From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Sep 1 08:51:19 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 13:51:19 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> References: <20180830143038.GB30546@lunn.ch> <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> Message-ID: <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> Thanks for hte info Randy. I know you and I haev talked about your router, and recently in view of that notorious attack that many systems experienced. Regarding "bridge mode" over ISP type networks. I do not even know how to go about having the ISP getting their modem to work in bridge mode. This really trully means that they have to be assigning internet addresses to the machines that pass through the bridge. Correct? I that case, do they not care that one of ther subscribers is taking up more than one IP? As an example, I use VirtualBox all the time, and maek the VMs's network be bridged to the host's NIC (ehternet or wireless adapter). That way, my main DHCP serve, which is a simple wireless route, assigns the IPs. (The benefit here is that the VMs are jsut another IP on the network, and can be accessed from any other one.) This keeps using up IPs from the DHCP server. Is this not a concern for ISPs? I will echo Randy's caution, about bridging to WANs of ISPs. You are exposing the system to the outside world in a pretty raw manner. So, it better be a router, like Randy's, or a very well-kept Linux cut for the job. From rhayman at pureice.com Sat Sep 1 09:31:30 2018 From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2018 09:31:30 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> References: <20180830143038.GB30546@lunn.ch> <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> On Sat, 2018-09-01 at 13:51 +0000, Iznogoud wrote: > Thanks for hte info Randy. I know you and I haev talked about your > router, > and recently in view of that notorious attack that many systems > experienced. > > Regarding "bridge mode" over ISP type networks. I do not even know > how to go > about having the ISP getting their modem to work in bridge mode. This > really > trully means that they have to be assigning internet addresses to the > machines that pass through the bridge. Correct? I that case, do they > not > care that one of ther subscribers is taking up more than one IP? > > As an example, I use VirtualBox all the time, and maek the VMs's > network be > bridged to the host's NIC (ehternet or wireless adapter). That way, > my main > DHCP serve, which is a simple wireless route, assigns the IPs. (The > benefit > here is that the VMs are jsut another IP on the network, and can be > accessed > from any other one.) This keeps using up IPs from the DHCP server. Is > this > not a concern for ISPs? > > I will echo Randy's caution, about bridging to WANs of ISPs. You are > exposing > the system to the outside world in a pretty raw manner. So, it better > be a > router, like Randy's, or a very well-kept Linux cut for the job. > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > Internet --- cable modem --- EdgeRouter --- LAN(s) The EdgeRouter will only get a single ISP-provided IP addr (unless I subscribe to business class, which I don't). The cable modem still gets its single IP addr but it's passed through to the EdgeRouter. The DOCSIS protocol is what cable modems use and that controls the aspects of my subscription from the ISP. The EdgeRouter's WAN port gets the single ISP-provided IP addr. The LAN side is all under my control and there are no Internet routable IP addrs on the LAN side. Behind the EdgeRouter (the LAN side), I can have as many IP addrs as I want/need, and each LAN configured in the the EdgeRouter can have it's own DHCP server serving separate subnets.? I too, use VirtualBox, and bridge the host's IP addr to the VM - that's just another NAT (network address translation) - the same type of NAT going on in the EdgeRouter that translates all of my LAN IP addrs to the single WAN IP addr. For the current Comcast cable modems, here's how you put them into bridge mode. In your browser, open up http://10.0.0.1?(this used to be 192.168.0.1, but changed with the latest cable modems, but if 10.0.0.1 doesn't work, try 192.168.0.1) The default Username/password is admin/password (how original) On the home page, ?click the "Enable" button next to "Bridge Mode:" (see attached file if it comes through) Hope that helps -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Screenshot from 2018-09-01 09-11-36.png Type: image/png Size: 32466 bytes Desc: not available URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Sep 1 10:50:35 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 15:50:35 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> References: <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> Message-ID: <20180901155035.GA5537@nobelware.com> Got it Randy; the part that your router gets the modem's IP is what I did not know. The rest is the usual home networked crap everybody does. From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 16:21:34 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 16:21:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> References: <20180830143038.GB30546@lunn.ch> <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 9:31 AM, r hayman wrote: > On Sat, 2018-09-01 at 13:51 +0000, Iznogoud wrote: > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > Internet --- cable modem --- EdgeRouter --- LAN(s) > > The EdgeRouter will only get a single ISP-provided IP addr (unless I > subscribe to business class, which I don't). The cable modem still gets its > single IP addr but it's passed through to the EdgeRouter. The DOCSIS > protocol is what cable modems use and that controls the aspects of my > subscription from the ISP. > > The EdgeRouter's WAN port gets the single ISP-provided IP addr. The LAN side > is all under my control and there are no Internet routable IP addrs on the > LAN side. > > Behind the EdgeRouter (the LAN side), I can have as many IP addrs as I > want/need, and each LAN configured in the the EdgeRouter can have it's own > DHCP server serving separate subnets. > > I too, use VirtualBox, and bridge the host's IP addr to the VM - that's just > another NAT (network address translation) - the same type of NAT going on in > the EdgeRouter that translates all of my LAN IP addrs to the single WAN IP > addr. > > For the current Comcast cable modems, here's how you put them into bridge > mode. > In your browser, open up http://10.0.0.1 (this used to be 192.168.0.1, but > changed with the latest cable modems, but if 10.0.0.1 doesn't work, try > 192.168.0.1) > The default Username/password is admin/password (how original) > On the home page, click the "Enable" button next to "Bridge Mode:" (see > attached file if it comes through) > > Hope that helps I've been searching all the networking info sites I can find and really haven't found another mention of this 2 routers in series technique. Not trying to say it doesn't or can't work just that no one else is talking about it. My situation may be a bit different. Internet --- wireless isp ---their radio (I have NO control over nor access really) --- my router --- LAN What I'm understanding you (Randy) to say is that if I installed a second router in series to the first that I would be able to have an internal LAN and also to connect to the WAN (rest of the world). This, you suggest will give me an operational lan even when my isp goes down. Would it be possible to do this by placing a managed switch (something like this:) https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cisco-Catalyst-2955C-12-switch-managed-12-ports/263350126786?epid=74142690&hash=item3d50e408c2:g:LuwAAOSwFb5aHZ2L If I need 2 routers no problem - - - 2 routers it is, but if I could get that lan even when the isp dies using a switch (managed or otherwise) that might help things here. (I am at using 6 ports here already and likely could use more soon if that matters.) (Example switch was chosen just on the basis of 'cheap' - - - suggestions are quite welcome. I am finding that besides simple plug in 2 computers into a router and maybe a printer there just isn't much information out there. This isn't some black arcane art - - - is it?) TIA Dee From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Sep 1 16:35:10 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 21:35:10 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> Message-ID: <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> I will jump in, but I am sure Randy will chime in. > > Internet --- wireless isp ---their radio (I have NO control over nor > access really) > --- my router --- LAN > This is basically the setup, even when the medium is a wire via DSL or a cable modem. But we need to be more specific. After the "wireless ISP" you have a modem of some sort, which is something that speaks the language of the radio communication. This box can also have the LAN network integrated, which is what Andrew eluded to when he said that the whole box can go dead when the ISP link goes dead. In Randy's case (and in my case), there is a second router in series with that box; in Randy's case it is the Ubiquiti (in my case it is a D-Link wired/wireless router, similar). The WAN port of the second router goes into the LAN of the integrated modem+router box. In this way, anything that happens to the modem+router will just look like a dead WAN link to the second router. The benefit is that you will not lose your LAN should that happen. It is so simple, it is not even worthy of discussion, which is why you did not find explicit instructions on this online. Most people just plug all LAN devices (or wireless) to the modem+router that the ISP provided. You did too... Randy took the extra step to make the link from the ISP to the second router be a passthrough, as if the WAN of the second router is directly connected to that ISP. You may not care to do that. I did not. Looks like that managed $30 Cisco router will work fine as your second router. I'd recommend that you spend the extra $20, get the Ubiquiti, read that PDF that Randy sent (I glanced through it), and ask Randy any questions. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Sep 1 16:39:07 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 21:39:07 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> Message-ID: <20180901213907.GC17904@nobelware.com> This may help picture the situation in series. Trace the route to umn.edu from my home desktop: iznogoud at bigpapa:~> traceroute umn.edu traceroute to umn.edu (134.84.119.107), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets 1 192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1) 10.194 ms 11.361 ms 11.557 ms 2 192.1.0.1 (192.1.0.1) 12.180 ms 12.380 ms 13.147 ms 3 stpl-dsl-gw11.stpl.qwest.net (207.109.2.11) 27.331 ms 27.768 ms 31.007 ms 4 stpl-agw1.inet.qwest.net (207.109.3.81) 31.311 ms 31.733 ms 35.064 ms ... The first 192.168.0.1 is the D-Link WAN. The second is the 192.1.0.1, which is the modem+router LAN, and this is also the gateway address of the D-Link's WAN. The D-Link's WAN has an IP like 192.1.0.2 or something like that. Say the WAN of the DSL-model+router dies. The D-Link will have the 192.0.1.* link dead, but the 192.168.0.* network will work just fine. All your computers will live in that network and will work fine. