From mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com  Sun Jun  1 18:15:32 2014
From: mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com (Mark Mitchell)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 18:15:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] This Software RAID newbie's array is missing a drive.
Message-ID: <CAKLpivweTSqDOpZOgma2TrK7E2WWmO6s-YQD7=zU8d3XfTcDKQ@mail.gmail.com>

I built my first RAID array about a week ago, kinda vaguely
understanding what I'm doing.  4 3 TB drives in a RAID 5.  It's been
working fine, and I've been slowly filling it up.

Took the machine apart today to upgrade case cooling and power supply.
 When I brought it back up, I got this in the boot messages;

md/raid:md0: raid level 5 active with 3 out of 4 devices, algorithm 2

My 1st thought was that I didn't get everything hooked up (I had to
disconnect most of the drives to get the power connections on the
board), several reboots later, I'd confirmed that the system was
seeing all the drives;

root at debian:/var/log# lsblk
NAME        MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE  MOUNTPOINT
sda           8:0    0 931.5G  0 disk
??sda1        8:1    0    14G  0 part  /
??sda2        8:2    0  37.3G  0 part  [SWAP]
??sda3        8:3    0 880.3G  0 part  /home
sdb           8:16   0   2.7T  0 disk
??sdb1        8:17   0   2.7T  0 part
  ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
    ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
sdc           8:32   0   2.7T  0 disk
??sdc1        8:33   0   2.7T  0 part
sdd           8:48   0   2.7T  0 disk
??sdd1        8:49   0   2.7T  0 part
  ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
    ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
sde           8:64   0   2.7T  0 disk
??sde1        8:65   0   2.7T  0 part
  ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
    ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
sr0          11:0    1   7.3G  0 rom

So, it looks like the partition on sdc isn't being seen as a raid
partition anymore.

FWIW;
root at debian:/var/log# cat /proc/mdstat
Personalities : [raid6] [raid5] [raid4]
md0 : active raid5 sdb1[0] sde1[4] sdd1[2]
      8790405120 blocks super 1.2 level 5, 512k chunk, algorithm 2 [4/3] [U_UU]
      bitmap: 4/22 pages [16KB], 65536KB chunk

unused devices: <none>

So, what's my next step?  Looks to me like I need to recreate sdc1 as
a raid partition, then regrow the array.  Is this correct?

In the meantime, I'm reading what I can and copying data off the
array.  Nothing critical, but it'd be annoying to lose.

Let me know if I left out required information.

Thanks.
Mark

From marc at e-skinner.net  Sun Jun  1 19:08:50 2014
From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner)
Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2014 19:08:50 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] This Software RAID newbie's array is missing a
 drive.
Message-ID: <hwk0y3dj7in0pufjgafwfih4.1401667729699@email.android.com>

Have you tried to re-add the drive?

mdadm --add /dev/sdc1 /dev/md0

Please recheck the syntax I'm on my phone.?

Thanks.?

-------- Original message --------
From: Mark Mitchell <mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com> 
Date:06/01/2014  18:15  (GMT-06:00) 
To: tclug-list <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
Subject: [tclug-list] This Software RAID newbie's array is missing a drive. 

I built my first RAID array about a week ago, kinda vaguely
understanding what I'm doing.? 4 3 TB drives in a RAID 5.? It's been
working fine, and I've been slowly filling it up.

Took the machine apart today to upgrade case cooling and power supply.
When I brought it back up, I got this in the boot messages;

md/raid:md0: raid level 5 active with 3 out of 4 devices, algorithm 2

My 1st thought was that I didn't get everything hooked up (I had to
disconnect most of the drives to get the power connections on the
board), several reboots later, I'd confirmed that the system was
seeing all the drives;

root at debian:/var/log# lsblk
NAME??????? MAJ:MIN RM?? SIZE RO TYPE? MOUNTPOINT
sda?????????? 8:0??? 0 931.5G? 0 disk
??sda1??????? 8:1??? 0??? 14G? 0 part? /
??sda2??????? 8:2??? 0? 37.3G? 0 part? [SWAP]
??sda3??????? 8:3??? 0 880.3G? 0 part? /home
sdb?????????? 8:16?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 disk
??sdb1??????? 8:17?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 part
? ??md0?????? 9:0??? 0?? 8.2T? 0 raid5
??? ??md0p1 259:0??? 0?? 8.2T? 0 md??? /srv/media
sdc?????????? 8:32?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 disk
??sdc1??????? 8:33?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 part
sdd?????????? 8:48?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 disk
??sdd1??????? 8:49?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 part
? ??md0?????? 9:0??? 0?? 8.2T? 0 raid5
??? ??md0p1 259:0??? 0?? 8.2T? 0 md??? /srv/media
sde?????????? 8:64?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 disk
??sde1??????? 8:65?? 0?? 2.7T? 0 part
? ??md0?????? 9:0??? 0?? 8.2T? 0 raid5
??? ??md0p1 259:0??? 0?? 8.2T? 0 md??? /srv/media
sr0????????? 11:0??? 1?? 7.3G? 0 rom

So, it looks like the partition on sdc isn't being seen as a raid
partition anymore.

FWIW;
root at debian:/var/log# cat /proc/mdstat
Personalities : [raid6] [raid5] [raid4]
md0 : active raid5 sdb1[0] sde1[4] sdd1[2]
????? 8790405120 blocks super 1.2 level 5, 512k chunk, algorithm 2 [4/3] [U_UU]
????? bitmap: 4/22 pages [16KB], 65536KB chunk

unused devices: <none>

So, what's my next step?? Looks to me like I need to recreate sdc1 as
a raid partition, then regrow the array.? Is this correct?

In the meantime, I'm reading what I can and copying data off the
array.? Nothing critical, but it'd be annoying to lose.

Let me know if I left out required information.

Thanks.
Mark
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From danyberg at gmail.com  Sun Jun  1 20:48:37 2014
From: danyberg at gmail.com (swede)
Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2014 20:48:37 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] SCLUG still around?
Message-ID: <CAM-0Q0T8DUW6xH4615DZ5uduKyVQLQ+F2n+2xRrsRvdwzkkgGQ@mail.gmail.com>

>
>
> Date: Fri, 30 May 2014 15:36:05 -0500
> From: Steve Ruprecht <sjruprecht at gmail.com>
> To: tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> Subject: [tclug-list] SCLUG still around?
> Message-ID:
>         <CALb_yGNuHd5h+fq2VG5zAca+smPTtF84f3tZ=75td6+jM=
> aUQA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Does anyone know if the Saint Cloud Linux user group is still
> meeting/active?
>
> If there is a group: Anyone have any contacts?
>
> If there isn't a group: Anyone in the SC area want to start meeting up?
>
> -Steve
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20140530/aba71ce6/attachment-0001.html
> >
>
>

I think I could hold of them if I tried, I know they were a small group of
friends that decided it was easier tot hang out on IRC than maintain the
small list.


-- 
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem;
government is the problem."  - Ronald Reagan

 <><
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From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com  Mon Jun  2 13:12:35 2014
From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars)
Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2014 13:12:35 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] This Software RAID newbie's array is missing a
	drive.
In-Reply-To: <CAKLpivweTSqDOpZOgma2TrK7E2WWmO6s-YQD7=zU8d3XfTcDKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKLpivweTSqDOpZOgma2TrK7E2WWmO6s-YQD7=zU8d3XfTcDKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <538CBE93.2070604@gmail.com>

