From eng at pinenet.com Tue Jan 3 05:31:52 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 05:31:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd Message-ID: <586B8BA8.6030106@pinenet.com> Interesting lead article in Sunday's Mpls. Startribune Opinion Exchange section, "Will Civilization Destroy Science?" I think it fairly reflects the "What do we do now?" status of our politics and nation as a whole. We know we use electronics, but China makes most of it. In Otto's day they were known as "Red China" and he would roll over in his grave if he could see 2017 USA. Personally, I wouldn't give 10 cents to the U. of MN. administration. But I would give huge grants to students willing to study hard and become a foundation for the future. A Linux computing forum seems as good a place as any to offer an answer to the important OpEd question. From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Tue Jan 3 15:49:47 2017 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2017 15:49:47 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd Message-ID: From: Rick Engebretson > Interesting lead article in Sunday's Mpls. Startribune Opinion Exchange > section, "Will Civilization Destroy Science?" I think it fairly reflects > the "What do we do now?" status of our politics and nation as a whole. > > We know we use electronics, but China makes most of it. In Otto's day > they were known as "Red China" and he would roll over in his grave if he > could see 2017 USA. I try to buy from USA then South Korea(Samsung), Taiwan (Acer, Azus), Canada, Mexico, Australia, etc. > > Personally, I wouldn't give 10 cents to the U. of MN. administration. > But I would give huge grants to students willing to study hard and > become a foundation for the future. The U gets most of the press, but am glad for the smaller schools in the area. Most of my family went to Bethel. I cheer for the Bethel Royals, the Gophers and my Nittany Lions. It's great to see how well the Gopher men's basketball team is doing! Now I hope their success doesn't go to their heads like it did for the footballers. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust. https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eng at pinenet.com Wed Jan 4 05:17:53 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2017 05:17:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> One of the investors in "Lightronics, Inc." was Dave Listner, an adviser to Bethel College. Fiber optics, the internet, LEDs, optical disc media, display technology created a lot of jobs. Quality education and young people with opportunity (not bankrupted from the effort to learn) could happen many places. I did find some big changes in new technology leadership. My interest in environment, energy, and agriculture has some great new directions. The old "renewable energy" scammers are all gone. Of particular interest is "NRRI" out of UMD. With nearly double atmospheric CO2, biology is growing nearly twice as fast. With population growth, farm soil fertility is important. This combines to a new project in Coleraine, MN. to convert wood waste to fuel and charcoal (biochar). When you buy garden black dirt it contains biochar. This NRRI project is just one component of a larger industrial bioenergy climate response the world must face. Coleraine, MN. has connections to Finland, Sweden, with technology transfer opportunity with Russia, China and Brazil. Otto's big theory was to copy nature, "biomimetics." He invented digital electronics copying the nerve "action potential." I question my actual contribution but not my sweat equity trying to copy nerve systems. Regarding biomass conversion I push "copy fire." Anybody who burns a wood fire knows light energy and photochemistry is happening. Some very basic data is now being developed in Coleraine, MN. Civilization won't destroy science, but politics can. Linux industrial controls will matter. Brian Wood wrote: > From: Rick Engebretson > > > Interesting lead article in Sunday's Mpls. Startribune Opinion Exchange > > section, "Will Civilization Destroy Science?" I think it fairly reflects > > the "What do we do now?" status of our politics and nation as a whole. > > > > We know we use electronics, but China makes most of it. In Otto's day > > they were known as "Red China" and he would roll over in his grave if he > > could see 2017 USA. > > I try to buy from USA then South Korea(Samsung), Taiwan > (Acer, Azus), Canada, Mexico, Australia, etc. > > > > > Personally, I wouldn't give 10 cents to the U. of MN. administration. > > But I would give huge grants to students willing to study hard and > > become a foundation for the future. > > The U gets most of the press, but am glad for the smaller schools > in the area. Most of my family went to Bethel. I cheer for the > Bethel Royals, the Gophers and my Nittany Lions. It's great to > see how well the Gopher men's basketball team is doing! Now > I hope their success doesn't go to their heads like it did for the > footballers. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust. > https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From iznogoud at nobelware.com Thu Jan 5 14:09:16 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:09:16 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> Rick, I enjoyed reading your perspective on this, especially the biological basic science research that has to do with production of fuel; this I did hear on an MPRnews program very recently. I also think that this is an area where our service-oriented economy (which is self-proclaimed to be "reserch-centric") can benefit a lot from investment. If for no other reason, the potential of harnessing power from alternative sources as a reserch opportunity can be a temporary job-creator. I want to add one more thought on an earlier topic you touched, and that was the UofM. It is my (biased) impression, based on data collected from colleagues who have worked here at the U but also at other places and have seen the contrast first-hand, that the UofM is overall very well managed and very very organized. Jesse Ventura said that there was "fat" to be trimmed back in 2000, and maybe he was right. But I am certain this can be said for a lot of places. I stand that the UofM is doing well, is offering services, and that it can get even better (with constructive criticism) if some things change. Returning back to Linux and honouring people's time on this list. It does not, at all, surprise me that people on this list have interests in sustainable energy production, leaning methods, and generally progressive ideas. It goes very well with the spirit of free software (Linux), collaborations, etc. I think the diversity in thinking, interests and approach benefits all of us as a whole. I also think that Linux is going ot be an integral part in research and industrial production as it continues to mature. Do your part to spread its use and your software/hardware ideas; I am all ears. On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 05:17:53AM -0600, Rick Engebretson wrote: > > Some very basic data is now being developed in Coleraine, MN. > Civilization won't destroy science, but politics can. > > Linux industrial controls will matter. > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Thu Jan 5 14:16:11 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 20:16:11 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: <20161119182314.GA27643@nobelware.com> References: <20161119182314.GA27643@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20170105201611.GA15315@nobelware.com> Loren, whatever happend to this little security issue you encountered? I am interested to know what you found. From eng at pinenet.com Thu Jan 5 14:59:20 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 14:59:20 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> You are always thoughtful and appreciated. It was 21 below here this morning. IIRC from very recent reading of projects mentioned, Minnesota exports $18 billion per year on energy imports. This forest resource topic is central to UN climate discussions. California has 100 million dead trees they don't know what to do with. The fire danger is well demonstrated. Personally, I think too many have been watching too much TV for too long, and I don't know how to politely ask for their attention to save their lives. The new guy at the U., Fritz Ebinger, is a radical improvement over the useless characters endured in the past. He even politely listened about my last proposal to mass produce livestock septic tanks using recycled plastic, in 1987. I was in very good standing at the U. until I became quite interdisciplinary; with biochemistry, genetics, solid state physics, etc. and the computers and electronics. Throw on top of that I was excited about Ronald Reagan as president in Walter Mondale's Minnesota, and computer electronics made a bee line to California and now China. It "honors people's time" to remind them what computers do. Right now computers are tools to run cars, factories, military systems, even farm technology. If you have some useful insight, please share it. Iznogoud wrote: > Rick, I enjoyed reading your perspective on this, especially the biological > basic science research that has to do with production of fuel; this I did hear > on an MPRnews program very recently. I also think that this is an area where > our service-oriented economy (which is self-proclaimed to be "reserch-centric") > can benefit a lot from investment. If for no other reason, the potential of > harnessing power from alternative sources as a reserch opportunity can be a > temporary job-creator. > > I want to add one more thought on an earlier topic you touched, and that was > the UofM. It is my (biased) impression, based on data collected from colleagues > who have worked here at the U but also at other places and have seen the > contrast first-hand, that the UofM is overall very well managed and very very > organized. Jesse Ventura said that there was "fat" to be trimmed back in 2000, > and maybe he was right. But I am certain this can be said for a lot of places. > I stand that the UofM is doing well, is offering services, and that it can get > even better (with constructive criticism) if some things change. > > Returning back to Linux and honouring people's time on this list. It does not, > at all, surprise me that people on this list have interests in sustainable > energy production, leaning methods, and generally progressive ideas. It goes > very well with the spirit of free software (Linux), collaborations, etc. I > think the diversity in thinking, interests and approach benefits all of us as > a whole. I also think that Linux is going ot be an integral part in research > and industrial production as it continues to mature. Do your part to spread > its use and your software/hardware ideas; I am all ears. > > > On Wed, Jan 04, 2017 at 05:17:53AM -0600, Rick Engebretson wrote: >> Some very basic data is now being developed in Coleraine, MN. >> Civilization won't destroy science, but politics can. >> >> Linux industrial controls will matter. >> > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Thu Jan 5 15:37:57 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 21:37:57 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> Let me take this opportunity to say "happy birthday Walter Mondale." In my industry, Linux has been dominating in terms of being behind anything that smells like high-performance computing. In my colleagues' industries, it is behind embedded systems for autonomous systems, remote sensing, etc. Most of our day-to-day uses in society are to provide convenience in information sharing (social media, news, uber-style apps, etc). We are still figuring out how to use them, and hence big conventions like the on-going one in Las Vegas where companies are displaying IoT stuff, are taking place. Ironically, all I see is technology being used to promote itself, coming full circle but with little substance. Too many tools to hack with, so little hacking! Perhaps we should go back to books that talk about the grand challenges of past times. People who inspire on the use of computers are people like Stephen Wolfram, where he basically tackles biology with a strange computational approach ("A new type of science" published in the 90s). We used to hack all day (and night) to come up with cool stuff to show our friends. But perhaps we need to stop consuming the information that is coming at us (from computers) and start thinking about what problems we want to see solved. Then, we start hitting keys on the keyboard to make it happen. I have too many hobbies to be the visionary, but I can be easily distracted when stimulated enough to help! From l at lhb.me Thu Jan 5 16:02:13 2017 From: l at lhb.me (LB) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2017 16:02:13 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: References: <20161119182314.GA27643@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <1483653733.1866145.838729873.4BAD23DD@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017, at 02:16 PM, Iznogoud wrote: > Loren, whatever happend to this little security issue you encountered? I > am > interested to know what you found. > TBH, I really didn't follow up with it. It is still basically a mystery. That said, I did block the IP of the original query using .htaccess. However, recently, I noticed another query from a Romanian IP address for a different (valid) laptop name which we also have this query script running on. This time, the UA string was purporting to be a Windows 10 machine running Edge which is why these queries stand out. My script is PowerShell based and the UA for these queries all look the same. I am still left with the conclusion that: 1. Communications are being intercepted and analyzed somewhere outside our network 2. These computers have some kind of malware on them (not likely as they are all locked down and maintained regularly by our team) 3. Our on premise router is compromised (I doubt it) 4. Cheap GoDaddy host sells or otherwise leaks access log data As a test, I made up a name and used it in a query one time from my computer's browser. If that shows up being mimicked then at least it will rule out #2. I will repeat the procedure with another unique name from a different network to see if I can rule out #3 Let me know if you have any thoughts on this. --Loren From eng at pinenet.com Thu Jan 5 18:53:23 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2017 18:53:23 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> Certainly, much to chat about. But I'll throw some core science at you. Water is a semiconductor, just like silicon. The symmetry structures of both allow sharing of charged particle orbitals. The big difference is silicon shares electrons, water shares protons. The quantum mechanics of fundamental particles electrons and protons differs only by charge and mass. The heavier mass of protons means lower excitation frequency. Chemists call proton donors an acid, proton acceptors are bases. So we have an optical frequency handle to perform chemistry. It was impossible to join much quantum physics with biochemistry in my day. Taking it further, protein is a structured deposition of acids and bases, with remarkable embedded circuits due to peptide bonds. "Protein as dynamically reconfigurable liquid crystal microprocessor." Nature has some huge molecular structures like DNA, proteins, and cellulose. They are very cohesive partly because of quantum mechanics vibration modes. Audio frequency musical instruments are often wood. We need to add a lot of energy to convert cellulose to small molecule fuels. Fortunately, we have a lot of suitable wavelength photons to add energy to cellulose and make fuels; sunlight. The XFoms toolkit I've suggested is maintained by a German chemical physicist, not a computer programmer. Scientists using computers are out there, just none I can find around here, and I've looked hard. This is an international priority, not a hobby. Iznogoud wrote: > Let me take this opportunity to say "happy birthday Walter Mondale." > > In my industry, Linux has been dominating in terms of being behind anything > that smells like high-performance computing. In my colleagues' industries, it > is behind embedded systems for autonomous systems, remote sensing, etc. Most > of our day-to-day uses in society are to provide convenience in information > sharing (social media, news, uber-style apps, etc). We are still figuring out > how to use them, and hence big conventions like the on-going one in Las Vegas > where companies are displaying IoT stuff, are taking place. Ironically, all I > see is technology being used to promote itself, coming full circle but with > little substance. Too many tools to hack with, so little hacking! > > Perhaps we should go back to books that talk about the grand challenges of past > times. People who inspire on the use of computers are people like Stephen > Wolfram, where he basically tackles biology with a strange computational > approach ("A new type of science" published in the 90s). We used to hack all > day (and night) to come up with cool stuff to show our friends. But perhaps we > need to stop consuming the information that is coming at us (from computers) > and start thinking about what problems we want to see solved. Then, we start > hitting keys on the keyboard to make it happen. > > I have too many hobbies to be the visionary, but I can be easily distracted > when stimulated enough to help! > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From eng at pinenet.com Fri Jan 6 05:59:37 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 05:59:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <586F86A9.60903@pinenet.com> I need to correct the spelling. It is "XForms" toolkit. A link is http://xforms-toolkit.org/ I'm not aware of anything in Unix, Linux or computing so proven and stable as the XWindow user interface. Similarly, the