From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 18:40:46 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:40:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely disheartening that every set of instructions I find anywhere fails. They all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu 10.10 with RAID 1 on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. > > This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time > for me. I have to be honest I haven't done this on Ubuntu, but I did > just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist > so this should work fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and > a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware > install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not > necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. > > I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or > anything else Ubuntu might have that you like). One disk 1 (lets call > it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). > Change the types on both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type > "FD". I couldn't get through even that part. The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I should use GNU parted. In gparted I can delete partitions but not so much that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to know what I am supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an msdos partition? How is this done? Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am dying to try them) because I couldn't get past this initial step. Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. With at least one of them I get all the way through, it seems like it has worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I look for ways to fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete everything and start over. After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do it for me. Can any of you do this? How much do you want? Mike From tlunde at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 07:19:16 2011 From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 07:19:16 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> Mike - If you don't care about the current contents of either disk, here is one way to get rid of the error message about GUID partitions being present. Boot from a live CD with just these two hard drives attached to the system. Once booted, open up a terminal window. Use the df command to see if anything on either drive has been mounted. If so, they will appear as /dev/sda1 (or similar). No partitions may have been mounted, if there is just junk on the drives. If a partition has been mounted, use the command sudo umount /dev/sda1 (or whatever sd partitions you saw from the df command) to remove them from the df output. Use the command ls /dev/sd* to verify that the system "sees" the two drives and that they are listed as sda and sdb. (You'll want to adjust the letters below if they come up as something else.) Then, issue this command: sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1024 count=1024 and do it again for sdb and any partition tables on the drives will be gone. Now, you should be able to follow the installation instructions you've had. Thomas On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely disheartening that every set of instructions I find anywhere fails. They all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu 10.10 with RAID 1 on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. > > I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... > > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > >> Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. >> >> This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time for me. I have to be honest I haven't done this on Ubuntu, but I did just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist so this should work fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. >> >> I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or anything else Ubuntu might have that you like). One disk 1 (lets call it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). Change the types on both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type "FD". > > I couldn't get through even that part. > > The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I should use GNU parted. In gparted I can delete partitions but not so much that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to know what I am supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an msdos partition? How is this done? > > Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am dying to try them) because I couldn't get past this initial step. > > Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. With at least one of them I get all the way through, it seems like it has worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I look for ways to fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete everything and start over. > > After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do it for me. Can any of you do this? How much do you want? > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From gm5729 at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 12:01:50 2011 From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gk) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:01:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317574910.13897.4.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 12:00 -0500, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote: > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > Alternate install (Mike Miller) > 2. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > Alternate install (Thomas Lunde) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:40:46 -0500 (CDT) > From: Mike Miller > To: TCLUG Mailing List > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu > 10.10 Alternate install > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely > disheartening that every set of instructions I find anywhere fails. They > all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu > 10.10 with RAID 1 on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it > maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. > > I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... > > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > > > Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. > > > > This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time > > for me. I have to be honest I haven't done this on Ubuntu, but I did > > just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist > > so this should work fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and > > a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware > > install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not > > necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. > > > > I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or > > anything else Ubuntu might have that you like). One disk 1 (lets call > > it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). > > Change the types on both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type > > "FD". > > I couldn't get through even that part. > > The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I > should use GNU parted. In gparted I can delete partitions but not so much > that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to > know what I am supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an > msdos partition? How is this done? > > Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am > dying to try them) because I couldn't get past this initial step. > > Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. > With at least one of them I get all the way through, it seems like it has > worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I > look for ways to fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete > everything and start over. > > After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do > it for me. Can any of you do this? How much do you want? > > Mike > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 07:19:16 -0500 > From: Thomas Lunde > To: TCLUG Mailing List > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu > 10.10 Alternate install > Message-ID: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Mike - > > If you don't care about the current contents of either disk, here is one way to get rid of the error message about GUID partitions being present. > > Boot from a live CD with just these two hard drives attached to the system. Once booted, open up a terminal window. Use the df command to see if anything on either drive has been mounted. If so, they will appear as /dev/sda1 (or similar). No partitions may have been mounted, if there is just junk on the drives. If a partition has been mounted, use the command sudo umount /dev/sda1 (or whatever sd partitions you saw from the df command) to remove them from the df output. > > Use the command ls /dev/sd* to verify that the system "sees" the two drives and that they are listed as sda and sdb. (You'll want to adjust the letters below if they come up as something else.) > > Then, issue this command: > sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1024 count=1024 > and do it again for sdb and any partition tables on the drives will be gone. > > Now, you should be able to follow the installation instructions you've had. > > Thomas > > > > On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > > > I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely disheartening that every set of instructions I find anywhere fails. They all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu 10.10 with RAID 1 on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. > > > > I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > > > >> Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. > >> > >> This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time for me. I have to be honest I haven't done this on Ubuntu, but I did just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist so this should work fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. > >> > >> I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or anything else Ubuntu might have that you like). One disk 1 (lets call it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). Change the types on both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type "FD". > > > > I couldn't get through even that part. > > > > The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I should use GNU parted. In gparted I can delete partitions but not so much that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to know what I am supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an msdos partition? How is this done? > > > > Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am dying to try them) because I couldn't get past this initial step. > > > > Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. With at least one of them I get all the way through, it seems like it has worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I look for ways to fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete everything and start over. > > > > After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do it for me. Can any of you do this? How much do you want? > > > > Mike > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 > ***************************************** Your limitation may be the Bios with how many drives it can see. ie 2tb limit vs 4tb. -- -- gk http://gm5729.blogspot.com Please conserve natural resources and print out this email if absolutely necessary. If you need a copy save as a PDF/DJVU format on your computer. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 490 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 14:18:45 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 14:18:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install In-Reply-To: <1317574910.13897.4.camel@localhost> References: <1317574910.13897.4.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, gk wrote: > Your limitation may be the Bios with how many drives it can see. ie 2tb > limit vs 4tb. Everything works fine in a normal alternate-CD RAID 1 install until it fails to install the grub2 loader. I have no reason to think this has anything to do with the sizes of drives. Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 16:39:40 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 16:39:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install In-Reply-To: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> References: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Thomas Lunde wrote: > If you don't care about the current contents of either disk, here is one > way to get rid of the error message about GUID partitions being present. > > Boot from a live CD with just these two hard drives attached to the > system. Once booted, open up a terminal window. Use the df command to > see if anything on either drive has been mounted. If so, they will > appear as /dev/sda1 (or similar). No partitions may have been mounted, > if there is just junk on the drives. If a partition has been mounted, > use the command sudo umount /dev/sda1 (or whatever sd partitions you saw > from the df command) to remove them from the df output. > > Use the command ls /dev/sd* to verify that the system "sees" the two > drives and that they are listed as sda and sdb. (You'll want to adjust > the letters below if they come up as something else.) > > Then, issue this command: > sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1024 count=1024 > and do it again for sdb and any partition tables on the drives will be gone. > > Now, you should be able to follow the installation instructions you've > had. I did that, then used the alternate CD and it fails in the same way that it always fails -- at the end when it tries to install the grub2 loader. I also tried to use fdisk, but it does the same thing as before: $ sudo fdisk /dev/sda WARNING: GPT (GUID Partition Table) detected on '/dev/sda'! The util fdisk doesn't support GPT. Use GNU Parted. Device contains neither a valid DOS partition table, nor Sun, SGI or OSF disklabel Building a new DOS disklabel with disk identifier 0xd9ac1ca5. Changes will remain in memory only, until you decide to write them. After that, of course, the previous content won't be recoverable. I can make a menu list for fdisk options but I don't know which to choose. So I'm still not clear on what I'm supposed to do with fdisk. After I run fdisk the B-o-B instructions might be good, but I can't get there, yet. The sad thing is that after all these dozens of hours of installing, partitioning, re-installing, etc., I feel that it is all there, all installed and ready, but it just won't boot. This seems to describe the problem I am having: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1631358 I can identify with the guy who spent "three weeks pulling his hair out" only to buy a hardware raid instead of using Ubuntu's software raid. My attempt to save money by using software raid was a very costly miscalculation. So I was trying yesterday to do what some of the readers of that thread seemed to think would solve the problem: "GRUB2 with GPT requires a 1mb partition with the bios_grub flag set (when done in the partitioner I think it's call 'reserved for boot bios') on the beginning of any drives you want to boot which is where it puts the grub kernel. sda and sdb in my case since I want this machine to boot with a degraded array." Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that I am able to understand exactly what this requires. I can't figure out how to do it. I note that Ubuntu alternate CD leaves 1 mb "FREE" before the first RAID partition. I also can't figure out how to install grub2 on the Ubuntu 10.10 (RAID 1) system that apparently has everything except for grub2. It's quite useless without it! The offer to pay someone to do this for me still holds. Mike From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com Sun Oct 2 20:06:30 2011 From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly) Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 20:06:30 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install References: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0000224409@penguinpackets.com> Mike, Here is the long answer (not exactly what you want, but will tell you exactly if you can get there with your current mobo and bios): http://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/ and more specifically the bios limits (and some tricks to work around some bios issues) - one of the issues that I ran in to that this guy seems to have figured out a way to get around is to run both gdisk and fdisk, but the fdisk is just used for making a valid partition table to satisfy the bios, but is not used for booting the system. http://www.rodsbooks.com/gdisk/bios.html#bios Shorter here, but less coherent: http://penguinpackets.com/~kelly/kblog/blog/01288983871 I usually use a current Sysrescuecd to set up partitions and just have Ubuntu install to what I created with Sysrescue (YMMV). Good luck! Kelly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 23:13:24 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 23:13:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: References: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Mike Miller wrote: > This seems to describe the problem I am having: > > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1631358 Yes!! I can't believe it finally is working. The major fix was given by B-o-B on July 12, 2011, in this same thread. It just took me awhile to figure out how to use it (with a tip from Thomas Lunde). I'll explain all of the steps below. I had two new 2TB HDDs and had been getting a bunch of junk (e.g., corrupted partitions) building up on them from repeated attempts at installing Ubuntu, but I didn't have any data on them. At one point gparted wouldn't even open -- it was crashing on startup and fdisk couldn't do anything (it recommended gparted). Luckily, Thomas Lunde on TCLUG gave me this tip: sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1024 count=1024 sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sdb bs=1024 count=1024 I used the Ubuntu 10.10 x64 Desktop Live CD to "try" Ubuntu and run those commands (from Application -> Terminal) and those that follow. My HDDs were /dev/sda and /dev/sdb. After that I opened gparted and it seemed to show there were problems with the drives, but it did show them and it didn't crash. In gparted I told it to create an MSDOS partition table. I believe I went into the "Device" menu to do that. I was only trying to make it so that I could use fdisk. After the two dd commands above, fdisk still couldn't work with the drives because of some residual GPT data on them, but now that gparted had created the MSDOS partition table, fdisk worked. sudo fdisk /dev/sda In fdisk I first ran recommended 'c' and 'u' commands (recommended in a note at fdisk startup). Then I used 'n' to create two new partitions (1 and 2), for root and swap, respectively, and I used 't' to change the type for both to fd (that's the hex code for the raid type). I exited with 'w'. The sfdisk command recommended by B-o-B to copy the partition info from /dev/sda to /dev/sdb did not work for me, so I simply repeated the exact steps I used on /dev/sda on /dev/sdb starting with this command: sudo fdisk /dev/sdb Next I ran these two commands (one line each) to create the raid: sudo mdadm --create /dev/md0 --level 1 --raid-devices 2 /dev/sda1 /dev/sdb1 --metadata=0.90 sudo mdadm --create /dev/md1 --level 1 --raid-devices 2 /dev/sda2 /dev/sdb2 --metadata=0.90 ...and I formatted the swap array: sudo mkswap /dev/md1 Luckily for me, that was all I needed from the B-o-B instructions because the grub boot loader ended up working without any extra steps. B-o-B next told me "Now start your install like normal. You should see /dev/md1 available for your swap, and /dev/md0 available for your root." Well, I tried using the Ubuntu 10.10 x64 Desktop CD first, but that didn't work -- it did not show the /dev/md? partitions. Looking from Live CD again, I didn't see them, but I probably wasn't looking the right way, because they extisted on some level. I know that because I next went back to the Alternate CD and it detected the RAID. The swap partition seemed to be ready to go, so I partitioned the big partition for root (mounted at /) using ext4. I let the Alt CD finish running and when it got to grub I was afraid, as always because of so many past failures, but it sailed right through it. B-o-B also recommended that I check the /etc/fstab file to make sure that "swap & / are pointing to /dev/md0 & /dev/md1": /dev/md1 swap swap defaults 0 0 /dev/md0 / ext3 defaults 1 1 I hope it isn't a problem, but after rebooting I see this instead: # proc /proc proc nodev,noexec,nosuid 0 0 # / was on /dev/md0 during installation UUID=f322a6dc-f6b7-4207-a1fb-4cace87ca2db / ext4 errors=remount-ro 0 1 /dev/md1 none swap sw 0 0 I think that's OK, but let me know if it doesn't look right. Anyway, it did reboot after installation and it looks beautiful. Thanks to everyone for the help, especially B-o-B and Thomas Lunde. Mike From nesius at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 23:27:55 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 23:27:55 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: References: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 11:13 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Mike Miller wrote: > > This seems to describe the problem I am having: >> >> http://ubuntuforums.org/**showthread.php?t=1631358 >> > > > Yes!! I can't believe it finally is working. > /me raises his drink in a toast to victory. Congratulations, and thanks for sharing the details of your victory effort. :) -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 02:22:15 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 02:22:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: References: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > Congratulations, and thanks for sharing the details of your victory > effort. It's the least I could do. It is yet another little victory for TCLUG and for those many email lists where we share all the good and bad things that happen to us and our computers. ;-) Mike From jmk at kaufman.eden-prairie.mn.us Mon Oct 3 05:41:11 2011 From: jmk at kaufman.eden-prairie.mn.us (James Kaufman) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 05:41:11 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Small Business Contract Message-ID: <4E899147.6080704@kaufman.eden-prairie.mn.us> I took on a contract to some ongoing work for a business in Shakopee. Most work can be done remotely via ssh. Customer needs work on supporting his web sites. The work ranges from the relatively easy (Apache URL rewriting) to more complex (high availability, redundant, auto-failover, web-sites.) I find myself working 80 hours/week on my normal day job and haven't been able to find the time to devote to outside contracts. Contact me if you are interested in some extra work ($50+/hour). I will arrange the introductions with the customer and then step out of the picture. Jim From gm5729 at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 07:06:23 2011 From: gm5729 at gmail.com (gk) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 07:06:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID wit GRUB2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317643583.28012.11.camel@localhost> On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 23:13 -0500, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote: > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 (gk) > 2. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > Alternate install (Mike Miller) > 3. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > Alternate install (Mike Miller) > 4. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > Alternate install (kelly) > 5. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > Alternate install [SOLVED] (Mike Miller) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:01:50 -0500 > From: gk > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 > Message-ID: <1317574910.13897.4.camel at localhost> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 12:00 -0500, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > wrote: > > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > Alternate install (Mike Miller) > > 2. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > Alternate install (Thomas Lunde) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:40:46 -0500 (CDT) > > From: Mike Miller > > To: TCLUG Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu > > 10.10 Alternate install > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > > I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely > > disheartening that every set of instructions I find anywhere fails. They > > all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu > > 10.10 with RAID 1 on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it > > maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. > > > > I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > > > > > Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. > > > > > > This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time > > > for me. I have to be honest I haven't done this on Ubuntu, but I did > > > just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist > > > so this should work fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and > > > a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware > > > install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not > > > necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. > > > > > > I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or > > > anything else Ubuntu might have that you like). One disk 1 (lets call > > > it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). > > > Change the types on both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type > > > "FD". > > > > I couldn't get through even that part. > > > > The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I > > should use GNU parted. In gparted I can delete partitions but not so much > > that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to > > know what I am supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an > > msdos partition? How is this done? > > > > Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am > > dying to try them) because I couldn't get past this initial step. > > > > Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. > > With at least one of them I get all the way through, it seems like it has > > worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I > > look for ways to fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete > > everything and start over. > > > > After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do > > it for me. Can any of you do this? How much do you want? > > > > Mike > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 07:19:16 -0500 > > From: Thomas Lunde > > To: TCLUG Mailing List > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu > > 10.10 Alternate install > > Message-ID: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62 at gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > Mike - > > > > If you don't care about the current contents of either disk, here is one way to get rid of the error message about GUID partitions being present. > > > > Boot from a live CD with just these two hard drives attached to the system. Once booted, open up a terminal window. Use the df command to see if anything on either drive has been mounted. If so, they will appear as /dev/sda1 (or similar). No partitions may have been mounted, if there is just junk on the drives. If a partition has been mounted, use the command sudo umount /dev/sda1 (or whatever sd partitions you saw from the df command) to remove them from the df output. > > > > Use the command ls /dev/sd* to verify that the system "sees" the two drives and that they are listed as sda and sdb. (You'll want to adjust the letters below if they come up as something else.) > > > > Then, issue this command: > > sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1024 count=1024 > > and do it again for sdb and any partition tables on the drives will be gone. > > > > Now, you should be able to follow the installation instructions you've had. > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > > > > > I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely disheartening that every set of instructions I find anywhere fails. They all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu 10.10 with RAID 1 on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. > > > > > > I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > > > > > >> Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. > > >> > > >> This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time for me. I have to be honest I haven't done this on Ubuntu, but I did just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist so this should work fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. > > >> > > >> I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or anything else Ubuntu might have that you like). One disk 1 (lets call it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). Change the types on both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type "FD". > > > > > > I couldn't get through even that part. > > > > > > The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I should use GNU parted. In gparted I can delete partitions but not so much that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to know what I am supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an msdos partition? How is this done? > > > > > > Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am dying to try them) because I couldn't get past this initial step. > > > > > > Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. With at least one of them I get all the way through, it seems like it has worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I look for ways to fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete everything and start over. > > > > > > After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do it for me. Can any of you do this? How much do you want? > > > > > > Mike > > > _______________________________________________ > > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 > > ***************************************** > > Your limitation may be the Bios with how many drives it can see. ie 2tb > limit vs 4tb. GRUB 2 should always be used with the GRUB2 Utility disk available. GRUB2 has to have a special 7E partition BEFORE the /boot partition which also needs to be separate. Then you can for the sake of argument have just a / partition. The numbering scheme is different for GRUB2 than GRUB1 and I have foundit best to use something like this.... /(hd0,1)/vmlinuz...... the same holds true with the kernel line. A set command will tell where the /root is located for example (hd0,2). That is why the Utility disk recommendation because sometimes the installer won't find the proper partition. The phrase "boot" always ends the section. I know this is not GRUB2 here but the mapping is a declaration that is made not only in fstab, but it MUST be declared in your modules that load at boot time. In my case loop/luks and fuse are declared and generated by mkinitcpio each time in specific order so the proper module will be available when needed. In this example it was easier to use labels vs. UUIDS which I prefer but UUIDS are used in in fstab. GRUB1 example for mapped devices akin to mapped for RAID # (0) Arch Linux title Arch Linux Stock Kernel lock root (hd0,0) kernel /vmlinuz-linux root=/dev/mapper/masayana cryptdevice=/dev/sda2:masayana ro nodma vga=791 initrd /initramfs-linux.img boot # /etc/fstab: static file system information # # devpts /dev/pts devpts defaults 0 0 shm /dev/shm tmpfs nodev,nosuid,noexec 0 0 tmpfs /tmp tmpfs defaults,nodev,nosuid,mode=1777 0 0 /dev/mapper/masayana / ext2 defaults 0 1 UUID=166a497e-6435-4ef4-8198-dc781ce73678 /boot ext2 defaults,noatime 0 1 #/dev/sdb1: UUID="8d71988a-7103-4f6a-a119-145960e2d94e" TYPE="crypto_LUKS" #/dev/sda1: LABEL="boot" UUID="166a497e-6435-4ef4-8198-dc781ce73678" TYPE="ext2" #/dev/sda2: UUID="2ecb1abd-5cfc-4c44-943e-3c78c6faf967" TYPE="crypto_LUKS" #/dev/sdc1: UUID="a47f96ae-db52-48ce-b99d-752daa4a482d" TYPE="crypto_LUKS" #/dev/mapper/masayana: LABEL="ourhouse" UUID="92102d0f-5efb-49a7-8d83-2b1daf1605e6" TYPE="ext2" Hope this helps. -- -- gk http://gm5729.blogspot.com Please conserve natural resources and print out this email if absolutely necessary. If you need a copy save as a PDF/DJVU format on your computer. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 490 bytes Desc: This is a digitally signed message part URL: From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 12:59:45 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 12:59:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux to Windows file server migration - ouch! In-Reply-To: References: <1334899845-1317159401-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-227491913-@b4.c4.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: Mike Miller cried from the depths of the abyss... > Now with Windows, nothing works. In fact, despite fairly > considerable effort, we are not yet able to mount any CIFS directory share. > I had similar problems when our first 2008 R2 boxes arrived on the scene. This worked for me: mkcifsmnt -f /$localpath -d /$sharepath -h $serverhost -c $user -p $passwort -m CIFS -a -t -rw -u $UID -g $GID -w $DOMAIN this creates an entry to /etc/filesystems too, and user credentials will be stored in /etc/cifs_fs/cifscred What version of Samba are you running? > Apparently, as I said, the problem was not that Linux was lacking features > but that it was slow. That was all. I really just want to find a way to > make it faster and not learn how to accept life with Windows. > I have been experiencing the same issues with speed over here, and to be honest it at times is quite maddening! I am curious if you have made any forward progress on this front? > I was hoping *not* to hear a series of comments essentially saying, "I, > for one, accept our Microsoft overlords." If you say this with your fingers crossed it doesn't count. Mr. B-o-B From cncole at earthlink.net Mon Oct 3 13:40:28 2011 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 13:40:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID wit GRUB2 In-Reply-To: <1317643583.28012.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: Are "normal" replies possible from the digest? Seems better to disable digest than get these messes. > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of gk > Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 7:06 AM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: [tclug-list] RAID wit GRUB2 > > > On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 23:13 -0500, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > wrote: > > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 (gk) > > 2. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > Alternate install (Mike Miller) > > 3. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > Alternate install (Mike Miller) > > 4. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > Alternate install (kelly) > > 5. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > Alternate install [SOLVED] (Mike Miller) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:01:50 -0500 > > From: gk > > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 > > Message-ID: <1317574910.13897.4.camel at localhost> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > On Sun, 2011-10-02 at 12:00 -0500, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > wrote: > > > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > > > 1. