From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov  1 18:15:27 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 1 Nov 2013 18:15:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] petabytes
In-Reply-To: <CAMg8xatERqFNiuc3VmrT2LfKL13nD+F_Ocyyxi5_ntRMTQ3+Fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1310280906400.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <339C88C4-227E-4E6C-9DBE-02881E8C2B44@me.com>
 <CANJBhkhJDkZ5pMXLUrt8N+=zc3PAaeAr2PtfXhkr_=DpBZqTQg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMg8xatERqFNiuc3VmrT2LfKL13nD+F_Ocyyxi5_ntRMTQ3+Fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311011813120.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 29 Oct 2013, Munir Nassar wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 28, 2013 at 10:22 AM, Noah Markon <nmarkon at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> panfs://10.32.8.10:global               panfs   1.5P    903T    544T
>>> 63%     /panfs
>>
>> So how do you back that up?
>
> tapes, lots of them. and a robot to shuffle them around. and students
> to haul them offsite on a regular basis.

Thanks for answering!  I assumed tapes were used, but I didn't know about 
the robot.  That is a pretty amazing system.

(Munir is one of the supercomputer admins.)

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 02:42:59 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 02:42:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>

Hi all,

So I think I may have nuked my RAID array. It was ext4 and couldn't be 
over 16tb, so I tried to remove the new drives so I could make a new array 
and then move stuff over, and ended up having to rebuild the old one and 
now I can't mount it anymore.

ANYway, assuming I can't solve that problem (or even if I do!) I need to 
move my array to a new filesystem, and I'm considering either zfs, xfs or 
btrfs.

I was wondering if anyne on the list was using either of those (and 
hopefully on very large raid filesystems) and could comment on 
stability/performance/etc.

Thanks!

--

From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 09:52:17 2013
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 09:52:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAOZLdJV6CaH_3wU5XxPxp24=9iJs8WD+NqdtussSqbdHRzQzAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 2:42 AM,  <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>It was ext4 and couldn't be over
> 16tb
>
> I need to
> move my array to a new filesystem, and I'm considering either zfs, xfs or
> btrfs.

ext*3* has a 16TB limit.  ext4 can be up to 1EB.  It might still make
sense to consider other options, depending on how you're using it, but
don't do it just because of the size.

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 10:11:11 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 10:11:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.06 02:42, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> So I think I may have nuked my RAID array. It was ext4 and couldn't be 
> over 16tb, so I tried to remove the new drives so I could make a new array 
> and then move stuff over, and ended up having to rebuild the old one and 
> now I can't mount it anymore.
> 
> ANYway, assuming I can't solve that problem (or even if I do!) I need to 
> move my array to a new filesystem, and I'm considering either zfs, xfs or 
> btrfs.
ZFS is what I would recommend, since it certainly has tons of awesome features, and is very mature (just reached its 12th birthday) and
production ready.
It's not likely to be as stable on Linux as it is on Illumos and FreeBSD, but the OpenZFS project is working to minimize platform
differences and make it as usable and stable as possible across as many platforms as possible. FreeBSD has excellent documentation and there
are even a few people on this list who are familiar with it if you decide to go that route.
One thing to keep in mind about ZFS is that it is an entire storage subsystem and doesn't do well if it has things like RAID controllers or
some other logical volume management working behind the scenes. It's best to give ZFS direct access to the disks so it can make good decisions.



From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 11:09:51 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:09:51 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Your kids' chances of becoming programmers? ZERO
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061105200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Here is Part 1 of an article that I think will interest many of you:


Your kids' chances of becoming programmers? ZERO
We had it all in the 1980s. Here's what went wrong...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/06/why_your_kids_cant_program_part_1/


We have to wait for Part 2 to get the answers.

Mike

From stevetrapp at comcast.net  Wed Nov  6 11:26:25 2013
From: stevetrapp at comcast.net (Steve Trapp)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:26:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Your kids' chances of becoming programmers?
 ZERO
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061105200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061105200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20131106112625.0ea40ea4@falcon.cavelan.local>

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:09:51 -0600 (CST),
Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
> Here is Part 1 of an article that I think will interest many of you:
> 
> Your kids' chances of becoming programmers? ZERO
> We had it all in the 1980s. Here's what went wrong...
> 
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/06/why_your_kids_cant_program_part_1/
> 
> We have to wait for Part 2 to get the answers.

I trust that you, Mike, will tell us when Part 2 comes out?!
Thanks in advance!
 
> Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 11:28:50 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:28:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>

Yeah, I'm worried especially about stability on Linux, since I'm not 
rebuilding this entire server (:

This is software RAID5 - can ZFS just take over from that? I've not done a 
ton with it.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Andrew Berg wrote:

> On 2013.11.06 02:42, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> So I think I may have nuked my RAID array. It was ext4 and couldn't be
>> over 16tb, so I tried to remove the new drives so I could make a new array
>> and then move stuff over, and ended up having to rebuild the old one and
>> now I can't mount it anymore.
>>
>> ANYway, assuming I can't solve that problem (or even if I do!) I need to
>> move my array to a new filesystem, and I'm considering either zfs, xfs or
>> btrfs.
> ZFS is what I would recommend, since it certainly has tons of awesome features, and is very mature (just reached its 12th birthday) and
> production ready.
> It's not likely to be as stable on Linux as it is on Illumos and FreeBSD, but the OpenZFS project is working to minimize platform
> differences and make it as usable and stable as possible across as many platforms as possible. FreeBSD has excellent documentation and there
> are even a few people on this list who are familiar with it if you decide to go that route.
> One thing to keep in mind about ZFS is that it is an entire storage subsystem and doesn't do well if it has things like RAID controllers or
> some other logical volume management working behind the scenes. It's best to give ZFS direct access to the disks so it can make good decisions.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 11:24:50 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:24:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <CAOZLdJV6CaH_3wU5XxPxp24=9iJs8WD+NqdtussSqbdHRzQzAw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJV6CaH_3wU5XxPxp24=9iJs8WD+NqdtussSqbdHRzQzAw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061123050.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>

Ext4 has that >16TB limit if yu initially created the filesystem with 
64-bit descriptors (or something). It did not in this case, so I'd have to 
reformat no matter what. Ext4 is known to be occasionally problematic with 
very large filesystems, and I figure if I am building from scratch I may 
as well go with something that's meant for it.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tony Yarusso wrote:

> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 2:42 AM,  <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>> It was ext4 and couldn't be over
>> 16tb
>>
>> I need to
>> move my array to a new filesystem, and I'm considering either zfs, xfs or
>> btrfs.
>
> ext*3* has a 16TB limit.  ext4 can be up to 1EB.  It might still make
> sense to consider other options, depending on how you're using it, but
> don't do it just because of the size.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From admin at lctn.org  Wed Nov  6 11:33:08 2013
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:33:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Data recovery
Message-ID: <30896298.81383759188718.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>

I am helping a school attempt to recover data from a failed raid on a Win 2003 server. The server blue screens when it boots, complaining of corruption. I am hoping the data raid 1 is still recoverable. 

Booting to a Mint 15 Live CD, I see 2 HP Logical volumes, but get the following in dmesg: 

What tools or commands can I run, in hopes of gaining access to the data? 

d 
[ 884.779258] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918552 
[ 884.825085] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 884.825089] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918552 
[ 884.870915] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 884.916744] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.361377] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.361391] blk_update_request: 2 callbacks suppressed 
[ 945.361397] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0 
[ 945.407202] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.407224] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432128896 
[ 945.453033] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.453060] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432129104 
[ 945.498863] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.498883] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0 
[ 945.544692] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.544715] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 8 
[ 945.590518] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.590542] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0 
[ 945.636349] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.636368] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0 
[ 945.682177] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.682199] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918336 
[ 945.728006] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.728037] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918544 
[ 945.773836] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.773856] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0 
[ 945.819669] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 945.865493] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 975.755832] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 975.755844] blk_update_request: 2 callbacks suppressed 
[ 975.755847] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0 
[ 975.801660] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 975.801673] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432128896 
[ 975.847484] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 975.847498] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432129104 
[ 975.893321] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 975.893338] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0 
[ 975.939148] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 975.939158] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 8 
[ 975.984978] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 975.984993] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0 
[ 976.030804] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 976.030817] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0 
[ 976.076636] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 976.076649] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918336 
[ 976.122469] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 976.122481] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918544 
[ 976.168297] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 976.168310] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0 
[ 976.214122] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
[ 976.259947] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported invalid 
mint at mint /dev/cciss $ 


-- 
Raymond Norton 
LCTN 
952.955.7766 

-- 
Sent From My Desktop 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131106/3a33957b/attachment-0001.html>

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 11:36:51 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 11:36:51 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.06 11:28, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> Yeah, I'm worried especially about stability on Linux, since I'm not 
> rebuilding this entire server (:
> 
> This is software RAID5 - can ZFS just take over from that? I've not done a 
> ton with it.
Depends on what you mean by take over. You can have an arbitrary number of data disks with an arbitrary number of parity disks (though using
2, 4, or 8 data disks is more efficient than other configurations), so yes, you can easily do 4+1 with ZFS.
If you mean have some kind of RAID setup already that you want to put ZFS on top of, that's a bad idea and you should let ZFS' zpool
functionality handle that. You shouldn't (and in some cases can't) use other volume management or RAID systems underneath ZFS, since it can
lead to ZFS making poor decisions based on incorrect information about the disks.

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 11:38:56 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:38:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Your kids' chances of becoming programmers?
 ZERO
In-Reply-To: <20131106112625.0ea40ea4@falcon.cavelan.local>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061105200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <20131106112625.0ea40ea4@falcon.cavelan.local>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061137380.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Steve Trapp wrote:

> I trust that you, Mike, will tell us when Part 2 comes out?! Thanks in 
> advance!


I will do my best, but if any of you sees it before me, don't hesitate to 
post it.

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 11:39:26 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:39:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Data recovery
In-Reply-To: <30896298.81383759188718.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
References: <30896298.81383759188718.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061138540.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>

You can try testdisk (http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk).


On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Raymond Norton wrote:

> I am helping a school attempt to recover data from a failed raid on a Win
> 2003 server. The server blue screens when it boots, complaining of
> corruption. I am hoping the data raid 1 is still recoverable.
> 
> Booting to a Mint 15 Live CD, I see 2 HP Logical volumes, but get the
> following in dmesg:
> 
> What tools or commands can I run, in hopes of gaining access to the data?
> 
> d
> [? 884.779258] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918552
> [? 884.825085] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 884.825089] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918552
> [? 884.870915] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 884.916744] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.361377] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.361391] blk_update_request: 2 callbacks suppressed
> [? 945.361397] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
> [? 945.407202] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.407224] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432128896
> [? 945.453033] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.453060] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432129104
> [? 945.498863] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.498883] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
> [? 945.544692] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.544715] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 8
> [? 945.590518] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.590542] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
> [? 945.636349] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.636368] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
> [? 945.682177] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.682199] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918336
> [? 945.728006] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.728037] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918544
> [? 945.773836] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.773856] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
> [? 945.819669] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 945.865493] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 975.755832] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 975.755844] blk_update_request: 2 callbacks suppressed
> [? 975.755847] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
> [? 975.801660] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 975.801673] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432128896
> [? 975.847484] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 975.847498] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432129104
> [? 975.893321] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 975.893338] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
> [? 975.939148] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 975.939158] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 8
> [? 975.984978] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 975.984993] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
> [? 976.030804] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 976.030817] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
> [? 976.076636] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 976.076649] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918336
> [? 976.122469] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 976.122481] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918544
> [? 976.168297] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 976.168310] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
> [? 976.214122] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> [? 976.259947] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
> invalid
> mint at mint /dev/cciss $
> 
> 
> --
> Raymond?Norton
> LCTN
> 952.955.7766
> 
> --
> Sent?From?My?Desktop
> 
>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 11:43:28 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:43:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>

Well, if my RAID truly is dead and I can't recover any of the data on it 
(which it's looking like right now) then there's really no problem with me 
trashig that thing and letting ZFS take over.

I have 8 disks in there. What I assumed RAID5 would do with that was 6+2, 
which is fine by me. If ZFS can give me the same result as a RAID5 array 
can (as in, a continuous 18TB filesystem with 6TB for parity, or whatever) 
I'm totally fine with that. I will have to read up on ZFS, which I 
should've done ages ago anyway.


On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Andrew Berg wrote:

> On 2013.11.06 11:28, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> Yeah, I'm worried especially about stability on Linux, since I'm not
>> rebuilding this entire server (:
>>
>> This is software RAID5 - can ZFS just take over from that? I've not done a
>> ton with it.
> Depends on what you mean by take over. You can have an arbitrary number of data disks with an arbitrary number of parity disks (though using
> 2, 4, or 8 data disks is more efficient than other configurations), so yes, you can easily do 4+1 with ZFS.
> If you mean have some kind of RAID setup already that you want to put ZFS on top of, that's a bad idea and you should let ZFS' zpool
> functionality handle that. You shouldn't (and in some cases can't) use other volume management or RAID systems underneath ZFS, since it can
> lead to ZFS making poor decisions based on incorrect information about the disks.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 11:44:59 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:44:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Computer Chess
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061140450.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

This just came out on DVD yesterday:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/computer_chess_2013/

Again, the kind of thing that a lot of you will be interested in, but it 
isn't about Linux.  It's on Netflix, both DVD and Streaming.  I think 
there are extras on the DVD that are not on the Streaming version.

Mike

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 11:46:02 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:46:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Data recovery
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061138540.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <30896298.81383759188718.JavaMail.root@mail.lctn.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061138540.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KXQdXs=wYTWRjtrstDtT9Fhc7MJsNGP9mWCtZKzT9+=bQ@mail.gmail.com>

1) Start with ddrescue http://www.gnu.org/software/ddrescue/ to image the
drive as best as possible. Afterwards you can run multiple tools if you
want against the image without provoking the I/O error monster.

2) If the image can't be mounted then use testdisk as suggested.

Testdisk has saved me more times than I'd like to admin (mostly corrupt SD
cards). The downside is that files lose their original names. That's not so
bad if you've got a directory of photos, but if you're trying to associate
financial files or other private data, you're in for a tedious slog.

--
Michael Moore


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:39 AM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> You can try testdisk (http://www.cgsecurity.org/wiki/TestDisk).
>
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Raymond Norton wrote:
>
>  I am helping a school attempt to recover data from a failed raid on a Win
>> 2003 server. The server blue screens when it boots, complaining of
>> corruption. I am hoping the data raid 1 is still recoverable.
>>
>> Booting to a Mint 15 Live CD, I see 2 HP Logical volumes, but get the
>> following in dmesg:
>>
>> What tools or commands can I run, in hopes of gaining access to the data?
>>
>> d
>> [  884.779258] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918552
>> [  884.825085] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  884.825089] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918552
>> [  884.870915] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  884.916744] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.361377] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.361391] blk_update_request: 2 callbacks suppressed
>> [  945.361397] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
>> [  945.407202] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.407224] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432128896
>> [  945.453033] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.453060] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432129104
>> [  945.498863] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.498883] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
>> [  945.544692] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.544715] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 8
>> [  945.590518] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.590542] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
>> [  945.636349] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.636368] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
>> [  945.682177] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.682199] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918336
>> [  945.728006] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.728037] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918544
>> [  945.773836] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.773856] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
>> [  945.819669] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  945.865493] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  975.755832] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  975.755844] blk_update_request: 2 callbacks suppressed
>> [  975.755847] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
>> [  975.801660] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  975.801673] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432128896
>> [  975.847484] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  975.847498] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 432129104
>> [  975.893321] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  975.893338] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
>> [  975.939148] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  975.939158] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 8
>> [  975.984978] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  975.984993] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d0, sector 0
>> [  976.030804] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  976.030817] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
>> [  976.076636] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  976.076649] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918336
>> [  976.122469] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  976.122481] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 427918544
>> [  976.168297] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  976.168310] end_request: I/O error, dev cciss/c0d1, sector 0
>> [  976.214122] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> [  976.259947] cciss 0000:13:08.0: cciss: cmd ffff88007fb00000 is reported
>> invalid
>> mint at mint /dev/cciss $
>>
>>
>> --
>> Raymond Norton
>> LCTN
>> 952.955.7766
>>
>> --
>> Sent From My Desktop
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131106/691aea16/attachment-0001.html>

From droidjd at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 11:49:17 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:49:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdwHaJsRikjyBmAcuYWvAzS+TyE=eFg3S-gAi+N-88qiEQ@mail.gmail.com>

I would throw my hat in with XFS.  It's more mature on Linux than ZFS (I
think) and it's going to be the default filesystem on RHEL7, so it should
be getting even more attention and use then.  (It's also very mature... 19
years old now and it was ported to Linux in the late 90s.)

Just my $0.02


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:43 AM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> Well, if my RAID truly is dead and I can't recover any of the data on it
> (which it's looking like right now) then there's really no problem with me
> trashig that thing and letting ZFS take over.
>
> I have 8 disks in there. What I assumed RAID5 would do with that was 6+2,
> which is fine by me. If ZFS can give me the same result as a RAID5 array
> can (as in, a continuous 18TB filesystem with 6TB for parity, or whatever)
> I'm totally fine with that. I will have to read up on ZFS, which I
> should've done ages ago anyway.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Andrew Berg wrote:
>
>  On 2013.11.06 11:28, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I'm worried especially about stability on Linux, since I'm not
>>> rebuilding this entire server (:
>>>
>>> This is software RAID5 - can ZFS just take over from that? I've not done
>>> a
>>> ton with it.
>>>
>> Depends on what you mean by take over. You can have an arbitrary number
>> of data disks with an arbitrary number of parity disks (though using
>> 2, 4, or 8 data disks is more efficient than other configurations), so
>> yes, you can easily do 4+1 with ZFS.
>> If you mean have some kind of RAID setup already that you want to put ZFS
>> on top of, that's a bad idea and you should let ZFS' zpool
>> functionality handle that. You shouldn't (and in some cases can't) use
>> other volume management or RAID systems underneath ZFS, since it can
>> lead to ZFS making poor decisions based on incorrect information about
>> the disks.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131106/babb896e/attachment.html>

From eng at pinenet.com  Wed Nov  6 11:57:52 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 11:57:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Your kids' chances of becoming programmers?
 ZERO
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061105200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061105200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <527A8320.20902@pinenet.com>

Delightful article! Thanks, Mike. Looking forward to the next.

Out of some complete coincidence, I had started grad school at the U 
Biophysics Dept. in 1975. I didn't know it but the head was famous for 
inventing the digital Schmitt trigger. Big tube iron everywhere, plus 
new semiconductors.

Much of my grad research was in the Chemistry building, and lots of 
interest in how to computer automate chemistry.

It was frustrating to learn using punch cards (heavy boxes of them), 
then a year later you would see students using video terminals.

Otto Schmitt was a big advocate of "microcomputers." Unfortunately, 
Minnesota was a "supercomputer" state. We lost our ass.

I had worked at a baby bell and read a book from AT&T about fiber 
optics. Some business guy once asked, "Who ever heard of glass wires?"

Part2 is probably about how we like losing our asses.

Mike Miller wrote:
> Here is Part 1 of an article that I think will interest many of you:
>
>
> Your kids' chances of becoming programmers? ZERO
> We had it all in the 1980s. Here's what went wrong...
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/06/why_your_kids_cant_program_part_1/
>
>
> We have to wait for Part 2 to get the answers.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tompoe at meltel.net  Wed Nov  6 13:09:43 2013
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 13:09:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
Message-ID: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>

Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can 
handle latest linux software.  How old can I go?  Less than $200 price 
range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
Tom


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 13:22:32 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 13:22:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
References: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061321180.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>

You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily run the 
latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just did.

What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing REALLY 
heavy stuff you should be fine.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:

> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can handle 
> latest linux software.  How old can I go?  Less than $200 price range still 
> reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From rick at real-time.com  Wed Nov  6 13:40:41 2013
From: rick at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 13:40:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
References: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <527A9B39.3040105@real-time.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 11/6/13 1:09 PM, Tom Poe wrote:
> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that
> can handle latest linux software.  How old can I go?  Less than
> $200 price range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts
> appreciated.

I've purchased a handful of refurbished desktops from NewEgg and
MicroCenter for that price range.  Supplies are limited and inventory
changes rather quickly.

Hardware specs for $160.00 at the time or purchase:
Core 2 Duo
2GB RAM
80GB HDD

They've had no problems running the past two LTS versions of Ubuntu,
Xubuntu or Kubuntu.



-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iQEVAwUBUnqbMVwn8veVxBRBAQI5bwgAlThpcu2mQMjQtBz+RT60TRTPBhQvQ+hs
450V76x/yhyV1LfZtbh8qd+KkQurT7YTVHjvguqzeSab2NfoSR7HsASeoPwFq+Xw
3IdfoCgZ0+wLZf+XpeuUi4V81vp0PCsXrbkM5P71SCFxowZsysHGIzPrTcIePNJv
AAFzXTQ6dOXh/EVQMA+0grEOEguThpHe65nouhnuPCLPWwP4FwcuxsC+juJp+gu/
j8RPh/5To29RTjay/CH9KBQOE9R/J69ltt82bg5JhoISMZamWDqWbDtivKjX9/lQ
vhaIZa5fMNhkWj9doGqqtxZ+cNag0FiW0qf+/MMyYKt5DCOkG1nTYg==
=PXag
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Wed Nov  6 14:03:00 2013
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 14:03:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
References: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <20131106140300.5af86874e64f1b38f7f5317d@jasonhsu.com>

I've been able to buy 5-year-old desktop PCs for as little as $50.  

A PC that came with Windows Vista, 7, or 8 should have no difficulty running the new Ubuntu or its derivatives.  Linux Mint Debian Edition (which bypasses the heavy Ubuntu overhead) will be even faster.  A very lightweight distro like Puppy Linux or antiX Linux will run on PCs that are 10+ years old and have no resale value.

On Wed, 06 Nov 2013 13:09:43 -0600
Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:

> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can 
> handle latest linux software.  How old can I go?  Less than $200 price 
> range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
> Tom
> 
-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From harlan at bloomenterprises.org  Wed Nov  6 14:08:13 2013
From: harlan at bloomenterprises.org (Harlan H. Bloom)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 14:08:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] Your kids' chances of becoming programmers?
 ZERO
In-Reply-To: <527A8320.20902@pinenet.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311061105200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <527A8320.20902@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <2992684.195.1383768480316.JavaMail.harlan@star8>

In the "Interesting Timing" department, O'Reilly deal for the next week is books for learning how to program.  Here is the link:  http://post.oreilly.com/rd/9z1z1mhjofm6qtu3eih7t23lnh5edcg02oh9tt6l00g

A couple of the titles are for kids.

Use discount code: WKCODEKID 


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Engebretson" <eng at pinenet.com>
To: "TCLUG Mailing List" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 6, 2013 11:57:52 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] [OT] Your kids' chances of becoming programmers? ZERO

Delightful article! Thanks, Mike. Looking forward to the next.

Out of some complete coincidence, I had started grad school at the U 
Biophysics Dept. in 1975. I didn't know it but the head was famous for 
inventing the digital Schmitt trigger. Big tube iron everywhere, plus 
new semiconductors.

Much of my grad research was in the Chemistry building, and lots of 
interest in how to computer automate chemistry.

It was frustrating to learn using punch cards (heavy boxes of them), 
then a year later you would see students using video terminals.

Otto Schmitt was a big advocate of "microcomputers." Unfortunately, 
Minnesota was a "supercomputer" state. We lost our ass.

I had worked at a baby bell and read a book from AT&T about fiber 
optics. Some business guy once asked, "Who ever heard of glass wires?"

Part2 is probably about how we like losing our asses.

Mike Miller wrote:
> Here is Part 1 of an article that I think will interest many of you:
>
>
> Your kids' chances of becoming programmers? ZERO
> We had it all in the 1980s. Here's what went wrong...
>
> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/11/06/why_your_kids_cant_program_part_1/
>
>
> We have to wait for Part 2 to get the answers.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tompoe at meltel.net  Wed Nov  6 15:42:03 2013
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 15:42:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061321180.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061321180.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <527AB7AB.8010501@meltel.net>

On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily run 
> the latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just did.
>
> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing 
> REALLY heavy stuff you should be fine.
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>
>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can 
>> handle latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 price 
>> range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>> Tom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I 
mostly do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up webcam 
video production so I can make youtube rants about current events to 
keep me occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and webcam 
configuration desired.  I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and they have 
a couple HP desktops with XP on them.
Tom


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 16:02:43 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 16:02:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <527AB7AB.8010501@meltel.net>
References: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061321180.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527AB7AB.8010501@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061557300.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>

My mini-itx idea was definitely a DIY project. Which some people find fun! 
But if you're not comfortable building your own system, definitely get a 
refurb/openbox from Microcenter.




On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:

> On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily run the 
>> latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just did.
>> 
>> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing REALLY 
>> heavy stuff you should be fine.
>> 
>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>> 
>>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can handle 
>>> latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 price range still 
>>> reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> 
> Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I mostly 
> do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up webcam video 
> production so I can make youtube rants about current events to keep me 
> occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and webcam configuration desired. 
> I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and they have a couple HP desktops with XP 
> on them.
> Tom
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jordan at jbheinz.com  Wed Nov  6 16:34:36 2013
From: jordan at jbheinz.com (Jordan Heinz)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:34:36 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
Message-ID: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351D5@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>

I am a relatively new member to the mailing list.. I saw someone did a presentation on the Raspberry Pi last year.. I just got my hands on two of them about a month ago.. I googled some fun projects to use them for.. Not hitting any that I'm absolutely in love with yet.  I am actually using one to run my bitcoin mining rig.. the other sits idle with Raspbian on it.  Are there any users out there of them?  I'm not really into programming or robotics.. so that annuls quite a few projects for it.  Any good URLs would also be appreciated.

Thanks,
Jordan

From jordan at jbheinz.com  Wed Nov  6 16:31:18 2013
From: jordan at jbheinz.com (Jordan Heinz)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:31:18 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
Message-ID: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351CA@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>

Those $50-$100 used HP desktops will be fine for what you need.  I would do some research on the webcam you decide to purchase though.. to ensure it is compatible with Linux.  I purchased a Microsoft webcam once.. and eventually tried to use it in Linux.. big mistake.  I think any Logitech will be good.

-Jordan

On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily run 
> the latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just did.
>
> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing 
> REALLY heavy stuff you should be fine.
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>
>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can 
>> handle latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 price 
>> range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>> Tom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I 
mostly do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up webcam 
video production so I can make youtube rants about current events to 
keep me occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and webcam 
configuration desired.  I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and they have 
a couple HP desktops with XP on them.
Tom

From jordan at jbheinz.com  Wed Nov  6 16:41:49 2013
From: jordan at jbheinz.com (Jordan Heinz)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:41:49 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
Message-ID: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351EA@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>

I would throw in my vote for XFS too.  I've been running a 7TB software RAID5 at home for many years now with XFS.. zero issues.  I am glad I chose it as opposed to ext4 or zfs.

-Jordan

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:49:17 -0600
From: Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
Message-ID:
        <CAFjzMdwHaJsRikjyBmAcuYWvAzS+TyE=eFg3S-gAi+N-88qiEQ at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I would throw my hat in with XFS.  It's more mature on Linux than ZFS (I
think) and it's going to be the default filesystem on RHEL7, so it should
be getting even more attention and use then.  (It's also very mature... 19
years old now and it was ported to Linux in the late 90s.)

Just my $0.02


On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:43 AM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> Well, if my RAID truly is dead and I can't recover any of the data on it
> (which it's looking like right now) then there's really no problem with me
> trashig that thing and letting ZFS take over.
>
> I have 8 disks in there. What I assumed RAID5 would do with that was 6+2,
> which is fine by me. If ZFS can give me the same result as a RAID5 array
> can (as in, a continuous 18TB filesystem with 6TB for parity, or whatever)
> I'm totally fine with that. I will have to read up on ZFS, which I
> should've done ages ago anyway.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Andrew Berg wrote:
>
>  On 2013.11.06 11:28, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>
>>> Yeah, I'm worried especially about stability on Linux, since I'm not
>>> rebuilding this entire server (:
>>>
>>> This is software RAID5 - can ZFS just take over from that? I've not done
>>> a
>>> ton with it.
>>>
>> Depends on what you mean by take over. You can have an arbitrary number
>> of data disks with an arbitrary number of parity disks (though using
>> 2, 4, or 8 data disks is more efficient than other configurations), so
>> yes, you can easily do 4+1 with ZFS.
>> If you mean have some kind of RAID setup already that you want to put ZFS
>> on top of, that's a bad idea and you should let ZFS' zpool
>> functionality handle that. You shouldn't (and in some cases can't) use
>> other volume management or RAID systems underneath ZFS, since it can
>> lead to ZFS making poor decisions based on incorrect information about
>> the disks.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131106/babb896e/attachment-0001.html>

------------------------------

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 107, Issue 5
******************************************

From droidjd at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 16:47:21 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 16:47:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
In-Reply-To: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351D5@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
References: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351D5@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdyz_PV3dMshMKfPyKqg0Goj=A2QjCvrXUxP5t0R47OzYA@mail.gmail.com>

Although not too complex of a project, and maybe not too much what you're
looking for, but I won a Raspberry Pi a few weeks ago and was thinking of
using it in a MAME Arcade box.  Here's a link:
http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/mame4all_pi

-Andrew

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Jordan Heinz <jordan at jbheinz.com> wrote:

> I am a relatively new member to the mailing list.. I saw someone did a
> presentation on the Raspberry Pi last year.. I just got my hands on two of
> them about a month ago.. I googled some fun projects to use them for.. Not
> hitting any that I'm absolutely in love with yet.  I am actually using one
> to run my bitcoin mining rig.. the other sits idle with Raspbian on it.
>  Are there any users out there of them?  I'm not really into programming or
> robotics.. so that annuls quite a few projects for it.  Any good URLs would
> also be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Jordan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131106/17f3424a/attachment.html>

From tompoe at meltel.net  Wed Nov  6 16:55:10 2013
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:55:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351CA@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
References: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351CA@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
Message-ID: <527AC8CE.5070807@meltel.net>

On 11/06/2013 04:31 PM, Jordan Heinz wrote:
> Those $50-$100 used HP desktops will be fine for what you need.  I would do some research on the webcam you decide to purchase though.. to ensure it is compatible with Linux.  I purchased a Microsoft webcam once.. and eventually tried to use it in Linux.. big mistake.  I think any Logitech will be good.
>
> -Jordan
>
> On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily run
>> the latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just did.
>>
>> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing
>> REALLY heavy stuff you should be fine.
>>
>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>>
>>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can
>>> handle latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 price
>>> range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I
> mostly do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up webcam
> video production so I can make youtube rants about current events to
> keep me occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and webcam
> configuration desired.  I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and they have
> a couple HP desktops with XP on them.
> Tom
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
You're right about webcams.  I had good luck with Logitech 9000.
Tom


From tompoe at meltel.net  Wed Nov  6 16:58:43 2013
From: tompoe at meltel.net (Tom Poe)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:58:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061557300.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061321180.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527AB7AB.8010501@meltel.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061557300.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <527AC9A3.3040909@meltel.net>

On 11/06/2013 04:02 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> My mini-itx idea was definitely a DIY project. Which some people find 
> fun! But if you're not comfortable building your own system, 
> definitely get a refurb/openbox from Microcenter.
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>
>> On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily 
>>> run the latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just 
>>> did.
>>>
>>> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing 
>>> REALLY heavy stuff you should be fine.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can 
>>>> handle latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 
>>>> price range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>> Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I 
>> mostly do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up 
>> webcam video production so I can make youtube rants about current 
>> events to keep me occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and 
>> webcam configuration desired. I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and 
>> they have a couple HP desktops with XP on them.
>> Tom
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
I'm standing here applauding any and all that are able to complete 
mini-tx projects.  I think I will pursue the refurbished angle.  :)
Tom


From nakorsakov at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 17:29:48 2013
From: nakorsakov at gmail.com (N K)
Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 17:29:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi projects.
In-Reply-To: <mailman.22.1383778760.1673.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.22.1383778760.1673.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <527AD0EC.6000800@gmail.com>

I subscribe to 2 Linux magazines (both British)...Linux Format, and
Linux User & Developer.
They often have Raspberry Pi projects. You may be able to also find them
on-line or in a book store.
I thought that Barnes & Noble even carried a magazine devoted to
Raspberry Pi.

Lifehacker.com also should probably have some articles, tutorials, and
projects.

Lastly, I thought that the Twin Cities Maker group used to sometimes
hold Raspberry Pi sessions.
I'll have to check again myself because I've been wanting to do this for
some time.

-- Nicholas

On 06/11/13 04:59 PM, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org wrote:
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
> 	tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Raspberry Pi fun uses? (Jordan Heinz)
>    2. Re: recommend used desktop? (Jordan Heinz)
>    3. Re: zfs/xfs/btrfs (Jordan Heinz)
>    4. Re: Raspberry Pi fun uses? (Andrew Dahl)
>    5. Re: recommend used desktop? (Tom Poe)
>    6. Re: recommend used desktop? (Tom Poe)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:34:36 +0000
> From: Jordan Heinz <jordan at jbheinz.com>
> To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
> Message-ID:
> 	<7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351D5 at blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I am a relatively new member to the mailing list.. I saw someone did a presentation on the Raspberry Pi last year.. I just got my hands on two of them about a month ago.. I googled some fun projects to use them for.. Not hitting any that I'm absolutely in love with yet.  I am actually using one to run my bitcoin mining rig.. the other sits idle with Raspbian on it.  Are there any users out there of them?  I'm not really into programming or robotics.. so that annuls quite a few projects for it.  Any good URLs would also be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Jordan
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:31:18 +0000
> From: Jordan Heinz <jordan at jbheinz.com>
> To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
> Message-ID:
> 	<7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351CA at blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Those $50-$100 used HP desktops will be fine for what you need.  I would do some research on the webcam you decide to purchase though.. to ensure it is compatible with Linux.  I purchased a Microsoft webcam once.. and eventually tried to use it in Linux.. big mistake.  I think any Logitech will be good.
>
> -Jordan
>
> On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily run 
>> the latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just did.
>>
>> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing 
>> REALLY heavy stuff you should be fine.
>>
>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>>
>>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can 
>>> handle latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 price 
>>> range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I 
> mostly do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up webcam 
> video production so I can make youtube rants about current events to 
> keep me occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and webcam 
> configuration desired.  I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and they have 
> a couple HP desktops with XP on them.
> Tom
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 22:41:49 +0000
> From: Jordan Heinz <jordan at jbheinz.com>
> To: "tclug-list at mn-linux.org" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
> Message-ID:
> 	<7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351EA at blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> I would throw in my vote for XFS too.  I've been running a 7TB software RAID5 at home for many years now with XFS.. zero issues.  I am glad I chose it as opposed to ext4 or zfs.
>
> -Jordan
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 11:49:17 -0600
> From: Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
> Message-ID:
>         <CAFjzMdwHaJsRikjyBmAcuYWvAzS+TyE=eFg3S-gAi+N-88qiEQ at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I would throw my hat in with XFS.  It's more mature on Linux than ZFS (I
> think) and it's going to be the default filesystem on RHEL7, so it should
> be getting even more attention and use then.  (It's also very mature... 19
> years old now and it was ported to Linux in the late 90s.)
>
> Just my $0.02
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 11:43 AM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, if my RAID truly is dead and I can't recover any of the data on it
>> (which it's looking like right now) then there's really no problem with me
>> trashig that thing and letting ZFS take over.
>>
>> I have 8 disks in there. What I assumed RAID5 would do with that was 6+2,
>> which is fine by me. If ZFS can give me the same result as a RAID5 array
>> can (as in, a continuous 18TB filesystem with 6TB for parity, or whatever)
>> I'm totally fine with that. I will have to read up on ZFS, which I
>> should've done ages ago anyway.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Andrew Berg wrote:
>>
>>  On 2013.11.06 11:28, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>>> Yeah, I'm worried especially about stability on Linux, since I'm not
>>>> rebuilding this entire server (:
>>>>
>>>> This is software RAID5 - can ZFS just take over from that? I've not done
>>>> a
>>>> ton with it.
>>>>
>>> Depends on what you mean by take over. You can have an arbitrary number
>>> of data disks with an arbitrary number of parity disks (though using
>>> 2, 4, or 8 data disks is more efficient than other configurations), so
>>> yes, you can easily do 4+1 with ZFS.
>>> If you mean have some kind of RAID setup already that you want to put ZFS
>>> on top of, that's a bad idea and you should let ZFS' zpool
>>> functionality handle that. You shouldn't (and in some cases can't) use
>>> other volume management or RAID systems underneath ZFS, since it can
>>> lead to ZFS making poor decisions based on incorrect information about
>>> the disks.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131106/babb896e/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 107, Issue 5
> ******************************************
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 16:47:21 -0600
> From: Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAFjzMdyz_PV3dMshMKfPyKqg0Goj=A2QjCvrXUxP5t0R47OzYA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Although not too complex of a project, and maybe not too much what you're
> looking for, but I won a Raspberry Pi a few weeks ago and was thinking of
> using it in a MAME Arcade box.  Here's a link:
> http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/mame4all_pi
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Jordan Heinz <jordan at jbheinz.com> wrote:
>
>> I am a relatively new member to the mailing list.. I saw someone did a
>> presentation on the Raspberry Pi last year.. I just got my hands on two of
>> them about a month ago.. I googled some fun projects to use them for.. Not
>> hitting any that I'm absolutely in love with yet.  I am actually using one
>> to run my bitcoin mining rig.. the other sits idle with Raspbian on it.
>>  Are there any users out there of them?  I'm not really into programming or
>> robotics.. so that annuls quite a few projects for it.  Any good URLs would
>> also be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jordan
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131106/17f3424a/attachment-0001.html>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:55:10 -0600
> From: Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
> Message-ID: <527AC8CE.5070807 at meltel.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 11/06/2013 04:31 PM, Jordan Heinz wrote:
>> Those $50-$100 used HP desktops will be fine for what you need.  I would do some research on the webcam you decide to purchase though.. to ensure it is compatible with Linux.  I purchased a Microsoft webcam once.. and eventually tried to use it in Linux.. big mistake.  I think any Logitech will be good.
>>
>> -Jordan
>>
>> On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily run
>>> the latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just did.
>>>
>>> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing
>>> REALLY heavy stuff you should be fine.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can
>>>> handle latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 price
>>>> range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>> Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I
>> mostly do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up webcam
>> video production so I can make youtube rants about current events to
>> keep me occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and webcam
>> configuration desired.  I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and they have
>> a couple HP desktops with XP on them.
>> Tom
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> You're right about webcams.  I had good luck with Logitech 9000.
> Tom
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 06 Nov 2013 16:58:43 -0600
> From: Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
> Message-ID: <527AC9A3.3040909 at meltel.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 11/06/2013 04:02 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> My mini-itx idea was definitely a DIY project. Which some people find 
>> fun! But if you're not comfortable building your own system, 
>> definitely get a refurb/openbox from Microcenter.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/06/2013 01:22 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>>> You can easily put together a new mini-itx system that'll happily 
>>>> run the latest Linux desktop software for under $300. Source: I just 
>>>> did.
>>>>
>>>> What are you planning on running on the thing? Unless you're doing 
>>>> REALLY heavy stuff you should be fine.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Tom Poe wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello:  Time for me to think about purchasing used desktop that can 
>>>>> handle latest linux software. How old can I go?  Less than $200 
>>>>> price range still reasonable expectation?  Any thoughts appreciated.
>>>>> Tom
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Well, googled mini-itx and scanned over site.  Looks techie to me. I 
>>> mostly do email and watch msnbc videos, but would like to set up 
>>> webcam video production so I can make youtube rants about current 
>>> events to keep me occupied through the winter.  Graphics apps and 
>>> webcam configuration desired. I checked with Minco in St Cloud, and 
>>> they have a couple HP desktops with XP on them.
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
> I'm standing here applauding any and all that are able to complete 
> mini-tx projects.  I think I will pursue the refurbished angle.  :)
> Tom
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 107, Issue 7
> ******************************************
>


From jordan at jbheinz.com  Wed Nov  6 18:19:12 2013
From: jordan at jbheinz.com (Jordan Heinz)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 00:19:12 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
Message-ID: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC33525B@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>

This is actually a pretty interesting train of thought.. I may investigate making it an emulation box.

