From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Sat Feb  1 14:17:57 2020
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 14:17:57 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microcontroller board prototyping.
In-Reply-To: <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>

Which is used when soldering on SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS or SMCs which is the very thing I asked you about and you refused to answer.



> On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:55 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:
> 
> I learned more about the new "Solder Pastes" today. DigiKey has a nice tutorial from "Locktite." And "Adafruit" has a little infosheet if you follow the DigiKey links.
> 
> Maybe you should learn about it, too.
> 
> Iznogoud wrote:
>> Let's not make a fuss of this, but I am with Ryan. The idea is that there may
>> be better ways to do what you want, and that is why question were asked.
>> 
>> I went back to the obvious and searched google:
>> https://www.thomasnet.com/minnesota/soldering-services-76361203-1.html
>> 
>> Perhaps you can find an individual to do it through a craigslist.org posting.
>> 
>> Sounds like you have exhausted the info offered on this list, Rick.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From eng at pinenet.com  Sat Feb  1 15:51:19 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 15:51:19 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microcontroller board prototyping.
In-Reply-To: <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <570541f8-840d-560a-2530-3dfc6717a9ec@pinenet.com>

About 1992 two good friends started a Locktite bolt coating factory 
around here. The curing oven was about 40 feet long with a conveyor belt 
running the length. This is a critical advancement also included in 
Locktite solder paste circuits. Instead of a very hot solder iron tip 
and a cool target joint, a process temperature profile is followed on 
all solder paste joint materials and bonding is improved.

One very cold winter day I was overseeing the oven while others handled 
the bolts. The furnace went off and I almost had to fight with others 
trying to bypass the safety power switch with a screwdriver. The oven 
ran on propane and I was harshly insulted by saying propane doesn't 
evaporate in serious cold and low tank levels; the safety switch did its 
job. The next day the propane company guy affirmed the problem.

I already have some friendly people to discuss this technology with. 
Let's just close out this thread.


Ryan Coleman wrote:
> Which is used when soldering on SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS or SMCs which is the very thing I asked you about and you refused to answer.
>
>
>
>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:55 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:
>>
>> I learned more about the new "Solder Pastes" today. DigiKey has a nice tutorial from "Locktite." And "Adafruit" has a little infosheet if you follow the DigiKey links.
>>
>> Maybe you should learn about it, too.
>>
>> Iznogoud wrote:
>>> Let's not make a fuss of this, but I am with Ryan. The idea is that there may
>>> be better ways to do what you want, and that is why question were asked.
>>>
>>> I went back to the obvious and searched google:
>>> https://www.thomasnet.com/minnesota/soldering-services-76361203-1.html
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can find an individual to do it through a craigslist.org posting.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you have exhausted the info offered on this list, Rick.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From wdtj at yahoo.com  Sat Feb  1 17:06:13 2020
From: wdtj at yahoo.com (Wayne Johnson)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 23:06:13 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [tclug-list] Microcontroller board prototyping.
In-Reply-To: <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <132184577.299470.1580598373089@mail.yahoo.com>

Sorry, I missed the original post. Let me take a stab at some questions.

I have been designing and building my own microcontroller boards for over 15 years as a hobby.
Design capture with tinycad. tinycad.com.PCB design with frepcb. freepcb.com.PCB manufacture with oshpark.com.  Decent price, not too slow.
I would stay away from the smaller gauge parts unless you like to work with microscopes.  Solder paste is difficult without a solder mask, just use 30 ga solder and the smallest solder iron tip you can find.
Sparkfun.com has lots of parts, breakout boards, and tutorials.

--- 
Wayne Johnson,             | There are two kinds of people: Those 
                           | who say to God, "Thy will be done," 
                           | and those to whom God says, "All right, 
                           | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
 

    On Saturday, February 1, 2020, 2:18:46 PM CST, Ryan Coleman <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:  
 
 Which is used when soldering on SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS or SMCs which is the very thing I asked you about and you refused to answer.



> On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:55 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:
> 
> I learned more about the new "Solder Pastes" today. DigiKey has a nice tutorial from "Locktite." And "Adafruit" has a little infosheet if you follow the DigiKey links.
> 
> Maybe you should learn about it, too.
> 
> Iznogoud wrote:
>> Let's not make a fuss of this, but I am with Ryan. The idea is that there may
>> be better ways to do what you want, and that is why question were asked.
>> 
>> I went back to the obvious and searched google:
>> https://www.thomasnet.com/minnesota/soldering-services-76361203-1.html
>> 
>> Perhaps you can find an individual to do it through a craigslist.org posting.
>> 
>> Sounds like you have exhausted the info offered on this list, Rick.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
  
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200201/76f66326/attachment.htm>

From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Sat Feb  1 17:28:14 2020
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 17:28:14 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microcontroller board prototyping.
In-Reply-To: <570541f8-840d-560a-2530-3dfc6717a9ec@pinenet.com>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
 <570541f8-840d-560a-2530-3dfc6717a9ec@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <42B9D41B-D9D0-43E5-A50B-276807F5C094@cwis.biz>

Jesus, Rick, if you didn’t respond to every message that comes in the thread would have been dead.

Again, you still haven’t answered the very question posed back to you. 


> On Feb 1, 2020, at 3:51 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:
> 
> About 1992 two good friends started a Locktite bolt coating factory around here. The curing oven was about 40 feet long with a conveyor belt running the length. This is a critical advancement also included in Locktite solder paste circuits. Instead of a very hot solder iron tip and a cool target joint, a process temperature profile is followed on all solder paste joint materials and bonding is improved.
> 
> One very cold winter day I was overseeing the oven while others handled the bolts. The furnace went off and I almost had to fight with others trying to bypass the safety power switch with a screwdriver. The oven ran on propane and I was harshly insulted by saying propane doesn't evaporate in serious cold and low tank levels; the safety switch did its job. The next day the propane company guy affirmed the problem.
> 
> I already have some friendly people to discuss this technology with. Let's just close out this thread.
> 
> 
> Ryan Coleman wrote:
>> Which is used when soldering on SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS or SMCs which is the very thing I asked you about and you refused to answer.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:55 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I learned more about the new "Solder Pastes" today. DigiKey has a nice tutorial from "Locktite." And "Adafruit" has a little infosheet if you follow the DigiKey links.
>>> 
>>> Maybe you should learn about it, too.
>>> 
>>> Iznogoud wrote:
>>>> Let's not make a fuss of this, but I am with Ryan. The idea is that there may
>>>> be better ways to do what you want, and that is why question were asked.
>>>> 
>>>> I went back to the obvious and searched google:
>>>> https://www.thomasnet.com/minnesota/soldering-services-76361203-1.html
>>>> 
>>>> Perhaps you can find an individual to do it through a craigslist.org posting.
>>>> 
>>>> Sounds like you have exhausted the info offered on this list, Rick.
>>>> 
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From eng at pinenet.com  Sat Feb  1 18:34:30 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sat, 1 Feb 2020 18:34:30 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microcontroller board prototyping.
In-Reply-To: <132184577.299470.1580598373089@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
 <132184577.299470.1580598373089@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0b708f97-94e6-c0bd-e608-c6757e7b7a39@pinenet.com>

It would serve me well for you to start reading from the beginning of 
this thread. It has already become dominated by every issue except the 
first question, "does anybody know of a Twin Cities prototyping shop to 
help solder a microcontroller board?"

In about 1987 I made a wire wrapped counter board, connected by RS232, 
for a photomultiplier tube that counted photons measuring 
chemiluminescent immunoassays. Determined the reaction kinetics for 
"Homogeneous Ratiometric Chemiluminescent ImmunoAssays." AIDS testing 
was important then, and armies of lab technicians handling radioisotopes 
wasn't cool. Then I said to hell with it and loved raising my family. 
People argued when I said integrated circuits were going to greatly 
improve. Kind of like pushing fiber optics in 1982, "Who ever heard of 
glass wires?"

Many years ago I liked the PCB breadboards from "Protostack," and 
purchased some. Their website has become very nice over the years.

https://protostack.com.au/

Full specs are on their amazing web site. And the boards are beautifully 
masked.

Their stackable breadboard PCB design easily accepts any DIP packages. I 
just don't have high confidence anybody can solder 100 pins in 
perfectly. But I can squirt a syringe into a hole.



Wayne Johnson wrote:
> Sorry, I missed the original post. Let me take a stab at some questions.
>
> I have been designing and building my own microcontroller boards for
> over 15 years as a hobby.
>
> Design capture with tinycad. tinycad.com.
> PCB design with frepcb. freepcb.com.
> PCB manufacture with oshpark.com.  Decent price, not too slow.
>
> I would stay away from the smaller gauge parts unless you like to work
> with microscopes.  Solder paste is difficult without a solder mask, just
> use 30 ga solder and the smallest solder iron tip you can find.
>
> Sparkfun.com has lots of parts, breakout boards, and tutorials.
>
> ---
> Wayne Johnson,             | There are two kinds of people: Those
>                            | who say to God, "Thy will be done,"
>                            | and those to whom God says, "All right,
>                            | then, have it your way." --C.S. Lewis
>
>
> On Saturday, February 1, 2020, 2:18:46 PM CST, Ryan Coleman
> <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:
>
>
> Which is used when soldering on SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS or SMCs which
> is the very thing I asked you about and you refused to answer.
>
>
>
>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:55 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com
> <mailto:eng at pinenet.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I learned more about the new "Solder Pastes" today. DigiKey has a nice
> tutorial from "Locktite." And "Adafruit" has a little infosheet if you
> follow the DigiKey links.
>>
>> Maybe you should learn about it, too.
>>
>> Iznogoud wrote:
>>> Let's not make a fuss of this, but I am with Ryan. The idea is that
> there may
>>> be better ways to do what you want, and that is why question were asked.
>>>
>>> I went back to the obvious and searched google:
>>> https://www.thomasnet.com/minnesota/soldering-services-76361203-1.html
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can find an individual to do it through a craigslist.org
> posting.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you have exhausted the info offered on this list, Rick.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From bunjee50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  2 09:07:44 2020
From: bunjee50 at gmail.com (Danny Johnson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 09:07:44 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microcontroller board prototyping.
In-Reply-To: <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>

I'm sending a message that has nothing to do with what you all are
discussing.
My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?
Please advise.

On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 2:18 PM Ryan Coleman <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:

> Which is used when soldering on SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS or SMCs which is
> the very thing I asked you about and you refused to answer.
>
>
>
> > On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:55 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:
> >
> > I learned more about the new "Solder Pastes" today. DigiKey has a nice
> tutorial from "Locktite." And "Adafruit" has a little infosheet if you
> follow the DigiKey links.
> >
> > Maybe you should learn about it, too.
> >
> > Iznogoud wrote:
> >> Let's not make a fuss of this, but I am with Ryan. The idea is that
> there may
> >> be better ways to do what you want, and that is why question were asked.
> >>
> >> I went back to the obvious and searched google:
> >> https://www.thomasnet.com/minnesota/soldering-services-76361203-1.html
> >>
> >> Perhaps you can find an individual to do it through a craigslist.org
> posting.
> >>
> >> Sounds like you have exhausted the info offered on this list, Rick.
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> >> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> >> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Danny Johnson
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/898ef728/attachment.htm>

From kjh at flyballdogs.com  Sun Feb  2 09:16:45 2020
From: kjh at flyballdogs.com (Kathryn Hogg)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 09:16:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Microcontroller board prototyping.
In-Reply-To: <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
 <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1700679b360.27ef.d9e72cc82473ef4a48cb929ada0282b6@flyballdogs.com>

Yggdrasil

On February 2, 2020 9:14:30 AM Danny Johnson <bunjee50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm sending a message that has nothing to do with what you all are discussing.
> My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?
> Please advise.
>
>
> On Sat, Feb 1, 2020 at 2:18 PM Ryan Coleman <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:
> Which is used when soldering on SURFACE MOUNT COMPONENTS or SMCs which is 
> the very thing I asked you about and you refused to answer.
>
>
>
>> On Jan 31, 2020, at 11:55 PM, Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:
>>
>> I learned more about the new "Solder Pastes" today. DigiKey has a nice 
>> tutorial from "Locktite." And "Adafruit" has a little infosheet if you 
>> follow the DigiKey links.
>>
>> Maybe you should learn about it, too.
>>
>> Iznogoud wrote:
>>> Let's not make a fuss of this, but I am with Ryan. The idea is that there may
>>> be better ways to do what you want, and that is why question were asked.
>>>
>>> I went back to the obvious and searched google:
>>> https://www.thomasnet.com/minnesota/soldering-services-76361203-1.html
>>>
>>> Perhaps you can find an individual to do it through a craigslist.org posting.
>>>
>>> Sounds like you have exhausted the info offered on this list, Rick.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> --
>
> Danny Johnson
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/b51649dc/attachment.htm>

From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Sun Feb  2 10:05:16 2020
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 10:05:16 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
 <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7627185-EEA6-40C7-887E-82D88173BCB3@cwis.biz>

Danny,

Welcome to the group! 

> My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?

For what purpose?  Each variant, in my experience, is geared toward a different want and need. What are you hoping to get out of your installation?