On 6/1/2014 6:15 PM, Mark Mitchell wrote::
> I built my first RAID array about a week ago, kinda vaguely
> understanding what I'm doing.  4 3 TB drives in a RAID 5.  It's been
> working fine, and I've been slowly filling it up.
>
> Took the machine apart today to upgrade case cooling and power supply.
>   When I brought it back up, I got this in the boot messages;
>
> md/raid:md0: raid level 5 active with 3 out of 4 devices, algorithm 2
>
> My 1st thought was that I didn't get everything hooked up (I had to
> disconnect most of the drives to get the power connections on the
> board), several reboots later, I'd confirmed that the system was
> seeing all the drives;
>
> root at debian:/var/log# lsblk
> NAME        MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE  MOUNTPOINT
> sda           8:0    0 931.5G  0 disk
> ??sda1        8:1    0    14G  0 part  /
> ??sda2        8:2    0  37.3G  0 part  [SWAP]
> ??sda3        8:3    0 880.3G  0 part  /home
> sdb           8:16   0   2.7T  0 disk
> ??sdb1        8:17   0   2.7T  0 part
>    ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
>      ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
> sdc           8:32   0   2.7T  0 disk
> ??sdc1        8:33   0   2.7T  0 part
> sdd           8:48   0   2.7T  0 disk
> ??sdd1        8:49   0   2.7T  0 part
>    ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
>      ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
> sde           8:64   0   2.7T  0 disk
> ??sde1        8:65   0   2.7T  0 part
>    ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
>      ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
> sr0          11:0    1   7.3G  0 rom
>
> So, it looks like the partition on sdc isn't being seen as a raid
> partition anymore.
>
> FWIW;
> root at debian:/var/log# cat /proc/mdstat
> Personalities : [raid6] [raid5] [raid4]
> md0 : active raid5 sdb1[0] sde1[4] sdd1[2]
>        8790405120 blocks super 1.2 level 5, 512k chunk, algorithm 2 [4/3] [U_UU]
>        bitmap: 4/22 pages [16KB], 65536KB chunk
>
> unused devices: <none>
>
> So, what's my next step?  Looks to me like I need to recreate sdc1 as
> a raid partition, then regrow the array.  Is this correct?
>
> In the meantime, I'm reading what I can and copying data off the
> array.  Nothing critical, but it'd be annoying to lose.
>
> Let me know if I left out required information.
>

do a mdadm --detail /dev/md0   (or md* for all), and look for the failed 
device\partition#

*Adjust the below to your config*

First fail the drive
sudo mdadm /dev/md0 -f /dev/sdc1fdisk /dev/sdb

Then remove the drive
sudo mdadm /dev/md0 -r /dev/sdc1

To re-add an out of sink partition
I just "sudo mdadm --manage --re-add /dev/md0 /dev/sdc1"

To check rebuilt status

watch cat /proc/mdstat

Done.

Good Luck!

From mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com  Mon Jun  2 20:21:23 2014
From: mark.russel.mitchell at gmail.com (Mark Mitchell)
Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 20:21:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] This Software RAID newbie's array is missing a
	drive.
In-Reply-To: <538CBE93.2070604@gmail.com>
References: <CAKLpivweTSqDOpZOgma2TrK7E2WWmO6s-YQD7=zU8d3XfTcDKQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <538CBE93.2070604@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKLpivxq_PvCyCyXqNJQKBQBHCr8kvPx+d0+J+5TM6fK0wKJjw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks BoB.  That got me running (after I cleaned up some of my own mess).
The problem I had running your commands was that, in following some
other directions, I'd removed and recreated the partition on /dev/sdc.
 The new one I created wasn't the correct size (too small).

Resolved that by;

sgdisk --backup=table /dev/sdb
sgdisk --load-backup=table /dev/sdc
sgdisk -G /dev/sdc

Once the --re-add command completed successfully, I was able to 'mdadm
--assemble --scan'

The array is rebuilding now;

Personalities : [raid6] [raid5] [raid4]
md0 : active raid5 sdc1[1] sdb1[0] sde1[4] sdd1[2]
      8790405120 blocks super 1.2 level 5, 512k chunk, algorithm 2 [4/3] [U_UU]
      [>....................]  recovery =  3.3% (97349984/2930135040)
finish=545.3min speed=86578K/sec
      bitmap: 9/22 pages [36KB], 65536KB chunk

unused devices: <none>

Thanks for the help, BoB and Marc

On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 1:12 PM, B-o-B De Mars <mr.chew.baka at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6/1/2014 6:15 PM, Mark Mitchell wrote::
>
>> I built my first RAID array about a week ago, kinda vaguely
>> understanding what I'm doing.  4 3 TB drives in a RAID 5.  It's been
>> working fine, and I've been slowly filling it up.
>>
>> Took the machine apart today to upgrade case cooling and power supply.
>>   When I brought it back up, I got this in the boot messages;
>>
>> md/raid:md0: raid level 5 active with 3 out of 4 devices, algorithm 2
>>
>> My 1st thought was that I didn't get everything hooked up (I had to
>> disconnect most of the drives to get the power connections on the
>> board), several reboots later, I'd confirmed that the system was
>> seeing all the drives;
>>
>> root at debian:/var/log# lsblk
>> NAME        MAJ:MIN RM   SIZE RO TYPE  MOUNTPOINT
>> sda           8:0    0 931.5G  0 disk
>> ??sda1        8:1    0    14G  0 part  /
>> ??sda2        8:2    0  37.3G  0 part  [SWAP]
>> ??sda3        8:3    0 880.3G  0 part  /home
>> sdb           8:16   0   2.7T  0 disk
>> ??sdb1        8:17   0   2.7T  0 part
>>    ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
>>      ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
>> sdc           8:32   0   2.7T  0 disk
>> ??sdc1        8:33   0   2.7T  0 part
>> sdd           8:48   0   2.7T  0 disk
>> ??sdd1        8:49   0   2.7T  0 part
>>    ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
>>      ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
>> sde           8:64   0   2.7T  0 disk
>> ??sde1        8:65   0   2.7T  0 part
>>    ??md0       9:0    0   8.2T  0 raid5
>>      ??md0p1 259:0    0   8.2T  0 md    /srv/media
>> sr0          11:0    1   7.3G  0 rom
>>
>> So, it looks like the partition on sdc isn't being seen as a raid
>> partition anymore.
>>
>> FWIW;
>> root at debian:/var/log# cat /proc/mdstat
>> Personalities : [raid6] [raid5] [raid4]
>> md0 : active raid5 sdb1[0] sde1[4] sdd1[2]
>>        8790405120 blocks super 1.2 level 5, 512k chunk, algorithm 2 [4/3]
>> [U_UU]
>>        bitmap: 4/22 pages [16KB], 65536KB chunk
>>
>> unused devices: <none>
>>
>> So, what's my next step?  Looks to me like I need to recreate sdc1 as
>> a raid partition, then regrow the array.  Is this correct?
>>
>> In the meantime, I'm reading what I can and copying data off the
>> array.  Nothing critical, but it'd be annoying to lose.
>>
>> Let me know if I left out required information.
>>
>
> do a mdadm --detail /dev/md0   (or md* for all), and look for the failed
> device\partition#
>
> *Adjust the below to your config*
>
> First fail the drive
> sudo mdadm /dev/md0 -f /dev/sdc1fdisk /dev/sdb
>
> Then remove the drive
> sudo mdadm /dev/md0 -r /dev/sdc1
>
> To re-add an out of sink partition
> I just "sudo mdadm --manage --re-add /dev/md0 /dev/sdc1"
>
> To check rebuilt status
>
> watch cat /proc/mdstat
>
> Done.
>
> Good Luck!
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From galanolwe at yahoo.com  Fri Jun  6 10:47:46 2014
From: galanolwe at yahoo.com (Olwe Bottorff)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 08:47:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
Message-ID: <1402069666.76300.YahooMailNeo@web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider (preferably a coop)? Storage doesn't have to be much. I mainly want to do stuff with Emacs and languages, hopefully installed to a home directory so I'm not locked into out-of-date versions. I'm on Bluehost.com now, but they're not very flexible, being mainly a Web provider.

Thanks,

LB
Grand Marais, MN
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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Fri Jun  6 10:59:55 2014
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 10:59:55 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9Bdpv_BWorQjnFB493cm0hjEZPwfjj9R5U34=MtShLoZQ@mail.gmail.com>

> Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider

tektonic $15/mo
last i knew there was a cheaper one offering bsd shell but i don't
recall the name

From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 11:12:07 2014
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 11:12:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9Bdpv_BWorQjnFB493cm0hjEZPwfjj9R5U34=MtShLoZQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9Bdpv_BWorQjnFB493cm0hjEZPwfjj9R5U34=MtShLoZQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO1LseQW+YJE_DmeS1qnoBJvNmeyRjwvvUMZuZkVNe3d4Q@mail.gmail.com>

sdf.org
--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:59 AM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
>> Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider
>
> tektonic $15/mo
> last i knew there was a cheaper one offering bsd shell but i don't
> recall the name
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 12:31:41 2014
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 12:31:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
In-Reply-To: <CACEdYO1LseQW+YJE_DmeS1qnoBJvNmeyRjwvvUMZuZkVNe3d4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9Bdpv_BWorQjnFB493cm0hjEZPwfjj9R5U34=MtShLoZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACEdYO1LseQW+YJE_DmeS1qnoBJvNmeyRjwvvUMZuZkVNe3d4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE95qKx-asnYGOMjpwJ91YCLRJB8nYyJt7MKDTTUYgYsWXz-ew@mail.gmail.com>

There's grex.org too -- free shell but IIRC it's Solaris not linux. And
slow.