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > > Alternate install (Mike Miller) > > > 2. Re: can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 > > > Alternate install (Thomas Lunde) > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > Message: 1 > > > Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:40:46 -0500 (CDT) > > > From: Mike Miller > > > To: TCLUG Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu > > > 10.10 Alternate install > > > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > > > > > I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely > > > disheartening that every set of instructions I find anywhere fails. They > > > all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu > > > 10.10 with RAID 1 on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it > > > maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. > > > > > > I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > > > > > > > Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. > > > > > > > > This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time > > > > for me. I have to be honest I haven't done this on Ubuntu, but I did > > > > just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist > > > > so this should work fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and > > > > a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware > > > > install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not > > > > necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. > > > > > > > > I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or > > > > anything else Ubuntu might have that you like). One disk 1 (lets call > > > > it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). > > > > Change the types on both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type > > > > "FD". > > > > > > I couldn't get through even that part. > > > > > > The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I > > > should use GNU parted. In gparted I can delete partitions but not so much > > > that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to > > > know what I am supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an > > > msdos partition? How is this done? > > > > > > Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am > > > dying to try them) because I couldn't get past this initial step. > > > > > > Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. > > > With at least one of them I get all the way through, it seems like it has > > > worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I > > > look for ways to fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete > > > everything and start over. > > > > > > After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do > > > it for me. Can any of you do this? How much do you want? > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > Message: 2 > > > Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 07:19:16 -0500 > > > From: Thomas Lunde > > > To: TCLUG Mailing List > > > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu > > > 10.10 Alternate install > > > Message-ID: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62 at gmail.com> > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > > > Mike - > > > > > > If you don't care about the current contents of either disk, here is one way to get rid of the error message about > GUID partitions being present. > > > > > > Boot from a live CD with just these two hard drives attached to the system. Once booted, open up a terminal window. > Use the df command to see if anything on either drive has been mounted. If so, they will appear as /dev/sda1 (or > similar). No partitions may have been mounted, if there is just junk on the drives. If a partition has been mounted, use > the command sudo umount /dev/sda1 (or whatever sd partitions you saw from the df command) to remove them from the df output. > > > > > > Use the command ls /dev/sd* to verify that the system "sees" the two drives and that they are listed as sda and sdb. > (You'll want to adjust the letters below if they come up as something else.) > > > > > > Then, issue this command: > > > sudo dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda bs=1024 count=1024 > > > and do it again for sdb and any partition tables on the drives will be gone. > > > > > > Now, you should be able to follow the installation instructions you've had. > > > > > > Thomas > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > > > > > > > I put this off for awhile and now I'm back at it. I find it extremely disheartening that every set of instructions > I find anywhere fails. They all fail and this is such a simple problem. I just want to install Ubuntu 10.10 with RAID 1 > on a pair of identical 2.0 TB disks. I have done it maybe 20 times and it has never once been able to boot. > > > > > > > > I was hoping to be able to use these instructions from B-o-B... > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 12 Jul 2011, Mr. B-o-B wrote: > > > > > > > >> Try to do the raid prep/setup outside of the Ubuntu installer first. > > > >> > > > >> This is how I setup software RAID 1's, and this has worked every time for me. I have to be honest I haven't done > this on Ubuntu, but I did just load the latest Ubuntu live cd to check, and all the commands exist so this should work > fine. I have done this >30 times on Slackware, and a handful of times on Centos & Fedora. I actually used a Slackware > install disk to setup the raid's on Fedora & Centos, but this is not necessary. The Ubuntu disk will work just fine. > > > >> > > > >> I personally like fdisk to create my partitions, but can use cfdisk (or anything else Ubuntu might have that you > like). One disk 1 (lets call it /dev/sda) Create at least two partitions (one for swap & one for /). Change the types on > both partitions to "Linux RAID autodetect" type "FD". > > > > > > > > I couldn't get through even that part. > > > > > > > > The first problem is that fdisk says that I have a GUID partition and I should use GNU parted. In gparted I can > delete partitions but not so much that fdisk doesn't complain about the GUID partitioning. So I need to know what I am > supposed to be doing with fdisk here. Do I really want an msdos partition? How is this done? > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, the detailed B-o-B instructions didn't help me (though I am dying to try them) because I couldn't > get past this initial step. > > > > > > > > Every other set of instructions I've found on the web fails at some point. With at least one of them I get all the > way through, it seems like it has worked, but then I try to start the machine and it won't boot. Next I look for ways to > fix that and I haven't been able to fix it. So I delete everything and start over. > > > > > > > > After working on this for dozens of hours I am ready to pay someone to do it for me. Can any of you do this? How > much do you want? > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > > End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 2 > > > ***************************************** > > > > Your limitation may be the Bios with how many drives it can see. ie 2tb > > limit vs 4tb. > GRUB 2 should always be used with the GRUB2 Utility disk available. > GRUB2 has to have a special 7E partition BEFORE the /boot partition > which also needs to be separate. Then you can for the sake of argument > have just a / partition. The numbering scheme is different for GRUB2 > than GRUB1 and I have foundit best to use something like > this.... /(hd0,1)/vmlinuz...... the same holds true with the kernel > line. A set command will tell where the /root is located for example > (hd0,2). That is why the Utility disk recommendation because sometimes > the installer won't find the proper partition. The phrase "boot" always > ends the section. > > I know this is not GRUB2 here but the mapping is a declaration that is > made not only in fstab, but it MUST be declared in your modules that > load at boot time. In my case loop/luks and fuse are declared and > generated by mkinitcpio each time in specific order so the proper module > will be available when needed. In this example it was easier to use > labels vs. UUIDS which I prefer but UUIDS are used in in fstab. > > GRUB1 example for mapped devices akin to mapped for RAID > # (0) Arch Linux > title Arch Linux Stock Kernel > lock > root (hd0,0) > kernel /vmlinuz-linux root=/dev/mapper/masayana > cryptdevice=/dev/sda2:masayana ro nodma vga=791 > initrd /initramfs-linux.img > boot > > # /etc/fstab: static file system information > # > # > > devpts /dev/pts devpts defaults 0 > 0 > shm /dev/shm tmpfs nodev,nosuid,noexec > 0 0 > tmpfs /tmp tmpfs > defaults,nodev,nosuid,mode=1777 0 0 > /dev/mapper/masayana / ext2 defaults 0 1 > UUID=166a497e-6435-4ef4-8198-dc781ce73678 /boot ext2 defaults,noatime 0 > 1 > > > #/dev/sdb1: UUID="8d71988a-7103-4f6a-a119-145960e2d94e" > TYPE="crypto_LUKS" > #/dev/sda1: LABEL="boot" UUID="166a497e-6435-4ef4-8198-dc781ce73678" > TYPE="ext2" > #/dev/sda2: UUID="2ecb1abd-5cfc-4c44-943e-3c78c6faf967" > TYPE="crypto_LUKS" > #/dev/sdc1: UUID="a47f96ae-db52-48ce-b99d-752daa4a482d" > TYPE="crypto_LUKS" > #/dev/mapper/masayana: LABEL="ourhouse" > UUID="92102d0f-5efb-49a7-8d83-2b1daf1605e6" TYPE="ext2" > > Hope this helps. > > > -- > -- > gk > http://gm5729.blogspot.com > > Please conserve natural resources and print out this email if absolutely > necessary. If you need a copy save as a PDF/DJVU format on your > computer. > From erikerik at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 14:19:24 2011 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 14:19:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID wit GRUB2 In-Reply-To: References: <1317643583.28012.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: > Are "normal" replies possible from the digest? ? Seems better to disable digest than get these messes. +1 Or at least trim the quoted text to only include the relevant information. From ryanjcole at me.com Mon Oct 3 14:20:52 2011 From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 14:20:52 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID wit GRUB2 In-Reply-To: References: <1317643583.28012.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <2BE2BE17-8A40-4335-877E-673C6DFE72CA@me.com> On Oct 3, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Erik Anderson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: >> Are "normal" replies possible from the digest? Seems better to disable digest than get these messes. > > +1 > > Or at least trim the quoted text to only include the relevant information. +1 And changing the subject line as was done this time. From florin at iucha.net Mon Oct 3 14:24:49 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 14:24:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Mail Indigestion Was: RAID wit GRUB2 In-Reply-To: References: <1317643583.28012.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: <20111003192448.GT16653@styx.iucha.org> On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 01:40:28PM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote: > Are "normal" replies possible from the digest? Seems better to > disable digest than get these messes. +1 Or at least, if you are going to quote the entire digest, at least top-post 8^) Cheers, florin -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From david.johnson at usfamily.net Mon Oct 3 15:36:17 2011 From: david.johnson at usfamily.net (David Johnson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 15:36:17 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu Message-ID: <4E8A1CBF.4060801@usfamily.net> When setting up a software raid array in Linux, be sure to setup grub on both hard drives. That way when the hard drive fails that you set up grub on, you can still boot with the remaining drive. David Johnson From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 16:34:04 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 16:34:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] RAID wit GRUB2 In-Reply-To: References: <1317643583.28012.11.camel@localhost> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Erik Anderson wrote: > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: > >> Are "normal" replies possible from the digest? ? Seems better to >> disable digest than get these messes. > > +1 > > Or at least trim the quoted text to only include the relevant > information. I agree that it is very annoying. We are lucky that he didn't do it on a day when there were 50 messages. I'm definitely and advocate for trimming, too. If you always quote whole messages, things grow unnecessarily large as a thread progresses. We stored threaded archives, right? If so, we can use search results to look back/forward at all messages in the thread, so no need to quote the whole thing. Repeating excessively means too many messages will match a search. Regarding digests -- I recommend not using digests but using Gmail for list traffic. But if you want digests, have you tried the mime option? At least with Alpine (I use Alpine with Gmail via fetchmail/procmail), the mime message digest is great because when you open an individual message, you can reply to it and doesn't try to include every message in the digest, just the one you are replying to. You can also save individual messages out of the digest. Try it sometime (if it MIME digests are an option for TCLUG). Mike From cncole at earthlink.net Mon Oct 3 18:06:28 2011 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 18:06:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] RAID wit GRUB2 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Mike Miller > > On Mon, 3 Oct 2011, Erik Anderson wrote: > > > On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Chuck Cole wrote: > > > >> Are "normal" replies possible from the digest? ? Seems better to > >> disable digest than get these messes. > > > > +1 > > > > Or at least trim the quoted text to only include the relevant > > information. > > I agree that it is very annoying. We are lucky that he didn't do it on a > day when there were 50 messages. I'm definitely and advocate for > trimming, too. ... > > Regarding digests -- I recommend not using digests ... Let's get digests turned off, since those replies are annoying to most, and there are several other options for a user. Chuck From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Mon Oct 3 19:40:59 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:40:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive Message-ID: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> I bought an adapter for connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive. Unfortunately, something isn't working, as not even the BIOS of the computer can recognize the CD drive. If I have to return this adapter because I can't get it to work, what do I need to do instead? Is there any chance that this adapter can only work with hard drives and not CD drives? If I need to purchase another adapter, how am I supposed to know if it works with CD drives? -- Jason Hsu Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org From jus at krytosvirus.com Mon Oct 3 20:03:33 2011 From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 01:03:33 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive In-Reply-To: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <2125216479-1317690215-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-917647196-@b4.c4.bise6.blackberry> I've used IDE/SATA to USB adapters with success even with cd drives. Never an IDE to SATA. I'd suggest just getting a SATA cd drive instead of an adapter for your obviously old* cd drive. *I have not really shopped around for cd drives or complete systems lately but I figure SATA would be fairly ubiquitous by now given the age and maturity of SATA, especially in internet time (maybe 4x that of dog years?) Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile -----Original Message----- From: Jason Hsu Sender: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 19:40:59 To: Reply-To: TCLUG Mailing List Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive I bought an adapter for connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive. Unfortunately, something isn't working, as not even the BIOS of the computer can recognize the CD drive. If I have to return this adapter because I can't get it to work, what do I need to do instead? Is there any chance that this adapter can only work with hard drives and not CD drives? If I need to purchase another adapter, how am I supposed to know if it works with CD drives? -- Jason Hsu Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 20:44:03 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:44:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive In-Reply-To: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4E8A64E3.2050105@gmail.com> On 10/3/2011 7:40 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss: > Unfortunately, something isn't working, Perhaps that antique ide cd-rom drive is the problem, and not the adapter. Contact me off-list & I will give you a pile of ide cd/dvd-roms & or burners. I also can throw in a handful dvd-rom/dvd-bruners as well. From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Mon Oct 3 21:00:03 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 21:00:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive In-Reply-To: <4E8A64E3.2050105@gmail.com> References: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> <4E8A64E3.2050105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111003210003.882656cb.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> The IDE CD drive worked OK in another computer. On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:44:03 -0500 "Mr. B-o-B" wrote: > On 10/3/2011 7:40 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss: > > Unfortunately, something isn't working, > > Perhaps that antique ide cd-rom drive is the problem, and not the > adapter. Contact me off-list & I will give you a pile of ide > cd/dvd-roms & or burners. I also can throw in a handful > dvd-rom/dvd-bruners as well. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- Jason Hsu Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 21:05:41 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:05:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive In-Reply-To: <20111003210003.882656cb.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> <4E8A64E3.2050105@gmail.com> <20111003210003.882656cb.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4E8A69F5.4000503@gmail.com> On 10/3/2011 9:00 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss: > The IDE CD drive worked OK in another computer. I'm sure it did. If you want a sata drive let me know. From geebub at earthlink.net Mon Oct 3 21:10:12 2011 From: geebub at earthlink.net (G. Nelson) Date: Mon, 03 Oct 2011 21:10:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive In-Reply-To: <20111003210003.882656cb.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> <4E8A64E3.2050105@gmail.com> <20111003210003.882656cb.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <1317694212.2451.17.camel@gee.home> Some PATA/SATA converters are bi-directional, while others are uni-directional. If yours is uni-directional, you need to ensure it is for a PATA device on a SATA channel. I believe it has to support ATAPI in order to work with a CD/DVD. Gary Nelson On Mon, 2011-10-03 at 21:00 -0500, Jason Hsu wrote: > The IDE CD drive worked OK in another computer. > > On Mon, 03 Oct 2011 20:44:03 -0500 > "Mr. B-o-B" wrote: > > > On 10/3/2011 7:40 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss: > > > Unfortunately, something isn't working, > > > > Perhaps that antique ide cd-rom drive is the problem, and not the > > adapter. Contact me off-list & I will give you a pile of ide > > cd/dvd-roms & or burners. I also can throw in a handful > > dvd-rom/dvd-bruners as well. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmk at kaufman.eden-prairie.mn.us Tue Oct 4 06:32:41 2011 From: jmk at kaufman.eden-prairie.mn.us (James Kaufman) Date: Tue, 04 Oct 2011 06:32:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Small Business Contract Message-ID: <4E8AEED9.7040906@kaufman.eden-prairie.mn.us> I received quite a few responses to my posting yesterday for someone to take on contract work for a small business. I am very pleased to know there is so much talent interested in extra work. I have responded to most of you already. I will get back to everyone else as soon as I can. From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Tue Oct 4 14:06:05 2011 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:06:05 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux to Windows file server migration - ouch! In-Reply-To: <4E8A0C64.4020204@ubiqx.mn.org> References: <1334899845-1317159401-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-227491913-@b4.c4.bise6.blackberry> <4E8A0C64.4020204@ubiqx.mn.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 14:26, Christopher R. Hertel wrote: > Greg, > > Please do forward this to the TCLUG list. > > Regarding the SMB/CIFS specifications: > > * Microsoft has released full specifications for SMB/CIFS and for > the newer SMB2 protocol as well. They started releasing these > specifications a few years ago, after they lost the anti-trust > case in the EU. There are even preview specifications for the > updated SMB2.2 dialect available, even though SMB2.2 won't be > released until Windows 8 ships. > > * The SMB and CIFS documentation was written under contract by a > local Twin Cities company. Yes, really. Read more here: > > http://www.zdnet.com/blog/open-source/samba-microsoft-cooperate-on-new-set-of-smbcifs-docs/4681 > > > * The specifications go in-depth. They are difficult to read if you > are not already a CIFS geek. Search for [MS-CIFS], [MS-SMB], and > [MS-SMB2] if you are curious. > > Regarding Linux and/or Samba being slow: > > * There are a LOT of potential reasons for slowdowns. I would need > to know more about the setup and the data transfer method. > > * The original SMB protocol is an antique. It still has DOS and > OS/2 system calls in it. Yes, really. That's why Microsoft came > out with SMB2 in Vista. > > Samba has added initial support for SMB2 in Samba 3.6.0, but it > has to be enabled in the smb.conf file. > > Regarding SMB2.2: > > * http://www.hertel.org.uk/blog/?p=253&author=1 > > > > Chris -)----- > Your friendly neighborhood StPaul-based Samba Team Member. > > gregrwm wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 18:15, Mike Miller wrote: > > Apparently, as I said, the problem was not that Linux was lacking > > features but that it was slow. That was all. I really just want > > to find a way to make it faster and not learn how to accept life > > with Windows. > > > > On Tue, 27 Sep 2011, Justin Krejci wrote: > > That being said I wish the functionality/spec was opened up by > > MS but that is not their way of course. > > > > That is one of the reasons I don't want to use MS software. Did > > you read the link about Samba 4? That made it sound like they are > > trying to share more details of their specs. > > > > c- > > do you have any insight to offer to this (TCLUG) thread? > > -g > > -- > "Implementing CIFS - the Common Internet FileSystem" ISBN: 013047116X > Samba Team -- http://www.samba.org/ -)----- Christopher R. Hertel > jCIFS Team -- http://jcifs.samba.org/ -)----- ubiqx development, > uninq. > ubiqx Team -- http://www.ubiqx.org/ -)----- crh at ubiqx.mn.org > OnLineBook -- http://ubiqx.org/cifs/ -)----- crh at ubiqx.or -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcbnac at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 14:32:53 2011 From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 14:32:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Connecting a SATA motherboard to an IDE CD drive In-Reply-To: <1317694212.2451.17.camel@gee.home> References: <20111003194059.05ff6f19.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> <4E8A64E3.2050105@gmail.com> <20111003210003.882656cb.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> <1317694212.2451.17.camel@gee.home> Message-ID: Depending on your purpose for the adapter, it may never work. Many newer boards have their own IDE channel hanging off a certain way that it won't boot. SATA native DVD-burners are $20-$30 at MicroCenter, might it just be easier to pick up a new one? (For the better part of a decade I've just bought whatever Samsung drive was available; haven't had trouble yet) Many lower-end boards forgo IDE channels altogether; but at the $90-$150 mark, include one that they've added via some third party's controller chip. From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 16:04:01 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:04:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] can't make partition bootable with in Ubuntu 10.10 Alternate install [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: References: <263B410A-21E3-4D43-8EC0-490DB6510A62@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 2 Oct 2011, Mike Miller wrote: > Next I ran these two commands (one line each) to create the raid: > > sudo mdadm --create /dev/md0 --level 1 --raid-devices 2 /dev/sda1 /dev/sdb1 --metadata=0.90 > sudo mdadm --create /dev/md1 --level 1 --raid-devices 2 /dev/sda2 /dev/sdb2 --metadata=0.90 I forgot to mention that mdadm is not available on the Ubuntu 10.10 x64 Desktop Live CD. To get mdadm I had to run this from the terminal window: sudo apt-get install mdadm That also installs postfix (a surprise to me) and while installing postfix it fills the screen in blue and asks two questions. For the first one I chose "local" and for the second I took the default name which was "ubuntu". Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 17:48:35 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 17:48:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] installing same old packages in Ubuntu Message-ID: I was running Ubuntu 10.10, but then I replaced a bunch of hardware, including upgrading a single hard drive to a RAID1 array of two drives, so I needed to install Ubuntu on the new system, but I wanted it to be like the old system. First I tried copying the old files onto the new ones using rsync, but that failed badly. I think the first obvious problem was that the new /boot and grub were not compatible with the kernel from the old setup. Well, no matter what it was, that went so badly that I repeated the install from scratch (very easy after having done it successfully the night before after about 20 failures). Next I tried something that worked a lot better. I mounted my old HDD as /c like so: sudo mkdir /c sudo mount -t ext3 /dev/sdc1 /c It was an ext3 partition. Other people trying to do this would have to look for their old drive partition to make sure they have the right one. Then I went to my old home directory and moved all the "hidden" files and directories (filenames beginning with ".") to their own directory (pretend my username was "user"): cd /c/home/user sudo mkdir dotfiles sudo mv .[A-Za-z]* dotfiles That worked for me. You might not need sudo -- it depends on permissions. You have to watch for changes in UID/GID between installations and fix them appropriately (e.g., compare /etc/passwd with /c/etc/passwd). Then I used rsync to copy my old home directory to my new one: sudo rsync -a /c/home/user /home I have the same username on both systems, but if they had been different, I would have done this: sudo rsync -a /c/home/user_old/ /home/user_new Note the slash after "user_old" -- it is necessary. The rsync copy skipped ~/.gvfs because of permissions, but that wasn't a problem. It worked well. Next I could move certain files from "dotfiles" to ~ and try to recover old settings appropriately (e.g., for browsers). Before I did much playing with config files in $HOME, I installed a bunch of the old programs I was missing. To figure out which ones I had installed before but did not have in the new system, I did this (one liner): grep -h ^Package: /c/var/lib/dpkg/status /var/lib/dpkg/status /var/lib/dpkg/status | cut -c10- | sort | uniq -c | awk '$1==1 {print $2}' | less I think that's a pretty cool way to go. I first opened synaptic... sudo synaptic ...and while skimming the output the long command in "less", I would see what I was missing and I would go to synaptic and find it. It worked out quite well and it only took me a few minutes to find everything I wanted. One could do the same kind of thing using the dpkg status file from another computer. On that other computer (let's call it compA), just do this: grep -h ^Package: /var/lib/dpkg/status > compA_status_list.txt Copy that output file (compA_status_list.txt) to another machine and do this: grep -h ^Package: /var/lib/dpkg/status /var/lib/dpkg/status compA_status_list.txt | cut -c10- | sort | uniq -c | awk '$1==1 {print $2}' | less To get a list of packages installed on the local machine but not on compA, you would use $1==2 instead of $1==1 in the awk command. To see a list of packages installed on both machines, you would use $1==3 instead of $1==1 in the awk command. Mike From dean at ripperd.com Wed Oct 5 20:12:23 2011 From: dean at ripperd.com (Dean E) Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2011 20:12:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] installing same old packages in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8D0077.8000801@ripperd.com> Its not Windows, no need to treat it like it. Really all you needed to do to switch disks was to: 1. boot any linux distro's livecd with all 3 disks installed. (must be an x64 cd if your previous install was x64 though) 2. create your raid set (MD? or dm? whatever) 3. make a matching filesystem on your raid set for each filesystem on your old disk (sizes do not have to match). 4. mount each partition, and cp -a /mnt/oldpartition/* /mnt/newpartition 5. mount /proc and /dev to their relative new location in the new root 6. chroot into your new root partition. 7. edit fstab and grub lines to reflect new partition names or GUIDs. don't forget swap also 8. reinstall grub/lilo to new raid disks via grub install, dpkg reconfigure grub, whatever you want. 9. exit chroot, Shutdown, remove old disk, and fire it up. Machine should be the same exact machine, just on different HDDs. I'm sure I'm missing a step or two but that's the gist of it. Based on your post you seem to have the technical skill for it, just not the knowledge of the boot/grub/kernel/filesystem to think of how to make it work. Although IMHO the better way to upgrade is to do basically what you did. Get a list of what programs you want to reinstall, and then "cp -a" your user home dir from the old setup to the new setup. Then just "chown youruser: HOMEDIRNAME -R" to get the UID/GID correct. On 10/5/2011 5:48 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > I was running Ubuntu 10.10, but then I replaced a bunch of hardware, > including upgrading a single hard drive to a RAID1 array of two > drives, so I needed to install Ubuntu on the new system, but I wanted > it to be like the old system. > > First I tried copying the old files onto the new ones using rsync, but > that failed badly. I think the first obvious problem was that the new > /boot and grub were not compatible with the kernel from the old setup. > Well, no matter what it was, that went so badly that I repeated the > install from scratch (very easy after having done it successfully the > night before after about 20 failures). > > Next I tried something that worked a lot better. I mounted my old HDD > as /c like so: > > sudo mkdir /c > sudo mount -t ext3 /dev/sdc1 /c > > It was an ext3 partition. Other people trying to do this would have > to look for their old drive partition to make sure they have the right > one. > > Then I went to my old home directory and moved all the "hidden" files > and directories (filenames beginning with ".") to their own directory > (pretend my username was "user"): > > cd /c/home/user > sudo mkdir dotfiles > sudo mv .[A-Za-z]* dotfiles > > That worked for me. You might not need sudo -- it depends on > permissions. You have to watch for changes in UID/GID between > installations and fix them appropriately (e.g., compare /etc/passwd > with /c/etc/passwd). > > Then I used rsync to copy my old home directory to my new one: > > sudo rsync -a /c/home/user /home > > I have the same username on both systems, but if they had been > different, I would have done this: > > sudo rsync -a /c/home/user_old/ /home/user_new > > Note the slash after "user_old" -- it is necessary. The rsync copy > skipped ~/.gvfs because of permissions, but that wasn't a problem. It > worked well. Next I could move certain files from "dotfiles" to ~ and > try to recover old settings appropriately (e.g., for browsers). > > Before I did much playing with config files in $HOME, I installed a > bunch of the old programs I was missing. To figure out which ones I > had installed before but did not have in the new system, I did this > (one liner): > > grep -h ^Package: /c/var/lib/dpkg/status /var/lib/dpkg/status > /var/lib/dpkg/status | cut -c10- | sort | uniq -c | awk '$1==1 {print > $2}' | less > > I think that's a pretty cool way to go. I first opened synaptic... > > sudo synaptic > > ...and while skimming the output the long command in "less", I would > see what I was missing and I would go to synaptic and find it. It > worked out quite well and it only took me a few minutes to find > everything I wanted. One could do the same kind of thing using the > dpkg status file from another computer. On that other computer (let's > call it compA), just do this: > > grep -h ^Package: /var/lib/dpkg/status > compA_status_list.txt > > Copy that output file (compA_status_list.txt) to another machine and > do this: > > grep -h ^Package: /var/lib/dpkg/status /var/lib/dpkg/status > compA_status_list.txt | cut -c10- | sort | uniq -c | awk '$1==1 {print > $2}' | less > > To get a list of packages installed on the local machine but not on > compA, you would use $1==2 instead of $1==1 in the awk command. To > see a list of packages installed on both machines, you would use $1==3 > instead of $1==1 in the awk command. > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From tonyyarusso at gmail.com Wed Oct 5 23:26:48 2011 From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 23:26:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] installing same old packages in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <4E8D0077.8000801@ripperd.com> References: <4E8D0077.8000801@ripperd.com> Message-ID: Quoth the infobot: To replicate your packages selection on another machine (or restore it if re-installing), you can type ? aptitude --display-format '%p' search '?installed!?automatic' > ~/my-packages ?, move the file "my-packages" to the other machine, and there type ? sudo xargs aptitude --schedule-only install < my-packages ; sudo aptitude install ? - See also !automate If you don't have aptitude installed, there's a slightly less "intelligent" method using dpkg --get-selections and dpkg --set-selections that will do the trick. - Tony From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Wed Oct 5 23:59:59 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Wed, 5 Oct 2011 23:59:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc Message-ID: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> It seemed like just yesterday that Windows 95 could be installed from 3.5" floppy disks. (Of course, there were still many computers out there without a CD-ROM.) Windows XP was the last Windows OS that could be installed from CD. Vista and 7 can only be installed from a DVD. Since I've only been using Linux since early 2007, I have no memory of a time when Linux could be installed from floppy disks. But I remember that back in 2007-2008, all distros could be installed from a CD. In the last few years, more and more distros have been requiring a DVD. For example, the latest version of MEPIS Linux requires a DVD, while all previous versions fit onto a CD. I expect that within a few years, only lightweight distros will fit onto a CD. This has me wondering how soon it will be before operating systems require a Blu-Ray disc simply because the 4.7 GB of a DVD is too small. I think there is a slight chance that Windows 8 will require a Blu Ray. If it doesn't, I think Windows 9 will. And I think that the biggest BSD distros (like PC-BSD) and Linux distros (like Pinguy) will require Blu Ray in a few years. I intend to keep the Swift Linux ISO small enough to fit onto a CD for the next several years. I know I'll have to cave eventually, but I need to make sure that when I do, the last holdouts will be limited to the likes of Puppy Linux, SliTaz, TinyCore, and other distros famous for tiny ISO files. -- Jason Hsu Founder and lead developer of Swift Linux http://www.swiftlinux.org From tclug at freakzilla.com Thu Oct 6 00:10:50 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:10:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Jason Hsu wrote: > This has me wondering how soon it will be before operating systems > require a Blu-Ray disc simply because the 4.7 GB of a DVD is too small. > I think there is a slight chance that Windows 8 will require a Blu Ray. > If it doesn't, I think Windows 9 will. I think it's more likely they'll require a live internet connection, like the latest Mac OS X did. If they insist on physical media I think they can go to multiple DVDs or heck, thumbdrives. -Yaron -- From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 00:38:33 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:38:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] installing same old packages in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: <4E8D0077.8000801@ripperd.com> References: <4E8D0077.8000801@ripperd.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Dean E wrote: > Really all you needed to do to switch disks was to: > > 1. boot any linux distro's livecd with all 3 disks installed. (must be an x64 > cd if your previous install was x64 though) > 2. create your raid set (MD? or dm? whatever) > 3. make a matching filesystem on your raid set for each filesystem on your > old disk (sizes do not have to match). > 4. mount each partition, and cp -a /mnt/oldpartition/* /mnt/newpartition > 5. mount /proc and /dev to their relative new location in the new root > 6. chroot into your new root partition. > 7. edit fstab and grub lines to reflect new partition names or GUIDs. don't > forget swap also > 8. reinstall grub/lilo to new raid disks via grub install, dpkg reconfigure > grub, whatever you want. > 9. exit chroot, Shutdown, remove old disk, and fire it up. Machine should be > the same exact machine, just on different HDDs. > > I'm sure I'm missing a step or two but that's the gist of it. > > Based on your post you seem to have the technical skill for it, just not the > knowledge of the boot/grub/kernel/filesystem to think of how to make it work. Thanks. I hope that will work for someone. I can tell that I would have gotten stuck on the fstab and grub editing and grub reinstallation. The other weird thing was that after I got a new motherboard, my old hard drive wouldn't boot anymore. I think I got it to boot after changing some BIOS settings, but then it would not load gnome and I was stuck with the console. I can't say why it didn't work. If I had simply copied it over, it seems likely that it would have continued to fail and I would have had to figure out what was wrong. > Although IMHO the better way to upgrade is to do basically what you did. That makes me feel a little better. I didn't mention it earlier but I have another machine on which I need to upgrade the OS from defunct Ubuntu 9.10 (they don't even support them for two years, except for the LTS releases). I don't want it to be down long because I use it for work. It has a RAID1 in it, but the HDDs are 250GB and I should upgrade to 2TB and increase the RAM. To me it seems like it would be wise to do what I know -- what I just did on my home machine and install Ubuntu 10.10 from scratch. I can do a normal upgrade later to 11.10, if it is any good, but so far I haven't liked what I've seen from 11.04. Or maybe I should try to stick with 10.04 because it is LTS. > Get a list of what programs you want to reinstall, and then "cp -a" your > user home dir from the old setup to the new setup. Then just "chown > youruser: HOMEDIRNAME -R" to get the UID/GID correct. Thanks. I guess I've been using "cp" for more than 20 years but I still didn't know about the -a option. I thought to use rsync because I believed it would do an md5 check on the file transfer. I don't know if cp does anything like that, but maybe it does. Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 00:55:16 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:55:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Yaron wrote: > On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Jason Hsu wrote: > >> This has me wondering how soon it will be before operating systems >> require a Blu-Ray disc simply because the 4.7 GB of a DVD is too small. >> I think there is a slight chance that Windows 8 will require a Blu Ray. >> If it doesn't, I think Windows 9 will. > > I think it's more likely they'll require a live internet connection, > like the latest Mac OS X did. If they insist on physical media I think > they can go to multiple DVDs or heck, thumbdrives. Right -- multiple DVDs, just like we used to install software using multiple floppies. That was very common. We also used to do backups onto 50 floppies, and other crazy, painful things. Ubuntu still installs from a CD, but that doesn't really tell you how big it is because as soon as it finds the network it starts downloading stuff, or at least I thought it was doing that. Then I complete the installation by updating, which downloads many MBs of data, and finally running synaptic to install loads more. If an OS installs from DVD instead of from CD, that probably just means that it was too big for CD, but it could also mean that DVDs are now cheaper than CDs in bulk (are they? I don't know.) If it's a size problem, then the disk has to be more than about 800 MB, but a DVD is about six times that size. So moving from CD to DVD doesn't mean that the DVD will soon be too small. An IT friend of mine told me that he read that Microsoft makes a lot of money from all the ads they put on their install disks -- all the extra crap it spews onto the desktop and the links it builds into IE. He said they get so much from that junk that they can afford to pay Dell to install their OS on Dell machines instead of having Dell pay them. I haven't looked it up, but it sounded credible. They also make money later by selling upgrades to Windows addicts^H^H^H^H^H^H^Husers. (The young people might not get the ancient "^H" joke.) Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 01:09:30 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 01:09:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] remembering dependency hell Message-ID: Earlier tonight I requested a bunch of packages via Synaptic in Ubuntu. It automagically figured out some others I would need and I ended up installing 296 packages -- 1.3 GB download. My Qwest dsl is pretty fast because the download took less than 5 minutes. A few minutes later it was done. Contrast this experience with what I used to go through 10-20 years ago. Computers were much slower. I would download source code by ftp and compile it. A package like Octave could take a very long time to compile and install. You'd run configure and make, but you'd get errors. It would stop and tell you that you were missing something. Then you would have to figure out how to get that thing -- maybe flex or bison or some newer version of gcc -- but after you found that thing, you would have to download it and compile it. It might require software that you didn't have, so you would look for that. It could take several days to chase all these things down. In the end, you still might not be able to compile the program. There were never any guarantees. Things usually went better with Solaris because most people seemed to use Solaris, so I also used Solaris. My point is, things are better now. Way, way better. It's really quite amazing how well these things have worked out. Also, now that almost all former UNIX users are running some Linux distro, precompiled binaries of most simple programs (e.g., genetic analysis software) can be made available, and they work. Mike From cschumann at twp-llc.com Thu Oct 6 07:01:19 2011 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 07:01:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8D988F.90106@twp-llc.com> On 10/06/2011 12:55 AM, Yaron wrote: > Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 00:10:50 -0500 (CDT) From: Yaron > To: TCLUG Subject: > Re: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; > charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Jason Hsu wrote: >> > This has me wondering how soon it will be before operating systems >> > require a Blu-Ray disc simply because the 4.7 GB of a DVD is too small. >> > I think there is a slight chance that Windows 8 will require a Blu Ray. >> > If it doesn't, I think Windows 9 will. > I think it's more likely they'll require a live internet connection, like > the latest Mac OS X did. If they insist on physical media I think they can > go to multiple DVDs or heck, thumbdrives. > > > -Yaron +1 Fedora offers a NetInstall download. Under 200MB ISO image that has enough smarts to get the hard disk and network drivers (and maybe some pretty UI), and goes from there. I think this will be more useful, because as it is, right after installing from an all-inclusive DVD, it seems like half the packages have updates anyway. Chris From kris.browne at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 09:09:49 2011 From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:09:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: Physical media for installs is on life support. Lion installing from a download, or from a USB stick the installer made for you, is pretty nice. Kristopher Browne http://www.google.com/profiles/kris.browne On Oct 6, 2011, at 0:55, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Yaron wrote: > >> On Wed, 5 Oct 2011, Jason Hsu wrote: >> >>> This has me wondering how soon it will be before operating systems require a Blu-Ray disc simply because the 4.7 GB of a DVD is too small. I think there is a slight chance that Windows 8 will require a Blu Ray. If it doesn't, I think Windows 9 will. >> >> I think it's more likely they'll require a live internet connection, like the latest Mac OS X did. If they insist on physical media I think they can go to multiple DVDs or heck, thumbdrives. > > Right -- multiple DVDs, just like we used to install software using multiple floppies. That was very common. We also used to do backups onto 50 floppies, and other crazy, painful things. > > Ubuntu still installs from a CD, but that doesn't really tell you how big it is because as soon as it finds the network it starts downloading stuff, or at least I thought it was doing that. Then I complete the installation by updating, which downloads many MBs of data, and finally running synaptic to install loads more. > > If an OS installs from DVD instead of from CD, that probably just means that it was too big for CD, but it could also mean that DVDs are now cheaper than CDs in bulk (are they? I don't know.) If it's a size problem, then the disk has to be more than about 800 MB, but a DVD is about six times that size. So moving from CD to DVD doesn't mean that the DVD will soon be too small. > > An IT friend of mine told me that he read that Microsoft makes a lot of money from all the ads they put on their install disks -- all the extra crap it spews onto the desktop and the links it builds into IE. He said they get so much from that junk that they can afford to pay Dell to install their OS on Dell machines instead of having Dell pay them. I haven't looked it up, but it sounded credible. They also make money later by selling upgrades to Windows addicts^H^H^H^H^H^H^Husers. > > (The young people might not get the ancient "^H" joke.) > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From nesius at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 09:43:24 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:43:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] installing same old packages in Ubuntu In-Reply-To: References: <4E8D0077.8000801@ripperd.com> Message-ID: When I'm moving a directory and I want EVERYTHING (including dot files and files not readable by root) I create a tar file for the directory, move the tarfile, then extract it at the destination. tar picks up every file (including files owned by root with mode 4111), and if you're schlepping the bits over a network the I/O is much more efficient and you can save a lot of time. I don't think I'd waste time with the MD5s in rsync. Moving binaries across from one revision of the Kernel (and libc/libstdc++) to another can be dicey. It will usually work, but it's not guaranteed to. -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From nesius at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 09:48:59 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 09:48:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: <4E8D988F.90106@twp-llc.com> References: <4E8D988F.90106@twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 7:01 AM, Chris Schumann wrote: > On 10/06/2011 12:55 AM, Yaron wrote: > >> think it's more likely they'll require a live internet connection, like >> the latest Mac OS X did. If they insist on physical media I think they can >> go to multiple DVDs or heck, thumbdrives. >> >> >> -Yaron >> > +1 > > Fedora offers a NetInstall download. Under 200MB ISO image that has enough > smarts to get the hard disk and network drivers (and maybe some pretty UI), > and goes from there. I think this will be more useful, because as it is, > right after installing from an all-inclusive DVD, it seems like half the > packages have updates anyway. > > > Let's not forget the difference between "the OS" and "Userland bloatware" either. If I have a Kernel, a shell, GNU Fileutils and GCC, I'm set. -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 10:54:59 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 10:54:59 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: <4E8D988F.90106@twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > If I have a Kernel, a shell, GNU Fileutils and GCC, I'm set. Then you'll write your own networking software? ;-) Mike From nesius at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 11:08:34 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:08:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: <4E8D988F.90106@twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > > If I have a Kernel, a shell, GNU Fileutils and GCC, I'm set. >> > > Then you'll write your own networking software? ;-) Yep. :) and I wouldn't need vi. I'd just need ed, baby. :) -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug at freakzilla.com Thu Oct 6 11:10:47 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:10:47 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: <4E8D988F.90106@twp-llc.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > Yep. :) and I wouldn't need vi.? I'd just need ed, baby. :) ed? Sellout. cat > networkstack.h!!!! -Yaron -- From cschumann at twp-llc.com Thu Oct 6 11:15:47 2011 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 11:15:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E8DD433.70600@twp-llc.com> On 10/06/2011 11:08 AM, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote: > On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Mike Miller wrote: >> > On Thu, 6 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: >> > >> > If I have a Kernel, a shell, GNU Fileutils and GCC, I'm set. >> > Then you'll write your own networking software? ;-) > Yep.:) and I wouldn't need vi. I'd just need ed, baby.:) > > -Rob Back in my day, we'd use cat. :) Chris From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 11:26:24 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 11:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] GoodBye Steve Jobs Message-ID: I have never been a fan of Apple products for my own personal reasons. It started back in 1983 when I saved my paper route money for a month or two to buy a Commodore64 & accessories. Back then the latest greatest Apple was the IIe, and was really inferior to the C64 in many ways. Haters gonna Hate (much like many on this list in regards to M$), so I seem to have stuck with it all these years latter. Even though I have never been a fan of Apple, I still have always given credit where credit is due, and have recommend many time to people to get Apple this or Apple that (even though I wouldn't get one for myself) because I felt it would be a good fit/solution for them. Heck, I think their stuff is neat, but just not for me personally. Perhaps deep down I have always a closet Apple fan as I always enjoyed watching the latest Steve Jobs press conferences. Who knows. I have been sitting here working away, and I can't get over the great feeling of loss and sadness for Steve Jobs passing. This is very sad, and a heavy blow to the Tech World. I know this is off topic for a Linux list, but at the end of the day were are all nerds or geeks (nerds with social skills) on the list. Good Bye Steve. You are going to be missed. Mr. B-o-B From brian at ropers-huilman.net Thu Oct 6 13:53:28 2011 From: brian at ropers-huilman.net (Brian D. Ropers-Huilman) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 13:53:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] GoodBye Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: +1 -- Brian D. Ropers-Huilman 612.234.7778 (m) Sent from my Android mobile device -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From james007wjs at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 16:06:59 2011 From: james007wjs at gmail.com (wes smith) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 16:06:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list GoodBye Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think he died to zune. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From samael.anon at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 21:57:24 2011 From: samael.anon at gmail.com (Samael) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:57:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list GoodBye Steve Jobs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: zune sucks ass On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:06 PM, wes smith wrote: > I think he died to zune. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From canito at dalan.us Thu Oct 6 22:30:34 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Thu, 06 Oct 2011 22:30:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] LVM2 - pvmove command help Message-ID: <20111006223034.hjmtxaa4nu1sksg8@mail.dalan.us> Hello All- I am running a test using lvm2, specifically using the pvmove command. What I've done is added drive sdb1 to my volume group vg_rh6 # vgextend vg_rh6 /dev/sdb1 No physical volume label read from /dev/sdb1 Physical volume "/dev/sdb1" successfully created Volume group "vg_rh6" successfully extended I then created a logical volume lv_datas # lvcreate -L 250m -n lv_datas vg_rh6 Rounding up size to full physical extent 252.00 MiB Logical volume "lv_datas" created I format my logical volume lv_datas # mkfs.ext4 /dev/vg_rh6/lv_datas And finally mount it # mount /dev/vg_rh6/lv_datas /mnt/lvdata/ I copy data over # cp -R /etc/sysconfig/ /mnt/lvdata/ I add a second drive to my volume group # vgextend vg_rh6 /dev/sdc1 No physical volume label read from /dev/sdc1 Physical volume "/dev/sdc1" successfully created Volume group "vg_rh6" successfully extended It shows up fine # pvs PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree /dev/sda2 vg_rh6 lvm2 a- 15.51g 0 /dev/sdb1 vg_rh6 lvm2 a- 5.00g 4.75g /dev/sdc1 vg_rh6 lvm2 a- 4.00g 4.00g I create a new logical volume # lvcreate -L 300m -n lv_bkp vg_rh6 Logical volume "lv_bkp" created And this shows up fine also # lvs LV VG Attr LSize Origin Snap% Move Log Copy% Convert lv_bkp vg_rh6 -wi-a- 300.00m lv_datas vg_rh6 -wi-ao 252.00m lv_root vg_rh6 -wi-ao 11.54g lv_swap vg_rh6 -wi-ao 3.97g I don't know that this is a big deal, but I also format this new logical volume # mkfs.ext4 /dev/vg_rh6/lv_bkp mke2fs 1.41.12 (17-May-2010) Then I finally initiate pvmove # pvmove /dev/sdb1 /dev/sdc1 /dev/sdb1: Moved: 2.2% /dev/sdb1: Moved: 45.7% /dev/sdb1: Moved: 100.0% Once it finishes I check the original physical volume and it says that it is empty. # pvdisplay /dev/sdb1 --- Physical volume --- PV Name /dev/sdb1 VG Name vg_rh6 PV Size 5.00 GiB / not usable 4.00 MiB Allocatable yes PE Size 4.00 MiB Total PE 1279 Free PE 1279 Allocated PE 0 PV UUID KqVMC0-cH8N-P0II-I27C-HFXF-sZIZ-o0LQUl The second physical volume shows to have data. # pvdisplay /dev/sdc1 --- Physical volume --- PV Name /dev/sdc1 VG Name vg_rh6 PV Size 4.00 GiB / not usable 4.00 MiB Allocatable yes PE Size 4.00 MiB Total PE 1023 Free PE 885 Allocated PE 138 PV UUID i11arc-VXrl-e72V-9N9c-H2fw-laTC-HFM0Pw Ok, here is my issue. What step do I take next to access the newly moved data on /dev/sdc1? I've tried mounting the logical volume that I created previously (lv_bkp) to my system and although pvdisplay shows that I got data on /dev/sdc1, I don't know what I need to do to access it? There has to be a missing step or something I'm doing wrong? Help is greatly appreciated. David- ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Fri Oct 7 09:01:45 2011 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 09:01:45 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] what yum does or does not do Message-ID: <20111007140146.02FB92F0482@okra.fo4.net> used to be you had to be careful to only enable dag/epel/atrpms/kde-redhat long enough to get something specific, and have them disabled when doing yum update. i presume this is still important, or at least good practice. once you've installed, for example, nagios, and it pulls in some addidional packages from dag/epel, you of course want to keep everything up to date at all times. i'm guessing it's insufficient to just do yum --enablerepo=dag --enablerepo=epel install nagios nagios-plugins without now also explicitly mentioning those additional packages, in case nagios doesn't have an update but some of the addidional packages do, am i right? please clarify whether your answers are applicable to rhel/centos/SL/dag 6/5/4 yum. pointers to clueful writeups especially welcome. tia, -g From mjb at umn.edu Fri Oct 7 09:18:20 2011 From: mjb at umn.edu (Michael Berkowski) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 09:18:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] what yum does or does not do In-Reply-To: <20111007140146.02FB92F0482@okra.fo4.net> References: <20111007140146.02FB92F0482@okra.fo4.net> Message-ID: <4E8F0A2C.6080608@umn.edu> Using the yum-priorities plugin, you can permanently enable repositories, set at a lower priority. Furthermore, for specific packages you can force the higher priority repositories to exclude them so they are caught by the lower priority auxiliary repos (epel, rpmforge, etc). http://wiki.centos.org/PackageManagement/Yum/Priorities For example, in a CentOS-Base repo I had the following config to get Subversion 1.6 from rpmforge: priority=1 exclude=subversion Then in the rpmforge.repo file priority=3 # for some reason I was blocking nagios from this repo. # Probably unnecessary since it had a lower priority than epel. exclude=nagios* I think for this setup I also had EPEL as priority 2, excluding subversion from there as well. So it works like this: The priority 1 repositories are checked for updates, and anything not explicitly excluded gets updated. Then the other repositories are checked sequentially for updates to the packages excluded from the higher priority repos. +++++++++++++++++ Michael Berkowski Linux Systems Administrator and Programmer Minitex - University of Minnesota PGP Public key: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~berk0081/pgp/pubkey.asc +++++++++++++++++ On 10/7/2011 9:01 AM, gregrwm wrote: > used to be you had to be careful to only enable dag/epel/atrpms/kde-redhat long enough to get something specific, > and have them disabled when doing yum update. i presume this is still important, or at least good practice. > > once you've installed, for example, nagios, and it pulls in some addidional packages from dag/epel, > you of course want to keep everything up to date at all times. i'm guessing it's insufficient to just do > > yum --enablerepo=dag --enablerepo=epel install nagios nagios-plugins > > without now also explicitly mentioning those additional packages, in case nagios doesn't have an update but some of the addidional packages do, am i right? > > please clarify whether your answers are applicable to rhel/centos/SL/dag 6/5/4 yum. > > pointers to clueful writeups especially welcome. > tia, > -g > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 251 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From canito at dalan.us Fri Oct 7 12:01:26 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Fri, 07 Oct 2011 12:01:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] LVM2 - pvmove command help In-Reply-To: <20111006223034.hjmtxaa4nu1sksg8@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111006223034.hjmtxaa4nu1sksg8@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <20111007120126.vxvphfe8a480kock@mail.dalan.us> Quoting David Alanis : > Hello All- > > I am running a test using lvm2, specifically using the pvmove command. > > What I've done is added drive sdb1 to my volume group vg_rh6 > > # vgextend vg_rh6 /dev/sdb1 > No physical volume label read from /dev/sdb1 > Physical volume "/dev/sdb1" successfully created > Volume group "vg_rh6" successfully extended > > I then created a logical volume lv_datas > > # lvcreate -L 250m -n lv_datas vg_rh6 > Rounding up size to full physical extent 252.00 MiB > Logical volume "lv_datas" created > > I format my logical volume lv_datas > > # mkfs.ext4 /dev/vg_rh6/lv_datas > > And finally mount it > > # mount /dev/vg_rh6/lv_datas /mnt/lvdata/ > > I copy data over > > # cp -R /etc/sysconfig/ /mnt/lvdata/ > > I add a second drive to my volume group > > # vgextend vg_rh6 /dev/sdc1 > > No physical volume label read from /dev/sdc1 > Physical volume "/dev/sdc1" successfully created > Volume group "vg_rh6" successfully extended > > It shows up fine > > # pvs > PV VG Fmt Attr PSize PFree > /dev/sda2 vg_rh6 lvm2 a- 15.51g 0 > /dev/sdb1 vg_rh6 lvm2 a- 5.00g 4.75g > /dev/sdc1 vg_rh6 lvm2 a- 4.00g 4.00g > > I create a new logical volume > > # lvcreate -L 300m -n lv_bkp vg_rh6 > Logical volume "lv_bkp" created > > And this shows up fine also > > # lvs > LV VG Attr LSize Origin Snap% Move Log Copy% Convert > lv_bkp vg_rh6 -wi-a- 300.00m > lv_datas vg_rh6 -wi-ao 252.00m > lv_root vg_rh6 -wi-ao 11.54g > lv_swap vg_rh6 -wi-ao 3.97g > > I don't know that this is a big deal, but I also format this new > logical volume > > # mkfs.ext4 /dev/vg_rh6/lv_bkp > mke2fs 1.41.12 (17-May-2010) > > Then I finally initiate pvmove > > # pvmove /dev/sdb1 /dev/sdc1 > /dev/sdb1: Moved: 2.2% > /dev/sdb1: Moved: 45.7% > /dev/sdb1: Moved: 100.0% > > Once it finishes I check the original physical volume and it says that > it is empty. > > # pvdisplay /dev/sdb1 > --- Physical volume --- > PV Name /dev/sdb1 > VG Name vg_rh6 > PV Size 5.00 GiB / not usable 4.00 MiB > Allocatable yes > PE Size 4.00 MiB > Total PE 1279 > Free PE 1279 > Allocated PE 0 > PV UUID KqVMC0-cH8N-P0II-I27C-HFXF-sZIZ-o0LQUl > > The second physical volume shows to have data. > > # pvdisplay /dev/sdc1 > --- Physical volume --- > PV Name /dev/sdc1 > VG Name vg_rh6 > PV Size 4.00 GiB / not usable 4.00 MiB > Allocatable yes > PE Size 4.00 MiB > Total PE 1023 > Free PE 885 > Allocated PE 138 > PV UUID i11arc-VXrl-e72V-9N9c-H2fw-laTC-HFM0Pw > > Ok, here is my issue. What step do I take next to access the newly > moved data on /dev/sdc1? > > I've tried mounting the logical volume that I created previously > (lv_bkp) to my system and although pvdisplay shows that I got data on > /dev/sdc1, I don't know what I need to do to access it? > > There has to be a missing step or something I'm doing wrong? > > Help is greatly appreciated. > > David- > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. Sorry about my previous e-mail. I guess I just had to think about it and understand the concept of LVM and its layers. I was mentality stuck at the fact that when you mount a logical volume in LVM is *not* like mounting an actual disk partition (such as /dev/sdb1). So running pvmove, I expected to see the identical data yet on a separate logical volume. I now understand that I can extend a volume group, move the data over or logical extents using pvmove to the new physical volume or disk, and this will take care of everything for me without having to unmount the logical volume (such as /mnt/data). At this point, I can use vgreduce to remove one of the disks or physical volumes from the volume group. And remove it completely from LVM using pvremove. Ok, I believe its becoming more clear now thanks. David- ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From kc0iog at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 23:00:39 2011 From: kc0iog at gmail.com (Brian Wall) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 23:00:39 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Kristopher Browne wrote: > Physical media for installs is on life support. Lion installing from a download, or from a USB stick the installer made for you, is pretty nice. I agree. Most of my linux installs are net installs now. Charter gives me a 10Mb pipe, why bother burning a disc when it's going to need updates as soon as I install? May as well download everything once and have an up to date system when it's finished. Brian From cncole at earthlink.net Fri Oct 7 18:34:53 2011 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 18:34:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc - Charter pipe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Brian Wall > Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 11:01 PM > > > I agree. Most of my linux installs are net installs now. Charter > gives me a 10Mb pipe, ?? I have Charter's cheapest and get a 15.8 Mb pipe with a DOCSIS 2.0 modem. Was over 12 with DOCSIS 1 Chuck From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Fri Oct 7 18:58:54 2011 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 18:58:54 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] what yum does or does not do In-Reply-To: <4E8F0A2C.6080608@umn.edu> References: <20111007140146.02FB92F0482@okra.fo4.net> <4E8F0A2C.6080608@umn.edu> Message-ID: > Using the yum-priorities plugin, you can permanently enable > repositories, set at a lower priority. might there be a rhel6 package containing yum*-priorities, and where? tia, -g From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Fri Oct 7 22:41:15 2011 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 22:41:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] what yum does or does not do In-Reply-To: References: <20111007140146.02FB92F0482@okra.fo4.net> <4E8F0A2C.6080608@umn.edu> Message-ID: >> Using the yum-priorities plugin, you can permanently enable >> repositories, set at a lower priority. > > might there be a rhel6 package containing yum*-priorities, and where? (found in centos[45]_extras but not 6) From xcorvis at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 07:55:25 2011 From: xcorvis at gmail.com (Adam Nave) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 07:55:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] what yum does or does not do In-Reply-To: References: <20111007140146.02FB92F0482@okra.fo4.net> <4E8F0A2C.6080608@umn.edu> Message-ID: yum-plugin-priorities-1.1.30-6.el6.noarch can be found in the RHEL 6 "optional" channels, which you may have to enable. CentOS 6 should have it in the main yum repository already, but if for some reason it doesn't you can find it by searching http://rpm.pbone.net/ --Adam On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 10:41 PM, gregrwm wrote: > >> Using the yum-priorities plugin, you can permanently enable > >> repositories, set at a lower priority. > > > > might there be a rhel6 package containing yum*-priorities, and where? > > (found in centos[45]_extras but not 6) > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 22:25:52 2011 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 22:25:52 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] $40 Contest Message-ID: Shalom I'm working on something called the C++ Middleware Writer (CMW). The CMW is the back tier of a 3-tier system. The middle and front tiers are open-source and are available here -- http://webEbenezer.n...ntegration.html. There's an archive on that page that you can download. When the software is built, a library and two executables are created. I'm interested in finding bugs in the library or the two executables. The contest is focused on finding run-time problems in either of the two tiers or the library that can be downloaded. I'll want to reproduce the problem here before awarding the prize to someone. The open-source tiers run on both Windows and Linux. I have access to Linux and two versions of Windows 7 here. There's a contest status page here -- http://webEbenezer.net/contest . At this time that page has the following: $40 contest history/status Oct. 9th, 2011 -- 6:00pm -- open ------------------------------------------------------------------- The contest can be in one of three states: open, closed or on hold. I only plan to award one prize at this time so if someone reports on this newsgroup what they believe to be a problem, I'll change the status to on hold until deciding if the reported problem is a bug or not. If the status is on hold, you may not want to report your findings until either a negative decision is made on the pending matter or the contest reopens. Depending on how things go with this, I'll close the contest after the first bug is agreed upon, but may reopen it at a later date. If you need any help building or starting the software, let me know. Thank you for your interest. Brian Wood Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcbnac at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 22:09:19 2011 From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:09:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: USB flash-based drives is where things are headed, I think - for retail purchases, anyway. Not all of us have fast internet connections (My parents are still on a 1.5Mbit/896Kbps DSL line, 26,000 foot loop when 18,000 feet is the limit) - and Microsoft is VERY much aware of this fact. I could picture a 'current installer' on the drive, but it will auto-download the latest if newer is available. (Or giving you the option, based on your connection speed, as the best of both worlds; perhaps then downloading the updates in the background for immediate install upon finishing installation?) Thumb drives, while more expensive than DVDs, are infinitely more reusable, and update-able. Blu-Ray won't take off simply because A) the cost of the drives and B) they're not a common enough drive. The ONLY person I've known who got one did so only because he makes movies - and for High-Def, that is the current standard used for making disc-based video. (He can then cut it down to DVD after-the-fact) I won't be buying a Blu-Ray device - something with a built-in remote-control suicide switch. I've got a 7Mbit pipe - I'm MORE interested in getting a faster upload - 896Kbps is pitiful. I want 5Mbit, or 10Mbit would be AWESOME! From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 02:15:20 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 02:15:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Oct 2011, Keith Bachman wrote: > USB flash-based drives is where things are headed, I think - for retail > purchases, anyway. [snip] > Thumb drives, while more expensive than DVDs, are infinitely more > reusable, and update-able. But the fact that they can be altered makes them undesirable as a means for distributing software -- the producer of the software wants to know what the customer is getting. You'll want to have an unchanged original copy of the software you purchased. Also, I think the cost of flash drives is very significant. To use a few DVDs instead would save a lot of money. Mike From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 11:46:31 2011 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:46:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: Back in the day Debian had a network installer that was two or three floppies. The floppies were enough to boot and get connected to the internet, then the rest of the installer and packages would be downloaded. This was back in 1996-1999 time frame, and I remember doing an install or two over a dial up connection. Talk about being ahead of the times... ;) In the age of broadband this seems like the way to go. The exception being LiveCDs/DVDs that allow you to demo the OS and software without making changes. Downloading the entire install media is only needed if you're doing an offline install or in a time crunch on a slower connection and can't wait for downloads. Nobody needs everything that is on the physical install media, and in most cases you can't install everything on the media due to package conflicts. Network install and only downloading the packages needed seems to be a far superior solution for operating systems and software distributed over the internet to me. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 12:39:18 2011 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 12:39:18 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] $40 contest now $50. Message-ID: The reward for the contest I announced recently is now $50 -- http://webEbenezer.net/contest . I'm selling a 3-piece desk for $55. http://webEbenezer.net/desk1.jpg http://webEbenezer.net/desk2.jpg -- Brian Wood Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kcbnac at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:11:55 2011 From: kcbnac at gmail.com (Keith Bachman) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:11:55 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: True. Write-protected flash drives do exist - I have a 512MB one I use for booting up cleaning tools, for example. Put a tamper-resistant sticker over the switch for software vendors. I know some AV solutions for Windows have come via USB sticks - netbooks and similar sized machines are enough of a market without an optical drive to make that a useful feature to have. I know I'd pay an extra $5 for software to come on a reusable disk, as opposed to a single-purpose DVD. I only burn ISOs for old OSes (XP and the like) - or for machines that won't accept USB boot. From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 18:45:04 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:45:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Operating systems on a Blu-Ray disc In-Reply-To: References: <20111005235959.0b8171f6.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 11 Oct 2011, Keith Bachman wrote: > True. Write-protected flash drives do exist - I have a 512MB one I use > for booting up cleaning tools, for example. Put a tamper-resistant > sticker over the switch for software vendors. > > I know some AV solutions for Windows have come via USB sticks - netbooks > and similar sized machines are enough of a market without an optical > drive to make that a useful feature to have. > > I know I'd pay an extra $5 for software to come on a reusable disk, as > opposed to a single-purpose DVD. > > I only burn ISOs for old OSes (XP and the like) - or for machines that > won't accept USB boot. I think it's a great idea, but I think it might not work for a company like Microsoft that wants to exert a lot of control over what users are doing. If the flash drive is write-protected, then it isn't reusable, right? It looks like the cheapest 8GB USB flash drives are going for $8. On the other hand, I like the idea for Linux distros if it were possible to buy one, especially an updatable one. An Ubuntu live USB drive that allowed me to make some changes to the defaults and save them and add packages -- I would buy that. I would think it's possible to make such a thing but I don't want to figure it all out. I would to pay for it and have it just work. Just having it remember my preferred Gnome Terminal settings would be pretty great, as would having my own .bash* configuration and .inputrc files. Now I'm starting to think I might want to make one if I can't buy one. Mike From nesius at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 00:00:30 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 00:00:30 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 11.10 Message-ID: Anyone tried it yet? Does Unity suck less? -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From j at packetgod.com Fri Oct 14 01:04:31 2011 From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 01:04:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 11.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I still am not a big fan although it does work well on my touchscreen as a good interface to launch apps. So I'm warming up to it on that device but on all my other systems I've tried it for a few weeks then dumped it for gnome. At this point I think I'm done with desktops, I'm going back to what I remember as the good old days and just using Fluxbox, it always looked so good and it was quick, easy and I had everything at my fingertips. --j On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Robert Nesius wrote: > Anyone tried it yet? > > Does Unity suck less? > > -Rob > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > From nesius at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 01:35:50 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 01:35:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 11.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the pointer to fluxbox - first I've heard of it. Looks like something I'd have fun exploring. -Rob On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:04 AM, J Cruit wrote: > I still am not a big fan although it does work well on my touchscreen > as a good interface to launch apps. So I'm warming up to it on that > device but on all my other systems I've tried it for a few weeks then > dumped it for gnome. > > At this point I think I'm done with desktops, I'm going back to what I > remember as the good old days and just using Fluxbox, it always looked > so good and it was quick, easy and I had everything at my fingertips. > > --j > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Robert Nesius wrote: > > Anyone tried it yet? > > > > Does Unity suck less? > > > > -Rob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 07:33:04 2011 From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 07:33:04 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 11.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Plus one for fluxbox if you're a minimalist. I use LXDE (not the specific Ubuntu take on it, but I believe that is called Lubuntu). It's nice to have fast, low bloat alternatives still around. With LXDE you can compile legacy versions of most Gnome apps for GTK2 so everything looks the same (GTK2 + 3 just isn't very pleasant, I don't care what anyone says). -- Jeremy MountainJohnson Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:35 AM, Robert Nesius wrote: > Thanks for the pointer to fluxbox - first I've heard of it. Looks like > something I'd have fun exploring. > > -Rob > > > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:04 AM, J Cruit wrote: > >> I still am not a big fan although it does work well on my touchscreen >> as a good interface to launch apps. So I'm warming up to it on that >> device but on all my other systems I've tried it for a few weeks then >> dumped it for gnome. >> >> At this point I think I'm done with desktops, I'm going back to what I >> remember as the good old days and just using Fluxbox, it always looked >> so good and it was quick, easy and I had everything at my fingertips. >> >> --j >> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Robert Nesius wrote: >> > Anyone tried it yet? >> > >> > Does Unity suck less? >> > >> > -Rob >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 14:07:09 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:07:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Dennis Ritchie, 70, Dies, Programming Trailblazer Message-ID: Dennis Ritchie developed both UNIX and the C programming language. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/14/technology/dennis-ritchie-programming-trailblazer-dies-at-70.html N.Y. Times October 13, 2011 Dennis Ritchie, Trailblazer in Digital Era, Dies at 70 By STEVE LOHR Dennis M. Ritchie, who helped shape the modern digital era by creating software tools that power things as diverse as search engines like Google and smartphones, was found dead on Wednesday at his home in Berkeley Heights, N.J. He was 70. Mr. Ritchie, who lived alone, was in frail health in recent years after treatment for prostate cancer and heart disease, said his brother Bill. In the late 1960s and early '70s, working at Bell Labs, Mr. Ritchie made a pair of lasting contributions to computer science. He was the principal designer of the C programming language and co-developer of the Unix operating system, working closely with Ken Thompson, his longtime Bell Labs collaborator. The C programming language, a shorthand of words, numbers and punctuation, is still widely used today, and successors like C++ and Java build on the ideas, rules and grammar that Mr. Ritchie designed. The Unix operating system has similarly had a rich and enduring impact. Its free, open-source variant, Linux, powers many of the world's data centers, like those at Google and Amazon, and its technology serves as the foundation of operating systems, like Apple's iOS, in consumer computing devices. "The tools that Dennis built -- and their direct descendants -- run pretty much everything today," said Brian Kernighan, a computer scientist at Princeton University who worked with Mr. Ritchie at Bell Labs. Those tools were more than inventive bundles of computer code. The C language and Unix reflected a point of view, a different philosophy of computing than what had come before. In the late '60s and early '70s, minicomputers were moving into companies and universities -- smaller and at a fraction of the price of hulking mainframes. Minicomputers represented a step in the democratization of computing, and Unix and C were designed to open up computing to more people and collaborative working styles. Mr. Ritchie, Mr. Thompson and their Bell Labs colleagues were making not merely software but, as Mr. Ritchie once put it, "a system around which fellowship can form." C was designed for systems programmers who wanted to get the fastest performance from operating systems, compilers and other programs. "C is not a big language -- it's clean, simple, elegant," Mr. Kernighan said. "It lets you get close to the machine, without getting tied up in the machine." Such higher-level languages had earlier been intended mainly to let people without a lot of programming skill write programs that could run on mainframes. Fortran was for scientists and engineers, while Cobol was for business managers. C, like Unix, was designed mainly to let the growing ranks of professional programmers work more productively. And it steadily gained popularity. With Mr. Kernighan, Mr. Ritchie wrote a classic text, "The C Programming Language," also known as "K. & R." after the authors' initials, whose two editions, in 1978 and 1988, have sold millions of copies and been translated into 25 languages. Dennis MacAlistair Ritchie was born on Sept. 9, 1941, in Bronxville, N.Y. His father, Alistair, was an engineer at Bell Labs, and his mother, Jean McGee Ritchie, was a homemaker. When he was a child, the family moved to Summit, N.J., where Mr. Ritchie grew up and attended high school. He then went to Harvard, where he majored in applied mathematics. While a graduate student at Harvard, Mr. Ritchie worked at the computer center at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and became more interested in computing than math. He was recruited by the Sandia National Laboratories, which conducted weapons research and testing. "But it was nearly 1968," Mr. Ritchie recalled in an interview in 2001, "and somehow making A-bombs for the government didn't seem in tune with the times." Mr. Ritchie joined Bell Labs in 1967, and soon began his fruitful collaboration with Mr. Thompson on both Unix and the C programming language. The pair represented the two different strands of the nascent discipline of computer science. Mr. Ritchie came to computing from math, while Mr. Thompson came from electrical engineering. "We were very complementary," said Mr. Thompson, who is now an engineer at Google. "Sometimes personalities clash, and sometimes they meld. It was just good with Dennis." Besides his brother Bill, of Alexandria, Va., Mr. Ritchie is survived by another brother, John, of Newton, Mass., and a sister, Lynn Ritchie of Hexham, England. Mr. Ritchie traveled widely and read voraciously, but friends and family members say his main passion was his work. He remained at Bell Labs, working on various research projects, until he retired in 2007. Colleagues who worked with Mr. Ritchie were struck by his code -- meticulous, clean and concise. His writing, according to Mr. Kernighan, was similar. "There was a remarkable precision to his writing," Mr. Kernighan said, "no extra words, elegant and spare, much like his code." From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Sat Oct 15 21:30:20 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 21:30:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 11.10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111015213020.cf65bc120e8050475ad9ecf4@jasonhsu.com> I insist on having a desktop environment in my main OS. I just have to have the convenience of clickable icons on the screen. I guess using Mac (in the 1990s), Windows 95, Windows 98, and Windows XP have conditioned me to expect this. Puppy Linux, antiX Linux, and SliTaz prove that having a desktop environment doesn't have to mean bloatware. Even Damn Small Linux offered a desktop environment. I think that Ubuntu has jumped the shark. I've tried Ubuntu 11.04 in VirtualBox. It took a LONG time to install, and it felt slow and clunky. Xubuntu 11.04 wasn't that much better, and there was serious lag when I clicked on a file manager icon on the desktop. Ubuntu LTS is faster to operate and takes up much less time to load. The new Ubuntu is reminding me too much of what I didn't like about Windows. I'm not sure why Canonical couldn't just come up with a separate tablet OS (even if it had to borrow parts of Ubuntu in order to do so). The controversy over Ubuntu, Unity, GNOME 3, and KDE 4 highlights the importance of the diversity of solutions in the Linux community. This controversy is THE answer to the complaints that there are too many distros. If Ubuntu were the only distro, Linux would be in big trouble. Fortunately, Ubuntu has competitors like Linux Mint (which recently made the first official release of the Debian Edition), Fedora, OpenSUSE, Sabayon, and others. This is an unprecedented opportunity for all other distros to attract Ubuntu users looking for an alternative. It appears that Linux Mint is gaining the most users. If LMDE can give users everything they liked about Ubuntu-based Mint, then we will enter the Linux Mint Era of Linux. I installed LMDE with XFCE as my main distro today, and it's winning me over. I'm seriously considering switching from antiX to LMDE as the basis for Swift Linux. If I go this route, I'll be putting LMDE on a similar diet as the one that antiX Linux uses to shrink MEPIS. The controversy over GNOME 3 and KDE 4 is an unprecedented opportunity for lightweight distros and lightweight DEs/WMs. Puppy Linux, antiX Linux, and SliTaz all use ROX Pinboard DEs. Puppy Linux uses JWM for its WM, antiX Linux uses IceWM, and SliTaz uses OpenBox. On Fri, 14 Oct 2011 01:04:31 -0500 J Cruit wrote: > I still am not a big fan although it does work well on my touchscreen > as a good interface to launch apps. So I'm warming up to it on that > device but on all my other systems I've tried it for a few weeks then > dumped it for gnome. > > At this point I think I'm done with desktops, I'm going back to what I > remember as the good old days and just using Fluxbox, it always looked > so good and it was quick, easy and I had everything at my fingertips. > > --j > -- Jason Hsu From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Sat Oct 15 22:12:02 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:12:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals Message-ID: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> Linux embodies capitalist ideals, because nobody is locked into any one distro, and there are few barriers to entry. As I have proven with Swift Linux, you don't need permission or authorization to start a new Linux distro. Some people complain that there are too many distros, and I couldn't disagree more. The presence of so many distros illustrates that there are so many ideas. Most don't work out, but the few that do really advance the Linux world. And just about everyone agrees that first-time Linux users should pick from one of the top few distros for better support. For the first few years, Linux didn't come with GUIs. But by 2000, several distros came with GUIs, and it essentially became mandatory for all other distros to include one. Today, only distros like Arch, Slackware, and Gentoo can attract users without one. Where would Linux be today without a GUI? There was once a time when trying out Linux required installing it. Then KNOPPIX pioneered the live CD that gave you the option of either trying out Linux or installing it. As a result, the live CD capability became mandatory for every distro. Today, only distros like Arch, Slackware, and Gentoo can attract users without this feature. KNOPPIX has lost its prominence, but the live CD lives on. The "creative destruction" process works in the Linux world. Perhaps the leading distro stops evolving, dies, or jumps the shark. At least one of the hundreds of other distros will manage to fill in the void left by the departing distro. If we're seeing the beginning of the end of Ubuntu, there are other distros eager to fill the void, and the people who want fewer Ubuntu derivatives will get their wish. CrunchBang was originally Ubuntu-based but is now Debian based. Linux Mint seems to be in the process of switching from Ubuntu to Debian and currently straddles both bases. I suspect that these won't be the only distros to make the switch. Several once-prominent distros rose and fell before Ubuntu began. The cycle will continue as long as we're using computers. In contrast to the open source world, the world of Microsoft Windows, Office, and other products is just a Communist country governed by Microsoft. Instead of smoke-belching Trabants, Microsoft puts out bloated, insecure, unstable, and uneconomical software and operating systems. A few people at the top benefit at the expense of the people. Thus, Communism and crony capitalism aren't that different from each other. -- Jason Hsu From tclug at freakzilla.com Sat Oct 15 22:59:43 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 22:59:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: Jason, I absolutely LOVE your enthusiasm and, dare I say it, youthful exuberance. Please don't take this as a personal slight, and before anyone even CONSIDERS this to be flame I should say that people with Jason's drive are exactly the kind of people that embody the best about Linux/FOSS/etc. Having said that... First of all, Linux always had a GUI. As soon as X Windows was ported to it, anyway. I think that when you say "GUI" you mean a fully integrated desktop environment, like Gnome, KDE and Unity. We had X for many, many MANY years before those guys, and X was always a GUI. X also always includes XWM, waaay back in the 1980s, which predates, among other things, linux! As for distros including desktop environments - I've mentioned before that no matter what distro I use (my desktop is currently Mint but might be going back to 'regular' ubuntu), Gnome, KDE and/or Unity are absolutely banned. I'm still using the same window manager I've used since 1997 with barely any configuration changes. My system is now a multi-core machine with two video cards and three monitors, and I've not had to change Window Maker's configuration at all. How cool is that? You say that some people complain about having too many distros, and you disagree with that. I do agree with you, but you might want to read "The Paradox of Choice". Sometimes having too many choices can be a BAD thing. You and I may be able to quite easily filter through all the Linux distro choices and get a coherent "This Is What I Want" choice going. Try to put yourself in the position of a person who's never used anything but OS X or Windows and for some reason wants to try Linux, and has to choose between 100+ distros. Hell, this person might not even know there is such a thing as distros! Luckily for that person, when they type "Linux" into Google, the first hit is Ubuntu's website. They click on that, they get themselves a Linux. If they had to muddle through all the distros to figure out which one is the right one for them, they're more than likely to just give up. Now for the whole "Linux is Capitalism/Microsoft is Communism" thing. First of all, I think you mean totalitarianism rather than communism. Second. Microsoft and it's success are the epitome of capitalism. Microsoft leveraged it's limited early successes and later it's incredible market power to crush competition and control the market. They became a monopoly, but they did not become one by government decree. They became one because they were VERY GOOD at manipulating the capitalist marketplace. I will remind you that there /was/ indeed a government anti-trust suit against Microsoft, which ended (after many years) with a slight slap on the wrist. Microsoft is no longer the dominant tech company. And it wasn't the government that took them off the top spot - it was, again, the capitalist market. Microsoft got so big and slow that they totally missed the boat on taking over The Internet. Yes, Windows is still big, and yes Office is still the #1 productivity suite, but the battle ground is no longer on the desktop. Now Linux, which you say embodies capitalism... mmm. No. I can take your Swift Linux, change it's name to Sloth Linux and go from there. Without asking you, without telling you, without anything. That's not capitalism. Your software, your hard work, is now a communal resource. And for 10 points, kids, what word sounds a lot like "Communal"? There are companies competing in the Free Market that are in the business of Linux. But they don't really make their money off Linux. Take Red Hat, for example. Or literally, take Red Hat Enterprise Linux. Does it have anything substantial that can't be incorporated into any of the free major distributions? In fact, do they not contribute a lot of code to Linux as a whole? No, they make their money off services centered around Linux. But you can go ahead and take their code and use it in your own projects. That is not "capitalism". Naturally it's not all black and white. Linux isn't actually communism. Or capitalism. Or libertarianism, etc, etc. Neither is Microsoft. That's my real point in all this, really. If you actually read this caffeine-fueled essay and you actually take ONE THING from it, please make it this: Nothing is Black and White. Linux is not always the best solution. Microsoft is not always evil. OS X isn't always... uh... used by hipster snobs (I'm using it and I'm not a hipster). All these shades of grey are what makes this whole tech thing fun. -Y -- From cncole at earthlink.net Sun Oct 16 05:57:34 2011 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 05:57:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: +1 Yaron sed it well! > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Yaron > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2011 11:00 PM > To: TCLUG > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals > From erikerik at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 16:03:07 2011 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:03:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 10:12 PM, Jason Hsu wrote: > In contrast to the open source world, the world of Microsoft Windows, Office, and other products is just a Communist > country governed by Microsoft. ?Instead of smoke-belching Trabants, Microsoft puts out bloated, insecure, unstable, > and uneconomical software and operating systems. ?A few people at the top benefit at the expense of the people. First off, well said, Yaron. Now, Jason: While I think we all enjoy partaking in a bit of Microsoft bashing every now and again, it is statements like the above that do absolutely no good to anyone. In fact, they oftentimes harm the F/OSS community due to the elitism and arrogance portrayed. As Yaron said, there are some times when Microsoft has the right solution to a problem, just as there are some times when a F/OSS solution is the right answer. I will concede that Microsoft's operating systems are horribly bloated. That said, Windows 7 and its server variant Server 2008 R2 are actually *very* stable and *very* secure. As part of my day job, I maintain 30 or 40 Windows Server systems, some of which are being used by thousands of people per day and hundreds of people simultaneously in a campus LAN environment. I have no more issues with those systems than I do with the 60 linux servers I maintain. No offense Jason, but it sounds like you haven't had much experience administrating Windows systems, at least not recently anyway. As is the case with any system, Windows, Linux, *BSD, or otherwise, the system is only as secure as its administrator is competent and the applications thereon are secure. The best thing we can do for Linux and the rest of F/OSS is stay positive and stay passionate about Linux. Recognize that Linux has a lot of strengths, but it is not the be-all and end-all to computing systems. Be willing and able to use and interact with other technologies when necessary. If we start "going off the deep end" in the other direction too far (dare I say RMS?), we will only succeed in alienating others. Regarding linux GUIs: what are those? Just gimme a shell and I'm more than happy. :) -Erik P.S. I just uncovered an oldish (read: slow) MiniITX system I had sitting around and I'll likely be kicking the Swift Linux tires on it shortly. Typically I'm an Ubuntu guy, but I think performance would be sub-par on this 5-year-old system. From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 16:05:26 2011 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:05:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals Message-ID: Yaron: > Now Linux, which you say embodies capitalism... mmm. No. I can take your > Swift Linux, change it's name to Sloth Linux and go from there. Without > asking you, without telling you, without anything. That's not capitalism. > Your software, your hard work, is now a communal resource. And for 10 > points, kids, what word sounds a lot like "Communal"? Yeah, I'm a little unsure of how he plans to make money from his work on Swift Linux. Better late than never in terms of thinking about that. ?Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." Matthew 7:6 -- Brian Wood Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From erikerik at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 16:49:33 2011 From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:49:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Ubuntu 11.10 In-Reply-To: <20111015213020.cf65bc120e8050475ad9ecf4@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111015213020.cf65bc120e8050475ad9ecf4@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 9:30 PM, Jason Hsu wrote: > I think that Ubuntu has jumped the shark. ?I've tried Ubuntu 11.04 in VirtualBox. ?It took a LONG time to install, and it > felt slow and clunky. I'd be curious to hear what hardware this was on. I just installed it in 1GB RAM VirtualBox VM on my 2-year old Macbook Pro and it took 1:05 to get to the install start screen, and from then to getting signed in for the first time was just over 15 minutes. I consider that to be fairly acceptable considering the age of my hardware and the relative pokey nature of the 5400 RPM hard drive. From nesius at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 11:19:49 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:19:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: Hi Jason, First, let me tell you a little about a younger version of myself. Young Rob was raised in a culturally conservative climate where "commie" was the worst kind of slur you could sling at someone, to the point where "commie" and "bad" were interchangeable in sentences. And REAL commies could not fathom the superiority of our economic and political processes due to some inherent flaw in their DNA. And Young Rob knew this because he lived in rural Minnesota and when he turned on the TV to watch the evening news, the news he and everyone else who was watching TV at that moment in time were seeing - it was in fact the news from Fargo (NOT the SIN CITIES!). That obviously meant culture and intellectual thought flowed from Fargo the way it did from Rome at the height of another great civilization and empire. Years later Young Rob learned of localized television markets and marveled at his ignorance and ethnocentrism, but slept soundly at night knowing his contempt for commies was still justified.. Linux and capitalistic ideals. I think Linux isn't quite the right context for a conversation about Capitalism and choice. I think Linux is a very useful context when you talk about distributed software engineering and project management and the power of the GPL. But I think the concepts that are more applicable to the ideas you're talking about are Freedom, the Gnu Public License, and the Noosphere. First off, when I talk about Freedom, I'm talking about choice. Capitalism is often conflated with the concept of freedom because you are considered "free to make a profit". But not everyone's freedom's are being protected in a capitalistic/"free-market" society - especially in a society where the political parties are proxies for corporate interests who insist that "freedom to make a profit" is "the most important freedom". As you noted, you have a lot of freedom and choices in the Linux world, and that's thanks to the GPL, which is preventing people from taking choices away from you. It was a lack of choice and freedom that inspired Stallman to come up with the GPL in the first place. For Stallman, it was the lack of choice regarding the software running on a printer he owned. As an aside - on a personal note, I find it ironic that one of the things I hate the most - copyright - has done the most good for our society with respect to protecting people's choices about contributions they make to FOSS projects. Anyway - the GPL. It does world good, because it keeps people's contributions in the public domain. Now take a step back and look at the number of people who have contributed hours upon hours of effort to the public domain via the GPL for no economic gain and ask yourself "Why would they do that?" (Because they're stupid communists! HA! :) ). Well, maybe look at this question from a historical context, because now becoming a major contributor to a FOSS project can very easily lead to a job offer because a lot of the big FOSS projects have corporations sitting behind them selling services at an enterprise level. So - take away the "a very long job interview" angle and what are you left with? Why are people motivated to interact and contribute on these projects? Eric Raymond realized there was an id-friendly ego-stroke dimension to it all as well. He coined the term "noosphere" and described some of the motivations for developer activity on these projects from the point of view of psychology and sociology in a paper entitled "Homestead the Noosphere". I found it to be a very interesting read, and I think you would too if you haven't read it yet. Especially since I think it speaks to some of your motivations for working on Swift Linux. http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/homesteading/ Once you're done with that, I would suggest you check out "The Cathedral and the Bazaar", which relates the FOSS development model to the Microsoftian (among other corporations) models. http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/ Enjoy! -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 12:16:59 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:16:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4E9C630B.6080202@gmail.com> On 10/15/2011 10:12 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss: > > Today, only distros like Arch, Slackware, and Gentoo can attract users without one. FYI - A vanilla full Slackware 13.37 install comes with 7 (That's SEVEN) different GUI's to choose from. KDE, XFCE, Fluxbox, Blackbox, WindowMaker, FVWM, and Tab window manager. Gnome is available from 3rd parties if one want to that route (although not officially supported). Just because Slackware doesn't force one upon you (leaving it up to the user to decide which one they like to use, if any) doesn't mean it doesn't have one. It also runs lite(well) on old hardware too. You should check it. From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 13:27:48 2011 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:27:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals Message-ID: Robert Nesius: > Anyway - the GPL. It does world good, because it keeps people's > contributions in the public domain. When the US helped defeat Nazi Germany, anyone who shared the country's secrets was a traitor. Keeping some things secret from Germany and Japan helped us to defeat some countries that would have destroyed us if they could have. Does "world good" have anything to do with being a decent person? > Now take a step back and look at the > number of people who have contributed hours upon hours of effort to the > public domain via the GPL for no economic gain and ask yourself "Why would > they do that?" (Because they're stupid communists! HA! :) ). Some of them have been naive and haven't been rewarded much for their efforts. Others have taken advantage of that and made a lot off of the generosity of some well-meaning people. -- Brian Wood Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug at freakzilla.com Mon Oct 17 13:31:28 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:31:28 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Oct 2011, Brian Wood wrote: > When the US helped defeat Nazi Germany, anyone who shared Aaaaand Brian just Godwinned the thread. DISCUSSION OVER. -Yaron -- From nesius at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 14:33:12 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:33:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > Robert Nesius: > > Anyway - the GPL. It does world good, because it keeps people's > > contributions in the public domain. > > When the US helped defeat Nazi Germany, anyone who shared > the country's secrets was a traitor. Keeping some things secret > from Germany and Japan helped us to defeat some countries that > would have destroyed us if they could have. Does "world good" > have anything to do with being a decent person? > Well, I was coming at this from a "commons" point of view, where people give back to that which benefits them. > > Now take a step back and look at the > > number of people who have contributed hours upon hours of effort to the > > public domain via the GPL for no economic gain and ask yourself "Why > would > > they do that?" (Because they're stupid communists! HA! :) ). > > Some of them have been naive and haven't been rewarded much > for their efforts. Others have taken advantage of that and made > a lot off of the generosity of some well-meaning people. > I would say most haven't been rewarded for their efforts when it's all said and done. At least not in terms of money. But many were rewarded in terms of noosphere credibility, admiration of peers, and by the knowledge their work would not be available to be used by others and not hi-jacked thanks to the GPL. Not that all FOSS developers are as concerned about that. i.e., BSD and Apache licenses are very permissive with respect to appropriation for commercial use I believe. -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From random at argle.org Tue Oct 18 07:57:37 2011 From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 07:57:37 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> Honestly, I thing that ESR's take on the motivations for participating in Free software development are misguided and apply only to a minority of the contributors. I make changes to Free Software projects when they fail to meet my needs in some specific way that I can remedy. I offer my changes back to the community so that others might benefit from them. Looking at many of the core developers for the same projects, they started the same way. No ego boosts, no "noosphere", just a task that needed doing and a willingness to share the results with others. Maybe it's me that's the odd one here, but I see it as a perfectly rational transaction, programming time in exchange for working code. Neither capitalist nor communist, but something more closely resembling a mass-barter system where most of the participants are making a living by using the software that they work on rather than by buying or selling the software itself. Obviously there are other layers to the Free Software ecosystem, but without that root the rest doesn't really work out so well. -- Dan From mark.katerberg at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 08:27:20 2011 From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:27:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> Message-ID: I thought Godwin's was invoked... doesn't that mean this political argument can leave the list? On Oct 18, 2011 8:05 AM, "Daniel Taylor" wrote: > Honestly, I thing that ESR's take on the motivations for participating > in Free software development are misguided and apply only to a minority > of the contributors. > > I make changes to Free Software projects when they fail to meet my needs > in some specific way that I can remedy. I offer my changes back to the > community so that others might benefit from them. > > Looking at many of the core developers for the same projects, they > started the same way. No ego boosts, no "noosphere", just a task that > needed doing and a willingness to share the results with others. > > > Maybe it's me that's the odd one here, but I see it as a perfectly > rational transaction, programming time in exchange for working code. > > Neither capitalist nor communist, but something more closely resembling > a mass-barter system where most of the participants are making a living > by using the software that they work on rather than by buying or selling > the software itself. > > Obviously there are other layers to the Free Software ecosystem, but > without that root the rest doesn't really work out so well. > > -- > Dan > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kelly.black at penguinpackets.com Tue Oct 18 08:41:57 2011 From: kelly.black at penguinpackets.com (kelly) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 08:41:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> Message-ID: <0000227492@penguinpackets.com> Invocation of ESR and or RSM cancels Godwin's law, but only on LUG lists. Kelly > Tue Oct 18 2011 08:27:20 AM CDT from "Mark Katerberg" > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist >ideals > > > >I thought Godwin's was invoked... doesn't that mean this political argument >can leave the list? On Oct 18, 2011 8:05 AM, "Daniel Taylor" > wrote: > >>Honestly, I thing that ESR's take on the motivations for participating >> in Free software development are misguided and apply only to a minority >> of the contributors. >> >> I make changes to Free Software projects when they fail to meet my needs >> in some specific way that I can remedy. I offer my changes back to the >> community so that others might benefit from them. >> >> Looking at many of the core developers for the same projects, they >> started the same way. No ego boosts, no "noosphere", just a task that >> needed doing and a willingness to share the results with others. >> >> >> Maybe it's me that's the odd one here, but I see it as a perfectly >> rational transaction, programming time in exchange for working code. >> >> Neither capitalist nor communist, but something more closely resembling >> a mass-barter system where most of the participants are making a living >> by using the software that they work on rather than by buying or selling >> the software itself. >> >> Obviously there are other layers to the Free Software ecosystem, but >> without that root the rest doesn't really work out so well. >> >> -- >> Dan >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > > > > (, 0 bytes) Download > > > > > > > ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: URL: From random at argle.org Tue Oct 18 09:01:07 2011 From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:01:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <0000227492@penguinpackets.com> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> <0000227492@penguinpackets.com> Message-ID: <4E9D86A3.8060409@argle.org> That, and I originally composed the message pre-Nazi, I just needed to wait to send it for DNS to update because the listserver is checking SPF on HELO, and I had the sending machine set too restrictively for that. Of course, that particular interpretation of Godwin's law makes it impossible to discuss world history from 1933-1945 on a mailing list. On 10/18/2011 08:41 AM, kelly wrote: > Invocation of ESR and or RSM cancels Godwin's law, but only on LUG lists. > > Kelly > > Tue Oct 18 2011 08:27:20 AM CDT from "Mark Katerberg" > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux and > capitalist ideals > > I thought Godwin's was invoked... doesn't that mean this political > argument can leave the list? > > On Oct 18, 2011 8:05 AM, "Daniel Taylor" > > wrote: > > Honestly, I thing that ESR's take on the motivations for > participating > in Free software development are misguided and apply only to a > minority > of the contributors. > > I make changes to Free Software projects when they fail to meet > my needs > in some specific way that I can remedy. I offer my changes back > to the > community so that others might benefit from them. > > Looking at many of the core developers for the same projects, they > started the same way. No ego boosts, no "noosphere", just a task > that > needed doing and a willingness to share the results with others. > > > Maybe it's me that's the odd one here, but I see it as a perfectly > rational transaction, programming time in exchange for working code. > > Neither capitalist nor communist, but something more closely > resembling > a mass-barter system where most of the participants are making a > living > by using the software that they work on rather than by buying or > selling > the software itself. > > Obviously there are other layers to the Free Software ecosystem, but > without that root the rest doesn't really work out so well. > > -- > Dan > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > (, 0 bytes) Download > > > > > > This body part will be downloaded on demand. From nesius at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:08:29 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:08:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 7:57 AM, Daniel Taylor wrote: > Honestly, I thing that ESR's take on the motivations for participating > in Free software development are misguided and apply only to a minority > of the contributors. > > I make changes to Free Software projects when they fail to meet my needs > in some specific way that I can remedy. I offer my changes back to the > community so that others might benefit from them. > > Looking at many of the core developers for the same projects, they > started the same way. No ego boosts, no "noosphere", just a task that > needed doing and a willingness to share the results with others. > > > Maybe it's me that's the odd one here, but I see it as a perfectly > rational transaction, programming time in exchange for working code. > > Neither capitalist nor communist, but something more closely resembling > a mass-barter system where most of the participants are making a living > by using the software that they work on rather than by buying or selling > the software itself. > > Obviously there are other layers to the Free Software ecosystem, but > without that root the rest doesn't really work out so well. > > Hi Dan, I was thinking about this more myself yesterday, and agree that "noosphere" doesn't account for everything, but does account for a lot. I think game theory provides a better model for thinking about FOSS models and contributions, and that ultimately ESR's paper actually is scratching one facet of the game-theory gem with respect to the actors in FOSS projects. (It's an important facet though.) People who study game theory perform valuations in a rather soulless currency called a 'util', and then make inferences about the 'util' of an action or outcome to the actor based on observed behaviors. In your own example, you're exchanging time for working code without any sort of praise or thanks. One might infer that for you the 'util' of working code is high, and the util of public recognition is low. You noted a lot developers valued public recognition less, and valued making a contribution to the community and also valued the act of doing the job (sheer enjoyment of programming). And another individual (name escapes me at the moment) noted some of those people were perhaps naive and exploited. But, that really depends on how the actors valued the outcomes - whether or not they were exploited really depends on how they feel as those are in fact subjective assessments. In summary you're right - there are a lot of motivations out there for contributing to programs. I agree ESR's paper doesn't quite cover the entire spectrum, but I think he does cover an important aspect of FOSS project dynamics. -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From florin at iucha.net Tue Oct 18 10:45:49 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:45:49 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Godwin's Law Was: Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: <4E9D86A3.8060409@argle.org> References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> <4E9D77C1.7080409@argle.org> <0000227492@penguinpackets.com> <4E9D86A3.8060409@argle.org> Message-ID: <20111018154548.GE2336@styx.iucha.org> On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 09:01:07AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote: > That, and I originally composed the message pre-Nazi, I just needed to > wait to send it for DNS to update because the listserver is checking SPF > on HELO, and I had the sending machine set too restrictively for that. > > Of course, that particular interpretation of Godwin's law makes it > impossible to discuss world history from 1933-1945 on a mailing list. Make that 1921 to oo. Even Godwin himself feels bad about it: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/09/no-nazi-comparisons-sounds-like-something-hitler-would-say.ars Cheers, florin -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Wed Oct 19 12:31:45 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:31:45 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Cramming data into a smaller ISO file Message-ID: <20111019123145.7976827771412ddd0b68be19@jasonhsu.com> One of my challenges in developing Swift Linux is providing preinstalled OpenOffice/LibreOffice WHILE keeping the ISO file small enough to fit onto a CD (under 700 MB). So far, I've been able to do it by cutting features that I consider to be redundant or less essential. Examples include support for languages other than English, extra window