
back.  current suggestions?
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From dniesen at gmail.com  Mon Mar 15 19:18:24 2010
From: dniesen at gmail.com (Donovan Niesen)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 19:18:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] bad smell
Message-ID: <4b9ece50.1708c00a.284c.1bfd@mx.google.com>

http://www.computermegamall.com Does off-lease Dell Optiplex desktops for about $200.  Located next door to me by UofM East Bank.  Better than Craigslist as he provides 90 day warranty.  He usually has more than just what's listed on the site, too.
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From florin at iucha.net  Mon Mar 15 20:55:59 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:55:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] bad smell
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003151551y19d4af41r2a57e3d1fb6210c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <429c5ec21003151551y19d4af41r2a57e3d1fb6210c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100316015558.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 05:51:26PM -0500, greg wm wrote:
> drat, power supply fan went, you know the bad smell, mobo didn't survive
> either.  bad luck.  i need a box pronto, begged, borrowed, or bought cheap,
> nothing special, as long as i can stack it with 768mb ram or better.  any
> offers?  where does one go for used?  i hate to patronize walmart, but a
> $300 laptop sounds tempting.  saw good remarks about asus here a few weeks
> back.  current suggestions?

   http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&Description=intel%20d510&bop=And&ActiveSearchResult=True&Order=PRICE

   $75 for cpu/mobo (includes video) combo.  Just add RAM (if the old one
   is toast) and a new PSU.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Mar 15 21:10:28 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:10:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] bad smell
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003151551y19d4af41r2a57e3d1fb6210c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <429c5ec21003151551y19d4af41r2a57e3d1fb6210c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003152108100.21053@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010, greg wm wrote:

> drat, power supply fan went, you know the bad smell, mobo didn't survive 
> either.  bad luck.  i need a box pronto, begged, borrowed, or bought 
> cheap, nothing special, as long as i can stack it with 768mb ram or 
> better.  any offers?  where does one go for used?  i hate to patronize 
> walmart, but a $300 laptop sounds tempting.  saw good remarks about asus 
> here a few weeks back.  current suggestions?


See info below that I sent to a friend.  I like the Asus EeePC netbook 
quite a lot.  It's running great.  The one problem I had was with the 
power supply (see below), but this was resolved -- it sometimes has to be 
reset; just unplug it from the wall for a couple of minutes and then plug 
it back in.

Mike


Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:05:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Mike Miller
Subject: Asus EeePC

In case you are interested, this is what I ordered from Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/ASUS-1005HA-PU1X-BU-10-1-Inch-Blue-Netbook/dp/tech-data/B002DYIXMS/
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-CT25664AC667-200-Pin-SODIMM-Laptop/dp/B000F7QRTG

With free S/H and the 2GB RAM it was slightly less than $400.

I installed the Ubuntu Netbook Remix, 9.10, and I like it a lot so far. It 
is very easy to work with.  It also is easy to install, but only after you 
know how.  There is no CD or DVD drive on the netbook so you have to boot 
from a USB stick and you have to prepare the USB stick properly. There is 
nothing hard about doing it but it is hard to find out exactly what to do. 
Now that I know, if you get one of these and want Ubuntu on it, I could do 
it in less than 1 hour of my time.

One problem with this machine:  The AC adapter spontaneously stopped 
working.  I then banged it on the table to bring it back to life and that 
worked.  I see on the web that many people have had this problem with the 
adapter.  I'm going to ask Amazon to send me another adapter.

Mike


From josh at joshwelch.com  Mon Mar 15 21:52:31 2010
From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch)
Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 21:52:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] bad smell
In-Reply-To: <4b9ece50.1708c00a.284c.1bfd@mx.google.com>
References: <4b9ece50.1708c00a.284c.1bfd@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <cb8bd0d61003151952u24a3ad2aq1bd1a4207a39d7a8@mail.gmail.com>

Old company I worked for used to buy a lot of hardware from this
outfit for our POS terminals. They always supplied pretty decent
quality hardware and stood behind their stuff pretty well.

Josh

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:18 PM, Donovan Niesen <dniesen at gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.computermegamall.com Does off-lease Dell Optiplex desktops for
> about $200. Located next door to me by UofM East Bank. Better than
> Craigslist as he provides 90 day warranty. He usually has more than just
> what's listed on the site, too.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


From clay at fandre.com  Tue Mar 16 00:19:03 2010
From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 00:19:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>

So what happened to the MySQL database? RT get rid of it?

On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 2:02 PM, John Trammell <johntrammell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all:
>
> Again a big thanks to Real-Time for hosting the TCLUG site and
> supporting the LUG itself all these years.
>
> I've taken care of the most glaring issues with the TCLUG website.
> Many (most? all?) of the broken links have been fixed, many by just
> deleting links to long-departed resources.
>
> A number of serious problems remain. ?The lack of a relational
> database has disabled most of the dynamic aspects of the site. ?The
> current httpd is rather aged, which is another hindrance to further
> development.
>
> JT
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar 16 08:46:56 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 08:46:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>;
	from clay@fandre.com on Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 12:19:03AM -0500
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>

On 03/16 12:19 , Clay Fandre wrote:
> So what happened to the MySQL database? RT get rid of it?

The machine died a year ago. I discussed it at the time; but nothing got
done about it.

Thanks much John for fixing up that site!

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From clay at fandre.com  Tue Mar 16 15:03:20 2010
From: clay at fandre.com (Clay Fandre)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:03:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, sorry I missed it. Is there a replacement DB? It's easy enough to
change the code.

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:46 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
<chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> On 03/16 12:19 , Clay Fandre wrote:
>> So what happened to the MySQL database? RT get rid of it?
>
> The machine died a year ago. I discussed it at the time; but nothing got
> done about it.
>
> Thanks much John for fixing up that site!
>
> --
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 16 20:37:02 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 20:37:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
Message-ID: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>

I am in network development at brown college and I am wondering where to
intern at.
I would like to work in a Linux friendly environment.
My internship would start in about a years time.
Does anyone have any recommendations ?
Thanks, Ron
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From kc0iog at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 08:33:30 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:33:30 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2c6699da1003170633kd28a2a8se5be31e15e5fafec@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:37 PM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am in network development at brown college and I am wondering where to
> intern at.

Completely off the subject, is that a mandated internship?  I'm glad
to see colleges are still doing the internship programs.  My former
tech college dropped their mandated intership and I think it was a
terrible move on their part.

> I would like to work in a Linux friendly environment.
> My internship would start in about a years time.
> Does anyone have any recommendations ?

Build a resume, post it to TCLUG jobs and Craigslist.  Are you
requiring a paid internship or is an unpaid OK?  Also, head on over to
Robert Half, get your resume on file and meet with one of their
counselors.  They'll have you take some skills tests and help you
polish your resume, and of course do some headhunting for you.

Brian


From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 13:55:59 2010
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:55:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
Message-ID: <ddf6f4ca1003171155v254332a0l78f94532d9a52787@mail.gmail.com>

 >On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:37 PM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I would like to work in a Linux friendly environment.
>> My internship would start in about a years time.
>> Does anyone have any recommendations ?
>

I'd be wary of Robert Half.  Dice.com is helpful as far as finding
technical work.  I suggest maintaining high standards when
searching for an internship.  Some companies today support
various forms of sexual immorality.


-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Mar 17 14:13:14 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:13:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>;
	from clay@fandre.com on Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 02:03:20PM -0600
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>
	<dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100317141314.H23444@real-time.com>

On 03/16 02:03 , Clay Fandre wrote:
> Oh, sorry I missed it. Is there a replacement DB? It's easy enough to
> change the code.

Policy these days is that each client should have it's own virtual machine,
with its own database server. www.tclug.org is still on an ancient legacy
'machine' (really just another virtualhost right now) which doesn't have a
database. 

Considering how www.mn-linux.org/www.tclug.org was broken for a year and no
one seemed to notice or complain; this doesn't give Real-Time a big
incentive to move TCLUG to a new webserver with a database. Please, show me
that I'm wrong and there is some interest in reviving the TCLUG website...
and more than just talk, I want to see real action (more than just the
admirable Mr. Trammel stepping up).

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 15:28:08 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:28:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <20100317141314.H23444@real-time.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>
	<dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100317141314.H23444@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe1003171328n5e04d926x51488553ce3c4e96@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be interested in reviving the TCLUG website.  If Real-Time can
provide a VM with the basics, I'd set up a Drupal instance.

J


From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Mar 17 15:38:28 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:38:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe1003171328n5e04d926x51488553ce3c4e96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>
	<dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100317141314.H23444@real-time.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003171328n5e04d926x51488553ce3c4e96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00AC1F1B-E3DC-4216-835F-AA6E13A6CF07@me.com>

If I ever have anything worthy of contributing I would do it.


On Mar 17, 2010, at 3:28 PM, John Trammell wrote:

> I'd be interested in reviving the TCLUG website.  If Real-Time can
> provide a VM with the basics, I'd set up a Drupal instance.
>
> J
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From drue at therub.org  Wed Mar 17 15:53:42 2010
From: drue at therub.org (Dan Rue)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 15:53:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe1003171328n5e04d926x51488553ce3c4e96@mail.gmail.com>
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>
	<dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100317141314.H23444@real-time.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003171328n5e04d926x51488553ce3c4e96@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100317205342.GC19380@therub.org>

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 03:28:08PM -0500, John Trammell wrote:
> I'd be interested in reviving the TCLUG website.  If Real-Time can
> provide a VM with the basics, I'd set up a Drupal instance.

I'm opposed to a dynamic site.  Here's why: 

- It'll just fall out of date immediately and be either a security risk
  or a pathetic website or both (for instance check out tcphp.org's
  sweet drupal site!).
- The mailing list is the heart of tclug.  Trying to move that to the
  web fails every time (i.e. forums).  
- Our strength is in locality, not any intrinsic knowledge or benefit.
  That is, we're not a resource for linux - there's many better
  resources on the internet.  We're a local club.  
- tclug.org isn't missing technology.  If we needed a fully featured
  dynamic website, we'd already have it.  The fact that nobody has cared
  enough to notice and/or fix the mysql connection for N years is proof.

But that doesn't mean we can't have a nice site!  We just have to do it
with an honest look at what we are and what we need.

I suggest (albeit without being willing to assist with it :), a static
site that simply introduces our group and provides links to more
information (mailing list, facebook group, linkedin group, etc).  Use
those other social tools to provide member directories and dynamic
content.  

For instance, you can have a static site, but include a twitter result
for the search phrase #tclug (or other keywords).  This way it has fresh
content, but isn't a security risk, requires no maintenance, and doesn't
immediately fall out of date.

Dan


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 16:06:31 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:06:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <ddf6f4ca1003171155v254332a0l78f94532d9a52787@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ddf6f4ca1003171155v254332a0l78f94532d9a52787@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003171605570.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Brian Wood wrote:

> Some companies today support various forms of sexual immorality.


What does that mean?

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 16:18:43 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:18:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <20100317205342.GC19380@therub.org>
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>
	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>
	<dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100317141314.H23444@real-time.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003171328n5e04d926x51488553ce3c4e96@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100317205342.GC19380@therub.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003171610240.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Dan Rue wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 03:28:08PM -0500, John Trammell wrote:

>> I'd be interested in reviving the TCLUG website.  If Real-Time can 
>> provide a VM with the basics, I'd set up a Drupal instance.
>
> I'm opposed to a dynamic site.  Here's why:
>
> - It'll just fall out of date immediately and be either a security risk
>  or a pathetic website or both (for instance check out tcphp.org's
>  sweet drupal site!).

Is it possible to configure it so that items are entered with expiration 
dates after which they will not appear, and when nothing has been 
submitted, that hasn't expired, some other message is shown?


> - The mailing list is the heart of tclug.  Trying to move that to the
>  web fails every time (i.e. forums).

I like the list the way it is except that I don't think we have a web 
archive -- am I wrong?  That would be a worthwhile project.  I've used 
MHonArc to make archives.  That works pretty well, and I'd be willing to 
work on that for TCLUG.  The thing I'm not as good at is setting up search 
for the web archive, but maybe someone else will have some ideas.


> - tclug.org isn't missing technology.  If we needed a fully featured
>  dynamic website, we'd already have it.  The fact that nobody has cared
>  enough to notice and/or fix the mysql connection for N years is proof.

I've noticed that it was out of date, and I didn't like it, but I didn't 
want to fix it or come across as a complainer, so I didn't say anything. 
I've seen this with other LUGs that focus on the email list and don't have 
a lot of meetings.  I don't think your argument is quite right, though. 
It's not a question of *needing* a dynamic site.  If someone wants to 
build one, then why not let that person build one.  Maybe it will be nice, 
we'll like it, we'll use it, and we'll even have a meeting.  Who knows? 
I don't want to discourage people.


> But that doesn't mean we can't have a nice site!  We just have to do it 
> with an honest look at what we are and what we need.
>
> I suggest (albeit without being willing to assist with it :), a static 
> site that simply introduces our group and provides links to more 
> information (mailing list, facebook group, linkedin group, etc).  Use 
> those other social tools to provide member directories and dynamic 
> content.
>
> For instance, you can have a static site, but include a twitter result 
> for the search phrase #tclug (or other keywords).  This way it has fresh 
> content, but isn't a security risk, requires no maintenance, and doesn't 
> immediately fall out of date.

OK.  You don't oppose having dynamic content, then, but you don't want it 
on the front page of the site.

Mike


From bijoy.anose at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 16:38:22 2010
From: bijoy.anose at gmail.com (Bijoy Anose)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:38:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003171605570.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <ddf6f4ca1003171155v254332a0l78f94532d9a52787@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003171605570.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <50ba6ee41003171438y535cfa8av2db6ead1df6b45db@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Brian Wood wrote:
>
>> Some companies today support various forms of sexual immorality.
>
>
> What does that mean?
>
> Mike

More importantly, which companies?


From johntrammell at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 16:43:53 2010
From: johntrammell at gmail.com (John Trammell)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 16:43:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <50ba6ee41003171438y535cfa8av2db6ead1df6b45db@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ddf6f4ca1003171155v254332a0l78f94532d9a52787@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003171605570.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<50ba6ee41003171438y535cfa8av2db6ead1df6b45db@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68dbb6fe1003171443k59f81673wd280dc62fa5d7b@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Bijoy Anose <bijoy.anose at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Brian Wood wrote:
>>
>>> Some companies today support various forms of sexual immorality.
>>
>>
>> What does that mean?
>>
>> Mike
>
> More importantly, which companies?

And are they hiring?


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Wed Mar 17 18:54:45 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:54:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
Message-ID: <dc0cnfyhhgg2f4r0rmlytayh.1268870046967@email.android.com>

I think you can find the web archiv

Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Dan Rue wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 03:28:08PM -0500, John Trammell wrote:
>
>>> I'd be interested in reviving the TCLUG website.  If Real-Time can 
>>> provide a VM with the basics, I'd set up a Drupal instance.
>>
>> I'm opposed to a dynamic site.  Here's why:
>>
>> - It'll just fall out of date immediately and be either a security risk
>>  or a pathetic website or both (for instance check out tcphp.org's
>>  sweet drupal site!).
>
>Is it possible to configure it so that items are entered with expiration 
>dates after which they will not appear, and when nothing has been 
>submitted, that hasn't expired, some other message is shown?
>
>
>> - The mailing list is the heart of tclug.  Trying to move that to the
>>  web fails every time (i.e. forums).
>
>I like the list the way it is except that I don't think we have a web 
>archive -- am I wrong?  That would be a worthwhile project.  I've used 
>MHonArc to make archives.  That works pretty well, and I'd be willing to 
>work on that for TCLUG.  The thing I'm not as good at is setting up search 
>for the web archive, but maybe someone else will have some ideas.
>
>
>> - tclug.org isn't missing technology.  If we needed a fully featured
>>  dynamic website, we'd already have it.  The fact that nobody has cared
>>  enough to notice and/or fix the mysql connection for N years is proof.
>
>I've noticed that it was out of date, and I didn't like it, but I didn't 
>want to fix it or come across as a complainer, so I didn't say anything. 
>I've seen this with other LUGs that focus on the email list and don't have 
>a lot of meetings.  I don't think your argument is quite right, though. 
>It's not a question of *needing* a dynamic site.  If someone wants to 
>build one, then why not let that person build one.  Maybe it will be nice, 
>we'll like it, we'll use it, and we'll even have a meeting.  Who knows? 
>I don't want to discourage people.
>
>
>> But that doesn't mean we can't have a nice site!  We just have to do it 
>> with an honest look at what we are and what we need.
>>
>> I suggest (albeit without being willing to assist with it :), a static 
>> site that simply introduces our group and provides links to more 
>> information (mailing list, facebook group, linkedin group, etc).  Use 
>> those other social tools to provide member directories and dynamic 
>> content.
>>
>> For instance, you can have a static site, but include a twitter result 
>> for the search phrase #tclug (or other keywords).  This way it has fresh 
>> content, but isn't a security risk, requires no maintenance, and doesn't 
>> immediately fall out of date.
>
>OK.  You don't oppose having dynamic content, then, but you don't want it 
>on the front page of the site.
>
>Mike
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Wed Mar 17 18:59:29 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:59:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
Message-ID: <tygav1e0eaga2cpwhrpmf3kc.1268870369310@email.android.com>

Sorry about the first message attempt.  Hit the wrong button on my phone...

You can find the web archive for the mailing list here: http://archives.mn-linux.org/tclug-list/

It is linked on the TCLUG site. (That's how I found it.)

-Adam

Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Dan Rue wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 03:28:08PM -0500, John Trammell wrote:
>
>>> I'd be interested in reviving the TCLUG website.  If Real-Time can 
>>> provide a VM with the basics, I'd set up a Drupal instance.
>>
>> I'm opposed to a dynamic site.  Here's why:
>>
>> - It'll just fall out of date immediately and be either a security risk
>>  or a pathetic website or both (for instance check out tcphp.org's
>>  sweet drupal site!).
>
>Is it possible to configure it so that items are entered with expiration 
>dates after which they will not appear, and when nothing has been 
>submitted, that hasn't expired, some other message is shown?
>
>
>> - The mailing list is the heart of tclug.  Trying to move that to the
>>  web fails every time (i.e. forums).
>
>I like the list the way it is except that I don't think we have a web 
>archive -- am I wrong?  That would be a worthwhile project.  I've used 
>MHonArc to make archives.  That works pretty well, and I'd be willing to 
>work on that for TCLUG.  The thing I'm not as good at is setting up search 
>for the web archive, but maybe someone else will have some ideas.
>
>
>> - tclug.org isn't missing technology.  If we needed a fully featured
>>  dynamic website, we'd already have it.  The fact that nobody has cared
>>  enough to notice and/or fix the mysql connection for N years is proof.
>
>I've noticed that it was out of date, and I didn't like it, but I didn't 
>want to fix it or come across as a complainer, so I didn't say anything. 
>I've seen this with other LUGs that focus on the email list and don't have 
>a lot of meetings.  I don't think your argument is quite right, though. 
>It's not a question of *needing* a dynamic site.  If someone wants to 
>build one, then why not let that person build one.  Maybe it will be nice, 
>we'll like it, we'll use it, and we'll even have a meeting.  Who knows? 
>I don't want to discourage people.
>
>
>> But that doesn't mean we can't have a nice site!  We just have to do it 
>> with an honest look at what we are and what we need.
>>
>> I suggest (albeit without being willing to assist with it :), a static 
>> site that simply introduces our group and provides links to more 
>> information (mailing list, facebook group, linkedin group, etc).  Use 
>> those other social tools to provide member directories and dynamic 
>> content.
>>
>> For instance, you can have a static site, but include a twitter result 
>> for the search phrase #tclug (or other keywords).  This way it has fresh 
>> content, but isn't a security risk, requires no maintenance, and doesn't 
>> immediately fall out of date.
>
>OK.  You don't oppose having dynamic content, then, but you don't want it 
>on the front page of the site.
>
>Mike
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 17 21:44:09 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:44:09 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63,
	Issue 38 OT college internship.
Message-ID: <25f02f41003171944h6093d934wbbf0b0fe549c1b78@mail.gmail.com>

Ok. I would not make a sexually immoral workplace my choice to intern. That
would go against my code as a soldier and would dishonor myself and my
school.
I ultimately would like to work in a python scripting friendly environment,
I do use bash as well, but prefer python.
If there are any python loving network admins out there, I am awaiting info
about my gi bill coverage for an internship but I think I will be able to
work for free.
If anyone has advice for me I welcome input from anyone.


Thank You Brian for your time and information, Ron Johnson.
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From jolexa at jolexa.net  Wed Mar 17 22:03:32 2010
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 22:03:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <68dbb6fe1003171443k59f81673wd280dc62fa5d7b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <ddf6f4ca1003171155v254332a0l78f94532d9a52787@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003171605570.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<50ba6ee41003171438y535cfa8av2db6ead1df6b45db@mail.gmail.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003171443k59f81673wd280dc62fa5d7b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BA19804.4060304@jolexa.net>

John Trammell wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Bijoy Anose <bijoy.anose at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Brian Wood wrote:
>>>
>>>> Some companies today support various forms of sexual immorality.
>>>
>>> What does that mean?
>>>
>>> Mike
>> More importantly, which companies?
> 
> And are they hiring?

First link on google: http://www.libchrist.com/bible/immoral.html

Yikes, I don't want to work for #1...my eyes!


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 00:58:27 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 00:58:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f1003172258w13abd732pfffd3cabc28bbdd5@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:37 PM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I am in network development at brown college and I am wondering where to
> intern at.
> I would like to work in a Linux friendly environment.
> My internship would start in about a years time.
> Does anyone have any recommendations ?

a)  If your college has a placement office, ask them if they can help you.
b)  Word of mouth is huge in IT right now - keep asking places like
here and see if you run into someone who needs you.
c)  Keep an eye out in non-traditional places.  Sure, Monster and the
newspapers have listings, but not much.  Dice is good since it narrows
down to the industry, although even there a lot of people aren't
bothering to post positions.  I actually found the posting for my
current position on Craigslist.

Good luck!

 - Tony Yarusso


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 01:18:50 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 01:18:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <4BA19804.4060304@jolexa.net>
References: <ddf6f4ca1003171155v254332a0l78f94532d9a52787@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003171605570.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<50ba6ee41003171438y535cfa8av2db6ead1df6b45db@mail.gmail.com>
	<68dbb6fe1003171443k59f81673wd280dc62fa5d7b@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BA19804.4060304@jolexa.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003180116520.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Jeremy Olexa wrote:

> John Trammell wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Bijoy Anose <bijoy.anose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 17 Mar 2010, Brian Wood wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Some companies today support various forms of sexual immorality.
>>>>
>>>> What does that mean?
>>>>
>>>> Mike
>>> More importantly, which companies?
>>
>> And are they hiring?
>
> First link on google: http://www.libchrist.com/bible/immoral.html
>
> Yikes, I don't want to work for #1...my eyes!


In cause you were trying to answer my question -- I wasn't asking what 
sexual immorality means, I was asking what he means by his statement that 
companies are supporting it.  What are these companies doing?  Orgy 
Fridays?  What kinds of support are they offering for sexual immorality?

Mike


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Mar 18 07:51:13 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:51:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <254fef0f1003172258w13abd732pfffd3cabc28bbdd5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
	<254fef0f1003172258w13abd732pfffd3cabc28bbdd5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BF96443C-D81E-475B-BDCE-2180CD592814@me.com>

Brown's placement was, when I was there, sad. They promised leads and  
jobs and I got 1 lead and not called again for 6 months... until they  
brought out an associate's version of my education and wanted me to  
spend another $10,000. I said no, documented the follow-up calls and  
have gotten them to cease with the threat of a lawsuit.

But that's neither here nor there. And that was in the last decade, yes.

b) is the way to go, IMHO.

--
Ryan

On Mar 18, 2010, at 12:58 AM, Tony Yarusso wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:37 PM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am in network development at brown college and I am wondering  
>> where to
>> intern at.
>> I would like to work in a Linux friendly environment.
>> My internship would start in about a years time.
>> Does anyone have any recommendations ?
>
> a)  If your college has a placement office, ask them if they can  
> help you.
> b)  Word of mouth is huge in IT right now - keep asking places like
> here and see if you run into someone who needs you.
> c)  Keep an eye out in non-traditional places.  Sure, Monster and the
> newspapers have listings, but not much.  Dice is good since it narrows
> down to the industry, although even there a lot of people aren't
> bothering to post positions.  I actually found the posting for my
> current position on Craigslist.
>
> Good luck!
>
> - Tony Yarusso
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From josh at joshwelch.com  Thu Mar 18 07:20:11 2010
From: josh at joshwelch.com (Josh Welch)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:20:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <254fef0f1003172258w13abd732pfffd3cabc28bbdd5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
	<254fef0f1003172258w13abd732pfffd3cabc28bbdd5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cb8bd0d61003180520q3c8f6333k2944d616d9bd8dc7@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> a) ?If your college has a placement office, ask them if they can help you.
> b) ?Word of mouth is huge in IT right now - keep asking places like
> here and see if you run into someone who needs you.
> c) ?Keep an eye out in non-traditional places. ?Sure, Monster and the
> newspapers have listings, but not much. ?Dice is good since it narrows
> down to the industry, although even there a lot of people aren't
> bothering to post positions. ?I actually found the posting for my
> current position on Craigslist.
>
> Good luck!
>
> ?- Tony Yarusso
>

Ditto on Craigslist, they actually seem to have a pretty good number
of tech jobs posted there. My current position was also the result of
a Craigslist posting.

I don't see any real issues with Robert Half, they're a fairly
reputable recruiting firm. They are recruiters and as such are a bit
slimy to deal with, but I've dealt with much worse than them.

