From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Nov  1 01:01:04 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 01:01:04 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
Message-ID: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>

I know that the Installfests are scheduled around the Ubuntu release dates, but I think we each should bring in CDs and DVDs for our favorite distro(s).  This way, the selection of CDs/DVDs available for newcomers would be a reflection of our preferences and the diversity of Linux distros available.

For the next Installfest, I'll bring in a few Linux Mint Debian Edition DVDs, a few Swift Linux CDs (to showcase the lighter LMDE-based Swift Linux that will be available by then), and a few Puppy Linux CDs.  Other people could bring in Fedora, openSUSE, Arch, Sabayon, etc.

Linux newcomers could try out various live CDs and see what these various distros are like.  The opportunity would also be valuable for people looking for an alternative to Ubuntu.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 01:24:00 2011
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 01:24:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>

On 11/1/2011 1:01 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:
> I know that the Installfests are scheduled around the Ubuntu release dates, but I think we each should bring in CDs and DVDs for our favorite distro(s).

Wouldn't it be more efficient and easier to just have various images on
hand and burn to disc or copy to flash drives as needed? It would be
almost trivial for someone to have live CD/DVD/flash drive images
available on one of his/her hard drives at an installfest. I have a few
hundred GB free on my laptop drives and another couple hundred GB free
on a portable external drive I carry myself, so space is not an issue. I
think Brian had tons of blank CD-Rs and a few flash drives, so media
shouldn't be an issue either. There weren't any blank DVDs around at the
last installfest, but I have plenty that I could bring in case someone
wants a disc with a heftier version of a distro (or has a dodgy optical
drive like me that doesn't like to boot from CDs :P ).

From sfertch at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 04:36:43 2011
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 04:36:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>
References: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>
	<4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJCD7j7UfCJuKcYUSPENzohn=krinWjYjrWnpQKDROk4UtRqUw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 01:24, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Wouldn't it be more efficient and easier to just have various images on
> hand and burn to disc or copy to flash drives as needed? It would be
> almost trivial for someone to have live CD/DVD/flash drive images
> available on one of his/her hard drives at an installfest. I have a few
> hundred GB free on my laptop drives and another couple hundred GB free
> on a portable external drive I carry myself, so space is not an issue. I
> think Brian had tons of blank CD-Rs and a few flash drives, so media
> shouldn't be an issue either. There weren't any blank DVDs around at the
> last installfest, but I have plenty that I could bring in case someone
> wants a disc with a heftier version of a distro (or has a dodgy optical
> drive like me that doesn't like to boot from CDs :P ).
>

This is how it used to be, back in the day.  Someone had an old system they
donated to the LUG for installfests that had enough space to hold pretty
much every major distro's current release and at least one back.  ISO
images then be copied to media and installed from.

I think the old system finally gave up the ghost.  Or, the installfests did
due to lack of participation, facilities, etc.

-- 
-Shawn
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From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  1 05:23:08 2011
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 05:23:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <CAJCD7j7UfCJuKcYUSPENzohn=krinWjYjrWnpQKDROk4UtRqUw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMENADGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

Notice that the announcement stated that any distro could be installed.  That would be the case, regardless whether Jason brought
his CDs.  Unlikey there is an installfest site anywhere that is better equipped or nicer than TIES for an installfest.

Chuck

  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Shawn Fertch
  Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 4:37 AM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros


  On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 01:24, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com> wrote:



    Wouldn't it be more efficient and easier to just have various images on
    hand and burn to disc or copy to flash drives as needed? It would be
    almost trivial for someone to have live CD/DVD/flash drive images
    available on one of his/her hard drives at an installfest. I have a few
    hundred GB free on my laptop drives and another couple hundred GB free
    on a portable external drive I carry myself, so space is not an issue. I
    think Brian had tons of blank CD-Rs and a few flash drives, so media
    shouldn't be an issue either. There weren't any blank DVDs around at the
    last installfest, but I have plenty that I could bring in case someone
    wants a disc with a heftier version of a distro (or has a dodgy optical
    drive like me that doesn't like to boot from CDs :P ).


  This is how it used to be, back in the day.  Someone had an old system they donated to the LUG for installfests that had enough
space to hold pretty much every major distro's current release and at least one back.  ISO images then be copied to media and
installed from.

  I think the old system finally gave up the ghost.  Or, the installfests did due to lack of participation, facilities, etc.

  --
  -Shawn
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From sfertch at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 05:50:49 2011
From: sfertch at gmail.com (Shawn Fertch)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 05:50:49 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMENADGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <CAJCD7j7UfCJuKcYUSPENzohn=krinWjYjrWnpQKDROk4UtRqUw@mail.gmail.com>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMENADGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAJCD7j6sPsF1uarjg5NV1KWn0ZGzzNB62pH4M5dn_+n6Jr1wOg@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, it did say any distro.  I was referring to the use of a LUG system
that hosted the different distros on the LAN and was brought to the
installfest.  Perhaps that part eluded you...

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 05:23, Chuck Cole <cncole at earthlink.net> wrote:

> **
> Notice that the announcement stated that any distro could be installed.
> That would be the case, regardless whether Jason brought his CDs.  Unlikey
> there is an installfest site anywhere that is better equipped or nicer than
> TIES for an installfest.
>
> Chuck
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:
> tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]*On Behalf Of *Shawn Fertch
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 01, 2011 4:37 AM
> *To:* TCLUG Mailing List
> *Subject:* Re: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 01:24, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>> Wouldn't it be more efficient and easier to just have various images on
>> hand and burn to disc or copy to flash drives as needed? It would be
>> almost trivial for someone to have live CD/DVD/flash drive images
>> available on one of his/her hard drives at an installfest. I have a few
>> hundred GB free on my laptop drives and another couple hundred GB free
>> on a portable external drive I carry myself, so space is not an issue. I
>> think Brian had tons of blank CD-Rs and a few flash drives, so media
>> shouldn't be an issue either. There weren't any blank DVDs around at the
>> last installfest, but I have plenty that I could bring in case someone
>> wants a disc with a heftier version of a distro (or has a dodgy optical
>> drive like me that doesn't like to boot from CDs :P ).
>>
>
> This is how it used to be, back in the day.  Someone had an old system
> they donated to the LUG for installfests that had enough space to hold
> pretty much every major distro's current release and at least one back.
> ISO images then be copied to media and installed from.
>
> I think the old system finally gave up the ghost.  Or, the installfests
> did due to lack of participation, facilities, etc.
>
> --
> -Shawn
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
-Shawn
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From random at argle.org  Tue Nov  1 08:47:17 2011
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 08:47:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10?
In-Reply-To: <20111031230215.te85cxtusw40808o@mail.dalan.us>
References: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com>
	<20111031230215.te85cxtusw40808o@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <4EAFF865.5060206@argle.org>

For a lot of years Redhat package management lagged behind Debian in
capabilities and ease of use. This is why there are so many more Debian
based distros out there right now.

Ubuntu makes a decent server if you are running on a development model
that requires staying closer to the cutting edge than RHEL supports, but
RHEL has features that Ubuntu doesn't do so well, so it really depends
on local needs.

On 10/31/2011 11:02 PM, David Alanis wrote:
> I really wish I could have made it to this past installfest and have had
> the opportunity to talk to people about their experiences using Ubuntu.
> 
> From reading most of the responses, I am not convinced or does it
> encourage me to want to install Ubuntu on my desktop.
> 
> I finally outgrew Gentoo <3 (only as a desktop :P), I ran Arch for a
> year at work (hated pacman and their mirrors) and finally have Fedora 14
> installed. I don't want to exaggerate, but *Fedora* with Xfce is the shizz.
> 
> To date, I've had no problems with the audio, nVidia drivers, nor have
> had to mess with xorg or any desktop settings. It's running rock solid
> with minor tuning.
> 
> I don't know if my opinion counts really since all I've been running for
> the past 5 years was Gentoo with Fluxbox. Why aren't more people
> encouraging beginners to install Fedora?
> 
> More recently, I overheard in a technical conference a couple of techies
> mention that they converted all of their work servers to Ubuntu. I guess
> its been out a long time. Am I being naive by dismissing it? Is it
> really as desirable as a server as much as it is a desktop?
> 
> I find it hard to believe reading that Red Hat's rpm "didn't make the
> grade" with this company...
> 
> http://www.ubuntu.com/products/casestudies/equitec-financial-services-chooses-ubuntu-server
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Nov  1 10:10:08 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:10:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>
References: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>
	<4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111101101008.7e8c277a2dd98647195d7446@jasonhsu.com>

Future Installfests will definitely require more DVDs and fewer CDs as more and more distros are too big to fit onto a CD.  We're getting to the point that only the lightweight distros fit onto a CD.  I'm surprised Ubuntu doesn't require a DVD already.  (Then again, X/K/Ubuntu requires a long download in the installation process.  I don't think the wireless network at TIES can handle that many Ubuntu installations at once.)

On Tue, 01 Nov 2011 01:24:00 -0500
Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't it be more efficient and easier to just have various images on
> hand and burn to disc or copy to flash drives as needed? It would be
> almost trivial for someone to have live CD/DVD/flash drive images
> available on one of his/her hard drives at an installfest. I have a few
> hundred GB free on my laptop drives and another couple hundred GB free
> on a portable external drive I carry myself, so space is not an issue. I
> think Brian had tons of blank CD-Rs and a few flash drives, so media
> shouldn't be an issue either. There weren't any blank DVDs around at the
> last installfest, but I have plenty that I could bring in case someone
> wants a disc with a heftier version of a distro (or has a dodgy optical
> drive like me that doesn't like to boot from CDs :P ).
> _______________________________________________

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  1 10:25:37 2011
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:25:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <CAJCD7j6sPsF1uarjg5NV1KWn0ZGzzNB62pH4M5dn_+n6Jr1wOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLKENBDGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>


  -----Original Message-----
  From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Shawn Fertch
  Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 5:51 AM
  To: TCLUG Mailing List
  Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros


  Yes, it did say any distro.  I was referring to the use of a LUG system that hosted the different distros on the LAN and was
brought to the installfest.  Perhaps that part eluded you...

 No, I've seen that.  The TIES system is bigger and getter.  No need to LUG a system to unequipped boondocks as before  :-)


Chuck

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From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Nov  1 10:25:38 2011
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:25:38 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <20111101101008.7e8c277a2dd98647195d7446@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLMENBDGAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jason Hsu
> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2011 10:10 AM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
>
>
> Future Installfests will definitely require more DVDs and fewer CDs as more and more distros are too big to fit onto a
> CD.  We're getting to the point that only the lightweight distros fit onto a CD.  I'm surprised Ubuntu doesn't require a
> DVD already.  (Then again, X/K/Ubuntu requires a long download in the installation process.  I don't think the wireless
> network at TIES can handle that many Ubuntu installations at once.)


The wired network is typically used, tho wireless is an option.  You seem to have no idea how huge the capacity at TIES really is.
You should find out what TIES is.


Chuck


From erikerik at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 10:29:42 2011
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:29:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <20111101101008.7e8c277a2dd98647195d7446@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>
	<4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>
	<20111101101008.7e8c277a2dd98647195d7446@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08rkA2qGOWuAQHXNXJAahTjrDTanfsccDRiDhJgu3d97zQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> ?I don't think the wireless network at TIES can handle that many Ubuntu installations at once.

Umm, methinks the wireless will be just fine, and wired is always an
option as well. As far as upstream bandwidth goes, I'm fairly certain
that TIES has one (if not multiple) several-hundred Mbit or perhaps
even 1 Gbit circuits to 511 downtown. They push a *lot* of data
through that building.

Perhaps Brian can quantify exactly what they have going on there.

-Erik

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Nov  1 10:41:11 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 10:41:11 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Any Linux-related Halloween costumes?
Message-ID: <20111101104111.90fedc514294281de884b39d@jasonhsu.com>

Have any of you dressed up as a penguin for Halloween or seen anyone doing so?

It would be cool to see someone wearing a big "Linux Inside" logo.  It would also be cool to see someone wearing a big logo from one of the distros, though it wouldn't be as obvious to non-Linux users what the costume is.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Nov  1 11:22:27 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:22:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Any Linux-related Halloween costumes?
In-Reply-To: <20111101104111.90fedc514294281de884b39d@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111101104111.90fedc514294281de884b39d@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111011115530.18856@Dragon>

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> Have any of you dressed up as a penguin for Halloween or seen anyone 
> doing so?

You ask the weirdest questions, Jason (:


I think that for a lot of us, wearing a Linux/UNIX/other-geek related 
clothing is something we do every day anyway, so we don't really need to 
do it on haloween, too!


My vote for Best Geek Costume: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn35SB1_NYI


(I wore a gorilla suit and scared the trick or treaters).




-Yaron

--

From ron at ron-l-j.com  Tue Nov  1 12:44:09 2011
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:44:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
Message-ID: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>

My company ,E-commerce based business, is running Q-mail and has a spam
issue. The server is Redhat and, I am wondering why the hosting provider
would choose Qmail over Postfix? From what I can see it looks like Qmail
is a perl program and the daemon running is perl. Is this more secure than
Postfix? I am inheriting this problem and would like to use postfix and
spam assassin. Apparently there is a bug in the latest version of spam
assassin and I have to roll back versions. Please let me know what you
think. Thank you, Ron


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Nov  1 12:57:34 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:57:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111011253440.2053@Dragon>

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, ron at ron-l-j.com wrote:

> My company ,E-commerce based business, is running Q-mail and has a spam
> issue. The server is Redhat and, I am wondering why the hosting provider
> would choose Qmail over Postfix?

I used qmail for many, many, MANY years. I'm talking about a decade, still 
running the same version (1.03 - there are no newer versions I think).

At the end of that I was getting TOUSANDS of spam messages a DAY. 
THOUSANDS. And that's just to my personal mailbox(es).

There are qmail-spam-blockers but it was such a hassle getting them to 
work with a decade-old piece of software.

So I switched over to postfix, and spamassassin, and RBLs and a bunch of 
other things. I've had one spam message manage to slip into my inbox in 
the past two weeks. The spam folder gets a few hundred a month, still, but 
that's down from thousands a DAY.

I'm not looking back.


-Yaron

--

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 13:14:52 2011
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:14:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10?
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuZ9NhJOiaQdN5UU-W1uLk2acDj-ZFwschaRt42UvKvJQ@mail.gmail.com>

David Alanis:
> I finally outgrew Gentoo <3 (only as a desktop :P), I ran Arch for a
> year at work (hated pacman and their mirrors) and finally have Fedora
> 14 installed. I don't want to exaggerate, but *Fedora* with Xfce is
> the shizz.


I have Fedora 14 and 16 (beta) running on two machines.  I'm happy
with both of them.  Had a few problems with Fedora 15 but have
forgotten the details.  Few mention Fedora here so am glad to hear
something about it.

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
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From aeshva at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 13:18:16 2011
From: aeshva at gmail.com (John Nielsen)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:18:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10?
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjuZ9NhJOiaQdN5UU-W1uLk2acDj-ZFwschaRt42UvKvJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuZ9NhJOiaQdN5UU-W1uLk2acDj-ZFwschaRt42UvKvJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALZ1KsB6N2SA1Zco4e4BYzZaWMPiu_J0YLPYX6SvwvizLonZZw@mail.gmail.com>

I installed Fedora 15 on three computers at the install fest. I am really
liking it.
On Nov 1, 2011 1:15 PM, "Brian Wood" <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

> David Alanis:
> > I finally outgrew Gentoo <3 (only as a desktop :P), I ran Arch for a
> > year at work (hated pacman and their mirrors) and finally have Fedora
> > 14 installed. I don't want to exaggerate, but *Fedora* with Xfce is
> > the shizz.
>
>
> I have Fedora 14 and 16 (beta) running on two machines.  I'm happy
> with both of them.  Had a few problems with Fedora 15 but have
> forgotten the details.  Few mention Fedora here so am glad to hear
> something about it.
>
> --
> Brian Wood
> Ebenezer Enterprises
> http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From tclug at jfoo.org  Tue Nov  1 13:38:45 2011
From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:38:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
Message-ID: <13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>

> My company ,E-commerce based business, is running Q-mail and has a spam
> issue. The server is Redhat and, I am wondering why the hosting provider
> would choose Qmail over Postfix? From what I can see it looks like Qmail
> is a perl program and the daemon running is perl. Is this more secure than
> Postfix? I am inheriting this problem and would like to use postfix and
> spam assassin. Apparently there is a bug in the latest version of spam
> assassin and I have to roll back versions. Please let me know what you
> think. Thank you, Ron

Qmail is C, not perl, but it has a convenient interface that lets
you run perl scripts to do spam filtering.

I've been running qmail for 12+ years. It is incredibly secure, but
I'm not happy with the spam filtering either. You can set up spam
assassin with qmail if you want. I don't have the time to do it.

And qmail doesn't do IPv6, which will kill it as soon as IPv6 becomes
popular (which, last time I checked, was scheduled to occur in 2112,
only 101 short years from now). Does postfix?

John



From random at argle.org  Tue Nov  1 14:39:28 2011
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 14:39:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <4EB04AF0.7020103@argle.org>

On 11/01/2011 01:38 PM, John Gateley wrote:

> And qmail doesn't do IPv6, which will kill it as soon as IPv6 becomes
> popular (which, last time I checked, was scheduled to occur in 2112,
> only 101 short years from now). Does postfix?
> 
Postfix has supported IPv6 for a while now.

There are a few measures one can take on a private e-mail server that
cut down on spam considerably that qmail should support. Simply ensuring
reverse DNS to a valid domain on HELO cuts the spam load considerably.

Does qmail have a filter for SPF checking yet? That can help quite a bit
as well.

-- 
Dan

From xcorvis at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 14:57:33 2011
From: xcorvis at gmail.com (Adam Nave)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:57:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <CAAOshu1mj1YhVr_R2-37XZxXUrVSE-0QnGAonBmtNmjP8s3j7w@mail.gmail.com>

When I was looking at qmail and postfix for an internal mail relay, it
seemed to me that qmail was very secure and stable but lacked some modern
features (which is why it's stable and secure). There are a number of
patches that you can apply to add the desired features, but that involves
patching and compiling with third party code, sometimes multiple sets. I am
also wary of software that hasn't been patched in several years. If there
was a security issue, how long would it take the developers to get on it
and fix it?

In the end I decided I didn't want to muck with qmail. I installed postfix
from an RPM, it already had all the features I needed, it's updated
regularly and it works just fine.

--Adam

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:

> > My company ,E-commerce based business, is running Q-mail and has a spam
> > issue. The server is Redhat and, I am wondering why the hosting provider
> > would choose Qmail over Postfix? From what I can see it looks like Qmail
> > is a perl program and the daemon running is perl. Is this more secure
> than
> > Postfix? I am inheriting this problem and would like to use postfix and
> > spam assassin. Apparently there is a bug in the latest version of spam
> > assassin and I have to roll back versions. Please let me know what you
> > think. Thank you, Ron
>
> Qmail is C, not perl, but it has a convenient interface that lets
> you run perl scripts to do spam filtering.
>
> I've been running qmail for 12+ years. It is incredibly secure, but
> I'm not happy with the spam filtering either. You can set up spam
> assassin with qmail if you want. I don't have the time to do it.
>
> And qmail doesn't do IPv6, which will kill it as soon as IPv6 becomes
> popular (which, last time I checked, was scheduled to occur in 2112,
> only 101 short years from now). Does postfix?
>
> John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From j at packetgod.com  Tue Nov  1 15:06:47 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:06:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
Message-ID: <CADr-735mxwrp6A0T3eoomAfSjD0mL1G=PROWawbsR8dg2akzOA@mail.gmail.com>

I love qmail, I just hate to use it :)  As a security guy I love qmail
and all the other fun DJB joints especially DNS as they are such
elegant simple code, really very simple and secure .  My problem
overall with qmail is that it adheres to standards in e-mail that no
one else does so you get odd bounces from time to time as people
haven't setup their e-mail to the absolute standard or their MTA is
not setup to the standard.

If you want absolute security stick with qmail, if you want lots of
functionality with good security go with Postfix, if you want a
headache go with sendmail :)

--j

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:
>> My company ,E-commerce based business, is running Q-mail and has a spam
>> issue. The server is Redhat and, I am wondering why the hosting provider
>> would choose Qmail over Postfix? From what I can see it looks like Qmail
>> is a perl program and the daemon running is perl. Is this more secure than
>> Postfix? I am inheriting this problem and would like to use postfix and
>> spam assassin. Apparently there is a bug in the latest version of spam
>> assassin and I have to roll back versions. Please let me know what you
>> think. Thank you, Ron
>
> Qmail is C, not perl, but it has a convenient interface that lets
> you run perl scripts to do spam filtering.
>
> I've been running qmail for 12+ years. It is incredibly secure, but
> I'm not happy with the spam filtering either. You can set up spam
> assassin with qmail if you want. I don't have the time to do it.
>
> And qmail doesn't do IPv6, which will kill it as soon as IPv6 becomes
> popular (which, last time I checked, was scheduled to occur in 2112,
> only 101 short years from now). Does postfix?
>
> John
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From florin at iucha.net  Tue Nov  1 15:33:23 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:33:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <4EB04AF0.7020103@argle.org>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
	<4EB04AF0.7020103@argle.org>
Message-ID: <20111101203159.GA16620@styx.iucha.org>

On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 02:39:28PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> There are a few measures one can take on a private e-mail server that
> cut down on spam considerably that qmail should support. Simply ensuring
> reverse DNS to a valid domain on HELO cuts the spam load considerably.

You would be surprised at how many corporate servers sending
legitimate messages are misconfigured in regards to DNS.  Or company X
outsourcing e-mail to company Y, but Y.COM is not a MX for Y.COM.

florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Tue Nov  1 15:49:24 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 15:49:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
Message-ID: <1320180564.32135.10.camel@sysadmin3a>



On Tue, 2011-11-01 at 11:44 -0600, ron at ron-l-j.com wrote:
> My company ,E-commerce based business, is running Q-mail and has a spam
> issue. The server is Redhat and, I am wondering why the hosting provider
> would choose Qmail over Postfix? From what I can see it looks like Qmail
> is a perl program and the daemon running is perl. Is this more secure than
> Postfix? I am inheriting this problem and would like to use postfix and
> spam assassin. Apparently there is a bug in the latest version of spam
> assassin and I have to roll back versions. Please let me know what you
> think. Thank you, Ron

For free, off the shelf, MTA my vote is Postfix. It performed very well
for us handling hundreds of thousands of emails per day. It is very
configurable, very secure, and pretty easy to use/configure.

As dealing with email/spam configurations is pretty boring/annoying to
me now-a-days I would recommend looking at commercial anti-spam service
systems where you only need to change your MX record to use the service
then do all of your configuring through a web GUI. That is of course
assuming you have more than a $0 budget to work with. 

<gentle sales pitch>
I work for a company that has a service like this and is written
completely from the ground up in house and from scratch. Let me know if
you're interested.
</pitch>



From jmore at starmind.org  Tue Nov  1 16:27:22 2011
From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:27:22 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <CADr-735mxwrp6A0T3eoomAfSjD0mL1G=PROWawbsR8dg2akzOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
	<CADr-735mxwrp6A0T3eoomAfSjD0mL1G=PROWawbsR8dg2akzOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3GUt8TzELp9BQKpw-P+gF_uuNTJm=4cA7OVdcU8nCtmy=eHg@mail.gmail.com>

I agree.  As a security guy, qmail is the best there is... presuming you
can layer something into/around it to handle the spam issue.  Back when I
was a Linux admin, it's what I used for years before shifting to the
Qmail-Toaster project which took over a lot of the more annoying back-end
management.  There's a lot to be said for a lot of little unique user
processes working together instead of the monolithic design of
Sendmail/Postfix/Exim/etc.  That said, the system is only as good as its
admins, so when I shifted towards full time security consulting, my qmail
boxes all got changed into Postfix systems (and, later, CommunigatePro)
because the other admins were lazy^H^H^H^H unable to take the time to learn
how to manage Qmail.

-Josh

On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:06 PM, J Cruit <j at packetgod.com> wrote:

> I love qmail, I just hate to use it :)  As a security guy I love qmail
> and all the other fun DJB joints especially DNS as they are such
> elegant simple code, really very simple and secure .  My problem
> overall with qmail is that it adheres to standards in e-mail that no
> one else does so you get odd bounces from time to time as people
> haven't setup their e-mail to the absolute standard or their MTA is
> not setup to the standard.
>
> If you want absolute security stick with qmail, if you want lots of
> functionality with good security go with Postfix, if you want a
> headache go with sendmail :)
>
> --j
>
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:38 PM, John Gateley <tclug at jfoo.org> wrote:
> >> My company ,E-commerce based business, is running Q-mail and has a spam
> >> issue. The server is Redhat and, I am wondering why the hosting provider
> >> would choose Qmail over Postfix? From what I can see it looks like Qmail
> >> is a perl program and the daemon running is perl. Is this more secure
> than
> >> Postfix? I am inheriting this problem and would like to use postfix and
> >> spam assassin. Apparently there is a bug in the latest version of spam
> >> assassin and I have to roll back versions. Please let me know what you
> >> think. Thank you, Ron
> >
> > Qmail is C, not perl, but it has a convenient interface that lets
> > you run perl scripts to do spam filtering.
> >
> > I've been running qmail for 12+ years. It is incredibly secure, but
> > I'm not happy with the spam filtering either. You can set up spam
> > assassin with qmail if you want. I don't have the time to do it.
> >
> > And qmail doesn't do IPv6, which will kill it as soon as IPv6 becomes
> > popular (which, last time I checked, was scheduled to occur in 2112,
> > only 101 short years from now). Does postfix?
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From florin at iucha.net  Tue Nov  1 17:09:24 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:09:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <CAB3GUt8TzELp9BQKpw-P+gF_uuNTJm=4cA7OVdcU8nCtmy=eHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
	<CADr-735mxwrp6A0T3eoomAfSjD0mL1G=PROWawbsR8dg2akzOA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAB3GUt8TzELp9BQKpw-P+gF_uuNTJm=4cA7OVdcU8nCtmy=eHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111101220924.GB16620@styx.iucha.org>

On Tue, Nov 01, 2011 at 04:27:22PM -0500, Josh More wrote:
> There's a lot to be said for a lot of little unique user
> processes working together instead of the monolithic design of
> Sendmail/Postfix/Exim/etc.

Postfix is a bunch of small processes.  Exim is small.

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From dean at ripperd.com  Tue Nov  1 17:20:24 2011
From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean E)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 17:20:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <4EB04AF0.7020103@argle.org>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
	<4EB04AF0.7020103@argle.org>
Message-ID: <4EB070A8.30704@ripperd.com>


On 11/1/2011 2:39 PM, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> Simply ensuring reverse DNS to a valid domain on HELO cuts the spam 
> load considerably.

Unfortunately, there are legitimate mail servers out there that won't 
pass that check. Bouncing or dropping messages based on this alone will 
result in users not receiving legitimate mail (albeit via 
less-than-stellar configured mailservers). i personally turned that on 
and immediately stopped receiving real estate listings notices I had 
subscribed to. DOH!

Personally, I run Postfix and just recently integrated spamassassin into 
it. Works quite well for me.

Side note, at what spamassassin level are you guys dropping/rejecting 
messages rather than just tagging them?

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 17:36:45 2011
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:36:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Any Linux-related Halloween costumes?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111011115530.18856@Dragon>
References: <20111101104111.90fedc514294281de884b39d@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111011115530.18856@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO1wnGAzjG0YT4OVmcdStnJ20G0YR0HWQ_MaiLWVL-Fbnw@mail.gmail.com>

Strange you pose this question. My brother dressed up as a Penguin-

http://jskier.com/media/Penguin.jpg

Don't ask him what Linux is though... :)

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com



On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:22 AM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:
>
>> Have any of you dressed up as a penguin for Halloween or seen anyone doing
>> so?
>
> You ask the weirdest questions, Jason (:
>
>
> I think that for a lot of us, wearing a Linux/UNIX/other-geek related
> clothing is something we do every day anyway, so we don't really need to do
> it on haloween, too!
>
>
> My vote for Best Geek Costume: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn35SB1_NYI
>
>
> (I wore a gorilla suit and scared the trick or treaters).
>
>
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 17:56:18 2011
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:56:18 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08rkA2qGOWuAQHXNXJAahTjrDTanfsccDRiDhJgu3d97zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>
	<4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>
	<20111101101008.7e8c277a2dd98647195d7446@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08rkA2qGOWuAQHXNXJAahTjrDTanfsccDRiDhJgu3d97zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOZLdJVi55mn1A_oa3A9tuGLrryCRG+Dwf43sEch8BHK3_tKsQ@mail.gmail.com>

I can confirm that there's rather a lot of bandwidth available.  It's
on a different internal network, but my desk gets 100Mbps down and
over half that up.  If the data was actually coming from the 511
Building directly (as opposed to just going through there) it would be
faster than the NIC in your machine could handle.  :P

Additionally, we did prepare a new box this time around to serve as a
dedicated disk burning machine.  We only had the Ubuntu ISOs
pre-loaded on it, but I would be happy to add anything you request for
next time.

As far as I know, we've always been open to multiple distros, but
usually the focus is on Ubuntu just because that's what people are
interested in.  The only one I recall seeing a significant number of
people checking out before is Fedora.  We also need to be careful
about who this is for - trying to explain to newcomers that there are
300 different distros for them to choose from is overwhelming.  IMO
it's better for actual newcomers to just be given one to try out, and
then at their second or third installfest they can delve further into
the options available if they wish.  We don't want to scare people
away with too much information - there's already plenty for them to
process!

I'd tend to agree that pre-burning a bunch of CDs/DVDs would be a
waste - better to have the images and media on hand and burn as
needed.

One thing that could be kind of fun that we don't have would be a
machine with a bunch of distros actually installed, so people could
boot into any of them to check them out.

Jason - regarding during-installation downloads on Ubuntu, you should
know that a) that's an option, not required, and b) we finally got the
local archive mirror working such that you can use that option without
going out to the Internet at all.

We don't have the disk space on fish (the archive mirror) for distros
other than Ubuntu, but we do have plenty of disk space on the ISO
burning machine, so shoot me your requests and I'll try to get them
loaded for April.

 - Tony

From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 18:01:26 2011
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 18:01:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <4EB070A8.30704@ripperd.com>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<13464.167.206.189.6.1320172725.squirrel@mail.jfoo.org>
	<4EB04AF0.7020103@argle.org> <4EB070A8.30704@ripperd.com>
Message-ID: <CAOZLdJV82F_AUBspXmCbn41u=5c8p29vK5_v-zsRQ1+E89VF6g@mail.gmail.com>

Another happy Postfix user here, tying into SpamAssassin with the
default level.  My install also works with IPv6, although I doubt we
actually have users taking advantage of that yet.

 - Tony

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Tue Nov  1 18:43:32 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 18:43:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10?
In-Reply-To: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4EB08424.5080606@gmail.com>

On 10/30/2011 11:12 AM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss:
> I wasn't at yesterday's Installfest, so I'd like to hear from those of you who did show up (and those of you who didn't but have tried Ubuntu 11.10 on your own).  I'd especially like to hear from those of you who recently switched to Ubuntu from another OS.
>

All you guys need is Slackware.  I've been using it since the late 90's, 
and it's by far my favorite (desktop & server).

I don't have any free time these days to attend an installfest, but I 
can donate 20 or so Slackware Install DVD's for the next one.

From ron at ron-l-j.com  Wed Nov  2 00:15:57 2011
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:15:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs Postfix
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3175.1320187014.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3175.1320187014.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <fe91e7f4450f90de16b0f939ece972ca.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>

> And qmail doesn't do IPv6, which will kill it as soon as IPv6 becomes
> popular (which, last time I checked, was scheduled to occur in 2112,
> only 101 short years from now). Does postfix?
>
> John


Postfix 2.2 introduces support for the IPv6 (IP version 6) protocol. IPv6
support for older Postfix versions was available as an add-on patch.
Though RedHat 5.x is not in the supported list.
http://www.postfix.org/IPV6_README.html#compat

And yes Qmail does use Perl scripts for managing spam assassin daemon.
Thanks John

> Simply ensuring reverse DNS to a valid domain on HELO cuts the spam
> load considerably.
I will implement reverse DNS lookups thank you.
I did find a good security article for Postfix.

http://www.symantec.com/connect/articles/filtering-e-mail-postfix-and-procmail-part-one

It looks like I will be using Postfix as per recommendation, and the fact
that it comes standard on RedRat. Yaron has a very convincing story about
the woes of Qmail. With colored commentary and a high emphasis on
THOUSANDS! That really made me chuckle THOUSANDS! Thanks man.
I am not sure Qmail skills are widely appreacted as Postfix. I have dug in
a little into Qmail. I think Postfix would be a better place to start for
me.
Thank you all for you sage advice.
,Ron


From ron at ron-l-j.com  Wed Nov  2 02:05:55 2011
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 01:05:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Frameworks and Languages.
Message-ID: <18e3118f32a17e2eabc490673649d8f8.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>

Are we learning worthless garbage by learning frameworks ?
I'm Doing C# development now and I like C and its simple uses. I also like
staying close to the machine when I code. I look at ruby and wonder if it
is worth learning? And I tried iron ruby and its SLOW very slow. Looking
back what has been the biggest change in programming but moving higher
levels and more and more frameworks? It is supposed to increase
development time, but how much C/C++/C#/Objective C could you write in
that time? What do you think is better time invested writing web
applications In a C variant or using html5 css3 JavaScript and
php,perl,python/ruby? I do enjoy python from time to time.
Thanks, Ron


From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Wed Nov  2 04:56:59 2011
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian)
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 04:56:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08rkA2qGOWuAQHXNXJAahTjrDTanfsccDRiDhJgu3d97zQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>	<4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>	<20111101101008.7e8c277a2dd98647195d7446@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08rkA2qGOWuAQHXNXJAahTjrDTanfsccDRiDhJgu3d97zQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EB113EB.9040900@Goecke-Dolan.com>


First, *ANY* and *ALL* distros are welcome at the PenguinsUnbound 
Install Fests!!

We have been working on an Install Fest server, (fish of course to feed 
the hungry penguins!) Because there is only 500mb of disk space on this 
machine I am only able to fit the most current Ubuntu on the server. I 
would be happy to mirror any and alot (don't think I get mirror them 
all!) distributions (cd images or full distribution) when I have disk 
space enough to mirror them. As I said, up to this point I haven't had 
enough disk space to mirror anything more than Ubuntu.

Doug has graciously volunteered the use of his Install Fest server, a 
DL380 G3 with 6x 146GB U320 drives. Which should help.  But I believe 
that disk will also be filled pretty quickly... Ie. I am always looking 
for donations of disk space...

At the Install Fest I usually have had a computer to burning disks. 
Right now I am using a "borrowed" machine from another department. So I 
can't expect that I will have that machine and the disk that goes along 
with it at the next install fest...

As for ties connectivity, well to say the least, it is really good. We 
have multiple Gigabit connections to the Internet, at both TIES building 
and 511. Unfortunately the connections into the Install Fest are limited 
because they are Publicly Accessible networks. But for the most part 
TIES has really good connections.

I would like to thank everyone who helped at the install fest, and 
everyone that came. Thanks. I hope your Linux is running well.

BTW.  I am looking for a speaker for Nov. 19 2011, someone had expressed 
an interest in learning about Samba. And I would love to hear about 
working with newer AD that require kerbos ...

==>brian.
PenguinsUnbound.com circus Ringmaster ;)

BTW. Kalabe(sp) could you drop me an email I lost your email address...


On 11/01/2011 10:29 AM, Erik Anderson wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Jason Hsu<jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>  wrote:
>>   I don't think the wireless network at TIES can handle that many Ubuntu installations at once.
>
> Umm, methinks the wireless will be just fine, and wired is always an
> option as well. As far as upstream bandwidth goes, I'm fairly certain
> that TIES has one (if not multiple) several-hundred Mbit or perhaps
> even 1 Gbit circuits to 511 downtown. They push a *lot* of data
> through that building.
>
> Perhaps Brian can quantify exactly what they have going on there.
>
> -Erik
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 05:20:02 2011
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 05:20:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest suggestion: other distros
In-Reply-To: <4EB113EB.9040900@Goecke-Dolan.com>
References: <20111101010104.af23a3f9ab683bdef7711fb4@jasonhsu.com>	<4EAF9080.7020809@gmail.com>	<20111101101008.7e8c277a2dd98647195d7446@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08rkA2qGOWuAQHXNXJAahTjrDTanfsccDRiDhJgu3d97zQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EB113EB.9040900@Goecke-Dolan.com>
Message-ID: <4EB11952.9030509@gmail.com>

On 11/2/2011 4:56 AM, Brian wrote:
> Doug has graciously volunteered the use of his Install Fest server, a 
> DL380 G3 with 6x 146GB U320 drives. Which should help.  But I believe 
> that disk will also be filled pretty quickly... Ie. I am always looking 
> for donations of disk space...
Aside from the more portable drives I mentioned earlier, I have an
external enclosure with 2x2TB drives, and just over 1TB free between
them that I could bring along. I only have a cord to connect it via
FireWire, though (it can also connect via USB2.0).

From andyzib at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 09:05:02 2011
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:05:02 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Qmail vs postfix
In-Reply-To: <1320180564.32135.10.camel@sysadmin3a>
References: <55fb975692c96c1d1efa7510421b59c0.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<1320180564.32135.10.camel@sysadmin3a>
Message-ID: <CAMh5oVrYNgCdYOJT8LbjxoevfjEit9oqZLPd9dcbh6oj5Yo-Ow@mail.gmail.com>

> As dealing with email/spam configurations is pretty boring/annoying to
> me now-a-days I would recommend looking at commercial anti-spam service
> systems where you only need to change your MX record to use the service
> then do all of your configuring through a web GUI. That is of course
> assuming you have more than a $0 budget to work with.

This is definitely worth looking into. Postini from Google is one such
service, $1 per mailbox per month I believe. Mail Route is another
(http://www.mailroute.info/), and of course there is Justin's company.
As an added benefit these services will also spool your mail in the
event of your mail server being down. We do this often with Postini.
Really nice as you don't have to do anything with DNS when migrating
from Exchange 2003 to 2007, 2010, or whatever mail service you're
implementing. Just spool the mail on Postini, do your mail server
work, configure the mail server to accept mail from Postini, make sure
Postini is configured to send mail to the new server, and then release
the spool. Great way for any business to get the email server
resiliency they should have at a low price.


-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com

From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 09:55:53 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 09:55:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Frameworks and Languages.
In-Reply-To: <18e3118f32a17e2eabc490673649d8f8.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
References: <18e3118f32a17e2eabc490673649d8f8.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE8H6eUwLR48WhzmwKZvXYY=RiqR-ixgQzNYnnY10571Xg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 2:05 AM, <ron at ron-l-j.com> wrote:

> Are we learning worthless garbage by learning frameworks ?
> I'm Doing C# development now and I like C and its simple uses. I also like
> staying close to the machine when I code. I look at ruby and wonder if it
> is worth learning? And I tried iron ruby and its SLOW very slow. Looking
> back what has been the biggest change in programming but moving higher
> levels and more and more frameworks? It is supposed to increase
> development time, but how much C/C++/C#/Objective C could you write in
> that time? What do you think is better time invested writing web
> applications In a C variant or using html5 css3 JavaScript and
> php,perl,python/ruby? I do enjoy python from time to time.
> Thanks, Ron
>

Frameworks automate repetitive tasks.  They provide skeletons that save you
the hassle of doing a lot of heavy lifting.  Some frameworks (like Rails)
also strive to reduce clutter by emphasizing "convention over
configuration".   Frameworks like that are a little more challenging to
wrap your head around at first because relationships of code to
functionality and flow of control are implied, not explicit.  But once you
get your head around that your workflow becomes faster - your
product-specific code less cluttered.   Frameworks for various problem
domains exist in nearly every language - that should inform you that they
are adding value in a language-independent way.

Frameworks are a double-edged sword, however.  People who learn frameworks
without fully understanding they heavy-lifting the framework is doing are
often trapped there.   Also, sometimes frameworks simply change the
time-cost of implementing some functionality without reducing it.

Anyway - I'm not sure if ironruby (or any ruby) is a good yardstick for
other languages and frameworks.  Ruby specifically has some language
features that seem to cause performance headaches that Python doesn't
have.  For what it's worth I'm more productive in languages and runtime
environments like perl/ruby/python and even java versus straight C
environments.  But not everyone's the same - I have a friend who can bang
out functionality in straight-C astonishingly quickly.  His code makes my
brain want to explode at times - but it's still pretty impressive. :)

-Rob
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From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Wed Nov  2 10:27:57 2011
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2011 10:27:57 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Frameworks and Languages.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3213.1320242712.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3213.1320242712.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <4EB1617D.7060409@twp-llc.com>

On 11/02/2011 01:05 AM, ron wrote:
> From:ron at ron-l-j.com
> Are we learning worthless garbage by learning frameworks ?
In a word, no. That's my opinion, of course.
> I'm Doing C# development now and I like C and its simple uses. I also like
> staying close to the machine when I code.
I went to school for electrical engineering, so I am very familiar with 
low level code. I *love* to write in C when I can. It's so transparent. 
You never have to look very hard to find exactly which function is 
called, you can't overload anything, etc. It is absolutely the best 
choice when writing device drivers and most parts of an operating 
system. I worked many years as an embedded programmer and really enjoyed 
it. There are not a ton of jobs for embedded programmers. The companies 
who need that kind of work make hardware, and the low level code in them 
and near them (drivers) make them work. It's key technology for those 
companies.
> I look at ruby and wonder if it is worth learning?
Only you can answer if it's worth it *for you*. My path led me to 
contract work, so there are even fewer embedded coding jobs. In contract 
work, you get paid to *finish* things. Higher level languages allow us 
to do that in less time. When I started contracting, I had a little 
experience in Windows development, so that's the kind of work I could 
get. It was (and still is) OK. It's a job. C#, Java, C++, Objective C - 
they all let you focus on your customer's key differentiator: How they 
are special and different from everyone else. They probably don't need 
hand-coded assembly to show that off, and that's OK.
>   And I tried iron ruby and its SLOW very slow.
That's not really a roadblock. Iron Ruby is one way to run Ruby code on 
Windows. I'm not aware of any web site at all that actually runs on Iron 
Ruby. I'm probably wrong, but I know most do not.
>   Looking
> back what has been the biggest change in programming but moving higher
> levels and more and more frameworks? It is supposed to increase
> development time, but how much C/C++/C#/Objective C could you write in
> that time? What do you think is better time invested writing web
> applications In a C variant or using html5 css3 JavaScript and
> php,perl,python/ruby? I do enjoy python from time to time.
While I was writing Windows code, I was not happy about much of the 
work. Some of that was the platform, some was the kind of customers who 
use the platform. I had heard of Ruby before, and Rails started to get 
some traction in 2006. I carved out some free time and taught myself 
Ruby and Rails. I started attending local user group meetings and 
getting involved in the community. I took training. I got a small gig 
helping a fitness studio get online.

