From eng at pinenet.com  Wed Jul  1 08:07:06 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 08:07:06 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Xtra-PC linux
Message-ID: <a511af23-b7c8-c81f-a575-7e89a71e4f9e@pinenet.com>

certainly seems like a boost for Linux. I haven't tried it, and only 
just learned about it. Should take the fear out of trying Linux.

From rclarksean at arvig.net  Wed Jul  1 12:41:45 2020
From: rclarksean at arvig.net (Randy Clarksean)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:41:45 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Experience with secure Linux Distros?
Message-ID: <857c92db-772e-999c-7db6-9bb07b843d7d@arvig.net>

Anyone have experience with any of the supposedly "secure" Linux distros 
out there? Like PureOS or others?

I am looking at upgrading my laptop in the next 3-6 months. Ideally, I 
would like to encrypt the drives, start using a VPN with it, and have 
the distro itself be "secure." I have proprietary and confidential 
client data (new product designs, IP, patents, etc.) which I want to 
protect as fully as possible.

Looking for any comments on the pros and cons you have personally seen 
for a particular distro.

Thanks in advance.


Randy

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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Wed Jul  1 22:17:28 2020
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 22:17:28 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Experience with secure Linux Distros?
In-Reply-To: <857c92db-772e-999c-7db6-9bb07b843d7d@arvig.net>
References: <857c92db-772e-999c-7db6-9bb07b843d7d@arvig.net>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9A6Ws2bMRtsZd4PfTdueh3AXnQ9=nqfd9-VpsdjrTWdSA@mail.gmail.com>

as answers roll in i would love to also know whether the same aspects of
security can easily be achieved with *ubuntu.  certainly drive encryption
and vpn can.  i've tried various distros for various reasons but when i'm
derailed by something that doesn't work i end up back in *ubuntu.


On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:30 PM Randy Clarksean <rclarksean at arvig.net> wrote:

> Anyone have experience with any of the supposedly "secure" Linux distros
> out there? Like PureOS or others?
>
> I am looking at upgrading my laptop in the next 3-6 months. Ideally, I
> would like to encrypt the drives, start using a VPN with it, and have the
> distro itself be "secure." I have proprietary and confidential client data
> (new product designs, IP, patents, etc.) which I want to protect as fully
> as possible.
>
> Looking for any comments on the pros and cons you have personally seen for
> a particular distro.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> Randy
>
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From eng at pinenet.com  Thu Jul  2 05:11:14 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 05:11:14 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Experience with secure Linux Distros?
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9A6Ws2bMRtsZd4PfTdueh3AXnQ9=nqfd9-VpsdjrTWdSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <857c92db-772e-999c-7db6-9bb07b843d7d@arvig.net>
 <CAD+dB9A6Ws2bMRtsZd4PfTdueh3AXnQ9=nqfd9-VpsdjrTWdSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6f69309f-4d0f-3c19-81f7-1e3ec26a3217@pinenet.com>

Maybe a voice from a separate reality can be helpful. Having recently 
re-watched DVD movies of "Dr. Zhivago" (1965), "Woodstock" (1970), and 
"Imagine: John Lennon" (1988), I gained a lot of confidence I'm not 
simply a crazy old man in this new era.

First, I've never owned a laptop or smartphone. I don't know why people 
wander around with wifi connected devices carrying precious info they 
want secure. Some day I hope somebody re-invents an actual mobile 
telephone I can use to call AAA if I get a flat tire.

So I'll mention the obvious; Suse Enterprise and Red Hat Enterprise. I 
really think you and many others in this group are serious Linux experts 
and might benefit from professional distros.

Last, I'll suggest the old fashioned "pull the plug" security strategy. 
If the precious machine's power is unplugged and the ethernet cable is 
unplugged, data is secure. Further, if your data is on a separate hard 
drive from the OS and you edit the file /etc/fstab you can unplug the 
hard drive until needed and then mount the drive using a secure root 
password.

Ya, it might all sound silly simple minded. Freedom, love and peace from 
the green generation.



gregrwm wrote:
> as answers roll in i would love to also know whether the same aspects of
> security can easily be achieved with *ubuntu.  certainly drive
> encryption and vpn can.  i've tried various distros for various reasons
> but when i'm derailed by something that doesn't work i end up back in
> *ubuntu.
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:30 PM Randy Clarksean <rclarksean at arvig.net
> <mailto:rclarksean at arvig.net>> wrote:
>
>     Anyone have experience with any of the supposedly "secure" Linux
>     distros out there? Like PureOS or others?
>
>     I am looking at upgrading my laptop in the next 3-6 months. Ideally,
>     I would like to encrypt the drives, start using a VPN with it, and
>     have the distro itself be "secure." I have proprietary and
>     confidential client data (new product designs, IP, patents, etc.)
>     which I want to protect as fully as possible.
>
>     Looking for any comments on the pros and cons you have personally
>     seen for a particular distro.
>
>     Thanks in advance.
>
>     Randy
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From o1bigtenor at gmail.com  Thu Jul  2 07:23:41 2020
From: o1bigtenor at gmail.com (o1bigtenor)
Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 07:23:41 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Experience with secure Linux Distros?
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9A6Ws2bMRtsZd4PfTdueh3AXnQ9=nqfd9-VpsdjrTWdSA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <857c92db-772e-999c-7db6-9bb07b843d7d@arvig.net>
 <CAD+dB9A6Ws2bMRtsZd4PfTdueh3AXnQ9=nqfd9-VpsdjrTWdSA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAPpdf58yNwXV9yMQ-5qrRUgkEQSjvWHbFYxDssTR=UmCB0-OAw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 10:18 PM gregrwm <tclug1 at whitleymott.net> wrote:
>
> as answers roll in i would love to also know whether the same aspects of security can easily be achieved with *ubuntu.  certainly drive encryption and vpn can.  i've tried various distros for various reasons but when i'm derailed by something that doesn't work i end up back in *ubuntu.
>
I found when using snapd and LXD that *buntu has moved to where
their prefered system setup was to force upgrades to software on
*buntu's schedule and the devil take the issues with the latest and
greatest. As that became clear I was forced to drop the use of LXD
as useful technologies. IMO this removed *buntu from use as a serious
 at least server distro and it is highly unlikely that I would ever use it for
any reason as a result.

From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Jul 24 08:28:10 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 08:28:10 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seems to be huge computer opportunity
Message-ID: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>

developing online school curriculum. Since the existing school model 
can't figure out how to educate in this modern environment, maybe some 
innovative Linux users can help.

My perspective is shaped over a long lifetime. During the Sputnik scare 
the best students were given every opportunity less well funded school 
systems could provide. As schools devolved into zookeepers and 
adolescent bone crushing sports sponsors, academics collapsed. Trying to 
get teachers to teach computer programming on the Window 9X platform met 
absolute resistance while my kids were in high school.

But as someone who once studied advanced science, I see great teaching 
resources broadcast on PBS. Even a current broadcast commercial channel 
called Quest is a great teacher.

We can't abandon children, even if our contemptible politicians have.

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Fri Jul 24 12:36:07 2020
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 17:36:07 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Seems to be huge computer opportunity
In-Reply-To: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>
References: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <20200724173607.GB28798@nobelware.com>

Second on the "we cannot abandon children". What happens today will shape
a generation, or part of a generation. Opportunity and peril are both ahead.
Use caution; the politics can be deadly.