Josh


From mfunger at arbita.net  Thu Mar 18 09:47:25 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew F. Unger)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:47:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <cb8bd0d61003180520q3c8f6333k2944d616d9bd8dc7@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com><254fef0f1003172258w13abd732pfffd3cabc28bbdd5@mail.gmail.com>
	<cb8bd0d61003180520q3c8f6333k2944d616d9bd8dc7@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011390A3@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>

I work for an HR/Recruiting Marketing firm, and there's a big slowdown right now (duh). You might not get what you want to do, but anything is better than nothing if you're desperate.
Some suggestions: -1)make your resume shine -2)start working LinkedIn (I get job offers 2-3 times/week from there) -3)start talking to Robert Half and the other big recruiters (they may not actually land you a gig, but they MIGHT help you get in doors and practice your interviewing skills as well as help you polish your resume) -4)clean up Facebook/Myspace (yes, employers DO search these things to find out more about you) -5)Google yourself and see what comes up (if it isn't good, do your best to make it so).
I also found my current position on Craigslist, so give it a whirl, just don't expect much.
Good luck!
Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Josh Welch
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:20 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] College internship

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> a) ?If your college has a placement office, ask them if they can help you.
> b) ?Word of mouth is huge in IT right now - keep asking places like
> here and see if you run into someone who needs you.
> c) ?Keep an eye out in non-traditional places. ?Sure, Monster and the
> newspapers have listings, but not much. ?Dice is good since it narrows
> down to the industry, although even there a lot of people aren't
> bothering to post positions. ?I actually found the posting for my
> current position on Craigslist.
>
> Good luck!
>
> ?- Tony Yarusso
>

Ditto on Craigslist, they actually seem to have a pretty good number
of tech jobs posted there. My current position was also the result of
a Craigslist posting.

I don't see any real issues with Robert Half, they're a fairly
reputable recruiting firm. They are recruiters and as such are a bit
slimy to deal with, but I've dealt with much worse than them.

Josh

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mfunger at arbita.net  Thu Mar 18 09:56:52 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew F. Unger)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 09:56:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011390A3@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
References: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com><254fef0f1003172258w13abd732pfffd3cabc28bbdd5@mail.gmail.com><cb8bd0d61003180520q3c8f6333k2944d616d9bd8dc7@mail.gmail.com>
	<F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011390A3@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
Message-ID: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011390C0@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>

One last thing:
Check out indeed.com. It's a pretty good aggregator of all kinds of job boards.

Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Matthew F. Unger
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:47 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] College internship

I work for an HR/Recruiting Marketing firm, and there's a big slowdown right now (duh). You might not get what you want to do, but anything is better than nothing if you're desperate.
Some suggestions: -1)make your resume shine -2)start working LinkedIn (I get job offers 2-3 times/week from there) -3)start talking to Robert Half and the other big recruiters (they may not actually land you a gig, but they MIGHT help you get in doors and practice your interviewing skills as well as help you polish your resume) -4)clean up Facebook/Myspace (yes, employers DO search these things to find out more about you) -5)Google yourself and see what comes up (if it isn't good, do your best to make it so).
I also found my current position on Craigslist, so give it a whirl, just don't expect much.
Good luck!
Matt

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Josh Welch
Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:20 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] College internship

On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 12:58 AM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> a) ?If your college has a placement office, ask them if they can help you.
> b) ?Word of mouth is huge in IT right now - keep asking places like
> here and see if you run into someone who needs you.
> c) ?Keep an eye out in non-traditional places. ?Sure, Monster and the
> newspapers have listings, but not much. ?Dice is good since it narrows
> down to the industry, although even there a lot of people aren't
> bothering to post positions. ?I actually found the posting for my
> current position on Craigslist.
>
> Good luck!
>
> ?- Tony Yarusso
>

Ditto on Craigslist, they actually seem to have a pretty good number
of tech jobs posted there. My current position was also the result of
a Craigslist posting.

I don't see any real issues with Robert Half, they're a fairly
reputable recruiting firm. They are recruiters and as such are a bit
slimy to deal with, but I've dealt with much worse than them.

Josh

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Mar 18 10:20:41 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:20:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003161837u6c3dfdaerf71392d2bfb9496f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003180820n457fe067saaf940f01e54d988@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:37 PM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am in network development at brown college and I am wondering where to
> intern at.
> I would like to work in a Linux friendly environment.
> My internship would start in about a years time.
> Does anyone have any recommendations ?
> Thanks, Ron
>

A lot of the recommendations given here look promising.  I'll add one other
thought - a lot of the big companies (i.e., IBM, Intel, Microsoft, etc...)
have structured student intern programs and have some number of internships
every year.  Often times these are actually posted on their job boards.
They start to show up in February March, and are filled by May, as for three
or nine-month internships they almost always start in late spring.  You can
browse the internships available and submit your resume for consideration.
You've nothing to lose, and getting credentials on your resume like that can
open doors down the road.

-Rob
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Mar 18 13:13:04 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 13:13:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] College internship
In-Reply-To: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011390C0@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLKEPDDAAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Matthew F. Unger
> Sent: Thursday, March 18, 2010 9:57 AM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] College internship
>
>
> One last thing:
> Check out indeed.com. It's a pretty good aggregator of all kinds of job boards.

Indeed.com seldom misses showing ANY job posted, AND one search engine and syntax covers all other job boards, etc.  It's like
Google for jobs, and allows saving a bunch so one can quickly scan and save the seemingly good stuff and review in more detail
later, deciding to respond or toss.

Several of the technical recruiting firms seem better than Robert Half for IT stuff, but I'm more into embedded hardware development
so I see things a bit differently (eg, Entegee, 1st St NW, Dacon, Strom, E-Tech, Flatley, Manpower, Max, NER, Nycor, Palmiter,
Primestaff, Strom, Sysdyne, etc).  However, seems to me the more technical recruiting and contract firms are better than the
bean-counting recruiters for Linux folk.  If you REALLY want to be a Linux techie, seek out the technical companies that have
high-performance CAE compute farms connected by Linux backbones.  Pay may be as much as 40% higher also.  Honeywell, Alliant Tech,
3M, General Dynamics, Lockheed, LSI, Seagate, and so on are some local examples.  DON'T use a firm that wants to post your resume
"on their board" because that kind will usually broadcast your stuff in an attempt to legally secure the placement fee by being the
first submitter.  Only permit specific job contacts on your behalf... harder to do in entry-level jobs tho.


Chuck



From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Thu Mar 18 17:36:23 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:36:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March 27th
Message-ID: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday March 27th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting Stephen Fluin will talk about

Browsers on Linux

One of the most critical uses of computers in modern society is as a 
portal onto the world wide web and the internet.  This is an area that 
is well supported under Linux, and Linux is seeing some of the latest 
cutting edge technologies immediately as they become available.  I am 
going to cover what browsers are available on Linux, how to try them 
out, some of the differences between them, and what is coming in the 
near future.

http://www.penguinsunbound.com/Future_Meetings/20100327_-_Browsers_On_Linux

Hope you are going to be able to make it.

==>brian.



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Mar 19 02:14:40 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 02:14:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:

> This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting Stephen Fluin will talk about
>
> Browsers on Linux


So basically it's going to be something like "There are browsers other 
than Firefox. No really, there are, honestly. Some of them are even 
completely functional! What's that? Are they /better/ than Firefox? Well, 
"better" is subjective. I mean they have other features. No, not as many. 
No, you can't use Adblock Plus and Noscript on the other browsers. Look, 
please, there are some really good reasons to use these other browsers! 
What? How many reasons? Lots! Ok, one! But it's a very goo... what? *sigh* 
yes it IS "curiosity". Fine I'll just talk about Firefox for the entire 
time."



-Yaron

--


From pcutler at gnome.org  Fri Mar 19 08:18:06 2010
From: pcutler at gnome.org (Paul Cutler)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 08:18:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>

On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 02:14 -0500, Yaron wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:
> 
> > This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting Stephen Fluin will talk about
> >
> > Browsers on Linux
> 
> 
> So basically it's going to be something like "There are browsers other 
> than Firefox. No really, there are, honestly. Some of them are even 
> completely functional! What's that? Are they /better/ than Firefox? Well, 
> "better" is subjective. I mean they have other features. No, not as many. 
> No, you can't use Adblock Plus and Noscript on the other browsers. Look, 
> please, there are some really good reasons to use these other browsers! 
> What? How many reasons? Lots! Ok, one! But it's a very goo... what? *sigh* 
> yes it IS "curiosity". Fine I'll just talk about Firefox for the entire 
> time."
> 
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

And how was this email helpful?  At least Brian has taken the initiative
to do something positive and have monthly meetings with topics on Linux
for new to experienced Linux users.

Maybe before you criticize you should spend a year or two organizing
monthly meetings and trying to get speakers / topics.

Paul



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 09:35:27 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:35:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190925180.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Paul Cutler wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 02:14 -0500, Yaron wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:
>>
>>> This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting Stephen Fluin will talk 
>>> about Browsers on Linux
>>
>> So basically it's going to be something like "There are browsers other 
>> than Firefox. No really, there are, honestly. Some of them are even 
>> completely functional! What's that? Are they /better/ than Firefox? 
>> Well, "better" is subjective. I mean they have other features. No, not 
>> as many. No, you can't use Adblock Plus and Noscript on the other 
>> browsers. Look, please, there are some really good reasons to use these 
>> other browsers! What? How many reasons? Lots! Ok, one! But it's a very 
>> goo... what? *sigh* yes it IS "curiosity". Fine I'll just talk about 
>> Firefox for the entire time."
>
> And how was this email helpful?  At least Brian has taken the initiative 
> to do something positive and have monthly meetings with topics on Linux 
> for new to experienced Linux users.
>
> Maybe before you criticize you should spend a year or two organizing 
> monthly meetings and trying to get speakers / topics.


There's that, and also, maybe he's wrong about the content of the 
presentation.  What about memory usage?  What's up with Chrome for Linux? 
Maybe he'll say a few things about Lynx and wget and curl.

Mike


From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Fri Mar 19 09:43:35 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:43:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>

i'm overdue to get mobile.  which way to go?  one thing is clear, i'm not
supporting at&t.  credo mobile is for me.  i see rumors i could make an
iphone work with credo(sprint).  and then i find the hero, perhaps that
would do.  and then i start thinking about ipad or netbook.  first question
for either, could any of them (be setup to) ring (like a phone), while
sleeping (or could it awaken from sleep in order to ring), especially while
running linux?
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From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 09:51:23 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:51:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
	27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190925180.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190925180.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003190751l19ae7cbbmb7b2042c45bbb8e5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Mike Miller
<mbmiller+l at gmail.com<mbmiller%2Bl at gmail.com>
> wrote:

>
>
> There's that, and also, maybe he's wrong about the content of the
> presentation.  What about memory usage?  What's up with Chrome for Linux?
> Maybe he'll say a few things about Lynx and wget and curl.
>
> Mike
>
>
And Links.  And .... *shudder* emacs.    ;-)

-Rob
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From andyschmid at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 09:54:10 2010
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:54:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a31003190754g6c999592oa3212588e4aa2c45@mail.gmail.com>

I hear the droid is pretty cool, and its linux based.  I've got co-workers
who have hacked custom firmware, overclocked/underclocked the cpu, loaded on
different interfaces, etc.  If that kind of stuff interests you, I would go
with the driod and avoid all apple products like the plague.

-Andy

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 9:43 AM, greg wm <tclug1 at greatlakedata.com> wrote:

> i'm overdue to get mobile.  which way to go?  one thing is clear, i'm not
> supporting at&t.  credo mobile is for me.  i see rumors i could make an
> iphone work with credo(sprint).  and then i find the hero, perhaps that
> would do.  and then i start thinking about ipad or netbook.  first question
> for either, could any of them (be setup to) ring (like a phone), while
> sleeping (or could it awaken from sleep in order to ring), especially while
> running linux?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Mar 19 09:58:12 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:58:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>

Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Paul Cutler wrote:

> On Fri, 2010-03-19 at 02:14 -0500, Yaron wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Mar 2010, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:
>>
>>> This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting Stephen Fluin will talk about
>>>
>>> Browsers on Linux
>>
>>
>> So basically it's going to be something like "There are browsers other
>> than Firefox. No really, there are, honestly. Some of them are even
>> completely functional! What's that? Are they /better/ than Firefox? Well,
>> "better" is subjective. I mean they have other features. No, not as many.
>> No, you can't use Adblock Plus and Noscript on the other browsers. Look,
>> please, there are some really good reasons to use these other browsers!
>> What? How many reasons? Lots! Ok, one! But it's a very goo... what? *sigh*
>> yes it IS "curiosity". Fine I'll just talk about Firefox for the entire
>> time."
>>
>>
>>
>> -Yaron
>>
>> --
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> And how was this email helpful?  At least Brian has taken the initiative
> to do something positive and have monthly meetings with topics on Linux
> for new to experienced Linux users.
>
> Maybe before you criticize you should spend a year or two organizing
> monthly meetings and trying to get speakers / topics.
>
> Paul
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-Yaron

--


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Mar 19 10:04:42 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:04:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>


On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, greg wm wrote:

> i'm overdue to get mobile.? which way to go?? on

Well, an iPhone/iPad pretty much puts you on AT&T, for now (or t-mobile if 
you jailbreak/unlock).

I absolutely looove the Android platform. And now that I have a Nexus One 
I love that it's on hardware that can actually handle it, and apparently 
Hero is a biiit on the sluggish side (which was driving me crazy on my 
previous Android phone).

Not that the iPhone isn't a quality piece of equipment, but Android is 
just so much more OPEN.

As for iPad/Netbook, that's all well and good as long as you don't need to 
actually, you know, make phone calls (;


-Yaron

--

From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 10:20:14 2010
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:20:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
	27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <27e6356a1003190820u1c877f3ar117ed7c2d0a38033@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?

Sorry, there is a separate list for that now.


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 10:32:47 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:32:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191031430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191031430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191032260.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Yaron wrote:
>
>> Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?
>
> What a complete asshole you are.


Maybe I should clarify -- that was a joke.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 10:32:10 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:32:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191031430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Yaron wrote:

> Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?

What a complete asshole you are.

Mike


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Mar 19 10:45:10 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:45:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191032260.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191031430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191032260.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191044500.2161@localhost.localdomain>


On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

>>> Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?
>> What a complete asshole you are.
> Maybe I should clarify -- that was a joke.

I don't get it.

-Yaron

--


From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Mar 19 10:45:36 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:45:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
Message-ID: <2lhl8jycx3xlrc31a7rvqy1s.1269013536810@email.android.com>

+

Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

>
>On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, greg wm wrote:
>
>> i'm overdue to get mobile.? which way to go?? on
>
>Well, an iPhone/iPad pretty much puts you on AT&T, for now (or t-mobile if 
>you jailbreak/unlock).
>
>I absolutely looove the Android platform. And now that I have a Nexus One 
>I love that it's on hardware that can actually handle it, and apparently 
>Hero is a biiit on the sluggish side (which was driving me crazy on my 
>previous Android phone).
>
>Not that the iPhone isn't a quality piece of equipment, but Android is 
>just so much more OPEN.
>
>As for iPad/Netbook, that's all well and good as long as you don't need to 
>actually, you know, make phone calls (;
>
>
>-Yaron
>
>--
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From adam.morris at redstargaming.net  Fri Mar 19 10:53:51 2010
From: adam.morris at redstargaming.net (Adam Morris)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:53:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
Message-ID: <f58h35ypju7gchb5ufxjegnd.1269013567677@email.android.com>

+1 for the Motorolla Droid even though I keep spamming the list trying to reply with it. :p

I absolutely love the Android platform.  It's easy to use, easy to develop for, and easy to hack.  I picked up the Droid after having several old school Palm Treo's and I've not been disappointed yet... well except for my finger accidentally hitting send with the on-screen keyboard.

If the Droid isn't you cup of tea, you might try the Nokia N900.

Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

>
>On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, greg wm wrote:
>
>> i'm overdue to get mobile.? which way to go?? on
>
>Well, an iPhone/iPad pretty much puts you on AT&T, for now (or t-mobile if 
>you jailbreak/unlock).
>
>I absolutely looove the Android platform. And now that I have a Nexus One 
>I love that it's on hardware that can actually handle it, and apparently 
>Hero is a biiit on the sluggish side (which was driving me crazy on my 
>previous Android phone).
>
>Not that the iPhone isn't a quality piece of equipment, but Android is 
>just so much more OPEN.
>
>As for iPad/Netbook, that's all well and good as long as you don't need to 
>actually, you know, make phone calls (;
>
>
>-Yaron
>
>--
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Mar 19 10:59:52 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 10:59:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
	27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191044500.2161@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191031430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191032260.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191044500.2161@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <DCF117A8-2F67-43FA-9797-D8B8F220F1F7@me.com>

exactly,

back to topic please.


On Mar 19, 2010, at 10:45 AM, Yaron wrote:

>
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>>>> Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?
>>> What a complete asshole you are.
>> Maybe I should clarify -- that was a joke.
>
> I don't get it.
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 11:05:23 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:05:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
 27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191044500.2161@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain>
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191031430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191032260.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191044500.2161@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191104590.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Yaron wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>>>> Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?
>>> What a complete asshole you are.
>> Maybe I should clarify -- that was a joke.
>
> I don't get it.

I didn't get your joke either, so I guess it's a common problem.

Mike


From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 11:07:18 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:07:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <cac45c241003190907v2e40c003r401b11ba233e3063@mail.gmail.com>

AT&T in the Twin Cities Metro has been solid. I don't get downtown much so I
can't say how good or bad things are there. The AT&T horror stories are
coming out of San Francisco and New York where the dense tech-savvy
populations with smartphones have pushed the networks past the breaking
point.

There is no way you can get an iPhone to work with Sprint or Verizon. AT&T
and T-Mobile use GSM cell technology, Sprint and Verizon use CDMA.
Completely different radio technologies.

For me, the big seller for iPhone is content. Podcasts, Audible.com, and
content from the iTunes store. I've also ripped some purchased content for
use on my iPhone or for use without the original media.

If content isn't what's driving your decision, the Nexus One and the Droid
easily round out the top three smartphones on the market today. The killer
for me is that the Android OS doesn't yet have playback support for
Audible.com content. It's supposed to be in the works, but it's been in the
works for a long time now.

As for smartphone vs. iPad vs. netbook, I would currently opt for the
smartphone or iPad (or both). With a 8-month old in the house I don't have
much time for doing much with a computer, but I can find a few moments here
and there for email or checking some web stuff with my iPhone, or make it
through a movie or TV show in 10 minute increments. So I'm tempted by the
iPad, but wishing Apple would have done more to make it a mid point between
the iPhone and a MacBook. Given currently available funds, I'll be waiting
to see what develops.

When I do find time to use my laptop I'm doing more intensive things such as
editing photos or video (mostly of my daughter), or doing other things where
I don't want to be hindered by a small screen of a smartphone, iPad, or
netbook. I have a nice MacBook Pro, I just can't find a use case for a
netbook.

The best advice I can give you is to go with what fits you and your life.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Mar 19 11:29:51 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:29:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <cac45c241003190907v2e40c003r401b11ba233e3063@mail.gmail.com>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>
	<cac45c241003190907v2e40c003r401b11ba233e3063@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191127380.8789@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Andrew S. Zbikowski wrote:

> The killer for me is that the Android OS doesn't yet have playback 
> support for Audible.com content. It's supposed to be in the works, but 
> it's been in the works for a long time now.

As a sidenote, that's pretty much why I was never willing to get into 
Audible. MP3 had already been around for AGES, why the heck would I pay 
for something that uses a custom player? That's just ridiculous in this 
day and age - and even in the day-and-age it was 5 years ago.


-Yaron

--


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 11:36:31 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:36:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 42
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13392.1269014963.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.13392.1269014963.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <25f02f41003190936l7f5574cel527e8db8c8f012a5@mail.gmail.com>

I fully enjoy my Motorola Droid. The droid could use a little help in the
opensource flashplayer department as market charges ten dollars for the
player.
I passed on paid flash. How ever youtube plays fine and I wonder if it is
HTML 5 that is running instead of flash?
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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Fri Mar 19 11:46:22 2010
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu, Linux user)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:46:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: NEW Twin Cities Electrical Engineering
 networking/job transition group
Message-ID: <20100319114622.f7d88c54.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com>

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/twin_cities_ee/

If you are an electrical engineer, please join Twin Cities Electrical Engineering, the first networking a job transition group specializing in electrical engineering.

-- 
Jason Hsu, Linux user <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>


From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 12:03:20 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:03:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 41 linux meeting.
Message-ID: <25f02f41003191003m22e23cbfsbfbf5beec9af32c0@mail.gmail.com>

Time for the meeting ? At ties?
I look forward to going to another unbound meeting.
I am doing some PHP and MySQL server project right now and it is always good
to bounce ideas of others with the same interests.
Last time I was at unbound it was fun and relaxed :D
I am even going to bring my *shudder* girlfriend :D
So that she can learn more about Linux.

Thanks , Ron
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From shanson at cruiskeen.com  Fri Mar 19 11:51:18 2010
From: shanson at cruiskeen.com (Steve Hanson)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:51:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <tygav1e0eaga2cpwhrpmf3kc.1268870369310@email.android.com>
References: <tygav1e0eaga2cpwhrpmf3kc.1268870369310@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <4BA3AB86.4030104@cruiskeen.com>

I don't at ALL mean to confuse any of the issues here, so please just
take this as an offer -  I'm technically a member, but I don't get to
the meetings at all often since I'm over in Wisconsin.

If you'd be interested in hosting the TCLUG site with me, I'd offer you
a shared hosting account for free if you'll just put a link in the site
that you're hosted with us - http://cruiskeenconsulting.com

There's a one-click install for most of the popular CMS packages,
including Drupal and Wordpress. 

Again, this is just an offer.  The server would be in Eau Claire, WI,
where our colo site is.



From andyzib at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 15:38:25 2010
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:38:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191127380.8789@localhost.localdomain>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>
	<cac45c241003190907v2e40c003r401b11ba233e3063@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191127380.8789@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <cac45c241003191338m5315605cw874798d076698a82@mail.gmail.com>

>
> As a sidenote, that's pretty much why I was never willing to get into
> Audible. MP3 had already been around for AGES, why the heck would I pay
> for something that uses a custom player? That's just ridiculous in this
> day and age - and even in the day-and-age it was 5 years ago.
>
>
My understanding is the Audible format is MP3 in a DRM wrapper and some
extra stuff for chapters markers, resume where left off, etc. that had to be
implemented to make an experience equivalent to or superior to books on
tape.

Audible's proprietary **format and DRM has yet to get in the way of
enjoyment as long as I have a device that supports the Audible format.
Audible makes its SDK available to device makers, it's up to the device
maker to build in support. $20 a month for 20-40 hours of fiction or
non-fiction isn't a bad deal. Much better than what's on the radio most days
while driving to and from work. :)

That's the way technology works. Sometimes you get stuck with a legacy
solution that was created before a standard was created or achieved wide
adoption, or overcoming the inertia of of a solution (Flash Player anyone?)
is extremely difficult.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
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From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 16:57:15 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 16:57:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <cac45c241003190907v2e40c003r401b11ba233e3063@mail.gmail.com>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>
	<cac45c241003190907v2e40c003r401b11ba233e3063@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003191457v648f013exf2cda5060fe4d81f@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Andrew S. Zbikowski <andyzib at gmail.com>wrote:

> AT&T in the Twin Cities Metro has been solid. I don't get downtown much so
> I can't say how good or bad things are there. The AT&T horror stories are
> coming out of San Francisco and New York where the dense tech-savvy
> populations with smartphones have pushed the networks past the breaking
> point.
>
>
Here in the St. Cloud and Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area, I've had very
good performance with my iPhone 3gs.  When I've left the 3g network the Edge
network has worked pretty well, so long as I can get it.  Once I leave I-94
in the western part of the state I often have no signal and it gets
sketchy.  But I'm in the 3G zone 98.68735333% of the time, and when I'm not
in the 3G zone I'm often "gone fishing" so I'm happy to be "off the grid".

Rumor has it the 4.0 release of the iPhone OS will support multitasking,
potentially making the iPad a netbook crusher.  Of course, if you want to
hack/modify your phone and geek out with it, the walled garden that is the
iPhone is perhaps not for you.  Me personally, I can't stand fail user
interfaces.  When I help colleagues with their blackberries or HT Touches
the user interface inspires thoughts of seppuku.

Brief aside: The App Store has some amazing stuff in it.  While visiting an
old friend from Apple, we wondered what the music we were listening to while
eating out was.  He pulled out his iPhone, held it up in the air, and then
30 seconds later told me the name of the song and artist.  Turns out there
is an App (Shazam) that does reverse-lookups on music.  Later that night I
was in the hotel bar and wondered what the cool music I was listening too
was.  Two minutes later I was downloading it into my phone.

-Rob
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From kris.browne at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 17:11:13 2010
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:11:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <cac10ddc1003191457v648f013exf2cda5060fe4d81f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ba3f689.9453f10a.2a52.262b@mx.google.com>

Don't forget the Palm Pre as a Linux based phone... The sdk isn't bad, it supports local app deployment if you want to develop for it, and if unlocked you can drop in a terminal, ssh, apache, etc.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Mar 19, 2010 17:02, Robert Nesius &lt;nesius at gmail.com&gt; wrote: 



On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Andrew S. Zbikowski &lt;andyzib at gmail.com&gt; wrote:

AT&amp;T in the Twin Cities Metro has been solid. I don't get downtown much so I can't say how good or bad things are there. The AT&amp;T horror stories are coming out of San Francisco and New York where the dense tech-savvy populations with smartphones have pushed the networks past the breaking point. 



Here in the St. Cloud and Minneapolis/St. Paul metro area, I've had very good performance with my iPhone 3gs.&nbsp; When I've left the 3g network the Edge network has worked pretty well, so long as I can get it.&nbsp; Once I leave I-94 in the western part of the state I often have no signal and it gets sketchy.&nbsp; But I'm in the 3G zone 98.68735333% of the time, and when I'm not in the 3G zone I'm often "gone fishing" so I'm happy to be "off the grid".&nbsp; 


Rumor has it the 4.0 release of the iPhone OS will support multitasking, potentially making the iPad a netbook crusher.&nbsp; Of course, if you want to hack/modify your phone and geek out with it, the walled garden that is the iPhone is perhaps not for you.&nbsp; Me personally, I can't stand fail user interfaces.&nbsp; When I help colleagues with their blackberries or HT Touches the user interface inspires thoughts of seppuku. 