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Sep 1 16:42:46 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 21:42:46 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180901213907.GC17904@nobelware.com> References: <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213907.GC17904@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20180901214246.GD17904@nobelware.com> Opps. I made a mistake in my earlier reply. This is what I shold have said (changed WAN to LAN in one place): iznogoud at bigpapa:~> traceroute umn.edu traceroute to umn.edu (134.84.119.107), 30 hops max, 60 byte packets 1 192.168.0.1 (192.168.0.1) 10.194 ms 11.361 ms 11.557 ms 2 192.1.0.1 (192.1.0.1) 12.180 ms 12.380 ms 13.147 ms 3 stpl-dsl-gw11.stpl.qwest.net (207.109.2.11) 27.331 ms 27.768 ms 31.007 ms 4 stpl-agw1.inet.qwest.net (207.109.3.81) 31.311 ms 31.733 ms 35.064 ms ... The first 192.168.0.1 is the D-Link _LAN_. The second is the 192.1.0.1, which is the modem+router LAN, and this is also the gateway address of the D-Link's WAN. The D-Link's WAN has an IP like 192.1.0.2 or something like that. From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 16:47:44 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 16:47:44 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> References: <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 4:35 PM, Iznogoud wrote: > I will jump in, but I am sure Randy will chime in. > >> >> Internet --- wireless isp ---their radio (I have NO control over nor >> access really) >> --- my router --- LAN >> > > This is basically the setup, even when the medium is a wire via DSL or a cable > modem. But we need to be more specific. After the "wireless ISP" you have a > modem of some sort, which is something that speaks the language of the radio > communication. This box can also have the LAN network integrated, which is > what Andrew eluded to when he said that the whole box can go dead when the > ISP link goes dead. The 'radio', as it called by my isp is outside about 45 m away on a tall roof with a 3 m mast on it with the radio on the mast. The ethernet cable runs from that 'radio' to the house where there is a little box (with plugs to provide power to the 'radio') all of which I have zero control over. The first piece after this little box (and its about 3 cm x 5 cm x 12cm outside so its quite small) is my router and and and. >In Randy's case (and in my case), there is a second > router in series with that box; in Randy's case it is the Ubiquiti (in my > case it is a D-Link wired/wireless router, similar). The WAN port of the second > router goes into the LAN of the integrated modem+router box. In this way, > anything that happens to the modem+router will just look like a dead WAN > link to the second router. The benefit is that you will not lose your LAN > should that happen. > > It is so simple, it is not even worthy of discussion, which is why you did not > find explicit instructions on this online. Most people just plug all LAN > devices (or wireless) to the modem+router that the ISP provided. You did too... See above - - - - somewhat different. > > Randy took the extra step to make the link from the ISP to the second router > be a passthrough, as if the WAN of the second router is directly connected > to that ISP. You may not care to do that. I did not. > > Looks like that managed $30 Cisco router will work fine as your second > router. I'd recommend that you spend the extra $20, get the Ubiquiti, read > that PDF that Randy sent (I glanced through it), and ask Randy any questions. I'm liking the idea of 12 ports and might want 16 if I'm at it. Not that I don't want the other just that I really don't have enough ports on the router now and that switch (if that would work in place of the second router) would then scratch 2 itches, what's not to like? Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 16:53:08 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 16:53:08 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180901213907.GC17904@nobelware.com> References: <20180830162843.GA32164@nobelware.com> <1535667414.24427.11.camel@pureice.com> <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213907.GC17904@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 4:39 PM, Iznogoud wrote: > This may help picture the situation in series. Trace the route to umn.edu from > my home desktop: > > iznogoud at bigpapa:~> traceroute umn.edu This I found quite interesting so I asked my box - - -grin (I hope I'm trying the right things!!!) I picked on google.com (26 hops to get there!!!!) 1. router.asus.com (192.168.1.1) 2. host###-###.xxxxxxxxxxx.com (ip address) 3. out of IP to something else! > > The first 192.168.0.1 is the D-Link WAN. The second is the 192.1.0.1, which is > the modem+router LAN, and this is also the gateway address of the D-Link's WAN. > The D-Link's WAN has an IP like 192.1.0.2 or something like that. > > Say the WAN of the DSL-model+router dies. The D-Link will have the 192.0.1.* > link dead, but the 192.168.0.* network will work just fine. All your computers > will live in that network and will work fine. > I hadn't tried this procedure before - - - thanks for the 'education'! Thanking you for your assistance!!!!!!!!!! Dee From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Sep 1 17:09:49 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 22:09:49 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213907.GC17904@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20180901220949.GA19313@nobelware.com> You are welcome. Wait for Randy's advise; I trust his judgement. That ehternet cable that comes from the modem is the LAN of what we were calling modem+router. You would plug that into the second router's WAN and you should be in business. This long-distance wireless internet sounds exciting. Reminds be of HAM radio. Try a few things to get more info. See what the IP of one of your systems on the LAN is. Then, see if you can direct a browser to the "gateway" IP of that system on the LAN. Chances are that the LAN side of the radio has functionality similar to the cable/DSL modems. What I do know is that more ports is better than fewer... obvoiusly. But I also know that you can have one router connect to another, which you can purchase later, to augment the set of ports. You just have to configure one to let the other do the DHCP assigning of addresses, or something simple like that. From andrew at lunn.ch Sat Sep 1 17:21:39 2018 From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 00:21:39 +0200 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> > The 'radio', as it called by my isp is outside about 45 m away on a > tall roof with a > 3 m mast on it with the radio on the mast. The ethernet cable runs > from that 'radio' > to the house where there is a little box (with plugs to provide power > to the 'radio') That is probably a power over Ethernet, PoE, injector. It puts power in the Ethernet cable to power whatever is on the mast. > all of which I have zero control over. The first piece after this > little box (and its about 3 cm x 5 cm x 12cm outside so its quite > small) is my router and and and. So this first box of yours should be the center of your world: It gets its WAN IP address using a DHCP client on the WAN port, connecting to the radio up the mast. It does NAT out the 'WAN' port. It runs a DHCP server, giving out IP addresses to all you devices. It is a good idea to give each of your devices a fixed IP address. It does DNS for everything in your home network. It can relay requests to your ISP, or to 8.8.8.8. But ideally you want it to answer when somebody ask about server.home, ipad.home, laptop.home, or whatever you call your devices. What you don't want is the devices in your house directly using the DNS servers of your ISP. If your ISP falls over, it does not matter if you cannot resolve names on the internet, but you do want names for your own devices to keep working. So they need a use a local DNS server which is still running. In my case, i have a WiFi access point doing all this, running a recent OpenWRT image. It could be for your use case, the typical 4 Ethernet interfaces of a WiFi access point are not enough. But you can expand that by daisy chaining any old dumb Ethernet switch with more ports. Its this first box that does all the real work. It is not a black art, but it is something most people never need. All their devices are just clients connecting to servers on the Internet. But when you have your own NAS box, Linux desktop, media server connected to a TV, lots of embedded devices in the cellar which you are kernel hacking on, VPN connection to the mother-in-laws home for off site backup, etc, you quickly need more than just clients connecting to the Internet. Andrew From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 18:17:02 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 18:17:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180901220949.GA19313@nobelware.com> References: <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213907.GC17904@nobelware.com> <20180901220949.GA19313@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 5:09 PM, Iznogoud wrote: > You are welcome. Wait for Randy's advise; I trust his judgement. > > That ehternet cable that comes from the modem is the LAN of what we were > calling modem+router. You would plug that into the second router's WAN and > you should be in business. > > This long-distance wireless internet sounds exciting. Reminds be of HAM radio. > Try a few things to get more info. See what the IP of one of your systems on > the LAN is. Then, see if you can direct a browser to the "gateway" IP of that > system on the LAN. Chances are that the LAN side of the radio has functionality > similar to the cable/DSL modems. I've tried and I am not able to connect. The ISP has things locked real tight - - - likely because if I could access it I might also be able to up the communication throttle - grin! > > What I do know is that more ports is better than fewer... obvoiusly. > > But I also know that you can have one router connect to another, which you can > purchase later, to augment the set of ports. You just have to configure one > to let the other do the DHCP assigning of addresses, or something simple like > that. > As I know I need more ports I was asking if the managed switch would give the same functionality. It sounds like not quite so its still needing a second router AND the switch. Thanks Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 18:24:29 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 18:24:29 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> References: <1535752169.24427.20.camel@pureice.com> <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 5:21 PM, Andrew Lunn wrote: >> The 'radio', as it called by my isp is outside about 45 m away on a >> tall roof with a >> 3 m mast on it with the radio on the mast. The ethernet cable runs >> from that 'radio' >> to the house where there is a little box (with plugs to provide power >> to the 'radio') > > That is probably a power over Ethernet, PoE, injector. It puts power > in the Ethernet cable to power whatever is on the mast. I think so but as I'm not sure I'll stop there. > >> all of which I have zero control over. The first piece after this >> little box (and its about 3 cm x 5 cm x 12cm outside so its quite >> small) is my router and and and. > > So this first box of yours should be the center of your world: > > It gets its WAN IP address using a DHCP client on the WAN port, > connecting to the radio up the mast. > > It does NAT out the 'WAN' port. > > It runs a DHCP server, giving out IP addresses to all you devices. It > is a good idea to give each of your devices a fixed IP address. I have had only one static address and it is for the server. Haven't set up all the items with static mainly using dhcp and its worked so far. Part of the issue is the smart phone and the tablet and the streaming box and the 2 laptops and the other computer (all on wireless) and then there are the main box and the server and the printers. dhcp makes things a little less complicated, when it works that is - - - grin. > > It does DNS for everything in your home network. It can relay requests > to your ISP, or to 8.8.8.8. But ideally you want it to answer when > somebody ask about server.home, ipad.home, laptop.home, or whatever > you call your devices. What you don't want is the devices in your > house directly using the DNS servers of your ISP. If your ISP falls > over, it does not matter if you cannot resolve names on the internet, > but you do want names for your own devices to keep working. So they > need a use a local DNS server which is still running. So I need to set up a local dns server - - - okay - - - on the order paper (that list keeps expanding and the items aren't coming off near as fast as new ones are hitting!). > > In my case, i have a WiFi access point doing all this, running a > recent OpenWRT image. It could be for your use case, the typical 4 > Ethernet interfaces of a WiFi access point are not enough. But you can > expand that by daisy chaining any old dumb Ethernet switch with more > ports. Its this first box that does all the real work. > > It is not a black art, but it is something most people never need. All > their devices are just clients connecting to servers on the > Internet. But when you have your own NAS box, Linux desktop, media > server connected to a TV, lots of embedded devices in the cellar which > you are kernel hacking on, VPN connection to the mother-in-laws home > for off site backup, etc, you quickly need more than just clients > connecting to the Internet. I'm looking at a lot more connection points and that's why I've been looking into networking. There seems little besides the obvious and then the idea to hire a consultant for the really complex and not much in between. Thanks for the ideas!! Dee From andrew at lunn.ch Sat Sep 1 22:36:39 2018 From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 05:36:39 +0200 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> Message-ID: <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> > I have had only one static address and it is for the server. Haven't > set up all the items with static mainly using dhcp and its worked so far. We need to be careful with terminology here. What i was meaning is that the DHCP server gives out the same IP address every time to the same client. You configure the DHCP server with the clients MAC address and the IP address you want it to have. So