managers, extra themes, command-line-only tools that the average Linux user doesn't use, etc. Is there a way I can squeeze a given amount of data into a smaller ISO file WITHOUT negative ramifications? The two main steps that the antiX Linux remastering script (which the Swift Linux remastering scripts are based on) uses to create the ISO file are: 1. make_squashfs $1: The command is "mksquashfs $1 new-iso/antiX/antiX -noappend". This creates an executable file on the CD. 2. make_iso $ISONAME: The command is "mkisofs -l -J -pad -no-emul-boot -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table -b boot/isolinux/isolinux.bin -c boot/isolinux/isolinux.cat -o $1 $REM/new-iso && isohybrid $1 $REM/new-iso". All of my remastering scripts are on GitHub at https://github.com/swiftlinux/1-build. (NOTE: I will soon be adding a "z-antix-" to the beginning of each repository name as I switch from an antiX Linux base to a Linux Mint Debian Edition base.) -- Jason Hsu From bgilbertson at rrt.net Wed Oct 19 13:05:38 2011 From: bgilbertson at rrt.net (Robert Gilbertson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:05:38 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Cramming data into a smaller ISO file Message-ID: <4e9f1172.16a8.b58ffb70.3c4ff324@rrt.net> Jason, PC LinuxOS solves this by leaving *Office off the CD but having a script called lomanager that installs/removes/updates *Office. They put an icon on desktop for it during Linux install so new user will find it easily. Their LiveCD should let you try it to see if it is an approach you want to take. Regards, Bob On Wednesday 19/10/2011 at 12:32 pm, Jason Hsu wrote: > One of my challenges in developing Swift Linux is providing > preinstalled OpenOffice/LibreOffice WHILE keeping the ISO file small > enough to fit onto a CD (under 700 MB). So far, I've been able to do > it by cutting features that I consider to be redundant or less > essential. Examples include support for languages other than English, > extra window managers, extra themes, command-line-only tools that the > average Linux user doesn't use, etc. > > Is there a way I can squeeze a given amount of data into a smaller ISO > file WITHOUT negative ramifications? > > The two main steps that the antiX Linux remastering script (which the > Swift Linux remastering scripts are based on) uses to create the ISO > file are: > 1. make_squashfs $1: The command is "mksquashfs $1 > new-iso/antiX/antiX -noappend". This creates an executable file on > the CD. > 2. make_iso $ISONAME: The command is "mkisofs -l -J -pad > -no-emul-boot -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table -b > boot/isolinux/isolinux.bin -c boot/isolinux/isolinux.cat -o $1 > $REM/new-iso && isohybrid $1 $REM/new-iso". > > All of my remastering scripts are on GitHub at > https://github.com/swiftlinux/1-build. (NOTE: I will soon be adding a > "z-antix-" to the beginning of each repository name as I switch from > an antiX Linux base to a Linux Mint Debian Edition base.) > > -- > Jason Hsu > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Wed Oct 19 13:36:04 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:36:04 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Cramming data into a smaller ISO file In-Reply-To: <4e9f1172.16a8.b58ffb70.3c4ff324@rrt.net> References: <4e9f1172.16a8.b58ffb70.3c4ff324@rrt.net> Message-ID: <20111019133604.f6888a6618aeb3a76ecdc7ad@jasonhsu.com> That is a nice touch, but I'd rather give Swift Linux users the option of having LibreOffice (at least the word processor, spreadsheet, and presentation programs) preinstalled. That's what separates Regular Swift Linux from Diet Swift Linux. OpenOffice/LibreOffice is one of the most widely used programs. If I can find a way to compress data into a smaller ISO file, that's just as good as cutting out unnecessary programs. On Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:05:38 -0500 Robert Gilbertson wrote: > Jason, > > PC LinuxOS solves this by leaving *Office off the CD but having a > script called lomanager that installs/removes/updates *Office. > They put an icon on desktop for it during Linux install so new user > will find it easily. > Their LiveCD should let you try it to see if it is an approach you > want to take. > > Regards, > Bob > -- Jason Hsu From josh at tcbug.org Wed Oct 19 14:43:16 2011 From: josh at tcbug.org (Josh Paetzel) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 12:43:16 -0700 Subject: [tclug-list] Cramming data into a smaller ISO file In-Reply-To: <20111019123145.7976827771412ddd0b68be19@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111019123145.7976827771412ddd0b68be19@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4E9F2854.7000708@tcbug.org> On 10/19/11 10:31, Jason Hsu wrote: > One of my challenges in developing Swift Linux is providing preinstalled OpenOffice/LibreOffice WHILE keeping the ISO file small enough to fit onto a CD (under 700 MB). So far, I've been able to do it by cutting features that I consider to be redundant or less essential. Examples include support for languages other than English, extra window managers, extra themes, command-line-only tools that the average Linux user doesn't use, etc. > > Is there a way I can squeeze a given amount of data into a smaller ISO file WITHOUT negative ramifications? > > The two main steps that the antiX Linux remastering script (which the Swift Linux remastering scripts are based on) uses to create the ISO file are: > 1. make_squashfs $1: The command is "mksquashfs $1 new-iso/antiX/antiX -noappend". This creates an executable file on the CD. > 2. make_iso $ISONAME: The command is "mkisofs -l -J -pad -no-emul-boot -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table -b boot/isolinux/isolinux.bin -c boot/isolinux/isolinux.cat -o $1 $REM/new-iso && isohybrid $1 $REM/new-iso". > > All of my remastering scripts are on GitHub at https://github.com/swiftlinux/1-build. (NOTE: I will soon be adding a "z-antix-" to the beginning of each repository name as I switch from an antiX Linux base to a Linux Mint Debian Edition base.) > Using lzma2 (xz) will save you 150 MB on a 700 MB iso versus gzip, at the expense of increasing creation time about 10x, as well as increasing memory requirements for decompression. That should be enough space to include libre. -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Wed Oct 19 16:55:30 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:55:30 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Debian Edition: ready for prime time Message-ID: <20111019165530.aa367b7aafbb3a4f2be9acf3@jasonhsu.com> In my opinion, Linux Mint 9 Isadora is THE premier Linux distro for first-time Linux users and THE distro against which all other general-purpose distros should be judged. It's user-friendly and intuitive. The software repository has well over 30,000 packages. The hardware and codec support is superior - it has out-of-the-box DVD playing capability. Linux Mint reminds me of those early Lexus commercials. If operating systems were cars, Mint would be smooth enough to handle stacked wine glasses on the hood at 145 mph and have tight tolerances that pass the ball bearing test. (But you don't need financing to use Linux Mint!) After about a year of development and release candidate, Linux Mint Debian Edition was officially released last month. The Linux Mint team has successfully replicated the Minty goodness of the traditional Ubuntu-based editions without the overhead of actually using a Ubuntu base. I'm now using LMDE with Xfce as my main distro on my home computer right now, and it's really winning me over. My next version of Swift Linux (0.2.0) will be using LMDE as the base. (If you can't beat them, join them.) Those of you who don't like the new Ubuntu really need to try LMDE. Those of you who don't like GNOME3 and are dreading the end of GNOME2 need to try the Xfce and other alternative DEs for Linux Mint. I'm amazed how well the Linux Mint team duplicates the same feel across different DEs. (I'm using Linux Mint 11 with LXDE in VirtualBox for learning Ruby on Rails.) -- Jason Hsu From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 20:20:42 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 20:20:42 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Debian Edition: ready for prime time In-Reply-To: <20111019165530.aa367b7aafbb3a4f2be9acf3@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111019165530.aa367b7aafbb3a4f2be9acf3@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4E9F776A.4040109@gmail.com> On 10/19/2011 4:55 PM, Jason Hsu cried from the depths of the abyss: > In my opinion, Linux Mint 9 Isadora is THE premier Linux distro for first-time Linux users and THE distro against which all other general-purpose distros should be judged. It's user-friendly and intuitive. The software repository has well over 30,000 packages. The hardware and codec support is superior - it has out-of-the-box DVD playing capability. Linux Mint reminds me of those early Lexus commercials. If operating systems were cars, Mint would be smooth enough to handle stacked wine glasses on the hood at 145 mph and have tight tolerances that pass the ball bearing test. (But you don't need financing to use Linux Mint!) > > After about a year of development and release candidate, Linux Mint Debian Edition was officially released last month. The Linux Mint team has successfully replicated the Minty goodness of the traditional Ubuntu-based editions without the overhead of actually using a Ubuntu base. I'm now using LMDE with Xfce as my main distro on my home computer right now, and it's really winning me over. My next version of Swift Linux (0.2.0) will be using LMDE as the base. (If you can't beat them, join them.) > > Those of you who don't like the new Ubuntu really need to try LMDE. Those of you who don't like GNOME3 and are dreading the end of GNOME2 need to try the Xfce and other alternative DEs for Linux Mint. I'm amazed how well the Linux Mint team duplicates the same feel across different DEs. (I'm using Linux Mint 11 with LXDE in VirtualBox for learning Ruby on Rails.) > Noted From scottbb1973 at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 10:30:53 2011 From: scottbb1973 at gmail.com (Scott Berry) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 10:30:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Debian Edition: ready for prime time In-Reply-To: <20111019165530.aa367b7aafbb3a4f2be9acf3@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111019165530.aa367b7aafbb3a4f2be9acf3@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4EA03EAD.6060006@gmail.com> Yes but in my case being lind you cannot do that. Acessibility is not quite there yet or I would try it. On 10/19/2011 04:55 PM, Jason Hsu wrote: > In my opinion, Linux Mint 9 Isadora is THE premier Linux distro for first-time Linux users and THE distro against which all other general-purpose distros should be judged. It's user-friendly and intuitive. The software repository has well over 30,000 packages. The hardware and codec support is superior - it has out-of-the-box DVD playing capability. Linux Mint reminds me of those early Lexus commercials. If operating systems were cars, Mint would be smooth enough to handle stacked wine glasses on the hood at 145 mph and have tight tolerances that pass the ball bearing test. (But you don't need financing to use Linux Mint!) > > After about a year of development and release candidate, Linux Mint Debian Edition was officially released last month. The Linux Mint team has successfully replicated the Minty goodness of the traditional Ubuntu-based editions without the overhead of actually using a Ubuntu base. I'm now using LMDE with Xfce as my main distro on my home computer right now, and it's really winning me over. My next version of Swift Linux (0.2.0) will be using LMDE as the base. (If you can't beat them, join them.) > > Those of you who don't like the new Ubuntu really need to try LMDE. Those of you who don't like GNOME3 and are dreading the end of GNOME2 need to try the Xfce and other alternative DEs for Linux Mint. I'm amazed how well the Linux Mint team duplicates the same feel across different DEs. (I'm using Linux Mint 11 with LXDE in VirtualBox for learning Ruby on Rails.) > -- Scott Berry E-mail: scottbb1973 at gmail.com Call me: sip:scottbb1973 at ekiga.net computer Certs: MCP and A Plus Ham Call Sign: N7ZIB Repeater.book Admin for these states: North and south Dakota, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Nebraska From eminmn at sysmatrix.net Thu Oct 20 11:22:35 2011 From: eminmn at sysmatrix.net (Ed C.) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:22:35 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux and capitalist ideals In-Reply-To: References: <20111015221202.f4f6de7ef68fd3e1dc5d4b96@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4EA04ACB.40902@sysmatrix.net> On 10/17/2011 11:19 AM, Robert Nesius wrote: > Hi Jason, > > First, let me tell you a little about a younger version of myself. Young > Rob was raised in a culturally conservative climate where "commie" was the > worst kind of slur you could sling at someone, to the point where "commie" > and "bad" were interchangeable in sentences. And REAL commies could not > fathom the superiority of our economic and political processes due to some > inherent flaw in their DNA. And Young Rob knew this because he lived in > rural Minnesota and when he turned on the TV to watch the evening news, the > news he and everyone else who was watching TV at that moment in time were > seeing - it was in fact the news from Fargo (NOT the SIN CITIES!). That > obviously meant culture and intellectual thought flowed from Fargo the way > it did from Rome at the height of another great civilization and empire. > Years later Young Rob learned of localized television markets and marveled > at his ignorance and ethnocentrism, but slept soundly at night knowing his > contempt for commies was still justified.. > > Linux and capitalistic ideals. I think Linux isn't quite the right context > for a conversation about Capitalism and choice. I think Linux is a very > useful context when you talk about distributed software engineering and > project management and the power of the GPL. But I think the concepts that > are more applicable to the ideas you're talking about are Freedom, the Gnu > Public License, and the Noosphere. > > First off, when I talk about Freedom, I'm talking about choice. Capitalism > is often conflated with the concept of freedom because you are considered > "free to make a profit". But not everyone's freedom's are being protected > in a capitalistic/"free-market" society - especially in a society where the > political parties are proxies for corporate interests who insist that > "freedom to make a profit" is "the most important freedom". > > As you noted, you have a lot of freedom and choices in the Linux world, and > that's thanks to the GPL, which is preventing people from taking choices > away from you. It was a lack of choice and freedom that inspired Stallman > to come up with the GPL in the first place. For Stallman, it was the lack > of choice regarding the software running on a printer he owned. I think the printer was actually owned by MIT (maybe a Xerox). RMS (later in this thread called RSM) was frustrated that he couldn't have access to the driver source code. > > As an aside - on a personal note, I find it ironic that one of the things I > hate the most - copyright - has done the most good for our society with > respect to protecting people's choices about contributions they make to FOSS > projects. > > Anyway - the GPL. It does world good, because it keeps people's > contributions in the public domain. Now take a step back and look at the > number of people who have contributed hours upon hours of effort to the > public domain via the GPL for no economic gain and ask yourself "Why would > they do that?" (Because they're stupid communists! HA! :) ). Well, maybe > look at this question from a historical context, because now becoming a > major contributor to a FOSS project can very easily lead to a job offer > because a lot of the big FOSS projects have corporations sitting behind them > selling services at an enterprise level. So - take away the "a very long > job interview" angle and what are you left with? Why are people motivated > to interact and contribute on these projects? > > Eric Raymond realized there was an id-friendly ego-stroke dimension to it > all as well. He coined the term "noosphere" and described some of the > motivations for developer activity on these projects from the point of view > of psychology and sociology in a paper entitled "Homestead the Noosphere". > I found it to be a very interesting read, and I think you would too if you > haven't read it yet. Especially since I think it speaks to some of your > motivations for working on Swift Linux. The word "noosphere" was coined by the French Jesuit paleontologist Teillard de Chardin and borrowed (possibly with an extended but very similar meaning) by Raymond. > > http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/homesteading/ > > Once you're done with that, I would suggest you check out "The Cathedral and > the Bazaar", which relates the FOSS development model to the Microsoftian > (among other corporations) models. > > http://catb.org/~esr/writings/homesteading/ > > Enjoy! > > -Rob > > Yes, the C and B is well worth reading but I get the impression that the author is trying to make a difference by being different. E.g. he makes a big todo about disagreeing with RMS about freeware vs. open source but the difference doesn't seem to amount to much other than stealing some of RMS's thunder. What Linux developers lack in love of filthy lucre they more than make up for in coder's vanity. M$ apps are often faulted for their feature bloat. This is a valid criticism. Added functionality for any application is doomed to be asymptotic (i.e. it gets significantly better, but more and more slowly). Since Linux is ultimately founded on the work of Ritchie, Kernighan, Thompson, Pike, et al. at Bell Labs, it can only continue to improve by remaining faithful to their philosophy of keeping things simple. Remember that back in the 80's some bosses were teaching their secretaries to use filters and pipes to accomplish everyday office tasks. Now, instead of feature bloat, the Linux community suffers from distro bloat, were everyone and his third cousin need to get their own idea of what Linux should be, with their own logo out there and only manage to further confuse potential new users. Ubuntu pretends that it has somehow outgrown the name of Linux just because its skin has a little more of a Windows look and feel. Meanwhile, basics things like Xmodmap are being tromped on by a whole slew of half-implemented "better ideas." My desktop is more configurable with win2000, Keytweak, w32 Emacs than with anything I've tried from Debian, Redhat, or Ubuntu. Get the basics working right first and you can worry about whether you're the next RMS or Torvalds later. Ed From tompoe at meltel.net Fri Oct 21 19:19:57 2011 From: tompoe at meltel.net (tom) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:19:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent Message-ID: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> OccupyMN is set up, as you know, at People's Park (formerly government plaza). Their media team needs talented volunteers to raise the quality of livestream broadcasts. The 99% movement will thank you with lots of hugs, kisses, a media budget for equipment, and a worldwide audience (in case you're looking for consulting work). Check out OccupyMN.org and/or visit the media team at People's Plaza. They're there 24x7. Tom From tonyyarusso at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 19:50:31 2011 From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 19:50:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> Message-ID: Have they figured out what they actually stand for and want to accomplish yet? Last time I checked in I couldn't even tell whether I agreed with the protesters or not because they didn't have a platform... From canito at dalan.us Fri Oct 21 20:21:13 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:21:13 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> Message-ID: <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> Quoting Tony Yarusso : > Have they figured out what they actually stand for and want to > accomplish yet? Last time I checked in I couldn't even tell whether I > agreed with the protesters or not because they didn't have a > platform... > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > Sounds like you don't get out much! Maybe you should get out there and see for your self, rather then letting the TV tell you what to think. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From mark.katerberg at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 20:11:28 2011 From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:11:28 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: Why are there a million political posts on my linux mailing lists? :( inb4 gnu/linux On Oct 21, 2011 8:08 PM, "David Alanis" wrote: > Quoting Tony Yarusso : > > Have they figured out what they actually stand for and want to >> accomplish yet? Last time I checked in I couldn't even tell whether I >> agreed with the protesters or not because they didn't have a >> platform... >> ______________________________**_________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> > Sounds like you don't get out much! Maybe you should get out there and see > for your self, rather then letting the TV tell you what to think. > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ______________________________**_________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug at freakzilla.com Fri Oct 21 20:12:31 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:12:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Alanis wrote: > Sounds like you don't get out much! Maybe you should get out there and see > for your self, rather then letting the TV tell you what to think. I was out there yesterday. There were signs against banks, against forclosures, against fracking, against non-organic farming, against war, against pharmaceutical companies, against the government, and those are just the ones I remember off the top of my head. There is absolutely no coherent message here. -Yaron -- From canito at dalan.us Fri Oct 21 20:26:38 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 20:26:38 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <20111021202638.qrr8jml02jn28c8w@mail.dalan.us> Quoting Mark Katerberg : > Why are there a million political posts on my linux mailing lists? :( inb4 > gnu/linux > On Oct 21, 2011 8:08 PM, "David Alanis" wrote: > >> Quoting Tony Yarusso : >> >> Have they figured out what they actually stand for and want to >>> accomplish yet? Last time I checked in I couldn't even tell whether I >>> agreed with the protesters or not because they didn't have a >>> platform... >>> ______________________________**_________________ >>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>> >>> >> Sounds like you don't get out much! Maybe you should get out there and see >> for your self, rather then letting the TV tell you what to think. >> >> ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- >> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. >> >> ______________________________**_________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > Asking for technical assistance is political, since when? ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From tompoe at meltel.net Fri Oct 21 21:48:52 2011 From: tompoe at meltel.net (tom) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:48:52 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> Coherent message is corporate media talk. Are you interested in having a role in a society of the 99%? Or, do you want to continue the status quo with the 1% controlling your society? Beyond that, the media team needs talent. If you have talent, head down and help change our society. Tom On Fri, 2011-10-21 at 20:12 -0500, Yaron wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Alanis wrote: > > > Sounds like you don't get out much! Maybe you should get out there and see > > for your self, rather then letting the TV tell you what to think. > > I was out there yesterday. There were signs against banks, against > forclosures, against fracking, against non-organic farming, against war, > against pharmaceutical companies, against the government, and those are > just the ones I remember off the top of my head. > > There is absolutely no coherent message here. > > > > > -Yaron > > -- > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From tclug at freakzilla.com Fri Oct 21 22:36:00 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 22:36:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, tom wrote: > Coherent message is corporate media talk. Wow. Do I look like a corporation? No? How about a media outlet? Still no? Good. I'm an individual. The Occupy* Movement does want my support in their cause, and yet I'm not allowed to ask what the heck this cause is? Now I'm pretty much OK with there being some social and economic change in this country, but those kind of responses are NOT going to lead more people to your cause. -Yaron -- From sapiensantiquus at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 23:21:54 2011 From: sapiensantiquus at gmail.com (Andrew Johnson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:21:54 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> Message-ID: Absolutely agree, Yaron. Andrew On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:36 PM, Yaron wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, tom wrote: > > Coherent message is corporate media talk. >> > > Wow. > > Do I look like a corporation? No? How about a media outlet? Still no? Good. > > I'm an individual. The Occupy* Movement does want my support in their > cause, and yet I'm not allowed to ask what the heck this cause is? > > > Now I'm pretty much OK with there being some social and economic change in > this country, but those kind of responses are NOT going to lead more people > to your cause. > > > > > -Yaron > > -- > ______________________________**_________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From florin at iucha.net Fri Oct 21 23:31:33 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:31:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> Message-ID: <20111022043132.GC3778@styx.iucha.org> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 10:36:00PM -0500, Yaron wrote: >> Coherent message is corporate media talk. > > Wow. > > Do I look like a corporation? No? How about a media outlet? Still no? > Good. > > I'm an individual. The Occupy* Movement does want my support in their > cause, and yet I'm not allowed to ask what the heck this cause is? Yaron, Tom's response was curt but well-intended. Surely you can ask what their cause is and even try to influence it. You just can't expect a large number of people to agree on what N topics are "the most important thing to focus on right now" for any reasonable N (where I define reasonable as "number of opinions << number of people expressing them"). Heck, you can't get 435 + 100 + 1 elected officials to agree on a couple of things at a time... Cheers, florin -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From tclug at freakzilla.com Fri Oct 21 23:34:43 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:34:43 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <20111022043132.GC3778@styx.iucha.org> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <20111022043132.GC3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Florin Iucha wrote: > Tom's response was curt but well-intended. Surely you can ask what > their cause is and even try to influence it. He was asked. That's when he called us all corporate media outlets. -Yaron -- From florin at iucha.net Sat Oct 22 00:05:47 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 00:05:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <20111022043132.GC3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: <20111022050547.GD3778@styx.iucha.org> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:34:43PM -0500, Yaron wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Florin Iucha wrote: > >> Tom's response was curt but well-intended. Surely you can ask what >> their cause is and even try to influence it. > > He was asked. That's when he called us all corporate media outlets. Yaron, Please read the thread again. You made the accurate observation that "There is absolutely no coherent message here." Tom also made the correct comment that "Coherent message is corporate media talk." Corporations need coherent messages because they want to sell you stuff and trying to sell you too many things at once will confuse you (see 'The Paradox of Choice' [1]). Obviously different corporations will try to sell you different products, so you cannot say that 'the market has a coherent message for you'. From my careful reading of the thread I can see two things: * You did not ask anybody here 'what is the occupy* message'. * Nobody called nobody corporation or a media outlet ([2]). Cheers, florin 1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Paradox_of_Choice:_Why_More_Is_Less 2: http://publicrelationsblogger.com/2006/08/what-is-media-outlet-definition-and.html -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 13:28:06 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:28:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> Message-ID: <4EA30B36.8050000@gmail.com> On 10/21/2011 9:48 PM, tom cried from the depths of the abyss: > Coherent message is corporate media talk. > > Are you interested in having a role in a society of the 99%? Or, do you > want to continue the status quo with the 1% controlling your society? > Noted. Do we really want a bunch of unemployable, bad hygiene, spoiled brats who couldn't really run a Dairy Queen drive through window running the country though? Just saying.. > Beyond that, the media team needs talent. If you have talent, head down > and help change our society. > Tom > From bradyh at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 13:49:21 2011 From: bradyh at gmail.com (Brady Hegberg) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:49:21 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <4EA30B36.8050000@gmail.com> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <4EA30B36.8050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Oct 22, 2011, at 1:28 PM, "Mr. B-o-B" wrote: > On 10/21/2011 9:48 PM, tom cried from the depths of the abyss: >> Coherent message is corporate media talk. >> >> Are you interested in having a role in a society of the 99%? Or, do you >> want to continue the status quo with the 1% controlling your society? >> > > Noted. Do we really want a bunch of unemployable, bad hygiene, spoiled brats who couldn't really run a Dairy Queen drive through window running the country though? > > Just saying.. That would be you? Just curious...you seem like that kind of person. >> Beyond that, the media team needs talent. If you have talent, head down >> and help change our society. >> Tom >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From canito at dalan.us Sat Oct 22 14:17:47 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 14:17:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <4EA30B36.8050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111022141747.hc3kiqp9w634co4s@mail.dalan.us> Quoting Brady Hegberg : > > On Oct 22, 2011, at 1:28 PM, "Mr. B-o-B" wrote: > >> On 10/21/2011 9:48 PM, tom cried from the depths of the abyss: >>> Coherent message is corporate media talk. >>> >>> Are you interested in having a role in a society of the 99%? Or, do you >>> want to continue the status quo with the 1% controlling your society? >>> >> >> Noted. Do we really want a bunch of unemployable, bad hygiene, >> spoiled brats who couldn't really run a Dairy Queen drive through >> window running the country though? >> >> Just saying.. > > That would be you? Just curious...you seem like that kind of person. > >>> Beyond that, the media team needs talent. If you have talent, head down >>> and help change our society. >>> Tom >>> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > This is probably as old as the Internet, but I just recently viewed it for the first time. Don't feed the trolls. http://www.collegehumor.com/video/5817726/internet-bridge-troll ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 19:29:11 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:29:11 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Yaron wrote: > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, David Alanis wrote: > >> Sounds like you don't get out much! Maybe you should get out there and >> see for your self, rather then letting the TV tell you what to think. > > I was out there yesterday. There were signs against banks, against > forclosures, against fracking, against non-organic farming, against war, > against pharmaceutical companies, against the government, and those are > just the ones I remember off the top of my head. > > There is absolutely no coherent message here. Anyone can go almost anywhere and protest. The "Occupy" groups don't have a top-down governance with a central leadership directing their actions. A common criticism, say from NY Times editorialists, was that the Occupy Wall Street (OWS) people would do better to have some demands. The OWS people disagreed because a demands that isn't unanimously endorsed could turn off some people. They were striving for unity even though I guess you could call it "incoherent unity." In early October, OWS participants voted on and approved the first official ?Declaration of the Occupation of New York City?: http://www.care2.com/causes/occupy-wall-street-issues-first-official-declaration.html So that's something. They also are working on a list of demands: http://occupywallst.org/forum/proposed-list-of-demands-please-help-editadd-so-th/ Their central concern is very obvious, though: They see Wall Street investment banks and other sorts of super-powered corporate types ("the 1%") as using their money and power to influence the government for their personal gain and against the interests of the average person ("the 99%") causing economic calamity around the world, the housing bubble, massive numbers of foreclosures, high unemployment and all sorts of threats to government services for the needy. During this, the richest of the rich have consistently gotten a lot richer. The coverage of all of this by the mainstream media has been a joke. The White House and Congress are barely willing to lift a finger to go after the people who caused these things to happen, partly because they've long been complicit in it. Someone had to stand up and say something. The talking heads and pundits came up with a million ways to ignore them and dismiss them (e.g., they are young, they are hippies, they play drums, the probably smell bad, they don't have demands), but in the end the OWS came out on top and spread their message around the country and around the world. They want an end to corruption, an honest news media and a government that represents the interests of the people. All I can say is that the Occupy protesters obviously are right and we should be on their side, if we have any sense at all (and make less than $1 million per year). Economics Nobelist Paul Krugman weighs in: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/10/opinion/panic-of-the-plutocrats.html http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/opinion/krugman-wall-street-loses-its-immunity.html Mike From nesius at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 20:46:17 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:46:17 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <20111022050547.GD3778@styx.iucha.org> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <20111022043132.GC3778@styx.iucha.org> <20111022050547.GD3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 12:05 AM, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 11:34:43PM -0500, Yaron wrote: > > On Fri, 21 Oct 2011, Florin Iucha wrote: > > > >> Tom's response was curt but well-intended. Surely you can ask what > >> their cause is and even try to influence it. > > > > He was asked. That's when he called us all corporate media outlets. > > Yaron, > > Please read the thread again. You made the accurate observation that > "There is absolutely no coherent message here." Tom also made the > correct comment that "Coherent message is corporate media talk." > > Corporations need coherent messages because they want to sell you > stuff and trying to sell you too many things at once will confuse you > (see 'The Paradox of Choice' [1]). Obviously different corporations > will try to sell you different products, so you cannot say that 'the > market has a coherent message for you'. > > Hi Yaron, I think you misunderstood what Tom was saying. I'm pretty sure he was not implying you're a corporate media outlet. But before I speculate on what he was trying to say, I'll ask you a question... When did you first realize there was a lack of a coherent message with the Occupy* movement? When did you first think to yourself "they have a problem with coherency of message"? I'd guess that thought crossed your mind shortly after reading a critique of the Occupy movement, or seeing a critique on-air. The mass media and most news outlets - which are owned by for-profit corporate entities who make money selling advertisements for the 1% - have been trying very hard to discredit the Occupy movement without legitimizing it. When it finally became something that couldn't be ignored the message was "look here at this large collection of folks who are extremely frustrated about A LOT of things in our society but who can't actually bring an on-topic message to the table." I think that "lack of focus" is actually the message. People are upset about a lot of things. The corruption and disempowerment of "the 99%" (I hesitate to use that name - but it captures the essence of what these people have in common) is so pervasive and happens across so many social and cultural issues that I fail to see how the message could be focused to something more than "we want sweeping reforms and an end to the current system". To the point someone made earlier in this thread about the diverse number of signs they saw at a protest, I thought they all had a theme - they were all facets of the same gem - systemic corruption in our political and public-policy making processes. Anyway, I don't think Tom was calling you a corporate media outlet. Rather, he was saying the idea that the lack of a coherent message is a discrediting problem with the Occupy* movement is a critique manufactured by corporate media outlets. -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug at freakzilla.com Sat Oct 22 21:14:50 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 21:14:50 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <20111022043132.GC3778@styx.iucha.org> <20111022050547.GD3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: Ok guys, this is devolving into a name-calling flame-war, and nobody wants that. I would like to clarify a few things, though: 1) I am not saying that the Occupy* Movement should not be out protesting. Even if I did, whether or not they should be doing this has 0% to do with my opinion. This is a free country and peoples' right to free speech is pretty much paramount. 