From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 13:55:36 2018
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:55:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
Message-ID: <CABWFOjt00G89uwnVDQiqzXcWTWJxwr5g=bCFNbMoR8miw7qOYg@mail.gmail.com>

Previously, I came across GhostBSD after having some
problems with TrueOS.  At the time, I figured GhostBSD was
from some totally different group, but now I've learned that
it seems to be coming from about the same people as
TrueOS.  There's a new version of GhostBSD that they
made available just a few days ago --
http://ghostbsd.org/news

and it's based on TrueOS rather than directly on FreeBSD.
I haven't tried the new version yet, but hope to in the next
few days.  One thing I'll be wanting to find out is if it has
any firewall support.  TrueOS did in the past, so this rebasing
may make GhostBSD even better imo.



Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - I'd like to see the U of M invite Ben
Shapiro back and give him a bigger venue this time. I think
that would be a goodwill gesture and he would likely drop
his lawsuit against the U of M.  (I was one of those who
wasn't able to attend his talk in Feb. because all of the seats
were gobbled up so quickly.)   dailywire.com
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From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Tue Nov  6 14:17:43 2018
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 14:17:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjt00G89uwnVDQiqzXcWTWJxwr5g=bCFNbMoR8miw7qOYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjt00G89uwnVDQiqzXcWTWJxwr5g=bCFNbMoR8miw7qOYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+NAFPeDu-bTzL5C5CMT+7eTQxzQFgRTSkYGPivGgeQi_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I was not aware that Ben Shapiro was involved in the Free Software
movement. I would have thought that he would have been against CopyLeft.
Was his talk at the U of M related to working on some flavor of BSD?

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 1:52 PM Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Previously, I came across GhostBSD after having some
> problems with TrueOS.  At the time, I figured GhostBSD was
> from some totally different group, but now I've learned that
> it seems to be coming from about the same people as
> TrueOS.  There's a new version of GhostBSD that they
> made available just a few days ago --
> http://ghostbsd.org/news
>
> and it's based on TrueOS rather than directly on FreeBSD.
> I haven't tried the new version yet, but hope to in the next
> few days.  One thing I'll be wanting to find out is if it has
> any firewall support.  TrueOS did in the past, so this rebasing
> may make GhostBSD even better imo.
>
>
>
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - I'd like to see the U of M invite Ben
> Shapiro back and give him a bigger venue this time. I think
> that would be a goodwill gesture and he would likely drop
> his lawsuit against the U of M.  (I was one of those who
> wasn't able to attend his talk in Feb. because all of the seats
> were gobbled up so quickly.)   dailywire.com
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
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From eng at pinenet.com  Tue Nov  6 16:55:43 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 16:55:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjt00G89uwnVDQiqzXcWTWJxwr5g=bCFNbMoR8miw7qOYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjt00G89uwnVDQiqzXcWTWJxwr5g=bCFNbMoR8miw7qOYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <949d2712-f3d6-d7db-f18e-6fc42056f268@pinenet.com>

I don't know anything about GhostBSD, TrueOS, or Ben Shapiro. But I know 
you have been advocating some strange use of C++, and since I recently 
started learning C++ I thought it worth butting in.

I use various versions of openSuse. And I started digging into their 
various Qt GUI programming tools, which is C++. I tried the FreePascal 
Lazarus GUI, but it never seems to work.

I've had Tom Swan's old book, "Gnu C++ for Linux," for many years. Also 
Herb Schildt's "Complete Reference for C++," and other C++ books and 
even a QT book or two. But Tom Swan also authored the "Mastering 
TurboPascal" book series that remains my best reference for FreePascal 
on Linux. Tom Swan is tedious, but with patience C++ now makes sense, 
and it is clearly a language intended to bring C into greater usefulness.

So I look forward to reading some great software books this winter, and 
will try ignore all the liver spots on my old used hands. I suggest 
ignoring the U's devout commie leanings, too. As a Biophysical Chemist I 
learned many years ago they didn't do much science there. With all the 
commie screaming about climate change, good luck finding any solutions 
there. We have a world of science leaving us in the dust, and an army of 
homeless hungry refugees headed our way. Arguing with or about hateful 
commies is a certain waste of time.

Even though I'm pre-newbie C++, I would like to get a better grasp of 
this language.

Brian Wood wrote:
>
> Previously, I came across GhostBSD after having some
> problems with TrueOS.  At the time, I figured GhostBSD was
> from some totally different group, but now I've learned that
> it seems to be coming from about the same people as
> TrueOS.  There's a new version of GhostBSD that they
> made available just a few days ago --
> http://ghostbsd.org/news
>
> and it's based on TrueOS rather than directly on FreeBSD.
> I haven't tried the new version yet, but hope to in the next
> few days.  One thing I'll be wanting to find out is if it has
> any firewall support.  TrueOS did in the past, so this rebasing
> may make GhostBSD even better imo.
>
>
>
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - I'd like to see the U of M invite Ben
> Shapiro back and give him a bigger venue this time. I think
> that would be a goodwill gesture and he would likely drop
> his lawsuit against the U of M.  (I was one of those who
> wasn't able to attend his talk in Feb. because all of the seats
> were gobbled up so quickly.)   dailywire.com <http://dailywire.com>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 14:08:29 2018
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 14:08:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
Message-ID: <CABWFOju_oCwW00CDmV3tDYqDthyiDs5D-Pcm7D9TnUwe99q+xQ@mail.gmail.com>

Rick Engebretson writes:

> I don't know anything about GhostBSD, TrueOS, or Ben Shapiro.
> But I know you have been advocating some strange use of C++,
> and since I recently started learning C++ I thought it worth butting in.
>
> I use various versions of openSuse. And I started digging into
> their various Qt GUI programming tools, which is C++. I tried
> the FreePascal Lazarus GUI, but it never seems to work.

Things seemed a little easier to understand for me with
regard to GhostBSD and TrueOS, before I found out that
the same people are making them.  Anyway though as
I understand it, GhostBSD is now based on TrueOS and
TrueOSis based on FreeBSD.

I'm glad to hear of your interest in C++.  It's not the
easiest language to learn.  You can send me questions
privately if you like.  I'll do my best to answer them.

I tried openSUSE a year or so ago and liked it.   Now
I've been using Manjaro on one machine and like it more
than openSUSE.  I was really surprised to see Manjaro on
the top of Distrowatch's list, beating out Mint, etc.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again.
http://webEbenezer.net
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From 42dch42 at gmail.com  Wed Nov  7 15:17:35 2018
From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 15:17:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>


> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2018 13:55:36 -0600
> From: Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com>
> To: tclug-list <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
> Message-ID:
> 	<CABWFOjt00G89uwnVDQiqzXcWTWJxwr5g=bCFNbMoR8miw7qOYg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Previously, I came across GhostBSD after having some
> problems with TrueOS.  At the time, I figured GhostBSD was
> from some totally different group, but now I've learned that
> it seems to be coming from about the same people as
> TrueOS.  There's a new version of GhostBSD that they
> made available just a few days ago --
> http://ghostbsd.org/news
> 
GhostBSD is a totally different group.
The devs behind GhostBSD just decided to change their base to Trueos.

Truos was originally spawned from PC-BSD and was an out of the box
preconfigured graphical solution based on FreeBSD-current.
Then iXsystems- the company behind TrueOS decided to make it a core
operating system for others to build on as well as being a server os.
https://www.trueos.org/blog/trueosdownstream/

Project Trident http://project-trident.org/ was spun off to become what
Trueos used to be. They should be releasing RC-3 soon.

> and it's based on TrueOS rather than directly on FreeBSD.
> I haven't tried the new version yet, but hope to in the next
> few days.  One thing I'll be wanting to find out is if it has
> any firewall support.  TrueOS did in the past, so this rebasing
> may make GhostBSD even better imo.

What do you mean by firewall support?
Just installed FreeBSD 11.2 and it has scripts for ipfw
in /etc/rc.d. Just needed to enable them in /etc/rc.conf, add some
rules to /etc/ipfw.rules, start the service and instant firewall.
Just looked and there are a few gui firewall managers in package repos
and probably a few more in the ports tree.

harv

> 
> 
> 
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - I'd like to see the U of M invite Ben
> Shapiro back and give him a bigger venue this time. I think
> that would be a goodwill gesture and he would likely drop
> his lawsuit against the U of M.  (I was one of those who
> wasn't able to attend his talk in Feb. because all of the seats
> were gobbled up so quickly.)   dailywire.com
> -------------- next part --------------

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Wed Nov  7 16:28:42 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 22:28:42 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>

Good info harv. I am so glad that Linux did not end killing BSD-variants.

Tonight I am meeting with my hardcore hackker group to do a BSD version
upgrade on our virtual private server, remotely. Should be fun, and I am
ready to learn a thing or two about modern BSD (I used to run NetBSD a long
time ago).

Rick, glad you are learning new things, programming languages, etc. That is
the way to go. And doing it from good books is even better.

But careful what you say about the UofM, and about which I have this tweet
for you: 19th century Chicago Tribune page talking about our gem:
https://twitter.com/ChemProfCramer/status/1060281750939729928


From eng at pinenet.com  Wed Nov  7 18:20:23 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:20:23 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOju_oCwW00CDmV3tDYqDthyiDs5D-Pcm7D9TnUwe99q+xQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOju_oCwW00CDmV3tDYqDthyiDs5D-Pcm7D9TnUwe99q+xQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e6b83184-dca2-6bd5-bdd4-c809c97335bc@pinenet.com>

Again, I don't care which flavor linux or why. But C++ does matter.