-H
On Jun 6, 2014 11:12 AM, "Jeremy MountainJohnson" <
jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> sdf.org
> --
> Jeremy MountainJohnson
> Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:59 AM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> >> Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider
> >
> > tektonic $15/mo
> > last i knew there was a cheaper one offering bsd shell but i don't
> > recall the name
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From hpenner at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 12:35:23 2014
From: hpenner at gmail.com (Harry Penner)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 12:35:23 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
In-Reply-To: <CAE95qKx-asnYGOMjpwJ91YCLRJB8nYyJt7MKDTTUYgYsWXz-ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9Bdpv_BWorQjnFB493cm0hjEZPwfjj9R5U34=MtShLoZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACEdYO1LseQW+YJE_DmeS1qnoBJvNmeyRjwvvUMZuZkVNe3d4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE95qKx-asnYGOMjpwJ91YCLRJB8nYyJt7MKDTTUYgYsWXz-ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAE95qKzPURxtA--HKLxocNActuMoM0CD6OA4M_6acojHtS68Hg@mail.gmail.com>

Looks like it's OpenBSD now...  Been a while I guess.  :)

http://grex.org/faq.xhtml#whatrun

-H
On Jun 6, 2014 12:31 PM, "Harry Penner" <hpenner at gmail.com> wrote:

> There's grex.org too -- free shell but IIRC it's Solaris not linux. And
> slow.
>
> -H
> On Jun 6, 2014 11:12 AM, "Jeremy MountainJohnson" <
> jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > sdf.org
> > --
> > Jeremy MountainJohnson
> > Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:59 AM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> > >> Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider
> > >
> > > tektonic $15/mo
> > > last i knew there was a cheaper one offering bsd shell but i don't
> > > recall the name
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Fri Jun  6 13:00:25 2014
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 13:00:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
In-Reply-To: <CAE95qKx-asnYGOMjpwJ91YCLRJB8nYyJt7MKDTTUYgYsWXz-ew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9Bdpv_BWorQjnFB493cm0hjEZPwfjj9R5U34=MtShLoZQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACEdYO1LseQW+YJE_DmeS1qnoBJvNmeyRjwvvUMZuZkVNe3d4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAE95qKx-asnYGOMjpwJ91YCLRJB8nYyJt7MKDTTUYgYsWXz-ew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1406061300010.2828@cockerel.yaron.org>

Man, I misread your name in the funniest/nerdiest/omst embarrassing way.

On Fri, 6 Jun 2014, Harry Penner wrote:

> 
> There's grex.org too -- free shell but IIRC it's Solaris not linux. And
> slow.
> 
> -H
> On Jun 6, 2014 11:12 AM, "Jeremy MountainJohnson"
> <jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > sdf.org
> > --
> > Jeremy MountainJohnson
> > Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:59 AM, gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
> > >> Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider
> > >
> > > tektonic $15/mo
> > > last i knew there was a cheaper one offering bsd shell but i don't
> > > recall the name
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
>

From sethmiller.sm at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 13:08:32 2014
From: sethmiller.sm at gmail.com (Seth Miller)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 13:08:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
In-Reply-To: <1402069666.76300.YahooMailNeo@web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1402069666.76300.YahooMailNeo@web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEueRAVB=OJC9z5__3VgwF29+nwzmH=8xbD5sGUW+K7p=8-cBg@mail.gmail.com>

As Jeremy mentioned, sdf.org is probably the biggest one but there are
literally dozens of them around. There's a decent list compiled on
freeshells.info.


On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Olwe Bottorff <galanolwe at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider (preferably a
> coop)? Storage doesn't have to be much. I mainly want to do stuff with
> Emacs and languages, hopefully installed to a home directory so I'm not
> locked into out-of-date versions. I'm on Bluehost.com now, but they're not
> very flexible, being mainly a Web provider.
>
> Thanks,
>
> LB
> Grand Marais, MN
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From lkateley at kateley.com  Fri Jun  6 13:12:08 2014
From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2014 13:12:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
In-Reply-To: <CAEueRAVB=OJC9z5__3VgwF29+nwzmH=8xbD5sGUW+K7p=8-cBg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1402069666.76300.YahooMailNeo@web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEueRAVB=OJC9z5__3VgwF29+nwzmH=8xbD5sGUW+K7p=8-cBg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53920478.2040404@kateley.com>

I am really curious what you use a shell provider for?

linda

On 6/6/14, 1:08 PM, Seth Miller wrote:
> As Jeremy mentioned, sdf.org <http://sdf.org> is probably the biggest 
> one but there are literally dozens of them around. There's a decent 
> list compiled on freeshells.info <http://freeshells.info>.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Olwe Bottorff <galanolwe at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:galanolwe at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>
>     Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider
>     (preferably a coop)? Storage doesn't have to be much. I mainly
>     want to do stuff with Emacs and languages, hopefully installed to
>     a home directory so I'm not locked into out-of-date versions. I'm
>     on Bluehost.com now, but they're not very flexible, being mainly a
>     Web provider.
>
>     Thanks,
>
>     LB
>     Grand Marais, MN
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Fri Jun  6 19:34:46 2014
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2014 19:34:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
In-Reply-To: <53920478.2040404@kateley.com>
References: <1402069666.76300.YahooMailNeo@web140705.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <CAEueRAVB=OJC9z5__3VgwF29+nwzmH=8xbD5sGUW+K7p=8-cBg@mail.gmail.com>
 <53920478.2040404@kateley.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+NGbfUZ5R_+qtuRd18Ni__8xhp5wKF48f82HQKpgOq1yg@mail.gmail.com>

Irc bouncers and proxies are the only thing that jumps to mine. Beyond
that, I would grab a VPS from lowendbox.com for a couple bucks a month.
On Jun 6, 2014 1:20 PM, "Linda Kateley" <lkateley at kateley.com> wrote:

>  I am really curious what you use a shell provider for?
>
> linda
>
> On 6/6/14, 1:08 PM, Seth Miller wrote:
>
> As Jeremy mentioned, sdf.org is probably the biggest one but there are
> literally dozens of them around. There's a decent list compiled on
> freeshells.info.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Olwe Bottorff <galanolwe at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>>  Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider (preferably
>> a coop)? Storage doesn't have to be much. I mainly want to do stuff with
>> Emacs and languages, hopefully installed to a home directory so I'm not
>> locked into out-of-date versions. I'm on Bluehost.com now, but they're not
>> very flexible, being mainly a Web provider.
>>
>>  Thanks,
>>
>>  LB
>> Grand Marais, MN
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesotatclug-list at mn-linux.orghttp://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From jus at krytosvirus.com  Fri Jun  6 21:16:12 2014
From: jus at krytosvirus.com (Justin Krejci)
Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2014 21:16:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider?
References: <qj0y71113wopx4lysosmvnw4.1402107371675@email.android.com>
Message-ID: 1402107380623-002-00354925.jus.krytosvirus.com@192.168.1.39]

http://devious.us

OpenBSD + free shell.?

-------- Original message --------
From: Olwe Bottorff <galanolwe at yahoo.com> 
Date:06/06/2014  10:47 AM  (GMT-06:00) 
To: TCLUG List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> 
Subject: [tclug-list] Cheap or free shell account provider? 

Can anyone recommend a cheap or free shell account provider (preferably a coop)? Storage doesn't have to be much. I mainly want to do stuff with Emacs and languages, hopefully installed to a home directory so I'm not locked into out-of-date versions. I'm on Bluehost.com now, but they're not very flexible, being mainly a Web provider.