Ruby on Rails let me build a complete web site from scratch for a very 
small company in *four days*. One more day was spent by a designer 
making my pages look nice. There's no way I could have been so 
productive in C in such a short time frame.

There are many ways to make Rails code run fast enough, and a few to 
make it really fly, but it all depends on exactly what your specific app 
is doing to tune it well. It goes along with the mix of languages you 
mentioned. 1) In a Rails app, there's Ruby code for sure. 2) You talk to 
a database, which is a very complex piece of software. If your web app 
requires complex database queries, you'll need to know SQL very well. 3 
and 4) Web browsers only know HTML and CSS, so you need to know them. 5) 
If your pages are going to have anything eye catching at all, you'll 
need JavaScript. That's *five* languages or syntaxes so far. Rails also 
let you use SCSS and CoffeeScript, so two more languages, and you can 
add HAML if you like and now you're up to eight - plus the testing 
frameworks: Test::Unit, RSpec, Cucumber, and so on. Each is a great fit 
for its purpose, and learning more languages helps you be more flexible 
in your thought - invaluable when you write code.

I've been doing Rails work full time for the past three years, and I 
love how much it frees me of the details and drudgery of the low level 
stuff. I don't want to know about garbage collection or memory usage 
unless there's a real bottleneck in a performance test. Plus I get to 
use Linux on my laptop every single day because the web apps are usually 
deployed on Linux. The pay is pretty good too.

I do remember CGI, but I never wrote a complex web app in C. I hope I 
never will.

Best,
Chris


From canito at dalan.us  Thu Nov  3 10:30:52 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 10:30:52 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Fedora File System Hierchy/GoboLinux
Message-ID: <20111103103052.6mdaoty11s0008o8@mail.dalan.us>

I was reading this article about Fedora moving files to /usr and saw a  
reference to GoboLinux which puts all files pertaining to packages  
under /Programs

I thought it was kinda cool that they took this route. I don't know  
how I would get used to it, if the de facto standard ever changed.

When installing packages in FreeBSD everything goes under /usr and  
/usr/local/etc for configuration files and init scripts, so right on  
for Fedora!

Anyhow, the reason I am writing this is cause it made me think of  
Jason Hu since he is developing Swift Linux. Since I don't use Debian  
based distros, do they also follow the same convention and put  
everything under the /usr directory?

http://www.osnews.com/story/25289/Fedora_To_Simplify_Filesystem_Hierarchy_Move_Everything_to_usr

GoboLinux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoboLinux
http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?lang=en_US&page=k5

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From canito at dalan.us  Thu Nov  3 11:47:58 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 11:47:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Fedora File System Hierchy/GoboLinux
In-Reply-To: <20111103103052.6mdaoty11s0008o8@mail.dalan.us>
References: <20111103103052.6mdaoty11s0008o8@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <20111103114758.r6g1i320092lcc00@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting David Alanis <canito at dalan.us>:

> I was reading this article about Fedora moving files to /usr and saw a
> reference to GoboLinux which puts all files pertaining to packages
> under /Programs
>
> I thought it was kinda cool that they took this route. I don't know how
> I would get used to it, if the de facto standard ever changed.
>
> When installing packages in FreeBSD everything goes under /usr and
> /usr/local/etc for configuration files and init scripts, so right on
> for Fedora!

Long night. I should note that I was speaking from experience when I  
said that FreeBSD puts all package files under /usr and configuration  
files under /usr/local/etc. Not that Fedora is putting the  
configuration files under /usr/local/etc.

>
> Anyhow, the reason I am writing this is cause it made me think of Jason
> Hu since he is developing Swift Linux. Since I don't use Debian based
> distros, do they also follow the same convention and put everything
> under the /usr directory?
>

What made me think about Jason is that he is always discussing  
different Linux distros. And the fact the GoboLinux puts all files  
under /Programs makes it unique, like Jason.

> http://www.osnews.com/story/25289/Fedora_To_Simplify_Filesystem_Hierarchy_Move_Everything_to_usr
>
> GoboLinux
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoboLinux
> http://www.gobolinux.org/index.php?lang=en_US&page=k5
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sat Nov  5 17:58:53 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 17:58:53 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
Message-ID: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>

Is it just me, or is it only the lightweight distros that come with the Conky display showing the memory usage enabled?  I know antiX Linux has Conky displayed out-of-the-box, and I've only seen that feature in a handful of other distros, such as Damn Small Linux and CrunchBang.

I can't recall ever seeing Conky's display of memory usage enabled in a heavyweight distro.

In my cynical opinion, I think this is no accident.  The most lightweight distros WANT you to see how much RAM is in use.  antiX Linux looks good when it shows that it's only using something like 40 MB at idle.  The heavyweight distros don't want you to see how much RAM is in use because it would make them look grossly inefficient.  It doesn't look good if the OS needs 500 MB of RAM just to idle and 2+ GB of RAM to do actual work.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Nov  5 19:42:03 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:42:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111051931430.32411@Dragon>

Jason, I have to ask, how old are you?


The first computer I ran Linux on has 2 megabytes of RAM. It was a 386SX, 
ran at 16MHz, and I had to beg, borrow and steal (metaphorically) to get 
the 200mb harddrive I needed to get Linux going.

Back then all these things were really important to pretty much everyone 
running Linux. Because all of us, 100% of us, were hobbyists. Not one 
single person was running Linux in a business environment, or really using 
it for anything critical or even important. I was still dual-booting into 
DOS to get my FidoMail!


Yes, there are still a lot of hobbyist out there, and that element still 
exists for most of us, even the ones running Linux full-time and adminning 
THOUSANDS of Linux machines for their job.

And I do realise that there still are a lot of people using "old" hardware 
to run Linux on (and "old" is in quotes because compared to that 386sx I 
mentioned, your hardware is brand spankin' new) and to those people that 
memory footprint is important.

But you do have to realise that a lot of people -- a LOT of people -- are 
running Linux full-time on fully functional current or even 
cutting-edge-modern machines. And see, THIS WAS THE DREAM for a long time 
- Linux taking it's place as a desktop OS.

Some of us are running Linux on machines with Intel i7 CPUs, two GPUs, 
three monitors, 24 gigs of RAM and several TERABYTES of harddrive space. 
I'm running a pretty big-footprint Ubuntu right now (although I don't run 
Gnome/Unity/KDE on it). You know how much of my RAM is currently being 
used? 5%. I still have a memory monitor on my desktop but frankly it's 
more a legacy thing plus I think it looks neat. I'm not running out of 
memory anytime soon, even if I do have a bunch of browsers open, am 
building JAVA apps, transcoding video and running several VMs.

There's room for all of us, Jason. Your usage of Linux is not the only way 
people use the thing.




On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> Is it just me, or is it only the lightweight distros that come with the Conky display showing the memory usage enabled?  I know antiX Linux has Conky displayed out-of-the-box, and I've only seen that feature in a handful of other distros, such as Damn Small Linux and CrunchBang.
>
> I can't recall ever seeing Conky's display of memory usage enabled in a heavyweight distro.
>
> In my cynical opinion, I think this is no accident.  The most lightweight distros WANT you to see how much RAM is in use.  antiX Linux looks good when it shows that it's only using something like 40 MB at idle.  The heavyweight distros don't want you to see how much RAM is in use because it would make them look grossly inefficient.  It doesn't look good if the OS needs 500 MB of RAM just to idle and 2+ GB of RAM to do actual work.
>
> -- 
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-Yaron

--

From erikerik at gmail.com  Sat Nov  5 20:24:39 2011
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:24:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08qo8ZjbnB2VQ7n_fsgk0EycqhS1m=g4q0kK9wrcpvspnA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> In my cynical opinion, I think this is no accident. ?The most lightweight distros WANT you to see
> how much RAM is in use. ?antiX Linux looks good when it shows that it's only using something
> like 40 MB at idle. ?The heavyweight distros don't want you to see how much RAM is in use
> because it would make them look grossly inefficient. ?It doesn't look good if the OS needs 500 MB
> of RAM just to idle and 2+ GB of RAM to do actual work.

Why would you not want your RAM to be used? If it's not being used
actively, it's a waste of money and resources. I get upset if I'm not
seeing my linux systems' RAM usage in the 85-95% range consistently.
What doesn't get used for active processes gets used for read cache,
which is a good thing(tm).

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Sat Nov  5 21:08:16 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 02:08:16 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111051931430.32411@Dragon>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111051931430.32411@Dragon>
Message-ID: <1226076458-1320545296-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749342841-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>

I agree with Yaron's general sentiments. My own preference has changed several times over the last 12+ years I've been using *nix on the desktop. I used to be into cutting edge stuff and using Gentoo really helped me learn the insides of a linux OS and had (has?) a real active user community. It also has some cool features like their Portage software management system (yes shamlessly based on BSD ports) and continual up-to-date-ness with respect to distro release versions.

I floated around for a while but over the last 2 years or so have been real happy with Ubuntu on my desktops and laptops. I've all of the fancy bells and whistles turned on within gnome in my 3 monitor desktop and an old XP I virtualized now running in vmware workstation for those couple of windows only apps. With SSD and tons of RAM I don't see any reason to spend (waste) time tweaking every little detail to gain a few extra cycles from my system. I'd rather be productive with my time instead of tinkering all the time. That said when a problem does arise I have the know-how + google to get my issues resolved. I just want my computer to work. When I want to play games I fire up Heroes of Newerth or even some real old school FPS's like UT2004 or Q3 or anything in Dosbox for the old classics. But with all the web based games it makes OS's less relevant. Check out Gemcraft, its a pretty sweet series of flash based tower defense games.

A personal general rule of thumb, if I have to spend a bunch of time figuring out how to make something work its probably not worth my time.

When I see people running Win7 get a BSOD I just laugh and laugh thinking "I am SO glad I don't deal with winwoes anymore" especially when I am  wearing my t-shirt that says "The box said requires Windows 98 or better, so I installed Linux" so I can rub in their face my freedom from some of those egregious annoyances.

Jason, I figured you'd be a fan of OpenBSD with their strict adherence to code correctness and removing wasteful code and code with unfriendly licenses (proprietary code, GPL, etc) from their base OS which leaves a generally smaller footprint in terms of resource utilization.

Perhaps more than $0.02 but you can keep the change.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:42:03 
To: TCLUG<tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled

Jason, I have to ask, how old are you?


The first computer I ran Linux on has 2 megabytes of RAM. It was a 386SX, 
ran at 16MHz, and I had to beg, borrow and steal (metaphorically) to get 
the 200mb harddrive I needed to get Linux going.

Back then all these things were really important to pretty much everyone 
running Linux. Because all of us, 100% of us, were hobbyists. Not one 
single person was running Linux in a business environment, or really using 
it for anything critical or even important. I was still dual-booting into 
DOS to get my FidoMail!


Yes, there are still a lot of hobbyist out there, and that element still 
exists for most of us, even the ones running Linux full-time and adminning 
THOUSANDS of Linux machines for their job.

And I do realise that there still are a lot of people using "old" hardware 
to run Linux on (and "old" is in quotes because compared to that 386sx I 
mentioned, your hardware is brand spankin' new) and to those people that 
memory footprint is important.

But you do have to realise that a lot of people -- a LOT of people -- are 
running Linux full-time on fully functional current or even 
cutting-edge-modern machines. And see, THIS WAS THE DREAM for a long time 
- Linux taking it's place as a desktop OS.

Some of us are running Linux on machines with Intel i7 CPUs, two GPUs, 
three monitors, 24 gigs of RAM and several TERABYTES of harddrive space. 
I'm running a pretty big-footprint Ubuntu right now (although I don't run 
Gnome/Unity/KDE on it). You know how much of my RAM is currently being 
used? 5%. I still have a memory monitor on my desktop but frankly it's 
more a legacy thing plus I think it looks neat. I'm not running out of 
memory anytime soon, even if I do have a bunch of browsers open, am 
building JAVA apps, transcoding video and running several VMs.

There's room for all of us, Jason. Your usage of Linux is not the only way 
people use the thing.




On Sat, 5 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> Is it just me, or is it only the lightweight distros that come with the Conky display showing the memory usage enabled?  I know antiX Linux has Conky displayed out-of-the-box, and I've only seen that feature in a handful of other distros, such as Damn Small Linux and CrunchBang.
>
> I can't recall ever seeing Conky's display of memory usage enabled in a heavyweight distro.
>
> In my cynical opinion, I think this is no accident.  The most lightweight distros WANT you to see how much RAM is in use.  antiX Linux looks good when it shows that it's only using something like 40 MB at idle.  The heavyweight distros don't want you to see how much RAM is in use because it would make them look grossly inefficient.  It doesn't look good if the OS needs 500 MB of RAM just to idle and 2+ GB of RAM to do actual work.
>
> -- 
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-Yaron

--
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Nov  5 21:35:32 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 21:35:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <1226076458-1320545296-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749342841-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111051931430.32411@Dragon>
	<1226076458-1320545296-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749342841-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111052134540.804@Dragon>


On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Justin Krejci wrote:

> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

You typed all that on a blackberry??? You must have the proportional 
finger strength of a SPIDER!

-Yaron

--

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sat Nov  5 22:23:45 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:23:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <1226076458-1320545296-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749342841-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111051931430.32411@Dragon>
	<1226076458-1320545296-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749342841-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>
Message-ID: <20111105222345.59105fb969ce82486ca0c9ec@jasonhsu.com>

On Sun, 6 Nov 2011 02:08:16 +0000
"Justin Krejci" <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:
> 
> Jason, I figured you'd be a fan of OpenBSD with their strict adherence to code correctness and removing wasteful code and code with unfriendly licenses (proprietary code, GPL, etc) from their base OS which leaves a generally smaller footprint in terms of resource utilization.
> 
I've tried BSD, and I didn't like it.  I couldn't figure out how to dual-boot Linux and BSD, as BSD has a peculiar partitioning system I couldn't figure out.  PC-BSD actually felt heavier than any Linux distro I had tried, even Ubuntu LTS and Linux Mint 9.  (This was before I tried Ubuntu 11.04.)  So it didn't seem to be worth the trouble of using it.  If I absolutely had to learn to heavily tweak an OS to get the everyday functionality I wanted, my top choice would be Debian.  At least I have successfully installed a firewall/server computer with minimal Debian.  Of course, my opinion is biased by the fact that most of my Linux experience has been with Debian-based distros.  (Damn Small Linux was based on KNOPPIX, which was based on Debian.  antiX Linux, MEPIS Linux, Ubuntu, and Mint are all also part of the Debian side of the Distroverse.)  I've been using Debian-based distros because more distros are based on Debian than any other base distro, and the hardware support is b
 etter.

That said, since I like Linux so much, I'm not that motivated to get up and running with BSD.  I'm guessing that BSD today is in a similar position as Linux in the late 1990s.  (I didn't start using Linux until early 2007.)

In my opinion, Linux Mint Debian Edition offers the best balance between lightweight performance and user-friendliness.  It replicates the feel of the traditional Ubuntu-based editions of Linux Mint without the Ubuntu overhead.  In fact, LMDE with GNOME (which I'm trying out now in VirtualBox) feels faster with only 512 MB of RAM than Ubuntu and Linux Mint 11 with GNOME did with 2 GB of RAM.

It actually doesn't require that much space and RAM to provide a user-friendly interface.  Puppy Linux, antiX Linux, and especially SliTaz Linux are still proving that even today.  Puppy Linux and antiX Linux work well on computers as old as the Windows 98 era.  SliTaz Linux works well on computers as old as the Windows 95 era.  I'm surprised that the ROX Pinboard desktop isn't more popular.  All of these lightweight distros use it.  In fact, I think Puppy Linux has the best menu system and desktop of any distro I've used.  If it had as large a repository as Debian, Ubuntu, Slackware, Arch, etc., it would be the perfect distro.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Sun Nov  6 01:37:00 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 07:37:00 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111052134540.804@Dragon>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111051931430.32411@Dragon>
	<1226076458-1320545296-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-749342841-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111052134540.804@Dragon>
Message-ID: <566933002-1320565022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-125373962-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>

Had some time to kill and believe it or not I typed all that using toothpicks held by my eyelids. :)



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 21:35:32 
To: TCLUG<tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled


On Sun, 6 Nov 2011, Justin Krejci wrote:

> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

You typed all that on a blackberry??? You must have the proportional 
finger strength of a SPIDER!

-Yaron

--
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Sun Nov  6 21:31:41 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 21:31:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4EB7511D.4000008@gmail.com>

On 11/5/2011 5:58 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss:
>
> In my cynical opinion, I think this is no accident.  The most
> lightweight distros WANT you to see how much RAM is in use.  antiX
> Linux looks good when it shows that it's only using something like 40
> MB at idle.  The heavyweight distros don't want you to see how much
> RAM is in use because it would make them look grossly inefficient.
> It doesn't look good if the OS needs 500 MB of RAM just to idle and
> 2+ GB of RAM to do actual work.
>

They are not being cynical.

Let's be real here.  8G of RAM (DDR3) costs about $40.00 these days 
pretty much anywhere for desktop use.  Based on this, who cares how much 
ram is being consumed during idle for a desktop.  If it's not enough, 
$40.00 more will get you up to 16Gigs.

What you call Heavy Weight/bloated I call normal.


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Nov  7 10:19:14 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:19:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <4EB7511D.4000008@gmail.com>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
	<4EB7511D.4000008@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111107101914.5f5e79725864055145ece99e@jasonhsu.com>

On Sun, 06 Nov 2011 21:31:41 -0600
"Mr. B-o-B" <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Let's be real here.  8G of RAM (DDR3) costs about $40.00 these days 
> pretty much anywhere for desktop use.  Based on this, who cares how much 
> ram is being consumed during idle for a desktop.  If it's not enough, 
> $40.00 more will get you up to 16Gigs.
> 
> What you call Heavy Weight/bloated I call normal.
> 
Hehe, the computers I have max out at 2-4 GB of RAM.  This year, I've given away two desktop computers that maxed out at 512 MB of RAM.  One of these desktops had a 4.3 GB hard drive.

As a Linux user, I don't plan to EVER buy a new desktop computer again.  Desktop computers depreciate rapidly, which is good news for the buyers of used computers.  In a few years, I'm sure there will be $50 desktop computers with 16 GB of RAM.  I bet that the expiration of Windows XP support will unleash a flood of used computers and really depress used computer prices.  That will be an opportunity to bridge the digital divide by putting Linux on the used computers and giving them to poor people who can't afford new computers.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Nov  7 10:35:32 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:35:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu and Unity in VirtualBox
Message-ID: <20111107103532.6be46ac2bd5ab987c9d5f121@jasonhsu.com>

I'm curious about the new Unity interface in Ubuntu, and I'd like to try it out for myself.

Have any of you made Ubuntu with Unity work in VirtualBox?  I tried booting up the Ubuntu ISO with 2 GB of RAM, 128 MB of video memory, and 3D acceleration enabled, but Ubuntu was stuck in GNOME.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov  7 12:18:45 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:18:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <20111107101914.5f5e79725864055145ece99e@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
	<4EB7511D.4000008@gmail.com>
	<20111107101914.5f5e79725864055145ece99e@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111071212310.19536@Dragon>

On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> As a Linux user,

Aha, that's the root of the problem.

No, it's not as a "Linux user" that you don't think you'll need a 
current-level powerful desktop. It's just the kind of COMPUTER user you 
are.

Ten, maybe fifteen years ago I was also using low-end machines to get 
computers to do what I wanted, and I was using Linux BECAUSE it was the 
only OS that could do the things I wanted on the hardware I could get my 
hands on. I didn't need to spend tons of money on equipment back then.

Nowadays, though... you know, I could still get low-end machines to do the 
things I need, but it would take them days if not weeks to accomplish 
those tasks. There was a time when you needed Windows or a mac to do a lot 
of this stuff, no matter how modern your computer was. Nowadays, 
thankfully, Linux can do a lot of them.

What I'm trying to say is your needs and lifestyle should dictate your OS, 
not the other way round.




-Yaron

--

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Mon Nov  7 12:53:12 2011
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:53:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
Message-ID: <CABWFOjs438RzGL2ZDm-aj3cat2f_NbbRtaxuXiuaBMO5DBTjxA@mail.gmail.com>

Jason Hsu:
> As a Linux user, I don't plan to EVER buy a new desktop computer again.

I too tend to be drawn toward used machines.  2 years ago I got a dual
core,
4 gb ram, 500 gb hdd for $200.  I'm not sure why the guy was selling it so
cheaply, but it is still working fine.

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov  7 14:24:21 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 14:24:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] The distros with Conky enabled
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111071212310.19536@Dragon>
References: <20111105175853.8b1e181b53dfda1bacac1831@jasonhsu.com>
	<4EB7511D.4000008@gmail.com>
	<20111107101914.5f5e79725864055145ece99e@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111071212310.19536@Dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111071405090.31420@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 7 Nov 2011, Yaron wrote:

> What I'm trying to say is your needs and lifestyle should dictate your 
> OS, not the other way round.

I use a lot of different machines for a lot of different purposes. 
Sometimes I have 64 GB of RAM and sometimes 1 GB of RAM.  Sometimes I'm 
using a 5 TB RAID and sometimes a single 6 GB HDD.  Like most of you I can 
remember when 1 GB RAM with 6 GB HDD was a mind-blowingly amazing monster 
of a system that would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars (or much, 
much more if you want to go back even farther in time).  When I first used 
Linux in about 1996, it was working great, doing X11 in color for a lot 
less money than our Sun computers.  Maybe we had 16 MB of RAM back then 
and maybe a 750 MB HDD, but that's all, and Linux ran beautifully on that.

I know that RAM prices and HDD prices are really low now compared to just 
a few years ago (though HDD just shot way up because of Thailand flooding, 
supposedly), but it's still great to be able to use old hardware around 
the house for things like playing music by streaming MP3 files across the 
home network.

So I think it is important that people are willing to work on maintaining 
Linux distros that allow us to use old, cheap machines.  More options is 
better.  Maybe I'll try Swift Linux on an old box sometime soon.

Mike

From Eric at mixeduperic.com  Mon Nov  7 15:58:09 2011
From: Eric at mixeduperic.com (Eric Lovrien)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:58:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu and Unity in VirtualBox
In-Reply-To: <20111107103532.6be46ac2bd5ab987c9d5f121@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111107103532.6be46ac2bd5ab987c9d5f121@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAA1dBGHRWzbdWoAUzfmODVerYmHLKBGtuNK2fhperXKW-5xy1Q@mail.gmail.com>

Have you tried to install the virtualbox add for Ubuntu?

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I'm curious about the new Unity interface in Ubuntu, and I'd like to try
> it out for myself.
>
> Have any of you made Ubuntu with Unity work in VirtualBox?  I tried
> booting up the Ubuntu ISO with 2 GB of RAM, 128 MB of video memory, and 3D
> acceleration enabled, but Ubuntu was stuck in GNOME.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Nov  7 16:57:20 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 16:57:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu and Unity in VirtualBox
In-Reply-To: <CAA1dBGHRWzbdWoAUzfmODVerYmHLKBGtuNK2fhperXKW-5xy1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111107103532.6be46ac2bd5ab987c9d5f121@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA1dBGHRWzbdWoAUzfmODVerYmHLKBGtuNK2fhperXKW-5xy1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111107165720.6751f25a3c8545c4da09b729@jasonhsu.com>

Add what?  I have no idea what you're talking about.

On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:58:09 -0600
Eric Lovrien <Eric at mixeduperic.com> wrote:

> Have you tried to install the virtualbox add for Ubuntu?
> 


-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From xcorvis at gmail.com  Mon Nov  7 17:24:24 2011
From: xcorvis at gmail.com (Adam Nave)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 17:24:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu and Unity in VirtualBox
In-Reply-To: <20111107165720.6751f25a3c8545c4da09b729@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111107103532.6be46ac2bd5ab987c9d5f121@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA1dBGHRWzbdWoAUzfmODVerYmHLKBGtuNK2fhperXKW-5xy1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111107165720.6751f25a3c8545c4da09b729@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAAOshu0Qx7rujuVz5q6raGCNLMrUVqn1YXk6eeejW5oNEZMx4g@mail.gmail.com>

He's suggesting that you need to install the virtual machine guest
additions before it works properly.

I do have it working, I can't remember the exact steps but I don't have 3D
enabled, just 2D and only 64 MB of video RAM. Unity was updated to have a
2D version so you don't need 3D to run it any more. I installed the virtual
machine additions and the non-GPL  VirtualBox Extension Pack.

It works, it's sufficient for occasional usage, beyond that I don't really
have much to say about it.

--Adam

On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> Add what?  I have no idea what you're talking about.
>
> On Mon, 7 Nov 2011 15:58:09 -0600
> Eric Lovrien <Eric at mixeduperic.com> wrote:
>
> > Have you tried to install the virtualbox add for Ubuntu?
> >
>
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tompoe at meltel.net  Tue Nov  8 15:49:57 2011
From: tompoe at meltel.net (tom)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 15:49:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
Message-ID: <1320788997.7295.2.camel@taichi>

Occupy St Cloud is ramping up.  Our group wants to participate in
livestream and global revolution.  Any techies that live in or near St
Cloud that understand how to do that, please contact me and we'll meet
on Thursday at 7PM in the library at St Cloud State University.
Thanks, Tom


From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 15:57:51 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:57:51 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <1320788997.7295.2.camel@taichi>
References: <1320788997.7295.2.camel@taichi>
Message-ID: <CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm glad to hear that the focus of this movement is finally been
brought to the real enemy: ST. CLOUD!!!

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:49 PM, tom <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> Occupy St Cloud is ramping up. ?Our group wants to participate in
> livestream and global revolution. ?Any techies that live in or near St
> Cloud that understand how to do that, please contact me and we'll meet
> on Thursday at 7PM in the library at St Cloud State University.
> Thanks, Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From canito at dalan.us  Tue Nov  8 16:32:39 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 16:32:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1320788997.7295.2.camel@taichi>
	<CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111108163239.1lvrik56fhi0csgg@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>:

> I'm glad to hear that the focus of this movement is finally been
> brought to the real enemy: ST. CLOUD!!!

HAHAHAH! Not!


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Nov  8 16:22:48 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 16:22:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <20111108163239.1lvrik56fhi0csgg@mail.dalan.us>
References: <1320788997.7295.2.camel@taichi>
	<CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111108163239.1lvrik56fhi0csgg@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111081622120.11829@Dragon>

On Tue, 8 Nov 2011, David Alanis wrote:

>> I'm glad to hear that the focus of this movement is finally been
>> brought to the real enemy: ST. CLOUD!!!
>
> HAHAHAH! Not!

Hey, those are the people who keep voting Michelle Bachmann into office. 
If that doesn't scare you, you're not paying enough attention.

/overt politics


-Yaron

--

From swaite at sbn-services.com  Tue Nov  8 17:09:35 2011
From: swaite at sbn-services.com (Sean Waite)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:09:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320793775.4eb9b6af1a87f@g3.sbn-services.com>

About time we do something about those St. Cloudians, what with their
uppity oh so holier than thou attitudes coming 
down to Minneapolis trying to show up us peasants. I say right on, let
me get my pitchfork out of the closet and let's roll baby.

You know who else hated St. Cloud? Yep thats right....

At Tuesday, 08-11-2011 on 15:57 Erik Mitchell wrote:

I'm glad to hear that the focus of this movement is finally been
brought to the real enemy: ST. CLOUD!!!

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:49 PM, tom  wrote:
> Occupy St Cloud is ramping up. ?Our group wants to participate in
> livestream and global revolution. ?Any techies that live in or near
St
> Cloud that understand how to do that, please contact me and we'll
meet
> on Thursday at 7PM in the library at St Cloud State University.
> Thanks, Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


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From tompoe at meltel.net  Tue Nov  8 17:46:37 2011
From: tompoe at meltel.net (tom)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 17:46:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <1320793775.4eb9b6af1a87f@g3.sbn-services.com>
References: <CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320793775.4eb9b6af1a87f@g3.sbn-services.com>
Message-ID: <1320795997.7734.3.camel@taichi>

I went to city hall, yesterday.  I picked up a copy of the St. Cloud
franchise ordinance that Bresnan Communications holds for city cable.
As expected, the city officials sold out city residents with one of the
most outrageous assaults I've seen on Minnesotans' right to public
access television rights.

I just thought there might be some linux techies that might want to help
straighten out our local corrupt officials.  Hope I'm not wrong in
thinking that.
Tom

On Tue, 2011-11-08 at 17:09 -0600, Sean Waite wrote:
> About time we do something about those St. Cloudians, what with their
> uppity oh so holier than thou attitudes coming 
> down to Minneapolis trying to show up us peasants. I say right on, let
> me get my pitchfork out of the closet and let's roll baby.
> 
> You know who else hated St. Cloud? Yep thats right....
> 
> At Tuesday, 08-11-2011 on 15:57 Erik Mitchell wrote:
>         I'm glad to hear that the focus of this movement is finally
>         been
>         brought to the real enemy: ST. CLOUD!!!
>         
>         On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 3:49 PM, tom <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
>         > Occupy St Cloud is ramping up.  Our group wants to
>         participate in
>         > livestream and global revolution.  Any techies that live in
>         or near St
>         > Cloud that understand how to do that, please contact me and
>         we'll meet
>         > on Thursday at 7PM in the library at St Cloud State
>         University.
>         > Thanks, Tom
>         >
>         > _______________________________________________
>         > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>         > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>         > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>         >
>         
>         
>         
>         -- 
>         Erik K. Mitchell
>         erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>         http://mitc0185.com/
>         _______________________________________________
>         TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>         tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>         http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 19:40:21 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 19:40:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <1320795997.7734.3.camel@taichi>
References: <CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320793775.4eb9b6af1a87f@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<1320795997.7734.3.camel@taichi>
Message-ID: <4EB9DA05.9080409@gmail.com>

On 11/8/2011 5:46 PM, tom cried from the depths of the abyss:

> I just thought there might be some linux techies that might want to help
> straighten out our local corrupt officials.  Hope I'm not wrong in
> thinking that.

Cash in an unmarked envelope usually works.

From tompoe at meltel.net  Tue Nov  8 19:49:49 2011
From: tompoe at meltel.net (tom)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 19:49:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <4EB9DA05.9080409@gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
	<1320793775.4eb9b6af1a87f@g3.sbn-services.com>
	<1320795997.7734.3.camel@taichi>  <4EB9DA05.9080409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1320803389.8043.0.camel@taichi>

LOL

That's exactly what the mayor said when he signed the contract.
Tom

On Tue, 2011-11-08 at 19:40 -0600, Mr. B-o-B wrote: 
> On 11/8/2011 5:46 PM, tom cried from the depths of the abyss:
> 
> > I just thought there might be some linux techies that might want to help
> > straighten out our local corrupt officials.  Hope I'm not wrong in
> > thinking that.
> 
> Cash in an unmarked envelope usually works.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 



From nesius at gmail.com  Tue Nov  8 20:10:58 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 20:10:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111081622120.11829@Dragon>
References: <1320788997.7295.2.camel@taichi>
	<CANNReEH9r4BBspbC7O31ogRZ4qmvcPKLcbqXqq=V0aYBJsTsvw@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111108163239.1lvrik56fhi0csgg@mail.dalan.us>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111081622120.11829@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE_aBdGe-ARBNaB+won6Z5DrRHYB+2q8D8AtUCmjdQyeiQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 4:22 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Nov 2011, David Alanis wrote:
>
>  I'm glad to hear that the focus of this movement is finally been
>>> brought to the real enemy: ST. CLOUD!!!
>>>
>>
>> HAHAHAH! Not!
>>
>
> Hey, those are the people who keep voting Michelle Bachmann into office.
> If that doesn't scare you, you're not paying enough attention.
>
> /overt politics
>

Please don't remind me whose district I live in.    It causes me sorrow.

-Rob
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From egalstad at nagios.com  Tue Nov  8 20:34:17 2011
From: egalstad at nagios.com (Ethan Galstad)
Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 20:34:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tech help needed livestream
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3521.1320804668.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.3521.1320804668.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <4EB9E6A9.8050006@nagios.com>

Damn those "saintly" cloud bastards!  I've been looking for someone to 
blame for all the clouds and crappy weather we have here 6 months out of 
the year.  Glad to see people are finally wising up to who the real foes 
are and taking the battle where it belongs.

These greedy "cloud" guys steal all the sun for themselves and don't 
share with the "little guys" who are just trying to make it through 
winter and stay sane.  Make those 1%'ers pay!  Get some sun back here to 
the rest of us 99%'ers!!!!

[snip]
 >
 > I'm glad to hear that the focus of this movement is finally been
 > brought to the real enemy: ST. CLOUD!!!
 >
[/snip]


Ethan Galstad

From globerunners.it.dept at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 12:10:03 2011
From: globerunners.it.dept at gmail.com (Bob De Mars)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:10:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging civil
	wars
Message-ID: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>

Can the Linux Jedi hold things together?

 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/ubuntu_on_trial/

 



From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Wed Nov  9 13:15:01 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:15:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111109131501.650129a1cbe60f00703770a9@jasonhsu.com>

The big test for the new Ubuntu is the next LTS release.

If the next LTS release can win over the current LTS users, Ubuntu will remain on top.  However, Canonical has to pull off quite a miracle given that LTS users are more resistant to change than people using the other Ubuntu releases.  Thus, I think LTS users are even less likely to warm up to the new Ubuntu.

The full impact of Unity won't be known until support for the current LTS release ends in 2013.  At that point, LTS users will have to switch to the new Ubuntu or switch to something else.  I think they will overwhelmingly pick the latter option, and Linux Mint usage will really jump.  Linux Mint is most like the old Ubuntu - user-friendly and also part of the Debian side of the distroverse.

One indicator to look at is how many other distros provide Unity.  If Unity is successful, you'll see other distros offering it.  So far, all other distros have been distancing themselves from Unity.

Another indicator is to look at is the number of Ubuntu derivatives.  If you see Ubuntu derivatives folding or switching to a different base, then you'll know that the new Ubuntu is a flop.

I haven't tried Unity, because I couldn't get it working in VirtualBox or on my laptop, so I've only seen the GNOME backup system and Xfce (in Xubuntu).  The bloatware of Ubuntu is enough to scare me off.  Linux Mint Debian Edition with GNOME feels faster with only 512 MB of RAM than X/Ubuntu feels with 2 GB of RAM.  Ubuntu has finally caught up with Windows when it comes to hardware requirements.

If you like the old Ubuntu and hate the new Ubuntu, Linux Mint is the distro for you.  I consider Mint to the THE premier distro for first-time Linux users.  It includes many essential drivers and codecs, it's user-friendly, and it has a HUGE repository.

I've been using the new Linux Mint Debian Edition, and it has won me over so thoroughly that I'm using it as the basis for future editions of Swift Linux.  LMDE offers the user-friendly look and feel of the traditional Ubuntu-based editions without the Ubuntu overhead.

I think we're seeing a changing of the guard - the Ubuntu Era is giving way to the Mint Era.

The controversy over Ubuntu is the answer to complaints that there are too many distros.  If Ubuntu were the only distro, Linux would be in trouble.  Thanks to the diversity of the distroverse, Ubuntu users have other options, like Mint, Fedora, PCLinuxOS, and others.

On Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:10:03 -0600
"Bob De Mars" <globerunners.it.dept at gmail.com> wrote:

> Can the Linux Jedi hold things together?
> 
>  
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/08/ubuntu_on_trial/
> 

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Wed Nov  9 13:44:27 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 13:44:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111109134427.1008b4a57f52d7fdf50d4d78@jasonhsu.com>

It seems to me that Windows 8 is following the Ubuntu playbook by aiming for both the desktop and mobile markets.  I think the Unity controversy is a sneak preview of the reception of Windows 8.

I think Windows 8 will be a flop and possibly an even bigger fiasco than Vista was.  The average Windows user is even more resistant to change than the average Linux user is.  Windows 8 will be very different from 7 and Vista and be an even bigger shock for people still using XP.  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I think Windows 8 will be Microsoft's Chevy Citation.

The big test for Microsoft will come in 2014 as Windows XP support ends.  If Microsoft can't hold onto the XP users, it will lose market share.  If Microsoft goes down, its decline will be much faster than that of General Motors.  Unlike Microsoft, General Motors didn't have the everybody-else-uses-it network effect. 

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 14:10:27 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:10:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <20111109134427.1008b4a57f52d7fdf50d4d78@jasonhsu.com>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
	<20111109134427.1008b4a57f52d7fdf50d4d78@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE9VABPheznBNdy_eY7kyGq8cpD-yDE5iJu-pY-F1RKvjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> It seems to me that Windows 8 is following the Ubuntu playbook by aiming
> for both the desktop and mobile markets.  I think the Unity controversy is
> a sneak preview of the reception of Windows 8.
>
> I think Windows 8 will be a flop and possibly an even bigger fiasco than
> Vista was.
>

I think it really depends on the implementation.  If done right, bringing
mobile-paradigms to the desktop could result in, for the average user,
better models that fit human cognition better.  In "The Humane Interface",
Jef Raskin raves about the Canon Cat from a usability perspective.  I've
been wondering if the mobile, app-centric approach might facillitate some
of the benefits of what the Canon Cat had to offer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Cat  For this reason I'll probably
eventually give Unity a try.  I'm curious about Gnome 3 now, having read
the original article you linked.

-Rob
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From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Nov  9 14:11:29 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:11:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <20111109131501.650129a1cbe60f00703770a9@jasonhsu.com>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
	<20111109131501.650129a1cbe60f00703770a9@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE8FBoW_Fsf90D35s8JN=Do9BeqbzLVTPYpJO=VT4gnTsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 1:15 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> The big test for the new Ubuntu is the next LTS release.
>
> If the next LTS release can win over the current LTS users, Ubuntu will
> remain on top.  However, Canonical has to pull off quite a miracle given
> that LTS users are more resistant to change than people using the other
> Ubuntu releases.  Thus, I think LTS users are even less likely to warm up
> to the new Ubuntu.
>
>
I'm wondering how many of those LTS installs are Ubuntu Server, which
generally don't have desktop environments running over them?

-Rob
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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Wed Nov  9 14:10:07 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:10:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <20111109134427.1008b4a57f52d7fdf50d4d78@jasonhsu.com>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
	<20111109134427.1008b4a57f52d7fdf50d4d78@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9BTLoeviU-_HkOo8UB1y5JpwPP3NnuhsvLJk2N4y8C35g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> If Microsoft goes down
>

from what i read several years back already microsoft was well enough
invested in entertainment industry to lack any concern whatsoever whether
windows lives or dies.  while i do enjoy the notion of windows users being
rather like lemmings <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDqlZjpSJCc>,
nevertheless harping its demise strikes rather like henny penny,
notwithstanding the infamous chicken's gain in credence..
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From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 20:20:34 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:20:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <20111109134427.1008b4a57f52d7fdf50d4d78@jasonhsu.com>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
	<20111109134427.1008b4a57f52d7fdf50d4d78@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4EBC8672.2040703@gmail.com>

On 11/9/2011 1:44 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss:
> I think Windows 8 will be a flop and possibly an even bigger fiasco
> than Vista was.  The average Windows user is even more resistant to
> change than the average Linux user is.  Windows 8 will be very
> different from 7 and Vista and be an even bigger shock for people
> still using XP.  Windows Vista was Microsoft's Chevy Vega.  I think
> Windows 8 will be Microsoft's Chevy Citation.
>

I wouldn't be so sure.  Tablets are becoming more popular for both biz & 
personal use.  Smartphones are in almost every pocket already.  Then 
there is the desktop.  Put it all together, and that is a pretty cool 
situation.

> The big test for Microsoft will come in 2014 as Windows XP support
> ends.  If Microsoft can't hold onto the XP users, it will lose market
> share.  If Microsoft goes down, its decline will be much faster than
> that of General Motors.  Unlike Microsoft, General Motors didn't have
> the everybody-else-uses-it network effect.
>

Again, I wouldn't be so sure about this either.  Win 7 is pretty solid, 
and XP users have been moving over for 2 years now.  The bulk of the 
herd will be migrated to Win 7 before you know it.  If Win 8 is a flop 
(like vista - which really wasn't that bad at the end of the day), then 
much like XP the win 7 users will ride it out until they get it right 
with the next release (win 9?).

Desktop market share as of Oct 2011,
M$ has 91.86%.
Mac has 6.94%.
Linux 1.19%

source: 
http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8&qpcustomd=0

Don't get me wrong I love Linux, but you have to give MS a little 
credit.  I don't think M$'s desktop products will be hitting the 
toilette anytime soon.

I would be curious to see how the market share looks on the server side. 
  To be honest my main focus with Linux since I first started using it 
in the 2nd half of the 90's to preset has always been on the server 
side.  I think this is, and always has been Linux's strength.

From matthew at lechleider.com  Thu Nov 10 20:32:30 2011
From: matthew at lechleider.com (Matthew Lechleider)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 20:32:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] 30 days until DrupalCamp Chicago 2011!
Message-ID: <4EBC893E.7060808@lechleider.com>

Saturday December 10th is less than 30 days away! If your interesting in 
attending, now is the time to register. Plus time is running out to 
submit a presentation.

Register @ http://drupalcampchicago.org/user/register

Cost - $40

Event is at the UBS Tower Conference Center on second floor of One N 
Wacker Drive. Public transportation is recommend for this event. Venue 
is very close to Ogilvie and Unions Stations in downtown Chicago.
-Map http://g.co/maps/qgc5f
-Venue/Directions https://drupalcampchicago.org/about/directions

Lunch in main auditorium will have entertainment with prizes, gifts, and 
over $2500 in Drupal book give aways. If interested in winning, we 
suggest sharpening your Drupal trivia skills ;)

Presentation submissions have been more popular than ever receiving 20+ 
proposals in our first week. Submission deadline is November 19th. After 
purchasing a ticket make sure to vote for your favorite sessions. 
Various topics have been proposed such as CTools, PHP, accessibility, 
mobile, BEAN, case studies, web hosting, and much more. If interested in 
a preview of schedule, check out all proposals @ 
https://drupalcampchicago.org/program/sessions

Along with these sessions, there is a great opportunity for like-minded 
individuals to continue the discussion in our birds of a feather (BoF) 
reserved rooms.

Did you hear about the pre-camp training Duo Consulting is offering the 
day before camp with Doug Vann? Details @ 
https://drupalcampchicago.org/pre-camp-training

Are you able to volunteer at camp? We need technical and non-technical 
volunteers to help everything run smoothly. Everything from registration 
desk to "AV club nerds" are needed. If you have video gear available to 
help with presentation recording, let us know! If your available, please 
contact us @ https://drupalcampchicago.org/volunteer

Sponsorships are still available to make this event happen. If you can 
provide support, let us know @ https://drupalcampchicago.org/sponsorship

Contact Us @ https://drupalcampchicago.org/contact-us


- Matthew at Lechleider.com
Organizer @Chicago Drupal Meet Up Group
(773) 715-7133

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 21:51:34 2011
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:51:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Does this exist?
Message-ID: <CABWFOjsOoAknBU44es95v9rvJACmPxnW2moo=Jci-bF1mP3waw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not up on all of the plugins so maybe this already exists.
Often I have an idea and go find a tab that I can use to
research the idea.  After doing that for a few minutes or more
I can't remember what I was doing before or which tab I was
in.  This is kind of like the back button but for tabs.  Tia

My representative is Betty McCollum.  Oy vey.