I think that technology can be tailored to the needs of the generation that
is in schools right now, but for also other generations that need to be able to
be productive from a distance. The key innovations may not even be technical
or technological at all. I think that a book I recently finished, Peter Thiel's
"Zero To One," asks all the right questions --albeit from a capitalist, money
making perspective-- that can frame the path to building a future that is
more compatible to our new reality. I guess I see this as an ooportunity to
find opportunities.


From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Jul 24 15:02:34 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 15:02:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seems to be huge computer opportunity
In-Reply-To: <20200724173607.GB28798@nobelware.com>
References: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>
 <20200724173607.GB28798@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <86afe230-bc3d-1a48-c0a9-88e7783f49b3@pinenet.com>

I am thrilled you took the time to think about and answer this appeal. 
Like everybody else here, you are smarter than me so I think about your 
comments a while.

But I will say, I spoke with several representative of relevant big 
shots and made a few points. First, none ever heard of linux and its 
free open source sophisticated status. Also, none ever heard of 
Raspberry Pi, mostly made in England, costing about $50.

So the political talk of online education is dead at conception unless 
somebody rakes out at least $billions for whatever the Chinese cartel 
cooks up. Or the big shots could learn a very small fraction of what 
this group knows.

Sadly, as you imply, big shots are a dangerous breed. No school is just 
beyond my thinking.


Iznogoud wrote:
> Second on the "we cannot abandon children". What happens today will shape
> a generation, or part of a generation. Opportunity and peril are both ahead.
> Use caution; the politics can be deadly.
>
> I think that technology can be tailored to the needs of the generation that
> is in schools right now, but for also other generations that need to be able to
> be productive from a distance. The key innovations may not even be technical
> or technological at all. I think that a book I recently finished, Peter Thiel's
> "Zero To One," asks all the right questions --albeit from a capitalist, money
> making perspective-- that can frame the path to building a future that is
> more compatible to our new reality. I guess I see this as an ooportunity to
> find opportunities.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Fri Jul 24 16:58:29 2020
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 21:58:29 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Seems to be huge computer opportunity
In-Reply-To: <86afe230-bc3d-1a48-c0a9-88e7783f49b3@pinenet.com>
References: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>
 <20200724173607.GB28798@nobelware.com>
 <86afe230-bc3d-1a48-c0a9-88e7783f49b3@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <20200724215829.GA14770@nobelware.com>

Unfortunately only some bleeding-edge segments of the US government have
embraced Linux (I am thinking 3-4 letter agencies). The mainstrea rests on
mostly Microsoft products and unfortunately the Windows OS flavours. I am
guessing that there is a healthy amount of lobbying to keep things this way.

The open-source alternatives should be lobbied for in governments, and the
barrier has to be overcome. It is not just that the responsibility rests on
the Linux community to make it look and act more like Windows, it is that
the investment has to be made by people to get out of their comfort zone
and learn new things. So, it is both. Perhaps we can find creative ways to
reel them in, educate, and make them preach this gospel. Food for thought.

Not sure if there is a class in junior-high that is about computers and
includes some aspect of familiarizing kids with non-popular types of
computing. Maybe there should be some command-line work, like when I grew up.


From kaze0010 at umn.edu  Fri Jul 24 19:06:05 2020
From: kaze0010 at umn.edu (Haudy Kazemi)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:06:05 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seems to be huge computer opportunity
In-Reply-To: <20200724215829.GA14770@nobelware.com>
References: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>
 <20200724173607.GB28798@nobelware.com>
 <86afe230-bc3d-1a48-c0a9-88e7783f49b3@pinenet.com>
 <20200724215829.GA14770@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <CACs6+uW0V8fX1zo5g8zA1XB50zf1erZk+JRPLxexyDd46EpePQ@mail.gmail.com>

There are good open source tools out there...I use several and am thankful
for them. Sometimes they are the best, most flexible tool available. OTOH,
we need to remember that this is not always the case.

OpenOffice/LibreOffice is a poster child of this situation. It still does
not have a built-in remove duplicates function. Extensions aren't a
reliable solution as they come and go. Remove duplicates is a very easy to
use feature, accessible to users of many skill levels. It is found in MS
Excel and Google Sheets. Yes, there are ways to create similar
functionality via formulas, but nothing as accessible as highlight cells
and click on a 'Remove Duplicates' button. A few web searches show users
were looking for this feature back in 2010, and I am sure it was requested
before that time too.

>From the perspective of advanced spreadsheet users, the lack of something
that works like the Excel Tables functionality is a big gap. This is a very
powerful alternative to traditional Row#-ColumnX referencing. It allows for
easier and more reliable analysis of datasets by making formulas,
references more dynamic than is possible with traditional RC referencing.
It fills a gap between traditional spreadsheets and databases (spreadsheet
formulas and cells provide a more of a 'visual' way to work with data in
contrast to SQL).

---
On open-source issues:

The issue with open-source solutions is not with the underlying
architecture (MacOS, iOS, and Android are all Unix-like under the hood) or
with the philosophy. The issue is with:

1.) presentation (UI usability, which includes how performance scales
across various hardware and missing but basic features, and UI stability,
which includes how the system behaves with runaway apps)

2.) hardware and accessory compatibility. IMO, this seems to be a
noticeably lesser problem than in the past. Also, many accessory devices
are manageable via browser-based UIs over networks rather than needed USB
connections and matching drivers.

3.) Whether discoverable application software is available that can do
*everything* the person regularly did while using the prior solution.
Obscure, nondiscoverable software adds friction. Renaming software between
every distro adds friction. Should users need to relearn the name of all
their common tools for each distro? I have seen browers renamed, file
managers renamed, even calculators renamed. Some things shouldn't be
renamed.

To get a person to replace an existing solution, the new solution must be
equal or better than the old solution in every way that matters to that
user. Or the person must be willing to accept whatever the compromises are
with changing solutions.

[I see parallels to how people evaluate moving from a gasoline car to an
all-electric car. Moving to a short-range electric vehicle requires more
compromises than moving to a long range Tesla Model 3 (which has Linux
running its UI), backed by the national Tesla vehicle charging network.
Network effects in real life.]

---
On performance:

My experience with Android is it does a very good job, on par with Windows,
in dealing with processes that become very memory or CPU hungry. The
systems tend to stay responsive (may lag slightly, but usable), and
recoverable (task managers can still be brought up), even under extreme
memory and CPU pressure. I have yet to find a desktop Linux distro that can
do nearly as well. Chrome and Firefox both easily get into 100% CPU usage
and high memory usage situations that I don't experience on Android or
Windows.

If anyone knows of a distro that does as good as a job at maintaining
resource control and desktop responsiveness under heavy load as Android or
Windows, I would love to hear about it.