XForms library and documentation are very fundamental, helpful and mature science tools. The Strib wanted an Otto Schmitt response; that's it. Rick Engebretson wrote: > Certainly, much to chat about. But I'll throw some core science at you. > > Water is a semiconductor, just like silicon. The symmetry structures > of both allow sharing of charged particle orbitals. The big difference > is silicon shares electrons, water shares protons. The quantum > mechanics of fundamental particles electrons and protons differs only > by charge and mass. The heavier mass of protons means lower excitation > frequency. Chemists call proton donors an acid, proton acceptors are > bases. So we have an optical frequency handle to perform chemistry. It > was impossible to join much quantum physics with biochemistry in my > day. Taking it further, protein is a structured deposition of acids > and bases, with remarkable embedded circuits due to peptide bonds. > "Protein as dynamically reconfigurable liquid crystal microprocessor." > > Nature has some huge molecular structures like DNA, proteins, and > cellulose. They are very cohesive partly because of quantum mechanics > vibration modes. Audio frequency musical instruments are often wood. > We need to add a lot of energy to convert cellulose to small molecule > fuels. Fortunately, we have a lot of suitable wavelength photons to > add energy to cellulose and make fuels; sunlight. > > The XFoms toolkit I've suggested is maintained by a German chemical > physicist, not a computer programmer. Scientists using computers are > out there, just none I can find around here, and I've looked hard. > This is an international priority, not a hobby. > > Iznogoud wrote: >> Let me take this opportunity to say "happy birthday Walter Mondale." >> >> In my industry, Linux has been dominating in terms of being behind >> anything >> that smells like high-performance computing. In my colleagues' >> industries, it >> is behind embedded systems for autonomous systems, remote sensing, >> etc. Most >> of our day-to-day uses in society are to provide convenience in >> information >> sharing (social media, news, uber-style apps, etc). We are still >> figuring out >> how to use them, and hence big conventions like the on-going one in >> Las Vegas >> where companies are displaying IoT stuff, are taking place. >> Ironically, all I >> see is technology being used to promote itself, coming full circle >> but with >> little substance. Too many tools to hack with, so little hacking! >> >> Perhaps we should go back to books that talk about the grand >> challenges of past >> times. People who inspire on the use of computers are people like >> Stephen >> Wolfram, where he basically tackles biology with a strange computational >> approach ("A new type of science" published in the 90s). We used to >> hack all >> day (and night) to come up with cool stuff to show our friends. But >> perhaps we >> need to stop consuming the information that is coming at us (from >> computers) >> and start thinking about what problems we want to see solved. Then, >> we start >> hitting keys on the keyboard to make it happen. >> >> I have too many hobbies to be the visionary, but I can be easily >> distracted >> when stimulated enough to help! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz Fri Jan 6 15:21:30 2017 From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman) Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2017 15:21:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: <1483653733.1866145.838729873.4BAD23DD@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <20161119182314.GA27643@nobelware.com> <1483653733.1866145.838729873.4BAD23DD@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <32777700-C002-4700-AEA7-F06D9758298B@cwis.biz> > On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:02 PM, LB wrote: > > 3. Our on premise router is compromised (I doubt it) This is a very interesting possiblity? What?s the premise router running? Who made it? ? Ryan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From l at lhb.me Fri Jan 6 17:54:09 2017 From: l at lhb.me (LB) Date: Fri, 06 Jan 2017 17:54:09 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Strange duplicate HTTP queries In-Reply-To: <32777700-C002-4700-AEA7-F06D9758298B@cwis.biz> References: <20161119182314.GA27643@nobelware.com> <1483653733.1866145.838729873.4BAD23DD@webmail.messagingengine.com> <32777700-C002-4700-AEA7-F06D9758298B@cwis.biz> Message-ID: <1483746849.2044056.839828281.5C227CAC@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017, at 03:21 PM, Ryan Coleman wrote: > > > On Jan 5, 2017, at 4:02 PM, LB wrote: > > > > 3. Our on premise router is compromised (I doubt it) > > This is a very interesting possiblity? > What?s the premise router running? Who made it? > It's a SonicWALL NSA 3600 series (actually 2 in and HA cluster). Firmware is up-to-date. I have not heard of any exploits for the SonicWALL, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. Remote management is turned off and I keep it pretty locked down to both inbound and outbound traffic. For example, DNS queries to the Internet are only allowed from specific internal DNS servers and only to specific Internet DNS servers. Unauthenticated traffic is restricted to 80 and 443 outbound and subject to geo-ip, botnet and other content filtering rules. There are a few inbound ports open but those are filtered pretty heavily and terminate in DMZ hosts. One thing though. We do have a Cisco managed switch (one of the Linksys-type low-end switches) that acts as a failover switch for the SonicWALLs. It is partitioned into several 4 port "logical switches" using untagged VLANs. One of the untagged VLAN partitions has WAN connections (Internet side of the SonicWALL). However, there is no IP assigned to the WAN VLAN interface and all management services have been unbound from that VLAN interface. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Mon Jan 9 14:50:17 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 20:50:17 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20170109205017.GA19217@nobelware.com> Rick, The quantum inferences, like frequency of inter-atomic vibrations, etc, are things that most people would not understand even if it was explained to them. I do not think too many people on this list know what you are talking about. Now, from the knowledge base that trickles down from the physical chemists we can all understand that one thing or two are or may be possible with certain "large" molecules. And the only connection to this and computers that I see right away is the calculations that go in support of chemistry and biology. I was involved in developing a code to do quasi-classical Monte-Carlo style calculations of certain (simple) reaction rates. There were billions of MD collisions simulated, and lots of CPU hours of electronic structure (quantum mech.) calculations to go behind it. All of this was running on thousands of cores powered by the Linux kernel... So, this type of work has been happening and will be happening for a long time to come. We are already there, as you probably know. There is a large supercomputing accessibility project called Xsede. People and companies can submit proposals to request computer time to do things like what you said (all computational, of course). I encourage the geeks among us to look it up. It is not tech-oriented in the "iphone" "app" and "IoT" way, but rather the old-school stuff Rick is talking about. From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:11:22 2017 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 15:11:22 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] old DirecTV DVR - Philips DSR708 Message-ID: I don't know if this is the kind of thing anyone would want. It's an old DirecTV DVR, definitely working, with power cord, S-video cable and remote. I had it sitting around for years with some old recordings. I just finished watching them, so I can say for sure that it works. Here's some info about it: http://www.tivopedia.com/model-philips-dsr708.php I don't know what can be done with this old box, but if anyone can use it, it is yours free. Whoever claims it first can have it. If no one wants it, I'll dispose of it. Thanks. Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:20:11 2017 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 15:20:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] endless thrash In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Dec 2016, o1bigtenor wrote: > What's really funny is that you used to be able to run a browser in low > digit MB and now we need lots of GB and its still not reliable and > consistent! Chromium is showing me that almost every page I have open is using more than 100 MB of RAM. That seems absurd. I sometimes find one running amok and eating up multiple gigabytes. I suspect this has something to do with surveillance functionality. Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 15:42:45 2017 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 15:42:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] cybersecurity In-Reply-To: <20161215180540.GB24461@nobelware.com> References: <585293BF.8010802@pinenet.com> <20161215180540.GB24461@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Dec 2016, Iznogoud wrote: > My biggest concerns comes from the behavioural part of a computer user, > not so much from the software aspect. This may seem unrelated, but go > and read how Kevin Mitnick got access to systems back in the 90s. I'm sure some of you have seen Werner Herzog's "Lo and Behold: Reveries of the Connected World", which recently came out on DVD. It has lots of great stuff in it, including Kevin Mitnick talking about his social hacking escapades. He has some really funny stories. It's on Netflix streaming. https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/lo_and_behold_reveries_of_the_connected_world/ Regarding recent cybersecurity news, I know that Podesta's mistake was clicking on a bitly link in a fake Google email. I would think that a better spam filter would easily have saved him from that. I don't know how much I trust the Secureworks analysis. The CrowdStrike claims seem to have been debunked. Both of those companies were hired by the DNC which wants (1) to delegitimize Trump and (2) to have a very-Russian excuse for losing the election. I'm no fan of Trump or Putin, but I have little trust in the DNC for good reason. The ODNI report was pretty thin, to say the least. Who was that intermediary? The one who tricked Assange? They aren't saying and I am therefore not believing them. Brennan (Director of CIA) and Clapper (DNI) both hate Trump, so they have reasons for promoting the "Russian election hacking, this time it's serious" narrative, but they both have lied to us before when we relied on them -- Brennan about CIA hacking of Senate email servers and Clapper about NSA surveillance. Why should I believe them now? The most hilarious claim made by our intelligence community? That they could trace phishing emails to Putin because they contained Cyrillic characters. First, they could trace the emails to particular keyboards because of those Cyrillic characters, and they were Russian keyboards. Second, they know that "not much happens in Russia without Putin's approval," so they knew Putin was behind it. Brilliant! I never would have thought of that and that's why I'm not making the big bucks. Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 16:04:11 2017 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 16:04:11 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Sep 2016, Sandwhich Eyes wrote: > so do most people use irc now? > i notice the volume of this list has gone from around 15 or so emails a day > to 1 or 2 a week. > where are all the newbie questions being answered? Maybe we don't have as many noobs, but I'll say for sure that these two things have affected my use of the list: (1) Ubuntu/Linux software mostly just works for me now. It has improved a lot over the years so I have fewer questions now. And... (2) Google answers a lot more questions than it used to. I find a lot of answers on Ubuntu forums and such, so less need to ask here. I hope plenty of new people are getting into using Linux but I'm not really sure what the data show. It seems like Macs with their OS X unix really took off, but did that cut into the Linux user base? Best, Mike From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Mon Jan 9 16:07:51 2017 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 16:07:51 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] effect on IceWM of killing compiz process? In-Reply-To: <57D4B477.7030806@pinenet.com> References: <20160905194834.GC2719@lunn.ch> <57D4B477.7030806@pinenet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 10 Sep 2016, Rick Engebretson wrote: > Please let us know if you "hosed" your office desktop. I killed the compiz and my VNC with IceWM kept working just fine, but I never made it into the office before there was a power outage, so I can't say what the desktop looked like. I could run a test one of these days, just to see. Mike From eng at pinenet.com Mon Jan 9 16:43:29 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 16:43:29 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <20170109205017.GA19217@nobelware.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> <20170109205017.GA19217@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <58741211.6000901@pinenet.com> I don't pretend to be an up-to-date scientist. I've mentioned how proud I was doing some transformation of co-ordinates calculations (I learned in analytic mechanics physics) to draw a somewhat 3D representation of the alpha-helix and beta-sheet poly-peptide structures. More accurate were electro-optic coefficients calculated by dividing mean dipole by root-mean-square moment. How I pulled that off on an Epson QX10 Z80 computer and printer I don't know. But when I handed it out Otto was excited, "Who did this?" I said to an impressive group that I did. But real images were already being made, just not doing the electro optic stuff. Now-a-days I have several very advanced free Linux graphics programs for large molecules I don't know how to use, an OpenGL screensaver using protein data-bank files that invites lots more uses, and a lot of that stuff came from the U of MN. Major league stuff, and I've even seen some of it includes some peptide "circuit" analysis. We've come a long way. Today I got some energy Minnesota legislator staffer wanting a big story about biomass, biochar, climate, etc. We even have the UN on our Minnesota butts for using fossil fuels not to freeze to death. More wars won't "Make America Great Again." Science matters. Iznogoud wrote: > Rick, > The quantum inferences, like frequency of inter-atomic vibrations, etc, are > things that most people would not understand even if it was explained to them. > I do not think too many people on this list know what you are talking about. > Now, from the knowledge base that trickles down from the physical chemists we > can all understand that one thing or two are or may be possible with certain > "large" molecules. And the only connection to this and computers that I see > right away is the calculations that go in support of chemistry and biology. > > I was involved in developing a code to do quasi-classical Monte-Carlo style > calculations of certain (simple) reaction rates. There were billions of MD > collisions simulated, and lots of CPU hours of electronic structure (quantum > mech.) calculations to go behind it. All of this was running on thousands of > cores powered by the Linux kernel... So, this type of work has been happening > and will be happening for a long time to come. We are already there, as you > probably know. > > There is a large supercomputing accessibility project called Xsede. People and > companies can submit proposals to request computer time to do things like what > you said (all computational, of course). I encourage the geeks among us to look > it up. It is not tech-oriented in the "iphone" "app" and "IoT" way, but rather > the old-school stuff Rick is talking about. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From rsinland at gvtel.com Mon Jan 9 19:45:25 2017 From: rsinland at gvtel.com (Robert Sinland) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 19:45:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d1b4354-bcb1-9dcf-3475-cbab3193e4d5@gvtel.com> I cant speak to the IRC stuff since I never did use it much. I can say that as you stated Linux (mint) does just work now. I have in the recent past installed it on the laptops of three computer users that could navigate windows but not much beyond that. After I set them up with mint they were happy. No questions, no issues. I made sure they had chrome and firefox as that was what they were used to, plus an install of thunderbird just in case. I was expecting a fair amount of follow-up support would be needed, but it wasn't. They could web browse and email faster then they were used to and just very very happy with that. Back in 96 I downloaded the slackware distro one floppy at a time and set it up. It took me a few months to find a way to get X-windows running with my graphics card, but I did get there. It's nice to see that things have matured enough that you don't have to beat your head to use and love linux. (I know I'm sending this from a windows 10 install, but Linux is my main OS) On 1/9/2017 4:04 PM, Mike Miller wrote: > On Sun, 11 Sep 2016, Sandwhich Eyes wrote: > >> so do most people use irc now? >> i notice the volume of this list has gone from around 15 or so emails >> a day >> to 1 or 2 a week. >> where are all the newbie questions being answered? > > Maybe we don't have as many noobs, but I'll say for sure that these > two things have affected my use of the list: > > (1) Ubuntu/Linux software mostly just works for me now. It has > improved a lot over the years so I have fewer questions now. And... > > (2) Google answers a lot more questions than it used to. I find a lot > of answers on Ubuntu forums and such, so less need to ask here. > > I hope plenty of new people are getting into using Linux but I'm not > really sure what the data show. It seems like Macs with their OS X > unix really took off, but did that cut into the Linux user base? > > Best, > > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From carl.soderstrom at real-time.com Mon Jan 9 16:18:51 2017 From: carl.soderstrom at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2017 17:18:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> On 01/09 04:04 , Mike Miller wrote: > I hope plenty of new people are getting into using Linux but I'm not really > sure what the data show. It seems like Macs with their OS X unix really > took off, but did that cut into the Linux user base? I suspect it did. Anecdotally, here at Real Time Enterprises, we've been using OSX on the desktops for many many years. We do much the same things with them we did on Linux - run terminal windows and a web browser - but there are some helpful bits of the OSX software ecosystem as well such as 1Password for managing passwords, and Slack for communication. -- Carl Soderstrom Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From kris.browne at gmail.com Tue Jan 10 13:23:27 2017 From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 13:23:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> References: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> Message-ID: I was at a Usenix conference in 2002 and then 2003... what I could see then is that the percentage of Linux laptops vs PowerBooks flipped in pretty much one year. In '02 it was about 50% there using windows, 40% some kind of Linux (some of it on Apple hardware) and 10% Mac OSX. In '03 I'd have said it was about the same for Windows, but 30% Macs with Mac OSX and the remaining 20% Linux. That trend seems to have mostly continued. (\(\ ( -.-) Kris Browne o_(")(") kris.browne at gmail.com > On Jan 9, 2017, at 16:18, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > >> On 01/09 04:04 , Mike Miller wrote: >> I hope plenty of new people are getting into using Linux but I'm not really >> sure what the data show. It seems like Macs with their OS X unix really >> took off, but did that cut into the Linux user base? > > I suspect it did. > Anecdotally, here at Real Time Enterprises, we've been using OSX on the > desktops for many many years. We do much the same things with them we did on > Linux - run terminal windows and a web browser - but there are some helpful > bits of the OSX software ecosystem as well such as 1Password for managing > passwords, and Slack for communication. > > -- > Carl Soderstrom > Systems Administrator > Real-Time Enterprises > www.real-time.com > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From carl.soderstrom at real-time.com Tue Jan 10 15:33:15 2017 From: carl.soderstrom at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 16:33:15 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: References: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20170110213315.GB1407@real-time.com> On 01/10 01:23 , Kristopher Browne wrote: > I was at a Usenix conference in 2002 and then 2003... what I could see then is that the percentage of Linux laptops vs PowerBooks flipped in pretty much one year. > > In '02 it was about 50% there using windows, 40% some kind of Linux (some of it on Apple hardware) and 10% Mac OSX. > > In '03 I'd have said it was about the same for Windows, but 30% Macs with Mac OSX and the remaining 20% Linux. > > That trend seems to have mostly continued. Looking back, I think one of the limiting factors is that Linux desktop environments have not gotten any better since about that early-00s time period. They've gotten *different*, but not necessarily *better*. I've been doing Linux on the desktop for about 17 years at this point, and while there are now many more applications, and those applications are more functional, the usability and configurability of the base environment is little better than it was 10 years ago. Even if you can get past the UI differences (GNOME I'm looking at you), things as seemingly basic as changing the display resolution are difficult or impossible to find. It's not apparent to most users that there are two major different desktop environments (GNOME and KDE), and each has its *own* control panels. Then there's limitations like an inability to change the width of scrollbars, wierd semi-popup scrollbars like GNOME uses (which are hard to grab), different scrollbars between applications, undesireable inconsistencies in adherence to chosen color schemes (on one application a non-default background color works fine because you can change the text color, on another application the text color doesn't change which makes the text unreadable), etc. I accept that different widget sets will be with us for a long time to come. However, it would be nice if some effort was put into at least making a common format/method/interface for setting colors. So both GNOME and KDE widgets would use a common set of colors between them. -- Carl Soderstrom Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Jan 10 18:27:27 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 00:27:27 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: <20170110213315.GB1407@real-time.com> References: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> <20170110213315.GB1407@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20170111002727.GA18473@nobelware.com> Carl, Are we really having this discussion? (I mean it in a good way.) I thought that having choices was better than the alternative. Those of us with 23+ years on Linux have come a long way to still be looking at... FVWM2 for a window manager and liking it. In the interest of full disclosure, I hate Enlightenment (from the 90s), GNOME, KDE, etc. FVMW2 is super-configurable, and you can make the widgets look like you want, and no less than the Motif style (from way back when). I advocate for FVMW2 but I totally support anyone who wants to continue to make better desktop managers (a bad term for window manager). There is much out there, and with a little bit of help from your favourite google you can go a long ways in getting the thing configured to work well and look good. My 2 euro-cents. And Kristopher, Having closed all your source and making sure that it works on only _one_ piece of hardware that you sanction from the bottom up will take you a long way to making things work robustly. This is what Steve Jobs conceived a long time ago and what us with Linux will never advocate/agree/want to do, and with very very good reasons. So, yes, people choose the convenience and robustness of MacOSX, which comes at 3x the price of most commodity hardware of the same capabilities and is much less adhering to the unix standards than anything else. Flame me all you want, I also have a macbookair pile of junk at home that I use very often, but I am never leaving something us great of an idea and execution as Linux. From eng at pinenet.com Tue Jan 10 20:01:32 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2017 20:01:32 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <58741211.6000901@pinenet.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> <20170109205017.GA19217@nobelware.com> <58741211.6000901@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <587591FC.6040908@pinenet.com> I am trying to share an announcement of an Agriculture meeting to the "Twin Cities Linux Users Group." Please excuse the cut and paste text, but I suspect all the HTML links have my identity encoded. There must be some way to better integrate urban technology with enormous and diverse Minnesota resources. I don't have a clue how to do it. But the U of MN. and Linux computer skills are a good gamble. The contact phone number is toll free. Register Today for AURI's New Uses Innovation Forum ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ When Tuesday March 21, 2017 at 6:00 PM CDT -to- Wednesday March 22, 2017 at 5:00 PM CDT Where Crowne Plaza 3131 Campus Drive Plymouth, MN 55441 Dear Rick, With record crop yields projected for several regional commodities, the support and expansion of value-added agricultural products within Minnesota and the greater Midwest is of the utmost importance. To that end, AURI is inviting you to register today for New Uses Innovation Forum for Minnesota's agricultural industry. in Plymouth, MN, is bringing together experts and entrepreneurs from the new uses arena, R&D, and private sector. Together, they will participate in open discussions about the latest innovations and opportunities for developing new uses for Minnesota grown crops and agricultural processing byproducts. The day's events include: * Panel discussions, * Q&A sessions, * Networking opportunities and * Keynote addresses tailored to the interests of MN agriculture. Above all, this will be an event to bring people together under the common goal of encouraging new growth and innovation here in Minnesota. In addition, there will be a welcome reception held at the Crowne Plaza on the evening of March 21st, to which all attendees are invited. This evening event will include networking opportunities, complimentary hors d'oeuvres, a cash bar and welcome messages from AURI and some of the event's sponsors The cost of registration is $55, which covers all conference materials, meals and networking breaks as well as your ticket to the welcome reception. We hope to see you on March 22nd. In the meantime, if you'd like to learn more, please contact Erik Evans at AURI by calling 612-704-1120 or by email at Sincerely, Agricultural Utilization Research Institute Rick Engebretson wrote: > I don't pretend to be an up-to-date scientist. I've mentioned how > proud I was doing some transformation of co-ordinates calculations (I > learned in analytic mechanics physics) to draw a somewhat 3D > representation of the alpha-helix and beta-sheet poly-peptide > structures. More accurate were electro-optic coefficients calculated > by dividing mean dipole by root-mean-square moment. How I pulled that > off on an Epson QX10 Z80 computer and printer I don't know. But when I > handed it out Otto was excited, "Who did this?" I said to an > impressive group that I did. But real images were already being made, > just not doing the electro optic stuff. Now-a-days I have several very > advanced free Linux graphics programs for large molecules I don't know > how to use, an OpenGL screensaver using protein data-bank files that > invites lots more uses, and a lot of that stuff came from the U of MN. > Major league stuff, and I've even seen some of it includes some > peptide "circuit" analysis. We've come a long way. > > Today I got some energy Minnesota legislator staffer wanting a big > story about biomass, biochar, climate, etc. We even have the UN on our > Minnesota butts for using fossil fuels not to freeze to death. More > wars won't "Make America Great Again." > > Science matters. > > Iznogoud wrote: >> Rick, >> The quantum inferences, like frequency of inter-atomic vibrations, >> etc, are >> things that most people would not understand even if it was explained >> to them. >> I do not think too many people on this list know what you are talking >> about. >> Now, from the knowledge base that trickles down from the physical >> chemists we >> can all understand that one thing or two are or may be possible with >> certain >> "large" molecules. And the only connection to this and computers that >> I see >> right away is the calculations that go in support of chemistry and >> biology. >> >> I was involved in developing a code to do quasi-classical Monte-Carlo >> style >> calculations of certain (simple) reaction rates. There were billions >> of MD >> collisions simulated, and lots of CPU hours of electronic structure >> (quantum >> mech.) calculations to go behind it. All of this was running on >> thousands of >> cores powered by the Linux kernel... So, this type of work has been >> happening >> and will be happening for a long time to come. We are already there, >> as you >> probably know. >> >> There is a large supercomputing accessibility project called Xsede. >> People and >> companies can submit proposals to request computer time to do things >> like what >> you said (all computational, of course). I encourage the geeks among >> us to look >> it up. It is not tech-oriented in the "iphone" "app" and "IoT" way, >> but rather >> the old-school stuff Rick is talking about. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From carl.soderstrom at real-time.com Wed Jan 11 07:31:16 2017 From: carl.soderstrom at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 08:31:16 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: <20170111002727.GA18473@nobelware.com> References: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> <20170110213315.GB1407@real-time.com> <20170111002727.GA18473@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20170111133115.GD1407@real-time.com> On 01/11 12:27 , Iznogoud wrote: > Carl, > Are we really having this discussion? (I mean it in a good way.) I thought that > having choices was better than the alternative. Those of us with 23+ years on > Linux have come a long way to still be looking at... FVWM2 for a window manager > and liking it. I understand where you're coming from. I used FVWM2 for well over a decade, and I'm occasionally tempted to go back to it. I know it's gotten some updates since I last used it. FWIW, Linus himself used it for quite a while, or so he told me at a conference back in 1999. So we're in good company. :) If I had any clue about programming, one of the things I might do would be to write some patches for FVWM2. I'd love to see someone pick up the circular menus from piewm. They seem like a decent (if a little unusual) UI design choice. (http://www.crynwr.com/piewm/piewm-shadow-menus.gif) Also, non-full-width titlebars are a great UI feature. Why have the titlebar wider than it needs to be? Partial-width titlebars allow overlapping windows without losing the window behind. The BII theme from KDE (sadly removed for lack of maintenance in the most recent version) even shifted the titlebars so it was possible to treat overlapping windows in the same way you treat tabs in your web browser. Extending that idea, wouldn't it be great to explicitly 'weld' windows together? Either at the sides or overlapping, using the above-mentioned tab-like functionality of short titlebars? Sadly, my brain just doesn't handle coding particularly well, so I can't pick up this sort of project myself. -- Carl Soderstrom Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From iznogoud at nobelware.com Wed Jan 11 09:40:14 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 15:40:14 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: <20170111133115.GD1407@real-time.com> References: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> <20170110213315.GB1407@real-time.com> <20170111002727.GA18473@nobelware.com> <20170111133115.GD1407@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20170111154014.GA19170@nobelware.com> On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 08:31:16AM -0500, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > Extending that idea, wouldn't it be great to explicitly 'weld' windows > together? Either at the sides or overlapping, using the above-mentioned > tab-like functionality of short titlebars? Sadly, my brain just doesn't > handle coding particularly well, so I can't pick up this sort of project > myself. > Oh man you are ruining my life... as if I did not have enough projects. Welding windows, as in, having distributive motion operators to move them by exactly the same amount together, is a great idea. It is possible that it can be done with FVWM2 and possibly other window managers. You are ruining my life because I am tasking myself to finding out if it is possible. The last thing I want to do is dig into the FVWM2 code and write it myself... Will report back. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Wed Jan 11 09:47:32 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 15:47:32 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <587591FC.6040908@pinenet.