----------------------

From: Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com>
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
Message-ID:
        <CAFjzMdyz_PV3dMshMKfPyKqg0Goj=A2QjCvrXUxP5t0R47OzYA at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Although not too complex of a project, and maybe not too much what you're
looking for, but I won a Raspberry Pi a few weeks ago and was thinking of
using it in a MAME Arcade box.  Here's a link:
http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/mame4all_pi

-Andrew

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Jordan Heinz <jordan at jbheinz.com> wrote:

> I am a relatively new member to the mailing list.. I saw someone did a
> presentation on the Raspberry Pi last year.. I just got my hands on two of
> them about a month ago.. I googled some fun projects to use them for.. Not
> hitting any that I'm absolutely in love with yet.  I am actually using one
> to run my bitcoin mining rig.. the other sits idle with Raspbian on it.
>  Are there any users out there of them?  I'm not really into programming or
> robotics.. so that annuls quite a few projects for it.  Any good URLs would
> also be appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Jordan
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 20:55:44 2013
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 20:55:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] recommend used desktop?
In-Reply-To: <527AC9A3.3040909@meltel.net>
References: <527A93F7.80104@meltel.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061321180.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527AB7AB.8010501@meltel.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061557300.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527AC9A3.3040909@meltel.net>
Message-ID: <CAOZLdJWXHTyOWudu2ubeZeq2aEaEUmG7+9gmhdFtOHiAkwSTgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:58 PM, Tom Poe <tompoe at meltel.net> wrote:
> I'm standing here applauding any and all that are able to complete mini-tx
> projects.  I think I will pursue the refurbished angle.  :)

Well, mini-ITX isn't any different than building ATX - it's all the
same components, just in a different shape.  But yeah, if you've never
opened up a case before buy a prebuilt one for now.  :)

From tlunde at gmail.com  Wed Nov  6 23:21:20 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 23:21:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>



> On Nov 6, 2013, at 11:43 AM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> 
> I have 8 disks in there. What I assumed RAID5 would do with that was 6+2, which is fine by me. If ZFS can give me the same result as a RAID5 array can (as in, a continuous 18TB filesystem with 6TB for parity, or whatever) I'm totally fine with that. I will have to read up on ZFS, which I should've done ages ago anyway.

18T is no problem for ZFS. It sounds like you have 3T disks in RAID5 + a hot spare. With such large disks, that's a really bad idea because you have very high odds of hitting an error while trying to rebuild your array.  Here's one semi-technical explanation :  
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/why-raid-5-stops-working-in-2009/162

RAID6 or, better, raidz2 would be a good idea -- even better than RAID10 for data security:
http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2151343

ZFS' scrubbing, checksums, snapshots, etc. have won me over. 


Thomas

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov  6 23:53:25 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2013 23:53:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311062352250.17628@cockerel.yaron.org>

Yeah, I've been reading up. I'm probably doing a raidz2 on the thing.

My "old" RAID5 should be done rebuilding in about an hour, I'll try some 
recovery tricks after that. Even if it works, I'm making a raidz2 out of 
the new drives, moving everything over and then adding the old drives to 
the new raidz2.

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:

>
>
>> On Nov 6, 2013, at 11:43 AM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>
>> I have 8 disks in there. What I assumed RAID5 would do with that was 6+2, which is fine by me. If ZFS can give me the same result as a RAID5 array can (as in, a continuous 18TB filesystem with 6TB for parity, or whatever) I'm totally fine with that. I will have to read up on ZFS, which I should've done ages ago anyway.
>
> 18T is no problem for ZFS. It sounds like you have 3T disks in RAID5 + a hot spare. With such large disks, that's a really bad idea because you have very high odds of hitting an error while trying to rebuild your array.  Here's one semi-technical explanation :
> http://www.zdnet.com/blog/storage/why-raid-5-stops-working-in-2009/162
>
> RAID6 or, better, raidz2 would be a good idea -- even better than RAID10 for data security:
> http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2151343
>
> ZFS' scrubbing, checksums, snapshots, etc. have won me over.
>
>
> Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 09:57:38 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 09:57:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:

> ZFS' scrubbing, checksums, snapshots, etc. have won me over.


It sounds quite nice, but I guess the use of the CDDL license has gotten 
in the way of its development for Linux because the CDDL is a 
free-software license but not GPL compatible.

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CDDL

Apparently, ZFS was developed by Sun Microsystems which was bought out by 
Oracle.  So there is an Oracle version, called ZFS, distributed under the 
CDDL, and there is a "truly open-source successor," called OpenZFS, also 
distributed under the CDDL:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenZFS

I'm not sure how they differ.  In this thread, when people wrote about 
experiences with ZFS, were they really talking about ZFS or OpenZFS?  Or 
are they almost indistinguishable functionally and in terms of 
reliability?

(Open)ZFS sounds pretty spectacular.  I'm sure I'd love to try it.

Mike

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Nov  7 10:23:33 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 10:23:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311071021100.3892@cockerel.yaron.org>

I did go with ZFS.

One of the reasons is that I still occasionally live in Solaris-Land and 
it's about time I got more familiar with ZFS.

It's a raidz2 array, so 6 disks for data and 2 disks for spares.

Now begins the long arduous task of reacquiring the 6+ tb of data that I 
lost...


On Thu, 7 Nov 2013, Mike Miller wrote:

> On Wed, 6 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:
>
>> ZFS' scrubbing, checksums, snapshots, etc. have won me over.
>
>
> It sounds quite nice, but I guess the use of the CDDL license has gotten in 
> the way of its development for Linux because the CDDL is a free-software 
> license but not GPL compatible.
>
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CDDL
>
> Apparently, ZFS was developed by Sun Microsystems which was bought out by 
> Oracle.  So there is an Oracle version, called ZFS, distributed under the 
> CDDL, and there is a "truly open-source successor," called OpenZFS, also 
> distributed under the CDDL:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenZFS
>
> I'm not sure how they differ.  In this thread, when people wrote about 
> experiences with ZFS, were they really talking about ZFS or OpenZFS?  Or are 
> they almost indistinguishable functionally and in terms of reliability?
>
> (Open)ZFS sounds pretty spectacular.  I'm sure I'd love to try it.
>
> Mike
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 11:46:09 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 11:46:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <527BD1E1.4090006@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.07 09:57, Mike Miller wrote:
> It sounds quite nice, but I guess the use of the CDDL license has gotten 
> in the way of its development for Linux because the CDDL is a 
> free-software license but not GPL compatible.
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CDDL
Correct. This is why ZFS support cannot be in the Linux kernel itself (unless it were completely reimplemented from scratch).

> Apparently, ZFS was developed by Sun Microsystems which was bought out by 
> Oracle.  So there is an Oracle version, called ZFS, distributed under the 
> CDDL, and there is a "truly open-source successor," called OpenZFS, also 
> distributed under the CDDL:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenZFS
> 
> I'm not sure how they differ.  In this thread, when people wrote about 
> experiences with ZFS, were they really talking about ZFS or OpenZFS?  Or 
> are they almost indistinguishable functionally and in terms of 
> reliability?
Oracle closed the ZFS source code and they have their own version with a few new features like encryption. This version is proprietary and
exclusive to Solaris.
OpenZFS seems to be a new name for the open source version developed and maintained mainly by the Illumos project (the OpenSolaris family of
operating systems - e.g., OpenIndiana). At least one of the principal architects of ZFS, Matt Ahrens, left Oracle and is heavily involved in
the OpenZFS project. This version has a different set of new features, and the zpool version is 5000 to avoid confusion with the Oracle
version, which continued from 28 (it is in the mid 30s now). OpenZFS also refers to the current project underway to make ZFS easier to
support for many platforms.
Because of the different feature sets, the two are mostly incompatible, though it may be possible with the feature flags feature of the open
source ZFS to limit yourself to a common set of features.
I'm pretty sure most people outside the Oracle Solaris world refer to the open source version these days.

From tlunde at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 15:41:04 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 15:41:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <527BD1E1.4090006@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <527BD1E1.4090006@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DDB48EDD-DFCD-4FA0-9A57-E4E8A3216EC7@gmail.com>



> On Nov 7, 2013, at 11:46 AM, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs at gmail.com> wrote:
> Correct. This is why ZFS support cannot be in the Linux kernel itself (unless it were completely reimplemented from scratch).

No. It means that ZFS cannot be shipped as a binary which combines it and code under the GPL, such as the Linux kernel. 

It does not mean that ZFS may not be used as a binary kernel module. 

While ZFS first came to Linux via FUSE, the Lawrence Livermore national lab is funding ongoing development of ZFS in-kernel. This work is distributed as source, in compliance with the CDDL. 

For Ubuntu, one adds the PPA to /etc/apt/... and the source is pulled in and automatically compiled as necessary when the kernel is upgraded. A similar mechanism is available for RedHat & derivatives. 


> 
>> Apparently, ZFS was developed by Sun Microsystems which was bought out by 
>> Oracle.  So there is an Oracle version, called ZFS, distributed under the 
>> CDDL, and there is a "truly open-source successor," called OpenZFS, also 
>> distributed under the CDDL:
>> 
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenZFS
>> 
>> I'm not sure how they differ.  In this thread, when people wrote about 
>> experiences with ZFS, were they really talking about ZFS or OpenZFS?  Or 
>> are they almost indistinguishable functionally and in terms of 
>> reliability?
> Oracle closed the ZFS source code and they have their own version with a few new features like encryption. This version is proprietary and
> exclusive to Solaris.

So far, I agree with the  block of text above but not this:

> OpenZFS seems to be a new name for the open source version developed and maintained mainly by the Illumos project (the OpenSolaris family of
> operating systems - e.g., OpenIndiana).

OpenZFS is a marketing label that covers the increasing coordination between the Illumous folks, the FreeBSD community & the 
http://zfsonlinux.org folks. 


> At least one of the principal architects of ZFS, Matt Ahrens, left Oracle and is heavily involved in
> the OpenZFS project. This version has a different set of new features, and the zpool version is 5000 to avoid confusion with the Oracle
> version, which continued from 28 (it is in the mid 30s now). OpenZFS also refers to the current project underway to make ZFS easier to
> support for many platforms.

Yes to above, but no to below:
> Because of the different feature sets, the two are mostly incompatible, though it may be possible with the feature flags feature of the open
> source ZFS to limit yourself to a common set of features.

I've used 2 of the 3 open source ZFS code sets. I kept my version of ZFS at 28 so I could switch easily. 

Soon, I'll upgrade to version 5000. From then on, though, the whole point of "feature flags" is to try to maintain as much interoperability as possible. 

> I'm pretty sure most people outside the Oracle Solaris world refer to the open source version these days.
> 

Agreed. 

Thomas 

From tlunde at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 15:54:24 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 15:54:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311071021100.3892@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311071021100.3892@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <95707ABF-357F-4A9D-9F99-D62F52DE3F49@gmail.com>



> On Nov 7, 2013, at 10:23 AM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> 
> It's a raidz2 array, so 6 disks for data and 2 disks for spares.

Can you help me understand the point of hot spares with ZFS? (Cold spares save energy, I get that. )

Or, do you mean 6 disks' worth of useful data & 2 disks being used for parity data?  ZFS doesn't use whole parity drives.   

"Unlike RAID-5, RAID-Z doesn't use one specific drive for the parity, but it rotates the parity around different disks. This makes the system more efficient and prevents the parity disk from wearing out as fast." 
http://superuser.com/questions/255783/zfs-raidz-parity


See here for an example of how hot spares might not be useful:

https://blogs.oracle.com/ahl/entry/triple_parity_raid_z#comment-1248937070000

Thomas 


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov  7 16:01:30 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:01:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <95707ABF-357F-4A9D-9F99-D62F52DE3F49@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311071021100.3892@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <95707ABF-357F-4A9D-9F99-D62F52DE3F49@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1EBCC10A-5B72-4AFD-AC07-C3FB9D90B6D7@me.com>


On Nov 7, 2013, at 3:54 PM, Thomas Lunde <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:

> "Unlike RAID-5, RAID-Z doesn't use one specific drive for the parity, but it rotates the parity around different disks. This makes the system more efficient and prevents the parity disk from wearing out as fast." 
> http://superuser.com/questions/255783/zfs-raidz-parity

Uhm? RAID-5 rotates the parity amongst the disks? right?

From droidjd at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 16:11:03 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 16:11:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <1EBCC10A-5B72-4AFD-AC07-C3FB9D90B6D7@me.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311071021100.3892@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <95707ABF-357F-4A9D-9F99-D62F52DE3F49@gmail.com>
 <1EBCC10A-5B72-4AFD-AC07-C3FB9D90B6D7@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdw2D6hOHoopsaaRMbUQAHNPypWY-aRZpsXNdXDYeRGYTg@mail.gmail.com>

RAID-5 rotates the parity, yes.


On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

>
> On Nov 7, 2013, at 3:54 PM, Thomas Lunde <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "Unlike RAID-5, RAID-Z doesn't use one specific drive for the parity,
> but it rotates the parity around different disks. This makes the system
> more efficient and prevents the parity disk from wearing out as fast."
> > http://superuser.com/questions/255783/zfs-raidz-parity
>
> Uhm? RAID-5 rotates the parity amongst the disks? right?
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131107/b249279a/attachment.html>

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 16:20:29 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:20:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <DDB48EDD-DFCD-4FA0-9A57-E4E8A3216EC7@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <527BD1E1.4090006@gmail.com> <DDB48EDD-DFCD-4FA0-9A57-E4E8A3216EC7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527C122D.6070002@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.07 15:41, Thomas Lunde wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 7, 2013, at 11:46 AM, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Correct. This is why ZFS support cannot be in the Linux kernel itself (unless it were completely reimplemented from scratch).
> 
> No. It means that ZFS cannot be shipped as a binary which combines it and code under the GPL, such as the Linux kernel. 
That's what I meant. The CDDL ZFS code cannot be part of the Linux kernel, but as you said, it can indeed be loaded as a kernel module. I
wasn't trying to imply that FUSE is the only option for Linux.

>> OpenZFS seems to be a new name for the open source version developed and maintained mainly by the Illumos project (the OpenSolaris family of
>> operating systems - e.g., OpenIndiana).
> 
> OpenZFS is a marketing label that covers the increasing coordination between the Illumous folks, the FreeBSD community & the 
> http://zfsonlinux.org folks. 
Honestly, I can't really tell what exactly the term 'OpenZFS' is supposed to mean. Is it just the project/idea of better interoperability or
does it refer to new code toward that goal or what?

> Yes to above, but no to below:
>> Because of the different feature sets, the two are mostly incompatible, though it may be possible with the feature flags feature of the open
>> source ZFS to limit yourself to a common set of features.
> 
> I've used 2 of the 3 open source ZFS code sets. I kept my version of ZFS at 28 so I could switch easily. 
That works too.

From tlunde at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 16:21:55 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 16:21:55 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdw2D6hOHoopsaaRMbUQAHNPypWY-aRZpsXNdXDYeRGYTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311071021100.3892@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <95707ABF-357F-4A9D-9F99-D62F52DE3F49@gmail.com>
 <1EBCC10A-5B72-4AFD-AC07-C3FB9D90B6D7@me.com>
 <CAFjzMdw2D6hOHoopsaaRMbUQAHNPypWY-aRZpsXNdXDYeRGYTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4F01F924-6B38-410A-9EC4-1C6BFD9F89D7@gmail.com>


> On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:11 PM, Andrew Dahl <droidjd at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> RAID-5 rotates the parity, yes.

Right. The quote below gets RAID5 wrong; I just used it for the description of ZFS' parity scheme. 

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

FWIW, RAID4 uses a single parity disk. 

> 
>> On Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On Nov 7, 2013, at 3:54 PM, Thomas Lunde <tlunde at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > "Unlike RAID-5, RAID-Z doesn't use one specific drive for the parity, but it rotates the parity around different disks. This makes the system more efficient and prevents the parity disk from wearing out as fast."
>> > http://superuser.com/questions/255783/zfs-raidz-parity
>> 
>> Uhm? RAID-5 rotates the parity amongst the disks? right?
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131107/bf13e044/attachment-0001.html>

From tlunde at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 16:25:49 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 16:25:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <527C122D.6070002@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <527BD1E1.4090006@gmail.com> <DDB48EDD-DFCD-4FA0-9A57-E4E8A3216EC7@gmail.com>
 <527C122D.6070002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6240BEA4-66CA-42D8-8516-EE88AB0AB38B@gmail.com>



> On Nov 7, 2013, at 4:20 PM, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Honestly, I can't really tell what exactly the term 'OpenZFS' is supposed to mean. Is it just the project/idea of better interoperability


Yes. Better cooperation as new code is written for each ZFS implementation. Each project intends to keep its own source tree:
http://open-zfs.org/wiki/FAQ#section_2

Thomas

From tlunde at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 16:30:06 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Thu, 7 Nov 2013 16:30:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <527C122D.6070002@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <527BD1E1.4090006@gmail.com> <DDB48EDD-DFCD-4FA0-9A57-E4E8A3216EC7@gmail.com>
 <527C122D.6070002@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C7748986-7218-41AF-844E-711668F1C30D@gmail.com>


John reminds me that if you're not tired of hearing me preach the praises of ZFS (and a few pitfalls, too) then you should come to the Penguins Unbound meeting on Jan. 25. I'll be presenting on ZFS, having used it for about a year on two different OSes. 

  http://www.penguinsunbound.com

I'd love to hear from you if there are any questions you'd like me to try to address. 

Thanks 
Thomas

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Thu Nov  7 16:42:19 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 16:42:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] zfs/xfs/btrfs
In-Reply-To: <C7748986-7218-41AF-844E-711668F1C30D@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311060239220.6476@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A6A1F.1070105@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061127500.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <527A7E33.8010502@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311061140350.16806@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <478F5B1E-AB33-4329-A53D-1776A551C8AC@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311070938130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <527BD1E1.4090006@gmail.com> <DDB48EDD-DFCD-4FA0-9A57-E4E8A3216EC7@gmail.com>
 <527C122D.6070002@gmail.com> <C7748986-7218-41AF-844E-711668F1C30D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527C174B.6090200@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.07 16:30, Thomas Lunde wrote:
> 
> John reminds me that if you're not tired of hearing me preach the praises of ZFS (and a few pitfalls, too) then you should come to the Penguins Unbound meeting on Jan. 25. I'll be presenting on ZFS, having used it for about a year on two different OSes. 
> 
>   http://www.penguinsunbound.com
> 
> I'd love to hear from you if there are any questions you'd like me to try to address. 
I'll try to bring my machine currently being used as a file server that has a raidz as well as another zpool for ZFS on root in it if I can
make it out there. It's running FreeBSD instead of Linux, but you guys won't mind too much, will you?


From eng at pinenet.com  Thu Nov  7 18:52:32 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Thu, 07 Nov 2013 18:52:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
In-Reply-To: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC33525B@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
References: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC33525B@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
Message-ID: <527C35D0.90106@pinenet.com>

I'm not sure if this is interesting to others. And I have yet to refresh 
my stale programming memory for the winter.

But I got a little into the Arduino Uno last winter IIRC. The actual 
programmable Atmel chip is quite amazing enough, though nothing like the 
Raspberry Pi (Arm chip IIRC).

What amazed me was the "USB virtual serial port" terminal device 
connecting the Uno. This is provided by a separate chip on the Uno not 
normally flashed. However, I think there are even methods to reprogram 
this USB chip.

The reason I think this interface is interesting is that it exactly 
follows the design of Unix; a "mainframe CPU connected to users via 
controlling terminals."

And the "mainframe CPU" can now be some of many amazing pocket sized 
systems, many of which made Apple a leader again. And I know nothing 
about all those amazing micro supercomputers either, except my daughter 
was an engineer with Apple. She just started at Square, and I know 
nothing about credit cards either.

But I do know there will soon be a lot of old people in nursing homes 
wetting their pants if they don't have a babysitter. That babysitter can 
either be an unhappy young person or electronic.

The secondary user devices attached to mobile Linux CPUs via the USB 
virtual serial port seems like it could be anything. And it probably 
will. Very nice device interface IMHO.

Jordan Heinz wrote:
> This is actually a pretty interesting train of thought.. I may investigate making it an emulation box.
>
> ----------------------
>
> From: Andrew Dahl<droidjd at gmail.com>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List<tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
> Message-ID:
>          <CAFjzMdyz_PV3dMshMKfPyKqg0Goj=A2QjCvrXUxP5t0R47OzYA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Although not too complex of a project, and maybe not too much what you're
> looking for, but I won a Raspberry Pi a few weeks ago and was thinking of
> using it in a MAME Arcade box.  Here's a link:
> http://store.raspberrypi.com/projects/mame4all_pi
>
> -Andrew
>
> On Wed, Nov 6, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Jordan Heinz<jordan at jbheinz.com>  wrote:
>
>> I am a relatively new member to the mailing list.. I saw someone did a
>> presentation on the Raspberry Pi last year.. I just got my hands on two of
>> them about a month ago.. I googled some fun projects to use them for.. Not
>> hitting any that I'm absolutely in love with yet.  I am actually using one
>> to run my bitcoin mining rig.. the other sits idle with Raspbian on it.
>>   Are there any users out there of them?  I'm not really into programming or
>> robotics.. so that annuls quite a few projects for it.  Any good URLs would
>> also be appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Jordan
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 13:01:34 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 13:01:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuJ+D-DbkZ5r-n_+E69mvTf=DHtvDY0KZ8DztWpo-3S-w@mail.gmail.com>

Rick Engebretson :

> And the "mainframe CPU" can now be some of many amazing pocket sized
> systems, many of which made Apple a leader again. And I know nothing
> about all those amazing micro supercomputers either, except my daughter
> was an engineer with Apple. She just started at Square, and I know
> nothing about credit cards either.

I don't know much about credit cards either.  It's been over
ten years since I had either a credit or debit card.  So far
so good.  Those companies have teams of lawyers that
aren't thinking about your best interests.  If you don't have
lawyers to help you, the credit card companies will eventually
figure out how to  squeeze you.

> But I do know there will soon be a lot of old people in nursing homes
> wetting their pants if they don't have a babysitter. That babysitter can
> either be an unhappy young person or electronic.

>From what I've seen of nursing homes I can't recommend them.
While there are some caring people that work at them, I think
they have lazy and not so caring people working there also.
I read an article in the Villager about a care group for caregivers
that meets in a Lutheran church.  To me helping people stay
in their homes is a better approach than nursing homes.  I've
heard of "Visiting Angels" and other groups that can help with
that.


-- 
Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131109/e77eab97/attachment.html>

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 13:12:43 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 13:12:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
In-Reply-To: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351D5@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
References: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351D5@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
Message-ID: <527E892B.4010509@gmail.com>

On 11/6/2013 4:34 PM, Jordan Heinz wrote::
> I am a relatively new member to the mailing list.. I saw someone did a presentation on the Raspberry Pi last year.. I just got my hands on two of them about a month ago.. I googled some fun projects to use them for.. Not hitting any that I'm absolutely in love with yet.  I am actually using one to run my bitcoin mining rig.. the other sits idle with Raspbian on it.  Are there any users out there of them?  I'm not really into programming or robotics.. so that annuls quite a few projects for it.  Any good URLs would also be appreciated.

I've using a Pi @ home as our media center running openelec.

http://openelec.tv/

They have a Pi image available.

It's works well.




From tlunde at gmail.com  Sat Nov  9 14:10:10 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2013 14:10:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
In-Reply-To: <527E892B.4010509@gmail.com>
References: <7E287D20F76F4A4CBDCCE103E911733BBC3351D5@blackburrow.jbheinz.com>
 <527E892B.4010509@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AF270B82-BF1F-4781-9742-4CD1CFA48211@gmail.com>



> On Nov 9, 2013, at 1:12 PM, B-o-B De Mars <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I've using a Pi @ home as our media center running openelec.
> 
> http://openelec.tv/
> 
> They have a Pi image available.
> 
> It's works well.

Have you noticed any playback issues with OTA 1080i ?

I've got one running with OpenElec using the MythTV plugin to XBMC & sometimes playback is super smooth & sometimes it is really janky. Any advice?

Thanks
Thomas


From tmarble at info9.net  Sat Nov  9 18:44:51 2013
From: tmarble at info9.net (Tom Marble)
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 18:44:51 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Debian Outreach Project for Women deadline Monday 11/11
Message-ID: <527ED703.9050701@info9.net>

All:

You or someone you know is enthusiastic about Free Software
and is wondering how to get involved...

Check out the Debian Outreach Project for Women
https://wiki.debian.org/OutreachProgramForWomen

But hurry -- the deadline is Monday!

Regards,

--Tom

p.s. /me is an aspiring Debian Developer


From eng at pinenet.com  Sun Nov 10 05:20:10 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2013 05:20:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Raspberry Pi fun uses?
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjuJ+D-DbkZ5r-n_+E69mvTf=DHtvDY0KZ8DztWpo-3S-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuJ+D-DbkZ5r-n_+E69mvTf=DHtvDY0KZ8DztWpo-3S-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <527F6BEA.2080408@pinenet.com>

I appreciate your sentiments, Brian. I get a little crabby and write a 
little too figuratively trying to maintain privacy.

The company "Square" referred to apparently makes an accessory to pocket 
computers that processes credit cards and other personal info. The 
company was started by a founder of "Twitter." My daughter also worked 
at 3M making LCD displays. My point was there are yet many opportunities 
for digital innovators.

In regards old people, the 80 year old crop farmer who taught me welding 
now teaches me how sophisticated computerized farm machinery has become. 
And in a food processing plant a computer breakdown is a big deal. And 
medicine is almost all computers. The energy industry, same.

My basic point is that we rely on computing for most everything now. I 
am amazed by the resources available to innovators. And the need to 
develop serious skills in the US has never been greater. I'm sorry if I 
sound like yet another complainer.

Brian Wood wrote:
> Rick Engebretson :
>
>> And the "mainframe CPU" can now be some of many amazing pocket sized
>> systems, many of which made Apple a leader again. And I know nothing
>> about all those amazing micro supercomputers either, except my daughter
>> was an engineer with Apple. She just started at Square, and I know
>> nothing about credit cards either.
>
> I don't know much about credit cards either.  It's been over
> ten years since I had either a credit or debit card.  So far
> so good.  Those companies have teams of lawyers that
> aren't thinking about your best interests.  If you don't have
> lawyers to help you, the credit card companies will eventually
> figure out how to  squeeze you.
>
>> But I do know there will soon be a lot of old people in nursing homes
>> wetting their pants if they don't have a babysitter. That babysitter can
>> either be an unhappy young person or electronic.
>
>> From what I've seen of nursing homes I can't recommend them.
> While there are some caring people that work at them, I think
> they have lazy and not so caring people working there also.
> I read an article in the Villager about a care group for caregivers
> that meets in a Lutheran church.  To me helping people stay
> in their homes is a better approach than nursing homes.  I've
> heard of "Visiting Angels" and other groups that can help with
> that.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 11 15:35:00 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:35:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>

Ok, so I have my 16TB raidz2 ZFS pool now (running across 8 disks).

First, the performance on the thing is abysmal. Sometimes when you type 
'ls' it takes over a second to respond. I use the thing as a media center 
and when you hit Play on a video or music there's a huge delay before 
anything starts, not to mention seeking on large files.

Now I know that when you just build a RAID array with mdadm it lets you 
use it right away even though it's actually still building the array, and 
I thought maybe ZFS does that, too, which is degrading the performance. 
But zpool status doesn't show any info about that, so I'm wondering if 
this kind of performance is temporary or not, and how to determine that...

Second, I've had three "One or more devices has experienced an 
unrecoverable error." Each has been on a different drive. I don't know how 
to check /what/ the error was, though. Now, each and every one of these 
drives has gone through a 3+ day badblocks and come out with 
zero/zero/zero errors. Two of those errors have been on drives I've been 
using in my previous mdadm array with no errors whatsoever for 6 months. 
Is there any way to get a more... informative idea of what exactly error 
is being encountered.

Anyone?


--

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Mon Nov 11 16:47:00 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 16:47:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.11 15:35, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> Now I know that when you just build a RAID array with mdadm it lets you 
> use it right away even though it's actually still building the array, and 
> I thought maybe ZFS does that, too, which is degrading the performance. 
> But zpool status doesn't show any info about that, so I'm wondering if 
> this kind of performance is temporary or not, and how to determine that...
zpool status should tell you if it's doing something like scrubbing or resilvering. However, there isn't a whole lot to be done until you
start writing data.

> Second, I've had three "One or more devices has experienced an 
> unrecoverable error." Each has been on a different drive. I don't know how 
> to check /what/ the error was, though. Now, each and every one of these 
> drives has gone through a 3+ day badblocks and come out with 
> zero/zero/zero errors. Two of those errors have been on drives I've been 
> using in my previous mdadm array with no errors whatsoever for 6 months. 
> Is there any way to get a more... informative idea of what exactly error 
> is being encountered.
zpool status should tell you what kind of error (read/write/checksum), and which files, if any, were affected. I am actually still a bit new
to ZFS and have not yet had a disk fail (I've had read and checksum errors on single-disk pools that resulted in the loss of a file or two,
but not had an entire disk show as faulted). It could be that ZFS is finding problems that other file systems didn't, or it could be bugs in
the ZFS implementation causing data corruption or other problems (I have no idea how old the implementation you're using is or even what OS
since you didn't specify). I'm not qualified to say how stable ZFS on Linux is, so I want to make it clear that I am not implying that bugs
are the likely culprit, but rather a possibility.

I'm currently using a single-disk ZFS-on-root pool, another single-disk pool, and a degraded 5-disk RAIDZ (NewEgg is so slow when is comes
to shipping replacements!), and have not had issues, other than some performance issues which were fixed in FreeBSD 10-BETA1 (running -BETA3
right now), and some data loss on a couple of my older, less than reliable disks.

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 11 17:13:24 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:13:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Andrew Berg wrote:

> zpool status should tell you if it's doing something like scrubbing or resilvering. However, there isn't a whole lot to be done until you
> start writing data.

Yeah, it's not saying anything. And zpool iostat doesn't show anything 
that looks unusual to me (there are a lot of zeros in there). I was hoping 
that, like with an md raid, it takes a while to actually construct the 
array even though it lets you use it right away. If that's not the case 
then this guy is being crazy slow for no reason.

> zpool status should tell you what kind of error (read/write/checksum), 
> and which files, if any, were affected.

You would think so, right? (: But all it says is that there has been an 
error and it tried to fix it. status -x shows the device. Nothing about 
that device in syslog or anywhere else. This is my problem - I have no 
information and I do NOT like it.

Here's what I have right now:
----------------------------------------------
   # zpool status -x
     pool: media
    state: ONLINE
   status: One or more devices has experienced an unrecoverable error.  An
   	   attempt was made to correct the error.  Applications are
            unaffected.
   action: Determine if the device needs to be replaced, and clear the
            errors using 'zpool clear' or replace the device with 'zpool
            replace'.
    see: http://zfsonlinux.org/msg/ZFS-8000-9P
   scan: none requested
   config:

 	NAME        STATE     READ WRITE CKSUM
 	media       ONLINE       0     0     0
 	  raidz2-0  ONLINE       0     0     0
 	    sdb     ONLINE       0     0     0
 	    sdc     ONLINE       0     0     1
 	    sdd     ONLINE       0     0     0
 	    sde     ONLINE       0     0     0
 	    sdf     ONLINE       0     0     0
 	    sdg     ONLINE       0     0     0
 	    sdh     ONLINE       0     0     0
 	    sdi     ONLINE       0     0     0

   errors: No known data errors
-------------------------------------

As you can see there is no info to go on at all other than there was a 
checksum error.

> I'm currently using a single-disk ZFS-on-root pool, another single-disk 
> pool, and a degraded 5-disk RAIDZ (NewEgg is so slow when is comes to 
> shipping replacements!),

When I had a disk fail I just had Amazon send me a new one (gotta love 
Amazon Prime), and then sent the broken one in to WD for replacement. I 
don't think it hurts to have an extra spare lying around!

--

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Mon Nov 11 17:42:21 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 17:42:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.11 17:13, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> Here's what I have right now:
This is a lot less serious than it looks. ZFS is just telling you there was an unexpected bit flip (and since it didn't affect a file, it
was likely in the metadata, which ZFS keeps a duplicate of on top of whatever redundancy you have). If you see tons of these errors on a
disk, it probably means the disk is going bad, but a single checksum error could have been anything. I'd clear the error and then run a
scrub to see if you do indeed have bigger issues. Do keep in mind that a scrub is generally as fast as the disk can be, but it will consume
as much I/O as it can.
I still have no idea what would be causing poor performance, though unless your disks really do have a lot of bad blocks and/or are failing.

>> I'm currently using a single-disk ZFS-on-root pool, another single-disk 
>> pool, and a degraded 5-disk RAIDZ (NewEgg is so slow when is comes to 
>> shipping replacements!),
> 
> When I had a disk fail I just had Amazon send me a new one (gotta love 
> Amazon Prime), and then sent the broken one in to WD for replacement. I 
> don't think it hurts to have an extra spare lying around!
I bought 3 WD Reds from NewEgg and 2 from Amazon - one disk from each shipment was DOA. Amazon sent me a replacement with overnight shipping
and a label to return the defective one. NewEgg made me pay for the shipping label and wouldn't send me a replacement until they got the
defective one. The day after they got the defective one, they shipped out the replacement with the cheap 4-7 business day shipping. Amazon
has the same or better prices than NewEgg on stuff now, so I have definitely moved to Amazon as my first place to buy stuff (especially now
that I got 6 months of Amazon Prime free for being a student).

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 11 18:19:39 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 18:19:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Andrew Berg wrote:

> If you see tons of these errors on a disk, it probably means the disk is 
> going bad, but a single checksum error could have been anything.

I've had three of these in the <1week since I set up the pool, never on 
the same disk. I know it's not a "real" problem but if I'm clearing errors 
on a daily basis, even not serious ones, I have a bit of a problem with 
the filesystem...

> I still have no idea what would be causing poor performance, though 
> unless your disks really do have a lot of bad blocks and/or are failing.

not super likely to be a bad disk since, like I said, they've all gone 
through a very severe badblocks test before I put them in the array, and 
I'm not seeing anything in syslog.

> NewEgg made me pay for the shipping label and wouldn't send me a 
> replacement until they got the defective one.

See, I want to love newegg. I really do. Their system is phenomenal for 
researching components (very easy to find exactly what you want using 
their advanced/power search.

But Amazon beat them on price almost every time, plus Amazon Prime...

--

From tlunde at gmail.com  Mon Nov 11 20:22:46 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 20:22:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>


Bit flips like this helped me to discover that two of my 10 SATA cables were marginal. 

Since these are >2T drives, did you do anything with ashift? Depending on which ZFS implementation you're using, this question might not make sense?

An array of drives where some are faking 512 byte sectors and ( some are really using 512 byte sectors OR some are using 4K sectors ) can cause abysmal performance. 

Thomas


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 11 21:09:13 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 21:09:13 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112108080.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>

No idea what most of what you said is, no (:

These are all identical drives, in an external enclosure, so none of it is 
my own SATA cables. And again, no errors when they were in a software 
RAID5 (though there were half as many drives) and nothing in the system 
logs, which is why I am concerned...

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:

>
> Bit flips like this helped me to discover that two of my 10 SATA cables were marginal.
>
> Since these are >2T drives, did you do anything with ashift? Depending on which ZFS implementation you're using, this question might not make sense?
>
> An array of drives where some are faking 512 byte sectors and ( some are really using 512 byte sectors OR some are using 4K sectors ) can cause abysmal performance.
>
> Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 11 21:45:54 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 21:45:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112144580.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>

Follow-up: I read up on the ashift thing and it looks like the drives I'm 
using are NOT ones that lie about the physical/logical sectors. So I 
wouldn't need to ashift. Which is good because I'd have to rebuild the 
pool...

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:

>
> Bit flips like this helped me to discover that two of my 10 SATA cables were marginal.
>
> Since these are >2T drives, did you do anything with ashift? Depending on which ZFS implementation you're using, this question might not make sense?
>
> An array of drives where some are faking 512 byte sectors and ( some are really using 512 byte sectors OR some are using 4K sectors ) can cause abysmal performance.
>
> Thomas
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tlunde at gmail.com  Mon Nov 11 23:27:30 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (Thomas Lunde)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:27:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112108080.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112108080.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <FA9E573B-4DA6-4FE9-98C1-711EC14CF590@gmail.com>


All of the drives are in a single external enclosure?

How is that enclosure connected to the rest of the PC?  USB? (2? 3?) eSATA? FireWire? Something else?