2) I'm not saying thye need to have a coherent message. However, I pointed out the lack of coherent message, and the fact that I moticed the MULTITUDES of messages because someone DID actually ask Tom what the message was. This someone was not me. I was just jumping in with... 3) My FIRST-HAND OBSERVATION. I'm sorry, people, but I've been... accused of learning about all this from The Media. Yes, I heard about the Occupy* from media outlets (NPR, if you really want to know). I have not ever read an editorial about them. I don't watch TV news, I don't read newspapers, and if I do google up some news I red the FACTS. Yes, I did hear that there was no clear voice in the Occupy* movement, and I had some assumptions as to the main message, so you know what I did? I WENT DOWN THERE. Yup. I had a week off work, so I got up, drove downtown, located the unilateraly-renamed People's Plaza and LOOKED FOR MYSELF. In fact, I joined in. I marched around U.S. Bank Plaza, I TALKED to the other protestors, I gathered stickers and pamphlets (and READ them) and I took looooots and lots of pictures. Basically, I did the research. Now I'm not a very good Marketing Target. I don't ever watch commercials on TV (yay DVR), I don't really listen to commercial radio, and I have Adblock Plus. So I don't really know what media's 'coherent messages' is but it's kinda skipping over me. I used that term because it makes sense to ME, not because anyone has FED it to me. I've mentioned before, I do think we can use some social and economic change in this country. But if you're going to have a movement to achieve thic change, it really should have some goals. And I'll just point out ne thing. On Thursday, OccupyMN was (according to their twitter feed/facebook page (two sites I do not frequent but were a good source to find out the group's activity)) were gathering at U.S. Bank Plasa to protest forclosures. Yet a large percentage of the placards and signs people carried contained anti-war messages. I just think that if you're outside a bank, protesting forclosures, the vast majority of your signs should be on-topic. I would like to hope that this could be taken as constructive critisism. Again, I am actually very happy that people are finally getting up and making some noise. This country greatly needs to kick itself in the butt. People here are fairly apathetic and I am very happy to see them finally paying attention. We kinda dug ourself into this situation, so we need to work hard to dig outselves out. But that's a LOT harder to do when instead of bringing shovels, people bring everything from rakes to magazines to kitchen sinks. I would recommend that we drop this subject from the list at this point. I am more than happy to talk/discuss/debate the topic with anyone who is interested in doing this in a non-flame manner, and please feel free to email me directly if you like, but I think the list can do without it. And just to be on the safe side: Hitler. -Yaron -- From tompoe at meltel.net Sat Oct 22 22:34:40 2011 From: tompoe at meltel.net (tom) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:34:40 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] laptops and wifi cards question Message-ID: <1319340880.13617.5.camel@taichi> I am still living in the desktop age, so be patient. Those who own laptops might help me, please. What options are available for access to the Internet? Verizon data cards/prepaid cards, right? Are there different levels of quality, like one card provides higher broadband? Any recommendations as to what cards to purchase? Also, I need to identify a public access station that I can walk through the door, and apply to check out high quality video equipment. Last request. Who knows how to set up a virtual world (Open Source)? Thanks, Tom From tclug at freakzilla.com Sat Oct 22 22:38:36 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 22:38:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] laptops and wifi cards question In-Reply-To: <1319340880.13617.5.camel@taichi> References: <1319340880.13617.5.camel@taichi> Message-ID: I can't answer the second two, but a lot of Android phones can USB-tether or even create a WiFi hotspot. I can do it with my N1 with Cyanogenmod installed, and then use my laptop to go online from that. If you're in an area with decent reception (i.e., downtown Minneapolis) you can get pretty decent bandwidth. I hear Sprint and Verizon somehow detect and nuke that unless you pay them, but I've had no problems at all doing this with t-mobie. As a point of clarification, though, you're not really looking for WiFi - I'm fairly sure any laptop you get today will have that built-in. A data card from Verizon/AT&T/T-Mobie/whoever will actually be using their cellular network, not WiFi. On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, tom wrote: > I am still living in the desktop age, so be patient. Those who own > laptops might help me, please. > > What options are available for access to the Internet? Verizon data > cards/prepaid cards, right? Are there different levels of quality, like > one card provides higher broadband? Any recommendations as to what > cards to purchase? > > Also, I need to identify a public access station that I can walk through > the door, and apply to check out high quality video equipment. > > Last request. Who knows how to set up a virtual world (Open Source)? > Thanks, Tom > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -Yaron -- From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 23:33:27 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:33:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <20111022043132.GC3778@styx.iucha.org> <20111022050547.GD3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Yaron wrote: > Ok guys, this is devolving into a name-calling flame-war, and nobody > wants that. Who was flaming and name-calling? I didn't see that. This is definitely not flaming or name-calling (below). It's just an explanation of a position... > 3) My FIRST-HAND OBSERVATION. I'm sorry, people, but I've been... > accused of learning about all this from The Media. Yes, I heard about > the Occupy* from media outlets (NPR, if you really want to know). I have > not ever read an editorial about them. I don't watch TV news, I don't > read newspapers, and if I do google up some news I red the FACTS. > > Yes, I did hear that there was no clear voice in the Occupy* movement, > and I had some assumptions as to the main message, so you know what I > did? I WENT DOWN THERE. I thought it was put to you in the form of a question, but let's say that you really were "accused" -- you now say that you were guilty as charged. That isn't much of a crime, but the point is really that your opinions are being manipulated, even by NPR. NPR gets support from a lot of rich benefactors and from the government. When they fired Juan Williams for his supposedly-political statements, they took on a major attack from conservative politicians that included threats to their funding. Now they have cut a show just because the host has been involved in political protests, but it isn't a political show, it's an opera show: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-20124068/npr-dumps-opera-show-over-dc-protest/ NPR managed to avoid doing a single story on Occupy Wall Street for the first nine days of the protest. They are under pressure to prove to very biased people that they are "unbiased." That said, I think NPR and PBS are two of the best sources of news you can find. Every source is being influenced in many ways, so it is best so seek multiple sources, but that takes too much time. It's a hard problem. > Yup. I had a week off work, so I got up, drove downtown, located the > unilateraly-renamed People's Plaza and LOOKED FOR MYSELF. In fact, I > joined in. I marched around U.S. Bank Plaza, I TALKED to the other > protestors, I gathered stickers and pamphlets (and READ them) and I took > looooots and lots of pictures. > > Basically, I did the research. I think it is great that you went down to see for yourself. I should do that, too, but I haven't (just had a baby born 4 weeks ago today). In research we have a systematic plan for collecting data so that we don't let our prior attitudes influence our observations. I don't think you meant that you were doing research at that level. > Now I'm not a very good Marketing Target. I don't ever watch commercials > on TV (yay DVR), I don't really listen to commercial radio, and I have > Adblock Plus. So I don't really know what media's 'coherent messages' is > but it's kinda skipping over me. I used that term because it makes sense > to ME, not because anyone has FED it to me. But the idea that they were not coherent ("had no clear voice") had been fed to you by NPR, or so you said. You are less affected by corporate media than maybe 90% of people, or more, but they still get their messages to you. > I've mentioned before, I do think we can use some social and economic > change in this country. But if you're going to have a movement to > achieve thic change, it really should have some goals. As I said, they are working on that, but they were trying to gain interest and larger numbers of people before narrowing their interests to a list of demands, some of which might turn off some people. So, I'm saying you might be wrong. I would have thought the same as you, but the "incoherent" thing they've been doing is working. > And I'll just point out ne thing. On Thursday, OccupyMN was (according > to their twitter feed/facebook page (two sites I do not frequent but > were a good source to find out the group's activity)) were gathering at > U.S. Bank Plasa to protest forclosures. > > Yet a large percentage of the placards and signs people carried > contained anti-war messages. > > I just think that if you're outside a bank, protesting forclosures, the > vast majority of your signs should be on-topic. Is that still true if imposing some restrictions on acceptability of signs causes some people to go home? > I would like to hope that this could be taken as constructive critisism. > Again, I am actually very happy that people are finally getting up and > making some noise. This country greatly needs to kick itself in the > butt. People here are fairly apathetic and I am very happy to see them > finally paying attention. We kinda dug ourself into this situation, so > we need to work hard to dig outselves out. But that's a LOT harder to do > when instead of bringing shovels, people bring everything from rakes to > magazines to kitchen sinks. The question is, do you want people to show up with kitchen sinks, or do you want them to stay home? Or at least that is they way they were thinking about it. > I would recommend that we drop this subject from the list at this point. > I am more than happy to talk/discuss/debate the topic with anyone who is > interested in doing this in a non-flame manner, and please feel free to > email me directly if you like, but I think the list can do without it. OK. (At this point.) Mike From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 23:38:20 2011 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:38:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent Message-ID: Yaron: > And I'll just point out ne thing. On Thursday, OccupyMN was (according to > their twitter feed/facebook page (two sites I do not frequent but were a > good source to find out the group's activity)) were gathering at U.S. Bank > Plasa to protest forclosures. I'd like to encourage people to get out of debt and stay out of it. I've not had a debit or credit card for over 8 years and haven't missed them. I lost my wallet last year and thankfully it was found and returned to me. While it was missing I was hardly preturbed. In part that was because I didn't have to call a bunch of banks and tell them I lost my cards. If you like sleeping with Rattle Snakes keep doing business with Citi and others like them. -- Brian Wood Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled *the* law." Romans 13:8 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 23:44:24 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:44:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Brian Wood wrote: > I'd like to encourage people to get out of debt and stay out of it. I've > not had a debit or credit card for over 8 years and haven't missed them. > I lost my wallet last year and thankfully it was found and returned to > me. While it was missing I was hardly preturbed. In part that was > because I didn't have to call a bunch of banks and tell them I lost my > cards. If you like sleeping with Rattle Snakes keep doing business with > Citi and others like them. I have been avoiding using credit cards lately. I carry more cash and I use it for my purchases around town. It helps the local businesses. Mike From j at packetgod.com Sat Oct 22 23:52:23 2011 From: j at packetgod.com (J Cruit) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 23:52:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been doing my best to avoid reading this topic and instead have been concentrating on trying to like the new Unity interface. And nope, even in 11.10 I still hate it. I went back to fluxbox and have been having fun learning it over again, it is very pretty and minamilistic. I'm also going to take the advice of this list and try out the mint and see how it suits me. Oh and if it sounds like I'm trying to change the topic well you are dead on. If you guys want to keep ranting on about non linux stuff I'll suggest some new topics: I <3 abortions and drowning kittens. Discuss (somewhere else please). If you want to rant about linux stuff then BSD sucks, VI rules forever, and I just top posted this (in your face!) Flame on! --j On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Brian Wood wrote: > >> I'd like to encourage people to get out of debt and stay out of it. I've >> not had a debit or credit card for over 8 years and haven't missed them. I >> lost my wallet last year and thankfully it was found and returned to me. >> ?While it was missing I was hardly preturbed. ?In part that was because I >> didn't have to call a bunch of banks and tell them I lost my cards. ?If you >> like sleeping with Rattle Snakes keep doing business with Citi and others >> like them. > > > I have been avoiding using credit cards lately. ?I carry more cash and I use > it for my purchases around town. ?It helps the local businesses. > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From canito at dalan.us Sun Oct 23 01:15:57 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 01:15:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111023011557.wklmxsk6rrc4k40c@mail.dalan.us> Quoting J Cruit : > I've been doing my best to avoid reading this topic and instead have > been concentrating on trying to like the new Unity interface. And > nope, even in 11.10 I still hate it. I went back to fluxbox and have > been having fun learning it over again, it is very pretty and > minamilistic. I'm also going to take the advice of this list and try > out the mint and see how it suits me. > > Oh and if it sounds like I'm trying to change the topic well you are > dead on. If you guys want to keep ranting on about non linux stuff > I'll suggest some new topics: I <3 abortions and drowning kittens. > Discuss (somewhere else please). > > If you want to rant about linux stuff then BSD sucks, VI rules > forever, and I just top posted this (in your face!) Flame on! > > --j > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Mike Miller wrote: >> On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Brian Wood wrote: >> >>> I'd like to encourage people to get out of debt and stay out of it. I've >>> not had a debit or credit card for over 8 years and haven't missed them. I >>> lost my wallet last year and thankfully it was found and returned to me. >>> ?While it was missing I was hardly preturbed. ?In part that was because I >>> didn't have to call a bunch of banks and tell them I lost my cards. ?If you >>> like sleeping with Rattle Snakes keep doing business with Citi and others >>> like them. >> >> >> I have been avoiding using credit cards lately. ?I carry more cash and I use >> it for my purchases around town. ?It helps the local businesses. >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > I'm actually thankful for this thread since it lead me to learn about Eben Moglen, which I find odd that no known has ever mentioned him on this list (at least not that I remember?) yet RMS does not go unmentioned. If anyone here has watched the video Freedom in the cloud - to me it's really encouraging to hear such a profound man speak up for civil liberties and get to learn about his life's long work to achieve this through free software. What I take away from watching these videos is partly, if not entirely, the reason we have free software today is due to the *activism* (for civil liberties) and persistence by RMS, Eben Moglen, Phil Zimmermann (the list goes on...) and not capitalism as some like to think. Eben Moglen - Freedom in The Cloud http://youtu.be/QOEMv0S8AcA Eben Moglen: How I discovered Free Software and met RMS http://youtu.be/uKxzK9xtSXM Philip Zimmermann on PGP http://youtu.be/Ka7BqjmaWJA ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From 13.finn at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 08:50:44 2011 From: 13.finn at gmail.com (Patrick "Finn" Robins) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 08:50:44 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] laptops and wifi cards question In-Reply-To: <1319340880.13617.5.camel@taichi> References: <1319340880.13617.5.camel@taichi> Message-ID: What options are available for access to the Internet? Verizon data > cards/prepaid cards, right? Are there different levels of quality, like > one card provides higher broadband? Any recommendations as to what > cards to purchase? > I also use my Android phone and an app called OpenGarden. OpenGarden allows me to use my phone as a wifi hotspot. The equipment and services for cellular data from most vendors are expensive, too expensive for me on top of my phone plan anyway. > > Also, I need to identify a public access station that I can walk through > the door, and apply to check out high quality video equipment. > > Last request. Who knows how to set up a virtual world (Open Source)? > Thanks, Tom > St Paul College has been using Open Wonderland for virtual class rooms and meetings. Open source and written in Java and licensed under the GPL V2 with Classpath Exception. It works pretty well other than some audio chat hardware issues recently. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Patrick "Finn" Robins Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bradyh at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 10:19:48 2011 From: bradyh at gmail.com (Brady Hegberg) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:19:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D7FC8B5-8343-4F3E-A762-979EF2FCA58B@gmail.com> Ok, you people who bottom post are at least as annoying as Unity. There's some huge long thread that I've already read multiple times but I have to look through it again for the 20th time to find your new text? How is that anything but inconvenient and annoying? And Unity? How is it convenient to have to google for an app every time I want to run it? (Aside from the ones I add to the sidebar, that is.) Mini-rant completed. :-) On Oct 22, 2011, at 11:52 PM, J Cruit wrote: > I've been doing my best to avoid reading this topic and instead have > been concentrating on trying to like the new Unity interface. And > nope, even in 11.10 I still hate it. I went back to fluxbox and have > been having fun learning it over again, it is very pretty and > minamilistic. I'm also going to take the advice of this list and try > out the mint and see how it suits me. > > Oh and if it sounds like I'm trying to change the topic well you are > dead on. If you guys want to keep ranting on about non linux stuff > I'll suggest some new topics: I <3 abortions and drowning kittens. > Discuss (somewhere else please). > > If you want to rant about linux stuff then BSD sucks, VI rules > forever, and I just top posted this (in your face!) Flame on! > > --j > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Mike Miller wrote: >> On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Brian Wood wrote: >> >>> I'd like to encourage people to get out of debt and stay out of it. I've >>> not had a debit or credit card for over 8 years and haven't missed them. I >>> lost my wallet last year and thankfully it was found and returned to me. >>> While it was missing I was hardly preturbed. In part that was because I >>> didn't have to call a bunch of banks and tell them I lost my cards. If you >>> like sleeping with Rattle Snakes keep doing business with Citi and others >>> like them. >> >> >> I have been avoiding using credit cards lately. I carry more cash and I use >> it for my purchases around town. It helps the local businesses. >> >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From 13.finn at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 11:03:05 2011 From: 13.finn at gmail.com (Patrick "Finn" Robins) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 11:03:05 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <7D7FC8B5-8343-4F3E-A762-979EF2FCA58B@gmail.com> References: <7D7FC8B5-8343-4F3E-A762-979EF2FCA58B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:19, Brady Hegberg wrote: > Ok, you people who bottom post are at least as annoying as Unity. There's > some huge long thread that I've already read multiple times but I have to > look through it again for the 20th time to find your new text? How is that > anything but inconvenient and annoying? > > is your friend, so are mailreaders that fold the indented sections of the replied to emails in the threads. The mail client you use can make a huge difference to your experience with top-post vs bottom-post styles. Personally I intersperse my responses to a post next to the statement/question I am addressing, most of the time. > And Unity? How is it convenient to have to google for an app every time I > want to run it? (Aside from the ones I add to the sidebar, that is.) > > I have no opinion here I don't use Gnome and nothing I have heard or seen about Unity has encouraged me to try again. Mini-rant completed. :-) > +1, for rants ;-) > > On Oct 22, 2011, at 11:52 PM, J Cruit wrote: > > > I've been doing my best to avoid reading this topic and instead have > > been concentrating on trying to like the new Unity interface. And > > nope, even in 11.10 I still hate it. I went back to fluxbox and have > > been having fun learning it over again, it is very pretty and > > minamilistic. I'm also going to take the advice of this list and try > > out the mint and see how it suits me. > > > > Oh and if it sounds like I'm trying to change the topic well you are > > dead on. If you guys want to keep ranting on about non linux stuff > > I'll suggest some new topics: I <3 abortions and drowning kittens. > > Discuss (somewhere else please). > > > > If you want to rant about linux stuff then BSD sucks, VI rules > > forever, and I just top posted this (in your face!) Flame on! > > > > --j > > > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Mike Miller > wrote: > >> On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, Brian Wood wrote: > >> > >>> I'd like to encourage people to get out of debt and stay out of it. > I've > >>> not had a debit or credit card for over 8 years and haven't missed > them. I > >>> lost my wallet last year and thankfully it was found and returned to > me. > >>> While it was missing I was hardly preturbed. In part that was because > I > >>> didn't have to call a bunch of banks and tell them I lost my cards. If > you > >>> like sleeping with Rattle Snakes keep doing business with Citi and > others > >>> like them. > >> > >> > >> I have been avoiding using credit cards lately. I carry more cash and I > use > >> it for my purchases around town. It helps the local businesses. > >> > >> Mike > >> _______________________________________________ > >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org > >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -- Patrick "Finn" Robins Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind. - Dr. Seuss -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Sun Oct 23 12:00:47 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:00:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords Message-ID: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for everything, and writing down passwords. What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple passwords for all of the various accounts you have? Instead of using a small number of passwords, I really need to have one unique password for each login and use a program that stores and encrypts each one. What's your favorite program for implementing this? -- Jason Hsu From canito at dalan.us Sun Oct 23 12:18:25 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:18:25 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> Quoting Jason Hsu : > I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using > passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for > everything, and writing down passwords. > > What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple > passwords for all of the various accounts you have? Instead of > using a small number of passwords, I really need to have one unique > password for each login and use a program that stores and encrypts > each one. What's your favorite program for implementing this? > > -- > Jason Hsu > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > KeePass or KeePassX for Linux and OSx. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From mark.katerberg at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 12:17:37 2011 From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:17:37 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: +1 to keepass. I use it on a variety of OSes and store the keepass file in Dropbox so it's shared everywhere. The fact that it is client side encrypted means this is secure as well. Lastpass is also a good option I've heard, but as it's closed source and there are equivilent options in free software, I haven't tried it. On Oct 23, 2011 12:05 PM, "David Alanis" wrote: > Quoting Jason Hsu : > > I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using >> passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for everything, >> and writing down passwords. >> >> What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple passwords for >> all of the various accounts you have? Instead of using a small number of >> passwords, I really need to have one unique password for each login and use >> a program that stores and encrypts each one. What's your favorite program >> for implementing this? >> >> -- >> Jason Hsu >> ______________________________**_________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> > > KeePass or KeePassX for Linux and OSx. > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ______________________________**_________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blawrence at qwest.net Sun Oct 23 12:14:06 2011 From: blawrence at qwest.net (Brian Lawrence) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:14:06 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <2427A1FEAFB441E5A95366A76164633E@dcm.int> +1 -----Original Message----- From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of David Alanis Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 12:18 PM To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords Quoting Jason Hsu : > I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using > passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for > everything, and writing down passwords. > > What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple > passwords for all of the various accounts you have? Instead of > using a small number of passwords, I really need to have one unique > password for each login and use a program that stores and encrypts > each one. What's your favorite program for implementing this? > > -- > Jason Hsu > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > KeePass or KeePassX for Linux and OSx. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 18:38:17 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:38:17 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <4EA30B36.8050000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA4A569.7030900@gmail.com> On 10/22/2011 1:49 PM, Brady Hegberg cried from the depths of the abyss: > > > That would be you? Just curious...you seem like that kind of person. > You don't know a god damned thing about me & I couldn't care less what you think. Now bugger off with this off topic bullshit. From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 19:01:07 2011 From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 19:01:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> Message-ID: <4EA4AAC3.40507@gmail.com> On 10/21/2011 9:48 PM, tom wrote: > Coherent message is corporate media talk. > > Are you interested in having a role in a society of the 99%? Or, do you > want to continue the status quo with the 1% controlling your society? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvnoe1y1UNU The relevant bit starts at about 7:50. From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:08:25 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:08:25 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, J Cruit wrote: > I've been doing my best to avoid reading this topic and instead have > been concentrating on trying to like the new Unity interface. And nope, > even in 11.10 I still hate it. Me too. > Oh and if it sounds like I'm trying to change the topic well you are > dead on. But your plan can't work. People who didn't want to read it would delete messages with occupymn in the subject, but now they'll also be missing your messages about the Unity interface. So I don't see how that accomplished anything. Wouldn't it work better to just start a new thread to give people something else to write about? Mike From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 19:06:51 2011 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Mr. B-o-B) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 19:06:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: <4EA4AAC3.40507@gmail.com> References: <1319242797.10078.3.camel@taichi> <20111021202113.x4y5jaupye4g08gg@mail.dalan.us> <1319251732.10379.2.camel@taichi> <4EA4AAC3.40507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EA4AC1B.50109@gmail.com> On 10/23/2011 7:01 PM, Andrew Berg cried from the depths of the abyss: > On 10/21/2011 9:48 PM, tom wrote: >> Coherent message is corporate media talk. >> >> Are you interested in having a role in a society of the 99%? Or, do you >> want to continue the status quo with the 1% controlling your society? > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvnoe1y1UNU > > The relevant bit starts at about 7:50. Here is more: http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/301973_10150342077232408_567347407_8537672_1095213530_n.jpg From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:17:10 2011 From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:17:10 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <2427A1FEAFB441E5A95366A76164633E@dcm.int> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> <2427A1FEAFB441E5A95366A76164633E@dcm.int> Message-ID: Another +1. I've used Keepass in Windows, Linux, and OS X, stored on a thumb drive for several years. Haven't had any issues yet. -- Jeremy MountainJohnson Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 12:14 PM, Brian Lawrence wrote: > +1 > > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of David Alanis > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 12:18 PM > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords > > Quoting Jason Hsu : > > > I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using > > passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for > > everything, and writing down passwords. > > > > What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple > > passwords for all of the various accounts you have? Instead of > > using a small number of passwords, I really need to have one unique > > password for each login and use a program that stores and encrypts > > each one. What's your favorite program for implementing this? > > > > -- > > Jason Hsu > > _______________________________________________ > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > KeePass or KeePassX for Linux and OSx. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:21:14 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:21:14 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] occupymn needs talent In-Reply-To: References: <7D7FC8B5-8343-4F3E-A762-979EF2FCA58B@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:19, Brady Hegberg wrote: > Ok, you people who bottom post are at least as annoying as Unity. > There's some huge long thread that I've already read multiple times but > I have to look through it again for the 20th time to find your new text? > How is that anything but inconvenient and annoying? Bottom posting isn't the problem. The problem is the failure of the bottom-poster to do any editing of the recapped text. We should repeat only the text we are replying to. We should not include the message footer in our reply. The last one had four copies of that footer. We've even had people responding to an entire day's digest with one sentence appeneded at the bottom. Some people either have no sense at all or they are very inconsiderate of their readers. Mike From cschumann at twp-llc.com Sun Oct 23 20:31:10 2011 From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:31:10 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA4BFDE.8070701@twp-llc.com> > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:00:47 -0500 > From: Jason Hsu > > I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for everything, and writing down passwords. Writing down passwords isn't such an awful thing. (BTW, I use KeyPass Droid.) Here's one way to do it that's pretty secure: http://www.passwordcard.org/en Chris From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:38:29 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Sun, 23 Oct 2011, David Alanis wrote: > Quoting Jason Hsu : > >> I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using >> passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for >> everything, and writing down passwords. >> >> What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple passwords >> for all of the various accounts you have? Instead of using a small >> number of passwords, I really need to have one unique password for each >> login and use a program that stores and encrypts each one. What's your >> favorite program for implementing this? > > > KeePass or KeePassX for Linux and OSx. I should try that. What I've been doing instead is using a certain format for the password, something like #:xx637FUbar where the xx part is replaced by a couple of letters based on the name of the machine or system I am connecting to. That means that I have different passwords on every system, but I can still remember them. I guess it is theoretically possible for someone to figure out what I've done, but I think that is very unlikely. Mike From hpenner at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 20:51:40 2011 From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:51:40 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: > I should try that. ?What I've been doing instead is using a certain format > for the password, something like #:xx637FUbar where the xx part is replaced > by a couple of letters based on the name of the machine or system I am > connecting to. ?That means that I have different passwords on every system, > but I can still remember them. ?I guess it is theoretically possible for > someone to figure out what I've done, but I think that is very unlikely. > > Mike I've read in several 'security' places (conferences, blogs, etc, take 'em all with a grain of salt) that that's a very effective way to manage passwords. The idea being that (1) the main component of the password is "strong", but there's only one so it's not too hard to remember, and (2) the site-unique piece of the password prevents the vulnerability associated with using a single (however strong) password for multiple sites. Since it's completely unreasonable to expect a normal person to remember multiple "strong" passwords, it's what I recommend to extended family and friends. However, I was unaware of KeePass... Seems like that solves the problem more securely, and with less thought/memorization required on the user end. Thanks for the recommendation! -H -- Harry Penner 952-807-4229 From ron at ron-l-j.com Mon Oct 24 01:09:58 2011 From: ron at ron-l-j.com (ron at ron-l-j.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 00:09:58 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Password Management In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8acb74d0e936f554cafb46031030d9a8.squirrel@ron-l-j.com> I use an encrypted password protected file on my computer to store my password list. A good strong password must be larger then 15 charters on windows or else it is stored locally in the SAM database. I suggest using phrases and placing symbols or numbers where the spaces would be. such as [The(cow#Jumped6Over^The$Moon)] Just a tip. ,Ron From lmclemens at comcast.net Mon Oct 24 06:21:03 2011 From: lmclemens at comcast.net (Larry Clemens) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 06:21:03 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 82, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA54A1F.3040508@comcast.net> On 10/23/2011 8:15 PM, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote: > Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Keeping track of multiple passwords (Jason Hsu) > 2. Re: Keeping track of multiple passwords (David Alanis) > 3. Re: Keeping track of multiple passwords (Mark Katerberg) > 4. Re: Keeping track of multiple passwords (Brian Lawrence) > 5. Re: occupymn needs talent (Mr. B-o-B) > 6. Re: occupymn needs talent (Andrew Berg) > 7. Re: occupymn needs talent (Mike Miller) > 8. Re: occupymn needs talent (Mr. B-o-B) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 12:00:47 -0500 > From: Jason Hsu > To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org > Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords > Message-ID:<20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b at jasonhsu.