Thanks,

LB
Grand Marais, MN

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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Wed Jun 11 05:01:27 2014
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 05:01:27 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] zoom and reflow
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9Ay1oNhhgRga1Mc_r8qOMOU=+N0nvHxyAfwe19PUkd-cQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9Ay1oNhhgRga1Mc_r8qOMOU=+N0nvHxyAfwe19PUkd-cQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9DUK1tHYeOU4GBUJv9PYspp-22BkAeXHNt5xVc+5==kog@mail.gmail.com>

yay, maildroid can zoom and reflow!  are any android browsers still/again
standing that can also?  there is an "always zoom" addon for firefox, but
no reflow, unless something has emerged recently.  opera can reflow, but i
haven't found any "always zoom" for opera..
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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Wed Jun 11 05:03:21 2014
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2014 05:03:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] zoom and reflow
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9DUK1tHYeOU4GBUJv9PYspp-22BkAeXHNt5xVc+5==kog@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9Ay1oNhhgRga1Mc_r8qOMOU=+N0nvHxyAfwe19PUkd-cQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAD+dB9DUK1tHYeOU4GBUJv9PYspp-22BkAeXHNt5xVc+5==kog@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9As1spZVjkvWyJ3R3yLYvkQXX79uSbFFffU2Arzo15TJg@mail.gmail.com>

yay, maildroid can zoom and reflow!  are any android browsers still/again
standing that can also?  there is an "always zoom" addon for firefox, but
no reflow, unless something has emerged recently.  opera can reflow, but i
haven't found any "always zoom" for opera..
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 13 13:21:40 2014
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 18:21:40 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] IPsec again
Message-ID: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>

I've been thinking about IPsec recently after not
making much progress with it previously.  I'm
wondering how it would work with my current
configuration.  Currently I run both nginx and
my code generation service on the same machine.
I also use ssh to login remotely.   If you have IPsec
running on a server, do you still use ssh to login to
that machine?

I found this info

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11542322_29

It looks like the authors found some problems with IPsec.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
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From jay at slushpupie.com  Fri Jun 13 15:48:47 2014
From: jay at slushpupie.com (Jay Kline)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 15:48:47 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] IPsec again
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABDsHtm8k8fQubNswKo9K9Psv0c9ojJHituVyYmbNHKT+U04-w@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I've been thinking about IPsec recently after not
> making much progress with it previously.  I'm
> wondering how it would work with my current
> configuration.  Currently I run both nginx and
> my code generation service on the same machine.
> I also use ssh to login remotely.   If you have IPsec
> running on a server, do you still use ssh to login to
> that machine?
>
>
Yes, you would still use ssh, because its providing a slightly different
kind of security, and because its a standard.  IPSec can create a secure
tunnel between two systems, which gives confidentiality to the systems
regarding what services inside that tunnel are running.  Its a good(?)
solution for securing services that are not very security-aware.  SSH is
less general, an attacker will know exactly what service is running (though
not any tunneled services).  It still provides confidentiality, just at a
different level.  Also, IPSec authenticates systems to each other, whereas
ssh authenticates a user to a service, so its a different level of
accounting.

Another, perhaps more important, reason to continue using ssh is its a
standard, and its likely already there.  I wouldn't bother setting up
telnetd for an IPSec secured link since chances were I would need ssh
anyway at some point.  The double encryption on a terminal session is not
noticeable. I occasionally have double or triple ssh tunnels forwarding
https traffic, and its never caused me performance issues as long as Im not
trying to do bulk file transfers.

Jay
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From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Fri Jun 13 16:19:25 2014
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 16:19:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] IPsec again
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539B6ADD.2060900@cdf123.net>

On 06/13/14 13:21, Brian Wood wrote:
> I've been thinking about IPsec recently after not
> making much progress with it previously.  I'm
> wondering how it would work with my current
> configuration.  Currently I run both nginx and
> my code generation service on the same machine.
> I also use ssh to login remotely.   If you have IPsec
> running on a server, do you still use ssh to login to
> that machine?

I typically don't use ssh over ipsec.  ssh has pretty good security features already.  I mostly use it to secure ldap, and database connections.

It's also good for tunneling through services on an internal network from a dmz.  The firewall just needs to allow ipsec through, and then the 
host firewall on the internal server can handle the port, and ipsec authenticates the two servers.  So you can't just bring up a new device and 
get the same access because the device isn't authenticated to the internal server.

> I found this info
>
> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11542322_29
>
> It looks like the authors found some problems with IPsec.

I haven't read that yet, but the first page preview thing seems like it's confusing SSH with SSL.  May be a type-o.  The way it's referring to 
SSH doesn't sound right, where SSL would make more sense in it's place.

From tclug at beitsahour.net  Fri Jun 13 16:59:41 2014
From: tclug at beitsahour.net (Munir Nassar)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 16:59:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] IPsec again
In-Reply-To: <539B6ADD.2060900@cdf123.net>
References: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>
 <539B6ADD.2060900@cdf123.net>
Message-ID: <CAMg8xauA6C9KXXeR=uUMH_8S+YTcnBHHSW1cQRtYYVYpwdutzg@mail.gmail.com>

The general idea of IPsec(as i understand it) was to provide
end-to-end encryption on the transport layer. this was back in the
days when the application layer didn't have encryption on its
own(http, telnet, ftp). As such there is a way to use IPsec as a
transport layer for VPNs by tunneling all traffic that is not the
IPsec encrypted through the IPsec connection. This is used by services
like l2tp/ipsec or Cisco and is widely used.

Ultimately the primary purpose of IPsec is obsolete as (almost)all
application layer services that are capable of passing authentication
tokens also have an encryption layer either on a dedicated SSL port or
implemented natively(StartTLS). If you want to implement a VPN service
then there are better(IMHO) and easier to administer alternatives. I
recommend OpenVPN but SSH can work in a pinch.

Using both application layer encryption AND transport layer encryption
is (generally speaking) redundant.

On Fri, Jun 13, 2014 at 4:19 PM, Chris Frederick <cdf123 at cdf123.net> wrote:
> On 06/13/14 13:21, Brian Wood wrote:
>>
>> I've been thinking about IPsec recently after not
>> making much progress with it previously.  I'm
>> wondering how it would work with my current
>> configuration.  Currently I run both nginx and
>> my code generation service on the same machine.
>> I also use ssh to login remotely.   If you have IPsec
>> running on a server, do you still use ssh to login to
>> that machine?
>
>
> I typically don't use ssh over ipsec.  ssh has pretty good security features
> already.  I mostly use it to secure ldap, and database connections.
>
> It's also good for tunneling through services on an internal network from a
> dmz.  The firewall just needs to allow ipsec through, and then the host
> firewall on the internal server can handle the port, and ipsec authenticates
> the two servers.  So you can't just bring up a new device and get the same
> access because the device isn't authenticated to the internal server.
>
>
>> I found this info
>>
>> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11542322_29
>>
>> It looks like the authors found some problems with IPsec.
>
>
> I haven't read that yet, but the first page preview thing seems like it's
> confusing SSH with SSL.  May be a type-o.  The way it's referring to SSH
> doesn't sound right, where SSL would make more sense in it's place.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From random at argle.org  Fri Jun 13 18:15:19 2014
From: random at argle.org (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2014 18:15:19 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] IPsec again
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjsUu4rh1oz9mrWUzgfOXKJUGiaMAqjjEP7JqT_vVQ9LMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539B8607.10203@argle.org>

I always use ssh for remote shell access, no matter if I'm going over 
secure transport or not.

There's really no reason to use anything else.


On 06/13/2014 01:21 PM, Brian Wood wrote:
>
> I've been thinking about IPsec recently after not
> making much progress with it previously.  I'm
> wondering how it would work with my current
> configuration.  Currently I run both nginx and
> my code generation service on the same machine.
> I also use ssh to login remotely.   If you have IPsec
> running on a server, do you still use ssh to login to
> that machine?
>
> I found this info
>
> http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/11542322_29
>
> It looks like the authors found some problems with IPsec.
>
> -- 
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
> http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From kenlynes at usa.net  Sat Jun 14 00:43:28 2014
From: kenlynes at usa.net (Kenneth Lynes)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 00:43:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NDAS storage
Message-ID: <962sFNFQC1312S06.1402724608@web06.cms.usa.net>

I am fairly inept at using the command line and usually do ok when I install
software using the software manager thru the usual way from the repositories.
I have obtained some NETDISK DUO NewFAST - Enclosure 352UN which is made or
sold by IOCELL Networks. The original owner of the software put it in the
public domain, at least it says so on the website.

I have made an effort to understand how to install the software on my linux
mint 15 OS, but I am afraid to mess things up and cause a melt-down by
entering commands in the terminal. I no that linux does warn you of your
stupidity when typing in a command and will simply do what it is told. LOL

This thing is not a normal NAS so it has NO IP Address as such. It is
installed using software and I tried it first on my windows 7 machine and it
worked like a charm and I can see every drive (I have two of the units
installed on the network) and can do anything with the files as if they were
on my machine. Fast too I might add.
But when it came to doing this with linux I was really disappointed. No Gui to
use for sure. No repository with the software. I am told I have to download
the .tar file (which I did) and complile the software. 