If eSATA, then you may be having issues with a port multiplier. 

In any case, it's really hard to troubleshoot by guessing. So, if you'd like further help to address performance issues, maybe you could provide a full hardware and software description of the system. :)

Thomas

> On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:09 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> 
> No idea what most of what you said is, no (:
> 
> These are all identical drives, in an external enclosure, so none of it is my own SATA cables. And again, no errors when they were in a software RAID5 (though there were half as many drives) and nothing in the system logs, which is why I am concerned...
> 
>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Bit flips like this helped me to discover that two of my 10 SATA cables were marginal.
>> 
>> Since these are >2T drives, did you do anything with ashift? Depending on which ZFS implementation you're using, this question might not make sense?
>> 
>> An array of drives where some are faking 512 byte sectors and ( some are really using 512 byte sectors OR some are using 4K sectors ) can cause abysmal performance.
>> 
>> Thomas
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 11 23:37:32 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2013 23:37:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <FA9E573B-4DA6-4FE9-98C1-711EC14CF590@gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112108080.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <FA9E573B-4DA6-4FE9-98C1-711EC14CF590@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112333480.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>

Hehe. One external, 8-bay enclosure, using two SATA ports. The ports go 
directly to the motherboard - no additional controller. Server software is 
Ubuntu 12.10, with ZFS added on from the zfs-native PPA.

When I was using this as md-software RAID5, I had two disks in each half 
of the enclosure. No performance issues. Now this is 8 disks rather than 
4, and raidz2 (so RAID6) rather than RAID5, but still... hit play on a 
video and wait 6 seconds for it to start?... that's a bit... off. No 
errors except the three checksum errors I've had.


On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:

>
> All of the drives are in a single external enclosure?
>
> How is that enclosure connected to the rest of the PC?  USB? (2? 3?) eSATA? FireWire? Something else?
>
> If eSATA, then you may be having issues with a port multiplier.
>
> In any case, it's really hard to troubleshoot by guessing. So, if you'd like further help to address performance issues, maybe you could provide a full hardware and software description of the system. :)
>
> Thomas
>
>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:09 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>
>> No idea what most of what you said is, no (:
>>
>> These are all identical drives, in an external enclosure, so none of it is my own SATA cables. And again, no errors when they were in a software RAID5 (though there were half as many drives) and nothing in the system logs, which is why I am concerned...
>>
>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Bit flips like this helped me to discover that two of my 10 SATA cables were marginal.
>>>
>>> Since these are >2T drives, did you do anything with ashift? Depending on which ZFS implementation you're using, this question might not make sense?
>>>
>>> An array of drives where some are faking 512 byte sectors and ( some are really using 512 byte sectors OR some are using 4K sectors ) can cause abysmal performance.
>>>
>>> Thomas
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Nov 12 00:16:38 2013
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 00:16:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] CrunchBang Linux: great Debian stable derivative
Message-ID: <20131112001638.b2664f7162eb75e8ec240907@jasonhsu.com>

I've been using distros based on Debian Wheezy the last few years (in Linux Mint Debian Edition, antiX Linux, and Snowlinux), and it has really won me over.  Wheezy has LibreOffice in its software repository instead of OpenOffice (which Squeeze had), and several apps (like Keepass) seemed much more polished in the Debian Wheezy version than in the Debian Squeeze version.  I intend to stick with Debian Wheezy now that it has become Debian Stable.  (It's easier to keep Debian Stable up-to-date than Debian Testing up-to-date.)  Debian Wheezy as the new Debian Stable must have won over many other people as well, as it has climbed to #2 on Distrowatch over the past several months.

As a result, I've been looking for a Linux distro based on the new Debian Stable.  I'm trying out CrunchBang Linux in VirtualBox, and it's winning me over.  I have Linux Mint Debian Edition currently installed on my laptop, but I plan to switch to CrunchBang shortly.  I currently have Snow Linux installed on my desktop, and I intend to switch to CrunchBang here as well.

I first tried CrunchBang Linux a few years ago, but the lack of a DE turned me off.  I still don't like the default look and feel, but all I had to do was install LXDE to get my desktop.  (Given that CrunchBang comes with the OpenBox window manager, LXDE is the most logical DE.  ROX pinboard would work as well, but that requires some tweaking.)

In my opinion, CrunchBang Linux is the best distro under-the-hood.  Here are the advantages I see over its competition:
1.  Over LMDE: CrunchBang is lighter than LMDE, which is available only with MATE or Cinnamon.  Yet CrunchBang comes with codecs, which provide out-of-the-box DVD-playing capability.  CrunchBang's speed and memory-saving advantages would be greatly appreciated by anyone using a 10-year-old computer.  Remember also that LMDE is based on Debian Testing, so that means it requires more updates than CrunchBang, which is based on Debian Stable.  It also helps that CrunchBang 11 Waldorf is a much more central to CrunchBang than LMDE is to Linux Mint and thus seems to get better support.
2.  Over antiX: CrunchBang Linux plays DVDs out-of-the-box, but antiX Linux doesn't.  Also, keeping CrunchBang Linux (based on Debian Stable) up-to-date is much easier than keeping antiX Linux (based on Debian Testing and released only once a year) up-to-date.
3.  Over Puppy Linux: CrunchBang Linux has a MUCH larger software repository than Puppy Linux.  According to Wikipedia, CrunchBang offers up to 23,000 software packages, compared to only 700 for Puppy Linux.

Yes, LMDE, antiX, and Puppy offer a more polished and user-friendly default interface.  However, it's much quicker and easier to correct CrunchBang's weakness (just install LXDE) than it is to correct the weaknesses of LMDE, antiX Linux, and Puppy Linux.  With LXDE added on, CrunchBang Linux can be just as user-friendly and polished as its top competitors while blowing them away when it comes to the under-the-hood aspects.

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Tue Nov 12 00:47:07 2013
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 00:47:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] CrunchBang Linux: great Debian stable derivative
In-Reply-To: <20131112001638.b2664f7162eb75e8ec240907@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20131112001638.b2664f7162eb75e8ec240907@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <20131112004707.5d50471febc89ea5e05e8b33@jasonhsu.com>

By default, the LXDE desktop includes icons to all folders within your home directory, and you cannot remove a folder from the desktop without deleting it.  To correct this, follow the procedure described at http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=175&t=104518 .

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From lkateley at kateley.com  Tue Nov 12 08:54:37 2013
From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 08:54:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112333480.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112108080.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <FA9E573B-4DA6-4FE9-98C1-711EC14CF590@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112333480.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <5282412D.7050406@kateley.com>

There is a variable called zfs_max_vdev_pending. It sets the queue size 
for all disks. I only know the solaris well, but I know there is 
something similar in linux. It is set to 10 by default. You may want to 
up this to 2-5 per disk queue. With the 10, and 8 disks, it is pretty 
low. Maybe try 24. If this number is set too high you may see spiky cpu. 
The cpu will be managing the queue.

linda

On 11/11/13 11:37 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> Hehe. One external, 8-bay enclosure, using two SATA ports. The ports 
> go directly to the motherboard - no additional controller. Server 
> software is Ubuntu 12.10, with ZFS added on from the zfs-native PPA.
>
> When I was using this as md-software RAID5, I had two disks in each 
> half of the enclosure. No performance issues. Now this is 8 disks 
> rather than 4, and raidz2 (so RAID6) rather than RAID5, but still... 
> hit play on a video and wait 6 seconds for it to start?... that's a 
> bit... off. No errors except the three checksum errors I've had.
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:
>
>>
>> All of the drives are in a single external enclosure?
>>
>> How is that enclosure connected to the rest of the PC?  USB? (2? 3?) 
>> eSATA? FireWire? Something else?
>>
>> If eSATA, then you may be having issues with a port multiplier.
>>
>> In any case, it's really hard to troubleshoot by guessing. So, if 
>> you'd like further help to address performance issues, maybe you 
>> could provide a full hardware and software description of the system. :)
>>
>> Thomas
>>
>>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:09 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>>
>>> No idea what most of what you said is, no (:
>>>
>>> These are all identical drives, in an external enclosure, so none of 
>>> it is my own SATA cables. And again, no errors when they were in a 
>>> software RAID5 (though there were half as many drives) and nothing 
>>> in the system logs, which is why I am concerned...
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bit flips like this helped me to discover that two of my 10 SATA 
>>>> cables were marginal.
>>>>
>>>> Since these are >2T drives, did you do anything with ashift? 
>>>> Depending on which ZFS implementation you're using, this question 
>>>> might not make sense?
>>>>
>>>> An array of drives where some are faking 512 byte sectors and ( 
>>>> some are really using 512 byte sectors OR some are using 4K sectors 
>>>> ) can cause abysmal performance.
>>>>
>>>> Thomas
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From admin at lctn.org  Tue Nov 12 09:01:51 2013
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:01:51 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
Message-ID: <528242DF.3040807@lctn.org>

I run the following script to test if a host is on-line and trigger a 
back up if it's alive. Something apparently changed with the script and 
it is giving me a "unary operator expected" error for line 17.

Any ideas what is triggering it?



if [ -f /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt ];
then
      FILEDATE=`cat /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt`
else
      FILEDATE=0
fi

if [ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ];
then
      if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
      then
           echo "$HOST pinged ..."
           echo $NOWDATE > /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt
         # run backup script
          /etc/bacula/backup-host-1

      else
           echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
      fi
fi

exit

-- 
Raymond Norton
LCTN
952.955.7766

Sent from My Desktop


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Tue Nov 12 09:56:23 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:56:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] ZFS performance/error tolerance
In-Reply-To: <5282412D.7050406@kateley.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111529010.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52815E64.4030806@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111659180.7522@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <52816B5D.5050902@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311111814470.8209@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <C279D5BE-F286-42DD-B3B2-AC3295DC2545@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112108080.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <FA9E573B-4DA6-4FE9-98C1-711EC14CF590@gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311112333480.9096@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <5282412D.7050406@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311120951180.3892@cockerel.yaron.org>

On Tue, 12 Nov 2013, Linda Kateley wrote:

> There is a variable called zfs_max_vdev_pending. It sets the queue size for 
> all disks. I only know the solaris well,

Yeah... sadly I can't find anything about getting to that under Linux at 
all! Ironically I found some references to it on MacOS!

I'm actually just this close to nuking this thing and going back to 
md-sfotware RAID with xfs or btrfs. I just can't have 6 second delays when 
trying to watch a movie...



but I know there is something 
> similar in linux. It is set to 10 by default. You may want to up this to 2-5 
> per disk queue. With the 10, and 8 disks, it is pretty low. Maybe try 24. If 
> this number is set too high you may see spiky cpu. The cpu will be managing 
> the queue.
>
> linda
>
> On 11/11/13 11:37 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> Hehe. One external, 8-bay enclosure, using two SATA ports. The ports go 
>> directly to the motherboard - no additional controller. Server software is 
>> Ubuntu 12.10, with ZFS added on from the zfs-native PPA.
>> 
>> When I was using this as md-software RAID5, I had two disks in each half of 
>> the enclosure. No performance issues. Now this is 8 disks rather than 4, 
>> and raidz2 (so RAID6) rather than RAID5, but still... hit play on a video 
>> and wait 6 seconds for it to start?... that's a bit... off. No errors 
>> except the three checksum errors I've had.
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> All of the drives are in a single external enclosure?
>>> 
>>> How is that enclosure connected to the rest of the PC?  USB? (2? 3?) 
>>> eSATA? FireWire? Something else?
>>> 
>>> If eSATA, then you may be having issues with a port multiplier.
>>> 
>>> In any case, it's really hard to troubleshoot by guessing. So, if you'd 
>>> like further help to address performance issues, maybe you could provide a 
>>> full hardware and software description of the system. :)
>>> 
>>> Thomas
>>> 
>>>> On Nov 11, 2013, at 9:09 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> No idea what most of what you said is, no (:
>>>> 
>>>> These are all identical drives, in an external enclosure, so none of it 
>>>> is my own SATA cables. And again, no errors when they were in a software 
>>>> RAID5 (though there were half as many drives) and nothing in the system 
>>>> logs, which is why I am concerned...
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, 11 Nov 2013, Thomas Lunde wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bit flips like this helped me to discover that two of my 10 SATA cables 
>>>>> were marginal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Since these are >2T drives, did you do anything with ashift? Depending 
>>>>> on which ZFS implementation you're using, this question might not make 
>>>>> sense?
>>>>> 
>>>>> An array of drives where some are faking 512 byte sectors and ( some are 
>>>>> really using 512 byte sectors OR some are using 4K sectors ) can cause 
>>>>> abysmal performance.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thomas
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Nov 12 10:34:40 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:34:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9BmyDsBbpTQ7Q34AEkUJffs23vvaONq7hEjYryGmU9=ww@mail.gmail.com>

try quoting var refs, eg try changing each
if [ $foo -op $bar ];
to
if [ "$foo" -op "$bar" ];
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131112/b83f5b47/attachment.html>

From jake.vath at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 10:50:05 2013
From: jake.vath at gmail.com (Jake Vath)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:50:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
In-Reply-To: <528242DF.3040807@lctn.org>
References: <528242DF.3040807@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <CAMeWMmhCNTKsnHi0j0DJuZZPZsNswG4eUzNUFwiOf2VToqx2cA@mail.gmail.com>

Are you trying to run this as a Bash script with *#!/bin/bash* (or some
from of Bash)?
or are you trying to run this as a Bourne shell with *#!/bin/sh* (or some
form of Borne)?

-> Jake


On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org> wrote:

> I run the following script to test if a host is on-line and trigger a back
> up if it's alive. Something apparently changed with the script and it is
> giving me a "unary operator expected" error for line 17.
>
> Any ideas what is triggering it?
>
>
>
> if [ -f /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt ];
> then
>      FILEDATE=`cat /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt`
> else
>      FILEDATE=0
> fi
>
> if [ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ];
> then
>      if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
>      then
>           echo "$HOST pinged ..."
>           echo $NOWDATE > /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt
>         # run backup script
>          /etc/bacula/backup-host-1
>
>      else
>           echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
>      fi
> fi
>
> exit
>
> --
> Raymond Norton
> LCTN
> 952.955.7766
>
> Sent from My Desktop
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131112/d13b44aa/attachment.html>

From admin at lctn.org  Tue Nov 12 10:51:34 2013
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:51:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9BmyDsBbpTQ7Q34AEkUJffs23vvaONq7hEjYryGmU9=ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9BmyDsBbpTQ7Q34AEkUJffs23vvaONq7hEjYryGmU9=ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52825C96.8060005@lctn.org>

I tried that...

I get a different error then :

/is_host_alive: line 17: [: : integer expression expected



On 11/12/2013 10:34 AM, gregrwm wrote:
> try quoting var refs, eg try changing each
> if [ $foo -op $bar ];
> to
> if [ "$foo" -op "$bar" ];
>
> -- 
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-- 
Raymond Norton
LCTN
952.955.7766

Sent from My Desktop

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131112/92ec482d/attachment.html>

From admin at lctn.org  Tue Nov 12 10:53:12 2013
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 10:53:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
In-Reply-To: <CAMeWMmhCNTKsnHi0j0DJuZZPZsNswG4eUzNUFwiOf2VToqx2cA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <528242DF.3040807@lctn.org>
 <CAMeWMmhCNTKsnHi0j0DJuZZPZsNswG4eUzNUFwiOf2VToqx2cA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52825CF8.3030503@lctn.org>

Bash:

#!/bin/bash -x




On 11/12/2013 10:50 AM, Jake Vath wrote:
> Are you trying to run this as a Bash script with /#!/bin/bash/ (or 
> some from of Bash)?
> or are you trying to run this as a Bourne shell with /#!/bin/sh/ (or 
> some form of Borne)?
>
> -> Jake
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org 
> <mailto:admin at lctn.org>> wrote:
>
>     I run the following script to test if a host is on-line and
>     trigger a back up if it's alive. Something apparently changed with
>     the script and it is giving me a "unary operator expected" error
>     for line 17.
>
>     Any ideas what is triggering it?
>
>
>
>     if [ -f /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt ];
>     then
>          FILEDATE=`cat /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt`
>     else
>          FILEDATE=0
>     fi
>
>     if [ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ];
>     then
>          if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
>          then
>               echo "$HOST pinged ..."
>               echo $NOWDATE > /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt
>             # run backup script
>              /etc/bacula/backup-host-1
>
>          else
>               echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
>          fi
>     fi
>
>     exit
>
>     -- 
>     Raymond Norton
>     LCTN
>     952.955.7766 <tel:952.955.7766>
>
>     Sent from My Desktop
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> -- 
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-- 
Raymond Norton
LCTN
952.955.7766

Sent from My Desktop

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131112/a3b8dae7/attachment-0001.html>

From canito at dalan.us  Tue Nov 12 11:20:15 2013
From: canito at dalan.us (canito at dalan.us)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 11:20:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
In-Reply-To: <52825CF8.3030503@lctn.org>
References: <528242DF.3040807@lctn.org>
 <CAMeWMmhCNTKsnHi0j0DJuZZPZsNswG4eUzNUFwiOf2VToqx2cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52825CF8.3030503@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <20131112112015.Horde._gT9WnDLhvuJG1z1Uz8V6w1@mail.dalan.us>

When writing bash I make sure to standardize when validating.

I don't use double square brackets [[ unless using special validators  
that require this.

I would recommend that you use the double brackets throughout your script.

Also, when validating I take the extra step and use the following for example:

if ${variable} -eq 0 ]; then

Using the {} around the variable has a special meaning making use that  
only the value is expanded, and it works great.

When troubleshooting scripts I comment our every block making sure the  
results are what I want. Then, I am able to move forth.

Hope this helps.

Saul David Alanis

Quoting Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org>:

> Bash:
>
> #!/bin/bash -x
>
>
>
>
> On 11/12/2013 10:50 AM, Jake Vath wrote:
>> Are you trying to run this as a Bash script with /#!/bin/bash/ (or  
>> some from of Bash)?
>> or are you trying to run this as a Bourne shell with /#!/bin/sh/  
>> (or some form of Borne)?
>>
>> -> Jake
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org  
>> <mailto:admin at lctn.org>> wrote:
>>
>>    I run the following script to test if a host is on-line and
>>    trigger a back up if it's alive. Something apparently changed with
>>    the script and it is giving me a "unary operator expected" error
>>    for line 17.
>>
>>    Any ideas what is triggering it?
>>
>>
>>
>>    if [ -f /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt ];
>>    then
>>         FILEDATE=`cat /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt`
>>    else
>>         FILEDATE=0
>>    fi
>>
>>    if [ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ];
>>    then
>>         if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
>>         then
>>              echo "$HOST pinged ..."
>>              echo $NOWDATE > /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt
>>            # run backup script
>>             /etc/bacula/backup-host-1
>>
>>         else
>>              echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
>>         fi
>>    fi
>>
>>    exit
>>
>>    --     Raymond Norton
>>    LCTN
>>    952.955.7766 <tel:952.955.7766>
>>
>>    Sent from My Desktop
>>
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>    tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>>    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
>> believed to be clean.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> -- 
> Raymond Norton
> LCTN
> 952.955.7766
>
> Sent from My Desktop




From canito at dalan.us  Tue Nov 12 12:39:43 2013
From: canito at dalan.us (canito at dalan.us)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:39:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
In-Reply-To: <20131112112015.Horde._gT9WnDLhvuJG1z1Uz8V6w1@mail.dalan.us>
References: <528242DF.3040807@lctn.org>
 <CAMeWMmhCNTKsnHi0j0DJuZZPZsNswG4eUzNUFwiOf2VToqx2cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52825CF8.3030503@lctn.org>
 <20131112112015.Horde._gT9WnDLhvuJG1z1Uz8V6w1@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <20131112123943.Horde.XQ8ft0lRUxqIDbPJXyyHAA1@mail.dalan.us>

Script output:

-bash-4.1$ ./test.sh
+ '[' -f /tmp/test/ping_check.txt ']'
+ FILEDATE=0
+ echo 0

+ [[ '' -ne 0 ]]



Script:

-bash-4.1$ cat test.sh
#!/bin/bash

set -x

if [ -f /tmp/test/ping_check.txt ];
     then
     FILEDATE=`cat /tmp/test/ping_check.txt`
else
     FILEDATE=0
     fi

echo $FILEDATE


if [[ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ]]; then
          if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
          then
               echo "$HOST pinged ..."
               echo $NOWDATE > /tmp/test/ping_check.txt
             # run backup script
              /tmp/test/backup-host-1

          else
               echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
          fi
     fi


You need double quotes to get rid of that error, as far as my test  
results show.

SDA

Quoting canito at dalan.us:

> When writing bash I make sure to standardize when validating.
>
> I don't use double square brackets [[ unless using special  
> validators that require this.
>
> I would recommend that you use the double brackets throughout your script.
>
> Also, when validating I take the extra step and use the following  
> for example:
>
> if ${variable} -eq 0 ]; then
>
> Using the {} around the variable has a special meaning making use  
> that only the value is expanded, and it works great.
>
> When troubleshooting scripts I comment our every block making sure  
> the results are what I want. Then, I am able to move forth.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Saul David Alanis
>
> Quoting Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org>:
>
>> Bash:
>>
>> #!/bin/bash -x
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 11/12/2013 10:50 AM, Jake Vath wrote:
>>> Are you trying to run this as a Bash script with /#!/bin/bash/ (or  
>>> some from of Bash)?
>>> or are you trying to run this as a Bourne shell with /#!/bin/sh/  
>>> (or some form of Borne)?
>>>
>>> -> Jake
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org  
>>> <mailto:admin at lctn.org>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   I run the following script to test if a host is on-line and
>>>   trigger a back up if it's alive. Something apparently changed with
>>>   the script and it is giving me a "unary operator expected" error
>>>   for line 17.
>>>
>>>   Any ideas what is triggering it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>   if [ -f /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt ];
>>>   then
>>>        FILEDATE=`cat /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt`
>>>   else
>>>        FILEDATE=0
>>>   fi
>>>
>>>   if [ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ];
>>>   then
>>>        if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
>>>        then
>>>             echo "$HOST pinged ..."
>>>             echo $NOWDATE > /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt
>>>           # run backup script
>>>            /etc/bacula/backup-host-1
>>>
>>>        else
>>>             echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
>>>        fi
>>>   fi
>>>
>>>   exit
>>>
>>>   --     Raymond Norton
>>>   LCTN
>>>   952.955.7766 <tel:952.955.7766>
>>>
>>>   Sent from My Desktop
>>>
>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>   TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>   tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>>>   http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>>> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, and is
>>> believed to be clean.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>> -- 
>> Raymond Norton
>> LCTN
>> 952.955.7766
>>
>> Sent from My Desktop
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list




From admin at lctn.org  Tue Nov 12 12:49:57 2013
From: admin at lctn.org (Raymond Norton)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:49:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] empty variable error in script??
In-Reply-To: <20131112123943.Horde.XQ8ft0lRUxqIDbPJXyyHAA1@mail.dalan.us>
References: <528242DF.3040807@lctn.org>
 <CAMeWMmhCNTKsnHi0j0DJuZZPZsNswG4eUzNUFwiOf2VToqx2cA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52825CF8.3030503@lctn.org>
 <20131112112015.Horde._gT9WnDLhvuJG1z1Uz8V6w1@mail.dalan.us>
 <20131112123943.Horde.XQ8ft0lRUxqIDbPJXyyHAA1@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <52827855.7010707@lctn.org>

Thank you..... That worked !


if [[ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ]]; then
          if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]






On 11/12/2013 12:39 PM, canito at dalan.us wrote:
> Script output:
>
> -bash-4.1$ ./test.sh
> + '[' -f /tmp/test/ping_check.txt ']'
> + FILEDATE=0
> + echo 0
>
> + [[ '' -ne 0 ]]
>
>
>
> Script:
>
> -bash-4.1$ cat test.sh
> #!/bin/bash
>
> set -x
>
> if [ -f /tmp/test/ping_check.txt ];
>     then
>     FILEDATE=`cat /tmp/test/ping_check.txt`
> else
>     FILEDATE=0
>     fi
>
> echo $FILEDATE
>
>
> if [[ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ]]; then
>          if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
>          then
>               echo "$HOST pinged ..."
>               echo $NOWDATE > /tmp/test/ping_check.txt
>             # run backup script
>              /tmp/test/backup-host-1
>
>          else
>               echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
>          fi
>     fi
>
>
> You need double quotes to get rid of that error, as far as my test 
> results show.
>
> SDA
>
> Quoting canito at dalan.us:
>
>> When writing bash I make sure to standardize when validating.
>>
>> I don't use double square brackets [[ unless using special validators 
>> that require this.
>>
>> I would recommend that you use the double brackets throughout your 
>> script.
>>
>> Also, when validating I take the extra step and use the following for 
>> example:
>>
>> if ${variable} -eq 0 ]; then
>>
>> Using the {} around the variable has a special meaning making use 
>> that only the value is expanded, and it works great.
>>
>> When troubleshooting scripts I comment our every block making sure 
>> the results are what I want. Then, I am able to move forth.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Saul David Alanis
>>
>> Quoting Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org>:
>>
>>> Bash:
>>>
>>> #!/bin/bash -x
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11/12/2013 10:50 AM, Jake Vath wrote:
>>>> Are you trying to run this as a Bash script with /#!/bin/bash/ (or 
>>>> some from of Bash)?
>>>> or are you trying to run this as a Bourne shell with /#!/bin/sh/ 
>>>> (or some form of Borne)?
>>>>
>>>> -> Jake
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 9:01 AM, Raymond Norton <admin at lctn.org 
>>>> <mailto:admin at lctn.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   I run the following script to test if a host is on-line and
>>>>   trigger a back up if it's alive. Something apparently changed with
>>>>   the script and it is giving me a "unary operator expected" error
>>>>   for line 17.
>>>>
>>>>   Any ideas what is triggering it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   if [ -f /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt ];
>>>>   then
>>>>        FILEDATE=`cat /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt`
>>>>   else
>>>>        FILEDATE=0
>>>>   fi
>>>>
>>>>   if [ $NOWDATE -ne $FILEDATE ];
>>>>   then
>>>>        if [[ $CMD_RET =~ ", 0% packet loss" ]]
>>>>        then
>>>>             echo "$HOST pinged ..."
>>>>             echo $NOWDATE > /etc/bacula/ping_check.txt
>>>>           # run backup script
>>>>            /etc/bacula/backup-host-1
>>>>
>>>>        else
>>>>             echo "$HOST did not ping ..."
>>>>        fi
>>>>   fi
>>>>
>>>>   exit
>>>>
>>>>   --     Raymond Norton
>>>>   LCTN
>>>>   952.955.7766 <tel:952.955.7766>
>>>>
>>>>   Sent from My Desktop
>>>>
>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>   TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>   tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>>>>   http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> This message has been scanned for viruses and
>>>> dangerous content by *MailScanner* <http://www.mailscanner.info/>, 
>>>> and is
>>>> believed to be clean.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Raymond Norton
>>> LCTN
>>> 952.955.7766
>>>
>>> Sent from My Desktop
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

-- 
Raymond Norton
LCTN
952.955.7766

Sent from My Desktop


From john.a.frisk at gmail.com  Tue Nov 12 23:46:52 2013
From: john.a.frisk at gmail.com (John Frisk)
Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2013 23:46:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest this Saturday November 16th
In-Reply-To: <CAAvSaRoRezXuMTnH_VYMTBUwhjrbFqBtWD=_nwLvaQjGLZ6x5w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAvSaRoRezXuMTnH_VYMTBUwhjrbFqBtWD=_nwLvaQjGLZ6x5w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAvSaRpkXH+Z8u2ZZU23BSjGXfAs8M3yeCAfRnSYwkFMfmkmkw@mail.gmail.com>

Come join us this Saturday November 16th from 9AM to approx 5PM at TIES in
the Larpenteur Room for Installfest Ubuntu 13.10.  (Other varieties are
welcome as well) NOTE: the day change - the 23rd was not possible for
scheduling.

I will have a switch/wireless for direct cached Ubuntu 13.10 installation
as well as a few CDs to get machines booted.  Bring your machine you've
always wanted to make Ubuntu or bring your machine that is older Ubuntu and
upgrade.  You also might want to bring a network cable if you plan to plug
into the switches available.

See http://www.penguinsunbound.com for other details.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131112/1d2e8cb6/attachment.html>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Wed Nov 13 19:35:51 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2013 17:35:51 -0800
Subject: [tclug-list] Semi-OT: Anyone at AWS re:Invent?
Message-ID: <CADdM08rMLvt2=F+fWUXr=07sbpNwPY93UTQQ6h33mepNoJ9o4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hey all -

I'm currently at re:Invent, and was just wondering if any TCLUG list
members are here as well. If so, perhaps we can meet up!

Email me directly or you can find me on Twitter @erikanderson.

-Erik
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131113/23866bfa/attachment.html>

From nakorsakov at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 12:33:36 2013
From: nakorsakov at gmail.com (N K)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:33:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
Message-ID: <52851780.6@gmail.com>

I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
-- Nicholas

From lkateley at kateley.com  Thu Nov 14 12:38:43 2013
From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:38:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <528518B3.1030200@kateley.com>

get a power converter and a translation app on your phone. I didn't 
check to see if i had coverage on phone and was sadly without phone for 
a week. I did have internet so I had skype for my calls home.

lk

On 11/14/13 12:33 PM, N K wrote:
> I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
> What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
> -- Nicholas
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From stuporglue at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 12:39:59 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:39:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KV7V4mDWOTJbFu-oPPi_KQA0_Q4xosf2s9ZZh18AEUAOg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's what I do:

Prepare for a stolen or broken device (just in case, not because Italy is
terribly dangerous).

* If you're taking a laptop, back everything up before you go.
* Bring extra memory cards, and leave most in the hotel each day, if
possible.
* Back up your memory cards at the end of each day in case your camera gets
wet or stolen during the day.
* If you're planning on having internet access, consider backing stuff up
to the cloud or a personal server regularly.
* Waterproof cases for stuff if you're going to the beach.

--
Michael Moore


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:33 PM, N K <nakorsakov at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
> What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
> -- Nicholas
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131114/cb1f9a37/attachment.html>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Thu Nov 14 12:45:01 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:45:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <528518B3.1030200@kateley.com>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com> <528518B3.1030200@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311141241350.8926@cockerel.yaron.org>

I should note that most times nowadays you don't need a power converter - 
just an adapter. CHECK YOUR DEVICE, obviously, but most things now will 
take 110-240volts, so they'll work anywhere, but you still need an adapter 
for the local-style plug.

Other than that, if you plan on using your cellphone you might want to 
make sure it's an unlocked GSM phone. You can get a SIM card in Italy 
that'll be way cheaper than using your phone there with the American card.

Take only what you need, and try not to flash it all over the place. Might 
want to set up a VPN if you use a lot of American services that are 
blocked outside the US (like Netflix). Also for privacy.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013, Linda Kateley wrote:

> get a power converter and a translation app on your phone. I didn't check to 
> see if i had coverage on phone and was sadly without phone for a week. I did 
> have internet so I had skype for my calls home.
>
> lk
>
> On 11/14/13 12:33 PM, N K wrote:
>> I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
>> What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
>> -- Nicholas
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Thu Nov 14 12:43:32 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:43:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2T=9dVbtSxLdaJXMztexCCjT+Y1DVG1tdsdLR4uPK2dwA@mail.gmail.com>

GOOD Question-  Bring a USB charger that outputs 2 AMPS for faster charges.
 If you are renting a car bring a lighter charger as well.
What technology are you planning to bring?

  David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst









m.   651-472-5678
e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
 This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
proprietary
information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or
his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to
this message and delete this e-mail immediately.


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:33 PM, N K <nakorsakov at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
> What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
> -- Nicholas
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131114/f8ed3719/attachment-0001.html>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov 14 12:49:34 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:49:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311141241350.8926@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com> <528518B3.1030200@kateley.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311141241350.8926@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <42DD41A8-4D43-4C91-AFAB-80ABEBB3CD30@me.com>


On Nov 14, 2013, at 12:45 PM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> I should note that most times nowadays you don't need a power converter - just an adapter. CHECK YOUR DEVICE
+1

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Thu Nov 14 12:49:02 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 12:49:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311141241350.8926@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com> <528518B3.1030200@kateley.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311141241350.8926@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2Rr50Kq2U=kBd_V4AvF4Mh--ZOTC1fm=C5q5-THcHY6Rw@mail.gmail.com>

Yes very important and good point.  Check the transformer on all chargers.
 Should say  110-240 but you never know.

  David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst









m.   651-472-5678
e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
 This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
proprietary
information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or
his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to
this message and delete this e-mail immediately.


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:45 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> I should note that most times nowadays you don't need a power converter -
> just an adapter. CHECK YOUR DEVICE, obviously, but most things now will
> take 110-240volts, so they'll work anywhere, but you still need an adapter
> for the local-style plug.
>
> Other than that, if you plan on using your cellphone you might want to
> make sure it's an unlocked GSM phone. You can get a SIM card in Italy
> that'll be way cheaper than using your phone there with the American card.
>
> Take only what you need, and try not to flash it all over the place. Might
> want to set up a VPN if you use a lot of American services that are blocked
> outside the US (like Netflix). Also for privacy.
>
>
> On Thu, 14 Nov 2013, Linda Kateley wrote:
>
>  get a power converter and a translation app on your phone. I didn't check
>> to see if i had coverage on phone and was sadly without phone for a week. I
>> did have internet so I had skype for my calls home.
>>
>> lk
>>
>> On 11/14/13 12:33 PM, N K wrote:
>>
>>> I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence &
>>> Rome).
>>> What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
>>> -- Nicholas
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131114/48f91278/attachment.html>

From justin.kremer at gmail.com  Thu Nov 14 13:49:07 2013
From: justin.kremer at gmail.com (Justin Kremer)
Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2013 13:49:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC3D_thkN5U2SKtKQTZyrncX_a1ADHj6u5z+JCt1uw=dpXgehw@mail.gmail.com>

I would recommend not counting on wifi, especially anything free from
a motel you're staying at.  I was there a few years ago, and it was
dialup speed when it was available.
My electronic devices were 110-240 compatible, so just the standard
two prong european power adapter worked well.  The one I used most was
like this one: http://goeurope.about.com/cs/electricity/l/bl_electricity.htm
Know the language and don't carry a massive DSLR around your neck and
you'll attract less attention from potential thieves.  That applies in
most places. ;)
If you're interested in any other not tech related advice, feel free
to contact me off list and I can give you some more tips from my
experience.
- Justin

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 12:33 PM, N K <nakorsakov at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
> What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
> -- Nicholas
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From harlan at bloomenterprises.org  Fri Nov 15 08:05:12 2013
From: harlan at bloomenterprises.org (Harlan H. Bloom)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 08:05:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <27205511.1327.1384523031612.JavaMail.harlan@star8>

Be aware of the USA laws about bringing your stuff back into the USA.  The TSA *can* take your computers if they *think* they have a reason to do so.  Without a very good lawyer, you are unlikely to get anything back.

You may want to consider taking a cheaper computer, or rented computer, specifically for this trip just in case you have problems.  I haven't heard of any major cases recently, but a few years ago TSA were taking lots of personal laptops because TSA claimed people were "suspicious".  Very few of these people have since been proven to have been problems or threats.  I haven't heard if any of these people actually got their stuff returned.

Just be aware of what TSA can actually do - they like to try to justify themselves periodically and stupidly.

----- Original Message -----
From: "N K" <nakorsakov at gmail.com>
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Sent: Thursday, November 14, 2013 12:33:36 PM
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.

I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
-- Nicholas
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Nov 15 09:20:25 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:20:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <27205511.1327.1384523031612.JavaMail.harlan@star8>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
 <27205511.1327.1384523031612.JavaMail.harlan@star8>
Message-ID: <1335C2E4-ECBC-4ACD-B083-F61A02619D66@me.com>

With all respect, Harlan, that sounds ultra paranoid to me (you, not TSA).

If you?re so worried about it ship your gear back to you. I know many foreign travelers none of whom have ever mentioned that TSA confiscated their personal (or professional) equipment.



On Nov 15, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Harlan H. Bloom <harlan at bloomenterprises.org> wrote:

> Be aware of the USA laws about bringing your stuff back into the USA.  The TSA *can* take your computers if they *think* they have a reason to do so.  Without a very good lawyer, you are unlikely to get anything back.
> 
> You may want to consider taking a cheaper computer, or rented computer, specifically for this trip just in case you have problems.  I haven't heard of any major cases recently, but a few years ago TSA were taking lots of personal laptops because TSA claimed people were "suspicious".  Very few of these people have since been proven to have been problems or threats.  I haven't heard if any of these people actually got their stuff returned.
> 
> Just be aware of what TSA can actually do - they like to try to justify themselves periodically and stupidly.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131115/51ff4df5/attachment-0001.html>

From goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com  Fri Nov 15 11:23:41 2013
From: goeko at Goecke-Dolan.com (Brian Dolan-Goecke)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 11:23:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Installfest this Saturday November 16th
Message-ID: <5286589D.7030204@Goecke-Dolan.com>

Come join us this Saturday November 16th from 9AM to approx 5PM at TIES 
in the Larpenteur Room for Installfest Ubuntu 13.10.  (Other varieties 
are welcome as well) NOTE: the day change - the 23rd was not possible 
for scheduling.

I will have a switch/wireless for direct cached Ubuntu 13.10 
installation as well as a few CDs to get machines booted.  Bring your 
machine you've always wanted to make Ubuntu or bring your machine that 
is older Ubuntu and upgrade.  You also might want to bring a network 
cable if you plan to plug into the switches available.

See http://www.penguinsunbound.com for other details.

From erikerik at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 11:57:03 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 09:57:03 -0800
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <27205511.1327.1384523031612.JavaMail.harlan@star8>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
 <27205511.1327.1384523031612.JavaMail.harlan@star8>
Message-ID: <CADdM08r2_QzLis_d=WLi=TMpjJxHUSTkEfV2oqu77LYjx1fWXg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Harlan H. Bloom <
harlan at bloomenterprises.org> wrote:

> Be aware of the USA laws about bringing your stuff back into the USA.  The
> TSA *can* take your computers if they *think* they have a reason to do so.
>  Without a very good lawyer, you are unlikely to get anything back.