Brief aside: The App Store has some amazing stuff in it.&nbsp; While visiting an old friend from Apple, we wondered what the music we were listening to while eating out was.&nbsp; He pulled out his iPhone, held it up in the air, and then 30 seconds later told me the name of the song and artist.&nbsp; Turns out there is an App (Shazam) that does reverse-lookups on music.&nbsp; Later that night I was in the hotel bar and wondered what the cool music I was listening too was.&nbsp; Two minutes later I was downloading it into my phone.


-Rob


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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 19 17:33:52 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:33:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <4ba3f689.9453f10a.2a52.262b@mx.google.com>
References: <cac10ddc1003191457v648f013exf2cda5060fe4d81f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ba3f689.9453f10a.2a52.262b@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20100319223352.GC2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 05:11:13PM -0500, Kristopher Browne wrote:
> Don't forget the Palm Pre as a Linux based phone... The sdk isn't bad,
> it supports local app deployment if you want to develop for it, and if
> unlocked you can drop in a terminal, ssh, apache, etc.

I'd love a Pre, but it's CDMA only and from a company that is on
shaky ground at the moment:

   http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/19/technology/palm_target_price_zero/index.htm

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From tclugl at whitleymott.net  Fri Mar 19 17:53:18 2010
From: tclugl at whitleymott.net (gregwm)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 17:53:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <f58h35ypju7gchb5ufxjegnd.1269013567677@email.android.com>
References: <f58h35ypju7gchb5ufxjegnd.1269013567677@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003191553i710c189eub36df990fde26262@mail.gmail.com>

>
> try the Nokia N900.
>

no takers on the original question, netbook/ipad or a umpc ringing from
sleep (linux or not)?  like iphone the n900 won't sprint, too bad.  moto
droid?  dunno, but given credo(sprint) is whom i choose to support, it's
looking good for hero from what i've read so far..
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 19 18:19:41 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:19:41 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <20100319223352.GC2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <cac10ddc1003191457v648f013exf2cda5060fe4d81f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ba3f689.9453f10a.2a52.262b@mx.google.com>
	<20100319223352.GC2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191757160.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 05:11:13PM -0500, Kristopher Browne wrote:
>
>> Don't forget the Palm Pre as a Linux based phone... The sdk isn't bad, 
>> it supports local app deployment if you want to develop for it, and if 
>> unlocked you can drop in a terminal, ssh, apache, etc.
>
> I'd love a Pre, but it's CDMA only and from a company that is on shaky 
> ground at the moment:
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/19/technology/palm_target_price_zero/index.htm


I have one.  The article says, "Grozovsky said Palm has attributed its 
sales slump to salespeople at the wireless carriers not being well enough 
versed about the potential benefits of new Palm phones such as the Pre and 
Pixi."  Then goes on to dismiss that idea, but I think it is a good point. 
A related point is that they messed up on some design issues.  For one, 
it's hard to figure out how to move the cursor around.  There's no 
navigation button (scroll left, right, up, down).  I don't get it.  If you 
ask someone in the Sprint store how to do things, they don't know.  This 
is despite the fact that they promised to do a series of training seminars 
for users.  I don't like needing a training seminar, but I like even less 
needing one and not getting it, especially after being promised one.

With earlier Handspring/Palm devices like the Treo 600, it used to be easy 
to move the cursor around.  Things just worked.  I didn't have to figure 
anything out and I never had to ask for help.

On my first Pre, the power button simply died.  So I went to the Sprint 
store with it and they told me to go to the other Sprint store.  I called 
first to ask if they had one in stock.  They told me that they didn't have 
one in stock, but they couldn't get one in stock until I came in.  In 
other words, I'd probably have to make two trips.  This is their policy. 
F**k their policy.  So I went in and got lucky -- they had one in stock 
and they replaced it.  The replacement was refurbished, not new.  C'est la 
vie.  Within a day or two I figured out that the microphone was cutting 
out during calls unless I squeezed the case while talking.  So I brought 
it back, waited two days for the replacement, went back again and they 
replaced it with another refurb phone.  This one had a working microphone 
and power button, but if you ask me, the power button is going and the 
case is screwed up, so I want to bring it back before they go out of 
business.  So I've made 4 ten-mile trips to the Sprint store and am on my 
third Pre and I want to replace this one too.

With every replacement I lose things.  The old Treo was synced on my 
computer -- absolutely *everything* was synced including all configuration 
settings.  Everything with zero exception.  With the Pre, some things get 
lost.  Staff at the Sprint store don't show the slightest concern for my 
data.  They also will give you false information about what you will lose. 
Is this a training issue, or a not-giving-a-shit issue?  I don't know.

Yes, it's a competitive market, but the way to explain the failure of a 
company to compete in that market is in terms of the product and service, 
not in terms of the competition.

I don't know whether to blame Sprint or Palm, but I do know that the next 
time I get a phone, it is very unlikely to be Sprint or Palm, maybe some 
kind of Android on Verizon will work.  I'd also like a phone that works in 
my house without forcing me to stand next to the south window in the 
middle of the first floor -- hello, I'm in a major city here.

Oops, I forgot to say anything good about the Pre.  There are good things 
to say, but I've run out of time.

Mike


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Mar 19 18:23:06 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:23:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 42
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003190936l7f5574cel527e8db8c8f012a5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.13392.1269014963.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<25f02f41003190936l7f5574cel527e8db8c8f012a5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201003191823.06134.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> opensource flashplayer department as market charges ten dollars for the
> player.

They charge for Flash?  Is that from Adobe?  That seems odd.  Adobe's business 
depends on everyone having flash.

I write flash apps (amongst other stuff), so I'm pretty eager for Flash 10 
Mobile.  Flash is moving to open source (at least big chunks of it), and it's 
a pretty neat framework.  For instance, you can write code in a scripting 
language that resembles VHDL, and they will run your code massively in 
parallel on the video card's GPU.  Stuff like that.

Jeremy


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Mar 19 18:15:06 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:15:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a31003190754g6c999592oa3212588e4aa2c45@mail.gmail.com>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<7b7c42a31003190754g6c999592oa3212588e4aa2c45@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201003191815.06747.tclug@lizakowski.com>


I'm looking at the google phone, which runs android.  Else I might get the 
droid.  Either way my next phone is probably android.  

But since I'm in the middle of a contract, I bought a cheap iPod Touch, as an 
alternative to the iPhone.  It has wifi, and pretty much everything as the 
iPhone except a camera, internal mic, and compass.  I understand it is similar 
to the iPad as well.   The browser is awesome.  little things like pinch to 
zoom -  it's amazing how much that little bit helps.  With an external mic, I 
can use skype to make free calls, and the UI is lightyears, no, parsecs beyond 
the blackberry.  I knew I got burned with the Storm, but I didn't realize how 
bad until I had the iPod.  Just with typing, I can go way faster on the ipod 
than the storm.  The app store is kinda amusing at times.  I have a nice piano 
synthizer for $1 (multitouch lets you do chords), and a ton of apps for free.

In the last year, I've found that Apple stuff actually works pretty well.  I 
still use Linux on all my servers and my desktop, but for a laptop, I swapped 
my Dell/XP box for a Mac/Snow Leopard.  I don't know why it took me that long 
to make the switch from XP.  (I can't use Linux for that machine because I 
need some commercial tools).  

Since Mac is based on BSD, I can use macports and fink to access pretty much 
anything in the debian repositories, and it's just apt-get with another name.  
So I get most of the OSS software (except the bsd instead of linux kernel), 
and I also get a number of neat mac apps as well.  And if I want linux, I can 
just load a VM.  

So, yeah, I was pretty surprised that I liked Mac.  One drawback: I did have 
to personally sign my soul over to Steve Jobs.  But it was easy to transfer 
the paperwork from Msft.

Jeremy


On Friday 19 March 2010 9:54:10 am Andy Schmid wrote:
> I hear the droid is pretty cool, and its linux based.  I've got co-workers
> who have hacked custom firmware, overclocked/underclocked the cpu, loaded
> on different interfaces, etc.  If that kind of stuff interests you, I would
> go with the driod and avoid all apple products like the plague.
>
> -Andy
>
> On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 9:43 AM, greg wm <tclug1 at greatlakedata.com> wrote:
> > i'm overdue to get mobile.  which way to go?  one thing is clear, i'm not
> > supporting at&t.  credo mobile is for me.  i see rumors i could make an
> > iphone work with credo(sprint).  and then i find the hero, perhaps that
> > would do.  and then i start thinking about ipad or netbook.  first
> > question for either, could any of them (be setup to) ring (like a phone),
> > while sleeping (or could it awaken from sleep in order to ring),
> > especially while running linux?
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From tclug at lizakowski.com  Fri Mar 19 18:16:29 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:16:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>
References: <429c5ec21003190743r389d9410h8decbbb637ffc0e6@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191001080.2161@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <201003191816.29474.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> but Android is just so much more OPEN.

Well, at least the apple developer agreement no longer has that clause about 
[REDACTED].

J

On Friday 19 March 2010 10:04:42 am Yaron wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Mar 2010, greg wm wrote:
> > i'm overdue to get mobile.  which way to go?  on
>
> Well, an iPhone/iPad pretty much puts you on AT&T, for now (or t-mobile if
> you jailbreak/unlock).
>
> I absolutely looove the Android platform. And now that I have a Nexus One
> I love that it's on hardware that can actually handle it, and apparently
> Hero is a biiit on the sluggish side (which was driving me crazy on my
> previous Android phone).
>
> Not that the iPhone isn't a quality piece of equipment, but Android is
> just so much more OPEN.
>
> As for iPad/Netbook, that's all well and good as long as you don't need to
> actually, you know, make phone calls (;
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --




From brian at ropers-huilman.net  Fri Mar 19 19:00:58 2010
From: brian at ropers-huilman.net (Brian D. Ropers-Huilman)
Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 19:00:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003191553i710c189eub36df990fde26262@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f58h35ypju7gchb5ufxjegnd.1269013567677@email.android.com> 
	<429c5ec21003191553i710c189eub36df990fde26262@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0e11c481003191700q35fd2148x6f9aaf4c86abb0c5@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 17:53, gregwm <tclugl at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> no takers on the original question, netbook/ipad or a umpc ringing from
> sleep (linux or not)?? like iphone the n900 won't sprint, too bad.? moto
> droid?? dunno, but given credo(sprint) is whom i choose to support, it's
> looking good for hero from what i've read so far..

As to the original question, I side with whomever said go with a new
high-end mobile device (Google is trying to use the term "super
phone") for the mobile stuff and stick with a "real" (can still be
cheap) laptop for "real" work (photo and video editing was mentioned
and I'd through in code development and the like as well).

I moved our family off of AT&T (I was on my 3rd Treo {a 650 and two
680s}) and over to CredoMobile (we'd had Credo Long Distance on the
land-line for over 10 years). I was not aware that the Hero was an
option. I wound up getting the BB Curve 8330. It was quite a switch
from the Treo and at first I pined the loss, but at this point I'm
very happy.

I drink all the Kool-Aid Google produces so the seamless sync of
Contacts to the phone was pure bliss and the integration of the
calendar (not a full or seamless sync) is _great_ (much better than
all the by-hand or 3rd party mechanations I went through with the
Treo). My work (the University of Minnesota) has moved to Google and
the Google Mail client can effortlessly read my personal and work
email with push technology. Google Maps ties to the GPS. Google Voice
just works. It's all quite nice.

So, back to the Hero. If you know of some way to get a Hero from
CredoMobile or how to get a Hero to work with CredoMobile, please let
me know. I could give the BB to my partner (she's been making small
hints that she might be ready to take the plunge from her paper
planner and the like) and I'd jump all over a Hero.

I'd much prefer a Droid or the Nexus Two (or Three, whichever device
they eventually release that really is perfect), but I'm willing to
take baby steps and very much want to be on an Android platform.
-- 
Brian D. Ropers-Huilman
612.234.7778


From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Sat Mar 20 10:25:39 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 10:25:39 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [tclug-list] CLASSIFIED - LINKSYS WGR614 Wireless Router
Message-ID: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1003201022200.4248@bobs_laptop.LCL.local>

Forgive me for sending this to the list, but the classified link on the 
site doesn't work.

FREE

Works Great.

Linksys WGR614 v6 wireless router.

Contact me off list mkebob1134 at netscape.net or call 612 850 6940 if 
interested.


Thanks,

B-o-B


From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Sat Mar 20 18:20:37 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:20:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CLASSIFIED - LINKSYS WGR614 Wireless Router
In-Reply-To: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1003201022200.4248@bobs_laptop.LCL.local>
References: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1003201022200.4248@bobs_laptop.LCL.local>
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003201620yd8a5799mb9fdebf45646027@mail.gmail.com>

hi b-o-b,
i'll be interested if pickup is not far, i'm near como.
thanks,
greg

On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 10:25 AM, Mr. B-o-B <mkebob1134 at netscape.net> wrote:

> Forgive me for sending this to the list, but the classified link on the
> site doesn't work.
>
> FREE
>
> Works Great.
>
> Linksys WGR614 v6 wireless router.
>
> Contact me off list mkebob1134 at netscape.net or call 612 850 6940 if
> interested.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> B-o-B
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From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Sat Mar 20 18:23:48 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:23:48 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CLASSIFIED - LINKSYS WGR614 Wireless Router
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003201620yd8a5799mb9fdebf45646027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1003201022200.4248@bobs_laptop.LCL.local> 
	<429c5ec21003201620yd8a5799mb9fdebf45646027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003201623h7644966jf55de0738a3f9ccf@mail.gmail.com>

rrrr, sorry!  <unsend> <offlist>
where are those buttons when you need them anyway?
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From tclugl at whitleymott.net  Sat Mar 20 18:45:52 2010
From: tclugl at whitleymott.net (gregwm)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:45:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] hero or iphone or ipad or netbook
In-Reply-To: <f0e11c481003191700q35fd2148x6f9aaf4c86abb0c5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f58h35ypju7gchb5ufxjegnd.1269013567677@email.android.com> 
	<429c5ec21003191553i710c189eub36df990fde26262@mail.gmail.com> 
	<f0e11c481003191700q35fd2148x6f9aaf4c86abb0c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003201645n2d06c723g21000169df13ae13@mail.gmail.com>

>
> go with a new high-end mobile device


as the cheapskate hacker i am, if i could find a way to run anything akin to
VNC or rdesktop on, say, a sanyo 2700, i'd be golden with half the dataplan
cost.  anyone wise to suchlike?

yeah i was presuming anything that works on sprint works on credo, but not
so, they say.  i do wonder about unlocking/unjailing, but haven't seen
relevant claims nor have the time to play right now.  hero's in their pipe,
but yeh, looks like the curve is it.
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From danyberg at gmail.com  Sat Mar 20 20:02:44 2010
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:02:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for reseller hosting
Message-ID: <5daafeb11003201802t284e78dduda658f2387e65c23@mail.gmail.com>

My wife does web site design and hosting for a few small clients and family,
and is looking for recommendations for reseller hosting.
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From erikerik at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 00:37:00 2010
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:37:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for reseller hosting
In-Reply-To: <5daafeb11003201802t284e78dduda658f2387e65c23@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5daafeb11003201802t284e78dduda658f2387e65c23@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f1003202237p566a6a77jc482242ed48cf6b@mail.gmail.com>

I've heard very good things about hostgator's reseller program. I
don't use it myself, but I do use one of their "normal" hosting
packages and I've found them to be a great provider.

On 3/20/10, swede <danyberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> My wife does web site design and hosting for a few small clients and family,
> and is looking for recommendations for reseller hosting.
>


-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Mar 21 00:44:18 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:44:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for reseller hosting
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f1003202237p566a6a77jc482242ed48cf6b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5daafeb11003201802t284e78dduda658f2387e65c23@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f1003202237p566a6a77jc482242ed48cf6b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <185880A0-EF84-4188-93DD-C96973F7E02E@me.com>

I'm re-considering doing hosting but probably not going to do it with  
email... I can provide other options (rackspace, for example).


On Mar 21, 2010, at 12:37 AM, Erik Anderson wrote:

> I've heard very good things about hostgator's reseller program. I
> don't use it myself, but I do use one of their "normal" hosting
> packages and I've found them to be a great provider.
>
> On 3/20/10, swede <danyberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>> My wife does web site design and hosting for a few small clients  
>> and family,
>> and is looking for recommendations for reseller hosting.
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Erik Anderson
> http://andersonfam.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Sun Mar 21 12:16:36 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 12:16:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 46
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1269190802.3959.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1269190802.3959.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <25f02f41003211016k62984583s1c30cfabec75b123@mail.gmail.com>

I use bluehost and  know a reseller and parts fabrication company that uses
them as well, they have a great web interface for managing your server and
lots of tools and packages, also they are ranked very highly by the wold
wide web consortium.
at 54 dollars a year and 14 dollars a year for sub domains they are hard to
beat.
,Ron
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From tclug at lizakowski.com  Sun Mar 21 13:56:37 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:56:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 46
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003211016k62984583s1c30cfabec75b123@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1269190802.3959.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<25f02f41003211016k62984583s1c30cfabec75b123@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201003211356.37869.tclug@lizakowski.com>


I have a site on BlueHost, and so far everything is good.  They were good with 
tech support, and were surprisingly cheap.

Most importantly, they let me set up a site without giving them DNS control.  
I happen to like my local DNS provider, and most of the cheap hosts require 
you to xfer at least part of the DNS to them.  

Jeremy

On Sunday 21 March 2010 12:16:36 pm r j wrote:
> I use bluehost and  know a reseller and parts fabrication company that uses
> them as well, they have a great web interface for managing your server and
> lots of tools and packages, also they are ranked very highly by the wold
> wide web consortium.
> at 54 dollars a year and 14 dollars a year for sub domains they are hard to
> beat.
> ,Ron




From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Mon Mar 22 20:35:04 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:35:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting March
	27th
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191104590.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4BA2AAE7.10305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190209550.5236@localhost.localdomain> 
	<1269004686.23123.43.camel@sandman.site>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003190957570.2161@localhost.localdomain> 
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191031430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191032260.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu> 
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191044500.2161@localhost.localdomain> 
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003191104590.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003221835mf58aff1qdabc20cd08c81e43@mail.gmail.com>

>
>  yes it IS "curiosity". Fine I'll just talk about Firefox for the entire
>>>>>> time."
>>>>>>
>>>>>  And Links.  And .... *shudder* emacs.    ;-)
>>>>>
>>>>  Honestly, have people just not ever heard of a joke?
>>>>
>>> Sorry, there is a separate list for that now.
>>>
>>  Maybe I should clarify -- that was a joke.
>>
> I don't get it.
>

*<LMAO>*
thanks guys you made my day!
best laugh i've had in ages!
see you at the browser browser..
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From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar 23 10:35:35 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 10:35:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <4BA3AB86.4030104@cruiskeen.com>;
	from shanson@cruiskeen.com on Fri, Mar 19, 2010 at 11:51:18AM
	-0500
References: <tygav1e0eaga2cpwhrpmf3kc.1268870369310@email.android.com>
	<4BA3AB86.4030104@cruiskeen.com>
Message-ID: <20100323103535.O23444@real-time.com>

On 03/19 11:51 , Steve Hanson wrote:
> I don't at ALL mean to confuse any of the issues here, so please just
> take this as an offer -  I'm technically a member, but I don't get to
> the meetings at all often since I'm over in Wisconsin.
> 
> If you'd be interested in hosting the TCLUG site with me, I'd offer you
> a shared hosting account for free if you'll just put a link in the site
> that you're hosted with us - http://cruiskeenconsulting.com

I personally have no objection to the TCLUG/mn-linux.org site being hosted elsewhere.
I can't speak for all of RTE tho.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Tue Mar 23 13:34:12 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 13:34:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] CLASSIFIED - LINKSYS WGR614 Wireless Router
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003201620yd8a5799mb9fdebf45646027@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1003201022200.4248@bobs_laptop.LCL.local>
	<429c5ec21003201620yd8a5799mb9fdebf45646027@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BA909A4.9040107@netscape.net>

On 3/20/2010 6:20 PM, greg wm wrote:
> hi b-o-b,
> i'll be interested if pickup is not far, i'm near como.
> thanks,
> greg
>

The router was picked up today.

I just wanted to let you know.

Thanks,

Bob


From SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us  Tue Mar 23 17:31:17 2010
From: SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us (Scott Downing)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:31:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
Message-ID: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>

I was wondering what the recommended way to set up real-time (or near real-time) folder synchronization among 2+ servers. I looked a rsync but that doesn't sound real-time and it looks like its something that you might put in a cron once an hour.

Does anyone have any experience doing this and can offer any other tips?

-Scott
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From itwontdie at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 17:39:08 2010
From: itwontdie at gmail.com (Ryan R)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 17:39:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <79758ac81003231539x21921acfs3ee9af8ec96dceeb@mail.gmail.com>

Depending on what you are trying to do sshfs may be a solution.


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 18:20:54 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:20:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <79758ac81003231539x21921acfs3ee9af8ec96dceeb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<79758ac81003231539x21921acfs3ee9af8ec96dceeb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003231815560.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 23 Mar 2010, Ryan R wrote:

> Depending on what you are trying to do sshfs may be a solution.


I've been using that for some of my work, but I would use NFS mounting 
instead.  Maybe you would always write files to multiple locations 
simultaneously with mount points like...

/serv1
/serv2
/serv3

Or whatever.  If every server always writes to all servers, that would 
work.  If you have some process detecting changes and updating, that's 
always going to have more lag time.

Mike


From erikerik at gmail.com  Tue Mar 23 23:30:49 2010
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 22:30:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
References: <AcrK2I2vgOXDY4OQQP6hIUgmj2R35g==>
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <fc40260f1003232130y641ca898u408b962edd9c0fd6@mail.gmail.com>

Have you ever checked out a cluster filesystem like AFS, GlusterFS?

On 3/23/10, Scott Downing <SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us> wrote:
> I was wondering what the recommended way to set up real-time (or near
> real-time) folder synchronization among 2+ servers. I looked a rsync but
> that doesn't sound real-time and it looks like its something that you might
> put in a cron once an hour.
>
> Does anyone have any experience doing this and can offer any other tips?
>
> -Scott
>


-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Wed Mar 24 00:45:09 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 23:45:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <254fef0f1003232245r668c5fe2t2e038f10d42355cf@mail.gmail.com>

The suggestions of NFS or AFS make sense.  If you did want to stick
with a syncing approach instead, you could use incron to trigger a
sync based on filesystem events rather than each hour.  ie. whenever a
file is changed, you do the sync immediately.

 - Tony Yarusso


From tclug1 at greatlakedata.com  Wed Mar 24 03:35:15 2010
From: tclug1 at greatlakedata.com (greg wm)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 03:35:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f1003232130y641ca898u408b962edd9c0fd6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<fc40260f1003232130y641ca898u408b962edd9c0fd6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003240135n6422eb88g224556b82504e7d3@mail.gmail.com>

how about drbd?
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From SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us  Wed Mar 24 08:47:45 2010
From: SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us (Scott Downing)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:47:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<254fef0f1003232245r668c5fe2t2e038f10d42355cf@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB3@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>

I thought about NFS but the problem is there's no failover with that, the share goes down and every server is rendered useless, also I anticipate a lot more reads than writes and having the data available locally is going to be much faster. A minute of two delay is ok. I'm going to take a look at DRDB and incron, 

This is for a high traffic web app that has some disk storage, I need the folder syntonization so we can load balance among multiple servers.

Thanks,
Scott



-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org on behalf of Tony Yarusso
Sent: Wed 3/24/2010 12:45 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
 
The suggestions of NFS or AFS make sense.  If you did want to stick
with a syncing approach instead, you could use incron to trigger a
sync based on filesystem events rather than each hour.  ie. whenever a
file is changed, you do the sync immediately.

 - Tony Yarusso

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From jima at beer.tclug.org  Wed Mar 24 12:52:14 2010
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:52:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <20100323103535.O23444@real-time.com>
References: <tygav1e0eaga2cpwhrpmf3kc.1268870369310@email.android.com>	<4BA3AB86.4030104@cruiskeen.com>
	<20100323103535.O23444@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <4BAA514E.1020104@beer.tclug.org>

On 03/23/2010 10:35 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> On 03/19 11:51 , Steve Hanson wrote:
>> I don't at ALL mean to confuse any of the issues here, so please just
>> take this as an offer -  I'm technically a member, but I don't get to
>> the meetings at all often since I'm over in Wisconsin.
>>
>> If you'd be interested in hosting the TCLUG site with me, I'd offer you
>> a shared hosting account for free if you'll just put a link in the site
>> that you're hosted with us - http://cruiskeenconsulting.com
>
> I personally have no objection to the TCLUG/mn-linux.org site being hosted elsewhere.
> I can't speak for all of RTE tho.

  Not that I'm a mover or a shaker, but I too am unopposed to 
alternative hosting solutions.  I'll echo Carl's caveat, however (I 
can't speak for ANY of them).

      Jima


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Wed Mar 24 12:49:29 2010
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 12:49:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <20100317205342.GC19380@therub.org>
References: <68dbb6fe1003121102g5f5aed2che5b7667cf3007098@mail.gmail.com>	<dd442d761003152219k4b192888t6eed8691546e9c51@mail.gmail.com>	<20100316084655.A23444@real-time.com>	<dd442d761003161303t2e5b7adbje4f8a93dad735fa1@mail.gmail.com>	<20100317141314.H23444@real-time.com>	<68dbb6fe1003171328n5e04d926x51488553ce3c4e96@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100317205342.GC19380@therub.org>
Message-ID: <4BAA50A9.50501@beer.tclug.org>

On 03/17/2010 03:53 PM, Dan Rue wrote:
> I'm opposed to a dynamic site.  Here's why:

  I can't say I disagree with any of your points there.

> I suggest (albeit without being willing to assist with it :), a static
> site that simply introduces our group and provides links to more
> information (mailing list, facebook group, linkedin group, etc).  Use
> those other social tools to provide member directories and dynamic
> content.

http://www.linkedin.com/groups?about=&gid=127022&trk=anet_ug_grppro

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2353254972

  In case anyone was curious.