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for everything, and writing down passwords. > > What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple passwords for all of the various accounts you have? Instead of using a small number of passwords, I really need to have one unique password for each login and use a program that stores and encrypts each one. What's your favorite program for implementing this? > Use short phrases with spaces between the words. Example: for Google, perhaps, "search is great". Most sites allow spaces as a part of the password. Check the technique on password rating sites (for example howsecureismypassword.net/ ) and you will see password crackers will have to spend years trying to break it. Larry From tompoe at meltel.net Mon Oct 24 07:26:00 2011 From: tompoe at meltel.net (tom) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 07:26:00 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] call out to st cloud linux users for meet Message-ID: <1319459160.17536.6.camel@taichi> I'd like to call for a meeting in St Clooud for linux users. Specifically, I'd like to develop a virtual world application using the Open Cobalt virtual world browser that individuals and communities might use to gather and collaborate online. Peer to peer technology lies at the heart of this project. Opencobalt.org If interested, please contact me off-list. Thanks, Tom Poe, Eden Valley, MN From florin at iucha.net Mon Oct 24 08:01:53 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:01:53 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 08:51:40PM -0500, Harry Penner wrote: > > I should try that. ?What I've been doing instead is using a certain format > > for the password, something like #:xx637FUbar where the xx part is replaced > > by a couple of letters based on the name of the machine or system I am > > connecting to. ?That means that I have different passwords on every system, > > but I can still remember them. ?I guess it is theoretically possible for > > someone to figure out what I've done, but I think that is very unlikely. > > > > Mike > > I've read in several 'security' places (conferences, blogs, etc, take > 'em all with a grain of salt) that that's a very effective way to > manage passwords. The idea being that (1) the main component of the > password is "strong", but there's only one so it's not too hard to > remember, and (2) the site-unique piece of the password prevents the > vulnerability associated with using a single (however strong) password > for multiple sites. Since it's completely unreasonable to expect a > normal person to remember multiple "strong" passwords, it's what I > recommend to extended family and friends. http://cuddletech.com/blog/?p=666 and xkcd make a good point in that we should not be using pass-words but pass-phrases. More entropy and easier on our brains. Cheers, florin -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From mark.katerberg at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 08:04:07 2011 From: mark.katerberg at gmail.com (Mark Katerberg) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:04:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: Google Password Haystacks from http://grc.com Good stuff On Oct 24, 2011 8:02 AM, "Florin Iucha" wrote: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 08:51:40PM -0500, Harry Penner wrote: > > > I should try that. What I've been doing instead is using a certain > format > > > for the password, something like #:xx637FUbar where the xx part is > replaced > > > by a couple of letters based on the name of the machine or system I am > > > connecting to. That means that I have different passwords on every > system, > > > but I can still remember them. I guess it is theoretically possible > for > > > someone to figure out what I've done, but I think that is very > unlikely. > > > > > > Mike > > > > I've read in several 'security' places (conferences, blogs, etc, take > > 'em all with a grain of salt) that that's a very effective way to > > manage passwords. The idea being that (1) the main component of the > > password is "strong", but there's only one so it's not too hard to > > remember, and (2) the site-unique piece of the password prevents the > > vulnerability associated with using a single (however strong) password > > for multiple sites. Since it's completely unreasonable to expect a > > normal person to remember multiple "strong" passwords, it's what I > > recommend to extended family and friends. > > http://cuddletech.com/blog/?p=666 and xkcd make a good point in that we > should not be using pass-words but pass-phrases. More entropy and > easier on our brains. > > Cheers, > florin > > -- > Don't question authority! They don't know either. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From andyzib at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 09:38:21 2011 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:38:21 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: I use LastPass myself. The browser plugins and extensions are very nice and work on Mac, Linux, and Windows. The more I use LastPass' form fill features the more I don't want to be without it. Sometimes it's really nice to be able to make a purchase online with just a swipe of my finger on the finger print reader or by entering just your LastPass master password (LastPass can utilize the fingerprint reader on my Windows work laptop for authentication, don't know if this works on other operating systems). My understanding is encryption is done on the client side, so you're only storing an encrypted blob on the LastPass servers. I'm also a premium customer ($12 year) and I have a YubiKey attached to my account as well as my wife's, though I've set my computers that are encrypted and have reasonable timeouts for screen lock set to be trusted and not require YubiKey after initial setup. I also setup my wife with LastPass, and now we can securely share passwords with each other on shared accounts. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com From andyzib at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 09:46:12 2011 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 09:46:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] laptops and wifi cards question In-Reply-To: References: <1319340880.13617.5.camel@taichi> Message-ID: If you're looking for mobile broadband, I would look into the MiFi and similar devices or a smart phone that can create a WiFi hot spot (Additional tethering plan is usually required for AT&T and Verizion, possibly Sprint as well. I think T-Mobile says just go for it). The MiFi has the length and width of a credit card, but is a bit thicker. It creates a WiFi connection for your laptop and other 802.11b/g devices to connect to, and provide internet access via the carriers 3G and 4G services. No drivers or special software required, so you can get online with anything that speaks 802.11 and have the added bonus of a WiFi network between your connected devices. It supports up to 5 simultaneous devices. -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com From bradyh at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 10:18:21 2011 From: bradyh at gmail.com (Brady Hegberg) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 10:18:21 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] laptops and wifi cards question In-Reply-To: References: <1319340880.13617.5.camel@taichi> Message-ID: <1F60CBB0-AA16-4B65-A6FA-A86C574555AB@gmail.com> I've been using Clear at home (clear.com) and I've been relatively happy so far. With my plan I get a 4g receiver/wifi hub that can connect up to 5 devices. It runs on batteries so you can take it roaming but doesn't last longer than a couple hours without being plugged in. Wifi setup is very easy and I hooked the USB connector up to my Ubuntu box and it immediately recognized it and gave me a connection. -Brady On Oct 24, 2011, at 9:46 AM, "Andrew S. Zbikowski" wrote: > If you're looking for mobile broadband, I would look into the MiFi and > similar devices or a smart phone that can create a WiFi hot spot > (Additional tethering plan is usually required for AT&T and Verizion, > possibly Sprint as well. I think T-Mobile says just go for it). > > The MiFi has the length and width of a credit card, but is a bit > thicker. It creates a WiFi connection for your laptop and other > 802.11b/g devices to connect to, and provide internet access via the > carriers 3G and 4G services. No drivers or special software required, > so you can get online with anything that speaks 802.11 and have the > added bonus of a WiFi network between your connected devices. It > supports up to 5 simultaneous devices. > > -- > Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us > IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 13:26:08 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:26:08 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 24 Oct 2011, Florin Iucha wrote: > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 08:51:40PM -0500, Harry Penner wrote: > >>> I should try that. ?What I've been doing instead is using a certain >>> format for the password, something like #:xx637FUbar where the xx part >>> is replaced by a couple of letters based on the name of the machine or >>> system I am connecting to. ?That means that I have different passwords >>> on every system, but I can still remember them. ?I guess it is >>> theoretically possible for someone to figure out what I've done, but I >>> think that is very unlikely. >> >> >> I've read in several 'security' places (conferences, blogs, etc, take >> 'em all with a grain of salt) that that's a very effective way to >> manage passwords. The idea being that (1) the main component of the >> password is "strong", but there's only one so it's not too hard to >> remember, and (2) the site-unique piece of the password prevents the >> vulnerability associated with using a single (however strong) password >> for multiple sites. Since it's completely unreasonable to expect a >> normal person to remember multiple "strong" passwords, it's what I >> recommend to extended family and friends. > > http://cuddletech.com/blog/?p=666 and xkcd make a good point in that we > should not be using pass-words but pass-phrases. More entropy and > easier on our brains. I was using Solaris for more than a decade until a couple of years ago. In Solaris, though it gave no warning and accepted any password, only the first 8 characters of the password were used. So if a user entered the password "correct horse battery staple", the password would be "correct ", with the space. This created a blatantly obvioius security problem that Sun didn't seem to mind at all. When we use passwords online, we don't really know how much of the string is being used. If the system is truncating at 8 characters, we are putting ourselves in danger if we use pass-phrases, especially if the first 8 characters is a common word. For this reason, I like to use something a little tricky in the first 8 characters -- front-load your password. If you are going to use weird characters, it is better to have them at the beginning than at the end. The XKCD cartoon is deceiving because it makes a bunch of assumptions about how the password is encoded. For example, we supposedly know that only the first letter could be capitalized, but not the other letters. So if someone were to use *all* caps, that scheme would never even find PASSWORD as the password. Bizarrely, it also requires that the cracker know that the last two characters are a digit and a punctuation mark, but he doesn't know their order. If we have 52 alphabet characters, 10 digits and 33 non-alphanumeric characters, then we would start working on the 11-character password after doing the 95^10 10-character passwords, the 95^9 9-character passwords, etc. That's more than 65 bits just to get through the 10-character passwords and start on the 11-character passwords. Then there are more than 72 bits of 11-character passwords, so on average thats 71 bits to crack the 11-character password, which will never happen. I also don't agree that "staple battery horse correct" is easy to remember, or was it "horse right nail battery"? I think I'll give up and write it on a post-it and stick it on my monitor. Besides, if we are going to use a different password for every account we own, how are we going to remember dozens of weird word-strings and how they are assigned to accounts? By the way, the x.500 system at the U recently informed me that my password is too easy to guess. This seems quite odd to me because it accepted it in the first place and the password consists of 9 characters that include digits, punctuation, upper-case and lower-case letters and do not form any sort of recognizable word or phrase. Mike From mastercactapus at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 19:00:46 2011 From: mastercactapus at gmail.com (Nathan Caza) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:00:46 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: +1 again for keepass(x)/dropbox, also use the app on android. On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 12:00 PM, Jason Hsu wrote: > I understand that the no-no tactics in handling passwords are using passwords that are easy to guess, using the same password for everything, and writing down passwords. > > What's your favorite way to SECURELY handle having multiple passwords for all of the various accounts you have? ?Instead of using a small number of passwords, I really need to have one unique password for each login and use a program that stores and encrypts each one. ?What's your favorite program for implementing this? > > -- > Jason Hsu > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com Tue Oct 25 02:35:40 2011 From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 02:35:40 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound Install Fest/Release Party October 29th Message-ID: <4EA666CC.2080807@Goecke-Dolan.com> This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be Saturday October 29th at TIES, 1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108 from 9:00am to 5:00pm (See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more info.) This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting will be Install Fest / Release Party October 29th 9:00am to 5:00pm So bring your computer and come on down and install the new Ubuntu 11.10 ( Oneiric Ocelot ) or any Linux distribution you like! The doors will be open from 9:00am to 5:00pm Hope to see you there. ==>brian. I will try to stream some of the install fest. I am not sure I will stream the whole time, so if it isn't working you should try again later. Thanks. *** STREAMING *** If you can't make it you can use this url to stream the meeting. mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800 You should be able to connect with either: mplayer mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800 or vlc http://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800 From wdtj at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 08:55:22 2011 From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 06:55:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tclug-list] rm -rf not deleting all the files on NFS Message-ID: <1319550922.30850.YahooMailNeo@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Here's a mystery for all you NFS guru's out there. I have a RHEL zLinux system that mounts an NFS file system on an RHEL x64 system (PC disk space is much cheaper than mainframe).? I have a build process that checks out thousands of files onto this one NFS file system.? When the build process starts, I do a rm -rf of the whole directory to clean it out for the build before doing the checkout.? Unfortunatly I get an error in the middle of the rm -rf. ? I get the error: rm -r build/HEAD rm: cannot remove directory `build/HEAD/qa/testcapi/scripts': Directory not empty It appears that the rm did not remove some of the files in this directory.? I can then remove them by hand, so it's not a permission issue, besides the permissions are 644 and I'm the owner.? I've rebooted and fscked everything involved and still have the problem. Is there some sort of caching or locking issue with NFS that prevents these files from getting marked deleted before the rm command does it's rmdir (which is generating the error)?? To get around this, I've doubled up the rm -rf command and this seems to work.? The question I am having is why this is failing?? Any suggestions would be appreciated. ? --- Wayne Johnson,???????????? | There are two kinds of people: Those 3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, (612) 522-7003???????????? | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmore at starmind.org Tue Oct 25 08:59:23 2011 From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:59:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] rm -rf not deleting all the files on NFS In-Reply-To: <1319550922.30850.YahooMailNeo@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319550922.30850.YahooMailNeo@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like a sync issue to me. Add "sync" and "no_wdelay" to /etc/exports and "actimeo=0" to the mount command on the client side. -Josh More (Yeah, I'm new here... just moved to the cities.) On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Wayne Johnson wrote: > Here's a mystery for all you NFS guru's out there. > > I have a RHEL zLinux system that mounts an NFS file system on an RHEL x64 > system (PC disk space is much cheaper than mainframe). I have a build > process that checks out thousands of files onto this one NFS file system. > When the build process starts, I do a rm -rf of the whole directory to clean > it out for the build before doing the checkout. Unfortunatly I get an error > in the middle of the rm -rf. I get the error: > > rm -r build/HEAD > rm: cannot remove directory `build/HEAD/qa/testcapi/scripts': Directory not > empty > > It appears that the rm did not remove some of the files in this directory. > I can then remove them by hand, so it's not a permission issue, besides the > permissions are 644 and I'm the owner. I've rebooted and fscked everything > involved and still have the problem. > > Is there some sort of caching or locking issue with NFS that prevents these > files from getting marked deleted before the rm command does it's rmdir > (which is generating the error)? > > To get around this, I've doubled up the rm -rf command and this seems to > work. The question I am having is why this is failing? > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > --- > Wayne Johnson, | There are two kinds of people: Those > 3943 Penn Ave. N. | who say to God, "Thy will be done," > Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, > (612) 522-7003 | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jolexa at jolexa.net Tue Oct 25 09:08:00 2011 From: jolexa at jolexa.net (Jeremy Olexa) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:08:00 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] rm -rf not deleting all the files on NFS In-Reply-To: <1319550922.30850.YahooMailNeo@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319550922.30850.YahooMailNeo@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Wayne Johnson wrote: > rm -r build/HEAD > rm: cannot remove directory `build/HEAD/qa/testcapi/scripts': Directory not > empty > To get around this, I've doubled up the rm -rf command and this seems to > work.? The question I am having is why this is failing? NFS uses lock files, so while a file is in use there is a .nfsXXXX file sitting there. This explains why the double rm works. Check your scripts and make sure you aren't reading from a file while trying to remove it, etc. lsof and of course ls -a will help you find the culprit. Hope that helps. -Jeremy From wdtj at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 10:50:06 2011 From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 08:50:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [tclug-list] rm -rf not deleting all the files on NFS In-Reply-To: References: <1319550922.30850.YahooMailNeo@web162002.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319557806.3962.YahooMailNeo@web162004.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm sure that there are no processes using these files at the time the rm is happening.? Actually the files (and directory) of concern are never actually used in my build process.? They are script files that qa uses elsewhere.? Just easier to do a cvs checkout of the whole tree.? The one unique factor about the directory in question is that it has over 500 files.? Nice thought though.? Thanks. ? --- Wayne Johnson,???????????? | There are two kinds of people: Those 3943 Penn Ave. N.????????? | who say to God, "Thy will be done," Minneapolis, MN 55412-1908 | and those to whom God says, "All right, (612) 522-7003???????????? | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis >________________________________ >From: Jeremy Olexa >To: TCLUG Mailing List >Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 9:08 AM >Subject: Re: [tclug-list] rm -rf not deleting all the files on NFS > >On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:55 AM, Wayne Johnson wrote: >> rm -r build/HEAD >> rm: cannot remove directory `build/HEAD/qa/testcapi/scripts': Directory not >> empty > >> To get around this, I've doubled up the rm -rf command and this seems to >> work.? The question I am having is why this is failing? > >NFS uses lock files, so while a file is in use there is a .nfsXXXX >file sitting there. This explains why the double rm works. Check your >scripts and make sure you aren't reading from a file while trying to >remove it, etc. lsof and of course ls -a will help you find the >culprit. Hope that helps. >-Jeremy >_______________________________________________ >TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >tclug-list at mn-linux.org >http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 12:52:48 2011 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:52:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords Message-ID: Mike Miller: > When we use passwords online, we don't really know how much of the string > is being used. If the system is truncating at 8 characters, we are > putting ourselves in danger if we use pass-phrases, especially if the > first 8 characters is a common word. For this reason, I like to use > something a little tricky in the first 8 characters -- front-load your > password. If you are going to use weird characters, it is better to have > them at the beginning than at the end. I haven't read all of this thread but there's a lecture at the U coming up that is related to this. The title is: *Cryptography: Secrets and Lies, Knowledge and Trust*. http://www.ima.umn.edu/public-lecture/ -- Brian Wood Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From canito at dalan.us Tue Oct 25 15:21:29 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:21:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" Message-ID: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> Just curious what you guys think about unthink? The idea behind it is that users own the data and is not sold or used for marketing/tracking. http://techcrunch.com/2011/10/25/anti-facebook-social-network-unthink-launches-to-public/ Personally, I hate facebook for many reasons including that they harvest users' data. But just how do I convince my 60 year old mother to stop using facebook and that she should concern for her privacy? ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From andyzib at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 20:17:57 2011 From: andyzib at gmail.com (Andrew S. Zbikowski) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:17:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: > I was using Solaris for more than a decade until a couple of years ago. In > Solaris, though it gave no warning and accepted any password, only the first > 8 characters of the password were used. ?So if a user entered the password > "correct horse battery staple", the password would be "correct ", with the > space. ?This created a blatantly obvioius security problem that Sun didn't > seem to mind at all. Related: Passwords for Wells Fargo's Online Banking aren't case sensitive. UGH! -- Andrew S. Zbikowski | http://andy.zibnet.us IT Outhouse Blog Thing | http://www.itouthouse.com From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 01:57:33 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 01:57:33 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Brian Wood wrote: > Mike Miller: > >> When we use passwords online, we don't really know how much of the >> string is being used. If the system is truncating at 8 characters, we >> are putting ourselves in danger if we use pass-phrases, especially if >> the first 8 characters is a common word. For this reason, I like to >> use something a little tricky in the first 8 characters -- front-load >> your password. If you are going to use weird characters, it is better >> to have them at the beginning than at the end. > > > I haven't read all of this thread but there's a lecture at the U coming > up that is related to this. The title is: *Cryptography: Secrets and > Lies, Knowledge and Trust*. http://www.ima.umn.edu/public-lecture/ Thanks, Brian. That looks really interesting. I hope I can make it to that one. Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 02:01:36 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 02:01:36 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, Andrew S. Zbikowski wrote: >> I was using Solaris for more than a decade until a couple of years ago. >> In Solaris, though it gave no warning and accepted any password, only >> the first 8 characters of the password were used. ?So if a user entered >> the password "correct horse battery staple", the password would be >> "correct ", with the space. ?This created a blatantly obvioius security >> problem that Sun didn't seem to mind at all. > > Related: Passwords for Wells Fargo's Online Banking aren't case > sensitive. UGH! My first thought is that they are crazy, but then I think maybe they found out that with case sensitivity they get so many calls to the help line and so many password resets that it's just safer to turn off case sensitivity. People either leave on caps lock or they remember a word and forget what they used for case. Mike From tclug at freakzilla.com Wed Oct 26 04:16:21 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 04:16:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: Hi there, On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, David Alanis wrote: > But just how do I convince my 60 year old mother to stop using facebook > and that she should concern for her privacy? You can have her talk to my 60-year-old mother who signed up for facebook and promptly cancelled her account because she felt her privacy was invaded. Then again my mom also has a rooted Android phone which she installed cyanogenmod on. The /real/ answer is that, sadly, you can't. If your mom (and millions upon millions of other people) see value in using Facebook, they will use it. As far as they're concerned, it's a free service, though you and I know they're actually the merchandise. Personally I'd just sit back and wait for facebook to implode. -Yaron -- From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 04:54:48 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 04:54:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Yaron wrote: > The /real/ answer is that, sadly, you can't. If your mom (and millions > upon millions of other people) see value in using Facebook, they will > use it. As far as they're concerned, it's a free service, though you and > I know they're actually the merchandise. > > Personally I'd just sit back and wait for facebook to implode. We can see the value in the free-to-us service provided by Facebook, but the cost is hidden. It's hidden well enough that I, an inveterate Facebooker, don't know what it is. Will I be sorry someday? What is going to happen to me? I see the advertisements and I guess that's part of the price I'm paying, but that doesn't bother me. Should it? It's like that with Google, too. I'm not poo-pooing the privacy issue. I really don't see what can go wrong for me, so I'm asking. Mike From djsteinhafel at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 06:48:20 2011 From: djsteinhafel at gmail.com (djs) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 06:48:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> > We can see the value in the free-to-us service provided by Facebook, > but the cost is hidden. It's hidden well enough that I, an > inveterate Facebooker, don't know what it is. Will I be sorry > someday? What is going to happen to me? I see the advertisements > and I guess that's part of the price I'm paying, but that doesn't > bother me. Should it? It's like that with Google, too. > > I'm not poo-pooing the privacy issue. I really don't see what can go > wrong for me, so I'm asking. The Facebook service collects thousands of pages of information about each of her users. This blog post explains 22 privacy concerns from the perspective of Irish law: www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 The main concerns, as I see the situation, is that Facebook tracks every website you go to that has Facebook like/dislike buttons on it, even if you don't click the buttons, using web cookies iirc. Also, all site changes (privacy settings) opt-in users, so their account's privacy settings change even if they haven't logged in due to being out of town or similar. And that they never delete information even after you ask them to, they only hide it from you. Like said in the video, "No KGB or CIA ever had 1200 pages about an average citizen." (They do now.) As far as I can tell, Facebook doesn't provide a service that can't be recreated relatively easily by someone with web programming skills. Public and private messaging, image uploads, groups, event rsvp... most of the other "features" (face recognition, facebook apps/games) look like bloat to me and may even be considered detrimental to usability and user/site efficiency/performance. I had used Facebook in 2005-2009 but deleted the account because the site no longer reflected the service and terms I signed up for and agreed to. They probably have at least half a thousand pages on me. I'm curious to know why they are keeping it and what is going to happen with it in a year, five years, twenty years... From florin at iucha.net Wed Oct 26 08:10:31 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 08:10:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Keeping track of multiple passwords In-Reply-To: References: <20111023120047.10135323b460f218ca39a13b@jasonhsu.com> <20111023121825.96d65jyyf8t0c88k@mail.dalan.us> <20111024130152.GF3778@styx.iucha.org> Message-ID: <20111026131029.GE6837@styx.iucha.org> On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 02:01:36AM -0500, Mike Miller wrote: >> Related: Passwords for Wells Fargo's Online Banking aren't case >> sensitive. UGH! > > My first thought is that they are crazy, but then I think maybe they > found out that with case sensitivity they get so many calls to the help > line and so many password resets that it's just safer to turn off case > sensitivity. People either leave on caps lock or they remember a word and > forget what they used for case. Not only Wells Fargo. There are some other banks and brokers and credit cards that have the same feature. (Spoken from direct observation, I have no insider knowledge into their security protocols). Cheers, florin -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From nesius at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 09:24:15 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:24:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 6:48 AM, djs wrote: > > As far as I can tell, Facebook doesn't provide a service that can't > be recreated relatively easily by someone with web programming skills. > Nope. But you need serious horsepower under the hood to provision that service to so many users. Facebook is integrating A LOT of different services into their initial "find friends and shout at each other" service. Turns out that's what people really wanted. > Public and private messaging, image uploads, groups, event rsvp... > most of the other "features" (face recognition, facebook apps/games) > look like bloat to me and may even be considered detrimental to > usability and user/site efficiency/performance. > Their last major interface change jumped the shark for me. I don't find interacting with the site "pleasant" anymore. -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From canito at dalan.us Wed Oct 26 09:58:22 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:58:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111026095822.18iw010y1dvs4owg@mail.dalan.us> Quoting djs : >> We can see the value in the free-to-us service provided by Facebook, >> but the cost is hidden. It's hidden well enough that I, an >> inveterate Facebooker, don't know what it is. Will I be sorry >> someday? What is going to happen to me? I see the advertisements >> and I guess that's part of the price I'm paying, but that doesn't >> bother me. Should it? It's like that with Google, too. >> >> I'm not poo-pooing the privacy issue. I really don't see what can go >> wrong for me, so I'm asking. > > The Facebook service collects thousands of pages of information about > each of her users. This blog post explains 22 privacy concerns from the > perspective of Irish law: www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 > > The main concerns, as I see the situation, is that Facebook tracks every > website you go to that has Facebook like/dislike buttons on it, even if > you don't click the buttons, using web cookies iirc. Also, all site > changes (privacy settings) opt-in users, so their account's privacy > settings change even if they haven't logged in due to being out of town > or similar. And that they never delete information even after you ask > them to, they only hide it from you. Like said in the video, "No KGB or > CIA ever had 1200 pages about an average citizen." (They do now.) > > As far as I can tell, Facebook doesn't provide a service that can't > be recreated relatively easily by someone with web programming skills. > Public and private messaging, image uploads, groups, event rsvp... > most of the other "features" (face recognition, facebook apps/games) > look like bloat to me and may even be considered detrimental to > usability and user/site efficiency/performance. > > I had used Facebook in 2005-2009 but deleted the account I am sure you know this, but there is no such thing as *deleting* your facebook account. I too went back and forth between canceling my account and signing back in as nothing happened, which is quite a nice *feature* that facebook provides. I guess it's just a matter of how much you really value your online privacy, and civil rights at that. > site no longer reflected the service and terms I signed up for and > agreed to. They probably have at least half a thousand pages on me. > I'm curious to know why they are keeping it and what is going to > happen with it in a year, five years, twenty years... > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From ryanjcole at me.com Wed Oct 26 10:39:18 2011 From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:39:18 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: <20111026095822.18iw010y1dvs4owg@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <20111026095822.18iw010y1dvs4owg@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Oct 26, 2011, at 9:58 AM, David Alanis wrote: > I am sure you know this, but there is no such thing as *deleting* your facebook account. I too went back and forth between canceling my account and signing back in as nothing happened, which is quite a nice *feature* that facebook provides. > > I guess it's just a matter of how much you really value your online privacy, and civil rights at that. You can also download your entire account as a zip file. Mine, after 4+ years, is about 600MB. Go to https://www.facebook.com/settings and click on the "Download a copy of your Facebook data." link at the bottom of the main part of the page. -- Ryan From ryanjcole at me.com Wed Oct 26 10:52:44 2011 From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:52:44 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <20111026095822.18iw010y1dvs4owg@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <0A2EBE78-620D-47BC-83B7-FC767E1C0CEE@me.com> On Oct 26, 2011, at 10:39 AM, Ryan Coleman wrote: > > On Oct 26, 2011, at 9:58 AM, David Alanis wrote: > >> I am sure you know this, but there is no such thing as *deleting* your facebook account. I too went back and forth between canceling my account and signing back in as nothing happened, which is quite a nice *feature* that facebook provides. >> >> I guess it's just a matter of how much you really value your online privacy, and civil rights at that. > > > You can also download your entire account as a zip file. Mine, after 4+ years, is about 600MB. > > Go to https://www.facebook.com/settings and click on the "Download a copy of your Facebook data." link at the bottom of the main part of the page. Also if you are NOT using the secure version of Facebook for your day-to-day use of it I highly recommend you look into it. There are many unscrupulous people out there. -- Ryan From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 12:39:01 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:39:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, djs wrote: >> We can see the value in the free-to-us service provided by Facebook, >> but the cost is hidden. It's hidden well enough that I, an inveterate >> Facebooker, don't know what it is. Will I be sorry someday? What is >> going to happen to me? I see the advertisements and I guess that's >> part of the price I'm paying, but that doesn't bother me. Should it? >> It's like that with Google, too. >> >> I'm not poo-pooing the privacy issue. I really don't see what can go >> wrong for me, so I'm asking. > > The Facebook service collects thousands of pages of information about > each of her users. This blog post explains 22 privacy concerns from the > perspective of Irish law: www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 > > The main concerns, as I see the situation, is that Facebook tracks every > website you go to that has Facebook like/dislike buttons on it, even if > you don't click the buttons, using web cookies iirc. Also, all site > changes (privacy settings) opt-in users, so their account's privacy > settings change even if they haven't logged in due to being out of town > or similar. And that they never delete information even after you ask > them to, they only hide it from you. Like said in the video, "No KGB or > CIA ever had 1200 pages about an average citizen." (They do now.) It is unappealing to be tracked and to have information stored about me, but how will that information be used? They'll know something about web sites I visit, and maybe they'll tell the CIA. They'll know about my political attitudes and who my friends are. But then what? It seems to me that they'll try to use that information to present ads to me that I find attractive -- targetted advertising. Will that make me worse off or better off? How does the "number of pages" of information