It seems C++ was developed to provide systematic software security. 
Everybody doing Input/Output or Strings or etc... can now use the same 
class library that is standardized and pre-screened for errors. There is 
really no alternative to an Object C, much like Object Pascal was developed.

The challenge will be to learn what many of the Class objects do. And 
there are a lot of them. Then all the GUI classes. It is one thing to 
stumble through this, and another thing to become efficient building 
software tools from proper choice of class objects.


Brian Wood wrote:
> Rick Engebretson writes:
>
>> I don't know anything about GhostBSD, TrueOS, or Ben Shapiro.
>> But I know you have been advocating some strange use of C++,
>> and since I recently started learning C++ I thought it worth butting in.
>>
>> I use various versions of openSuse. And I started digging into
>> their various Qt GUI programming tools, which is C++. I tried
>> the FreePascal Lazarus GUI, but it never seems to work.
>
> Things seemed a little easier to understand for me with
> regard to GhostBSD and TrueOS, before I found out that
> the same people are making them.  Anyway though as
> I understand it, GhostBSD is now based on TrueOS and
> TrueOSis based on FreeBSD.
>
> I'm glad to hear of your interest in C++.  It's not the
> easiest language to learn.  You can send me questions
> privately if you like.  I'll do my best to answer them.
>
> I tried openSUSE a year or so ago and liked it.   Now
> I've been using Manjaro on one machine and like it more
> than openSUSE.  I was really surprised to see Manjaro on
> the top of Distrowatch's list, beating out Mint, etc.
>
>
> Brian
> Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again.
> http://webEbenezer.net
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From eng at pinenet.com  Wed Nov  7 18:46:47 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2018 18:46:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <136c8bf0-9ea2-ee0e-f885-47da797f39eb@pinenet.com>

Not being a Twitter, I couldn't get the tweet. But I followed the link 
to his very related research and bookmarked it. Sincere thanks.

Given his background he would appreciate development of fiberglass 
roofing collecting solar photons from rooftops to a cable. I might share 
some Indian scientists' contacts with him.

And he would also agree direct solar energy storage in cellulose 
conversion to biofuel and biochar (black dirt CCS) is directly 
consistent with the recently stated UN climate solution. I call it "copy 
fire" quantum mechanics, and people get it.

I've been threatened by the U of M before. So go on record threatening 
the guy starting the internet and now food and energy with a $500billion 
trade deficit.

What else can a real scientist do, except relax and enjoy his PC?? Solar 
panels and windmills would be genocide.



Iznogoud wrote:
> Good info harv. I am so glad that Linux did not end killing BSD-variants.
>
> Tonight I am meeting with my hardcore hackker group to do a BSD version
> upgrade on our virtual private server, remotely. Should be fun, and I am
> ready to learn a thing or two about modern BSD (I used to run NetBSD a long
> time ago).
>
> Rick, glad you are learning new things, programming languages, etc. That is
> the way to go. And doing it from good books is even better.
>
> But careful what you say about the UofM, and about which I have this tweet
> for you: 19th century Chicago Tribune page talking about our gem:
> https://twitter.com/ChemProfCramer/status/1060281750939729928
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Thu Nov  8 13:33:24 2018
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:33:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>

What Rick?s trying to say is this account is protected and the tweet is not for public consumption.

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 4:28 PM, Iznogoud <iznogoud at nobelware.com> wrote:
> 
> But careful what you say about the UofM, and about which I have this tweet
> for you: 19th century Chicago Tribune page talking about our gem:
> https://twitter.com/ChemProfCramer/status/1060281750939729928 <https://twitter.com/ChemProfCramer/status/1060281750939729928>
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From 42dch42 at gmail.com  Thu Nov  8 14:18:27 2018
From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 14:18:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1541700002.20715.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1541700002.20715.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <5be49a18.1c69fb81.3a4c.b420@mx.google.com>


On Thu, 08 Nov 2018 12:00:02 -0600
Iznogoud opined:
> Good info harv. I am so glad that Linux did not end killing BSD-variants.
> 
So am I. Was an Archlinux user for years but cancer known  as systemd
appeared so needed to look elsewhere. ~2016 tried TrueOS and fell in
love with zfs filesystem. Unfortunately, TrueOS 1803- the preconfigured
version hasn't updated since march. RC-1 and RC-2 of Project Trident
didn't work for me so installed FreeBSD 11.2 and lumina DE- developed
by Trueos devs- and am a happy camper :-)

>Tonight I am meeting with my hardcore hackker group

Would like to meet up/talk with like minded individuals.
Construction worker by trade living in middle of nowhere.
Used to go to Norlug meetings but they seem to no longer exist.
<snipped>

From eng at pinenet.com  Thu Nov  8 21:34:28 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 21:34:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
 <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>

Thanks Ryan. But let's get beyond the U's problems and stick with some 
important science.

First, there is no way to air condition India and billions of others. 
Think about your air conditioner blowing your hot air on your neighbor, 
while your neighbor blows his hot air on you, all often powered by heat 
engine power plants or solar panels generating variable low efficiency 
power but soaking up solar heat. I won't get into betting lives on wind. 
A hot steel roof can definitely be improved on. Sucking rooftop solar 
photons into a fiber optic cable is a serious new energy opportunity, as 
Izzy's prof. friend will appreciate.

And the "copy fire" routine is so simple. Just burn a wood fire and you 
will find yourself adjusting light spectral properties and light 
intensity to "evaporate" cellulose.

And black dirt usually makes better garden soil.

The fact that the U. refuses to allow freedom of ideas is a catastrophe. 
I don't know how bankrupt our young generation can get. Somebody should 
at least be aware of this global game changer.

In the mean time we can all still love our souped up 50 year old Unix OS.

Ryan Coleman wrote:
> What Rick?s trying to say is this account is protected and the tweet is
> not for public consumption.
>
>> On Nov 7, 2018, at 4:28 PM, Iznogoud <iznogoud at nobelware.com
>> <mailto:iznogoud at nobelware.com>> wrote:
>>
>> But careful what you say about the UofM, and about which I have this tweet
>> for you: 19th century Chicago Tribune page talking about our gem:
>> https://twitter.com/ChemProfCramer/status/1060281750939729928
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Fri Nov  9 08:03:36 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:03:36 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
 <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
 <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <20181109140336.GC1787@nobelware.com>

Rick, I like that you are thinking that and you offer a theory, but I think the
data shows otherwise, especially when it comes to wind energy. I just heard
this on the radio two days ago; CEO of Xcel stated numbers on wind power in MN:
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/11/07/climate-cast-xcel-electric-cars
Surprising fact: $1-per-gallon equivalent in price; not sure if this is after
subsidies. Also, I spent 15 days in St John (stranded after Irma) and everyone
there had multiple 50V/300W solar panels (at $300 cost) that ran their fridges.

Channeling solar light across large distances sounds like a good idea to me.

But let's keep this focused on Linux, shall we...


From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Fri Nov  9 07:55:24 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 07:55:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <5be49a18.1c69fb81.3a4c.b420@mx.google.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541700002.20715.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be49a18.1c69fb81.3a4c.b420@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <20181109135524.GB1787@nobelware.com>

I second your sentiment on systemd, and you and I are not alone in this...

I am not an expert in ZFS, but we build it for Linux in order to run high
performance filesystems. The concept of how hardware is managed is just cool.


From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Nov  9 08:32:34 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:32:34 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <20181109140336.GC1787@nobelware.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
 <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
 <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>
 <20181109140336.GC1787@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <b9f35424-be75-40e0-3add-c535cee9adc9@pinenet.com>

A little shifty, Izzy. You owe me (us) a Twitter clarification and some 
(any) U of M energy expert before a brand new lecture without substance.

I do plenty of Linux as it pertains to industrial use. But I do plenty 
more biomass management given that twice the atmospheric CO2 is growing 
twice the biomass in Minnesota. And there is no market for it.

In fact, the referenced Indian MIT software expert who made his money in 
San Francisco is now putting his money into the technology shared here. 
Those California fires are a warning. Both energy and information 
technologies combine well, if you had a clue.

Standard shifty U of M effort to prevent progress. Please provide the 
previously referred to tweet.

Iznogoud wrote:
> Rick, I like that you are thinking that and you offer a theory, but I think the
> data shows otherwise, especially when it comes to wind energy. I just heard
> this on the radio two days ago; CEO of Xcel stated numbers on wind power in MN:
> https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/11/07/climate-cast-xcel-electric-cars
> Surprising fact: $1-per-gallon equivalent in price; not sure if this is after
> subsidies. Also, I spent 15 days in St John (stranded after Irma) and everyone
> there had multiple 50V/300W solar panels (at $300 cost) that ran their fridges.
>
> Channeling solar light across large distances sounds like a good idea to me.
>
> But let's keep this focused on Linux, shall we...
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 08:43:24 2018
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:43:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <b9f35424-be75-40e0-3add-c535cee9adc9@pinenet.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
 <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
 <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>
 <20181109140336.GC1787@nobelware.com>
 <b9f35424-be75-40e0-3add-c535cee9adc9@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+OB+ZiL_uJV68u5o_HK+eWW9nFd7zkQdv_5CZML2RdWkg@mail.gmail.com>

I'm not sure why we are going off about global climate change here,
attacking colleges, or what this has to do with Linux, and free software.
Could we stay on topic, and stop the snide political commentary?