-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
http://webEbenezer.net
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From jpschewe at mtu.net  Thu Nov 10 22:04:56 2011
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 22:04:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Trouble with NAT and Ubuntu 11.10
Message-ID: <CALpcnoxPOqwiM25TiX-WfRjn=4yxNEN=YEvaRUXsowqsysJ2mA@mail.gmail.com>

I upgraded to Ubuntu 11.10 on my router last week and my Verizon
network extender stopped working. I could see it's traffic on both
sides of my router, but something was wrong with the connection such
that it wouldn't finish linking up with Verizon. I spent much time on
the phone with them and they couldn't figure it out. I put a Tenda
router in between my cable modem and my Ubuntu router and plugged the
network extender into that and everything works. Anyone have ideas
about what changed between natty and 11.10 that would cause this?

I tried taking my firewall down to just the basic NAT firewall needed
and it still didn't help.

Jon

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Nov 10 23:00:43 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:00:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Does this exist?
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsOoAknBU44es95v9rvJACmPxnW2moo=Jci-bF1mP3waw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsOoAknBU44es95v9rvJACmPxnW2moo=Jci-bF1mP3waw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111102238210.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 10 Nov 2011, Brian Wood wrote:

> I'm not up on all of the plugins so maybe this already exists. Often I 
> have an idea and go find a tab that I can use to research the idea. 
> After doing that for a few minutes or more I can't remember what I was 
> doing before or which tab I was in.  This is kind of like the back 
> button but for tabs.  Tia

Good question.  I guess this is what you want (assuming you are using 
Firefox):

http://gorgias.de/mfe/  <- look for "FLST"
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/flst/
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/focus-last-tab/

I don't know which is best, but they all claim to do what you want. 
Here's more info on the keyboard shortcut tricks built into Firefox:

http://support.mozilla.com/en-US/kb/Keyboard%20shortcuts#w_windows-tabs

Mike

From rick at real-time.com  Thu Nov 10 23:02:22 2011
From: rick at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 23:02:22 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Trouble with NAT and Ubuntu 11.10
In-Reply-To: <CALpcnoxPOqwiM25TiX-WfRjn=4yxNEN=YEvaRUXsowqsysJ2mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALpcnoxPOqwiM25TiX-WfRjn=4yxNEN=YEvaRUXsowqsysJ2mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EBCAC5E.1000907@real-time.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/10/11 10:04 PM, Jon Schewe wrote:
> I upgraded to Ubuntu 11.10 on my router last week and my Verizon 
> network extender stopped working. I could see it's traffic on both 
> sides of my router, but something was wrong with the connection
> such that it wouldn't finish linking up with Verizon.

I don't have an explanation as to why this has now happened - but I
have encountered something similar myself. As a long shot, try this
command:

sudo dhclient eth0

See if that restore networking services.




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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 02:30:22 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 02:30:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <20111109131501.650129a1cbe60f00703770a9@jasonhsu.com>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
	<20111109131501.650129a1cbe60f00703770a9@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111110228560.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 9 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> The bloatware of Ubuntu is enough to scare me off.  Linux Mint Debian 
> Edition with GNOME feels faster with only 512 MB of RAM than X/Ubuntu 
> feels with 2 GB of RAM.  Ubuntu has finally caught up with Windows when 
> it comes to hardware requirements.


Have you tried Lubuntu?  It's Light Ubuntu, I guess.  It was mentioned in 
the article.  I haven't tried it and know nothing that wasn't in the 
article.

Mike

From jpschewe at mtu.net  Fri Nov 11 06:56:57 2011
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 06:56:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Trouble with NAT and Ubuntu 11.10
In-Reply-To: <4EBCAC5E.1000907@real-time.com>
References: <CALpcnoxPOqwiM25TiX-WfRjn=4yxNEN=YEvaRUXsowqsysJ2mA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EBCAC5E.1000907@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <CALpcnoxGq10Nhn_zcSUm8J-B2F6CYanLYmiPZ1buRmhPYoSCfw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 11:02 PM, Rick Tanner <rick at real-time.com> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 11/10/11 10:04 PM, Jon Schewe wrote:
>> I upgraded to Ubuntu 11.10 on my router last week and my Verizon
>> network extender stopped working. I could see it's traffic on both
>> sides of my router, but something was wrong with the connection
>> such that it wouldn't finish linking up with Verizon.
>
> I don't have an explanation as to why this has now happened - but I
> have encountered something similar myself. As a long shot, try this
> command:
>
> sudo dhclient eth0
>
> See if that restore networking services.
>
Networking works for everything, except my network extender. I
rebooted multiple times, so this isn't something that would help.

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Fri Nov 11 07:48:09 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:48:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Good Article: Ubuntu republic riven by damaging
 civil wars
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111110228560.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <000001cc9f0a$cf108f00$6d31ad00$@gmail.com>
	<20111109131501.650129a1cbe60f00703770a9@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111110228560.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9ChRs0FDoTf72tbRFyZXk+jpmrPUF8PDtnEDFKeVySpOg@mail.gmail.com>

Lubuntu is decent.  LXDE is far "lighter" than XFCE, and such things do
matter eg if you are running multiple VMs.   tho i use TWM mostly, beats
both by miles.  but the UI choice pales vs browsing.  chrome is perhaps
slightly lighter than firefox, but again that pales vs how and what you
browse.  things like multiple tabs or the gmail web interface are what burn
your ram.
On Nov 11, 2011 2:30 AM, "Mike Miller" <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:
>
>  The bloatware of Ubuntu is enough to scare me off.  Linux Mint Debian
>> Edition with GNOME feels faster with only 512 MB of RAM than X/Ubuntu feels
>> with 2 GB of RAM.  Ubuntu has finally caught up with Windows when it comes
>> to hardware requirements.
>>
>
>
> Have you tried Lubuntu?  It's Light Ubuntu, I guess.  It was mentioned in
> the article.  I haven't tried it and know nothing that wasn't in the
> article.
>
> Mike
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>
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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Fri Nov 11 13:30:57 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:30:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
Message-ID: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>

I finally got Unity working - I installed Ubuntu 11.10 in VirtualBox.  This must be the 2D mode that people have mentioned, and I guess my computer doesn't have 3D graphics acceleration.

When I first looked at Ubuntu 11.10, I wondered what the big deal was.  It looked like there was a menu bar on the left side of the screen instead of the bottom.  Then I tried doing stuff.  Of course, the pretty purple/pink background is about the only thing in common between the new Ubunu UI and the old one.

The left menu bar has a now-you-see-it-now-you-don't quality that would make multitasking tricky.  Then there are the applications (like Firefox) with the now-you-see-it-now-you-don't menu bar at the top of the window.  The icon with the Ubuntu logo leads to the big menu for various functions.  (I guess this is the mobile interface everyone talks about.)

Gone is the full menu common to the Linux Mint, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux, Damn Small Linux, Windows XP, Windows 98, Windows 95, and even the old Ubuntu.  You can't even right-click on the desktop to see the full menu showing most or all of the installed programs.

To add insult to injury, Ubuntu 11.04 and 11.10 feel slow with 2 GB of RAM.  This is the Hummer of Linux distros.  The old Ubuntu flew with 2 GB of RAM and was roughly as heavy as Windows XP.  In contrast, Linux Mint Debian Edition flies with only 512 MB of RAM.

Ubuntu has finally done what would have been inconceivable just a few years ago - it caught up to Windows in the bloatware department.  I don't have significant experience with Windows Vista or 7, but I'm sure the new Ubuntu has to be as heavy as Windows 7 and possibly as heavy as Windows Vista.

Now that I've tried out Unity, I'm qualified to say that Ubuntu has jumped the shark.  User unfriendly + extremely bloated = EPIC FAIL.  While I'm sure the new Ubuntu can be tweaked, people who have the time and know-how to do this would be better off tweaking a bare-bones Debian installation or something like Arch Linux, Gentoo Linux, or Slackware.  At least these alternatives would provide a fast and lightweight setup.

Canonical needs to be wildly successful in the mobile market to compensate for the loss of desktop users.  I think many more Ubuntu users will defect to Linux Mint and other distros when support for the current LTS version ends in 2013.  I don't understand why the same OS needs to work for desktops and mobile devices.  Canonical could have continued designing Ubuntu for the desktop and rolled out a separate mobile OS.  It could have even borrowed elements of the desktop to make the mobile OS to be more expedient.

I think the Ubuntu controversy is a sneak preview of what's ahead for Windows 8.  The average Windows user is even more resistant to change than the average Linux user.  I think Windows 8 will be a flop and possibly damage Microsoft even more than Vista did.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From mark.katerberg at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 13:48:45 2011
From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:48:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>

Jason,

Do you have a blog? Have you ever thought of starting one? recently your
posts seem more in line with that than with a mailing list.
On Nov 11, 2011 1:31 PM, "Jason Hsu" <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I finally got Unity working - I installed Ubuntu 11.10 in VirtualBox.
>  This must be the 2D mode that people have mentioned, and I guess my
> computer doesn't have 3D graphics acceleration.
>
> When I first looked at Ubuntu 11.10, I wondered what the big deal was.  It
> looked like there was a menu bar on the left side of the screen instead of
> the bottom.  Then I tried doing stuff.  Of course, the pretty purple/pink
> background is about the only thing in common between the new Ubunu UI and
> the old one.
>
> The left menu bar has a now-you-see-it-now-you-don't quality that would
> make multitasking tricky.  Then there are the applications (like Firefox)
> with the now-you-see-it-now-you-don't menu bar at the top of the window.
>  The icon with the Ubuntu logo leads to the big menu for various functions.
>  (I guess this is the mobile interface everyone talks about.)
>
> Gone is the full menu common to the Linux Mint, antiX Linux, Puppy Linux,
> Damn Small Linux, Windows XP, Windows 98, Windows 95, and even the old
> Ubuntu.  You can't even right-click on the desktop to see the full menu
> showing most or all of the installed programs.
>
> To add insult to injury, Ubuntu 11.04 and 11.10 feel slow with 2 GB of
> RAM.  This is the Hummer of Linux distros.  The old Ubuntu flew with 2 GB
> of RAM and was roughly as heavy as Windows XP.  In contrast, Linux Mint
> Debian Edition flies with only 512 MB of RAM.
>
> Ubuntu has finally done what would have been inconceivable just a few
> years ago - it caught up to Windows in the bloatware department.  I don't
> have significant experience with Windows Vista or 7, but I'm sure the new
> Ubuntu has to be as heavy as Windows 7 and possibly as heavy as Windows
> Vista.
>
> Now that I've tried out Unity, I'm qualified to say that Ubuntu has jumped
> the shark.  User unfriendly + extremely bloated = EPIC FAIL.  While I'm
> sure the new Ubuntu can be tweaked, people who have the time and know-how
> to do this would be better off tweaking a bare-bones Debian installation or
> something like Arch Linux, Gentoo Linux, or Slackware.  At least these
> alternatives would provide a fast and lightweight setup.
>
> Canonical needs to be wildly successful in the mobile market to compensate
> for the loss of desktop users.  I think many more Ubuntu users will defect
> to Linux Mint and other distros when support for the current LTS version
> ends in 2013.  I don't understand why the same OS needs to work for
> desktops and mobile devices.  Canonical could have continued designing
> Ubuntu for the desktop and rolled out a separate mobile OS.  It could have
> even borrowed elements of the desktop to make the mobile OS to be more
> expedient.
>
> I think the Ubuntu controversy is a sneak preview of what's ahead for
> Windows 8.  The average Windows user is even more resistant to change than
> the average Linux user.  I think Windows 8 will be a flop and possibly
> damage Microsoft even more than Vista did.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From erikerik at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 15:29:29 2011
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:29:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Mark Katerberg
<mark.katerberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you have a blog? Have you ever thought of starting one? recently your
> posts seem more in line with that than with a mailing list.

+1

Jason, you have some good insights and clearly a large dose of passion
for desktop linux. That said, this is a discussion mailing list, not a
place to post general thinky/feely type stuff.

I think you could gain a significant following if you posted this type
of analysis and commentary on a blog versus a mailing list, and you'd
annoy fewer people as well. :) win/win

Beer,
Erik

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 15:38:26 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:38:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEH85o7rkig7KZAXBo5BMEq=PcGit2iHidAUKnBtxveuOQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Beer,
> Erik


Where!? Can I have some?


-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 16:20:10 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:20:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111612200.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011, Erik Anderson wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Mark Katerberg <mark.katerberg at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Do you have a blog? Have you ever thought of starting one? recently 
>> your posts seem more in line with that than with a mailing list.
>
> +1
>
> Jason, you have some good insights and clearly a large dose of passion 
> for desktop linux. That said, this is a discussion mailing list, not a 
> place to post general thinky/feely type stuff.
>
> I think you could gain a significant following if you posted this type 
> of analysis and commentary on a blog versus a mailing list, and you'd 
> annoy fewer people as well. :) win/win

-1

What's annoying about it?  Should I be more annoyed by a summary of an 
experience with some software that millions of people (including me and 
most of you) will be using -- which is what he just sent -- or with a 
question about why some guy's wireless router isn't working?  Why pick on 
what Jason is writing?  To me it looked like a nice start to a 
*discussion* about Unity.

I do agree that he should have a blog, but I wouldn't want him to stop 
posting here.  He could post links to his blog entries instead of posting 
the entries, but I have no reason to object either way.  I think his 
messages have evoked quite a few worthwhile discussions.

Mike

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Nov 11 16:40:49 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:40:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321051249.11251.42.camel@sysadmin3a>


On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 13:48 -0600, Mark Katerberg wrote:
> Jason,
> 
> Do you have a blog? Have you ever thought of starting one? recently
> your posts seem more in line with that than with a mailing list.
> 

While a blog might be very appropriate, I fail to see how his thoughts on Unity is out of place on a LUG list.
The future of Ubuntu (one the most prolific distros as a desktop today)
is hinged on the acceptance of the desktop experience. While a lot of
Jason's conjecture on comparing Windows bloat to Ubuntu bloat I disagree
with I feel this is indeed an appropriate forum to discuss such matters.

I think the new Gnome 3 sounds worse than Gnome 2. I run with a lot of
KDE apps from their desktop set but I don't prefer KDE as my desktop /
WM. I also tried Unity a while back on 11.04 and I did not like it. I
like Gnome 2 and will miss it when eventually every distro I am likely
to use will drop it. Not sure what I will do exactly yet for a desktop
environment as I also don't like the idea of running on an unsupported
OS indefinitely either. Maybe move to one of the lighter weight desktops
but I enjoy a lot of the features and bells/whistles that Jason likes to
call "bloat" especially on 8 gigs of RAM.
As much as I dislike Apple as a business I may re-consider getting a Mac
as I wont go back to Windows for the foreseeable future. I bet something
tolerable will crop up for me in the future.


From mark.katerberg at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 16:44:31 2011
From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:44:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <1321051249.11251.42.camel@sysadmin3a>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321051249.11251.42.camel@sysadmin3a>
Message-ID: <CAA6U0N1DjFdh9SqiZPooD5VrBTtkqOUtURx8X8_SvM=UNsKaew@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't mean to imply that Jason should not post here. It just seems like
the quantity of observational and conversational posts has jumped pretty
rapidly. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if he wants engagement and
a more selective audience, it might work better.

Didn't mean to offend,
On Nov 11, 2011 4:41 PM, "Justin Krejci" <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

>
> On Fri, 2011-11-11 at 13:48 -0600, Mark Katerberg wrote:
> > Jason,
> >
> > Do you have a blog? Have you ever thought of starting one? recently
> > your posts seem more in line with that than with a mailing list.
> >
>
> While a blog might be very appropriate, I fail to see how his thoughts on
> Unity is out of place on a LUG list.
> The future of Ubuntu (one the most prolific distros as a desktop today)
> is hinged on the acceptance of the desktop experience. While a lot of
> Jason's conjecture on comparing Windows bloat to Ubuntu bloat I disagree
> with I feel this is indeed an appropriate forum to discuss such matters.
>
> I think the new Gnome 3 sounds worse than Gnome 2. I run with a lot of
> KDE apps from their desktop set but I don't prefer KDE as my desktop /
> WM. I also tried Unity a while back on 11.04 and I did not like it. I
> like Gnome 2 and will miss it when eventually every distro I am likely
> to use will drop it. Not sure what I will do exactly yet for a desktop
> environment as I also don't like the idea of running on an unsupported
> OS indefinitely either. Maybe move to one of the lighter weight desktops
> but I enjoy a lot of the features and bells/whistles that Jason likes to
> call "bloat" especially on 8 gigs of RAM.
> As much as I dislike Apple as a business I may re-consider getting a Mac
> as I wont go back to Windows for the foreseeable future. I bet something
> tolerable will crop up for me in the future.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From nathan at paysonlinux.org  Fri Nov 11 16:54:08 2011
From: nathan at paysonlinux.org (Nathan England)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:54:08 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111612200.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111612200.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>


> 
> -1
> 
> What's annoying about it?  Should I be more annoyed by a summary of an
> experience with some software that millions of people (including me and
> most of you) will be using -- which is what he just sent -- or with a
> question about why some guy's wireless router isn't working?  Why pick on
> what Jason is writing?  To me it looked like a nice start to a
> *discussion* about Unity.
> 
> I do agree that he should have a blog, but I wouldn't want him to stop
> posting here.  He could post links to his blog entries instead of posting
> the entries, but I have no reason to object either way.  I think his
> messages have evoked quite a few worthwhile discussions.
> 
> Mike


Hello Hello,

+1 Agreed. 

<rant>
I just joined this list today and wanted to lurk a bit before posting and 
introducing myself. The first thread I found after joining immediately scared 
me that maybe this list is not an ideal place to visit. I liked the in-depth 
review he gave of his personal use and likes/dis-likes. I thought "wow, this 
is a real linux community, unlike the LUG I just left!" 

The former LUG I was a member of for the last ten years or so has grown old 
and uncomfortable because so many people are not willing to hear other 
people's opinions on the list and have, just as this one, suggested they start 
a blog somewhere. 

I love the ability to post questions, get answers and help others answer 
questions. I like sharing stories about our linux experiences. It builds a 
real sense of "community" where we can discuss linux and OSS software. 

The day someone submits an email to a LUG and has to second-guess themselves 
before clicking "send" for fear it is opinionated or not ideal for the list is 
a sad sad day for that local community. Of course, proper etiquette is nice as 
well. If you want to say something that may be slightly off-topic then prefix 
your subject line with 

OT: My Off-topic subject

but since when is something that is related to linux "off topic" for a linux 
discussion list? The previous LUG I was part of was so sensitive to every 
posting resulting in continual flame wars about ettiquete and was is or is not 
"off-topic". Yet Windows questions were welcomed and answered by all and 
quickly! Last time I checked, I only used linux and don't have a windows pc 
anywhere near me.
</rant>

Just my .02 but I am looking for a linux community that enjoys discussing all 
things linux and open source, whether it be "GNU" or not.

Nathan

From nathan at paysonlinux.org  Fri Nov 11 17:11:34 2011
From: nathan at paysonlinux.org (Nathan England)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:11:34 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction
Message-ID: <17617571.a5MTxvOojj@thinkpad.nmecs.com>


Hello Hello,

I have recently found your LUG online while searching for a new LUG to 
participate in. My local LUG has lost any resemblance to a LUG and I have 
decided to look elsewhere. My interest in this particular LUG is based in the 
fact that, though I personally live in .az.us I have a lot of family in the 
Twin Cities and my parents live in Forest Lakes.

I am a 32 year old PHP developer and LAMP administrator. I have been using 
Linux since I got my first pc. My parents thought it good for me to learn how 
to use a computer and bought me a Compaq Presario with Windows 3.1 and DOS 5 
or 6 for my birthday. My elementary school used Apple's, so it became 
immediately clear to me that there must be a variety of operating systems 
available for a computer. So I hopped on yahoo and began looking through the 
categories and found computers / operating systems and something new that had 
just come about a couple months before called slackware! Not knowing what I 
was doing, I downloaded a bunch of diskette images and rawrite, wrote all the 
images to I believe 11 or 14 diskettes and never looked back...

Okay, not quite so easy. I think I made it through about half the disks, maybe 
the a package and then I hit a bad diskette. So I had to reload windows from 
my Presario recovery cds and download the images again and write them to some 
new floppies. I don't think I slept at all that night, 14.4 modems were 
awesome!!!

Since then things have changed a lot, thankfully! I have spent my years 
tinkering around with Ubuntu, Fedora and *SUSE* in all its incarnations, but 
used Slackware for most of those years. Eventually I switched to archlinux 
about 6 years ago, but as of the last few years I have been managing my own 
distro using my own package system. I prefer stability of most of the system 
yet I want bleeding edge on some of it, such as kdevelop. But I don't like 
having to upgrade a ton of stuff, just because a new version was released, 
only so I can keep current with kdevelop and a few other apps.

I've never been much of a GNOME person. The early days had such horrific 
memory problems that it put a sour taste in my mouth that even today I cannot 
shake. GNOME 2 is great, I despise GNOME 3 and Unity, but I am very happy with 
KDE 4.7.3.

I look forward to lots of questions and answers on this group, and many 
interesting discussions. I am searching for a real "community" to be a part of 
that is actually Linux oriented.

Nathan

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 17:32:27 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:32:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111612200.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111727260.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 11 Nov 2011, Nathan England wrote:

> I just joined this list today and wanted to lurk a bit before posting 
> and introducing myself. The first thread I found after joining 
> immediately scared me that maybe this list is not an ideal place to 
> visit. I liked the in-depth review he gave of his personal use and 
> likes/dis-likes. I thought "wow, this is a real linux community, unlike 
> the LUG I just left!"
>
> The former LUG I was a member of for the last ten years or so has grown 
> old and uncomfortable because so many people are not willing to hear 
> other people's opinions on the list and have, just as this one, 
> suggested they start a blog somewhere.


I think you'll find this is a great list for you.  I've been on another 
LUG in Missouri for about 13 years (I lived there for awhile in the '90s) 
and I like that list, too, but the expertise here is definitely noticably 
better.  There are arguments now and then, but we get over it.  I don't 
think it would be a genuine, productive LUG list if there were no battles 
over things like license preferences, emacs v vi/vim, Unity v Gnome 3, 
etc.  I have learned tons here.

Welcome!

Mike

From jolexa at jolexa.net  Fri Nov 11 19:17:10 2011
From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:17:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111612200.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
Message-ID: <CAMxqorWwLPWhrYSKafX044hQbTYdL4vJ08xpNJLY78GdPwtKvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Nathan England <nathan at paysonlinux.org> wrote:

> "off-topic". Yet Windows questions were welcomed and answered by all and

Windows discussion is not allowed. Welcome btw. :-)
-Jeremy

From brockn at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 20:36:55 2011
From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:36:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <17617571.a5MTxvOojj@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
References: <17617571.a5MTxvOojj@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
Message-ID: <CAHCAor6d5hW-rN3WtHKBJHS6z1+sNC7YPMWhHXj3Fm+50_yeHQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi,

Welcome!! I hope you find TC HUG a welcoming home!

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Nathan England <nathan at paysonlinux.org> wrote:
>
> Hello Hello,
>
> I have recently found your LUG online while searching for a new LUG to
> participate in. My local LUG has lost any resemblance to a LUG and I have
> decided to look elsewhere. My interest in this particular LUG is based in the
> fact that, though I personally live in .az.us I have a lot of family in the
> Twin Cities and my parents live in Forest Lakes.

Curious, what have they done? Are they having windows installfests? ;)

>
> I am a 32 year old PHP developer and LAMP administrator. I have been using
> Linux since I got my first pc. My parents thought it good for me to learn how
> to use a computer and bought me a Compaq Presario with Windows 3.1 and DOS 5
> or 6 for my birthday. My elementary school used Apple's, so it became
> immediately clear to me that there must be a variety of operating systems
> available for a computer. So I hopped on yahoo and began looking through the
> categories and found computers / operating systems and something new that had
> just come about a couple months before called slackware! Not knowing what I
> was doing, I downloaded a bunch of diskette images and rawrite, wrote all the
> images to I believe 11 or 14 diskettes and never looked back...
>
> Okay, not quite so easy. I think I made it through about half the disks, maybe
> the a package and then I hit a bad diskette. So I had to reload windows from
> my Presario recovery cds and download the images again and write them to some
> new floppies. I don't think I slept at all that night, 14.4 modems were
> awesome!!!
>
> Since then things have changed a lot, thankfully! I have spent my years
> tinkering around with Ubuntu, Fedora and *SUSE* in all its incarnations, but
> used Slackware for most of those years. Eventually I switched to archlinux
> about 6 years ago, but as of the last few years I have been managing my own
> distro using my own package system. I prefer stability of most of the system
> yet I want bleeding edge on some of it, such as kdevelop. But I don't like
> having to upgrade a ton of stuff, just because a new version was released,
> only so I can keep current with kdevelop and a few other apps.
>
> I've never been much of a GNOME person. The early days had such horrific
> memory problems that it put a sour taste in my mouth that even today I cannot
> shake. GNOME 2 is great, I despise GNOME 3 and Unity, but I am very happy with
> KDE 4.7.3.
>
> I look forward to lots of questions and answers on this group, and many
> interesting discussions. I am searching for a real "community" to be a part of
> that is actually Linux oriented.
>
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From j at packetgod.com  Fri Nov 11 20:41:43 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:41:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <CAMxqorWwLPWhrYSKafX044hQbTYdL4vJ08xpNJLY78GdPwtKvg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111612200.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
	<CAMxqorWwLPWhrYSKafX044hQbTYdL4vJ08xpNJLY78GdPwtKvg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADr-735-DYCHe=hXCrLxRt_xVAU-Vc=cQkdYp1X4H2tU4ZxD=w@mail.gmail.com>

So to start with I agree with the original poster's view on bloat of
Ubuntu and the suck of Unity (although useful on my touchpad).

I think the length and subject are perfect for a mailing list.  We
have had much longer flame war messages in the past (occupy what?).  I
think what could have been said was that it was such a good piece of
writing that it could go up on a blog.  I see this mailing list as a
good place to post things Linux related that someone was thinking
about posting to a blog so they could get some feedback, good, bad, or
flamealicious.

Thanks for your contribution!

On 11/11/11, Jeremy Olexa <jolexa at jolexa.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Nathan England <nathan at paysonlinux.org>
> wrote:
>
>> "off-topic". Yet Windows questions were welcomed and answered by all and
>
> Windows discussion is not allowed. Welcome btw. :-)
> -Jeremy
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 21:01:42 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:01:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <1321051249.11251.42.camel@sysadmin3a>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAA6U0N0RMWy=8=mkxzLWyW_RUtz8dBCAi_gzoQENxTvtn7L7+A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321051249.11251.42.camel@sysadmin3a>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE-sYp72WNE5R-sVW54RiN2=be1Uo7pKSxUFAM+L-rM9Lg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

>
>
> I think the new Gnome 3 sounds worse than Gnome 2. .... I
> like Gnome 2 and will miss it when eventually every distro I am likely
> to use will drop it.
>

I recently read Linux MINT is reproducing the Gnome 2 look inside Gnome 3.


-Rob
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From nesius at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 21:18:29 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 21:18:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
References: <20111111133057.7674df6a90a7b9a48d08099d@jasonhsu.com>
	<CADdM08qgFNu2k20r2g4p-z_08W_P5Q41SywnoicH6imyh1wRgQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111111612200.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<1972310.OpIV4sCiHf@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE9TEeBjcm9o6EARz-emgjdVsexk03M3LxkwcWub28AqwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 4:54 PM, Nathan England <nathan at paysonlinux.org>wrote:

> > Mike Miller
> >
> > I do agree that he should have a blog, but I wouldn't want him to stop
> > posting here.  He could post links to his blog entries instead of posting
> > the entries, but I have no reason to object either way.  I think his
> > messages have evoked quite a few worthwhile discussions.
> >
>

I think the idea of a blog for Jason was a great one - I would hope Jason
would still share his thoughts and posts here too though.  And I'll add
that I think it's a compliment to Jason that he's writing about these
topics the way he is.   He's on his way to becoming a thought leader in
Linux Distros. As I wrote that - I was reminded of this humorous video
about being a thought leader:
http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7897173/thought-leadership .


>
> Just my .02 but I am looking for a linux community that enjoys discussing
> all
> things linux and open source, whether it be "GNU" or not.


Welcome aboard, Nathan!  Thanks for jumping and and joining the fun!

Your closing comment reminded me of the ruby-lang mailing list.  I
subscribe to that list back when I was building out ruby interpreters for
my previous employer.  Usually once I've sorted out any sticky build issues
I drop off of the list, but I stayed subscribed to ruby-lang for a long
time simply because the people there were just so darned nice and pleasant
- they really had a nice community.

-Rob
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 09:20:55 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:20:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
Message-ID: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Everyone,
I believe we've had another existential crisis. Who are we? Why are we here?

While I can't answer those questions, I can propose another beer
meeting. Who's with me!?

This time around, I was thinking something in the Maple Grove area
would be good, to encourage a visit from our friends in St. Cloud. I
was also thinking it might be fun if there was more to do than drink
beer and break glasses. Perhaps skee ball?

So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:

http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing

Thoughts?

-Erik

-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From florin at iucha.net  Sat Nov 12 10:00:44 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:00:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111112160043.GM18686@styx.iucha.org>

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 09:20:55AM -0600, Erik Mitchell wrote:
> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
> 
> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
> 
> Thoughts?

Happy thoughts!

florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From blutgens at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 10:17:53 2011
From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:17:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANoiwe7MSDiayH21Niz8WJxrn14g_0k4NMh4xyqLYgth6MBiSg@mail.gmail.com>

I can't speak to the crisis thing, but I'd be up for another beer meet even
though I don't drink anymore =)


On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
> I believe we've had another existential crisis. Who are we? Why are we
> here?
>
> While I can't answer those questions, I can propose another beer
> meeting. Who's with me!?
>
> This time around, I was thinking something in the Maple Grove area
> would be good, to encourage a visit from our friends in St. Cloud. I
> was also thinking it might be fun if there was more to do than drink
> beer and break glasses. Perhaps skee ball?
>
> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>
>
> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Erik
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> http://mitc0185.com/
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Ben Lutgens
Linux / Unix System Administrator

Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
"I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
       -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
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From mark.katerberg at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 10:19:05 2011
From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:19:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANoiwe7MSDiayH21Niz8WJxrn14g_0k4NMh4xyqLYgth6MBiSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANoiwe7MSDiayH21Niz8WJxrn14g_0k4NMh4xyqLYgth6MBiSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA6U0N2xV6wBpzwVxQaDj_cyGm5gO5NYYD9a800JNKrmtrSDUw@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like a blast! It would be nice to meet everyone on the list that I
lurk ;)
On Nov 12, 2011 10:18 AM, "Ben" <blutgens at gmail.com> wrote:

> I can't speak to the crisis thing, but I'd be up for another beer meet
> even though I don't drink anymore =)
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>> I believe we've had another existential crisis. Who are we? Why are we
>> here?
>>
>> While I can't answer those questions, I can propose another beer
>> meeting. Who's with me!?
>>
>> This time around, I was thinking something in the Maple Grove area
>> would be good, to encourage a visit from our friends in St. Cloud. I
>> was also thinking it might be fun if there was more to do than drink
>> beer and break glasses. Perhaps skee ball?
>>
>> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
>> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>>
>>
>> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>> --
>> Erik K. Mitchell
>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>> http://mitc0185.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Ben Lutgens
> Linux / Unix System Administrator
>
> Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
> "I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
>        -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From nesius at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 10:34:41 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:34:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>
>
> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>
>
I'm up for that. :) I'm really mainly interested in chatting and getting to
know people so not sure I'll throw ski-balls unless we're playing to win a
tux plushy. :)

-Rob
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From j at packetgod.com  Sat Nov 12 11:38:22 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:38:22 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>

I'd like to but Wednesday's are bad nights for me.  Plus I'd prefer
old fashioned stuff like an Irish bar with darts :)

--j

On 11/12/11, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Erik Mitchell
> <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
>> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>>
>>
>> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>>
>>
> I'm up for that. :) I'm really mainly interested in chatting and getting to
> know people so not sure I'll throw ski-balls unless we're playing to win a
> tux plushy. :)
>
> -Rob
>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sat Nov 12 11:51:23 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:51:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>

Keegan's!

They have a happy hour from 430-630 with 1/2 price taps and apps and $3.50 rails and wines...

Just saying... Also I'm redoing their website so... when you go to keeganspub.com just think about how much BETTER their new website will be when I'm done with it.

--
Ryan

On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:38 AM, J Cruit wrote:

> I'd like to but Wednesday's are bad nights for me.  Plus I'd prefer
> old fashioned stuff like an Irish bar with darts :)
> 
> --j
> 
> On 11/12/11, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Erik Mitchell
>> <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
>>> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>>> 
>>> 
>> I'm up for that. :) I'm really mainly interested in chatting and getting to
>> know people so not sure I'll throw ski-balls unless we're playing to win a
>> tux plushy. :)
>> 
>> -Rob
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mark.katerberg at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 11:54:27 2011
From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:54:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAA6U0N1Zrjbn88Nj5OWgc70FWOObTsg+tf_suQ62fYxADweGCA@mail.gmail.com>

Oh! I'd like to go there!
On Nov 12, 2011 11:51 AM, "Ryan Coleman" <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> Keegan's!
>
> They have a happy hour from 430-630 with 1/2 price taps and apps and $3.50
> rails and wines...
>
> Just saying... Also I'm redoing their website so... when you go to
> keeganspub.com just think about how much BETTER their new website will be
> when I'm done with it.
>
> --
> Ryan
>
> On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:38 AM, J Cruit wrote:
>
> > I'd like to but Wednesday's are bad nights for me.  Plus I'd prefer
> > old fashioned stuff like an Irish bar with darts :)
> >
> > --j
> >
> > On 11/12/11, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Erik Mitchell
> >> <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
> >>> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
> >>>
> >>>
> >> I'm up for that. :) I'm really mainly interested in chatting and
> getting to
> >> know people so not sure I'll throw ski-balls unless we're playing to
> win a
> >> tux plushy. :)
> >>
> >> -Rob
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From samael.anon at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 12:19:13 2011
From: samael.anon at gmail.com (Samael)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:19:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <CAHCAor6d5hW-rN3WtHKBJHS6z1+sNC7YPMWhHXj3Fm+50_yeHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <17617571.a5MTxvOojj@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
	<CAHCAor6d5hW-rN3WtHKBJHS6z1+sNC7YPMWhHXj3Fm+50_yeHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKJ_APpqmOGfc=EPbdF3Y8VRuMVn_tWtTD4W0pLew6NHJ47E0A@mail.gmail.com>

this is a very helpful and active list

On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:36 PM, Brock Noland <brockn at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Welcome!! I hope you find TC HUG a welcoming home!
>
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 6:11 PM, Nathan England <nathan at paysonlinux.org>
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Hello,
> >
> > I have recently found your LUG online while searching for a new LUG to
> > participate in. My local LUG has lost any resemblance to a LUG and I have
> > decided to look elsewhere. My interest in this particular LUG is based
> in the
> > fact that, though I personally live in .az.us I have a lot of family in
> the
> > Twin Cities and my parents live in Forest Lakes.
>
> Curious, what have they done? Are they having windows installfests? ;)
>
> >
> > I am a 32 year old PHP developer and LAMP administrator. I have been
> using
> > Linux since I got my first pc. My parents thought it good for me to
> learn how
> > to use a computer and bought me a Compaq Presario with Windows 3.1 and
> DOS 5
> > or 6 for my birthday. My elementary school used Apple's, so it became
> > immediately clear to me that there must be a variety of operating systems
> > available for a computer. So I hopped on yahoo and began looking through
> the
> > categories and found computers / operating systems and something new
> that had
> > just come about a couple months before called slackware! Not knowing
> what I
> > was doing, I downloaded a bunch of diskette images and rawrite, wrote
> all the
> > images to I believe 11 or 14 diskettes and never looked back...
> >
> > Okay, not quite so easy. I think I made it through about half the disks,
> maybe
> > the a package and then I hit a bad diskette. So I had to reload windows
> from
> > my Presario recovery cds and download the images again and write them to
> some
> > new floppies. I don't think I slept at all that night, 14.4 modems were
> > awesome!!!
> >
> > Since then things have changed a lot, thankfully! I have spent my years
> > tinkering around with Ubuntu, Fedora and *SUSE* in all its incarnations,
> but
> > used Slackware for most of those years. Eventually I switched to
> archlinux
> > about 6 years ago, but as of the last few years I have been managing my
> own
> > distro using my own package system. I prefer stability of most of the
> system
> > yet I want bleeding edge on some of it, such as kdevelop. But I don't
> like
> > having to upgrade a ton of stuff, just because a new version was
> released,
> > only so I can keep current with kdevelop and a few other apps.
> >
> > I've never been much of a GNOME person. The early days had such horrific
> > memory problems that it put a sour taste in my mouth that even today I
> cannot
> > shake. GNOME 2 is great, I despise GNOME 3 and Unity, but I am very
> happy with
> > KDE 4.7.3.
> >
> > I look forward to lots of questions and answers on this group, and many
> > interesting discussions. I am searching for a real "community" to be a
> part of
> > that is actually Linux oriented.
> >
> > Nathan
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Nov 12 12:26:46 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:26:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121225340.32290@Dragon>

Sounds good. As another non-drinker Dave & Busters sounds like fun, plus I 
need to pick some stuff up in that area (;

(Now when you say "Wednesday" do you mean THIS wednesday or just a 
wednesday?)

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
> I believe we've had another existential crisis. Who are we? Why are we here?
>
> While I can't answer those questions, I can propose another beer
> meeting. Who's with me!?
>
> This time around, I was thinking something in the Maple Grove area
> would be good, to encourage a visit from our friends in St. Cloud. I
> was also thinking it might be fun if there was more to do than drink
> beer and break glasses. Perhaps skee ball?
>
> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>
> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Erik
>
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> http://mitc0185.com/
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-Yaron

--

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 12:30:00 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:30:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121225340.32290@Dragon>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121225340.32290@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CANNReEHi=nGxL9P6n7U_sZgrOhx3uPm0LgttFPArZ_OPwzG=Pw@mail.gmail.com>

Not necessarily this Wednesday. However, the Wednesday after is the
day before Thanksgiving, so maybe not the best Wednesday for a beer
meeting (or maybe a good one?). I was thinking maybe Wednesday,
11/30/11?

Or, if Dave & Busters gets voted down, then I guess any other night
would work fine.

-Erik

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> Sounds good. As another non-drinker Dave & Busters sounds like fun, plus I
> need to pick some stuff up in that area (;
>
> (Now when you say "Wednesday" do you mean THIS wednesday or just a
> wednesday?)
>
> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>
>> Hi Everyone,
>> I believe we've had another existential crisis. Who are we? Why are we
>> here?
>>
>> While I can't answer those questions, I can propose another beer
>> meeting. Who's with me!?
>>
>> This time around, I was thinking something in the Maple Grove area
>> would be good, to encourage a visit from our friends in St. Cloud. I
>> was also thinking it might be fun if there was more to do than drink
>> beer and break glasses. Perhaps skee ball?
>>
>> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
>> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>>
>>
>> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>>
>> Thoughts?
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>> --
>> Erik K. Mitchell
>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>> http://mitc0185.com/
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From canito at dalan.us  Sat Nov 12 13:49:12 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:49:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
Message-ID: <20111112134912.bh1bzf2o9w8cog8o@mail.dalan.us>


>
> On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:38 AM, J Cruit wrote:
>
>> I'd like to but Wednesday's are bad nights for me.  Plus I'd prefer
>> old fashioned stuff like an Irish bar with darts :)
>>
>> --j
>>

I'd just like to add that if the LUG is considering Irish for later  
down the line Merlins Rest Pub is where it's at!


----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From j at packetgod.com  Sat Nov 12 14:27:27 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:27:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20111112134912.bh1bzf2o9w8cog8o@mail.dalan.us>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<20111112134912.bh1bzf2o9w8cog8o@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <CADr-737v1EG0wGX6NTxw+c3EpY4WL4OTeB+mHAofcvGFC81PoA@mail.gmail.com>

Merlin's is great as they are Kilt friendly and have a great scotch selection...

On 11/12/11, David Alanis <canito at dalan.us> wrote:
>
>>
>> On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:38 AM, J Cruit wrote:
>>
>>> I'd like to but Wednesday's are bad nights for me.  Plus I'd prefer
>>> old fashioned stuff like an Irish bar with darts :)
>>>
>>> --j
>>>
>
> I'd just like to add that if the LUG is considering Irish for later
> down the line Merlins Rest Pub is where it's at!
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sat Nov 12 14:31:52 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:31:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111112143152.802fa39fa43202ada6fe2799@jasonhsu.com>

+1 for Dave & Busters, provided that it doesn't switch to Unity and require the triangular orange emblem that's visible from 600 feet behind  :)

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Nov 12 15:43:30 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:43:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20111112143152.802fa39fa43202ada6fe2799@jasonhsu.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111112143152.802fa39fa43202ada6fe2799@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121543050.1334@Dragon>

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> +1 for Dave & Busters, provided that it doesn't switch to Unity and require the triangular orange emblem that's visible from 600 feet behind  :)


Anyone want to chip in to get Jason a T-Shirt that says "SCREW U(nity)" on 
it?

-Yaron

--

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sat Nov 12 16:29:29 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:29:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121543050.1334@Dragon>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111112143152.802fa39fa43202ada6fe2799@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121543050.1334@Dragon>
Message-ID: <20111112162929.ca7147bdf9fe318c0f907ca2@jasonhsu.com>

No thanks, I'd rather wear a Swift Linux T-shirt.  I prefer to think of myself as for things rather than against things.  :)

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:43:30 -0600 (CST)
Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:
> 
> > +1 for Dave & Busters, provided that it doesn't switch to Unity and require the triangular orange emblem that's visible from 600 feet behind  :)
> 
> 
> Anyone want to chip in to get Jason a T-Shirt that says "SCREW U(nity)" on 
> it?
> 

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Nov 12 16:31:51 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 16:31:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <20111112162929.ca7147bdf9fe318c0f907ca2@jasonhsu.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111112143152.802fa39fa43202ada6fe2799@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121543050.1334@Dragon>
	<20111112162929.ca7147bdf9fe318c0f907ca2@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111121631110.1334@Dragon>



On Sat, 12 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> No thanks, I'd rather wear a Swift Linux T-shirt.  I prefer to think of myself as for things rather than against things.  :)

Well then you need to come up with a logo. (;


-Yaron

--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 17:51:16 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:51:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux, what hardware is best?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I think they aren't going to get Netflix streaming working for Linux 
anytime soon.  Here's one discussion:

http://developer.netflix.com/forum/read/94750

I saw a couple of others and they made the situation sound even worse than 
that one.