this is not a static address, but a fixed address. Part of setting up a network is learning what all the terms mean :-) > Part of the issue is the smart phone and the tablet and the streaming box > and the 2 laptops and the other computer (all on wireless) and then there > are the main box and the server and the printers. dhcp makes things a > little less complicated, when it works that is - - - grin. Exactly. Keep with DHCP, but configure fixed addresses. > > It does DNS for everything in your home network. It can relay requests > > to your ISP, or to 8.8.8.8. But ideally you want it to answer when > > somebody ask about server.home, ipad.home, laptop.home, or whatever > > you call your devices. What you don't want is the devices in your > > house directly using the DNS servers of your ISP. If your ISP falls > > over, it does not matter if you cannot resolve names on the internet, > > but you do want names for your own devices to keep working. So they > > need a use a local DNS server which is still running. > > So I need to set up a local dns server - - - okay - - - on the order > paper (that > list keeps expanding and the items aren't coming off near as fast as new > ones are hitting!). Openwrt's dnsmasq DNS/DHCP server will do this for you, once you have configured fixed addresses. So you configure the MAC address, the IP address you want the client to get, and its name. It then has all the information it needs to give out IP addresses, and answer DNS lookups for local devices. For DNS requests it cannot answer, it asks the ISP's DNS server, or any other server you configure it with. Andrew From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 06:55:23 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 06:55:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> References: <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 10:36 PM, Andrew Lunn wrote: >> I have had only one static address and it is for the server. Haven't >> set up all the items with static mainly using dhcp and its worked so far. > > We need to be careful with terminology here. What i was meaning is > that the DHCP server gives out the same IP address every time to the > same client. You configure the DHCP server with the clients MAC > address and the IP address you want it to have. I would amend that to say that the dhcp server usually gives out the same address. Occasionally, most often because of a long machine not on period the address will be different. This occasional changing is why I have considered using static addresses for important items rather than 'fixed' addresses, as you describe just post. > > So this is not a static address, but a fixed address. > > Part of setting up a network is learning what all the terms mean :-) Every field has its arcana and verbiage and part of the joy is trying to decipher what it means and why. In the computer field the why is often not very accessible. > >> Part of the issue is the smart phone and the tablet and the streaming box >> and the 2 laptops and the other computer (all on wireless) and then there >> are the main box and the server and the printers. dhcp makes things a >> little less complicated, when it works that is - - - grin. > > Exactly. Keep with DHCP, but configure fixed addresses. > >> > It does DNS for everything in your home network. It can relay requests >> > to your ISP, or to 8.8.8.8. But ideally you want it to answer when >> > somebody ask about server.home, ipad.home, laptop.home, or whatever >> > you call your devices. What you don't want is the devices in your >> > house directly using the DNS servers of your ISP. If your ISP falls >> > over, it does not matter if you cannot resolve names on the internet, >> > but you do want names for your own devices to keep working. So they >> > need a use a local DNS server which is still running. >> >> So I need to set up a local dns server - - - okay - - - on the order >> paper (that >> list keeps expanding and the items aren't coming off near as fast as new >> ones are hitting!). > > Openwrt's dnsmasq DNS/DHCP server will do this for you, once you have > configured fixed addresses. So you configure the MAC address, the IP > address you want the client to get, and its name. It then has all the > information it needs to give out IP addresses, and answer DNS lookups > for local devices. For DNS requests it cannot answer, it asks the > ISP's DNS server, or any other server you configure it with. When I got the particular router I am using at present openwrt and leede were just in their process of rejoining so the software on the router (looks quite like dd-wrt) was actually in a version that was newer than that of openwrt. I just checked and openwrt now has a newer version. I am loath to fiddle with working and necessary equipment so changes will happen when I purchase the second router and a spare. I like to carry a spare as I'm rural and getting items always seems to be a challenge when there is non-trivial distance and all too often that need happens at very inconvenient times - - - like friday evening or early saturday morning on a holiday long weekend when nothing is too readily available. Thanks for the tips! Dee From andrew at lunn.ch Sun Sep 2 10:45:19 2018 From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:45:19 +0200 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> Message-ID: <20180902154519.GA16479@lunn.ch> > I would amend that to say that the dhcp server usually gives out the same > address. Occasionally, most often because of a long machine not on period > the address will be different. This occasional changing is why I have > considered using static addresses for important items rather than 'fixed' > addresses, as you describe just post. Yes, dhcp servers do try to give out the same IP address when dynamically allocating. But it can be annoying when an address does change. So you get a more reliable, robust and predictable setup with fixed addresses. I tend to spit the address range in 2. Dynamic is X.X.X.100-255, fixed it X.X.X.2-99. OpenWRT makes it easy to give a device a fixed address, because it will give a drop-down list of all MAC addresses it knows, along with the current assigned IP address. > I am loath to fiddle with working and necessary equipment so changes > will happen when I purchase the second router and a spare. Ideally, you should be upgrading the OpenWRT installation every so often. There are security implications when you don't. Also, over the last year or two, buffer bloat workarounds have got a lot better. So you can see significant improvements in latency under heavy load with newer OpenWRT. > I like to carry a spare as I'm rural and getting items always seems > to be a challenge when there is non-trivial distance and all too > often that need happens at very inconvenient times - - - like friday > evening or early saturday morning on a holiday long weekend when > nothing is too readily available. It can also be nice having two when doing upgrades. It can be really inconvenient when an upgrade fails, and you loose internet access, so cannot search for a fix. Generally, you can plug a laptop directly into the WAN cable and it will work, but good old RJ-45 Ethernet is slowly going the way of the parallel printer port, floppy driver, DB-9 serial port, on laptops. Andrew From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 11:32:50 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 11:32:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180902154519.GA16479@lunn.ch> References: <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> <20180902154519.GA16479@lunn.ch> Message-ID: On Sun, Sep 2, 2018 at 10:45 AM, Andrew Lunn wrote: >> I would amend that to say that the dhcp server usually gives out the same >> address. Occasionally, most often because of a long machine not on period >> the address will be different. This occasional changing is why I have >> considered using static addresses for important items rather than 'fixed' >> addresses, as you describe just post. > > Yes, dhcp servers do try to give out the same IP address when > dynamically allocating. But it can be annoying when an address does > change. So you get a more reliable, robust and predictable setup with > fixed addresses. > > I tend to spit the address range in 2. Dynamic is X.X.X.100-255, fixed > it X.X.X.2-99. OpenWRT makes it easy to give a device a fixed address, > because it will give a drop-down list of all MAC addresses it knows, > along with the current assigned IP address. > I had dd-wrt on a previous router and that was the split that was used there as well. >> I am loath to fiddle with working and necessary equipment so changes >> will happen when I purchase the second router and a spare. > > Ideally, you should be upgrading the OpenWRT installation every so > often. There are security implications when you don't. Also, over the > last year or two, buffer bloat workarounds have got a lot better. So > you can see significant improvements in latency under heavy load with > newer OpenWRT. > >> I like to carry a spare as I'm rural and getting items always seems >> to be a challenge when there is non-trivial distance and all too >> often that need happens at very inconvenient times - - - like friday >> evening or early saturday morning on a holiday long weekend when >> nothing is too readily available. > > It can also be nice having two when doing upgrades. It can be really > inconvenient when an upgrade fails, and you loose internet access, so > cannot search for a fix. Generally, you can plug a laptop directly > into the WAN cable and it will work, but good old RJ-45 Ethernet is > slowly going the way of the parallel printer port, floppy driver, DB-9 > serial port, on laptops. > I couldn't even use the internet if I change my router! My isp needs to be the one to enter my mac address for the connected equipment. There was a suggestion that this could be self administered on-line but I was abused of the idea by the isp staff. I think it less than great when for what it would cost for a 300 Mbit service in urban areas I would be paying more for a 15 Mbit service. The most irksome is when the isp tries to convince me that I don't 'need' faster service! >rant off! Regards Dee From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 13:58:00 2018 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 13:58:00 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question Message-ID: Iznogoud writes: > What I do know is that more ports is better than fewer... obvoiusly. Point 8 in the following says: "the more possessions the more anxiety" https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/pirkei-avot-ethics-of-the-fathers-5/ And too much salt or water is deadly. Other parts of the thread are better... I ordered a little EdgeRouter now. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. http://webEbenezer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chapinjeff at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 14:05:16 2018 From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 14:05:16 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Point 8 also says 'the more women, the more witchcraft', so perhaps a grain or two of salt is applicable when dealing with outdated 'wisdom' On Sun, Sep 2, 2018, 1:55 PM Brian Wood wrote: > Iznogoud writes: > > > What I do know is that more ports is better than fewer... obvoiusly. > > Point 8 in the following says: "the more possessions the more anxiety" > > https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/pirkei-avot-ethics-of-the-fathers-5/ > And too much salt or water is deadly. > > Other parts of the thread are better... I ordered a little > EdgeRouter now. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - Enjoying programming again. > http://webEbenezer > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Sep 2 15:24:02 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 20:24:02 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> References: <1535758245.24427.28.camel@pureice.com> <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> Message-ID: <20180902202402.GB18021@nobelware.com> > > We need to be careful with terminology here. What i was meaning is > that the DHCP server gives out the same IP address every time to the > same client. You configure the DHCP server with the clients MAC > address and the IP address you want it to have. > > So this is not a static address, but a fixed address. > I will mention this for those who have not experienced it. I use a Linksys as a "bridge" from my 1st level office to the wireless access point that is in the attic. The thing acting as a bridge has 4 RJ45s, which connect various wired (ethernet) devices to the upstairs access point (router), which does the DHCP. Because of the linksys acting as a bridge, one cannot rely on the MAC address seen by the access point to assign static addresses (it only sees one MAC address, the WAN-side of the bridge). I am not sure of all the intrinsics, but this is what happens with my setup. It does not adversely affect the operation of those devices, so I do not care to find a better solution. I thought I'd share. From andrew at lunn.ch Sun Sep 2 15:44:11 2018 From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 22:44:11 +0200 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180902202402.GB18021@nobelware.com> References: <1535759073.24427.30.camel@pureice.com> <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> <20180902202402.GB18021@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20180902204411.GA21260@lunn.ch> > I will mention this for those who have not experienced it. I use a Linksys as > a "bridge" from my 1st level office to the wireless access point that is in > the attic. The thing acting as a bridge has 4 RJ45s, which connect various > wired (ethernet) devices to the upstairs access point (router), which does > the DHCP. Because of the linksys acting as a bridge, one cannot rely on the > MAC address seen by the access point to assign static addresses (it only > sees one MAC address, the WAN-side of the bridge). I am not sure of all the > intrinsics, but this is what happens with my setup. It does not adversely > affect the operation of those devices, so I do not care to find a better > solution. I thought I'd share. It sounds like you need to turn your 'bridge' into a bridge :-) I think you have it performing NAT on its 'WAN' port connecting to the rest of your network. This would explain the single MAC address. Turn this off. Merge the WAN port with the other 4 RJ45 in one bridge. Ethernet frames will then be 'bridged' between ports. It will also make it a little faster. It should be able to bridge in hardware, but it will be doing NAT in software. With NAT turned off, you then have one big flat network where everything sees everything. Your one central DHCP server gives out IP addresses to everybody. You only want one NAT in your network, connected to your ISP link. NAT is evil, but a necessary evil for ISP's since we have run out of public IPv4 addresses. However inside your private network, the 16581375 IP addresses in 10.0.0/8 should be enough for your house. Andrew From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Sep 2 15:45:50 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 20:45:50 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180902204550.GA19022@nobelware.com> > > Point 8 also says 'the more women, the more witchcraft', so perhaps a grain > or two of salt is applicable when dealing with outdated 'wisdom' > Point 8 starts with: "He used to say." (Gotta love that part.) This one, and probably all other points, come with a wheelbarrow full of salt. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Sep 2 15:52:12 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 20:52:12 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: <20180902204411.GA21260@lunn.ch> References: <20180901135119.GA763@nobelware.com> <1535812290.13287.25.camel@pureice.com> <20180901213510.GB17904@nobelware.com> <20180901222139.GA9776@lunn.ch> <20180902033639.GC9776@lunn.ch> <20180902202402.GB18021@nobelware.com> <20180902204411.GA21260@lunn.ch> Message-ID: <20180902205212.GB19022@nobelware.com> > > It sounds like you need to turn your 'bridge' into a bridge :-) > > I think you have it performing NAT on its 'WAN' port connecting to the > rest of your network. This would explain the single MAC address. Turn > this off. Merge the WAN port with the other 4 RJ45 in one > bridge. Ethernet frames will then be 'bridged' between ports. It will > also make it a little faster. It should be able to bridge in hardware, > but it will be doing NAT in software. > yes. It is the wireless MAC, which should be in the LAN side, in this case. But you are correct. > With NAT turned off, you then have one big flat network where > everything sees everything. Your one central DHCP server gives out IP > addresses to everybody. > Yup. I do not know what happens to the WAN port, but I am guessing it is as you said above. > You only want one NAT in your network, connected to your ISP link. NAT > is evil, but a necessary evil for ISP's since we have run out of > public IPv4 addresses. However inside your private network, the > 16581375 IP addresses in 10.0.0/8 should be enough for your house. Yup. There are other reasons why one may want NAT taking place, but mainly, the problem of IPv4 address space is the reason. As was discussed earlier, there is no exposure of the internal (LAN) IPs to the outside given the un-routable networks. For some strange reason I stuck with the 192 and never used the shorter number unroutable address-spaces. Not sure why... Bad habbits die hard. From daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 10:18:41 2018 From: daniel.armbrust.list at gmail.com (Dan Armbrust) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 10:18:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] recommended audio player? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20fcc00f-3991-1e3c-ff7d-e5299ed86f28@gmail.com> Best one I've found in the spirit of Winamp: https://www.clementine-player.org/ On 08/14/2018 01:58 AM, Mike Miller wrote: > Way back I used to use WinAmp.? It managed very large numbers of files quite handily.? > Then I moved everything to Linux and I never found something that worked as well for > me.? I'd like to try again. What are you guys recommending these days?? Back in 2010 I > asked about it and Amarok was recommended by some, but it was seen as possibly on the > way out.? There must be something great by now, right? > > Best, > Mike > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:17:12 2018 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 12:17:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question Message-ID: Iznogoud writes: >> >> Point 8 also says 'the more women, the more witchcraft', so perhaps a grain >> or two of salt is applicable when dealing with outdated 'wisdom' >> This is often translated as "the more wives, the more witchcraft." I should have linked to a different site. > > Point 8 starts with: "He used to say." (Gotta love that part.) > I'm not sure what you are getting at. > > This one, and probably all other points, come with a wheelbarrow full of salt. Point 3 is: "Be careful in your relations with the government; for they draw no man close to themselves except for their own interests. They appear as friends when it is to their advantage, but they do not stand by a man in his time of stress." If we had stuck with "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." we would be better off. Instead we are umpteen trillion in debt and want to spend a lot more?! Brian https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chapinjeff at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:18:56 2018 From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 13:18:56 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess I was objecting to the rediculous, outdated, and sexist advice. Wives or women doesn't seem to matter when the problem is the idea that females (wives or not) are magical sources of problems -- unless, of course, they mean that more witchcraft is better than less. When I see advice (sexist or not) regarding witchcraft or other made up topics, I tend to also wonder what other basic facts they had wrong. It's quiet hard to take advice that seems to think fairy tales are real too seriously. What's next? Tips to improve the chances of an application to Hogwarts? There are definitely cases where more is better than less -- for most people things like access to healthy food, midern medical treatments, and modern education, and access exercise equal rights, more is better. I have a feeling that most would like to keep the list free form religion and politics, but I would be willing to have a polite dialogue off list if you really would like to continue these topics. On Sep 3, 2018 12:22 PM, "Brian Wood" wrote: Iznogoud writes: >> >> Point 8 also says 'the more women, the more witchcraft', so perhaps a grain >> or two of salt is applicable when dealing with outdated 'wisdom' >> This is often translated as "the more wives, the more witchcraft." I should have linked to a different site. > > Point 8 starts with: "He used to say." (Gotta love that part.) > I'm not sure what you are getting at. > > This one, and probably all other points, come with a wheelbarrow full of salt. Point 3 is: "Be careful in your relations with the government; for they draw no man close to themselves except for their own interests. They appear as friends when it is to their advantage, but they do not stand by a man in his time of stress." If we had stuck with "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." we would be better off. Instead we are umpteen trillion in debt and want to spend a lot more?! Brian https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota tclug-list at mn-linux.org http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lkateley at kateley.com Mon Sep 3 14:55:59 2018 From: lkateley at kateley.com (Linda Kateley) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2018 14:55:59 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <755fadb0-7c74-01d3-4e0e-01235ce21190@kateley.com> I actually am a witch so... lk On 9/3/18 1:18 PM, Jeff Chapin wrote: > I guess I was objecting to the rediculous, outdated, and sexist > advice. Wives or women doesn't seem to matter when the problem is the > idea that females (wives or not) are magical sources of problems -- > unless, of course, they mean that more witchcraft is better than less. > > When I see advice (sexist or not) regarding witchcraft or other made > up topics, I tend to also wonder what other basic facts they had > wrong. It's quiet hard to take advice that seems to think fairy tales > are real too seriously. What's next? Tips to improve the chances of an > application to Hogwarts? > > There are definitely cases where more is better than less -- for most > people things like access to healthy food, midern medical treatments, > and modern education, and access exercise equal rights, more is better. > > > I have a feeling that most would like to keep the list free form > religion and politics, but I would be willing to have a polite > dialogue off list if you really would like to continue these topics. > > On Sep 3, 2018 12:22 PM, "Brian Wood" > wrote: > > Iznogoud writes: > >> > >> Point 8 also says 'the more women, the more witchcraft', so > perhaps a grain > >> or two of salt is applicable when dealing with outdated 'wisdom' > >> > > This is often translated as "the more wives, the more witchcraft." > I should have linked to a different site. > > > > > Point 8 starts with: "He used to say." (Gotta love that part.) > > > I'm not sure what you are getting at. > > > > > This one, and probably all other points, come with a wheelbarrow > full of salt. > > Point 3 is: > "Be careful in your relations with the government; for they draw > no man close to themselves except for their own interests. They > appear as friends when it is to their advantage, but they do not > stand by a man in his time of stress." > > If we had stuck with "Ask not what your country can do for > you, but what you can do for your country." we would be > better off.? Instead we are umpteen trillion in debt and want > to spend a lot more?! > > > Brian > https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From marc at e-skinner.net Tue Sep 4 09:49:40 2018 From: marc at e-skinner.net (Marc Skinner) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 09:49:40 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] recommended audio player? In-Reply-To: <20fcc00f-3991-1e3c-ff7d-e5299ed86f28@gmail.com> References: <20fcc00f-3991-1e3c-ff7d-e5299ed86f28@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0f4f9bf7-0c83-cf8f-e7ed-f82c4f6254c8@e-skinner.net> I use xmms and lollypop. xmms is like winamp - simple and too the point lollypop is more of a full music manager On 09/03/2018 10:18 AM, Dan Armbrust wrote: > Best one I've found in the spirit of Winamp: > > https://www.clementine-player.org/ > > > On 08/14/2018 01:58 AM, Mike Miller wrote: >> Way back I used to use WinAmp.? It managed very large numbers of files >> quite handily. Then I moved everything to Linux and I never found >> something that worked as well for me.? I'd like to try again. What are >> you guys recommending these days?? Back in 2010 I asked about it and >> Amarok was recommended by some, but it was seen as possibly on the way >> out.? There must be something great by now, right? >> >> Best, >> Mike >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From sraun at fireopal.org Tue Sep 4 15:24:50 2018 From: sraun at fireopal.org (Scott Raun) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 15:24:50 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] recommended audio player? In-Reply-To: <0f4f9bf7-0c83-cf8f-e7ed-f82c4f6254c8@e-skinner.net> References: <20fcc00f-3991-1e3c-ff7d-e5299ed86f28@gmail.com> <0f4f9bf7-0c83-cf8f-e7ed-f82c4f6254c8@e-skinner.net> Message-ID: <20180904202450.GA25275@fireopal.org> On my Windows box at work, I've been using MusicBee. https://getmusicbee.com/ I'm still dithering about what I want to use on the home Linux laptop. On Tue, Sep 04, 2018 at 09:49:40AM -0500, Marc Skinner wrote: > I use xmms and lollypop. > > xmms is like winamp - simple and too the point > > lollypop is more of a full music manager > > > On 09/03/2018 10:18 AM, Dan Armbrust wrote: > >Best one I've found in the spirit of Winamp: > > > >https://www.clementine-player.org/ > > > > > >On 08/14/2018 01:58 AM, Mike Miller wrote: > >>Way back I used to use WinAmp.? It managed very large numbers of files > >>quite handily. Then I moved everything to Linux and I never found > >>something that worked as well for me.? I'd like to try again. What are > >>you guys recommending these days?? Back in 2010 I asked about it and > >>Amarok was recommended by some, but it was seen as possibly on the way > >>out.? There must be something great by now, right? > >> > >>Best, > >>Mike > >>_______________________________________________ > >>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > >>tclug-list at mn-linux.org > >>http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > >tclug-list at mn-linux.org > >http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -- Scott Raun sraun at fireopal.org From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 21:03:22 2018 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 21:03:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question Message-ID: Brian Wood writes: > > Other parts of the thread are better... I ordered a little > EdgeRouter now. I got this, but have a problem with it. I did some initial configuration and rebooted the router. I'm not able to ping anything except for the router -- 192.168.1.1. I tried to disable the firewall on the router, but that seems to not be an option. You can only delete rules. So I deleted a rule, but that didn't help. I'm not sure how to proceed. Thanks for any help. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust. http://webEbenezer -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 21:32:26 2018 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2018 21:32:26 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 9:03 PM Brian Wood wrote: > > I got this, but have a problem with it. I did some initial > configuration and rebooted the router. I'm not able to > ping anything except for the router -- 192.168.1.1. I tried > to disable the firewall on the router, but that seems to > not be an option. You can only delete rules. So I deleted > a rule, but that didn't help. I'm not sure how to proceed. > Thanks for any help. > > I have a cheap DSL modem and wasn't able to figure out how to put that into bridge mode. I was thinking that is an optional step, but not sure now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhayman at pureice.com Sat Sep 8 22:44:14 2018 From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 22:44:14 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1536464654.3045.10.camel@pureice.com> On Sat, 2018-09-08 at 21:03 -0500, Brian Wood wrote: > > Brian Wood writes: > > > > Other parts of the thread are better... I ordered a little > > EdgeRouter now. > > I got this, but have a problem with it.? I did some initial? > configuration and rebooted the router.? I'm not able to? > ping anything except for the router -- 192.168.1.1.? I tried? > to disable the firewall on the router, but that seems to > not be an option.? You can only delete rules.? So I deleted > a rule, but that didn't help.? I'm not sure how to proceed.?? > Thanks for any help. > > > Brian > Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust. > http://webEbenezer > > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list You need to be more specific to what you are trying to accomplish and the specific rules you have implemented to try to accomplish said rules -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rhayman at pureice.com Sat Sep 8 22:42:12 2018 From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 22:42:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1536464532.3045.8.camel@pureice.com> On Sat, 2018-09-08 at 21:32 -0500, Brian Wood wrote: > On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 9:03 PM Brian Wood > wrote: > > > > I got this, but have a problem with it.? I did some initial? > > configuration and rebooted the router.? I'm not able to? > > ping anything except for the router -- 192.168.1.1.? I tried? > > to disable the firewall on the router, but that seems to > > not be an option.? You can only delete rules.? So I deleted > > a rule, but that didn't help.? I'm not sure how to proceed.?? > > Thanks for any help. > > > > > I have a cheap DSL modem and wasn't able to figure out > how to put that into bridge mode.? I was thinking that is an > optional step, but not sure now. > > DO NOT put your DSL modem into bridge mode until you fully understand > and lock down your firewall (edge router) > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From woodbrian77 at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 14:25:22 2018 From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 14:25:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] networking question Message-ID: r hayman writes: > > DO NOT put your DSL modem into bridge mode until you fully understand > and lock down your firewall (edge router) Thanks for the warning. This is a test network. There's the modem, router and an old PC on the network. I can ping the router from the Windows system, but that's it. I'll try getting some ideas from the company that makes the router. Brian Ebenezer Enterprises - "America isn't great because America is powerful. America is powerful because America is great." Ben Shapiro at dailywire.com http://webEbenezer.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 06:54:02 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:54:02 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question Message-ID: Greetings I have had it working before but I can't seem to get things right this time. I want to have two different copies of debian on one box with the choice of which when I boot in. Wanting to have available both debian stable (9.5 at present) and debian testing (10). This is so I can experiment with software - - - adding it and if huge errors result or are caused - - - no real biggie because its not a main working box (like the server or my main computer). Doing this because I really have gotten to hate having a main box down for even a few days because software that I loaded and installed caused me to bork the system (I've done this more than a few times!!! grin - - -but 'learning' isn't always a barrel of fun!!) So I've installed both of these systems (more than once each) they have their own partitions for everything but boot and efi yet I'm only seeing one system available on grub (depending upon the last install as to which). So I'm doing something wrong!! I tried using grub updating tools (# os-prober) still no joy. The web pages that I'm finding seem to be for an older version of grub and, as usual, I'm finding man pages are like reading cuneiform (which I find unintelligible). This is likely something quite simple but I'm just not seeing it - - - please - - - some ideas/pointers? TIA Dee From mr.chew.baka at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 08:01:40 2018 From: mr.chew.baka at gmail.com (Bob De Mars) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 08:01:40 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why not just run a hypervisor, and run this as a VM? On 9/14/2018 6:54 AM, o1bigtenor wrote: > Greetings > > I have had it working before but I can't seem to get things right this time. > > I want to have two different copies of debian on one box with the > choice of which when I boot in. > Wanting to have available both debian stable (9.5 at present) and > debian testing (10). This is so I can experiment with software - - - > adding it and if huge errors result or are caused - - - no real biggie > because its not a main working box (like the server or my main > computer). Doing this because I really have gotten to hate having a > main box down for even a few days because software that I loaded and > installed caused me to bork the system (I've done this more than a few > times!!! grin - - -but 'learning' isn't always a barrel of fun!!) > > So I've installed both of these systems (more than once each) they > have their own partitions for everything but boot and efi yet I'm only > seeing one system available on grub (depending upon the last install > as to which). So I'm doing something wrong!! I tried using grub > updating tools (# os-prober) still no joy. The web pages that I'm > finding seem to be for an older version of grub and, as usual, I'm > finding man pages are like reading cuneiform (which I find > unintelligible). > > This is likely something quite simple but I'm just not seeing it - - - > please - - - some ideas/pointers? > > TIA > > Dee > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From cdf123 at cdf123.net Fri Sep 14 09:08:07 2018 From: cdf123 at cdf123.net (Chris Frederick) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 09:08:07 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a grub-legacy setup on a usb drive. I've dual booted windows and multiple linux distros long enough to not trust anyone with the boot partition, so I leave it unmount/unplug when installing or upgrading. It's saved me a lot of hassle with things like this. As long as you don't have anything weird or fancy going on, and your bios is sane, it works. Haven't tried it with a grub-2 setup, but it should work. Once you have a stable setup and everything works, it's just a matter of copying over the latest kernels. On 09/14/18 06:54, o1bigtenor wrote: > Greetings > > I have had it working before but I can't seem to get things right this time. > > I want to have two different copies of debian on one box with the > choice of which when I boot in. > Wanting to have available both debian stable (9.5 at present) and > debian testing (10). This is so I can experiment with software - - - > adding it and if huge errors result or are caused - - - no real biggie > because its not a main working box (like the server or my main > computer). Doing this because I really have gotten to hate having a > main box down for even a few days because software that I loaded and > installed caused me to bork the system (I've done this more than a few > times!!! grin - - -but 'learning' isn't always a barrel of fun!!) > > So I've installed both of these systems (more than once each) they > have their own partitions for everything but boot and efi yet I'm only > seeing one system available on grub (depending upon the last install > as to which). So I'm doing something wrong!! I tried using grub > updating tools (# os-prober) still no joy. The web pages that I'm > finding seem to be for an older version of grub and, as usual, I'm > finding man pages are like reading cuneiform (which I find > unintelligible). > > This is likely something quite simple but I'm just not seeing it - - - > please - - - some ideas/pointers? > > TIA > > Dee > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 09:21:00 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 09:21:00 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 9:08 AM, Chris Frederick wrote: > I have a grub-legacy setup on a usb drive. I've dual booted windows and multiple linux distros long > enough to not trust anyone with the boot partition, so I leave it unmount/unplug when installing oruseable > upgrading. It's saved me a lot of hassle with things like this. As long as you don't have anything > weird or fancy going on, and your bios is sane, it works. > > Haven't tried it with a grub-2 setup, but it should work. Once you have a stable setup and > everything works, it's just a matter of copying over the latest kernels. This is the direction that I think I'm headed. I'm on grub 2.xx (NOT legacy) and my last install was testing. Any ideas on the text for adding stable into the mix? Should I do another install this time to stable and first copying the information from grub in the now present testing install? Thanking you for your assistance. Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 09:18:11 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 09:18:11 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 8:01 AM, Bob De Mars wrote: > Why not just run a hypervisor, and run this as a VM? > There are some subtle differences when systems are run in a vm and I want to eliminate those variables. These variations were rather dramatically pointed out when I was investigating containers which is why I implemented a test bed system. I am really tired of primary use systems that are borked up because a dev team thinks their method of doing things is wonderful and that 'wonderful' conflicts with pre-existing and then I get to troubleshoot AND fix. On my server I'm running stable and my system I'm running testing. Your idea would often be usable but sorry, not in this case. > > On 9/14/2018 6:54 AM, o1bigtenor wrote: >> >> Greetings >> >> I have had it working before but I can't seem to get things right this >> time. >> >> I want to have two different copies of debian on one box with the >> choice of which when I boot in. >> Wanting to have available both debian stable (9.5 at present) and >> debian testing (10). This is so I can experiment with software - - - >> adding it and if huge errors result or are caused - - - no real biggie >> because its not a main working box (like the server or my main >> computer). Doing this because I really have gotten to hate having a >> main box down for even a few days because software that I loaded and >> installed caused me to bork the system (I've done this more than a few >> times!!! grin - - -but 'learning' isn't always a barrel of fun!!) >> >> So I've installed both of these systems (more than once each) they >> have their own partitions for everything but boot and efi yet I'm only >> seeing one system available on grub (depending upon the last install >> as to which). So I'm doing something wrong!! I tried using grub >> updating tools (# os-prober) still no joy. The web pages that I'm >> finding seem to be for an older version of grub and, as usual, I'm >> finding man pages are like reading cuneiform (which I find >> unintelligible). >> >> This is likely something quite simple but I'm just not seeing it - - - >> please - - - some ideas/pointers? >> >> TIA >> >> Dee >> _______________________________________________ >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list From iznogoud at nobelware.com Fri Sep 14 10:18:54 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:18:54 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180914151854.GA28761@nobelware.com> For what it is worth, I second the hypervisor idea. That is what those things are for. If you are going to be a sysadmin for your own business, you cannot shy away from being bold in your learning and investment in learning new things, or _current_ things, I might add. Thank me later. I am not too competent with GRUB2, but I am sure I can dig some info for you. The general idea with GRUB is that it really is something like a bootloader and a primitive OS. In general, all you have to do is edit the "grub.conf" file, wherever it lives (typically on a partition like /dev/sda1 that is typically mounted as /boot on a standalone system). You put an entry for a particular syste that you want to boot and then it just makes it appear on the menu at bootime. But the powerful thing is that you can just walk into a command prompt like a boss and take care of matters from there. This is how I rescue systems, tweak them, etc. The tricky thing is to be able to tell GRUB for each entry in that boot menu where the kernel is. I keep a kernel handy in /dev/sda1 so that I can just boot, and then throw an "init=/bin/bash" as an argument and I get a prompt on the root filesystem that I choose (you give another option for that). Invest some time in learning the booting sequence of Linux. Then learn soem about GRUB. Then experiment (preferably with a VM in VirtualBox or similar), because those boot faster and do not break the system in general. Send us your "grub.conf" that is found in /boot/grub of your main system. I will tweak it for you. From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 11:16:41 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 11:16:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: <20180914151854.GA28761@nobelware.com> References: <20180914151854.GA28761@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 10:18 AM, Iznogoud wrote: > For what it is worth, I second the hypervisor idea. That is what those > things are for. If you are going to be a sysadmin for your own business, > you cannot shy away from being bold in your learning and investment in > learning new things, or _current_ things, I might add. Thank me later. Ah ja - -- -that being bold is what has put my butt in a crack and caused extreme pain far too many times already!!! That's why I've set up a testing system. Yes I have used VMs (virtualbox being the current champion) but that idea comes with some serious system overheads. So I looked at lxd (set up using snapd because I'm on Debian). Well the dev teams for both lxd AND snapd truely believe that the newest thing is ALWAYS the best. Me, I want something that is going to work. One of the joys I imported with snapd/ lxd is the daily update/upgrade miasma. When something is working there is just about zero need to update or upgrade things unless there is a security issue. Nevertheless these teams require updates, if updates are not allowed - - -- well my system has internally done a reboot 4 separate times now on the anniversary of its scheduled update/upgrade date. Even better it is not possible to just remove lxd - - - - there is a 6 or 7 step process that must be followed BEFORE lxd can be removed and then, and only then can snapd be removed. I won't apologize for it but I choose what happens on my system and not someone else and when things are being done because the enhance the finances of someone/s else well then I get grumpy and most often if there isn't enough benefit for me - - - well that gets dumped!! I have also spent 2 and 3 weeks at a time trying to get things working and after realizing that I have done a stupid fixing things. I would rather not have my use systems down that long so want a test bed - - - bare iron one in fact. (It still seems like an incredible rarity in linux systems to use multiple graphics cards and more than 3 monitors and yet my system has been that way for well over 5 years - - - that's been a right royal pita more than once. I would like even more monitor space just the $ aren't there or I would get that asap - - - the added space makes for a lot better work flow when on has it ans is using programs that can handle the space not email programs sadly!)) > > I am not too competent with GRUB2, but I am sure I can dig some info > for you. The general idea with GRUB is that it really is something like > a bootloader and a primitive OS. In general, all you have to do is edit > the "grub.conf" file, wherever it lives (typically on a partition like > /dev/sda1 that is typically mounted as /boot on a standalone system). > You put an entry for a particular syste that you want to boot and then > it just makes it appear on the menu at bootime. But the powerful thing > is that you can just walk into a command prompt like a boss and take > care of matters from there. This is how I rescue systems, tweak them, > etc. Stuff I haven't done very much of at all. I remember having to do some things in grub 0.97 but that was a very long time ago but it also seems to be the most common instruction set when looking for information with there being precious little up for grub 2.xx. > > The tricky thing is to be able to tell GRUB for each entry in that boot > menu where the kernel is. I keep a kernel handy in /dev/sda1 so that I > can just boot, and then throw an "init=/bin/bash" as an argument and I > get a prompt on the root filesystem that I choose (you give another > option for that). There are 20+ partitions on the hard disk so both systems have everything separate except /boot and /efi (whatever that partition is called). > > Invest some time in learning the booting sequence of Linux. Then learn > soem about GRUB. Then experiment (preferably with a VM in VirtualBox > or similar), because those boot faster and do not break the system in > general. > > Send us your "grub.conf" that is found in /boot/grub of your main system. > I will tweak it for you. This is what I hadn't found yet. What I had found to date was the idea of editing /etc/defaults/grub and there is precious little in there that would help what I want. I will have all 3 systems up and see if I can set up things myself and if I run into some more snags - - -well - - - I'll be back! Thanks Dee From iznogoud at nobelware.com Fri Sep 14 11:59:17 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 16:59:17 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: <20180914151854.GA28761@nobelware.com> Message-ID: <20180914165917.GA32601@nobelware.com> > > This is what I hadn't found yet. What I had found to date was the idea of > editing /etc/defaults/grub and there is precious little in there that would help > what I want. I will have all 3 systems up and see if I can set up things myself > and if I run into some more snags - - -well - - - I'll be back! > If it makes you feel any better, I hate that Slackware now advises that users do not directly edit grub.conf, and use their own "discovery" and mangement of GRUB scripts. But I always tweak the grub.conf myself. From rhayman at pureice.com Fri Sep 14 14:06:01 2018 From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:06:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1536951961.30543.39.camel@pureice.com> Grub, Grub2, or your UEFI BIOS (if you have one) can all provide a menu for what to boot. I hear your pain. I am currently running Debian-based Ubuntu 16.04.5 LTS on a Dell XPS 15 9650 4K LCD with a Dell TB16 dock - all is fully functional except dimming the external 34" or 40" 4K dock attached monitor. It took me a bit to get this all working and Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS replaced Unity with Gnome 3 which also removed franctional scaling of the display(s) - only providing for 100% or 200%, and I currently run at 150% or 162%. Gnome 3 also screws up my virtual workspace preferences and talk on the forums is that this hardware combination is borked on 18.04.1, so I'm right there with you. I will make a dd replica of my 16.04.5 SDD onto one or more external SDDs and play with upgrading them in place. Grub2 should automatically add the new external SDD to the boot menu. On my Ubuntu desktop workstation, I have space and some open SATA ports that I can simply plug a fresh SDD into and do a fresh install. I would let Grub2 update the MBR of the existing bootable partition. I have had little to no issues with Grub or Grub2, so I continue to use that for my boot menu and boot options. It sounds like you have split a single HDD/SDD into multiple partitions for your different OS versions. Do you have the ability to have separate disks for each OS version? That shouldn't be needed, but one never knows. I always use separate disks when I do these things. On Fri, 2018-09-14 at 06:54 -0500, o1bigtenor wrote: > Greetings > > I have had it working before but I can't seem to get things right > this time. > > I want to have two different copies of debian on one box with the > choice of which when I boot in. > Wanting to have available both debian stable (9.5 at present) and > debian testing (10). This is so I can experiment with software - - - > adding it and if huge errors result or are caused - - - no real > biggie > because its not a main working box (like the server or my main > computer). Doing this because I really have gotten to hate having a > main box down for even a few days because software that I loaded and > installed caused me to bork the system (I've done this more than a > few > times!!! grin - - -but 'learning' isn't always a barrel of fun!!) > > So I've installed both of these systems (more than once each) they > have their own partitions for everything but boot and efi yet I'm > only > seeing one system available on grub (depending upon the last install > as to which). So I'm doing something wrong!! I tried using grub > updating tools (# os-prober) still no joy. The web pages that I'm > finding seem to be for an older version of grub and, as usual, I'm > finding man pages are like reading cuneiform (which I find > unintelligible). > > This is likely something quite simple but I'm just not seeing it - - > - > please - - - some ideas/pointers? > > TIA > > Dee > _______________________________________________ > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota > tclug-list at mn-linux.org > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Fri Sep 14 14:02:20 2018 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:02:20 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question Message-ID: > > There are 20+ partitions on the hard disk so both systems have everything > separate except /boot and /efi (whatever that partition is called). so boot is shared? if so, eek. apt-get update on one will throw out kernels still expected by the other. and similar ugly contention for maintaining grub. this would explain why grub couldn't find the other OS. advises that users do not directly edit grub.conf, and use their own > "discovery" and mangement > of GRUB scripts. > > But I always tweak the grub.conf myself. > grub.conf is regenerated, and your mods lost, whenever a new kernel is installed. i know, i hated it when i first started learning grub2. your mods belong in /etc/default/grub and /etc/grub.d/40_custom. copy 40_custom to 07_custom and stuff in there will precede, and thus be what boots by default. put in there entries which boot via the kernel and initrd in /, those softlinks are updated whenever a new kernel is installed. then either regenerate grub.conf, or i confess i then edit the same mods into grub.conf as well, it's just plain far quicker. also if you're interested in how to boot multiple installs all from the same partition, just ask. -- this concludes test 42 of big bang inflation dynamics. in the advent of an actual universe, further instructions will be provided. 