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> <20170109205017.GA19217@nobelware.com> <58741211.6000901@pinenet.com> <587591FC.6040908@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20170111154732.GB19170@nobelware.com> Rick, I would like to bring to your attention the urban agriculture movement, which is growing in the US as of the last 5 years. It is quite big in Chicago and there are (in my opinion) other places, like Detroit, with vast amounts of unused warehouse space and lots of access to transportation, where this sort of industry can thrive. There is a very large greenhouse in St Paul (close to the State Capitol) that is operated by a local distributor of produce. There are smaller installations in Minneapolis as well. youtube has videos from a huge facility in Toronto. In my opinion, this is part of the future of agriculture in the northern plains. If combined with intelligent and sustainable energy production practices, lots of automation, etc, it can be key to the local economy and sustainability. From carl.soderstrom at real-time.com Wed Jan 11 09:52:31 2017 From: carl.soderstrom at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 10:52:31 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: <20170111154014.GA19170@nobelware.com> References: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> <20170110213315.GB1407@real-time.com> <20170111002727.GA18473@nobelware.com> <20170111133115.GD1407@real-time.com> <20170111154014.GA19170@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20170111155230.GF1407@real-time.com> On 01/11 03:40 , Iznogoud wrote: > On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 08:31:16AM -0500, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > > > > Extending that idea, wouldn't it be great to explicitly 'weld' windows > > together? Either at the sides or overlapping, using the above-mentioned > > tab-like functionality of short titlebars? Sadly, my brain just doesn't > > handle coding particularly well, so I can't pick up this sort of project > > myself. > > > > Oh man you are ruining my life... as if I did not have enough projects. Welding > windows, as in, having distributive motion operators to move them by exactly the > same amount together, is a great idea. It is possible that it can be done with > FVWM2 and possibly other window managers. You are ruining my life because I am > tasking myself to finding out if it is possible. The last thing I want to do is > dig into the FVWM2 code and write it myself... Will report back. I have it in my head that there's a WM which can already do this. I want to say PekWM, but it's been a while since i looked at it, so I'm probably wrong. I'm reasonably sure I've seen the functionality implemented somewhere. Certainly the QMMP audio-player app sort of 'magnetizes' its subwindows, so if they're placed next to each other they 'stick' to each other. -- Carl Soderstrom Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From eng at pinenet.com Wed Jan 11 11:42:37 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Wed, 11 Jan 2017 11:42:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Sunday Strib Prof. Otto Schmitt OpEd In-Reply-To: <20170111154732.GB19170@nobelware.com> References: <586CD9E1.7040707@pinenet.com> <20170105200916.GA14864@nobelware.com> <586EB3A8.5000602@pinenet.com> <20170105213757.GA17995@nobelware.com> <586EEA83.8080604@pinenet.com> <20170109205017.GA19217@nobelware.com> <58741211.6000901@pinenet.com> <587591FC.6040908@pinenet.com> <20170111154732.GB19170@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <58766E8D.4090504@pinenet.com> This probably isn't the most private place to discuss this. But heck, change has to happen. I totally agree with the urban farming. I lived in the Selby-Western area of St. Paul in the early 1970s before it was cool. Tried to learn piano at a local community center from a black teacher (Mr. Whitacre) who kept playing Chopin when Scott Joplin was popular. Lowertown St. Paul was abandoned, except for a farmers market, when they let me play scientist. So I lived the back to the city scene before I rediscovered the rural scene. Community gardens were way before my time. So yes, guys like me do some dirty work, then politicians, bankers and speculators take over. Right now our rural area looks like Wayzata. Stereotypes don't work. What is obvious to me is we desperately need better rural land use. And I think the old computer innovators have ideal skills. With everybody worried about grid hacking and terrorism, our energy grid infrastructure could be greatly upgraded. The solar photo-voltaic and windmill and battery baloney is a weak competitor to your car's generated power and electronics. But we need fuels, and the corn ethanol as energy security story proved false. We can make a lot of energy product out here. But we need more scientists, not more diesel mechanics. It's kind of like the internet as a communications national security development. People think the NSA spies on the internet, but the NSA built the internet. Iznogoud wrote: > Rick, I would like to bring to your attention the urban agriculture movement, > which is growing in the US as of the last 5 years. It is quite big in Chicago > and there are (in my opinion) other places, like Detroit, with vast amounts of > unused warehouse space and lots of access to transportation, where this sort of > industry can thrive. > > There is a very large greenhouse in St Paul (close to the State Capitol) that > is operated by a local distributor of produce. There are smaller installations > in Minneapolis as well. youtube has videos from a huge facility in Toronto. > > In my opinion, this is part of the future of agriculture in the northern plains. > If combined with intelligent and sustainable energy production practices, lots > of automation, etc, it can be key to the local economy and sustainability. > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From mbmiller+l at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 00:53:12 2017 From: mbmiller+l at gmail.com (Mike Miller) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 00:53:12 -0600 (CST) Subject: [tclug-list] old DirecTV DVR - Philips DSR708 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Apparently, these things are worthless and I have a few of them here. DirecTV lets me print out mailing labels so that I can ship them back for recycling. I thought maybe people would want some parts or hard drives from them, but it probably isn't worth the trouble. Sorry to waste the bandwidth here! Mike On Mon, 9 Jan 2017, Mike Miller wrote: > I don't know if this is the kind of thing anyone would want. It's an old > DirecTV DVR, definitely working, with power cord, S-video cable and remote. > I had it sitting around for years with some old recordings. I just finished > watching them, so I can say for sure that it works. > > Here's some info about it: > http://www.tivopedia.com/model-philips-dsr708.php > > I don't know what can be done with this old box, but if anyone can use it, it > is yours free. Whoever claims it first can have it. If no one wants it, > I'll dispose of it. > > Thanks. > > Mike > From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 07:17:44 2017 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 07:17:44 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question Message-ID: Greetings Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping software but that's a different argument!). What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for some complexity? (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.) TIA Dee From sjruprecht at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 08:57:37 2017 From: sjruprecht at gmail.com (Steve Ruprecht) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 08:57:37 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: GnuCash is a good option. On Jan 12, 2017 7:17 AM, "o1bigtenor" wrote: > Greetings > > Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what > is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping > software but that's a different argument!). > > What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for > some complexity? > (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I > want.) > > TIA > > Dee > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kris.browne at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 09:11:55 2017 From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 09:11:55 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Given that you?re describing multi-user and moderate complexity, you might want to look to something like Apache OFB that?d run server-side. > On Jan 12, 2017, at 8:57 AM, Steve Ruprecht wrote: > > GnuCash is a good option. > > On Jan 12, 2017 7:17 AM, "o1bigtenor" > wrote: > Greetings > > Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what > is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping > software but that's a different argument!). > > What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for > some complexity? > (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.) > > TIA > > Dee > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carl.soderstrom at real-time.com Thu Jan 12 10:31:51 2017 From: carl.soderstrom at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 11:31:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170112163150.GP1407@real-time.com> On 01/12 07:17 , o1bigtenor wrote: > Greetings > > Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what > is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping > software but that's a different argument!). > > What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for > some complexity? > (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.) Once upon a time I administrated an instance of OSAS on Linux. https://www.osas.com/multi-platform It's not cheap (you're looking at probably $15K-$25K depending on what modules you want), but it is powerful and scaleable. I'd encourage you to look into it at least. -- Carl Soderstrom Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 10:49:59 2017 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:49:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: <20170112163150.GP1407@real-time.com> References: <20170112163150.GP1407@real-time.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 10:31 AM, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote: > On 01/12 07:17 , o1bigtenor wrote: >> Greetings >> >> Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what >> is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping >> software but that's a different argument!). >> >> What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for >> some complexity? >> (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.) > > > Once upon a time I administrated an instance of OSAS on Linux. > https://www.osas.com/multi-platform > > It's not cheap (you're looking at probably $15K-$25K depending on what > modules you want), but it is powerful and scaleable. I'd encourage you to > look into it at least. > Not sure I could afford such. That would cost 25% of my equipment costs for my startup. Thanks for the idea. Will look at it. Regards Dee From iznogoud at nobelware.com Thu Jan 12 10:56:27 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 16:56:27 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] old DirecTV DVR - Philips DSR708 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170112165627.GA10694@nobelware.com> On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 12:53:12AM -0600, Mike Miller wrote: > > Apparently, these things are worthless and I have a few of them here. > DirecTV lets me print out mailing labels so that I can ship them back for > recycling. I thought maybe people would want some parts or hard drives > from them, but it probably isn't worth the trouble. Sorry to waste the > bandwidth here! > No waste at all here. We are all about re-using other people's trash and not just throwing things to wastelands. Nearly all of my systems are or are running one second hand components other than maybe harddrives. From lkateley at kateley.com Thu Jan 12 10:52:26 2017 From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 10:52:26 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <99684bfa-441b-4d40-d8e9-dcae1ccdcad3@kateley.com> I use wave accounting. It's online and free, love it. Linda On 1/12/17 7:17 AM, o1bigtenor wrote: > Greetings > > Am trying to find (for need in the not to distant future) some of what > is normally called 'accounting' software (its really record keeping > software but that's a different argument!). > > What are you using that is, or could be, multi-user and has room for > some complexity? > (I am presently using 10 digit account numbers to get the granularity I want.) > > TIA > > Dee > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From iznogoud at nobelware.com Thu Jan 12 10:59:12 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 16:59:12 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: <20170112163150.GP1407@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20170112165912.GB10694@nobelware.com> Thanks for posting this thread; this is really useful actually. From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Thu Jan 12 11:27:40 2017 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 11:27:40 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: <99684bfa-441b-4d40-d8e9-dcae1ccdcad3@kateley.com> References: <99684bfa-441b-4d40-d8e9-dcae1ccdcad3@kateley.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 10:52 AM, Linda Kateley wrote: > I use wave accounting. It's online and free, love it. > > Linda > Thanks Linda Looked at their website - - - - almost no information there. Is this an online only service? I live in the internet boonies so I've learned to hate 'online' services. They work well when you have big pipes but when you don't - - - well - - - they don't! Regards Darald From iznogoud at nobelware.com Thu Jan 12 17:27:51 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 23:27:51 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: <99684bfa-441b-4d40-d8e9-dcae1ccdcad3@kateley.com> Message-ID: <20170112232751.GA24680@nobelware.com> Here is something that I had completely missed here and I should mention. How about going for a commercial product that is relatively low cost, like a Microsoft product say, and run it over Wine? Look in here and see what you can find: https://appdb.winehq.org/ I have had very good luck running crap that does not interact much with the hardware (3d, audio, etc). You have simple requirements; it should work for you. The company that supports Wine and the commercial spin of it is right here in town (CodeWeavers) and friendly to this list. From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Thu Jan 12 20:33:46 2017 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2017 20:33:46 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question Message-ID: have installed LedgerSMB for others to use. i can't personally speak to using it, i believe it's fairly industrial strength. have used gnucash for years myself, it works well, tho am considering moving online to wave or something like it, linda does it really not have reconciling features? and you just handle that yourself? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjensen at apache.org Fri Jan 13 09:03:28 2017 From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 09:03:28 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used QuickBooks for many years across a few businesses and it works very well. It's not very pricey ($200 range based on the version/features), lots of features such as multi-user, account transaction download, inventory tracking, etc. Similar look and feel as Quicken, as Intuit made both. On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 8:33 PM, gregrwm wrote: > have installed LedgerSMB for others to use. i can't personally speak to > using it, i believe it's fairly industrial strength. have used gnucash for > years myself, it works well, tho am considering moving online to wave or > something like it, linda does it really not have reconciling features? and > you just handle that yourself? > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 11:59:18 2017 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 11:59:18 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 9:03 AM, Jeff Jensen wrote: > I used QuickBooks for many years across a few businesses and it works very > well. It's not very pricey ($200 range based on the version/features), lots > of features such as multi-user, account transaction download, inventory > tracking, etc. > > Similar look and feel as Quicken, as Intuit made both. > > > On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 8:33 PM, gregrwm wrote: >> >> have installed LedgerSMB for others to use. i can't personally speak to >> using it, i believe it's fairly industrial strength. have used gnucash for >> years myself, it works well, tho am considering moving online to wave or >> something like it, linda does it really not have reconciling features? and >> you just handle that yourself? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> Have considered QuickBooks but when I looked they limit accounts to 5 digits and bork at numbers oever 5999 IIRC. GIFI codes go up to 9999 and I've developed an account code system where I'm using 10 digits for granularity. (Makes some management things much easier.) The other issue that isn't easy to resolve is that all your financial records are in a format that really doesn't connect too well with anything else. So if you had to move then you have a BIG problem at that time. Thanks for the ideas! Dee From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 14:08:52 2017 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 14:08:52 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question Message-ID: o1bigtenor writes: > Thanks Linda > > Looked at their website - - - - almost no information there. > Is this an online only service? > > I live in the internet boonies so I've learned to hate 'online' services. > They work well when you have big pipes but when you don't - - - > well - - - they don't! What services haven't worked well for you? You have a gmail account so I guess you are able to use that. Web/http based services are slower than binary based services, but they are easier to develop than binary services. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - ?If I am I because I am you, and you are you because you are me, then I am not I and you are not you. But if I am I because I am I and you are you because you are you, then I am I and you are you!? Rebbe of Kotzk http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Jan 13 16:32:11 2017 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2017 16:32:11 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > o1bigtenor writes: > >> Thanks Linda >> >> Looked at their website - - - - almost no information there. >> Is this an online only service? >> >> I live in the internet boonies so I've learned to hate 'online' services. >> They work well when you have big pipes but when you don't - - - >> well - - - they don't! > > What services haven't worked well for you? You have a > gmail account so I guess you are able to use that. Text based stuff usually works well. I have a couple services I've subscribed to that are web based. All too often when I want to work on that stuff throughput just is pathetic. As a rural internet customer I am expected to think that speeds that were OK in major urban areas 15 years ago are wonderful - - - - they're not! As most web designs today have subscribed to the massive pretty picture syndrome it becomes progressively more difficult to use an exploding band width product on a creeping (for improvement) band width product. > > Web/http based services are slower than binary based > services, but they are easier to develop than binary services. That would depend upon exactly what you are developing. As a so far non-programmer (working on changing that due to necessity) developing golly gee whiz stuff is easy but developing solid carefully crafted useful stuff is not easy but then I don't think it ever was! Regards Dee From marc at e-skinner.net Mon Jan 16 17:48:04 2017 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 17:48:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] For sale Message-ID: Dell Poweredge 840 - $50 2gb of ECC RAM Dual core intel 2.8ghz 80G HD Built in dual port 1gb NICs From tclug at jfoo.org Sat Jan 21 21:34:53 2017 From: tclug at jfoo.org (tclug at jfoo.org) Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2017 21:34:53 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? Message-ID: My question du jour: what daemon controlling system do you use? I've been using daemontools for years, but don't like the timestamps or the way directories are part of the UI (for command invocation). It is also no longer maintained, though one point of view is that it doesn't need to be maintained. Any preferences? Or systems to be avoided? I'm looking at runit - a daemontools replacement. But there's also systemd and a pile of others. John From eng at pinenet.com Sun Jan 22 04:56:56 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 04:56:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58848FF8.9070906@pinenet.com> I cheat, and have used SuSE Linux since version 6.1. I've tried other flavors and am sure I'm just lazy and stupid, but suse's "Yast" configuration tool has always done most of the complex work. IIRC, the particular Yast tool is called /etc/sysconfig editor. If anybody else used suse I would do a little more research, but the ubuntu fans will have different ideas. Again, IIRC, MSWindows had a similar GUI tool "msconfig" that was useful, so it seems likely to be an operating system vendor specific tool. Some daemons are now part of the desktop window manager. KDE4 has a daemon called "Apper" that seems a little dangerous. While the user is doing his thing, Apper is wandering internet software repositories ready to "update" your system. This feature both competes with and bypasses the deliberate suse Yast software tool. I'm sure the professional server maintainers on this board have the needed skills. tclug at jfoo.org wrote: > My question du jour: what daemon controlling system do you use? > > I've been using daemontools for years, but don't like the timestamps > or the way > directories are part of the UI (for command invocation). It is also no > longer > maintained, though one point of view is that it doesn't need to be > maintained. > > Any preferences? Or systems to be avoided? I'm looking at runit - a > daemontools > replacement. But there's also systemd and a pile of others. > > John > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From eng at pinenet.com Sun Jan 22 05:47:27 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 05:47:27 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux timers Message-ID: <58849BCF.8070900@pinenet.com> According to Linux manual page "time.7" a new timer capability was introduced in kernel 2.6.21. It is called "High-Resolution Timers." According to various other documentation, this new kernel timer capability is now separated from the older, more familiar timers that merely approximate a timeout condition. There are several names encountered trying to learn the mechanism of this clock. Some info can be obtained by entering the /proc/ directory and typing "cat timer_list" in a terminal window. My opensuse 12.3 32 bit desktop kernel indicates "CONFIG_HIGH_RES_TIMERS" is set yes, on some old Intel Core Duo motherboards. I think 64 bit is default set yes. So this is not obscure, off the wall. I think the new feature is intended for multimedia use, in general. But Real Time microsecond accuracy on Linux certainly creates opportunity beyond sound and video. My interest followed playing with XForms-toolkit stripchart demos. Various usual timeout, timer, sleep tools just can't produce a valid sine wave. especially with an active mouse. Obviously, I wasn't alone seeking a specialized precision timer. Learning how to actually use this new Linux feature is currently unclear. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Jan 22 20:58:41 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 02:58:41 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux timers In-Reply-To: <58849BCF.8070900@pinenet.com> References: <58849BCF.8070900@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20170123025841.GA8597@nobelware.com> To the original question, I think there is nothing better than editing files by hand when it comes to configuring things. This is one of the powerful things about the unix (and Linux). Convenience, like using GUIs, comes at a price, and you are relying on somebody else's idea of convenience, robustness and more importantly security. Never take my advise, but it is to learn to do everything properly and from the command-line. Keep unix unix and thank me later. There are many books on the subject. Get one and start reading and keep it as a reference. If you want a quick start within the next few minutes, here is your freebie: http://tldp.org/LDP/sag/sag.pdf The kernel has received updates, and several more daemons and other system related components have been added to Linux, and many more so on the more bleeding edge distributions. So, expect that you will have to stay up-to-date and that it is a moving target. (I do remember the day that "shadow" passwords were added to prevent hashed ones from being visible to common users.) As for high-resolution timers, it is not like anything has really changed in terms of using them and programming with them. The manual page Rick mentioned is here: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/time.7.html It states that the _first_ update to jiffes was done by increasing the timer's resolution by a lot, and then shortly after was given several possible modes of operation, with multimedia applications in mind. But the high resolution timers were added later, and in my mind they are in support of more time critical applications, like real-time systems that perform data acquisition for experiments and other real-life equipment. There is nothing crazy about using HRTs in programming. How about something like clock_gettime() and so on? Here is an extract from the man pages from my system (slackware 14.1): #include int clock_getres(clockid_t clk_id, struct timespec *res); int clock_gettime(clockid_t clk_id, struct timespec *tp); int clock_settime(clockid_t clk_id, const struct timespec *tp); Nothing more bare-bones thant in my opinion... The gospel by Robert Love is what I use for a linux system programming reference book: Love, Robert, "Linux System Programming," 2nd, Ed., O'Reily, 2013. I love that book. From eng at pinenet.com Sun Jan 22 22:54:57 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2017 22:54:57 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux timers In-Reply-To: <20170123025841.GA8597@nobelware.com> References: <58849BCF.8070900@pinenet.com> <20170123025841.GA8597@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <58858CA1.2030707@pinenet.com> Sincere thanks for your always thoughtful reply. Regarding the first issue, managing daemons, I admitted to cheating and ignorance. I hope you and other unix gurus help the guy asking the question. Regarding the timers issue, the "time.7" is just what shows on the tkman (nice manpage reader) header. But yes, that's a great starting point. And yes, you C whizkids make it look easy. And further, yes C++ is the way to proceed. Please look next at manual page "timer_create.2" . This is all new Posix compliance tools. There is an example provided. Apparently, the call even allows you to define several types of clocks and event reporting. I don't understand "threads" and "virtual" stuff, but I do understand a "process." Using freepascal 3.0.0 to access C library calls isn't hard. But the timer_create manpage also indicates a needed link to "-lrt" . The freepascal team has added a lot of Unix and Linux calls over the years, but not this one yet. I've done this before, and that's why I got old. Understanding the XForms-toolkit somewhat, I do think this approach is much better precision than the legacy timeout functions used in the toolkit. And the XForms maintainer rightly criticized my using a system Sleep call to get better accuracy, since it blocked XWindow events too. So I think this is a very versatile feature to play with drawing complex functions on a screen stripchart. When I get a decent set of software I'll try put it on a little web site. Even try put up a few binary programs so you don't have to work so hard to figure what I'm talking about. Thanks for trying. Iznogoud wrote: > To the original question, I think there is nothing better than editing files > by hand when it comes to configuring things. This is one of the powerful things > about the unix (and Linux). Convenience, like using GUIs, comes at a price, and > you are relying on somebody else's idea of convenience, robustness and more > importantly security. Never take my advise, but it is to learn to do everything > properly and from the command-line. Keep unix unix and thank me later. > > There are many books on the subject. Get one and start reading and keep it as > a reference. If you want a quick start within the next few minutes, here is > your freebie: http://tldp.org/LDP/sag/sag.pdf The kernel has received updates, > and several more daemons and other system related components have been added > to Linux, and many more so on the more bleeding edge distributions. So, expect > that you will have to stay up-to-date and that it is a moving target. (I do > remember the day that "shadow" passwords were added to prevent hashed ones from > being visible to common users.) > > > As for high-resolution timers, it is not like anything has really changed in > terms of using them and programming with them. The manual page Rick mentioned > is here: http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man7/time.7.html > It states that the _first_ update to jiffes was done by increasing the timer's > resolution by a lot, and then shortly after was given several possible modes > of operation, with multimedia applications in mind. But the high resolution > timers were added later, and in my mind they are in support of more time > critical applications, like real-time systems that perform data acquisition > for experiments and other real-life equipment. > > There is nothing crazy about using HRTs in programming. How about something > like clock_gettime() and so on? Here is an extract from the man pages from my > system (slackware 14.1): > > #include > > int clock_getres(clockid_t clk_id, struct timespec *res); > > int clock_gettime(clockid_t clk_id, struct timespec *tp); > > int clock_settime(clockid_t clk_id, const struct timespec *tp); > > Nothing more bare-bones thant in my opinion... > > The gospel by Robert Love is what I use for a linux system programming > reference book: > Love, Robert, "Linux System Programming," 2nd, Ed., O'Reily, 2013. > > I love that book. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Mon Jan 23 19:09:27 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 01:09:27 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] irc In-Reply-To: <20170111154014.GA19170@nobelware.com> References: <20170109221851.GG46102@real-time.com> <20170110213315.GB1407@real-time.com> <20170111002727.GA18473@nobelware.com> <20170111133115.GD1407@real-time.com> <20170111154014.GA19170@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20170124010927.GA27479@nobelware.com> I finally found time to look into this. Yes, fvwm2 does support mutual window "snapping" from what I read (W00T!) here: http://fvwm.org/documentation/faq/#lining-up-your-windows-and-icons I have not (yet) tried it. On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 03:40:14PM +0000, Iznogoud wrote: > > Oh man you are ruining my life... as if I did not have enough projects. Welding > windows, as in, having distributive motion operators to move them by exactly the > same amount together, is a great idea. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Mon Jan 23 19:46:04 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 01:46:04 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux timers In-Reply-To: <58858CA1.2030707@pinenet.com> References: <58849BCF.8070900@pinenet.com> <20170123025841.GA8597@nobelware.com> <58858CA1.2030707@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20170124014604.GB27479@nobelware.com> > > Please look next at manual page "timer_create.2" . This is all new Posix > compliance tools. There is an example provided. Apparently, the call > even allows you to define several types of clocks and event reporting. I > don't understand "threads" and "virtual" stuff, but I do understand a > "process." > I looked at the manual page. Yes, it is all POSIX and in general if your application is sticking with unix, you want to stick to POSIX pieces of the glibc and the kernel. This particular piece of work, as the manual page states, is a mix of kernel work and some glibc pieces. This is very good in my opinion (to have most of it in glibc), as the user gets a lot of say in what happens during execution. There is an example given, but I do not think it would be instructive for you given that you do not touch C or system programming. But, in a nutshell, the example shows how a signal handler is established (in a special way) to trap timer expiration events for this particular process alone. It sets the signal handler and first blocks trapping of that signal by the handler. It gives the process time to establish the timer; which is the meanigful thing to do. Then, it unblocks the signal handling and sends the main process work to sleep. The timer will have expired when the process wakes up. The pending signal will "fall" into the handler when that happens. It works as expected. It is not the most instructive example, but it does do what it promises. I tried it as is and I tried it without blocking the signal trapping at all. In the former case (original code), it waited for 1 second before it trapped the signal due to the timer having expired. In that latter, the handler invoked immediately (after the 100 nanoseconds I had specified) while the process was starting to go to sleep for a second. One more (possibly instructive to you) point. If you follow this model of using HRTs and want to work with signals that are picked from specific timers, you will have to provide handler functions. Those become detached POSIX threads (is my understanding) to execute the handler code. There is no other way, if you think about it. You can certainly achieve realtimeness that way. Or you can engineer your UI so that it traps signals and then re-freshes the screen at constant framerate. A thread in the backend can do all intensive work and set a flag for what it is done. The main loop of the UI keeps checking the flag and draws new things when the flag is set and it unsets it. Really easy to program... > Using freepascal 3.0.0 to access C library calls isn't hard. But the > timer_create manpage also indicates a needed link to "-lrt" . The > freepascal team has added a lot of Unix and Linux calls over the years, > but not this one yet. I've done this before, and that's why I got old. > I had to link with -lrt (of course). It does not matter what the Pascal compiler and linker invokation do. I would make sure the Pascal compiler can produce compiled object code (.o files) and then link with the linker externally or just link with gcc (the C compiler/linker stript). > Understanding the XForms-toolkit somewhat, I do think this approach is > much better precision than the legacy timeout functions used in the > toolkit. And the XForms maintainer rightly criticized my using a system > Sleep call to get better accuracy, since it blocked XWindow events too. > So I think this is a very versatile feature to play with drawing complex > functions on a screen stripchart. > Yes, do not sleep the main process that handles X window events... You will get a freeze and then possibly a pile of events to be handled at once. You typically want your UI to run in semi real-time and have all processing done in the background; this can include UI event-handling. Most people do not concern themselves with realtimeness issues and make the main code the UI event handler. I think this is bad practice, but it has a low barrier to entry for programmers and for non-intesive work. > When I get a decent set of software I'll try put it on a little web > site. Even try put up a few binary programs so you don't have to work so > hard to figure what I'm talking about. Thanks for trying. > Use Github. I do use it for such things. I hope I had shed some light in this for you and I have not wasted anybody else's time with yet another pedantic post. From eng at pinenet.com Mon Jan 23 20:39:59 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2017 20:39:59 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux timers In-Reply-To: <20170124014604.GB27479@nobelware.com> References: <58849BCF.8070900@pinenet.com> <20170123025841.GA8597@nobelware.com> <58858CA1.2030707@pinenet.com> <20170124014604.GB27479@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <5886BE7F.7020202@pinenet.com> Absolutely outstanding. Again, sincere thanks. Right now I'm reading "Programming for the Real World; POSIX.4," by Bill