The TSA doesn't have jurisdiction at the border - I think you're thinking
of Customs and Border Protection.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131115/279e40eb/attachment.html>

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 13:45:05 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 13:45:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
Message-ID: <CABWFOjsNaZx0XVjSB2rhS1Eb+3aXeecAVr-=XwF9RaJg8D8FoQ@mail.gmail.com>

From: Erik Anderson

> On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 6:05 AM, Harlan H. Bloom <
> harlan at bloomenterprises.org <harlan at bloomenterprises.org>> wrote:
>
>> Be aware of the USA laws about bringing your stuff back into the USA.
 The
>> TSA *can* take your computers if they *think* they have a reason to do
so.
>>  Without a very good lawyer, you are unlikely to get anything back.
>
>
> The TSA doesn't have jurisdiction at the border - I think you're thinking
> of Customs and Border Protection.

I think Harlan's advice meshes with the earlier advice to
take only what you need and to use the cloud.  Not all
clouds are helpful though.  They've spent over 600 million
on healthcare.gov and they're spending tons more now to
"fix" it.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131115/99ce1688/attachment.html>

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Nov 15 14:40:32 2013
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 14:40:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
Message-ID: <rcyma4ql6prctctgxob7n5xw.1384548032641@email.android.com>

I've brought an entire server back into the USA in a checked suitcase once. Lots of trips over seas and the worst I've had is extra screening where my entire carry on is pulled apart and reassembled. Also seen notes left in my checked bags that the TSA performed an extra screening on that suitcase a couple of times.?

Only thing I ever lost was an old pocket knife I had in my jacket pocket I forgot to remove before going to the airport. They said I could toss it or rent a small locker.?

I've never had problems with laptops, tablets, or any other electronics.?

As for travel gear, I bought a universal power strip from Amazon that takes 110-240v power and each receptacle supports all major plug configurations so I can plug in my laptop, cell phone, access point, etc. Local folk can use it with their own native plugs. The power strip's own plug is standard US 3-prong so I only need one adapter for it in the country I am in.?






-------- Original message --------
From: Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> 
Date: 11/15/2013  9:20 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel. 
 
With all respect, Harlan, that sounds ultra paranoid to me (you, not TSA).

If you?re so worried about it ship your gear back to you. I know many foreign travelers none of whom have ever mentioned that TSA confiscated their personal (or professional) equipment.



On Nov 15, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Harlan H. Bloom <harlan at bloomenterprises.org> wrote:

Be aware of the USA laws about bringing your stuff back into the USA. ?The TSA *can* take your computers if they *think* they have a reason to do so. ?Without a very good lawyer, you are unlikely to get anything back.

You may want to consider taking a cheaper computer, or rented computer, specifically for this trip just in case you have problems. ?I haven't heard of any major cases recently, but a few years ago TSA were taking lots of personal laptops because TSA claimed people were "suspicious". ?Very few of these people have since been proven to have been problems or threats. ?I haven't heard if any of these people actually got their stuff returned.

Just be aware of what TSA can actually do - they like to try to justify themselves periodically and stupidly.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131115/093e1a5d/attachment.html>

From jazzyflute at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 14:52:20 2013
From: jazzyflute at gmail.com (Marc Thomas)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 14:52:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <rcyma4ql6prctctgxob7n5xw.1384548032641@email.android.com>
References: <rcyma4ql6prctctgxob7n5xw.1384548032641@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAMkrd9cP67dMoCRq2j3tR8fdYNe02fbbpjb5em0otPi-2QPv8g@mail.gmail.com>

Not really an electronic gear suggestion here, but check out
www.Scottevest.com. They specialize in travel clothing for electronics. I
have a few of their items and use them regularly for day to day life.
Anytime I travel to the cities (Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Louis, etc) I
ALWAYS wear a scottevest to carry, and protect, all my gadget (of which I
probably have to many).


On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 2:40 PM, Justin Krejci <jus at krytosvirus.com> wrote:

> I've brought an entire server back into the USA in a checked suitcase
> once. Lots of trips over seas and the worst I've had is extra screening
> where my entire carry on is pulled apart and reassembled. Also seen notes
> left in my checked bags that the TSA performed an extra screening on that
> suitcase a couple of times.
>
> Only thing I ever lost was an old pocket knife I had in my jacket pocket I
> forgot to remove before going to the airport. They said I could toss it or
> rent a small locker.
>
> I've never had problems with laptops, tablets, or any other electronics.
>
> As for travel gear, I bought a universal power strip from Amazon that
> takes 110-240v power and each receptacle supports all major plug
> configurations so I can plug in my laptop, cell phone, access point, etc.
> Local folk can use it with their own native plugs. The power strip's own
> plug is standard US 3-prong so I only need one adapter for it in the
> country I am in.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com>
> Date: 11/15/2013 9:20 AM (GMT-06:00)
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
>
>
> With all respect, Harlan, that sounds ultra paranoid to me (you, not TSA).
>
> If you?re so worried about it ship your gear back to you. I know many
> foreign travelers none of whom have ever mentioned that TSA confiscated
> their personal (or professional) equipment.
>
>
>
> On Nov 15, 2013, at 8:05 AM, Harlan H. Bloom <harlan at bloomenterprises.org>
> wrote:
>
> Be aware of the USA laws about bringing your stuff back into the USA.  The
> TSA *can* take your computers if they *think* they have a reason to do so.
>  Without a very good lawyer, you are unlikely to get anything back.
>
> You may want to consider taking a cheaper computer, or rented computer,
> specifically for this trip just in case you have problems.  I haven't heard
> of any major cases recently, but a few years ago TSA were taking lots of
> personal laptops because TSA claimed people were "suspicious".  Very few of
> these people have since been proven to have been problems or threats.  I
> haven't heard if any of these people actually got their stuff returned.
>
> Just be aware of what TSA can actually do - they like to try to justify
> themselves periodically and stupidly.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
Personal Website <http://mathomaste.ch>   :
Google+<https://plus.google.com/u/0/103260909450809151378/about>
 :   Twitter <https://twitter.com/mathomastech>   :
GitHub<https://github.com/mathomastech>
 :   LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/mathomastech>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131115/6b5f4846/attachment-0001.html>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 17:14:52 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 15:14:52 -0800
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsNaZx0XVjSB2rhS1Eb+3aXeecAVr-=XwF9RaJg8D8FoQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsNaZx0XVjSB2rhS1Eb+3aXeecAVr-=XwF9RaJg8D8FoQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08qigvpapdxc8WEd=SfLO0g4OR3PZM1wExOFPjZz65DmZg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Nov 15, 2013 at 11:45 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Not all
> clouds are helpful though.  They've spent over 600 million
> on healthcare.gov and they're spending tons more now to
> "fix" it.
>

That has absolutely *nothing* to do with the cloud, but rather lack of
diligence in development, test, and QA.

I just wrapped up attending the AWS re:Invent conference, where ~9k people
paid big money to come and learn better development, architecture, and
deployment techniques. If the cloud were magic, that wouldn't happen.
Though cloud architecture strategies look quite different than "legacy"
systems, a large portion of the skills carry over.

In fact, IMHO the patterns used to build highly-available, high-performing
applications in the cloud (whether a local cloud, Rackspace, AWS, whatever)
actually would be beneficial to employ when building bare-iron systems as
well, due to the extreme focus in eliminating SPOFs.

-Erik
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131115/5bcaaa2c/attachment.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 20:13:41 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 20:13:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311141241350.8926@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com> <528518B3.1030200@kateley.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311141241350.8926@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311152013060.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> I should note that most times nowadays you don't need a power converter 
> - just an adapter. CHECK YOUR DEVICE, obviously, but most things now 
> will take 110-240volts, so they'll work anywhere, but you still need an 
> adapter for the local-style plug.


I got a nice little collection of those adapters at Target for maybe $10.

Mike

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Fri Nov 15 20:25:46 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2013 20:25:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08qigvpapdxc8WEd=SfLO0g4OR3PZM1wExOFPjZz65DmZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsNaZx0XVjSB2rhS1Eb+3aXeecAVr-=XwF9RaJg8D8FoQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08qigvpapdxc8WEd=SfLO0g4OR3PZM1wExOFPjZz65DmZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311152017130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Re: cloud - you can't use it if you can't connect.  I'd bring a USB stick 
(more more than one, if needed) and always back up new files to it. Then 
keep the stick in your pocket, or somewhere safe, and not with the laptop! 
;-)

I like to connect to my home linux box sometimes, or to the one in my 
office.  Those machines can be my "cloud," too (but like Larry Ellison 
said, "cloud" is a funny word for a collection of big steel boxes).

If you have a box that you ssh to, be sure that you will be allowed to do 
so from Italy.  I use /etc/hosts.allow and /etc/hosts.deny to control 
access permission, and it is usually blocking almost anything outside the 
USA, so I have to change the settings when I'm leaving the country for a 
little while.

Mike

From me at bengentry.com  Sun Nov 17 09:23:00 2013
From: me at bengentry.com (Benjamin Gentry)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 09:23:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Tech prep for overseas travel.
In-Reply-To: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
References: <52851780.6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5288DF54.80005@bengentry.com>

Nicholas,
    If your cell phone uses GSM you might want to try and get it SIM
unlocked from your carrier. This would allow you to purchase a local
prepaid SIM so that you can get relatively economical cell service while
you are over there. Of course with a different SIM card your number
would be different as well. Another idea would be installing the
talkatone app with google voice, which should allow you to make free
phone calls when connected to wifi.
Have a great trip and return safely!
Ben


On 11/14/2013 12:33 PM, N K wrote:
> I'm heading to Italy in a week for a week-long vacation (Florence & Rome).
> What tech prep or tech travel tips would you suggest?
> -- Nicholas
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 555 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131117/d1b3d34e/attachment.pgp>

From trnja001 at umn.edu  Sun Nov 17 10:16:22 2013
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 08:16:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Elvedin Trnjanin has invited you to use Google Talk
Message-ID: <14117341.116269.1384704982592.chat@gmail.com>



------------------------------------------------------------------------


Elvedin Trnjanin has invited you to sign up for Google Talk so you can talk to each other for free over your computers.

To sign-up, go to:
http://www.google.com/accounts/NewAccount?service=talk&sendvemail=true&skipvpage=true&reqemail=tclug-list at mn-linux.org&continue=http://www.google.com/talk/service/handleinvite?p%3DO5ZVNkQBAAA.6RYcnZ8_ezGouIkHQzQLdY-xkaII5bdm_xvBtIgH02O7yAorqL9wqMVyMt_Z_1XX.OAvkxXQjlCzTigvhaJKRFg&followup=http://www.google.com/talk/service/HandleEmailVerified?ee%3DP5ZVNkQBAAA.fz7uOi_UXB9RFr4HXkkBsPtBJBER6v-69JrBzPEe7zc.i0E0r3U9wSY0QvFB2dlG4A%26p%3DO5ZVNkQBAAA.6RYcnZ8_ezGouIkHQzQLdY-xkaII5bdm_xvBtIgH02O7yAorqL9wqMVyMt_Z_1XX.OAvkxXQjlCzTigvhaJKRFg

Google Talk is a downloadable Windows* application that offers:
- Free calls over your computer anytime, from anywhere, and for as long as you want
- A simple and intuitive user interface for sending instant messages or making calls--no clutter, pop-ups or ads
- Superior voice quality through just a microphone and computer speaker
- Fast file transfers with no restrictions on file type

After signing-up, download Google Talk and sign in with your new Google Account username and password.
You can then begin inviting anyone you want to talk to for free.

Google Talk works with any computer speaker and microphone, such as the ones built-in to many PC laptops today,
as well as with wired and wireless headsets and USB phones. Google Talk also works across all firewalls.

Google Talk is still in beta. Just like with Gmail, we're working hard to add features and make improvements,
so we might also ask for your comments and suggestions periodically. We appreciate your help in making it even better!

Thanks,

The Google Talk Team

To learn more about Google Talk before signing up, visit:

http://www.google.com/talk/about.html

(If clicking the URLs in this message does not work, copy and paste them into the address bar of your browser).

* Not a Windows user? No problem. You can also connect to the Google Talk service from any platform using third-party clients
(http://www.google.com/talk/otherclients.html).

  

From trnja001 at umn.edu  Sun Nov 17 10:44:25 2013
From: trnja001 at umn.edu (Elvedin Trnjanin)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2013 11:44:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Elvedin Trnjanin has invited you to use Google Talk
In-Reply-To: <14117341.116269.1384704982592.chat@gmail.com>
References: <14117341.116269.1384704982592.chat@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMxm9diKu3-oa49rHYAsTyZJ5zaPM5Ok5mV4OznX6RCJKNYo_Q@mail.gmail.com>

No idea how this happened, sorry for the spam.


[snip]

>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131117/95fd39f7/attachment.html>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 18 00:20:37 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 00:20:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Update on my ZFS issues
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311180017230.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>

Ok, so I ended up nuking the whole thing and starting from scratch. 
Luckily I had only restored little enough data that I could back it up 
this time!

Anyway, I now have two separate... uh... I'm not sure what the technical 
term is. There's one pool but it has two raidz1 arrays of four drives each 
(I'd have preferred raidz2 but that would lose me about 4 terabytes). I 
did also create the array with ashift=12.

So far performance has been fantastic, and I've had zero errors, checksum 
or otherwise (knock on wood). The no checksum errors makes me think 
ashift=12 was a good idea.

Thanks to everyone who offered suggestions!

--

From canito at dalan.us  Tue Nov 19 17:23:23 2013
From: canito at dalan.us (canito at dalan.us)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 17:23:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
Message-ID: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>

Actually it could be any command that will work with an old version of  
HP UX, but peferably awk.

I have a text file with multiple fields seperated by a semicolon. For  
the nth field, I need to delete any number after the 3rd character.

I've come up with this line but it won't work since it isn't a fixed length.

awk -F";" '{gsub("...$","",$6);print}'

I feel that I am close to finding the solution, but need a bit of help.

(Sorry freakzilla, the message was meant for the list.)

Thanks in advanced,
Saul David Alanis



From eng at pinenet.com  Tue Nov 19 17:53:14 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 17:53:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <528BF9EA.80907@pinenet.com>

This probably is not helpful, but anytime I need to play with text files 
I use FreePascal.

FreePascal is compiled code, of course, so no script mess. If you need 
100 lines of code, it still compiles to one command name of your choosing.

And FreePascal has some special capabilities with text files and strings 
that seem to now be incorporated into even the Arduino "wiring" 
programming language. Some of that old stuff has re-emerged because it 
works very well. All I know is I can create my own functions, and not 
rely on what I think somebody else's functions do.

I doubt current FreePascal releases work on HP UX, but I bet HP UX had a 
Pascal that was quite nice.

canito at dalan.us wrote:
> Actually it could be any command that will work with an old version of
> HP UX, but peferably awk.
>
> I have a text file with multiple fields seperated by a semicolon. For
> the nth field, I need to delete any number after the 3rd character.
>
> I've come up with this line but it won't work since it isn't a fixed
> length.
>
> awk -F";" '{gsub("...$","",$6);print}'
>
> I feel that I am close to finding the solution, but need a bit of help.
>
> (Sorry freakzilla, the message was meant for the list.)
>
> Thanks in advanced,
> Saul David Alanis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From hpenner at gmail.com  Tue Nov 19 18:16:20 2013
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:16:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
Message-ID: <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>

Try printf.  This example would give you just the first 3 characters of
field 6 as your example intended:

awk -F ';' '{ printf( "%.3s", $6) }'

You've also got lots of options for controlling numbers if the fields are
numeric only...

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/An_Awk_Primer/Output_with_print_and_printf

-HP


On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 5:23 PM, <canito at dalan.us> wrote:

> Actually it could be any command that will work with an old version of HP
> UX, but peferably awk.
>
> I have a text file with multiple fields seperated by a semicolon. For the
> nth field, I need to delete any number after the 3rd character.
>
> I've come up with this line but it won't work since it isn't a fixed
> length.
>
> awk -F";" '{gsub("...$","",$6);print}'
>
> I feel that I am close to finding the solution, but need a bit of help.
>
> (Sorry freakzilla, the message was meant for the list.)
>
> Thanks in advanced,
> Saul David Alanis
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131119/757b5369/attachment.html>

From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Tue Nov 19 18:30:14 2013
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:30:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
 <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>

 

On 2013-11-19 18:16, Harry Penner wrote: 

> Try printf. This example would give you just the first 3 characters of field 6 as your example intended: 
> 
> awk -F ';' '{ printf( "%.3s", $6) }'

If you want to print out the whole row with field #6 modified, try this 

awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"}
 {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}' 

-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com
 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131119/cd47f392/attachment.html>

From canito at dalan.us  Tue Nov 19 19:07:13 2013
From: canito at dalan.us (canito at dalan.us)
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 19:07:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
 <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
Message-ID: <20131119190713.Horde.w2JKZYMf7NwGfYjPTfllxw1@mail.dalan.us>


Quoting Kathryn Hogg <kjh at flyballdogs.com>:

> On 2013-11-19 18:16, Harry Penner wrote:
>
>> Try printf. This example would give you just the first 3 characters  
>> of field 6 as your example intended:
>>
>> awk -F ';' '{ printf( "%.3s", $6) }'
>
> If you want to print out the whole row with field #6 modified, try this
>
> awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"}
>  {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}'
>
> --
> Kathryn Hogg
> http://womensfooty.com

Cheers everyone. The working solution for this is using Kathryn's example.

-Saul David Alanis


From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 00:16:46 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 00:16:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
 <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311200011090.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013, Kathryn Hogg wrote:

> If you want to print out the whole row with field #6 modified, try this
>
> awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"}
> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}'


Wow.  I love it.  I had no idea that I could do things like that with awk. 
The big revelation for me is that I can change a value in a field and then 
print out the line with that change.  That is really good to know.

I'm not sure what BEGIN does -- is it needed?  Same for the final 
semicolon.  I dropped them and it seemed to do the same thing:

echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"} {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}'
a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9

echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' '{OFS=";"} {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0}'
a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9

I didn't know substr() either, which is a good one.  I would have thought 
to use printf() but that is not nearly as good.

Mike

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 11:48:43 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:48:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
Message-ID: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>

That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-florida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines

"Had I known then what I know now, things would have been different."
Sebelius said.

A lot of people are thinking the same thing.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/58323b5a/attachment-0001.html>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 20 11:51:58 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:51:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>

Look, Brian, I'm happy to discuss how hard or easy it would've been to set 
up a website correctly. We can easily tie that into Linux.

But please, PLEASE leave politics and religion off the list.


On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Brian Wood wrote:

> 
> That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
> 
> http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-fl
> orida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
> 
> "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been different."?
> Sebelius said.
> 
> A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
> 
> --
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
> http://webEbenezer.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Nov 20 11:56:27 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:56:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>

AMEN.

:)


On Nov 20, 2013, at 11:51 AM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> Look, Brian, I'm happy to discuss how hard or easy it would've been to set up a website correctly. We can easily tie that into Linux.
> 
> But please, PLEASE leave politics and religion off the list.
> 
> 
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Brian Wood wrote:
> 
>> That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
>> http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-fl
>> orida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
>> "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been different." 
>> Sebelius said.
>> A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
>> --
>> Brian
>> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
>> http://webEbenezer.net
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From droidjd at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 11:57:40 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 11:57:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdywLczGWZDS02EAZ-J4hP3k4T_pDMCtz+Cgv1_d=Fvz5g@mail.gmail.com>

And here I was looking forward to a political discussion. ;-)

But seriously, as much as I love a good political discussion, I'm going to
have to agree.  Politics and religion really shouldn't be on this list.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:51 AM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> Look, Brian, I'm happy to discuss how hard or easy it would've been to set
> up a website correctly. We can easily tie that into Linux.
>
> But please, PLEASE leave politics and religion off the list.
>
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Brian Wood wrote:
>
>
>> That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
>>
>> http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-
>> sebelius-visits-south-fl
>> orida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
>>
>> "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been different."
>> Sebelius said.
>>
>> A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
>>
>> --
>> Brian
>> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
>> http://webEbenezer.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/d4a8be21/attachment.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 12:01:31 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:01:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] [OT] website development (was "No nines")
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311201154390.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Your political and religious promotional emails are obviously way off 
topic.  I think it would be interesting to hear any reasonably-informed 
opinions on what is going on with the HealthCare.gov website development 
project.  I read a couple of things last week that I found rather 
concerning, and then I did some more reading and made this page:

http://genetsim.org/ACA/

Unfortunately, by the time I got to the end I didn't really believe my own 
conspiracy theory anymore, but I posted it anyway because it's really just 
a collection of facts about what has been going on.  The thing that made 
me doubt that QSSI was purchased by United Health Group to sabotage 
HealthCare.gov is that CGI Federal seems to have done a terrible job, 
maybe worse than QSSI.  United Health Group might have wanted nothing but 
to be inside, to know exactly what was going on in real time.

The other thing that made me think differently was learning that United 
Health Group is paying off many politicians on both sides of the aisle. 
Obama has gotten plenty from them.

Mike


On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Brian Wood wrote:

> That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
>
> http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-florida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
>
> "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been different."
> Sebelius said.
>
> A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
>
> -- 
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
> http://webEbenezer.net

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Wed Nov 20 12:03:05 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:03:05 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2RT0w0w9+8T8GRJfx6UizZsMrDwT4d3VJ4p_AkXsdKc2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Ryan-  Please leave religious comments off the TCLUG forum.  I am offended
by your indoctrination to a higher being and may need to refer this to the
NAACP.  Brian-  Your cool with me.  If I dont want politics on TCLUG I will
simply ignore.

  David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst









m.   651-472-5678
e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
 This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
proprietary
information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or
his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to
this message and delete this e-mail immediately.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> AMEN.
>
> :)
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2013, at 11:51 AM, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>
> > Look, Brian, I'm happy to discuss how hard or easy it would've been to
> set up a website correctly. We can easily tie that into Linux.
> >
> > But please, PLEASE leave politics and religion off the list.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Brian Wood wrote:
> >
> >> That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
> >>
> http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-fl
> >> orida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
> >> "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been different."
> >> Sebelius said.
> >> A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
> >> --
> >> Brian
> >> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
> >> http://webEbenezer.net
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/8bc9ef99/attachment.html>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Nov 20 12:07:13 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:07:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <CAEN4z2RT0w0w9+8T8GRJfx6UizZsMrDwT4d3VJ4p_AkXsdKc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2RT0w0w9+8T8GRJfx6UizZsMrDwT4d3VJ4p_AkXsdKc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A1849D11-1F46-47F0-A9C8-928FB4026A38@me.com>

I didn?t think I needed to use <sarcasm>tags</sarcasm> when I was in all caps? Hmm.

I?m the furthest thing from a devout religious person. As Brother Carlin said: ?I was Catholic until I reached the age of reason.?	 :) [and now I?m done]
On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, David Nelsen <david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:

> Ryan-  Please leave religious comments off the TCLUG forum.  I am offended by your indoctrination to a higher being and may need to refer this to the NAACP.  Brian-  Your cool with me.  If I dont want politics on TCLUG I will simply ignore.  
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/e4d0ed28/attachment.html>

From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Wed Nov 20 12:10:47 2013
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:10:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311200011090.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
 <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311200011090.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <d68f315bc34a3f839bcf49b158264750@flyballdogs.com>

On 2013-11-20 00:16, Mike Miller wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Nov 2013, Kathryn Hogg wrote:
> 
>> If you want to print out the whole row with field #6 modified, try 
>> this
>> 
>> awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"}
>> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}'
> 
> 
> Wow.  I love it.  I had no idea that I could do things like that with
> awk. The big revelation for me is that I can change a value in a field
> and then print out the line with that change.  That is really good to
> know.
> 
> I'm not sure what BEGIN does -- is it needed?  Same for the final
> semicolon.  I dropped them and it seemed to do the same thing:

In awk, each statement is

pattern statement

where pattern defines which lines the statements are applied to.

BEGIN is a special pattern that is applied once before any lines are 
read.  My second line doesn't have a pattern so its applied to all 
lines.

> 
> echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"}
> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}'
> a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9
> 
> echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' '{OFS=";"}
> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0}'
> a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9

The difference here is that in the first case, OFS is set exactly once 
at the beginning of the script.  In the second, OFS is set for every 
line that is read from the file.  Its a bit wasteful but not too bad.

> I didn't know substr() either, which is a good one.  I would have
> thought to use printf() but that is not nearly as good.



-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Wed Nov 20 12:27:39 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:27:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <A1849D11-1F46-47F0-A9C8-928FB4026A38@me.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2RT0w0w9+8T8GRJfx6UizZsMrDwT4d3VJ4p_AkXsdKc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A1849D11-1F46-47F0-A9C8-928FB4026A38@me.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2S_HQVA0rNwoMan0s0R7AJciqZPn4CeDjW1xTN+W0Onig@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry  I was being sarcastic as well. Just having fun.  We are all good.

  David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst









m.   651-472-5678
e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
 This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
proprietary
information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or
his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to
this message and delete this e-mail immediately.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> I didn?t think I needed to use <sarcasm>tags</sarcasm> when I was in all
> caps? Hmm.
>
> I?m the furthest thing from a devout religious person. As Brother Carlin
> said: ?I was Catholic until I reached the age of reason.?  :) [and now
> I?m done]
>
> On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, David Nelsen <david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com>
> wrote:
>
> Ryan-  Please leave religious comments off the TCLUG forum.  I am offended
> by your indoctrination to a higher being and may need to refer this to the
> NAACP.  Brian-  Your cool with me.  If I dont want politics on TCLUG I will
> simply ignore.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/170a6c9d/attachment-0001.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 12:36:31 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:36:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <CAEN4z2S_HQVA0rNwoMan0s0R7AJciqZPn4CeDjW1xTN+W0Onig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2RT0w0w9+8T8GRJfx6UizZsMrDwT4d3VJ4p_AkXsdKc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A1849D11-1F46-47F0-A9C8-928FB4026A38@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2S_HQVA0rNwoMan0s0R7AJciqZPn4CeDjW1xTN+W0Onig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEFAusAktQHfT50LPcKWRidQTR_aRH-yC0ULD6uciuVYUQ@mail.gmail.com>

I disagree. We are all imperfect. It is only through su and sudo, and
obedience to root, that we may enter the kingdom of kernel space. Free your
unused memory and only then will you be saved.

EKM


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:27 PM, David Nelsen <
david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:

> Sorry  I was being sarcastic as well. Just having fun.  We are all good.
>
>   David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> m.   651-472-5678
> e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
>  This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary
> information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is
> addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or
> his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any
> dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If
> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by
> replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>
>> I didn?t think I needed to use <sarcasm>tags</sarcasm> when I was in all
>> caps? Hmm.
>>
>> I?m the furthest thing from a devout religious person. As Brother Carlin
>> said: ?I was Catholic until I reached the age of reason.?  :) [and now
>> I?m done]
>>
>> On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, David Nelsen <
>> david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ryan-  Please leave religious comments off the TCLUG forum.  I am
>> offended by your indoctrination to a higher being and may need to refer
>> this to the NAACP.  Brian-  Your cool with me.  If I dont want politics on
>> TCLUG I will simply ignore.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/3079e925/attachment.html>

From david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com  Wed Nov 20 12:39:47 2013
From: david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com (David Nelsen)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:39:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEFAusAktQHfT50LPcKWRidQTR_aRH-yC0ULD6uciuVYUQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2RT0w0w9+8T8GRJfx6UizZsMrDwT4d3VJ4p_AkXsdKc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A1849D11-1F46-47F0-A9C8-928FB4026A38@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2S_HQVA0rNwoMan0s0R7AJciqZPn4CeDjW1xTN+W0Onig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFAusAktQHfT50LPcKWRidQTR_aRH-yC0ULD6uciuVYUQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEN4z2QqUSGjyNfnsdhmfAjKfRACL=5=KwgzaRmUiUpZHvARYQ@mail.gmail.com>

LOVE IT Eric!!  Are we banned on TCLUG to discuss emotion?  Sorry in
advance if so

  David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst









m.   651-472-5678
e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
 This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or
proprietary
information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is
addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or
his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any
dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you
have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to
this message and delete this e-mail immediately.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> I disagree. We are all imperfect. It is only through su and sudo, and
> obedience to root, that we may enter the kingdom of kernel space. Free your
> unused memory and only then will you be saved.
>
> EKM
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:27 PM, David Nelsen <
> david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry  I was being sarcastic as well. Just having fun.  We are all good.
>>
>>   David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> m.   651-472-5678
>> e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
>>  This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary
>> information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is
>> addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or
>> his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any
>> dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If
>> you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by
>> replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I didn?t think I needed to use <sarcasm>tags</sarcasm> when I was in all
>>> caps? Hmm.
>>>
>>> I?m the furthest thing from a devout religious person. As Brother Carlin
>>> said: ?I was Catholic until I reached the age of reason.?  :) [and now
>>> I?m done]
>>>
>>> On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, David Nelsen <
>>> david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ryan-  Please leave religious comments off the TCLUG forum.  I am
>>> offended by your indoctrination to a higher being and may need to refer
>>> this to the NAACP.  Brian-  Your cool with me.  If I dont want politics on
>>> TCLUG I will simply ignore.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/c24257f8/attachment-0001.html>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Nov 20 12:43:36 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:43:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <CAEN4z2QqUSGjyNfnsdhmfAjKfRACL=5=KwgzaRmUiUpZHvARYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201150490.26654@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <11902986-D530-40A5-A5D3-597B9CA130B8@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2RT0w0w9+8T8GRJfx6UizZsMrDwT4d3VJ4p_AkXsdKc2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <A1849D11-1F46-47F0-A9C8-928FB4026A38@me.com>
 <CAEN4z2S_HQVA0rNwoMan0s0R7AJciqZPn4CeDjW1xTN+W0Onig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFAusAktQHfT50LPcKWRidQTR_aRH-yC0ULD6uciuVYUQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEN4z2QqUSGjyNfnsdhmfAjKfRACL=5=KwgzaRmUiUpZHvARYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2915944F-0C53-45B4-9F1A-7447CC50B998@me.com>

YES! NO! MAYBE!

Stupid voices in my head? all arguing with you? 

That?s great, Erik!

On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:39 PM, David Nelsen <david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:

> LOVE IT Eric!!  Are we banned on TCLUG to discuss emotion?  Sorry in advance if so
> 
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:36 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:
> I disagree. We are all imperfect. It is only through su and sudo, and obedience to root, that we may enter the kingdom of kernel space. Free your unused memory and only then will you be saved.
> 
> EKM
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:27 PM, David Nelsen <david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:
> Sorry  I was being sarcastic as well. Just having fun.  We are all good.  
> 
> 
> David Nelsen , Healthcare Technical Analyst
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> m.   651-472-5678
> e.   david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com
> This e-mail, including attachments, may include confidential and/or proprietary information, and may be used only by the person or entity to which it is addressed. If the reader of this e-mail is not the intended recipient or his or her authorized agent, the reader is hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and delete this e-mail immediately.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:07 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
> I didn?t think I needed to use <sarcasm>tags</sarcasm> when I was in all caps? Hmm.
> 
> I?m the furthest thing from a devout religious person. As Brother Carlin said: ?I was Catholic until I reached the age of reason.?	 :) [and now I?m done]
> 
> On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:03 PM, David Nelsen <david.nelsen at slingshot-hci.com> wrote:
> 
>> Ryan-  Please leave religious comments off the TCLUG forum.  I am offended by your indoctrination to a higher being and may need to refer this to the NAACP.  Brian-  Your cool with me.  If I dont want politics on TCLUG I will simply ignore.  
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/bc4322f7/attachment.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 12:50:00 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:50:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <d68f315bc34a3f839bcf49b158264750@flyballdogs.com>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
 <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311200011090.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <d68f315bc34a3f839bcf49b158264750@flyballdogs.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311201245590.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Kathryn Hogg wrote:

> On 2013-11-20 00:16, Mike Miller wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 19 Nov 2013, Kathryn Hogg wrote:
>
> BEGIN is a special pattern that is applied once before any lines are 
> read. My second line doesn't have a pattern so its applied to all lines.
>
>> 
>> echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"}
>> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}'
>> a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9
>> 
>> echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' '{OFS=";"}
>> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0}'
>> a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9
>
> The difference here is that in the first case, OFS is set exactly once 
> at the beginning of the script.  In the second, OFS is set for every 
> line that is read from the file.  Its a bit wasteful but not too bad.

Does that mean that with BEGIN it will run a little faster?

Did the semicolon at the end do anything?  As in "print $0;}"

Thanks, Kathryn!

Mike

From blutgens at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 12:51:41 2013
From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:51:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANoiwe5T=wve2yBFLLLtZTANs0j=gvOzDogakp2vFoTBWShBqg@mail.gmail.com>

*PLONK*

If we all still had killfiles you'd be in a SHload of them.


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
>
>
> http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-florida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
>
> "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been different."
> Sebelius said.
>
> A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
>
> --
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
> http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
Ben Lutgens
Linux / Unix System Administrator

Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
"I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
       -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/5fd17ed2/attachment.html>

From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Wed Nov 20 12:49:33 2013
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 12:49:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
Message-ID: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net>

I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks.  Through 
the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down to only one left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite a few of them are just 
mislabeled switches.

Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?

Thanks,

Chris Frederick

From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Wed Nov 20 13:00:43 2013
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:00:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311201245590.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
 <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311200011090.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <d68f315bc34a3f839bcf49b158264750@flyballdogs.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311201245590.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <a43938429a9c4200436484a85158ae1d@flyballdogs.com>

On 2013-11-20 12:50, Mike Miller wrote:
> Does that mean that with BEGIN it will run a little faster?

It should plus is more readable.  BEGIN is good for initializing things 
and its complementary pattern END is also useful.

> Did the semicolon at the end do anything?  As in "print $0;}"

I'm pedantic and always use statement terminators even if they aren't 
strictly required.

-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 20 13:35:58 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:35:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>

Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with this:

dpkg: error processing 
/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386.deb 
(--unpack):
  unable to create 
`/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-new' 
(while processing 
`./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'): 
No space left on device

So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on device.

Except there's plenty of space left on device:

   root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
   Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
   /dev/sda5       4.0G  1.8G  2.0G  47% /usr

In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close to full. 
Here are the 'real' filesystems:

   Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
   /dev/sda3       4.0G  1.2G  2.6G  32% /
   /dev/sda8       9.9G  151M  9.2G   2% /tmp
   /dev/sda1       504M   98M  382M  21% /boot
   /dev/sda7       4.0G  1.8G  2.0G  48% /home
   /dev/sda5       4.0G  1.8G  2.0G  47% /usr
   /dev/sda6       4.0G  455M  3.3G  12% /var
   /dev/sda9       2.0G   70M  1.9G   4% /usr/local

I can manually create the files it wants, too.

Anyone have any ideas?

--

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 13:39:29 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:39:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>

Maybe that .deb file is corrupt?

If you clear out your cache, or at least delete offending .deb file does it
re-download it and work?

--
Michael Moore



On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:

> Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with this:
>
> dpkg: error processing /var/cache/apt/archives/linux-
> headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386.deb (--unpack):
>  unable to create `/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-
> 56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-new' (while processing
> `./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'):
> No space left on device
>
> So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on device.
>
> Except there's plenty of space left on device:
>
>   root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
>   Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>   /dev/sda5       4.0G  1.8G  2.0G  47% /usr
>
> In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close to full.
> Here are the 'real' filesystems:
>
>   Filesystem      Size  Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>   /dev/sda3       4.0G  1.2G  2.6G  32% /
>   /dev/sda8       9.9G  151M  9.2G   2% /tmp
>   /dev/sda1       504M   98M  382M  21% /boot
>   /dev/sda7       4.0G  1.8G  2.0G  48% /home
>   /dev/sda5       4.0G  1.8G  2.0G  47% /usr
>   /dev/sda6       4.0G  455M  3.3G  12% /var
>   /dev/sda9       2.0G   70M  1.9G   4% /usr/local
>
> I can manually create the files it wants, too.
>
> Anyone have any ideas?
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/5329684e/attachment.html>

From tlunde at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 13:59:59 2013
From: tlunde at gmail.com (T L)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 13:59:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <CAE0VmCz7FReF9W_Rc4boDNbNQZRyD+tGBGiMsUFabVyd6eHCuA@mail.gmail.com>

I've been using old WiFi access points for this purpose.  Nearly all
of them will work as Ethernet hubs or Ethernet switches, even when
they start getting really flakey as APs.  There are a _lot_ of people
with them in their basements or junk drawers.  Many of them will let
you turn off their radios to save a few watts.

Thomas


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net> wrote:
> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've used for
> troubleshooting networking issues at different networks.  Through the years
> and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down to only one left.  Online
> searches find very few results, and quite a few of them are just mislabeled
> switches.
>
> Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust
> on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris Frederick
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 20 14:00:33 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:00:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201357120.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>

Should've mentioned, I did a clear, and it did re-download, same issue. 
When I try dpkg manually it does the same thing. dpkg-deb -c shows the 
files, dpkg-deb -x does extract them but I'm not sure how to parlay that 
into an install.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Michael Moore wrote:

> Maybe that .deb file is corrupt?
> 
> If you clear out your cache, or at least delete offending .deb file does it
> re-download it and work?
> 
> --
> Michael Moore
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>       Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with
>       this:
>
>       dpkg: error processing/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386
>       .deb (--unpack):
>       ?unable to create`/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-
>       new' (while processing
>       `./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'):
>       No space left on device
>
>       So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on
>       device.
>
>       Except there's plenty of space left on device:
>
>       ? root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>
>       In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close
>       to full. Here are the 'real' filesystems:
>
>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>       ? /dev/sda3 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.2G ?2.6G ?32% /
>       ? /dev/sda8 ? ? ? 9.9G ?151M ?9.2G ? 2% /tmp
>       ? /dev/sda1 ? ? ? 504M ? 98M ?382M ?21% /boot
>       ? /dev/sda7 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?48% /home
>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>       ? /dev/sda6 ? ? ? 4.0G ?455M ?3.3G ?12% /var
>       ? /dev/sda9 ? ? ? 2.0G ? 70M ?1.9G ? 4% /usr/local
>
>       I can manually create the files it wants, too.
>
>       Anyone have any ideas?
>
>       --
>       _______________________________________________
>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
> 
>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Nov 20 14:03:52 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:03:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <7B44F674-B5E3-440C-8126-CB5E1B468DF5@me.com>

I bought my two off of eBay a few months ago after inquiring on the list.

$10 each + $5 shipping.

On Nov 20, 2013, at 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net> wrote:

> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks.  Through the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down to only one left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite a few of them are just mislabeled switches.
> 
> Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chris Frederick
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 20 14:03:26 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:03:26 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201357120.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201357120.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201402020.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>

I should amend - dpkg-deb -x to /tmp will extract the files.