000000000000000000000042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Fri Sep 14 14:12:22 2018 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 14:12:22 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question Message-ID: > > There are 20+ partitions on the hard disk so both systems have everything >> separate except /boot and /efi (whatever that partition is called). > > > so boot is shared? if so, eek. apt-get update on one will throw out > kernels still expected by the other. and similar ugly contention for > maintaining grub. this would explain why grub couldn't find the other OS. > sharing /boot actually can work *if* the 2 grubs are in separate subdirectories, and if the kernels are different enough that updates from one don't affect the other. still tho it may work, it will likely lead to significant confusion. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:21:34 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:21:34 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 2:02 PM, gregrwm wrote: >> There are 20+ partitions on the hard disk so both systems have everything >> separate except /boot and /efi (whatever that partition is called). > > > so boot is shared? if so, eek. apt-get update on one will throw out > kernels still expected by the other. and similar ugly contention for > maintaining grub. this would explain why grub couldn't find the other OS. OK that's why I've not been able to get this working! > >> advises that users do not directly edit grub.conf, and use their own >> "discovery" and mangement >> of GRUB scripts. >> >> But I always tweak the grub.conf myself. > > > grub.conf is regenerated, and your mods lost, whenever a new kernel is > installed. i know, i hated it when i first started learning grub2. your > mods belong in /etc/default/grub and /etc/grub.d/40_custom. copy 40_custom > to 07_custom and stuff in there will precede, and thus be what boots by > default. put in there entries which boot via the kernel and initrd in /, > those softlinks are updated whenever a new kernel is installed. then either > regenerate grub.conf, or i confess i then edit the same mods into grub.conf > as well, it's just plain far quicker. > > also if you're interested in how to boot multiple installs all from the same > partition, just ask. Bingo - -- - I've been looking for this and can't find any guides nor ideas - - - so - - - please? (Supplicatory posture entered! (grin!)) Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:23:12 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:23:12 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 2:12 PM, gregrwm wrote: >>> There are 20+ partitions on the hard disk so both systems have everything >>> separate except /boot and /efi (whatever that partition is called). >> >> >> so boot is shared? if so, eek. apt-get update on one will throw out >> kernels still expected by the other. and similar ugly contention for >> maintaining grub. this would explain why grub couldn't find the other OS. > > > sharing /boot actually can work *if* the 2 grubs are in separate > subdirectories, and if the kernels are different enough that updates from > one don't affect the other. still tho it may work, it will likely lead to > significant confusion. I had separate /boot partitions and that didn't seem to help so I removed one and had one /efi and one /boot for both but still no joy. Therefore the question(s). Thanking you for your ideas!!! Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 15:28:51 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 15:28:51 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: <1536951961.30543.39.camel@pureice.com> References: <1536951961.30543.39.camel@pureice.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 2:06 PM, r hayman wrote: > Grub, Grub2, or your UEFI BIOS (if you have one) can all provide a menu for > what to boot. Maybe I'm looking in totally the wrong place. I do have UEFI bios and grub2. If I could ever understand man pages I might be able to do something with UEFI but - -- alas its cuneiform to me. > > I hear your pain. I am currently running Debian-based Ubuntu 16.04.5 LTS on > a Dell XPS 15 9650 4K LCD with a Dell TB16 dock - all is fully functional > except dimming the external 34" or 40" 4K dock attached monitor. It took me > a bit to get this all working and Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS replaced Unity with > Gnome 3 which also removed franctional scaling of the display(s) - only > providing for 100% or 200%, and I currently run at 150% or 162%. Gnome 3 > also screws up my virtual workspace preferences and talk on the forums is > that this hardware combination is borked on 18.04.1, so I'm right there with > you. Don't you love upgrades that reduce functionality? > > I will make a dd replica of my 16.04.5 SDD onto one or more external SDDs > and play with upgrading them in place. Grub2 should automatically add the > new external SDD to the boot menu. > > On my Ubuntu desktop workstation, I have space and some open SATA ports that > I can simply plug a fresh SDD into and do a fresh install. I would let Grub2 > update the MBR of the existing bootable partition. > > I have had little to no issues with Grub or Grub2, so I continue to use that > for my boot menu and boot options. > > It sounds like you have split a single HDD/SDD into multiple partitions for > your different OS versions. Do you have the ability to have separate disks > for each OS version? That shouldn't be needed, but one never knows. I always > use separate disks when I do these things. I would use separate disks if that were an option but there is room for only one drive in the chassis. I bought this sy stem cheap because I need someplace to test software BEFORE I install on my primary systems this way I won't be destroying my main systems with new software rather just a testing system and if things work - - -well then they get moved to their permanent homes and if they don't - - - HOSED! (and without my main systems getting polluted!) Sorry - - its a good idea but not possible this time. Thanks for the ideas! Dee From iznogoud at nobelware.com Fri Sep 14 15:42:08 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 20:42:08 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180914204208.GA8240@nobelware.com> > > grub.conf is regenerated, and your mods lost, whenever a new kernel is > installed. i know, i hated it when i first started learning grub2. your > mods belong in /etc/default/grub and /etc/grub.d/40_custom. copy 40_custom > to 07_custom and stuff in there will precede, and thus be what boots by > default. put in there entries which boot via the kernel and initrd in /, > those softlinks are updated whenever a new kernel is installed. then > either regenerate grub.conf, or i confess i then edit the same mods into > grub.conf as well, it's just plain far quicker. > I confess, I do not upgrade kernels often, and I do non of that automatically as you are assuming. Manual everything, system map, etc, etc, and a new entry in grub.conf all the time. Yes, I should be /etc/default/grub-ing, but I do not. > also if you're interested in how to boot multiple installs all from the > same partition, just ask. > Dee needs to know how to do that. I do this all the time, with multiple OSs and lots of tweaks. From iznogoud at nobelware.com Fri Sep 14 15:48:10 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 20:48:10 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: <1536951961.30543.39.camel@pureice.com> Message-ID: <20180914204810.GB8240@nobelware.com> > > I would use separate disks if that were an option but there is room for only > one drive in the chassis. I bought this sy stem cheap because I need someplace > to test software BEFORE I install on my primary systems this way I won't be > destroying my main systems with new software rather just a testing system and > if things work - - -well then they get moved to their permanent homes > and if they > don't - - - HOSED! (and without my main systems getting polluted!) > > Sorry - - its a good idea but not possible this time. > You do not wnat to use VMs (the safest and easiest), you do not want to hack your way to boot multiple systems on your own. You seem to want to do this within the context of how distributions ship out, especially the ones that are meant for the starting Linux user who is looking for convenience. (Methinks) if you want to be doing this kind of testing with different disks, why close the chassis at all... Keep a SATA and a power wire out and keep plugging and unplugging. Do this until you have learned all you need to know. Maybe this is the next best piece of advise I can offer to using VMs. When in college in the 90s, my frankensteined PC had almost all components resting on eachother inside an open chassis for which I did not have the screws. My favourite setup was that of a friend, who had the system hanging on the wall with nails, like artwork. From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 17:40:37 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:40:37 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: <20180914204208.GA8240@nobelware.com> References: <20180914204208.GA8240@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:42 PM, Iznogoud wrote: >> >> grub.conf is regenerated, and your mods lost, whenever a new kernel is >> installed. i know, i hated it when i first started learning grub2. your >> mods belong in /etc/default/grub and /etc/grub.d/40_custom. copy 40_custom >> to 07_custom and stuff in there will precede, and thus be what boots by >> default. put in there entries which boot via the kernel and initrd in /, >> those softlinks are updated whenever a new kernel is installed. then >> either regenerate grub.conf, or i confess i then edit the same mods into >> grub.conf as well, it's just plain far quicker. >> > > I confess, I do not upgrade kernels often, and I do non of that automatically > as you are assuming. Manual everything, system map, etc, etc, and a new entry > in grub.conf all the time. Sorry - - - -you're now commenting on someone else's words not the op. > > Yes, I should be /etc/default/grub-ing, but I do not. > > >> also if you're interested in how to boot multiple installs all from the >> same partition, just ask. >> > > Dee needs to know how to do that. I do this all the time, with multiple OSs > and lots of tweaks. What I can find is a lot of pages written from 2003 to about 2012. The few that are newer (newest 2015 which is still ancient by 'modern' standards - - - I think I was running debian 8 at that time) are talking about windows + a couple different distros. It seems that what I'm doing is something quite different. So there just isn't any information that I can find (looking through about 100 pages of 'supposed' links). Any pointers as to where to look? Regards Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 17:52:14 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 17:52:14 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: <20180914204810.GB8240@nobelware.com> References: <1536951961.30543.39.camel@pureice.com> <20180914204810.GB8240@nobelware.