On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 16:58 Iznogoud <iznogoud at nobelware.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately only some bleeding-edge segments of the US government have
> embraced Linux (I am thinking 3-4 letter agencies). The mainstrea rests on
> mostly Microsoft products and unfortunately the Windows OS flavours. I am
> guessing that there is a healthy amount of lobbying to keep things this
> way.
>
> The open-source alternatives should be lobbied for in governments, and the
> barrier has to be overcome. It is not just that the responsibility rests on
> the Linux community to make it look and act more like Windows, it is that
> the investment has to be made by people to get out of their comfort zone
> and learn new things. So, it is both. Perhaps we can find creative ways to
> reel them in, educate, and make them preach this gospel. Food for thought.
>
> Not sure if there is a class in junior-high that is about computers and
> includes some aspect of familiarizing kids with non-popular types of
> computing. Maybe there should be some command-line work, like when I grew
> up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Jul 24 19:18:12 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:18:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seems to be huge computer opportunity
In-Reply-To: <20200724215829.GA14770@nobelware.com>
References: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>
 <20200724173607.GB28798@nobelware.com>
 <86afe230-bc3d-1a48-c0a9-88e7783f49b3@pinenet.com>
 <20200724215829.GA14770@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <ad808f75-9097-b88d-a8a4-4bd37c6e17e5@pinenet.com>

I'm not the person to offer new ideas. Things are changing where I live, 
but I kid you not, I just got insulted by an octogenarian who thinks 
he's top dog because he fixed his Model A Ford and 1975 lawn tractor.

I started college in the slide rule era, learned computers with punch 
cards, and traveled between U of M libraries in St. Paul and Minneapolis 
reading research articles hidden in huge books. Funny to think 
Psychology 101 was a movie at Northrup Auditorium filling 2,000 seats.

Imagine competitive learning content. Imagine innovative learning 
environments. Imagine affordable, quality education. I think John Lennon 
said that.

I'm not the person to offer new ideas. But the system is broken and 
needs new ideas. And Linux and Raspberry Pi is only a secret to our 
octogenarian political class.

Iznogoud wrote:
> Unfortunately only some bleeding-edge segments of the US government have
> embraced Linux (I am thinking 3-4 letter agencies). The mainstrea rests on
> mostly Microsoft products and unfortunately the Windows OS flavours. I am
> guessing that there is a healthy amount of lobbying to keep things this way.
>
> The open-source alternatives should be lobbied for in governments, and the
> barrier has to be overcome. It is not just that the responsibility rests on
> the Linux community to make it look and act more like Windows, it is that
> the investment has to be made by people to get out of their comfort zone
> and learn new things. So, it is both. Perhaps we can find creative ways to
> reel them in, educate, and make them preach this gospel. Food for thought.
>
> Not sure if there is a class in junior-high that is about computers and
> includes some aspect of familiarizing kids with non-popular types of
> computing. Maybe there should be some command-line work, like when I grew up.
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From eng at pinenet.com  Fri Jul 24 19:53:24 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 19:53:24 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Seems to be huge computer opportunity
In-Reply-To: <CACs6+uW0V8fX1zo5g8zA1XB50zf1erZk+JRPLxexyDd46EpePQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <d33fbd4b-0389-c9c5-975c-eaf0432b3056@pinenet.com>
 <20200724173607.GB28798@nobelware.com>
 <86afe230-bc3d-1a48-c0a9-88e7783f49b3@pinenet.com>
 <20200724215829.GA14770@nobelware.com>
 <CACs6+uW0V8fX1zo5g8zA1XB50zf1erZk+JRPLxexyDd46EpePQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45a182b9-b37e-1953-dcc8-28a227a5241e@pinenet.com>

I would very much enjoy learning from your sophisticated analysis. You 
have a lot of knowledge to share and discuss. Please don't consider this 
a rude request, but perhaps you could begin a new thread.

I'm just a Linux only bumpkin. And as my original post suggests, I rely 
on Linux to learn about the far bigger world.

Please, open a great new discussion thread.


Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> There are good open source tools out there...I use several and am
> thankful for them. Sometimes they are the best, most flexible tool
> available. OTOH, we need to remember that this is not always the case.
>
> OpenOffice/LibreOffice is a poster child of this situation. It still
> does not have a built-in remove duplicates function. Extensions aren't a
> reliable solution as they come and go. Remove duplicates is a very easy
> to use feature, accessible to users of many skill levels. It is found in
> MS Excel and Google Sheets. Yes, there are ways to create similar
> functionality via formulas, but nothing as accessible as highlight cells
> and click on a 'Remove Duplicates' button. A few web searches show users
> were looking for this feature back in 2010, and I am sure it was
> requested before that time too.
>
> From the perspective of advanced spreadsheet users, the lack of
> something that works like the Excel Tables functionality is a big gap.
> This is a very powerful alternative to traditional Row#-ColumnX
> referencing. It allows for easier and more reliable analysis of datasets
> by making formulas, references more dynamic than is possible with
> traditional RC referencing. It fills a gap between traditional
> spreadsheets and databases (spreadsheet formulas and cells provide a
> more of a 'visual' way to work with data in contrast to SQL).
>
> ---
> On open-source issues:
>
> The issue with open-source solutions is not with the underlying
> architecture (MacOS, iOS, and Android are all Unix-like under the hood)
> or with the philosophy. The issue is with:
>
> 1.) presentation (UI usability, which includes how performance scales
> across various hardware and missing but basic features, and UI
> stability, which includes how the system behaves with runaway apps)
>
> 2.) hardware and accessory compatibility. IMO, this seems to be a
> noticeably lesser problem than in the past. Also, many accessory devices
> are manageable via browser-based UIs over networks rather than needed
> USB connections and matching drivers.
>
> 3.) Whether discoverable application software is available that can do
> *everything* the person regularly did while using the prior solution.
> Obscure, nondiscoverable software adds friction. Renaming software
> between every distro adds friction. Should users need to relearn the
> name of all their common tools for each distro? I have seen browers
> renamed, file managers renamed, even calculators renamed. Some things
> shouldn't be renamed.
>
> To get a person to replace an existing solution, the new solution must
> be equal or better than the old solution in every way that matters to
> that user. Or the person must be willing to accept whatever the
> compromises are with changing solutions.
>
> [I see parallels to how people evaluate moving from a gasoline car to an
> all-electric car. Moving to a short-range electric vehicle requires more
> compromises than moving to a long range Tesla Model 3 (which has Linux
> running its UI), backed by the national Tesla vehicle charging network.
> Network effects in real life.]
>
> ---
> On performance:
>
> My experience with Android is it does a very good job, on par with
> Windows, in dealing with processes that become very memory or CPU
> hungry. The systems tend to stay responsive (may lag slightly, but
> usable), and recoverable (task managers can still be brought up), even
> under extreme memory and CPU pressure. I have yet to find a desktop
> Linux distro that can do nearly as well. Chrome and Firefox both easily
> get into 100% CPU usage and high memory usage situations that I don't
> experience on Android or Windows.
>
> If anyone knows of a distro that does as good as a job at maintaining
> resource control and desktop responsiveness under heavy load as Android
> or Windows, I would love to hear about it.
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 24, 2020, 16:58 Iznogoud <iznogoud at nobelware.com
> <mailto:iznogoud at nobelware.com>> wrote:
>
>     Unfortunately only some bleeding-edge segments of the US government have
>     embraced Linux (I am thinking 3-4 letter agencies). The mainstrea
>     rests on
>     mostly Microsoft products and unfortunately the Windows OS flavours.
>     I am
>     guessing that there is a healthy amount of lobbying to keep things
>     this way.
>
>     The open-source alternatives should be lobbied for in governments,
>     and the
>     barrier has to be overcome. It is not just that the responsibility
>     rests on
>     the Linux community to make it look and act more like Windows, it is
>     that
>     the investment has to be made by people to get out of their comfort zone
>     and learn new things. So, it is both. Perhaps we can find creative
>     ways to
>     reel them in, educate, and make them preach this gospel. Food for
>     thought.
>
>     Not sure if there is a class in junior-high that is about computers and
>     includes some aspect of familiarizing kids with non-popular types of
>     computing. Maybe there should be some command-line work, like when I
>     grew up.
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From kaze0010 at umn.edu  Sat Jul 25 13:48:58 2020
From: kaze0010 at umn.edu (Haudy Kazemi)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 13:48:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and CPU
 pressure
Message-ID: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>

Hello,

I am splitting this topic off from the other thread, hoping that someone
has a solution or recommendations.