O. Gallmeister; Copyright 1995 by O'Reilly & Associates Inc. The book is much clearer than the Linux manpages, and explains why these Posix.4 timers are an important new aspect of Linux (Unix) software. I got the book many years ago when I thought the Linux 2.4 kernel was great. Now seeing industrial linux hardware the size of this book with real-time capabilities, it is a topic worth being aware of I believe. Many years ago I did a lot of "libc" adaptation of signals, semaphores, the UART, etc. in freepascal. It's quite easy really, but I have not yet found what's in librt; I know it comes with libc. Not your (C, C++ programmer) problem at all, just a Pascal problem since I need to know where functions are accessed. As for the stripchart XForms program, you are right, I have a lot to figure out. It still draws reasonably accurate trigometric functions. It will be a great goal to have a useful set to offer. Since you have worked Monte Carlo (random) collision chemical reaction kinetics theory simulations you might like to see how 3 or more sine waves add up graphically. My outdoor long range television antenna is a good oversize model of a molecule, with molecule dipoles instead in the optical wavelength range. Chemistry does not need to be "random." Innovation matters. Iznogoud wrote: >> Please look next at manual page "timer_create.2" . This is all new Posix >> compliance tools. There is an example provided. Apparently, the call >> even allows you to define several types of clocks and event reporting. I >> don't understand "threads" and "virtual" stuff, but I do understand a >> "process." >> > I looked at the manual page. Yes, it is all POSIX and in general if your > application is sticking with unix, you want to stick to POSIX pieces of > the glibc and the kernel. This particular piece of work, as the manual > page states, is a mix of kernel work and some glibc pieces. This is very > good in my opinion (to have most of it in glibc), as the user gets a lot > of say in what happens during execution. > > There is an example given, but I do not think it would be instructive for > you given that you do not touch C or system programming. But, in a nutshell, > the example shows how a signal handler is established (in a special way) > to trap timer expiration events for this particular process alone. It sets > the signal handler and first blocks trapping of that signal by the handler. > It gives the process time to establish the timer; which is the meanigful > thing to do. Then, it unblocks the signal handling and sends the main > process work to sleep. The timer will have expired when the process wakes > up. The pending signal will "fall" into the handler when that happens. > > It works as expected. It is not the most instructive example, but it does > do what it promises. I tried it as is and I tried it without blocking the > signal trapping at all. In the former case (original code), it waited for > 1 second before it trapped the signal due to the timer having expired. In > that latter, the handler invoked immediately (after the 100 nanoseconds I > had specified) while the process was starting to go to sleep for a second. > > One more (possibly instructive to you) point. If you follow this model of > using HRTs and want to work with signals that are picked from specific > timers, you will have to provide handler functions. Those become detached > POSIX threads (is my understanding) to execute the handler code. There is > no other way, if you think about it. You can certainly achieve realtimeness > that way. Or you can engineer your UI so that it traps signals and then > re-freshes the screen at constant framerate. A thread in the backend can > do all intensive work and set a flag for what it is done. The main loop of > the UI keeps checking the flag and draws new things when the flag is set > and it unsets it. Really easy to program... > > >> Using freepascal 3.0.0 to access C library calls isn't hard. But the >> timer_create manpage also indicates a needed link to "-lrt" . The >> freepascal team has added a lot of Unix and Linux calls over the years, >> but not this one yet. I've done this before, and that's why I got old. >> > > I had to link with -lrt (of course). It does not matter what the Pascal > compiler and linker invokation do. I would make sure the Pascal compiler > can produce compiled object code (.o files) and then link with the linker > externally or just link with gcc (the C compiler/linker stript). > > >> Understanding the XForms-toolkit somewhat, I do think this approach is >> much better precision than the legacy timeout functions used in the >> toolkit. And the XForms maintainer rightly criticized my using a system >> Sleep call to get better accuracy, since it blocked XWindow events too. >> So I think this is a very versatile feature to play with drawing complex >> functions on a screen stripchart. >> > Yes, do not sleep the main process that handles X window events... You will > get a freeze and then possibly a pile of events to be handled at once. You > typically want your UI to run in semi real-time and have all processing > done in the background; this can include UI event-handling. Most people do > not concern themselves with realtimeness issues and make the main code the > UI event handler. I think this is bad practice, but it has a low barrier to > entry for programmers and for non-intesive work. > > >> When I get a decent set of software I'll try put it on a little web >> site. Even try put up a few binary programs so you don't have to work so >> hard to figure what I'm talking about. Thanks for trying. >> > Use Github. I do use it for such things. > > I hope I had shed some light in this for you and I have not wasted anybody > else's time with yet another pedantic post. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Jan 24 08:10:13 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 14:10:13 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux timers In-Reply-To: <5886BE7F.7020202@pinenet.com> References: <58849BCF.8070900@pinenet.com> <20170123025841.GA8597@nobelware.com> <58858CA1.2030707@pinenet.com> <20170124014604.GB27479@nobelware.com> <5886BE7F.7020202@pinenet.com> Message-ID: <20170124141013.GA22929@nobelware.com> You are welcome. You went a bit on a derailing train-of-thought tangent there with the antenna and lost me, but we still like you and we will keep you around! Post that code on Github and send a link and I will look at it. I am sure I can help you get some decent realtimeness out of your graphing code. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Jan 24 14:20:11 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:20:11 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> John, the following was intended for you and it was yanked-pasted into the wrong message sent ot Rick. Response below. > > My question du jour: what daemon controlling system do you use? > > I've been using daemontools for years, but don't like the timestamps or > the way > directories are part of the UI (for command invocation). It is also no > longer > maintained, though one point of view is that it doesn't need to be > maintained. > > Any preferences? Or systems to be avoided? I'm looking at runit - a > daemontools > replacement. But there's also systemd and a pile of others. > > John To the original question, I think there is nothing better than editing files by hand when it comes to configuring things. This is one of the powerful things about the unix (and Linux). Convenience, like using GUIs, comes at a price, and you are relying on somebody else's idea of convenience, robustness and more importantly security. Never take my advise, but it is to learn to do everything properly and from the command-line. Keep unix unix and thank me later. There are many books on the subject. Get one and start reading and keep it as a reference. If you want a quick start within the next few minutes, here is your freebie: http://tldp.org/LDP/sag/sag.pdf The kernel has received updates, and several more daemons and other system related components have been added to Linux, and many more so on the more bleeding edge distributions. So, expect that you will have to stay up-to-date and that it is a moving target. (I do remember the day that "shadow" passwords were added to prevent hashed ones from being visible to common users.) From tclug at jfoo.org Tue Jan 24 14:33:52 2017 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 20:33:52 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> References: <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> Hi, and thanks for the reply. However, it's not the question I was asking. If, for example, I write the next killer SMTP server, that application needs to run all the time, as a daemon. (I don't intend to write the next killer SMTP server, just using it as an example of a daemon). If I just start the app with nohup, and it crashes, I don't know, and my SMTP is down. Same thing with screen/tmux. I can start it via init, but that usually doesn't include monitoring and restarting either. I can write my app as a daemon, but that is adding to the complexity with no real benefit - daemonizing is something that has been done outside the app for years. daemontools is a suite writing by Dan J Bernstein of qmail fame that provides tools for running apps as daemons, especially the restarting and logging. It works fairly well - takes a command and runs it as a daemon. However it logs messages with a strange non-human readable timestamp. And to remove a service is the arcane: cd /service/telnetd rm /service/telnetd svc -dx . log Note you change to a directory and then delete that same directory. I was hoping for insight into what others use for daemon control in place of daemontools. For what it is worth, my research so far indicates runit is the best option. John January 24, 2017 2:20 PM, "Iznogoud" wrote: > John, the following was intended for you and it was yanked-pasted into the > wrong message sent ot Rick. Response below. > >> My question du jour: what daemon controlling system do you use? >> >> I've been using daemontools for years, but don't like the timestamps or >> the way >> directories are part of the UI (for command invocation). It is also no >> longer >> maintained, though one point of view is that it doesn't need to be >> maintained. >> >> Any preferences? Or systems to be avoided? I'm looking at runit - a >> daemontools >> replacement. But there's also systemd and a pile of others. >> >> John > > To the original question, I think there is nothing better than editing files > by hand when it comes to configuring things. This is one of the powerful things > about the unix (and Linux). Convenience, like using GUIs, comes at a price, and > you are relying on somebody else's idea of convenience, robustness and more > importantly security. Never take my advise, but it is to learn to do everything > properly and from the command-line. Keep unix unix and thank me later. > > There are many books on the subject. Get one and start reading and keep it as > a reference. If you want a quick start within the next few minutes, here is > your freebie: http://tldp.org/LDP/sag/sag.pdf The kernel has received updates, > and several more daemons and other system related components have been added > to Linux, and many more so on the more bleeding edge distributions. So, expect > that you will have to stay up-to-date and that it is a moving target. (I do > remember the day that "shadow" passwords were added to prevent hashed ones from > being visible to common users.) > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From carl.soderstrom at real-time.com Tue Jan 24 14:57:48 2017 From: carl.soderstrom at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 15:57:48 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> References: <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> Message-ID: <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> On 01/24 08:33 , John Gateley wrote: > I can start it via init, but that usually doesn't include monitoring > and restarting either. For this, try 'monit'. 'apt-get install monit' - it's fairly well documented. https://linux.die.net/man/1/monit -- Carl Soderstrom Systems Administrator Real-Time Enterprises www.real-time.com From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Jan 24 16:01:32 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 22:01:32 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> References: <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> (This message wil lbe of no help.) Ah, that is the "moving target" problem I was talking about. In the old days, the "inetd" spawned processes as per-service daemons once it got a trigger (connection) to a port. It worked well in the 90s, including on my... Amiga 500. That is essentially what the OP is looking for, and what a sad way to do it with the directory structure. Progress is not always... forward. From tclug at jfoo.org Tue Jan 24 16:17:00 2017 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 22:17:00 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> References: <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> Message-ID: January 24, 2017 4:01 PM, "Iznogoud" wrote: > (This message wil lbe of no help.) > > Ah, that is the "moving target" problem I was talking about. In the old days, > the "inetd" spawned processes as per-service daemons once it got a trigger > (connection) to a port. It worked well in the 90s, including on my... Amiga 500. > That is essentially what the OP is looking for, and what a sad way to do it > with the directory structure. > > Progress is not always... forward. You are correct: the message was not of help. inetd was(is?) a special purpose daemonizer, specifically to handle TCP and UDP applications. It handled the listener that spawned a child process for each incoming request. It is a daemonizer, but only for that specific case. The listener code has migrated to other apps these days. I am looking for generic daemonizers. The directory structure is not "a sad way". It is a very elegant configuration method. Instead of editing a configuration file with a text editor, and then sending a signal to the process (a la inetd), you place a "configuration" by soft-linking a config directory into the daemontools/runit service directory. This generates an event (or polling occurs) and the new service is automatically started. It is much easier to do automatically, especially for tools like ansible or chef. My beef is with the arcane requirements to remove a service in daemontools. I have to look up the sequence every time. Runit does not have this arcane requirement, just "rm" the symlink and the service goes away. (Again, note, no manual restarting of the daemon, nor complex editing of configuration files). John From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Jan 24 16:31:14 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 24 Jan 2017 22:31:14 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> > > My beef is with the arcane requirements to remove a service in daemontools. I have > to look up the sequence every time. Runit does not have this arcane requirement, > just "rm" the symlink and the service goes away. (Again, note, no manual restarting > of the daemon, nor complex editing of configuration files). > Right, I anderstand. But we will disagree on two things and I prefer to leave it at that: (a) using the filesystem, especially with a complex directory structure _and_ with non-intuitive operations like linking, unliking and rm-ing is far from elegant in my book, and (b) unix is all about configuration files, which are not complicated if one studies documents and manual pages. Ansible, jailing processes, automation and virtualization have requirements and some things can be made simpler with the (seamingly) complex (in my book) operations. But I am of the idea that this sort of "requirement" should not be feeding back to the structure of a really well functioning OS. I could be dead wrong about this and I am an Ansible iliterate at best. Maybe that is why I run Slackware. From tclug at jfoo.org Wed Jan 25 10:29:11 2017 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 16:29:11 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> References: <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> Message-ID: <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> January 24, 2017 4:31 PM, "Iznogoud" wrote: > Right, I anderstand. But we will disagree on two things and I prefer to leave > it at that: (a) using the filesystem, especially with a complex directory > structure _and_ with non-intuitive operations like linking, unliking and > rm-ing is far from elegant in my book, and (b) unix is all about configuration > files, which are not complicated if one studies documents and manual pages. I have no idea how you decided we disagree about configuration files. My question was about daemonizing applications, not about configuring them. Your configuration files are a red herring. Please read my original question. > Ansible, jailing processes, automation and virtualization have requirements > and some things can be made simpler with the (seamingly) complex (in my book) > operations. But I am of the idea that this sort of "requirement" should not > be feeding back to the structure of a really well functioning OS. I could be > dead wrong about this and I am an Ansible iliterate at best. Maybe that is > why I run Slackware. Ansible has nothing to do with Slackware, so your comment makes no sense. You seem to be saying "linux is a really well functioning OS, so we shouldn't make any changes to it." That is an interesting attitude. To recap: I asked about daemonizing applications, and got one useful response ("monit", which is more about monitoring daemons than daemonizing them, though it does have rudimentary capabilities for them), and a bunch of responses from you which were off topic and did not answer my question. I'm still researching