This is a bit beyond my desire to inflict harm on my well-performing linux
machine. I have the steps to take via a couple of places I have been to and
printed the install steps out on paper, but I am way wary of carrying them
out. Probably so many errors it will not run but you never know.

If anyone has a way to do it easier via a gui, then let me know. A shame this
has not been developed by anyone in the last 3-1/2 years the software was made
public.

Ken Lynes


From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Sat Jun 14 08:32:10 2014
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 08:32:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] NDAS storage
In-Reply-To: <962sFNFQC1312S06.1402724608@web06.cms.usa.net>
References: <962sFNFQC1312S06.1402724608@web06.cms.usa.net>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO2fHr3=7KgBwOgsSHiTsxoiHV_0PRRcU6AbhATtcqrbGw@mail.gmail.com>

So from what I see online this thing has it's own LPX protocol (HDD
block dev over Ethernet) and there are two Git repos for necessary
kernel drivers and some user space tools (of which don't appear to
have been touched in a year). The drawback is there doesn't appear to
be support for newer kernels, even LTS is commonly at 3.10.

You don't really want to ruin your linux box, and although there is
some risk with kernel modules, it is lower than say, rolling a custom
kernel (which may even be necessary for these drivers). That low risk
being said for inserting an external module, I won't tell you what to
do, just offer suggestions :-)

It really boils down to the Linux kernel you're using and if you're
able to successfully compile the module (likely should be okay for
user space tools if module works). No pun intended but this is a very
modular process, I would recommend compiling the kernel drivers first
(to see if they work and play well when using insmod), then try to
compile and run the user space tools. Focus on dependencies for both
of these for the sake if getting it working; I didn't really look too
deep into those. Again, low risk of messing up your Linux box, you're
compiling and inserting a third party module that is entirely
removable if it causes problems.

Taking into account your whole viewpoint on this, why not run a
Windows box and serve the disk up over Windows file sharing and use
cifs in Linux? That would keep the disk management in a gui, while
only needing to learn some basic cifs mounting commands for the Linux
side.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do,
--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Sat, Jun 14, 2014 at 12:43 AM, Kenneth Lynes <kenlynes at usa.net> wrote:
> I am fairly inept at using the command line and usually do ok when I install
> software using the software manager thru the usual way from the repositories.
> I have obtained some NETDISK DUO NewFAST - Enclosure 352UN which is made or
> sold by IOCELL Networks. The original owner of the software put it in the
> public domain, at least it says so on the website.
>
> I have made an effort to understand how to install the software on my linux
> mint 15 OS, but I am afraid to mess things up and cause a melt-down by
> entering commands in the terminal. I no that linux does warn you of your
> stupidity when typing in a command and will simply do what it is told. LOL
>
> This thing is not a normal NAS so it has NO IP Address as such. It is
> installed using software and I tried it first on my windows 7 machine and it
> worked like a charm and I can see every drive (I have two of the units
> installed on the network) and can do anything with the files as if they were
> on my machine. Fast too I might add.
> But when it came to doing this with linux I was really disappointed. No Gui to
> use for sure. No repository with the software. I am told I have to download
> the .tar file (which I did) and complile the software.
>
> This is a bit beyond my desire to inflict harm on my well-performing linux
> machine. I have the steps to take via a couple of places I have been to and
> printed the install steps out on paper, but I am way wary of carrying them
> out. Probably so many errors it will not run but you never know.
>
> If anyone has a way to do it easier via a gui, then let me know. A shame this
> has not been developed by anyone in the last 3-1/2 years the software was made
> public.
>
> Ken Lynes
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Mon Jun 16 14:47:44 2014
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 14:47:44 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] chroot /proc/mounts
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9A10CcvQ28PRm34tC6YfyumkjYh5xrQQ1Hwm6Opnf89Dg@mail.gmail.com>

within either openvz or lxc containers /proc is available with things like
/proc/mounts with content appropriate for use within the container.  do i
presume correctly that nothing of the sort is available for a simple chroot?
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Wed Jun 18 17:16:55 2014
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 22:16:55 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Editing journalctl log
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuPY88RdiTbn_X82F62oZ--5E1F7pbLa9nCQmH7mK9wAA@mail.gmail.com>

Is there a way to delete a bunch of stuff from a
journalctl log?  I started a program that had a
problem and the same problem was logged over
and over again.  Now it takes a long time for
me to grep for things in the log and so on.
I've looked through the man page and done
some duckduckgoing, but haven't figured out
how to delete anything yet.  Thanks.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - So far G-d has helped us.
http://webEbenezer.net
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Wed Jun 18 20:43:20 2014
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 20:43:20 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] phamm/ubuntu 14.04LTS
Message-ID: <F0BEFEEE-5209-42AB-A6FB-470957C56D44@me.com>

After struggle after struggle trying to get things configured under BSD I gave up and tried a fourth platform. phamm-ldap-amavis showed the most promise, in fact I have it successfully working with one of my domains. However amavisd-new is not installed and when I try to install it manually it wants to uninstall phamm.

Has anyone had any experience with this? I subscribed to the phamm list but there are only 100 people on it so I don?t know if that?s going to be very fruitful.

Thanks,
Ryan

From jjensen at apache.org  Wed Jun 18 23:18:14 2014
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 23:18:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
Message-ID: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser
monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning on
CC 50/10.

I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip"
they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16
months (depends on price of course).

I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a
phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever
used DSL)

I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and N600
stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone capability.

I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but fine
if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.

So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for me?
 Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?


[0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
[1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
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From tclug at freakzilla.com  Wed Jun 18 23:28:07 2014
From: tclug at freakzilla.com (tclug at freakzilla.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 23:28:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.10.1406182327440.8767@cockerel.yaron.org>

On Wed, 18 Jun 2014, Jeff Jensen wrote:

> [yes, both are loser monopoly companies]

OXYMORON DETECTED.


From john.a.frisk at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 00:20:10 2014
From: john.a.frisk at gmail.com (John Frisk)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 00:20:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAvSaRqZav96ybWsB7R+_GF4t7LoqBrzgB11jvBZxmTWM+sVrA@mail.gmail.com>

If you plan on switching your landline to comcast they require a EMTA type
cable modem for which you must rent and cannot buy on your own. The rental
is $7/month I believe.
If you drop the landline and just do cable modem, you can get the Motorola
3008 series ( I think) from microcenter for about $70.
On Jun 18, 2014 11:25 PM, "Jeff Jensen" <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:

> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser
> monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning on
> CC 50/10.
>
> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip"
> they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16
> months (depends on price of course).
>
> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a
> phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever
> used DSL)
>
> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and N600
> stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone capability.
>
> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but
> fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for
> me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?
>
>
> [0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
> [1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 06:25:10 2014
From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 06:25:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAAvSaRqZav96ybWsB7R+_GF4t7LoqBrzgB11jvBZxmTWM+sVrA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAvSaRqZav96ybWsB7R+_GF4t7LoqBrzgB11jvBZxmTWM+sVrA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACEdYO2o8_xWp5kWjryQrdduPXWa390Te1f9NvFvZji1Dxy_2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Plus one for Motorola. I've had a SB6120 for years now and no
problems. It's not the latest, but DOCSIS 3 spec support and gigabit
Ethernet port on it will handle those speeds just fine.
--
Jeremy MountainJohnson
Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com


On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:20 AM, John Frisk <john.a.frisk at gmail.com> wrote:
> If you plan on switching your landline to comcast they require a EMTA type
> cable modem for which you must rent and cannot buy on your own. The rental
> is $7/month I believe.
> If you drop the landline and just do cable modem, you can get the Motorola
> 3008 series ( I think) from microcenter for about $70.
>
> On Jun 18, 2014 11:25 PM, "Jeff Jensen" <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:
>>
>> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser
>> monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning on
>> CC 50/10.
>>
>> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip"
>> they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16
>> months (depends on price of course).
>>
>> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a
>> phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever used
>> DSL)
>>
>> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and N600
>> stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone capability.
>>
>> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but
>> fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
>>
>> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for
>> me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?
>>
>>
>> [0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
>> [1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From ryanjcole at me.com  Thu Jun 19 06:42:16 2014
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 06:42:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3E88499A-9371-487B-8AC0-E8D1E0A9A222@me.com>

phone line? No? this is cable, not a telco.