My experience with Android and Windows is they both do a very good job in
dealing with processes that become very memory or CPU hungry. The systems
tend to stay responsive (may lag slightly, but usable), and recoverable
(task managers can still be brought up), even under extreme memory and CPU
pressure.

I have yet to find a desktop Linux distro that can do nearly as well.
Chrome and Firefox both easily get into 100% CPU usage and high memory
usage situations on desktop Linux, resulting in nonresponsive systems, that
I don't experience on Android or Windows. These situations are easy enough
to hit that even novice users can experience them with only a handful of
open tabs, depending on the sites open. (On the exact same hardware,
Windows can run the same browser with the same or even more tabs and
survive). With these problems, I find it hard to recommend Linux as a
general purpose desktop OS to others or even use it as my own desktop as my
daily driver. Linux seems to do okay when the upper bounds of the loads are
well-defined and easily fit within the available resources.

Does anyone know of a distro that does as good as a job at maintaining
resource control and desktop responsiveness under heavy load as Android or
Windows? I would love to hear about it.

Thanks,

-hk

P.S. a relevant article, "Yes, Linux Does Bad In Low RAM / Memory Pressure
Situations On The Desktop"
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Does-Bad-Low-RAM

P.P.S. It appears that Android uses pressure stall information (PSI) to
mitigate these problems per post
https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/general-discussion/1118164-yes-linux-does-bad-in-low-ram-memory-pressure-situations-on-the-desktop?p=1118174#post1118174
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From eng at pinenet.com  Sat Jul 25 21:29:58 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:29:58 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d1d0ae92-55aa-3702-c54b-6438fcef44d4@pinenet.com>

Thank for your courtesy and new thread.

Again, I'm quite a Linux computer bumpkin, so I'll just share my 
experience for your feedback input.

I use openSuSE linux, both 32 and 64 bit. My wife's laptop is 64 bit 
Windows 7, I have a Windows 7 32bit somewhere, too. The Windows 7 64 bit 
is all but useless, even after an expensive repair. My 64 bit openSuSE 
boxes mostly sit turned off.

My web client machine (this machine) is an old core2 duo 32 bit 4gB ram 
running openSuSE 13.2. My development boxes usually just run 
openSuse12.2 32bit with similar hardware.

The linux desktop was quite a pleasant surprise for me. I usually run 10 
virtual desktops, sometimes use a virtual terminal. This all runs with 
KDE or XFCE. I like XFCE because I can have dozens of open NEdit text 
editors organized and stable. Currently, I'm enjoying learning ever more 
about Tcl/Tk after over 20 years.

The KDE desktop installs with crazy amounts of "eye candy" and even has 
an "Activities Manager" adding yet another dimension of UI, most likely 
intended to fool your boss by quickly switching from playing to working. 
I usually unset the eye candy and set the OpenGL off and use XWindow 
rendering.

The only time I run a bunch of browser windows is on eBay or programming 
language HTML manual pages.

But all this said, I think you are likely right about Windows GUI 
efficiency. Professional video editors I know use Windows. Gamers love 
Windows.


Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am splitting this topic off from the other thread, hoping that someone
> has a solution or recommendations.
>
> My experience with Android and Windows is they both do a very good job
> in dealing with processes that become very memory or CPU hungry. The
> systems tend to stay responsive (may lag slightly, but usable), and
> recoverable (task managers can still be brought up), even under extreme
> memory and CPU pressure.
>
> I have yet to find a desktop Linux distro that can do nearly as well.
> Chrome and Firefox both easily get into 100% CPU usage and high memory
> usage situations on desktop Linux, resulting in nonresponsive systems,
> that I don't experience on Android or Windows. These situations are easy
> enough to hit that even novice users can experience them with only a
> handful of open tabs, depending on the sites open. (On the exact same
> hardware, Windows can run the same browser with the same or even more
> tabs and survive). With these problems, I find it hard to recommend
> Linux as a general purpose desktop OS to others or even use it as my own
> desktop as my daily driver. Linux seems to do okay when the upper bounds
> of the loads are well-defined and easily fit within the available resources.
>
> Does anyone know of a distro that does as good as a job at maintaining
> resource control and desktop responsiveness under heavy load as Android
> or Windows? I would love to hear about it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -hk
>
> P.S. a relevant article, "Yes, Linux Does Bad In Low RAM / Memory
> Pressure Situations On The Desktop"
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Does-Bad-Low-RAM
>
> P.P.S. It appears that Android uses pressure stall information (PSI) to
> mitigate these problems per
> post https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/general-discussion/1118164-yes-linux-does-bad-in-low-ram-memory-pressure-situations-on-the-desktop?p=1118174#post1118174
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From kaze0010 at umn.edu  Sun Jul 26 00:29:25 2020
From: kaze0010 at umn.edu (Haudy Kazemi)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 00:29:25 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <d1d0ae92-55aa-3702-c54b-6438fcef44d4@pinenet.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d1d0ae92-55aa-3702-c54b-6438fcef44d4@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <CACs6+uWAOavTOLLDRe5N_BR42deVDxCNUw9sseBQRMrUB=ef0Q@mail.gmail.com>

I haven't had problems when using Linux desktops in the way you have
described. Terminals and text editors are pretty low on resource reqs. I
have run the same kind of workloads on Win 7 and Win 10, with dozens of
command prompts. I have also had dozens of Python scripts running in
parallel in Windows command prompts, while also running hundreds of tabs in
Chrome or Firefox. I try to turn off the eye candy on all my desktop OSes.
I find the classic Windows 95/98/2000 style desktop UI to be the most
resource efficient, and to have best contrast for notification visibility.
I run 64 bit if the hardware supports it.


On Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 21:32 Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:

> Thank for your courtesy and new thread.
>
> Again, I'm quite a Linux computer bumpkin, so I'll just share my
> experience for your feedback input.
>
> I use openSuSE linux, both 32 and 64 bit. My wife's laptop is 64 bit
> Windows 7, I have a Windows 7 32bit somewhere, too. The Windows 7 64 bit
> is all but useless, even after an expensive repair. My 64 bit openSuSE
> boxes mostly sit turned off.
>
> My web client machine (this machine) is an old core2 duo 32 bit 4gB ram
> running openSuSE 13.2. My development boxes usually just run
> openSuse12.2 32bit with similar hardware.
>
> The linux desktop was quite a pleasant surprise for me. I usually run 10
> virtual desktops, sometimes use a virtual terminal. This all runs with
> KDE or XFCE. I like XFCE because I can have dozens of open NEdit text
> editors organized and stable. Currently, I'm enjoying learning ever more
> about Tcl/Tk after over 20 years.
>
> The KDE desktop installs with crazy amounts of "eye candy" and even has
> an "Activities Manager" adding yet another dimension of UI, most likely
> intended to fool your boss by quickly switching from playing to working.
> I usually unset the eye candy and set the OpenGL off and use XWindow
> rendering.
>
> The only time I run a bunch of browser windows is on eBay or programming
> language HTML manual pages.
>
> But all this said, I think you are likely right about Windows GUI
> efficiency. Professional video editors I know use Windows. Gamers love
> Windows.
>
>
> Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am splitting this topic off from the other thread, hoping that someone
> > has a solution or recommendations.
> >
> > My experience with Android and Windows is they both do a very good job
> > in dealing with processes that become very memory or CPU hungry. The
> > systems tend to stay responsive (may lag slightly, but usable), and
> > recoverable (task managers can still be brought up), even under extreme
> > memory and CPU pressure.
> >
> > I have yet to find a desktop Linux distro that can do nearly as well.
> > Chrome and Firefox both easily get into 100% CPU usage and high memory
> > usage situations on desktop Linux, resulting in nonresponsive systems,
> > that I don't experience on Android or Windows. These situations are easy
> > enough to hit that even novice users can experience them with only a
> > handful of open tabs, depending on the sites open. (On the exact same
> > hardware, Windows can run the same browser with the same or even more
> > tabs and survive). With these problems, I find it hard to recommend
> > Linux as a general purpose desktop OS to others or even use it as my own
> > desktop as my daily driver. Linux seems to do okay when the upper bounds
> > of the loads are well-defined and easily fit within the available
> resources.
> >
> > Does anyone know of a distro that does as good as a job at maintaining
> > resource control and desktop responsiveness under heavy load as Android
> > or Windows? I would love to hear about it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -hk
> >
> > P.S. a relevant article, "Yes, Linux Does Bad In Low RAM / Memory
> > Pressure Situations On The Desktop"
> >
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Does-Bad-Low-RAM
> >
> > P.P.S. It appears that Android uses pressure stall information (PSI) to
> > mitigate these problems per
> > post
> https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/general-discussion/1118164-yes-linux-does-bad-in-low-ram-memory-pressure-situations-on-the-desktop?p=1118174#post1118174
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From eng at pinenet.com  Sun Jul 26 07:34:43 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 07:34:43 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <CACs6+uWAOavTOLLDRe5N_BR42deVDxCNUw9sseBQRMrUB=ef0Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <d1d0ae92-55aa-3702-c54b-6438fcef44d4@pinenet.com>
 <CACs6+uWAOavTOLLDRe5N_BR42deVDxCNUw9sseBQRMrUB=ef0Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <482a52a0-f523-fe0b-e391-7f32b39e387c@pinenet.com>

Hello again, and thanks. Just a few things.

First, perhaps making the swap partition larger is helpful. Perhaps a 
large memory video card helps with some uses. Perhaps using a memory 
tester to find a needle in the haystack.

I've had some web sites really bog down, but I've heard the same from 
windows users. Sometimes I get a "script not responding" browser 
warning. Since some web sites love to punish you with advertising and 
tracking after they detect your OS and browser. Perhaps you should 
consider Linux browsers locking up a positive, not negative, feature. 
Firefox has a running report how much it has blocked, and it's a lot.

Some fun chatter with a fun computer explorer here. I found Windows ME 
with an NVidia TNT2 video card has great 1600x900 @60Hz graphics on the 
modern displays. I have played with FreeDOS, Borland TurboPascal, and 
QBasic, etc. Also, the Atmel AVRStudio 4 is a wonderful tool to learn 
microcontroller assembly language. Just never let Windows ME touch the 
internet.

Further, tk text widget GUI control can choose the blinking insert 
cursor to be a square block or line, and even how fast it blinks. As if 
it matters.

I run into farmers all the time bragging about BIG tractors, BIG land, 
but they don't mention BIG BIG DEBT. Same with many of today's punk kids 
with multi terabyte hard drives who must expect to live 500 years to use 
it all.

Thanks again. And please keep sharing your experiences.



Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> I haven't had problems when using Linux desktops in the way you have
> described. Terminals and text editors are pretty low on resource reqs. I
> have run the same kind of workloads on Win 7 and Win 10, with dozens of
> command prompts. I have also had dozens of Python scripts running in
> parallel in Windows command prompts, while also running hundreds of tabs
> in Chrome or Firefox. I try to turn off the eye candy on all my desktop
> OSes. I find the classic Windows 95/98/2000 style desktop UI to be the
> most resource efficient, and to have best contrast for notification
> visibility. I run 64 bit if the hardware supports it.
>
>
> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020, 21:32 Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com
> <mailto:eng at pinenet.com>> wrote:
>
>     Thank for your courtesy and new thread.
>
>     Again, I'm quite a Linux computer bumpkin, so I'll just share my
>     experience for your feedback input.
>
>     I use openSuSE linux, both 32 and 64 bit. My wife's laptop is 64 bit
>     Windows 7, I have a Windows 7 32bit somewhere, too. The Windows 7 64
>     bit
>     is all but useless, even after an expensive repair. My 64 bit openSuSE
>     boxes mostly sit turned off.
>
>     My web client machine (this machine) is an old core2 duo 32 bit 4gB ram
>     running openSuSE 13.2. My development boxes usually just run
>     openSuse12.2 32bit with similar hardware.
>
>     The linux desktop was quite a pleasant surprise for me. I usually
>     run 10
>     virtual desktops, sometimes use a virtual terminal. This all runs with
>     KDE or XFCE. I like XFCE because I can have dozens of open NEdit text
>     editors organized and stable. Currently, I'm enjoying learning ever
>     more
>     about Tcl/Tk after over 20 years.
>
>     The KDE desktop installs with crazy amounts of "eye candy" and even has
>     an "Activities Manager" adding yet another dimension of UI, most likely
>     intended to fool your boss by quickly switching from playing to
>     working.
>     I usually unset the eye candy and set the OpenGL off and use XWindow
>     rendering.
>
>     The only time I run a bunch of browser windows is on eBay or
>     programming
>     language HTML manual pages.
>
>     But all this said, I think you are likely right about Windows GUI
>     efficiency. Professional video editors I know use Windows. Gamers love
>     Windows.
>
>
>     Haudy Kazemi wrote:
>     > Hello,
>     >
>     > I am splitting this topic off from the other thread, hoping that
>     someone
>     > has a solution or recommendations.
>     >
>     > My experience with Android and Windows is they both do a very good job
>     > in dealing with processes that become very memory or CPU hungry. The
>     > systems tend to stay responsive (may lag slightly, but usable), and
>     > recoverable (task managers can still be brought up), even under
>     extreme
>     > memory and CPU pressure.
>     >
>     > I have yet to find a desktop Linux distro that can do nearly as well.
>     > Chrome and Firefox both easily get into 100% CPU usage and high memory
>     > usage situations on desktop Linux, resulting in nonresponsive systems,
>     > that I don't experience on Android or Windows. These situations
>     are easy
>     > enough to hit that even novice users can experience them with only a
>     > handful of open tabs, depending on the sites open. (On the exact same
>     > hardware, Windows can run the same browser with the same or even more
>     > tabs and survive). With these problems, I find it hard to recommend
>     > Linux as a general purpose desktop OS to others or even use it as
>     my own
>     > desktop as my daily driver. Linux seems to do okay when the upper
>     bounds
>     > of the loads are well-defined and easily fit within the available
>     resources.
>     >
>     > Does anyone know of a distro that does as good as a job at maintaining
>     > resource control and desktop responsiveness under heavy load as
>     Android
>     > or Windows? I would love to hear about it.
>     >
>     > Thanks,
>     >
>     > -hk
>     >
>     > P.S. a relevant article, "Yes, Linux Does Bad In Low RAM / Memory
>     > Pressure Situations On The Desktop"
>     >
>     https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Does-Bad-Low-RAM
>     >
>     > P.P.S. It appears that Android uses pressure stall information
>     (PSI) to
>     > mitigate these problems per
>     > post
>     https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/general-discussion/1118164-yes-linux-does-bad-in-low-ram-memory-pressure-situations-on-the-desktop?p=1118174#post1118174
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     > tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From iznogoud at nobelware.com  Sun Jul 26 13:49:37 2020
From: iznogoud at nobelware.com (Iznogoud)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 18:49:37 +0000
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200726184937.GA30029@nobelware.com>