I have never used Netflix's streaming feature (even though it was 
available for free with Netflix for awhile) because I didn't have a lot of 
incentive and my main HDTV is hooked up to a Linux box.  But now I'm 
thinking I might drop DirecTV and do more TV via the web.  Netflix 
streaming might be $8 now, which is a lot cheaper than DirecTV, if I can 
make it work well enough.

I can stream Netflix using another external device like Wii, PS3 or 
Xbox360...

http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks

...but I don't own any of those.  There also are a few Roku products to 
choose from:

http://www.roku.com/roku-products

Now that my daughter is 4 years old, it might be a good time to get a 
video game machine of some kind.

Anyway, if you have found a way to make Linux do Netflix streaming, I hope 
you will share it.  If you don't have that but you know something about 
how well the other products work with Netflix, then I hope you'll share 
that.  Thanks.

Mike

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sat Nov 12 17:55:39 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:55:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
 what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4D541879-A347-416A-AECF-E38BC7FA8B75@me.com>

I suggest the Wii if you need to get a console otherwise (as the owner of a 360 and a Roku and part-time user of a Wii) the Roku is the best set-top device for video that I've used.

--
Ryan

On Nov 12, 2011, at 5:51 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> I think they aren't going to get Netflix streaming working for Linux anytime soon.  Here's one discussion:
> 
> http://developer.netflix.com/forum/read/94750
> 
> I saw a couple of others and they made the situation sound even worse than that one.
> 
> I have never used Netflix's streaming feature (even though it was available for free with Netflix for awhile) because I didn't have a lot of incentive and my main HDTV is hooked up to a Linux box.  But now I'm thinking I might drop DirecTV and do more TV via the web.  Netflix streaming might be $8 now, which is a lot cheaper than DirecTV, if I can make it work well enough.
> 
> I can stream Netflix using another external device like Wii, PS3 or Xbox360...
> 
> http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks
> 
> ...but I don't own any of those.  There also are a few Roku products to choose from:
> 
> http://www.roku.com/roku-products
> 
> Now that my daughter is 4 years old, it might be a good time to get a video game machine of some kind.
> 
> Anyway, if you have found a way to make Linux do Netflix streaming, I hope you will share it.  If you don't have that but you know something about how well the other products work with Netflix, then I hope you'll share that.  Thanks.
> 
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From canito at dalan.us  Sat Nov 12 18:50:46 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:50:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
	what hardware is	best?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20111112185046.xhk5siajid7ow00k@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>:

> I think they aren't going to get Netflix streaming working for Linux
> anytime soon.  Here's one discussion:
>
> http://developer.netflix.com/forum/read/94750
>
> I saw a couple of others and they made the situation sound even worse
> than that one.
>
> I have never used Netflix's streaming feature (even though it was
> available for free with Netflix for awhile) because I didn't have a lot
> of incentive and my main HDTV is hooked up to a Linux box.  But now I'm
> thinking I might drop DirecTV and do more TV via the web.  Netflix
> streaming might be $8 now, which is a lot cheaper than DirecTV, if I
> can make it work well enough.
>
> I can stream Netflix using another external device like Wii, PS3 or   
> Xbox360...
>
> http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks
>
> ...but I don't own any of those.  There also are a few Roku products to
> choose from:
>
> http://www.roku.com/roku-products
>
> Now that my daughter is 4 years old, it might be a good time to get a
> video game machine of some kind.
>
> Anyway, if you have found a way to make Linux do Netflix streaming, I
> hope you will share it.  If you don't have that but you know something
> about how well the other products work with Netflix, then I hope you'll
> share that.  Thanks.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

Ever since my WII was taken to my parents home I looked for alternate  
ways to stream from netflix. Since it requires M$ Silverlight I  
dropped Netflix with the quickness. And what is sad about the whole  
thing is that when you cancel your membership they don't even list  
Linux as a reason for terminating your service as other content  
streaming providers do.

Then I started using xfinitytv.comcast.net, however they've started  
pulling the same shit now more and more with lot of the shows.

I finally signed up with hulu.com since it works great with Linux and  
I don't even think I need it, since most of the TV shows are made  
available free on line, such as Colbert Report, The Daily Show, Big  
Bang Theory, etc...

The other service that I use a lot if amazon.com to stream movies and  
shows. I think amazon and hulu.com are by far the best for me to  
stream movies and shows.

Mike in case you didn't know youtoube offers free movies and you can  
also rent a lot from there too.

http://www.youtube.com/movies

I will add that if you are looking to buy a console for your daughter  
the Wii would probably make the most sense. I will leave it up to you  
to decide if you want to get netflix. My other beef with them is that  
most times you can't stream the movie you want and have to order the  
DVD instead. It doesn't help me cause I just pay for on line access  
anyway.



----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Sat Nov 12 18:42:42 2011
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:42:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list]
	=?utf-8?q?Netflix_streaming_-_if_no_Linux=2C_what_ha?=
	=?utf-8?q?rdware_is_best=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <836f066612470d093bc7bc6c4abd6b2a@flyballdogs.com>

I've had a Roku for about 2 years and love it.  If there was an ESPN3 
channel, I'd be happy but I get by watching the Australian Football 
League games through a laptop connected to the tv.

FYI, if have Amazon Prime, you get a lot of the Amazon video selection 
included and there is a Roku channel.

-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Sat Nov 12 19:15:30 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 01:15:30 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
	what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <165853414-1321146929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356202329-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>

+1 for the Wii, especially for younger children as I have. The games are much more fun watching them jump around and shake and what not. Netflix streaming works well on it too.

Also, there are Blu-Ray players now that support other OTV such as Vudu and maybe Netflix too. My problem with Amazon Prime is selection is way smaller last I checked. 
Hulu with commercials? That's a deal breaker for me. 

As for Linux support, I would be very interested in that for Netflix but I won't hold my breath. My TV has a VGA-in port and stereo so its easy to hook up the laptop or any computer really. In Ubuntu on my laptop I just set the VGA out port it to mirror my desktop and just start any video file, DVD, etc.


Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:51:16 
To: TCLUG List<tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux, what hardware is best?

I think they aren't going to get Netflix streaming working for Linux 
anytime soon.  Here's one discussion:

http://developer.netflix.com/forum/read/94750

I saw a couple of others and they made the situation sound even worse than 
that one.

I have never used Netflix's streaming feature (even though it was 
available for free with Netflix for awhile) because I didn't have a lot of 
incentive and my main HDTV is hooked up to a Linux box.  But now I'm 
thinking I might drop DirecTV and do more TV via the web.  Netflix 
streaming might be $8 now, which is a lot cheaper than DirecTV, if I can 
make it work well enough.

I can stream Netflix using another external device like Wii, PS3 or 
Xbox360...

http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks

...but I don't own any of those.  There also are a few Roku products to 
choose from:

http://www.roku.com/roku-products

Now that my daughter is 4 years old, it might be a good time to get a 
video game machine of some kind.

Anyway, if you have found a way to make Linux do Netflix streaming, I hope 
you will share it.  If you don't have that but you know something about 
how well the other products work with Netflix, then I hope you'll share 
that.  Thanks.

Mike
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From loren.burlingame at gmail.com  Fri Nov 11 18:19:14 2011
From: loren.burlingame at gmail.com (Loren H Burlingame)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:19:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Introduction
In-Reply-To: <17617571.a5MTxvOojj@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
References: <17617571.a5MTxvOojj@thinkpad.nmecs.com>
Message-ID: <4EBDBB82.9070303@gmail.com>

Welcome to the TCLUG.

Slackware was my first distro as well.


On 11/11/2011 5:11 PM, Nathan England wrote:
> Hello Hello,
>
> I have recently found your LUG online while searching for a new LUG to
> participate in. My local LUG has lost any resemblance to a LUG and I have
> decided to look elsewhere. My interest in this particular LUG is based in the
> fact that, though I personally live in .az.us I have a lot of family in the
> Twin Cities and my parents live in Forest Lakes.
>
> I am a 32 year old PHP developer and LAMP administrator. I have been using
> Linux since I got my first pc. My parents thought it good for me to learn how
> to use a computer and bought me a Compaq Presario with Windows 3.1 and DOS 5
> or 6 for my birthday. My elementary school used Apple's, so it became
> immediately clear to me that there must be a variety of operating systems
> available for a computer. So I hopped on yahoo and began looking through the
> categories and found computers / operating systems and something new that had
> just come about a couple months before called slackware! Not knowing what I
> was doing, I downloaded a bunch of diskette images and rawrite, wrote all the
> images to I believe 11 or 14 diskettes and never looked back...
>
> Okay, not quite so easy. I think I made it through about half the disks, maybe
> the a package and then I hit a bad diskette. So I had to reload windows from
> my Presario recovery cds and download the images again and write them to some
> new floppies. I don't think I slept at all that night, 14.4 modems were
> awesome!!!
>
> Since then things have changed a lot, thankfully! I have spent my years
> tinkering around with Ubuntu, Fedora and *SUSE* in all its incarnations, but
> used Slackware for most of those years. Eventually I switched to archlinux
> about 6 years ago, but as of the last few years I have been managing my own
> distro using my own package system. I prefer stability of most of the system
> yet I want bleeding edge on some of it, such as kdevelop. But I don't like
> having to upgrade a ton of stuff, just because a new version was released,
> only so I can keep current with kdevelop and a few other apps.
>
> I've never been much of a GNOME person. The early days had such horrific
> memory problems that it put a sour taste in my mouth that even today I cannot
> shake. GNOME 2 is great, I despise GNOME 3 and Unity, but I am very happy with
> KDE 4.7.3.
>
> I look forward to lots of questions and answers on this group, and many
> interesting discussions. I am searching for a real "community" to be a part of
> that is actually Linux oriented.
>
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From j at packetgod.com  Sat Nov 12 19:31:34 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:31:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
	what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <836f066612470d093bc7bc6c4abd6b2a@flyballdogs.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<836f066612470d093bc7bc6c4abd6b2a@flyballdogs.com>
Message-ID: <CADr-735neOF=dzfujTov7-D7Zf9rYpjrs9B0OF=cD94JM20m_g@mail.gmail.com>

A "friend" told me they use showrss... "Works every time"

I would like to point out that Netflix are just being dorks as Roku is
built on Linux, as far as I've heard its just about controlling the
DRM which they can do in Silverlight.



On 11/12/11, Kathryn Hogg <kjh at flyballdogs.com> wrote:
> I've had a Roku for about 2 years and love it.  If there was an ESPN3
> channel, I'd be happy but I get by watching the Australian Football
> League games through a laptop connected to the tv.
>
> FYI, if have Amazon Prime, you get a lot of the Amazon video selection
> included and there is a Roku channel.
>
> --
> Kathryn Hogg
> http://womensfooty.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug.org at cyberians.net  Fri Nov 11 16:33:26 2011
From: tclug.org at cyberians.net (tclug.org at cyberians.net)
Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:33:26 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
Message-ID: <20111111153326.950572xh431z6qie@host312.hostmonster.com>

Mark & Erik,

Actually, I appreciate Jason's posts/comments and, compared the  
multitude of off-topic, drama-based-banter that I have read on this  
list over the years, I am more annoyed by either of you attempting to  
chastise an on-topic poster over his "style".

Jason has an intriguing perspective that doesn't carry the ego of some  
other posters on this list, and I find it enlightening and amusing.   
While I may not always agree with him, I would much prefer the limited  
experience with a passion for the technology compared to the subtle  
condescension of an egotistical old guard.



-----Original Message-----
On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Mark Katerberg  
<mark.katerberg at gmail.com> wrote:
> Do you have a blog? Have you ever thought of starting one? recently  
> your posts seem more in line with that than with a mailing list.

> +1

> Jason, you have some good insights and clearly a large dose of  
> passion for >desktop linux. That said, this is a discussion mailing  
> list, not a place to >post general thinky/feely type stuff.

> I think you could gain a significant following if you posted this  
> type of >analysis and commentary on a blog versus a mailing list,  
> and you'd annoy fewer >people as well. :) win/win



From nesius at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 19:56:40 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:56:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
	what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 5:51 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I can stream Netflix using another external device like Wii, PS3 or
> Xbox360...
>
> http://www.netflix.com/**HowItWorks <http://www.netflix.com/HowItWorks>
>
> ...but I don't own any of those.  There also are a few Roku products to
> choose from:
>

I think the PS3 is the most compelling console solution since it is also a
Blu-Ray player.  My next option would be an Oppo Blu-Ray DVD player - which
is also an amazing upscaling dvd player, netflix streaming platform,
etc...  I think it can pull files off of a media server too.

http://oppodigital.com/blu-ray-bdp-93/

-Rob
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From andyzib at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 20:15:30 2011
From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:15:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
	what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>

XBox 360, Wii, and PS3 do Netflix. Downside of the Wii is no HD, where
the XBox and PS3 are HD (if your internet connection is fast enough.)
If you live n the Apple universe (iTunes, iPhone, iPad, Mac, etc.)
Apple TV2 is a great way to go. I do pictures from iPhoto, You Tube,
Netflix, etc. all the time on my AppleTV2. If you don't live in the
Apple universe, the Roku player is a great way to go. Netflix, Amazon
Instant, Hulu Plus, and more. Roku player has more content sources
available content than Apple TV2, but it was the iOS and Mac
integration that had me go the Apple TV route.

Beyond that, most Blu-Ray players on the market support Netflix
streaming, as do most of the Internet connected HTDVs. Personally I am
dubious about how long Blu-Ray and HDTVs will be updated by their
manufacturers who are more focused on their current line of products,
not the product line they released last year.

-- 
Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com

From mark.katerberg at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 20:31:56 2011
From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:31:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Finally tried Unity - not liking it
In-Reply-To: <20111111153326.950572xh431z6qie@host312.hostmonster.com>
References: <20111111153326.950572xh431z6qie@host312.hostmonster.com>
Message-ID: <CAA6U0N2CczELTMg7JDr_DN_Qrr+-n6kLe41RKbyDoDaX16=B+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Old guard? I've been using Linux for less than 4 years. I didn't tell Jason
not to post, but I thought he might want to make his posts more visible. I
hardly think my comment could be considered chastisement. Having spoken
with Jason in person multiple times, I do not think he received my post
that way, but if he did, I would have been more than happy to explain my
reasoning. It seems like you are inferring quite a bit.

Not intending to offend (once again),
On Nov 12, 2011 7:33 PM, <tclug.org at cyberians.net> wrote:

> Mark & Erik,
>
> Actually, I appreciate Jason's posts/comments and, compared the multitude
> of off-topic, drama-based-banter that I have read on this list over the
> years, I am more annoyed by either of you attempting to chastise an
> on-topic poster over his "style".
>
> Jason has an intriguing perspective that doesn't carry the ego of some
> other posters on this list, and I find it enlightening and amusing.  While
> I may not always agree with him, I would much prefer the limited experience
> with a passion for the technology compared to the subtle condescension of
> an egotistical old guard.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:48 PM, Mark Katerberg <mark.katerberg at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Do you have a blog? Have you ever thought of starting one? recently your
>> posts seem more in line with that than with a mailing list.
>>
>
>  +1
>>
>
>  Jason, you have some good insights and clearly a large dose of passion
>> for >desktop linux. That said, this is a discussion mailing list, not a
>> place to >post general thinky/feely type stuff.
>>
>
>  I think you could gain a significant following if you posted this type of
>> >analysis and commentary on a blog versus a mailing list, and you'd annoy
>> fewer >people as well. :) win/win
>>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Sat Nov 12 20:34:05 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:34:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
 what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>

Xbox also requires a subscription to Xbox Live. Something I won't pay for. The others, at least the Wii and Roku, will do it for free and the Roku, depending on the unit you buy, will do HD.

--
Ryan

On Nov 12, 2011, at 8:15 PM, Andrew S. Zbikowski wrote:

> XBox 360, Wii, and PS3 do Netflix. Downside of the Wii is no HD, where
> the XBox and PS3 are HD (if your internet connection is fast enough.)
> If you live n the Apple universe (iTunes, iPhone, iPad, Mac, etc.)
> Apple TV2 is a great way to go. I do pictures from iPhoto, You Tube,
> Netflix, etc. all the time on my AppleTV2. If you don't live in the
> Apple universe, the Roku player is a great way to go. Netflix, Amazon
> Instant, Hulu Plus, and more. Roku player has more content sources
> available content than Apple TV2, but it was the iOS and Mac
> integration that had me go the Apple TV route.
> 
> Beyond that, most Blu-Ray players on the market support Netflix
> streaming, as do most of the Internet connected HTDVs. Personally I am
> dubious about how long Blu-Ray and HDTVs will be updated by their
> manufacturers who are more focused on their current line of products,
> not the product line they released last year.
> 
> -- 
> Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us
> IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 20:56:55 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 20:56:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
 what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <165853414-1321146929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356202329-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<165853414-1321146929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-356202329-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122045070.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, Justin Krejci wrote:

> As for Linux support, I would be very interested in that for Netflix but 
> I won't hold my breath. My TV has a VGA-in port and stereo so its easy 
> to hook up the laptop or any computer really. In Ubuntu on my laptop I 
> just set the VGA out port it to mirror my desktop and just start any 
> video file, DVD, etc.

I have a dual-DVI card on my Ubunt box and I use a DVI-to-HDMI cable to 
hook up the 1080p HDTV to one output and a monitor (1680x1050) on the 
other.  Right now I'm half-watching "Gnomeo and Juliet" with my wife and 
daughter on the HDTV (using vlc and a .iso file from the Ubuntu box) and 
typing this message on the monitor (actually via VNC in full screen mode 
in an SSH tunnel to a machine in my office using Alpine in an xterm that 
uses gmail's smtp server).  The wife doesn't like the monitor on the 
coffee table, but if we have guests, or another good reason, I can easily 
move the monitor.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Nov 12 21:38:18 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:38:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
 what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> Xbox also requires a subscription to Xbox Live. Something I won't pay 
> for. The others, at least the Wii and Roku, will do it for free and the 
> Roku, depending on the unit you buy, will do HD.


Thanks for all the comments, so far.  I have been hearing so many things 
about Roku, and the price is good, so I think I'm just going to get one of 
them and deal with the game-console issue later, but I am getting the 
feeling that a 4-year-old girl might like the Wii best.

Regarding Roku, any idea which is best?:

http://www.roku.com/roku-products

Between HD and XD, I like the idea of getting 1080p, but is there enough 
1080p content out there that it will matter?  Comparing XD to XS, I don't 
know what "fully loaded" means, I guess ethernet would be good, maybe I 
can use USB, but I don't know what any of these things will be doing. 
Here's a review:

http://reviews.cnet.com/digital-media-receivers/roku-2-xs/4505-6739_7-34850104.html

So "games" means one game?  I guess people really, really, really like 
Angry Birds, though, but that might mean it's an addiction the family can 
live without.  ;-)  I'll probably go with XS unless someone thinks it's a 
bad idea.

Thanks again for all the good ideas.

Mike

From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Sat Nov 12 21:48:45 2011
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:48:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list]
	=?utf-8?q?Netflix_streaming_-_if_no_Linux=2C_what_ha?=
	=?utf-8?q?rdware_is_best=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <488f011bf0752310c4652546546869be@flyballdogs.com>

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:38:18 -0600 (CST), Mike Miller wrote:
> Regarding Roku, any idea which is best?:
>
> http://www.roku.com/roku-products
>
> Between HD and XD, I like the idea of getting 1080p, but is there
> enough 1080p content out there that it will matter?  Comparing XD to
> XS, I don't know what "fully loaded" means, I guess ethernet would be
> good, maybe I can use USB, but I don't know what any of these things
> will be doing. Here's a review:

I would get the XS mostly because I don't like streaming over wifi if I 
can avoid it. I use the USB port to play video files when I don't feel 
like booting up the old laptop that I have connected to my TV.  The 
formats that it supports are a bit limited but mp4 and mkv are 
supported.

It looks like the Roku 2 only has hdmi and composite video outputs.


-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com

From florin at iucha.net  Sat Nov 12 23:20:31 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:20:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] remotely controlling ROKU
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20111113052030.GP18686@styx.iucha.org>

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 09:38:18PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> Thanks for all the comments, so far.  I have been hearing so many things  
> about Roku, and the price is good, so I think I'm just going to get one 
> of them 

Me too!  Thanks for the great ideas.

But I have another question - can I control the roku remotely from my
laptop while it streams music from my storage server?

I do not have a TV in the office but I have a nice receiver and set of
speakers.  I know that I could set up a Linux box running Apache::MP3
or GNU MPD but I would like to use Roku since it is smaller and
already works.

Thoughts?  Alternatives?

Thanks.
florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Sat Nov 12 23:24:54 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:24:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
 what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <488f011bf0752310c4652546546869be@flyballdogs.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<488f011bf0752310c4652546546869be@flyballdogs.com>
Message-ID: <E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>

Not true, the original has both, so does my XD Roku 1.

The 2 is the only one that supports network media servers.


On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:48 PM, Kathryn Hogg wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:38:18 -0600 (CST), Mike Miller wrote:
>> Regarding Roku, any idea which is best?:
>> 
>> http://www.roku.com/roku-products
>> 
>> Between HD and XD, I like the idea of getting 1080p, but is there
>> enough 1080p content out there that it will matter?  Comparing XD to
>> XS, I don't know what "fully loaded" means, I guess ethernet would be
>> good, maybe I can use USB, but I don't know what any of these things
>> will be doing. Here's a review:
> 
> I would get the XS mostly because I don't like streaming over wifi if I can avoid it. I use the USB port to play video files when I don't feel like booting up the old laptop that I have connected to my TV.  The formats that it supports are a bit limited but mp4 and mkv are supported.
> 
> It looks like the Roku 2 only has hdmi and composite video outputs.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Kathryn Hogg
> http://womensfooty.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From jjensen at apache.org  Sat Nov 12 23:23:51 2011
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:23:51 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>

Whether Keegan's or not, downtown mpls would be a good central-metro
location.  Perhaps a Fri would be easier particularly for the more
distant attendees?


On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:51 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> Keegan's!
>
> They have a happy hour from 430-630 with 1/2 price taps and apps and $3.50 rails and wines...
>
> Just saying... Also I'm redoing their website so... when you go to keeganspub.com just think about how much BETTER their new website will be when I'm done with it.
>
> --
> Ryan
>
> On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:38 AM, J Cruit wrote:
>
>> I'd like to but Wednesday's are bad nights for me. ?Plus I'd prefer
>> old fashioned stuff like an Irish bar with darts :)
>>
>> --j
>>
>> On 11/12/11, Robert Nesius <nesius at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 AM, Erik Mitchell
>>> <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So I'm suggesting Dave & Busters, and I'm thinking a Wednesday would
>>>> be good, because they have 1/2 price games on Wednesdays right now:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.daveandbusters.com/Promotions/Default.aspx?id=3474&intcmp=halfpriceback_landing
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm up for that. :) I'm really mainly interested in chatting and getting to
>>> know people so not sure I'll throw ski-balls unless we're playing to win a
>>> tux plushy. :)
>>>
>>> -Rob
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From j at packetgod.com  Sun Nov 13 00:03:50 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:03:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
	what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<488f011bf0752310c4652546546869be@flyballdogs.com>
	<E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>
Message-ID: <CADr-737X_ea4y5xtQHvz6Pyk8y7nk9NewmJiZhR0D5k5wR8hJA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't see network media servers in the list, but that would be my
most important feature.  I'd go for the XS for the ethernet and USB
except I really want the purple color :)

On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> Not true, the original has both, so does my XD Roku 1.
>
> The 2 is the only one that supports network media servers.
>
>
> On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:48 PM, Kathryn Hogg wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:38:18 -0600 (CST), Mike Miller wrote:
>>> Regarding Roku, any idea which is best?:
>>>
>>> http://www.roku.com/roku-products
>>>
>>> Between HD and XD, I like the idea of getting 1080p, but is there
>>> enough 1080p content out there that it will matter? ?Comparing XD to
>>> XS, I don't know what "fully loaded" means, I guess ethernet would be
>>> good, maybe I can use USB, but I don't know what any of these things
>>> will be doing. Here's a review:
>>
>> I would get the XS mostly because I don't like streaming over wifi if I can avoid it. I use the USB port to play video files when I don't feel like booting up the old laptop that I have connected to my TV. ?The formats that it supports are a bit limited but mp4 and mkv are supported.
>>
>> It looks like the Roku 2 only has hdmi and composite video outputs.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kathryn Hogg
>> http://womensfooty.com
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Sun Nov 13 00:48:10 2011
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:48:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list]
	=?utf-8?q?Netflix_streaming_-_if_no_Linux=2C_what_ha?=
	=?utf-8?q?rdware_is_best=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<488f011bf0752310c4652546546869be@flyballdogs.com>
	<E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>
Message-ID: <88ac727c89f0831817c33ece3d5c5641@flyballdogs.com>

On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:24:54 -0600, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> Not true, the original has both, so does my XD Roku 1.

That's why I said the Roku 2 only has hdmi and composite video outputs. 
My older model also has component video and s-video.

>
> The 2 is the only one that supports network media servers.

There are private channels that can be used for streaming local media:
http://streamfree.tv/apps/roku-private-channels/local-media-streaming/

-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Nov 13 07:15:07 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:15:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
 what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <CADr-737X_ea4y5xtQHvz6Pyk8y7nk9NewmJiZhR0D5k5wR8hJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<488f011bf0752310c4652546546869be@flyballdogs.com>
	<E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>
	<CADr-737X_ea4y5xtQHvz6Pyk8y7nk9NewmJiZhR0D5k5wR8hJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6910BE5A-16EB-4C3B-85A3-71B9B104C734@me.com>

My apologies, I read that as component. 

--
Ryan

On Nov 13, 2011, at 12:03 AM, J Cruit wrote:

> I don't see network media servers in the list, but that would be my
> most important feature.  I'd go for the XS for the ethernet and USB
> except I really want the purple color :)
> 
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 11:24 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>> Not true, the original has both, so does my XD Roku 1.
>> 
>> The 2 is the only one that supports network media servers.
>> 
>> 
>> On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:48 PM, Kathryn Hogg wrote:
>> 
>>> On Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:38:18 -0600 (CST), Mike Miller wrote:
>>>> Regarding Roku, any idea which is best?:
>>>> 
>>>> http://www.roku.com/roku-products
>>>> 
>>>> Between HD and XD, I like the idea of getting 1080p, but is there
>>>> enough 1080p content out there that it will matter?  Comparing XD to
>>>> XS, I don't know what "fully loaded" means, I guess ethernet would be
>>>> good, maybe I can use USB, but I don't know what any of these things
>>>> will be doing. Here's a review:
>>> 
>>> I would get the XS mostly because I don't like streaming over wifi if I can avoid it. I use the USB port to play video files when I don't feel like booting up the old laptop that I have connected to my TV.  The formats that it supports are a bit limited but mp4 and mkv are supported.
>>> 
>>> It looks like the Roku 2 only has hdmi and composite video outputs.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Kathryn Hogg
>>> http://womensfooty.com
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mjb at umn.edu  Sun Nov 13 07:29:42 2011
From: mjb at umn.edu (Michael Berkowski)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:29:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] remotely controlling ROKU
In-Reply-To: <20111113052030.GP18686@styx.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111113052030.GP18686@styx.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <4EBFC646.3070803@umn.edu>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


> But I have another question - can I control the roku remotely from my
> laptop while it streams music from my storage server?

Yes, you can. It has a very simple API (from which various mobile apps are
built).  The Roku merely listens on port 8080 for commands like "press up",
"press down", "press home", or even just "press u", "press d", "press h".

It's pretty fun to try out.

$ telnet roku.ip.ad.dr 8080
Escape character is '^]'.
J0A15D013978
ETHMAC 00:0d:12:12:12:12
WIFIMAC 00:0d:23:23:23:23
>press u
>press l
>press l
>press ok

- From this you might be able to script something more useful.
++++++++++++++++++++
Michael Berkowski
Linux Systems Administrator and Programmer
Minitex Library Information Network / MnLINK
University of Minnesota
PGP Public Key: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~berk0081/pgp/pubkey.asc
++++++++++++++++++++


On 11/12/2011 11:20 PM, Florin Iucha wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 09:38:18PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>> Thanks for all the comments, so far.  I have been hearing so many things  
>> about Roku, and the price is good, so I think I'm just going to get one 
>> of them 
> 
> Me too!  Thanks for the great ideas.
> 
> But I have another question - can I control the roku remotely from my
> laptop while it streams music from my storage server?
> 
> I do not have a TV in the office but I have a nice receiver and set of
> speakers.  I know that I could set up a Linux box running Apache::MP3
> or GNU MPD but I would like to use Roku since it is smaller and
> already works.
> 
> Thoughts?  Alternatives?
> 
> Thanks.
> florin
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From florin at iucha.net  Sun Nov 13 13:07:25 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:07:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] remotely controlling ROKU
In-Reply-To: <4EBFC646.3070803@umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111113052030.GP18686@styx.iucha.org> <4EBFC646.3070803@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20111113190724.GR18686@styx.iucha.org>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 07:29:42AM -0600, Michael Berkowski wrote:
> > But I have another question - can I control the roku remotely from my
> > laptop while it streams music from my storage server?
> 
> Yes, you can. It has a very simple API (from which various mobile apps are
> built).  The Roku merely listens on port 8080 for commands like "press up",
> "press down", "press home", or even just "press u", "press d", "press h".
> 
> It's pretty fun to try out.
> 
> $ telnet roku.ip.ad.dr 8080
> Escape character is '^]'.
> J0A15D013978
> ETHMAC 00:0d:12:12:12:12
> WIFIMAC 00:0d:23:23:23:23
> >press u
> >press l
> >press l
> >press ok
> 
> - From this you might be able to script something more useful.

Turtle graphics, yay!

Can I script "play $foo.mp3" or "play $band in random order"?

Thanks,
florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From djsteinhafel at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 13:43:16 2011
From: djsteinhafel at gmail.com (David)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:43:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Let's do it! I called Dave and Busters yesterday on unrelated
"business" and learned they don't have pinball machines. What's that
all about?

Wed or Fri, D&B or Keegan's works for me.

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 14:09:36 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:09:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] remotely controlling ROKU
In-Reply-To: <4EBFC646.3070803@umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111113052030.GP18686@styx.iucha.org> <4EBFC646.3070803@umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111131359530.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, Michael Berkowski wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
>> But I have another question - can I control the roku remotely from my
>> laptop while it streams music from my storage server?
>
> Yes, you can. It has a very simple API (from which various mobile apps are
> built).  The Roku merely listens on port 8080 for commands like "press up",
> "press down", "press home", or even just "press u", "press d", "press h".
>
> It's pretty fun to try out.
>
> $ telnet roku.ip.ad.dr 8080
> Escape character is '^]'.
> J0A15D013978
> ETHMAC 00:0d:12:12:12:12
> WIFIMAC 00:0d:23:23:23:23
>> press u
>> press l
>> press l
>> press ok
>
> - From this you might be able to script something more useful.


Wow.  That is fantastic.  If no one writes a GUI with keyboard shortcuts, 
I will be amazed.  The Roku developers don't already have one?

I just searched Synaptic for roku and found mt-daapd, which is described 
in Synaptic as below.  Maybe something can be done with that.

Mike


iTunes-compatible DAAP server

mt-daapd, now known as the Firefly Media Server, is a DAAP (Digital Audio 
Access Protocol) server that works with most POSIX-compatible operating 
systems. It allows you to share your music collection over the local 
network using the DAAP protocol also used by Apple's iTunes.

Popular uses of the Firefly Media Server include serving your digital 
music library to iTunes clients and/or SoundBridge devices from Roku.

Built-in transcoding support enables serving popular free music formats 
like FLAC, Ogg Vorbis or Musepack to those clients that do not otherwise 
support these formats. Transcoding happens on the fly, with the target 
format usually being WAV.

The server also features a web interface that can be used to control 
components of the server, trigger database updates, and create playlists.

Canonical does not provide updates for mt-daapd. Some updates may be 
provided by the Ubuntu community.

From ron at ron-l-j.com  Sun Nov 13 14:41:13 2011
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:41:13 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux, arm Linux,
	development
Message-ID: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>

Jason is a great asset to the TC LUG. Anyone as passionate about Linux as
Jason is can post to the lug six times a day in my opinion.  Jason has a
good plan for saving older computers that will not run vista or windows 7.
 I am running Minnesota swift Linux(Your're gonna make it after all!), and
it is very snappy!
Another beer meeting is good I would suggest early December but will make
it to one any time I can.
Now Netflix runs Silverlight and it is just a matter of time. I am doing
some C# programming because I feel I should get to know all the platforms
better. I read the msdn documentation and the news is M$ is dropping
Silverlight for HTML5. Apple jumped on that wagon first and I was happy to
hear. Now Adobe is going to eventually stop using flash in favor of HTML5.
Both companies have Development tools ready to go for HTML5. I think this
will be a great boon for Linux, regular users what something that just
works.

On the desktop side I think that tablet based interfaces and touch screen
is becoming the normal way for people that just consume media and are not
working on computers. I think the idea of the gnome 3 fallback is good,
but a choice of a gnome 2 interface style should be an option by default.
Now on to the arm world. Ice cream sandwich is supposed to be released
this December with full open source code.  And if anyone has looked at the
asus transformer prime with NVidia Tegra 3, 5 core GPU it looks pretty
good to me. Having a docking tablet with a keyboard is a great idea.
Do you think more arm based distributions is a good idea? It?s clear that
the power saving arm processors have an advantage in light weight areas.
The GPU?s run one core and then ramp up when more graphics intensive loads
are run.
As a developer I am more interested in C/C++ than the davlik java language
used. I am thinking of mono droid for android development. Does anyone on
the list have any experience in porting .net to Linux with mono? Or using
Mono Droid?
,Ron



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 14:44:28 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 14:44:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] remotely controlling ROKU
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111131359530.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111113052030.GP18686@styx.iucha.org> <4EBFC646.3070803@umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111131359530.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111131425580.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, Michael Berkowski wrote:
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>> 
>> 
>>> But I have another question - can I control the roku remotely from my
>>> laptop while it streams music from my storage server?
>> 
>> Yes, you can. It has a very simple API (from which various mobile apps are
>> built).  The Roku merely listens on port 8080 for commands like "press up",
>> "press down", "press home", or even just "press u", "press d", "press h".
>> 
>> It's pretty fun to try out.
>> 
>> $ telnet roku.ip.ad.dr 8080
>> Escape character is '^]'.
>> J0A15D013978
>> ETHMAC 00:0d:12:12:12:12
>> WIFIMAC 00:0d:23:23:23:23
>>> press u
>>> press l
>>> press l
>>> press ok
>> 
>> - From this you might be able to script something more useful.
>
>
> Wow.  That is fantastic.  If no one writes a GUI with keyboard 
> shortcuts, I will be amazed.  The Roku developers don't already have 
> one?


This looks like the sort of GUI I had in mind, but I don't think it does 
the keyboard shortcuts one would want:

http://blog.stellartech.us/?p=461

Specifically, one would want "Home" to be the Home key, "up, down, left, 
right" to be the arrow keys, "Select" to be Enter, "Play/Pause" to be the 
space bar, and maybe Ctrl-arrows (left and right) for "Rewind/Forward".

I learned something from his tactic of using aliases:

alias ru='echo "press up" | nc -n $rokuIP 8080'
alias rd='echo "press down" | nc -n $rokuIP 8080'
alias rl='echo "press left" | nc -n $rokuIP 8080'

Apparently, "press u" and "press up" are the same command -- only the 
first letter is used.  So "press pause" and "press play" are the same 
command.

Here's a little more about the commands (for N900, but maybe the same for 
other devices):

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=72165

I was surprised that I couldn't find more official documentation.  I 
wonder where that is hidden?  I also found this:

http://www.jpsaman.org/jpsaman/node/3

That seems to be for Roku HD1000, but it might work with other Roku 
devices.  Again, where are the official docs?

Best,
Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sun Nov 13 17:19:53 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:19:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux,
 arm Linux, development
In-Reply-To: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
References: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, ron at ron-l-j.com wrote:

> Anyone as passionate about Linux as Jason is can post to the lug six 
> times a day in my opinion.

As the kids today are saying, "+1".



-Yaron

--

From jjensen at apache.org  Sun Nov 13 17:37:54 2011
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:37:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux,
 arm Linux, development
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>
References: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CAKumxByjq9JdPq2975XFDz+2MR7MZ95jmFqcTgOZ2WoNhexXSQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, ron at ron-l-j.com wrote:
>
>> Anyone as passionate about Linux as Jason is can post to the lug six times
>> a day in my opinion.
>
> As the kids today are saying, "+1".

+1

Jason comes to nearly all the TCJUG meetings since 2010 summer, so
I've had a chance to have a number of conversations with him (and
dinner one night!).  He is a smart, nice, funny guy.  Please keep
posting, Jason.  I enjoy and learn from reading them.  It is a good
idea for you to have a blog, too!  I think you'd get some growth in
traffic, and maybe some ad revenue if you go that route  :-)

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 18:49:00 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:49:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux,
 arm Linux, development
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxByjq9JdPq2975XFDz+2MR7MZ95jmFqcTgOZ2WoNhexXSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>
	<CAKumxByjq9JdPq2975XFDz+2MR7MZ95jmFqcTgOZ2WoNhexXSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEErW8SNTvW8+TkDjf6HQcojZg1B=2PTM5n2jLGgaTAhCQ@mail.gmail.com>

Or, Jason, are you on Google+ or Twitter? Perhaps you'd like to share
your handles so people can follow. I too admire your enthusiasm.

As far as the beer meeting goes, some people have expressed an opinion
on location. I think there has been some support for D&B too, though.
I'm thinking it should come down to a vote.

However, I'm scheming to make it interesting. How would people feel if
the winners of the vote -- those who get to go to their preferred
location, are required to buy the first round of beer? It can be cheap
beer in pitchers, so not too much money. I think it would make it
interesting. Thoughts?

-Erik

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Jeff Jensen <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, ron at ron-l-j.com wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone as passionate about Linux as Jason is can post to the lug six times
>>> a day in my opinion.
>>
>> As the kids today are saying, "+1".
>
> +1
>
> Jason comes to nearly all the TCJUG meetings since 2010 summer, so
> I've had a chance to have a number of conversations with him (and
> dinner one night!). ?He is a smart, nice, funny guy. ?Please keep
> posting, Jason. ?I enjoy and learn from reading them. ?It is a good
> idea for you to have a blog, too! ?I think you'd get some growth in
> traffic, and maybe some ad revenue if you go that route ?:-)
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From canito at dalan.us  Sun Nov 13 19:31:17 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:31:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux,
	arm	Linux, development
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEErW8SNTvW8+TkDjf6HQcojZg1B=2PTM5n2jLGgaTAhCQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>
	<CAKumxByjq9JdPq2975XFDz+2MR7MZ95jmFqcTgOZ2WoNhexXSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEErW8SNTvW8+TkDjf6HQcojZg1B=2PTM5n2jLGgaTAhCQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111113193117.muaxgf9qau2sogw0@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>:

> As far as the beer meeting goes, some people have expressed an opinion
> on location.

I normally would not travel to Maple Grove to have a beer. This being  
an exception I am totally down to go hang out at D&B's to meet you and  
others from the list. I think your original idea was to meet in Maple  
Grove and have the *elitist* Linux users from St Cloud come down ;)

I only recommended Merlins as a spot for a later date since someone  
else suggested an Irish pub for a meeting.

So I will take you up on the first free round of beer.




----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 20:49:30 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:49:30 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux,
 arm Linux, development
In-Reply-To: <20111113193117.muaxgf9qau2sogw0@mail.dalan.us>
References: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>
	<CAKumxByjq9JdPq2975XFDz+2MR7MZ95jmFqcTgOZ2WoNhexXSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEErW8SNTvW8+TkDjf6HQcojZg1B=2PTM5n2jLGgaTAhCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111113193117.muaxgf9qau2sogw0@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111132048150.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, David Alanis wrote:

> I only recommended Merlins as a spot for a later date since someone else 
> suggested an Irish pub for a meeting.

Maple Grove is quite a drive (do we even know for sure that anyone from 
St. Cloud will show up?), but Merlins Rest is less than a 5 minute walk 
from my house, so I'll show up for that one.  ;-)

Mike

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sun Nov 13 21:19:20 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 21:19:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux,
 arm Linux, development
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111132048150.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>
	<CAKumxByjq9JdPq2975XFDz+2MR7MZ95jmFqcTgOZ2WoNhexXSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEErW8SNTvW8+TkDjf6HQcojZg1B=2PTM5n2jLGgaTAhCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111113193117.muaxgf9qau2sogw0@mail.dalan.us>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111132048150.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4F9070E5-720C-40CC-BA7E-2690B00BD568@me.com>

If that's all we need to qualify... Keegan's is half a mile from me... but I can't guarantee I can come without a hard date - stupid job makes me go on the road randomly.


On Nov 13, 2011, at 8:49 PM, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, David Alanis wrote:
> 
>> I only recommended Merlins as a spot for a later date since someone else suggested an Irish pub for a meeting.
> 
> Maple Grove is quite a drive (do we even know for sure that anyone from St. Cloud will show up?), but Merlins Rest is less than a 5 minute walk from my house, so I'll show up for that one.  ;-)
> 
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tlunde at gmail.com  Sun Nov 13 22:54:33 2011
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 22:54:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Netflix streaming - if no Linux,
	what hardware is best?
In-Reply-To: <E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<488f011bf0752310c4652546546869be@flyballdogs.com>
	<E04930B3-CA93-4689-983A-7934ED3D24EC@me.com>
Message-ID: <1E631EA7-A0DF-405A-A661-C2021F5B79F8@gmail.com>



On Nov 12, 2011, at 11:24 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> 
> The 2 is the only one that supports network media servers.
> 


Not true!

I've got an original Roku and have used MyMedia and Plex to stream stuff to it. In fact, I've got a User Job (that's MythTV jargon) that uses HandBrake to put MythTV recordings into a format that works on both the Roku and my phone. The MyMedia server lets me browse the transcoded recordings directory and a RSS generator lets me subscribe to the shows in iTunes or Rhythmbox to get them to a PC or my phone. 