Looking back, it appears I may have fed the fires, when I replied to the
original message -- I did not realize that Brian had included an off topic
attack on U of M as his 'signature', or that a full third of his email was
actually a trolling signature --  and I mistakenly commented on it. For
that, I am sorry, and would like to see us get back on topic.

Jeff

On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 8:32 AM Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:

> A little shifty, Izzy. You owe me (us) a Twitter clarification and some
> (any) U of M energy expert before a brand new lecture without substance.
>
> I do plenty of Linux as it pertains to industrial use. But I do plenty
> more biomass management given that twice the atmospheric CO2 is growing
> twice the biomass in Minnesota. And there is no market for it.
>
> In fact, the referenced Indian MIT software expert who made his money in
> San Francisco is now putting his money into the technology shared here.
> Those California fires are a warning. Both energy and information
> technologies combine well, if you had a clue.
>
> Standard shifty U of M effort to prevent progress. Please provide the
> previously referred to tweet.
>
> Iznogoud wrote:
> > Rick, I like that you are thinking that and you offer a theory, but I
> think the
> > data shows otherwise, especially when it comes to wind energy. I just
> heard
> > this on the radio two days ago; CEO of Xcel stated numbers on wind power
> in MN:
> > https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/11/07/climate-cast-xcel-electric-cars
> > Surprising fact: $1-per-gallon equivalent in price; not sure if this is
> after
> > subsidies. Also, I spent 15 days in St John (stranded after Irma) and
> everyone
> > there had multiple 50V/300W solar panels (at $300 cost) that ran their
> fridges.
> >
> > Channeling solar light across large distances sounds like a good idea to
> me.
> >
> > But let's keep this focused on Linux, shall we...
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
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From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Nov  9 09:20:45 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 09:20:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+OB+ZiL_uJV68u5o_HK+eWW9nFd7zkQdv_5CZML2RdWkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
 <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
 <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>
 <20181109140336.GC1787@nobelware.com>
 <b9f35424-be75-40e0-3add-c535cee9adc9@pinenet.com>
 <CAJt84+OB+ZiL_uJV68u5o_HK+eWW9nFd7zkQdv_5CZML2RdWkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <21713da8-40d0-813b-0ffc-4dd7d1129991@pinenet.com>

Look outside, don't slip on the ice.

Without food and energy for billions of people your computer is nothing. 
So how do you use your computer as the tool it was invented to be?? 
Instrumentation, automation, management and control, and Linux is all 
that remains to do it. Want music, videos, games?? Apple and Microsoft 
have you covered.

A good step in using linux is to figure out what to use it for. Sorry, 
but agriculture and energy are necessary.

Jeff Chapin wrote:
> I'm not sure why we are going off about global climate change here,
> attacking colleges, or what this has to do with Linux, and free
> software. Could we stay on topic, and stop the snide political commentary?
>
> Looking back, it appears I may have fed the fires, when I replied to the
> original message -- I did not realize that Brian had included an off
> topic attack on U of M as his 'signature', or that a full third of his
> email was actually a trolling signature --  and I mistakenly commented
> on it. For that, I am sorry, and would like to see us get back on topic.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 8:32 AM Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com
> <mailto:eng at pinenet.com>> wrote:
>
>     A little shifty, Izzy. You owe me (us) a Twitter clarification and some
>     (any) U of M energy expert before a brand new lecture without substance.
>
>     I do plenty of Linux as it pertains to industrial use. But I do plenty
>     more biomass management given that twice the atmospheric CO2 is growing
>     twice the biomass in Minnesota. And there is no market for it.
>
>     In fact, the referenced Indian MIT software expert who made his
>     money in
>     San Francisco is now putting his money into the technology shared here.
>     Those California fires are a warning. Both energy and information
>     technologies combine well, if you had a clue.
>
>     Standard shifty U of M effort to prevent progress. Please provide the
>     previously referred to tweet.
>
>     Iznogoud wrote:
>     > Rick, I like that you are thinking that and you offer a theory,
>     but I think the
>     > data shows otherwise, especially when it comes to wind energy. I
>     just heard
>     > this on the radio two days ago; CEO of Xcel stated numbers on wind
>     power in MN:
>     >
>     https://www.mprnews.org/story/2018/11/07/climate-cast-xcel-electric-cars
>     > Surprising fact: $1-per-gallon equivalent in price; not sure if
>     this is after
>     > subsidies. Also, I spent 15 days in St John (stranded after Irma)
>     and everyone
>     > there had multiple 50V/300W solar panels (at $300 cost) that ran
>     their fridges.
>     >
>     > Channeling solar light across large distances sounds like a good
>     idea to me.
>     >
>     > But let's keep this focused on Linux, shall we...
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     > tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> --
> Jeff Chapin
> President, CedarLug, retired
> President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
> President, UNI Scuba Club
> Senator, NISG, retired
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Fri Nov  9 10:02:35 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 16:02:35 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <21713da8-40d0-813b-0ffc-4dd7d1129991@pinenet.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
 <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
 <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>
 <20181109140336.GC1787@nobelware.com>
 <b9f35424-be75-40e0-3add-c535cee9adc9@pinenet.com>
 <CAJt84+OB+ZiL_uJV68u5o_HK+eWW9nFd7zkQdv_5CZML2RdWkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <21713da8-40d0-813b-0ffc-4dd7d1129991@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <20181109160235.GA1623@nobelware.com>

Jeff, I think it is a good topic, and there is a lot of overlap with Linux,
as an enabling free-software framework for some emerging technologies. There
is a lot that is enabled by, say, an ARM low-power chip running a full-blown
OS, all at super low cost, in support of industrial uses in agriculture and
energy production/conversion. I think Rick has brought up a good topic, and
when it comes to industrial automation enabled by Linux-based embedded systems,
this is likely a list to appreciate the content. I'd certainly like to see a
link or two with some substantial content, especially if it comes from our
local geekery.

But Jeff also has a point, that trying to fuel a "debate" of sorts, that is
largely politically or agenda motivated, is, in my opinion, beyond the scope
of this list and at this point, obviously past the patience of the readers.

Let's stop the debate side of things now, please. I also appologize for having
sent a link, in what looks now like a trolling move. I will send the images to
Rick in a private email.

Curry on.


From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Nov  9 12:06:28 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 12:06:28 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <20181109160235.GA1623@nobelware.com>
References: <mailman.1.1541613601.24928.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
 <5be35673.1c69fb81.a8101.33c0@mx.google.com>
 <20181107222842.GA5914@nobelware.com>
 <E33132B7-9F27-4507-8502-933B1EB9B586@cwis.biz>
 <02001b05-1109-f576-3237-87d4a1cf3d3e@pinenet.com>
 <20181109140336.GC1787@nobelware.com>
 <b9f35424-be75-40e0-3add-c535cee9adc9@pinenet.com>
 <CAJt84+OB+ZiL_uJV68u5o_HK+eWW9nFd7zkQdv_5CZML2RdWkg@mail.gmail.com>
 <21713da8-40d0-813b-0ffc-4dd7d1129991@pinenet.com>
 <20181109160235.GA1623@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <cb557863-a7de-18ef-bd11-83e8b1a3d4ab@pinenet.com>

Got your images.

I would be delighted if the bogus renewable energy political academic 
lobby disappeared. But I was reminded by early 1990s papers recently 
re-discovered in my old briefcase how we have gone backwards. I have 
supportive documents from Arne Carlson, the head of research at NSP, the 
head of the Rural Electric in Wash.DC, Norwegian Consulate, and more, 
all actively interested in rural distributed energy. The same 
non-scientists pushing windmills and solar panels then are pushing them 
now. Even the Science Museum of Minnesota now pushes biomass. I had 
young children then, and was an easy target for the politics.

Energy and agriculture are global multi-trillion dollar industries and 
the center of global attention. I asked if you knew a biophysical 
chemist, and you came close (I did find better in Chem. Engineering and 
he was nice.). The energy network concept exactly mimics the information 
network. Distributed, redundant, National Security. All Linux 
controlled, if anybody could endure that much knowledge.

What I put forth to this group to advance new roofing and photo-chemical 
conversion of cellulose to fuel and fertilizer might arouse some 
innovators' imagination. Clearly not yours, but keep your smug lectures 
to yourself. I get plenty of that crap from old car experts who brag 
what a "gem" the Model T is, and nobody needs a computer in a car.