When I try to extract to root, I get:

tar: 
./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h: 
Cannot open: No space left on device
tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse: 
Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse: 
Cannot mkdir: No space left on device


etc, etc. Again, / is nowhere NEAR full. I have no idea where it's trying 
to find space and not succeding.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> Should've mentioned, I did a clear, and it did re-download, same issue. When 
> I try dpkg manually it does the same thing. dpkg-deb -c shows the files, 
> dpkg-deb -x does extract them but I'm not sure how to parlay that into an 
> install.
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>
>> Maybe that .deb file is corrupt?
>> 
>> If you clear out your cache, or at least delete offending .deb file does it
>> re-download it and work?
>> 
>> --
>> Michael Moore
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>>       Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with
>>       this:
>>
>>       dpkg: error 
>> processing/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386
>>       .deb (--unpack):
>>       ?unable to 
>> create`/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-
>>       new' (while processing
>>       `./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'):
>>       No space left on device
>>
>>       So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on
>>       device.
>>
>>       Except there's plenty of space left on device:
>>
>>       ? root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>
>>       In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close
>>       to full. Here are the 'real' filesystems:
>>
>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>       ? /dev/sda3 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.2G ?2.6G ?32% /
>>       ? /dev/sda8 ? ? ? 9.9G ?151M ?9.2G ? 2% /tmp
>>       ? /dev/sda1 ? ? ? 504M ? 98M ?382M ?21% /boot
>>       ? /dev/sda7 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?48% /home
>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>       ? /dev/sda6 ? ? ? 4.0G ?455M ?3.3G ?12% /var
>>       ? /dev/sda9 ? ? ? 2.0G ? 70M ?1.9G ? 4% /usr/local
>>
>>       I can manually create the files it wants, too.
>>
>>       Anyone have any ideas?
>>
>>       --
>>       _______________________________________________
>>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
>> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
>> 
>

From harlan at bloomenterprises.org  Wed Nov 20 14:38:53 2013
From: harlan at bloomenterprises.org (Harlan H. Bloom)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:38:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201402020.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201357120.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201402020.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <8895898.768.1384979921476.JavaMail.harlan@star8>

When you extract the package to /tmp, do a "du -sh <dir>" on the directory.  Obviously, replace <dir> with your actual directory and do not type the quotes.

Is the result bigger than what you have on /, or any other other file system?

----- Original Message -----
From: tclug at freakzilla.com
To: "TCLUG" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 2:03:26 PM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package

I should amend - dpkg-deb -x to /tmp will extract the files.

When I try to extract to root, I get:

tar: 
./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h: 
Cannot open: No space left on device
tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse: 
Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse: 
Cannot mkdir: No space left on device


etc, etc. Again, / is nowhere NEAR full. I have no idea where it's trying 
to find space and not succeding.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:

> Should've mentioned, I did a clear, and it did re-download, same issue. When 
> I try dpkg manually it does the same thing. dpkg-deb -c shows the files, 
> dpkg-deb -x does extract them but I'm not sure how to parlay that into an 
> install.
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>
>> Maybe that .deb file is corrupt?
>> 
>> If you clear out your cache, or at least delete offending .deb file does it
>> re-download it and work?
>> 
>> --
>> Michael Moore
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>>       Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with
>>       this:
>>
>>       dpkg: error 
>> processing/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386
>>       .deb (--unpack):
>>       ?unable to 
>> create`/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-
>>       new' (while processing
>>       `./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'):
>>       No space left on device
>>
>>       So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on
>>       device.
>>
>>       Except there's plenty of space left on device:
>>
>>       ? root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>
>>       In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close
>>       to full. Here are the 'real' filesystems:
>>
>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>       ? /dev/sda3 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.2G ?2.6G ?32% /
>>       ? /dev/sda8 ? ? ? 9.9G ?151M ?9.2G ? 2% /tmp
>>       ? /dev/sda1 ? ? ? 504M ? 98M ?382M ?21% /boot
>>       ? /dev/sda7 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?48% /home
>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>       ? /dev/sda6 ? ? ? 4.0G ?455M ?3.3G ?12% /var
>>       ? /dev/sda9 ? ? ? 2.0G ? 70M ?1.9G ? 4% /usr/local
>>
>>       I can manually create the files it wants, too.
>>
>>       Anyone have any ideas?
>>
>>       --
>>       _______________________________________________
>>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
>> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
>> 
>
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 20 14:58:45 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:58:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
In-Reply-To: <8895898.768.1384979921476.JavaMail.harlan@star8>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201357120.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201402020.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <8895898.768.1384979921476.JavaMail.harlan@star8>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201456001.27788@cockerel.yaron.org>

I tried all the Phantom Space tricks I know. Right now I think maybe it 
reached the max number of allowed files/symlinks, or something, because it 
DID really have enough space.

I ended up moving stuff out of /usr/src, getting it to install that 
package, then apt-purged some other stuff, moved the other stuff back and 
purged that, too.

Should be OK now... for a while...

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Harlan H. Bloom wrote:

> When you extract the package to /tmp, do a "du -sh <dir>" on the directory.  Obviously, replace <dir> with your actual directory and do not type the quotes.
>
> Is the result bigger than what you have on /, or any other other file system?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tclug at freakzilla.com
> To: "TCLUG" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 2:03:26 PM
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
>
> I should amend - dpkg-deb -x to /tmp will extract the files.
>
> When I try to extract to root, I get:
>
> tar:
> ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h:
> Cannot open: No space left on device
> tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse:
> Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
> tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse:
> Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
>
>
> etc, etc. Again, / is nowhere NEAR full. I have no idea where it's trying
> to find space and not succeding.
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>
>> Should've mentioned, I did a clear, and it did re-download, same issue. When
>> I try dpkg manually it does the same thing. dpkg-deb -c shows the files,
>> dpkg-deb -x does extract them but I'm not sure how to parlay that into an
>> install.
>>
>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe that .deb file is corrupt?
>>>
>>> If you clear out your cache, or at least delete offending .deb file does it
>>> re-download it and work?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Moore
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>>>       Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with
>>>       this:
>>>
>>>       dpkg: error
>>> processing/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386
>>>       .deb (--unpack):
>>>       ?unable to
>>> create`/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-
>>>       new' (while processing
>>>       `./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'):
>>>       No space left on device
>>>
>>>       So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on
>>>       device.
>>>
>>>       Except there's plenty of space left on device:
>>>
>>>       ? root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
>>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>>
>>>       In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close
>>>       to full. Here are the 'real' filesystems:
>>>
>>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>>       ? /dev/sda3 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.2G ?2.6G ?32% /
>>>       ? /dev/sda8 ? ? ? 9.9G ?151M ?9.2G ? 2% /tmp
>>>       ? /dev/sda1 ? ? ? 504M ? 98M ?382M ?21% /boot
>>>       ? /dev/sda7 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?48% /home
>>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>>       ? /dev/sda6 ? ? ? 4.0G ?455M ?3.3G ?12% /var
>>>       ? /dev/sda9 ? ? ? 2.0G ? 70M ?1.9G ? 4% /usr/local
>>>
>>>       I can manually create the files it wants, too.
>>>
>>>       Anyone have any ideas?
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
>>> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
>>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From sraun at fireopal.org  Wed Nov 20 14:29:23 2013
From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 14:29:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201402020.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201357120.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201402020.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <20131120202923.GA7552@fireopal.org>

You specified you could create the files yourself - was that in the
relevant directories?  Any chance you're out of inodes?

On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 02:03:26PM -0600, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
> I should amend - dpkg-deb -x to /tmp will extract the files.
>
> When I try to extract to root, I get:
>
> tar:  
> ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h:  
> Cannot open: No space left on device
> tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse:  
> Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
> tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse:  
> Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
>
>
> etc, etc. Again, / is nowhere NEAR full. I have no idea where it's trying 
> to find space and not succeding.
>
> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>
>> Should've mentioned, I did a clear, and it did re-download, same issue. 
>> When I try dpkg manually it does the same thing. dpkg-deb -c shows the 
>> files, dpkg-deb -x does extract them but I'm not sure how to parlay 
>> that into an install.
>>
>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>>
>>> Maybe that .deb file is corrupt?
>>>
>>> If you clear out your cache, or at least delete offending .deb file does it
>>> re-download it and work?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Moore
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>>>       Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with
>>>       this:
>>>
>>>       dpkg: error  
>>> processing/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386
>>>       .deb (--unpack):
>>>       ?unable to  
>>> create`/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-
>>>       new' (while processing
>>>       `./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'):
>>>       No space left on device
>>>
>>>       So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on
>>>       device.
>>>
>>>       Except there's plenty of space left on device:
>>>
>>>       ? root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
>>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>>
>>>       In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close
>>>       to full. Here are the 'real' filesystems:
>>>
>>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>>       ? /dev/sda3 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.2G ?2.6G ?32% /
>>>       ? /dev/sda8 ? ? ? 9.9G ?151M ?9.2G ? 2% /tmp
>>>       ? /dev/sda1 ? ? ? 504M ? 98M ?382M ?21% /boot
>>>       ? /dev/sda7 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?48% /home
>>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>>       ? /dev/sda6 ? ? ? 4.0G ?455M ?3.3G ?12% /var
>>>       ? /dev/sda9 ? ? ? 2.0G ? 70M ?1.9G ? 4% /usr/local
>>>
>>>       I can manually create the files it wants, too.
>>>
>>>       Anyone have any ideas?
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
>>> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
>>>
>>

> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


-- 
Scott Raun
sraun at fireopal.org

From sethmiller.sm at gmail.com  Wed Nov 20 15:56:49 2013
From: sethmiller.sm at gmail.com (Seth Miller)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 15:56:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Awk Help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311201245590.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <20131119172323.Horde.lDOJ4JP58dKKOjnIARYOUw2@mail.dalan.us>
 <CAE95qKzjX-0fmvZMHxKNwFnLrzHTRj4bjxRaoVhPJRD4ZVCgrQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <b48c7dcd40f614f6ce600744aca733de@flyballdogs.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311200011090.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <d68f315bc34a3f839bcf49b158264750@flyballdogs.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311201245590.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEueRAUptrd=srhpJOS5FtnDOYVQ=qz_-Wi4L8fiKV3TPA7Qsw@mail.gmail.com>

Mike,

You are correct. The semicolon is implied by the closing brace. In can also
be implied by a line feed in a script.

Seth




On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Kathryn Hogg wrote:
>
>  On 2013-11-20 00:16, Mike Miller wrote:
>>
>>  On Tue, 19 Nov 2013, Kathryn Hogg wrote:
>>>
>>
>> BEGIN is a special pattern that is applied once before any lines are
>> read. My second line doesn't have a pattern so its applied to all lines.
>>
>>
>>> echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' 'BEGIN { OFS=";"}
>>> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0;}'
>>> a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9
>>>
>>> echo "a;2; 3;4;5 ;abcdefghijk;7;8;9" | awk -F';' '{OFS=";"}
>>> {$6=substr($6, 0, 3); print $0}'
>>> a;2; 3;4;5 ;abc;7;8;9
>>>
>>
>> The difference here is that in the first case, OFS is set exactly once at
>> the beginning of the script.  In the second, OFS is set for every line that
>> is read from the file.  Its a bit wasteful but not too bad.
>>
>
> Does that mean that with BEGIN it will run a little faster?
>
> Did the semicolon at the end do anything?  As in "print $0;}"
>
> Thanks, Kathryn!
>
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/a420f033/attachment.html>

From lkateley at kateley.com  Wed Nov 20 16:05:27 2013
From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 16:05:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>

I just saw them on amazon for $11

On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick wrote:
> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've 
> used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks. 
> Through the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down to only 
> one left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite a few of 
> them are just mislabeled switches.
>
> Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few collecting 
> dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chris Frederick
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Nov 20 16:46:56 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 16:46:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] dpkg unable to install package
In-Reply-To: <20131120202923.GA7552@fireopal.org>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201330320.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAFE18KU_Qa11EO-4as=jiGhR2-rt49q1QEjOnuFBw0qavK01UQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201357120.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201402020.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <20131120202923.GA7552@fireopal.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311201646360.28021@cockerel.yaron.org>

I'm pretty sure that was it. Part of the problem where Ubuntu will upgrade 
kernels but won't automatically remove old ones...

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Scott Raun wrote:

> You specified you could create the files yourself - was that in the
> relevant directories?  Any chance you're out of inodes?
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 02:03:26PM -0600, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>> I should amend - dpkg-deb -x to /tmp will extract the files.
>>
>> When I try to extract to root, I get:
>>
>> tar:
>> ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h:
>> Cannot open: No space left on device
>> tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse:
>> Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
>> tar: ./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/mouse:
>> Cannot mkdir: No space left on device
>>
>>
>> etc, etc. Again, / is nowhere NEAR full. I have no idea where it's trying
>> to find space and not succeding.
>>
>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, tclug at freakzilla.com wrote:
>>
>>> Should've mentioned, I did a clear, and it did re-download, same issue.
>>> When I try dpkg manually it does the same thing. dpkg-deb -c shows the
>>> files, dpkg-deb -x does extract them but I'm not sure how to parlay
>>> that into an install.
>>>
>>> On Wed, 20 Nov 2013, Michael Moore wrote:
>>>
>>>> Maybe that .deb file is corrupt?
>>>>
>>>> If you clear out your cache, or at least delete offending .deb file does it
>>>> re-download it and work?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Moore
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 1:35 PM, <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>>>>       Ok, so I did an apt-get -u dist-upgrade, and it errors out with
>>>>       this:
>>>>
>>>>       dpkg: error
>>>> processing/var/cache/apt/archives/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae_3.2.0-56.86_i386
>>>>       .deb (--unpack):
>>>>       ?unable to
>>>> create`/usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h.dpkg-
>>>>       new' (while processing
>>>>       `./usr/src/linux-headers-3.2.0-56-generic-pae/include/config/pppoatm.h'):
>>>>       No space left on device
>>>>
>>>>       So yeah, it can't create that file because no space left on
>>>>       device.
>>>>
>>>>       Except there's plenty of space left on device:
>>>>
>>>>       ? root at tiger:/# df -h /usr/src/
>>>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>>>
>>>>       In fact there's no filesystem on this machine that's even close
>>>>       to full. Here are the 'real' filesystems:
>>>>
>>>>       ? Filesystem ? ? ?Size ?Used Avail Use% Mounted on
>>>>       ? /dev/sda3 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.2G ?2.6G ?32% /
>>>>       ? /dev/sda8 ? ? ? 9.9G ?151M ?9.2G ? 2% /tmp
>>>>       ? /dev/sda1 ? ? ? 504M ? 98M ?382M ?21% /boot
>>>>       ? /dev/sda7 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?48% /home
>>>>       ? /dev/sda5 ? ? ? 4.0G ?1.8G ?2.0G ?47% /usr
>>>>       ? /dev/sda6 ? ? ? 4.0G ?455M ?3.3G ?12% /var
>>>>       ? /dev/sda9 ? ? ? 2.0G ? 70M ?1.9G ? 4% /usr/local
>>>>
>>>>       I can manually create the files it wants, too.
>>>>
>>>>       Anyone have any ideas?
>>>>
>>>>       --
>>>>       _______________________________________________
>>>>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
>>>> Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
>>>>
>>>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> -- 
> Scott Raun
> sraun at fireopal.org
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Wed Nov 20 16:01:16 2013
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 16:01:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <86b909a804eaf6c25d120f21b00dc0ac@mail.usinternet.com>

 

I was recently looking for something similar and came across this
network tap, though it costs a bit more, $60 I think.


http://www.amazon.com/midBit-Technologies-LLC-10-100/dp/tech-data/B00DY77HHK/
[3] 

I was specifically troubleshooting an Ethernet flow control
problem and wanted a network tap (or hub) that would also duplicate the
flow control frames instead of the device itself interpreting them as is
the case in typical port mirroring in various switches. The creator of
this Shark Tap sent me one with a tweaked firmware to enable flow
control duplication for me and it ended up working perfectly for me and
I was able to get a switch hardware vendor to fix a bug in their code.


Now looking I see they are currently unavailable, which is too bad. I
hope they become available again soon as I was planning on ordering
another one or two as a spare. 

My point, besides sharing a nice
anecdote, you can additionally search for Ethernet network taps as well
as plain hubs. 

On 20.11.2013 16:05, Linda Kateley wrote: 

> I just
saw them on amazon for $11
> 
> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick
wrote:
> 
>> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs
that I've used for troubleshooting networking issues at different
networks. Through the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down
to only one left. Online searches find very few results, and quite a few
of them are just mislabeled switches. Does anyone here know where to
grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust on a shelf they'd be
willing to part with? Thanks, Chris Frederick
_______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List -
Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org [1]
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [2]
> 
>
_______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List -
Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



Links:
------
[1] mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org
[2]
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
[3]
http://www.amazon.com/midBit-Technologies-LLC-10-100/dp/tech-data/B00DY77HHK/
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131120/e5bde46e/attachment.html>

From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Nov 20 17:02:23 2013
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 17:02:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <C06BF8CA415F484683D846EC331D1F59@d830a>

I have 4 of the little Linksys 5-port switches that are missing 7.5v power
modules, plus one
Linksys 8-port switch missing its power module.     trade?

Chuck


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Linda Kateley
> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:05 PM
> To: TCLUG Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
>
> I just saw them on amazon for $11
>
> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick wrote:
> > I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've
> > used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks.
> > Through the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled
> down to only
> > one left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite
> a few of
> > them are just mislabeled switches.
> >
> > Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few
> collecting
> > dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Chris Frederick



From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Thu Nov 21 08:58:38 2013
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 08:58:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <86b909a804eaf6c25d120f21b00dc0ac@mail.usinternet.com>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
 <86b909a804eaf6c25d120f21b00dc0ac@mail.usinternet.com>
Message-ID: <528E1F9E.2090208@cdf123.net>

That looks perfect.  I'll see what I can find.

I've used gumstix devices before too, but those usually run over $200.  Looking more for the $20-$50 range.

Chris

On 11/20/13 16:01, Justin Krejci wrote:
>
>
> I was recently looking for something similar and came across this
> network tap, though it costs a bit more, $60 I think.
>
>
> http://www.amazon.com/midBit-Technologies-LLC-10-100/dp/tech-data/B00DY77HHK/
> [3]
>
> I was specifically troubleshooting an Ethernet flow control
> problem and wanted a network tap (or hub) that would also duplicate the
> flow control frames instead of the device itself interpreting them as is
> the case in typical port mirroring in various switches. The creator of
> this Shark Tap sent me one with a tweaked firmware to enable flow
> control duplication for me and it ended up working perfectly for me and
> I was able to get a switch hardware vendor to fix a bug in their code.
>
>
> Now looking I see they are currently unavailable, which is too bad. I
> hope they become available again soon as I was planning on ordering
> another one or two as a spare.
>
> My point, besides sharing a nice
> anecdote, you can additionally search for Ethernet network taps as well
> as plain hubs.
>
> On 20.11.2013 16:05, Linda Kateley wrote:
>
>> I just
> saw them on amazon for $11
>>
>> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick
> wrote:
>>
>>> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs
> that I've used for troubleshooting networking issues at different
> networks. Through the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down
> to only one left. Online searches find very few results, and quite a few
> of them are just mislabeled switches. Does anyone here know where to
> grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust on a shelf they'd be
> willing to part with? Thanks, Chris Frederick
> _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List -
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org [1]
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [2]
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List -
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1] mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> [2]
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> [3]
> http://www.amazon.com/midBit-Technologies-LLC-10-100/dp/tech-data/B00DY77HHK/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Thu Nov 21 09:01:21 2013
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:01:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <C06BF8CA415F484683D846EC331D1F59@d830a>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
 <C06BF8CA415F484683D846EC331D1F59@d830a>
Message-ID: <528E2041.4010809@cdf123.net>

If they were hubs I'd be interested, but switches won't broadcast traffic on all ports.  That and I've also got my own case of 
missing-power-cord-itus.

Chris

On 11/20/13 17:02, Chuck Cole wrote:
> I have 4 of the little Linksys 5-port switches that are missing 7.5v power
> modules, plus one
> Linksys 8-port switch missing its power module.     trade?
>
> Chuck
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org
>> [mailto:tclug-list-bounces at mn-linux.org] On Behalf Of Linda Kateley
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:05 PM
>> To: TCLUG Mailing List
>> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
>>
>> I just saw them on amazon for $11
>>
>> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick wrote:
>>> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've
>>> used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks.
>>> Through the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled
>> down to only
>>> one left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite
>> a few of
>>> them are just mislabeled switches.
>>>
>>> Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few
>> collecting
>>> dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Chris Frederick
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov 21 09:09:12 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:09:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528E1F9E.2090208@cdf123.net>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
 <86b909a804eaf6c25d120f21b00dc0ac@mail.usinternet.com>
 <528E1F9E.2090208@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <31097E82-D218-4806-B11D-5B0220EB4E92@me.com>

It would be nice if it were PoE, too.

On Nov 21, 2013, at 8:58 AM, Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net> wrote:

> That looks perfect.  I'll see what I can find.
> 
> I've used gumstix devices before too, but those usually run over $200.  Looking more for the $20-$50 range.
> 
> Chris
> 
> On 11/20/13 16:01, Justin Krejci wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I was recently looking for something similar and came across this
>> network tap, though it costs a bit more, $60 I think.
>> 
>> 
>> http://www.amazon.com/midBit-Technologies-LLC-10-100/dp/tech-data/B00DY77HHK/
>> [3]
>> 
>> I was specifically troubleshooting an Ethernet flow control
>> problem and wanted a network tap (or hub) that would also duplicate the
>> flow control frames instead of the device itself interpreting them as is
>> the case in typical port mirroring in various switches. The creator of
>> this Shark Tap sent me one with a tweaked firmware to enable flow
>> control duplication for me and it ended up working perfectly for me and
>> I was able to get a switch hardware vendor to fix a bug in their code.
>> 
>> 
>> Now looking I see they are currently unavailable, which is too bad. I
>> hope they become available again soon as I was planning on ordering
>> another one or two as a spare.
>> 
>> My point, besides sharing a nice
>> anecdote, you can additionally search for Ethernet network taps as well
>> as plain hubs.
>> 
>> On 20.11.2013 16:05, Linda Kateley wrote:
>> 
>>> I just
>> saw them on amazon for $11
>>> 
>>> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs
>> that I've used for troubleshooting networking issues at different
>> networks. Through the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down
>> to only one left. Online searches find very few results, and quite a few
>> of them are just mislabeled switches. Does anyone here know where to
>> grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust on a shelf they'd be
>> willing to part with? Thanks, Chris Frederick
>> _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List -
>> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org [1]
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list [2]
>>> 
>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List -
>> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> 
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> [2]
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> [3]
>> http://www.amazon.com/midBit-Technologies-LLC-10-100/dp/tech-data/B00DY77HHK/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131121/1edece6f/attachment-0001.html>

From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Thu Nov 21 09:09:38 2013
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:09:38 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <528E2232.60906@cdf123.net>

Only thing I find on amazon are switches.  Closest I've found was a Netgear EN104TP 4-Port 10 Mbps between $25-$100, but that's limited to 
10Mbps.  I was keeping that one in mind as a last resort.

Chris

On 11/20/13 16:05, Linda Kateley wrote:
> I just saw them on amazon for $11
>
> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick wrote:
>> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks. Through
>> the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down to only one left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite a few of them are
>> just mislabeled switches.
>>
>> Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Chris Frederick
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From lkateley at kateley.com  Thu Nov 21 09:12:27 2013
From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:12:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528E2232.60906@cdf123.net>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
 <528E2232.60906@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <528E22DB.2030404@kateley.com>

search on amazon for hub. I found one for $11

lk

On 11/21/13 9:09 AM, Chris Frederick wrote:
> Only thing I find on amazon are switches.  Closest I've found was a 
> Netgear EN104TP 4-Port 10 Mbps between $25-$100, but that's limited to 
> 10Mbps.  I was keeping that one in mind as a last resort.
>
> Chris
>
> On 11/20/13 16:05, Linda Kateley wrote:
>> I just saw them on amazon for $11
>>
>> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick wrote:
>>> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've 
>>> used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks. 
>>> Through
>>> the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down to only one 
>>> left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite a few of 
>>> them are
>>> just mislabeled switches.
>>>
>>> Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few 
>>> collecting dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Chris Frederick
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov 21 09:13:07 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 09:13:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] OT: Shopping for old tech
In-Reply-To: <528E2232.60906@cdf123.net>
References: <528D043D.7010407@cdf123.net> <528D3227.7060307@kateley.com>
 <528E2232.60906@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <7410C3BF-0597-46D7-92EE-B11DDA066DAC@me.com>

As I said earlier: eBay is where I got my two 10BT hubs (EN104TP).


On Nov 21, 2013, at 9:09 AM, Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net> wrote:

> Only thing I find on amazon are switches.  Closest I've found was a Netgear EN104TP 4-Port 10 Mbps between $25-$100, but that's limited to 10Mbps.  I was keeping that one in mind as a last resort.
> 
> Chris
> 
> On 11/20/13 16:05, Linda Kateley wrote:
>> I just saw them on amazon for $11
>> 
>> On 11/20/13 12:49 PM, Chris Frederick wrote:
>>> I used to have a stash of old 4 port 10/100 ethernet hubs that I've used for troubleshooting networking issues at different networks. Through
>>> the years and the multiple moves, I've dwindled down to only one left.  Online searches find very few results, and quite a few of them are
>>> just mislabeled switches.
>>> 
>>> Does anyone here know where to grab a couple, or have a few collecting dust on a shelf they'd be willing to part with?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Chris Frederick
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From stuporglue at gmail.com  Thu Nov 21 13:24:20 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 13:24:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recovering data from a Drobo?
Message-ID: <CAFE18KUPTNcFEpY==0v6pNt03ysNFbHf603CJnkLog7GPP7QNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Does anyone have experience recovering data from a Drobo storage device?

A friend's Drobo device is dying, one of the drives is likely on its last
legs and he's looking to get his data off of it.



I haven't done anything with Raid, and from Drobo marketing online I can't
tell if their "BeyondRaid" is real Raid or not.

If the Drobo is real Raid, what information would I need to get to figure
out the next steps to recovering the data off of a good drive?

--
Michael Moore
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131121/4458a441/attachment.html>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Nov 21 13:26:24 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 13:26:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recovering data from a Drobo?
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KUPTNcFEpY==0v6pNt03ysNFbHf603CJnkLog7GPP7QNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUPTNcFEpY==0v6pNt03ysNFbHf603CJnkLog7GPP7QNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AE95DBD0-A997-4D80-8EE1-9AE6A0083109@me.com>

I?m not convinced their implementation of RAID comes close to the definition of it so I refuse to purchase it. Give me a SAN any day.


On Nov 21, 2013, at 1:24 PM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com> wrote:

> I haven't done anything with Raid, and from Drobo marketing online I can't tell if their "BeyondRaid" is real Raid or not. 
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131121/b17e1f18/attachment.html>

From adam at askewview.net  Thu Nov 21 14:20:00 2013
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam Barthelemy)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:20:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] =?utf-8?q?Recovering_data_from_a_Drobo=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KUPTNcFEpY==0v6pNt03ysNFbHf603CJnkLog7GPP7QNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUPTNcFEpY==0v6pNt03ysNFbHf603CJnkLog7GPP7QNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4493d425980e4ab57e945dead70a50f9@askewview.net>

 From what I can tell from the few minutes of research I've done it 
appears that all of the RAID options their "BeyondRAID" uses supports 
some sort of redundancy (Single and dual depending on RAID type).

If a single drive is dying and the other one is healthy he should be 
able to just replace the dying drive and allow parity to rebuild or the 
disk to re-mirror.

If he is concerned about data loss I'd grab an external USB drive and 
rsync the data between the Drobo and the external to have a backup copy 
in case things do not go well during the rebuild.

If the array is toast then you're most likely looking at some sort of 
professional recovery service unless Drobo support has suggestions on 
how to get the array back online read-only to recover the data.

One thing to always keep in mind: RAID is not a backup.  I've had to 
state this too many times recently.  While it prevents data loss from a 
disk failure (or multiple failures) it is not an excuse not to have a 
good backup.

--Adam


On 2013-11-21 13:24, Michael Moore wrote:
> Does anyone have experience recovering data from a Drobo storage 
> device??
> 
> A friend's Drobo device is dying, one of the drives is likely on its
> last legs and he's looking to get his data off of it.?
> 
> I haven't done anything with Raid, and from Drobo marketing online I
> can't tell if their "BeyondRaid" is real Raid or not.?
> 
> If the Drobo is real Raid, what information would I need to get to
> figure out the next steps to recovering the data off of a good drive??
> 
> --
> Michael Moore
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Thu Nov 21 14:56:31 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 14:56:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Recovering data from a Drobo?
In-Reply-To: <4493d425980e4ab57e945dead70a50f9@askewview.net>
References: <CAFE18KUPTNcFEpY==0v6pNt03ysNFbHf603CJnkLog7GPP7QNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4493d425980e4ab57e945dead70a50f9@askewview.net>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KXPCya8cdCLKY7R9nnMp60mdKGwrgct9GH0gbDTzRDNVg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 21, 2013 at 2:20 PM, Adam Barthelemy <adam at askewview.net> wrote:

> From what I can tell from the few minutes of research I've done it appears
> that all of the RAID options their "BeyondRAID" uses supports some sort of
> redundancy (Single and dual depending on RAID type).
>
> If a single drive is dying and the other one is healthy he should be able
> to just replace the dying drive and allow parity to rebuild or the disk to
> re-mirror.
>

His Drobo died and he bought a replacement, but when he transferred the
drives to the new Drobo it started spitting out errors and Drobo support
indicated that one of the disks was giving errors. Since the new Drobo
hasn't yet finished its initial setup process if he replaces the dying
drive it aborts, saying initial setup hasn't been run yet.


If he is concerned about data loss I'd grab an external USB drive and rsync
> the data between the Drobo and the external to have a backup copy in case
> things do not go well during the rebuild.
>
> If the array is toast then you're most likely looking at some sort of
> professional recovery service unless Drobo support has suggestions on how
> to get the array back online read-only to recover the data.
>

Drobo will do it for several hundred dollars, and he has gotten a quote
from a pro recovery place. As you can imagine, the cost is quite a bit
more.

One thing to always keep in mind: RAID is not a backup.  I've had to state
> this too many times recently.  While it prevents data loss from a disk
> failure (or multiple failures) it is not an excuse not to have a good
> backup.
>

Yup, and he knew it too. He had treated it as a big network disk, and has
fully acknowledged that he was too lazy to get proper backups set up.

Maybe I'll try imaging the bad disk to a new disk and if that doesn't work,
I'll tell him cough up the money for the Drobo recovery.

--
Michael Moore



> --Adam
>
>
>
> On 2013-11-21 13:24, Michael Moore wrote:
>
>> Does anyone have experience recovering data from a Drobo storage device?
>>
>> A friend's Drobo device is dying, one of the drives is likely on its
>> last legs and he's looking to get his data off of it.
>>
>> I haven't done anything with Raid, and from Drobo marketing online I
>> can't tell if their "BeyondRaid" is real Raid or not.
>>
>> If the Drobo is real Raid, what information would I need to get to
>> figure out the next steps to recovering the data off of a good drive?
>>
>> --
>> Michael Moore
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Support the digitization of the Iron County Miner newspaper archives
Like this project on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/digitizeicm
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131121/8cbf736f/attachment.html>

From adam at askewview.net  Thu Nov 21 16:13:04 2013
From: adam at askewview.net (Adam Barthelemy)
Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 16:13:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] =?utf-8?q?Recovering_data_from_a_Drobo=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KXPCya8cdCLKY7R9nnMp60mdKGwrgct9GH0gbDTzRDNVg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFE18KUPTNcFEpY==0v6pNt03ysNFbHf603CJnkLog7GPP7QNQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4493d425980e4ab57e945dead70a50f9@askewview.net>
 <CAFE18KXPCya8cdCLKY7R9nnMp60mdKGwrgct9GH0gbDTzRDNVg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25cbae60e2be6204278d81ce1c468cdb@askewview.net>


> Maybe I'll try imaging the bad disk to a new disk and if that doesn't
> work, I'll tell him cough up the money for the Drobo recovery.

Ahh.  Understandable now.  Depending on the data a few hundred isn't 
bad VS having to go to OnTrack.

And I know how he feels I've been bit by it too with a cheapy RAID 
card.  Thankfully I didn't lose too much data.

--Adam

From jima at beer.tclug.org  Sat Nov 23 23:25:49 2013
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 22:25:49 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <CANoiwe5T=wve2yBFLLLtZTANs0j=gvOzDogakp2vFoTBWShBqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANoiwe5T=wve2yBFLLLtZTANs0j=gvOzDogakp2vFoTBWShBqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52918DDD.7080404@beer.tclug.org>

  Could be worse, he could repeatedly piss off the better part of the 
list with his antics.

  Oh.  Right: 
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2010-November/059207.html

  Hey Brian, mind keeping this garbage off the list?  The only 
polarizing discussions we want are technical ones.

      Jima

(speaking in a semi-official capacity)

On 2013-11-20 11:51, Ben wrote:
> *PLONK*
>
> If we all still had killfiles you'd be in a SHload of them.
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com
> <mailto:woodbrian77 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
>     That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
>
>     http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-florida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
>
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
>
>     "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been
>     different."  Sebelius said.
>
>     A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
>
>     --
>     Brian
>     Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
>     http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
>
> --
> Ben Lutgens
> Linux / Unix System Administrator
>
> Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
> "I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
>         -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


From ryanjcole at me.com  Sat Nov 23 23:46:21 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 23 Nov 2013 23:46:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <52918DDD.7080404@beer.tclug.org>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANoiwe5T=wve2yBFLLLtZTANs0j=gvOzDogakp2vFoTBWShBqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52918DDD.7080404@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <39224C0D-5A44-491F-B576-4A55273E6C65@me.com>

I remember that nightmare. 

Thank you, Jima. 

> On Nov 23, 2013, at 23:25, Jima <jima at beer.tclug.org> wrote:
> 
> Could be worse, he could repeatedly piss off the better part of the list with his antics.
> 
> Oh.  Right: http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2010-November/059207.html
> 
> Hey Brian, mind keeping this garbage off the list?  The only polarizing discussions we want are technical ones.
> 
>     Jima
> 
> (speaking in a semi-official capacity)
> 
>> On 2013-11-20 11:51, Ben wrote:
>> *PLONK*
>> 
>> If we all still had killfiles you'd be in a SHload of them.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:woodbrian77 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>    That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
>> 
>>    http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-florida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
>> 
>>    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
>> 
>>    "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been
>>    different."  Sebelius said.
>> 
>>    A lot of people are thinking the same thing.
>> 
>>    --
>>    Brian
>>    Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
>>    http://webEbenezer.net
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>    _______________________________________________
>>    TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>    tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>>    http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Ben Lutgens
>> Linux / Unix System Administrator
>> 
>> Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
>> "I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
>>        -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From zarhooie at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 01:06:49 2013
From: zarhooie at gmail.com (Kat Toomajian)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 01:06:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues
Message-ID: <CAEeVNhK+QbkWeXKELc-pXmEZ__hsduUU+CTo=jd2cmuMMwXnXg@mail.gmail.com>

Hello, folks. :)

I had a CATAstrophe this evening where my friend's cat did the two-step on
my keyboard. Somewhere in her keyboard smash, she managed to do something
really funky with the desktop. As far as I can tell, she managed to
uninstall Cinnamon, or at least break it to the point where I can't do
anything with it.

I have tried restarting the computer, and also Cinnamon via the run
cinnamon --restart command. Nothing has any effect. I am backing up data in
case the final answer is to reinstall the OS, but I am hopeful that won't
have to happen. I am especially hopeful because I am supposed to be
mentoring newbie devs tomorrow in the mysterious ways of "documenting your
code" and I kind of need to be online for that.

Anyone have any ideas? I am stumped.

Kat
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/4640fbd0/attachment.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 01:24:24 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 01:24:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] No nines
In-Reply-To: <52918DDD.7080404@beer.tclug.org>
References: <CABWFOjsn5Gqw0Win5Qox1a5CccwvYvD5rfcqqbkim13cdmSBsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANoiwe5T=wve2yBFLLLtZTANs0j=gvOzDogakp2vFoTBWShBqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <52918DDD.7080404@beer.tclug.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311240123130.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I reported him to the State AG for that one.  I remember that she wrote 
back but I don't remember what she did.

Mike


On Sat, 23 Nov 2013, Jima wrote:

> Could be worse, he could repeatedly piss off the better part of the list 
> with his antics.
>
> Oh.  Right: 
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2010-November/059207.html
>
> Hey Brian, mind keeping this garbage off the list?  The only polarizing 
> discussions we want are technical ones.
>
>     Jima
>
> (speaking in a semi-official capacity)
>
> On 2013-11-20 11:51, Ben wrote:
>> *PLONK*
>> 
>> If we all still had killfiles you'd be in a SHload of them.
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 11:48 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com
>> <mailto:woodbrian77 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> 
>>
>>     That's my new name for Obama - President No-nines.
>>
>>     http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/19/hhs-secretary-sebelius-visits-south-florida-to-meet-with-healthcare-navigators/
>>
>>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_nines
>>
>>     "Had I known then what I know now, things would have been
>>     different."  Sebelius said.
>>
>>     A lot of people are thinking the same thing.

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Sun Nov 24 02:44:04 2013
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 02:44:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9AbhK80+uOLRrjgFA54S+LBH-8k6UkxoziZaOJihzMM_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEeVNhK+QbkWeXKELc-pXmEZ__hsduUU+CTo=jd2cmuMMwXnXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD+dB9AbhK80+uOLRrjgFA54S+LBH-8k6UkxoziZaOJihzMM_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9Ah1t5n7NbhCf-9yBfrCVs5t=F==Hacs7-H9zJX9oSBwA@mail.gmail.com>

due to dealing with such shenanigans my box has numerous partitions
installed with various flavors of linux, any of which can be brought up if
another one fails in some way.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/ea0289c7/attachment.html>

From pj.world at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 24 03:09:17 2013
From: pj.world at hotmail.com (paul g)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 03:09:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9Ah1t5n7NbhCf-9yBfrCVs5t=F==Hacs7-H9zJX9oSBwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEeVNhK+QbkWeXKELc-pXmEZ__hsduUU+CTo=jd2cmuMMwXnXg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAD+dB9AbhK80+uOLRrjgFA54S+LBH-8k6UkxoziZaOJihzMM_Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAD+dB9Ah1t5n7NbhCf-9yBfrCVs5t=F==Hacs7-H9zJX9oSBwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY175-W21D13E649CCE5F95D4B07999E20@phx.gbl>

Linux Mint 13 Nadia brought the same issues apparently I need to learn how to modify grub. Of course people smarter than me only type code and never deal with permission issues and play in their fancy fake lives. I think it's humour not on you of course sire. The whole fact of absolute jerks here.