> For instance, you can have a static site, but include a twitter result
> for the search phrase #tclug (or other keywords).  This way it has fresh
> content, but isn't a security risk, requires no maintenance, and doesn't
> immediately fall out of date.

http://search.twitter.com/search?q=%23tclug

  I like the angle on using Twitter.  I've pre-emptively registered a 
"tclug" account, which I'll be happy to share with/hand off to 
responsible parties.

  While "Web 2.0" technologies (to abuse a buzzword) are all fine and 
good, I agree that we do need to evaluate whether there's sufficient 
reason for us to maintain our own environment, particularly with the 
babysitting they require (security, breakage, etc).
  For my part, I'll likely go with whatever the TCLUG Powers That Be 
think is best.

      Jima

(tclug.org DNS BOFH)


From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Mar 24 13:02:22 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 13:02:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] finished with TCLUG site fixes
In-Reply-To: <4BAA514E.1020104@beer.tclug.org>;
	from jima@beer.tclug.org on Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 12:52:14PM -0500
References: <tygav1e0eaga2cpwhrpmf3kc.1268870369310@email.android.com>
	<4BA3AB86.4030104@cruiskeen.com>
	<20100323103535.O23444@real-time.com>
	<4BAA514E.1020104@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <20100324130222.F23444@real-time.com>

On 03/24 12:52 , Jima wrote:
> On 03/23/2010 10:35 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> > On 03/19 11:51 , Steve Hanson wrote:
> >> I don't at ALL mean to confuse any of the issues here, so please just
> >> take this as an offer -  I'm technically a member, but I don't get to
> >> the meetings at all often since I'm over in Wisconsin.
> >>
> >> If you'd be interested in hosting the TCLUG site with me, I'd offer you
> >> a shared hosting account for free if you'll just put a link in the site
> >> that you're hosted with us - http://cruiskeenconsulting.com
> >
> > I personally have no objection to the TCLUG/mn-linux.org site being hosted elsewhere.
> > I can't speak for all of RTE tho.
> 
>   Not that I'm a mover or a shaker, but I too am unopposed to 
> alternative hosting solutions.  I'll echo Carl's caveat, however (I 
> can't speak for ANY of them).

I discussed it with the rest of RTE; and we'd be quite favorably disposed to
someone else taking over hosting of www.tclug.org and www.mn-linux.org.

Set up the new site and we'll make the DNS changes for mn-linux.org (and
presumably Jima can make the changes for tclug.org).

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From matthew at lechleider.com  Wed Mar 24 17:14:23 2010
From: matthew at lechleider.com (Matthew Lechleider)
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:14:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Drupal Jam Chicago is this Saturday! (all day!)
Message-ID: <4BAA8EBF.40405@lechleider.com>

CDMUG's Spring Jam is this Saturday and today is the last day to request 
catering. Registering by midnight tonight is the only way to ensure the 
super special gourmet food provided by Sasha Ruge of Chef's Palette. 
Register early to guarantee Internet access which requires each attendee 
to utilize a university user login account.

We are excited to see attendees traveling from all over the midwest. The 
entire CDMUG community is looking forward to hanging out with everyone 
all day on Saturday. If you have any questions, comments, want to 
sponsor, or can help out in any way, let us know - 
http://jam.cdmug.org/contact

The goal for Jam is to keep all skill levels entertained throughout the 
entire day.


.oO0-Presentations-0Oo.
If you are an advanced Drupal nerd looking for presentations on cutting 
edge topics, look no further. We are proud to present seven Drupal 7 
presentations until 7:00 pm.

10:00 - 11:30 Intro To Drupal 7 Presented By: Larry Garfield
11:45 - 12:30 Themes in Drupal 7 Presented By: Brandon Morrison
1:30 - 3:00 Fields/CCK and Views with Drupal 7 Presented By: Doug Vann
3:15 - 4:00 Drupal 7 API Presented By: Larry Garfield
4:15 - 5:00 Shopping Cart Systems Presented By: Ruben Rodriguez
5:00 - 6:00 Accessibility in Drupal 7 Presented By: Katherine Lynch
6:00 - 7:00 Mystery Session Presented By: Un Known


.oO0-Workshops-0Oo.
New users are encouraged to participate in one of our two workshops: 
"Drupal for Everyone" or "Drupal for Designers". Both workshops will 
start as an introduction to Drupal, but people interested design/themes 
will gain more from "Drupal For Designers".

10:30 - 12:30 Introduction and Basics
12:30 - 1:30 Break for Lunch
1:30 - 3:30 Lecture, demonstrations, and hands-on examples.
3:30 - 4:00 Q&A

Workshop 1: Introduction to Drupal For Everyone
Instructors: Matthew Lechleider & Sean Charles

Workshop 2: Introduction to Drupal For Designers
Instructors:Hans Riemenschneider & Bob Snodgrass


.oO0-DrupalconSF Contest-0Oo.
Friday March 26th 7:00 pm is the deadline to enter our Drupalcon San 
Francisco contest. During lunch we will bring the top 5 finalists on 
stage for Drupalympics. One winner will receive a sponsorship for their 
trip to Drupalcon, compliments of CDMUG and Trellon. After registering 
for the Jam, be sure to fill out an entry form at 
http://jam.cdmug.org/contest


http://jam.cdmug.org

Event Registration - http://jam.cdmug.org/user/registration


- Matthew at Lechleider.com



From tclugl at whitleymott.net  Thu Mar 25 07:08:20 2010
From: tclugl at whitleymott.net (gregwm)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 07:08:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB3@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<254fef0f1003232245r668c5fe2t2e038f10d42355cf@mail.gmail.com> 
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB3@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <429c5ec21003250508v4af050f7k31ff000557c118c0@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I thought about NFS but the problem is there's no failover with that, the
> share goes down and every server is rendered useless, also I anticipate a
> lot more reads than writes and having the data available locally is going to
> be much faster. A minute of two delay is ok. I'm going to take a look at
> DRDB and incron,


so true re nfs.  please share as your experiences unfold with drbd and
incron.
-g
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 09:47:29 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:47:29 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <429c5ec21003250508v4af050f7k31ff000557c118c0@mail.gmail.com>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<254fef0f1003232245r668c5fe2t2e038f10d42355cf@mail.gmail.com>
	<7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB3@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
	<429c5ec21003250508v4af050f7k31ff000557c118c0@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003250944430.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 25 Mar 2010, gregwm wrote:

>> I thought about NFS but the problem is there's no failover with that, 
>> the share goes down and every server is rendered useless, also I 
>> anticipate a lot more reads than writes and having the data available 
>> locally is going to be much faster. A minute of two delay is ok. I'm 
>> going to take a look at DRDB and incron,
>
>
> so true re nfs.  please share as your experiences unfold with drbd and 
> incron.


I'm interested in hearing about the other options, but my NFS advice was 
not to do NFS mounting to a single point.  It was to do NFS mounting from 
every machine to every other machine and do every write to all of them. 
That would keep everything synced, always.  It might be tricky to arrange, 
though.

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Thu Mar 25 09:59:43 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 09:59:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Folder Synchronization
In-Reply-To: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
References: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB2@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>
Message-ID: <20100325145943.GR2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 05:31:17PM -0500, Scott Downing wrote:
> I was wondering what the recommended way to set up real-time (or near
> real-time) folder synchronization among 2+ servers. I looked a rsync
> but that doesn't sound real-time and it looks like its something that
> you might put in a cron once an hour.

How much data are we talking about?  If it's a few gigabytes, then you
can hold it all in RAM and you can rsync every minute without much
pain, especially if you have a private gigabit loopback network.  Many
real servers come with more than one NIC these days.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Thu Mar 25 10:02:49 2010
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:02:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list]  WANTED CLASSIFIED - Sysadmin Magazine Archive CD
Message-ID: <201003251502493582248fae@mail.smumn.edu>

Good Day-

Back in 2007 when Sysadmin Magazine was dropped from publication a CD was offered to their subscribers with a copy of all volumes ever released.

Being this was a great..great magazine with invaluable content I am looking to get a hold of a piece of this priceless information.

I am willing to pay or trade for similar content.

Thank you in advanced!



"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From Jason.Heibel at talentemail.com  Thu Mar 25 10:13:16 2010
From: Jason.Heibel at talentemail.com (Heibel, Jason)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 10:13:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
Message-ID: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>

Good Morning!

Please call me directly if you're interested in immediate Linux Administrator opportunities.

Have a great day!

Jason A. Heibel
Talent Software Services, Inc.
Office - 952-417-3632
Cell - 612-968-6659
Jason at Talentemail.com<mailto:Jason at Talentemail.com>

P.S. - Visit our new website at "talktotalent"

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From jglouisjr at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 11:51:04 2010
From: jglouisjr at gmail.com (James Louis)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:51:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
In-Reply-To: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>
References: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>
Message-ID: <25df3f981003250951w484291c3p156f93c9fd07f2e3@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks Jason but I am back to work now.

Jim

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Heibel, Jason <
Jason.Heibel at talentemail.com> wrote:

>  Good Morning!
>
>
>
> Please call me directly if you?re interested in immediate Linux
> Administrator opportunities.
>
>
>
> Have a great day!
>
>
>
> *Jason A. Heibel*
>
> Talent Software Services, Inc.
>
> *Office* - 952-417-3632
>
> *Cell *- 612-968-6659
>
> Jason at Talentemail.com
>
>
>
> *P.S. - Visit our new website at "talktotalent"*
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
May the source be with you, but remember the KISS principle ;-)
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From srcfoo at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 12:51:13 2010
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:51:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
Message-ID: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>

So 1and1 (domain registrar) provides crappy DNS service (only 5
subdomains per package) and in general I don't really want to host my
DNS with them. I've been using everydns.net for a long time and have
had a great experience with them especially for the price. However
they were recently bought by dyndns which I'm sure will bring an end
to "Free DNS" soon.

Who do you host your DNS with? Are other registrars more flexible on
number of subdomains? How much do you pay?

Thanks,
Eric


From j at packetgod.com  Thu Mar 25 13:02:17 2010
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:02:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38aa5b6a1003251102l477e709fu2829e9d9a5c6242c@mail.gmail.com>

Well I've been with godaddy for some time now and their DNS that comes free
with the domain registration basically just works.  No issues and few
complaints since they made a few UI improvements.  I'm not sure there is any
limitation on subdomains though, I can try it out and see.

My only complaint with godaddy is the massive quantity of ads that you need
to wade through to buy any domain.  They have a new "skip all the junk and
just give the domain already" button now though which really helps.

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Eric Peterson <srcfoo at gmail.com> wrote:

> So 1and1 (domain registrar) provides crappy DNS service (only 5
> subdomains per package) and in general I don't really want to host my
> DNS with them. I've been using everydns.net for a long time and have
> had a great experience with them especially for the price. However
> they were recently bought by dyndns which I'm sure will bring an end
> to "Free DNS" soon.
>
> Who do you host your DNS with? Are other registrars more flexible on
> number of subdomains? How much do you pay?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Thu Mar 25 13:15:26 2010
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:15:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>

On Mar 25, 2010, at 12:51:13, Eric Peterson wrote:

> So 1and1 (domain registrar) provides crappy DNS service (only 5
> subdomains per package) and in general I don't really want to host my
> DNS with them. I've been using everydns.net for a long time and have
> had a great experience with them especially for the price. However
> they were recently bought by dyndns which I'm sure will bring an end
> to "Free DNS" soon.
> 
> Who do you host your DNS with? Are other registrars more flexible on
> number of subdomains? How much do you pay?

I don't know why everyone is so averse to hosting DNS themselves.  It's free, and pretty simple to do.  Also, try looking at ns2exchange.com, I managed to find someone willing to swap secondary DNS and have been doing so for about two years with little difficulty.

HTH
---
Eric Crist






From andyschmid at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 13:23:28 2010
From: andyschmid at gmail.com (Andy Schmid)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:23:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <38aa5b6a1003251102l477e709fu2829e9d9a5c6242c@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com> 
	<38aa5b6a1003251102l477e709fu2829e9d9a5c6242c@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7b7c42a31003251123w5b9666e6lebf557c2f37eceb6@mail.gmail.com>

I use xname.org for DNS hosting.  No Ads, no spam, fast, reliable, and free.


-Andy

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:02 PM, J Cruit <j at packetgod.com> wrote:

> Well I've been with godaddy for some time now and their DNS that comes free
> with the domain registration basically just works.  No issues and few
> complaints since they made a few UI improvements.  I'm not sure there is any
> limitation on subdomains though, I can try it out and see.
>
> My only complaint with godaddy is the massive quantity of ads that you need
> to wade through to buy any domain.  They have a new "skip all the junk and
> just give the domain already" button now though which really helps.
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:51 PM, Eric Peterson <srcfoo at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So 1and1 (domain registrar) provides crappy DNS service (only 5
>> subdomains per package) and in general I don't really want to host my
>> DNS with them. I've been using everydns.net for a long time and have
>> had a great experience with them especially for the price. However
>> they were recently bought by dyndns which I'm sure will bring an end
>> to "Free DNS" soon.
>>
>> Who do you host your DNS with? Are other registrars more flexible on
>> number of subdomains? How much do you pay?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Eric
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From srcfoo at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 17:12:16 2010
From: srcfoo at gmail.com (Eric Peterson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:12:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <579c6fd31003251512w53ca212cy48b6de2769e8ffa9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Eric F Crist
<ecrist at secure-computing.net> wrote:
> I don't know why everyone is so averse to hosting DNS themselves. ?It's free, and pretty simple to do. ?Also, try looking at ns2exchange.com, I managed to find someone willing to swap secondary DNS and have been doing so for about two years with little difficulty.


I thought about this and actually like the idea but was afraid. Now
that I know there's others who do it and there's actually a system for
swapping secondary DNS, I'll consider that route more seriously.

I've run djbdns for internal DNS for a long time and would probably
want to go that way. What have you been using?

Thanks for the feedback.

Eric


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Mar 25 17:25:31 2010
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:25:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org>

On 3/25/2010 1:15 PM, Eric F Crist wrote:
> On Mar 25, 2010, at 12:51:13, Eric Peterson wrote:
>
>> So 1and1 (domain registrar) provides crappy DNS service (only 5
>> subdomains per package) and in general I don't really want to host my
>> DNS with them. I've been using everydns.net for a long time and have
>> had a great experience with them especially for the price. However
>> they were recently bought by dyndns which I'm sure will bring an end
>> to "Free DNS" soon.
>>
>> Who do you host your DNS with? Are other registrars more flexible on
>> number of subdomains? How much do you pay?
>
> I don't know why everyone is so averse to hosting DNS themselves.  It's free, and pretty simple to do.  Also, try looking at ns2exchange.com, I managed to find someone willing to swap secondary DNS and have been doing so for about two years with little difficulty.

  Ditto.  I've been running my own DNS for over 10 years, though, so 
maybe that comfort level is a bit amplified.
  I tried numerous providers a couple weeks ago (some of my users were 
asking for a web interface) and discovered I really didn't like any of 
them.  I ended up writing my own UI for bind.

      Jima


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 19:01:06 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:01:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
	<4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>

I'm using Name.com as my domain registrar, and they provide all of my
DNS with the registration, and I've been very happy with their service
so far.  (No barrage of ads or other nonsense - just to the point.)  I
don't believe they have any of the kinds of limits you referenced, and
the prices vary by TLD and are quite reasonable.  A number of years
ago I used a free DNS-only service called ZoneEdit, which is still
around.  That was limited in number of domains and/or subdomains in
some way - I don't remember the specifics.

 - Tony Yarusso


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 19:13:29 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:13:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
In-Reply-To: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>
References: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>
Message-ID: <254fef0f1003251713m113b7d0agb73df209bd9e4e72@mail.gmail.com>

It might be helpful if you specified whether these were full-time,
part-time, or temporary contract types of positions.


From erikerik at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 19:46:37 2010
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:46:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
	<4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org>
	<254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm using Name.com as my domain registrar, and they provide all of my
> DNS with the registration, and I've been very happy with their service
> so far. ?(No barrage of ads or other nonsense - just to the point.) ?I
> don't believe they have any of the kinds of limits you referenced, and
> the prices vary by TLD and are quite reasonable. ?A number of years
> ago I used a free DNS-only service called ZoneEdit, which is still
> around. ?That was limited in number of domains and/or subdomains in
> some way - I don't remember the specifics.

I also use name.com for domain registrations. I used their DNS service
for a couple short weeks until I discovered that they choose to do
NXDOMAIN hijacking on invalid subdomains. After discovering that, I
promptly pointed my DNS over to linode's DNS service. I had an account
there and get free DNS hosting along with it if I choose. I've been
much happier with that service than with name.com's.

-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 20:03:10 2010
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:03:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
	<4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org>
	<254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <254fef0f1003251803j2d7a9092kceddd62cd3eb0c2@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> I also use name.com for domain registrations. I used their DNS service
> for a couple short weeks until I discovered that they choose to do
> NXDOMAIN hijacking on invalid subdomains.

ORLY?  I usually use a wildcard entry, so haven't encountered that,
but that is mighty annoying...


From tclug at jfoo.org  Thu Mar 25 20:40:58 2010
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:40:58 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <254fef0f1003251803j2d7a9092kceddd62cd3eb0c2@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>	<30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>	<4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org>	<254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>	<fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<254fef0f1003251803j2d7a9092kceddd62cd3eb0c2@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BAC10AA.7090902@jfoo.org>

Tony Yarusso wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:46 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I also use name.com for domain registrations. I used their DNS service
>> for a couple short weeks until I discovered that they choose to do
>> NXDOMAIN hijacking on invalid subdomains.
> 
> ORLY?  I usually use a wildcard entry, so haven't encountered that,
> but that is mighty annoying...

Hmmmm... what about godaddy? Any nefarious hi-jacking going on there?
I could switch to linode (happy customer for almost a year now), or
go back to running my own DNS server.

On the original topic - I used to host my own DNS with djbdns. It worked
pretty well, but I didn't have a backup provider, and when you added up
the downtime from the DSL line and my server at home, it was nowhere
near 5 9's. I'd go back to it if needed since I now host at linode
with better pipe/server uptime.

j


From erikerik at gmail.com  Thu Mar 25 21:01:54 2010
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 20:01:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <4BAC10AA.7090902@jfoo.org>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net>
	<4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org>
	<254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<254fef0f1003251803j2d7a9092kceddd62cd3eb0c2@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BAC10AA.7090902@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <fc40260f1003251901i7148b1c4i3ef07e331a9b5fb9@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:40 PM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:
> Hmmmm... what about godaddy? Any nefarious hi-jacking going on there?
> I could switch to linode (happy customer for almost a year now), or
> go back to running my own DNS server.

No, not that I've seen. You can test for yourself if you want - just
do a host lookup for a non-existant subdomain and see if an IP address
gets returned.

-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Mar 26 04:22:37 2010
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 04:22:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] *Saturday* Browsers on Linux @PenguinsUnbound Meeting
	March 27th
Message-ID: <4BAC7CDD.9090101@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday March 27th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting Stephen Fluin will talk about

Browsers on Linux

One of the most critical uses of computers in modern society is as a 
portal onto the world wide web and the internet.  This is an area that 
is well supported under Linux, and Linux is seeing some of the latest 
cutting edge technologies immediately as they become available.  I am 
going to cover what browsers are available on Linux, how to try them 
out, some of the differences between them, and what is coming in the 
near future.

http://www.penguinsunbound.com/Future_Meetings/20100327_-_Browsers_On_Linux

Hope you are going to be able to make it.

==>brian.



From Jason.Heibel at talentemail.com  Fri Mar 26 07:34:47 2010
From: Jason.Heibel at talentemail.com (Heibel, Jason)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:34:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
In-Reply-To: <254fef0f1003251713m113b7d0agb73df209bd9e4e72@mail.gmail.com>
References: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>
	<254fef0f1003251713m113b7d0agb73df209bd9e4e72@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CFA@TSERVER.talent.local>

Great point Tony! These are contract and contract for hire positions 4-6 month engagements.

Have a great weekend!

Jason A. Heibel
Talent Software Services, Inc.
Office - 952-417-3632
Cell - 612-968-6659
Jason at Talentemail.com
 
P.S. - Visit our new website at "talktotalent"
-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Yarusso [mailto:tonyyarusso at gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:13 PM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Cc: Heibel, Jason
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed

It might be helpful if you specified whether these were full-time,
part-time, or temporary contract types of positions.


From ecrist at secure-computing.net  Fri Mar 26 07:41:14 2010
From: ecrist at secure-computing.net (Eric F Crist)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:41:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
In-Reply-To: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CFA@TSERVER.talent.local>
References: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>
	<254fef0f1003251713m113b7d0agb73df209bd9e4e72@mail.gmail.com>
	<99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CFA@TSERVER.talent.local>
Message-ID: <7FDC3A03-D691-4A81-B266-1AD1A7D33592@secure-computing.net>

Isn't there a jobs list for this?


On Mar 26, 2010, at 07:34:47, Heibel, Jason wrote:

> Great point Tony! These are contract and contract for hire positions 4-6 month engagements.
> 
> Have a great weekend!
> 
> Jason A. Heibel
> Talent Software Services, Inc.
> Office - 952-417-3632
> Cell - 612-968-6659
> Jason at Talentemail.com
> 
> P.S. - Visit our new website at "talktotalent"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tony Yarusso [mailto:tonyyarusso at gmail.com] 
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:13 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Cc: Heibel, Jason
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
> 
> It might be helpful if you specified whether these were full-time,
> part-time, or temporary contract types of positions.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 

---
Eric Crist






From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 08:07:22 2010
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:07:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
In-Reply-To: <7FDC3A03-D691-4A81-B266-1AD1A7D33592@secure-computing.net>
References: <99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CEE@TSERVER.talent.local>
	<254fef0f1003251713m113b7d0agb73df209bd9e4e72@mail.gmail.com>
	<99C7D4D5E9022348A20C1E72213CDB6942D9024CFA@TSERVER.talent.local>
	<7FDC3A03-D691-4A81-B266-1AD1A7D33592@secure-computing.net>
Message-ID: <81675d141003260607u6427f1f1iab5a2b2e1705a1ee@mail.gmail.com>

Is this 3M? there hiring contractors now, not that I would go and work for them.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 7:41 AM, Eric F Crist
<ecrist at secure-computing.net> wrote:
> Isn't there a jobs list for this?
>
>
> On Mar 26, 2010, at 07:34:47, Heibel, Jason wrote:
>
>> Great point Tony! These are contract and contract for hire positions 4-6 month engagements.
>>
>> Have a great weekend!
>>
>> Jason A. Heibel
>> Talent Software Services, Inc.
>> Office - 952-417-3632
>> Cell - 612-968-6659
>> Jason at Talentemail.com
>>
>> P.S. - Visit our new website at "talktotalent"
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tony Yarusso [mailto:tonyyarusso at gmail.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 7:13 PM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Cc: Heibel, Jason
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Administrators needed
>>
>> It might be helpful if you specified whether these were full-time,
>> part-time, or temporary contract types of positions.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
> ---
> Eric Crist
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From mfunger at arbita.net  Fri Mar 26 08:48:24 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew F. Unger)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:48:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f1003251901i7148b1c4i3ef07e331a9b5fb9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com><30A4DBEA-B3C2-454B-BC39-C20AF7D38D5A@secure-computing.net><4BABE2DB.6070502@beer.tclug.org><254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com><fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com><254fef0f1003251803j2d7a9092kceddd62cd3eb0c2@mail.gmail.com><4BAC10AA.7090902@jfoo.org>
	<fc40260f1003251901i7148b1c4i3ef07e331a9b5fb9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011FB9CD@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>

Fun fact about GoDaddy: their TOS is pretty harsh. We got a SINGLE
report of spam, and after 6 weeks of trying to get the actual complaint
sent to us without luck, they shut off our DNS. We switched to DynDNS
temporarily and will be looking in the near future as well.

Matt
 

-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
[mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Erik Anderson
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 9:02 PM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:40 PM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:
> Hmmmm... what about godaddy? Any nefarious hi-jacking going on there?
> I could switch to linode (happy customer for almost a year now), or
> go back to running my own DNS server.

No, not that I've seen. You can test for yourself if you want - just
do a host lookup for a non-existant subdomain and see if an IP address
gets returned.

-- 
Erik Anderson
http://andersonfam.org

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mfunger at arbita.net  Fri Mar 26 08:53:16 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew F. Unger)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 08:53:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
Message-ID: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011FB9D0@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>

Good morning everyone,

 

I've been working at a primarily Linux shop for the past year, and I've
decided that it is time to get some more robust training. Does anyone
have any recommendations for solid Linux training in the area? We're a
Debian shop, so that would be helpful, though not necessary. Also, more
focus on Apache than most of the training courses I've seen would be
welcome. 

 

Thank you all in advance,


Matt Unger

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From matthew at lechleider.com  Fri Mar 26 09:01:03 2010
From: matthew at lechleider.com (Matthew Lechleider)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:01:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
In-Reply-To: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011FB9D0@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
References: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011FB9D0@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
Message-ID: <4BACBE1F.3040809@lechleider.com>

Lesson # 1.

"training"


:)

Matthew F. Unger wrote:
>
> Good morning everyone,
>
> I?ve been working at a primarily Linux shop for the past year, and 
> I?ve decided that it is time to get some more robust training. Does 
> anyone have any recommendations for solid Linux training in the area? 
> We?re a Debian shop, so that would be helpful, though not necessary. 
> Also, more focus on Apache than most of the training courses I?ve seen 
> would be welcome.
>
> Thank you all in advance,
>
>
> Matt Unger
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   



From SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us  Fri Mar 26 09:15:29 2010
From: SDowning at erdc.k12.mn.us (Scott Downing)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:15:29 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
References: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A011FB9D0@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
	<4BACBE1F.3040809@lechleider.com>
Message-ID: <7D5F5E8B99ED1F4EAB6A5EC9F0D8CCA80115DFB5@erdc-mail.erdc.k12.mn.us>

Actually I'd like to hear about some training options in the area too, not really for myself but for others in our IT department. We have a cluster of linux boxes that I'm the only one in the entire company that knows how to maintain.