Iznogoud wrote:
> Jeff, I think it is a good topic, and there is a lot of overlap with Linux,
> as an enabling free-software framework for some emerging technologies. There
> is a lot that is enabled by, say, an ARM low-power chip running a full-blown
> OS, all at super low cost, in support of industrial uses in agriculture and
> energy production/conversion. I think Rick has brought up a good topic, and
> when it comes to industrial automation enabled by Linux-based embedded systems,
> this is likely a list to appreciate the content. I'd certainly like to see a
> link or two with some substantial content, especially if it comes from our
> local geekery.
>
> But Jeff also has a point, that trying to fuel a "debate" of sorts, that is
> largely politically or agenda motivated, is, in my opinion, beyond the scope
> of this list and at this point, obviously past the patience of the readers.
>
> Let's stop the debate side of things now, please. I also appologize for having
> sent a link, in what looks now like a trolling move. I will send the images to
> Rick in a private email.
>
> Curry on.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Fri Nov  9 12:48:49 2018
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 12:48:49 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
Message-ID: <CABWFOjupn0xZtbA-bZ5JpeX-D7Sa3mJCRTarVmFVqDiVYumO8w@mail.gmail.com>

harv writes:
> So am I. Was an Archlinux user for years but cancer known
> as systemd appeared so needed to look elsewhere. ~2016 tried
> TrueOS and fell in love with zfs filesystem. Unfortunately,
> TrueOS 1803- the preconfigured version hasn't updated since
> march. RC-1 and RC-2 of Project Trident didn't work for me so
> installed FreeBSD 11.2 and lumina DE- developed
> by Trueos devs- and am a happy camper :-)

I'm confused by what's been going on with TrueOS, Trident
and GhostBSD.   The thought occurred to me that the word
'ghost' in the name may mean they wish to be vague about
who is behind it.

I tried the latest version of GhostBSD now and am not sure
if I'm going to stick with it.  I had a few small problems. One
was not being able to log out and log back in as a different user.

What you mention about using FreeBSD and lumina sounds
interesting.  Did you build lumina from ports?  I've had mixed
results with building things from ports the few times I've done
that.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
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From 42dch42 at gmail.com  Sat Nov 10 12:48:56 2018
From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv)
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 12:48:56 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1541872801.12441.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1541872801.12441.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <5be7281a.1c69fb81.0df6.e18b@mx.google.com>




On 2018-11-10 12:00:01 UTC
tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org opined:
>    2. Re: GhostBSD and TrueOS (Brian Wood)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 12:48:49 -0600
> From: Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com>
> To: tclug-list <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
> Message-ID:
> 	<CABWFOjupn0xZtbA-bZ5JpeX-D7Sa3mJCRTarVmFVqDiVYumO8w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> harv writes:
> > So am I. Was an Archlinux user for years but cancer known
> > as systemd appeared so needed to look elsewhere. ~2016 tried
> > TrueOS and fell in love with zfs filesystem. Unfortunately,
> > TrueOS 1803- the preconfigured version hasn't updated since
> > march. RC-1 and RC-2 of Project Trident didn't work for me so
> > installed FreeBSD 11.2 and lumina DE- developed
> > by Trueos devs- and am a happy camper :-)  
> 
> I'm confused by what's been going on with TrueOS, Trident
> and GhostBSD.   The thought occurred to me that the word
> 'ghost' in the name may mean they wish to be vague about
> who is behind it.
> 
GhostBSD has been around since long before TrueOS came on the scene
and based on FreeBSD. Not sure which branch though.

TrueOS started out as PC-BSD and is based on FreeBSD-current. Up to
version 1803 it came with preconfigured graphical desktop. For version
1806 they decided to drop the desktop and make the distro more of
something others could use as a base to build on.
https://www.trueos.org/blog/trueosdownstream/
And this is what GhostBSD decided to do- switch their base from
whatever branch of FreeBSD they were on to TrueOS.

Project Trident is a continuation of TrueOS with graphical desktop.
They released RC-3 todaybut with some caveats. See here:
https://discourse.trueos.org/t/rc3-update-taken-from-telegram/3431

> I tried the latest version of GhostBSD now and am not sure
> if I'm going to stick with it.  I had a few small problems. One
> was not being able to log out and log back in as a different user.
> 
> What you mention about using FreeBSD and lumina sounds
> interesting.  Did you build lumina from ports?  I've had mixed
> results with building things from ports the few times I've done
> that.

Nope. There is a lumina meta-package but its not complete. Probably
also want the pcbsd-utils-qt5 package as well.

harv

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 11:51:09 2018
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 11:51:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
Message-ID: <CABWFOjtbfp_rUbotdzqhVAJPBKtSGehqmRVjXDUy3LVMx99uQA@mail.gmail.com>

Brian Wood writes:
>harv writes:
>> So am I. Was an Archlinux user for years but cancer known
>> as systemd appeared so needed to look elsewhere. ~2016 tried
>> TrueOS and fell in love with zfs filesystem. Unfortunately,
>> TrueOS 1803- the preconfigured version hasn't updated since
>> march. RC-1 and RC-2 of Project Trident didn't work for me so
>> installed FreeBSD 11.2 and lumina DE- developed
>> by Trueos devs- and am a happy camper :-)
>
>
> I tried the latest version of GhostBSD now and am not sure
> if I'm going to stick with it.  I had a few small problems. One
> was not being able to log out and log back in as a different user.
>
> What you mention about using FreeBSD and lumina sounds
> interesting.  Did you build lumina from ports?  I've had mixed
> results with building things from ports the few times I've done
> that.
>

I did this now without much difficulty.  It took me a while to
figure out that I had to create a .xinitrc file.  I also had to relearn
the 'mount' command as there wasn't any automounting.

One thing I haven't figured out is how to change the size of
windows.  I'm stuck with either their initial size or making them
full screen.  I forgot to check on the firewall stuff when I had
the latest version of GhostBSD installed.  I still have that
version on a usb so maybe I could check it without having
to reinstall it.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
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From 42dch42 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 11 17:52:54 2018
From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv)
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 17:52:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1541959202.7671.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1541959202.7671.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <5be8c0d7.1c69fb81.de9cd.8d6c@mx.google.com>

Sun, 11 Nov 2018 12:00:02 -0600
tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org opined:
> Brian Wood writes:
> >harv writes:  
> >> So am I. Was an Archlinux user for years but cancer known
> >> as systemd appeared so needed to look elsewhere. ~2016 tried
> >> TrueOS and fell in love with zfs filesystem. Unfortunately,
> >> TrueOS 1803- the preconfigured version hasn't updated since
> >> march. RC-1 and RC-2 of Project Trident didn't work for me so
> >> installed FreeBSD 11.2 and lumina DE- developed
> >> by Trueos devs- and am a happy camper :-)  
> >
> >
> > I tried the latest version of GhostBSD now and am not sure
> > if I'm going to stick with it.  I had a few small problems. One
> > was not being able to log out and log back in as a different user.
> >
> > What you mention about using FreeBSD and lumina sounds
> > interesting.  Did you build lumina from ports?  I've had mixed
> > results with building things from ports the few times I've done
> > that.
> >  
> 
> I did this now without much difficulty.  It took me a while to
> figure out that I had to create a .xinitrc file.  I also had to relearn
> the 'mount' command as there wasn't any automounting.
> 
For things you want mounted at boot time, add them to /etc/fstab.
For auto-mounting things like usb sticks there is the automount package.
I prefer to manually mount such things so  don't use it and thus cannot
advise.

> One thing I haven't figured out is how to change the size of
> windows.  I'm stuck with either their initial size or making them
> full screen.  

In lumina, grabbing a window by lower right corner and dragging works
for me.

>I forgot to check on the firewall stuff when I had
> the latest version of GhostBSD installed.  I still have that
> version on a usb so maybe I could check it without having
> to reinstall it.

What do you mean by firewall stuff? What exactly are you looking for?

-- 
harv


From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 12 12:57:53 2018
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 12:57:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
Message-ID: <CABWFOjs9f3nv6hKo78G3cqF4mhs4HnSo18qzxMgU2EjROan_kQ@mail.gmail.com>

harv writes:
> Brian Wood writes:
>> One thing I haven't figured out is how to change the size of
>> windows.  I'm stuck with either their initial size or making them
>> full screen.
>
> In lumina, grabbing a window by lower right corner and dragging
> works for me.

I have a charcoal background that says "LUMINA DESKTOP
ENVIRONMENT" on it.  I get an xterm by right clicking on the
desktop and clicking on "Terminal".  After that though, I haven't
figured out how to resize the terminal.  Maybe you have a
configuration file that I don't have


>>I forgot to check on the firewall stuff when I had
>> the latest version of GhostBSD installed.  I still have that
>> version on a usb so maybe I could check it without having
>> to reinstall it.
>
> What do you mean by firewall stuff? What exactly are you looking for?

I think TrueOS used to imbue a firewall by default.
The version of GhostBSD before they started using TrueOS
didn't do that.  I forgot to check if the new version of GhostBSD
does or not.

Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - As the deer pants for streams of water,
so my soul pants for you, O G-d.  Psalms 42:1

https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Mon Nov 12 22:43:19 2018
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 22:43:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] offsite backup
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>

i'm considering prospects for offsite backup.  your comments are most
welcome.  what options are available and sensible?  requirements specify
metadata, filenames, and paths should be encrypted prior to sending to the
offsite archive.  encrypted communication together with encrypted storage
might satisfy.  perhaps it's silly picky to point out there's a moment in
between when it's unencrypted.

an attractive solution would be a vps with mega cheap storage.  but i doubt
they can come anywhere near the capacity and prices of the likes of
rsync.net.  or can they?

backuppc is doing well on-site.  i like that it does not re-transfer files
already backed up, even when doing a full backup.  however it must run on
the backup storage server.  i doubt that's possible with services like
rsync.net.  or is it?

a strategy that comes to mind is to rsync the backuppc storage heirarchy
(can omit the ?(c)pool).  last i knew, asking rsync to mirror such a sea of
hardlinks caused it to demand obscene amounts of ram.  who knows, might
work, might not.  newer versions of rsync might do better, i dunno yet.

duplicity certainly is popular, and provides encryption.  i doubt it is as
efficient about bandwidth, or storage, as backuppc, particularly regarding
full backups.  or is it?

if there's a trove somewhere that addresses such questions, please point.
tia,
greg
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From 42dch42 at gmail.com  Tue Nov 13 17:34:14 2018
From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 17:34:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] GhostBSD and TrueOS
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1542132001.32057.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1542132001.32057.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <5beb5f77.1c69fb81.8e49f.9d48@mx.google.com>

Tue, 13 Nov 2018 12:00:01 -0600
Brian Wood opined:
> harv writes:
> > Brian Wood writes:  
> >> One thing I haven't figured out is how to change the size of
> >> windows.  I'm stuck with either their initial size or making them
> >> full screen.  
> >
> > In lumina, grabbing a window by lower right corner and dragging
> > works for me.  
> 
> I have a charcoal background that says "LUMINA DESKTOP
> ENVIRONMENT" on it.  I get an xterm by right clicking on the
> desktop and clicking on "Terminal".  After that though, I haven't
> figured out how to resize the terminal.  Maybe you have a
> configuration file that I don't have
> 
Are you sure you installed the Lumina meta-package?
% pkg install lumina

I ask because for me right-clicking on desktop and clicking 'terminal'
loads QTerminal. I can start xterm by navigating to
'Applications'->'System'->'xterm' in right-click menu.
In either event I have the usual minimize, maximize and close buttons
in top left corner of window and can grab lower right corner to
manually resize.
Also can minimize, maximize or close by right-clicking on window title
bar or icon in task bar.

Incidently, you can add a start menu to task bar ala TrueOS by
right-clicking on desktop then 'Preferences'->'All Desktop Settings'
->'Panels'
> 
> >>I forgot to check on the firewall stuff when I had
> >> the latest version of GhostBSD installed.  I still have that
> >> version on a usb so maybe I could check it without having
> >> to reinstall it.  
> >
> > What do you mean by firewall stuff? What exactly are you looking for?  
> 
> I think TrueOS used to imbue a firewall by default.
> The version of GhostBSD before they started using TrueOS
> didn't do that.  I forgot to check if the new version of GhostBSD
> does or not.
> 
If you installed the pcbsd-utils-qt5 package as I suggested it includes
a firewall manager or at least that is what the package description
states seeing as I didn't install it myself.

Otherwise, as I mentioned previously, IPFW and PF are both installed
by FreeBSD. You just need to add some rules and enable one of them
in /etc/rc.conf.
If you don't know how/want to write rules you don't have to. See here
https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/books/handbook/firewalls-ipfw.html


From rhayman at pureice.com  Tue Nov 13 19:19:31 2018
From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:19:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] offsite backup
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1542158371.3281.9.camel@pureice.com>

Have you looked at AWS as a backup solution?
https://www.quora.com/Is-it
-a-good-strategy-to-backup-your-data-on-AWS-for-offsite-backups
They boast eleven 9s of reliability - that's less than 1 one-thousandths of a second of unavailability in a year, where a year equates to 365.25 days, or 31447600 seconds.
On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 22:43 -0600, gregrwm wrote:
> i'm considering prospects for offsite backup.? your comments are most
> welcome.? what options are available and sensible?? requirements
> specify metadata, filenames, and paths should be encrypted prior to
> sending to the offsite archive.? encrypted??communication together
> with encrypted storage might satisfy.? perhaps it's silly picky to
> point out there's a moment in between when it's unencrypted.
> 
> an attractive solution would be a vps with mega cheap storage.? but i
> doubt they can come anywhere near the capacity and prices of the
> likes of rsync.net.? or can they?
> 
> backuppc is doing well on-site.? i like that it does not re-transfer
> files already backed up, even when doing a full backup.? however it
> must run on the backup storage server.? i doubt that's possible with
> services like rsync.net.? or is it?
> 
> a strategy that comes to mind is to rsync the backuppc storage
> heirarchy (can omit the ?(c)pool).? last i knew, asking rsync to
> mirror such a sea of hardlinks caused it to demand obscene amounts of
> ram.? who knows, might work, might not.? newer versions of rsync
> might do better, i dunno yet.
> 
> duplicity certainly is popular, and provides encryption.? i doubt it
> is as efficient about bandwidth, or storage, as backuppc,
> particularly regarding full backups.? or is it?
> 
> if there's a trove somewhere that addresses such questions, please
> point.
> tia,
> greg
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From rhayman at pureice.com  Tue Nov 13 19:33:04 2018
From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman)
Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2018 19:33:04 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] offsite backup
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1542159184.3281.14.camel@pureice.com>

Also, keep in mind your *upload* max rate...
If you have a 10 Megabit upload max, for example, 500 GigaBytes, will
take you no less than 4 15:06:40 to upload it - 4 days, 15 hours, 6
minutes, and 40 seconds if you can achieve and sustain your max upload
rate (without compression).
On Mon, 2018-11-12 at 22:43 -0600, gregrwm wrote:
> i'm considering prospects for offsite backup.? your comments are most
> welcome.? what options are available and sensible?? requirements
> specify metadata, filenames, and paths should be encrypted prior to
> sending to the offsite archive.? encrypted??communication together
> with encrypted storage might satisfy.? perhaps it's silly picky to
> point out there's a moment in between when it's unencrypted.
> 
> an attractive solution would be a vps with mega cheap storage.? but i
> doubt they can come anywhere near the capacity and prices of the
> likes of rsync.net.? or can they?
> 
> backuppc is doing well on-site.? i like that it does not re-transfer
> files already backed up, even when doing a full backup.? however it
> must run on the backup storage server.? i doubt that's possible with
> services like rsync.net.? or is it?
> 
> a strategy that comes to mind is to rsync the backuppc storage
> heirarchy (can omit the ?(c)pool).? last i knew, asking rsync to
> mirror such a sea of hardlinks caused it to demand obscene amounts of
> ram.? who knows, might work, might not.? newer versions of rsync
> might do better, i dunno yet.
> 
> duplicity certainly is popular, and provides encryption.? i doubt it
> is as efficient about bandwidth, or storage, as backuppc,
> particularly regarding full backups.? or is it?
> 
> if there's a trove somewhere that addresses such questions, please
> point.
> tia,
> greg
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
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From jpschewe at mtu.net  Wed Nov 14 05:19:46 2018
From: jpschewe at mtu.net (Jon Schewe)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:19:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] offsite backup
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALpcnox_eB5=_J2rdNF3bDPrkebvkzRqG7aUrvx_HWU9SSuDUA@mail.gmail.com>

Some backup software that I've been fairly happy with is Duplicati. It's
2.0 release is still in beta, but it's been quite stable. It can talk to
multiple backends for storage.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 10:51 PM gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:

> i'm considering prospects for offsite backup.  your comments are most
> welcome.  what options are available and sensible?  requirements specify
> metadata, filenames, and paths should be encrypted prior to sending to the
> offsite archive.  encrypted communication together with encrypted storage
> might satisfy.  perhaps it's silly picky to point out there's a moment in
> between when it's unencrypted.
>
> an attractive solution would be a vps with mega cheap storage.  but i
> doubt they can come anywhere near the capacity and prices of the likes of
> rsync.net.  or can they?
>
> backuppc is doing well on-site.  i like that it does not re-transfer files
> already backed up, even when doing a full backup.  however it must run on
> the backup storage server.  i doubt that's possible with services like
> rsync.net.  or is it?
>
> a strategy that comes to mind is to rsync the backuppc storage heirarchy
> (can omit the ?(c)pool).  last i knew, asking rsync to mirror such a sea of
> hardlinks caused it to demand obscene amounts of ram.  who knows, might
> work, might not.  newer versions of rsync might do better, i dunno yet.
>
> duplicity certainly is popular, and provides encryption.  i doubt it is as
> efficient about bandwidth, or storage, as backuppc, particularly regarding
> full backups.  or is it?
>
> if there's a trove somewhere that addresses such questions, please point.
> tia,
> greg
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
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From jjensen at apache.org  Wed Nov 14 07:42:31 2018
From: jjensen at apache.org (Jeff Jensen)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 07:42:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] offsite backup
In-Reply-To: <CALpcnox_eB5=_J2rdNF3bDPrkebvkzRqG7aUrvx_HWU9SSuDUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALpcnox_eB5=_J2rdNF3bDPrkebvkzRqG7aUrvx_HWU9SSuDUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAKumxBw-qmCc_KnOqvW87GH4gybskUsfAzmCMky4m3ACeJhAAA@mail.gmail.com>

I went through a few products,including BackupPC, then CrashPlan, and then
evaluated some and chose IDrive.  SpiderOak is a close second but is a
little more expensive.  IDrive is not an awesome product (the occasionally
apparent missing UI feature), but it works well and has the best pricing I
found for feature/function.

I've done AWS and S3 work so am comfy with that approach, but the time
value of that self managed approach vs a turnkey product made me choose a
product like IDrive.