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 02:44:04 -0600
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues

due to dealing with such shenanigans my box has numerous partitions installed with various flavors of linux, any of which can be brought up if another one fails in some way.


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/c4db6d94/attachment.html>

From pj.world at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 24 03:11:37 2013
From: pj.world at hotmail.com (paul g)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 03:11:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9Ah1t5n7NbhCf-9yBfrCVs5t=F==Hacs7-H9zJX9oSBwA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEeVNhK+QbkWeXKELc-pXmEZ__hsduUU+CTo=jd2cmuMMwXnXg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAD+dB9AbhK80+uOLRrjgFA54S+LBH-8k6UkxoziZaOJihzMM_Q@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAD+dB9Ah1t5n7NbhCf-9yBfrCVs5t=F==Hacs7-H9zJX9oSBwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY175-W215BB37894AE9A69ADCF2B99E20@phx.gbl>

TClug is a linux hack shop for arrogant programmers etc to play off pretending to be a part of unix. I hope they enjoy my comments this evening because to be honest I am not a scam artist or arrogant a-hole like them.

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 02:44:04 -0600
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues

due to dealing with such shenanigans my box has numerous partitions installed with various flavors of linux, any of which can be brought up if another one fails in some way.


_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/45b8ca37/attachment-0001.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 08:17:07 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 08:17:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
Message-ID: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>

I am setting up a new domain, and have to get SSL going on a couple of
hostnames, for both HTTPS, IMAPs, and SMTP.

Can anyone tell me if one wildcard SSL certificate will do the trick?

-Erik

-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From robert at hutman.net  Sun Nov 24 09:27:56 2013
From: robert at hutman.net (Robert Radtke)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 09:27:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOJEbNYNyA+x-SweW5RGGMaBA5GYUY6PbtPUOwGwekg=C2Q-9A@mail.gmail.com>

I purchased a geotrust wildcard SSL cert and was able to use it with exim /
uwimap and apache without any errors from Thunderbird or an iPhone.
Unless outlook has some weird SSL chech that those don't I bet it would
work fine for you.

Robert
On Nov 24, 2013 8:17 AM, "Erik Mitchell" <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am setting up a new domain, and have to get SSL going on a couple of
> hostnames, for both HTTPS, IMAPs, and SMTP.
>
> Can anyone tell me if one wildcard SSL certificate will do the trick?
>
> -Erik
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/42d739b4/attachment.html>

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 10:05:15 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 10:05:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
Message-ID: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>

How to improve my website and the software?

Recently I changed a naming practice.  Previously the naming
was like this:

user-supplied name followed by ".cg"  followed by either .hh or .cc.
For example:
middle_messages_back.cg.hh
middle_messages_back.cg.cc

The "cg' suffix was short for computer generated.  Now I've removed
that suffix and replaced it with a "zz" prefix.  The previous example
is now:

zz.middle_messages_back.hh
zz.middle_messages_back.cc

(I have 3 tiers: back, middle and front.  middle_messages_back
is short for messages the middle tier send to or receives from the
back tier.)
The zz prefix has the effect of keeping all of the code generated by
the  C++ Middleware Writer together and toward the end of listings.
Originally I chose zz because it would be near the end of listings,
but have since liked it cause it's the heart of words like dazzling,
sizzling and pizza, and that reminds me to:."lift up my eyes to the
mountains"  Psalms 121.  In other words to have high goals.

So now I ask for comments on the documentation and software.
For example, how to improve this page:
http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html

Thanks in advance.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises.
http://webEbenezer.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/fb0792ba/attachment.html>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sun Nov 24 11:13:55 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 11:13:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>

I've been using startssl. It's free and it works with apache, postfix and 
dovecot.

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Erik Mitchell wrote:

> I am setting up a new domain, and have to get SSL going on a couple of
> hostnames, for both HTTPS, IMAPs, and SMTP.
>
> Can anyone tell me if one wildcard SSL certificate will do the trick?
>
> -Erik
>
> -- 
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From pj.world at hotmail.com  Sun Nov 24 11:41:01 2013
From: pj.world at hotmail.com (paul g)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 11:41:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY175-W5160862E0C2C8200697DD999E20@phx.gbl>

no thanks get me off this mailing list I never used anyone but was treated like trash. Get me off this mailing list.

Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 10:05:15 -0600
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com
To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software

How to improve my website and the software?  

Recently I changed a naming practice.  Previously the naming
was like this:

user-supplied name followed by ".cg"  followed by either .hh or .cc.

For example:
middle_messages_back.cg.hh
middle_messages_back.cg.cc

The "cg' suffix was short for computer generated.  Now I've removed
that suffix and replaced it with a "zz" prefix.  The previous example

is now:

zz.middle_messages_back.hh
zz.middle_messages_back.cc

(I have 3 tiers: back, middle and front.  middle_messages_back

is short for messages the middle tier send to or receives from the
back tier.)
The zz prefix has the effect of keeping all of the code generated by
the  C++ Middleware Writer together and toward the end of listings.  

Originally I chose zz because it would be near the end of listings,
but have since liked it cause it's the heart of words like dazzling,
sizzling and pizza, and that reminds me to:."lift up my eyes to the 

mountains"  Psalms 121.  In other words to have high goals.

So now I ask for comments on the documentation and software.  
For example, how to improve this page:  
http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html


Thanks in advance.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises.
http://webEbenezer.net






_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list 		 	   		  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/61f46d15/attachment.html>

From ryan.c.dunlop at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 11:51:28 2013
From: ryan.c.dunlop at gmail.com (Ryan Dunlop)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 11:51:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
In-Reply-To: <BAY175-W5160862E0C2C8200697DD999E20@phx.gbl>
References: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY175-W5160862E0C2C8200697DD999E20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAKOK-RzAU_SFYfs43uRbgQMGtBP50Ezx67e0dwGNB+_5PWjVvw@mail.gmail.com>

So unsubscribe, Paul.  Not hard.  Or do you need help figuring that out?
Quit posting trash talk and go away. It has taken everything I have to not
feed you, the current troll of the list. You were helped plenty in the
beginning and now you just ramble on about nothing.

Sorry list, I know better but my coffee hasn't kicked in and these little
whine sessions of his are getting to me. Have a fine Sunday.
On Nov 24, 2013 11:41 AM, "paul g" <pj.world at hotmail.com> wrote:

> no thanks get me off this mailing list I never used anyone but was treated
> like trash. Get me off this mailing list.
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 10:05:15 -0600
> From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
>
> How to improve my website and the software?
>
> Recently I changed a naming practice.  Previously the naming
> was like this:
>
> user-supplied name followed by ".cg"  followed by either .hh or .cc.
> For example:
> middle_messages_back.cg.hh
> middle_messages_back.cg.cc
>
> The "cg' suffix was short for computer generated.  Now I've removed
> that suffix and replaced it with a "zz" prefix.  The previous example
> is now:
>
> zz.middle_messages_back.hh
> zz.middle_messages_back.cc
>
> (I have 3 tiers: back, middle and front.  middle_messages_back
> is short for messages the middle tier send to or receives from the
> back tier.)
> The zz prefix has the effect of keeping all of the code generated by
> the  C++ Middleware Writer together and toward the end of listings.
> Originally I chose zz because it would be near the end of listings,
> but have since liked it cause it's the heart of words like dazzling,
> sizzling and pizza, and that reminds me to:."lift up my eyes to the
> mountains"  Psalms 121.  In other words to have high goals.
>
> So now I ask for comments on the documentation and software.
> For example, how to improve this page:
> http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises.
> http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List -
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/6fc8c6b8/attachment-0001.html>

From eminmn at sysmatrix.net  Sun Nov 24 12:48:07 2013
From: eminmn at sysmatrix.net (e.c.)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 12:48:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
In-Reply-To: <BAY175-W5160862E0C2C8200697DD999E20@phx.gbl>
References: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY175-W5160862E0C2C8200697DD999E20@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAM4eEPJsRKAVSo2BOcgGUkY6r9BKN893nuFZZD-pBzgWxOFzHw@mail.gmail.com>

You remind me of the whiner from the movie
_Aliens_. "Game over man!" and "How do I get out of this chickenshit
outfit."

Ed


On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:41 AM, paul g <pj.world at hotmail.com> wrote:

> no thanks get me off this mailing list I never used anyone but was treated
> like trash. Get me off this mailing list.
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 10:05:15 -0600
> From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
>
> How to improve my website and the software?
>
> Recently I changed a naming practice.  Previously the naming
> was like this:
>
> user-supplied name followed by ".cg"  followed by either .hh or .cc.
> For example:
> middle_messages_back.cg.hh
> middle_messages_back.cg.cc
>
> The "cg' suffix was short for computer generated.  Now I've removed
> that suffix and replaced it with a "zz" prefix.  The previous example
> is now:
>
> zz.middle_messages_back.hh
> zz.middle_messages_back.cc
>
> (I have 3 tiers: back, middle and front.  middle_messages_back
> is short for messages the middle tier send to or receives from the
> back tier.)
> The zz prefix has the effect of keeping all of the code generated by
> the  C++ Middleware Writer together and toward the end of listings.
> Originally I chose zz because it would be near the end of listings,
> but have since liked it cause it's the heart of words like dazzling,
> sizzling and pizza, and that reminds me to:."lift up my eyes to the
> mountains"  Psalms 121.  In other words to have high goals.
>
> So now I ask for comments on the documentation and software.
> For example, how to improve this page:
> http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> --
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises.
> http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List -
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/45e0ca47/attachment.html>

From eng at pinenet.com  Sun Nov 24 13:45:46 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 13:45:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5292576A.4060308@pinenet.com>

What little I understand, very good reference I would like to study.

I followed the links to the physics prof. you liked, and he is doing a 
little biophysics and climate as well. The water infrared is interesting 
to me having done my research including water biophysics up to 100,000 
psi. A gimmick I push to spritual types is how water is a semiconductor 
(just like silicon) with acids and bases as proton donors and acceptors. 
It turns out a protein/water surface defines a transistor circuit, with 
nanostructures in the protein. Control Data described my thesis "Protein 
and Dynamically ReConfigurable Liquid Crystal Microprocessor." A lot can 
follow from fundamental physics; the then head of biophysics, Otto 
Schmitt copied a nerve signal and is known for digital electronics. When 
I introduced him as father of digital electronics at a meeting and threw 
around some Schmitt trigger ICs he said, "boy I wish I had patented that 
thing." Who knows where your science curiosity will take you??

Currently I'm pushing forestry and different agriculture for new biofuel 
types and climate. And I'm too old to learn new programming languages, 
so I stumble with FreePascal (that can use any C header) and Tcl on 
linux and love it. A lot of stuff in the Mpls. paper today about biofuel 
and agriculture I want to read.

I once knew a guy who said he had projects planned until he was 200 
years old. He didn't finish either.

Brian Wood wrote:
> How to improve my website and the software?
>
> Recently I changed a naming practice.  Previously the naming
> was like this:
>
> user-supplied name followed by ".cg"  followed by either .hh or .cc.
> For example:
> middle_messages_back.cg.hh
> middle_messages_back.cg.cc
>
> The "cg' suffix was short for computer generated.  Now I've removed
> that suffix and replaced it with a "zz" prefix.  The previous example
> is now:
>
> zz.middle_messages_back.hh
> zz.middle_messages_back.cc
>
> (I have 3 tiers: back, middle and front.  middle_messages_back
> is short for messages the middle tier send to or receives from the
> back tier.)
> The zz prefix has the effect of keeping all of the code generated by
> the  C++ Middleware Writer together and toward the end of listings.
> Originally I chose zz because it would be near the end of listings,
> but have since liked it cause it's the heart of words like dazzling,
> sizzling and pizza, and that reminds me to:."lift up my eyes to the
> mountains"  Psalms 121.  In other words to have high goals.
>
> So now I ask for comments on the documentation and software.
> For example, how to improve this page:
> http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 15:02:52 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:02:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
In-Reply-To: <CAKOK-RzAU_SFYfs43uRbgQMGtBP50Ezx67e0dwGNB+_5PWjVvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjvkj1oFiU=HXEzaK+vwpcWziD8fz0VXr0dd+PCBRg6-fg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY175-W5160862E0C2C8200697DD999E20@phx.gbl>
 <CAKOK-RzAU_SFYfs43uRbgQMGtBP50Ezx67e0dwGNB+_5PWjVvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311241458331.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

Same here.  I'm sure there is something wrong with paul g because he seems 
very emotional about something, but I don't see anything happening here, 
at least nothing to do with him.  I hope he feels better soon.  None of us 
is against him!  Seriously.

This is hidden in the header of every message emanating from this list:

List-Id: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list.mn-linux.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/options/tclug-list>,
  <mailto:tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list>
List-Post: <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
List-Help: <mailto:tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>,
  <mailto:tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org?subject=subscribe>

So there are two unsubscribe options:  Web-based or email-based.

Mike


On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Ryan Dunlop wrote:

> So unsubscribe, Paul.  Not hard.  Or do you need help figuring that out?
> Quit posting trash talk and go away. It has taken everything I have to not
> feed you, the current troll of the list. You were helped plenty in the
> beginning and now you just ramble on about nothing.
>
> Sorry list, I know better but my coffee hasn't kicked in and these little
> whine sessions of his are getting to me. Have a fine Sunday.
> On Nov 24, 2013 11:41 AM, "paul g" <pj.world at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> no thanks get me off this mailing list I never used anyone but was treated
>> like trash. Get me off this mailing list.
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 10:05:15 -0600
>> From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com
>> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> Subject: [tclug-list] Dazzling software
>>
>> How to improve my website and the software?
>>
>> Recently I changed a naming practice.  Previously the naming
>> was like this:
>>
>> user-supplied name followed by ".cg"  followed by either .hh or .cc.
>> For example:
>> middle_messages_back.cg.hh
>> middle_messages_back.cg.cc
>>
>> The "cg' suffix was short for computer generated.  Now I've removed
>> that suffix and replaced it with a "zz" prefix.  The previous example
>> is now:
>>
>> zz.middle_messages_back.hh
>> zz.middle_messages_back.cc
>>
>> (I have 3 tiers: back, middle and front.  middle_messages_back
>> is short for messages the middle tier send to or receives from the
>> back tier.)
>> The zz prefix has the effect of keeping all of the code generated by
>> the  C++ Middleware Writer together and toward the end of listings.
>> Originally I chose zz because it would be near the end of listings,
>> but have since liked it cause it's the heart of words like dazzling,
>> sizzling and pizza, and that reminds me to:."lift up my eyes to the
>> mountains"  Psalms 121.  In other words to have high goals.
>>
>> So now I ask for comments on the documentation and software.
>> For example, how to improve this page:
>> http://webEbenezer.net/build_integration.html
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> --
>> Brian
>> Ebenezer Enterprises.
>> http://webEbenezer.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List -
>> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>

From droidjd at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 15:25:32 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 15:25:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues
In-Reply-To: <CAEeVNhK+QbkWeXKELc-pXmEZ__hsduUU+CTo=jd2cmuMMwXnXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEeVNhK+QbkWeXKELc-pXmEZ__hsduUU+CTo=jd2cmuMMwXnXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdzysjKXQKWd+oAXLFunv=4PQKJaseYAiH42QUkdx1gVLA@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know a lot about cinnamon or gnome, but have you tried uninstalling
and reinstalling cinnamon? You may have to move your config files elsewhere
for that to work, but it's an idea if you're not seeing any errors being
printed by cinnamon. Alternatively you could install KDE or GNOME to get
you through your mentoring session, provided this problem is specific to
cinnamon and not the X Server.

Hope you get it figured out!

-Andrew
On Nov 24, 2013 1:07 AM, "Kat Toomajian" <zarhooie at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello, folks. :)
>
> I had a CATAstrophe this evening where my friend's cat did the two-step on
> my keyboard. Somewhere in her keyboard smash, she managed to do something
> really funky with the desktop. As far as I can tell, she managed to
> uninstall Cinnamon, or at least break it to the point where I can't do
> anything with it.
>
> I have tried restarting the computer, and also Cinnamon via the run
> cinnamon --restart command. Nothing has any effect. I am backing up data in
> case the final answer is to reinstall the OS, but I am hopeful that won't
> have to happen. I am especially hopeful because I am supposed to be
> mentoring newbie devs tomorrow in the mysterious ways of "documenting your
> code" and I kind of need to be online for that.
>
> Anyone have any ideas? I am stumped.
>
> Kat
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/7bb647a4/attachment-0001.html>

From gsker at skerbitz.org  Sun Nov 24 17:31:03 2013
From: gsker at skerbitz.org (gsker)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 17:31:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux Mint Cinnamon issues
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdzysjKXQKWd+oAXLFunv=4PQKJaseYAiH42QUkdx1gVLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEeVNhK+QbkWeXKELc-pXmEZ__hsduUU+CTo=jd2cmuMMwXnXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjzMdzysjKXQKWd+oAXLFunv=4PQKJaseYAiH42QUkdx1gVLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1311241729410.15834@thealeph.net>

When I get stuck with things like this, I often create a new user on the 
box and test with that user rather than my own account.

So many times these issues are in your "profile" ($HOME/.config) and 
reinstalling won't help.

Gerry

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Andrew Dahl wrote:

> 
> I don't know a lot about cinnamon or gnome, but have you tried uninstalling and reinstalling cinnamon? You may have to
> move your config files elsewhere for that to work, but it's an idea if you're not seeing any errors being printed by
> cinnamon. Alternatively you could install KDE or GNOME to get you through your mentoring session, provided this problem is
> specific to cinnamon and not the X Server.
> 
> Hope you get it figured out!
> 
> -Andrew
> 
> On Nov 24, 2013 1:07 AM, "Kat Toomajian" <zarhooie at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>       Hello, folks. :)
>
>       I had a CATAstrophe this evening where my friend's cat did the two-step on my keyboard. Somewhere in her
>       keyboard smash, she managed to do something really funky with the desktop. As far as I can tell, she managed
>       to uninstall Cinnamon, or at least break it to the point where I can't do anything with it.
>
>       I have tried restarting the computer, and also Cinnamon via the run cinnamon --restart command. Nothing has
>       any effect. I am backing up data in case the final answer is to reinstall the OS, but I am hopeful that won't
>       have to happen. I am especially hopeful because I am supposed to be mentoring newbie devs tomorrow in the
>       mysterious ways of "documenting your code" and I kind of need to be online for that.
>
>       Anyone have any ideas? I am stumped.
>
>       Kat
> 
>
>       _______________________________________________
>       TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>       tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>       http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
>

From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 19:34:11 2013
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 19:34:11 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:13 AM,  <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> I've been using startssl. It's free and it works with apache, postfix and
> dovecot.

Did you have any trouble with their verification process?

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sun Nov 24 19:37:28 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 19:37:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241936290.8082@cockerel.yaron.org>

Nope, since I own my own domains and run my own mail servers on them. The 
verification for personal-type stuff was them sending an email to the 
addresses for the tech contact for the domain. I think.


On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Tony Yarusso wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:13 AM,  <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
>> I've been using startssl. It's free and it works with apache, postfix and
>> dovecot.
>
> Did you have any trouble with their verification process?
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tonyyarusso at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 20:29:32 2013
From: tonyyarusso at gmail.com (Tony Yarusso)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 20:29:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241936290.8082@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241936290.8082@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CAOZLdJWVOg8QD+tBx7L6KPVg_rfoBXpZF46eNgcWuZV-bvhDxg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, I thought you had a StartSSL wildcard.  Those require identity
verification of sending them at least two different government-issued
photo IDs, and has involved extra hoops for some people.

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Sun Nov 24 21:52:22 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 21:52:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <CAOZLdJWVOg8QD+tBx7L6KPVg_rfoBXpZF46eNgcWuZV-bvhDxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241936290.8082@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJWVOg8QD+tBx7L6KPVg_rfoBXpZF46eNgcWuZV-bvhDxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311242152040.9180@cockerel.yaron.org>

No, just their regular SSL certs. I'm not an organization... yet...

On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Tony Yarusso wrote:

> Oh, I thought you had a StartSSL wildcard.  Those require identity
> verification of sending them at least two different government-issued
> photo IDs, and has involved extra hoops for some people.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From kenlynes at usa.net  Sun Nov 24 22:35:17 2013
From: kenlynes at usa.net (Kenneth Lynes)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 22:35:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] post by Kat Toomajian about wrecking mint
Message-ID: <752RkyeIR2736S05.1385354117@web05.cms.usa.net>

I am not very good source to fix things but when I boot up I get to where grub
gives me some options to boot my system and usually there is one which is
labeled something like restore. Would that work ok to fix this?
Ken


>    4. Re: Linux Mint Cinnamon issues (Andrew Dahl)

> On Nov 24, 2013 1:07 AM, "Kat Toomajian" <zarhooie at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Hello, folks. :)
> >
> > I had a CATAstrophe this evening where my friend's cat did the two-step
on
> > my keyboard. Somewhere in her keyboard smash, she managed to do something
> > really funky with the desktop. As far as I can tell, she managed to
> > uninstall Cinnamon, or at least break it to the point where I can't do
> > anything with it.
> >
> > I have tried restarting the computer, and also Cinnamon via the run
> > cinnamon --restart command. Nothing has any effect. I am backing up data
in
> > case the final answer is to reinstall the OS, but I am hopeful that won't
> > have to happen. I am especially hopeful because I am supposed to be
> > mentoring newbie devs tomorrow in the mysterious ways of "documenting
your
> > code" and I kind of need to be online for that.
> >
> > Anyone have any ideas? I am stumped.
> >
> > Kat
> >
> 


From erikerik at gmail.com  Sun Nov 24 23:24:35 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Sun, 24 Nov 2013 23:24:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
Message-ID: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>

So who has moderation privileges on tclug-list anyway and why do we never
hear from them?

With the recent shenanigans by Misters Wood and G, it would be nice to hear
from the moderation staff (if indeed anyone is manning the wheelhouse) on
whether or not this type of behavior is appropriate and will be tolerated.
It would be one thing if Brian would publicly recognize his inappropriate
behavior and state that he'll work on staying on topic. That's just not the
case - he posts something blatantly inappropriate, gets called to the
carpet by list members, goes silent for a few weeks or a month and the
cycle continues.

As much as I want to stay somewhat connected with local linux folks, it's
not worth my time or mental energy to give voice to these guys. If blatant
name-calling and religio-political rhetoric are to be allowed, then I'm
afraid I'll be unsubscribing. If not, then great - put these two on
moderation so the rest of us can get on with our normal discussions.

I'm a firm believer that *any* community, whether virtual or physical,
whether it's an email list, discussion forum, or Stack Exchange-type site,
**requires** fairly strict adherence to the topic at hand, and zero
tolerance for disrespectful behavior. If these are allowed, people that
really do want to be involved just get driven away.

Happy Sunday evening, all!
-Erik
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131124/fe4a6ccf/attachment.html>

From jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com  Mon Nov 25 00:21:23 2013
From: jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com (Jason Hsu)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 00:21:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
Message-ID: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>

Thanks to those of you who suggested KeePass2 for generating and saving good secure passwords for the desktop/laptop environment.  As a result, I can use a different password that is long and randomly generated for each of my accounts.  I recommend KeePass2 to all of my Facebook friends.

What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?  Typing on a smartphone is a slow and error-prone process for me simply because the ergonomics fall far short of what a laptop or desktop can provide.  This makes it impossible to use good, secure passwords.  (Then again, I don't do any financial transactions on my smartphone.)

-- 
Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>

From droidjd at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 01:00:19 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 01:00:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdxN5x+j+Te2OqRTFciDLdqt8qHdEo7o27_=dXe0+OY2Wg@mail.gmail.com>

Although I don't use it, my brother-in-law swears by LastPass and uses it
on all his computers and mobile devices (with hideously long generated
passwords).  I used it once upon a time for a trial period and it was
pretty slick.

Apparently it recently added an option to sync passwords across multiple
accounts, which would be pretty handy for family accounts.


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> Thanks to those of you who suggested KeePass2 for generating and saving
> good secure passwords for the desktop/laptop environment.  As a result, I
> can use a different password that is long and randomly generated for each
> of my accounts.  I recommend KeePass2 to all of my Facebook friends.
>
> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?
>  Typing on a smartphone is a slow and error-prone process for me simply
> because the ergonomics fall far short of what a laptop or desktop can
> provide.  This makes it impossible to use good, secure passwords.  (Then
> again, I don't do any financial transactions on my smartphone.)
>
> --
> Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/263fd5fd/attachment.html>

From eng at pinenet.com  Mon Nov 25 02:47:44 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 02:47:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] XForms GUI toolkit
Message-ID: <52930EB0.7090300@pinenet.com>

Perhaps others might be interested in a low level windowing toolkit.

Some screenshots are here;
> http://xforms-toolkit.org/screenshots/

The GNU project page is here;
> http://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/xforms/

The home page is here;
> http://xforms-toolkit.org/

I did some dead end conversion of the XForms.Lib C function headers to 
FreePascal available here;
> http://www.sytekcom.com/eng/Freepascal_XForms_Units.html

And some more dead end conversion of examples here;
> http://www.sytekcom.com/eng/Freepascal_XForms_Demos.html

Using the FreePascal functions requires some FreePascal setup, which I 
don't advocate for the impatient. One point to make is that FreePascal 
is NOT case sensitive, but C is. I simply use long descriptive names to 
help me read the code. I have no idea how people read C.

FreePascal compiles and links to any C code, however. Even the GNU C 
library. You can really dig into the linux core, and read what you're doing.

Of note with the XForms screenshots is science lab and factory controls. 
Since XForms runs right off Xlib functions, it is as close to a base 
windowing kit I know of. NCurses and Direct Framebuffer perhaps the 
exception.

I don't believe the timer functions are close to high precision for 
XForms. But if you're looking for some GNU instrumentation window 
controls, this might be of interest.

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 06:11:23 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 06:11:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311242152040.9180@cockerel.yaron.org>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241936290.8082@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJWVOg8QD+tBx7L6KPVg_rfoBXpZF46eNgcWuZV-bvhDxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311242152040.9180@cockerel.yaron.org>
Message-ID: <CANNReEFsYscHLN+vpcWmeOvFpmeay95e3Z2Mrpx7k77Tyjwcuw@mail.gmail.com>

Holy crap StartSSL does basic SSL certificates for free!? Not sure if
someone mentioned this and I missed it, but this is new information to
me.

Sweet!

-Erik

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 9:52 PM,  <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> No, just their regular SSL certs. I'm not an organization... yet...
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Tony Yarusso wrote:
>
>> Oh, I thought you had a StartSSL wildcard.  Those require identity
>> verification of sending them at least two different government-issued
>> photo IDs, and has involved extra hoops for some people.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From jus at krytosvirus.com  Mon Nov 25 06:57:42 2013
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 06:57:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
Message-ID: <dcw00blak8htqut5i5i42vdd.1385384011104@email.android.com>

Of course you self sign a certificate for free and make the expiration 20 years in the future if you want. The important distinction with this place, and I've used them for years too, is the inherited trust today's browsers have for their CA signed certificates. I used to use CACert with that same deal but I think they kinda disappeared one year. I'm pretty sure this existence has been mentioned before on the list.?

$dayjob uses several Wildcard SSL certificates for a couple of domains, it sure is handy but it's from Geotrust not StartSSL.?







-------- Original message --------
From: Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com> 
Date: 11/25/2013  6:11 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web? 
 
Holy crap StartSSL does basic SSL certificates for free!? Not sure if
someone mentioned this and I missed it, but this is new information to
me.

Sweet!

-Erik

On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 9:52 PM,? <tclug at freakzilla.com> wrote:
> No, just their regular SSL certs. I'm not an organization... yet...
>
>
> On Sun, 24 Nov 2013, Tony Yarusso wrote:
>
>> Oh, I thought you had a StartSSL wildcard.? Those require identity
>> verification of sending them at least two different government-issued
>> photo IDs, and has involved extra hoops for some people.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/b5401fd0/attachment.html>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:38:13 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:38:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08p1Ng4xXWkEMk=9Vb=56=kegannzhStmMYO2XBxd_1FVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:

> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?


I've been using 1Password on my workstations (OSX) and iOS mobile devices
for quite some time, to great success. It can use Dropbox to sync its
encrypted db files between devices.

It does support both iOS and Android mobile devices, but unfortunately only
Windows and OSX on the workstation side of things.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/ff67bd80/attachment.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:41:18 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:41:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08p1Ng4xXWkEMk=9Vb=56=kegannzhStmMYO2XBxd_1FVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
 <CADdM08p1Ng4xXWkEMk=9Vb=56=kegannzhStmMYO2XBxd_1FVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEEdVLjCEjJKuADw6_qHiw-vF1yHaPDUOwPJXcx+u9rv7g@mail.gmail.com>

MODERATORS THIS IS CLEARLY OFF TOPIC!!! THIS IS A LINUX LIST NOT OSX/iOS!!1

:P

In all seriousness... I have used Keepass and KeepassX for a long time
now and it works great. I keep my .kdb files in my Dropbox and access
them from all of my devices.

-Erik

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com> wrote:
>>
>> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?
>
>
> I've been using 1Password on my workstations (OSX) and iOS mobile devices
> for quite some time, to great success. It can use Dropbox to sync its
> encrypted db files between devices.
>
> It does support both iOS and Android mobile devices, but unfortunately only
> Windows and OSX on the workstation side of things.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:42:04 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:42:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEFsYscHLN+vpcWmeOvFpmeay95e3Z2Mrpx7k77Tyjwcuw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241936290.8082@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJWVOg8QD+tBx7L6KPVg_rfoBXpZF46eNgcWuZV-bvhDxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311242152040.9180@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CANNReEFsYscHLN+vpcWmeOvFpmeay95e3Z2Mrpx7k77Tyjwcuw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08q1_0L0CRXSNOMtbkusbkra3kCkyKDwGR1O3eFJ+VSk-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> Holy crap StartSSL does basic SSL certificates for free!? Not sure if
> someone mentioned this and I missed it, but this is new information to
> me.
>

They do, but their CA cert is missing in the default trust store of a few
older browsers, which may or may not be an issue.

I use StartSSL extensively to protect development sites and
internal-use-only type of sites, where it's not cumbersome to have other
employees import and trust StartSSL's CA cert if needed.

As an aside, people that have used StartSSL already know this, but they're
one of the few websites out there that use TLS client-side certificates for
authentication. I *so much* wish other sites would start doing the same.

-Erik
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/770969de/attachment.html>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:42:57 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:42:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEEdVLjCEjJKuADw6_qHiw-vF1yHaPDUOwPJXcx+u9rv7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
 <CADdM08p1Ng4xXWkEMk=9Vb=56=kegannzhStmMYO2XBxd_1FVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEEdVLjCEjJKuADw6_qHiw-vF1yHaPDUOwPJXcx+u9rv7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08pcD1Vanx8BKQmJK-vV7K+kZ_F3V8aA2q0t-2bLM3E1WA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> MODERATORS THIS IS CLEARLY OFF TOPIC!!! THIS IS A LINUX LIST NOT OSX/iOS!!1
>
> :P
>

Touch?. :)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/98236a14/attachment.html>

From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:44:07 2013
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:44:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>

I think I am on the same page as Erik here, sadly. I've enjoyed lurking on
this list, and have seen some pretty interesting tips and tricks, but I do
have to say there is far more drama on this list, mostly related to a very
small number of people, than other similar lists I am on.

I could see someone innocently slipping in comments like "and that reminds
me to:."lift up my eyes to the
mountains"  Psalms 121" even though it adds nothing of value to the
conversations -- but when it comes right after the "No-Nines" email thread
where they were repeatedly asked to leave religion off the list -- it feels
like we have a troll on our hands... It may have been innocent -- but it
really feels like he is testing the waters just to see how far he can push.

Jeff


On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:

> So who has moderation privileges on tclug-list anyway and why do we never
> hear from them?
>
> With the recent shenanigans by Misters Wood and G, it would be nice to
> hear from the moderation staff (if indeed anyone is manning the wheelhouse)
> on whether or not this type of behavior is appropriate and will be
> tolerated. It would be one thing if Brian would publicly recognize his
> inappropriate behavior and state that he'll work on staying on topic.
> That's just not the case - he posts something blatantly inappropriate, gets
> called to the carpet by list members, goes silent for a few weeks or a
> month and the cycle continues.
>
> As much as I want to stay somewhat connected with local linux folks, it's
> not worth my time or mental energy to give voice to these guys. If blatant
> name-calling and religio-political rhetoric are to be allowed, then I'm
> afraid I'll be unsubscribing. If not, then great - put these two on
> moderation so the rest of us can get on with our normal discussions.
>
> I'm a firm believer that *any* community, whether virtual or physical,
> whether it's an email list, discussion forum, or Stack Exchange-type site,
> **requires** fairly strict adherence to the topic at hand, and zero
> tolerance for disrespectful behavior. If these are allowed, people that
> really do want to be involved just get driven away.
>
> Happy Sunday evening, all!
> -Erik
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/d96fd1ab/attachment.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:44:18 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:44:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Wildcard SSL key for mail and web?
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08q1_0L0CRXSNOMtbkusbkra3kCkyKDwGR1O3eFJ+VSk-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANNReEHjsa+a2PD-+Qwc51mMx=1f8jqHh6iHZtW4j0fSXxWe9A@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241113270.7303@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJUY-t4LHaB1bVLMbVqKznrGbzj5H4xROwk4iRhn6HSm=w@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311241936290.8082@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CAOZLdJWVOg8QD+tBx7L6KPVg_rfoBXpZF46eNgcWuZV-bvhDxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311242152040.9180@cockerel.yaron.org>
 <CANNReEFsYscHLN+vpcWmeOvFpmeay95e3Z2Mrpx7k77Tyjwcuw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08q1_0L0CRXSNOMtbkusbkra3kCkyKDwGR1O3eFJ+VSk-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEE3CEDmp9Ee9=PuYFYHcAQwwpmrfxVcjv_uhpKhYJ2Msg@mail.gmail.com>

> As an aside, people that have used StartSSL already know this, but they're
> one of the few websites out there that use TLS client-side certificates for
> authentication. I *so much* wish other sites would start doing the same.

I actually just tried doing this not too long ago with my CGit site,
but wasn't able to get it to work in Chromium on Linux, because
apparently they don't support client side certificates no Linux? Has
anyone else run into this issue?

-Erik

-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:48:24 2013
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:48:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEEdVLjCEjJKuADw6_qHiw-vF1yHaPDUOwPJXcx+u9rv7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
 <CADdM08p1Ng4xXWkEMk=9Vb=56=kegannzhStmMYO2XBxd_1FVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEEdVLjCEjJKuADw6_qHiw-vF1yHaPDUOwPJXcx+u9rv7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+PrcbZJp_C0b2kb4+MVCw0mMmU8jseLBLDU3H+G2dMPXA@mail.gmail.com>

I also store my KeePass2 database on dropbox (as well as a bash script to
start it in linux) and access it from Windows/Linux/Android. I have also
installed plugins in Chrome and Firefox -- one integrates KeePass with the
browser (replacing the built in password store) and one that disables the
ability of websites to say whether or not I am allowed to save my passwords
-- I feel that using long, random passwords that are distinct for each site
I use is more secure than keeping them simple enough to memorize --
particularly on sites I seldom use.

Jeff


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:41 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> MODERATORS THIS IS CLEARLY OFF TOPIC!!! THIS IS A LINUX LIST NOT OSX/iOS!!1
>
> :P
>
> In all seriousness... I have used Keepass and KeepassX for a long time
> now and it works great. I keep my .kdb files in my Dropbox and access
> them from all of my devices.
>
> -Erik
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:38 AM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu <jhsu802701 at jasonhsu.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?
> >
> >
> > I've been using 1Password on my workstations (OSX) and iOS mobile devices
> > for quite some time, to great success. It can use Dropbox to sync its
> > encrypted db files between devices.
> >
> > It does support both iOS and Android mobile devices, but unfortunately
> only
> > Windows and OSX on the workstation side of things.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/ab418a0c/attachment-0001.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 08:52:53 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 08:52:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>

It's not really doing much harm, in my opinion, and to the extent that
it is, I think a person who is a moderator could email someone
off-list and ask them to stop, and if they don't, then ban them from
the list, or take away privileges, or whatever.

I'd prefer to err on the side of inclusion. This isn't an IEEE mailing
list, it's a LUG mailing list. A small one at that, for a group that
hardly ever meets, and when it does, it meets for beer. I'm actually
less annoyed by trolling than I am at seeing experienced interneters
feeding the trolls*, and then getting mad that their inbox is being
flooded with nonsense.

Perhaps enough of us care that we should reassign responsibilities to
people who might be interested in more active leadership? Should we
have a new group of moderators? Should we elect a new
president/supreme ruler?

-Erik

* I may be guilty of this

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> I think I am on the same page as Erik here, sadly. I've enjoyed lurking on
> this list, and have seen some pretty interesting tips and tricks, but I do
> have to say there is far more drama on this list, mostly related to a very
> small number of people, than other similar lists I am on.
>
> I could see someone innocently slipping in comments like "and that reminds
> me to:."lift up my eyes to the
> mountains"  Psalms 121" even though it adds nothing of value to the
> conversations -- but when it comes right after the "No-Nines" email thread
> where they were repeatedly asked to leave religion off the list -- it feels
> like we have a troll on our hands... It may have been innocent -- but it
> really feels like he is testing the waters just to see how far he can push.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> So who has moderation privileges on tclug-list anyway and why do we never
>> hear from them?
>>
>> With the recent shenanigans by Misters Wood and G, it would be nice to
>> hear from the moderation staff (if indeed anyone is manning the wheelhouse)
>> on whether or not this type of behavior is appropriate and will be
>> tolerated. It would be one thing if Brian would publicly recognize his
>> inappropriate behavior and state that he'll work on staying on topic. That's
>> just not the case - he posts something blatantly inappropriate, gets called
>> to the carpet by list members, goes silent for a few weeks or a month and
>> the cycle continues.
>>
>> As much as I want to stay somewhat connected with local linux folks, it's
>> not worth my time or mental energy to give voice to these guys. If blatant
>> name-calling and religio-political rhetoric are to be allowed, then I'm
>> afraid I'll be unsubscribing. If not, then great - put these two on
>> moderation so the rest of us can get on with our normal discussions.
>>
>> I'm a firm believer that *any* community, whether virtual or physical,
>> whether it's an email list, discussion forum, or Stack Exchange-type site,
>> **requires** fairly strict adherence to the topic at hand, and zero
>> tolerance for disrespectful behavior. If these are allowed, people that
>> really do want to be involved just get driven away.
>>
>> Happy Sunday evening, all!
>> -Erik
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Chapin
> President, CedarLug, retired
> President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
> President, UNI Scuba Club
> Senator, NISG, retired
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From eng at pinenet.com  Mon Nov 25 09:53:08 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 09:53:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52937264.30409@pinenet.com>

Thanks Erik, for some moderation.