Thomas 

From nesius at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 00:05:49 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 00:05:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] death of silvelight, Jason and swift Linux,
 arm Linux, development
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111132048150.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <f42449d95c2494b73ba9494f871b7d11.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111131718580.12278@Dragon>
	<CAKumxByjq9JdPq2975XFDz+2MR7MZ95jmFqcTgOZ2WoNhexXSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEErW8SNTvW8+TkDjf6HQcojZg1B=2PTM5n2jLGgaTAhCQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111113193117.muaxgf9qau2sogw0@mail.dalan.us>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111132048150.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE-DTsJZWCxwgc0MsA_A9LW1b+aO5Gsdp+oVQntQRWubwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 8:49 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Nov 2011, David Alanis wrote:
>
>  I only recommended Merlins as a spot for a later date since someone else
>> suggested an Irish pub for a meeting.
>>
>
> Maple Grove is quite a drive (do we even know for sure that anyone from
> St. Cloud will show up?), but Merlins Rest is less than a 5 minute walk
> from my house, so I'll show up for that one.  ;-)
>
>
I can't make guarantees, but if I don't have an out-of-town conflict then
I'll likely be there at least.

-Rob
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 01:00:59 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:00:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I've been noticing that about 90% of what I watch comes from local 
channels that I think all have digital broadcasts.  These would be the 
local PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox stations.  It seems like a bad idea to 
pay $80/mo for DirecTV (HD) if I can get the HD on those stations for free 
over the airwaves and record the content to my computer (which is already 
connected by HDMI to the HDTV)

So I'm wondering if any of you are doing this -- can you get good signals 
over the airwaves with no antenna outside the home?

I'm also wondering about using the Ubuntu box as a DVR.  Apparently there 
is this thing called MythTV, but I don't know much about it, yet.  Is it 
possible to add DVR capability to an ordinary Ubuntu 10.10 installation?

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 14 01:09:02 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 01:09:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111140104360.14302@Dragon>

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Mike Miller wrote:

> So I'm wondering if any of you are doing this -- can you get good signals 
> over the airwaves with no antenna outside the home?

Absolutely. Antenna sitting on the DVD shelf near the window, going to a 
tiny nettop machine runninh mythbuntu.

Setting this up on mythbuntu is... a bit weird. You have to setup a 
backend for it rather than the usual frontend. This was a bit silly for me 
since I already have a different machine as the backend, and now I have to 
have a secondary backend running in the small media center machine.

Nonetheless, once set up it works perfectly.


-Yaron

--

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 02:33:00 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 02:33:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I was at Costco today and took a quick look at the netbooks.  They had 
just run out of this one, but they had been selling it for $250, which was 
$100 off of their usual price:

http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11677792&whse=BC&Ne=5000001+4000000&eCat=BC|84|56670&N=4047229%204294965745&Mo=6&No=6&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C
shortened:
http://goo.gl/4k0pm

This seems to be the same thing:

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&biw=1080&bih=933&q=Acer%C2%AE+Aspire+One+AO722+4GB&gs_upl=6195l9993l0l10473l4l4l0l3l0l0l169l169l0.1l1l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9018055126687275493&sa=X&ei=Xs_AToXsDIScgQf4jvm6Bw&ved=0CIMBEPMCMAE
shortened:
http://goo.gl/2vGwY


Acer Aspire ONE 722-0022 - Fusion 1 GHz - 11.6? - 4 GB Ram - 500 GB HDD
$368 online

September 2011 - Acer - Netbook - 11.6 inch - Windows 7 - 4 GB RAM - AMD 
CPU - 500 GB disk - 1000 MHz CPU - AMD GPU - 1366 x 768 - Touchpad - 
Widescreen - With Built-in Camera - 3.2 pound - 7 hour battery

The 11.6" Aspire ONE 722 is sensationally designed to deliver amazing HD 
visual experiences wherever you go. Anytime, anywhere connectivity plus an 
eco-friendly platform round out this netbook and make it ideal for your 
highly mobile digital lifestyle.


I'm very impressed.  A little while later I was in Target where I saw a 
Sony portable DVD player with 6 hour battery life selling for $145.  I 
couldn't see myself buying it if I could get a powerful computer with a 
better screen for only $105 more.

Mike

From rhubarbpieguy at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 07:41:54 2011
From: rhubarbpieguy at gmail.com (rhubarbpieguy at gmail.com)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:41:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4EC11AA2.4050302@gmail.com>

On 11/14/2011 01:00 AM, Mike Miller wrote:
> I've been noticing that about 90% of what I watch comes from local 
> channels that I think all have digital broadcasts.  These would be the 
> local PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox stations.  It seems like a bad idea 
> to pay $80/mo for DirecTV (HD) if I can get the HD on those stations 
> for free over the airwaves and record the content to my computer 
> (which is already connected by HDMI to the HDTV)
>
> So I'm wondering if any of you are doing this -- can you get good 
> signals over the airwaves with no antenna outside the home?
>
> I'm also wondering about using the Ubuntu box as a DVR.  Apparently 
> there is this thing called MythTV, but I don't know much about it, 
> yet.  Is it possible to add DVR capability to an ordinary Ubuntu 10.10 
> installation?
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

Yes.  An outside is best, but and indoor antenna can work well.  Antenna 
orientation can be quite important; you may have to rotate it to test 
for best reception.  A window will present the least obstruction.

I've had very good success with a variation of the coat hanger antenna:

       http://makeprojects.com/Project/Digital-TV-Coat-Hanger-Antenna/722/1

Instead of coat hangers, I bought four Radio Shack bow-tie antennas and 
clipped them to an aluminum tube.  I also built a modified Gray-Hoverman 
antenna for a friend who was considering cable:

       http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm

She wasn't keen on a geeky-looking antenna.  So I formed the antenna 
using fine-gauge wire (no reflector arms) and taped it on her window 
with transparent tape.  It's almost invisible and her reception is quite 
good.



From wdtj at yahoo.com  Mon Nov 14 07:48:38 2011
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 05:48:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <1321278518.65286.YahooMailNeo@web162003.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Digital broadcast to an inside antenna can be a bit spotty in some places.? My daughter lived in Lauderdale (just a few miles from the Shoreview antenna) and had issues getting reception.? But her apartment was in the lower level of a brick building.? 

?
--- 
Wayne Johnson,????????????             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003????????????             | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis



>________________________________
>From: Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com>
>To: TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 1:00 AM
>Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
>
>I've been noticing that about 90% of what I watch comes from local channels that I think all have digital broadcasts.? These would be the local PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox stations.? It seems like a bad idea to pay $80/mo for DirecTV (HD) if I can get the HD on those stations for free over the airwaves and record the content to my computer (which is already connected by HDMI to the HDTV)
>
>So I'm wondering if any of you are doing this -- can you get good signals over the airwaves with no antenna outside the home?
>
>I'm also wondering about using the Ubuntu box as a DVR.? Apparently there is this thing called MythTV, but I don't know much about it, yet.? Is it possible to add DVR capability to an ordinary Ubuntu 10.10 installation?
>
>Mike
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 08:12:48 2011
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:12:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
In-Reply-To: <4EC11AA2.4050302@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4EC11AA2.4050302@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO0cs4Psq0V8NmSMJAFJU_ekV0EOP8VoXv9HMb2w7WZY-A@mail.gmail.com>

Having a stucco exterior and being on the opposite side in my house from
Shoreview I had to go outside (highly recommend checking out
http://antennaweb.org/aw/welcome.aspx for any directional antenna
solutions). Some of the full power stations I could get fairly consistently
(channels 9 and 23 were always strongest with the omnidirectional indoor
antennas). I have not tried the bow tie options (which do look and sound
promising), but settled for an amplifier and Radio Shack outdoor
rectangular directional antenna for $40 and I'm happy.

I live in South Minneapolis, so I was surprised I had to invest this much
energy and time into tuning HD signals.

Hope that helps,

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 7:41 AM, <rhubarbpieguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/14/2011 01:00 AM, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> I've been noticing that about 90% of what I watch comes from local
>> channels that I think all have digital broadcasts.  These would be the
>> local PBS, ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox stations.  It seems like a bad idea to pay
>> $80/mo for DirecTV (HD) if I can get the HD on those stations for free over
>> the airwaves and record the content to my computer (which is already
>> connected by HDMI to the HDTV)
>>
>> So I'm wondering if any of you are doing this -- can you get good signals
>> over the airwaves with no antenna outside the home?
>>
>> I'm also wondering about using the Ubuntu box as a DVR.  Apparently there
>> is this thing called MythTV, but I don't know much about it, yet.  Is it
>> possible to add DVR capability to an ordinary Ubuntu 10.10 installation?
>>
>> Mike
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>>
>>
> Yes.  An outside is best, but and indoor antenna can work well.  Antenna
> orientation can be quite important; you may have to rotate it to test for
> best reception.  A window will present the least obstruction.
>
> I've had very good success with a variation of the coat hanger antenna:
>
>      http://makeprojects.com/**Project/Digital-TV-Coat-**
> Hanger-Antenna/722/1<http://makeprojects.com/Project/Digital-TV-Coat-Hanger-Antenna/722/1>
>
> Instead of coat hangers, I bought four Radio Shack bow-tie antennas and
> clipped them to an aluminum tube.  I also built a modified Gray-Hoverman
> antenna for a friend who was considering cable:
>
>      http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/**superantenna/design.htm<http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/design.htm>
>
> She wasn't keen on a geeky-looking antenna.  So I formed the antenna using
> fine-gauge wire (no reflector arms) and taped it on her window with
> transparent tape.  It's almost invisible and her reception is quite good.
>
>
>
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>
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From mjb at umn.edu  Mon Nov 14 08:16:41 2011
From: mjb at umn.edu (Michael Berkowski)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:16:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] remotely controlling ROKU
In-Reply-To: <20111113190724.GR18686@styx.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111121748240.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAOOsjE-whXNbmUxjCHGFncf4qabRx7MRQD5AfpUhmL2jGY2T1Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMh5oVrgfkn7pwZJS249A9yiP_oFFSQDpODHObSDKP9RJ0rW1A@mail.gmail.com>
	<51C4FBAF-E6C9-4A96-BC1D-DD764C775280@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111122108300.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111113052030.GP18686@styx.iucha.org> <4EBFC646.3070803@umn.edu>
	<20111113190724.GR18686@styx.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <CAOqtqDzFUkKMSPuDh7qDWS2X7knQ5pcUQaaBRNQ3=k1VNfcS_A@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Florin Iucha <florin at iucha.net> wrote:
> Turtle graphics, yay!
>
> Can I script "play $foo.mp3" or "play $band in random order"?

I'm not sure. I'm only familiar with the Roku 1 line, which (AFAIK)
didn't function as a media server.

-- 
++++++++++++++++++++
Michael Berkowski
Linux Systems Administrator and Programmer
Minitex Library Information Network / MnLINK
University of Minnesota
mjb at umn.edu
++++++++++++++++++++

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 08:19:14 2011
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:19:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO0gm5MuC=qqVhEqrAwToERfLtN4fPu5=_rToepAzyXXMA@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be up for one of these again- with a strong preference for a location
in the big cities (Minneapolis or St. Paul).

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, David <djsteinhafel at gmail.com> wrote:

> Let's do it! I called Dave and Busters yesterday on unrelated
> "business" and learned they don't have pinball machines. What's that
> all about?
>
> Wed or Fri, D&B or Keegan's works for me.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 08:23:40 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 08:23:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>

I had an Aspire One a while back with the Intel Atom processor. For
most of the time I had it, I ran Arch Linux on it with Awesome WM, and
it worked great. The only reason I sold it was because I wanted to go
from two laptops to one (I had a full sized laptop and the netbook). I
ended up buying an Asus 1215N (12.1" netbook with dual core
processor). I ended up being unhappy with the feel of the keyboard on
that one. I sold that, and now I have a Lenovo T61 that I got off of
Ebay. I'm running Debian on this, and it's awesome.

With all that said, I could see myself buying an Aspire One again and
being right back where I started. However, something like a Kindle
Fire might be a better move for me. I guess we'll see.

-Erik

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 2:33 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> I was at Costco today and took a quick look at the netbooks. ?They had just
> run out of this one, but they had been selling it for $250, which was $100
> off of their usual price:
>
> http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11677792&whse=BC&Ne=5000001+4000000&eCat=BC|84|56670&N=4047229%204294965745&Mo=6&No=6&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C
> shortened:
> http://goo.gl/4k0pm
>
> This seems to be the same thing:
>
> http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&client=ubuntu&channel=cs&biw=1080&bih=933&q=Acer%C2%AE+Aspire+One+AO722+4GB&gs_upl=6195l9993l0l10473l4l4l0l3l0l0l169l169l0.1l1l0&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9018055126687275493&sa=X&ei=Xs_AToXsDIScgQf4jvm6Bw&ved=0CIMBEPMCMAE
> shortened:
> http://goo.gl/2vGwY
>
>
> Acer Aspire ONE 722-0022 - Fusion 1 GHz - 11.6? - 4 GB Ram - 500 GB HDD
> $368 online
>
> September 2011 - Acer - Netbook - 11.6 inch - Windows 7 - 4 GB RAM - AMD CPU
> - 500 GB disk - 1000 MHz CPU - AMD GPU - 1366 x 768 - Touchpad - Widescreen
> - With Built-in Camera - 3.2 pound - 7 hour battery
>
> The 11.6" Aspire ONE 722 is sensationally designed to deliver amazing HD
> visual experiences wherever you go. Anytime, anywhere connectivity plus an
> eco-friendly platform round out this netbook and make it ideal for your
> highly mobile digital lifestyle.
>
>
> I'm very impressed. ?A little while later I was in Target where I saw a Sony
> portable DVD player with 6 hour battery life selling for $145. ?I couldn't
> see myself buying it if I could get a powerful computer with a better screen
> for only $105 more.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 13:18:39 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:18:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] finding executables in $PATH matching pattern
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

This is a simple problem that I'm sure someone here can solve.  I was 
thinking about making the Roku aliases recommended in an earlier post. 
These would all be two letters long beginning with 'r'.  I wouldn't want 
the new commands to interfer with anything that already exists, but what's 
the best way to check?

If I go to the command prompt and type r[TAB] I see a list of 174 options 
for completion, but some are directories and many consist of more than two 
characters.  It looks like "rm" is the only two-character command 
beginning with "r", but what I want is a simple command that lists all of 
the two-character commands in my path that begin with "r".  How can I get 
that list?

Mike

From florin at iucha.net  Mon Nov 14 13:23:15 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:23:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] finding executables in $PATH matching pattern
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20111114192315.GU18686@styx.iucha.org>

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 01:18:39PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
> This is a simple problem that I'm sure someone here can solve.  I was  
> thinking about making the Roku aliases recommended in an earlier post.  
> These would all be two letters long beginning with 'r'.  I wouldn't want  
> the new commands to interfer with anything that already exists, but 
> what's the best way to check?
>
> If I go to the command prompt and type r[TAB] I see a list of 174 options 
> for completion, but some are directories and many consist of more than 
> two characters.  It looks like "rm" is the only two-character command  
> beginning with "r", but what I want is a simple command that lists all of 
> the two-character commands in my path that begin with "r".  How can I get 
> that list?

   for pp in `echo $PATH | tr ":" "\n"`; do ls $pp | grep '^r.\>' ; done

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 14:02:08 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:02:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] finding executables in $PATH matching pattern
In-Reply-To: <20111114192315.GU18686@styx.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111114192315.GU18686@styx.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141353340.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 01:18:39PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> This is a simple problem that I'm sure someone here can solve.  I was 
>> thinking about making the Roku aliases recommended in an earlier post. 
>> These would all be two letters long beginning with 'r'.  I wouldn't 
>> want the new commands to interfer with anything that already exists, 
>> but what's the best way to check?
>>
>> If I go to the command prompt and type r[TAB] I see a list of 174 
>> options for completion, but some are directories and many consist of 
>> more than two characters.  It looks like "rm" is the only two-character 
>> command beginning with "r", but what I want is a simple command that 
>> lists all of the two-character commands in my path that begin with "r". 
>> How can I get that list?
>
>   for pp in `echo $PATH | tr ":" "\n"`; do ls $pp | grep '^r.\>' ; done


There has to be a better way!  ;-)  I could do it with a for loop but was 
hoping for something more direct, maybe using "find".

Also, that doesn't guarantee that the file is executable.  It would also 
be good to see the path to the file instead of just the filename.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 14:11:54 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:11:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] finding executables in $PATH matching pattern
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141353340.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111114192315.GU18686@styx.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141353340.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141404590.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Florin Iucha wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 01:18:39PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>> 
>>> This is a simple problem that I'm sure someone here can solve.  I was 
>>> thinking about making the Roku aliases recommended in an earlier post. 
>>> These would all be two letters long beginning with 'r'.  I wouldn't 
>>> want the new commands to interfer with anything that already exists, 
>>> but what's the best way to check?
>>> 
>>> If I go to the command prompt and type r[TAB] I see a list of 174 
>>> options for completion, but some are directories and many consist of 
>>> more than two characters.  It looks like "rm" is the only 
>>> two-character command beginning with "r", but what I want is a simple 
>>> command that lists all of the two-character commands in my path that 
>>> begin with "r". How can I get that list?
>>
>>   for pp in `echo $PATH | tr ":" "\n"`; do ls $pp | grep '^r.\>' ; done
>
>
> There has to be a better way!  ;-)  I could do it with a for loop but 
> was hoping for something more direct, maybe using "find".
>
> Also, that doesn't guarantee that the file is executable.  It would also 
> be good to see the path to the file instead of just the filename.

Example:

$ for DIR in $(echo $PATH | tr : '\n') ; do find "$DIR" -name 'r?' -type f -executable ; done
/bin/rm

But I was hoping for something more concise.

By the way, backticks are now deprecated in Bash and we are supposed to 
use $() instead.  It is actually much better because you can use nesting.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 14:59:38 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:59:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] finding executables in $PATH matching pattern
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141404590.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111114192315.GU18686@styx.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141353340.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141404590.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141447110.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Mike Miller wrote:

> Example:
>
> $ for DIR in $(echo $PATH | tr : '\n') ; do find "$DIR" -name 'r?' -type f -executable ; done
> /bin/rm
>
> But I was hoping for something more concise.


This works without the for loop:

$ find $(echo $PATH | tr : '\n') -name 'r?' -type f -executable
/bin/rm

I'm not sure how it fares if there is a space in a path -- it might depend 
on ${IFS}.

Mike

From florin at iucha.net  Mon Nov 14 15:00:52 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:00:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] finding executables in $PATH matching pattern
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141404590.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111114192315.GU18686@styx.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141353340.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141404590.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20111114210051.GV18686@styx.iucha.org>

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 02:11:54PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>> If I go to the command prompt and type r[TAB] I see a list of 174  
>>>> options for completion, but some are directories and many consist 
>>>> of more than two characters.  It looks like "rm" is the only  
>>>> two-character command beginning with "r", but what I want is a 
>>>> simple command that lists all of the two-character commands in my 
>>>> path that begin with "r". How can I get that list?
>>>
>>>   for pp in `echo $PATH | tr ":" "\n"`; do ls $pp | grep '^r.\>' ; done
>>
>> There has to be a better way!  ;-)  I could do it with a for loop but  
>> was hoping for something more direct, maybe using "find".
>>
>> Also, that doesn't guarantee that the file is executable.  It would 
>> also be good to see the path to the file instead of just the filename.
>
> Example:
>
> $ for DIR in $(echo $PATH | tr : '\n') ; do find "$DIR" -name 'r?' -type f -executable ; done
> /bin/rm
>
> But I was hoping for something more concise.

   find $(echo $PATH | tr : '\n') -name 'r?' -type f -executable

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 14 15:35:52 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 15:35:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] finding executables in $PATH matching pattern
In-Reply-To: <20111114210051.GV18686@styx.iucha.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141218140.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111114192315.GU18686@styx.iucha.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141353340.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141404590.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<20111114210051.GV18686@styx.iucha.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111141529500.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 14 Nov 2011, Florin Iucha wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 02:11:54PM -0600, Mike Miller wrote:
>>>>> If I go to the command prompt and type r[TAB] I see a list of 174
>>>>> options for completion, but some are directories and many consist
>>>>> of more than two characters.  It looks like "rm" is the only
>>>>> two-character command beginning with "r", but what I want is a
>>>>> simple command that lists all of the two-character commands in my
>>>>> path that begin with "r". How can I get that list?
>>>>
>>>>   for pp in `echo $PATH | tr ":" "\n"`; do ls $pp | grep '^r.\>' ; done
>>>
>>> There has to be a better way!  ;-)  I could do it with a for loop but
>>> was hoping for something more direct, maybe using "find".
>>>
>>> Also, that doesn't guarantee that the file is executable.  It would
>>> also be good to see the path to the file instead of just the filename.
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> $ for DIR in $(echo $PATH | tr : '\n') ; do find "$DIR" -name 'r?' -type f -executable ; done
>> /bin/rm
>>
>> But I was hoping for something more concise.
>
>   find $(echo $PATH | tr : '\n') -name 'r?' -type f -executable


Ha!  I beat you to it by 1 minute.  ;-)

Mike

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Nov 15 00:01:15 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 00:01:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Pear OS
Message-ID: <20111115000115.2be416d884cdbc4863bf25a3@jasonhsu.com>

I just read on DistroWatch that there's a new Linux distro called Pear OS (http://www.pear-os-linux.fr/).  The logo is a pear with a bite taken out of it.  (Sound familiar?)

What I find amusing is the fact that Nickelodeon sitcoms feature Pear products that look just like Apple products.  If you've ever watched TV shows like _Zoey 101_, _iCarly_, _Drake and Josh_, or _Victorious_, you'll see computers, MP3 players, and other products with pear symbols on them.  This isn't the only example of Nickelodeon shows parodying products.  Other examples include SkyMall -> SkyStore, Dairy Queen -> Freezy Queen, Cheesecake Factory -> Cheesecake Warehouse, and Gorilla Glue -> Grizzly Glue.

Thus, the Pear OS is an example of life imitating art.  I can't help but wonder if this is a coincidence or if the person who started Pear OS is a fan of Nickelodeon sitcoms.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Nov 15 01:36:16 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 01:36:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Pear OS
In-Reply-To: <20111115000115.2be416d884cdbc4863bf25a3@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111115000115.2be416d884cdbc4863bf25a3@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111150135500.27214@Dragon>

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:

> What I find amusing is the fact that Nickelodeon sitcoms feature Pear 
> products that look just like Apple products.  If you've ever watched TV 
> shows like _Zoey 101_, _iCarly_, _Drake and Josh_, or _Victorious_,

Honestly I'd hope that nobody would ever admit to have watching those 
shows.


-Yaron

--

From 13.finn at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 07:08:12 2011
From: 13.finn at gmail.com (Patrick "Finn" Robins)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 07:08:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Pear OS
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111150135500.27214@Dragon>
References: <20111115000115.2be416d884cdbc4863bf25a3@jasonhsu.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111150135500.27214@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CA+=GO=VhP-W=j8tNCt1P9+mvN4Mt2-BydpA8yWY65hV2bxwmqg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 01:36, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Jason Hsu wrote:
>
>  What I find amusing is the fact that Nickelodeon sitcoms feature Pear
>> products that look just like Apple products.  If you've ever watched TV
>> shows like _Zoey 101_, _iCarly_, _Drake and Josh_, or _Victorious_,
>>
>
> Honestly I'd hope that nobody would ever admit to have watching those
> shows.
>
>
> -Yaron
>
>
If you have children of almost any age you will have seen at least part of
one of them. They are very prevalent in the kids culture. The time to be
worried is when the kids leave the room and you don't turn off the babble
box or at least change the channel. ;-)

> --
>
> Patrick "Finn" Robins

Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter
and those who matter don't mind.

  - Dr. Seuss
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From kcbnac at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 11:32:07 2011
From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:32:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>

Just be careful - the 1GHz CPU is a single-core, I would probably look
for one with the E-350 (1.6GHz dual-core) - Microcenter is offering a
15" model for $250 this week.  (Limit 1 per customer)

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 14:35:55 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:35:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>

The one at Costco has the AMD Dual-Core C-60 1.0GHz, or so says their
web page.  It looks like I'll be able to pick one up tomorrow.  It has
no DVD/CD drive, but I'm planning to use it as a DVD player for my
daughter by mounting ISOs stored on the HDD or USB drives.

But ... I'll have to look at the one at Micro Center.  I was there
last night and didn't happen to see it, but I wasn't looking.  If it's
15" and sells for $250, it has to be lacking *something*.  Maybe this
is the one you were thinking of, but for $299:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0373457

Is that it?

That is a phenomenal deal.  The HDD is about 1/3 smaller, but it has
DVD burner.  It must be a faster processor, but the battery life is
about 1/3 less.  It has a bigger screen, but the resolution is the
same.  It is bigger, but it weighs more.

So many decisions.  But who can't be happy when computers are this
cheap and we can remember when computers this powerful cost millions
of dollars.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 15:18:00 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 15:18:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALuKVvv-0CmcjxG17Niy5BUmJYN5dDHZKEV9g7gUMxaPfxns_Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe this is the one you were thinking of, but for $299:
>
> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0373457
>
> Is that it?

Or maybe this is it:

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0373456

That has 1/2 the RAM and 1/2 the HDD of the one I was considering.

Mike

From jjensen at apache.org  Tue Nov 15 20:20:20 2011
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:20:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBxAat5sCpOexgkDFx3+GkedkyPoMx5rmEg0VLjQj2-NRA@mail.gmail.com>

I have an antenna in my attic, receives quite well.  Depending, you
may need a small powered antenna booster.  Calc your db loss with the
splitters to determine if and how much is the needed db boost.

I've been running MythTV on Fedora for past few years.  I bought the
HDHomeRun from Silicon Dust for the tuner - great product.

My mom wanted a DVR as well, and after looking at Tivo, et al, I
picked up a Atom based little system from General Nano, installed
Windows 7 on it to use the Media Center (free license from my company!
:-), and again used the HDHomeRun.  Another good setup, but I know you
don't want the Windoze bit... (she couldn't deal with the occasional
MythTV flakiness - it's truly a tinkerer's app, but is getting better
at that part).


On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been noticing that about 90% of what I watch comes from local channels
> that I think all have digital broadcasts. ?These would be the local PBS,
> ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox stations. ?It seems like a bad idea to pay $80/mo for
> DirecTV (HD) if I can get the HD on those stations for free over the
> airwaves and record the content to my computer (which is already connected
> by HDMI to the HDTV)
>
> So I'm wondering if any of you are doing this -- can you get good signals
> over the airwaves with no antenna outside the home?
>
> I'm also wondering about using the Ubuntu box as a DVR. ?Apparently there is
> this thing called MythTV, but I don't know much about it, yet. ?Is it
> possible to add DVR capability to an ordinary Ubuntu 10.10 installation?
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From kcbnac at gmail.com  Tue Nov 15 21:15:35 2011
From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman)
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 21:15:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <CALuKVvv-0CmcjxG17Niy5BUmJYN5dDHZKEV9g7gUMxaPfxns_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALuKVvv-0CmcjxG17Niy5BUmJYN5dDHZKEV9g7gUMxaPfxns_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMfBFyKqOcEFcC6FhpZZV+vRkuxrB4M0L+2Z50zLj4_fXOjBdw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes Mike, that was the one.  I thought it was the 1.6GHz E-350, but it
is the 1.3GHz E-300.  I must've been thinking of a previous sale.  But
still, dual-core is better than single-core.

Choices, choices!

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:35 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Maybe this is the one you were thinking of, but for $299:
>>
>> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0373457
>>
>> Is that it?
>
> Or maybe this is it:
>
> http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0373456
>
> That has 1/2 the RAM and 1/2 the HDD of the one I was considering.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Wed Nov 16 01:07:33 2011
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:07:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Open Q & Q at Penguins Unbound Meeting November 19th
	Meeting
Message-ID: <4EC36135.5040003@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday November 19th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting

Will be an open Q&A session, unless a speaker comes forward.

Thanks.

Hope to see you there.

==>brian.

*** STREAMING ***
If you can't make it you can use this url to stream the meeting.
mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800

You should be able to connect with either:
mplayer mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800
or
vlc http://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800

From john.meier at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 08:13:41 2011
From: john.meier at gmail.com (John Meier)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:13:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxAat5sCpOexgkDFx3+GkedkyPoMx5rmEg0VLjQj2-NRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAKumxBxAat5sCpOexgkDFx3+GkedkyPoMx5rmEg0VLjQj2-NRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL0Bt08b2H2kwyLCysw7HdfcP7cJP9zT1W+Z5GDS3y5=kubj0w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:20 PM, Jeff Jensen <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:

> I have an antenna in my attic, receives quite well.  Depending, you
> may need a small powered antenna booster.  Calc your db loss with the
> splitters to determine if and how much is the needed db boost.
>
> I've been running MythTV on Fedora for past few years.  I bought the
> HDHomeRun from Silicon Dust for the tuner - great product.
>
>

+1 for the HDhomerun.    Love that little box!

I put an antenna on my DirectTv mast (after taking the dish off), used an
iPhone app to check signal strength coming out of the HDHomerun and have
been enjoying OTA tv for the last 2 years!   I really like 5.3 - "MeTV" :)



>
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 1:00 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've been noticing that about 90% of what I watch comes from local
> channels
> > that I think all have digital broadcasts.  These would be the local PBS,
> > ABC, CBS, NBC and Fox stations.  It seems like a bad idea to pay $80/mo
> for
> > DirecTV (HD) if I can get the HD on those stations for free over the
> > airwaves and record the content to my computer (which is already
> connected
> > by HDMI to the HDTV)
> >
> > So I'm wondering if any of you are doing this -- can you get good signals
> > over the airwaves with no antenna outside the home?
> >
> > I'm also wondering about using the Ubuntu box as a DVR.  Apparently
> there is
> > this thing called MythTV, but I don't know much about it, yet.  Is it
> > possible to add DVR capability to an ordinary Ubuntu 10.10 installation?
> >
> > Mike
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Wed Nov 16 10:18:48 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:18:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111116101848.b9c0160122b17547c8c292d7@jasonhsu.com>

On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:35:55 -0600
Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> The one at Costco has the AMD Dual-Core C-60 1.0GHz, or so says their
> web page.  It looks like I'll be able to pick one up tomorrow.  It has
> no DVD/CD drive, but I'm planning to use it as a DVD player for my
> daughter by mounting ISOs stored on the HDD or USB drives.
> 
How do you install an OS without an optical drive?  While I have installed used USB drives, I don't think Windows comes on USB drives.  I remember that Windows 98 and XP came on CDs (95 had floppies), and I think Vista and 7 use DVDs.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Nov 16 10:27:45 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:27:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <20111116101848.b9c0160122b17547c8c292d7@jasonhsu.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111116101848.b9c0160122b17547c8c292d7@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <C7C66269-F04B-46AA-AAE3-CFF561938108@me.com>

The newest versions of 7 (download) support USB booting, supposedly, and 8 probably will only be USB.


On Nov 16, 2011, at 10:18 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:35:55 -0600
> Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The one at Costco has the AMD Dual-Core C-60 1.0GHz, or so says their
>> web page.  It looks like I'll be able to pick one up tomorrow.  It has
>> no DVD/CD drive, but I'm planning to use it as a DVD player for my
>> daughter by mounting ISOs stored on the HDD or USB drives.
>> 
> How do you install an OS without an optical drive?  While I have installed used USB drives, I don't think Windows comes on USB drives.  I remember that Windows 98 and XP came on CDs (95 had floppies), and I think Vista and 7 use DVDs.
> 
> -- 
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From admin at lctn.org  Wed Nov 16 10:41:43 2011
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:41:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Internet TV
Message-ID: <4EC3E7C7.6060403@lctn.org>

  I have been following the MythTV thread. I too have been a happy 
MythTV fan for a few years now.

I bought a new house and am exploring options for TV. We currently 
stream Netflix through the wii and it works very well. Wondering if 
anyone knows of live TV streaming that would rival cable or dish? I 
would much prefer to go that route if there were real-time programming 
available.

Did a little bit of research on it last night, but didn't find anything 
I felt could replace cable.


Raymond

From canito at dalan.us  Wed Nov 16 11:41:53 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:41:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Internet TV
In-Reply-To: <4EC3E7C7.6060403@lctn.org>
References: <4EC3E7C7.6060403@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <20111116114153.x4r349xlwwm8gs0c@mail.dalan.us>

Quoting Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org>:

>  I have been following the MythTV thread. I too have been a happy
> MythTV fan for a few years now.
>
> I bought a new house and am exploring options for TV. We currently
> stream Netflix through the wii and it works very well. Wondering if
> anyone knows of live TV streaming that would rival cable or dish? I
> would much prefer to go that route if there were real-time programming
> available.
>
> Did a little bit of research on it last night, but didn't find anything
> I felt could replace cable.
>
>
> Raymond
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

A side from the information that has already been discussed in Mike's  
thread about Netflix's supporting hardware. In which I talk about  
streaming media.

There is no Internet TV rivaling cable.

----------------------------------------------------------------
This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Nov 16 11:52:40 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:52:40 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco
In-Reply-To: <C7C66269-F04B-46AA-AAE3-CFF561938108@me.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140223400.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CANNReEHtf00V2V=C93KPsqHUSjrGuo1y7H_E+F1HyoSTn293xA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAMfBFyJzzs7djzC3z9gf6WxUCXeQWavzxPL3L=_qTRVmHz-Jrg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CALuKVvsCSkd_3uGyWUfD5bvknDZGah3JggFHaEdTYa-3HrmdUQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<20111116101848.b9c0160122b17547c8c292d7@jasonhsu.com>
	<C7C66269-F04B-46AA-AAE3-CFF561938108@me.com>
Message-ID: <671410355-1321465963-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-759124565-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>

Other options:
USB attached drive, optical or other
PXE boot

Not sure about windows and pxe but most systems these days will support usb attached boot sources be it hdd, optical, flash, floppy, etc


-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:27:45 
To: TCLUG Mailing List<tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Acer Aspire ONE *was* only $250 at Costco

The newest versions of 7 (download) support USB booting, supposedly, and 8 probably will only be USB.


On Nov 16, 2011, at 10:18 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:35:55 -0600
> Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> The one at Costco has the AMD Dual-Core C-60 1.0GHz, or so says their
>> web page.  It looks like I'll be able to pick one up tomorrow.  It has
>> no DVD/CD drive, but I'm planning to use it as a DVD player for my
>> daughter by mounting ISOs stored on the HDD or USB drives.
>> 
> How do you install an OS without an optical drive?  While I have installed used USB drives, I don't think Windows comes on USB drives.  I remember that Windows 98 and XP came on CDs (95 had floppies), and I think Vista and 7 use DVDs.
> 
> -- 
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From ubusum at ymail.com  Wed Nov 16 13:20:42 2011
From: ubusum at ymail.com (Ubu Sumner)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:20:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] MythTV and local digital channels
In-Reply-To: <CAL0Bt08b2H2kwyLCysw7HdfcP7cJP9zT1W+Z5GDS3y5=kubj0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111140054230.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<CAKumxBxAat5sCpOexgkDFx3+GkedkyPoMx5rmEg0VLjQj2-NRA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAL0Bt08b2H2kwyLCysw7HdfcP7cJP9zT1W+Z5GDS3y5=kubj0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321471242.94442.YahooMailNeo@web162108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

There was an article about this last Friday in the Star & Tribune. Interesting statistics for the Twin Cities:


Subchannels could play a significant role in the Twin Cities because 
333,000 households have no interest in coughing up $100 a month for 
cable or satellite. That number represents 19 percent of the population, the highest share for any major metro in the United States. (The 
average "antenna only" number in the other top 15 U.S. markets is 9 
percent.)
That's up slightly compared with the pre-digital era. But that group 
could get larger as more local viewers cut the cord on their cable and 
discover options on free TV. According to Tom Glynn, KSTP-TV's research 
director, about 54 percent of Twin Cities households subscribe to cable 
and 28 percent use a satellite dish.
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From ubusum at ymail.com  Wed Nov 16 13:27:19 2011
From: ubusum at ymail.com (Ubu Sumner)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:27:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Google Wi-Fi Privacy Fix, Explained
Message-ID: <1321471639.30568.YahooMailNeo@web162109.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Workaround stops Google from storing your network's location in its database of Wi-Fi access points, but there's a naming catch.
By Thomas Claburn InformationWeek

http://informationweek.com/news/security/privacy/231903111

_nomap

( append this to the end of your SSID )

!
Your thoughts about this?
Does this apply to any network?
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From admin at lctn.org  Wed Nov 16 13:58:35 2011
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:58:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
Message-ID: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>

  I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their Internet 
traffic. What Open Source solutions are people using that can log all 
Internet traffic? Reporting would be adequate, but being able to add 
control (QOS, Content Filtering, etc...)measures would great. They use a 
Sonic for a firewall, just trying to save them money on subscriptions.

Raymond

From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com  Wed Nov 16 14:01:47 2011
From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:01:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <0000233319@penguinpackets.com>

Ntop?  

http://www.ntop.org/products/ntop/  

Kelly  
>  Wed Nov 16 2011 01:58:35 PM CST from  "Raymond Norton" <admin at lctn.org> 
>Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
>
>  
> I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their Internet 
> traffic. What Open Source solutions are people using that can log all 
> Internet traffic? Reporting would be adequate, but being able to add 
> control (QOS, Content Filtering, etc...)measures would great. They use a 
> Sonic for a firewall, just trying to save them money on subscriptions.
> 
> Raymond
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
>
>
>  

  

?
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 16 15:53:18 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:53:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Raymond Norton wrote:

> I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their Internet traffic.

Somewhat off-topic and a SUPER long-shot, but...

Almost (oh GOD) 20 years ago I was working for an ISP, we'd just got a new 
machine to be a dedicated web server because that whole internet thing was 
taking off, and the president of the company claimed he was getting bad 
response times. We tried telling him that if you're going to click Refresh 
20 times a second you MIGHT get some pages not loading but he wouldn't 
listen.

So we called the people who made the machine. A little outfit by the name 
of SGI.

They came in with one of their computers running their network analysis 
program. The thing sat on our network and gave a real-time graph of what 
protocols were using what bandwidth.

Now nevermind that the thing was beautiful and that you could use a camera 
to rotate the graph in 3D using actual hand gestures. It was incredibly 
USEFUL. To this day I've not seen an easy (i.e., foss) way to get 
real-time network traffic graphs like that. Granted, I haven't looked in a 
while, but hey.

Anyone know something like that?


If anyone's interested, it didn't show anything wrong with our webserver, 
but it DID show that smb was eating up the network. The SGI people and I 
agreed that this had nothing at all to do with anything, but in the finest 
Dilbert tradition it gave us something to point out to the PHB and say 
"Here you go, yell at the NT admin."


-Yaron

--

From nesius at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 15:58:28 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:58:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE8o_yWCNWhEvj0bS7LP4SJ3yR5C_xvHzJQ0i8oAEtTrjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Raymond Norton wrote:

 I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their Internet traffic.
>

I've seen this used in production environments.

http://cricket.sourceforge.net/

-Rob
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From robert at hutman.net  Wed Nov 16 15:58:24 2011
From: robert at hutman.net (Robert Radtke)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:58:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CAOJEbNbr8X0CzGmqJ26mygNBd51WiRwXngH68z+uyb9UO4wZoQ@mail.gmail.com>

ntop would be a good tool for the job - http://www.ntop.org/products/ntop/


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Raymond Norton wrote:
>
>  I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their Internet
>> traffic.
>>
>
> Somewhat off-topic and a SUPER long-shot, but...
>
> Almost (oh GOD) 20 years ago I was working for an ISP, we'd just got a new
> machine to be a dedicated web server because that whole internet thing was
> taking off, and the president of the company claimed he was getting bad
> response times. We tried telling him that if you're going to click Refresh
> 20 times a second you MIGHT get some pages not loading but he wouldn't
> listen.
>
> So we called the people who made the machine. A little outfit by the name
> of SGI.
>
> They came in with one of their computers running their network analysis
> program. The thing sat on our network and gave a real-time graph of what
> protocols were using what bandwidth.
>
> Now nevermind that the thing was beautiful and that you could use a camera
> to rotate the graph in 3D using actual hand gestures. It was incredibly
> USEFUL. To this day I've not seen an easy (i.e., foss) way to get real-time
> network traffic graphs like that. Granted, I haven't looked in a while, but
> hey.
>
> Anyone know something like that?
>
>
> If anyone's interested, it didn't show anything wrong with our webserver,
> but it DID show that smb was eating up the network. The SGI people and I
> agreed that this had nothing at all to do with anything, but in the finest
> Dilbert tradition it gave us something to point out to the PHB and say
> "Here you go, yell at the NT admin."
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>



-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Radtke                             Hutman Inc
robert at hutman.net           1710 N. Douglas Dr. #285
612.843.1400                   Minneapolis, MN 55422
#!/hutman~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Nov 16 17:42:03 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:42:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <CAOOsjE8o_yWCNWhEvj0bS7LP4SJ3yR5C_xvHzJQ0i8oAEtTrjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
	<CAOOsjE8o_yWCNWhEvj0bS7LP4SJ3yR5C_xvHzJQ0i8oAEtTrjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321486923.22463.3.camel@sysadmin3a>



On Wed, 2011-11-16 at 15:58 -0600, Robert Nesius wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Raymond Norton wrote:
> 
>         I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their
>         Internet traffic.
> 
> I've seen this used in production environments. 
>  
> http://cricket.sourceforge.net/
> 
> -Rob

Is there anything Cricket can do that Cacti can't? It looks like it is
Cacti minus a lot of functionality and polish

My opinion was reached after about 2 minutes of reading the provided
cricket website.


From robert at hutman.net  Wed Nov 16 17:47:47 2011
From: robert at hutman.net (Robert Radtke)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:47:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <1321486923.22463.3.camel@sysadmin3a>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
	<CAOOsjE8o_yWCNWhEvj0bS7LP4SJ3yR5C_xvHzJQ0i8oAEtTrjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321486923.22463.3.camel@sysadmin3a>
Message-ID: <CAOJEbNY4LOdaepg-_vMqdOex5ur4fUDUh2_+m1naLpUbD0pnGg@mail.gmail.com>

I didn't look that closely - but it appears that cricket does packet
capture and creates graphs based on that. Cacti collects data from via SNMP
and other sources but doesn't really inspect packets on your network.



>
> Is there anything Cricket can do that Cacti can't? It looks like it is
> Cacti minus a lot of functionality and polish
>
> My opinion was reached after about 2 minutes of reading the provided
> cricket website.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Robert Radtke                             Hutman Inc
robert at hutman.net           1710 N. Douglas Dr. #285
612.843.1400                   Minneapolis, MN 55422
#!/hutman~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Wed Nov 16 19:53:45 2011
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:53:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Google Wi-Fi Privacy Fix, Explained
In-Reply-To: <1321471639.30568.YahooMailNeo@web162109.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1321471639.30568.YahooMailNeo@web162109.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO2WiOP-AmZbN6LdfqKTUTjTs_wbVQmchzqhuhLdUWmcaA@mail.gmail.com>

Turn off ESSID broadcast on the access point- that should also work
(in theory, unless they are ubber promiscuous with their scanning).