Very interesting points. Browsing webpages needs gigabytes of RAM today.
I do not know how software development has got to be so irresponsible...
I do not remember who it was who intentionally gave slow computers to their
programmers to make sure they wrote efficient code. No such thinking today.
I think it is a market-oriented problem; components are cheap, RAM is cheap,
and all trouble stems from that. I will stop ranting about this now.

I think that there are some bad design choices on the software side, like
relying on other components that bring their own latency, memory needs, and
problems to any one large software framework (say, Open/LibreOffice). I can
think of the dreaded dbus. Also, try running two separate firefoxes at once
under the same UID.

But there are ideas. Controlling resources is a thing, and I think that
"containerizing" execution may help here. Appropriate resources can be
allocated per process, with caps on CPU time, I/O, etc. I do not know how
to do this off the top of my head, but if there is an OS that should do it
well for you, Linux is its name. Does anyone have a solution of this kind
to offer so I do not have to do endless browsing for it? Very interested.

It is hard to force open-source developers to do you the favour and make
their software lean and robust to beyond what their testing suite extends.
The response to this is: "here is the code, fix what you do not like".


From n0nas at amsat.org  Sun Jul 26 14:31:56 2020
From: n0nas at amsat.org (Doug Reed)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 14:31:56 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] tclug-list Digest, Vol 187, Issue 7
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1595782801.32084.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
References: <mailman.1.1595782801.32084.tclug-list@mn-linux.org>
Message-ID: <CAL+RLOTZ8DobS2htHA7Yk2KB4GqqNO9fd-BgdjCb7ZbbNKYgrQ@mail.gmail.com>

I've been using Linux full time for 5-10 years now but I'm not a power
user. My main complaint is that Firefox uses more and more RAM for web
content buffers the longer you keep it open. My usual thing is to keep
it open and running for a couple weeks at a time until some
accumulated updates force a reboot or the system hangs.

After a few days start, when the web content buffers have filled most
of RAM and started to fill the swap file, new programs have longer
delays loading as Linux has to shuffle memory to make room. This takes
some amount of time even with a SSD. If I reboot or kill the web
content processes to release the RAM, the problem is solved until they
fill up again.

I had similar problems "way back when" with Win XP and Firefox. At
that time it was the web page buffer holding Internet images that grew
too large. I never had a lot of memory at the time and the web page
buffer grew to over 300MB and searching the buffer took longer than
downloading a new copy of the file. The problem was solved when I
forced the max buffer size to 30MB.

What I'd really like would be to do a similar size limit on the
current version of Firefox.

Doug.

-- 
I vote the Second Amendment FIRST!

Enjoy life, it has an expiration date!

From eng at pinenet.com  Sun Jul 26 19:27:54 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 19:27:54 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <20200726184937.GA30029@nobelware.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200726184937.GA30029@nobelware.com>
Message-ID: <09f05fb4-7deb-e473-36f7-d576b2186c51@pinenet.com>

Both you and Doug Reed suggest the problem is mostly on the browser 
side. My experience suggests it is on the web server side.

The status bar on firefox shows connections with dozens of other web 
servers just to load what seems like a simple web page. My seamonkey 
browser still has the old fashioned blinking "stop" button on the 
toolbar, and downloading a web page these days seems like a long lasting 
busy connection. I even get grouched at by some sites for using the ad 
blocker; they say "how do you think we make our money, turn off your ad 
blocker." They even provide a button on their grouch box to turn the ad 
blocker off.

Most financial transaction sites advise to close your browser after 
logging out. Not a bad idea. Like washing your hands.



Iznogoud wrote:
> Very interesting points. Browsing webpages needs gigabytes of RAM today.
> I do not know how software development has got to be so irresponsible...
> I do not remember who it was who intentionally gave slow computers to their
> programmers to make sure they wrote efficient code. No such thinking today.
> I think it is a market-oriented problem; components are cheap, RAM is cheap,
> and all trouble stems from that. I will stop ranting about this now.
>
> I think that there are some bad design choices on the software side, like
> relying on other components that bring their own latency, memory needs, and
> problems to any one large software framework (say, Open/LibreOffice). I can
> think of the dreaded dbus. Also, try running two separate firefoxes at once
> under the same UID.
>
> But there are ideas. Controlling resources is a thing, and I think that
> "containerizing" execution may help here. Appropriate resources can be
> allocated per process, with caps on CPU time, I/O, etc. I do not know how
> to do this off the top of my head, but if there is an OS that should do it
> well for you, Linux is its name. Does anyone have a solution of this kind
> to offer so I do not have to do endless browsing for it? Very interested.
>
> It is hard to force open-source developers to do you the favour and make
> their software lean and robust to beyond what their testing suite extends.
> The response to this is: "here is the code, fix what you do not like".
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From kaze0010 at umn.edu  Sun Jul 26 20:34:34 2020
From: kaze0010 at umn.edu (Haudy Kazemi)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:34:34 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <09f05fb4-7deb-e473-36f7-d576b2186c51@pinenet.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200726184937.GA30029@nobelware.com>
 <09f05fb4-7deb-e473-36f7-d576b2186c51@pinenet.com>
Message-ID: <CACs6+uWrSNyf8t8P+q-b+=hO9_gP54csya7zDinJcqytSd91oQ@mail.gmail.com>

There are definitely things websites can do to not be so resource hungry,
which would in turn mitigate the impact of Linux desktop design weaknesses.
(That is not an excuse for Linux, though, as Linux distros are mentioned as
a way to extend the life of aging hardware.) The problem is we don't have
much leverage over websites. Simply blocking all scripts also breaks the
sites. Alternative sites aren't always an option.

I myself prefer web 1.0 over web 2.0 and its heavy scripts, wasted screen
real estate, endless scrolling webpages, poor contrast UIs, and other lousy
design 'features'. There was a time when a Pentium 166 MHz with 64 MB RAM
was enough for web browsing.