Personally, despite his Bible thumping, I thought Brian's post's link 
was one of the most interesting I've seen from this group in the decade 
or so I've tried to participate. His reference to the infrared 
properties of water actually reminded me of how "dynamic addressing" 
occurs in protein biophysical chemistry. That was before the internet 
over fiber optics that so many think they've mastered. It was about 
1980, and people were open to ideas and open to thinking outside the box.

The first time I got frustrated with this group was when I was trying to 
program StarOffice5.2 and the user interface got totally fragmented into 
OpenOffice. I never did find anybody trying to program the Linux office 
suite over a decade ago.

I don't think we have a problem with the very rare Bible thumper 
message. I think we have a problem with a club, and a little bullying. 
Censorship, building a box, for the greater public good is not good 
linux news.

Erik Mitchell wrote:
> It's not really doing much harm, in my opinion, and to the extent that
> it is, I think a person who is a moderator could email someone
> off-list and ask them to stop, and if they don't, then ban them from
> the list, or take away privileges, or whatever.
>
> I'd prefer to err on the side of inclusion. This isn't an IEEE mailing
> list, it's a LUG mailing list. A small one at that, for a group that
> hardly ever meets, and when it does, it meets for beer. I'm actually
> less annoyed by trolling than I am at seeing experienced interneters
> feeding the trolls*, and then getting mad that their inbox is being
> flooded with nonsense.
>
> Perhaps enough of us care that we should reassign responsibilities to
> people who might be interested in more active leadership? Should we
> have a new group of moderators? Should we elect a new
> president/supreme ruler?
>
> -Erik
>
> * I may be guilty of this
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:44 AM, Jeff Chapin<chapinjeff at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I think I am on the same page as Erik here, sadly. I've enjoyed lurking on
>> this list, and have seen some pretty interesting tips and tricks, but I do
>> have to say there is far more drama on this list, mostly related to a very
>> small number of people, than other similar lists I am on.
>>
>> I could see someone innocently slipping in comments like "and that reminds
>> me to:."lift up my eyes to the
>> mountains"  Psalms 121" even though it adds nothing of value to the
>> conversations -- but when it comes right after the "No-Nines" email thread
>> where they were repeatedly asked to leave religion off the list -- it feels
>> like we have a troll on our hands... It may have been innocent -- but it
>> really feels like he is testing the waters just to see how far he can push.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 24, 2013 at 11:24 PM, Erik Anderson<erikerik at gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>
>>> So who has moderation privileges on tclug-list anyway and why do we never
>>> hear from them?
>>>
>>> With the recent shenanigans by Misters Wood and G, it would be nice to
>>> hear from the moderation staff (if indeed anyone is manning the wheelhouse)
>>> on whether or not this type of behavior is appropriate and will be
>>> tolerated. It would be one thing if Brian would publicly recognize his
>>> inappropriate behavior and state that he'll work on staying on topic. That's
>>> just not the case - he posts something blatantly inappropriate, gets called
>>> to the carpet by list members, goes silent for a few weeks or a month and
>>> the cycle continues.
>>>
>>> As much as I want to stay somewhat connected with local linux folks, it's
>>> not worth my time or mental energy to give voice to these guys. If blatant
>>> name-calling and religio-political rhetoric are to be allowed, then I'm
>>> afraid I'll be unsubscribing. If not, then great - put these two on
>>> moderation so the rest of us can get on with our normal discussions.
>>>
>>> I'm a firm believer that *any* community, whether virtual or physical,
>>> whether it's an email list, discussion forum, or Stack Exchange-type site,
>>> **requires** fairly strict adherence to the topic at hand, and zero
>>> tolerance for disrespectful behavior. If these are allowed, people that
>>> really do want to be involved just get driven away.
>>>
>>> Happy Sunday evening, all!
>>> -Erik
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jeff Chapin
>> President, CedarLug, retired
>> President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
>> President, UNI Scuba Club
>> Senator, NISG, retired
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
>

From eng at pinenet.com  Mon Nov 25 10:55:02 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 10:55:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
Message-ID: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>

1980 was a scary time. Nobody knew how to get our economy going. We had 
some (Altair) microcomputer stuff in Otto Schmitt's lab, but I never got 
access because the VietNam vets hogged it. My chem lab had a PDP11, 
pre-Unix, hooked to a teletype, and computer automation was a big push.
I don't think I was important starting the internet, but I never knew 
anybody else pushing it earlier, and I still don't believe it. I believe 
it was like crowd-funding, everybody just pushed their weight and we all 
made something move.

So here we are again, a country in debt, uncertain future. And now 
everything runs on computers. Iran is still in the news. The 
environment, too.

And now we have a truly amazing open source Linux, on all kinds of 
hardware. I sincerely believe we will need better computer skills if we 
hope to compete. Cars, power plants, factories, all industries will need 
computer (Linux) skills.

TCLUG should be where leaders grow.

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 11:22:34 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:22:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> It's not really doing much harm, in my opinion, and to the extent that
> it is, I think a person who is a moderator could email someone
> off-list and ask them to stop, and if they don't, then ban them from
> the list, or take away privileges, or whatever.
>

It's about respect - both of the individuals on this list and the purpose
of the list itself. No one likes being preached at, and especially not
within the context of technical conversation. There are indeed places where
preaching/ranting/whatever are appropriate. Technical mailing lists are not
one of those places.

Agreed, though, I would be perfectly happy if a mod would reach out to
people personally - that's exactly what should happen. We just haven't
heard anything, which communicates implicitly that off-topic, divisive
behavior is tolerated.


> I'd prefer to err on the side of inclusion. This isn't an IEEE mailing
> list, it's a LUG mailing list. A small one at that, for a group that
> hardly ever meets, and when it does, it meets for beer. I'm actually
> less annoyed by trolling than I am at seeing experienced interneters
> feeding the trolls*, and then getting mad that their inbox is being
> flooded with nonsense.
>

I think we're all perfectly capable of ignoring trolls. It's an essential
skill. That doesn't mean that trolling is an acceptable behavior, or that
which should be allowed.

I've been in far too many communities, technical and otherwise, where
off-topic, disrespectful behavior was tolerated and in *every* instance,
the community disintegrated. I don't want that for TCLUG. I want to attract
*more* people here, but with the current drama level, no one in their right
mind is going to sign up to be preached at regularly. There are plenty of
other well-run mailing lists, forums, etc. where they can go.

I was actually somewhat saddened while talking to people at the AWS
re:Invent conference a few weeks ago. I would mention that I'm from the
Twin Cities, and they'd ask how the technical community is in this area. I
explained that we have a *lot* of technical folks here, both on the
software development side as well as the sysadmin/operations side, but that
the opportunities to gather and exchange ideas are few and far between. I
would absolutely *love* to see TCLUG (and other local groups like it)
flourish. One key thing that will help this happen is indeed to cut out (as
much as possible) discussion and/or members that will alienate people.
Cripes, perhaps I'm one of those, and if so then so be it. I'd hope that's
not the case, though.


> Perhaps enough of us care that we should reassign responsibilities to
> people who might be interested in more active leadership? Should we
> have a new group of moderators? Should we elect a new
> president/supreme ruler?
>

+1. I'd at least like to hear who is on the mod list currently. If those
people are not actively involved on the list, then things should be
switched up.

-Erik
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/22fcf994/attachment-0001.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 11:36:36 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:36:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEF=n0_d0qShiFEgPSvmUhUTXBp=pExiFsKyLp68ykmaqg@mail.gmail.com>

@JeffJensen:
Do you think Intertech would be willing to host a TCLUG meeting in
early January? I'd like to propose electing officers, setting goals
for the year, and giving the group a purpose.

I really appreciate Rick's email. It makes me realize that being a
group gives us an opportunity, that we have been failing to seize, and
that we also have a responsibility to our community. There is a lot we
could do if we worked together to reach out to a younger generation,
and I think it would be a great thing for the group to do.

One of the items for the agenda would be email list moderation. Who?
How? What are the rules?

Thoughts?

-Erik

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> It's not really doing much harm, in my opinion, and to the extent that
>> it is, I think a person who is a moderator could email someone
>> off-list and ask them to stop, and if they don't, then ban them from
>> the list, or take away privileges, or whatever.
>
>
> It's about respect - both of the individuals on this list and the purpose of
> the list itself. No one likes being preached at, and especially not within
> the context of technical conversation. There are indeed places where
> preaching/ranting/whatever are appropriate. Technical mailing lists are not
> one of those places.
>
> Agreed, though, I would be perfectly happy if a mod would reach out to
> people personally - that's exactly what should happen. We just haven't heard
> anything, which communicates implicitly that off-topic, divisive behavior is
> tolerated.
>
>>
>> I'd prefer to err on the side of inclusion. This isn't an IEEE mailing
>> list, it's a LUG mailing list. A small one at that, for a group that
>> hardly ever meets, and when it does, it meets for beer. I'm actually
>> less annoyed by trolling than I am at seeing experienced interneters
>> feeding the trolls*, and then getting mad that their inbox is being
>> flooded with nonsense.
>
>
> I think we're all perfectly capable of ignoring trolls. It's an essential
> skill. That doesn't mean that trolling is an acceptable behavior, or that
> which should be allowed.
>
> I've been in far too many communities, technical and otherwise, where
> off-topic, disrespectful behavior was tolerated and in *every* instance, the
> community disintegrated. I don't want that for TCLUG. I want to attract
> *more* people here, but with the current drama level, no one in their right
> mind is going to sign up to be preached at regularly. There are plenty of
> other well-run mailing lists, forums, etc. where they can go.
>
> I was actually somewhat saddened while talking to people at the AWS
> re:Invent conference a few weeks ago. I would mention that I'm from the Twin
> Cities, and they'd ask how the technical community is in this area. I
> explained that we have a *lot* of technical folks here, both on the software
> development side as well as the sysadmin/operations side, but that the
> opportunities to gather and exchange ideas are few and far between. I would
> absolutely *love* to see TCLUG (and other local groups like it) flourish.
> One key thing that will help this happen is indeed to cut out (as much as
> possible) discussion and/or members that will alienate people. Cripes,
> perhaps I'm one of those, and if so then so be it. I'd hope that's not the
> case, though.
>
>>
>> Perhaps enough of us care that we should reassign responsibilities to
>> people who might be interested in more active leadership? Should we
>> have a new group of moderators? Should we elect a new
>> president/supreme ruler?
>
>
> +1. I'd at least like to hear who is on the mod list currently. If those
> people are not actively involved on the list, then things should be switched
> up.
>
> -Erik
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 11:38:57 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:38:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEF=n0_d0qShiFEgPSvmUhUTXBp=pExiFsKyLp68ykmaqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF=n0_d0qShiFEgPSvmUhUTXBp=pExiFsKyLp68ykmaqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEH=UiD2jtVGqH5RdPzGjiBFQ_dXXzeneBrLSj3ERreGZA@mail.gmail.com>

> I really appreciate Rick's email.

Specifically, Rick's "Moving forward with Linux." email.


-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From cschumann at twp-llc.com  Mon Nov 25 11:33:01 2013
From: cschumann at twp-llc.com (Chris Schumann)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 11:33:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.945.1385400183.1673.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.945.1385400183.1673.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <529389CD.2090601@twp-llc.com>

Erik Anderson<erikerik at gmail.com>  wrote:

> I was actually somewhat saddened while talking to people at the AWS
> re:Invent conference a few weeks ago. I would mention that I'm from the
> Twin Cities, and they'd ask how the technical community is in this area. I
> explained that we have a*lot*  of technical folks here, both on the
> software development side as well as the sysadmin/operations side, but that
> the opportunities to gather and exchange ideas are few and far between. I
> would absolutely*love*  to see TCLUG (and other local groups like it)
> flourish.
There are many opportunities to gather and exchange ideas in the Twin 
Cities, at least for software development.
Ruby.mn; jsmn; android, iOS, and dozens of other meetup groups for 
developers and users of software platforms...

I think TCLUG remains small because there are just not a lot of fans, 
and we are not organizing or promoting the group. I'm sure the 
moderators or the people who used to do that would welcome more 
enthusiasm and volunteer work. (There are even a few prominent RedHat 
employees in town we could talk to about sponsoring meetings.)

Chris

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/413d053f/attachment.html>

From whjwhj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 12:06:49 2013
From: whjwhj at gmail.com (Warren Jacobson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:06:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>

Interesting comments.

There seemed to be a great deal of interest in desktop Linux 10 to 15 years ago. Local Linux events were well attendend. Apple was languishing and a lot of smart people were trying to do what they could to avoid Microsoft's apparent monopoly of everything.

But these days? Look around. It would appear desktop Linux is increasingly becoming more and more obscure as people move on to their Macs, iPads, iPhones and Android devices. 

Who runs Linux on the desktop these days? A few Unix graybeards (myself included) and some stubborn idealists. All the cool kids have MacBook Pros.

Ironically, in many ways, given the rise of the web and the corresponding reduction in importance of the Windows based application ecosystem, it's never been a better time to run Linux on the desktop. We've got a few high quality web browers and email clients at our disposal. PC hardware to run Linux on has never been more affordable. And Linux installs in a breeze.

whj

On Nov 25, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:

> 1980 was a scary time. Nobody knew how to get our economy going. We had some (Altair) microcomputer stuff in Otto Schmitt's lab, but I never got access because the VietNam vets hogged it. My chem lab had a PDP11, pre-Unix, hooked to a teletype, and computer automation was a big push.
> I don't think I was important starting the internet, but I never knew anybody else pushing it earlier, and I still don't believe it. I believe it was like crowd-funding, everybody just pushed their weight and we all made something move.
> 
> So here we are again, a country in debt, uncertain future. And now everything runs on computers. Iran is still in the news. The environment, too.
> 
> And now we have a truly amazing open source Linux, on all kinds of hardware. I sincerely believe we will need better computer skills if we hope to compete. Cars, power plants, factories, all industries will need computer (Linux) skills.
> 
> TCLUG should be where leaders grow.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 25 12:12:07 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:12:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311251211030.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Warren Jacobson wrote:

> All the cool kids have MacBook Pros.

Wow. That is the first time in my life anyone has ever called me a cool 
kid.

Though some of us cool kids have Macbook Pros AND run Linux on our 
desktops!

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 12:25:50 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:25:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <529389CD.2090601@twp-llc.com>
References: <mailman.945.1385400183.1673.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <529389CD.2090601@twp-llc.com>
Message-ID: <5293962E.8010603@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.25 11:33, Chris Schumann wrote:
> There are many opportunities to gather and exchange ideas in the Twin Cities, at least for software development.
> Ruby.mn; jsmn; android, iOS, and dozens of other meetup groups for developers and users of software platforms...
> 
> I think TCLUG remains small because there are just not a lot of fans, and we are not organizing or promoting the group. I'm sure the
> moderators or the people who used to do that would welcome more enthusiasm and volunteer work. (There are even a few prominent RedHat
> employees in town we could talk to about sponsoring meetings.)
I would definitely like to see some more interaction with other related local user groups, and we certainly could promote the group more. I
noticed that there is a Twitter account for the group, but it hasn't been used in years. I'd be willing to manage it, tweeting about
upcoming meetings and some of the more interesting things that come up on the list. Twitter can be a lot more inviting for lurkers and
potential group members than the mailing list.

Also, something I'd like to have a discussion on at the meeting (if there is one) is how to make the group appear more friendly on the
outside to people using other open source operating systems. Fortunately, I've seen that, on the inside, this group is open to the use of
other operating systems such as the BSDs, but quite often, Linux communities tend to be completely ignorant at best and openly hostile at
worst. Since this is a Linux group in name, and since the installfests seem to be quite focused on Ubuntu, it is not hard to see why people
would assume the group is not going to be welcoming to users of open source operating systems that don't use a Linux kernel.
I had to actually convince someone from the PC-BSD project to come out to the January 25 meeting to help talk about ZFS, and the people in
the #freebsd channel on freenode (which is where I had the conversation with him) were a bit surprised when I explained that TCLUG is
actually generally not hostile to *BSD users. I don't have a 100% confirmation from him that he'll be there, but the outlook is good.

From stuporglue at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 12:30:57 2013
From: stuporglue at gmail.com (Michael Moore)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 12:30:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFE18KWXyuPhWvD2oiyoWfMvgTB6kaRvCVfAG0V0yENPZkabqw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> There seemed to be a great deal of interest in desktop Linux 10 to 15
> years ago. Local Linux events were well attendend. Apple was languishing
> and a lot of smart people were trying to do what they could to avoid
> Microsoft's apparent monopoly of everything.
>

10 years ago you pretty much needed local Linux support because you were
going to have some sort of install problem. If you were coming from Windows
you might not have ISO burning software so even getting a CD might be
difficult. If you got past install, you might need to compile a kernel to
get support for some specific piece of hardware.

Users coming into Linux now are likely to discover it online, discover
support communities online and ask for help in distro-specific forums
instead of joining a local LUG.

But these days? Look around. It would appear desktop Linux is increasingly
> becoming more and more obscure as people move on to their Macs, iPads,
> iPhones and Android devices.
>
> Who runs Linux on the desktop these days? A few Unix graybeards (myself
> included) and some stubborn idealists. All the cool kids have MacBook Pros.
>
> Ironically, in many ways, given the rise of the web and the corresponding
> reduction in importance of the Windows based application ecosystem, it's
> never been a better time to run Linux on the desktop. We've got a few high
> quality web browers and email clients at our disposal. PC hardware to run
> Linux on has never been more affordable. And Linux installs in a breeze.
>

I think Linux use has become more mainstream, and users aren't and don't
have to be as vocal about it. I heard a discussion between non-technical
people at church a while back about the merits of Mint vs. Ubuntu. Some of
the people installing Linux today are the ones who 10 years ago would've
been called on to remove adware from a relative's computer.

10 years ago, the local LUG (at least where I was) was also the primary
place to go to for other technical help like scripting, web development,
tech job hunts and other things that aren't strictly Linux related. The LUG
was simply the watering hole for local tech savvy population. (REALLY Off
topic material had to have "OT" in the subject line). If you're going to
get into scripting today you might be better off joining a Python or Ruby
mailing list rather than one focused on Linux.

If Linux and tech users are headed to distro/topic specific support groups
it does raise the question of what the purpose of a local LUG is. If it's
just to hang out online and handle the occasional Linux related email, then
the current state of the mailing list probably mostly fine. If we want to
have a more defined purpose then Erik's proposed January meeting sound like
an important chance to refocus the group.

--
Michael Moore
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/3722a907/attachment.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 14:06:52 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:06:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

I was using the PDP-11 at WPI in 1976, but that was a very challenging 
system compared to what came a few years later.  There were no monitors, 
just teletypes.  It was very painful to write program on that thing!

As a scientist, I see no substitute for Linux.  OS X just isn't going to 
cut it for me, but on a laptop computer or desktop machine, maybe OS X has 
potential.  I'm not going to find out because Linux is working for me 
everywhere.  I do keep one Windows box for the odd program that won't run 
on Linux.

The Free Software model seems also to be working great in the sciences and 
I think it is performing very well for operating systems, too.  The big 
problem with it is that programmers have to make a living somehow, but 
writing a great program with no bugs that just works with minimal 
documentation doesn't seem to pay back much if it can't be sold, not even 
if 100 million people are using it.  Fame is nice, but it won't put your 
kids through college, buy you a house or pay for dinner.

That said, Linux is a great OS for programmers and for programming 
cooperatively in groups to produce some really nice software.  It is 
wonderful for spare-time contributors, or people who just want to make 
something better for their own use.  I have been amazed and very impressed 
by what I have been able to get for free.  That massive free-software code 
base creates opportunities for developers -- they don't have to start from 
nothing because a lot of what they want is freely available to them, at 
least if they are willing to stick with GPL.

What will the future bring?  It seems like nearly everyone believes that 
the next phase will be about smaller devices and ubiquitous computing, and 
that is where most development is occuring today -- tablets, smart phones, 
wireless (WiFi, G4, etc) connectivity.  The big corporations behind all of 
this want a lot of interaction with "the cloud," which means that they 
will be storing a *lot* of information about you -- your physical 
location, identities of your contacts, what you like, which web pages you 
go to, where you eat dinner, etc.  Google is even collecting your DNA 
(23andMe), if you'll let them!  I would like for people to use their own 
Linux server as their personal "cloud", allowing for backup and other 
kinds of information transfer while limiting sharing of info with 
corporations.  I guess the corporations don't want that because they've 
done away with the old kind of "syncing" with the home computer.

The NSA revelations should help Linux.

Mike


On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Rick Engebretson wrote:

> 1980 was a scary time. Nobody knew how to get our economy going. We had 
> some (Altair) microcomputer stuff in Otto Schmitt's lab, but I never got 
> access because the VietNam vets hogged it. My chem lab had a PDP11, 
> pre-Unix, hooked to a teletype, and computer automation was a big push. 
> I don't think I was important starting the internet, but I never knew 
> anybody else pushing it earlier, and I still don't believe it. I believe 
> it was like crowd-funding, everybody just pushed their weight and we all 
> made something move.
>
> So here we are again, a country in debt, uncertain future. And now 
> everything runs on computers. Iran is still in the news. The 
> environment, too.
>
> And now we have a truly amazing open source Linux, on all kinds of 
> hardware. I sincerely believe we will need better computer skills if we 
> hope to compete. Cars, power plants, factories, all industries will need 
> computer (Linux) skills.
>
> TCLUG should be where leaders grow.

From john.a.frisk at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 14:08:30 2013
From: john.a.frisk at gmail.com (John Frisk)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:08:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <CAFE18KWXyuPhWvD2oiyoWfMvgTB6kaRvCVfAG0V0yENPZkabqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
 <CAFE18KWXyuPhWvD2oiyoWfMvgTB6kaRvCVfAG0V0yENPZkabqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAvSaRqy2fT5aHNPzHyav8E8xggGM-dv7+U24qXLBnF7SCuJmg@mail.gmail.com>

Having helped out to run the Penguins Unbound group I like the ideas
Michael and Erik have proposed.  Even though Penguins Unbound has had
InstallFests centered around Ubuntu, we just had our InstallFest in
November and there was Mint, Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. all tried out.  I believe
there will always be a place for activities like that in which one could
say it falls in the eco-system of Linux.
Going forward there are several great ideas proposed for future topics
(ZFS, Puppet) for the group.   These will not be Ubuntu or even Linux
specific per se but have ties the IT professional community in general (and
happen to run on Linux).

I would support meeting in January to refocus the group.  I think the
mailing list serves its purpose for a casual question/communication vehicle
but I am unaware if the TCLUG has met (other than to occasional social
event).

I would even propose a straw man that really centers around the IT
professional community that has tracks (like a conference).
These tracks could include something like: applied languages (java, ruby,
php), operating system focus (android, BSD, et. all), scripting/automation,
etc.  Each track could meet whenever it wanted assuming some volunteer to
manage said track.  There are already groups that have this focus and maybe
they would (if they wished) coordinate and/or run the track. In short, I'm
proposing that while a Linux User Group is definitely a piece of the fabric
of the IT community, the fabric is rich and should be flexible to the other
pieces of fabric to promote computing in general.  The refocus could help
bring out the focus around Linux and what is needed by our community in the
Twin Cities.

Count me in to be willing to assist.



On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com>wrote:

> There seemed to be a great deal of interest in desktop Linux 10 to 15
>> years ago. Local Linux events were well attendend. Apple was languishing
>> and a lot of smart people were trying to do what they could to avoid
>> Microsoft's apparent monopoly of everything.
>>
>
> 10 years ago you pretty much needed local Linux support because you were
> going to have some sort of install problem. If you were coming from Windows
> you might not have ISO burning software so even getting a CD might be
> difficult. If you got past install, you might need to compile a kernel to
> get support for some specific piece of hardware.
>
> Users coming into Linux now are likely to discover it online, discover
> support communities online and ask for help in distro-specific forums
> instead of joining a local LUG.
>
> But these days? Look around. It would appear desktop Linux is increasingly
>> becoming more and more obscure as people move on to their Macs, iPads,
>> iPhones and Android devices.
>>
>> Who runs Linux on the desktop these days? A few Unix graybeards (myself
>> included) and some stubborn idealists. All the cool kids have MacBook Pros.
>>
>> Ironically, in many ways, given the rise of the web and the corresponding
>> reduction in importance of the Windows based application ecosystem, it's
>> never been a better time to run Linux on the desktop. We've got a few high
>> quality web browers and email clients at our disposal. PC hardware to run
>> Linux on has never been more affordable. And Linux installs in a breeze.
>>
>
> I think Linux use has become more mainstream, and users aren't and don't
> have to be as vocal about it. I heard a discussion between non-technical
> people at church a while back about the merits of Mint vs. Ubuntu. Some of
> the people installing Linux today are the ones who 10 years ago would've
> been called on to remove adware from a relative's computer.
>
> 10 years ago, the local LUG (at least where I was) was also the primary
> place to go to for other technical help like scripting, web development,
> tech job hunts and other things that aren't strictly Linux related. The LUG
> was simply the watering hole for local tech savvy population. (REALLY Off
> topic material had to have "OT" in the subject line). If you're going to
> get into scripting today you might be better off joining a Python or Ruby
> mailing list rather than one focused on Linux.
>
> If Linux and tech users are headed to distro/topic specific support groups
> it does raise the question of what the purpose of a local LUG is. If it's
> just to hang out online and handle the occasional Linux related email, then
> the current state of the mailing list probably mostly fine. If we want to
> have a more defined purpose then Erik's proposed January meeting sound like
> an important chance to refocus the group.
>
> --
> Michael Moore
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/af1e708a/attachment.html>

From lkateley at kateley.com  Mon Nov 25 14:11:43 2013
From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:11:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <CAAvSaRqy2fT5aHNPzHyav8E8xggGM-dv7+U24qXLBnF7SCuJmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
 <CAFE18KWXyuPhWvD2oiyoWfMvgTB6kaRvCVfAG0V0yENPZkabqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAvSaRqy2fT5aHNPzHyav8E8xggGM-dv7+U24qXLBnF7SCuJmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5293AEFF.8060509@kateley.com>

If you would like to have a speaker on zfs, that is my area of expertise.

lk

On 11/25/13 2:08 PM, John Frisk wrote:
> Having helped out to run the Penguins Unbound group I like the ideas 
> Michael and Erik have proposed.  Even though Penguins Unbound has had 
> InstallFests centered around Ubuntu, we just had our InstallFest in 
> November and there was Mint, Fedora, Ubuntu, etc. all tried out. I 
> believe there will always be a place for activities like that in which 
> one could say it falls in the eco-system of Linux.
> Going forward there are several great ideas proposed for future topics 
> (ZFS, Puppet) for the group.   These will not be Ubuntu or even Linux 
> specific per se but have ties the IT professional community in general 
> (and happen to run on Linux).
>
> I would support meeting in January to refocus the group.  I think the 
> mailing list serves its purpose for a casual question/communication 
> vehicle but I am unaware if the TCLUG has met (other than to 
> occasional social event).
>
> I would even propose a straw man that really centers around the IT 
> professional community that has tracks (like a conference).
> These tracks could include something like: applied languages (java, 
> ruby, php), operating system focus (android, BSD, et. all), 
> scripting/automation, etc.  Each track could meet whenever it wanted 
> assuming some volunteer to manage said track.  There are already 
> groups that have this focus and maybe they would (if they wished) 
> coordinate and/or run the track. In short, I'm proposing that while a 
> Linux User Group is definitely a piece of the fabric of the IT 
> community, the fabric is rich and should be flexible to the other 
> pieces of fabric to promote computing in general.  The refocus could 
> help bring out the focus around Linux and what is needed by our 
> community in the Twin Cities.
>
> Count me in to be willing to assist.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:30 PM, Michael Moore <stuporglue at gmail.com 
> <mailto:stuporglue at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         There seemed to be a great deal of interest in desktop Linux
>         10 to 15 years ago. Local Linux events were well attendend.
>         Apple was languishing and a lot of smart people were trying to
>         do what they could to avoid Microsoft's apparent monopoly of
>         everything.
>
>
>     10 years ago you pretty much needed local Linux support because
>     you were going to have some sort of install problem. If you were
>     coming from Windows you might not have ISO burning software so
>     even getting a CD might be difficult. If you got past install, you
>     might need to compile a kernel to get support for some specific
>     piece of hardware.
>
>     Users coming into Linux now are likely to discover it online,
>     discover support communities online and ask for help in
>     distro-specific forums instead of joining a local LUG.
>
>         But these days? Look around. It would appear desktop Linux is
>         increasingly becoming more and more obscure as people move on
>         to their Macs, iPads, iPhones and Android devices.
>
>         Who runs Linux on the desktop these days? A few Unix
>         graybeards (myself included) and some stubborn idealists. All
>         the cool kids have MacBook Pros.
>
>         Ironically, in many ways, given the rise of the web and the
>         corresponding reduction in importance of the Windows based
>         application ecosystem, it's never been a better time to run
>         Linux on the desktop. We've got a few high quality web browers
>         and email clients at our disposal. PC hardware to run Linux on
>         has never been more affordable. And Linux installs in a breeze.
>
>
>     I think Linux use has become more mainstream, and users aren't and
>     don't have to be as vocal about it. I heard a discussion between
>     non-technical people at church a while back about the merits of
>     Mint vs. Ubuntu. Some of the people installing Linux today are the
>     ones who 10 years ago would've been called on to remove adware
>     from a relative's computer.
>
>     10 years ago, the local LUG (at least where I was) was also the
>     primary place to go to for other technical help like scripting,
>     web development, tech job hunts and other things that aren't
>     strictly Linux related. The LUG was simply the watering hole for
>     local tech savvy population. (REALLY Off topic material had to
>     have "OT" in the subject line). If you're going to get into
>     scripting today you might be better off joining a Python or Ruby
>     mailing list rather than one focused on Linux.
>
>     If Linux and tech users are headed to distro/topic specific
>     support groups it does raise the question of what the purpose of a
>     local LUG is. If it's just to hang out online and handle the
>     occasional Linux related email, then the current state of the
>     mailing list probably mostly fine. If we want to have a more
>     defined purpose then Erik's proposed January meeting sound like an
>     important chance to refocus the group.
>
>     --
>     Michael Moore
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/43c930bd/attachment-0001.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 14:25:27 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:25:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <5293AEFF.8060509@kateley.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
 <CAFE18KWXyuPhWvD2oiyoWfMvgTB6kaRvCVfAG0V0yENPZkabqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAvSaRqy2fT5aHNPzHyav8E8xggGM-dv7+U24qXLBnF7SCuJmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5293AEFF.8060509@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251420180.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Linda Kateley wrote:

> If you would like to have a speaker on zfs, that is my area of 
> expertise.

I definitely would vote in favor of that.  Thanks for offering.

As part of that presentation, I would especially like to hear about how to 
get ZFS working on Linux.  It seems like the ZFS license prevents some 
kinds of packaging because it is incompatible with GPL.

Mike

From robotsondrugs at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 14:25:34 2013
From: robotsondrugs at gmail.com (Andrew Berg)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:25:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <5293AEFF.8060509@kateley.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
 <CAFE18KWXyuPhWvD2oiyoWfMvgTB6kaRvCVfAG0V0yENPZkabqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAvSaRqy2fT5aHNPzHyav8E8xggGM-dv7+U24qXLBnF7SCuJmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5293AEFF.8060509@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <5293B23E.7060408@gmail.com>

On 2013.11.25 14:11, Linda Kateley wrote:
> If you would like to have a speaker on zfs, that is my area of expertise.
Thomas Lunde is already presenting on ZFS in an upcoming meeting and I offered to join him, but the more, the merrier!
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2013-November/064078.html

From john.a.frisk at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 14:32:41 2013
From: john.a.frisk at gmail.com (John Frisk)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:32:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <5293B23E.7060408@gmail.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
 <CAFE18KWXyuPhWvD2oiyoWfMvgTB6kaRvCVfAG0V0yENPZkabqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAvSaRqy2fT5aHNPzHyav8E8xggGM-dv7+U24qXLBnF7SCuJmg@mail.gmail.com>
 <5293AEFF.8060509@kateley.com> <5293B23E.7060408@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAvSaRo8TYYAVmzLyB-J4HNTFxZycjf7uu0gP6T2wOwzWK+k3w@mail.gmail.com>

Yes Thomas Lunde has volunteered to speak in January at the Penguins
Unbound meeting.  I encourage everyone to join.  More to come once I get a
moment to update the website and agenda for 2013.


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 2:25 PM, Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs at gmail.com>wrote:

> On 2013.11.25 14:11, Linda Kateley wrote:
> > If you would like to have a speaker on zfs, that is my area of expertise.
> Thomas Lunde is already presenting on ZFS in an upcoming meeting and I
> offered to join him, but the more, the merrier!
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2013-November/064078.html
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/2467c808/attachment.html>

From blutgens at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 14:36:06 2013
From: blutgens at gmail.com (Ben)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:36:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CANoiwe47++D8RLTJC6=8Rz-HWybYkP53E7i7=Hu0shuECiwRSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

>  I do keep one Windows box for the odd program that won't run on Linux.


That's what VMs are for =)


-- 
Ben Lutgens
Linux / Unix System Administrator

Three of your friends throw up after eating chicken salad.  Do you think:
"I should find more robust friends" or "we should check that refrigerator"?
       -- Donald Becker, on vortex-bug, suspecting a network-wide problem
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/82e7a7aa/attachment.html>

From eng at pinenet.com  Mon Nov 25 14:54:10 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 14:54:10 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <CF654FD7-2BAF-4F9D-B9E1-310125F17DD4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5293B8F2.7050208@pinenet.com>

Interesting gentleman.

My interests are very selfish. My daughter has been an engineer with 
Apple, in China. They have some serious environmental issues that are a 
health concern, among many other things.

I noticed Apple has opened a campus in Texas. Why did the Twin Cities 
stop being interested in industry? I remember Honeywell, Univac, 3M, and 
a very long list of others. The level of automation required in 
manufacturing now could yet again return industry to Minnesota.

I live in the boondocs now, and guys my age shoveled the dairy barn 
before school, while today even milking is automated. Who is changing 
the world for the better now? If you can't do industrial automation with 
Linux you might need to put down your cell phone and grab a shovel 
again, or go hungry.

Warren Jacobson wrote:
> Interesting comments.
>
> There seemed to be a great deal of interest in desktop Linux 10 to 15 years ago. Local Linux events were well attendend. Apple was languishing and a lot of smart people were trying to do what they could to avoid Microsoft's apparent monopoly of everything.
>
> But these days? Look around. It would appear desktop Linux is increasingly becoming more and more obscure as people move on to their Macs, iPads, iPhones and Android devices.
>
> Who runs Linux on the desktop these days? A few Unix graybeards (myself included) and some stubborn idealists. All the cool kids have MacBook Pros.
>
> Ironically, in many ways, given the rise of the web and the corresponding reduction in importance of the Windows based application ecosystem, it's never been a better time to run Linux on the desktop. We've got a few high quality web browers and email clients at our disposal. PC hardware to run Linux on has never been more affordable. And Linux installs in a breeze.
>
> whj
>
> On Nov 25, 2013, at 10:55 AM, Rick Engebretson<eng at pinenet.com>  wrote:
>
>> 1980 was a scary time. Nobody knew how to get our economy going. We had some (Altair) microcomputer stuff in Otto Schmitt's lab, but I never got access because the VietNam vets hogged it. My chem lab had a PDP11, pre-Unix, hooked to a teletype, and computer automation was a big push.
>> I don't think I was important starting the internet, but I never knew anybody else pushing it earlier, and I still don't believe it. I believe it was like crowd-funding, everybody just pushed their weight and we all made something move.
>>
>> So here we are again, a country in debt, uncertain future. And now everything runs on computers. Iran is still in the news. The environment, too.
>>
>> And now we have a truly amazing open source Linux, on all kinds of hardware. I sincerely believe we will need better computer skills if we hope to compete. Cars, power plants, factories, all industries will need computer (Linux) skills.
>>
>> TCLUG should be where leaders grow.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 15:42:56 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:42:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <CANoiwe47++D8RLTJC6=8Rz-HWybYkP53E7i7=Hu0shuECiwRSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <CANoiwe47++D8RLTJC6=8Rz-HWybYkP53E7i7=Hu0shuECiwRSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251538450.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Ben wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>  I do keep one Windows box for the odd program that won't run on Linux.
>
> That's what VMs are for =)


Yes, but I've had occasional problems.  I was using VirtualBox and left an 
XP instance running for awhile, and forgot about it, but it eventually 
took down the whole system!  It's safer to get it out of the Linux box 
altogether.  I value the stability of Linux, but running Windows inside of 
Linux jeopardize that.  I still use XP in Vbox sometimes, but with 
trepidation.  I prefer to use a separate machine with some kind of remote 
control between them (e.g., VNC) and sharing of disk drives.

Mike

From erikerik at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 15:46:53 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 15:46:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251538450.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <CANoiwe47++D8RLTJC6=8Rz-HWybYkP53E7i7=Hu0shuECiwRSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251538450.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CADdM08oitD1BTSbxzhN-M+z-4rFkJ8LoyJvxrL1MTheN73hqYQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 3:42 PM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, but I've had occasional problems.  I was using VirtualBox and left an
> XP instance running for awhile, and forgot about it, but it eventually took
> down the whole system!  It's safer to get it out of the Linux box
> altogether.  I value the stability of Linux, but running Windows inside of
> Linux jeopardize that.  I still use XP in Vbox sometimes, but with
> trepidation.  I prefer to use a separate machine with some kind of remote
> control between them (e.g., VNC) and sharing of disk drives.