I prefer to rent the modem, it saves me headaches and I?ve had to replace hardware after storms a few time.

On Jun 18, 2014, at 23:18, Jeff Jensen <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:

> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning on CC 50/10.
> 
> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip" they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16 months (depends on price of course).
> 
> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever used DSL)
> 
> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and N600 stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone capability.
> 
> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
> 
> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?
> 
> 
> [0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
> [1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Thu Jun 19 06:49:08 2014
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 06:49:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] =?utf-8?q?Comcast_cable_modem_recommendations=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <3E88499A-9371-487B-8AC0-E8D1E0A9A222@me.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3E88499A-9371-487B-8AC0-E8D1E0A9A222@me.com>
Message-ID: <59136516ae7a1c1e558f0b3e46ec32ce@flyballdogs.com>

 

On 2014-06-19 06:42, Ryan Coleman wrote: 

> phone line? No? this is cable, not a telco. 
> 
> I prefer to rent the modem, it saves me headaches and I've had to replace hardware after storms a few time.

10 months of rental pays for a new cable modem. I hate paying that
rental fee but since I have business class with a static IP, I have no
choice but to rent from them. I've paid them almost $600 in rental fees
since I've had them as my ISP. 
-- 
Kathryn Hogg
http://womensfooty.com
 
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From kaze0010 at umn.edu  Thu Jun 19 07:37:10 2014
From: kaze0010 at umn.edu (Haudy Kazemi)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 07:37:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53A2D976.5080203@umn.edu>

Depending on how much you want to spend, look at the 8 channel down x 4 
channel up DOCSIS 3.0 modems. The Zoom 5431J is one modem that is well 
reviewed across the web. The Motorolas seem to get good reviews or 
flakey reviews varying by local cable network.


On 06/18/2014 11:18 PM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are 
> loser monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and 
> planning on CC 50/10.
>
> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip" 
> they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16 
> months (depends on price of course).
>
> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need 
> a phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only 
> ever used DSL)
>
> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and 
> N600 stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone 
> capability.
>
> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but 
> fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations 
> for me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?
>
>
> [0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
> [1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From bbaptist at iexposure.com  Thu Jun 19 09:32:17 2014
From: bbaptist at iexposure.com (Bret Baptist)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 09:32:17 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53A2F471.6060607@iexposure.com>

On 6/18/14, 11:18 PM, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser
> monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning
> on CC 50/10.
>
> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip"
> they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16
> months (depends on price of course).
>
> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a
> phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever
> used DSL)
>
> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and
> N600 stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone
> capability.
>
> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but
> fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for
> me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?

I just switched to Comcast for all the same reasons, thewirecutter.com 
recommends the Motorola SB6141.  However, if you don't plan on getting 
speeds above 150Mb/s then the Motorola SB6121 is cheaper at around $62.

I got the SB6121, and it works great so far.

-- 
Bret Baptist
Senior Network Administrator
Internet Exposure
bbaptist at iexposure.com
(612) 676-1946 x117

Check out our blog: www.iexposure.com/blog
Follow us on Twitter: www.twitter.com/iexposure
Like us on Facebook www.facebook.com/iexposure
Connect on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/company/internet-exposure

A Digital Agency Since 1995

From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Jun 19 10:03:43 2014
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:03:43 -0400
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <3E88499A-9371-487B-8AC0-E8D1E0A9A222@me.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <3E88499A-9371-487B-8AC0-E8D1E0A9A222@me.com>
Message-ID: <20140619150342.GD10123@real-time.com>

On 06/19 06:42 , Ryan Coleman wrote:
> I prefer to rent the modem, it saves me headaches and I?ve had to replace hardware after storms a few time.

I see the economic benefits of buying a device rather than renting it, but
on the other hand when it comes time to replace the thing for one reason or
another (speed upgrade, device burnout, whatever), it's really convenient to
just say "give me a new one" and the company hands you a new one. Normally
I'm all in favor of owning a device rather than renting it, but I've come to
look at these as disposable, shoddy things and I rent mine.

-- 
Carl Soderstrom
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 11:21:42 2014
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:21:42 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuhj=1DHxBEia5io2N8nEqWsX-QgdQHhf0R8Mi37o_MMA@mail.gmail.com>

Jeff Jensen
  > I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast


I made that switch a couple of months ago and also wanted to
buy a modem.  The guy who installed the Comcast modem
told me there are a few I could buy and he would show me
them.  It had taken a long time to install the modem though
(their provisioning system went down) and so I didn't want to
deal with it any more and just got his name and number.
Later I tried to call him and never could get through to him or
got a message back.  So I still have the rental.

About a month after I switched, Century Link knocked on the
door and they offered me an even better deal, but I was still
tired from the long install and didn't want to go through anything
like that again.  I should have asked them how many months
they were talking about for their deal.  I think if I switch back
that would make it easier to get away from the hard to find
modems that work for Comcast.


-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
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From cwgriesel at gmail.com  Thu Jun 19 11:50:13 2014
From: cwgriesel at gmail.com (Curtis Griesel)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 11:50:13 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEcQE8MEVPpzDS0=0mw3-0F7aNeriEurGkBEk+XoVU-CRx0tEA@mail.gmail.com>

If you must have a home phone, and can't get by with just your cell phone,
why not ditch the landline and run your voice calls through your ISP with
either MagicJack, Oooma, or something similar?  Should save you $20 per
month or so on your home phone line.


On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Jeff Jensen <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:

> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser
> monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning on
> CC 50/10.
>
> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip"
> they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16
> months (depends on price of course).
>
> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a
> phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever
> used DSL)
>
> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and N600
> stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone capability.
>
> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but
> fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for
> me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?
>
>
> [0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
> [1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Jun 19 13:26:32 2014
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 13:26:32 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBwRPp0fRw0-+PPDw5VWcvGdw+brJvP=mPLW_Ffr5W0pAA@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for all the replies!  Very helpful info for me.

After learning more today, the modem with phone jacks purchase is a 21
month breakeven, so I will start with rental of it (if I change to CC
phone, of course).  More things to look at yet...

Otherwise, the non-phone ones have better purchase breakeven.
On Jun 18, 2014 11:18 PM, "Jeff Jensen" <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:

> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser
> monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning on
> CC 50/10.
>
> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip"
> they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16
> months (depends on price of course).
>
> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a
> phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever
> used DSL)
>
> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and N600
> stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone capability.
>
> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but
> fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
>
> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for
> me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?
>
>
> [0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
> [1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
>
>
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From jjensen at apache.org  Thu Jun 19 14:07:00 2014
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2014 14:07:00 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CAEcQE8MEVPpzDS0=0mw3-0F7aNeriEurGkBEk+XoVU-CRx0tEA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAKumxBxxKDJBJnQV1bQcVB=CQxGD_=nUuAzKhY34UmEf8FjhXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEcQE8MEVPpzDS0=0mw3-0F7aNeriEurGkBEk+XoVU-CRx0tEA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBwCT3CcTM6pUnoXTtO94kEV0G-p5Fgh4+2z5C4BVxL=-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Great idea, thanks!  I've been looking into them. The main concern I have
is use with security system.  One Amazon customer answer for ooma said it
won't work.  I will look further as I don't understand why it wouldn't yet.
On Jun 19, 2014 11:51 AM, "Curtis Griesel" <cwgriesel at gmail.com> wrote:

> If you must have a home phone, and can't get by with just your cell phone,
> why not ditch the landline and run your voice calls through your ISP with
> either MagicJack, Oooma, or something similar?  Should save you $20 per
> month or so on your home phone line.
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 11:18 PM, Jeff Jensen <jjensen at apache.org> wrote:
>
>> I'm probably switching from CenturyLink to Comcast [yes, both are loser
>> monopoly companies] since CL top speed to my house is 12/.8 and planning on
>> CC 50/10.
>>
>> I prefer to buy a good modem/router (and wonder about the "lucky dip"
>> they'll send).  Plus, at $8 rental, a purchase pays for itself in 8-16
>> months (depends on price of course).
>>
>> I plan to switch the landline as well.  Does the cable modem then need a
>> phone connector/jack as well or what is the connection? (I've only ever
>> used DSL)
>>
>> I've been looking at [0] and [1].  I'm a Netgear fan so the N450 and N600
>> stand out to me.  But I did not see any of them mention phone capability.
>>
>> I don't need wireless on it (have another unit that provides that) but
>> fine if it does.  My current DSL router has it but I turned it off.
>>
>> So I'm wondering if anyone has cable modem purchase recommendations for
>> me?  Or is the recommendation to rent theirs?
>>
>>
>> [0] http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/
>> [1] http://mynewmodem.comcast.net/
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
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From bbaptist at iexposure.com  Fri Jun 20 08:26:46 2014
From: bbaptist at iexposure.com (Bret Baptist)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:26:46 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjuhj=1DHxBEia5io2N8nEqWsX-QgdQHhf0R8Mi37o_MMA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuhj=1DHxBEia5io2N8nEqWsX-QgdQHhf0R8Mi37o_MMA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <53A43696.6090309@iexposure.com>


On 06/19/2014 11:21 AM, Brian Wood wrote:
> hard to find modems that work for Comcast.