On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 19:37 Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com> wrote:

> Both you and Doug Reed suggest the problem is mostly on the browser
> side. My experience suggests it is on the web server side.
>
> The status bar on firefox shows connections with dozens of other web
> servers just to load what seems like a simple web page. My seamonkey
> browser still has the old fashioned blinking "stop" button on the
> toolbar, and downloading a web page these days seems like a long lasting
> busy connection. I even get grouched at by some sites for using the ad
> blocker; they say "how do you think we make our money, turn off your ad
> blocker." They even provide a button on their grouch box to turn the ad
> blocker off.
>
> Most financial transaction sites advise to close your browser after
> logging out. Not a bad idea. Like washing your hands.
>
>
>
> Iznogoud wrote:
> > Very interesting points. Browsing webpages needs gigabytes of RAM today.
> > I do not know how software development has got to be so irresponsible...
> > I do not remember who it was who intentionally gave slow computers to
> their
> > programmers to make sure they wrote efficient code. No such thinking
> today.
> > I think it is a market-oriented problem; components are cheap, RAM is
> cheap,
> > and all trouble stems from that. I will stop ranting about this now.
> >
> > I think that there are some bad design choices on the software side, like
> > relying on other components that bring their own latency, memory needs,
> and
> > problems to any one large software framework (say, Open/LibreOffice). I
> can
> > think of the dreaded dbus. Also, try running two separate firefoxes at
> once
> > under the same UID.
> >
> > But there are ideas. Controlling resources is a thing, and I think that
> > "containerizing" execution may help here. Appropriate resources can be
> > allocated per process, with caps on CPU time, I/O, etc. I do not know how
> > to do this off the top of my head, but if there is an OS that should do
> it
> > well for you, Linux is its name. Does anyone have a solution of this kind
> > to offer so I do not have to do endless browsing for it? Very interested.
> >
> > It is hard to force open-source developers to do you the favour and make
> > their software lean and robust to beyond what their testing suite
> extends.
> > The response to this is: "here is the code, fix what you do not like".
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
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From eng at pinenet.com  Sun Jul 26 22:34:15 2020
From: eng at pinenet.com (Rick Engebretson)
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 22:34:15 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <CACs6+uWrSNyf8t8P+q-b+=hO9_gP54csya7zDinJcqytSd91oQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20200726184937.GA30029@nobelware.com>
 <09f05fb4-7deb-e473-36f7-d576b2186c51@pinenet.com>
 <CACs6+uWrSNyf8t8P+q-b+=hO9_gP54csya7zDinJcqytSd91oQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2f0b95cb-426e-2b63-c686-a5a3255335f0@pinenet.com>

Earlier you said, "My experience with Android and Windows is they both 
do a very good job in dealing with processes that become very memory or 
CPU hungry."

If you simply search "android google" a reference pops up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)

that says;
Android is a mobile operating system based on a modified version of the 
Linux kernel and other open source software, designed primarily for 
touchscreen mobile devices such as smartphones and tablets. Android is 
developed by a consortium of developers known as the Open Handset 
Alliance and commercially sponsored by Google.

If you go to the web site
https://www.android.com/
you are immediately asked to agree to google cookies.

If you want to eat google ad services and google cookies all day on a 
google designed phone I have no reason to try convince you differently.




Haudy Kazemi wrote:
> There are definitely things websites can do to not be so resource
> hungry, which would in turn mitigate the impact of Linux desktop design
> weaknesses. (That is not an excuse for Linux, though, as Linux distros
> are mentioned as a way to extend the life of aging hardware.) The
> problem is we don't have much leverage over websites. Simply blocking
> all scripts also breaks the sites. Alternative sites aren't always an
> option.
>
> I myself prefer web 1.0 over web 2.0 and its heavy scripts, wasted
> screen real estate, endless scrolling webpages, poor contrast UIs, and
> other lousy design 'features'. There was a time when a Pentium 166 MHz
> with 64 MB RAM was enough for web browsing.
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 26, 2020, 19:37 Rick Engebretson <eng at pinenet.com
> <mailto:eng at pinenet.com>> wrote:
>
>     Both you and Doug Reed suggest the problem is mostly on the browser
>     side. My experience suggests it is on the web server side.
>
>     The status bar on firefox shows connections with dozens of other web
>     servers just to load what seems like a simple web page. My seamonkey
>     browser still has the old fashioned blinking "stop" button on the
>     toolbar, and downloading a web page these days seems like a long
>     lasting
>     busy connection. I even get grouched at by some sites for using the ad
>     blocker; they say "how do you think we make our money, turn off your ad
>     blocker." They even provide a button on their grouch box to turn the ad
>     blocker off.
>
>     Most financial transaction sites advise to close your browser after
>     logging out. Not a bad idea. Like washing your hands.
>
>
>
>     Iznogoud wrote:
>     > Very interesting points. Browsing webpages needs gigabytes of RAM
>     today.
>     > I do not know how software development has got to be so
>     irresponsible...
>     > I do not remember who it was who intentionally gave slow computers
>     to their
>     > programmers to make sure they wrote efficient code. No such
>     thinking today.
>     > I think it is a market-oriented problem; components are cheap, RAM
>     is cheap,
>     > and all trouble stems from that. I will stop ranting about this now.
>     >
>     > I think that there are some bad design choices on the software
>     side, like
>     > relying on other components that bring their own latency, memory
>     needs, and
>     > problems to any one large software framework (say,
>     Open/LibreOffice). I can
>     > think of the dreaded dbus. Also, try running two separate
>     firefoxes at once
>     > under the same UID.
>     >
>     > But there are ideas. Controlling resources is a thing, and I think
>     that
>     > "containerizing" execution may help here. Appropriate resources can be
>     > allocated per process, with caps on CPU time, I/O, etc. I do not
>     know how
>     > to do this off the top of my head, but if there is an OS that
>     should do it
>     > well for you, Linux is its name. Does anyone have a solution of
>     this kind
>     > to offer so I do not have to do endless browsing for it? Very
>     interested.
>     >
>     > It is hard to force open-source developers to do you the favour
>     and make
>     > their software lean and robust to beyond what their testing suite
>     extends.
>     > The response to this is: "here is the code, fix what you do not like".
>     >
>     > _______________________________________________
>     > TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     > tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     > http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>     >
>     _______________________________________________
>     TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>     tclug-list at mn-linux.org <mailto:tclug-list at mn-linux.org>
>     http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> tclug-list at mn-linux.org
> http://mailman.mn-linux.org/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list
>

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Jul 28 09:29:59 2020
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 09:29:59 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] driverless centos8
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9C=fdsYhkUNfB6w+snZmv5okX2vvPZXLwutgXKe9UY=BA@mail.gmail.com>

i've upgraded a server from centos7 to centos8, but centos8 seems to have
removed the drivers for the discs and ethernet.  i can still boot into
centos7 but when i boot into centos8 it doesn't get past the dracut shell
as it can't find the root filesystem.

perhaps the drivers needed might be
sata_nv
pata_acpi
pata_amd
tg3
forcedeth

i tried to include a dud at install time but the installer still said no
discs found.