Well that would either be an issue with Virtualbox or how you had the VM
configured (perhaps taking up too many resources?).

Having a VM crash, no matter the guest OS, should *never* take down the
host. If it does, that's a virtualization layer issue.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/5c9a0bf3/attachment-0001.html>

From jjensen at apache.org  Mon Nov 25 16:09:45 2013
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:09:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEF=n0_d0qShiFEgPSvmUhUTXBp=pExiFsKyLp68ykmaqg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF=n0_d0qShiFEgPSvmUhUTXBp=pExiFsKyLp68ykmaqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBz47bkFytRcsPHk5R4GN70WvArg8_sNBjkOuS2WogRy4Q@mail.gmail.com>

You bet!


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:36 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> @JeffJensen:
> Do you think Intertech would be willing to host a TCLUG meeting in
> early January? I'd like to propose electing officers, setting goals
> for the year, and giving the group a purpose.
>
> I really appreciate Rick's email. It makes me realize that being a
> group gives us an opportunity, that we have been failing to seize, and
> that we also have a responsibility to our community. There is a lot we
> could do if we worked together to reach out to a younger generation,
> and I think it would be a great thing for the group to do.
>
> One of the items for the agenda would be email list moderation. Who?
> How? What are the rules?
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -Erik
>
> On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:22 AM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> It's not really doing much harm, in my opinion, and to the extent that
> >> it is, I think a person who is a moderator could email someone
> >> off-list and ask them to stop, and if they don't, then ban them from
> >> the list, or take away privileges, or whatever.
> >
> >
> > It's about respect - both of the individuals on this list and the
> purpose of
> > the list itself. No one likes being preached at, and especially not
> within
> > the context of technical conversation. There are indeed places where
> > preaching/ranting/whatever are appropriate. Technical mailing lists are
> not
> > one of those places.
> >
> > Agreed, though, I would be perfectly happy if a mod would reach out to
> > people personally - that's exactly what should happen. We just haven't
> heard
> > anything, which communicates implicitly that off-topic, divisive
> behavior is
> > tolerated.
> >
> >>
> >> I'd prefer to err on the side of inclusion. This isn't an IEEE mailing
> >> list, it's a LUG mailing list. A small one at that, for a group that
> >> hardly ever meets, and when it does, it meets for beer. I'm actually
> >> less annoyed by trolling than I am at seeing experienced interneters
> >> feeding the trolls*, and then getting mad that their inbox is being
> >> flooded with nonsense.
> >
> >
> > I think we're all perfectly capable of ignoring trolls. It's an essential
> > skill. That doesn't mean that trolling is an acceptable behavior, or that
> > which should be allowed.
> >
> > I've been in far too many communities, technical and otherwise, where
> > off-topic, disrespectful behavior was tolerated and in *every* instance,
> the
> > community disintegrated. I don't want that for TCLUG. I want to attract
> > *more* people here, but with the current drama level, no one in their
> right
> > mind is going to sign up to be preached at regularly. There are plenty of
> > other well-run mailing lists, forums, etc. where they can go.
> >
> > I was actually somewhat saddened while talking to people at the AWS
> > re:Invent conference a few weeks ago. I would mention that I'm from the
> Twin
> > Cities, and they'd ask how the technical community is in this area. I
> > explained that we have a *lot* of technical folks here, both on the
> software
> > development side as well as the sysadmin/operations side, but that the
> > opportunities to gather and exchange ideas are few and far between. I
> would
> > absolutely *love* to see TCLUG (and other local groups like it) flourish.
> > One key thing that will help this happen is indeed to cut out (as much as
> > possible) discussion and/or members that will alienate people. Cripes,
> > perhaps I'm one of those, and if so then so be it. I'd hope that's not
> the
> > case, though.
> >
> >>
> >> Perhaps enough of us care that we should reassign responsibilities to
> >> people who might be interested in more active leadership? Should we
> >> have a new group of moderators? Should we elect a new
> >> president/supreme ruler?
> >
> >
> > +1. I'd at least like to hear who is on the mod list currently. If those
> > people are not actively involved on the list, then things should be
> switched
> > up.
> >
> > -Erik
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/b2774ea9/attachment.html>

From eng at pinenet.com  Mon Nov 25 16:06:23 2013
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:06:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <5293C9DF.2070601@pinenet.com>

Very interesting, Mike.

The only thing I did with the PDP11 was get it to read the paper tape 
output from the scintillation counter, then do a curve fitting program 
that was previously all done by hand on a calculator. So I sort of knew 
computers and got a job in the NMR lab when they were doing 
FastFourierTransforms, and hoping to invent some imaging.

But I had gotten physically strong lugging around heavy research 
journals at the various libraries around campus. So it was only natural 
that I move to the country and lug firewood instead when I burned out.

You are right, some few sucked the money out of computing. But I forget 
who they are, now that Arduino programs over Linux.

Mike Miller wrote:
> I was using the PDP-11 at WPI in 1976, but that was a very challenging
> system compared to what came a few years later. There were no monitors,
> just teletypes. It was very painful to write program on that thing!
>
> As a scientist, I see no substitute for Linux. OS X just isn't going to
> cut it for me, but on a laptop computer or desktop machine, maybe OS X
> has potential. I'm not going to find out because Linux is working for me
> everywhere. I do keep one Windows box for the odd program that won't run
> on Linux.
>
> The Free Software model seems also to be working great in the sciences
> and I think it is performing very well for operating systems, too. The
> big problem with it is that programmers have to make a living somehow,
> but writing a great program with no bugs that just works with minimal
> documentation doesn't seem to pay back much if it can't be sold, not
> even if 100 million people are using it. Fame is nice, but it won't put
> your kids through college, buy you a house or pay for dinner.
>
> That said, Linux is a great OS for programmers and for programming
> cooperatively in groups to produce some really nice software. It is
> wonderful for spare-time contributors, or people who just want to make
> something better for their own use. I have been amazed and very
> impressed by what I have been able to get for free. That massive
> free-software code base creates opportunities for developers -- they
> don't have to start from nothing because a lot of what they want is
> freely available to them, at least if they are willing to stick with GPL.
>
> What will the future bring? It seems like nearly everyone believes that
> the next phase will be about smaller devices and ubiquitous computing,
> and that is where most development is occuring today -- tablets, smart
> phones, wireless (WiFi, G4, etc) connectivity. The big corporations
> behind all of this want a lot of interaction with "the cloud," which
> means that they will be storing a *lot* of information about you -- your
> physical location, identities of your contacts, what you like, which web
> pages you go to, where you eat dinner, etc. Google is even collecting
> your DNA (23andMe), if you'll let them! I would like for people to use
> their own Linux server as their personal "cloud", allowing for backup
> and other kinds of information transfer while limiting sharing of info
> with corporations. I guess the corporations don't want that because
> they've done away with the old kind of "syncing" with the home computer.
>
> The NSA revelations should help Linux.
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Rick Engebretson wrote:
>
>> 1980 was a scary time. Nobody knew how to get our economy going. We
>> had some (Altair) microcomputer stuff in Otto Schmitt's lab, but I
>> never got access because the VietNam vets hogged it. My chem lab had a
>> PDP11, pre-Unix, hooked to a teletype, and computer automation was a
>> big push. I don't think I was important starting the internet, but I
>> never knew anybody else pushing it earlier, and I still don't believe
>> it. I believe it was like crowd-funding, everybody just pushed their
>> weight and we all made something move.
>>
>> So here we are again, a country in debt, uncertain future. And now
>> everything runs on computers. Iran is still in the news. The
>> environment, too.
>>
>> And now we have a truly amazing open source Linux, on all kinds of
>> hardware. I sincerely believe we will need better computer skills if
>> we hope to compete. Cars, power plants, factories, all industries will
>> need computer (Linux) skills.
>>
>> TCLUG should be where leaders grow.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug at freakzilla.com  Mon Nov 25 16:36:48 2013
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 16:36:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Moving forward with Linux.
In-Reply-To: <5293C9DF.2070601@pinenet.com>
References: <529380E6.3090705@pinenet.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311251344280.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <5293C9DF.2070601@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1311251626210.5672@cockerel.yaron.org>

Great, now you guys got me getting all Old Timey.

When I was in high school I couldn't get into the Super Smart Kids class 
because my math grades were horrible, but I had a lot of friends in that 
class. And they had access to the BIG computer. Which was some kind of VAX 
system. And they let me use their accounts. Which was fun but I wanted my 
own account, because I wanted to change the prompt into a crocodile.

I went to the school principal and said "Hey I know I'm not in that class, 
but I am very interested in computers and would like VAX access. Here are 
some people who will vouch for me" (which included some friends and the 
main sysadmin).

The principle said no VAX access, but I could have an account on the PDP.

I don't think it was a PDP11. I think it was a PDP4. I didn't really know 
how to do anything with it - all I got was a username and password. You 
could not change your prompt to a crocodile!

The next year of school we actually had "Computer" classes. We all got PDP 
accounts (and they were kind of surprised I already had one) and... taught 
BASIC. I already knew BASIC. Eventually the teacher got mad at me 
correcting his "code" (which he had on a chalkboard) and told me to just 
show up for the tests.

Before that, though, I tried to show the other kids in my class how they 
can copy files between accounts. You know, so one person could do the 
homework and everyone else could copy it. This was before anyone really 
had computetrs unless you were a nerd (I was). So they culd not figure 
it out.

I went back to using my friends' accounts on the VAX system. Least I knew 
how to get that one to talk C.


On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Rick Engebretson wrote:

> Very interesting, Mike.
>
> The only thing I did with the PDP11 was get it to read the paper tape output 
> from the scintillation counter, then do a curve fitting program that was 
> previously all done by hand on a calculator. So I sort of knew computers and 
> got a job in the NMR lab when they were doing FastFourierTransforms, and 
> hoping to invent some imaging.
>
> But I had gotten physically strong lugging around heavy research journals at 
> the various libraries around campus. So it was only natural that I move to 
> the country and lug firewood instead when I burned out.
>
> You are right, some few sucked the money out of computing. But I forget who 
> they are, now that Arduino programs over Linux.
>
> Mike Miller wrote:
>> I was using the PDP-11 at WPI in 1976, but that was a very challenging
>> system compared to what came a few years later. There were no monitors,
>> just teletypes. It was very painful to write program on that thing!
>> 
>> As a scientist, I see no substitute for Linux. OS X just isn't going to
>> cut it for me, but on a laptop computer or desktop machine, maybe OS X
>> has potential. I'm not going to find out because Linux is working for me
>> everywhere. I do keep one Windows box for the odd program that won't run
>> on Linux.
>> 
>> The Free Software model seems also to be working great in the sciences
>> and I think it is performing very well for operating systems, too. The
>> big problem with it is that programmers have to make a living somehow,
>> but writing a great program with no bugs that just works with minimal
>> documentation doesn't seem to pay back much if it can't be sold, not
>> even if 100 million people are using it. Fame is nice, but it won't put
>> your kids through college, buy you a house or pay for dinner.
>> 
>> That said, Linux is a great OS for programmers and for programming
>> cooperatively in groups to produce some really nice software. It is
>> wonderful for spare-time contributors, or people who just want to make
>> something better for their own use. I have been amazed and very
>> impressed by what I have been able to get for free. That massive
>> free-software code base creates opportunities for developers -- they
>> don't have to start from nothing because a lot of what they want is
>> freely available to them, at least if they are willing to stick with GPL.
>> 
>> What will the future bring? It seems like nearly everyone believes that
>> the next phase will be about smaller devices and ubiquitous computing,
>> and that is where most development is occuring today -- tablets, smart
>> phones, wireless (WiFi, G4, etc) connectivity. The big corporations
>> behind all of this want a lot of interaction with "the cloud," which
>> means that they will be storing a *lot* of information about you -- your
>> physical location, identities of your contacts, what you like, which web
>> pages you go to, where you eat dinner, etc. Google is even collecting
>> your DNA (23andMe), if you'll let them! I would like for people to use
>> their own Linux server as their personal "cloud", allowing for backup
>> and other kinds of information transfer while limiting sharing of info
>> with corporations. I guess the corporations don't want that because
>> they've done away with the old kind of "syncing" with the home computer.
>> 
>> The NSA revelations should help Linux.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Rick Engebretson wrote:
>> 
>>> 1980 was a scary time. Nobody knew how to get our economy going. We
>>> had some (Altair) microcomputer stuff in Otto Schmitt's lab, but I
>>> never got access because the VietNam vets hogged it. My chem lab had a
>>> PDP11, pre-Unix, hooked to a teletype, and computer automation was a
>>> big push. I don't think I was important starting the internet, but I
>>> never knew anybody else pushing it earlier, and I still don't believe
>>> it. I believe it was like crowd-funding, everybody just pushed their
>>> weight and we all made something move.
>>> 
>>> So here we are again, a country in debt, uncertain future. And now
>>> everything runs on computers. Iran is still in the news. The
>>> environment, too.
>>> 
>>> And now we have a truly amazing open source Linux, on all kinds of
>>> hardware. I sincerely believe we will need better computer skills if
>>> we hope to compete. Cars, power plants, factories, all industries will
>>> need computer (Linux) skills.
>>> 
>>> TCLUG should be where leaders grow.
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From rick at tanners.org  Mon Nov 25 17:51:45 2013
From: rick at tanners.org (Richard Tanner)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 17:51:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEH=UiD2jtVGqH5RdPzGjiBFQ_dXXzeneBrLSj3ERreGZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF=n0_d0qShiFEgPSvmUhUTXBp=pExiFsKyLp68ykmaqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEH=UiD2jtVGqH5RdPzGjiBFQ_dXXzeneBrLSj3ERreGZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5293E291.2080602@tanners.org>


(From memory...) For the first time in many years a list subscriber has
been asked to refrain from certain actions by list subscribers in some
way or another [1], then basically the same request from a semi-official
capacity three years later [2] for a repeat offense.

And now this is reason for a heavier handed approach for content
moderation and dare I say, "control" ?

IMO, the moderator(s) are quiet because the list, for all these years,
has taken care of and moderated itself.

But, this is a community - if more stringent moderation of the mailing
list is wanted, then the community can/should discuss and decide on that.


[1] =
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2010-November/059208.html

[2] =
http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2013-November/064178.html



From whjwhj at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 18:01:13 2013
From: whjwhj at gmail.com (Warren Jacobson)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 18:01:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <5293E291.2080602@tanners.org>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF=n0_d0qShiFEgPSvmUhUTXBp=pExiFsKyLp68ykmaqg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEH=UiD2jtVGqH5RdPzGjiBFQ_dXXzeneBrLSj3ERreGZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <5293E291.2080602@tanners.org>
Message-ID: <981386EF-466C-4209-8C70-D87238A15FF0@gmail.com>

Richard's point is excellent. I was thinking it but didn't have the guts to bring it up.

whj

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 25, 2013, at 5:51 PM, Richard Tanner <rick at tanners.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> (From memory...) For the first time in many years a list subscriber has
> been asked to refrain from certain actions by list subscribers in some
> way or another [1], then basically the same request from a semi-official
> capacity three years later [2] for a repeat offense.
> 
> And now this is reason for a heavier handed approach for content
> moderation and dare I say, "control" ?
> 
> IMO, the moderator(s) are quiet because the list, for all these years,
> has taken care of and moderated itself.
> 
> But, this is a community - if more stringent moderation of the mailing
> list is wanted, then the community can/should discuss and decide on that.
> 
> 
> [1] =
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2010-November/059208.html
> 
> [2] =
> http://archives.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/2013-November/064178.html
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From droidjd at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 18:12:08 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 18:12:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdwbrnZFAosv_Tjek3ikT45cHk5f25zSGbSSodroVY+VUg@mail.gmail.com>

> flourish. One key thing that will help this happen is indeed to cut out (as
> much as possible) discussion and/or members that will alienate people.
> Cripes, perhaps I'm one of those, and if so then so be it. I'd hope that's
> not the case, though

And let's not let our biases dictate what alienates people.  A couple
of the responses to the event in question were pretty harsh (including
jabs against religion) -- To anyone who may be religious on the list,
seeing crap like that is just as likely to drive them away as someone
who's non-religious being preached to.

Just my two cents. :-)

-Andrew

From jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org  Mon Nov 25 21:11:42 2013
From: jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org (Joseph Key)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:11:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
Message-ID: <5294116E.3050304@tomobiki.dyndns.org>

I use Password Safe, it has clients that work in Windows, Linux, iOS, 
and Android. I put the file on Dropbox so it is available to all the 
devices with connected.

On 11/25/2013 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:
> Thanks to those of you who suggested KeePass2 for generating and saving good secure passwords for the desktop/laptop environment.  As a result, I can use a different password that is long and randomly generated for each of my accounts.  I recommend KeePass2 to all of my Facebook friends.
>
> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?  Typing on a smartphone is a slow and error-prone process for me simply because the ergonomics fall far short of what a laptop or desktop can provide.  This makes it impossible to use good, secure passwords.  (Then again, I don't do any financial transactions on my smartphone.)
>


From jmore at starmind.org  Mon Nov 25 21:17:22 2013
From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 21:17:22 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <5294116E.3050304@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
 <5294116E.3050304@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <CAB3GUt8aCvfWg1raazjZtbwFORUhth3aaNrV7x5sv3LwHOFXVg@mail.gmail.com>

I use KeePass2 on my smartphone.  I sync the keypass file to it
periodically.


-Josh More


On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 9:11 PM, Joseph Key <jkey at tomobiki.dyndns.org>wrote:

> I use Password Safe, it has clients that work in Windows, Linux, iOS, and
> Android. I put the file on Dropbox so it is available to all the devices
> with connected.
>
> On 11/25/2013 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:
>
>> Thanks to those of you who suggested KeePass2 for generating and saving
>> good secure passwords for the desktop/laptop environment.  As a result, I
>> can use a different password that is long and randomly generated for each
>> of my accounts.  I recommend KeePass2 to all of my Facebook friends.
>>
>> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?
>>  Typing on a smartphone is a slow and error-prone process for me simply
>> because the ergonomics fall far short of what a laptop or desktop can
>> provide.  This makes it impossible to use good, secure passwords.  (Then
>> again, I don't do any financial transactions on my smartphone.)
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131125/c32a2004/attachment.html>

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 22:04:16 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:04:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Centos 6 - Best filesystem for > 16TB
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdyY1nW6O=Pc-FtamFWW73d4AegM5rsG4pQ0PRBm6uC=mA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5260852F.80804@gmail.com>
 <CAFjzMdyY1nW6O=Pc-FtamFWW73d4AegM5rsG4pQ0PRBm6uC=mA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <52941DC0.3010901@gmail.com>

On 10/17/2013 8:46 PM, Andrew Dahl wrote::
> I do XFS development for work, so my bias says XFS :-)
>
> It's actually going to be the default filesystem on RHEL7 and has
> comparable performance to ext3/4 (except it scales)
>
> But yeah, ZFS wouldn't be a bad choice.

I took your advice, and used XFS on a 18TB filesystem (hardware raid 10) 
that I plan on using for backup storage.  I've been busy as of late at 
work so I haven't put this box into production yet.

I have noticed that there seems to be an awful lot of disk activity 
while the box just sits there idling.  Is this normal for XFS?

The box is Centos 6.4 minimal install.

Just curious if this is normal before I go poking around looking for 
answers.

Thanks!








From droidjd at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 22:18:25 2013
From: droidjd at gmail.com (Andrew Dahl)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:18:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Centos 6 - Best filesystem for > 16TB
In-Reply-To: <52941DC0.3010901@gmail.com>
References: <5260852F.80804@gmail.com>
 <CAFjzMdyY1nW6O=Pc-FtamFWW73d4AegM5rsG4pQ0PRBm6uC=mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52941DC0.3010901@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFjzMdxJ_ZQGFJfsxC61iXbvdROVYSqQnR-=sRM-p_QW4LBzFA@mail.gmail.com>

Hmm... depends on how much I/O you're seeing.  Idling, I really
wouldn't expect to see /too/ much.  Is it possible the raid is doing
something?

I'd probably try to look into where it's coming from exactly.  I
wouldn't say excessive IO is normal on XFS though.

-Andrew

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:04 PM, B-o-B De Mars <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10/17/2013 8:46 PM, Andrew Dahl wrote::
>>
>> I do XFS development for work, so my bias says XFS :-)
>>
>>
>> It's actually going to be the default filesystem on RHEL7 and has
>> comparable performance to ext3/4 (except it scales)
>>
>> But yeah, ZFS wouldn't be a bad choice.
>
>
> I took your advice, and used XFS on a 18TB filesystem (hardware raid 10)
> that I plan on using for backup storage.  I've been busy as of late at work
> so I haven't put this box into production yet.
>
> I have noticed that there seems to be an awful lot of disk activity while
> the box just sits there idling.  Is this normal for XFS?
>
> The box is Centos 6.4 minimal install.
>
> Just curious if this is normal before I go poking around looking for
> answers.
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From gsker at skerbitz.org  Mon Nov 25 22:26:38 2013
From: gsker at skerbitz.org (gsker)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:26:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <5294116E.3050304@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
 <5294116E.3050304@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1311252224210.19472@thealeph.net>

I too use Password Safe on my android device and just about every place I 
need a password safe.

And there's a command line extractor for it. 
https://github.com/sakhnik/gpwsafe

On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Joseph Key wrote:

> I use Password Safe, it has clients that work in Windows, Linux, iOS, and 
> Android. I put the file on Dropbox so it is available to all the devices with 
> connected.
>
> On 11/25/2013 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:
>> Thanks to those of you who suggested KeePass2 for generating and saving 
>> good secure passwords for the desktop/laptop environment.  As a result, I 
>> can use a different password that is long and randomly generated for each 
>> of my accounts.  I recommend KeePass2 to all of my Facebook friends.
>> 
>> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?  Typing 
>> on a smartphone is a slow and error-prone process for me simply because the 
>> ergonomics fall far short of what a laptop or desktop can provide.  This 
>> makes it impossible to use good, secure passwords.  (Then again, I don't do 
>> any financial transactions on my smartphone.)
>> 
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Mon Nov 25 22:44:46 2013
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars)
Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2013 22:44:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Centos 6 - Best filesystem for > 16TB
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdxJ_ZQGFJfsxC61iXbvdROVYSqQnR-=sRM-p_QW4LBzFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <5260852F.80804@gmail.com>
 <CAFjzMdyY1nW6O=Pc-FtamFWW73d4AegM5rsG4pQ0PRBm6uC=mA@mail.gmail.com>
 <52941DC0.3010901@gmail.com>
 <CAFjzMdxJ_ZQGFJfsxC61iXbvdROVYSqQnR-=sRM-p_QW4LBzFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5294273E.5060106@gmail.com>

On 11/25/2013 10:18 PM, Andrew Dahl wrote::
> Hmm... depends on how much I/O you're seeing.  Idling, I really
> wouldn't expect to see /too/ much.  Is it possible the raid is doing
> something?
>
> I'd probably try to look into where it's coming from exactly.  I
> wouldn't say excessive IO is normal on XFS though.
>
> -Andrew

Understood.  Could be the raid, or something else.

I just wanted to confirm that this was not normal behavior before I proceed.

Thanks!


From mastercactapus at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 00:11:00 2013
From: mastercactapus at gmail.com (Nathan Caza)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:11:00 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Secure passwords on smartphones
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1311252224210.19472@thealeph.net>
References: <20131125002123.50ac867e0434e621675a06f8@jasonhsu.com>
 <5294116E.3050304@tomobiki.dyndns.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.10.1311252224210.19472@thealeph.net>
Message-ID: <CAGtvEUCjbdK+mbeG4kysgoe_FQPfS7K3z15g3-GhDhwGQzfYSA@mail.gmail.com>

I use KeepassX (v2 beta) with SpiderOak on everything including my android.
Just make sure to set it to save after every change (or don't forget to hit
save when changing a pass)




On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 10:26 PM, gsker <gsker at skerbitz.org> wrote:

> I too use Password Safe on my android device and just about every place I
> need a password safe.
>
> And there's a command line extractor for it. https://github.com/sakhnik/
> gpwsafe
>
>
> On Mon, 25 Nov 2013, Joseph Key wrote:
>
>  I use Password Safe, it has clients that work in Windows, Linux, iOS, and
>> Android. I put the file on Dropbox so it is available to all the devices
>> with connected.
>>
>> On 11/25/2013 12:21 AM, Jason Hsu wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks to those of you who suggested KeePass2 for generating and saving
>>> good secure passwords for the desktop/laptop environment.  As a result, I
>>> can use a different password that is long and randomly generated for each
>>> of my accounts.  I recommend KeePass2 to all of my Facebook friends.
>>>
>>> What solution do you use for good secure passwords on a smartphone?
>>>  Typing on a smartphone is a slow and error-prone process for me simply
>>> because the ergonomics fall far short of what a laptop or desktop can
>>> provide.  This makes it impossible to use good, secure passwords.  (Then
>>> again, I don't do any financial transactions on my smartphone.)
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>  _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131126/f374d42c/attachment.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 00:24:22 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 00:24:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Moderators around?
In-Reply-To: <CAFjzMdwbrnZFAosv_Tjek3ikT45cHk5f25zSGbSSodroVY+VUg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08rTrjsNgoVudx6Ay_WdkAQLmMDK-1tR5ELqD9xdcMyq_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+OhcJQC7ef7v-34LWPiE2TAyeCLUk_z-kU1K-HogY2VKA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFd9r0iE0BcsvxNK1cJvPK_edi7RKVf5iyNudL2WSxZnA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pK6Ejh1OghS5CWUfC=gMv307pvfMC+zFJ3K-D2mdc+1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFjzMdwbrnZFAosv_Tjek3ikT45cHk5f25zSGbSSodroVY+VUg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311260022410.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

The problem isn't really with the initial troublesome postings, it's all 
the reactions and discussions that follow.  If we could send them messages 
off-list and ignore them on-list, I think that would greatly reduce the 
problem.

Mike

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 13:08:27 2013
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:08:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>

I'm looking for some chat software to use on my website.
A few years ago I tried something called Zopim, but didn't like it.
Its "dashboard'" wouldn't work right after I would visit a site like
http://wsj.com.    There was another time when there was
someone that wanted to chat, but I wasn't able to chat with
them though I tried to accept the request.

I want to pay less than $50 for this. Can you recommend anything?
Thanks in advance.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - Shalom
http://webEbenezer.net
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131126/47f9c779/attachment.html>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 13:53:47 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 13:53:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm looking for some chat software to use on my website.


I've had good luck with Openfire[1]. It's an XMPP-compliant chat server, so
you can use it with any XMPP client. But also, they have a "webchat"
add-on[2], which allows anonymous users to open up a chat window and then
be connected with an agent to field their questions. I implemented this for
a local university library helpdesk, and it has been working well for them
for several years now.

-Erik

[1] http://www.radiolab.org/story/poop-train/
[2] It's called "Fastpath", and is easily-locatable via a google search. It
doesn't appear that Fastpath actually has its own page, though.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131126/5bb5083c/attachment.html>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Tue Nov 26 14:02:34 2013
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:02:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>

What?s that plugin called? I haven?t seen it.

On Nov 26, 2013, at 1:53 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 1:08 PM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm looking for some chat software to use on my website.
> 
> I've had good luck with Openfire[1]. It's an XMPP-compliant chat server, so you can use it with any XMPP client. But also, they have a "webchat" add-on[2], which allows anonymous users to open up a chat window and then be connected with an agent to field their questions. I implemented this for a local university library helpdesk, and it has been working well for them for several years now.
> 
> -Erik
> 
> [1] http://www.radiolab.org/story/poop-train/
> [2] It's called "Fastpath", and is easily-locatable via a google search. It doesn't appear that Fastpath actually has its own page, though.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131126/7c9a202f/attachment.html>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 14:38:27 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:38:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:

> What?s that plugin called? I haven?t seen it.
>

It's called "Fastpath".
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131126/5fb1dab6/attachment.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 14:42:57 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:42:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
 <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>

And what was citation #1 in reference to?

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:38 PM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Ryan Coleman <ryanjcole at me.com> wrote:
>>
>> What?s that plugin called? I haven?t seen it.
>
>
> It's called "Fastpath".
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From erikerik at gmail.com  Tue Nov 26 14:49:49 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2013 14:49:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
 <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08pGZsAu1=fb1VHGo27Rpb3h7TzVAMxcs9ptFU0tuJfsOA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> And what was citation #1 in reference to?
>

Hahahaha. Classic copy/paste fail. Interestingly enough, the Radiolab
episode I linked to is quite interesting, and worth a listen. It's about
the sheer amount of solid, um, waste that NYC generates and what they had
to do to figure out how to deal with it.

I *meant* to link to the official Openfire site:
http://www.igniterealtime.org/projects/openfire/

My bad everyone. :)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131126/80377041/attachment-0001.html>

From mbmiller+l at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 03:03:06 2013
From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 03:03:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08pGZsAu1=fb1VHGo27Rpb3h7TzVAMxcs9ptFU0tuJfsOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
 <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pGZsAu1=fb1VHGo27Rpb3h7TzVAMxcs9ptFU0tuJfsOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311270302200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>

On Tue, 26 Nov 2013, Erik Anderson wrote:

> On Tue, Nov 26, 2013 at 2:42 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> And what was citation #1 in reference to?
>
> Hahahaha. Classic copy/paste fail. Interestingly enough, the Radiolab 
> episode I linked to is quite interesting, and worth a listen. It's about 
> the sheer amount of solid, um, waste that NYC generates and what they 
> had to do to figure out how to deal with it.
>
> I *meant* to link to the official Openfire site:
> http://www.igniterealtime.org/projects/openfire/
>
> My bad everyone. :)


Funny.  I thought you meant for it to be a humorous comment on the quality 
of the software.

Mike

From erikerik at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 10:50:06 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:50:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311270302200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
 <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pGZsAu1=fb1VHGo27Rpb3h7TzVAMxcs9ptFU0tuJfsOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311270302200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <CADdM08oi6McpvdSpOiL4XCxJSsrUyoeJCTeS+gKChiVv-NyY7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 3:03 AM, Mike Miller <mbmiller+l at gmail.com> wrote:

> Funny.  I thought you meant for it to be a humorous comment on the quality
> of the software.
>

Hah, nope. I certainly had a few issues with the software, but it's not so
bad as to be deserving of that description. :)

As an aside, I prefer ejabberd for "simple" XMPP deployments where the more
advanced agent/queuing functionality offered by Openfire isn't needed.
We're using ejabberd to great success at my current gig to communicate
among staff, and it's one of the few pieces of software that "just works" -
I rarely need to give it any thought.

-Erik
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131127/47fc71c9/attachment.html>

From erikerik at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 10:58:36 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 10:58:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Possible meeting topic/presentation
Message-ID: <CADdM08p9qp+fuuu=oXg9FcEU1MyKkZDMSYPpGMgQHyzAravD4g@mail.gmail.com>

I've been doing a *lot* of work with both AWS Cloudformation[1] and
Ansible[2] lately, and have found both to be delightful to work with.

I'd be willing to put together a meeting presentation on either or both of
these at some point early next year if there's interest.

Cloudformation may not be as applicable, as I'm not sure how many folks on
the list are actually working in AWS, but Ansible (or at least *some*
configuration management system) is something that IMHO every *nix user
ought to be using, even if it's for a single system.

So, would anyone be interested in hearing about either of these
technologies?

Derp,
Erik

[1] http://aws.amazon.com/cloudformation/
[2] https://github.com/ansible/ansible
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131127/db2c711b/attachment.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 11:04:33 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:04:33 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08oi6McpvdSpOiL4XCxJSsrUyoeJCTeS+gKChiVv-NyY7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
 <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pGZsAu1=fb1VHGo27Rpb3h7TzVAMxcs9ptFU0tuJfsOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311270302200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <CADdM08oi6McpvdSpOiL4XCxJSsrUyoeJCTeS+gKChiVv-NyY7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEHpd=wgE53BEWoQ0Mtxw5u+6fxUS9tp7RtMaJUOJyeKZw@mail.gmail.com>

> As an aside, I prefer ejabberd for "simple" XMPP deployments where the more
> advanced agent/queuing functionality offered by Openfire isn't needed. We're
> using ejabberd to great success at my current gig to communicate among
> staff, and it's one of the few pieces of software that "just works" - I
> rarely need to give it any thought.

Do you think XMPP is a better route than IRC?

-Erik
-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From erikerik at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 11:14:42 2013
From: erikerik at gmail.com (Erik Anderson)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:14:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEHpd=wgE53BEWoQ0Mtxw5u+6fxUS9tp7RtMaJUOJyeKZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
 <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pGZsAu1=fb1VHGo27Rpb3h7TzVAMxcs9ptFU0tuJfsOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311270302200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <CADdM08oi6McpvdSpOiL4XCxJSsrUyoeJCTeS+gKChiVv-NyY7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEHpd=wgE53BEWoQ0Mtxw5u+6fxUS9tp7RtMaJUOJyeKZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADdM08rrB6dYRphe071ndcGB3AR=gk5RAzyH+RT_sNJBLqnR6A@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> Do you think XMPP is a better route than IRC?


My personal preference is IRC. In our case, though, there are many
non-technical people that need to be involved, and are much more
familiar/comfortable with instant messaging. XMPP can still provide for
IRC-style chat rooms, and if you really want, curses-based XMPP clients are
available as well. :)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131127/36112706/attachment.html>

From erik.mitchell at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 12:21:06 2013
From: erik.mitchell at gmail.com (Erik Mitchell)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 12:21:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Possible meeting topic/presentation
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08p9qp+fuuu=oXg9FcEU1MyKkZDMSYPpGMgQHyzAravD4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08p9qp+fuuu=oXg9FcEU1MyKkZDMSYPpGMgQHyzAravD4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANNReEFg44acSQ-HaNBW2=q0Mt_PL5k4e0jV9QLPBQVpAw+djA@mail.gmail.com>

I would!

On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com> wrote:
> I've been doing a *lot* of work with both AWS Cloudformation[1] and
> Ansible[2] lately, and have found both to be delightful to work with.
>
> I'd be willing to put together a meeting presentation on either or both of
> these at some point early next year if there's interest.
>
> Cloudformation may not be as applicable, as I'm not sure how many folks on
> the list are actually working in AWS, but Ansible (or at least *some*
> configuration management system) is something that IMHO every *nix user
> ought to be using, even if it's for a single system.
>
> So, would anyone be interested in hearing about either of these
> technologies?
>
> Derp,
> Erik
>
> [1] http://aws.amazon.com/cloudformation/
> [2] https://github.com/ansible/ansible
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>



-- 
Erik K. Mitchell
erik.mitchell at gmail.com

From mastercactapus at gmail.com  Wed Nov 27 18:25:27 2013
From: mastercactapus at gmail.com (Nathan Caza)
Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 18:25:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Possible meeting topic/presentation
In-Reply-To: <CANNReEFg44acSQ-HaNBW2=q0Mt_PL5k4e0jV9QLPBQVpAw+djA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CADdM08p9qp+fuuu=oXg9FcEU1MyKkZDMSYPpGMgQHyzAravD4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEFg44acSQ-HaNBW2=q0Mt_PL5k4e0jV9QLPBQVpAw+djA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAGtvEUDxo+y=Q_Ma5JjWoGs-yUT=oaqKOkT6ZfjP-vP8-PnwoQ@mail.gmail.com>

Count me in


On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 12:21 PM, Erik Mitchell <erik.mitchell at gmail.com>wrote:

> I would!
>
> On Wed, Nov 27, 2013 at 10:58 AM, Erik Anderson <erikerik at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I've been doing a *lot* of work with both AWS Cloudformation[1] and
> > Ansible[2] lately, and have found both to be delightful to work with.
> >
> > I'd be willing to put together a meeting presentation on either or both
> of
> > these at some point early next year if there's interest.
> >
> > Cloudformation may not be as applicable, as I'm not sure how many folks
> on
> > the list are actually working in AWS, but Ansible (or at least *some*
> > configuration management system) is something that IMHO every *nix user
> > ought to be using, even if it's for a single system.
> >
> > So, would anyone be interested in hearing about either of these
> > technologies?
> >
> > Derp,
> > Erik
> >
> > [1] http://aws.amazon.com/cloudformation/
> > [2] https://github.com/ansible/ansible
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Erik K. Mitchell
> erik.mitchell at gmail.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20131127/cf806925/attachment.html>

From chewie at wookimus.net  Fri Nov 29 00:43:52 2013
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 00:43:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Chat software
In-Reply-To: <CADdM08rrB6dYRphe071ndcGB3AR=gk5RAzyH+RT_sNJBLqnR6A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuCPr9d-r9_XeE6ay9RV-fKD5e+HG7nFXDeXOoRjRzprw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08og4WMS38RJVJYMC-QmkSOCpQfgncZafutJGZ36TN7D9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5863A560-B85F-43D4-AAF3-A5FB5AF55E44@me.com>
 <CADdM08oCvz8rSqgmwRmaju7WGeE5HWPLvqLTCCto5CR1V1ThjQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEF0mSDxQ4dnN3Ku6eLshKLFoRDDuVS8ThbqMHeVP_fb0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08pGZsAu1=fb1VHGo27Rpb3h7TzVAMxcs9ptFU0tuJfsOA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1311270302200.27414@taxa.psych.umn.edu>
 <CADdM08oi6McpvdSpOiL4XCxJSsrUyoeJCTeS+gKChiVv-NyY7g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANNReEHpd=wgE53BEWoQ0Mtxw5u+6fxUS9tp7RtMaJUOJyeKZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CADdM08rrB6dYRphe071ndcGB3AR=gk5RAzyH+RT_sNJBLqnR6A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <87fvqfwvvb.wl%chewie@wookimus.net>

At Wed, 27 Nov 2013 11:14:42 -0600,
Erik Anderson wrote:
> My personal preference is IRC. In our case, though, there are many
> non-technical people that need to be involved, and are much more
> familiar/comfortable with instant messaging. XMPP can still provide
> for IRC-style chat rooms, and if you really want, curses-based XMPP
> clients are available as well. :)

My current toolkit includes bitlbee, for IM to IRC gateways, and ERC
(Emacs Relay Chat Mode).  Bitlbee supports common protocols like
Jabber, Google Chat (Jabber variant), Facebook Chat, and even Twitter
(though I find this to pale in comparison to twitter-mode), and it can
be used with any IRC chat client. Additionally, it'll support Off The
Record (OTR) for securing your communications over any of these chat
channels.

The one thing I very much like about this setup is that I don't ever
have to leave Emacs. :)

-- 
Chad