--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Ubu Sumner <ubusum at ymail.com> wrote:
>
> Workaround stops Google from storing your network's location in its database of Wi-Fi access points, but there's a naming catch.
> By Thomas Claburn InformationWeek
> http://informationweek.com/news/security/privacy/231903111
> _nomap
>
> ( append this to the end of your SSID )
> !
> Your thoughts about this?
> Does this apply to any network?
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 16 22:29:06 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 22:29:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Google Wi-Fi Privacy Fix, Explained
In-Reply-To: <1321471639.30568.YahooMailNeo@web162109.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1321471639.30568.YahooMailNeo@web162109.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111162223080.2237@Dragon>


On Wed, 16 Nov 2011, Ubu Sumner wrote:

> Workaround stops Google from storing your network's location in its database

I honestly don't care. If I did I'd have turned off the SSID broadcast.

I did a small wardrive -- using my cellphone -- around my neighbourhood. I 
ran a 2 mile loop (so one mile scanned area), a lot of which is open field 
and none of which is apartments. I found like 50+ wifi networks. 10 of 
which were actually open/passwordless. A few appeared to be street lamps.

Plenty of wardriving websites already have this info and integrate it with 
google maps, so I really don't think cutting it out of Google's database 
is going to do anything.





-Yaron

--

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Thu Nov 17 07:35:57 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 07:35:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Google Wi-Fi Privacy Fix, Explained
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111162223080.2237@Dragon>
References: <1321471639.30568.YahooMailNeo@web162109.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111162223080.2237@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9DqRTm-NPOW9AtoV5YYTuhooq6srd_aCxV=fqBfmM4zjQ@mail.gmail.com>

doesn't apply to me, thought i, mine's encrypted.  then i noticed google
maps keeps showing my location where i used to live.  then i remembered
this thread.  aha.
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov 17 09:27:07 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:27:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Google Wi-Fi Privacy Fix, Explained
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9DqRTm-NPOW9AtoV5YYTuhooq6srd_aCxV=fqBfmM4zjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1321471639.30568.YahooMailNeo@web162109.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111162223080.2237@Dragon>
	<CAD+dB9DqRTm-NPOW9AtoV5YYTuhooq6srd_aCxV=fqBfmM4zjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1FC4D7EB-0207-47A2-8915-DD46AAE16E8E@me.com>

That isn't necc. their wardriving... but could be combining your Global IP coordinates with your cell's GPS and your SSID... 

I use the street address on mine, plus encryption.


On Nov 17, 2011, at 7:35 AM, gregrwm wrote:

> doesn't apply to me, thought i, mine's encrypted.  then i noticed google maps keeps showing my location where i used to live.  then i remembered this thread.  aha.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From nesius at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 09:48:49 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:48:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <CAOJEbNY4LOdaepg-_vMqdOex5ur4fUDUh2_+m1naLpUbD0pnGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
	<CAOOsjE8o_yWCNWhEvj0bS7LP4SJ3yR5C_xvHzJQ0i8oAEtTrjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321486923.22463.3.camel@sysadmin3a>
	<CAOJEbNY4LOdaepg-_vMqdOex5ur4fUDUh2_+m1naLpUbD0pnGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE8Znin-bGRM7+0iMs+G+S6_-UHfhbvTHTWhQVrk2ot1=w@mail.gmail.com>

I have not installed nor administered either service.  I have hit cricket
web pages to profile some behaviors - but the network admin team had put
that in place.  I think Robert's right - cricket will get you slightly
closer to the raw firehose, but it may be that switches can report all of
the meta-data you care about for traffic analysis via SNMP, making cacti a
good (better?) way to go.

Thanks to the question below I'm wanting to carve some time out and play
with both and compare. :)

-Rob


On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Robert Radtke <robert at hutman.net> wrote:

> I didn't look that closely - but it appears that cricket does packet
> capture and creates graphs based on that. Cacti collects data from via SNMP
> and other sources but doesn't really inspect packets on your network.
>
>
>
>>
>> Is there anything Cricket can do that Cacti can't? It looks like it is
>> Cacti minus a lot of functionality and polish
>>
>> My opinion was reached after about 2 minutes of reading the provided
>> cricket website.
>>
>>
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Thu Nov 17 10:28:08 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 10:28:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <CAOOsjE8Znin-bGRM7+0iMs+G+S6_-UHfhbvTHTWhQVrk2ot1=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111161547160.2237@Dragon>
	<CAOOsjE8o_yWCNWhEvj0bS7LP4SJ3yR5C_xvHzJQ0i8oAEtTrjg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1321486923.22463.3.camel@sysadmin3a>
	<CAOJEbNY4LOdaepg-_vMqdOex5ur4fUDUh2_+m1naLpUbD0pnGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE8Znin-bGRM7+0iMs+G+S6_-UHfhbvTHTWhQVrk2ot1=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1321547288.28828.60.camel@sysadmin3a>

Administratoring (new word?) several Cacti servers monitoring thousands
of devices I would just say Cacti is pretty awesome. It's not flawless
but with its plugin support people have extended its functionality quite
a bit more. It could be made to identify various types of traffic based
on application but it would also depend on how it gets its data in the
first place. It is not really designed for that as much. Something like
the OP's request I think would be better served with an ntop or similar
app, especially as ntop apparently also supports sflow/netflow which
would be even more ideal assuming your routers support sflow/netflow
exporting. Netflow Analyzer works well but would be spendy if you're
just looking to troubleshoot some problems when they occur.

That being said I highly recommend running Cacti (or similar) for
general use on any network you deem important.

Few examples of Cacti plugins I've found useful and cool are Weathermap,
Realtime Graph Viewer, Thresholds, Aggregate Graph Maker.... I am sure
there are more but those come to mind quickly.

On Thu, 2011-11-17 at 09:48 -0600, Robert Nesius wrote:

> I have not installed nor administered either service.  I have hit
> cricket web pages to profile some behaviors - but the network admin
> team had put that in place.  I think Robert's right - cricket will get
> you slightly closer to the raw firehose, but it may be that switches
> can report all of the meta-data you care about for traffic analysis
> via SNMP, making cacti a good (better?) way to go.   
> 
> Thanks to the question below I'm wanting to carve some time out and
> play with both and compare. :) 
> 
> -Rob
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:47 PM, Robert Radtke <robert at hutman.net>
> wrote:
> 
>         I didn't look that closely - but it appears that cricket does
>         packet capture and creates graphs based on that. Cacti
>         collects data from via SNMP and other sources but doesn't
>         really inspect packets on your network. 
>         
>         
>         
>         
>                 
>                 
>                 
>                 
>                 Is there anything Cricket can do that Cacti can't? It
>                 looks like it is
>                 Cacti minus a lot of functionality and polish
>                 
>                 My opinion was reached after about 2 minutes of
>                 reading the provided
>                 cricket website.
>                 
>                 
>                 
>                 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From jglouisjr at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 11:26:14 2011
From: jglouisjr at gmail.com (James Louis)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 11:26:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <CANsMYOU_3Z960KQfyF0C0j1P__zqZ5zY-absGgOvTzjVLfA9XA@mail.gmail.com>

ClearOS might work

On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:

>  I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their Internet
> traffic. What Open Source solutions are people using that can log all
> Internet traffic? Reporting would be adequate, but being able to add
> control (QOS, Content Filtering, etc...)measures would great. They use a
> Sonic for a firewall, just trying to save them money on subscriptions.
>
> Raymond
> ______________________________**_________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>



-- 
To be is to do = Immanuel Kant
To do is to be = Descartes.
Do be do be do = Frank Sinatra
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From tlunde at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 14:53:18 2011
From: tlunde at gmail.com (T L)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:53:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Anyone have a broken ink jet printer that is near the
	U or Edina?
Message-ID: <CAE0VmCxb6pzWUzQHRSUcdfQ=DN5h0qb0v5A_2ujMH=6Vzk5xjg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello -

I have a friend who is taking a robotics class at the U.  She's in
need of parts for a class project and wrote:

Anyone have a broken printer they would be willing to give me? There
is a part in it I need for my robot.  Specifically, I need the
track/belt that moves back and forth depositing the ink. I think this
would work for my moving arm.


I switched to laser printers a while back, but I'll get that someone
on this list would like to get a little space back in the
basement/garage.

Can anyone help?

Thanks!
Thomas

From cwgriesel at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 14:57:45 2011
From: cwgriesel at gmail.com (Curtis Griesel)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:57:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Anyone have a broken ink jet printer that is near
 the U or Edina?
In-Reply-To: <CAE0VmCxb6pzWUzQHRSUcdfQ=DN5h0qb0v5A_2ujMH=6Vzk5xjg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAE0VmCxb6pzWUzQHRSUcdfQ=DN5h0qb0v5A_2ujMH=6Vzk5xjg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEcQE8Mb6Dm_2aBaGTAosFvZz+EJ=8FXe7n8iAtg1yVGhMRWfQ@mail.gmail.com>

If anyone needs old inkjet printers, I have about a dozen or so in
Northeast Minneapolis they the are welcome to pick up.  Just email me.

Curtis

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 2:53 PM, T L <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello -
>
> I have a friend who is taking a robotics class at the U.  She's in
> need of parts for a class project and wrote:
>
> Anyone have a broken printer they would be willing to give me? There
> is a part in it I need for my robot.  Specifically, I need the
> track/belt that moves back and forth depositing the ink. I think this
> would work for my moving arm.
>
>
> I switched to laser printers a while back, but I'll get that someone
> on this list would like to get a little space back in the
> basement/garage.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> Thanks!
> Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Thu Nov 17 17:18:49 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:18:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: getting started in Drupal
Message-ID: <20111117171849.0e1eb28b420a8f87431b04d7@jasonhsu.com>

So far, I have substantial experience with HTML and basic experience with Ruby on Rails.

My questions:
1. What books, web sites, tutorials, etc. do you recommend for getting started in Drupal?
2. How quickly do Drupal books become obsolete? In the world of Ruby on Rails, books become worthless after only a year.
3. Is the Drupal setup finicky? It seems that all of the planets need to be properly aligned for Ruby on Rails to work properly. That's why I have uploaded my procedures to my web site at http://www.jasonhsu.com/ror.html . It's partly as a resource for the Ruby on Rails community, but it's mainly for my own use so that I never have to relearn everything.
4. How tricky is deployment? I learned from Ruby on Rails to deploy early and often. If my application has deployment problems, I can take care of them right away and not waste my time working on something that never sees the light of day.

-- 
Jason Hsu
Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 17:35:41 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:35:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: getting started in Drupal
In-Reply-To: <20111117171849.0e1eb28b420a8f87431b04d7@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111117171849.0e1eb28b420a8f87431b04d7@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEFQdFoSyi_9KgnmijPg=ct0eWvbTFeveGs62MvuaMMMGA@mail.gmail.com>

Jason,
I was big into Drupal from about 2005-2007. I then moved to a job
where Magento was the main website platform (we also used Wordpress).
Magento helped me see what a mess Drupal was.

If you're looking for a PHP based system to build out a website, at
this juncture, I would look first at frameworks (Zend Framework,
CodeIgniter, CakePHP, Symphony), and then to CMS packages that use
those frameworks (such as PyroCMS, which uses CodeIgniter).

Most websites that I've worked on fit into a general category (blog,
CMS, e-commerce site), but they inevitably needed some kind of
extension. As a developer, I find I'm in the strongest position when I
have a full fledged framework at my disposal, rather than a plugin or
extension model as you'll find with Wordpress or Drupal.

But, I could be wrong. It's been a long time since I have worked with
Drupal, and it's possible that they've improved things. Whatever you
decide to do, good luck!

-Erik

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> So far, I have substantial experience with HTML and basic experience with Ruby on Rails.
>
> My questions:
> 1. What books, web sites, tutorials, etc. do you recommend for getting started in Drupal?
> 2. How quickly do Drupal books become obsolete? In the world of Ruby on Rails, books become worthless after only a year.
> 3. Is the Drupal setup finicky? It seems that all of the planets need to be properly aligned for Ruby on Rails to work properly. That's why I have uploaded my procedures to my web site at http://www.jasonhsu.com/ror.html . It's partly as a resource for the Ruby on Rails community, but it's mainly for my own use so that I never have to relearn everything.
> 4. How tricky is deployment? I learned from Ruby on Rails to deploy early and often. If my application has deployment problems, I can take care of them right away and not waste my time working on something that never sees the light of day.
>
> --
> Jason Hsu
> Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 19:16:11 2011
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:16:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: getting started in Drupal
In-Reply-To: <20111117171849.0e1eb28b420a8f87431b04d7@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111117171849.0e1eb28b420a8f87431b04d7@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAOZLdJVPNEkdP7PgP0QbZ1W=YwY3n5tJT5_zhdQu52TN5Awe2g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 17:18, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> 1. What books, web sites, tutorials, etc. do you recommend for getting started in Drupal?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1430228598
http://www.amazon.com/dp/1430228385
http://drupal.org/documentation

> 2. How quickly do Drupal books become obsolete?

There are new concepts introduced with every major version, and new
books for that, but the stuff in the old books still applies pretty
well.  I'd say probably 4 years for a useful shelf life.

> 3. Is the Drupal setup finicky?

Not at all.

> 4. How tricky is deployment?

Not at all.  If you want to automate deployments with Drush that's a
little extra reading.

 - Tony

From jglouisjr at gmail.com  Thu Nov 17 20:47:57 2011
From: jglouisjr at gmail.com (James Louis)
Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:47:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] web based reporting tool
In-Reply-To: <CANsMYOU_3Z960KQfyF0C0j1P__zqZ5zY-absGgOvTzjVLfA9XA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EC415EB.1040304@lctn.org>
	<CANsMYOU_3Z960KQfyF0C0j1P__zqZ5zY-absGgOvTzjVLfA9XA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANsMYOVSdoG=mYsz3MGpuiQabqG82jPkbb=eA2Zin-XxpkHH7g@mail.gmail.com>

Untangle looked like the tool you want but it's been awhile since I've used
it. For the most part it's moved to a commercial tool but they still have a
free version. It was impressive when I did use it.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 11:26 AM, James Louis <jglouisjr at gmail.com> wrote:

> ClearOS might work
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:
>
>>  I am trying to help a member school get a handle on their Internet
>> traffic. What Open Source solutions are people using that can log all
>> Internet traffic? Reporting would be adequate, but being able to add
>> control (QOS, Content Filtering, etc...)measures would great. They use a
>> Sonic for a firewall, just trying to save them money on subscriptions.
>>
>> Raymond
>> ______________________________**_________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list<http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> To be is to do = Immanuel Kant
> To do is to be = Descartes.
> Do be do be do = Frank Sinatra
>
>


-- 
To be is to do = Immanuel Kant
To do is to be = Descartes.
Do be do be do = Frank Sinatra
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From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Nov 18 03:14:00 2011
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 03:14:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] *Saturday* Open Q & Q at Penguins Unbound Meeting
	November 19th Meeting
Message-ID: <4EC621D8.1080902@Goecke-Dolan.com>

This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be
Saturday November 19th at TIES,
1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108
from 10:00am to 12:00pm
(See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more
info.)

This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting

I will speak for part of the meeting about shell scripting and go over 
some example scripts.  The rest of the meeting will be an open Q&A session.

Thanks.

Hope to see you there.

==>brian.

*** STREAMING ***
If you can't make it you can use this url to stream the meeting.
mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800

You should be able to connect with either:
mplayer mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800
or
vlc http://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800

From david.johnson at usfamily.net  Fri Nov 18 09:43:39 2011
From: david.johnson at usfamily.net (David Johnson)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 09:43:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 83, Issue 38
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4115.1321607795.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.4115.1321607795.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <4EC67D2A.8010102@usfamily.net>


Try calling Free Geeks Twin Cities
They recycle computers, scanners & printers.  I would think they would 
be willing to sell you the part.

David
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 14:53:18 -0600
> From: T L<tlunde at gmail.com>
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: [tclug-list] Anyone have a broken ink jet printer that is
> 	near the	U or Edina?
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAE0VmCxb6pzWUzQHRSUcdfQ=DN5h0qb0v5A_2ujMH=6Vzk5xjg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Hello -
>
> I have a friend who is taking a robotics class at the U.  She's in
> need of parts for a class project and wrote:
>
> Anyone have a broken printer they would be willing to give me? There
> is a part in it I need for my robot.  Specifically, I need the
> track/belt that moves back and forth depositing the ink. I think this
> would work for my moving arm.
>
>
> I switched to laser printers a while back, but I'll get that someone
> on this list would like to get a little space back in the
> basement/garage.
>
> Can anyone help?
>
> Thanks!
> Thomas


From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Fri Nov 18 10:25:35 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 10:25:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek and the new Ubuntu
Message-ID: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>

I understand that Free Geek has been installing Ubuntu on its computers.  I'm wondering if the group is switching to another distro given the user-unfriendliness of the Unity interface.  This would require a BIG adjustment for the Free Geek volunteers and the recipients of the computers.  Additionally, the new Ubuntu requires newer computers than the old Ubuntu did.  (As I have found, the new Ubuntu is sluggish with 2 GB of RAM.)

Is Free Geek sticking with Ubuntu, or is it switching to something else?  If it's switching, is it moving to Xubuntu?  Lubuntu?  Linux Mint?  Puppy Linux?  Another distro?

-- 
Jason Hsu
Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 11:57:51 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:57:51 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO0gm5MuC=qqVhEqrAwToERfLtN4fPu5=_rToepAzyXXMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0gm5MuC=qqVhEqrAwToERfLtN4fPu5=_rToepAzyXXMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEHHBaYe60s=ksciN3kaJXgZDTQ7GS9SdQYTurmG0E2_7w@mail.gmail.com>

All,
Let's decide this with a poll. I've posted on my website, right sidebar:

http://ekmitchell.com/

It's possible to select two options. The poll runs through Tuesday,
11/22, at noonish. Hopefully by then we'll have a consensus on where
and when.

-Erik

On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
<jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd be up for one of these again- with a strong preference for a location in
> the big cities (Minneapolis or St. Paul).
>
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, David <djsteinhafel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Let's do it! I called Dave and Busters yesterday on unrelated
>> "business" and learned they don't have pinball machines. What's that
>> all about?
>>
>> Wed or Fri, D&B or Keegan's works for me.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 12:36:44 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 12:36:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHHBaYe60s=ksciN3kaJXgZDTQ7GS9SdQYTurmG0E2_7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0gm5MuC=qqVhEqrAwToERfLtN4fPu5=_rToepAzyXXMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEHHBaYe60s=ksciN3kaJXgZDTQ7GS9SdQYTurmG0E2_7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111181232520.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Let's decide this with a poll. I've posted on my website, right sidebar:
>
> http://ekmitchell.com/
>
> It's possible to select two options. The poll runs through Tuesday, 
> 11/22, at noonish. Hopefully by then we'll have a consensus on where and 
> when.

What do you think of this?:  Allow people to select more than two.  By 
doing so they are saying that they would go to any of those selected. 
People who wouldn't go to any of them should not vote.  That way you get 
an idea about attendance.  I don't think it helps to have people voting if 
they will not attend -- why should they be making suggestions about where 
other people ought to be meeting?  Would it be based on how far they want 
their friends to drive or how much they like the meeting place?

I don't meant to be critical of what you have done, which is great, and I 
thank you for it!

Mike

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Nov 18 14:46:30 2011
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:46:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111181232520.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller
> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 12:37 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
>
>
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Erik Mitchell wrote:
>
> > Let's decide this with a poll. I've posted on my website, right sidebar:
> >
> > http://ekmitchell.com/
> >
> > It's possible to select two options. The poll runs through Tuesday,
> > 11/22, at noonish. Hopefully by then we'll have a consensus on where and
> > when.
>
> What do you think of this?:  Allow people to select more than two.  By
> doing so they are saying that they would go to any of those selected.
> People who wouldn't go to any of them should not vote.  That way you get
> an idea about attendance.  I don't think it helps to have people voting if
> they will not attend -- why should they be making suggestions about where
> other people ought to be meeting?  Would it be based on how far they want
> their friends to drive or how much they like the meeting place?
>
> I don't meant to be critical of what you have done, which is great, and I
> thank you for it!
>
> Mike

I'd go further..

Check preferences for good beer and good pizza versus crummy taps and crummy pizza.

Check for interest in beer meetings even though conflicts may upset regular attendance or certain locations.

Better to find what may be feasible and desired instead of just certain parts of town for certain dates, etc.

Polls take considerable effort to make them useful, and might gather info more useful than voting on a single day or place.

I would just be turned off by a suggestion for Bud Light and Dominoes pizza... especially if parking near UMN or Northside distance
is involved.


Chuck



> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Nov 18 15:35:21 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:35:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Chuck Cole wrote:

> Check preferences for good beer and good pizza versus crummy taps and crummy pizza.

Ok, I was kinda trying to stay out of this a little bit, but frankly I 
hate that we call them 'beer meetings'. It kind of sets up an expectation 
that there'll be, you know. Beer, and people seem to always expect they'll 
therefore be at a bar/pub/whatever. Or at least somewhere that also serves 
drinks.

There are people on this list who don't drink, and just really don't like 
that kind of atmosphere. I'll wager there are active members on the list 
who legally aren't allowed in some such establishments due to age 
restrictions, too.


Can't we just call it a "TCLUG Gathering" and then it can just be 
wherever?

Also, and I know this is very counter-what-I'm-actually-doing, but for 
goodness sake, the guy organising the thing gets to chose the location. 
All this "Hey guys, lets have the next meeting at X" and then everyone 
goes "Y is better" and "Z has more Street Cred" etc etc. Not EVERYTHING 
has to be a committee.


I haven't been to a 'beer meeting' in forever. I'd love it if we stopped 
having them at bars because I'd kinda like to go again.


-Yaron

--

From taanerud at comcast.net  Fri Nov 18 16:06:44 2011
From: taanerud at comcast.net (Timothy Aanerud)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:06:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
Message-ID: <4EC6D6F4.10800@comcast.net>

Organizing a group meeting over the net is horrifically complicated.  
There are just too many variables. It's much easier for a leader to pick 
a date, time and place.  Then the decision process becomes binary.  Can 
I make it or not?   If you can great.  If you can't, maybe next time.

I ran into this problem long ago on usenet on the message group 
rec.aviation.
--
Timothy Aanerud


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 16:59:28 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:59:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111181656350.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Yaron wrote:

> Can't we just call it a "TCLUG Gathering" and then it can just be 
> wherever?


Sure, or "social meeting".  On another list, in Missouri, a few years 
back, one guy was really angry about "beer meetings" (what they called 
them there, too) because he saw alcohol as an extremely detrimental thing 
that ruined people's lives.  I got the message, but I thought he was 
taking it a bit far.  We aren't trying to encourage drinking, just getting 
together to see each other in real life.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 18 17:15:08 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:15:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <4EC6D6F4.10800@comcast.net>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
	<4EC6D6F4.10800@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111181659450.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Timothy Aanerud wrote:

> Organizing a group meeting over the net is horrifically complicated. 
> There are just too many variables. It's much easier for a leader to pick 
> a date, time and place.  Then the decision process becomes binary.  Can 
> I make it or not?  If you can great.  If you can't, maybe next time.
>
> I ran into this problem long ago on usenet on the message group 
> rec.aviation.


I think we should just allow anyone who wants to, at any time, decide to 
have a social meeting, say where they'll be (the person announcing has to 
show up!), and then we're done.  If the person calling the meeting wants 
to use some kind of web page to get an idea of how many people actually 
are going to show up, they can do that, but it wouldn't be a requirement.

In the past we've had the Tux penguin mascot on display (probably a plush 
toy) so that people can walk over to the right table(s) without having to 
ask every geeky-looking guy in the place if he's there for TCLUG.

Mike

From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Nov 18 22:23:56 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 22:23:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
Message-ID: <F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>

Bars are not pubs. Pubs serve alcohol, yes, and a fair amount of it, but they offer atmosphere and *good food*. 

Good pizza? Neither of the Minneapolis locations offer "good" pizza... and it's not even on the menu at Keegan's. Keegan's instead has great sandwiches, fish and chips, some good pasta items, great apps...

And you don't have to drink beer. My roommate who is 17 years sober comes down with me on a regular basis.

--
Ryan
?
On Nov 18, 2011, at 3:35 PM, Yaron wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Chuck Cole wrote:
> 
>> Check preferences for good beer and good pizza versus crummy taps and crummy pizza.
> 
> Ok, I was kinda trying to stay out of this a little bit, but frankly I hate that we call them 'beer meetings'. It kind of sets up an expectation that there'll be, you know. Beer, and people seem to always expect they'll therefore be at a bar/pub/whatever. Or at least somewhere that also serves drinks.
> 
> There are people on this list who don't drink, and just really don't like that kind of atmosphere. I'll wager there are active members on the list who legally aren't allowed in some such establishments due to age restrictions, too.
> 
> 
> Can't we just call it a "TCLUG Gathering" and then it can just be wherever?
> 
> Also, and I know this is very counter-what-I'm-actually-doing, but for goodness sake, the guy organising the thing gets to chose the location. All this "Hey guys, lets have the next meeting at X" and then everyone goes "Y is better" and "Z has more Street Cred" etc etc. Not EVERYTHING has to be a committee.
> 
> 
> I haven't been to a 'beer meeting' in forever. I'd love it if we stopped having them at bars because I'd kinda like to go again.
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sat Nov 19 04:52:59 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 04:52:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
	<F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>

On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Ryan Coleman wrote:

> Bars are not pubs.
...
> And you don't have to drink beer. My roommate who is 17 years sober 
> comes down with me on a regular basis.

A few years ago I spent a couple weeks in Ireland. Most of that time was 
spent being intentionally lost, in small village kind of situations. When 
asked where one might find some food, the ONLY answer was "Down the pub". 
Ok, occasionally the answer included "We have two restaurants but they're 
only open between May and October". And don't get me started on the answer 
to "Any place I can get WiFi around here?"

My point is, I know what a pub is. I know how it differs from a "bar", 
which, granted, my sample-size for is very small.

Now, I've been dragged to what were described as "Irish Pubs" in the twin 
cities. They are nothing at all like pubs in Ireland. For one thing, 
nobody was particularly friendly. Second, there were no children. There 
were also no people who brought their mandolins from home and were having 
a go and didn't mind letting a foreigner have a go even though he defiled 
their mandolin by playing guns'n'roses songs on it, but I digress.

Pubs in Ireland have atmosphere. And frankly if I never go back to one of 
THOSE, I'm good.


You say your roommate is 17 years sober? I've been sober for 37 years. As 
in, my entire life. I've never had a drink, and I've never wanted one. 
Drinkers (and ex-drinkers), you guys just don't realise that for some 
people, being around people who are drinking is just absolutely not fun.


Now, to be clear, I am not trying to convert the TCLUG to the Twin Cities 
Teetotalers & Temperamce Users Group. I think it's great that the tclug 
has social gatherings and they should definitely continue to happen, and 
I'm sorry I went off on a rant on this.

The only way I can even begin to describe the perspective I have on this 
is imagine you used a very uncommon operating system, and everyone else 
used Windows, and people would all get together and talk about Windows all 
day and you just couldn't understand why people were even doing that to 
themselves.

That's what it's like for me to hang out with people who drink.


-Yaron

--















/and yet I consider posting rants at 5am to be perfectly normal.

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sat Nov 19 07:11:46 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:11:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
	<F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
Message-ID: <B2B8A833-4527-4795-BDB5-859BCBF04D5D@me.com>


On Nov 19, 2011, at 4:52 AM, Yaron wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> 
>> Bars are not pubs.
> ...
>> And you don't have to drink beer. My roommate who is 17 years sober comes down with me on a regular basis.
> 
> A few years ago I spent a couple weeks in Ireland. Most of that time was spent being intentionally lost, in small village kind of situations. When asked where one might find some food, the ONLY answer was "Down the pub". Ok, occasionally the answer included "We have two restaurants but they're only open between May and October". And don't get me started on the answer to "Any place I can get WiFi around here?"
> 
> My point is, I know what a pub is. I know how it differs from a "bar", which, granted, my sample-size for is very small.
> 
> Now, I've been dragged to what were described as "Irish Pubs" in the twin cities. They are nothing at all like pubs in Ireland. For one thing, nobody was particularly friendly. Second, there were no children. There were also no people who brought their mandolins from home and were having a go and didn't mind letting a foreigner have a go even though he defiled their mandolin by playing guns'n'roses songs on it, but I digress.
> 
> Pubs in Ireland have atmosphere. And frankly if I never go back to one of THOSE, I'm good.

Check it out. Go on Sunday afternoons if you want people playing traditional music. It starts at 4pm and goes til 7, I believe.

I've never had an issue with their patronage nor their staff. Unfriendly isn't on the menu.

But... you are set in your ways... and I accept that.

As for kids running around... that's an issue with our culture, not the pub. If I had kids I'd bring them there. I go once a weekend for breakfast. I stay for 2-3 hours.


> 
> You say your roommate is 17 years sober? I've been sober for 37 years. As in, my entire life. I've never had a drink, and I've never wanted one. Drinkers (and ex-drinkers), you guys just don't realise that for some people, being around people who are drinking is just absolutely not fun.
> 
> 
> Now, to be clear, I am not trying to convert the TCLUG to the Twin Cities Teetotalers & Temperamce Users Group. I think it's great that the tclug has social gatherings and they should definitely continue to happen, and I'm sorry I went off on a rant on this.
> 
> The only way I can even begin to describe the perspective I have on this is imagine you used a very uncommon operating system, and everyone else used Windows, and people would all get together and talk about Windows all day and you just couldn't understand why people were even doing that to themselves.
> 
> That's what it's like for me to hang out with people who drink.
> 
> 
> -Yaron
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> /and yet I consider posting rants at 5am to be perfectly normal.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From j at packetgod.com  Sat Nov 19 07:44:48 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:44:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
	<F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CADr-737js1=eH2fu1Rktn9_-Nze4gJVUkV37NFsfWyVJPJ1zZA@mail.gmail.com>

I'll bring my kids, mandolin, and friendliness to Keegans anytime.
Let's just say there is hanging out with people drinking to get drunk
and then there is hanging out with folks just having a beer.  Big
difference.

In any case I think the point is we simply need to change the name
from beer meeting to "Drink whatever you like but I'm going to have a
beer meeting"

On 11/19/11, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Ryan Coleman wrote:
>
>> Bars are not pubs.
> ...
>> And you don't have to drink beer. My roommate who is 17 years sober
>> comes down with me on a regular basis.
>
> A few years ago I spent a couple weeks in Ireland. Most of that time was
> spent being intentionally lost, in small village kind of situations. When
> asked where one might find some food, the ONLY answer was "Down the pub".
> Ok, occasionally the answer included "We have two restaurants but they're
> only open between May and October". And don't get me started on the answer
> to "Any place I can get WiFi around here?"
>
> My point is, I know what a pub is. I know how it differs from a "bar",
> which, granted, my sample-size for is very small.
>
> Now, I've been dragged to what were described as "Irish Pubs" in the twin
> cities. They are nothing at all like pubs in Ireland. For one thing,
> nobody was particularly friendly. Second, there were no children. There
> were also no people who brought their mandolins from home and were having
> a go and didn't mind letting a foreigner have a go even though he defiled
> their mandolin by playing guns'n'roses songs on it, but I digress.
>
> Pubs in Ireland have atmosphere. And frankly if I never go back to one of
> THOSE, I'm good.
>
>
> You say your roommate is 17 years sober? I've been sober for 37 years. As
> in, my entire life. I've never had a drink, and I've never wanted one.
> Drinkers (and ex-drinkers), you guys just don't realise that for some
> people, being around people who are drinking is just absolutely not fun.
>
>
> Now, to be clear, I am not trying to convert the TCLUG to the Twin Cities
> Teetotalers & Temperamce Users Group. I think it's great that the tclug
> has social gatherings and they should definitely continue to happen, and
> I'm sorry I went off on a rant on this.
>
> The only way I can even begin to describe the perspective I have on this
> is imagine you used a very uncommon operating system, and everyone else
> used Windows, and people would all get together and talk about Windows all
> day and you just couldn't understand why people were even doing that to
> themselves.
>
> That's what it's like for me to hang out with people who drink.
>
>
> -Yaron
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> /and yet I consider posting rants at 5am to be perfectly normal.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Sat Nov 19 07:52:41 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:52:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CADr-737js1=eH2fu1Rktn9_-Nze4gJVUkV37NFsfWyVJPJ1zZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
	<F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
	<CADr-737js1=eH2fu1Rktn9_-Nze4gJVUkV37NFsfWyVJPJ1zZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3DCB0D88-C4ED-47EB-B152-1AA38C109E95@me.com>

+1 

On Nov 19, 2011, at 7:44 AM, J Cruit wrote:

> I'll bring my kids, mandolin, and friendliness to Keegans anytime.
> Let's just say there is hanging out with people drinking to get drunk
> and then there is hanging out with folks just having a beer.  Big
> difference.
> 
> In any case I think the point is we simply need to change the name
> from beer meeting to "Drink whatever you like but I'm going to have a
> beer meeting"
> 
> On 11/19/11, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> 
>>> Bars are not pubs.
>> ...
>>> And you don't have to drink beer. My roommate who is 17 years sober
>>> comes down with me on a regular basis.
>> 
>> A few years ago I spent a couple weeks in Ireland. Most of that time was
>> spent being intentionally lost, in small village kind of situations. When
>> asked where one might find some food, the ONLY answer was "Down the pub".
>> Ok, occasionally the answer included "We have two restaurants but they're
>> only open between May and October". And don't get me started on the answer
>> to "Any place I can get WiFi around here?"
>> 
>> My point is, I know what a pub is. I know how it differs from a "bar",
>> which, granted, my sample-size for is very small.
>> 
>> Now, I've been dragged to what were described as "Irish Pubs" in the twin
>> cities. They are nothing at all like pubs in Ireland. For one thing,
>> nobody was particularly friendly. Second, there were no children. There
>> were also no people who brought their mandolins from home and were having
>> a go and didn't mind letting a foreigner have a go even though he defiled
>> their mandolin by playing guns'n'roses songs on it, but I digress.
>> 
>> Pubs in Ireland have atmosphere. And frankly if I never go back to one of
>> THOSE, I'm good.
>> 
>> 
>> You say your roommate is 17 years sober? I've been sober for 37 years. As
>> in, my entire life. I've never had a drink, and I've never wanted one.
>> Drinkers (and ex-drinkers), you guys just don't realise that for some
>> people, being around people who are drinking is just absolutely not fun.
>> 
>> 
>> Now, to be clear, I am not trying to convert the TCLUG to the Twin Cities
>> Teetotalers & Temperamce Users Group. I think it's great that the tclug
>> has social gatherings and they should definitely continue to happen, and
>> I'm sorry I went off on a rant on this.
>> 
>> The only way I can even begin to describe the perspective I have on this
>> is imagine you used a very uncommon operating system, and everyone else
>> used Windows, and people would all get together and talk about Windows all
>> day and you just couldn't understand why people were even doing that to
>> themselves.
>> 
>> That's what it's like for me to hang out with people who drink.
>> 
>> 
>> -Yaron
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> /and yet I consider posting rants at 5am to be perfectly normal.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 08:18:02 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 08:18:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <3DCB0D88-C4ED-47EB-B152-1AA38C109E95@me.com>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
	<F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
	<CADr-737js1=eH2fu1Rktn9_-Nze4gJVUkV37NFsfWyVJPJ1zZA@mail.gmail.com>
	<3DCB0D88-C4ED-47EB-B152-1AA38C109E95@me.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEGRVpWJtNTiBakvZgnHWdnbbWq-3mWy16JbRsukmD=gMA@mail.gmail.com>

When I was a kid, we lived in Northfield, MN. One of the main
bars/pubs/whatever you call it on Division Street (the main street in
Northfield) is called the Rueb 'n' Stein.

When we lived there, it was the first half of the 1980's, there was a
regular "coffee" every Saturday morning at the Rueb. My dad was one of
the guys who would go to coffee.

Some Saturdays he'd take me with him. Other Saturdays he wouldn't.
Many Saturdays he wouldn't go at all. But it was a regular tradition
and those guys would get together and talk about whatever and then at
the end of the morning they'd all flip coins in some tournament
fashion to determine who would pick up the tab for coffee.

And such was social networking in the Reagan years. I've often thought
of how I'd like to see something like that start up again. Maybe that
could be the TCLUG Gathering? Instead of flipping coins to figure out
who pays, though, I'm sure one of us could write an Android app, so we
wouldn't have to be living totally in the stone age...

-Erik



On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 7:52 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> +1
>
> On Nov 19, 2011, at 7:44 AM, J Cruit wrote:
>
>> I'll bring my kids, mandolin, and friendliness to Keegans anytime.
>> Let's just say there is hanging out with people drinking to get drunk
>> and then there is hanging out with folks just having a beer. ?Big
>> difference.
>>
>> In any case I think the point is we simply need to change the name
>> from beer meeting to "Drink whatever you like but I'm going to have a
>> beer meeting"
>>
>> On 11/19/11, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 18 Nov 2011, Ryan Coleman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bars are not pubs.
>>> ...
>>>> And you don't have to drink beer. My roommate who is 17 years sober
>>>> comes down with me on a regular basis.
>>>
>>> A few years ago I spent a couple weeks in Ireland. Most of that time was
>>> spent being intentionally lost, in small village kind of situations. When
>>> asked where one might find some food, the ONLY answer was "Down the pub".
>>> Ok, occasionally the answer included "We have two restaurants but they're
>>> only open between May and October". And don't get me started on the answer
>>> to "Any place I can get WiFi around here?"
>>>
>>> My point is, I know what a pub is. I know how it differs from a "bar",
>>> which, granted, my sample-size for is very small.
>>>
>>> Now, I've been dragged to what were described as "Irish Pubs" in the twin
>>> cities. They are nothing at all like pubs in Ireland. For one thing,
>>> nobody was particularly friendly. Second, there were no children. There
>>> were also no people who brought their mandolins from home and were having
>>> a go and didn't mind letting a foreigner have a go even though he defiled
>>> their mandolin by playing guns'n'roses songs on it, but I digress.
>>>
>>> Pubs in Ireland have atmosphere. And frankly if I never go back to one of
>>> THOSE, I'm good.
>>>
>>>
>>> You say your roommate is 17 years sober? I've been sober for 37 years. As
>>> in, my entire life. I've never had a drink, and I've never wanted one.
>>> Drinkers (and ex-drinkers), you guys just don't realise that for some
>>> people, being around people who are drinking is just absolutely not fun.
>>>
>>>
>>> Now, to be clear, I am not trying to convert the TCLUG to the Twin Cities
>>> Teetotalers & Temperamce Users Group. I think it's great that the tclug
>>> has social gatherings and they should definitely continue to happen, and
>>> I'm sorry I went off on a rant on this.
>>>
>>> The only way I can even begin to describe the perspective I have on this
>>> is imagine you used a very uncommon operating system, and everyone else
>>> used Windows, and people would all get together and talk about Windows all
>>> day and you just couldn't understand why people were even doing that to
>>> themselves.
>>>
>>> That's what it's like for me to hang out with people who drink.
>>>
>>>
>>> -Yaron
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> /and yet I consider posting rants at 5am to be perfectly normal.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 12:14:45 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 12:14:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
References: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEAADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111181528450.6698@Dragon>
	<F7FFB6BA-DADF-4B06-8802-852FC4115F8F@me.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111190434510.2237@Dragon>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111191158520.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sat, 19 Nov 2011, Yaron wrote:

> The only way I can even begin to describe the perspective I have on this 
> is imagine you used a very uncommon operating system, and everyone else 
> used Windows, and people would all get together and talk about Windows 
> all day and you just couldn't understand why people were even doing that 
> to themselves.

None of us has to imagine the world we already live in.

I'm glad I don't live in a world where people around me are always talking 
about drinking.  One thing we know from research on alcohol consumption is 
that in the USA, people in their early 20s drink a lot more than at other 
times of life.  This is associated with college, but I also think it is 
part of the mating behavior of Americans these days.

But when someone says "have a beer" I don't think they mean we should get 
drunk or necessarily even drink a beer.  It's more about getting together 
and talking.  If you don't want the beer, just say yes to the "have a 
beer" invitation and then order something else.

Mike

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sat Nov 19 13:31:41 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:31:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Underpopulated Linux niches
Message-ID: <20111119133141.f3e9b451c529a54174586396@jasonhsu.com>

Although there are hundreds of Linux distros, I still see some unpopulated and underpopulated niches.  The ones I see are:
1.  Lightweight user-friendly distros with large repositories: This is the niche I'm aiming for with Swift Linux.  In the past, I tried to make antiX Linux more like Linux Mint and Puppy Linux.  Future versions will be a lighter version of Linux Mint Debian Edition that fits onto a CD.  My idea is to combine the superior capabilities of Linux Mint with the superior speed and compactness of Puppy Linux and antiX Linux.  With the end of Windows XP support approaching, the controversies over Unity and GNOME 3, and Ubuntu as heavy as Windows, I see an unprecedented opportunity for lightweight distros.  I know Lubuntu is considered lightweight, but it will be hard for it to remain lightweight given that Ubuntu keeps growing bigger.
2.  Lightweight distros: DistroWatch lists only 18 distros for old computers out of 312 active distros.
3.  Lightweight distros that fully support languages other than English: I've thought about how Linux can bridge the digital divide.  Bridging the digital divide here in the US is relatively easy, because English is the primary language in most places.  Bridging the digital divide around the world is another matter, because not everyone uses English.  A lightweight distro that fully supports languages other than English would go a long way towards bridging the digital divide in other countries.  A lightweight distro that fully supports Spanish would bring computing to much of Latin America.  Since the Latin American countries are poorer than the US, not many people there can afford new computers or even 4-year-old computers.  It's a pity that pirated Windows is so popular in other countries.  Of course, Microsoft would rather have people break the law and use pirated Windows than comply with the law ad use Linux.
4.  Arch Linux derivatives: For such a popular distro (one of the DistroWatch Top 10), it has very few derivatives.  DistroWatch lists only 7 Arch Linux derivatives but 77 Ubuntu derivatives, 137 Debian derivatives, and 60 non-Ubuntu Debian derivatives.
5.  Lightweight versions of Fedora, OpenSUSE, PCLinuxOS, CentOS, Mandriva, Sabayon, and other leading distros: I'm surprised that nobody has given any of these popular distros the antiX treatment.  antiX Linux is a lightweight version of MEPIS Linux and proved that it's possible to lighten a heavier distro but retain compatibility with the parent distro's large software repository.

I'm sure there are other niches that could have widespread appeal but are underpopulated.

-- 
Jason Hsu
Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org

From cncole at earthlink.net  Sat Nov 19 15:20:19 2011
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:20:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Underpopulated Linux niches  - Support, etc
In-Reply-To: <20111119133141.f3e9b451c529a54174586396@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLEEACDHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>

How is your job seeker's site doing these days?  Still alive and active or abandoned?   