—
Ryan

> On Feb 2, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Danny Johnson <bunjee50 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I'm sending a message that has nothing to do with what you all are discussing.
> My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?
> Please advise.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/ff1a8794/attachment-0001.htm>

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Sun Feb  2 10:06:52 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 10:06:52 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Now: Distro question Was microcontroller board . . .
In-Reply-To: <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
 <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf58DRGO5AH_=bmnT6SUXf+Q9u2xo2zNLwQxbjDERBBKk=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 9:14 AM Danny Johnson <bunjee50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sending a message that has nothing to do with what you all are discussing.
> My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?
> Please advise.
>actully

I would qualify that question in a similar category with one like: what is the
most beautiful hair color for a woman.

Both could be argued for interminable amounts of time with no real
conclusions to be reached.

Sorry - - - - but its not considered good form to hijack a thread and
as this particular thread has already had enough rancor I chose to
edit the subject for you.

Now if you were to specify what you actually want to do with your distro and
what your background is and how much you're prepared to learn etc - - - -
then it might be possible to create a short list. Otherwise its like shooting
a paint gun randomly outside in the dark and expecting to bag a trophy deer.

Regards

From woodbrian77 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  2 11:32:22 2020
From: woodbrian77 at gmail.com (Brian Wood)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:32:22 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
Message-ID: <CABWFOjtdYk=O8BDBuogm5s-ykfJ54rwCktHNXx5e7XsKz=mumw@mail.gmail.com>

> Danny,
>
> Welcome to the group!
>
>> My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?
>
> For what purpose?  Each variant, in my experience, is
> geared toward a different want and need. What are you
> hoping to get out of your installation?
>
  Shalom

I've found Manjaro and openSUSE to be helpful the past
few years. Prior to that I used Fedora and some others.

About 4 years ago I ported my on-line code generator
from Linux to FreeBSD.  Doing so led to an over 10%
smaller binary and reduced the number of lines of code
in my server.   I had been using Linux' epoll, but
switched to FreeBSD's kqueue.

Have you heard of  Distrowatch.com?  That site might be
able to help you find a distro.  Distrowatch also switched
from Linux to FreeBSD:
https://www.reddit.com/r/freebsd/comments/eodhit/switching_distrowatch_over_to_freebsd_ama/



Brian
Ebenezer Enterprises - In G-d we trust.
https://github.com/Ebenezer-group/onwards
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/0144f588/attachment.htm>

From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Sun Feb  2 14:07:27 2020
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:07:27 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <CABWFOjtdYk=O8BDBuogm5s-ykfJ54rwCktHNXx5e7XsKz=mumw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjtdYk=O8BDBuogm5s-ykfJ54rwCktHNXx5e7XsKz=mumw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A02FEA65-1646-478A-9C0C-A3958B6EEA30@cwis.biz>

I will remind the list, and Mr. Wood, that BSD is not Linux.

> On Feb 2, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> About 4 years ago I ported my on-line code generator
> from Linux to FreeBSD.  Doing so led to an over 10%
> smaller binary and reduced the number of lines of code
> in my server.   I had been using Linux' epoll, but
> switched to FreeBSD's kqueue.  

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/d9e7aeb3/attachment.htm>

From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Sun Feb  2 14:57:21 2020
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 14:57:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <A02FEA65-1646-478A-9C0C-A3958B6EEA30@cwis.biz>
References: <CABWFOjtdYk=O8BDBuogm5s-ykfJ54rwCktHNXx5e7XsKz=mumw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A02FEA65-1646-478A-9C0C-A3958B6EEA30@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+Pjs26L_bc2H9DQPW+wcCzALTik646ncc8JbYBxcuTfHA@mail.gmail.com>

I will also notify the list that Mr. Wood was recently removed from another
LUG list, due to his repeated bad behavior, which included, but was not
limited to:
1) turning everything into an excuse to spam his software,
2) inability to keep the topic to Linux,
3) repeatedly, and needlessly dragging his religion into the list,
4) his inability to correct those behaviors despite repeated requests from
multiple members both on and off list -- and his repeated and continued
refusal to discuss his behavior.

It's interesting to note that this had no impact on his behavior here....

On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 2:08 PM Ryan Coleman <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:

> I will remind the list, and Mr. Wood, that BSD is not Linux.
>
> On Feb 2, 2020, at 11:32 AM, Brian Wood <woodbrian77 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> About 4 years ago I ported my on-line code generator
> from Linux to FreeBSD.  Doing so led to an over 10%
> smaller binary and reduced the number of lines of code
> in my server.   I had been using Linux' epoll, but
> switched to FreeBSD's kqueue.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/5ae2bcad/attachment.htm>

From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Sun Feb  2 16:07:48 2020
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 16:07:48 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+Pjs26L_bc2H9DQPW+wcCzALTik646ncc8JbYBxcuTfHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABWFOjtdYk=O8BDBuogm5s-ykfJ54rwCktHNXx5e7XsKz=mumw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A02FEA65-1646-478A-9C0C-A3958B6EEA30@cwis.biz>
 <CAJt84+Pjs26L_bc2H9DQPW+wcCzALTik646ncc8JbYBxcuTfHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1266BBF5-F034-46ED-8040-F8EE565F537F@cwis.biz>

I suspect our list operators are no longer active.

> On Feb 2, 2020, at 2:57 PM, Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> It's interesting to note that this had no impact on his behavior here....
> 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/58c398e9/attachment.htm>

From bunjee50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  2 16:39:09 2020
From: bunjee50 at gmail.com (Danny Johnson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 16:39:09 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <B7627185-EEA6-40C7-887E-82D88173BCB3@cwis.biz>
References: <af035f93-b2e4-58d1-118a-5d741c0d9089@pinenet.com>
 <818F2B95-BB70-4D03-8977-B46A3A5E6B19@cwis.biz>
 <0654bd18-520a-8581-361d-c1913d6fdf02@pinenet.com>
 <9A5FB0F9-C998-4479-8C87-891F7A5FD5B6@cwis.biz>
 <4cd9758e-7047-a039-1cf1-4af0b9864111@pinenet.com>
 <E6B77B13-7863-41C6-B4B9-CC631C3C8FAB@cwis.biz>
 <3d7addbb-4e4d-6a74-b34c-e626aab866b9@pinenet.com>
 <B7B8DEC8-14AE-4C18-889B-43992D6E2E3E@cwis.biz>
 <20200131155838.GA26729@nobelware.com>
 <6b7dd8c4-3b8e-4307-d8bc-7f4a34c816df@pinenet.com>
 <F1D42BEF-5FB8-4A6C-ADCD-DD59CFBAFA70@cwis.biz>
 <CANa+X+tF08jAQy9sr990wA88zRu0abQk2YAxK3-ts=DONXsLkA@mail.gmail.com>
 <B7627185-EEA6-40C7-887E-82D88173BCB3@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <CANa+X+uC0P0w_L8-PZNA8A=tc_HvANDyBrsVqUTO13nTPCJWPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Just for my own use as a normal user.
I am not a tech guy just someone that likes computers.

On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 10:05 AM Ryan Coleman <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:

> Danny,
>
> Welcome to the group!
>
> My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?
>
> For what purpose?  Each variant, in my experience, is geared toward a
> different want and need. What are you hoping to get out of your
> installation?
>
>
> —
> Ryan
>
> On Feb 2, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Danny Johnson <bunjee50 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm sending a message that has nothing to do with what you all are
> discussing.
> My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?
> Please advise.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Danny Johnson
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/f5f81995/attachment-0001.htm>

From elhaddi at enduradata.com  Sun Feb  2 18:27:37 2020
From: elhaddi at enduradata.com (A. El Haddi)
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2020 18:27:37 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <CANa+X+uC0P0w_L8-PZNA8A=tc_HvANDyBrsVqUTO13nTPCJWPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <mailman.0.1580691497.758.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>

Danny,Try ubuntu. Just make sure you shutdown the computer using the GUI. Install the desktop version.  --A. A. El Haddi
-------- Original message --------From: Danny Johnson <bunjee50 at gmail.com> Date: 2/2/20  4:39 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board prototyping.) Just for my own use as a normal user. I am not a tech guy just someone that likes computers.On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 10:05 AM Ryan Coleman <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:Danny,Welcome to the group! My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?For what purpose?  Each variant, in my experience, is geared toward a different want and need. What are you hoping to get out of your installation?—RyanOn Feb 2, 2020, at 9:07 AM, Danny Johnson <bunjee50 at gmail.com> wrote:I'm sending a message that has nothing to do with what you all are discussing.My question is what is the BEST Linux OS out there?Please advise._______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
-- Danny Johnson
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/e1e5a4f7/attachment.htm>

From n0nas at amsat.org  Sun Feb  2 21:29:58 2020
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Doug Reed)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 21:29:58 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS
Message-ID: <CAL+RLOQ5LgHn7QPf8tQi4QBCokj6QWV+EHymEv1ODuQ5nsLE0w@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Danny.

Your question "What is the best Linux" can't be answered since it is
often personal preference. It is the same as asking what is the best
car, best TV show, or who is the best musician. Everyone will have a
different opinion. And it really does come down to opinion.

Several people have asked what are you going to use the computer for?
I'll simply suggest that if you are looking for an alternative to
Windows 7 or Windows 10 and simply want the computer for web browsing,
email, maybe a few letters, and playing music or videos, then ANY of
the top six Linux versions on the Distrowatch.com web site will
probably install and run just fine and do everything you want. The
next 20 will probably work also....

I am still a NOOB with Linux. The above list of items is primarily
what I use the computer for. I chose Linux Mint starting with version
17.1, then 18.0, and now 19.1, But I've played with multiple other
distributions and had good luck. I started using Linux on a daily
basis about the time Windows XP was killed off. I didn't want to
support Microsoft and keep buying new computers when my old one would
do everything I needed as long as I could get security updates.

Instead of asking us for the "best" Linux, you can search for the same
phrase on Google and read a bunch of web pages, add in 2019 or 2020 if
you want the latest reviews. What you really want is reviews that will
rate the various distributions based on ease of use, features, and
target audience. Unless you are in the "guru" class, you probably
should avoid Gentoo Linux and Linux From Scratch. If all you want is a
simple replacement for Windows WITHOUT running your old Windows
software, then any of the first 5 or 10 Linux Distros on
Distrowatch.com will probably fill the bill. Personally, I like Linux
Mint, which is based on Ubuntu, which is based on Debian. But that is
just my opinion based on the way I use the computer and my opinion is
worth every cent you paid for it...,

There are a few things you will want to be aware of. Again, they are
my just opinion.

If your computer is too new, you may have problems simply because the
people writing drivers haven't caught up with the your hardware. You
can also have trouble with some laptops, or any computer, if the
manufacturer got too "frisky" using uncommon chips or using them in an
uncommon way. Usually that isn't a serious problem and a bit of
Googling will point you to a fix. But if you can't find an answer
after an hour or two of search, then download a different distro and
try that one.... I've had to do that multiple times when trying to
find a distro which works well on an old laptop or with a weird
BIOS....

You may want to choose several different distributions so you have an
option if the first one gives you problems. I think one of my more
common problems has been wanting to try a new distro but the bootable
DVD will not boot in my computer because of BIOS vs UEFI differences.
Most modern distros can also write to a USB stick and boot from there,
but that isn't anywhere near 100% either.

Years ago, my most common problems were video, sound cards, WIFI, and
printers. The sound card and WIFI problems are pretty well solved.
Some people have trouble with their video card but I don't because my
video cards are simple and use very standard chips. But I can't say
the same for printers. That is still my usual problem with different
distros. If you have an HP laser printer, there will probably be no
trouble. A few years ago I had a Canon laser printer and it took
several months before I found the trick to make it print properly
without rebooting the computer after every print job. I'm now using a
Brother HL-L2300D laser printer because it was CHEAP. But I'm still
having trouble getting it to print long docs with graphics. Text
prints OK. Just be aware you may have trouble.

I would suggest you start by reading a bunch of the "best Linux to
replace Windows" web sites. Then choose half a dozen distros and read
the reviews about them on Distrowatch. Then choose three of them and
download the ISO files and burn a bootable "live" DVD for each of
them. Then you can boot each one and play with them before you install
any of them. Test the major functions, networking, WIFI, sound, play a
video, and try the printer. Make notes about what you like and don't
like, then try the next one. Running from a DVD is SLOW, so ignore
that problem while testing the distros.

It was said that defectors from the old Communist USSR used to have
breakdowns because they had so many choices to make every day of their
new life. Just the number of choices in the big-box stores or grocery
stores gave them trouble. Linux is similar.

All Linux distros use the same basic software at the core of the
operating system. Beyond that it is choices and how you optimize the
extra pieces you pile on top. We choose to use some pre-configured
distribution that someone with more knowledge has put together for us.
We accept "his" choices so we don't have to figure out how to do it
ourselves. If you decide later that he left something out or you like
a different program than what he provided, you can add it to your
system from the "repository" of Linux programs that all distros
maintain. One benefit of trying many distros is that you get to see
some of the different software and might decide to add it to your
system later.