Hard to find?  There is a page of them right here:
http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/


-- 
Bret Baptist
Senior Network Administrator
Internet Exposure
bbaptist at iexposure.com
(612) 676-1946 x117

Check out our blog: www.iexposure.com/blog
Follow us on Twitter: www.twitter.com/iexposure
Like us on Facebook www.facebook.com/iexposure
Connect on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/company/internet-exposure

A Digital Agency Since 1995

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Fri Jun 20 14:08:02 2014
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2014 19:08:02 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Comcast cable modem recommendations?
Message-ID: <CABWFOjsgL+Q+BoamC7DP491okTzX3BUzBL_odf0bEmzTLRa8+g@mail.gmail.com>

On 06/19/2014 11:21 AM, Brian Wood wrote:
> > hard to find modems that work for Comcast.
>
> Hard to find?  There is a page of them right here:
> http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/ <http://mydeviceinfo.comcast.net/>

Yes, I know of that page.  I only found one modem
that was a telephony modem and that might work
for me.

I didn't come right out and say it in my last post,
but I suggest calling Century Link and telling them
you're going to switch to Comcast if they don't
reduce their price by 50%.  The price Century Link
offered me when they stopped at the door after I had
already switched to Comcast was 45% of what it was
before I switched and the speed was also faster.

That seems like the easiest thing now in retrospect, but
I didn't try it.  Also the modem that Comcast rents doesn't
come with a battery.  They want 30 some bucks for that.
So I kind of miss Century Link.  If Century Link is reading
this, feel free to make me another offer.

I also like Ooma and have used them for a number
of months.  But I think Magicjack or whatever it is
called is a little bit cheaper.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - "Unless the L-rd builds the house,
they labor in vain that build it."  Psalms 127:1
http://webEbenezer.net
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From jazzyflute at gmail.com  Mon Jun 23 15:25:07 2014
From: jazzyflute at gmail.com (Marc Thomas)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 15:25:07 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: [NORLUG] June NORLUG meeting - 2 1/2 week reminder
In-Reply-To: <6a2df298-2800-4c89-a4ea-42ddda11a009@googlegroups.com>
References: <6a2df298-2800-4c89-a4ea-42ddda11a009@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <CAMkrd9ebPfL-CEFoH16YYTYe4mopufq9QOsb+DCJ7t-w__sgiQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hey TCLUG,

Thought I would pass along an invite to the Northfield Linux User Groups
(NORLUG) next talk this Thursday at the SPUR coworking space in downtown
Northfield. We are going to be covering a piece of software that likely all
of you have heard of and possibly even used, VIM. But we will be going
beyond VIM itself and exploring how the concepts that make vim so unique
have influenced the development of tons of applications in recent years.
Check out the links in the original email for more information!

Marc

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jazzyflute <jazzyflute at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:05 PM
Subject: [NORLUG] June NORLUG meeting - 2 1/2 week reminder
To: norlug at googlegroups.com


Hey everyone!

In 2 (and a half) weeks is our Vim Basics like a Pro talk by Marc Thomas!
Don't forget to throw this one on your calendar. Vim isn't just for
developers or server admins. Just about anyone who works (or plays) with
Linux in some capacity will find something useful in this talk. Below
you'll find the 3 w's, and some additional useful links.

---

What: Vim Basics like a Pro!
When: June 26th, 7:00 pm
Where: SPUR Coworking Space

G+ Event
<https://plus.google.com/events/c97s6p34h4ebm82bmm1q7atbtg4?utm_source=chrome_ntp_icon&utm_medium=chrome_app&utm_campaign=chrome&authkey=CJOj-JLgrsi81wE>
| Announcement <http://www.norlug.org/meetings/2014/06/26/VimBasicsPro.html>
| SPUR Coworking (Google Maps)
<https://www.google.com/maps/place/Spur+Coworking/@44.456804,-93.159743,17z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!3m1!1s0x87f653c70f5b89ad:0x3cba52fa03a1fa70>


---

-- 
Northfield Linux User Group and Coffee House Coders
http://norlug.org : http://norlug.org/g+ : http://norlug.org/twitter
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"NORLUG Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
email to norlug+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to norlug at googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/norlug.
To view this discussion on the web visit
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/norlug/6a2df298-2800-4c89-a4ea-42ddda11a009%40googlegroups.com
<https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/norlug/6a2df298-2800-4c89-a4ea-42ddda11a009%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.



-- 
Website <http://mathomaste.ch>   :   Google+
<https://plus.google.com/u/0/103260909450809151378/about>   :   Twitter
<https://twitter.com/mathomastech>   :   GitHub
<https://github.com/mathomastech>
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From goodell70 at yahoo.com  Mon Jun 23 23:40:15 2014
From: goodell70 at yahoo.com (Mark Goodell)
Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2014 21:40:15 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: [NORLUG] June NORLUG meeting - 2 1/2 week
	reminder
In-Reply-To: <CAMkrd9ebPfL-CEFoH16YYTYe4mopufq9QOsb+DCJ7t-w__sgiQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6a2df298-2800-4c89-a4ea-42ddda11a009@googlegroups.com>
 <CAMkrd9ebPfL-CEFoH16YYTYe4mopufq9QOsb+DCJ7t-w__sgiQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1403584815.28367.YahooMailNeo@web160805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thank you, Marc
Mark Goodell
Minneapolis



On Monday, June 23, 2014 4:26 PM, Marc Thomas <jazzyflute at gmail.com> wrote:
 

>
>
>Hey TCLUG,
>
>Thought I would pass along an invite to the Northfield Linux User Groups (NORLUG) next talk this Thursday at the SPUR coworking space in downtown Northfield. We are going to be covering a piece of software that likely all of you have heard of and possibly even used, VIM. But we will be going beyond VIM itself and exploring how the concepts that make vim so unique have influenced the development of tons of applications in recent years. Check out the links in the original email for more information!
>
>Marc
>
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: jazzyflute <jazzyflute at gmail.com>
>Date: Mon, Jun 9, 2014 at 3:05 PM
>Subject: [NORLUG] June NORLUG meeting - 2 1/2 week reminder
>To: norlug at googlegroups.com
>
>
>
>Hey everyone!
>
>
>In 2 (and a half) weeks is our Vim Basics like a Pro talk by Marc Thomas! Don't forget to throw this one on your calendar. Vim isn't just for developers or server admins. Just about anyone who works (or plays) with Linux in some capacity will find something useful in this talk. Below you'll find the 3 w's, and some additional useful links.
>
>
>
>---
>
>
>What: Vim Basics like a Pro!
>When: June 26th, 7:00 pm
>
>Where: SPUR Coworking Space
>
>
>G+ Event | Announcement | SPUR Coworking (Google Maps)?
>
>
>----- 
>Northfield Linux User Group and Coffee House Coders
>http://norlug.org : http://norlug.org/g+ : http://norlug.org/twitter
>--- 
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "NORLUG Mailing List" group.
>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to norlug+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>To post to this group, send email to norlug at googlegroups.com.
>Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/norlug.
>To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/norlug/6a2df298-2800-4c89-a4ea-42ddda11a009%40googlegroups.com.
>For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
>
>-- 
>
>Website? ?: ??Google+? ?: ??Twitter? ?: ??GitHub
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 24 11:56:16 2014
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 11:56:16 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Streams in the desert
Message-ID: <CABWFOjuhr1cLbgp8hSTAa3C415D9WpRj8wWFNUK2Xcp-AFiPnQ@mail.gmail.com>

Earlier this month there was a conference in Oslo that was
largely about C++.  Now I've received news of an upcoming
C++ conference in Madrid:

"We are arranging the 2014 edition of using std::cpp for the Spanish C++
community, to be held Oct 28 in the University Carlos III campus in
Legan?s, Madrid, Spain:

http://usingstdcpp.org/

The call for talks is open till July 15th to anyone interested and in a
position to make it to Madrid on Oct 28"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess the Twin Cities could be described as a C++ desert.
I don't think I'll be going to Madrid, but hope that others here
are interested in forming a C++ users group.?