Chuck

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Jason Hsu
> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 1:32 PM
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: [tclug-list] Underpopulated Linux niches
> 
> 
> Although there are hundreds of Linux distros, I still see some unpopulated and underpopulated niches.  The ones I see are:
> 1.  Lightweight user-friendly distros with large repositories: This is the niche I'm aiming for with Swift Linux. ...

From jjensen at apache.org  Sat Nov 19 15:39:13 2011
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 15:39:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek and the new Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>

In my experience, Joe User is not as bothered by the usual UI diffs as
the committed ;-).  I wonder that most of the FG customers are Joe
Users, so it probably doesn't matter (?).  I bet performance issues
would have an impact though...

I've never understood the fascination with Ubuntu.  I've worked on it,
Red Hat, Fedora, Solaris, DEC Unix (OSF/1), HP-UX, (others too?) and I
know I'm missing whatever the religion is about it.  Which is probably
the similar reason FG installs it vs another.


On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
> I understand that Free Geek has been installing Ubuntu on its computers. ?I'm wondering if the group is switching to another distro given the user-unfriendliness of the Unity interface. ?This would require a BIG adjustment for the Free Geek volunteers and the recipients of the computers. ?Additionally, the new Ubuntu requires newer computers than the old Ubuntu did. ?(As I have found, the new Ubuntu is sluggish with 2 GB of RAM.)
>
> Is Free Geek sticking with Ubuntu, or is it switching to something else? ?If it's switching, is it moving to Xubuntu? ?Lubuntu? ?Linux Mint? ?Puppy Linux? ?Another distro?
>
> --
> Jason Hsu
> Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 16:28:16 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:28:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek and the new Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111191559560.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sat, 19 Nov 2011, Jeff Jensen wrote:

> I've never understood the fascination with Ubuntu.  I've worked on it, 
> Red Hat, Fedora, Solaris, DEC Unix (OSF/1), HP-UX, (others too?) and I 
> know I'm missing whatever the religion is about it.  Which is probably 
> the similar reason FG installs it vs another.

I think that people who aren't really into Linux, the way that some of you 
are into it, will just try to identify a distro that is widely used, and 
use that.  So once something does well, it does better and better. 
Ubuntu has some serious money behind it and some marketing efforts, so 
that put it in the top ranks pretty early on and a larger user base 
naturally followed.  Also, Ubuntu delivers...

I've used a few distros but there are many I haven't used.  What I care 
about most is that the distro is (A) easy to install, (B) it works 
consistently, (C) it has a good system for updating software and security 
patches and (D) it has a very complete and easy-to-use package 
installation system.  Ubuntu fits the bill.

Maybe there are many other ones I could use that would do just as well, 
but I won't try them because I'm using Ubuntu and it's working.  However, 
if someone can convince me that something else might do everything I want 
and be *better* than Ubuntu in some ways, then I might give it a try.  So 
there is an effect of inertia on current users.

So I haven't seen anything religious about it.  I think it's a matter of 
convenience and support.  Ubuntu is widely used, so there is a lot of info 
about Ubuntu on the web.  Popularity has real effects -- considering 
popularity when choosing a distro isn't just about counting the users and 
falling in line.

Mike

From j at packetgod.com  Sat Nov 19 19:34:17 2011
From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:34:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek and the new Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADr-734czQauXL6+LXSGnE1R5gUhYAjavwx_AMRq5vuiagC8Zg@mail.gmail.com>

The religion you are missing is that it is based on the one true
distro "Debian" that uses the package manager to rule them all "dpkg"
with "apt" as the dpkg ring bearer.

In truth I always thought a distro based on Debian was the way to go
for the simple fact that is is so easy to maintain and upgrade (as
long as you keep away from the funkier apt sources).

So Ubuntu was that, now maybe Mint is it.  Mostly though I use
Backtrack which moved to a Debian base as well.

--j

Praise be to Debian in all it's glory!

On 11/19/11, Jeff Jensen <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:
> In my experience, Joe User is not as bothered by the usual UI diffs as
> the committed ;-).  I wonder that most of the FG customers are Joe
> Users, so it probably doesn't matter (?).  I bet performance issues
> would have an impact though...
>
> I've never understood the fascination with Ubuntu.  I've worked on it,
> Red Hat, Fedora, Solaris, DEC Unix (OSF/1), HP-UX, (others too?) and I
> know I'm missing whatever the religion is about it.  Which is probably
> the similar reason FG installs it vs another.
>
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>> I understand that Free Geek has been installing Ubuntu on its computers.
>> ?I'm wondering if the group is switching to another distro given the
>> user-unfriendliness of the Unity interface. ?This would require a BIG
>> adjustment for the Free Geek volunteers and the recipients of the
>> computers. ?Additionally, the new Ubuntu requires newer computers than the
>> old Ubuntu did. ?(As I have found, the new Ubuntu is sluggish with 2 GB of
>> RAM.)
>>
>> Is Free Geek sticking with Ubuntu, or is it switching to something else?
>> ?If it's switching, is it moving to Xubuntu? ?Lubuntu? ?Linux Mint? ?Puppy
>> Linux? ?Another distro?
>>
>> --
>> Jason Hsu
>> Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jjensen at apache.org  Sat Nov 19 20:15:45 2011
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:15:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek and the new Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CADr-734czQauXL6+LXSGnE1R5gUhYAjavwx_AMRq5vuiagC8Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-734czQauXL6+LXSGnE1R5gUhYAjavwx_AMRq5vuiagC8Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBwfqYRO=R6tSY4rtpko056dHd_Veje9h77e=Z-zHjpbjg@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for the answers guys!

So how is the dpkg better than yum/apt/rpm's with Red Hat/Fedora/others?


On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 7:34 PM, J Cruit <j at packetgod.com> wrote:
> The religion you are missing is that it is based on the one true
> distro "Debian" that uses the package manager to rule them all "dpkg"
> with "apt" as the dpkg ring bearer.
>
> In truth I always thought a distro based on Debian was the way to go
> for the simple fact that is is so easy to maintain and upgrade (as
> long as you keep away from the funkier apt sources).
>
> So Ubuntu was that, now maybe Mint is it. ?Mostly though I use
> Backtrack which moved to a Debian base as well.
>
> --j
>
> Praise be to Debian in all it's glory!
>
> On 11/19/11, Jeff Jensen <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:
>> In my experience, Joe User is not as bothered by the usual UI diffs as
>> the committed ;-). ?I wonder that most of the FG customers are Joe
>> Users, so it probably doesn't matter (?). ?I bet performance issues
>> would have an impact though...
>>
>> I've never understood the fascination with Ubuntu. ?I've worked on it,
>> Red Hat, Fedora, Solaris, DEC Unix (OSF/1), HP-UX, (others too?) and I
>> know I'm missing whatever the religion is about it. ?Which is probably
>> the similar reason FG installs it vs another.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:25 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>>> I understand that Free Geek has been installing Ubuntu on its computers.
>>> ?I'm wondering if the group is switching to another distro given the
>>> user-unfriendliness of the Unity interface. ?This would require a BIG
>>> adjustment for the Free Geek volunteers and the recipients of the
>>> computers. ?Additionally, the new Ubuntu requires newer computers than the
>>> old Ubuntu did. ?(As I have found, the new Ubuntu is sluggish with 2 GB of
>>> RAM.)
>>>
>>> Is Free Geek sticking with Ubuntu, or is it switching to something else?
>>> ?If it's switching, is it moving to Xubuntu? ?Lubuntu? ?Linux Mint? ?Puppy
>>> Linux? ?Another distro?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jason Hsu
>>> Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From ron at ron-l-j.com  Sat Nov 19 20:18:58 2011
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 19:18:58 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Meeting
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1321725601.15276.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1321725601.15276.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <d7cd6c23c91f994026f77f4b926f61e8.squirrel@ron-l-j.com>

Enter in meeting place suggestion in the numbered lines.
vote by placing your name followed by a comma.
Meeting places
1.                   |votes|
2.                   |votes|
3.                   |votes|
4.                   |votes|
5.                   |votes|

December week 1
| am  |S|M|T|W|T|F|S|
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| 8:00| | | | | | | |

December week 4
|  am |S|M|T|W|T|F|S|
| 8:00| | | | | | | |
| 8:30| | | | | | | |
| 9:30| | | | | | | |
|10:30| | | | | | | |
|11:00| | | | | | | |
|11:30| | | | | | | |
|12:00| | | | | | | |
|12:30| | | | | | | |
| 1:00| | | | | | | |
| 1:30| | | | | | | |
| 2:00| | | | | | | |
| 2:30| | | | | | | |
| 3:00| | | | | | | |
| 3:30| | | | | | | |
| 4:00| | | | | | | |
| 4:30| | | | | | | |
| 5:00| | | | | | | |
| 5:30| | | | | | | |
| 6:00| | | | | | | |
| 6:30| | | | | | | |
| 7:00| | | | | | | |
| 7:30| | | | | | | |
| 8:00| | | | | | | |

,Ron


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sat Nov 19 22:36:04 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 22:36:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek and the new Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <CADr-734czQauXL6+LXSGnE1R5gUhYAjavwx_AMRq5vuiagC8Zg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-734czQauXL6+LXSGnE1R5gUhYAjavwx_AMRq5vuiagC8Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111192226090.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Sat, 19 Nov 2011, J Cruit wrote:

> The religion you are missing is that it is based on the one true distro 
> "Debian" that uses the package manager to rule them all "dpkg" with 
> "apt" as the dpkg ring bearer.

Tht might be the "religion" that drives some users.  What do you think, 
maybe 2% of them?  Most users don't know anything about all of that.  For 
example, I've been using Ubuntu as my main system for about 3 years.  I 
knew that it came from Debian and that Debian was really into maintaining 
a free-software system.  I did like that but that wasn't what drove my 
choice.  I also know that I mostly use Synaptic or apt-get to install 
packages, but does that have something to do with dpkg?  I guess that's 
what you are saying but I didn't know that and I don't care.  All that 
matters to me is that I click the buttons and the software is installed 
and it works.


> In truth I always thought a distro based on Debian was the way to go for 
> the simple fact that is is so easy to maintain and upgrade (as long as 
> you keep away from the funkier apt sources).
>
> So Ubuntu was that, now maybe Mint is it.  Mostly though I use Backtrack 
> which moved to a Debian base as well.

Is there something with packages that Ubuntu used to do but it has since 
stopped doing?  If a distro is "easy to maintain and upgrade," than I 
guess you don't have to be "religious" to want to use it.

Mike

From nesius at gmail.com  Sun Nov 20 17:39:26 2011
From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:39:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Free Geek and the new Ubuntu
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111192226090.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20111118102535.3a6311765240e08826fe69c3@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAKumxByur23wj6X-3d3rq4s0f6vSCPHdnawhCj8uK-WJzEWXrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-734czQauXL6+LXSGnE1R5gUhYAjavwx_AMRq5vuiagC8Zg@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111192226090.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAOOsjE8jUWbvCXy6GhzEe7Z_n0CbEJ-NN7buXWxVg8Do8795sQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Nov 2011, J Cruit wrote:
>
>> In truth I always thought a distro based on Debian was the way to go for
>> the simple fact that is is so easy to maintain and upgrade (as long as you
>> keep away from the funkier apt sources).
>>
>> So Ubuntu was that, now maybe Mint is it.  Mostly though I use Backtrack
>> which moved to a Debian base as well.
>>
>
>
Ubuntu was a nice, polished Debian distro that had resources behind it and
a well defined release cadence (6 months).  The initial concept was pure
win.  Unfortunately Ubuntu and Gnome's leadership* clashed mightily and I
think that's partly what caused Ubuntu to jump the shark with Unity.  I'm
partial to Debian-based distros myself but I can roll with distros that use
rpm too.

I don't think Ubuntu + Unity is bad or good - it's just not what I want.

-Rob

* Using the word "leadership" in a broad sense with respect to Gnome.
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From wdtj at yahoo.com  Sun Nov 20 19:47:58 2011
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 17:47:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Looking for company to do IT support (slightly off
	topic)
Message-ID: <1321840078.74393.YahooMailNeo@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

My church is looking for a company that can provide IT support.? We have about a dozen Windows PC's, a couple of Windows 2003 servers (including Small Business Server) a couple of WiFi access points and a firewall to a cable internet modem.? We also have a couple of Macs on the network.

We've been running on pro-bono IT support for a few years but need to get better control of the network so we want to bring in a company to manage it on a contract basis.? We need someone with enough resources to provide onsite and/or remote service in a timely manner when problems occur.


I plan on bringing in this company for a basic inventory and documentation of the network for a baseline, then on a pay per call basis.

Any suggestions of companies would be greatly appreciated.? Thanks


--- 
Wayne Johnson,????????????             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
(612) 522-7003????????????             | then,  have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
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From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 21 05:40:38 2011
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 05:40:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Underpopulated Linux niches
In-Reply-To: <20111119133141.f3e9b451c529a54174586396@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111119133141.f3e9b451c529a54174586396@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <4ECA38B6.7040408@gmail.com>

On 11/19/2011 1:31 PM, Jason Hsu wrote:
> Although there are hundreds of Linux distros, I still see some unpopulated and underpopulated niches.  The ones I see are:
> 1.  Lightweight user-friendly distros with large repositories:
1. Use Ubuntu alternate CD to install a base system
2. ???
3. Profit

Ubuntu doesn't force anyone to install tons of software; it only
installs that much by default. If you don't select any extra
meta-packages during the install software part, you get a pretty good
base system. This is probably true of any major distro, but Ubuntu is
the most popular and it definitely fits the "user-friendly" and "large
repos" qualifications. LXDE is pretty lightweight (not as minimalistic
as some DEs, but still much lighter than KDE or Gnome) AFAICT, so if you
consider apt-get too user-unfriendly, go with Lubuntu, which will
install LXDE for you.

Personally, I think there are /way/ too many distros and that effort
should really be going into teaching users how to customize their
systems rather than making distros to fit niches.

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Mon Nov 21 08:40:02 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 08:40:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Underpopulated Linux niches
In-Reply-To: <4ECA38B6.7040408@gmail.com>
References: <20111119133141.f3e9b451c529a54174586396@jasonhsu.com>
	<4ECA38B6.7040408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9DSHysrxJmZLX0EPkcqzugKcRaKGkv9-9kb50NRgcRNPQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> effort should really be going into teaching users how to customize their
> systems rather than making distros to fit niches.
>

+1 to the first half of that, tho that could very usefully be made
available as respins, or distros, or live environments that with an easy
click replicate onto cd or dvd or thumbdrive, or web-launched installers,
or in any form that from the getgo offered easy click functionality, easy
access to commandline, and sufficient tips and help and links to make
everything easy and clear.  many players have advanced this lightyears from
what it used to be, but there's still parsects of progress possible..
personally i'd like to see far more presence of linux in school settings.
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From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Tue Nov 22 23:02:02 2011
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 23:02:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] POP - preventing re-download with server move
Message-ID: <20111122230202.6bd22358@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>

Curiuos if anyone has any good suggestions to handle this.

I try to get my hosting users to use IMAP but most use Outhouse and
the IMAP support is somewhat annoying for many so I typically have
them change their settings when using POP to leave copies on the
server.  That way when they get the inevitable virus or wanna use
webmail they have a backup copy and webmail sees their saved mail.

So now I have to move my sites to a new server and I'm trying to
avoid having all these messages re-downloaded by clients.  Some of the
sites I've moved with low email usage have just dealt with the
re-download and cleaned up afterwards.  I have a few other accounts
though that I'm more concerned about that have massive amounts of
stored email.  

The mail is stored in Maildirs - a sample file:

1280409166.23580.foo:2,S

If I move this to server "bar" would renaming the file prevent this
somehow?

1280409166.23580.bar:2,S

Old server uses qmail-pop, new server uses dovecot.

Thanks for any tips,

Josh

From josh at trutwins.homeip.net  Tue Nov 22 23:14:44 2011
From: josh at trutwins.homeip.net (Josh Trutwin)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 23:14:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] RHCSA / RHCE
Message-ID: <20111122231444.2e195512@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>

Anyone here RedHat certified?  If so, please contact me offlist, I'm
thinking about going for it through my employer and have some
questions.  

Or if you wanna share any thoughts on it publicly, reply to list...

Josh

From brockn at gmail.com  Tue Nov 22 23:17:20 2011
From: brockn at gmail.com (Brock Noland)
Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2011 21:17:20 -0800
Subject: [tclug-list] RHCSA / RHCE
In-Reply-To: <20111122231444.2e195512@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>
References: <20111122231444.2e195512@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAHCAor7jG58TQ8cF04H9LChf-uBmLxs=YRkynf6YYa+Ug8Ft1A@mail.gmail.com>

I'd love to hear any thoughts as well....

Brock

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Josh Trutwin <josh at trutwins.homeip.net> wrote:
> Anyone here RedHat certified? ?If so, please contact me offlist, I'm
> thinking about going for it through my employer and have some
> questions.
>
> Or if you wanna share any thoughts on it publicly, reply to list...
>
> Josh
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Wed Nov 23 06:44:29 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 06:44:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] POP - preventing re-download with server move
In-Reply-To: <20111122230202.6bd22358@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>
References: <20111122230202.6bd22358@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9DGQkhwP3HmHW1VFMFOgmE=rTeXuXaHitoHf8hScdUkew@mail.gmail.com>

experiment.  watch and see how dovecot changes that file when you use IMAP
to read it.
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From jmore at starmind.org  Wed Nov 23 09:42:53 2011
From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 09:42:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] RHCSA / RHCE
In-Reply-To: <CAHCAor7jG58TQ8cF04H9LChf-uBmLxs=YRkynf6YYa+Ug8Ft1A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111122231444.2e195512@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>
	<CAHCAor7jG58TQ8cF04H9LChf-uBmLxs=YRkynf6YYa+Ug8Ft1A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3GUt8sy3L8KLzYUzX8Bd9LYBA9xc_w_Ey3t1Jbec0tN7_DcA@mail.gmail.com>

I was.  I've not maintained my RHCE as my career veered in another direction.

The test is (was) fairly easy if you know what you're doing.  Back in
the day, I wrote Trouble Maker ( http://trouble-maker.sourceforge.net/
) to help me study for it. It's been sorta maintained, but I've heard
rumors that it's not so useful on current tests.

Jobwise, like most certifications, the learning process is far more
valuable than the actual certification has been.  That said, since
about June, I've been getting about one contact per week about
Linux-related jobs. No idea how much of that is my resume and how much
is the "RHCE" on my resume.

Best way to prep is Jang's book.
http://www.amazon.com/Certified-Engineer-Linux-Study-Certification/dp/0072264543
 .  Use Trouble-Maker if you think that your real life troubleshooting
skills need a boost.  If you *do* use Trouble-Maker, feel free to
write new trouble scripts.  The system is designed to be extensible.

-Josh More

On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 11:17 PM, Brock Noland <brockn at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd love to hear any thoughts as well....
>
> Brock
>
> On Tue, Nov 22, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Josh Trutwin <josh at trutwins.homeip.net> wrote:
>> Anyone here RedHat certified? ?If so, please contact me offlist, I'm
>> thinking about going for it through my employer and have some
>> questions.
>>
>> Or if you wanna share any thoughts on it publicly, reply to list...
>>
>> Josh
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From marc at e-skinner.net  Wed Nov 23 15:30:47 2011
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 15:30:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] RHCSA / RHCE
In-Reply-To: <20111122231444.2e195512@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>
References: <20111122231444.2e195512@prokofiev.trutwins.homeip.net>
Message-ID: <4ECD6607.4090201@e-skinner.net>

I'm an RHCA, what questions do you have?


On 11/22/2011 11:14 PM, Josh Trutwin wrote:
> Anyone here RedHat certified?  If so, please contact me offlist, I'm
> thinking about going for it through my employer and have some
> questions.
>
> Or if you wanna share any thoughts on it publicly, reply to list...
>
> Josh
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 23 16:28:58 2011
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2011 16:28:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
Message-ID: <4ECD73AA.3060201@gmail.com>

As much as I'd like to move from Windows, I have some issues. The first
barrier is the problems desktop environments are giving me.
GNOME is dead to me. GNOME 2 is ugly and probably not going to be
supported well, and GNOME 3 is even worse. I encountered it on an Ubuntu
live setup and absolutely hated it.
KDE is nice and comes with some great GUI utilities (they're a nice
crutch until I learn more CLI commands), but non-KDE programs look
downright awful. The solution to this seemed to be lxappearance (which
doesn't even require LXDE to be installed), but it screws up the KDE
'classic' application menu.
LXDE seems nice and lightweight, and because of lxappearance, I can get
a nice uniform look, but it lacks many of the nice GUI utilities that
KDE has. Also, its logo menu is not recreatable from the panel options.
Very odd.
Openbox seems to really mess KDE panels up.

Any suggestions to fix this? Perhaps a way to easily access KDE
utilities from an LXDE session? Perhaps some Openbox sorcery?

From gm5729 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 12:29:46 2011
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gk)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 12:29:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
Message-ID: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 12:00,  <tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org> wrote:
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
> ? ? ? ?tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Today's Topics:
>
> ? 2. Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs (Andrew Berg)


Okay so you would rather be forced to have NO DE choice and no way to
change it and something that breaks rather consistently?  Thought
not..

Linux is about choice.... so if you don't particularly like ALL of
Gnome, which I think is quite jamming and worked from day 1 of it's
release versus KDE4 total mismanagement and Alpha ware. And you don't
like all of KDE4, and you don't like all of LXDE. Choose the parts you
want! KDE apps run on Gnome, Gnome apps run on KDE, all of it
ultimately is just a pretty face for /usr/bin/blah when it comes down
to it making it look pretty for you. NO desktop except the tilers and
plain TTY is 'light'; ya I'm gonna get $hit on that but unused RAM is
wasted RAM and drive space is cheap so I hate the whining I always
hear from people about it.

Though that "recycling" old computers is great! It still is
contributing to running machines that are full of toxic waste -- think
ROHS, think Mercury free, we should be getting out of our homes; it is
full of excessive energy use that raises energy bills more so cooling
costs in the summer; and does not run at ideal operating efficiency.
People aren't going to buy junk. It's great if you want to get stuff
to someone that has none; but the above will still be applying. The
newer mother boards, LED monitors and lighting of all sorts, scanners,
PSU's, sensors and OS's along with their apps are designed to run as a
unit the help perpetuate the above.

I have tried at least 30, yes 30! DE/WM's  So the only barriers are
honestly imaginary.  The apps you might not get working will be those
you place in VM appliances or WINE. YMMV. Some DE/WM you really just
won't want to mess around with because of at least in my eyes when you
install a DE it should have its mouse, keyboard, printer, drive
mountings and nic card at a minimum working.

I encourage you run in terminal as much as you can sometimes pkill
firefox is the only way to stop run away javascript/flash etc versus
having to hard shutdown a machine because ctrl-alt-del or
ctrl-alt-prntscr r-e-i-s-u-b won't work; and lose data. If that is a
critical work environment it's just not acceptable.

gk

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 14:28:32 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 14:28:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111241337330.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, gk wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 12:00,  <tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org> wrote:
>>
>> ? 2. Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs (Andrew Berg)
>
>
> Okay so you would rather be forced to have NO DE choice and no way to 
> change it and something that breaks rather consistently?  Thought not..
>
> Linux is about choice....

It was a very trollish query.  I was tempted to recommend that he stick 
with Windows, if he loves it so much.

It is good to hear which DEs people love best.  Maybe someone can tell us 
what the trick is to switching from one to the other.  You wrote:


> I have tried at least 30, yes 30! DE/WM's So the only barriers are 
> honestly imaginary.

If I'm sitting there in front of my machine, can't I just kill my DE 
(Gnome 2, right now), drop to the console terminal and fire up another 
one?  Can't I install on the system as many of them as I please?

When I used Solaris, it would have a login window that allowed me to 
choose my window manager.  I could use Open Windows, KDE, Gnome, or a 
couple of others that I had installed.  Does Linux do that, too?  It made 
it easy in a multi-user environment for different users to choose 
different desktop environments.

I'm using Ubuntu.  It booted into Gnome 2, so I used Gnome 2, which was 
OK.  Now that they have Unity, I'm thinking about testing a few others to 
see how I like them.  What's the easiest way to do that?

Mike

From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 17:59:25 2011
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 17:59:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>

On 11/24/2011 12:29 PM, gk wrote:
> Okay so you would rather be forced to have NO DE choice and no way to
> change it and something that breaks rather consistently?  Thought
> not..
Don't spread FUD. There are choices on Windows. In fact, SharpEnviro is
quite nice...

> And you don't
> like all of KDE4, and you don't like all of LXDE. Choose the parts you
> want! KDE apps run on Gnome, Gnome apps run on KDE, all of it
> ultimately is just a pretty face for /usr/bin/blah when it comes down
> to it making it look pretty for you.
I'm aware of that. I did mention the issues I had with OpenBox and
lxappearance.

> NO desktop except the tilers and
> plain TTY is 'light'; ya I'm gonna get $hit on that but unused RAM is
> wasted RAM and drive space is cheap so I hate the whining I always
> hear from people about it.
Being lightweight is a bonus. I never complained about the RAM/disk
space usage of KDE/Gnome.

> I have tried at least 30, yes 30! DE/WM's  So the only barriers are
> honestly imaginary.
I haven't. Perhaps you could share your wisdom.

> I encourage you run in terminal as much as you can sometimes pkill
> firefox is the only way to stop run away javascript/flash etc versus
> having to hard shutdown a machine because ctrl-alt-del or
> ctrl-alt-prntscr r-e-i-s-u-b won't work; and lose data. If that is a
> critical work environment it's just not acceptable.
I am familiar with many commands, and do plan to expand my knowledge.
However, many times, things are more convenient to do with a GUI, even
if I know how to do it in a terminal.


Mike Miller wrote:
> It was a very trollish query.  I was tempted to recommend that he stick 
> with Windows, if he loves it so much.
I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'll put this another way: I want
to move away from Windows and would like help because I do not know
everything. Also, when did I say I loved Windows? I don't see how I even
implied that.

From canito at dalan.us  Thu Nov 24 18:05:33 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (canito at dalan.us)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:05:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
Message-ID: <1322179533.23316@dalan.us>

> I'm using Ubuntu.  It booted into Gnome 2, so I used Gnome 2, which was 
> OK.  Now that they have Unity, I'm thinking about testing a few others to 
> see how I like them.  What's the easiest way to do that?
> 
> Mike

Back when I was using Gentoo as my desktop I think I used gdm as my login manager, but now most distros that I know of use slim.

Even since I can remember, at the login screen just like you mentioned in Solaris you can select which WM to login to. So, I would guess that all you need to do is
log out of Gnome and at the login screen look for what ever icon you see which will allow you to select any of the WMs you have installed in Ubuntu, regardless it be
KDE or Gnome.

I am not sure if you're being serious or not here's additional information about Slim login manager.

SLIM on Gentoo
http://en.gentoo-wiki.com/wiki/SLiM

Thread on Slim
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=822452

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Thu Nov 24 18:22:54 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:22:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111241337330.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111241337330.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9B7zkWG+TgDoTrQ1qc1n--9LOZy1hUtdOaBcGkfdQW1Kw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I have tried at least 30, yes 30! DE/WM's So the only barriers are
>> honestly imaginary.
>>
>
> If I'm sitting there in front of my machine, can't I just kill my DE
> (Gnome 2, right now), drop to the console terminal and fire up another one?
>  Can't I install on the system as many of them as I please?
>
> When I used Solaris, it would have a login window that allowed me to
> choose my window manager.  I could use Open Windows, KDE, Gnome, or a
> couple of others that I had installed.  Does Linux do that, too?  It made
> it easy in a multi-user environment for different users to choose different
> desktop environments.
>
> I'm using Ubuntu.  It booted into Gnome 2, so I used Gnome 2, which was
> OK.  Now that they have Unity, I'm thinking about testing a few others to
> see how I like them.  What's the easiest way to do that?
>

it's trivial to apt-get install as many as you like, and gdm or kdm or lxdm
make it easy to logout of one and try another.  of those kdm is most clever
about remembering which user used which environment last.  the hardest part
is knowing what packages to install.  perhaps someone somewhere has a
list.  if you have enough ram and enough wild abandon to learn how, you can
run more than one at once.  if you learn how to invoke them from a getty
login, then yes, you'll have a console shell underneath it all.  when i do
that tho, i don't get sound.  if anyone has the solution to that i'd love
to see that.

a small list of some small DE/WMs:  twm, ROX Desktop, Joe's Window Manager
(JWM), fvwm, Awesome, LXDE(lubuntu), GNUstep, WindowMaker, LWM

when i ran "tasksel --list-tasks" under maverick i got this list of
meta-packages (tho not as nicely sorted):
   u manual                     Manual package selection
   u   ubuntu-netbook             Ubuntu Netbook
   u          netbook-live        Ubuntu Netbook live environment
   u  kubuntu-netbook            Kubuntu netbook
   u  kubuntu-netbook-live       Kubuntu Netbook Remix live CD
   u  kubuntu-mobile             Kubuntu mobile
   u  kubuntu-mobile-live        Kubuntu Mobile Remix live CD
   u   ubuntu-live                Ubuntu live CD
   u  xubuntu-live               Xubuntu live CD
   u  kubuntu-live               Kubuntu live CD
   u   ubuntu-dvd-live            Ubuntu live DVD
   u  kubuntu-dvd-live           Kubuntu live DVD
   u edubuntu-dvd-live          Edubuntu live DVD
   u   ubuntu-desktop             Ubuntu desktop
   u  xubuntu-desktop            Xubuntu desktop
   u  kubuntu-desktop            Kubuntu desktop
   u edubuntu-desktop-gnome     Edubuntu desktop
   u edubuntu-desktop-kde       Edubuntu KDE desktop
   u mythbuntu-desktop          Mythbuntu additional roles
   u mythbuntu-frontend         Mythbuntu frontend
   u mythbuntu-backend-master   Mythbuntu master backend
   u mythbuntu-backend-slave    Mythbuntu slave backend
   u ubuntustudio-font-meta     Large selection of font packages
   u ubuntustudio-graphics      2D/3D creation and editing suite
   u ubuntustudio-audio         Audio creation and editing suite
   u ubuntustudio-audio-plugins LADSPA and DSSI audio plugins
   u ubuntustudio-video         Video creation and editing suite
   u edubuntu-server            Edubuntu server
   i openssh-server             OpenSSH server
   u postgresql-server          PostgreSQL database
   u dns-server                 DNS server
   u lamp-server                LAMP server
   u mail-server                Mail server
   u print-server               Print server
   u samba-server               Samba file server
   u tomcat-server              Tomcat Java server
   u virt-host                  Virtual Machine host
   u uec                        Ubuntu Enterprise Cloud (instance)
   u eucalyptus-simple-cluster  Cloud computing: all-in-one cluster
   u eucalyptus-cloud           Cloud computing: top-level cloud controller
   u eucalyptus-node            Cloud computing: node controller
   u eucalyptus-cluster         Cloud computing: cluster controller
   u eucalyptus-storage         Cloud computing: storage controller
   u eucalyptus-walrus          Cloud computing: Walrus storage service
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov 24 18:49:50 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:49:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: looking for a mechanic with a programming tool
Message-ID: <A08BFFE2-91F7-4628-9E9B-1F9EE87214B9@me.com>

I guess... since I'm a developer, it would be appropriate for me to search for a mechanic who can program... but...

Maybe someone on the list has a Tech 2 (I think that's what I need) and is willing to give me some time tomorrow to help me through this...

Instructions: http://www.cruisecontrolstore.com/1775new.pdf

I appreciate it. I will pay for the help/time. Cash, even.

I need to drive to Indianapolis tomorrow afternoon/evening or early early Saturday morning so I'd love to do this tomorrow morning/early afternoon. If not I could any evening next week.

Thanks!!

--
Ryan

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 18:59:52 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 18:59:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: looking for a mechanic with a programming tool
In-Reply-To: <A08BFFE2-91F7-4628-9E9B-1F9EE87214B9@me.com>
References: <A08BFFE2-91F7-4628-9E9B-1F9EE87214B9@me.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEHaH1p4gU604HEW3Pj4RoYwk5eAy-s97EiBh8vPpSkAVw@mail.gmail.com>

Do you just need to read an OBD II code? They'll do that at Autozone for free.

-Erik

On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> I guess... since I'm a developer, it would be appropriate for me to search for a mechanic who can program... but...
>
> Maybe someone on the list has a Tech 2 (I think that's what I need) and is willing to give me some time tomorrow to help me through this...
>
> Instructions: http://www.cruisecontrolstore.com/1775new.pdf
>
> I appreciate it. I will pay for the help/time. Cash, even.
>
> I need to drive to Indianapolis tomorrow afternoon/evening or early early Saturday morning so I'd love to do this tomorrow morning/early afternoon. If not I could any evening next week.
>
> Thanks!!
>
> --
> Ryan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov 24 19:07:57 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 19:07:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: looking for a mechanic with a programming tool
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHaH1p4gU604HEW3Pj4RoYwk5eAy-s97EiBh8vPpSkAVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <A08BFFE2-91F7-4628-9E9B-1F9EE87214B9@me.com>
	<CANNReEHaH1p4gU604HEW3Pj4RoYwk5eAy-s97EiBh8vPpSkAVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9A54D49F-1D3F-4135-9C0C-02800ADF10EE@me.com>

No, I need to reprogram the computer to activate cruise control... and tell it a few things (page 2, I think, of the PDF covers the steps).

On Nov 24, 2011, at 6:59 PM, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> Do you just need to read an OBD II code? They'll do that at Autozone for free.
> 
> -Erik
> 
> On Thu, Nov 24, 2011 at 6:49 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>> I guess... since I'm a developer, it would be appropriate for me to search for a mechanic who can program... but...
>> 
>> Maybe someone on the list has a Tech 2 (I think that's what I need) and is willing to give me some time tomorrow to help me through this...
>> 
>> Instructions: http://www.cruisecontrolstore.com/1775new.pdf
>> 
>> I appreciate it. I will pay for the help/time. Cash, even.
>> 
>> I need to drive to Indianapolis tomorrow afternoon/evening or early early Saturday morning so I'd love to do this tomorrow morning/early afternoon. If not I could any evening next week.
>> 
>> Thanks!!
>> 
>> --
>> Ryan
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> http://mitc0185.com/
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 21:23:17 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 21:23:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111242042480.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, Andrew Berg wrote:

> Mike Miller wrote:
>> It was a very trollish query.  I was tempted to recommend that he stick
>> with Windows, if he loves it so much.
>
> I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'll put this another way: I want 
> to move away from Windows and would like help because I do not know 
> everything. Also, when did I say I loved Windows? I don't see how I even 
> implied that.

I'm sorry I misread your message.  To me it seemed to be saying "I want to 
use Linux instead of Windows, but I can't find any Linux desktop that can 
compete with Windows desktop."  I personally don't see Windows desktop as 
better than Gnome 2 in any important way, so I didn't understand what you 
were looking for or complaining about.

Maybe I don't think too much about the desktop because I spend so much 
time working from a terminal window -- not that it's better (but it might 
be), it's just that I started using UNIX systems via telnet connection and 
I had no graphics at all for years.  I still do all file management from 
the command line and almost every program is launched from the command 
line.  I don't use nautilus much.

Mike

From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 23:06:46 2011
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 23:06:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111242042480.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111242042480.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4ECF2266.4040209@gmail.com>

On 11/24/2011 9:23 PM, Mike Miller wrote:
> I'm sorry I misread your message.  To me it seemed to be saying "I want to 
> use Linux instead of Windows, but I can't find any Linux desktop that can 
> compete with Windows desktop."  I personally don't see Windows desktop as 
> better than Gnome 2 in any important way, so I didn't understand what you 
> were looking for or complaining about.
All I really need is a simple 2-panel setup and for all windows not to
look terrible. After some thought, I think I'll go to LXDE and look
around KDE's website to find the specific utilities I'm looking for. I
feel a bit silly that I didn't look at KDE's website before.

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 00:56:22 2011
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 00:56:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <4ECF2266.4040209@gmail.com>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111242042480.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
	<4ECF2266.4040209@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111250053370.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 24 Nov 2011, Andrew Berg wrote:

> All I really need is a simple 2-panel setup and for all windows not to 
> look terrible. After some thought, I think I'll go to LXDE and look 
> around KDE's website to find the specific utilities I'm looking for. I 
> feel a bit silly that I didn't look at KDE's website before.

Someday, if you get a chance, could you post a screenshot of a window that 
looks terrible and a screenshot of a window that doesn't look terrible? 
The thing is, I've never had a window that looked terrible, to me, so I 
don't know what you are experiencing.

Mike

From gm5729 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 05:59:49 2011
From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gk)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 05:59:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 83, Issue 47
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4472.1322180615.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.4472.1322180615.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <CAFxDM3wu1BMB4XXeAH92pC3GRR1sQpvDL2eqzCAMDu=N5By6dg@mail.gmail.com>

> ? 3. Re: Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs (Andrew Berg)
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2011 17:59:25 -0600
> From: Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
> Message-ID: <4ECEDA5D.2000401 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> On 11/24/2011 12:29 PM, gk wrote:
>> Okay so you would rather be forced to have NO DE choice and no way to
>> change it and something that breaks rather consistently? ?Thought
>> not..
> Don't spread FUD. There are choices on Windows. In fact, SharpEnviro is
> quite nice...


Not FUD.. there is ONE authorized desktop for M$ products like there
is for Macs. KDE4 runs on M$. Most of it is done the name of IP and
other such draconian copyright laws. Theses "desktops" change with new
releases.

The easiest way is to run a login manager:

exec startkde4
exec -ck-launch-session gnome-session
exec....
exec...

The above maybe not working examples are pull down menues available.
KDM GDM XDM are all under active development in one phase or another.
I know SLIM hasnt' been updated in 2-3 years or more. Those are 3 I
can think of.  It's one of those if you have to do the task more than
once script it.

startx from tty with /etc/X11/xinitrc or ~/.xinitrc will basically
have the same commands

Types  -- three broad categories

    Stacking (aka floating) window managers provide the tradition
desktop metaphor used in commercial operating systems like Windows and
OS X. Windows act like pieces of paper on a desk, and can be stacked
on top of each other.
    Tiling window managers "tile" the windows so that none are
overlapping. They usually make very extensive use of key-bindings and
have less (or no) reliance on the mouse. Tiling window managers may be
manual, offer predefined layouts, or both.
    Dynamic window managers can dynamically switch between tiling or
floating window layout.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Window_Manager
https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Display_Manager

This is the common methods used by linux in general to fire up the
graphical interface. Paths, naming conventions, run levels, etc will
be different.

As far as packages they are based on dependencies the most common for
most people QT/GTK2/3. So you are already going to install most apps
as it is anyway and their libraries in a major base install. Depending
on the distribution being used will depend on how many extra apps are
deposited/installed versus what can be uninstalled. Some items once
they are in are in ... Like HAL used to be and some legacy items still
need it IF you can find it. I have gone from one DE/WM with everything
working to no sound, no mouse, video issues and crashings, no nic card
-- which makes it next to near impossible to get a box running;
because like video now documents, movies, browsers and the sheer
volume of bandwidth is growing and won't just fit on a floppy any
more.

There are those that have NO QT or GTK dependenicies -- Haskell anyone ;D

From canito at dalan.us  Fri Nov 25 07:41:16 2011
From: canito at dalan.us (canito at dalan.us)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 07:41:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 83, Issue 47
Message-ID: <1322228476.31554@dalan.us>

> I know SLIM hasnt' been updated in 2-3 years or more. 

Actually, the latest release of Slim, Simple Login Manager was on July of 2010. So that's slightly over a year and some months.
However, from looking at their project page it appears it hasn't had much work recently.

http://developer.berlios.de/projects/slim/

From ron at ron-l-j.com  Fri Nov 25 10:44:16 2011
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 09:44:16 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4498.1322228485.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.4498.1322228485.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <691ce93b2ce180b63a71c032aaf6297c.squirrel@www.ron-l-j.com>

I see this a lot, program x doesn't work on Linux. Then people try to help
and post other programs/solutions. Solution = use your windows programs on
windows. Use Linux because its awesome. Learn more about Linux and be open
to what it has to offer. Realize that when you learned windows it took a
while, and learning Linux will take a while too. After you learn Linux you
will wonder why you ever thought windows was any good. If you want Linux
with one desktop Go buy a Mac. People on the TCLUG will help you. Please
step back and open your mind to something different. There are A lot of
great people in the local Linux community.
,Ron


From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 16:33:39 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:33:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1111241337330.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<alpine.DEB.2.00.1111241337330.28999@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4ED017C3.20103@gmail.com>

On 11/24/2011 2:28 PM, Mike Miller cried from the depths of the abyss:

> When I used Solaris, it would have a login window that allowed me to
> choose my window manager. I could use Open Windows, KDE, Gnome, or a
> couple of others that I had installed. Does Linux do that, too? It made
> it easy in a multi-user environment for different users to choose
> different desktop environments.
>

I think this is a distro specific thing.  I know Slackware comes with 
the ability to switch DE's out of the box (also user specific).

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 16:37:00 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:37:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED0188C.7060405@gmail.com>

On 11/24/2011 5:59 PM, Andrew Berg cried from the depths of the abyss:

> I am familiar with many commands, and do plan to expand my knowledge.
> However, many times, things are more convenient to do with a GUI, even
> if I know how to do it in a terminal.
>

It is statements like this that are keeping you off the Jedi Council & 
denying you the rank of Jedi Master.



From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 16:43:58 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:43:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED01A2E.4070603@gmail.com>

On 11/24/2011 5:59 PM, Andrew Berg cried from the depths of the abyss:
> I'm sorry if I came across that way. I'll put this another way: I want
> to move away from Windows and would like help because I do not know
> everything. Also, when did I say I loved Windows? I don't see how I even
> implied that.

The best way to do this is to remove all windows media from your house, 
install your fav distro, and just start using it (without a win box 
laying around that you can go to when stuck).  You would be amazing how 
your Jedi abilities will grow.  Use the Source.

"I want to learn the ways of the Source and become a jedi like my father"

May the Source be with you!



From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 16:49:12 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:49:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows
In-Reply-To: <691ce93b2ce180b63a71c032aaf6297c.squirrel@www.ron-l-j.com>
References: <mailman.4498.1322228485.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<691ce93b2ce180b63a71c032aaf6297c.squirrel@www.ron-l-j.com>
Message-ID: <4ED01B68.1040702@gmail.com>

On 11/25/2011 10:44 AM, ron at ron-l-j.com cried from the depths of the abyss:
> I see this a lot, program x doesn't work on Linux. Then people try to help
> and post other programs/solutions. Solution = use your windows programs on
> windows. Use Linux because its awesome. Learn more about Linux and be open
> to what it has to offer. Realize that when you learned windows it took a
> while, and learning Linux will take a while too. After you learn Linux you
> will wonder why you ever thought windows was any good. If you want Linux
> with one desktop Go buy a Mac. People on the TCLUG will help you. Please
> step back and open your mind to something different. There are A lot of
> great people in the local Linux community.
> ,Ron


The Source is strong with this one!