One major "choice" I haven't mentioned yet is the choice of "window
manager". The window manager controls the screen and is what lets you
"point and click" to run a program or interact with your browser.
Microsoft Windows has a different window manager in every version of
the OS, but you don't get to choose, MS tells you what you get. Just
remember how the screen changed as you went from Windows 2000, to Win
XP, to Vista, then Win 7, 8, and now Win 10. I used Win 2000 for a
long time and it was better than Win NT4, I liked the Win XP screen a
lot, I can live with Win 7 and I hate Win 10, but I can't choose a
different window manager with MS.

Linux goes the other route. There are maybe 4 or 5 major window
managers and at least a dozen minor versions. At minimum they all do
the same thing. The difference is in the extra features and the eye
candy they provide. The big two are KDE (Cinnamon) and Gnome (Mate).
They are considered "heavy" because they have a lot of extra features
and eye candy and take a bigger chunk of the CPU cycles to run. I
currently use Linux Mint with the Mate window manager on my dual core
2.5GHz laptop. On a slower computer or one with 1GB of RAM or less,
I'd probably choose the XFCE window manager or one of the other "light
weight" window managers for older computers. Or if I wanted a bit more
"snap" in my window manager, I could still use any of the light weight
versions on the fastest computer made.

My last comment will be regarding running your old Windows programs on
Linux. So far I haven't bothered because for most of what I want to
run I can find a free Linux program to do the same thing. The only
money I spend on software is when I make a donation to support a
program I like and use. But I'm not using Linux for heavy graphics or
video rendering or building a database for a Fortune 500 company. My
computer is just a hobby and daily requirement for life, but not how I
make a living....

If you do have some old Windows programs that you can't live without
and can't find a free alternative, then you can do your own research
and figure out how to make it work under Linux. But I'm not the one to
answer any questions on that subject.... But chances are pretty good
you can make it work...

This should be enough to keep you going for a while. Once you choose a
few distros to try and if you still have problems installing the
distro of your choice, that will be the time to come back here with a
specific question and the guys (and gals) will try to help.

Your last option is to try attending one of the local Linux group's
meetings. You can find some info at Penguins Unbound
<https://www.meetup.com/PenguinsUnbound/> and perhaps find something
in your area, or ask here on the TCLUG list. It used to be that
Penguins Unbound would schedule an "Installfest" at one of the spring
meetings where you could take your computer and get help and advice on
installing Linux, but I don't know if one is scheduled for this
spring.

Good luck with your journey to Linux.

Doug.

-- 
I vote the Second Amendment FIRST!

The things they do not tell you are usually the clue to solving the problem.

From bunjee50 at gmail.com  Sun Feb  2 21:45:12 2020
From: bunjee50 at gmail.com (Danny Johnson)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 21:45:12 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS
In-Reply-To: <CAL+RLOQ5LgHn7QPf8tQi4QBCokj6QWV+EHymEv1ODuQ5nsLE0w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL+RLOQ5LgHn7QPf8tQi4QBCokj6QWV+EHymEv1ODuQ5nsLE0w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANa+X+vLo9r5M=Hgv_ox_pnRnLOZC45hDQ0Hhw-DfrXWSMV07g@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you for the insight sir!
I really appreciate it!
DJ

On Sun, Feb 2, 2020 at 9:36 PM Doug Reed <n0nas at amsat.org> wrote:

> Hi Danny.
>
> Your question "What is the best Linux" can't be answered since it is
> often personal preference. It is the same as asking what is the best
> car, best TV show, or who is the best musician. Everyone will have a
> different opinion. And it really does come down to opinion.
>
> Several people have asked what are you going to use the computer for?
> I'll simply suggest that if you are looking for an alternative to
> Windows 7 or Windows 10 and simply want the computer for web browsing,
> email, maybe a few letters, and playing music or videos, then ANY of
> the top six Linux versions on the Distrowatch.com web site will
> probably install and run just fine and do everything you want. The
> next 20 will probably work also....
>
> I am still a NOOB with Linux. The above list of items is primarily
> what I use the computer for. I chose Linux Mint starting with version
> 17.1, then 18.0, and now 19.1, But I've played with multiple other
> distributions and had good luck. I started using Linux on a daily
> basis about the time Windows XP was killed off. I didn't want to
> support Microsoft and keep buying new computers when my old one would
> do everything I needed as long as I could get security updates.
>
> Instead of asking us for the "best" Linux, you can search for the same
> phrase on Google and read a bunch of web pages, add in 2019 or 2020 if
> you want the latest reviews. What you really want is reviews that will
> rate the various distributions based on ease of use, features, and
> target audience. Unless you are in the "guru" class, you probably
> should avoid Gentoo Linux and Linux From Scratch. If all you want is a
> simple replacement for Windows WITHOUT running your old Windows
> software, then any of the first 5 or 10 Linux Distros on
> Distrowatch.com will probably fill the bill. Personally, I like Linux
> Mint, which is based on Ubuntu, which is based on Debian. But that is
> just my opinion based on the way I use the computer and my opinion is
> worth every cent you paid for it...,
>
> There are a few things you will want to be aware of. Again, they are
> my just opinion.
>
> If your computer is too new, you may have problems simply because the
> people writing drivers haven't caught up with the your hardware. You
> can also have trouble with some laptops, or any computer, if the
> manufacturer got too "frisky" using uncommon chips or using them in an
> uncommon way. Usually that isn't a serious problem and a bit of
> Googling will point you to a fix. But if you can't find an answer
> after an hour or two of search, then download a different distro and
> try that one.... I've had to do that multiple times when trying to
> find a distro which works well on an old laptop or with a weird
> BIOS....
>
> You may want to choose several different distributions so you have an
> option if the first one gives you problems. I think one of my more
> common problems has been wanting to try a new distro but the bootable
> DVD will not boot in my computer because of BIOS vs UEFI differences.
> Most modern distros can also write to a USB stick and boot from there,
> but that isn't anywhere near 100% either.
>
> Years ago, my most common problems were video, sound cards, WIFI, and
> printers. The sound card and WIFI problems are pretty well solved.
> Some people have trouble with their video card but I don't because my
> video cards are simple and use very standard chips. But I can't say
> the same for printers. That is still my usual problem with different
> distros. If you have an HP laser printer, there will probably be no
> trouble. A few years ago I had a Canon laser printer and it took
> several months before I found the trick to make it print properly
> without rebooting the computer after every print job. I'm now using a
> Brother HL-L2300D laser printer because it was CHEAP. But I'm still
> having trouble getting it to print long docs with graphics. Text
> prints OK. Just be aware you may have trouble.
>
> I would suggest you start by reading a bunch of the "best Linux to
> replace Windows" web sites. Then choose half a dozen distros and read
> the reviews about them on Distrowatch. Then choose three of them and
> download the ISO files and burn a bootable "live" DVD for each of
> them. Then you can boot each one and play with them before you install
> any of them. Test the major functions, networking, WIFI, sound, play a
> video, and try the printer. Make notes about what you like and don't
> like, then try the next one. Running from a DVD is SLOW, so ignore
> that problem while testing the distros.
>
> It was said that defectors from the old Communist USSR used to have
> breakdowns because they had so many choices to make every day of their
> new life. Just the number of choices in the big-box stores or grocery
> stores gave them trouble. Linux is similar.
>
> All Linux distros use the same basic software at the core of the
> operating system. Beyond that it is choices and how you optimize the
> extra pieces you pile on top. We choose to use some pre-configured
> distribution that someone with more knowledge has put together for us.
> We accept "his" choices so we don't have to figure out how to do it
> ourselves. If you decide later that he left something out or you like
> a different program than what he provided, you can add it to your
> system from the "repository" of Linux programs that all distros
> maintain. One benefit of trying many distros is that you get to see
> some of the different software and might decide to add it to your
> system later.
>
> One major "choice" I haven't mentioned yet is the choice of "window
> manager". The window manager controls the screen and is what lets you
> "point and click" to run a program or interact with your browser.
> Microsoft Windows has a different window manager in every version of
> the OS, but you don't get to choose, MS tells you what you get. Just
> remember how the screen changed as you went from Windows 2000, to Win
> XP, to Vista, then Win 7, 8, and now Win 10. I used Win 2000 for a
> long time and it was better than Win NT4, I liked the Win XP screen a
> lot, I can live with Win 7 and I hate Win 10, but I can't choose a
> different window manager with MS.
>
> Linux goes the other route. There are maybe 4 or 5 major window
> managers and at least a dozen minor versions. At minimum they all do
> the same thing. The difference is in the extra features and the eye
> candy they provide. The big two are KDE (Cinnamon) and Gnome (Mate).
> They are considered "heavy" because they have a lot of extra features
> and eye candy and take a bigger chunk of the CPU cycles to run. I
> currently use Linux Mint with the Mate window manager on my dual core
> 2.5GHz laptop. On a slower computer or one with 1GB of RAM or less,
> I'd probably choose the XFCE window manager or one of the other "light
> weight" window managers for older computers. Or if I wanted a bit more
> "snap" in my window manager, I could still use any of the light weight
> versions on the fastest computer made.
>
> My last comment will be regarding running your old Windows programs on
> Linux. So far I haven't bothered because for most of what I want to
> run I can find a free Linux program to do the same thing. The only
> money I spend on software is when I make a donation to support a
> program I like and use. But I'm not using Linux for heavy graphics or
> video rendering or building a database for a Fortune 500 company. My
> computer is just a hobby and daily requirement for life, but not how I
> make a living....
>
> If you do have some old Windows programs that you can't live without
> and can't find a free alternative, then you can do your own research
> and figure out how to make it work under Linux. But I'm not the one to
> answer any questions on that subject.... But chances are pretty good
> you can make it work...
>
> This should be enough to keep you going for a while. Once you choose a
> few distros to try and if you still have problems installing the
> distro of your choice, that will be the time to come back here with a
> specific question and the guys (and gals) will try to help.
>
> Your last option is to try attending one of the local Linux group's
> meetings. You can find some info at Penguins Unbound
> <https://www.meetup.com/PenguinsUnbound/> and perhaps find something
> in your area, or ask here on the TCLUG list. It used to be that
> Penguins Unbound would schedule an "Installfest" at one of the spring
> meetings where you could take your computer and get help and advice on
> installing Linux, but I don't know if one is scheduled for this
> spring.
>
> Good luck with your journey to Linux.
>
> Doug.
>
> --
> I vote the Second Amendment FIRST!
>
> The things they do not tell you are usually the clue to solving the
> problem.
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Danny Johnson
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/43592e89/attachment-0001.htm>

From rick.tanner at real-time.com  Sun Feb  2 23:08:53 2020
From: rick.tanner at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 23:08:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <1266BBF5-F034-46ED-8040-F8EE565F537F@cwis.biz>
References: <CABWFOjtdYk=O8BDBuogm5s-ykfJ54rwCktHNXx5e7XsKz=mumw@mail.gmail.com>
 <A02FEA65-1646-478A-9C0C-A3958B6EEA30@cwis.biz>
 <CAJt84+Pjs26L_bc2H9DQPW+wcCzALTik646ncc8JbYBxcuTfHA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1266BBF5-F034-46ED-8040-F8EE565F537F@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <4a04b1f3-d81e-4b39-6d5f-a72ab2960819@real-time.com>

On 2/2/20 4:07 PM, Ryan Coleman wrote:
> I suspect our list operators are no longer active.