this, and looking for opinions. At the moment "runit" is still in the lead, though if the debian package replaces init out of the box, I will probably choose something different. John From sethmiller.sm at gmail.com Wed Jan 25 10:41:05 2017 From: sethmiller.sm at gmail.com (Seth Miller) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 10:41:05 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> References: <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> Message-ID: Maybe I'm not understanding the question but isn't this exactly what the init processes (SysVinit, Upstart, Systemd) do? On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 10:29 AM, John Gateley wrote: > January 24, 2017 4:31 PM, "Iznogoud" wrote: > > Right, I anderstand. But we will disagree on two things and I prefer to > leave > > it at that: (a) using the filesystem, especially with a complex directory > > structure _and_ with non-intuitive operations like linking, unliking and > > rm-ing is far from elegant in my book, and (b) unix is all about > configuration > > files, which are not complicated if one studies documents and manual > pages. > > I have no idea how you decided we disagree about configuration files. My > question was about daemonizing applications, not about configuring them. > Your configuration files are a red herring. Please read my original > question. > > > Ansible, jailing processes, automation and virtualization have > requirements > > and some things can be made simpler with the (seamingly) complex (in my > book) > > operations. But I am of the idea that this sort of "requirement" should > not > > be feeding back to the structure of a really well functioning OS. I > could be > > dead wrong about this and I am an Ansible iliterate at best. Maybe that > is > > why I run Slackware. > > Ansible has nothing to do with Slackware, so your comment makes no sense. > > You seem to be saying "linux is a really well functioning OS, so we > shouldn't > make any changes to it." That is an interesting attitude. > > To recap: I asked about daemonizing applications, and got one useful > response > ("monit", which is more about monitoring daemons than daemonizing them, > though > it does have rudimentary capabilities for them), and a bunch of responses > from > you which were off topic and did not answer my question. > > I'm still researching this, and looking for opinions. At the moment > "runit" is > still in the lead, though if the debian package replaces init out of the > box, > I will probably choose something different. > > John > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug at jfoo.org Wed Jan 25 11:00:42 2017 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 17:00:42 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: References: <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> Message-ID: January 25, 2017 10:41 AM, "Seth Miller" wrote: Maybe I'm not understanding the question but isn't this exactly what the init processes (SysVinit, Upstart, Systemd) do? Sort of. Here's a couple of links on why these might not be the best. The second is quite old, but still good info. http://smarden.org/runit/benefits.html (http://smarden.org/runit/benefits.html) https://cr.yp.to/daemontools/faq/create.html#why (https://cr.yp.to/daemontools/faq/create.html#why) And philosophically I'm opposed to using init to start userland processes, though that's just my opinion. John -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Wed Jan 25 13:02:56 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 19:02:56 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> References: <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> Message-ID: <20170125190256.GA21659@nobelware.com> > > I have no idea how you decided we disagree about configuration files. My > question was about daemonizing applications, not about configuring them. > Your configuration files are a red herring. Please read my original question. > Maybe I misunderstood you when you said there is something more convenient than (re)editing a configuration file and sending a (HUP) signal afterwards. I think this is a fine way to do things. I still think I would not want too many directories for controlling and configuring processes. I think that is where we disagree. > > Ansible has nothing to do with Slackware, so your comment makes no sense. > I knew this would create confusion. What I meant about mentioning Slackware was that I prefer something more bare-bones and as closely adhering to the unix standard. Ansible, and my not using it, was to clearify that I do not work on the systems backend in hte way you do. You mentioned how backend configuration is done in Ansible applications and mine was a "I do not really know" reponse. > You seem to be saying "linux is a really well functioning OS, so we shouldn't > make any changes to it." That is an interesting attitude. > Not true. What I said is that I prefer to not break old things that work well. I did not advocate a non-progress attitude. If something is truly better and demands that the foundation is changed, I am fearless to go for it. Some things that were changed in Linux distros I did not like, but the kernel has always been making forward progress in my opinion. I am sorry I was not able to help you. Carry on; this is a pointless discussion that is starting to go the wrong direction. From tclug at jfoo.org Wed Jan 25 18:59:21 2017 From: tclug at jfoo.org (John Gateley) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 18:59:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20170125190256.GA21659@nobelware.com> References: <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170125190256.GA21659@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20e1145b-ee85-cc2a-7d53-c4607012d876@jfoo.org> Hi y'all, I did not say the things Iznogoud attributed to me about config files, HUP, or using directories as config files. He is confusing me with Rick Engebretson. Thanks to Carl Soderstrom for suggesting "monit". It looks very interesting, however it is more focused on monitoring and the process control is rudimentary. I think using monit with a daemonizer is a good way to go. I saw no requests for summaries etc., so I am assuming nobody wants to know what I choose. If you are interested, drop me a private e-mail off list and I'll tell you after I figure it out. Thanks John On 1/25/17 1:02 PM, Iznogoud wrote: >> I have no idea how you decided we disagree about configuration files. My >> question was about daemonizing applications, not about configuring them. >> Your configuration files are a red herring. Please read my original question. >> > Maybe I misunderstood you when you said there is something more convenient > than (re)editing a configuration file and sending a (HUP) signal afterwards. > I think this is a fine way to do things. > > I still think I would not want too many directories for controlling and > configuring processes. I think that is where we disagree. > >> Ansible has nothing to do with Slackware, so your comment makes no sense. >> > I knew this would create confusion. What I meant about mentioning Slackware > was that I prefer something more bare-bones and as closely adhering to the unix > standard. Ansible, and my not using it, was to clearify that I do not work on > the systems backend in hte way you do. You mentioned how backend configuration > is done in Ansible applications and mine was a "I do not really know" reponse. > > >> You seem to be saying "linux is a really well functioning OS, so we shouldn't >> make any changes to it." That is an interesting attitude. >> > Not true. What I said is that I prefer to not break old things that work well. > I did not advocate a non-progress attitude. If something is truly better and > demands that the foundation is changed, I am fearless to go for it. Some things > that were changed in Linux distros I did not like, but the kernel has always > been making forward progress in my opinion. > > > I am sorry I was not able to help you. Carry on; this is a pointless discussion > that is starting to go the wrong direction. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From eng at pinenet.com Wed Jan 25 20:04:04 2017 From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson) Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2017 20:04:04 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20e1145b-ee85-cc2a-7d53-c4607012d876@jfoo.org> References: <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170125190256.GA21659@nobelware.com> <20e1145b-ee85-cc2a-7d53-c4607012d876@jfoo.org> Message-ID: <58895914.5020904@pinenet.com> Please don't involve me in this. There are some important daemons, and other problem daemons. All I referred to was turning well known pre-configured daemons off using standard tools of my preferred distro. If you don't know what daemons you are brewing and what they are doing you are doing very different things on Linux than I am; trying to get microsecond accuracy. But learning linux is for everybody, and I'm glad you had a good discussion with our group. John Gateley wrote: > Hi y'all, > > I did not say the things Iznogoud attributed to me about config files, > HUP, > or using directories as config files. He is confusing me with Rick > Engebretson. > > Thanks to Carl Soderstrom for suggesting "monit". It looks very > interesting, > however it is more focused on monitoring and the process control is > rudimentary. I think using monit with a daemonizer is a good way to go. > > I saw no requests for summaries etc., so I am assuming nobody wants to > know what I choose. If you are interested, drop me a private e-mail > off list > and I'll tell you after I figure it out. > > Thanks > > John > > > On 1/25/17 1:02 PM, Iznogoud wrote: >>> I have no idea how you decided we disagree about configuration >>> files. My >>> question was about daemonizing applications, not about configuring >>> them. >>> Your configuration files are a red herring. Please read my original >>> question. >>> >> Maybe I misunderstood you when you said there is something more >> convenient >> than (re)editing a configuration file and sending a (HUP) signal >> afterwards. >> I think this is a fine way to do things. >> >> I still think I would not want too many directories for controlling and >> configuring processes. I think that is where we disagree. >>> Ansible has nothing to do with Slackware, so your comment makes no >>> sense. >>> >> I knew this would create confusion. What I meant about mentioning >> Slackware >> was that I prefer something more bare-bones and as closely adhering >> to the unix >> standard. Ansible, and my not using it, was to clearify that I do not >> work on >> the systems backend in hte way you do. You mentioned how backend >> configuration >> is done in Ansible applications and mine was a "I do not really know" >> reponse. >> >>> You seem to be saying "linux is a really well functioning OS, so we >>> shouldn't >>> make any changes to it." That is an interesting attitude. >>> >> Not true. What I said is that I prefer to not break old things that >> work well. >> I did not advocate a non-progress attitude. If something is truly >> better and >> demands that the foundation is changed, I am fearless to go for it. >> Some things >> that were changed in Linux distros I did not like, but the kernel has >> always >> been making forward progress in my opinion. >> >> >> I am sorry I was not able to help you. Carry on; this is a pointless >> discussion >> that is starting to go the wrong direction. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Wed Jan 25 22:45:34 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2017 04:45:34 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Daemontools or runit or something else? In-Reply-To: <20e1145b-ee85-cc2a-7d53-c4607012d876@jfoo.org> References: <20170124223114.GA8947@nobelware.com> <20170124220132.GA7933@nobelware.com> <20170124202011.GA4156@nobelware.com> <2822a78e6c6f310ccc05ca147fe45751@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170124205748.GD923@real-time.com> <20e6b0df66e2a49bc2d40fb593ae10e5@rainloop.oustrencats.com> <20170125190256.GA21659@nobelware.com> <20e1145b-ee85-cc2a-7d53-c4607012d876@jfoo.org> Message-ID: <20170126044534.GA11052@nobelware.com> John, given that this got heated, I did some reading to try and see where you are coming from. I think the best part about runit (should you care to know my opinion) is that you can run user-level (per user) processes as services. You can combine this with containers and jailing processes and you can do some pretty crazy stuff. This last part is worth looking into for some things I have in mind for software-as-a-service. And monit can possibly do the auditing. I guess I gained something from this, which may have turned the thread into a waste of only your time! (Take it easy dude; I am joking.) From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 14:52:49 2017 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 14:52:49 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support Message-ID: Recently I had some trouble with getting TrueOS to hibernate on my laptop. So I decided to try Linux Mint. Unfortunately, it has support for older C++ compilers than TrueOS. I read that Fedora 26 will have support for compilers that are already available on TrueOS, but the alpha for that is still 6 weeks away. Are there any other distros to look at for this? Thanks in advance. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - Learn from the Psalms. http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 15:17:30 2017 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (B-o-B De Mars) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 15:17:30 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9a4fef78-ec78-7122-5cc4-4008637ce0a5@gmail.com> Slackware On 1/27/2017 2:52 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > > Recently I had some trouble with getting TrueOS to hibernate > on my laptop. So I decided to try Linux Mint. Unfortunately, > it has support for older C++ compilers than TrueOS. I read that > Fedora 26 will have support for compilers that are already > available on TrueOS, but the alpha for that is still 6 weeks away. > Are there any other distros to look at for this? Thanks in advance. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - Learn from the Psalms. > http://webEbenezer.net > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chapinjeff at gmail.com Fri Jan 27 15:28:25 2017 From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin) Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2017 15:28:25 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support In-Reply-To: <9a4fef78-ec78-7122-5cc4-4008637ce0a5@gmail.com> References: <9a4fef78-ec78-7122-5cc4-4008637ce0a5@gmail.com> Message-ID: Compile your own and they all do. On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 3:17 PM, B-o-B De Mars wrote: > Slackware > > On 1/27/2017 2:52 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > > > Recently I had some trouble with getting TrueOS to hibernate > on my laptop. So I decided to try Linux Mint. Unfortunately, > it has support for older C++ compilers than TrueOS. I read that > Fedora 26 will have support for compilers that are already > available on TrueOS, but the alpha for that is still 6 weeks away. > Are there any other distros to look at for this? Thanks in advance. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - Learn from the Psalms. > http://webEbenezer.net > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesotatclug-list at mn-linux.orghttp://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > -- Jeff Chapin President, CedarLug, retired President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it" President, UNI Scuba Club Senator, NISG, retired -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 13:08:35 2017 From: jeremy.mountainjohnson at gmail.com (Jeremy MountainJohnson) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 13:08:35 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Archlinux or Tumbleweed. -- Jeremy MountainJohnson Jeremy.MountainJohnson at gmail.com On Fri, Jan 27, 2017 at 2:52 PM, Brian Wood wrote: > > Recently I had some trouble with getting TrueOS to hibernate > on my laptop. So I decided to try Linux Mint. Unfortunately, > it has support for older C++ compilers than TrueOS. I read that > Fedora 26 will have support for compilers that are already > available on TrueOS, but the alpha for that is still 6 weeks away. > Are there any other distros to look at for this? Thanks in advance. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - Learn from the Psalms. > http://webEbenezer.net > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Jan 28 20:39:16 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 02:39:16 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support In-Reply-To: References: <9a4fef78-ec78-7122-5cc4-4008637ce0a5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20170129023916.GA3649@nobelware.com> > > Compile your own and they all do. > This is what came to mind. That is what distro-makers do when they put one together. It makes no sense to go away from a distribution that works well for you overall just for having a specific development tool when there are other ways to deal with it. I will try to offer some more specifics for Brian. The real issue with using your existing distro, or other distro, with such (older) tools pre-loaded is that you can have both library and execution environment conflicts (filenames). What we do at work is to use unix environment modules to handle multiple compiler installations, etc. First, download and build the modules framework from here: http://modules.sourceforge.net Then, get the sources for the particular (open source) compiler you want, or binaries for a compiler that self-installs (Intel's for example). You can make a module for the specific compiler (or build environment) that does not have any conflicts with your existing one. For the Intel compiler it should just be a matter of version used if you want multiple ones installed, and that is because there should be no conflict at execution of the compilation commands. For something like GCC you will have conflicts. That is where you build your compiler from source and use either prefixes or postfixes to separate the binaries from an existing installation (like 'gcc' for example turned into 'my_gcc' using a prefix). I hope this helps. Can you tell us what compiler you are interested in using and what C++ standard specification? (I am curious) From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sat Jan 28 21:47:56 2017 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sat, 28 Jan 2017 21:47:56 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Two laptops for sale Message-ID: Vizio CT14 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vizio-Thin-Light-CT14-14-128GB-Intel-Core-4GB-/112280239852?hash=item1a246c7eec:g:z0oAAOSwnHZYh6yz I bought this used in 2013 and didn't like the keyboard. On the plus side, it hasn't been used much due to that. Has Linux on it. $80 obo ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Acer Travelmate P645 M 3862 https://www.amazon.com/Acer-TravelMate-NX-V8RAA-012-14-Inch-Laptop/dp/B00UL435AM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1485656711&sr=8-1&keywords =Acer+Travelmate+P645 I bought this new in Sept. of 2015. Has TrueOS/FreeBSD on it. Comes with the original box and manuals. $410 obo Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - "I did all that I could to undo me, but You loved me enough to pursue me." Lyrics by TobyMac http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sun Jan 29 13:24:21 2017 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 13:24:21 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support Message-ID: Iznogoud writes: > >> >> Compile your own and they all do. >> > > This is what came to mind. That is what distro-makers do when they put one > together. It makes no sense to go away from a distribution that works well > for you overall just for having a specific development tool when there are > other ways to deal with it. I bit this bullet again now and built a very recent version of gcc7. It took over 8 hours on my Vizio laptop. If there's a way to get it to just build the C and C++ compilers, I'm not aware of it. It builds Fortran and some other compilers that I'm not interested in. Probably I should have used make -j2 or 3 when I ran make. It's been a few years since I've built anything that big. I've never done anything with Intel's C++ compiler. Mostly I use Clang, GCC, and a little bit of Microsoft. I used Arch for a year or more in the past, but wasn't able to stay on top of it. It reminds me of C++ in terms of giving you a lot of control. Thanks for the Slackware and Tumbleweed recommendations. I'll keep them in mind for the future. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Jan 29 17:27:19 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2017 23:27:19 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux performance (monitoring) tools Message-ID: <20170129232719.GA1547@nobelware.com> A friend pointed this out: http://www.brendangregg.com/linuxperf.html Observability, methodologies, benchmarking, profiling, etc, for performance tuning, which is a subject few may find useful, but I thought I would share it. There are some youtube videos of his talks. (The guy works at Netflix, so he must have some aim to covering performance issues on massive content-distribution, etc, which some here may find useful.) From marc at e-skinner.net Mon Jan 30 07:48:42 2017 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 07:48:42 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux performance (monitoring) tools In-Reply-To: <20170129232719.GA1547@nobelware.com> References: <20170129232719.GA1547@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <69da35a1-1b4a-e79f-e460-a67232adaa0b@e-skinner.net> I did a high level presentation of lesser known or hidden perf tooling in RHEL7. http://people.redhat.com/mskinner/rhug/q2.2016/hidden-tools.pdf and one of our customers presented this on monitoring/trending: http://people.redhat.com/mskinner/rhug/q2.2016/perf_monitoring_at_general_mills.pdf I also did this a few years ago on perf tuning for RHEL 6: http://people.redhat.com/mskinner/rhug/q4.2013/rhel-performance.pdf On 01/29/2017 05:27 PM, Iznogoud wrote: > A friend pointed this out: > > http://www.brendangregg.com/linuxperf.html > > Observability, methodologies, benchmarking, profiling, etc, for performance > tuning, which is a subject few may find useful, but I thought I would share it. > There are some youtube videos of his talks. > > (The guy works at Netflix, so he must have some aim to covering performance > issues on massive content-distribution, etc, which some here may find useful.) > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From iznogoud at nobelware.com Mon Jan 30 07:50:21 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 13:50:21 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170130135021.GA32579@nobelware.com> > > I bit this bullet again now and built a very recent version of gcc7. > It took over 8 hours on my Vizio laptop. If there's a way to get it to > just build the C and C++ compilers, I'm not aware of it. > I figured I'd give it a shot. I took the gcc-6.3.0 tarball, as gcc-7.x is still unreleased. I am doing this on Slackware64 14.1 on kernel 3.10.17. To build just what you want, use this first switch at configure: ./configure --enable-languages=c,c++ \ --prefix=/opt/gcc-6.3.0 --program-prefix=izno_ \ --with-system-zlib --disable-multilib The prefix is where I dump binaries and libraries that will become modules (as I described earlier). The program-prefix is so that I avoid conflicts with the existing gcc, g++ and so on when the gcc=6.3.0 module is loaded. I do not use the Zlib that came with the distribution because it fails to build (this took me a while to isolate). I disable building the 32-bit stuff with the last switch. It configured. I put 3 threads to the compiling task ('make -j 3') as I am doing other stuff on this system right now and that is what I could spare. Will report back on results. > > I've never done anything with Intel's C++ compiler. Mostly I use Clang, > GCC, and a little bit of Microsoft. > As a side note, Intel has done an incredible amount of work to bring good compilers and other tools to life, and some of them for free. (I think, and I could be wrong, that this is in support of computer installationas at government HPC facilities where, to my knowledge, almost everything is on Intel hardware.) The C, C++ and Fortran compilers are very good, on both Linux and Microsoft Visual Studio. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Mon Jan 30 20:26:01 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 02:26:01 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support In-Reply-To: <20170130135021.GA32579@nobelware.com> References: <20170130135021.GA32579@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20170131022601.GA26147@nobelware.com> Here is the update. It took 1.5 hours to compile on my Opteron (just C and C++). The tests did not pass successfully, but that does not matter. I did a 'make install' and put in all in the location I indicated in my original post (see below). I made a module for the installation, and it looks like this: ------ #%Module proc ModulesHelp { } { puts stderr " Sets up environment to use the GCC 6.3.0 build See man pages for more information. " } conflict gcc #prereq ... append-path LIBDIR /opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0 append-path PATH /opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0/bin append-path LD_LIBRARY_PATH /opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0/lib64 prepend-path MANPATH /opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0/share/man/ append-path LD_RUN_PATH /opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0/lib64 ------ I tested it and it worked: iznogoud at bigpapa:~> module load gcc6.3.0 iznogoud at bigpapa:~> izno_gcc hrt.c -lrt iznogoud at bigpapa:~> ### Above is the hrt.c test I made for Rick earlier iznogoud at bigpapa:~> ./a.out Usage: ./a.out iznogoud at bigpapa:~> izno_gcc -v Using built-in specs. COLLECT_GCC=izno_gcc COLLECT_LTO_WRAPPER=/opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0/libexec/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/6.3.0/lto-wrapper Target: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Configured with: ./configure --prefix=/opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0 --program-prefix=izno_ --disable-multilib --enable-stage1-checking=all --enable-languages=c,c++ --disable-bootstartp --with-system-zlib Thread model: posix gcc version 6.3.0 (GCC) iznogoud at bigpapa:~> It works. But some more points need to be made. The executable above was compiled with GCC 6.3.0, and I know this because I used the "-v" switch while compiling/linking with expected results (I will not paste them here). But this is what I noticed, which is not a problem (look below): iznogoud at bigpapa:~> ldd a.out linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffff4bff000) librt.so.1 => /lib64/librt.so.1 (0x00007f14bbf67000) libc.so.6 => /lib64/libc.so.6 (0x00007f14bbb9d000) libpthread.so.0 => /lib64/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f14bb980000) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f14bc191000) iznogoud at bigpapa:~> Also, you were interested in C++. It was built successfully: iznogoud at bigpapa:~/test> make izno_g++ -D_GNU_SOURCE -g -fPIC -O0 -c STLfile.cpp izno_g++ -D_GNU_SOURCE -g -fPIC -O0 -c -I . main.cpp -lm izno_g++ -D_GNU_SOURCE STLfile.o main.o octree.o iznogoud at bigpapa:~/test> iznogoud at bigpapa:~/test> ldd a.out linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007fffa9dff000) libstdc++.so.6 => /opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0/lib64/libstdc++.so.6 (0x00007f849a859000) libm.so.6 => /lib64/libm.so.6 (0x00007f849a535000) libgcc_s.so.1 => /opt/IN/gcc-6.3.0/lib64/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007f849a31f000) libc.so.6 => /lib64/libc.so.6 (0x00007f8499f56000) /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f849abdb000) iznogoud at bigpapa:~/test> And this code worked as expected as well. I think you have all you need to build the pieces of GCC that you want and a way to drop it into an existing distro without conflicts. You are welcome. On Mon, Jan 30, 2017 at 01:50:21PM +0000, Iznogoud wrote: > > > > I bit this bullet again now and built a very recent version of gcc7. > > It took over 8 hours on my Vizio laptop. If there's a way to get it to > > just build the C and C++ compilers, I'm not aware of it. > > > > I figured I'd give it a shot. I took the gcc-6.3.0 tarball, as gcc-7.x is > still unreleased. I am doing this on Slackware64 14.1 on kernel 3.10.17. > > To build just what you want, use this first switch at configure: > > ./configure --enable-languages=c,c++ \ > --prefix=/opt/gcc-6.3.0 --program-prefix=izno_ \ > --with-system-zlib --disable-multilib > > The prefix is where I dump binaries and libraries that will become modules > (as I described earlier). The program-prefix is so that I avoid conflicts > with the existing gcc, g++ and so on when the gcc=6.3.0 module is loaded. > I do not use the Zlib that came with the distribution because it fails to > build (this took me a while to isolate). I disable building the 32-bit > stuff with the last switch. > > It configured. I put 3 threads to the compiling task ('make -j 3') as I am > doing other stuff on this system right now and that is what I could spare. > Will report back on results. > > > > > > I've never done anything with Intel's C++ compiler. Mostly I use Clang, > > GCC, and a little bit of Microsoft. > > > > As a side note, Intel has done an incredible amount of work to bring good > compilers and other tools to life, and some of them for free. (I think, and > I could be wrong, that this is in support of computer installationas at > government HPC facilities where, to my knowledge, almost everything is on > Intel hardware.) The C, C++ and Fortran compilers are very good, on both > Linux and Microsoft Visual Studio. > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From iznogoud at nobelware.com Mon Jan 30 20:35:13 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 02:35:13 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Linux performance (monitoring) tools In-Reply-To: <69da35a1-1b4a-e79f-e460-a67232adaa0b@e-skinner.net> References: <20170129232719.GA1547@nobelware.com> <69da35a1-1b4a-e79f-e460-a67232adaa0b@e-skinner.net> Message-ID: <20170131023513.GB26147@nobelware.com> > > I did a high level presentation of lesser known or hidden perf tooling > in RHEL7. > Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Both of your presentations have a lot to think about (and try). I am most interested in NUMA (numad), tuna and Infiniband monitoring and performance (as well as error trapping). We have issues with HPC codes not scaling as well as they should, and it is a rabbit-hole. Also, Infiniband is still something we struggle with from a performance and sometimes robustness perspective. From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Mon Jan 30 21:13:34 2017 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Mon, 30 Jan 2017 21:13:34 -0600 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support Message-ID: Iznogoud writes: > I figured I'd give it a shot. I took the gcc-6.3.0 tarball, as gcc-7.x is > still unreleased. I am doing this on Slackware64 14.1 on kernel 3.10.17. > > To build just what you want, use this first switch at configure: > > ./configure --enable-languages=c,c++ \ > --prefix=/opt/gcc-6.3.0 --program-prefix=izno_ \ > --with-system-zlib --disable-multilib > > The prefix is where I dump binaries and libraries that will become modules > (as I described earlier). The program-prefix is so that I avoid conflicts > with the existing gcc, g++ and so on when the gcc=6.3.0 module is loaded. > I do not use the Zlib that came with the distribution because it fails to > build (this took me a while to isolate). I disable building the 32-bit > stuff with the last switch. Thanks that will help a lot. I didn't run into that Zlib problem but good to know about it. My first attempt at building died after 30 minutes or so due to flex not being available. I had to do a "make distclean" and start over after getting flex. > > It configured. I put 3 threads to the compiling task ('make -j 3') as I am > doing other stuff on this system right now and that is what I could spare. > Will report back on results. > > > As a side note, Intel has done an incredible amount of work to bring good > compilers and other tools to life, and some of them for free. (I think, and > I could be wrong, that this is in support of computer installationas at > government HPC facilities where, to my knowledge, almost everything is on > Intel hardware.) The C, C++ and Fortran compilers are very good, on both > Linux and Microsoft Visual Studio. It's possible that using the Intel compiler would help for my code generator, but would have to check on that. This thread says they support FreeBSD https://software.intel.com/en-us/forums/intel-c-compiler/topic/284695 but their marketing emphasizes Linux, Windows and OS X. Also I'm using two C++ 2017 features. One of them is string_view which is a library only feature I think. It wouldn't be very hard for them to add support for that. The other one though is a change to the language and I'd be surprised if they have that. This page https://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/intel-c-compiler-170-for-linux-release-notes-for-intel-parallel-studio-xe-2017#cpp14 mentions support for C++ 2014 features, but I didn't see anything about C++ 2017 features. Clang doesn't have support for that language feature of C++ 2017 that I'm using either in Clang 4.0. GCC 7 is the only compiler I'm aware of that has it. I'm only using it in one place though so it wouldn't be hard to forego that. But I'm using string_view a lot already so have to have that. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - "For G-d so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes on Him may not perish, but have life eternal." John 3:16 http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Tue Jan 31 12:04:37 2017 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2017 18:04:37 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Distros with up-to-date C++ support In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20170131180437.GC27671@nobelware.com> > > GCC 7 is the only compiler > I'm aware of that has it. I'm only using it in one place though > so it wouldn't be hard to forego that. But I'm using string_view a > lot already so have to have that. > I think that some dirty work will get you to where you want to be with a lesser version of GCC. You can either try to use the experimental code for string_view, and I am thinking of something along the lines of what is discussed here: https://skebanga.github.io/string-view/ and in particular the test-build this guy makes. And what I think may even be better is to take the stdc++ library from GCC 7 and dumping it on top of 6.3.0, build it as I said and try it. The third alternative would be to make a separate stc++ library of your own and throwing that into a module. Use the GCC 7 code for stdc++ and make a separate build of it using GCC 6.3.0. Install it somewhere else. When you build _your_code_ link against it, either statically or with some careful use of -rpath or LD_LIBRARY_PATH. I am sure with some trials you will get it right. Circa 2000 I used to juggle libraries that came with the PathScale compiler to work with PGI and GCC. It was a similar stunt, but with ready-built libraries. The linking step is the key. Good luck.