-----Original Message-----
From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org on behalf of Matthew Lechleider
Sent: Fri 3/26/2010 9:01 AM
To: TCLUG Mailing List
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
 
Lesson # 1.

"training"


:)

Matthew F. Unger wrote:
>
> Good morning everyone,
>
> I've been working at a primarily Linux shop for the past year, and 
> I've decided that it is time to get some more robust training. Does 
> anyone have any recommendations for solid Linux training in the area? 
> We're a Debian shop, so that would be helpful, though not necessary. 
> Also, more focus on Apache than most of the training courses I've seen 
> would be welcome.
>
> Thank you all in advance,
>
>
> Matt Unger
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>   


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Fri Mar 26 10:31:35 2010
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:31:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
Message-ID: <20100326153135738224d5f0@mail.smumn.edu>


On Friday, March 26, 2010  9:15 AM, Scott Downing wrote:
>
>Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:15:29 -0500
>From: Scott Downing
>To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>cc: 
>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
>
>Actually I'd like to hear about some training options in the area too, not really for myself but for others in our IT department. We have a cluster of linux boxes that I'm the only one in the entire company that knows how to maintain.
>
>
>
>

I have not seen any local training as far as just an Apache training course.

I had barely any hands on experience with Apache when suddenly I had to maintain a group of Apache servers in production and testing environments.

During this time my first concern with managing Apache is security then functionality or vice versa. 

To make my story short, I dived into it by purchasing a handful of books from amazon including "Preventing Web Attacks with Apache" which walks you though compilation and including using the mod_security module for hardening:

http://www.modsecurity.org/

My recommendation for learning is to download Apache source and compile this for your personal test box. With aid from the book(s) I mentioned you can start with a minimal of modules then little by little add more modules as needed.

Although many will disagree and instead will tell you to just use the apache provided by your package manager, this will probably be true if

1. You know how to enable/disable (un)necessary modules.
2. You're familiar with hardening Apache
3. You're familiar implementing SSL certificates.
4. You're familiar with virtual hosts.

I guess they're too many things to list without getting more information about that exactly you are trying to accomplish exactly.

I do have other books in mind just can't remember the names but if interested I can send them to you off/on line.

By the way I may be able to provide some up to date reading material from a well known security course on hardening Apache if you are interested.

Thanks,
David 









"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Fri Mar 26 10:31:35 2010
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:31:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] cc: Re:  Linux traniing/mentoring options
Message-ID: <20100326153135738224d5f0@mail.smumn.edu>


On Friday, March 26, 2010  9:15 AM, Scott Downing wrote:
>
>Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:15:29 -0500
>From: Scott Downing
>To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>cc: 
>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
>
>Actually I'd like to hear about some training options in the area too, not really for myself but for others in our IT department. We have a cluster of linux boxes that I'm the only one in the entire company that knows how to maintain.
>
>
>
>

I have not seen any local training as far as just an Apache training course.

I had barely any hands on experience with Apache when suddenly I had to maintain a group of Apache servers in production and testing environments.

During this time my first concern with managing Apache is security then functionality or vice versa. 

To make my story short, I dived into it by purchasing a handful of books from amazon including "Preventing Web Attacks with Apache" which walks you though compilation and including using the mod_security module for hardening:

http://www.modsecurity.org/

My recommendation for learning is to download Apache source and compile this for your personal test box. With aid from the book(s) I mentioned you can start with a minimal of modules then little by little add more modules as needed.

Although many will disagree and instead will tell you to just use the apache provided by your package manager, this will probably be true if

1. You know how to enable/disable (un)necessary modules.
2. You're familiar with hardening Apache
3. You're familiar implementing SSL certificates.
4. You're familiar with virtual hosts.

I guess they're too many things to list without getting more information about that exactly you are trying to accomplish exactly.

I do have other books in mind just can't remember the names but if interested I can send them to you off/on line.

By the way I may be able to provide some up to date reading material from a well known security course on hardening Apache if you are interested.

Thanks,
David 









"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From SDALAN04 at smumn.edu  Fri Mar 26 11:15:04 2010
From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu (SDALAN04 at smumn.edu)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:15:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
Message-ID: <20100326161504378224d9c1@mail.smumn.edu>

I apologize for my previous double post.

Another good resource is the #apache IRC channel that runs on the irc.freenode.net

Some information that I left out in my previous e-mail was the reason for compiling from source was the need for a particular older version of Apache to run third party applications.

Compiling from source you'll learn to define alternate installation directories, compile/manually add additional modules, make sure you have an init.d script to start Apache on boot, and troubleshoot amongst other tasks.

David


On Friday, March 26, 2010 10:31 AM, SDALAN04 at smumn.edu wrote:
>
>Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 10:31:35 -0500
>From: SDALAN04 at smumn.edu
>To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>cc: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
>
>On Friday, March 26, 2010  9:15 AM, Scott Downing wrote:
>>
>>Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:15:29 -0500
>>From: Scott Downing
>>To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>>cc:
>>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux traniing/mentoring options
>>
>>Actually I'd like to hear about some training options in the area too, not really for myself but for others in our IT department. We have a cluster of linux boxes that I'm the only one in the entire company that knows how to maintain.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>I have not seen any local training as far as just an Apache training course.
>
>I had barely any hands on experience with Apache when suddenly I had to maintain a group of Apache servers in production and testing environments.
>
>During this time my first concern with managing Apache is security then functionality or vice versa.
>
>To make my story short, I dived into it by purchasing a handful of books from amazon including "Preventing Web Attacks with Apache" which walks you though compilation and including using the mod_security module for hardening:
>
>http://www.modsecurity.org/
>
>My recommendation for learning is to download Apache source and compile this for your personal test box. With aid from the book(s) I mentioned you can start with a minimal of modules then little by little add more modules as needed.
>
>Although many will disagree and instead will tell you to just use the apache provided by your package manager, this will probably be true if
>
>1. You know how to enable/disable (un)necessary modules.
>2. You're familiar with hardening Apache
>3. You're familiar implementing SSL certificates.
>4. You're familiar with virtual hosts.
>
>I guess they're too many things to list without getting more information about that exactly you are trying to accomplish exactly.
>
>I do have other books in mind just can't remember the names but if interested I can send them to you off/on line.
>
>By the way I may be able to provide some up to date reading material from a well known security course on hardening Apache if you are interested.
>
>Thanks,
>David
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein
>
>"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



"Great Spirits Have Always Encountered Violent Opposition From Mediocre Minds" - Einstein

"Cuanta estupidez en tan poco cerebro!"



From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:02:51 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:02:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
Message-ID: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>

A question on languages.
What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use them.
I am a python beginner and i am working through the standard library and
writing simple scripts using pattern matching. and the sys library to make a
cross platform easy administration tool. Maybe a web interface later on.
I also use Bash.

,Ron
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:09:38 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:09:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] installing Chromium on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <4BAC7CD6.8010305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <4BAC7CD6.8010305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261205400.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Brian Dolan-Goecke wrote:

> Browsers on Linux
>
> One of the most critical uses of computers in modern society is as a 
> portal onto the world wide web and the internet.  This is an area that 
> is well supported under Linux, and Linux is seeing some of the latest 
> cutting edge technologies immediately as they become available.  I am 
> going to cover what browsers are available on Linux, how to try them 
> out, some of the differences between them, and what is coming in the 
> near future.
>
> http://www.penguinsunbound.com/Future_Meetings/20100327_-_Browsers_On_Linux



From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Mar 26 12:09:58 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:09:58 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages (was:  tclug-list Digest, Vol 63,
 Issue 53 off topic)
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, r j wrote:

> A question on languages.
> What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use them.

Perl. It's the swiss-army-language.

I've played around with PHP (which seemed a lot like bastardized perl).

If I was trying to do something serious, I'd probably still go with C, 
though.


-Yaron

--


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:15:40 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:15:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, r j wrote:

> A question on languages.
> What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use them.
> I am a python beginner and i am working through the standard library and
> writing simple scripts using pattern matching. and the sys library to make a
> cross platform easy administration tool. Maybe a web interface later on.
> I also use Bash.


It always depends on what your goals are.  For aspiring scientists, 
especially those who need to do statistical and/or probabilistic work, I 
recommend learning GNU R.  It also makes nice graphs.  It is the king of 
the stat packages now and that will continue.

Once they've learned some R, if they want more flexibility for more 
general kinds of programming, I would recommend Python.  I'm not using it 
myself, but it seems to be the way to go today.  I've talked with a lot of 
people about it and that's where I stand.

Of course, if you want to be a really serious programmer you'll want to 
learn C and/or C++.

For general everyday system hackery stuff, you should work on the Bash 
skills.  I do a lot with Bash scripts.

Mike


From erikerik at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:20:54 2010
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 11:20:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fc40260f1003261020m726cfb1m2aafad477dad0809@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 11:02 AM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:
> A question on languages.
> What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use them.
> I am a python beginner and i am working through the standard library and
> writing simple scripts using pattern matching. and the sys library to make a
> cross platform easy administration tool. Maybe a web interface later on.

Have you discovered Google's Python class yet?

http://code.google.com/edu/languages/google-python-class/

It's pretty good - I've just started working through it myself.

-Erik


From rick at real-time.com  Fri Mar 26 12:25:38 2010
From: rick at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:25:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] installing Chromium on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261205400.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4BAC7CD6.8010305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261205400.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4BACEE12.9000504@real-time.com>

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> $ sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install chromium-browser chromium-codecs-ffmpeg-nonfree
> E: The update command takes no arguments

Syntax typo...

Missing the semi-colon after update

sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install

Or split the two command on to separate lines in your shell/terminal/et al.

- -- 
Rick Tanner <rick at real-time.com>	 |  Phone : (952) 943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                 |  Fax	 :  (952) 943-8500
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:27:42 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:27:42 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] installing Chromium on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <4BACEC5F.7060206@jfoo.org>
References: <4BAC7CD6.8010305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261205400.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4BACEC5F.7060206@jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261222310.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, John Gateley wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> $ sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install chromium-browser chromium-codecs-ffmpeg-nonfree
>> E: The update command takes no arguments
>> ---------end output on previous line-----------------------
>
> Are you missing a ";" between sudo apt-get update and sudo apt-get install?


Yes.  They left it off on the instructions:

http://mortalpowers.com/tags/browsers

They probably meant to have that second "sudo" on a fourth line of code. 
Yep, looks like they missed a "<br>":

<div class="code">sudo apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com 4E5E17B5<br/>sudo add-apt-repository ppa:chromium-daily<br/>
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install chromium-browser chromium-codecs-ffmpeg-nonfree</div>

Thanks, John!  (I assume you don't mind my posting this on TCLUG.)

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:31:12 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:31:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages (was:  tclug-list Digest, Vol 63,
 Issue 53 off topic)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261228060.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Yaron wrote:

> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, r j wrote:
>
>> A question on languages.
>> What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use them.
>
> Perl. It's the swiss-army-language.
>
> I've played around with PHP (which seemed a lot like bastardized perl).
>
> If I was trying to do something serious, I'd probably still go with C,
> though.


It seems like the conventional wisdom these days is that Perl is hard to 
manage for larger projects and Python is easier to read and share.  I 
really don't know, personally, but this is what I've heard several times 
from seemingly independent sources.

I use perl all the time for small things, mostly search/replace regex 
kinds of jobs which can be surprisingly powerful.  Perl is quite fast at 
that kind of thing.  I definitely would recommend learning Perl regexes. 
They are also nice in pcregrep, another useful program.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:32:02 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:32:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] installing Chromium on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <4BACEE12.9000504@real-time.com>
References: <4BAC7CD6.8010305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261205400.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4BACEE12.9000504@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261231440.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Rick Tanner wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>> $ sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install chromium-browser chromium-codecs-ffmpeg-nonfree
>> E: The update command takes no arguments
>
> Syntax typo...
>
> Missing the semi-colon after update
>
> sudo apt-get update; sudo apt-get install
>
> Or split the two command on to separate lines in your shell/terminal/et al.


Thanks.  That is the right answer.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 12:43:48 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:43:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] installing Chromium on Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261231440.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <4BAC7CD6.8010305@Goecke-Dolan.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261205400.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4BACEE12.9000504@real-time.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261231440.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261237330.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

For clarification, I ran these commands on Ubuntu Karmic Koala 9.10 and it 
did install Chromium:

sudo apt-key adv --recv-keys --keyserver keyserver.ubuntu.com 4E5E17B5
sudo add-apt-repository ppa:chromium-daily
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get install chromium-browser chromium-codecs-ffmpeg-nonfree

I ran the command "chromium-browser" and it launched properly, prompted 
about importing Firefox settings, and so on.  It's looking good.

Thanks, everybody.

Mike


From strayf at freeshell.org  Fri Mar 26 12:43:32 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:43:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>

I would second the perl vote. One-liners, system administration, web 
applications, it runs the gamut and scales well. Just follow best practices 
to keep code clean and manageable.

-Steve

Yaron wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, r j wrote:
> 
>> A question on languages.
>> What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use them.
> 
> Perl. It's the swiss-army-language.
> 
> I've played around with PHP (which seemed a lot like bastardized perl).
> 
> If I was trying to do something serious, I'd probably still go with C, 
> though.
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 26 13:09:00 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:09:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100326180900.GX2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:15:40PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> It always depends on what your goals are.  For aspiring scientists, 
> especially those who need to do statistical and/or probabilistic work, I 
> recommend learning GNU R.  It also makes nice graphs.  It is the king of 
> the stat packages now and that will continue.

Matplotlib (a python library) by default produces better-looking graphs
than R.  You can of course tweak both, but for quick graphs I prefer
the former.

> Once they've learned some R, if they want more flexibility for more 
> general kinds of programming, I would recommend Python.  I'm not using it 
> myself, but it seems to be the way to go today.  I've talked with a lot of 
> people about it and that's where I stand.

Even if you mostly use R for stats, you still need a good bit of
python to munge the data files - R is nice for importing CSVs, but
lots of manipulations are painful.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 13:15:37 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:15:37 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261314550.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Steve Cayford wrote:

> I would second the perl vote. One-liners, system administration, web 
> applications, it runs the gamut and scales well. Just follow best 
> practices to keep code clean and manageable.

Is that because you know both Perl and Python and you think that someone 
who is highly skilled with Python should also learn Perl?

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 13:18:48 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:18:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <20100326180900.GX2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326180900.GX2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261316160.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:15:40PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> It always depends on what your goals are.  For aspiring scientists, 
>> especially those who need to do statistical and/or probabilistic work, 
>> I recommend learning GNU R.  It also makes nice graphs.  It is the king 
>> of the stat packages now and that will continue.
>
> Matplotlib (a python library) by default produces better-looking graphs 
> than R.  You can of course tweak both, but for quick graphs I prefer the 
> former.

Very interesting.  Are there good screenshots somewhere?  Is it hard to 
learn to make graphs in Matplotlib starting from, say, a tab-delimited 
data file?


>> Once they've learned some R, if they want more flexibility for more 
>> general kinds of programming, I would recommend Python.  I'm not using 
>> it myself, but it seems to be the way to go today.  I've talked with a 
>> lot of people about it and that's where I stand.
>
> Even if you mostly use R for stats, you still need a good bit of python 
> to munge the data files - R is nice for importing CSVs, but lots of 
> manipulations are painful.

True, but it depends on the original formt of the data.  I usually use 
perl because I don't know python.  R has a lot of import functionality in 
the base package and in add-ons.

Mike


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Mar 26 13:22:21 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:22:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261314550.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261314550.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261321390.3388@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Mike Miller wrote:

> Is that because you know both Perl and Python and you think that someone
> who is highly skilled with Python should also learn Perl?

I think someone who's really skilled in Python should enjoy Python. If 
you're really skilled at Python and feel like learning Perl, too, that's 
really the only reason to do it.


-Yaron

--


From kc0iog at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 13:19:58 2010
From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:19:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Steve Cayford <strayf at freeshell.org> wrote:
> I would second the perl vote. One-liners, system administration, web
> applications, it runs the gamut and scales well. Just follow best practices
> to keep code clean and manageable.

I'll third perl.  The synax (mostly) makes sense, and you have the
option to precompile or not.  I wrote a really weird app for work in
Perl (my first REAL coding project) and I really like coding in it.
Much more than PHP, which isn't bastardized perl so much as just a bad
idea.

Serious work (hardware calls, memory mangement) sometimes requires
C/C++, though I actually had better luck with perl handling PID forks
and stuff that I would expect C++ to do well.  My C++ code actually
crashed after iteration #2 of vfork(), never figured out why.  Now
remember, I have no clue what I'm doing.  I don't know why my code
works, it just happens to.  I probably could have made C++ work well
but I gave up and went back to perl.

Python was all the rage for awhile, and has some really nice
characteristics.   After writing an app in perl I really didn't feel
like changing course and re-writing the whole thing in python because
someone told me it was better.  Again, YMMV.  I really don't know
why/if python is awesome.

When all else fails, I go back to my DOS 3.2/GW-BASIC floppy set and
start hacking the code the way I did when I first learned to program.

Brian


From strayf at freeshell.org  Fri Mar 26 13:55:58 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 13:55:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261314550.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261314550.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4BAD033E.5020904@freeshell.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Steve Cayford wrote:
> 
>> I would second the perl vote. One-liners, system administration, web 
>> applications, it runs the gamut and scales well. Just follow best 
>> practices to keep code clean and manageable.
> 
> Is that because you know both Perl and Python and you think that someone 
> who is highly skilled with Python should also learn Perl?

I don't really know Python as well as that, so no. I just enjoy working in 
Perl and it does what I need. I've probably become a bit too complacent 
about just sticking with what I already know, but I got tired of spending 
all my time on learning curves. Next time I feel inspired I'd like to 
invest in learning a really different language like Haskell or Smalltalk or 
something.

-Steve


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 26 14:13:10 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 14:13:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261316160.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326180900.GX2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261316160.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100326191310.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 01:18:48PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> >> It always depends on what your goals are.  For aspiring scientists, 
> >> especially those who need to do statistical and/or probabilistic work, 
> >> I recommend learning GNU R.  It also makes nice graphs.  It is the king 
> >> of the stat packages now and that will continue.
> >
> > Matplotlib (a python library) by default produces better-looking graphs 
> > than R.  You can of course tweak both, but for quick graphs I prefer the 
> > former.
> 
> Very interesting.  Are there good screenshots somewhere?

http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/gallery.html

   vs.

http://addictedtor.free.fr/graphiques/

>                                                           Is it hard to 
> learn to make graphs in Matplotlib starting from, say, a tab-delimited 
> data file?

Not at all:

   http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/examples/pylab_examples/scatter_demo.html

florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 16:01:32 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:01:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003261401q418e2302k6e703730f4d1cac@mail.gmail.com>

There is no language that is "uber alles".   The domain of the problem
you're solving often points to the languages you might consider.

If you're working right next to the bare metal of hardware, you'll probably
be working in C or C++.   Recently I learned via my job there is a rich
programming environment and library suite centered around the visual basic
environment for interacting with PLC's.  I never would have guessed, but
it's there and it's big.

If you're moving outside the realm of real-time, C & C++ are still options,
but I personally find working with statically typed languages a bit of a
drag.  So I look more towards the "scripted languages" then.  Python, Perl,
Ruby, etc...   I know Perl the best because that's what I had to support the
most at my previous job.  But after over ten years of perl and debugging
perl scripts, I believe perl does not lend itself to maintainable code very
well.  It takes skill to write good perl, whereas Python seems lend itself
to better code from the average joe more quickly.   But really, what drives
me to the scripted languages the most is simply the rich regular-expression
engines that are very easy to use.

As mentioned, heavy math and statistics points in another direction, such as
R, matlab, or specialized libraries in other languages.

If I'm schlepping files around and manipulating processes, then I'll do what
I can in bash.

And if I'm writing setuid wrappers, I'm in C again.   If the
unpredictability of the performance impacts of garbage collectors and so
forth are an issue, then of course I'll find a language that lets me turn it
off and manage my own memory (such as D) or go back to C.  Actually - I'd
just use C.  D is cool, but not mainstream enough yet.

I avoid .NET and Java as much as possible.  Visual Basic is only to be
tolerated when at my place of employment and I'm working with pre-existing
tools.

-Rob




On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:02 PM, r j <ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com> wrote:

> A question on languages.
> What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use them.
> I am a python beginner and i am working through the standard library and
> writing simple scripts using pattern matching. and the sys library to make a
> cross platform easy administration tool. Maybe a web interface later on.
> I also use Bash.
>
> ,Ron
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 16:06:20 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:06:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 55
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13868.1269626354.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.13868.1269626354.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <25f02f41003261406j196b7095pa9f1568b2a3fc15e@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the Google class link. I am more in to app development with
python now, I do like python for lunix and unix administration.
Its about making graphical reports from log files in python nice and useful
:D
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From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 16:24:38 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:24:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003261424n54c463d6xfddadea02b6b3080@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:19 PM, Brian Wall <kc0iog at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Steve Cayford <strayf at freeshell.org>
> wrote:
> > I would second the perl vote. One-liners, system administration, web
> > applications, it runs the gamut and scales well. Just follow best
> practices
> > to keep code clean and manageable.
>
> I'll third perl.  The synax (mostly) makes sense, and you have the
> option to precompile or not.  I wrote a really weird app for work in
> Perl (my first REAL coding project) and I really like coding in it.
> Much more than PHP, which isn't bastardized perl so much as just a bad
> idea.
>
>
> Python was all the rage for awhile, and has some really nice
> characteristics.   After writing an app in perl I really didn't feel
> like changing course and re-writing the whole thing in python because
> someone told me it was better.  Again, YMMV.  I really don't know
> why/if python is awesome.
>
>
It's not any less of a rage.  A few years ago at OSCON I saw a
graph of O'Reilly book sales.  Back when OSCON first started
(OSCON used to be the Perl Conference) it was all about Perl.
But in recent years book sales have surged for Python and Ruby
and I believe that likely correlates closely to the mindshare
each language has (though of course you can't see how many
people purchased books in all three).

Support for object oriented programming was bolted onto perl
after the language had been around for awhile.  Python was
designed from step-1 with object orientation in mind.  That's
why it's implementation is cleaner.  Someone remarked it's
important to know best practices in Perl to write good,
maintanable code.  Perl let's you do things many ways, but
it's not always obvious what the best way is.  And if you've
ever found yourself in the middle of a "list context/scalor-context"
dilemna in the middle of a complicated expresion... yeah.
That's a special kind of hell unique to Perl.  So part of Python's
appeal is that a lot of those issues unique to perl's implementation
don't get in the way of you expressing your thoughts.

In short, often where Perl is kind of mesy - especially with respect
to object oriented programming, Python is nice and clean.  You
just have to accept indentation (white space) matters.

I also think Perl 6 was the worst thing to happen to Perl.  Perl 6
was supposed to "fix perl" and make it better.  At the same time
they decided to write a generic scripted-language-runtime-system
(Parrot) that would generically support Perl 6, Perl 5, Python, Ruby,
whatever - you name it.  Parrot languished and never manifested,
Larry Wall published Apocalypse after Apocalypse, and it kept
never really showing up.    In fact, the best way to see Perl 6
in action was to include implementations of Perl 6 in Perl 5.  So people had

this feeling Perl 6 was never going to show up, and after while the
Perl maintainers realized the best thing to do is just keep on
incrementally improving and supporting Perl 5, which they do very
well now.  Meanwhile, they work on Perl 6, but I'm not sure why.

I spoke to one of the perl release managers recently and he
declared "What people never understood about Perl 6 was
 that it was a research project.  It was never supposed to be
'the next perl'."  That strikes me as revisionist history - I think
Perl 6 WAS supposed to be the next big thing.  Maybe Perl
5.64.00 will be Perl 6.   Anyway, while Perl 5 languished and
then caught it's stride again in the shadow of Perl 6, Python
and Ruby really took off.

Anyway, I don't mean to imply Perl is not useful - it's exceptionally
useful.  And powerful.  I'm just explaining why I think many
people (including myself) find Python very appealing and
a refreshing change of pace.

Cheers,

-Rob
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From ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:26:15 2010
From: ronsmailbox5 at gmail.com (r j)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:26:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 56
In-Reply-To: <mailman.13881.1269637396.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.13881.1269637396.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <25f02f41003261526h6de51a7dh477d7368abe4b9ab@mail.gmail.com>

I am going through python for UNIX and Linux system administration and using
the Ipython shell.
 If you haven't used Ipython before I recommend it as it has many useful
features. http://ipython.scipy.org/moin/Download
Generating graphical reports using python and the nice regular expression
built in re.
compiled and standard expressions.
I am hoping to become a more advanced python user.
,Ron
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:36:31 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:36:31 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261733090.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Brian Wall wrote:

> Python was all the rage for awhile, and has some really nice 
> characteristics.  After writing an app in perl I really didn't feel like 
> changing course and re-writing the whole thing in python because someone 
> told me it was better.  Again, YMMV.  I really don't know why/if python 
> is awesome.


In other words, you like what you know and you don't know if you like what 
you don't know?

Has the rage about Python ended?  I don't know, and I really have "no dog 
in this fight," as they say, but I want to know if there has been a change 
in direction of popularity.

Best,
Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 17:49:38 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 17:49:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <cac10ddc1003261401q418e2302k6e703730f4d1cac@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<cac10ddc1003261401q418e2302k6e703730f4d1cac@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261745230.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Robert Nesius wrote:

> As mentioned, heavy math and statistics points in another direction, 
> such as R, matlab, or specialized libraries in other languages.

Nice comments (deleted here for space).  I would add to the line above 
that GNU Octave (octave.org) is very nice free software system that 
attempts to clone MATLAB functionality so that it can run MATLAB code 
unchanged.  It also has very nice features that MATLAB does not have, and 
a ton of readily available functions and packages written by others.