Not the case, at least one of them is. ;-)


-- 
Rick Tanner <rick at real-time.com>      | Phone : (952) 943-8700
http://www.real-time.com              | Fax :   (952) 943-8500

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Sun Feb  2 23:11:31 2020
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 23:11:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <20200203005817.9CB37103BE3@shadowknight.real-time.com>
References: <CANa+X+uC0P0w_L8-PZNA8A=tc_HvANDyBrsVqUTO13nTPCJWPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200203005817.9CB37103BE3@shadowknight.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9Ayg9tY54RxYT3rVLeWeQ+zyRfm-U7B=HpiiKQAFuJ0Nw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Just for my own use as a normal user.
> I am not a tech guy just someone that likes computers.
>

Yggdrasil
>

i agree with kathryn.  a truly inspiring ancestor.  just too bad it's dead.

i switched from redhat to (l)ubuntu (gutsy at the time) because it
supported my hardware which was very old even as of then.  i continued to
happily use that very old hardware until very recently, tho even stuffed
with all the memory it could hold it was inadequate for modern browsers.
other than for browsing, ubuntu kept it working great, eg for playing
audio, and running vnc.  lubuntu's best for older iron.  if your hardware
isn't too old, any ubuntu flavor should be fine.

to be thoroughly honest, some of the ubuntu installers along the way have
been troublesome.  and many folks have been unhappy with ubuntu decisions
about privacy, tracking, and such.  because of all that, i've taken forays
into linux mint, arch linux, damn small linux, and a few others.  each has
some interesting aspects.  but i always end up back with ubuntu because
things that i want to run, be they various bits of hardware or software,
work on ubuntu when they didn't work elsewhere.  there are ways to
uninstall or refrain from installing the trackers.  eg i don't think
they're there if you install just lubuntu.  might be true for other
variants.  correct me if you know better.

the ubuntu gui has taken a wild ride over the past few years.  i think it's
on a good roll now that it's back to gnome3.  lubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu,
and ubuntustudio gui's are all good too.  tho i don't use any of them.  my
own age old .twmrc has completely kept me out of all that drama.  you can
run whatever gui you like, or lean into the commandline, that's one of the
great strengths of linux, regardless of which distro.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200202/872ef3e6/attachment.htm>

From Kurtis at riseup.net  Sun Feb  2 23:42:00 2020
From: Kurtis at riseup.net (Kurtis Hanna)
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2020 05:42:00 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9Ayg9tY54RxYT3rVLeWeQ+zyRfm-U7B=HpiiKQAFuJ0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANa+X+uC0P0w_L8-PZNA8A=tc_HvANDyBrsVqUTO13nTPCJWPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200203005817.9CB37103BE3@shadowknight.real-time.com>
 <CAD+dB9Ayg9tY54RxYT3rVLeWeQ+zyRfm-U7B=HpiiKQAFuJ0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9fd69502-0d3a-6328-0367-979b02c9ee9d@riseup.net>

Hello,

Call me crazy, but I think that the best Gnu+Linux Operating Systems are
the ones that respect your freedom(s) the most. The Free Software
Foundation created some guidelines on this matter here:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

Here's a list of distros that the FSF has official certified to meet the
criteria laid out in the guidelines:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html

I use Trisquel the most out of that list. Guix, Parabola, PureOS, and
Hyperbola are all great as well. The others are not as user friendly or
aren't updated regularly. PureOS (a fork of Debian) and Trisquel (a fork
of Ubuntu) are the most user friendly for people that are new to
Gnu+Linux. Parabola nad Hyperbola are based on Arch, which is a little
bit more advanced, but not super hard to learn if you put effort into it.

I personally volunteer on a non-GNU system called Replicant that also
meets the FSDG criteria:
https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-non-gnu-distros.html

I assume that most people on this list don't use Gnu because this is the
TCLUG group and not a TCGLUG group. ::winky face::

Sorry to all the potential haters that don't want to emphasize freedom
in computing, but instead want to shill for Oracle and similar
oppression oriented distos.

In Freedom,
Kurtis

From chewie at wookimus.net  Mon Feb  3 07:21:31 2020
From: chewie at wookimus.net (chewie at wookimus.net)
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2020 07:21:31 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Best Linux OS (was Re: Microcontroller board
 prototyping.)
In-Reply-To: <9fd69502-0d3a-6328-0367-979b02c9ee9d@riseup.net>
References: <CANa+X+uC0P0w_L8-PZNA8A=tc_HvANDyBrsVqUTO13nTPCJWPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200203005817.9CB37103BE3@shadowknight.real-time.com>
 <CAD+dB9Ayg9tY54RxYT3rVLeWeQ+zyRfm-U7B=HpiiKQAFuJ0Nw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9fd69502-0d3a-6328-0367-979b02c9ee9d@riseup.net>
Message-ID: <874kw7q010.fsf@wookimus.net>

Kurtis Hanna <Kurtis at riseup.net> writes:
> Call me crazy, but I think that the best Gnu+Linux Operating Systems are
> the ones that respect your freedom(s) the most. The Free Software
> Foundation created some guidelines on this matter here:
> https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-system-distribution-guidelines.html

No argument there, really. Not always practical, I'm afraid.

> I use Trisquel the most out of that list. Guix, Parabola, PureOS, and
> Hyperbola are all great as well.

I've wanted to try Guix, but I'm worried about driver support and
general tools availability. I feel like it's one of those "when I have
time for it" moments. Otherwise, currently running Ubuntu on a Dell XPS
13 Developer Edition until my warranty runs out.

Most of what I do is working inside Emacs and a browser, so I could
probably get away with a distrobution that doesn't demand a lot from
hardware. The touch screen may be a little tricky to get working.

My days of desktop gaming have long ago faded, but Linux seems
well supported under Steam. Not sure if you can install that on Guix
without first installing rpm or dpkg and associated libraries. I would
assume if you could work out all the dependencies, it should be very
reproducable in Guix.

For those not as worried about free v.s. non-free in the RMS definition,
there is NixOS (which Guix took its initial inspiration from) and Debian
(which will always hold a special place in my heart).

--
Chad Walstrom <chewie at wookimus.net>
Blog: https://runswithd6s.gitlab.io/
Twitter: @runswithd6s
Keybase: https://keybase.io/runswithd6s

From YKORNBLUM at msn.com  Mon Feb  3 20:20:28 2020
From: YKORNBLUM at msn.com (YOEL Kornblum)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 02:20:28 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux computer and Linux installation
Message-ID: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>

Hi,

I am looking to buy a Linux laptop and I wonder if anyone has any recommendation as to what and where to buy it.  It is for home use so cost is a factor.

Another option that I am thinking about is to use my HP ProBook 450 G1 with Windows 7 laptop to install Linux on it instead of Windows 7.  It is about 4 to 5 years old computer.  I noticed that the installation is done online when I visited one site.  Any safe place for download and install?  The last time I did it was with Red Hat disks.



Thanks,

Yuli Kornblum

ykornblum at msn.com

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200204/1acd3e73/attachment.htm>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Tue Feb  4 08:48:32 2020
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 14:48:32 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux computer and Linux installation
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <20200204144832.GA12228@nobelware.com>

Linux virtualizes much better than Windows (although Windows 7 is pretty good
at it). So, if you can live with Windows and you can keep it healthy, just
virtualize the Linux side.

I do not do that. I run Windows stuff over WINE.


From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Tue Feb  4 08:54:07 2020
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 08:54:07 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux computer and Linux installation
In-Reply-To: <20200204144832.GA12228@nobelware.com>
References: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <20200204144832.GA12228@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+Mf6F-dR2_nzkirghHCd51d+Xnb4patpyJrbU+iYC6=0A@mail.gmail.com>

I prefer Dell laptops. You can get great prices through the Dell outlet
site for used and refurbished computers, Dell has used the same, or similar
power adapters for years, so there are lots of options on purchasing or
reusing additional adapters, they are pretty robust, and tend to hold up
well. I have had pretty decent luck installing Linux on them -- you just
need to make sure that the major components all have Linux support -- just
google the wifi card, and the video cards to see what support is like.

On Tue, Feb 4, 2020 at 8:48 AM Iznogoud <iznogoud at nobelware.com> wrote:

> Linux virtualizes much better than Windows (although Windows 7 is pretty
> good
> at it). So, if you can live with Windows and you can keep it healthy, just
> virtualize the Linux side.
>
> I do not do that. I run Windows stuff over WINE.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200204/8bc0e176/attachment.htm>

From rclarksean at arvig.net  Tue Feb  4 15:12:15 2020
From: rclarksean at arvig.net (Randy Clarksean)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 15:12:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux computer and Linux installation
In-Reply-To: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
References: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <ef370348-dc91-47e9-045f-3f39d583ca00@arvig.net>

Yuli -


If you are just going to browse the web and shop - then the laptop that 
you currently have is more than adequate. I have a 7-8 year old laptop 
with 2 GB ... maybe it's 4 GB of RAM with Ubuntu 18.04 on it and it is 
just fine. If I was to install a linux OS on a home laptop again, I 
think I would go with Linux Mint or Elementary OS. I have Linux Mint on 
a laptop that I use for work when I travel and it is just fine for all 
the basics. It boots nicely and I only have a couple of minor complaints 
(haven't figured out how to turn off the touchpad via the function keys 
or system).


I normally download an ISO, burn it on a DVD, then boot to the DVD and 
perform an install that way. I have download numerous copies of Ubuntu, 
Linux Mint, etc. and have never run into a real problem. I have also 
downloaded and installed from a USB drive when I did not have a DVD 
drive as part of the system. The only thing there is you have to hop 
into BIOS to set it to boot from the USB.


If you want to get a different laptop, I would just look for something 
off of eBay or from a family member that isn't using it anymore (i have 
2 from my son). I wouldn't pay more than $100 if you just want to browse 
the web, etc.


Good luck.


Randy


On 2/3/20 8:20 PM, YOEL Kornblum wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I am looking to buy a Linux laptop and I wonder if anyone has any 
> recommendation as to what and where to buy it.It is for home use so 
> cost is a factor.
>
> Another option that I am thinking about is to use my HP ProBook 450 G1 
> with Windows 7 laptop to install Linux on it instead of Windows 7.It 
> is about 4 to 5 years old computer.I noticed that the installation is 
> done online when I visited one site.Any safe place for download and 
> install?The last time I did it was with Red Hat disks.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Yuli Kornblum
>
> ykornblum at msn.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-- 
Randy Clarksean, Ph.D., P.E., CFEI, CFII
50685 330th Street
Ottertail MN 56571
Phone: 1.218.385.3750
Mobile: 1.218.371.1967

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200204/d61f035c/attachment.htm>

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Feb  4 16:48:53 2020
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2020 16:48:53 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux computer and Linux installation
In-Reply-To: <ef370348-dc91-47e9-045f-3f39d583ca00@arvig.net>
References: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <ef370348-dc91-47e9-045f-3f39d583ca00@arvig.net>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9A+WYn2ASTJeXPy4qYSK-Xwu79E=ruHcJz5rgr5gto8Kw@mail.gmail.com>

>
> If you are just going to browse the web and shop - then the laptop that
> you currently have is more than adequate. I have a 7-8 year old laptop with
> 2 GB ... maybe it's 4 GB of RAM with Ubuntu 18.04 on it and it is just fine.
>
in my experience the difference between 2gb and 4 is significant on today's
web.  2gb is fine on easy web pages, but hit some pages with all the
dancing ads and 2gb gets heavily into thrashing.  go wild with google maps
or especially google earth and even 4gb ends up thrashing.  tho,
interestingly, contrast all that with the nullschool wind map, it cleverly
responds with elegant agility in well under 2gb.

> If I was to install a linux OS on a home laptop again, I think I would go
> with Linux Mint or Elementary OS. I have Linux Mint on a laptop that I use
> for work when I travel and it is just fine for all the basics. It boots
> nicely and I only have a couple of minor complaints (haven't figured out
> how to turn off the touchpad via the function keys or system).
>
just lay a postcard over it.

I am looking to buy a Linux laptop and I wonder if anyone has any
recommendation as to what and where to buy it.  It is for home use so cost
is a factor.

check in at free geek.  they recycle electronics, install linux, and
resell.  good prices, very helpful, they've been happy to take apart and
diagnose machines i didn't even buy there as i watch for no charge.  tho
whenever they get laptops they go quickly, so you have to be patient and
proactively keep checking.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200204/bb57a04d/attachment.htm>

From eminmn at sysmatrix.net  Wed Feb  5 09:53:50 2020
From: eminmn at sysmatrix.net (eminmn)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 09:53:50 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux computer and Linux installation
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9A+WYn2ASTJeXPy4qYSK-Xwu79E=ruHcJz5rgr5gto8Kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <ef370348-dc91-47e9-045f-3f39d583ca00@arvig.net>
 <CAD+dB9A+WYn2ASTJeXPy4qYSK-Xwu79E=ruHcJz5rgr5gto8Kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <92ef973c-7e6f-f770-76a0-55808fc967a7@sysmatrix.net>



On 2/4/2020 16:48, gregrwm wrote:
> If I was to install a linux OS on a home laptop again, I think I would 
> go with Linux Mint or Elementary OS. I have Linux Mint on a laptop that 
> I use for work when I travel and it is just fine for all the basics. It 
> boots nicely and I only have a couple of minor complaints (haven't 
> figured out how to turn off the touchpad via the function keys or system).

On Mint 19 go to Menu > Preferences > Mouse and Touchpad then slide 
'Enable Touchpad' button to off. This at least works on all Thinkpads I 
have tried.

ed

From rclarksean at arvig.net  Wed Feb  5 14:01:59 2020
From: rclarksean at arvig.net (Randy Clarksean)
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 14:01:59 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux computer and Linux installation
In-Reply-To: <92ef973c-7e6f-f770-76a0-55808fc967a7@sysmatrix.net>
References: <DM5PR22MB05711B8ACE6EC1C5810AFDF4B2030@DM5PR22MB0571.namprd22.prod.outlook.com>
 <ef370348-dc91-47e9-045f-3f39d583ca00@arvig.net>
 <CAD+dB9A+WYn2ASTJeXPy4qYSK-Xwu79E=ruHcJz5rgr5gto8Kw@mail.gmail.com>
 <92ef973c-7e6f-f770-76a0-55808fc967a7@sysmatrix.net>
Message-ID: <f4ca5883-63d8-fc9f-5740-c1a5244ed741@arvig.net>

Thanks for the suggestion - I will try it. I THINK I went this route 
once, but since it still doesn't shut off I will make sure to try it again.