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
http://webEbenezer.net
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From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Tue Jun 24 12:41:39 2014
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 12:41:39 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Streams in the desert
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjuhr1cLbgp8hSTAa3C415D9WpRj8wWFNUK2Xcp-AFiPnQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuhr1cLbgp8hSTAa3C415D9WpRj8wWFNUK2Xcp-AFiPnQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+PrY-STFS=E1Jz=3N3yYSuOJV3CKUMk2Fo9WAN9OnHv9w@mail.gmail.com>

What sort of feedback have you got the last several times you asked this?


On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Earlier this month there was a conference in Oslo that was
> largely about C++.  Now I've received news of an upcoming
> C++ conference in Madrid:
>
> "We are arranging the 2014 edition of using std::cpp for the Spanish C++
> community, to be held Oct 28 in the University Carlos III campus in
> Legan?s, Madrid, Spain:
>
> http://usingstdcpp.org/
>
> The call for talks is open till July 15th to anyone interested and in a
> position to make it to Madrid on Oct 28"
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I guess the Twin Cities could be described as a C++ desert.
> I don't think I'll be going to Madrid, but hope that others here
> are interested in forming a C++ users group.?
>
> --
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
> http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Jun 24 15:28:26 2014
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:28:26 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Editing journalctl log
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjuPY88RdiTbn_X82F62oZ--5E1F7pbLa9nCQmH7mK9wAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuPY88RdiTbn_X82F62oZ--5E1F7pbLa9nCQmH7mK9wAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABWFOjtBL4u=g6R4ZBcvP7zFHQGQrqtvcZqTsNxc7D+iUvdLTg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 10:16 PM, I wrote:

> Is there a way to delete a bunch of stuff from a
> journalctl log?  I started a program that had a
> problem and the same problem was logged over
> and over again.  Now it takes a long time for
> me to grep for things in the log and so on.
> I've looked through the man page and done
> some duckduckgoing, but haven't figured out
> how to delete anything yet.  Thanks.
>
>
Am I the only guy with this problem?  I guess it's a
hard problem because the log is stored as binary.

-- 
Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - "Many are the afflictions of the
righteous, but the L-rd saves him out of them all."  Psalms 34:19
http://webEbenezer.net
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From f13dev at gmail.com  Tue Jun 24 15:57:56 2014
From: f13dev at gmail.com (Patrick "Finn" Robins)
Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2014 15:57:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Editing journalctl log
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjtBL4u=g6R4ZBcvP7zFHQGQrqtvcZqTsNxc7D+iUvdLTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuPY88RdiTbn_X82F62oZ--5E1F7pbLa9nCQmH7mK9wAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CABWFOjtBL4u=g6R4ZBcvP7zFHQGQrqtvcZqTsNxc7D+iUvdLTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1878795.8nNghpDmg2@muon>

On Tuesday, June 24, 2014 15:28:26 Brian Wood wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 10:16 PM, I wrote:
> > Is there a way to delete a bunch of stuff from a
> > journalctl log?  I started a program that had a
> > problem and the same problem was logged over
> > and over again.  Now it takes a long time for
> > me to grep for things in the log and so on.
> > I've looked through the man page and done
> > some duckduckgoing, but haven't figured out
> > how to delete anything yet.  Thanks.
> 
> Am I the only guy with this problem?  I guess it's a
> hard problem because the log is stored as binary.
What is your end goal for the edited log?
 If you are just looking to preserve a copy of certain errors you will have to 
save it as a separate file. Other than changing the size of the retained log or 
changing the level of logging done there appears to be no way to alter the log 
file itself. I have a feeling this was done on purpose to avoid one of the 
easier methods to falsify system logs.
Sorry I couldn't be of any real help.
-- 
Patrick 'Finn' Robins
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From john.a.frisk at gmail.com  Fri Jun 27 00:42:21 2014
From: john.a.frisk at gmail.com (John Frisk)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 00:42:21 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound - June Meeting
Message-ID: <CAAvSaRqFgtX2JB8H+npC5Yc7XUPpDxxhbS7r5v5ybPXdCG_CHg@mail.gmail.com>

Please join us this Saturday June 28th 10AM at TIES Snelling Room for a
discussion about Ubuntu Touch Core Apps.  Victor Thompson will be
presenting.

http://www.penguinsunbound.com/
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From ryanjcole at me.com  Fri Jun 27 18:21:33 2014
From: ryanjcole at me.com (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Fri, 27 Jun 2014 18:21:33 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Streams in the desert
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+PrY-STFS=E1Jz=3N3yYSuOJV3CKUMk2Fo9WAN9OnHv9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjuhr1cLbgp8hSTAa3C415D9WpRj8wWFNUK2Xcp-AFiPnQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PrY-STFS=E1Jz=3N3yYSuOJV3CKUMk2Fo9WAN9OnHv9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DF5B127E-4D84-405A-ADE3-4B7FE70995B9@me.com>

This is a list of people who aren?t actually programmers. Or haven?t you figured that out?

There are conferences all over the place, Brian, perhaps you can find someone to sponsor you - but not from the list, please.

On Jun 24, 2014, at 12:41, Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:

> What sort of feedback have you got the last several times you asked this?
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:56 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Earlier this month there was a conference in Oslo that was
> largely about C++.  Now I've received news of an upcoming
> C++ conference in Madrid:
> 
> "We are arranging the 2014 edition of using std::cpp for the Spanish C++
> community, to be held Oct 28 in the University Carlos III campus in
> Legan?s, Madrid, Spain:
> 
> http://usingstdcpp.org/
> 
> The call for talks is open till July 15th to anyone interested and in a
> position to make it to Madrid on Oct 28"
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I guess the Twin Cities could be described as a C++ desert.
> I don't think I'll be going to Madrid, but hope that others here
> are interested in forming a C++ users group.?
> 
> -- 
> Brian 
> Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
> http://webEbenezer.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Chapin
> President, CedarLug, retired
> President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
> President, UNI Scuba Club
> Senator, NISG, retired
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

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From goodell70 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 28 09:05:18 2014
From: goodell70 at yahoo.com (Mark Goodell)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:05:18 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound - June Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAAvSaRqFgtX2JB8H+npC5Yc7XUPpDxxhbS7r5v5ybPXdCG_CHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAvSaRqFgtX2JB8H+npC5Yc7XUPpDxxhbS7r5v5ybPXdCG_CHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1403964318.72023.YahooMailNeo@web160806.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I think I know where to go (1667 Snelling Ave N?)? 


Mark G.



On Friday, June 27, 2014 1:43 AM, John Frisk <john.a.frisk at gmail.com> wrote:
 

>
>
>Please join us this Saturday June 28th 10AM at TIES Snelling Room for a discussion about Ubuntu Touch Core Apps.? Victor Thompson will be presenting.
>
>http://www.penguinsunbound.com/
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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From goodell70 at yahoo.com  Sat Jun 28 09:06:04 2014
From: goodell70 at yahoo.com (Mark Goodell)
Date: Sat, 28 Jun 2014 07:06:04 -0700
Subject: [tclug-list] Penguins Unbound - June Meeting
In-Reply-To: <CAAvSaRqFgtX2JB8H+npC5Yc7XUPpDxxhbS7r5v5ybPXdCG_CHg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAvSaRqFgtX2JB8H+npC5Yc7XUPpDxxhbS7r5v5ybPXdCG_CHg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1403964364.4038.YahooMailNeo@web160801.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Mainly, thank you for telling me about this.
Mark G.



On Friday, June 27, 2014 1:43 AM, John Frisk <john.a.frisk at gmail.com> wrote:
 

>
>
>Please join us this Saturday June 28th 10AM at TIES Snelling Room for a discussion about Ubuntu Touch Core Apps.? Victor Thompson will be presenting.
>
>http://www.penguinsunbound.com/
>
>_______________________________________________
>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
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