On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:20 AM Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:

> Some backup software that I've been fairly happy with is Duplicati. It's
> 2.0 release is still in beta, but it's been quite stable. It can talk to
> multiple backends for storage.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 10:51 PM gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
>
>> i'm considering prospects for offsite backup.  your comments are most
>> welcome.  what options are available and sensible?  requirements specify
>> metadata, filenames, and paths should be encrypted prior to sending to the
>> offsite archive.  encrypted communication together with encrypted storage
>> might satisfy.  perhaps it's silly picky to point out there's a moment in
>> between when it's unencrypted.
>>
>> an attractive solution would be a vps with mega cheap storage.  but i
>> doubt they can come anywhere near the capacity and prices of the likes of
>> rsync.net.  or can they?
>>
>> backuppc is doing well on-site.  i like that it does not re-transfer
>> files already backed up, even when doing a full backup.  however it must
>> run on the backup storage server.  i doubt that's possible with services
>> like rsync.net.  or is it?
>>
>> a strategy that comes to mind is to rsync the backuppc storage heirarchy
>> (can omit the ?(c)pool).  last i knew, asking rsync to mirror such a sea of
>> hardlinks caused it to demand obscene amounts of ram.  who knows, might
>> work, might not.  newer versions of rsync might do better, i dunno yet.
>>
>> duplicity certainly is popular, and provides encryption.  i doubt it is
>> as efficient about bandwidth, or storage, as backuppc, particularly
>> regarding full backups.  or is it?
>>
>> if there's a trove somewhere that addresses such questions, please point.
>> tia,
>> greg
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
>
>
> --
> http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From cdf123 at cdf123.net  Wed Nov 14 09:01:46 2018
From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 09:01:46 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] offsite backup
In-Reply-To: <CAKumxBw-qmCc_KnOqvW87GH4gybskUsfAzmCMky4m3ACeJhAAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9C8iYnhzbZvX3+Ea2Z7PAwjZhhTGzsNECqTJBLKKP0o=A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALpcnox_eB5=_J2rdNF3bDPrkebvkzRqG7aUrvx_HWU9SSuDUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAKumxBw-qmCc_KnOqvW87GH4gybskUsfAzmCMky4m3ACeJhAAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3cb24928-1789-c283-3ba1-51b145d6f78e@cdf123.net>

I did a blog post on a project using AWS EC2 for hosting a network block device that you can mount
and wrap with cryptsetup.  Full encryption without the provider having any access to crypto keys, or
any metadata (e.g. luks headers).

http://cdf123x.blogspot.com/2017/09/bulletproof-encrypted-cloud-storage.html

I use it for more sensitive and smaller backups like local git repos, gpg, keepass dbs.

But the storage is too expensive for my main backups (1.2T currently) so I also signed up with
IDrive.  I can't beat their price.  They have a linux backup application, but I kept getting
dependency issues with it, and I'm not sure I trust it being closed source.  But I also don't want
to have to deal with encrypting all the files before the backup, then backing up the files through a
browser and their web interface.  My server is headless so I'd have to do all of this over nfs or
sshfs from my desktop.

I've been planning on doing some small transfers while capturing the traffic through a proxy, then
hopefully using something like python to automate the whole upload.  If I can get it working, I
should be able to throw in some crypto library and be good to go.  Just need the time to actually do
it, which is always the hard part.

On 11/14/18 07:42, Jeff Jensen wrote:
> I went through a few products,including BackupPC, then CrashPlan, and then
> evaluated some and chose IDrive.  SpiderOak is a close second but is a
> little more expensive.  IDrive is not an awesome product (the occasionally
> apparent missing UI feature), but it works well and has the best pricing I
> found for feature/function.
> 
> I've done AWS and S3 work so am comfy with that approach, but the time
> value of that self managed approach vs a turnkey product made me choose a
> product like IDrive.
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 14, 2018 at 5:20 AM Jon Schewe <jpschewe at mtu.net> wrote:
> 
>> Some backup software that I've been fairly happy with is Duplicati. It's
>> 2.0 release is still in beta, but it's been quite stable. It can talk to
>> multiple backends for storage.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 10:51 PM gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
>>
>>> i'm considering prospects for offsite backup.  your comments are most
>>> welcome.  what options are available and sensible?  requirements specify
>>> metadata, filenames, and paths should be encrypted prior to sending to the
>>> offsite archive.  encrypted communication together with encrypted storage
>>> might satisfy.  perhaps it's silly picky to point out there's a moment in
>>> between when it's unencrypted.
>>>
>>> an attractive solution would be a vps with mega cheap storage.  but i
>>> doubt they can come anywhere near the capacity and prices of the likes of
>>> rsync.net.  or can they?
>>>
>>> backuppc is doing well on-site.  i like that it does not re-transfer
>>> files already backed up, even when doing a full backup.  however it must
>>> run on the backup storage server.  i doubt that's possible with services
>>> like rsync.net.  or is it?
>>>
>>> a strategy that comes to mind is to rsync the backuppc storage heirarchy
>>> (can omit the ?(c)pool).  last i knew, asking rsync to mirror such a sea of
>>> hardlinks caused it to demand obscene amounts of ram.  who knows, might
>>> work, might not.  newer versions of rsync might do better, i dunno yet.
>>>
>>> duplicity certainly is popular, and provides encryption.  i doubt it is
>>> as efficient about bandwidth, or storage, as backuppc, particularly
>>> regarding full backups.  or is it?
>>>
>>> if there's a trove somewhere that addresses such questions, please point.
>>> tia,
>>> greg
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://mtu.net/~jpschewe
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 

From kermit4 at gmail.com  Wed Nov 14 10:55:54 2018
From: kermit4 at gmail.com (Christopher Pearson)
Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2018 10:55:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] offsite backup
In-Reply-To: <mailman.419.1542194407.1941.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.419.1542194407.1941.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <CAGtzr3c-XaAm2BJurB=PWUoo1qBaiu4_+thTpCe_fBYc30q_Fw@mail.gmail.com>

I use incremental tar and ccrypt to Google Drive.  Incremental tar has some
bugs in perfectly extracting if you renamed directories or something but
its good for bulk.  I also use LUKS on top of md with bitmaps with one of
the mirrors on sshfs  to a VPS and sync it up every minute ..but it took
some work getting it to work reliably.

People tell me to use lsyncd.  You could use that, or rdiff-backup, or
rsync, or rsync --link-dest for versioning, with a VPS on an ecrypted
filesystem, but I suspect there are better ways.

I've wanted to try https://nbd.sourceforge.io/ instead of md over sshfs.

> i'm considering prospects for offsite backup.? your comments are most
>
>
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From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sun Nov 25 11:40:40 2018
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 11:40:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Includes for syslog()
Message-ID: <CABWFOjtO1cuYfsGnKW-=v7Fm=ceNS=T57wQLodA4syrTtYAg+g@mail.gmail.com>

Shalom

This page
https://www.unix.com/man-page/freebsd/3/openlog/

lists
#include <syslog.h>
#include <stdarg.h>

as includes on a FreeBSD system. On Linux there's
no mention of stdarg.h.  I was wondering if stdarg.h
is only needed on FreeBSD if you call vsyslog() and
the documentation just doesn't mention that.  From
what I can tell, stdarg.h isn't needed on FreeBSD if
I only call openlog() and syslog().

Also today is Small Business Sunday.  I have an
offer to help someone who is willing to use my
software here:  http://webEbenezer.net/about.html
Thanks in advance.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again.
http://webEbenezer.net
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From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Sun Nov 25 14:22:41 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 20:22:41 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Includes for syslog()
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjtO1cuYfsGnKW-=v7Fm=ceNS=T57wQLodA4syrTtYAg+g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjtO1cuYfsGnKW-=v7Fm=ceNS=T57wQLodA4syrTtYAg+g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20181125202241.GA2500@nobelware.com>

I looked in both the Linux and the OpenBSD syslog.h file. The OpenBSD does not
list inclusion of the stdarg, so, as the manual page says, you will need to
include both, and I do not know why you would not, regardless of what call yuo
need to make.

The linux one looks like this near the top:

#include <features.h>
#define __need___va_list
#include <stdarg.h>

Given that it defines the "need" thing for what I assume is "variable
argument" functions, two things I can infer: (a) you, obviously, cannot
do without including the stdarg unless you copy the syslog.h to a new
location (maybe for testing), and (b) Linux wants to take care of some
things for you in case you need va functions, probably for your own good.


If we knew what your software actually did, maybe we would look at it.


From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Mon Nov 26 13:37:24 2018
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 13:37:24 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Includes for syslog()
Message-ID: <CABWFOjskTr_uczrjpzQbE+jYUBnsBWAVP3xFDCg+k64-TQLzgQ@mail.gmail.com>

Iznogoud writes:
> I looked in both the Linux and the OpenBSD syslog.h file. The OpenBSD
> does not list inclusion of the stdarg, so, as the manual page says, you
> will need to include both, and I do not know why you would not,
regardless
> of what call yuo need to make.
>
> The linux one looks like this near the top:
>
> #include <features.h>
> #define __need___va_list
> #include <stdarg.h>
>
> Given that it defines the "need" thing for what I assume is "variable
> argument" functions, two things I can infer: (a) you, obviously, cannot
> do without including the stdarg unless you copy the syslog.h to a new
> location (maybe for testing), and (b) Linux wants to take care of some
> things for you in case you need va functions,

Thanks for your reply.  I hadn't looked at that, but had
wondered if that's what was happening on Linux.

> probably for your own good.

I consider this to be a strong point for FreeBSD.  I don't
want to include stdarg.h if I don't have to.  (It will happen
regardless on Linux, but at least on FreeBSD it won't.)