On 2/5/20 9:53 AM, eminmn wrote:
>
>
> On 2/4/2020 16:48, gregrwm wrote:
>> If I was to install a linux OS on a home laptop again, I think I 
>> would go with Linux Mint or Elementary OS. I have Linux Mint on a 
>> laptop that I use for work when I travel and it is just fine for all 
>> the basics. It boots nicely and I only have a couple of minor 
>> complaints (haven't figured out how to turn off the touchpad via the 
>> function keys or system).
>
> On Mint 19 go to Menu > Preferences > Mouse and Touchpad then slide 
> 'Enable Touchpad' button to off. This at least works on all Thinkpads 
> I have tried.
>
> ed
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-- 
Randy Clarksean, Ph.D., P.E., CFEI, CFII
50685 330th Street
Ottertail MN 56571
Phone: 1.218.385.3750
Mobile: 1.218.371.1967


From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 06:48:21 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 06:48:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
Message-ID: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>

Greetings

I have started monitoring, in a gross kind of way, my internet usage
starting by using the 24hr graph on my router software (opensource).
So I'm seeing traffic happening in the middle of the night that is
arriving to the mobile equipment, tablet and stupid phone. That
needless use of
bandwidth was curtailed by putting said items on airplane mode for overnight.

Now I am also seeing small spikes of incoming traffic about 3x every 2
hours and I'd like to find out where that traffic is coming from and ,
if I don't like who's doing the sending, to curtail it. If tried short
stints of using vnstat, nethogs and iftop but am not seeing anything
that I think will help me in my quest.

Any suggestions from those that have done or are doing this?

TIA

From andrew at lunn.ch  Mon Feb 10 07:40:43 2020
From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 14:40:43 +0100
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 06:48:21AM -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
> Greetings
> 
> I have started monitoring, in a gross kind of way, my internet usage
> starting by using the 24hr graph on my router software (opensource).

OpenWRT?

If so, just install tcpdump. You probably don't have disk space to
save an unfiltered capture file on your router, so from your Linux
desktop, use something like script(1) to log the console, ssh into the
router, and run tcpdump on the WAN port.

You can then look at the log, and maybe narrow down the
source/destination, or protocol. Run tcpdump with a filter and capture
the frames into a pcap file. If you are worried about disk space, look
at the -c and -C options. Copy the capture off the router and use
wireshark to look at the traffic in more detail.

	  Andrew

From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Mon Feb 10 08:58:21 2020
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 08:58:21 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
Message-ID: <AD54440F-623B-463C-9747-56E876DD52EF@cwis.biz>

Also if you use pfSense (which I have been using at all my client shops since 2014 … although we are not using it [right now] at the office) you can do a similar thing to what o1bigtenor is suggesting. 

There are a few tools out there that can help with the process but it all begins with where/what is doing the collection of data.

> On Feb 10, 2020, at 7:40 AM, Andrew Lunn <andrew at lunn.ch> wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 06:48:21AM -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
>> Greetings
>> 
>> I have started monitoring, in a gross kind of way, my internet usage
>> starting by using the 24hr graph on my router software (opensource).
> 
> OpenWRT?
> 
> If so, just install tcpdump. You probably don't have disk space to
> save an unfiltered capture file on your router, so from your Linux
> desktop, use something like script(1) to log the console, ssh into the
> router, and run tcpdump on the WAN port.
> 
> You can then look at the log, and maybe narrow down the
> source/destination, or protocol. Run tcpdump with a filter and capture
> the frames into a pcap file. If you are worried about disk space, look
> at the -c and -C options. Copy the capture off the router and use
> wireshark to look at the traffic in more detail.
> 
> 	  Andrew
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list


From ryan.coleman at cwis.biz  Mon Feb 10 09:01:15 2020
From: ryan.coleman at cwis.biz (Ryan Coleman)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:01:15 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F451DB7E-6DB7-4374-861D-50A507732B66@cwis.biz>

Forking this original message for a moment… 

Do you have any IoT devices? “Smart” devices? Are you an android user with many devices (such as phones and tablets)? Or similarly that with Apple devices? 

Do you have separate networks for your IoT devices and/or guests and/or mobile devices? 

Apple and Android OSes are known to sync and report, handshake and then chill out for a period of time - this is how they keep batteries from dying in an hour or two when in sleep mode. Same thing applies to apple laptops and I presume chrome books as well.

—
Ryan

> On Feb 10, 2020, at 6:48 AM, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> Now I am also seeing small spikes of incoming traffic about 3x every 2
> hours and I'd like to find out where that traffic is coming from and ,
> if I don't like who's doing the sending, to curtail it. If tried short
> stints of using vnstat, nethogs and iftop but am not seeing anything
> that I think will help me in my quest.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200210/100d0830/attachment.htm>

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 09:13:17 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:13:17 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf5-47GhtFrY6v6E7wDv2Rhq4iEcarmOdH-YxfEH0DX=efA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 7:41 AM Andrew Lunn <andrew at lunn.ch> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 06:48:21AM -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > Greetings
> >
> > I have started monitoring, in a gross kind of way, my internet usage
> > starting by using the 24hr graph on my router software (opensource).
>
> OpenWRT?

I wish - - - - still on dd-wrt. (Want to change but that's not as easy as it
do as it sounds - - - - grin!)
>
> If so, just install tcpdump. You probably don't have disk space to
> save an unfiltered capture file on your router, so from your Linux
> desktop, use something like script(1) to log the console, ssh into the
> router, and run tcpdump on the WAN port.
>
> You can then look at the log, and maybe narrow down the
> source/destination, or protocol. Run tcpdump with a filter and capture
> the frames into a pcap file. If you are worried about disk space, look
> at the -c and -C options. Copy the capture off the router and use
> wireshark to look at the traffic in more detail.
>

So wireshark - - - - it lets you see who or what is shipping you info
even when you're not at the system?

TIA

From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 09:14:02 2020
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:14:02 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>

Is this just a curiosity thing? or is there a concern that some devices are
acting improperly? I know that many devices check for updates overnight --
and this is not limited to just application updates -- but includes some
config file updates. Many ONT/cable modems/etc and even cell phones will
periodically pull down a new config for things like
routes/towers/limits/etc -- but these should be a relatively small 'spike'.
In the case of these sorts of connections, your *best* case is that when
you come back from airplane mode these updates are fetched quietly -- or in
a worse case, not at all.


I know that some older cell phones (one LG model did around 2008ish, at
least, and I have reason to believe that the MVNO Republic Wireless does
this currently) maintained a list of roaming/non-roaming cell towers and if
you a) had roaming turned off, b) had the cell phone for more than a couple
of years, and c) it had issues getting this list updated it would refuse to
connect. It was unaware that Tower X1F003B was non-roaming, and would
refuse to connect to it, even though you had good, strong signals. The
solution with these devices is to manually force them to pull a new list
down and suddenly they work MUCH better.  This said I am not a cell phone
technology expert, and I am just blindly repeating what I have been told by
two different vendors regarding why I needed to force update the internal
tower configs on multiple phones to get them to connect -- and now, when my
wife's Republic Wireless phone acts up, the first thing I do is to pull the
'new towers list' and things start working again....

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 6:49 AM o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor at gmail.com> wrote:

> Greetings
>
> I have started monitoring, in a gross kind of way, my internet usage
> starting by using the 24hr graph on my router software (opensource).
> So I'm seeing traffic happening in the middle of the night that is
> arriving to the mobile equipment, tablet and stupid phone. That
> needless use of
> bandwidth was curtailed by putting said items on airplane mode for
> overnight.
>
> Now I am also seeing small spikes of incoming traffic about 3x every 2
> hours and I'd like to find out where that traffic is coming from and ,
> if I don't like who's doing the sending, to curtail it. If tried short
> stints of using vnstat, nethogs and iftop but am not seeing anything
> that I think will help me in my quest.
>
> Any suggestions from those that have done or are doing this?
>
> TIA
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200210/6b5f609f/attachment-0001.htm>

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 09:19:54 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:19:54 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <AD54440F-623B-463C-9747-56E876DD52EF@cwis.biz>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
 <AD54440F-623B-463C-9747-56E876DD52EF@cwis.biz>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf5-CnUS4SviNe10AP8KKk-edX-K16OLj_-dDW5SqB4GUBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 8:58 AM Ryan Coleman <ryan.coleman at cwis.biz> wrote:
>
> Also if you use pfSense (which I have been using at all my client shops since 2014 … although we are not using it [right now] at the office) you can do a similar thing to what o1bigtenor is suggesting.
>
> There are a few tools out there that can help with the process but it all begins with where/what is doing the collection of data.
>

I was looking for a short term from now hardware firewall solution.

PfSense is often mentioned but what about OpenSense?

TIA

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 09:24:39 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 09:24:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 9:14 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Is this just a curiosity thing? or is there a concern that some devices are acting improperly? I know that many devices check for updates overnight -- and this is not limited to just application updates -- but includes some config file updates. Many ONT/cable modems/etc and even cell phones will periodically pull down a new config for things like routes/towers/limits/etc -- but these should be a relatively small 'spike'. In the case of these sorts of connections, your *best* case is that when you come back from airplane mode these updates are fetched quietly -- or in a worse case, not at all.
>
>
This is not so much a curiosity thing as a way to reduce the data
slurp by whomever.

If I am working on my computer I expect a certain amount of IP back
and forth at the time.
I do NOT want any outside IP to be connecting when I am NOT active on
my equipment.

Sorta like - - - 'my house, my rules' except that today the are a
number of entities that
believe that they own at the very least my data but they really want
to own me - - - I
refuse that offer categorically and vehemently.

Regards

From bbaptist at iexposure.com  Mon Feb 10 10:13:47 2020
From: bbaptist at iexposure.com (Bret Baptist)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 10:13:47 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>

On 2/10/20 9:24 AM, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 9:14 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Is this just a curiosity thing? or is there a concern that some devices are acting improperly? I know that many devices check for updates overnight -- and this is not limited to just application updates -- but includes some config file updates. Many ONT/cable modems/etc and even cell phones will periodically pull down a new config for things like routes/towers/limits/etc -- but these should be a relatively small 'spike'. In the case of these sorts of connections, your *best* case is that when you come back from airplane mode these updates are fetched quietly -- or in a worse case, not at all.
>>
>>
> This is not so much a curiosity thing as a way to reduce the data
> slurp by whomever.
> 
> If I am working on my computer I expect a certain amount of IP back
> and forth at the time.
> I do NOT want any outside IP to be connecting when I am NOT active on
> my equipment.

You are more than likely just pushing this usage to a more active time 
by trying to stop it in off hours.

> 
> Sorta like - - - 'my house, my rules' except that today the are a
> number of entities that
> believe that they own at the very least my data but they really want
> to own me - - - I
> refuse that offer categorically and vehemently.
> 
> Regards
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> 

-- 
Bret Baptist
Senior Network Administrator
Internet Exposure
bbaptist at iexposure.com
(612) 676-1946 x117

Check out our blog: www.iexposure.com/blog
Follow us on Twitter: www.twitter.com/iexposure
Like us on Facebook: www.facebook.com/iexposure
Connect on Linkedin: www.linkedin.com/company/internet-exposure

A Digital Agency Since 1995

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Mon Feb 10 10:24:40 2020
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 16:24:40 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200210162440.GA27540@nobelware.com>

> 
> Sorta like - - - 'my house, my rules' except that today the are a
> number of entities that
> believe that they own at the very least my data but they really want
> to own me - - - I
> refuse that offer categorically and vehemently.
>

OK. So, OpenWRT and anything like an open routing solution will take care
of all the "outside-coming-in" problems.

But I digrees. Those are not the problems. You are concenrned with things
that are now built into the terms of service of most hardware and the OS
and/or apps that come with it. There is no good solution for this. IF you
try to go at it from the "technical" side, i.e. to try to analyze them and
to block them, you are in for a lot of (interesting) learning and you will
likely not succeed. Most hardware, applications and even webpages do not
work well when they are not "talking to the mothership". Yes, it sucks.

(Tangent: Jaron Lanier's book "Ten Arguments..." narrates the problem, but
only provides a partial solution, and it is not even technical.)

If you really want to go at it from the technical point of view, put a Linux
something-rather for your routing device, learn how netfilter works, look up
some "deep packet inspection" (DPI) implementations on Github, and play on.


From andrew at lunn.ch  Mon Feb 10 10:50:06 2020
From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:50:06 +0100
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf5-47GhtFrY6v6E7wDv2Rhq4iEcarmOdH-YxfEH0DX=efA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
 <CAPpdf5-47GhtFrY6v6E7wDv2Rhq4iEcarmOdH-YxfEH0DX=efA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200210165006.GK19213@lunn.ch>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 09:13:17AM -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 7:41 AM Andrew Lunn <andrew at lunn.ch> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 06:48:21AM -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > > Greetings
> > >
> > > I have started monitoring, in a gross kind of way, my internet usage
> > > starting by using the 24hr graph on my router software (opensource).
> >
> > OpenWRT?
> 
> I wish - - - - still on dd-wrt. (Want to change but that's not as easy as it
> do as it sounds - - - - grin!)
> >
> > If so, just install tcpdump. You probably don't have disk space to
> > save an unfiltered capture file on your router, so from your Linux
> > desktop, use something like script(1) to log the console, ssh into the
> > router, and run tcpdump on the WAN port.
> >
> > You can then look at the log, and maybe narrow down the
> > source/destination, or protocol. Run tcpdump with a filter and capture
> > the frames into a pcap file. If you are worried about disk space, look
> > at the -c and -C options. Copy the capture off the router and use
> > wireshark to look at the traffic in more detail.
> >
> 
> So wireshark - - - - it lets you see who or what is shipping you info
> even when you're not at the system?