i'm thinking if i get the right drivers it might work to just include them
in the upgraded system.  it seems i might find them somewhere at elrepo,
somehow include them in /etc/dracut.conf.d, and somehow run dracut but i've
yet to see an actual example, anyone have an example handy?
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From gsker at skerbitz.org  Tue Jul 28 10:11:50 2020
From: gsker at skerbitz.org (gerry)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 10:11:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [tclug-list] driverless centos8
In-Reply-To: <CAD+dB9C=fdsYhkUNfB6w+snZmv5okX2vvPZXLwutgXKe9UY=BA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAD+dB9C=fdsYhkUNfB6w+snZmv5okX2vvPZXLwutgXKe9UY=BA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.22.394.2007281011160.2973405@skerbitz.org>

Does this help?

https://fedoramagazine.org/initramfs-dracut-and-the-dracut-emergency-shell/


On Tue, 28 Jul 2020, gregrwm wrote:

> i've upgraded a server from centos7 to centos8, but centos8 seems to have removed the drivers
> for the discs and ethernet.  i can still boot into centos7 but when i boot into centos8 it
> doesn't get past the dracut shell as it can't find the root filesystem.
> perhaps the drivers needed might be
> sata_nv
> pata_acpi
> pata_amd
> tg3
> forcedeth
> i tried to include a dud at install time but the installer still said no discs found.
> 
> i'm thinking if i get the right drivers it might work to just include them in the upgraded
> system.  it seems i might find them somewhere at elrepo, somehow include them in
> /etc/dracut.conf.d, and somehow run dracut but i've yet to see an actual example, anyone have
> an example handy?
> 
>

From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Jul 28 16:05:12 2020
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 16:05:12 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] driverless centos8
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.22.394.2007281011160.2973405@skerbitz.org>
References: <CAD+dB9C=fdsYhkUNfB6w+snZmv5okX2vvPZXLwutgXKe9UY=BA@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.22.394.2007281011160.2973405@skerbitz.org>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9C=xeq+rEF5AE88TRxqDoP2Zccy-GARAuqpMkbPqFuDmw@mail.gmail.com>

thank you.  i'm hoping to see an example of actually adding a driver.
neither that nor several other articles i've read show an example.  with
each boot cycle being several minutes i was hoping to skip some of the
trial and error treadmill.


On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:11 AM gerry <gsker at skerbitz.org> wrote:

> Does this help?
>
> https://fedoramagazine.org/initramfs-dracut-and-the-dracut-emergency-shell/
>
>
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2020, gregrwm wrote:
> > i've upgraded a server from centos7 to centos8, but centos8 seems to
> have removed the drivers
> > for the discs and ethernet.  i can still boot into centos7 but when i
> boot into centos8 it
> > doesn't get past the dracut shell as it can't find the root filesystem.
> > perhaps the drivers needed might be
> > sata_nv
> > pata_acpi
> > pata_amd
> > tg3
> > forcedeth
> > i tried to include a dud at install time but the installer still said no
> discs found.
> >
> > i'm thinking if i get the right drivers it might work to just include
> them in the upgraded
> > system.  it seems i might find them somewhere at elrepo, somehow include
> them in
> > /etc/dracut.conf.d, and somehow run dracut but i've yet to see an actual
> example, anyone have
> > an example handy?



-- 
this concludes test 42 of big bang inflation dynamics.  in the advent of an
actual universe, further instructions will be provided.
000000000000000000000042
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From tclug1 at whitleymott.net  Tue Jul 28 17:52:08 2020
From: tclug1 at whitleymott.net (gregrwm)
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 2020 17:52:08 -0500
Subject: [tclug-list] Linux desktop performance under extreme memory and
 CPU pressure
In-Reply-To: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACs6+uV2bTye6Ls-O95od4Wfw4G0Q4hYO3hUq1C7fqZmxOd5uA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD+dB9CT=eFsZ8btTT2TSSnJGuMWc=xPdLzfEmx+fLFXCeOfCA@mail.gmail.com>

totally.  good points.  agrees with my experience.  i happily help folks
that are interested in linux, but i rarely find myself convincing someone
to be interested in linux.

i've tried several distros, and on my desktop i keep returning to lubuntu
as the best compromise, quite lightweight, things mostly just work, and the
ubuntu repos have a true wealth of stuff.  i often even find myself using
the lxde or lxqt ui, usually just to see if some odd behavior i'm
encountering is different there.  but you've struck a bullseye into the top
reason i use...twm.  what the heck here's my whole list of reasons:

   - tiny footprint (swaps in right away even under heavy thrashing),
   - keyboard focus not stolen when windows or popups appear (doesn't
   anybody else ever type?  boggles my mind this feature is rarely found
   elsewhere.  i can't stand popups getting dismissed by what i was typing
   before i even got to see them!),
   - can place active window icons anywhere on the desktop (usually i slide
   them mostly off an edge where they occupy no space and are easy to click)
   - no superfluous taskbars wasting precious space,
   - trim titlebars (not very tall and not the whole window width, i even
   ditch the titlebar buttons & configure the functionality into mouse or
   keyboard actions anywhere on the titlebar or window),
   - can slide a window so parts of it are off screen in any direction and
   then stretch it to fill the screen with the part i want to see,
   - vert zoom, horiz zoom, left zoom, right zoom, top zoom, bottom zoom,
   full zoom,
   - keystroke & mouseclick actions all configurable (ugly by default, but
   reasonable with a modest twmrc),
   - i have bouts where i go trying the others, but after all these decades
   twm's features still have not been usurped.

i'll happily share my twmrc with anyone interested.

and there's a fair bit more to making myself happy with lubuntu, eg purging
various packages that launch forever running daemons i have no use for.


On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 1:49 PM Haudy Kazemi <kaze0010 at umn.edu> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am splitting this topic off from the other thread, hoping that someone
> has a solution or recommendations.
>
> My experience with Android and Windows is they both do a very good job in
> dealing with processes that become very memory or CPU hungry. The systems
> tend to stay responsive (may lag slightly, but usable), and recoverable
> (task managers can still be brought up), even under extreme memory and CPU
> pressure.
>
> I have yet to find a desktop Linux distro that can do nearly as well.
> Chrome and Firefox both easily get into 100% CPU usage and high memory
> usage situations on desktop Linux, resulting in nonresponsive systems, that
> I don't experience on Android or Windows. These situations are easy enough
> to hit that even novice users can experience them with only a handful of
> open tabs, depending on the sites open. (On the exact same hardware,
> Windows can run the same browser with the same or even more tabs and
> survive). With these problems, I find it hard to recommend Linux as a
> general purpose desktop OS to others or even use it as my own desktop as my
> daily driver. Linux seems to do okay when the upper bounds of the loads are
> well-defined and easily fit within the available resources.
>
> Does anyone know of a distro that does as good as a job at maintaining
> resource control and desktop responsiveness under heavy load as Android or
> Windows? I would love to hear about it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> -hk
>
> P.S. a relevant article, "Yes, Linux Does Bad In Low RAM / Memory Pressure
> Situations On The Desktop"
> https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Linux-Does-Bad-Low-RAM
>
> P.P.S. It appears that Android uses pressure stall information (PSI) to
> mitigate these problems per post
> https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/phoronix/general-discussion/1118164-yes-linux-does-bad-in-low-ram-memory-pressure-situations-on-the-desktop?p=1118174#post1118174
>
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