From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Nov 25 19:39:57 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 01:39:57 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows
In-Reply-To: <4ED01B68.1040702@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.4498.1322228485.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
	<691ce93b2ce180b63a71c032aaf6297c.squirrel@www.ron-l-j.com>
	<4ED01B68.1040702@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1518168031-1322271598-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1158227459-@b15.c4.bise6.blackberry>

Someones been watching a marathon. :)
Help you we can, yes.

But don't forget "its all about the Pentiums baby!"

I would bet most modern *DM's (kdm, gdm, xdm, etc) will allow for multiple concurrent desktop choices for multiple concurrent users, it would just be a matter of configuring them to do so. That said I once used a DM that made it look and feel like windows xp: desktop right click, start menu, control panel, etc. I also used one called ratpoison, might have to google that one later to see what ever happened to that one.



-----Original Message-----
From: "Mr. B-o-B" <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com>
Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 16:49:12 
To: <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows

On 11/25/2011 10:44 AM, ron at ron-l-j.com cried from the depths of the abyss:
> I see this a lot, program x doesn't work on Linux. Then people try to help
> and post other programs/solutions. Solution = use your windows programs on
> windows. Use Linux because its awesome. Learn more about Linux and be open
> to what it has to offer. Realize that when you learned windows it took a
> while, and learning Linux will take a while too. After you learn Linux you
> will wonder why you ever thought windows was any good. If you want Linux
> with one desktop Go buy a Mac. People on the TCLUG will help you. Please
> step back and open your mind to something different. There are A lot of
> great people in the local Linux community.
> ,Ron


The Source is strong with this one!

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 25 20:30:10 2011
From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2011 20:30:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Migrating from Windows, barrier 1: DEs
In-Reply-To: <4ED0188C.7060405@gmail.com>
References: <CAFxDM3zENagaRPd8SOL3ezR7qWpHocBsndF56vo_CbFN-qQsjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<4ECEDA5D.2000401@gmail.com> <4ED0188C.7060405@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED04F32.4020108@gmail.com>

On 11/25/2011 4:37 PM, Mr. B-o-B wrote:
> It is statements like this that are keeping you off the Jedi Council & 
> denying you the rank of Jedi Master.
Heh. I've been using "deathstar" as my hostname (for both Windows and
Linux installs)...

From ron at ron-l-j.com  Sat Nov 26 12:47:15 2011
From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com)
Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2011 11:47:15 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Quick Reference for new Linux users.
Message-ID: <d2393c251b71f88be5112734601debd1.squirrel@www.ron-l-j.com>

I have Posted on my Blog Quick reference for the Linux+ exam. As I go
through the book I will post what I think needs to be done in order to
"Use the source !" The first post covers commands and the second covers
RPM and Yum Package management. IF you want to take a Look go to
http://www.ron-l-j.com/blog I hope this help any new users looking to get
up to speed.
Also for text editing I recommend typing in vim tutor at the command prompt.

    "Train yourself to let go of everything you fear to lose."
    &#8213;Yoda to Anakin Skywalker

,Ron


From jjensen at apache.org  Sun Nov 27 08:11:01 2011
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 08:11:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Article "Ubuntu Linux losing popularity fast. New
	Unity interface to blame?"
Message-ID: <CAKumxByxr_XHmEPFS8_ZibJvJ_pTSRbUMA2hnW+iEA+XTT+WrQ@mail.gmail.com>

With the latest chat on Unity/Ubuntu, I found this an interesting read
with some numbers from DistroWatch and Google Trends:
http://bit.ly/uicVXP

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 20:10:43 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:10:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHHBaYe60s=ksciN3kaJXgZDTQ7GS9SdQYTurmG0E2_7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0gm5MuC=qqVhEqrAwToERfLtN4fPu5=_rToepAzyXXMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEHHBaYe60s=ksciN3kaJXgZDTQ7GS9SdQYTurmG0E2_7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEEMCFUo+n4Xtjz2jkH=sdu+ccLPpkQWqcKa7+rz7zF+yQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for everyone for participating in the November 2011 TCLUG
Beer Meeting poll. The consensus is to meet this Wednesday, 11/30, at
Dave & Buster's in Maple Grove.

However, and I take full blame and responsibility for this, I can not
make it this Wednesday (my wife just informed me of this).

So, as the organizer of this month's beer meeting, I am throwing the
poll results out, and declaring that NEXT week is the week, Wednesday,
December 7, 2011, at Dave & Buster's in Maple Grove.

Also, to make it a littler easier to get there after work, I'm going
to set a start time of 7:00pm.

If this causes any inconvenience to anyone, I apologize. Otherwise, I
hope to see you all there!

Again: NEXT WEEK, 12/7, 7:00pm, Dave & Busters in Maple Grove!

-Erik

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> All,
> Let's decide this with a poll. I've posted on my website, right sidebar:
>
> http://ekmitchell.com/
>
> It's possible to select two options. The poll runs through Tuesday,
> 11/22, at noonish. Hopefully by then we'll have a consensus on where
> and when.
>
> -Erik
>
> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
> <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd be up for one of these again- with a strong preference for a location in
>> the big cities (Minneapolis or St. Paul).
>>
>> --
>> Jeremy MountainJohnson
>> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, David <djsteinhafel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Let's do it! I called Dave and Busters yesterday on unrelated
>>> "business" and learned they don't have pinball machines. What's that
>>> all about?
>>>
>>> Wed or Fri, D&B or Keegan's works for me.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> http://mitc0185.com/
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From mastercactapus at gmail.com  Sun Nov 27 20:39:06 2011
From: mastercactapus at gmail.com (Nathan Caza)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:39:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEEMCFUo+n4Xtjz2jkH=sdu+ccLPpkQWqcKa7+rz7zF+yQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0gm5MuC=qqVhEqrAwToERfLtN4fPu5=_rToepAzyXXMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEHHBaYe60s=ksciN3kaJXgZDTQ7GS9SdQYTurmG0E2_7w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEEMCFUo+n4Xtjz2jkH=sdu+ccLPpkQWqcKa7+rz7zF+yQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGtvEUCZP46WkowTSUz_CEDV1jxMzY3evRzOaH7e3HR8GxuiKQ@mail.gmail.com>

7th at 7. Works for me.

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 8:10 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Thank you for everyone for participating in the November 2011 TCLUG
> Beer Meeting poll. The consensus is to meet this Wednesday, 11/30, at
> Dave & Buster's in Maple Grove.
>
> However, and I take full blame and responsibility for this, I can not
> make it this Wednesday (my wife just informed me of this).
>
> So, as the organizer of this month's beer meeting, I am throwing the
> poll results out, and declaring that NEXT week is the week, Wednesday,
> December 7, 2011, at Dave & Buster's in Maple Grove.
>
> Also, to make it a littler easier to get there after work, I'm going
> to set a start time of 7:00pm.
>
> If this causes any inconvenience to anyone, I apologize. Otherwise, I
> hope to see you all there!
>
> Again: NEXT WEEK, 12/7, 7:00pm, Dave & Busters in Maple Grove!
>
> -Erik
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
>> All,
>> Let's decide this with a poll. I've posted on my website, right sidebar:
>>
>> http://ekmitchell.com/
>>
>> It's possible to select two options. The poll runs through Tuesday,
>> 11/22, at noonish. Hopefully by then we'll have a consensus on where
>> and when.
>>
>> -Erik
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
>> <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I'd be up for one of these again- with a strong preference for a location in
>>> the big cities (Minneapolis or St. Paul).
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jeremy MountainJohnson
>>> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, David <djsteinhafel at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Let's do it! I called Dave and Busters yesterday on unrelated
>>>> "business" and learned they don't have pinball machines. What's that
>>>> all about?
>>>>
>>>> Wed or Fri, D&B or Keegan's works for me.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Erik K. Mitchell
>> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>> http://mitc0185.com/
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> http://mitc0185.com/
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jjensen at apache.org  Sun Nov 27 21:49:42 2011
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 21:49:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Beer Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEEMCFUo+n4Xtjz2jkH=sdu+ccLPpkQWqcKa7+rz7zF+yQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHDu9dgt1CzeSR7fU+jwvS+WSSuqDCA0DfHMx8dnkbvng@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAOOsjE-XkeGYq3ocNiOWZa4izunvd0qFvMuy2XFaKv7YjmdtrA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADr-736dkN1N=A_j7Bj4gKZB82ra-wOCk3mMFrvjnhz3ouhm-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<4EE60C96-C0CA-4C9E-81D6-6C12FD0A6C97@me.com>
	<CAKumxBw3+j6e1J3ygVjC=TCa57w0BC4jtbwSgg+FtQtEkArReg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAET8Lp0M6tOJLP1cn12vOUWpXedU3rXJq62=FBig4aGcXHkZ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACEdYO0gm5MuC=qqVhEqrAwToERfLtN4fPu5=_rToepAzyXXMA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEHHBaYe60s=ksciN3kaJXgZDTQ7GS9SdQYTurmG0E2_7w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANNReEEMCFUo+n4Xtjz2jkH=sdu+ccLPpkQWqcKa7+rz7zF+yQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBwzgRhM2vKvzP6cCPYhU0tGmZZXWobsHw1j6+qr7+YiOA@mail.gmail.com>

New poll!  I can't make that date either!  :-(
On Nov 27, 2011 8:11 PM, "Erik Mitchell" <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:

> Thank you for everyone for participating in the November 2011 TCLUG
> Beer Meeting poll. The consensus is to meet this Wednesday, 11/30, at
> Dave & Buster's in Maple Grove.
>
> However, and I take full blame and responsibility for this, I can not
> make it this Wednesday (my wife just informed me of this).
>
> So, as the organizer of this month's beer meeting, I am throwing the
> poll results out, and declaring that NEXT week is the week, Wednesday,
> December 7, 2011, at Dave & Buster's in Maple Grove.
>
> Also, to make it a littler easier to get there after work, I'm going
> to set a start time of 7:00pm.
>
> If this causes any inconvenience to anyone, I apologize. Otherwise, I
> hope to see you all there!
>
> Again: NEXT WEEK, 12/7, 7:00pm, Dave & Busters in Maple Grove!
>
> -Erik
>
> On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 11:57 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > All,
> > Let's decide this with a poll. I've posted on my website, right sidebar:
> >
> > http://ekmitchell.com/
> >
> > It's possible to select two options. The poll runs through Tuesday,
> > 11/22, at noonish. Hopefully by then we'll have a consensus on where
> > and when.
> >
> > -Erik
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:19 AM, Jeremy MountainJohnson
> > <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'd be up for one of these again- with a strong preference for a
> location in
> >> the big cities (Minneapolis or St. Paul).
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> >> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 1:43 PM, David <djsteinhafel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Let's do it! I called Dave and Busters yesterday on unrelated
> >>> "business" and learned they don't have pinball machines. What's that
> >>> all about?
> >>>
> >>> Wed or Fri, D&B or Keegan's works for me.
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Erik K. Mitchell
> > erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> > http://mitc0185.com/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> http://mitc0185.com/
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Sun Nov 27 21:50:53 2011
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2011 21:50:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguin prize at Dave and Busters
Message-ID: <20111127215053.3a67bef2583afde7badc7a76@jasonhsu.com>

I was at Dave and Busters last Wednesday (with the 20s and 30s Meetup group), and I noticed that one of the prizes in the prize shop was a stuffed penguin.  OK, OK, it was from the movie _Penguins of Madagascar_.  But you know you're a Linux geek when you have a soft spot for penguins.  (No, I didn't buy the penguin.  I used some of the tickets I won to buy candy and gave the rest away to another member of the Meetup group who wanted to buy a coffee maker.)

I look forward to next week's Dave and Busters get-together.  I'd really like to play the interactive auto racing game as a group, as it's more fun with human opponents than computer-controlled components.  I'd also like to play the interactive trivia game as a group.

-- 
Jason Hsu
Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Mon Nov 28 09:07:54 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:07:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguin prize at Dave and Busters
In-Reply-To: <20111127215053.3a67bef2583afde7badc7a76@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20111127215053.3a67bef2583afde7badc7a76@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9AsaTX-BZSxL3saim1zf=J85E=qtodWNn-i1xbynVrX7Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 21:50, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> I was at Dave and Busters last Wednesday (with the 20s and 30s Meetup
> group), and I noticed that one of the prizes in the prize shop was a
> stuffed penguin.  OK, OK, it was from the movie _Penguins of Madagascar_.
>  But you know you're a Linux geek when you have a soft spot for penguins.
>  (No, I didn't buy the penguin.  I used some of the tickets I won to buy
> candy and gave the rest away to another member of the Meetup group who
> wanted to buy a coffee maker.)
>

i also was surprised, and tempted, just last evening at whole foods
grand/fairview, 2?' tall penguins, tall and handsome, but did not quite
manage to separate me from $25.
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From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 09:29:22 2011
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:22 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguin prize at Dave and Busters
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9AsaTX-BZSxL3saim1zf=J85E=qtodWNn-i1xbynVrX7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111127215053.3a67bef2583afde7badc7a76@jasonhsu.com>
	<CAD+dB9AsaTX-BZSxL3saim1zf=J85E=qtodWNn-i1xbynVrX7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEH+qtbVb0dV=UqeoJeRbbH_WKUKzqdgCCrZ8ZMG9264Cg@mail.gmail.com>

FYI for those interested there will be live penguins at Linden Hills
Reindeer Days this year:

http://www.lindenhillsbusiness.com/events.php

-Erik

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 9:07 AM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 21:50, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>>
>> I was at Dave and Busters last Wednesday (with the 20s and 30s Meetup
>> group), and I noticed that one of the prizes in the prize shop was a stuffed
>> penguin. ?OK, OK, it was from the movie _Penguins of Madagascar_. ?But you
>> know you're a Linux geek when you have a soft spot for penguins. ?(No, I
>> didn't buy the penguin. ?I used some of the tickets I won to buy candy and
>> gave the rest away to another member of the Meetup group who wanted to buy a
>> coffee maker.)
>
> i also was surprised, and tempted, just last evening at whole foods
> grand/fairview, 2?' tall penguins, tall and handsome, but did not quite
> manage to separate me from $25.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
http://mitc0185.com/

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Mon Nov 28 14:29:10 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:29:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
Message-ID: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>

any such thing as a fast retrain dsl modem, that would work with local centurylink lines?  my searches coughed up patents but not modems.

the TCFMeetinghouse apparently has a line that's fine for voice but the actiontec q1000 (presuming that's what they have) spends alot of time doing retrains, leaving folk to pull their hair and gnash their teeth.  if you've ever tried to get qwest to fix a noisy line you know it's easier to pull those teeth.  so i wonder about the modem technology.  clearly they work well with nice quiet lines, but i'd say the garden variety modems are not at all robust with a bit of noise.  seems like better designs should be possible.

(i have the same to say about the robustness of the linux IP stack, but that's a different topic.)
tia,
-g

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 14:55:01 2011
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:55:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
In-Reply-To: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
References: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
Message-ID: <CADdM08rF-8-sUUup3r5j8pWF=vCSwR59DBVA57SRMLbqFKbSiw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 2:29 PM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> any such thing as a fast retrain dsl modem, that would work with local centurylink lines? ?my searches coughed up patents but not modems.

What type of DSL circuit is this for? Is it a "legacy" ADSL line? If
so, prepare for an uphill fight. As a side-effect of their VDSL2
service, they've increased by several orders of magnitude the amount
of crosstalk that happens between your demarc and the neighborhood
fiber POP. If you're a subscriber to the new service, this isn't a
problem, but if you have the old ADSL service, the signal from the
DSLAM is coming from much further away and is competing with crosstalk
from the neighborhood fiber POP in the copper bundle.

I went through this last spring at my house, and was unsuccessful in
trying to convince Qwest (at the time) to remedy the situation.

Is is rumored (on broadbandreports.com and elsewhere) that Century
Link is not putting any effort towards helping out ADSL customers with
poor SNR as an attempt to get them to upgrade to the VDSL2 service.

-Erik

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Mon Nov 28 15:03:25 2011
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:03:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
In-Reply-To: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
References: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
Message-ID: <1322514205.25887.52.camel@sysadmin3a>

While I can't assist much with your direct question
(training/retraining)... I will say we've had remarkably good success
with ZyXEL brand DSL (DSLAMS and CPE Routers) compared to Zhone brand.
Actiontec seems to be pretty decent but a different router altogether
might make a difference for you.
I remember at one point I had a customer using a Netgear or 3Com brand
DSL for their Qwest DSL service. This was a number of years ago and
possibly could have been before the change to DMT.

Another couple of thoughts are line length to the DSLAM affects your
SNR, if your at the upper limit on length there may not be much that can
be done about the signal attenuation due to distance where even a little
noise can make a big difference.

Then lastly there are often times things you can do yourself about noise
depending on the source of the noise (or some of the noise). There are
various DSL test tools, possibly some you could find used for an
acceptable price that can help identify noise sources so you can try and
take protective action against those sources.
If you go down that road, a few test equipment brands to check out (in
no particular order): JDSU, Fluke, Noyes, and Exfo.
I think there are some places you can rent test equipment from too
though I've never actually looked into it, only heard of it.


On Mon, 2011-11-28 at 14:29 -0600, gregrwm wrote:

> any such thing as a fast retrain dsl modem, that would work with local centurylink lines?  my searches coughed up patents but not modems.
> 
> the TCFMeetinghouse apparently has a line that's fine for voice but the actiontec q1000 (presuming that's what they have) spends alot of time doing retrains, leaving folk to pull their hair and gnash their teeth.  if you've ever tried to get qwest to fix a noisy line you know it's easier to pull those teeth.  so i wonder about the modem technology.  clearly they work well with nice quiet lines, but i'd say the garden variety modems are not at all robust with a bit of noise.  seems like better designs should be possible.
> 
> (i have the same to say about the robustness of the linux IP stack, but that's a different topic.)
> tia,
> -g
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Mon Nov 28 15:09:24 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:09:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] midi
Message-ID: <20111128210924.571F82F0084@okra.fo4.net>

what's that 3rd jack on garden variety soundcards?  midi?  what cable do i need to connect to my yamaha PSR-275?  also open to suggestions of good fun and educational musicware for my kiddos..
tia,
-g

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 15:15:05 2011
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:15:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] midi
In-Reply-To: <20111128210924.571F82F0084@okra.fo4.net>
References: <20111128210924.571F82F0084@okra.fo4.net>
Message-ID: <CADdM08rXH8g-Ygxx0VanWZFN6oNk15ZkAztcB+o0Z8UBiG8tSg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:09 PM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> what's that 3rd jack on garden variety soundcards?

The three jacks are typically:

- stereo line out
- mic in
- stereo line in

At least that's what I've seen. Looking up the manual for your
specific card should show you exactly what it is.

> midi?

Doubtful.

> what cable do i need to connect to my yamaha PSR-275?

If you just want to dump audio into the computer (for recording,
processing, etc.) then you'll just need a quarter-inch stereo
(assuming the PSR-275 has a stereo output) to a 3.5mm mini stereo male
plug. If the keyboard has separate outputs for L and R then you'll
need some sort of wye adaptor.

If, on the other hand, you wanted to connect via MIDI, then you'll
need to get a USB MIDI adaptor (unless you're able to determine that
your soundcard can accept MIDI input.

-Erik

From tclug at beitsahour.net  Mon Nov 28 14:58:47 2011
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 14:58:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
In-Reply-To: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
References: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
Message-ID: <CAMg8xauirM6YWfY3RBe4T7Z+V_yn2prHT3aaBbddnsfCSOhMyQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 14:29, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> any such thing as a fast retrain dsl modem, that would work with local centurylink lines? ?my searches coughed up patents but not modems.
>
> the TCFMeetinghouse apparently has a line that's fine for voice but the actiontec q1000 (presuming that's what they have) spends alot of time doing retrains, leaving folk to pull their hair and gnash their teeth. ?if you've ever tried to get qwest to fix a noisy line you know it's easier to pull those teeth. ?so i wonder about the modem technology. ?clearly they work well with nice quiet lines, but i'd say the garden variety modems are not at all robust with a bit of noise. ?seems like better designs should be possible.
>
> (i have the same to say about the robustness of the linux IP stack, but that's a different topic.)
> tia,

If your modem keeps retraining then you need to fix your phone lines,
eliminate noise producers or install filters where needed.

I've been using the Q1000 for 4 years now or so, and it has been rock
solid. In my last apartment i was at the edge of Qwest service (in the
franklin/riverside area strangely enough) and it would cough every now
and then. In my current house, since they fixed *something* on the
telephone pole, i've had rock solid service.

Once thing you may want to do is to set your modem up as a transparent
bridge and then do PPPoE on your router/firewall. you gain an extra IP
and if your isp supports it (which mine does) you get to use IPv6
natively.

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 28 15:33:18 2011
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:33:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
In-Reply-To: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
References: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111281530340.4168@Dragon>

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011, gregrwm wrote:

> any such thing as a fast retrain dsl modem, that would work with local centurylink lines?  my searches coughed up patents but not modems.

I had Qwest DSL for over a decade and (sadly) cancelled it recently, but 
for most of that time it's been riding a Cisco 678 (and before that, a 
Cisco 675). That thing has been working perfectly, non-stop and without so 
much as a hitch for years.

I could never get the super-awesome-fast DSLs because I'm too far from the 
CO, but hey.


-Yaron

--

From florin at iucha.net  Mon Nov 28 17:23:13 2011
From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:23:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] midi
In-Reply-To: <20111128210924.571F82F0084@okra.fo4.net>
References: <20111128210924.571F82F0084@okra.fo4.net>
Message-ID: <20111128232313.GD28757@styx.iucha.org>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 03:09:24PM -0600, gregrwm wrote:
> what's that 3rd jack on garden variety soundcards?  midi?

This is what MIDI connector on sound cards looks like:
   http://www.musiconmypc.co.uk/media/articles/gameport.jpg

It is the "fat" port at the bottom of this card:
   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/KL_Creative_Labs_Soundblaster_Live_Value_CT4670.jpg

Cheers,
florin

-- 
Don't question authority!  They don't know either.
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From smcgrath23 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 17:26:03 2011
From: smcgrath23 at gmail.com (Steve McGrath)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:26:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111281530340.4168@Dragon>
References: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111281530340.4168@Dragon>
Message-ID: <CAO2sc9Qx4vTDfUu4kvt5X5PZy_632TpagyBT5CqVXVaJ1u7s8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 28, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Yaron <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011, gregrwm wrote:
>
>> any such thing as a fast retrain dsl modem, that would work with local
>> centurylink lines? ?my searches coughed up patents but not modems.

Depending on your location, it's entirely possible that there's a
shiny new VDSL node just a block or two away. That was my problem, I
was getting terrible SNR on my ADSL line, with frequent retrains,
because of all the interference from the new VDSL service. As soon as
they moved my line over to the VDSL node and issued me a new modem,
it's been perfect. There was no additional cost to me.

-Steve


-- 
If it ain't broke, you're not using a new enough version

From kcbnac at gmail.com  Mon Nov 28 20:42:54 2011
From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman)
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 20:42:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
In-Reply-To: <CAO2sc9Qx4vTDfUu4kvt5X5PZy_632TpagyBT5CqVXVaJ1u7s8Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111128202910.CAC552F0084@okra.fo4.net>
	<alpine.DEB.2.02.1111281530340.4168@Dragon>
	<CAO2sc9Qx4vTDfUu4kvt5X5PZy_632TpagyBT5CqVXVaJ1u7s8Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMfBFyLbK3G-0rS5=hT5Xxd0vC8Zx7BQMnawAHb2ccb8u9cayw@mail.gmail.com>

Heh, I WISH I had the problems because I was using the old and they
had the new stuff here.  (896Kbps upload currently, the new tech will
be 5Mbit - the thing I care about - 7MBit down is plenty.  Want to
host a Minecraft server without lagging out at 5 people like I am
currently; and yes, that is with the CraftProxy caching system
installed)

From n0nas at amsat.org  Tue Nov 29 08:20:47 2011
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Doug Reed)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 08:20:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.4685.1322522607.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.4685.1322522607.1078.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <4ED4EA3F.4020606@amsat.org>

My experience with Qwest ADSL was good, but only after complaining about 
dropouts and poor service caused them to send out a computer/DSL tech 
rather than the first guy on the list. The first guy was only able to 
say, yup, its weak and noisy, just like I told them. He exhausted his 
limited set of diagnostic methods and scheduled a callback from the next 
higher tier of DSL service tech. The DSL tech had the equipment to look 
at the line, see the levels and noise at my end. He checked the DSLAM 
end, replaced a bad DSLAM card, came back and found it was stronger but 
still had noise and distortion.

He scheduled another service call with a wiring crew to check the 
physical line between the DSLAM and my house. They found and removed 
five "line taps" on the 1/2 mile copper pair between the DSLAM and my 
house. After that, signal levels were much better, signal quality was 
very good, and I never had another lick of problem with the connection 
dropping out.

I don't know if the bad DSLAM output was real or not, or if it was 
caused by operating into a wildly out-of-spec line for a couple years. 
But the root of my problem was the old copper lines that had been 
installed well before 1960. At that time it was common to string a main 
bundle and tap off it for every street branching off the main street. 
These "line taps" act like unterminated transmission lines and cause 
reflections to appear on the main line, which in turn make it harder to 
demodulate the DSL carriers. It is the same problem that occurs when you 
operate a hard drive or floppy drive on the middle connector of a cable 
with no termination at the far end.

Basically, Qwest was trying to save money by having the user install the 
DSL modem as plug-n-play. If you happen to be on a line with "clean 
copper" it probably worked just fine. And even mine worked fairly well, 
I just couldn't reliably hit full speed and had dropouts at various 
times of the day. It was two years before it got bad enough for me to 
complain about it because I didn't know it should be better than it was....

Doug Reed.
N St Paul.

From cncole at earthlink.net  Tue Nov 29 13:44:37 2011
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 13:44:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain?  spec problems..
In-Reply-To: <4ED4EA3F.4020606@amsat.org>
Message-ID: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEBADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Doug Reed
>
> My experience with Qwest ADSL was good, but only after complaining about
> dropouts and poor service caused them to send out a computer/DSL tech
> rather than the first guy on the list. The first guy was only able to
> say, yup, its weak and noisy, just like I told them. He exhausted his
> limited set of diagnostic methods and scheduled a callback from the next
> higher tier of DSL service tech. The DSL tech had the equipment to look
> at the line, see the levels and noise at my end. ....

Relevant old story:  I had significant problems with my Qwest phone lines when I first moved to the Eagan edge of Apple Valley in
1986.  After several useless service calls, I contacted engineering friends who worked for AT&T to inquire about specs.  I find it
interesting to note that the couple had met when undergrads at MIT.  She, then a young mom, was a hardware engineer (he software),
who as a hobby interest had bought and assembled a small-town central office switching system in their garage.  Greg told me that
Carolyn would know my answer - and she did.  She had and sent the relevant spec pages, and pointed out that I could easily verify
the POTS spec with a DVM.  It was out of clearly way out of spec.

Turns out the phone company stands to lose their ICC-approved billing rates if caught and allowing out-of-spec operation.  My
service call reporting the out-of-spec data was almost instantly escalated to the engineering manager.  He was cordial, but
efficient.  When I told him the measurement and the spec page number, he said he would be at my house withing 1/2 hour, and he was -
along with two of his guys.  They confirmed the data, and he sent them off to a distribution box about 3 miles away while we "talked
shop".  Due to lots of new construction requiring many expansions to that box, they had over-extended lines (distance without
boosters) and had not had the needed boosters due to demand...and expense  My problems were all fixed within a few hours.  Had to
call again many months later for another problem.  Turned out one of the field guys had pinched a line in the cabinet door, leaving
it badly unbalanced.  Being on a first name basis with the manager got quick attention  :-)

DSL tests aren't as simple, but probably have similar force of ICC regulation behind them.  Likely that just claiming the DSL line
is out of spec and insisting on getting their measurement report from a qualified DSL service tech would be enough to get any needed
corrective action in the future.


Chuck



From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Nov 29 14:47:45 2011
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 14:47:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] fast retrain? spec problems..
In-Reply-To: <KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEBADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
References: <4ED4EA3F.4020606@amsat.org>
	<KBELLBDJKGDCAHIDFNLLCEBADHAA.cncole@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9C7ieYZv0F2xk8zW2-rF1-bJk6j2s=+EJB5Rt9codkFXQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
> > My experience with Qwest ADSL was good, but only after complaining about
> > dropouts and poor service caused them to send out a computer/DSL tech
> > rather than the first guy on the list. The first guy was only able to
> > say, yup, its weak and noisy, just like I told them. He exhausted his
> > limited set of diagnostic methods and scheduled a callback from the next
> > higher tier of DSL service tech. The DSL tech had the equipment to look
> > at the line, see the levels and noise at my end. ....
>
> Relevant old story:  I had significant problems with my Qwest phone lines
> when I first moved to the Eagan edge of Apple Valley in
> 1986.  After several useless service calls, I contacted engineering
> friends who worked for AT&T to inquire about specs.  I find it
> interesting to note that the couple had met when undergrads at MIT.  She,
> then a young mom, was a hardware engineer (he software),
> who as a hobby interest had bought and assembled a small-town central
> office switching system in their garage.  Greg told me that
> Carolyn would know my answer - and she did.  She had and sent the relevant
> spec pages, and pointed out that I could easily verify
> the POTS spec with a DVM.  It was out of clearly way out of spec.
>
> Turns out the phone company stands to lose their ICC-approved billing
> rates if caught and allowing out-of-spec operation.  My
> service call reporting the out-of-spec data was almost instantly escalated
> to the engineering manager.  He was cordial, but
> efficient.  When I told him the measurement and the spec page number, he
> said he would be at my house withing 1/2 hour, and he was -
> along with two of his guys.  They confirmed the data, and he sent them off
> to a distribution box about 3 miles away while we "talked
> shop".  Due to lots of new construction requiring many expansions to that
> box, they had over-extended lines (distance without
> boosters) and had not had the needed boosters due to demand...and expense
>  My problems were all fixed within a few hours.  Had to
> call again many months later for another problem.  Turned out one of the
> field guys had pinched a line in the cabinet door, leaving
> it badly unbalanced.  Being on a first name basis with the manager got
> quick attention  :-)
>
> DSL tests aren't as simple, but probably have similar force of ICC
> regulation behind them.  Likely that just claiming the DSL line
> is out of spec and insisting on getting their measurement report from a
> qualified DSL service tech would be enough to get any needed
> corrective action in the future.
>

interesting points chuck.  i've certainly been through the mill with qwest
support in the past, scads of phone calls almost always an hour or more
each, many dropped calls, many deadend conversations, numerous service
appointments, always requiring a scheduled 4 hour wait, several noshows,
numerous "no problems found", several actual fixes to the wire, and after
each actual fix the quality did actually improve, but it took many of those
before finally having a reliable connection.  now we're working with a
different, likely same age wire at the same location.  ATM.  VDSL
unavailable there.  it sure would be nice to know the wizard's incantation
to get it all fixed in one call.  your suggestions seem pertinent.  further
suggestions to that end still welcome.
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Nov 30 08:54:54 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 08:54:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
Message-ID: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>

Guys,

My day job is looking for a good VM lead and I thought of you. Well, ok, I thought you could get me some good leads.

We're looking into an alternative to VMWare vSphere 5, one that will run under whatever OS (we're not sold to Windows for our base configuration) and will support any OS on top of it (BSD, Linux, Windows, etc.).

Links to whitepapers and pricing (if applicable) would also be appreciated. We're going to utilize most of this machine to run various video surveillance solutions but will also reserve some smaller slices for our network communications (DNS, DHCP, ipTables, Nagios, etc.).

Thanks!

--
Ryan

From jmore at starmind.org  Wed Nov 30 09:00:41 2011
From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:00:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
In-Reply-To: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
References: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3GUt_Q8N6E9SmqwQ2frS16BFkGrNAz5dnD17D08Qrz-t+x6A@mail.gmail.com>

The version of Xen sold by Citrix works well for this.  There were
Windows driver issues back when I started with it, but I think those
are resolved now.  If you're planning to automate the system with
puppet or chef, I think you'll get the best results with Xen.

If you want to do it manually, you might find VirtualBox to be more
user friendly.  It can be challenging to do complicated networking
with that system, but once it's up it tends to be rather easy to
manage.

-Josh

On Wed, Nov 30, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> Guys,
>
> My day job is looking for a good VM lead and I thought of you. Well, ok, I thought you could get me some good leads.
>
> We're looking into an alternative to VMWare vSphere 5, one that will run under whatever OS (we're not sold to Windows for our base configuration) and will support any OS on top of it (BSD, Linux, Windows, etc.).
>
> Links to whitepapers and pricing (if applicable) would also be appreciated. We're going to utilize most of this machine to run various video surveillance solutions but will also reserve some smaller slices for our network communications (DNS, DHCP, ipTables, Nagios, etc.).
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Ryan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com  Wed Nov 30 09:39:47 2011
From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:39:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
References: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
Message-ID: <0000235794@penguinpackets.com>

I have been running Libvirt with the KVM / Qemu Linux hypervisor. ?I have
had success with Windows Server 2008 R2, Windows Server 2003, and many
instances of Linux without issue. ?I have not done any BSD installs to date,
so I can't speak to a BSD install under KVM/Qemu.  

The drawback with the virt-manager tool is that it seems to be Linux only
(someone tried a port at one point, but I can't seem to find it). ?The virsh
shell rocks via ssh session from your smart phone though, so you might not
need it. ?Recent Ubuntu server releases make it simple to install by adding
it as a pre-defined package selection for a VM host during install, but it
might be good to set it all up under Slackware so you know all the moving
parts :-)  

Kelly Black
  
>  Wed Nov 30 2011 08:54:54 AM CST from  "Ryan Coleman" <ryanjcole at me.com> 
>Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
>
>  
> Guys,
> 
> My day job is looking for a good VM lead and I thought of you. Well, ok, I
>thought you could get me some good leads.
> 
> We're looking into an alternative to VMWare vSphere 5, one that will run
>under whatever OS (we're not sold to Windows for our base configuration) and
>will support any OS on top of it (BSD, Linux, Windows, etc.).
> 
> Links to whitepapers and pricing (if applicable) would also be appreciated.
>We're going to utilize most of this machine to run various video surveillance
>solutions but will also reserve some smaller slices for our network
>communications (DNS, DHCP, ipTables, Nagios, etc.).
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> --
> Ryan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
>
>
>  

  

?
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From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 13:01:54 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:01:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
In-Reply-To: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
References: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
Message-ID: <4ED67DA2.5020304@gmail.com>

On 11/30/2011 8:54 AM, Ryan Coleman cried from the depths of the abyss:
> Guys,
>
> My day job is looking for a good VM lead and I thought of you. Well,
> ok, I thought you could get me some good leads.
>
> We're looking into an alternative to VMWare vSphere 5, one that will
> run under whatever OS (we're not sold to Windows for our base
> configuration) and will support any OS on top of it (BSD, Linux,
> Windows, etc.).
>
> Links to whitepapers and pricing (if applicable) would also be
> appreciated. We're going to utilize most of this machine to run
> various video surveillance solutions but will also reserve some
> smaller slices for our network communications (DNS, DHCP, ipTables,
> Nagios, etc.).
>


Hi Ryan.  I am curious to know if you are using VMware now & don't like 
or want to use the latest ESXi 5, or is this something new for the company?

I am refurbing a recently decommissioned HP ml370 G5, and I was 
planning/thinking actually about giving vShpere 5 a try.

Just curious what the motivation behind this is.

Thanks!

Bob

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Wed Nov 30 13:23:26 2011
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 13:23:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
In-Reply-To: <0000235794@penguinpackets.com>
References: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
	<0000235794@penguinpackets.com>
Message-ID: <4ED682AE.5030005@gmail.com>

On 11/30/2011 9:39 AM, kelly cried from the depths of the abyss:
> I have been running Libvirt with the KVM / Qemu Linux hypervisor.  I
> have had success with Windows Server 2008 R2, Windows Server 2003, and
> many instances of Linux without issue.  I have not done any BSD installs
> to date, so I can't speak to a BSD install under KVM/Qemu.
>
> The drawback with the virt-manager tool is that it seems to be Linux
> only (someone tried a port at one point, but I can't seem to find it).
>   The virsh shell rocks via ssh session from your smart phone though, so
> you might not need it.  Recent Ubuntu server releases make it simple to
> install by adding it as a pre-defined package selection for a VM host
> during install, but it might be good to set it all up under Slackware so
> you know all the moving parts :-)
>
> Kelly Black

Thanks for the tip Kelly!  I am in the process of consolidating my test 
environment at work, and I think I am going to give this a try. 
Slackware is always my default, so this should work well.  I am happy to 
see 2008r2 works.  A couple of my test boxes need that and other flavors 
of M$, and the rest are mainly Slack boxes.  All my test boxes are 
running on VMware workstation, or a pile/stack of old desktops turned 
server.  Not ideal, and I need to stop the insanity.

The timing of this thread is amazing.  I just finished ordering a bunch 
of parts to refresh a recently unemployed HP server over here just for 
this purpose.  I was going to give VMware vSphere 5 a try, but this 
looks like it more up my alley.

Thanks!

Bob

From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Nov 30 14:02:41 2011
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:02:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
In-Reply-To: <4ED67DA2.5020304@gmail.com>
References: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
	<4ED67DA2.5020304@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50B58F4F-13A6-448A-8F8D-502C86EB88AD@me.com>

We are not using anything at the moment. It's for showing our customers what we have for software... and frankly a couple of the video programs don't play well with others.

On Nov 30, 2011, at 1:01 PM, Mr. B-o-B wrote:

> On 11/30/2011 8:54 AM, Ryan Coleman cried from the depths of the abyss:
>> Guys,
>> 
>> My day job is looking for a good VM lead and I thought of you. Well,
>> ok, I thought you could get me some good leads.
>> 
>> We're looking into an alternative to VMWare vSphere 5, one that will
>> run under whatever OS (we're not sold to Windows for our base
>> configuration) and will support any OS on top of it (BSD, Linux,
>> Windows, etc.).
>> 
>> Links to whitepapers and pricing (if applicable) would also be
>> appreciated. We're going to utilize most of this machine to run
>> various video surveillance solutions but will also reserve some
>> smaller slices for our network communications (DNS, DHCP, ipTables,
>> Nagios, etc.).
>> 
> 
> 
> Hi Ryan.  I am curious to know if you are using VMware now & don't like or want to use the latest ESXi 5, or is this something new for the company?
> 
> I am refurbing a recently decommissioned HP ml370 G5, and I was planning/thinking actually about giving vShpere 5 a try.
> 
> Just curious what the motivation behind this is.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com  Wed Nov 30 14:34:17 2011
From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:34:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
References: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
	<0000235794@penguinpackets.com> <4ED682AE.5030005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0000235884@penguinpackets.com>

>  
>Wed Nov 30 2011 01:23:26 PM CST from  "Mr. B-o-B" <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> 
>Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
>
>    
>>
>>

>  
>
>  Thanks for the tip Kelly!  I am in the process of consolidating my test 
> environment at work, and I think I am going to give this a try. 
> Slackware is always my default, so this should work well.  I am happy to 
> see 2008r2 works.  A couple of my test boxes need that and other flavors 
> of M$, and the rest are mainly Slack boxes.  All my test boxes are 
> running on VMware workstation, or a pile/stack of old desktops turned 
> server.  Not ideal, and I need to stop the insanity.
> 
> The timing of this thread is amazing.  I just finished ordering a bunch 
> of parts to refresh a recently unemployed HP server over here just for 
> this purpose.  I was going to give VMware vSphere 5 a try, but this 
> looks like it more up my alley.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Bob
>
>  

  No problem Bob. ?Glad to share. ?I knew I found the right VM software
when I was able to do hardware pass-through for an old serial analog modem
for paging from a Nagios vm instance and everything just worked.

  


  


  Kelly
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From gsker at skerbitz.org  Wed Nov 30 19:36:05 2011
From: gsker at skerbitz.org (Gerry)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2011 19:36:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Virtual Platform leads
In-Reply-To: <4ED682AE.5030005@gmail.com>
References: <69CA54C7-77CD-4179-B854-774F6804254D@me.com>
	<0000235794@penguinpackets.com> <4ED682AE.5030005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1111301911340.2663@localhost6.localdomain6>

On Wed, 30 Nov 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote:

> On 11/30/2011 9:39 AM, kelly cried from the depths of the abyss:
>> I have been running Libvirt with the KVM / Qemu Linux hypervisor.  I have had 
>> success with Windows Server 2008 R2, Windows Server 2003, and many instances 
>> of Linux without issue.  I have not done any BSD installs to date, so I can't 
>> speak to a BSD install under KVM/Qemu.
>> 
>> The drawback with the virt-manager tool is that it seems to be Linux only 
>> (someone tried a port at one point, but I can't seem to find it).
>>   The virsh shell rocks via ssh session from your smart phone though, so
>> you might not need it.  Recent Ubuntu server releases make it simple to
>> install by adding it as a pre-defined package selection for a VM host
>> during install, but it might be good to set it all up under Slackware so
>> you know all the moving parts :-)
>> 
>> Kelly Black
>
> Thanks for the tip Kelly!  I am in the process of consolidating my test 
> environment at work, and I think I am going to give this a try. Slackware is 
> always my default, so this should work well.  I am happy to see 2008r2 works. 
> A couple of my test boxes need that and other flavors of M$, and the rest are 
> mainly Slack boxes.  All my test boxes are running on VMware workstation, or 
> a pile/stack of old desktops turned server.  Not ideal, and I need to stop 
> the insanity.
>
> The timing of this thread is amazing.  I just finished ordering a bunch of 
> parts to refresh a recently unemployed HP server over here just for this 
> purpose.  I was going to give VMware vSphere 5 a try, but this looks like it 
> more up my alley.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bob
Here's a +1 for the libvirt setup.
I too have been using libvirt/qemu-kvm on Ubuntu Lucid at my day job.
For servers virt-manager (a graphical tool) didn't buy me anything. It's fun on 
the desktop, but all the servers (linux) are set up to talk to the serial 
console which you can get to with the virsh command, 'console'.

It's been about a year and a half since we started using it and we're still 
moving servers to this environment.  The quick boot is a big selling 
point for me. I guess I have about 25 guests now. 
I've been very satisfied.  I can do a command line install by a simple 
modification to the netboot iso but more often I just create the image from a 
base image and a template xml file.

I installed Windows7-64 on it on my desktop to debug an application this past 
week using the standard company image and it's been running fine. I failed to 
get that image to load in VirtualBox and switched to kvm just to try it. It 
worked. (our environment did require a bridged interface to allow Config Manager 
and other pieces of the MS toolset to work.)

I can access it with vnc localhost so virt-manager is still really not needed.
Certainly good enough for what I do on Windows but I can't speak to whether I'd 
run a bunch of Windows servers on it.


Gerry