There are generally two different phases.

1) Capture frames:

tcpdump -w frames.pcap

The -w causes it to write the frames to a file, rather than decoding
them to the console. You can combine that with the usual filters

tcpdump -w frames.pcap port not 22

will ignore all ssh traffic, etc. You can leave that going over
night. Just watch out for filling the disk. With OpenWRT, you could
plug in a USB stick and mount it, giving you a lot more disk space to
play with. DD-WRT, i've no idea, never used it.

You have two places you can capture the traffic on the router. I'm
assuming it is doing NAT to the WAN port? That obfuscates things a bit
if you capture on the WAN interface. NAT will mean you won't see your
individual devices IP addresses, just the routers IP address. You can
also capture on the LAN side. But depending on the setup, you might
see lots of internal LAN traffic which is not heading out to the
Internet. LAN to WIFI traffic. You can get tcpdump to do some
filter. The man page suggests:

       To print traffic neither sourced from nor destined for local
       hosts (if you gateway to one other net, this stuff should never
       make it onto your local net).
       
              tcpdump ip and not net localnet

How well do you have your local IP addresses under control? Does your
DHCP server just have a pool and gives out addresses from that? Or
have you got it configured to give out specific IP addresses for
configured MAC addresses?

2) Analyse the frames. Grab the file of captured frames and let
wireshark decode it. You can then look at the traffic, figure out what
source/sink is. Depending on your dhcp/dns setup, it should be able to
give you hostnames, not IP addresses. 

     Andrew

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 11:32:01 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:32:01 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:24 AM Bret Baptist <bbaptist at iexposure.com> wrote:
>
> On 2/10/20 9:24 AM, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 9:14 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Is this just a curiosity thing? or is there a concern that some devices are acting improperly? I know that many devices check for updates overnight -- and this is not limited to just application updates -- but includes some config file updates. Many ONT/cable modems/etc and even cell phones will periodically pull down a new config for things like routes/towers/limits/etc -- but these should be a relatively small 'spike'. In the case of these sorts of connections, your *best* case is that when you come back from airplane mode these updates are fetched quietly -- or in a worse case, not at all.
> >>
> >>
> > This is not so much a curiosity thing as a way to reduce the data
> > slurp by whomever.
> >
> > If I am working on my computer I expect a certain amount of IP back
> > and forth at the time.
> > I do NOT want any outside IP to be connecting when I am NOT active on
> > my equipment.
>
> You are more than likely just pushing this usage to a more active time
> by trying to stop it in off hours.
>

Possibly - - - - I just am tired of all the male bovine excrement that I'm
expected to swallow so other people get rich! and I'm trying to trim the
beastie's tail feathers!

At present by putting the wireless devices on pause for overnight the
usage patterns are not showing any increased usage in 'open' hours.

That's why the wired such are next.

Regards

From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 11:34:26 2020
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:34:26 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>

How big was the 'spike' overnight? Is it small enough that it's just masked
by normal usage?

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 11:32 AM o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:24 AM Bret Baptist <bbaptist at iexposure.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > On 2/10/20 9:24 AM, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 9:14 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Is this just a curiosity thing? or is there a concern that some
> devices are acting improperly? I know that many devices check for updates
> overnight -- and this is not limited to just application updates -- but
> includes some config file updates. Many ONT/cable modems/etc and even cell
> phones will periodically pull down a new config for things like
> routes/towers/limits/etc -- but these should be a relatively small 'spike'.
> In the case of these sorts of connections, your *best* case is that when
> you come back from airplane mode these updates are fetched quietly -- or in
> a worse case, not at all.
> > >>
> > >>
> > > This is not so much a curiosity thing as a way to reduce the data
> > > slurp by whomever.
> > >
> > > If I am working on my computer I expect a certain amount of IP back
> > > and forth at the time.
> > > I do NOT want any outside IP to be connecting when I am NOT active on
> > > my equipment.
> >
> > You are more than likely just pushing this usage to a more active time
> > by trying to stop it in off hours.
> >
>
> Possibly - - - - I just am tired of all the male bovine excrement that I'm
> expected to swallow so other people get rich! and I'm trying to trim the
> beastie's tail feathers!
>
> At present by putting the wireless devices on pause for overnight the
> usage patterns are not showing any increased usage in 'open' hours.
>
> That's why the wired such are next.
>
> Regards
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200210/b8febf8a/attachment.htm>

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 11:37:45 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:37:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <20200210165006.GK19213@lunn.ch>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
 <CAPpdf5-47GhtFrY6v6E7wDv2Rhq4iEcarmOdH-YxfEH0DX=efA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210165006.GK19213@lunn.ch>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf5-vgETOzMv2QPUzV3wjHPAh9eRRf03fH-xYk220TAzqsQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 10:50 AM Andrew Lunn <andrew at lunn.ch> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 09:13:17AM -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 7:41 AM Andrew Lunn <andrew at lunn.ch> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 06:48:21AM -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
> > > > Greetings
> > > >
> > > > I have started monitoring, in a gross kind of way, my internet usage
> > > > starting by using the 24hr graph on my router software (opensource).
> > >
> > > OpenWRT?
> >
> > I wish - - - - still on dd-wrt. (Want to change but that's not as easy as it
> > do as it sounds - - - - grin!)
> > >
> > > If so, just install tcpdump. You probably don't have disk space to
> > > save an unfiltered capture file on your router, so from your Linux
> > > desktop, use something like script(1) to log the console, ssh into the
> > > router, and run tcpdump on the WAN port.
> > >
> > > You can then look at the log, and maybe narrow down the
> > > source/destination, or protocol. Run tcpdump with a filter and capture
> > > the frames into a pcap file. If you are worried about disk space, look
> > > at the -c and -C options. Copy the capture off the router and use
> > > wireshark to look at the traffic in more detail.
> > >
> >
> > So wireshark - - - - it lets you see who or what is shipping you info
> > even when you're not at the system?
>
> There are generally two different phases.
>
> 1) Capture frames:
>
> tcpdump -w frames.pcap
>
> The -w causes it to write the frames to a file, rather than decoding
> them to the console. You can combine that with the usual filters
>
> tcpdump -w frames.pcap port not 22
>
> will ignore all ssh traffic, etc. You can leave that going over
> night. Just watch out for filling the disk. With OpenWRT, you could
> plug in a USB stick and mount it, giving you a lot more disk space to
> play with. DD-WRT, i've no idea, never used it.
>
> You have two places you can capture the traffic on the router. I'm
> assuming it is doing NAT to the WAN port? That obfuscates things a bit
> if you capture on the WAN interface. NAT will mean you won't see your
> individual devices IP addresses, just the routers IP address. You can
> also capture on the LAN side. But depending on the setup, you might
> see lots of internal LAN traffic which is not heading out to the
> Internet. LAN to WIFI traffic. You can get tcpdump to do some
> filter. The man page suggests:
>
>        To print traffic neither sourced from nor destined for local
>        hosts (if you gateway to one other net, this stuff should never
>        make it onto your local net).
>
>               tcpdump ip and not net localnet

To here I thought I was understanding what you were talking about.
>
> How well do you have your local IP addresses under control? Does your
> DHCP server just have a pool and gives out addresses from that? Or
> have you got it configured to give out specific IP addresses for
> configured MAC addresses?

Now I'm thinking the bright shiny Maserati just blew by me - - - - grin!

This is what I'm trying to learn. I think I'm a few steps behind what you're
talking about here.
Any suggestions as to some pages for studying and learning and
implementing own DHCP and monitoring local IP addys etc?
>
> 2) Analyse the frames. Grab the file of captured frames and let
> wireshark decode it. You can then look at the traffic, figure out what
> source/sink is. Depending on your dhcp/dns setup, it should be able to
> give you hostnames, not IP addresses.
>
I think I have some things to work on before I'm at this step.

Thanking you muchly for your advice and encouragement.
(I do want to learn this stuff - - - -just don't know where to start nor
a good plan for this either!.)

Regards

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 11:44:45 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:44:45 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 11:34 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How big was the 'spike' overnight? Is it small enough that it's just masked by normal usage?
>
Operator of said device(s) is not on the network during the daytime.

There is enough granularity in the graph so that it is possible to determine
times and to get an idea as to the volume of packets (that part isn't
as precise).

The spikes on the 'wired' services are about 3 per every 2 hours and
that's around the clock.
If its ms google (or for that matter any other of the nutty 5) being a
'x'itch well - - - - she
can just ride her broom on out of here (LOL).

Thanks for the assistance!!!

From chapinjeff at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 11:48:40 2020
From: chapinjeff at gmail.com (Jeff Chapin)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 11:48:40 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>

  >> There is enough granularity in the graph so that it is possible to
determine
times and to get an idea as to the volume of packets (that part isn't
as precise).


That's what I am asking about -- if you are talking 1 packet, it would be
nearly impossible to detect if it was masked by legitimate usage, unless
the legitimate usage is '0' packets. If it was 1TB/night, that would be
easily seen.

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 11:45 AM o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 11:34 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > How big was the 'spike' overnight? Is it small enough that it's just
> masked by normal usage?
> >
> Operator of said device(s) is not on the network during the daytime.
>
> There is enough granularity in the graph so that it is possible to
> determine
> times and to get an idea as to the volume of packets (that part isn't
> as precise).
>
> The spikes on the 'wired' services are about 3 per every 2 hours and
> that's around the clock.
> If its ms google (or for that matter any other of the nutty 5) being a
> 'x'itch well - - - - she
> can just ride her broom on out of here (LOL).
>
> Thanks for the assistance!!!
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>


-- 
Jeff Chapin
President, CedarLug, retired
President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
President, UNI Scuba Club
Senator, NISG, retired
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200210/43cc337b/attachment-0001.htm>

From kris.browne at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 12:08:13 2020
From: kris.browne at gmail.com (Kristopher Browne)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 12:08:13 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E6EC1BEC-A73E-4708-87C1-56C549935358@gmail.com>

I would consider this a learning opportunity to instal/learnl packetbeat, Elasticsearch, and kibana, rather than using tcpdump or wireshark… Probably setup logging from the network devices to go there too. Might be able to correlate behaviors that would be harder with the disparate tools.

> On Feb 10, 2020, at 11:48, Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>   >> There is enough granularity in the graph so that it is possible to determine
> times and to get an idea as to the volume of packets (that part isn't
> as precise). 
> 
> 
> That's what I am asking about -- if you are talking 1 packet, it would be nearly impossible to detect if it was masked by legitimate usage, unless the legitimate usage is '0' packets. If it was 1TB/night, that would be easily seen.
> 
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 11:45 AM o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor at gmail.com <mailto:o1bigtenor at gmail.com>> wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 11:34 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com <mailto:chapinjeff at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > How big was the 'spike' overnight? Is it small enough that it's just masked by normal usage?
> >
> Operator of said device(s) is not on the network during the daytime.
> 
> There is enough granularity in the graph so that it is possible to determine
> times and to get an idea as to the volume of packets (that part isn't
> as precise).
> 
> The spikes on the 'wired' services are about 3 per every 2 hours and
> that's around the clock.
> If its ms google (or for that matter any other of the nutty 5) being a
> 'x'itch well - - - - she
> can just ride her broom on out of here (LOL).
> 
> Thanks for the assistance!!!
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Jeff Chapin
> President, CedarLug, retired
> President, UNIPC, "I'll get around to it"
> President, UNI Scuba Club
> Senator, NISG, retired
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200210/0b405777/attachment.htm>

From andrew at lunn.ch  Mon Feb 10 12:09:57 2020
From: andrew at lunn.ch (Andrew Lunn)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 19:09:57 +0100
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf5-vgETOzMv2QPUzV3wjHPAh9eRRf03fH-xYk220TAzqsQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
 <CAPpdf5-47GhtFrY6v6E7wDv2Rhq4iEcarmOdH-YxfEH0DX=efA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210165006.GK19213@lunn.ch>
 <CAPpdf5-vgETOzMv2QPUzV3wjHPAh9eRRf03fH-xYk220TAzqsQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200210180957.GM19213@lunn.ch>

> To here I thought I was understanding what you were talking about.
> >
> > How well do you have your local IP addresses under control? Does your
> > DHCP server just have a pool and gives out addresses from that? Or
> > have you got it configured to give out specific IP addresses for
> > configured MAC addresses?
> 
> Now I'm thinking the bright shiny Maserati just blew by me - - - - grin!
>
> This is what I'm trying to learn. I think I'm a few steps behind what you're
> talking about here.
> Any suggestions as to some pages for studying and learning and
> implementing own DHCP and monitoring local IP addys etc?