For me, in my work, with the people I know, I'm pushing R over Octave, but 
if I were in engineering, especially signal processing, I think Octave 
would probably be the better choice.  Also, for people who know MATLAB, 
Octave will be very easy to learn, to say the least.

Mike


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 18:08:54 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:08:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <20100326191310.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326180900.GX2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261316160.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326191310.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261755180.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 01:18:48PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>>> Matplotlib (a python library) by default produces better-looking 
>>> graphs than R.  You can of course tweak both, but for quick graphs I 
>>> prefer the former.
>>
>> Very interesting.  Are there good screenshots somewhere?
>
> http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/gallery.html
>
>   vs.
>
> http://addictedtor.free.fr/graphiques/

That's great.  Of course, in both matplotlib and R galleries we are seeing 
many graphs that are generated from a big bunch of code.  As I am 
currently pretty dedicated to continuing in-depth R studies, I'll mostly 
stick to using R for graphs, but I agree that the matplotlib graphs look 
fantastic and I wouldn't encourage a Python user to learn R just for the 
graphs!


>> Is it hard to learn to make graphs in Matplotlib starting from, say, a 
>> tab-delimited data file?
>
> Not at all:
> 
> http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/examples/pylab_examples/scatter_demo.html

That doesn't seem to import a data file, but I'll take your word for it. 
That code is very simple (in the good sense of the word).

Mike


From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 26 18:28:37 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:28:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261733090.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261733090.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100326232837.GZ2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:36:31PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > Python was all the rage for awhile, and has some really nice 
> > characteristics.  After writing an app in perl I really didn't feel like 
> > changing course and re-writing the whole thing in python because someone 
> > told me it was better.  Again, YMMV.  I really don't know why/if python 
> > is awesome.
> 
> In other words, you like what you know and you don't know if you like what 
> you don't know?
> 
> Has the rage about Python ended?  I don't know, and I really have "no dog 
> in this fight," as they say, but I want to know if there has been a change 
> in direction of popularity.

I like Perl more - it feels more 'natural' to me, as coming from a C
and shell scripting environment.  I wrote a few large (5-10kLoc)
applications in Perl and I found that they are easy to write but hard
to maintain.  These days I'm using Python for all my scripting needs,
and I found no _need_ to go back to Perl.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 26 18:34:31 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:34:31 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 56
In-Reply-To: <25f02f41003261526h6de51a7dh477d7368abe4b9ab@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.13881.1269637396.2412.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<25f02f41003261526h6de51a7dh477d7368abe4b9ab@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100326233431.GB2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:26:15PM -0500, r j wrote:
> I am going through python for UNIX and Linux system administration and using
> the Ipython shell.
>  If you haven't used Ipython before I recommend it as it has many useful
> features. http://ipython.scipy.org/moin/Download
> Generating graphical reports using python and the nice regular expression
> built in re.
> compiled and standard expressions.

Seconded.  iPython is great - with that and Scipy, Python feels more
like Matlab / Mathematica.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From florin at iucha.net  Fri Mar 26 18:33:20 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 18:33:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261755180.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326180900.GX2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261316160.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326191310.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261755180.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100326233320.GA2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 06:08:54PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> >> Is it hard to learn to make graphs in Matplotlib starting from, say, a 
> >> tab-delimited data file?
> >
> > Not at all:
> > 
> > http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/examples/pylab_examples/scatter_demo.html
> 
> That doesn't seem to import a data file, but I'll take your word for it. 
> That code is very simple (in the good sense of the word).

For that, you use the python built-in csv module:

---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<

   import csv

   x = []
   y = []

   dataReader = csv.reader(open('my.csv'), delimiter=',',  quotechar='"')

   # load the first row, as it contains the column names
   header = dataReader.next()

   # read row-wise and append to columns
   for row in spamReader:
      x.append(row[0])
      y.append(row[1])
   dataReader.close()

---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<---8<

Then plot(x, y) should do the trick.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From kris.browne at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 20:02:42 2010
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kris Browne)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 20:02:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <20100326232837.GZ2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261733090.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326232837.GZ2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <8255989d1003261802p71f7665xebdd22367d29bc60@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone were to ask what language of the family to learn at this point,
I'd point towards Ruby. Best parts of Perl and Python's syntax, fully OO end
to end, and provides a language basis for what seems to be the most flexible
RAD web platform around (Rails).

Kris Browne
kris.browne at gmail.com
612-353-6969
612-408-4431
http://www.google.com/profiles/kris.browne

"the least expensive, most bug-free line of code is the one you didn't have
to write." - Steve Jobs


On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 18:28, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:36:31PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> > > Python was all the rage for awhile, and has some really nice
> > > characteristics.  After writing an app in perl I really didn't feel
> like
> > > changing course and re-writing the whole thing in python because
> someone
> > > told me it was better.  Again, YMMV.  I really don't know why/if python
> > > is awesome.
> >
> > In other words, you like what you know and you don't know if you like
> what
> > you don't know?
> >
> > Has the rage about Python ended?  I don't know, and I really have "no dog
> > in this fight," as they say, but I want to know if there has been a
> change
> > in direction of popularity.
>
> I like Perl more - it feels more 'natural' to me, as coming from a C
> and shell scripting environment.  I wrote a few large (5-10kLoc)
> applications in Perl and I found that they are easy to write but hard
> to maintain.  These days I'm using Python for all my scripting needs,
> and I found no _need_ to go back to Perl.
>
> Cheers,
> florin
>
> --
> Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
>      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Mar 26 21:06:33 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:06:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <8255989d1003261802p71f7665xebdd22367d29bc60@mail.gmail.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<2c6699da1003261119i6edbfc8cr4fa6bb787babe22b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261733090.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326232837.GZ2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<8255989d1003261802p71f7665xebdd22367d29bc60@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003262056150.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, Kris Browne wrote:

> If anyone were to ask what language of the family to learn at this 
> point, I'd point towards Ruby. Best parts of Perl and Python's syntax, 
> fully OO end to end, and provides a language basis for what seems to be 
> the most flexible RAD web platform around (Rails).


For web apps and database frontends, it does really well.  I've been very 
impressed with what our programmers have done with it for our data entry 
system, and for other data management work.  There also is a Ruby or RoR 
interface for R that we've used to make graphs.  Maybe matplotlib was 
another option, but I didn't know about it.  The graphing had to be very 
flexible and precise (accepting varying numbers of variables for a bar 
graph that always had to fit in a certain space and display various 
labels).  R did that well after being called by Ruby with certain 
parameters specified.

Mike


From dave at sherohman.org  Sat Mar 27 05:24:00 2010
From: dave at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 05:24:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages (was:  tclug-list Digest, Vol 63,
	Issue	53 off topic)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261228060.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261228060.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100327102400.GI450@sherohman.org>

tl;dr summary:  I'll (++n)th Perl as my primary language.  I know it, I
like it, and, gosh-darnit, it's just fun to use.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:31:12PM -0500, Mike Miller wrote:
> It seems like the conventional wisdom these days is that Perl is hard to 
> manage for larger projects and Python is easier to read and share.  I 
> really don't know, personally, but this is what I've heard several times 
> from seemingly independent sources.

That definitely is the conventional wisdom, but how trustworthy is
conventional wisdom (on this or anything else)?  There are currently a
lot of people trying to change that impression under the banner of
"Modern Perl", although I can't honestly say how effective the attempt
is being.  The main focus of this is on the Enlightened Perl
Organization's "Perl Iron Man Blogging Challenge" at
http://ironman.enlightenedperl.org/


On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 04:24:38PM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
> Support for object oriented programming was bolted onto perl
> after the language had been around for awhile.  Python was
> designed from step-1 with object orientation in mind.  That's
> why it's implementation is cleaner.
<snip>
> In short, often where Perl is kind of mesy - especially with respect
> to object oriented programming, Python is nice and clean.

If you have particular issues with OO in Perl, how well does Moose
(particularly in conjunction with MooseX::Declare and
MooseX::Has::Sugar) address them?  Personally, plain old blessed-
reference Perl OO doesn't bother me in the least (I like getting my
hands dirty in the guts of my code), but here's one of the classes from
my current online-game side project:

--- cut here ---
package PRangers::Cargo;

use MooseX::Declare;

class PRangers::Cargo
  with KiokuDB::Role::Intrinsic {
use MooseX::Has::Sugar;
use PRangers::Item;

has item => ( isa => 'PRangers::Item', ro, required );

has qty => ( isa => 'Num', rw, required );
around qty (Num $new_value?) {
  return $self->$orig unless defined $new_value;
  $new_value = 0 if $new_value < 0;
  $self->_clear_calculated;
  $self->$orig($new_value);
}
method add_qty    (Num $delta) { $self->qty($self->qty + $delta) }
method remove_qty (Num $delta) { $self->qty($self->qty - $delta) }

has [ qw( mass volume ) ] => ( isa => 'Num', ro, lazy_build );
method _build_mass   { $self->item->mass   * $self->qty }
method _build_volume { $self->item->volume * $self->qty }

method _clear_calculated {
  $self->clear_mass;
  $self->clear_volume;
}

}

1;
--- cut here ---

That doesn't feel overly messy to me.  How about you?

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 04:24:38PM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
> Someone remarked it's important to know best practices in Perl to
> write good, maintanable code.

Knowing how to write good, maintainable code is important in any
language.  The more freedom a language gives you, the more important
this becomes.  Is Perl more demanding than most languages in this area?
Absolutely.  But I feel that it's a reasonable price to pay for the
flexibility in expressing my thoughts that Perl provides.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 04:24:38PM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
> You just have to accept indentation (white space) matters.

When I first heard about Python, my initial reaction was "I could never
trust a language with syntactically-significant whitespace."

When I finally tried Python, I have to admit that, aside from a little
initial confusion about the rules regarding it, the whitespace thing
didn't bother me at all.  A ton of other things did, though.  Perhaps it
was just lack of familiarity, but I felt constantly hamstrung by having
to work out how to think like Guido instead of being able to express my
thoughts directly.

I'm not, by any means, trying to say that there's anything wrong with
Python or that Perl is objectively "better", but Perl works the way my
mind works, so I like it.  Python doesn't, so I prefer to avoid it.
That's what works for me; YMMV.

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 04:24:38PM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
> I also think Perl 6 was the worst thing to happen to Perl.  Perl 6
> was supposed to "fix perl" and make it better.

Maybe, maybe not.  On the flip side, Perl 6 has inspired a lot of new
things which have gone into Perl 5 and Perl 6 is often credited with
being the cause of the current "Perl Renaissance"/"Modern Perl"/
"Enlightened Perl" push to overcome the language's historical baggage.

I really do wish it had been named something different, though, so that
people wouldn't be assuming that Perl 5 is now an evolutionary dead end.
It isn't, at least not in the short-to-medium term - if anything, it
seems to be under heavier development and releasing more frequently now
than any time in the last several years - but it's natural to expect
that Perl 6 is intended to supercede Perl 5, no matter how many times
the core devs state that they're "two separate languages in the Perl
family, like C and C++", plus it means that, if both lines continue,
we'll eventually end up with Perl 5.420.0 alongside Perl 12.0.0.  Bleah!

-- 
Dave Sherohman


From florin at iucha.net  Sat Mar 27 08:27:00 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 08:27:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages (was:  tclug-list Digest, Vol 63,
	Issue	53 off topic)
In-Reply-To: <20100327102400.GI450@sherohman.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261228060.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100327102400.GI450@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <20100327132700.GC2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 05:24:00AM -0500, Dave Sherohman wrote:
> tl;dr summary:  I'll (++n)th Perl as my primary language.  I know it, I
> like it, and, gosh-darnit, it's just fun to use.

Indeed.

> --- cut here ---
> package PRangers::Cargo;
> 
> use MooseX::Declare;
> 
> class PRangers::Cargo
>   with KiokuDB::Role::Intrinsic {
> use MooseX::Has::Sugar;
> use PRangers::Item;
> 
> has item => ( isa => 'PRangers::Item', ro, required );
> 
> has qty => ( isa => 'Num', rw, required );
> around qty (Num $new_value?) {
>   return $self->$orig unless defined $new_value;
>   $new_value = 0 if $new_value < 0;
>   $self->_clear_calculated;
>   $self->$orig($new_value);
> }
> method add_qty    (Num $delta) { $self->qty($self->qty + $delta) }
> method remove_qty (Num $delta) { $self->qty($self->qty - $delta) }
> 
> has [ qw( mass volume ) ] => ( isa => 'Num', ro, lazy_build );
> method _build_mass   { $self->item->mass   * $self->qty }
> method _build_volume { $self->item->volume * $self->qty }
> 
> method _clear_calculated {
>   $self->clear_mass;
>   $self->clear_volume;
> }
> 
> }
> 
> 1;
> --- cut here ---

class PRangersCargo():

   def __init__(self):

      self.item = PRangersItem()
      self.qty  = 0

   def addQty(self, delta)

      self.qty += delta

   def removeQty(self, delta)

      self.qty -= delta

   def mass(self):

      return self.item.mass * self.qty

   def volume(self):

      return self.item.volume * self.qty


> That doesn't feel overly messy to me.  How about you?

Python looks more clean and elegant to my eyes, closer to the
pseudo-code.  I could show Python to a non-programming accountant or
doctor and they could follow what the code is doing without getting
distracted by arrows, double arrows or dollar signs.  I use C/C++ most
of my days to the arrows don't scare me.

> > You just have to accept indentation (white space) matters.
> 
> When I first heard about Python, my initial reaction was "I could never
> trust a language with syntactically-significant whitespace."

It smelled funny, indeed.

> When I finally tried Python, I have to admit that, aside from a little
> initial confusion about the rules regarding it, the whitespace thing
> didn't bother me at all.  A ton of other things did, though.  Perhaps it
> was just lack of familiarity, but I felt constantly hamstrung by having
> to work out how to think like Guido instead of being able to express my
> thoughts directly.

I have to hit the Python manual often even for simple things like list
or string methods while I haven't opened the Camel book in ages.  But
those might be quirks of naming things - on the fundamental level,
Python is beautiful.

> I'm not, by any means, trying to say that there's anything wrong with
> Python or that Perl is objectively "better", but Perl works the way my
> mind works, so I like it.  Python doesn't, so I prefer to avoid it.
> That's what works for me; YMMV.

Perl is like playing, Python is like working.  One is messy and fun,
the other one is clean and revenue producing 8^)  Can't have one
without the ooooooother.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From john.meier at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 00:00:25 2010
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:00:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] CLASSIFIED : 2 old laptops
Message-ID: <65293fcc1003272200u445393ccnf3bb1f08d0c09382@mail.gmail.com>

Taking offers on 2 laptops:

#1: ?Compaq Armada 1750
Pentium II 332.6 MHz
120 Mb memory
Floppy
cdrom
3 Gb Hd
Vector linux 6 light installed
800x600 on a 12" screen has tv out but not tested
ES1869  ESS audio
Battery held out for 25 minutes and was down to 90% - then I got sick
of waiting :)

Played an mp3 just fine
Played an avi of Lost full screen with mplayer - looked good but
didn't hear audio - other audio does work - just didn't fuzt around
getting mplayer to play audio.
Popped in a RAlink Wireless G PCMCIA card, was able to connect with
WPA to my home network.
PCMCIA card not included


#2  Compaq Armada  7800
Pentium II 266 MHz
250 Mb memory
Cdrom
30 Gb hd 10 for system 20  for /home
Vector linux installed and updated
1024x768 on a 13.5 " screen
ES1879 Audio
Battery is no good

Played mp3 and Lost avi just fine.
RAlink wireless G PCMCIA card worked just great
PCMCIA card not included


Contact me at john.meier @ gmail.com if interested.


From jpschewe at mtu.net  Sun Mar 28 17:27:28 2010
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:27:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
Message-ID: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>

I'm thinking about replacing my computer and trying to find a good
well-supported video card under Linux. I want to avoid any of the binary
drivers as I've had problems with the nvidia ones interferring with the
SATA controller. I don't need 3D for much, I just run gnome with compiz
turned on. What's a good video card chipset to look for?

-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.



From cncole at earthlink.net  Sun Mar 28 17:43:23 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 17:43:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLOEBBDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jon Schewe
> Sent: Sunday, March 28, 2010 5:27 PM
>
> I'm thinking about replacing my computer and trying to find a good
> well-supported video card under Linux. I want to avoid any of the binary
> drivers as I've had problems with the nvidia ones interferring with the
> SATA controller. I don't need 3D for much, I just run gnome with compiz
> turned on. What's a good video card chipset to look for?


I'm not up on such problems, but I think you wish to avoid "proprietary" drivers.  All ready-to-use drivers are in binary (or octal
or hex..), aren't they?


Chuck



From florin at iucha.net  Sun Mar 28 19:26:26 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 19:26:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <20100329002626.GD2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 05:27:28PM -0500, Jon Schewe wrote:
> I'm thinking about replacing my computer and trying to find a good
> well-supported video card under Linux. I want to avoid any of the binary
> drivers as I've had problems with the nvidia ones interferring with the
> SATA controller. I don't need 3D for much, I just run gnome with compiz
> turned on. What's a good video card chipset to look for?

I searched in the usual places [1] and [2] but they don't spell what
what capabilities are supported on what hardware.  But this might help:

   http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=ati_r600_mesa_3d&num=1

Cheers,
florin

1: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/radeon
2: http://wiki.x.org/wiki/radeonhd

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Mar 28 21:19:58 2010
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 21:19:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:
> I'm thinking about replacing my computer and trying to find a good
> well-supported video card under Linux. I want to avoid any of the binary
> drivers as I've had problems with the nvidia ones interferring with the
> SATA controller. I don't need 3D for much, I just run gnome with compiz
> turned on. What's a good video card chipset to look for?
>

I'd aim for Intel graphics.  Intel completely open-sourced their
graphics drivers.
Not only is the hardware interface publicly documented, but the open source
drivers are also provisioned right from the hardware vendor.

Here's the hardware support matrix.  http://intellinuxgraphics.org/user.html


-Rob


From florin at iucha.net  Sun Mar 28 23:01:50 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 23:01:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 09:19:58PM -0500, Robert Nesius wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 5:27 PM, Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:
> > I'm thinking about replacing my computer and trying to find a good
> > well-supported video card under Linux. I want to avoid any of the binary
> > drivers as I've had problems with the nvidia ones interferring with the
> > SATA controller. I don't need 3D for much, I just run gnome with compiz
> > turned on. What's a good video card chipset to look for?
> 
> I'd aim for Intel graphics.  Intel completely open-sourced their
> graphics drivers.

With one notable exception, those included in the Poulsbo chipset (I
have a Dell Mini 10v with that chipset).  Other than that I love the
Intel chipsets and integrated graphics in my and my wife's Thinkpads.

> Not only is the hardware interface publicly documented, but the open source
> drivers are also provisioned right from the hardware vendor.
> 
> Here's the hardware support matrix.  http://intellinuxgraphics.org/user.html

The trouble with that is that you can't buy an add-on PCI express card
to upgrade an older machine or to use it with an AMD processor.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Mar 29 08:11:49 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:11:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 63, Issue 53 off topic
In-Reply-To: <20100326191310.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>;
	from florin@iucha.net on Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 02:13:10PM -0500
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261210510.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326180900.GX2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261316160.30119@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100326191310.GY2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <20100329081148.G23809@real-time.com>

On 03/26 02:13 , Florin Iucha wrote:
> http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/gallery.html
> 
>    vs.
> 
> http://addictedtor.free.fr/graphiques/
> 
> >                                                           Is it hard to 
> > learn to make graphs in Matplotlib starting from, say, a tab-delimited 
> > data file?
> 
> Not at all:
> 
>    http://matplotlib.sourceforge.net/examples/pylab_examples/scatter_demo.html


Wow. That's pretty cool. Really simple, yet powerful.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 15:18:52 2010
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:18:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>

>> Not only is the hardware interface publicly documented, but the open source
>> drivers are also provisioned right from the hardware vendor.
>>
>> Here's the hardware support matrix. ?http://intellinuxgraphics.org/user.html


Now if the hardware and drivers didn't suck, things would be great.

To clarify, they are probably fine for 2D.  But for anything 3D... too
expensive, too poor of performance.  Also, probably lacking when it
comes to watching high-quality videos.

I've had bad experiences with ATIs drivers (on windows and linux) and
have since only bought NVidia.

Plus, NVidia supports VDPAU - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDPAU -
which is awesome for my latest project - a mythtv box.

Basically, offload all work of watching full 1080i HD video streams to
the video card.

You have to step all the way up to at least the Intel GMA X4500HD
motherboard video chipset to even think about full HD... and even
then, the performance of that chipset is laughable compared to the
cheapest standalone videocards from ATI or NVidia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_GMA

And when I was researching the x4500HD under linux, all I ran into was
loads of failure reports, because the intel driver is so poor at the
moment.

With the NVidia driver, everything just works beautifully.  I can
decode full HD, or h.264 encoded video with close to 0 CPU usage.

Driver not "open"?  eh.  I don't care.  I'd much rather have a closed
driver that is actually supported and takes full advantage of the
hardware, then an "open" driver that sucks.

Dan


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Mar 29 15:26:36 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:26:36 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100329202636.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 03:18:52PM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> I've had bad experiences with ATIs drivers (on windows and linux) and

I've had bad experiences with most of the hardware I've played with.

> have since only bought NVidia.

Good for you.

> Driver not "open"?  eh.  I don't care.

The original poster and I do care, because...

>                                         I'd much rather have a closed
> driver that is actually supported

... the support cycle of the company might not overlap with the
intended lifecycle of the piece of hardware and I'd rather not toss
out a good piece of hardware just because the OS changed it's APIs and
the manufacturer decided that they got my money two years ago and
there is no point in giving me a working driver now.

>                                   and takes full advantage of the
> hardware, then an "open" driver that sucks.

The open driver will become better over time.  There is no guarantee
for the closed driver.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 15:48:21 2010
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 15:48:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <20100329202636.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329202636.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <82f04dc41003291348o6b625a46w42829ee18ed77562@mail.gmail.com>

> ... the support cycle of the company might not overlap with the
> intended lifecycle of the piece of hardware and I'd rather not toss
> out a good piece of hardware just because the OS changed it's APIs and
> the manufacturer decided that they got my money two years ago and
> there is no point in giving me a working driver now.
>
>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? and takes full advantage of the
>> hardware, then an "open" driver that sucks.
>
> The open driver will become better over time. ?There is no guarantee
> for the closed driver.
>

So you will buy hardware which you can't use now, (such as onboard
h264 decoding) because of a poor driver, with the hope that the driver
will be written by someone... someday... (which there is no guarantee)
over hardware which does work today - and you could use forever, as
long as you don't update your other software to an incompatible
version....

I don't follow the logic.

If intel had a linux driver that actually worked properly, and
utilized all the hardware they are selling, that would be great.  But
to date, they don't.  And they use the "its open" excuse to pretend
that its not their fault the driver still sucks, when the reality is
that they just don't put the necessary resources into it.

Meanwhile, NVidia at least is putting their own resources into writing
a _good_ driver for linux.  Would it be nice if it were open?  Sure.
But I'm not going to reward Intel with a hardware purchase simply
because they throw out some specifications and say there you go, you
can write a driver if you like....

 Dan


From florin at iucha.net  Mon Mar 29 16:19:08 2010
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 16:19:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc41003291348o6b625a46w42829ee18ed77562@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329202636.GG2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291348o6b625a46w42829ee18ed77562@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100329211908.GH2867@iris.iucha.org>

On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 03:48:21PM -0500, Dan Armbrust wrote:
> > ... the support cycle of the company might not overlap with the
> > intended lifecycle of the piece of hardware and I'd rather not toss
> > out a good piece of hardware just because the OS changed it's APIs and
> > the manufacturer decided that they got my money two years ago and
> > there is no point in giving me a working driver now.
> >
> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? and takes full advantage of the
> >> hardware, then an "open" driver that sucks.
> >
> > The open driver will become better over time. ?There is no guarantee
> > for the closed driver.
> 
> So you will buy hardware which you can't use now, (such as onboard
> h264 decoding) because of a poor driver, with the hope that the driver
> will be written by someone... someday... (which there is no guarantee)
> over hardware which does work today - and you could use forever, as
> long as you don't update your other software to an incompatible
> version....
> 
> I don't follow the logic.

Because it's not my logic.  I will buy hardware that works now even if
it's not 100% stable or easy to configure or it needs a driver fetched
from somebody's git tree and not coming on a silver disk or from an
apt repository somewhere.  I will not buy a video card that will not
display anything on a screen, but if _I don't need_ h264 decoding right
now, and the hardware supports it, and I can buy the hardware and
install it in my existing system, and there is some hope on an open
driver, I'll give the $50 to this guy over that other guy.

> If intel had a linux driver that actually worked properly, and
> utilized all the hardware they are selling, that would be great.  But
> to date, they don't.  And they use the "its open" excuse to pretend
> that its not their fault the driver still sucks, when the reality is
> that they just don't put the necessary resources into it.

The Intel driver uses less power than either AMD or Nvidia on my
laptops and that's one of the most important attributes for me.  I
don't decode x264 full-screen, as the screens are 1200x800 and
1024x768.  It works for me, for three years now.

> Meanwhile, NVidia at least is putting their own resources into writing
> a _good_ driver for linux.

Intel actually employs a number of graphics engineers: Keith Packard,
Eric Anholt, Carl Worth that are constantly working on X.org and
various Intel drivers.  Their work advances the state of the art for
Intel, AMD and Nvidia (the nouveau driver) hardware.

>                             Would it be nice if it were open?  Sure.
> But I'm not going to reward Intel with a hardware purchase simply
> because they throw out some specifications and say there you go, you
> can write a driver if you like....

Whatever works for you.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Bruce Schneier expects the Spanish Inquisition.
      http://geekz.co.uk/schneierfacts/fact/163
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From jpschewe at mtu.net  Mon Mar 29 20:15:34 2010
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:15:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>

On 03/29/2010 03:18 PM, Dan Armbrust wrote:
>>> Not only is the hardware interface publicly documented, but the open source
>>> drivers are also provisioned right from the hardware vendor.
>>>
>>> Here's the hardware support matrix.  http://intellinuxgraphics.org/user.html
>>>       
>
> Now if the hardware and drivers didn't suck, things would be great.
>
> To clarify, they are probably fine for 2D.  But for anything 3D... too
> expensive, too poor of performance.  Also, probably lacking when it
> comes to watching high-quality videos.
>   
Define "high-quality videos"? Really 2D is most of what I do. I run
compiz in gnome, but don't need to. I don't do any 3D gaming. I watch
videos and TV off the web and that's it. Mostly I write software with
the machine.