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Iznogoud wrote: >> >> I would use separate disks if that were an option but there is room for only >> one drive in the chassis. I bought this sy stem cheap because I need someplace >> to test software BEFORE I install on my primary systems this way I won't be >> destroying my main systems with new software rather just a testing system and >> if things work - - -well then they get moved to their permanent homes >> and if they >> don't - - - HOSED! (and without my main systems getting polluted!) >> >> Sorry - - its a good idea but not possible this time. >> > It seems I have caused you some serious pain - --don't think I meant to do that! You seem to think that I am some kind of programmer by trade. I am only someone who has used a computer as a tool for a long time. That is quite different from someone who uses a computer to produce tools. > You do not wnat to use VMs (the safest and easiest), you do not want to hack > your way to boot multiple systems on your own. You seem to want to do this > within the context of how distributions ship out, especially the ones that are > meant for the starting Linux user who is looking for convenience. (Methinks) If I knew how to hack a way to boot multiple systems I would have done it. The procedure that I had used in the past for multi-booting isn't working and with quite a bit more than a trivial amount of time I cannot find any ideas on how to 'hack my way to boot multiple systems' . So I then asked for help here where there has been help proffered in the past. If you would rather not answer a direct question - - - fine - - -but please don't play around with the question and infer what you don't know (my background for one!). > > if you want to be doing this kind of testing with different disks, why close > the chassis at all... Keep a SATA and a power wire out and keep plugging and > unplugging. Do this until you have learned all you need to know. Maybe this is > the next best piece of advise I can offer to using VMs. > > When in college in the 90s, my frankensteined PC had almost all components > resting on eachother inside an open chassis for which I did not have the screws. > My favourite setup was that of a friend, who had the system hanging on the wall > with nails, like artwork. I guess that this kind of working environment would appeal to some, sorry - - - not to me. Thanking you for your ideas. Regards Dee From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Fri Sep 14 18:09:47 2018 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:09:47 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question Message-ID: > > > also if you're interested in how to boot multiple installs all from the > same > > partition, just ask. > > Bingo - -- - I've been looking for this probably best i just pass you a link to my post here -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From 42dch42 at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 18:48:42 2018 From: 42dch42 at gmail.com (harv) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 18:48:42 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5b9c48dd.1c69fb81.e57e2.107a@mx.google.com> On Fri, 14 Sep 2018 10:19:03 -0500 tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org opined: > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 06:54:02 -0500 > From: o1bigtenor > To: TCLUG Mailing List > Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Greetings > > I have had it working before but I can't seem to get things right this time. > > I want to have two different copies of debian on one box with the > choice of which when I boot in. > Wanting to have available both debian stable (9.5 at present) and > debian testing (10). This is so I can experiment with software - - - > adding it and if huge errors result or are caused - - - no real biggie > because its not a main working box (like the server or my main > computer). Doing this because I really have gotten to hate having a > main box down for even a few days because software that I loaded and > installed caused me to bork the system (I've done this more than a few > times!!! grin - - -but 'learning' isn't always a barrel of fun!!) > > So I've installed both of these systems (more than once each) they > have their own partitions for everything but boot and efi yet I'm only > seeing one system available on grub (depending upon the last install > as to which). So I'm doing something wrong!! I tried using grub > updating tools (# os-prober) still no joy. The web pages that I'm > finding seem to be for an older version of grub and, as usual, I'm > finding man pages are like reading cuneiform (which I find > unintelligible). > > This is likely something quite simple but I'm just not seeing it - - - > please - - - some ideas/pointers? > > TIA > > Dee > > > ------------------------------ Going off of memory here and it ain't what it used to be but try this, When installing first OS, install grub to disk with /boot mounted. Then install second OS with grub installed to root partition with /boot not mounted. Then copy images from second OS's /boot folder to /boot partition and copy paste menu stanza from /etc/grub/grub30 to etc/grub/grub30 in first OS. Don't forget to run grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg to update the boot menu after adding menu stanza above. Or thinking about it reverse the order of installs above and grub will probably find the other OS on its own. hth harv From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 21:59:41 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 21:59:41 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 6:09 PM, gregrwm wrote: >> > also if you're interested in how to boot multiple installs all from the >> > same >> > partition, just ask. >> >> Bingo - -- - I've been looking for this > > > probably best i just pass you a link to my post here Thank you! Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Fri Sep 14 22:01:23 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2018 22:01:23 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: <5b9c48dd.1c69fb81.e57e2.107a@mx.google.com> References: <5b9c48dd.1c69fb81.e57e2.107a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 14, 2018 at 6:48 PM, harv <42dch42 at gmail.com> wrote: >> ------------------------------ > Going off of memory here and it ain't what it used to be but try this, > When installing first OS, install grub to disk with /boot mounted. > Then install second OS with grub installed to root partition with /boot > not mounted. > Then copy images from second OS's /boot folder to /boot partition and > copy paste menu stanza from /etc/grub/grub30 to etc/grub/grub30 in > first OS. > Don't forget to run grub-mkconfig -o /boot/grub/grub.cfg > to update the boot menu after adding menu stanza above. > > Or thinking about it reverse the order of installs above and grub will > probably find the other OS on its own. > Thank you - - - - I do believe that I have some work to do. Will likely take me a few days to try the solution (too many things happening!). Regards Dee From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sat Sep 15 14:43:34 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 19:43:34 +0000 Subject: [tclug-list] Boot setup question In-Reply-To: References: <5b9c48dd.1c69fb81.e57e2.107a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <20180915194334.GA25170@nobelware.com> Sorry I played with the question" sir. I will offer one more possible way of booting (temporarily) with your rootfs being a differenct partition on a system with one drive (and a myrida partitions). Can you get a "live CD" of the distro you are using that matches the kernel version? Usually the CD from which you boot to install is just that. The live CD may allow you to just boot with the default kernel, and all you have to do is specify the rootfs (and possibly other things). I do this with the Slackware installation disks all the time, as in, not often but with predictable and consistent results. Easiest way to boot an existing system. It is almost the same number of steps when botting with GRUB (1 or 2), interrupting the GRUB boot at the menu, and editing the kernel options prior to issuing the final boot command. Good luck! From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 18:20:16 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 18:20:16 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] How do I ?????? Message-ID: Greetings I bought myself a refurbished computer that had MS Win10 Pro on a 500 GB drive and it has NO optical drive, would need to change the bezel to add in an optical drive so I'm trying to set up without using my 'normal' install technique. Had another 1TB drive that I put Debian testing (10) on another system. Removed from that system and installed into the HP PRODesk (G1 SFF if that makes a difference). Can't seem to get the bios to recognize the hdd. System is uefi and the drive was set up using gparted and there is an efi partition. Any idea on how to kick the system in the pants so that it will boot off the hard drive? (Maybe I need to put SystemRescueDisk on a usb stick and then prod this and poke that to get things to work? (I haven't done this before so a point to what I would be prodding and poking would help.) I'm hoping that this is one of those real 'a$$hat' kind of questions. TIA Dee From o1bigtenor at gmail.com Sun Sep 30 18:22:01 2018 From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 18:22:01 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: How do I ?????? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please remove previous - ---a serious spelling error!!!! ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: o1bigtenor Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 6:20 PM Subject: How do I ?????? To: TCLUG Mailing List Greetings I bought myself a refurbished computer that had MS Win10 Pro on a 500 GB drive and it has NO optical drive, would need to change the bezel to add in an optical drive so I'm trying to set up without using my 'normal' install technique. Had another 1TB drive that I put Debian testing (10) on another system. Removed from that system and installed into the HP PRODesk (G1 SFF if that makes a difference). Can't seem to get the bios to recognize the hdd. System is uefi and the drive was set up using gparted and there is an efi partition. Any idea on how to kick the system in the pants so that it will boot off the hard drive? (Maybe I need to put SystemRescueDisk on a usb stick and then prod this and poke that to get things to work? (I haven't done this before so a point to what I would be prodding and poking would help.) (Real egg on face now!! - - -edit to change is to isn't) I'm hoping that this isn't one of those real 'a$$hat' kind of questions. TIA Dee From tclug1 at whitleymott.net Sun Sep 30 21:57:33 2018 From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 21:57:33 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: How do I ?????? Message-ID: in any situation where booting the hard disk is amis i reach for a thumb drive and boot that. usually the latest ubuntu iso will boot most anything that isn't bleeding edge iron, tho yes there are situations where you need to get an extra driver, and if so it can be put on the same thumb drive. hopefully that will do it, else you get busy with googling. from the iso you can simply use grub-install (ubuntu) or grub2-mkconfig (centos) to install a bootstrap, or do a sparkling fresh complete install, without wiping out whatever you might want to keep if you know what you're doing, and once it's bootable you can setup dual- or multi-booting, even all within the same partition, per our prior exchange. while indeed most of this deviates from the "normal" install instructions, you can find the howto's, or keep asking if uncertain. On Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 6:22 PM, o1bigtenor wrote: > Please remove previous - ---a serious spelling error!!!! > > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: o1bigtenor > Date: Sun, Sep 30, 2018 at 6:20 PM > Subject: How do I ?????? > To: TCLUG Mailing List > > Greetings > > I bought myself a refurbished computer that had MS Win10 Pro on a 500 > GB drive and it has NO optical drive, would need to change the bezel > to add in an optical drive so I'm trying to set up without using my > 'normal' install technique. > > Had another 1TB drive that I put Debian testing (10) on another > system. Removed from that system and installed into the HP PRODesk (G1 > SFF if that makes a difference). > > Can't seem to get the bios to recognize the hdd. System is uefi and > the drive was set up using gparted and there is an efi partition. > > Any idea on how to kick the system in the pants so that it will boot > off the hard drive? > > > (Maybe I need to put SystemRescueDisk on a usb stick and then prod > this and poke that to get things to work? (I haven't done this before > so a point to what I would be prodding and poking would help.) > > (Real egg on face now!! - - -edit to change is to isn't) > I'm hoping that this isn't one of those real 'a$$hat' kind of questions. > > TIA > > Dee > -- this concludes test 42 of big bang inflation dynamics. in the advent of an actual universe, further instructions will be provided. 000000000000000000000042 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From iznogoud at nobelware.com Sun Sep 30 22:19:35 2018 From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud) Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2018 22:19:35 -0500 Subject: [tclug-list] Fwd: How do I ?????? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20181001031935.GA4829@nobelware.com> Greg, I thought went we went through this discussion a couple of weeks ago he still found the process confusing. I think your "summary" (let's call it is spot on, but he needs more explicit instructions. I know I am being of no help right now.