I got another reply on another list as follows:
>> On Linux there's
>> no mention of stdarg.h.  I was wondering if stdarg.h
>> is only needed on FreeBSD if you call vsyslog() and
>
>    That's correct, nothing about syslog needs you to include stdarg,
> but you'll need the macros in there if you want to call vsyslog.

The bottom line is I was able to safely remove the include
of stdarg from my code.  It's a minor thing, but at least it
will help a little with build times, especially on FreeBSD.

Speaking of build times, I've noticed my executables are about
2% smaller on FreeBSD 11.2 than on Linux 4.19 (Manjaro).
Another thing to like about FreeBSD, but I will say that Manjaro is
an OK Linux distro.  I used to have to change Linux distros about
every six months because something failed on the one I was
using.  Manjaro hasn't been like that.


Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
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From eng at pinenet.com  Mon Nov 26 21:20:09 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 21:20:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
Message-ID: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>

I don't know how to package this commentary, and I'm sure many know this 
stuff, but I'm a little shocked to be reminded how ignorant of Unix and 
Linux I am.

First, I get insulted a lot. Worth remembering was a young climate 
scientist from Berkeley who declared the language TCL was too old and he 
wouldn't waste time on it. Now I learn the current TCL release manager 
is Don Porter of the National Institute of Standards and Technology 
(NIST). Same group Don Libes worked at when creating the TCL extension 
"Expect" in the early 1990s.

Expect is very worth learning so I've been playing with it to launch the 
current C Shell (tcsh), leading to reading a 1994 C Shell book by David 
Ennis.

That C Shell book is an eye opener. The foundation of the Unix user 
interface is "Commands" which are in fact "process Objects." All the 
object terms like "encapsulation, polymorphism, inheritance, public, 
private, scope, methods, constructor," etc. are evident in old Unix 
tools. Plus subshells and jobs, etc. This creates a lot of room for us 
brain space limited programmers to make simple tools instead of mega 
byte monsters. Compare that multi-dimensional (multi-tasking is far too 
understated) Unix to MSDOS of the time.

I know bash is glorious, and the Z shell more so. But with a super 
computer or two sitting on my desk, and linux only the cost of trying 
it, I need to program for simplicity and reliability again.

Automation and artificial intelligence will not likely be buried in 
proprietary secrets and confusion.

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Tue Nov 27 13:30:10 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 19:30:10 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>

I think a life of learning is a life worth living; you are doing this right.
Never too late to learn,... anything.

I am a C-shell person, but not because I program anything for the shell.
Deep inside, I wish I had spent more time programming the various shells
early on. But given I do not find this lack of knowledge a hindrance, I
have no incentive to learn it... In that regard, the OS this list is about
appears to be versatile enough to accommodate a person like me.

I never thought of unix CLI tools as having "object orientation" as a part
of their use; maybe that is where your books tell a tale I do not know.


From eng at pinenet.com  Tue Nov 27 14:29:35 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 14:29:35 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>

No, I'm working with some serious ignorance here. So the smallest thing 
is profound enlightenment.

For example, it is well known that "background processes" can't use the 
terminal interface. But try start several xterm& (background xterms) and 
you will still get several fully functional xterm windows. I knew the 
window manager can all start from a single xterm and "spawn" an eyefull. 
Try this a couple of times from a single terminal and consider all the 
inherited environment and file descriptors -->>

 > xterm&; xterm&; xterm&;


And all the command line arguments certainly provide different 
functionality to the hidden protected command object. When a half baked 
programmer like me can't figure out what he programs, how can the user?? 
At least I can keep it small and simple.

Iznogoud wrote:
> I think a life of learning is a life worth living; you are doing this right.
> Never too late to learn,... anything.
>
> I am a C-shell person, but not because I program anything for the shell.
> Deep inside, I wish I had spent more time programming the various shells
> early on. But given I do not find this lack of knowledge a hindrance, I
> have no incentive to learn it... In that regard, the OS this list is about
> appears to be versatile enough to accommodate a person like me.
>
> I never thought of unix CLI tools as having "object orientation" as a part
> of their use; maybe that is where your books tell a tale I do not know.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Nov 27 15:20:25 2018
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:20:25 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>

> For example, it is well known that "background processes" can't use the
> terminal interface. But try start several xterm& (background xterms) and
> you will still get several fully functional xterm windows.


background jobs may indeed output to the terminal, unless
stty tostop
is in effect, whereupon the job will receive the TSTP signal upon
attempting output to the terminal.  the default result of receiving TSTP is
for the job to be stopped.

for exquisite confusion, background jobs may also input from the terminal.
if there's a setting that controls that, i'm unaware...
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From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Tue Nov 27 15:25:54 2018
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 15:25:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+Mekq71pDimijWh+3812P2Kfa6wqEteYpTbrjthqW0ThA@mail.gmail.com>

> for exquisite confusion, background jobs may also input from the
terminal.  if there's a setting that controls that, i'm unaware...

In the darker days of my youth, I routinely used this feature with some of
the scripts a coworker delivered for company use.

I distinctly remember the day in college when we also figured out how to
send raw keystrokes from one SSH session to another. We had left a 'yum
upgrade' running, and it was waiting for a 'y' to confirm the changes, and
we had not yet discovered the wonderous thing known as 'screen', and would
rather figure out how to echo keys through /dev/pts0 than kill and restart
a process on a new session.

On Tue, Nov 27, 2018 at 3:21 PM gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:

> For example, it is well known that "background processes" can't use the
>> terminal interface. But try start several xterm& (background xterms) and
>> you will still get several fully functional xterm windows.
>
>
> background jobs may indeed output to the terminal, unless
> stty tostop
> is in effect, whereupon the job will receive the TSTP signal upon
> attempting output to the terminal.  the default result of receiving TSTP is
> for the job to be stopped.
>
> for exquisite confusion, background jobs may also input from the
> terminal.  if there's a setting that controls that, i'm unaware...
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
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From eng at pinenet.com  Tue Nov 27 17:01:14 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2018 17:01:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>

"exquisite confusion" Love it.


gregrwm wrote:
>     For example, it is well known that "background processes" can't use
>     the  terminal interface. But try start several xterm& (background
>     xterms) and you will still get several fully functional xterm windows.
>
>
> background jobs may indeed output to the terminal, unless
> stty tostop
> is in effect, whereupon the job will receive the TSTP signal upon
> attempting output to the terminal.  the default result of receiving TSTP
> is for the job to be stopped.
>
> for exquisite confusion, background jobs may also input from the
> terminal.  if there's a setting that controls that, i'm unaware...
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Wed Nov 28 17:22:35 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 23:22:35 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>

Your 'xterm&; xterm&;' has a few issues to point out. First, you do not need
the semi-colon at all. And second, you are spawning processes that need to
connect to an X server, which is where the "user interface" lives for them.
"User interface" was just ambiguous here, methinks.

No file descriptors are passed around with creating background processes; those
are possible only when done programatically, although there are exceptions.

OK, so I looked for the rest, especially the "reverse" setting of "tostop".
There isn't one. All of what I know, and likely all of what exists, is here:
https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.bpxa400/bpxug212.htm


From gsker at skerbitz.org  Wed Nov 28 18:38:27 2018
From: gsker at skerbitz.org (gerry)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 18:38:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
 <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1811281835540.8026@skerbitz.org>

>From the stty man page:

Optional - before SETTING indicates negation.  An * marks non-POSIX
            settings.  The underlying system  defines which settings are available.

--
gsker

On Wed, 28 Nov 2018, Iznogoud wrote:
[snip]
> OK, so I looked for the rest, especially the "reverse" setting of "tostop".
> There isn't one. All of what I know, and likely all of what exists, is here:
> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.bpxa400/bpxug212.htm
[snip]

From eng at pinenet.com  Wed Nov 28 23:32:18 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2018 23:32:18 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
 <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <ca647b93-2e4f-f0cb-0486-87d179df1891@pinenet.com>

I'm sure you and gerry and all are right. I'm glad you tried the trick 
and know that the Xserver and spawned subshells and ptys are decent 
options besides the interactive command line interface. Tcl/Tk is still 
useful.

And your good IBM reference suggests redirecting background output to a 
file. Probably how log files were invented.

I'm recovering from a big adventure today. I drove for an hour to 
Cambridge to check out Goodwill electronics. Never been there before but 
just as I started looking around the small electronics area some 
employee decided to park his cart and started dumping nice stuff for 
recycling. He didn't take my hint to maybe give me a chance to look 
first. Last thing I need is to get arrested making a fuss at Goodwill 
for their junk 50 miles away. So I quick grabbed 2 once fancy cd players 
and, with senior discount, paid $15 for both. And I heard some great old 
music in the car coming home. Checking the inside of these cd units they 
look great.

So I don't know what is going on these days. A confused old guy needs to 
be careful to stay out of trouble.