> I've had bad experiences with ATIs drivers (on windows and linux)
That's too bad.
>  and
> have since only bought NVidia.
>
>   
Understood.
> With the NVidia driver, everything just works beautifully.  I can
> decode full HD, or h.264 encoded video with close to 0 CPU usage.
>
> Driver not "open"?  eh.  I don't care.  I'd much rather have a closed
> driver that is actually supported and takes full advantage of the
> hardware, then an "open" driver that sucks.
>
>   
I'd prefer open, but right now my real problem is that the driver is
broken. Here's one of many posts about the problem.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=140371


-- 
Jon Schewe | http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
If you see an attachment named signature.asc, this is my digital
signature. See http://www.gnupg.org for more information.



From mfunger at arbita.net  Mon Mar 29 20:38:11 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew F. Unger)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:38:11 -0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux training
Message-ID: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A0108C156@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>

Good afternoon all,

 

I'm looking for some formalized Linux training. Here's the background:
I've been working primarily MS shops for the better part of the past 10
years. When I transitioned into my current position, it was with the
understanding that I didn't really know anything about Linux. After a
little of this, and a little of that, I'm supporting our production data
center and even though I can RTFM and do so frequently, I'd like
something a little more systemic than FIGURE OUT HOW THIS WORKS AND FIX
IT RIGHT NOW.

Any suggestions?


Thanks,


Matt Unger

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From mfunger at arbita.net  Mon Mar 29 20:42:12 2010
From: mfunger at arbita.net (Matthew F. Unger)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 01:42:12 -0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traning
Message-ID: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A55@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>

Good morning all,

 

I'm looking for some Linux training and am looking for some advice.
Here's the background: I started working for my current company a year
ago. I got hired on as a Windows and Cisco admin. The environment isn't
that complex, and before long, I'm in charge of the production Linux
servers at our data center. It seems odd that I, of all people, am
apparently the subject matter expert, but that's where we are. So, I've
had a year of pretty intensive down in the guys digging around and
trying not to break stuff too badly.

Well, last week, I finally broke something really well and both my
bosses and I are kind of fed up with me taking a while to figure things
out. So, I'm looking for advice on where to go to get something a little
more systemic and formalized than my pokey
RTFM-whenever-something-breaks.

 

Tell me, O Great and Wise TCLUGers, what say ye?

 

Thanks in advance for your suggestions,


Matt Unger 

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From ryanjcole at me.com  Mon Mar 29 20:49:03 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 20:49:03 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux training
In-Reply-To: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A0108C156@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
References: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A0108C156@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
Message-ID: <4C329D2B-2E20-4807-8106-A7C22AB7DD5B@me.com>

Ok...

What is it that you broke? Perhaps someone can help you there first.

--
Ryan


On Mar 9, 2010, at 4:29 PM, Matthew F. Unger wrote:

> Good afternoon all,
>  
> I?m looking for some formalized Linux training. Here?s the background: I?ve been working primarily MS shops for the better part of the past 10 years. When I transitioned into my current position, it was with the understanding that I didn?t really know anything about Linux. After a little of this, and a little of that, I?m supporting our production data center and even though I can RTFM and do so frequently, I?d like something a little more systemic than FIGURE OUT HOW THIS WORKS AND FIX IT RIGHT NOW.
> Any suggestions?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Matt Unger
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Mon Mar 29 21:06:51 2010
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 21:06:51 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>
Message-ID: <82f04dc41003291906w6c164222v34963dd8686e2e39@mail.gmail.com>

> Define "high-quality videos"? Really 2D is most of what I do. I run
> compiz in gnome, but don't need to. I don't do any 3D gaming. I watch
> videos and TV off the web and that's it. Mostly I write software with
> the machine.

Since I'm getting into MythTV, I get lots of 1080i content - ~ 7 GB
per hour of video.  Stuff that I want to store, I usually encode to
H264.  Both of those take lots of horsepower to decode and
de-interlace for display.  If you can't offload it to the videocard,
the load will eat a pretty major processing power from the system.  I
have laptops that are only a couple years old that can't decode this
type of video at full screen resolution without stuttering / dropping
frames.

But in my mythtv box, with a cheap motherboard, a cheap celeron
processor, and a NVidia GT 220, I have about 5% CPU usage while
playing it.

The other thing you will find is motherboards that have even the best
intel video chipsets (or boards that support the new Intel i3 / i5 /
i7 processors) are quite expensive... and they don't even come close
to the performance of a $70 standalone ATI or NVidia video card.  I
mean... try to find an online benchmark.  They are such different
worlds of performance, they usually don't even compare them with each
other.  Integrated graphics are just really, really bad, compared to
add-on cards.  If you want to play any modern 3D game, they just don't
cut it.

But if your mostly writing software with it, I suspect that none of
this will really matter... probably your most important questions are
can it handle my monitor resolution (if you have a high resolution
monitor) and/or can it handle multiple monitors, if you typically use
more than one.

But if you want to watch full-screen online flash video - the more
power the better - this is funny only because it is so true

http://xkcd.com/619/

The hoverover tooltip even specifically mentions the intel driver :-)


> I'd prefer open, but right now my real problem is that the driver is
> broken. Here's one of many posts about the problem.
> http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=140371
>

Ugh.  That sucks... I've got several machines running NVidia, and have
not encountered this... one of the threads I followed from their
seemed to be blaming the SATA chipset, as it afflicted Gigabyte and
ASUS boards using particular video cards and the same chipset... but
ASUS reportedly fixed the problem with a BIOS update.  But no one
seems to have the real answer yet.  Then again, a PCI SATA controller
for $15 is probably a quicker way to avoid the headaches.

Dan


From Dean.Benjamin at mm.com  Mon Mar 29 22:46:35 2010
From: Dean.Benjamin at mm.com (Dean.Benjamin at mm.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 22:46:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traning
In-Reply-To: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A55@GARUDA.recruitusa
	.local>
References: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A55@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20100329222453.0268c5c8@pop.mm.com>

At 3/12/2010 10:13 AM, Matthew F. Unger wrote:
>I'm looking for some Linux training and am looking for some 
>advice. ...


Hire a Linux consultant -- perhaps with expertise in your core 
applications -- to help fix your system, but with the 
understanding that part of the job is to teach you what you need 
to know.  Have him or her explain what s/he's doing, and let you 
do as much of the "driving" as possible.  After your systems are 
back up and running, work out an ongoing partnership, so you can 
phone someone with small problems as they come up.  Bring the 
consultant in once or twice a month, to review your operations 
and suggest ways you can improve, or coach you with tips and 
other reading.  Float wild and crazy ideas you have for your 
company's business, and work shoulder by shoulder with the 
consultant(s) to implement the workable ones.

Such a hands-on, business-focused apprenticeship will rapidly 
develop your own expertise, and will cost about the same as a 
formal training program.  Before long, you'll outgrow the need 
for the consultant's "training wheels".  And your boss will 
(well, should) happily pay for it all.

PS: No, I'm not your guy, but there's plenty of people on this 
list who might be. 



From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 00:16:43 2010
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 00:16:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Need help setting up a proxy for Transmission (I can't
 seem to connect the dots)
Message-ID: <4BB1893B.9000407@gmail.com>

I'm administering a server (running Debian) for a few friends and we
want to use it as a seedbox. I have things working with
transmission-daemon server-side and a remote GUI program of the user's
choice client-side. There is one problem, however. One of the trackers
we use doesn't use a passkey system and requires that any connections
made to it must come from the IP address associated with the account.
This makes it impossible to use a remote machine with it without using a
proxy. Unfortunately, I don't have experience using proxies, so it's
hard to know how to put all the information on the subject I found
scattered across the internet together. Ideally, I'd like to have the
server act as the proxy via Apache (which I already have up and running).

These two pages are helpful:
http://trac.transmissionbt.com/wiki/WebProxy
http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_proxy.html

I think I'm missing some simple step since I wouldn't know what to enter
for proxy information in the remote tool even if I had Apache configured
correctly for it. I'm also new to Apache, using mostly the RTFM approach
to solving problems, and the mod_proxy docs are going a bit over my
head. Some advice from someone experienced with proxies and/or Apache
would be greatly appreciated.


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar 30 08:26:39 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 08:26:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traning
In-Reply-To: <6.1.2.0.2.20100329222453.0268c5c8@pop.mm.com>;
	from Dean.Benjamin@mm.com on Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:46:35PM -0500
References: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A55@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
	<F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A55@GARUDA.recruitusa
	.local> <6.1.2.0.2.20100329222453.0268c5c8@pop.mm.com>
Message-ID: <20100330082639.H23809@real-time.com>

On 03/29 10:46 , Dean.Benjamin at mm.com wrote:
> At 3/12/2010 10:13 AM, Matthew F. Unger wrote:
> >I'm looking for some Linux training and am looking for some 
> >advice. ...
> 
> 
> Hire a Linux consultant -- perhaps with expertise in your core 
> applications -- to help fix your system, 
...
> 
> PS: No, I'm not your guy, but there's plenty of people on this 
> list who might be. 

Real Time Enterprises (hoster of this list for far over a decade) offers
such services, and has offered them for a very long time. Depending on your
time frame, a wide variety of instructional services/mentoring can be
arranged.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com
952-943-8700


From tclug at lizakowski.com  Tue Mar 30 11:01:21 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:01:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201003301101.21640.tclug@lizakowski.com>


bluehost was fairly flexibile, but I don't know their limit on subdomains.  I 
was looking for a $7 wordpress host that would let me point a subdomain at 
them (versus have them as the DNS server).  A lot of cheap services won't do 
that.

Jeremy

On Thursday 25 March 2010 12:51:13 pm Eric Peterson wrote:
> So 1and1 (domain registrar) provides crappy DNS service (only 5
> subdomains per package) and in general I don't really want to host my
> DNS with them. I've been using everydns.net for a long time and have
> had a great experience with them especially for the price. However
> they were recently bought by dyndns which I'm sure will bring an end
> to "Free DNS" soon.
>
> Who do you host your DNS with? Are other registrars more flexible on
> number of subdomains? How much do you pay?
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From mkebob1134 at netscape.net  Tue Mar 30 11:12:57 2010
From: mkebob1134 at netscape.net (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:12:57 -0500 (Central Daylight Time)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux traning
In-Reply-To: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A55@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
References: <F31DF15A847D814E94B1F8E1CA0AE83A01138A55@GARUDA.recruitusa.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.WNT.2.00.1003301040060.2384@bobs_laptop.LCL.local>

Matthew F. Unger cried from the depths of the abyss...

> Well, last week, I finally broke something really well and both my bosses and I are kind of fed up with me taking a while to figure
> things out. So, I?m looking for advice on where to go to get something a little more systemic and formalized than my pokey
> RTFM-whenever-something-breaks.
> 
> Tell me, O Great and Wise TCLUGers, what say ye?

This is probably not the answer you are looking for, but IMHO your OH 
Sh*t! RTFM because I have no idea what just happened and it doesn't work 
anymore is the best way to learn.  Believe me when I say it won't happen 
again, and because you were forced to learn while in the frying pan your 
understanding will grow.  This is of course more stressful than a 
classroom environment.

I was/am kind of in the same situation but the reverse.  I am a long lost 
Unix guy who before I knew it am maintaining several racks of M$ servers.
I have been in a few situation (Exchange migration gone bad, Citrix Pres. 
Server explosions, Domain Controllers not cooperating, etc.) that made me 
pull my hair out.  With the help of manuals & Thank You God for Google I 
was able to always overcome the problem.

As for training, I don't really have any suggestions.

One suggestion might be to move your distro choice over to a 
corporate/enterprise support setup.  Red Hat & Suse offer excellent support 
(cha-ching cha-ching) for a fee of course.  At least if something happens 
that seems out of your league you can pick up the phone and scream 
"HELP!".

One more piece of advice is to collect some(all) junker equipment laying 
around your job (old pc's, laptops, servers, network items, etc).  Setup a 
test environment using the junk.  You can basically 
duplicate your production environment on the junkers, and experiment on 
the test systems first to make sure things will really work.  This is what 
I do (M$ & LINUX), and I cannot tell you how it has saved me time when 
unforeseen things happen due to changes made, etc.  No one cares (or even 
know) if you break a test system(s).
As you discovered, doing this in the real world production environment will 
only result in you being invited into your bosses office with the old "How 
are you?  Why don't you go ahead & shut the door and have a seat." 
routine.

If the junker test environment isn't an option, move your day to day PC to 
a 64-bit OS.  Toss in as much RAM as you can, and load up VMware.  This 
was you can still do the test environment all on your PC.

All this being said, why don't you explain what your problem is you are 
having, and see if we can lend you a hand in getting your stuff back on the road.

Good Luck Brother!

B-o-B









From tclug at lizakowski.com  Tue Mar 30 11:20:55 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:20:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201003301120.55730.tclug@lizakowski.com>


Why is the domain industry so shady?  Not just one or two players, but pretty 
much the whole industry.  It makes it really frustrating to find a good vendor.

It shouldn't be like the porn industry.  Domain names are just a matter of a 
database entry, using decades-old technology.  It should be boring, cut&dried, 
and a commodity by now.

Jeremy

On Thursday 25 March 2010 7:46:37 pm Erik Anderson wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I'm using Name.com as my domain registrar, and they provide all of my
> > DNS with the registration, and I've been very happy with their service
> > so far.  (No barrage of ads or other nonsense - just to the point.)  I
> > don't believe they have any of the kinds of limits you referenced, and
> > the prices vary by TLD and are quite reasonable.  A number of years
> > ago I used a free DNS-only service called ZoneEdit, which is still
> > around.  That was limited in number of domains and/or subdomains in
> > some way - I don't remember the specifics.
>
> I also use name.com for domain registrations. I used their DNS service
> for a couple short weeks until I discovered that they choose to do
> NXDOMAIN hijacking on invalid subdomains. After discovering that, I
> promptly pointed my DNS over to linode's DNS service. I had an account
> there and get free DNS hosting along with it if I choose. I've been
> much happier with that service than with name.com's.




From ryanjcole at me.com  Tue Mar 30 11:26:13 2010
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:26:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <201003301120.55730.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<254fef0f1003251701u128eac55l955da00a8091c8b1@mail.gmail.com>
	<fc40260f1003251746s6c23ed69h5b240eb5147646d4@mail.gmail.com>
	<201003301120.55730.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <5256732D-5499-436C-B2AA-6C3E2D85BB51@me.com>

Sounds like we need to fill a void?


On Mar 30, 2010, at 11:20 AM, Jeremy wrote:

> 
> Why is the domain industry so shady?  Not just one or two players, but pretty 
> much the whole industry.  It makes it really frustrating to find a good vendor.
> 
> It shouldn't be like the porn industry.  Domain names are just a matter of a 
> database entry, using decades-old technology.  It should be boring, cut&dried, 
> and a commodity by now.
> 
> Jeremy
> 
> On Thursday 25 March 2010 7:46:37 pm Erik Anderson wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:01 PM, Tony Yarusso <tonyyarusso at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'm using Name.com as my domain registrar, and they provide all of my
>>> DNS with the registration, and I've been very happy with their service
>>> so far.  (No barrage of ads or other nonsense - just to the point.)  I
>>> don't believe they have any of the kinds of limits you referenced, and
>>> the prices vary by TLD and are quite reasonable.  A number of years
>>> ago I used a free DNS-only service called ZoneEdit, which is still
>>> around.  That was limited in number of domains and/or subdomains in
>>> some way - I don't remember the specifics.
>> 
>> I also use name.com for domain registrations. I used their DNS service
>> for a couple short weeks until I discovered that they choose to do
>> NXDOMAIN hijacking on invalid subdomains. After discovering that, I
>> promptly pointed my DNS over to linode's DNS service. I had an account
>> there and get free DNS hosting along with it if I choose. I've been
>> much happier with that service than with name.com's.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar 30 11:34:17 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:34:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <82f04dc41003291906w6c164222v34963dd8686e2e39@mail.gmail.com>;
	from daniel.armbrust.list@gmail.com on Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at
	09:06:51PM -0500
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>
	<82f04dc41003291906w6c164222v34963dd8686e2e39@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100330113417.J23809@real-time.com>

On 03/29 09:06 , Dan Armbrust wrote:
> But if you want to watch full-screen online flash video - the more
> power the better - this is funny only because it is so true
> 
> http://xkcd.com/619/
> 
> The hoverover tooltip even specifically mentions the intel driver :-)

How much does the video card affect Flash playback? I would have thought it
was a largely CPU-bound problem, but I guess it depends on how much the
implementation uses the X video hooks.

On a slightly unrelated issue; does anyone else find Flash on Linux crashes
their browser more than it does on Windows?

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From mailinglists at soul-dev.com  Tue Mar 30 11:47:49 2010
From: mailinglists at soul-dev.com (Mr. MailingLists)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 11:47:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: DNS provider
In-Reply-To: <201003301101.21640.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <579c6fd31003251051s4bddd899xa6473bc56752185e@mail.gmail.com>
	<201003301101.21640.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <4BB22B35.4040605@soul-dev.com>

  I guess I will throw in my 2c to this conversation. For a couple of 
the domains I host I have been using DTDNS for secondary (but 
authoritative) axfr service. Its 5 bucks a year and they are very loose 
with there restrictions/tos and have a decentralized base of name 
servers located in different locations around the US. If you can AXFR 
it, they will host it.

ns1.dtdns.com.        IN      A               64.156.29.49
ns2.dtdns.com.        IN      A               67.228.106.194
ns3.dtdns.com.        IN      A               75.126.80.224
ns1.twisted4life.com.   IN      A           202.157.182.142

Also, if you need a free secondary AXFR service, I also recommend 
twisted4life.com (located in Malaysia), but they only have 1 ns.

I really dislike proprietary tools some vendors use (Godaddy, and the 
like), partially due to TOS restrictions, but also because most are ass 
hats. My recommended configuration is set up 1 or 2 local NSs and use a 
secondary NS for authoritative purposes. This reduces all the bandwidth 
or authoritative lookups, leaving only your zones to axfr, and no 
authority on any of your IPs.

BIND9 views are sweet too!

On 3/30/2010 11:01 AM, Jeremy wrote:
> bluehost was fairly flexibile, but I don't know their limit on subdomains.  I
> was looking for a $7 wordpress host that would let me point a subdomain at
> them (versus have them as the DNS server).  A lot of cheap services won't do
> that.
>
> Jeremy
>
> On Thursday 25 March 2010 12:51:13 pm Eric Peterson wrote:
>> So 1and1 (domain registrar) provides crappy DNS service (only 5
>> subdomains per package) and in general I don't really want to host my
>> DNS with them. I've been using everydns.net for a long time and have
>> had a great experience with them especially for the price. However
>> they were recently bought by dyndns which I'm sure will bring an end
>> to "Free DNS" soon.
>>
>> Who do you host your DNS with? Are other registrars more flexible on
>> number of subdomains? How much do you pay?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Eric
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From tclug at lizakowski.com  Tue Mar 30 12:41:18 2010
From: tclug at lizakowski.com (Jeremy)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:41:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>

> There is no language that is "uber alles".   The domain of the problem
> you're solving often points to the languages you might consider.

Yes indeed.  Each has pros/cons.

Perl is powerful, and has lots of libraries.  But TMWTDI often results in 
unmaintainable code, particularly if someone else has to take over the 
project.  Good for job security :)  

Java is very formal, thus fairly well organized.  I find it somewhat elegant in 
that sense.  But it leads to 'bureacracy' in the code, such as factory factory 
factories.  Easily outsourced to India.

PHP is in the c-like family of languages, but much more forgiving. You can be 
sloppy or formal.  Pretty much a standard for websites (other than 'enterprise 
systems', which are java).  

.Net - The tools are actually pretty powerful, and VB is becoming much like 
C#.  But expensive and proprietary.  Works best if you run windows :)

C or C++ are mainly for embedded code, operating systems, or where performance 
is critical.  But they are too low-level for most tasks.  Strings are not 
natively supported by the language.  No automatic GC.  Memory allocation is 
like juggling knives.  But this is the language that underpins pretty much all 
of the software industry.  

D - never really enticed me enought to go back to the C* world.

Objective-C,  necessary to write iPhone, iPod, iPad, and native Mac apps.  
Like a weird c++.  

Ruby - mixed feelings.  Very amorphous and flexible, which means you can also 
do things like extend classes dynamically without others knowing about it.  

Scheme/Lisp - good to know, but rarely used in production.

Python - mixed feeling.  Awesome libraries available, like Orange for AI.  
Whitespace is significant.  This is suprisingly helpful.  Unless you get 
whitespace messed up in a "tabs vs spaces" war.  Tabs should win, of course.

ADA - often required for government or govt-regulated projects.

Javascript - really common for web applications.  Easy.  But used too much, 
typically for excessive animatiions.  JQuery 

Flash/AS3 - I though I would hate it, but it's just javascript, and turns out 
to be a good development platform.  Powerful libraries for media.  Partially 
open source.  Things like video processing are trivial.  You can use the video 
card for accelerated calculations.

Basic (GW/Q/A/Apple)- ah the memories

Assembly - ah the reboots

awk - good for one-liners

sed - not a big fan

punchcards - do *not* drop the tray just before submitting it, else your 
coworkers will tell me the story 20 years later.

Befunge - fun.  Simple operators.  Resembles the matrix when running.  Easier 
to visualize than perl :}

BrainF**k -  like the obfuscated-C contest, if you had massive operator-
overloading.

LOLCODE - implements recursive irony

Whitespace - a favorite.  One of the polyglot languages.  Incompatible with 
python, unless you are really, really good.

Pascal - might as well use C

matlab/scilab/octave - great for processing data through lots of formulae.

VHDL, Verilog, JHDL, MyHDL, RHDL -  SImilar to DHL or Fedex for bits of data, 
For when it absolutely has to be there on time.  About as low as you can go 
with software.

Up and coming languages.  Allegedly good.  Already attracting hipsters.
	Erlang
	Lua
	Haskell 
	Clojure 
	OCaml	//used on wall street. But that doesn't mean it crashes.

Jeremy



On Friday 26 March 2010 12:43:32 pm Steve Cayford wrote:
> I would second the perl vote. One-liners, system administration, web
> applications, it runs the gamut and scales well. Just follow best practices
> to keep code clean and manageable.
>
> -Steve
>
> Yaron wrote:
> > On Fri, 26 Mar 2010, r j wrote:
> >> A question on languages.
> >> What are your favor languages and what are your favorite ways to use
> >> them.
> >
> > Perl. It's the swiss-army-language.
> >
> > I've played around with PHP (which seemed a lot like bastardized perl).
> >
> > If I was trying to do something serious, I'd probably still go with C,
> > though.
> >
> >
> > -Yaron
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From tclug at beitsahour.net  Tue Mar 30 12:50:58 2010
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 12:50:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <20100330113417.J23809@real-time.com>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com> 
	<4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>
	<82f04dc41003291906w6c164222v34963dd8686e2e39@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100330113417.J23809@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <fa17c9631003301050y196a2fbcu8041c69f7ff2746f@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:34, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
<chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> On 03/29 09:06 , Dan Armbrust wrote:
>> But if you want to watch full-screen online flash video - the more
>> power the better - this is funny only because it is so true
>>
>> http://xkcd.com/619/
>>
>> The hoverover tooltip even specifically mentions the intel driver :-)
>
> How much does the video card affect Flash playback? I would have thought it
> was a largely CPU-bound problem, but I guess it depends on how much the
> implementation uses the X video hooks.
>
> On a slightly unrelated issue; does anyone else find Flash on Linux crashes
> their browser more than it does on Windows?

adobe flash and adobe acrobat are the cause of a vast majority of my
browser crashes. i'm would to say that using adobe products is to be
considered harmful.

granted there are other things that crash Firefox, (and i am assuming
you meant Firefox). upgrading the browser(via a package manager) while
it is still open has caused it to crash several times on me, by
frequency this would be the number 2 cause of browser crashes.

nfs home disappearing for a while has caused it to crash, not
unexpected but many other applications did not crash.


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar 30 13:14:46 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:14:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <fa17c9631003301050y196a2fbcu8041c69f7ff2746f@mail.gmail.com>;
	from tclug@beitsahour.net on Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:50:58PM -0500
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>
	<82f04dc41003291906w6c164222v34963dd8686e2e39@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100330113417.J23809@real-time.com>
	<fa17c9631003301050y196a2fbcu8041c69f7ff2746f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100330131445.K23809@real-time.com>

On 03/30 12:50 , Munir Nassar wrote:
> adobe flash and adobe acrobat are the cause of a vast majority of my
> browser crashes. i'm would to say that using adobe products is to be
> considered harmful.
> 
> granted there are other things that crash Firefox, (and i am assuming
> you meant Firefox). upgrading the browser(via a package manager) while
> it is still open has caused it to crash several times on me, by
> frequency this would be the number 2 cause of browser crashes.

Galeon crashes fairly soon after one opens a Flash animation with it.
Iceweasel runs reasonably well; but some Flash applications definitely seem
to crash it more. Youtube is notably well-behaved.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Mar 30 13:25:43 2010
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:25:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <20100330131445.K23809@real-time.com>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>
	<82f04dc41003291906w6c164222v34963dd8686e2e39@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100330113417.J23809@real-time.com>
	<fa17c9631003301050y196a2fbcu8041c69f7ff2746f@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100330131445.K23809@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003301323130.8879@localhost.localdomain>

On Tue, 30 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> Galeon crashes fairly soon after one opens a Flash animation with it.
> Iceweasel runs reasonably well; but some Flash applications definitely seem
> to crash it more. Youtube is notably well-behaved.