I'm assuming your DD-WRT box is your DHCP server? If so, see if these
help:

https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Static_DHCP
https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/DNSMasq_as_DHCP_server

You want to configure static leases. In the first example, the device
in your network which has MAC address 00:11:22:33:44:55 is always
given the IP addresss 192.168.1.50. So when you see 192.168.1.50 in
wireshark, you know what device that is. There is probably a status
page somewhere in DD-WRT showing the leases it has already given out
from its pool. It should list the MAC address and the address from the
pool. So you can get all the MAC addresses from there. The tricky part
is working out what device the MAC address belongs to. You can get
some clues, e.g feed the MAC address into:

https://aruljohn.com/mac.pl

and it will tell you which company the MAC address has been assigned
to.

When you can figure out what a MAC address belongs to, add a static
lease for it. Then either be patient for its current lease to expire,
or power cycle it for immediate results. It should then take the fixed
IP address you have configured for it.

Laptops, tablets, phones, desktops are easy, you can login and see how
they are configured, get the MAC address with "ip link show",
etc. Your smart lightbulbs and other IoT devices often don't have a
nice simple way to give your their MAC address, so you need to do a
bit more detective work.

> > 2) Analyse the frames. Grab the file of captured frames and let
> > wireshark decode it. You can then look at the traffic, figure out what
> > source/sink is. Depending on your dhcp/dns setup, it should be able to
> > give you hostnames, not IP addresses.
> >
> I think I have some things to work on before I'm at this step.

You can start without having DHCP and DNS fully under your control. It
will just make it a bit harder to attribute packets to devices, since
you have no idea who 192.168.42.42 is in your network. But if you see
it talking to apple servers, you can guess it is an apple device. If
it talks to LG servers, it could be your SMART TV, etc.

   Andrew

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 17:11:39 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:11:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf58cnb1QW6K=vrva=Gzyx9Qd9-r8hM5MpSed8i4mZ34j7A@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 11:49 AM Jeff Chapin <chapinjeff at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>   >> There is enough granularity in the graph so that it is possible to determine
> times and to get an idea as to the volume of packets (that part isn't
> as precise).
>
>
> That's what I am asking about -- if you are talking 1 packet, it would be nearly impossible to detect if it was masked by legitimate usage, unless the legitimate usage is '0' packets. If it was 1TB/night, that would be easily seen.
>
Greetings

As I'm on a 9 MBit connection 10 GB would make for a problem!!!
A TB - - - - - well that would probably bring my ISP to its knees! (LOL)

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 17:34:43 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:34:43 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <20200210180957.GM19213@lunn.ch>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210134043.GA32618@lunn.ch>
 <CAPpdf5-47GhtFrY6v6E7wDv2Rhq4iEcarmOdH-YxfEH0DX=efA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210165006.GK19213@lunn.ch>
 <CAPpdf5-vgETOzMv2QPUzV3wjHPAh9eRRf03fH-xYk220TAzqsQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200210180957.GM19213@lunn.ch>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf5_5SsP-7uc0MHT8=x-nZs98AqxicNc3iPhyW9rzXEdxAQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 12:10 PM Andrew Lunn <andrew at lunn.ch> wrote:

> > > How well do you have your local IP addresses under control? Does your
> > > DHCP server just have a pool and gives out addresses from that? Or
> > > have you got it configured to give out specific IP addresses for
> > > configured MAC addresses?
> >
> > Now I'm thinking the bright shiny Maserati just blew by me - - - - grin!
> >
> > This is what I'm trying to learn. I think I'm a few steps behind what you're
> > talking about here.
> > Any suggestions as to some pages for studying and learning and
> > implementing own DHCP and monitoring local IP addys etc?
>
> I'm assuming your DD-WRT box is your DHCP server? If so, see if these
> help:
>
> https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Static_DHCP
> https://wiki.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/DNSMasq_as_DHCP_server
>
> You want to configure static leases. In the first example, the device
> in your network which has MAC address 00:11:22:33:44:55 is always
> given the IP addresss 192.168.1.50. So when you see 192.168.1.50 in
> wireshark, you know what device that is. There is probably a status
> page somewhere in DD-WRT showing the leases it has already given out
> from its pool. It should list the MAC address and the address from the
> pool. So you can get all the MAC addresses from there. The tricky part
> is working out what device the MAC address belongs to. You can get
> some clues, e.g feed the MAC address into:
>
> https://aruljohn.com/mac.pl
>
> and it will tell you which company the MAC address has been assigned
> to.
>
> When you can figure out what a MAC address belongs to, add a static
> lease for it. Then either be patient for its current lease to expire,
> or power cycle it for immediate results. It should then take the fixed
> IP address you have configured for it.
>
> Laptops, tablets, phones, desktops are easy, you can login and see how
> they are configured, get the MAC address with "ip link show",
> etc. Your smart lightbulbs and other IoT devices often don't have a
> nice simple way to give your their MAC address, so you need to do a
> bit more detective work.

None of the IoT stuff here so that part is quite easy!
>
> > > 2) Analyse the frames. Grab the file of captured frames and let
> > > wireshark decode it. You can then look at the traffic, figure out what
> > > source/sink is. Depending on your dhcp/dns setup, it should be able to
> > > give you hostnames, not IP addresses.
> > >
> > I think I have some things to work on before I'm at this step.
>
> You can start without having DHCP and DNS fully under your control. It
> will just make it a bit harder to attribute packets to devices, since
> you have no idea who 192.168.42.42 is in your network. But if you see
> it talking to apple servers, you can guess it is an apple device. If
> it talks to LG servers, it could be your SMART TV, etc.
>
I control everything from the router this way so it wouldn't take long to
figure out what or who 192.168.42.42 is. There are only 8 clients in
total so that I can keep a lid on. Its just that somewhat more often than 4
times over 2 hours (continues except when I'm on the lan) there is a
spike indicating that data has been sent from the lan. (ET is calling
home.) I want to find what is causing this traffic at the very least.

TIA

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Mon Feb 10 17:36:39 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2020 17:36:39 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <E6EC1BEC-A73E-4708-87C1-56C549935358@gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E6EC1BEC-A73E-4708-87C1-56C549935358@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf59J3QJgfXN-5TAD8c5mzpqtuwJXYsgQsmUhiQF8ksm9fA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kristopher Browne
<kris.browne at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would consider this a learning opportunity to instal/learnl packetbeat, Elasticsearch, and kibana, rather than using tcpdump or wireshark… Probably setup logging from the network devices to go there too. Might be able to correlate behaviors that would be harder with the disparate tools.
>

The three packages you mention all would appear to be part of the
same ecosystem.

Am looking at these as an option. Any other option to suggest?

TIA

From rhayman at pureice.com  Tue Feb 11 15:46:08 2020
From: rhayman at pureice.com (r hayman)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 15:46:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <CAPpdf59J3QJgfXN-5TAD8c5mzpqtuwJXYsgQsmUhiQF8ksm9fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E6EC1BEC-A73E-4708-87C1-56C549935358@gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59J3QJgfXN-5TAD8c5mzpqtuwJXYsgQsmUhiQF8ksm9fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1581457568.3215.19.camel@pureice.com>

While I'm not familiar with OpenWRT, but since it's linux, it probably
has the built in capability to capture traffic out of the box.
 I'd start by looking at the destination IP addresses, protocols
(UDP/TCP), and the destination ports.
/var/log/ufw.log (if OpenWRT uses ufw), /var/log/syslog, or wherever it
logs traffic to
MAC = which LAN device traffic originates from if not statically
assigned via DHCP
DST = destination IP
SRC = your LAN IP device (makes things easy if you statically assign
via DHCP)
PROTO = protocol
DPT = destination port the device is trying to connect to
use nslookup on the $DST
google search "port $DPT"
If you have a specific manufacturer's brand device, search for which
ports they use - Apple uses https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202944
I have all pre-defined DHCP static addresses, and rules in my
firewall/router that (a), block all incoming connections, (b) block all
outgoing connections - except for those I define either by source,
destination, protocol, or destination port number. This is heavy-handed 
restrictions on the outgoing side that requires maintenance but nothing
escapes my LAN without me specifying it explicitly. 
I'm pretty sure that OpenWRT would be able to do the same thing.
On Mon, 2020-02-10 at 17:36 -0600, o1bigtenor wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2020 at 12:08 PM Kristopher Browne
> <kris.browne at gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > I would consider this a learning opportunity to instal/learnl
> > packetbeat, Elasticsearch, and kibana, rather than using tcpdump or
> > wireshark… Probably setup logging from the network devices to go
> > there too. Might be able to correlate behaviors that would be
> > harder with the disparate tools.
> > 
> The three packages you mention all would appear to be part of the
> same ecosystem.
> 
> Am looking at these as an option. Any other option to suggest?
> 
> TIA
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200211/d1fb4381/attachment.htm>

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Tue Feb 11 18:36:42 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2020 18:36:42 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] info request
In-Reply-To: <1581457568.3215.19.camel@pureice.com>
References: <CAPpdf5-EX17Us6t1nKmZP5oeJ=bZF_zF4bPM-XkGLe6i47_q0Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+NSeSrmm5MR5_dcCWFzKyPEtOUuMmT6X+eWN8quq15Bxg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59P1HuMV2UqaRrKx0vq5zbBjy7-4_PuWs5ePYEj2sDn0g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f0324a40-7d0f-5494-640e-60b8358a19c1@iexposure.com>
 <CAPpdf58x2-VaDGMbNfE+mV-Otcf8utFf26noNi_rrgBykg+_VA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+PUQEF0d9ofMicK+VFUPvXHmWGTm4U2uTaCxOp_wcThKw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59Vuu-KcmKt11oEOECn9rYvWq0WfwSo_x4HKe8i1-Fa1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAJt84+Oki-Ycct=068hm-3fD0F4ebhBn-_MMQoa9So29FeOT-A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E6EC1BEC-A73E-4708-87C1-56C549935358@gmail.com>
 <CAPpdf59J3QJgfXN-5TAD8c5mzpqtuwJXYsgQsmUhiQF8ksm9fA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1581457568.3215.19.camel@pureice.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf58OOU3qE8FGkRrdfhs9kMK2mYn_ZKqM+D87yuNhtn6d-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 3:46 PM r hayman <rhayman at pureice.com> wrote:
>
> While I'm not familiar with OpenWRT, but since it's linux, it probably has the built in capability to capture traffic out of the box.
>
>  I'd start by looking at the destination IP addresses, protocols (UDP/TCP), and the destination ports.
>
> /var/log/ufw.log (if OpenWRT uses ufw), /var/log/syslog, or wherever it logs traffic to
>
> MAC = which LAN device traffic originates from if not statically assigned via DHCP
> DST = destination IP
> SRC = your LAN IP device (makes things easy if you statically assign via DHCP)
> PROTO = protocol
> DPT = destination port the device is trying to connect to
>
> use nslookup on the $DST
> google search "port $DPT"
>
> If you have a specific manufacturer's brand device, search for which ports they use - Apple uses https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202944
>
> I have all pre-defined DHCP static addresses, and rules in my firewall/router that (a), block all incoming connections, (b) block all outgoing connections - except for those I define either by source, destination, protocol, or destination port number. This is heavy-handed restrictions on the outgoing side that requires maintenance but nothing escapes my LAN without me specifying it explicitly.
>
>
I think this last is exactly what I'm trying to work toward.
Trying to figure out what is causing traffic 'x' when I'm not using
the hardware myself.

Thanks for the ideas!!!

From eng at pinenet.com  Sun Feb 16 22:30:41 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sun, 16 Feb 2020 22:30:41 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] Automotive automation.
Message-ID: <7ad7a9f1-cd13-89fa-9b8b-1dc9b3397092@pinenet.com>

I'm sure all the arrogant geniuses in this group already know all this 
old stuff. So please allow somebody eager to learn the chance.

I've enjoyed the Atmel microcontroller learning resources for decades. 
Their CAN, UART, programming tools, derivatives like Arduino, etc. are 
enormous. Yes, Atmel is now "Microchip."

This Youtube car repair video might enlighten others, like it did me, 
how far, how commonplace, how important local motherboard system control 
has become

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEThPhO6MxY

Yes, there are many other videos like it, and it is old stuff, just to 
preempt the experts. But it remains important. And for a group that 
can't yet solder proto boards, the video might reveal how far out of the 
technology game we have become. I don't know why Linux would not be the 
unrivaled leader in such automation, when the electric grid is being 
re-invented globally.

Somebody emailed me that we need to compete with China on 5G internet. 
Without answering, I thought, "Who's WE?"

From admin at lctn.org  Fri Feb 21 08:45:54 2020
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:45:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] usb com ports
Message-ID: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>

I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com port, but it doesn't. 

ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the usb port a com port in this case? 

Ubuntu 18.04.3 LTS 

Raymond Norton 
LCTN 
952.955.7766 
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200221/9367fd00/attachment.htm>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Fri Feb 21 11:34:48 2020
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 17:34:48 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] usb com ports
In-Reply-To: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>
References: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <20200221173448.GA20285@nobelware.com>

> 
> I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com port, but it doesn't. 
>

Not particularly clear on what this means, where the USB is, etc. But, if you
are going USB-serial with an FTDi based chip (on the cable), Linux will see
it immediately as a "COM port" and setup a /dev/ttySx for it. (The device
permissions will be as the distro decides, etc.)
 
> ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the usb port a com port in this case? 
> 

USB ports cannot just act as COM ports. They need the kernel to treat
whatever is attached to that USB port as a device with an associated driver.
If you plug a USB device to a running Linux kernel it will find it, and if
it is a healthy one it should show up  with 'lsusb', like this:

iznogoud% lsusb
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 0bda:0328 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. 
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 006: ID 413c:2011 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 413c:1005 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard Hub
Bus 001 Device 007: ID 0424:4060 Standard Microsystems Corp. Ultra Fast Media Reader
Bus 001 Device 005: ID 0424:2640 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0424:2514 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 0461:4d51 Primax Electronics, Ltd 0Y357C PMX-MMOCZUL (B) [Dell Laser Mouse]
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
iznogoud% 


From admin at lctn.org  Fri Feb 21 11:48:08 2020
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:48:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] usb com ports
In-Reply-To: <20200221173448.GA20285@nobelware.com>
References: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>
 <20200221173448.GA20285@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <1345213618.40917.1582307288399.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>

On my laptop, if I connect a USB cable to an arduino board, it shows up as a com port under arduino tools. On the Kingdel, it does not. Of course the laptop does not have any actual serial ports-just the usb port.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Iznogoud" <iznogoud at nobelware.com>
To: "tclug-list" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 11:34:48 AM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] usb com ports

> 
> I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com port, but it doesn't. 
>

Not particularly clear on what this means, where the USB is, etc. But, if you
are going USB-serial with an FTDi based chip (on the cable), Linux will see
it immediately as a "COM port" and setup a /dev/ttySx for it. (The device
permissions will be as the distro decides, etc.)
 
> ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the usb port a com port in this case? 
> 

USB ports cannot just act as COM ports. They need the kernel to treat
whatever is attached to that USB port as a device with an associated driver.
If you plug a USB device to a running Linux kernel it will find it, and if
it is a healthy one it should show up  with 'lsusb', like this:

iznogoud% lsusb
Bus 002 Device 002: ID 0bda:0328 Realtek Semiconductor Corp. 
Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
Bus 001 Device 006: ID 413c:2011 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard
Bus 001 Device 004: ID 413c:1005 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard Hub
Bus 001 Device 007: ID 0424:4060 Standard Microsystems Corp. Ultra Fast Media Reader
Bus 001 Device 005: ID 0424:2640 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0424:2514 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
Bus 001 Device 002: ID 0461:4d51 Primax Electronics, Ltd 0Y357C PMX-MMOCZUL (B) [Dell Laser Mouse]
Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
iznogoud% 

_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Feb 21 13:40:20 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 13:40:20 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] usb com ports
In-Reply-To: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>
References: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>
Message-ID: <e0a4eaee-7295-766c-0946-57ef12b5c28b@pinenet.com>

If you allow me to talk from memory and a very little digging in my Web 
Browser Archives, may I say you are very right for looking into this.

First, below is text copied from an ATMEL Application Note PDF file 
without a number, but with the shown title. There are many others like 
it on the same topic.

USB
Microcontrollers
Application Note


Migrating from RS-232 to USB Bridge
Specification
Doc Control
Rev
  Purpose of Modifications
0.0
  Creation date
1.0
  updates
Date
24 Nov 2003
22 Dec 2003
References
•
  Universal Serial Bus Specification, revision 2.0
•
  Universal Serial Bus Class Definition for Communication Devices, 
version 1.1
•
  USB CDC demo firmware
Abbreviations
•
  USB: Universal Serial Bus
•
  CDC: Communication Device Class
•
  ACM: Abstract Control Model
•
  VID: Vendor Identifier
•
  PID: Product Identifier

The Arduino shows up as "/dev/ttyACM(X) when attached to Linux via USB, 
and behaves just like a terminal port. It does not have all 8 serial 
lines active , but does use 2 simulated flow control lines to switch the 
Arduino into program mode.


Going further to confuse and encourage you, "Bluetooth" wireless devices 
were originally invented to remove the wires of the PC serial ports. And 
seem to parallel the USB development path.

Look for /dev/ttyACM0. Add your user to the group "dialout" IIRC. And 
have a lot of fun with Arduino and Linux.

admin at lctn.org wrote:
> I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am
> working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com
> port, but it doesn't.
>
> ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the
> usb port a com port in this case?
>
> Ubuntu 18.04.3 LTS
>
> Raymond Norton
> LCTN
> 952.955.7766
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From n0nas at amsat.org  Sat Feb 22 00:27:08 2020
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Doug Reed)
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2020 00:27:08 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 182, Issue 17
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1582308001.15645.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1582308001.15645.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <CAL+RLOTgDHVQQUbsWWV2q63v5tWHQAuqVcuf5VEXeM-yGz1J6g@mail.gmail.com>

I see multiple Kingdel Fanless Mini-desktop computers on Amazon,
usually with Windows 10. Have you tried looking at the Kingdel site to
see if they provide drivers to use with the device on Linux? Possibly
Kingdel got creative with the hardware they use to run the serial
ports and generic Linux doesn't recognize the hardware? Just a guess.
I'd expect Linux to recognize anything that was remotely normal
hardware.

Doug.



On 2/21/20, tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
<tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org> wrote:
> Send tclug-list mailing list submissions to
> 	tclug-list at mn-linux.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	tclug-list-request at mn-linux.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	tclug-list-owner at mn-linux.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of tclug-list digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. usb com ports (admin at lctn.org)
>    2. Re: usb com ports (Iznogoud)
>    3. Re: usb com ports (admin at lctn.org)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 08:45:54 -0600 (CST)
> From: admin at lctn.org
> To: tclug-list <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: [tclug-list] usb com ports
> Message-ID: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra at lctn.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am
> working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com port,
> but it doesn't.
>
> ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the usb
> port a com port in this case?
>
> Ubuntu 18.04.3 LTS
>
> Raymond Norton
> LCTN
> 952.955.7766
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:
> <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200221/9367fd00/attachment-0001.htm>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 17:34:48 +0000
> From: Iznogoud <iznogoud at nobelware.com>
> To: TCLUG Mailing List <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] usb com ports
> Message-ID: <20200221173448.GA20285 at nobelware.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>>
>> I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am
>> working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com port,
>> but it doesn't.
>>
>
> Not particularly clear on what this means, where the USB is, etc. But, if
> you
> are going USB-serial with an FTDi based chip (on the cable), Linux will see
> it immediately as a "COM port" and setup a /dev/ttySx for it. (The device
> permissions will be as the distro decides, etc.)
>
>> ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the usb
>> port a com port in this case?
>>
>
> USB ports cannot just act as COM ports. They need the kernel to treat
> whatever is attached to that USB port as a device with an associated driver.
> If you plug a USB device to a running Linux kernel it will find it, and if
> it is a healthy one it should show up  with 'lsusb', like this:
>
> iznogoud% lsusb
> Bus 002 Device 002: ID 0bda:0328 Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
> Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
> Bus 001 Device 006: ID 413c:2011 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard
> Bus 001 Device 004: ID 413c:1005 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard
> Hub
> Bus 001 Device 007: ID 0424:4060 Standard Microsystems Corp. Ultra Fast
> Media Reader
> Bus 001 Device 005: ID 0424:2640 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
> Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0424:2514 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
> Bus 001 Device 002: ID 0461:4d51 Primax Electronics, Ltd 0Y357C PMX-MMOCZUL
> (B) [Dell Laser Mouse]
> Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
> iznogoud%
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 11:48:08 -0600 (CST)
> From: admin at lctn.org
> To: iznogoud at nobelware.com, tclug-list <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] usb com ports
> Message-ID: <1345213618.40917.1582307288399.JavaMail.zimbra at lctn.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> On my laptop, if I connect a USB cable to an arduino board, it shows up as a
> com port under arduino tools. On the Kingdel, it does not. Of course the
> laptop does not have any actual serial ports-just the usb port.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Iznogoud" <iznogoud at nobelware.com>
> To: "tclug-list" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 11:34:48 AM
> Subject: Re: [tclug-list] usb com ports
>
>>
>> I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am
>> working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com port,
>> but it doesn't.
>>
>
> Not particularly clear on what this means, where the USB is, etc. But, if
> you
> are going USB-serial with an FTDi based chip (on the cable), Linux will see
> it immediately as a "COM port" and setup a /dev/ttySx for it. (The device
> permissions will be as the distro decides, etc.)
>
>> ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the usb
>> port a com port in this case?
>>
>
> USB ports cannot just act as COM ports. They need the kernel to treat
> whatever is attached to that USB port as a device with an associated driver.
> If you plug a USB device to a running Linux kernel it will find it, and if
> it is a healthy one it should show up  with 'lsusb', like this:
>
> iznogoud% lsusb
> Bus 002 Device 002: ID 0bda:0328 Realtek Semiconductor Corp.
> Bus 002 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0003 Linux Foundation 3.0 root hub
> Bus 001 Device 006: ID 413c:2011 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard
> Bus 001 Device 004: ID 413c:1005 Dell Computer Corp. Multimedia Pro Keyboard
> Hub
> Bus 001 Device 007: ID 0424:4060 Standard Microsystems Corp. Ultra Fast
> Media Reader
> Bus 001 Device 005: ID 0424:2640 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
> Bus 001 Device 003: ID 0424:2514 Standard Microsystems Corp. USB 2.0 Hub
> Bus 001 Device 002: ID 0461:4d51 Primax Electronics, Ltd 0Y357C PMX-MMOCZUL
> (B) [Dell Laser Mouse]
> Bus 001 Device 001: ID 1d6b:0002 Linux Foundation 2.0 root hub
> iznogoud%
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of tclug-list Digest, Vol 182, Issue 17
> *******************************************
>


-- 
I vote the Second Amendment FIRST!

The things they do not tell you are usually the clue to solving the problem.

From admin at lctn.org  Mon Feb 24 07:49:37 2020
From: admin at lctn.org (admin at lctn.org)
Date: Mon, 24 Feb 2020 07:49:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [tclug-list] usb com ports
In-Reply-To: <e0a4eaee-7295-766c-0946-57ef12b5c28b@pinenet.com>
References: <952639221.40745.1582296354063.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>
 <e0a4eaee-7295-766c-0946-57ef12b5c28b@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <865882228.42281.1582552177133.JavaMail.zimbra@lctn.org>

It turns out that USB ports on the front of the Kingdel show up as available serial ports. Ports on the back do not. That works for me.

Thanks for the responses.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Engebretson" <eng at pinenet.com>
To: "tclug-list" <tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2020 1:40:20 PM
Subject: Re: [tclug-list] usb com ports

If you allow me to talk from memory and a very little digging in my Web 
Browser Archives, may I say you are very right for looking into this.

First, below is text copied from an ATMEL Application Note PDF file 
without a number, but with the shown title. There are many others like 
it on the same topic.

USB
Microcontrollers
Application Note


Migrating from RS-232 to USB Bridge
Specification
Doc Control
Rev
  Purpose of Modifications
0.0
  Creation date
1.0
  updates
Date
24 Nov 2003
22 Dec 2003
References
•
  Universal Serial Bus Specification, revision 2.0
•
  Universal Serial Bus Class Definition for Communication Devices, 
version 1.1
•
  USB CDC demo firmware
Abbreviations
•
  USB: Universal Serial Bus
•
  CDC: Communication Device Class
•
  ACM: Abstract Control Model
•
  VID: Vendor Identifier
•
  PID: Product Identifier

The Arduino shows up as "/dev/ttyACM(X) when attached to Linux via USB, 
and behaves just like a terminal port. It does not have all 8 serial 
lines active , but does use 2 simulated flow control lines to switch the 
Arduino into program mode.


Going further to confuse and encourage you, "Bluetooth" wireless devices 
were originally invented to remove the wires of the PC serial ports. And 
seem to parallel the USB development path.

Look for /dev/ttyACM0. Add your user to the group "dialout" IIRC. And 
have a lot of fun with Arduino and Linux.

admin at lctn.org wrote:
> I have a little kingdel box that has 5 actual, 9 pin serial ports. I am
> working with arduino and need my active usb port to show up as a com
> port, but it doesn't.
>
> ls /dev/tty* does not list any usb devices. Is there a way to make the
> usb port a com port in this case?
>
> Ubuntu 18.04.3 LTS
>
> Raymond Norton
> LCTN
> 952.955.7766
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
_______________________________________________
TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
tclug-list at mn-linux.org
http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Wed Feb 26 18:57:32 2020
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2020 18:57:32 -0600
Subject: [tclug-list] headset
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9Ajf0MAreD6jQ8GiSYU3dXW5z0yGN94LY0Vrqkya4AKTA@mail.gmail.com>

offhand i bet
comfortable
high quality sound
wireless
no delay or very tiny delay
works with ubuntu
works with android
works with youtube
works with google voice
works with zoom et al
is too many requirements for any headset but just thought i'd ask
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://mailman.mn-linux.org/pipermail/tclug-list/attachments/20200226/036130f1/attachment.htm>