moderate the level of the supposed threat? Has anyone been harmed by Facebook yet? > As far as I can tell, Facebook doesn't provide a service that can't be > recreated relatively easily by someone with web programming skills. How many terabytes per day of digital information does Facebook organize, store and make instantly available in several billion page views per day to several hundred million users around the world with almost no downtime? I make it sound like a big deal, but I could have written Facebook in an afternoon with one hand tied behind my back. (Just kidding.) http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=468211193919 Mike From canito at dalan.us Wed Oct 26 13:26:24 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:26:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20111026132624.6rkaxwuare2gwg08@mail.dalan.us> Quoting Mike Miller : > On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, djs wrote: > >>> We can see the value in the free-to-us service provided by >>> Facebook, but the cost is hidden. It's hidden well enough that I, >>> an inveterate Facebooker, don't know what it is. Will I be sorry >>> someday? What is going to happen to me? I see the >>> advertisements and I guess that's part of the price I'm paying, >>> but that doesn't bother me. Should it? It's like that with >>> Google, too. >>> >>> I'm not poo-pooing the privacy issue. I really don't see what can >>> go wrong for me, so I'm asking. >> >> The Facebook service collects thousands of pages of information >> about each of her users. This blog post explains 22 privacy >> concerns from the perspective of Irish law: >> www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 >> >> The main concerns, as I see the situation, is that Facebook tracks >> every website you go to that has Facebook like/dislike buttons on >> it, even if you don't click the buttons, using web cookies iirc. >> Also, all site changes (privacy settings) opt-in users, so their >> account's privacy settings change even if they haven't logged in >> due to being out of town or similar. And that they never delete >> information even after you ask them to, they only hide it from you. >> Like said in the video, "No KGB or CIA ever had 1200 pages about >> an average citizen." (They do now.) > > > It is unappealing to be tracked and to have information stored about > me, but how will that information be used? They'll know something > about web sites I visit, and maybe they'll tell the CIA. They'll know > about my political attitudes and who my friends are. But then what? > It seems to me that they'll try to use that information to present ads > to me that I find attractive -- targetted advertising. Will that make > me worse off or better off? How does the "number of pages" of > information moderate the level of the supposed threat? Has anyone been > harmed by Facebook yet? Mike- I am not saying that you've ever made bad choices about what you post on your facebook account. But someone that may not necessarily think the world of you can potentially use it against you (of course I am just kidding). Nevertheless, here is a recent show on this american life (that you scan stream ) about a man Joe Lipari who posted a "threat" on his facebook account and got visited by the local police. http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/right-to-remain-silent ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From djsteinhafel at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:33:24 2011 From: djsteinhafel at gmail.com (djs) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:33:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601cc940d$c0cf7990$426e6cb0$@com> >They'll know something about web sites I visit, and maybe >they'll tell the CIA. They'll know about my political >attitudes and who my friends are. But then what? A comprehensive database of citizen's political attitudes and friends would be immensely beneficial for an authoritarian government attempting to censor ideas, parties and even people. The threat may seem hyperbolic right now, but thirty or more or even less years from now, Facebook's databases could be used to identify 'innocent' civilians as 'opposition' -- for simply being friends with somebody twenty years ago, even if they haven't communicated with them in over twenty years. I don't intend to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the scenario I describe as a response to "But then what?" seems, to me, like a practical, cost-effective solution for any government or entity attempting to preserve power and curb dissent. I'm not sure why some social networks log *all* activity of user's Friends List, because a couple well-placed subpoenas or (il)legal confiscations of server equipment would give any tyrannical regime more than enough information to persecute its critics and prevent an opposing political party from forming and communicating. -djs From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:42:01 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:42:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: <20111026132624.6rkaxwuare2gwg08@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <20111026132624.6rkaxwuare2gwg08@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, David Alanis wrote: > I am not saying that you've ever made bad choices about what you post on > your facebook account. But someone that may not necessarily think the > world of you can potentially use it against you (of course I am just > kidding). We leave a digital trail on the web, and we should consider what it says about us every time we post something. Unlike a lot of things about me, Facebook isn't visible to the entire world (at least not the way I have it configured). > Nevertheless, here is a recent show on this american life (that you scan > stream ) about a man Joe Lipari who posted a "threat" on his facebook > account and got visited by the local police. > > http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/414/right-to-remain-silent How is that different from posting something on one's personal web site, sending a threatening email message to a distribution list, sending a threatening letter or passing a threatening note, or just making a threatening statement to someone? In other words, what does Facebook (or even digital technology) have to do with what happened to Joe Lipari? I don't have time to listen to the radio show right now, so I'll have to ask: Was he turned in by Facebook staff? If not, I don't see this as being about Facebook. Wait - I found it... http://www.metro.us/newyork/local/article/902097--joe-lipari-the-poster-child-for-internet-stupidity ...and the story is that he was turned in by one of his Facebook "friends." So I don't see this as a Facebook-specific event and especially not an event that has anything to do with digital privacy. Mike From tclug at freakzilla.com Wed Oct 26 13:44:04 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:44:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <20111026132624.6rkaxwuare2gwg08@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: Damn you guys are paranoid. That's a good start. -Yaron -- From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:51:18 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:51:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: <000601cc940d$c0cf7990$426e6cb0$@com> References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <000601cc940d$c0cf7990$426e6cb0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, djs wrote: >> They'll know something about web sites I visit, and maybe they'll tell >> the CIA. They'll know about my political attitudes and who my friends >> are. But then what? > > A comprehensive database of citizen's political attitudes and friends > would be immensely beneficial for an authoritarian government attempting > to censor ideas, parties and even people. The threat may seem hyperbolic > right now, but thirty or more or even less years from now, Facebook's > databases could be used to identify 'innocent' civilians as 'opposition' > -- for simply being friends with somebody twenty years ago, even if they > haven't communicated with them in over twenty years. I don't intend to > sound like a conspiracy theorist, but the scenario I describe as a > response to "But then what?" seems, to me, like a practical, > cost-effective solution for any government or entity attempting to > preserve power and curb dissent. I'm not sure why some social networks > log *all* activity of user's Friends List, because a couple well-placed > subpoenas or (il)legal confiscations of server equipment would give any > tyrannical regime more than enough information to persecute its critics > and prevent an opposing political party from forming and communicating. Couldn't this hypothetical tyrranical government see your posting on TCLUG and think that you are a threat? I don't think that hiding who I am from the world is a good way to defend myself against the possibility that some future "regime" that doesn't like people like me will find me. In the meantime -- tyrranical regimes around the world are not mining Facebook, they are blocking it. The reason is that people like me who do not like tyrranical regimes are able to use Facebook to get our messages out there. We circumvent traditional and state media sources and create opportunities to organize. Facebook played an important role in the Arab Spring protest movement and in the Occupy movement. So it could be that the current reality is acting in the opposite direction of your hypothetical future by reducing the probability that any such tyrranical regime will be able to take power in the USA. I have gotten a lot out of Facebook. I "friend" people with similar scientific and political interests and their postings have introduced me to a lot of really important things that I wouldn't have known about otherwise. The Occupy Wall Street movement was one of those things -- it was on Facebook for a few weeks before I heard a word in mainsteam media, and if it weren't for Facebook, it is possible that mainstream media still wouldn't be covering Occupy Wall Street. In other words, Facebook plays a role in dictating which events are fit for our news media. Mike From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Wed Oct 26 13:51:57 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:51:57 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Desktop+mobile combo desktop OS Message-ID: <20111026135157.00e8e5d4de8e1a1bb75ea49b@jasonhsu.com> That seems to be the trend. The new Ubuntu with Unity is designed to work on desktop computers AND mobile devices. Windows 8 is supposed to offer the same capability. But why is it necessary for an OS to work on both desktop computers AND mobile devices? What's wrong with having one OS for the desktop and a different OS for a mobile device? I haven't heard anyone complain about the new Unity-based Ubuntu on mobile devices, but many have complained about how it works on the desktop. For all the talk about the desktop going away, I can't see that happening. How can you do serious work on a mobile device? I see mobile devices as something you use to quickly look something up or send a quick message. Mobile devices just don't have the basic ergonomics to support serious work, like working on your tax return or writing a major report. I think the controversy over the new Ubuntu is a preview of Windows 8. According to what I've read, Windows 8 looks and feels completely different from Windows XP and 7. Given that the average Windows user is more resistant to change than the average Ubuntu user, I think Windows 8 will be a fiasco, possibly even worse than Windows Vista. I can't imagine how Microsoft gains significant market share in mobile devices. It dominates the desktop market SOLELY because of the network effect of "everyone else uses it". There can't be that many people thinking, "This mobile OS doesn't cut it. I'm SO desperately waiting for Microsoft to come to the rescue!" I think Microsoft is in a similar position today as General Motors was in the late 1970s. Windows Vista was the new Chevy Vega. If Windows 8 is the new Chevy Citation, Microsoft is in big trouble. If Microsoft goes down, it will decline much more rapidly than GM did as a result of losing the network effect of "everyone else uses it". -- Jason Hsu From nesius at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:54:20 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:54:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <20111026132624.6rkaxwuare2gwg08@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:44 PM, Yaron wrote: > > Damn you guys are paranoid. > > > That's a good start. > I friended the Wikileaks page on Facebook. I've no doubt I'm a person of interest in at least four government agencies with TLAs and ETLAs for names. -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rick at real-time.com Wed Oct 26 13:55:33 2011 From: rick at real-time.com (Rick Tanner) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:55:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Desktop+mobile combo desktop OS In-Reply-To: <20111026135157.00e8e5d4de8e1a1bb75ea49b@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111026135157.00e8e5d4de8e1a1bb75ea49b@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4EA857A5.9030100@real-time.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 10/26/11 1:51 PM, Jason Hsu wrote: > > But why is it necessary for an OS to work on both desktop > computers AND mobile devices? Perhaps.. Develop "once" and then deploy "everywhere" ? Less learning curve for users ? -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEVAwUBTqhXpVwn8veVxBRBAQLFjQgAwRRatKcnUYx/bZroJJXyIJEEExbYwBEY yYF2RuFLQ+M39bC221W9/Y16Q7ILQ5pZWB/cdfCkn3z688PuoJn9/MuvY1TR2u2Q Dcx+vDSpWId/6Wy4mfwM7dm9MaLOH6vSDpapvXRxFwws854fUTDOSnsrqk40eTpw B4Mca8wuDA+zITma8zERL1z9Uo6Q+jAtvndMf2atU31D1Yc9I+gnpPbCK+uMP6co 4xsNa+H2Bu+4sV/4ad0wbjGyUHBCJxKE7u30agoefgQyP6Ehgb2zm1Xl55sLfF72 4Az7QXXhnf8x0S9R/nS4x0gwmANzP4dOHNPaBzGXBl6DgD8SNMJTFQ== =S1C0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From tclug at freakzilla.com Wed Oct 26 13:56:54 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:56:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <20111026132624.6rkaxwuare2gwg08@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > I friended the Wikileaks page on Facebook.? I've no doubt I'm a person of > interest in at least four government agencies with TLAs and ETLAs for names. Amateur. I had to actually go to the FBI and say "Can you guys please open a file on me?" They make you do that when you immigrate to this country. I like to think that I'm legally boring the hell out of some poor FBI agent. -Yaron -- From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:13:40 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:13:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Anti-Facebook Social Network "Unthink" In-Reply-To: References: <20111025152129.5wjt63uxvaoo0g48@mail.dalan.us> <20111026064820.3be6483f@gmail.com> <20111026132624.6rkaxwuare2gwg08@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > I friended the Wikileaks page on Facebook. I've no doubt I'm a person > of interest in at least four government agencies with TLAs and ETLAs for > names. For all we know the Wikileaks page on Facebook was created by a government agency. If they are smart, they also make white supremacist, jihadist, neo-Nazi, etc., pages as honeypots. Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:29:13 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:29:13 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Desktop+mobile combo desktop OS In-Reply-To: <20111026135157.00e8e5d4de8e1a1bb75ea49b@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111026135157.00e8e5d4de8e1a1bb75ea49b@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Jason Hsu wrote: > That seems to be the trend. The new Ubuntu with Unity is designed to > work on desktop computers AND mobile devices. Windows 8 is supposed to > offer the same capability. > > But why is it necessary for an OS to work on both desktop computers AND > mobile devices? What's wrong with having one OS for the desktop and a > different OS for a mobile device? I think we want the same core OS but with different GUI. The laptop typicall has less memory, less HDD and smaller screen than the desktop, but we want compatibility and similarity -- we don't want to have to relearn everything learned on one machine when we use the other. If the laptop version of the OS works better within the limitations of laptop hardware, and it sets up all of the laptop features properly (power management and WiFi, especially), then that's great. It's about getting the configuration right and dealing with restricted resources -- not a different OS, just a different version, possibly a different installation CD and different installation process. > I haven't heard anyone complain about the new Unity-based Ubuntu on > mobile devices, but many have complained about how it works on the > desktop. Allow me to be the first. I have it only on a Netbook and I hate it. > For all the talk about the desktop going away, I can't see that > happening. How can you do serious work on a mobile device? I see > mobile devices as something you use to quickly look something up or send > a quick message. Mobile devices just don't have the basic ergonomics to > support serious work, like working on your tax return or writing a major > report. The way I like to do things is with a cental desktop machine that can be accessed from a lot of other machines (desktop, laptop, handheld) and that can also access other machines (cluster, supercomputers). It's like having my own cloud. I use ssh and VNC to access that machine. Mike From nesius at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 10:37:48 2011 From: nesius at gmail.com (Robert Nesius) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 10:37:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup Message-ID: A follow-up to the facebook/privacy conversation, I think most of you would find this of interest. http://www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 -Rob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From canito at dalan.us Thu Oct 27 11:14:22 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:14:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20111027111422.e7tah7bwfsx8gwsk@mail.dalan.us> Quoting Robert Nesius : > A follow-up to the facebook/privacy conversation, I think most of you would > find this of interest. > > http://www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 > > -Rob > That was an interesting read. One of the comments made by a guy named Chris states that you could potentially be tracked without having a facebook account, which I know to be true. I am probably revealing too much information on this thread as it is, but I block third party cookies, prompt to accept cookies, flush all activity when I close my browser and use a noscript addon. I do this partly because I am into Security and because I don't want to disclose personal information without added benefits. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From jmore at starmind.org Thu Oct 27 11:04:15 2011 From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:04:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup In-Reply-To: <20111027111422.e7tah7bwfsx8gwsk@mail.dalan.us> References: <20111027111422.e7tah7bwfsx8gwsk@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: If people are interested in this sort of thing, this is how I do my secure browsing. http://www.starmind.org/2011/05/31/firefox-and-facebook/ I need to update the blog posting (the rapid FF release cycle screwed me up), but the general principles still work just fine... and it's cross-platform protection. -Josh More On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:14 AM, David Alanis wrote: > Quoting Robert Nesius : > > A follow-up to the facebook/privacy conversation, I think most of you >> would >> find this of interest. >> >> http://www.identityblog.com/?**p=1201 >> >> -Rob >> >> > That was an interesting read. One of the comments made by a guy named Chris > states that you could potentially be tracked without having a facebook > account, which I know to be true. I am probably revealing too much > information on this thread as it is, but I block third party cookies, prompt > to accept cookies, flush all activity when I close my browser and use a > noscript addon. > > I do this partly because I am into Security and because I don't want to > disclose personal information without added benefits. > > ------------------------------**------------------------------**---- > This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. > > ______________________________**_________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 12:24:15 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:24:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > A follow-up to the facebook/privacy conversation, I think most of you > would find this of interest. > > http://www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 Nice article. The table at the end lists all of the things Facebook is doing. Much of that is obvious and it doesn't bother me. The "excessive processing" thing is worrisome -- what are they doing? The other thing that bothers me a lot is that Facebook refuses to delete data, or whole accounts. So if I want out, they say "no". You can stop logging in, and you can stop adding information, and maybe they will stop displaying your account to others, but they keep the data forever. I knew about that problem from before I signed up, but I signed up anyway. I thought they would not be allowed to just keep it forever, but that will be up to the courts. Meanwhile, I avoid giving them any of my secrets. Mike From random at argle.org Thu Oct 27 12:40:54 2011 From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:40:54 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA997A6.1030908@argle.org> Facebook is not a governmental entity, there is no law on the US books that obliges them to do anything with your data that they don't want to. The only protection you have is copyright, and that is weaksauce for private individuals. On 10/27/2011 12:24 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Robert Nesius wrote: > >> A follow-up to the facebook/privacy conversation, I think most of you >> would find this of interest. >> >> http://www.identityblog.com/?p=1201 > > > Nice article. The table at the end lists all of the things Facebook is > doing. Much of that is obvious and it doesn't bother me. The > "excessive processing" thing is worrisome -- what are they doing? The > other thing that bothers me a lot is that Facebook refuses to delete > data, or whole accounts. So if I want out, they say "no". You can stop > logging in, and you can stop adding information, and maybe they will > stop displaying your account to others, but they keep the data forever. > I knew about that problem from before I signed up, but I signed up > anyway. I thought they would not be allowed to just keep it forever, > but that will be up to the courts. Meanwhile, I avoid giving them any > of my secrets. > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 12:55:48 2011 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:55:48 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup In-Reply-To: <4EA997A6.1030908@argle.org> References: <4EA997A6.1030908@argle.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Daniel Taylor wrote: > Facebook is not a governmental entity, there is no law on the US books > that obliges them to do anything with your data that they don't want to. I am not a lawyer, but if I were a lawyer, I would find it hard to know that "there is no law" obliging anything because I would have to know all of the laws to make that statement, wouldn't I? Another tricky issue is that laws often have very broad effects. For example, a law protecting privacy might be construed to impact on this issue of data storage. In other words, I'll believe you when I know that Facebook has been taken to court and has won a case. Or has that already happened? Mike From florin at iucha.net Thu Oct 27 13:16:00 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:16:00 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Secure Browsing Was: Facebook followup In-Reply-To: References: <20111027111422.e7tah7bwfsx8gwsk@mail.dalan.us> Message-ID: <20111027181559.GM6837@styx.iucha.org> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:04:15AM -0500, Josh More wrote: > If people are interested in this sort of thing, this is how I do my secure > browsing. http://www.starmind.org/2011/05/31/firefox-and-facebook/ Plenty of new and useful tips. Thanks! florin -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From random at argle.org Thu Oct 27 13:42:08 2011 From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:42:08 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup In-Reply-To: References: <4EA997A6.1030908@argle.org> Message-ID: <4EA9A600.2080603@argle.org> Oh, I am most definitely not a lawyer, but I know where the data restrictions are for the most part. The data retention and distribution laws impact government entities, lawyers, financial institutions, and health service providers and their contractors. Facebook is none of these things. Unless someone can come up with a law that does restrict them in any way the safe assumption is to assume that there is none, and behave accordingly. I could have been more clear in my original post. -- Dan From florin at iucha.net Thu Oct 27 13:48:36 2011 From: florin at iucha.net (Florin Iucha) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:48:36 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Facebook followup In-Reply-To: <4EA9A600.2080603@argle.org> References: <4EA997A6.1030908@argle.org> <4EA9A600.2080603@argle.org> Message-ID: <20111027184836.GN6837@styx.iucha.org> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 01:42:08PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote: > Facebook is none of these things. Unless someone can come up with a law > that does restrict them in any way ... and has the wherewithal to win the ensuing court battles ... > the safe assumption is to assume that > there is none, and behave accordingly. Stay at a safe distance and enjoy the fireworks. Myspace and friendster went away with a whimper, but there are plenty of money pumped into Facebook. Cheers, florin -- Don't question authority! They don't know either. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 189 bytes Desc: not available URL: From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com Fri Oct 28 01:54:29 2011 From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:54:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] **Saturday** Penguins Unbound Install Fest/Release Party October 29th Message-ID: <4EAA51A5.6000801@Goecke-Dolan.com> This months PenguinsUnbound.com meeting will be Saturday October 29th at TIES, 1667 Snelling Ave. N., St. Paul, MN 55108 from 9:00am to 5:00pm (See the web site http://www.penguinsunbound.com for directions and more info.) This month at the Penguins Unbound Meeting will be Install Fest / Release Party October 29th 9:00am to 5:00pm So bring your computer and come on down and install the new Ubuntu 11.10 ( Oneiric Ocelot ) or any Linux distribution you like! The doors will be open from 9:00am to 5:00pm Hope to see you there. ==>brian. I will try to stream some of the install fest. I am not sure I will stream the whole time, so if it isn't working you should try again later. Thanks. *** STREAMING *** If you can't make it you can use this url to stream the meeting. mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800 You should be able to connect with either: mplayer mms://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800 or vlc http://rss2000.video.ties2.net:1800 From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 09:35:31 2011 From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 09:35:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] **Saturday** Penguins Unbound Install Fest/Release Party October 29th In-Reply-To: <4EAA51A5.6000801@Goecke-Dolan.com> References: <4EAA51A5.6000801@Goecke-Dolan.com> Message-ID: <4EAC0F33.1000201@gmail.com> I thought I would be able to get a ride this time, but apparently not. I know it's a bit of a long shot (and short notice), but is there anyone willing to give me a ride out there and back from/to Eden Prairie? I'd be willing to help pay for gas if that's an issue. I know buses run near Saint Paul on the weekends, but there's nothing to get me out of Eden Prairie. From bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 11:06:01 2011 From: bahamutzero8825 at gmail.com (Andrew Berg) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:06:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] **Saturday** Penguins Unbound Install Fest/Release Party October 29th In-Reply-To: <4EAA51A5.6000801@Goecke-Dolan.com> References: <4EAA51A5.6000801@Goecke-Dolan.com> Message-ID: <4EAC2469.70304@gmail.com> Disregard the last message. I'm able to get a ride after all. See you guys about 12:30! From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com Sun Oct 30 11:12:04 2011 From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 11:12:04 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? Message-ID: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com> I wasn't at yesterday's Installfest, so I'd like to hear from those of you who did show up (and those of you who didn't but have tried Ubuntu 11.10 on your own). I'd especially like to hear from those of you who recently switched to Ubuntu from another OS. -- Jason Hsu From tclug at freakzilla.com Sun Oct 30 21:08:19 2011 From: tclug at freakzilla.com (Yaron) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:08:19 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? In-Reply-To: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Jason Hsu wrote: > I'd especially like to hear from those of you who recently switched to > Ubuntu from another OS. Well I went from Mint to Ubuntu if that helps. And then I actually installed Mythbuntu on my desktop because regualr Ubuntu was being stupid about playing hidef video, but mythbuntu on my media center had no problems. So then Mythbuntu on my desktop was being stupid about playing hidef video AND about audio. But I kicked it around a bit and now it's all working. (Ubuntu likes to have it's desktop environment control everything, and since I don't use it I have to go and manually add myself to the audio group. As for the video, for some reason a symlink to an nvidia library was not being created on the desktop). I know this isn't really the kind of story you wanted but what the hell. -Yaron -- From samael.anon at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 22:37:13 2011 From: samael.anon at gmail.com (Samael) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:37:13 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? In-Reply-To: References: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: i personally love ubuntu 11.10. the interface is very inviting. though when you install edubuntu through the software center it wipes out the interface and gives you the standard gnome. so my workaround was to just install the edubuntu software individually; no big problem. i always install it as a second operating system for customers who i can talk into trying linux. On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Yaron wrote: > On Sun, 30 Oct 2011, Jason Hsu wrote: > > I'd especially like to hear from those of you who recently switched to >> Ubuntu from another OS. >> > > Well I went from Mint to Ubuntu if that helps. And then I actually > installed Mythbuntu on my desktop because regualr Ubuntu was being stupid > about playing hidef video, but mythbuntu on my media center had no problems. > > So then Mythbuntu on my desktop was being stupid about playing hidef video > AND about audio. > > But I kicked it around a bit and now it's all working. > > (Ubuntu likes to have it's desktop environment control everything, and > since I don't use it I have to go and manually add myself to the audio > group. As for the video, for some reason a symlink to an nvidia library was > not being created on the desktop). > > > I know this isn't really the kind of story you wanted but what the hell. > > > -Yaron > > -- > > ______________________________**_________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/**mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From random at argle.org Mon Oct 31 10:16:19 2011 From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 10:16:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? In-Reply-To: References: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <4EAEBBC3.5010202@argle.org> For me this is the third time in a row that an Ubuntu upgrade has broken things that had been previously working on my system (audio again and wireless this time). Maybe it does better on a fresh install, but I'm less impressed than I was with their first few releases. -- Dan From cncole at earthlink.net Mon Oct 31 11:14:58 2011 From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:14:58 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? In-Reply-To: <4EAEBBC3.5010202@argle.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org > [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org]On Behalf Of Daniel Taylor > > For me this is the third time in a row that an Ubuntu upgrade has broken > things that had been previously working on my system (audio again and > wireless this time). > > Maybe it does better on a fresh install, but I'm less impressed than I > was with their first few releases. > Same here. Recent "upgrades" always break something that wasn't broke before. This time just annoying so far: I lost an optional wallpaper I liked, and maybe more I haven't discovered yet. I still prefer a major distribution like Ubuntu that has a large installed base and significant depth of support. Chuck From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Mon Oct 31 12:16:19 2011 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:16:19 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? In-Reply-To: References: <4EAEBBC3.5010202@argle.org> Message-ID: > > > For me this is the third time in a row that an Ubuntu upgrade has broken > > things that had been previously working on my system (audio again and > > wireless this time). > > > > Maybe it does better on a fresh install, but I'm less impressed than I > > was with their first few releases. > > Same here. Recent "upgrades" always break something that wasn't broke > before. This time just annoying so far: I lost an optional > wallpaper I liked, and maybe more I haven't discovered yet. I still > prefer a major distribution like Ubuntu that has a large > installed base and significant depth of support. > the only safe upgrade is no upgrade. some distros have a better track record with upgrades than others but none can claim no bumps. installers do, tho, now make it way easier than it used to be to install fresh, alongside the original. that's the safe way. of course you need juggle partitions or lvm to make space. once it's all seems hunkie dorie for awhile you can discard the obsolete volume. i was impressed that the 11.10 installer spelled right out that i have xp and 10.4 already installed, would i like to replace one of those or something else. too bad it crashed later. glad i was installing alongside.. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From canito at dalan.us Mon Oct 31 23:02:15 2011 From: canito at dalan.us (David Alanis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 23:02:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? In-Reply-To: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com> References: <20111030111204.7c7e54527fdbfc1ed18b1759@jasonhsu.com> Message-ID: <20111031230215.te85cxtusw40808o@mail.dalan.us> I really wish I could have made it to this past installfest and have had the opportunity to talk to people about their experiences using Ubuntu. From reading most of the responses, I am not convinced or does it encourage me to want to install Ubuntu on my desktop. I finally outgrew Gentoo <3 (only as a desktop :P), I ran Arch for a year at work (hated pacman and their mirrors) and finally have Fedora 14 installed. I don't want to exaggerate, but *Fedora* with Xfce is the shizz. To date, I've had no problems with the audio, nVidia drivers, nor have had to mess with xorg or any desktop settings. It's running rock solid with minor tuning. I don't know if my opinion counts really since all I've been running for the past 5 years was Gentoo with Fluxbox. Why aren't more people encouraging beginners to install Fedora? More recently, I overheard in a technical conference a couple of techies mention that they converted all of their work servers to Ubuntu. I guess its been out a long time. Am I being naive by dismissing it? Is it really as desirable as a server as much as it is a desktop? I find it hard to believe reading that Red Hat's rpm "didn't make the grade" with this company... http://www.ubuntu.com/products/casestudies/equitec-financial-services-chooses-ubuntu-server ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. From rlarson at skypoint.com Mon Oct 31 12:43:24 2011 From: rlarson at skypoint.com (Richard Larson) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 12:43:24 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? References: <4EAEBBC3.5010202@argle.org> Message-ID: <09D527EFC0264831B10592A0A3DC4918@richard> Well I couldn't get the wireless to work with 11.10 although it worked fine with 11.04. So I put Mint on instead. ----- Original Message ----- From: gregrwm To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 12:16 PM Subject: Re: [tclug-list] What do you think of Ubuntu 11.10? > For me this is the third time in a row that an Ubuntu upgrade has broken > things that had been previously working on my system (audio again and > wireless this time). > > Maybe it does better on a fresh install, but I'm less impressed than I > was with their first few releases. Same here. Recent "upgrades" always break something that wasn't broke before. This time just annoying so far: I lost an optional wallpaper I liked, and maybe more I haven't discovered yet. I still prefer a major distribution like Ubuntu that has a large installed base and significant depth of support. the only safe upgrade is no upgrade. some distros have a better track record with upgrades than others but none can claim no bumps. installers do, tho, now make it way easier than it used to be to install fresh, alongside the original. that's the safe way. of course you need juggle partitions or lvm to make space. once it's all seems hunkie dorie for awhile you can discard the obsolete volume. i was impressed that the 11.10 installer spelled right out that i have xp and 10.4 already installed, would i like to replace one of those or something else. too bad it crashed later. glad i was installing alongside.. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this message. 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