I always assumed this was a 64-bit thing, but I usually ave Flash work for 
a while, and then it just globally STOPS until I restart Firefox. And it 
used to happen back when I was still on pure-debian and it was called 
Iceweasel (;

I tend to not really care enough to restart Firefox, honestly. I should 
wait till it dies on FF and see if it still works in Chrome, which I've 
been playing with lately (and like, except that I'm addicted to Weave).


-Yaron

--


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar 30 13:40:41 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:40:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>;
	from tclug@lizakowski.com on Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 12:41:18PM -0500
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <20100330134040.M23809@real-time.com>

On 03/30 12:41 , Jeremy wrote:

Thanks for the overview Jeremy. Rather a fun read. :)

> ADA - often required for government or govt-regulated projects.

It's nicely similar to Modula-2 or Pascal. Fairly easy to learn & read.

One of the more miserable classes I had in college was one where an
odd-smelling and barely intelligible professor spent 90% of the class
scribbling Ada code on the board as fast as he (and we) could write. We were
never actually required to *write* any code in Ada tho (we could do the
assignments in the language of our choice - I used Modula-2). We worked hard
to do all the assignments, but I don't think I actually learned anything in
that class other than one sentence out of the textbook which said something
to the effect of "Well-behaved programs should not 'bomb' even when given
bad input".

In retrospect, it was another example of the brokenness of the modern
government-inspired-and-regulated education system.

> sed - not a big fan

On the upside, the substitution syntax is similar to Vim's and it's really
handy to include in bash scripts.
"j=`echo $i|sed -e s/onething/anotherthing`" 
is just too handy some days. (Yes, I'm sure there are neater ways to express
that, but this is the one I remember).

> punchcards - do *not* drop the tray just before submitting it, else your 
> coworkers will tell me the story 20 years later.

Never used them myself; but I was told one solution for the spill problem
was to take a black marker and draw a big 'X' on the side of the stack of
cards. That way you just re-order them until the ink marks on the edges of
each card line up and your stack is reassembled.

> Up and coming languages.  Allegedly good.  Already attracting hipsters.
> 	Erlang
> 	Lua

Lua looks like a really simple & easy to learn language; I just never had
reason to learn it. Anyone here have much experience with it?

-- 
Carl Soderstrom (not a coder by any stretch of the imagination)
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From strayf at freeshell.org  Tue Mar 30 13:56:58 2010
From: strayf at freeshell.org (Steve Cayford)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 13:56:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>

Jeremy wrote:
>> There is no language that is "uber alles".   The domain of the problem
>> you're solving often points to the languages you might consider.
> 
> Yes indeed.  Each has pros/cons.
> 

Don't forget COBOL. I guess that would be the domain of legacy banking
systems.


From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Mar 30 14:11:33 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:11:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>;
	from strayf@freeshell.org on Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01:56:58PM -0500
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <20100330141133.N23809@real-time.com>

On 03/30 01:56 , Steve Cayford wrote:
> Don't forget COBOL. I guess that would be the domain of legacy banking
> systems.

COBOL was an enlightening experience for me.
In much the same way that beating your head against a brick wall enlightens
you on the benefits of not beating your head against a brick wall. It feels
really good when you stop.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 14:13:28 2010
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:13:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] video card recommendation
In-Reply-To: <20100330113417.J23809@real-time.com>
References: <4BAFD7D0.5050301@mtu.net>
	<cac10ddc1003281919k7727bde9r4cf0790936331ae6@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100329040150.GF2867@iris.iucha.org>
	<82f04dc41003291318j1a9c6b60y4a44b2a8207822f5@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BB150B6.4070501@mtu.net>
	<82f04dc41003291906w6c164222v34963dd8686e2e39@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100330113417.J23809@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <82f04dc41003301213j3abfaf62md8f00cb015f13764@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
<chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> On 03/29 09:06 , Dan Armbrust wrote:
>> But if you want to watch full-screen online flash video - the more
>> power the better - this is funny only because it is so true
>>
>> http://xkcd.com/619/
>>
>> The hoverover tooltip even specifically mentions the intel driver :-)
>
> How much does the video card affect Flash playback? I would have thought it
> was a largely CPU-bound problem, but I guess it depends on how much the
> implementation uses the X video hooks.

Hardware decoding of Flash H.264 streams is coming.  Slowly.
http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flashplayer/articles/fplayer10.1_hardware_acceleration.html

Only supports Windows today.  If it ever works on Linux, it seems
likely that it will use VDPAU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDPAU

But first, ATI and Intel would probably have to agree to support it.


>
> On a slightly unrelated issue; does anyone else find Flash on Linux crashes
> their browser more than it does on Windows?
org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

True for me... but mainly on my 64 bit system.  The 32 bit installs
seem fairly stable (finally)


From jucziz6 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 14:35:16 2010
From: jucziz6 at gmail.com (James)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 14:35:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <20100330141133.N23809@real-time.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org> <20100330141133.N23809@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <81675d141003301235lecd4587ge7d768296f818e1e@mail.gmail.com>

COBOL, if only it was history, no sad to say Oracle still uses COBOL.
I worked at a company that loved COBOL so much it wrote it's own COBOL
compiler which only begs the question WHAT THE HELL FOR. I now work at
a College, the student information application uses COBOL HMMM how
progressive. Now one could think, well thats only the university you
work at, oh not so somehow this application has made it big time in
the university circles UofM, St. Thomas and Hamlin to name a few.
COBOL should somehow refer to how to keep old U.S. programmers
employed which is a good thing now days.

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 2:11 PM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
<chrome at real-time.com> wrote:
> On 03/30 01:56 , Steve Cayford wrote:
>> Don't forget COBOL. I guess that would be the domain of legacy banking
>> systems.
>
> COBOL was an enlightening experience for me.
> In much the same way that beating your head against a brick wall enlightens
> you on the benefits of not beating your head against a brick wall. It feels
> really good when you stop.
>
> --
> Carl Soderstrom
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 15:57:53 2010
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 15:57:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Need help setting up a proxy for Transmission (I
 can't seem to connect the dots)
In-Reply-To: <7b7c42a31003300544p78bd8937ib9b523c7dfa7581f@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BB1893B.9000407@gmail.com>
	<7b7c42a31003300539r7553d1cbp645e1c26b1016c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7b7c42a31003300544p78bd8937ib9b523c7dfa7581f@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BB265D1.2010606@gmail.com>

On 3/30/2010 7:44 AM, Andy Schmid wrote:
> Ok, so I just looked at http://trac.transmissionbt.com/wiki/WebProxy a
> little closer and its not really what you want with an ssh tunnel. 
> That said, there may be a transmission config for a generic proxy
> which would work with ssh tunneling.  Also, you should take a look at
> rtorrent.  Rtorrent is quite customizable and might be able to do what
> you are looking for.
I tried for several hours to get rTorrent to communicate properly with
several web frontends in vain. I followed all the directions and it just
refused to work. I had Transmission setup in 30 minutes.

> Just curious, who do you go through for a seedbox?  
www.dedisales.com (A Kimsufi/OVH reseller). My friend set that up, so
you'd have to talk to him. Contact me off-list if you're really interested.


From gm5729 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 16:09:00 2010
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gm5729)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:09:00 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Need help setting up a proxy for Transmission (I
	can't seem to connect the dots)
In-Reply-To: <4BB265D1.2010606@gmail.com>
References: <4BB1893B.9000407@gmail.com>
	<7b7c42a31003300539r7553d1cbp645e1c26b1016c97@mail.gmail.com>
	<7b7c42a31003300544p78bd8937ib9b523c7dfa7581f@mail.gmail.com>
	<4BB265D1.2010606@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <66026d801003301409ib84ff63r59e1dfb2d9dd9485@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 20:57, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3/30/2010 7:44 AM, Andy Schmid wrote:
>> Ok, so I just looked at http://trac.transmissionbt.com/wiki/WebProxy a
>> little closer and its not really what you want with an ssh tunnel.
>> That said, there may be a transmission config for a generic proxy
>> which would work with ssh tunneling. ?Also, you should take a look at
>> rtorrent. ?Rtorrent is quite customizable and might be able to do what
>> you are looking for.
> I tried for several hours to get rTorrent to communicate properly with
> several web frontends in vain. I followed all the directions and it just
> refused to work. I had Transmission setup in 30 minutes.
>
>> Just curious, who do you go through for a seedbox?
> www.dedisales.com (A Kimsufi/OVH reseller). My friend set that up, so
> you'd have to talk to him. Contact me off-list if you're really interested.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

Running torrents through proxies and tor massively slows down your
up/down. If you are trying to block certain sites.
Moblock/BlockControl with Mobloquer and Transmission with its Built In
Peer Guardian work wonderfully. Always make sure to use encrypted
peers as a mandatory feature. RTorrent can use moblock on the machine
it is running on or on the gateway out it doesn't have its own Peer
Guardian.

VampirePenguin

-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 16:21:26 2010
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 16:21:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Need help setting up a proxy for Transmission (I
 can't seem to connect the dots)
In-Reply-To: <66026d801003301409ib84ff63r59e1dfb2d9dd9485@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4BB1893B.9000407@gmail.com>	<7b7c42a31003300539r7553d1cbp645e1c26b1016c97@mail.gmail.com>	<7b7c42a31003300544p78bd8937ib9b523c7dfa7581f@mail.gmail.com>	<4BB265D1.2010606@gmail.com>
	<66026d801003301409ib84ff63r59e1dfb2d9dd9485@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BB26B56.7070709@gmail.com>

On 3/30/2010 4:09 PM, gm5729 wrote:
> Running torrents through proxies and tor massively slows down your
> up/down. If you are trying to block certain sites.
> Moblock/BlockControl with Mobloquer and Transmission with its Built In
> Peer Guardian work wonderfully. Always make sure to use encrypted
> peers as a mandatory feature. RTorrent can use moblock on the machine
> it is running on or on the gateway out it doesn't have its own Peer
> Guardian.
Running the data connection through a proxy isn't the goal. The goal is
to spoof the tracker into thinking requests come from the computer
running the remote client so that it will send the seedbox the
information it needs to connect to peers.


From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Mar 30 17:10:58 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 17:10:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEBJDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jeremy
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:41 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Languages

My comments on a few you mentioned may not help the main thread, but may help clarify these citations:

> matlab/scilab/octave - great for processing data through lots of formulae.

Makes great approximate models, but is not great for representing real hardware that is processing measurable signals.  Best used as
abstract math that may approximate something real, but its results are never quite real or accurate... close or closer, but not
accurate.

>
> VHDL, Verilog, JHDL, MyHDL, RHDL -  SImilar to DHL or Fedex for bits of data,
> For when it absolutely has to be there on time.  About as low as you can go
> with software.

I disagree!  These are metalanguages (VHDL AMS and Verilog AMS in particular...   AMS = Analog and Mixed Signal).  They can be as
high in representation of system abstraction or in software expression, etc, as one can go, and certainly as "complete" as C or C++
or SPICE which are seamlessly connected to them and included if needed or useful for expressing lower-level stuff.

VHDL and Verilog actually are capable of carrying from top block diagram or flow chart levels of system abstraction and behavior
down seamlessly to nitty-gritty of device physics and processes, and exact design of the transistors that make your CPUs and memory
and analog video, etc.  These are far more versatile, precise, and expressive than MatLab, though not intended for the very same
uses.

MatLab is only a behavioral approximation for hardware or other reality, while Verilog AMS or VHDL AMS are full and complete and
elegant means to describe, define, fabricate, and benchmark real hardware.

This group of "languages" is seldom known or practiced in an IT group, but network stuff can be designed or analyzed with Verilog
AMS or VHDL AMS stochastically or by discrete events, etc, to any degree of "quick and dirty" or detailed design.  There is an open
source version of VHDL AMS and possibilities of an open source Verilog AMS as well.  Hardware jocks prefer Verilog's bottom up
orientation, while VHDL has more software formality and data typing, etc.


Chuck




From kris.browne at gmail.com  Tue Mar 30 21:22:01 2010
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne)
Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 21:22:01 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <20100330134040.M23809@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <4bb2b1e1.5644f10a.6398.737f@mx.google.com>

Lua is extremely popular as an embedded script processor... For example, most of the World of Warcraft UI is scripted in Lua.



-- Sent from my Palm Pre
On Mar 30, 2010 13:45, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom &lt;chrome at real-time.com&gt; wrote: 

On 03/30 12:41 , Jeremy wrote:



Thanks for the overview Jeremy. Rather a fun read. :)



&gt; ADA - often required for government or govt-regulated projects.



It's nicely similar to Modula-2 or Pascal. Fairly easy to learn &amp; read.



One of the more miserable classes I had in college was one where an

odd-smelling and barely intelligible professor spent 90% of the class

scribbling Ada code on the board as fast as he (and we) could write. We were

never actually required to *write* any code in Ada tho (we could do the

assignments in the language of our choice - I used Modula-2). We worked hard

to do all the assignments, but I don't think I actually learned anything in

that class other than one sentence out of the textbook which said something

to the effect of "Well-behaved programs should not 'bomb' even when given

bad input".



In retrospect, it was another example of the brokenness of the modern

government-inspired-and-regulated education system.



&gt; sed - not a big fan



On the upside, the substitution syntax is similar to Vim's and it's really

handy to include in bash scripts.

"j=`echo $i|sed -e s/onething/anotherthing`" 

is just too handy some days. (Yes, I'm sure there are neater ways to express

that, but this is the one I remember).



&gt; punchcards - do *not* drop the tray just before submitting it, else your 

&gt; coworkers will tell me the story 20 years later.



Never used them myself; but I was told one solution for the spill problem

was to take a black marker and draw a big 'X' on the side of the stack of

cards. That way you just re-order them until the ink marks on the edges of

each card line up and your stack is reassembled.



&gt; Up and coming languages.  Allegedly good.  Already attracting hipsters.

&gt; 	Erlang

&gt; 	Lua



Lua looks like a really simple &amp; easy to learn language; I just never had

reason to learn it. Anyone here have much experience with it?



-- 

Carl Soderstrom (not a coder by any stretch of the imagination)

Systems Administrator

Real-Time Enterprises

www.real-time.com



_______________________________________________

TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota

tclug-list at mn-linux.org

http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From dave at sherohman.org  Wed Mar 31 03:25:32 2010
From: dave at sherohman.org (Dave Sherohman)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 03:25:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <20100331082532.GT450@sherohman.org>

On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01:56:58PM -0500, Steve Cayford wrote:
> Jeremy wrote:
> >> There is no language that is "uber alles".   The domain of the problem
> >> you're solving often points to the languages you might consider.
> > 
> > Yes indeed.  Each has pros/cons.
> > 
> 
> Don't forget COBOL. I guess that would be the domain of legacy banking
> systems.

Good point:  All languages have drawbacks, but this does not mean that
all languages have benefits.


My COBOL story:  Back in the early-to-mid 90s, I was assigned to help a
cow-orker with a project to translate a client's application out of
COBOL.  Into Visual Basic.  And the client wanted to do it in two
stages.  Stage 1 (which was in progress) was to create a VB app that
exactly duplicated the look, feel, and behavior of the existiing COBOL.
One gigantic form with a zillion textboxes and no event handlers on any
of them, just a mile-long handler to run when the user pressed 'enter'
that did everything and then cleared the form.

I don't recall whether stage 1 was ever completed, but stage 2
(re-rewriting into something that actually looked and behaved like a
modern desktop application) never happened.

-- 
Dave Sherohman


From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Mar 31 09:04:38 2010
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:04:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <20100331082532.GT450@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMEBKDBAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Dave Sherohman
> Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 3:26 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Languages
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 30, 2010 at 01:56:58PM -0500, Steve Cayford wrote:
> > Jeremy wrote:
> > >> There is no language that is "uber alles".   The domain of the problem
> > >> you're solving often points to the languages you might consider.
> > >
> > > Yes indeed.  Each has pros/cons.
> > >
> >
> > Don't forget COBOL. I guess that would be the domain of legacy banking
> > systems.
>
> Good point:  All languages have drawbacks, but this does not mean that
> all languages have benefits.


COBOL was the first language written to require structure and portability so that the same results could be obtained twice in a row
or on separate computers, AND be maintained by folks other than the original coders.  It was written in a day when "mainframe"
computers often didn't have as much as 1 meg of RAM or 8 megs or hard drive due to the extreme expense (way over $100K).  COBOL is
now very old (60 years?), but it was and is very successful for what it was built to do.  Eliminating "self-modifying code" was a
big step forward.  Grace Hopper aka "Amazing Grace" was the bulldog WAC or WAVE who made COBOL happen.  She retired with the rank of
Admiral, I think...  very well deserved!

Ada does the same sort of thing for a much more modern era of computers, and for technical as well as bean-counting software.


Chuck



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 09:30:35 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 09:30:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <20100331082532.GT450@sherohman.org>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>
	<20100331082532.GT450@sherohman.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003310929340.23240@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Dave Sherohman wrote:

> My COBOL story:  Back in the early-to-mid 90s, I was assigned to help a 
> cow-orker with a project

One who orks cows?

I tried to resist.  Really, I did.  ;-)

Mike


From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Mar 31 10:29:25 2010
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:29:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003310929340.23240@taxa.psych.umn.edu>;
	from mbmiller+l@gmail.com on Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 09:30:35AM -0500
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>
	<20100331082532.GT450@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003310929340.23240@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20100331102925.P23809@real-time.com>

On 03/31 09:30 , Mike Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Dave Sherohman wrote:
> 
> > My COBOL story:  Back in the early-to-mid 90s, I was assigned to help a 
> > cow-orker with a project
> 
> One who orks cows?

If you haven't read 'Enter the Cow-Orker' yet, you should.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/white_gold/

Funniest thing I've read in a long time. Sadly, I suspect that there are a
lot more goofermint orkers like this out there.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 11:31:49 2010
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 11:31:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <20100331102925.P23809@real-time.com>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>
	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>
	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>
	<4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>
	<20100331082532.GT450@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003310929340.23240@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20100331102925.P23809@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003311122150.23240@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> On 03/31 09:30 , Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Dave Sherohman wrote:
>>
>>> My COBOL story:  Back in the early-to-mid 90s, I was assigned to help 
>>> a cow-orker with a project
>>
>> One who orks cows?
>
> If you haven't read 'Enter the Cow-Orker' yet, you should.
>
> http://members.optusnet.com.au/white_gold/
>
> Funniest thing I've read in a long time. Sadly, I suspect that there are 
> a lot more goofermint orkers like this out there.


That's amazing.  There's an entire "cow-orker" world out there (as 
revealed by Google) that I had never heard of.  I guess I have to stay in 
more.  I thought it was an unintentional typo, but I guess it was too 
funny to be a mistake.

Mike


From tclug at jfoo.org  Wed Mar 31 12:08:42 2010
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 10:08:42 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1003310929340.23240@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <25f02f41003261002y274dd082l1e70e914b12e66b@mail.gmail.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003261208370.3388@localhost.localdomain>	<4BACF244.7060902@freeshell.org>	<201003301241.19309.tclug@lizakowski.com>	<4BB2497A.6060607@freeshell.org>	<20100331082532.GT450@sherohman.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1003310929340.23240@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4BB3819A.3010205@jfoo.org>

Mike Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Mar 2010, Dave Sherohman wrote:
> 
>> My COBOL story:  Back in the early-to-mid 90s, I was assigned to help a 
>> cow-orker with a project
> 
> One who orks cows?

The scary devil monastery!

j


From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 13:42:38 2010
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 12:42:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] expandable encrypted file container?
Message-ID: <r2t82f04dc41003311142p30e4aa52t61d8c2d20a74c17b@mail.gmail.com>

Anyone know what software I could use to create expandable encrypted
file containers?

TrueCrypt is wonderful... but you can't resize the encrypted files it creates.

Aka - I want to be able to mount a file as an encrypted file system,
copy arbitrary files into that file system, unmount it, and copy the
file containing the encrypted file system to another server where
there is no security.

But I don't want to have to know the file size ahead of time - which
TrueCrypt requires.

Thanks,

Dan


From tclug at beitsahour.net  Wed Mar 31 14:02:55 2010
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:02:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] expandable encrypted file container?
In-Reply-To: <r2t82f04dc41003311142p30e4aa52t61d8c2d20a74c17b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2t82f04dc41003311142p30e4aa52t61d8c2d20a74c17b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <m2gfa17c9631003311202y996ce81k101ab9bddd909c3e@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 13:42, Dan Armbrust
<daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyone know what software I could use to create expandable encrypted
> file containers?
>
> TrueCrypt is wonderful... but you can't resize the encrypted files it creates.
>
> Aka - I want to be able to mount a file as an encrypted file system,
> copy arbitrary files into that file system, unmount it, and copy the
> file containing the encrypted file system to another server where
> there is no security.
>
> But I don't want to have to know the file size ahead of time - which
> TrueCrypt requires.

why not just tar up the files and then encrypt the tarball?

maybe even use the --use-compress-program= option and a special
wrapper to gnupg.


From gm5729 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 14:10:07 2010
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gm5729)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 19:10:07 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] expandable encrypted file container?
In-Reply-To: <r2t82f04dc41003311142p30e4aa52t61d8c2d20a74c17b@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2t82f04dc41003311142p30e4aa52t61d8c2d20a74c17b@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <u2x66026d801003311210sd5fa0458pfeaa6aa07385da55@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 18:42, Dan Armbrust
<daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com> wrote:
> Anyone know what software I could use to create expandable encrypted
> file containers?
>
> TrueCrypt is wonderful... but you can't resize the encrypted files it creates.
>
> Aka - I want to be able to mount a file as an encrypted file system,
> copy arbitrary files into that file system, unmount it, and copy the
> file containing the encrypted file system to another server where
> there is no security.
>
> But I don't want to have to know the file size ahead of time - which
> TrueCrypt requires.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


You can use Fuse/Encfs.... BEWARE... there is a KNOWN 10 month old bug
in the OpenSSL/AES ciphers that can cause a data error in the key
thereby rendering your key and passphrase useless, along with your
data. The Blowfish/OpenSSL are not known to be affected. This is a
dynamic container system.

The next option is to move out of userland and Fuse and use Ecryptfs.
Personally it does encryption and decryption well but has some tricky
spots to get used to because you have to put the same variables in
each time you mount the directory. Umounts are justl like normal for
any other FS.

I am trying to find another solution myself. XTC, Symmetric and with a
Passphrase that doesn't choke on >4GB. Somehow in one of my transfers
I lost my onsite GPG secret key which I had to restore with an offsite
one. My public key was on the keyservers for GPG. GPG can do large
folders but it takes some time and you have to encrypt and decrypt
each time. Bcrypt is good but it has problems with folders/directories
somewhere around the 2gb to 4gb range. All these files of course can
be split with the split utility.

To me truecrypt takes way too much time to set up and maintain. But
that is perception.

VampirePenguin
-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1


From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 14:45:41 2010
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 13:45:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Languages
Message-ID: <l2lddf6f4ca1003311245l5d301fd7j871a2a464d26f5d3@mail.gmail.com>

I've not followed this thread closely, but would like
to mention this
http://developers.*facebook*.com/news.*php*?blog=1&story=358<http://www.google.com/url?sa=D&q=http://developers.facebook.com/news.php%3Fblog%3D1%26story%3D358&usg=AFQjCNHqKBzmbixZPTVHlMd1j54I4FNDNA>

I worked at Southwest Airlines (~10 years ago) shortly
after they dumped PERL for C++ for performance reasons.
I'm thankful to G-d to increasingly put distractions like PERL
and PHP behind me.


-- 
Brian Wood
http://webEbenezer.net
(651) 251-9384
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From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 16:04:14 2010
From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 15:04:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] expandable encrypted file container?
In-Reply-To: <u2x66026d801003311210sd5fa0458pfeaa6aa07385da55@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2t82f04dc41003311142p30e4aa52t61d8c2d20a74c17b@mail.gmail.com>
	<u2x66026d801003311210sd5fa0458pfeaa6aa07385da55@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <z2s82f04dc41003311404z5bb3fdebjef4eab25f369aa7a@mail.gmail.com>

>
> You can use Fuse/Encfs.... BEWARE... there is a KNOWN 10 month old bug
> in the OpenSSL/AES ciphers that can cause a data error in the key
> thereby rendering your key and passphrase useless, along with your
> data. The Blowfish/OpenSSL are not known to be affected. This is a
> dynamic container system.
>

This is basically what I want... I'll have to experiment with it further.

Thanks for the tips and the bug warning.  Funny that it's default
cipher is one that is known to be broken.

Dan


From gm5729 at gmail.com  Wed Mar 31 16:59:30 2010
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gm5729)
Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2010 21:59:30 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] expandable encrypted file container?
In-Reply-To: <z2s82f04dc41003311404z5bb3fdebjef4eab25f369aa7a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <r2t82f04dc41003311142p30e4aa52t61d8c2d20a74c17b@mail.gmail.com>
	<u2x66026d801003311210sd5fa0458pfeaa6aa07385da55@mail.gmail.com>
	<z2s82f04dc41003311404z5bb3fdebjef4eab25f369aa7a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <x2o66026d801003311459r3e12259t2a4af28cc26d0070@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 21:04, Dan Armbrust
<daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> You can use Fuse/Encfs.... BEWARE... there is a KNOWN 10 month old bug
>> in the OpenSSL/AES ciphers that can cause a data error in the key
>> thereby rendering your key and passphrase useless, along with your
>> data. The Blowfish/OpenSSL are not known to be affected. This is a
>> dynamic container system.
>>
>
> This is basically what I want... I'll have to experiment with it further.
>
> Thanks for the tips and the bug warning. ?Funny that it's default
> cipher is one that is known to be broken.
>
> Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


It is all over the Debian Mailing Lists. The way I got my information
back was to rsync from my backups to my hdd and delete all data not
the same. Surprisingly it worked.

VampirePenguin
-- 
-- 
If there is a question to the validity of this email please phone for
validation. Proudly presented by Mutt, GNUPG, Vi/m and GNU/Linux via
CopyLeft. GNU/Linux is about Freedom to compute as you want and need
to, and share your work unencumbered and have others do the same with
you. Key :  0xD53A8E1