Iznogoud wrote:
> Your 'xterm&; xterm&;' has a few issues to point out. First, you do not need
> the semi-colon at all. And second, you are spawning processes that need to
> connect to an X server, which is where the "user interface" lives for them.
> "User interface" was just ambiguous here, methinks.
>
> No file descriptors are passed around with creating background processes; those
> are possible only when done programatically, although there are exceptions.
>
> OK, so I looked for the rest, especially the "reverse" setting of "tostop".
> There isn't one. All of what I know, and likely all of what exists, is here:
> https://www.ibm.com/support/knowledgecenter/en/SSLTBW_2.1.0/com.ibm.zos.v2r1.bpxa400/bpxug212.htm
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Thu Nov 29 08:10:37 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 08:10:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1811281835540.8026@skerbitz.org>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
 <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.21.1811281835540.8026@skerbitz.org>
Message-ID: <20181129141037.GA1844@nobelware.com>

> 
> >From the stty man page:
> 
> Optional - before SETTING indicates negation.  An * marks non-POSIX
>            settings.  The underlying system  defines which settings are available.
>

YOu misinterpreted what I meant by "reverse" in this case, which is why I had
put it in quotes; I was refering to the question on the "input required" state,
for which, naturally, the software stops. And thinking about it some more,
the behaviour of the OS is correct; the process stops but does not terminate
and needs to be brought to the forground to get its input and continue. (We
are not talking about redirecting inputs to it here.)

Also, I just looked at the man page, and to my surprise, the [-]tostop is
a non-POSIX switch. Did not axpect that. In fact, I did not expect MOST
switches on this stty are non-POSIX.


From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Thu Nov 29 08:15:03 2018
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 08:15:03 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <ca647b93-2e4f-f0cb-0486-87d179df1891@pinenet.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
 <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
 <ca647b93-2e4f-f0cb-0486-87d179df1891@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <20181129141503.GB1844@nobelware.com>

Some people much much younger than you and I have never used a CD for music,
or anything. Do not ask them if they have used a floppy. My first Linux
distro install was out of 2 floppies (the days of RAWRITE.EXE for those who
remember).

I also have a punch card, which I show to students, as it predates me too.

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:55:43 2018
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 09:55:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <20181129141503.GB1844@nobelware.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
 <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
 <ca647b93-2e4f-f0cb-0486-87d179df1891@pinenet.com>
 <20181129141503.GB1844@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf5_sV688SYnzcUAKmXg_nq-d6Q35MUaVAyCYeyEf0Pfvbw@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 8:15 AM Iznogoud <iznogoud at nobelware.com> wrote:
>
> Some people much much younger than you and I have never used a CD for music,
> or anything. Do not ask them if they have used a floppy. My first Linux
> distro install was out of 2 floppies (the days of RAWRITE.EXE for those who
> remember).
>
> I also have a punch card, which I show to students, as it predates me too.

Grin - - - I would hope so - - --  use for computing started in use by
- - - guess who - - -
government statisticians although it says government and that's the
1890 census - - - so
if you predated that - - - - why you would be OLD - - - lol!

Dee

From eng at pinenet.com  Thu Nov 29 10:25:32 2018
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 10:25:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Learning some basics.
In-Reply-To: <20181129141503.GB1844@nobelware.com>
References: <075b4a4a-e97f-1667-a86c-6e65aa2f9808@pinenet.com>
 <20181127193010.GA7335@nobelware.com>
 <55532b90-0049-3255-5768-35093faf15c9@pinenet.com>
 <CAD+dB9B+JPiZoOUKYFx0T3+7RjZbkfwMT8OBMSm_xKbyK=44ag@mail.gmail.com>
 <76a86cfb-a396-eac1-2031-fce4088e7de5@pinenet.com>
 <20181128232235.GA3538@nobelware.com>
 <ca647b93-2e4f-f0cb-0486-87d179df1891@pinenet.com>
 <20181129141503.GB1844@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <73f4fbc0-417a-3f27-83aa-031c1e1bd3f8@pinenet.com>

I hope I don't get others mad at me for this reply-in-kind.

I took my first assembly language course using punch cards. Later I got 
an IBM punch card reader and tore it down to re-purpose. Wow, impressive 
machinery. Same with a large teletype; the dot matrix printer with large 
stepper motor and power supply were re-purposed.

As you know, I've been most active in climate related agriculture. 
Recently I saw a BBC story how urbanites now also blame food for 
climate. Of course they are right, but it is also clear having no energy 
and no food is suicide. Too many kids have no skills to improve anything 
and they want to throw out everything.

My guess is that Goodwill worker was throwing out stuff so people went 
to a retailer for Christmas. A huge store full of actual junk and they 
gut audio electronics?

I simply like how Unix and Linux work. And am delighted to learn, and 
appreciate the artistic core engineering. And I need love and kindness 
and beauty and wisdom in my life. Most kids have never seen wildflowers 
in spring or heard songbirds, either.

Iznogoud wrote:
> Some people much much younger than you and I have never used a CD for music,
> or anything. Do not ask them if they have used a floppy. My first Linux
> distro install was out of 2 floppies (the days of RAWRITE.EXE for those who
> remember).
>
> I also have a punch card, which I show to students, as it predates me too.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From rhubarbpieguy at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 09:25:29 2018
From: rhubarbpieguy at gmail.com (rhubarbpieguy)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 09:25:29 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Why is the 'mkdir -p' option necessary?
Message-ID: <b2fce885-7007-6a11-5eb3-8de74d4692bc@gmail.com>


The mkdir command requires the -p switch if creating a child directory 
with a non-existing parent.? For instance, 'mkdir /parent/child' will 
not work if /parent doesn't exist.

I'm not losing sleep over this and I doubt things will change, but it 
seems the -p action should be the default?? Is there a scenario when one 
wouldn't want to create the parent when creating the child?



From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Thu Nov 29 15:29:06 2018
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 15:29:06 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Why is the 'mkdir -p' option necessary?
In-Reply-To: <b2fce885-7007-6a11-5eb3-8de74d4692bc@gmail.com>
References: <b2fce885-7007-6a11-5eb3-8de74d4692bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+MQntLoo8DLrD9+O7q2CooW3tecEYb_zDk878XU=oD7Rg@mail.gmail.com>

I know it has saved me from accidentally making a directory in the wrong
place. If I am not in $HOME, and run mkdir scripts/shell, as opposed to
mkdir ~/scripts/shell, I would prefer the double check and failure when it
notices scripts/ does not exist. Similarly: mkdir scrpts/shell, mkdir
/ect/httpd/conf....

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 3:25 PM rhubarbpieguy <rhubarbpieguy at gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> The mkdir command requires the -p switch if creating a child directory
> with a non-existing parent.  For instance, 'mkdir /parent/child' will
> not work if /parent doesn't exist.
>
> I'm not losing sleep over this and I doubt things will change, but it
> seems the -p action should be the default?  Is there a scenario when one
> wouldn't want to create the parent when creating the child?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
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From rhayman at pureice.com  Thu Nov 29 17:50:21 2018
From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 17:50:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Why is the 'mkdir -p' option necessary?
In-Reply-To: <b2fce885-7007-6a11-5eb3-8de74d4692bc@gmail.com>
References: <b2fce885-7007-6a11-5eb3-8de74d4692bc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2622679d0ebbc89c746a7d5d0b8a26aacedb066d.camel@pureice.com>

When using mkdir in a script, mkdir gives you the option of checking
the status code returned to validate your command is doing what you
intended, where you intended, or blindly assuming you really know where
$PWD is running that script.

Put that script in your $PATH and interesting results may result
depending on where $PWD is when executing that script and how you
reference the path you are trying to create.

On Thu, 2018-11-29 at 09:25 -0600, rhubarbpieguy wrote:
> The mkdir command requires the -p switch if creating a child directory 
> with a non-existing parent.  For instance, 'mkdir /parent/child' will 
> not work if /parent doesn't exist.
> 
> I'm not losing sleep over this and I doubt things will change, but it 
> seems the -p action should be the default?  Is there a scenario when one 
> wouldn't want to create the parent when creating the child?
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 
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From jmore at starmind.org  Thu Nov 29 17:52:27 2018
From: jmore at starmind.org (Josh More)
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2018 17:52:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Why is the 'mkdir -p' option necessary?
In-Reply-To: <2622679d0ebbc89c746a7d5d0b8a26aacedb066d.camel@pureice.com>
References: <b2fce885-7007-6a11-5eb3-8de74d4692bc@gmail.com>
 <2622679d0ebbc89c746a7d5d0b8a26aacedb066d.camel@pureice.com>
Message-ID: <CAB3GUt9zr6RUn7gWZ544dbVef0sfugswPwQhBn9yyHR5WN39FA@mail.gmail.com>

It's also possible to screw up a script in a loop and make so many
directories you run out inodes on the file system.  It's a lot harder to do
that if you require the parent to exist first.

-Josh more

On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 5:50 PM r hayman <rhayman at pureice.com> wrote:

> When using mkdir in a script, mkdir gives you the option of checking the
> status code returned to validate your command is doing what you intended,
> where you intended, or blindly assuming you really know where $PWD is
> running that script.
>
> Put that script in your $PATH and interesting results may result depending
> on where $PWD is when executing that script and how you reference the path
> you are trying to create.
>
> On Thu, 2018-11-29 at 09:25 -0600, rhubarbpieguy wrote:
>
> The mkdir command requires the -p switch if creating a child directory
>
> with a non-existing parent.  For instance, 'mkdir /parent/child' will
>
> not work if /parent doesn't exist.
>
>
> I'm not losing sleep over this and I doubt things will change, but it
>
> seems the -p action should be the default?  Is there a scenario when one
>
> wouldn't want to create the parent when creating the child?
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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