Count me in also.  I would love to help make a public network happen in the
Twin Cities.  FYI I am on the east side of St. Paul (Woodbury).

- John

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin at tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin at tcwug.org]On
Behalf Of tcwug-list-request at tcwug.org
Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 9:46 AM
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
Subject: tcwug-list digest, Vol 1 #61 - 11 msgs


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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? (Scott Dier)
   2. RE: Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? (Mike Bresnahan)
   3. Re: Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? (Richard T Nechanicky)
   4. Re: Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? (Matthew S. Hallacy)
   5. RE: Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points??? (Mike Bresnahan)
   6. interest in an actual community wireless network? (steve ulrich)
   7. RE: interest in an actual community wireless network? (Mike Bresnahan)
   8. Re: interest in an actual community wireless network? (Jack Vanatta)
   9. Re: interest in an actual community wireless network? (Andy Warner)
  10. Re: interest in an actual community wireless network? (Jeff Lehman)
  11. Re: interest in an actual community wireless network? (steve ulrich)

--__--__--

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 10:28:05 -0500
From: Scott Dier <dieman at ringworld.org>
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points???
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

* Richard T Nechanicky <v0key at yahoo.com> [020427 09:03]:
> Does anyone on this list have a running inventory of
> Access Points mapped out in the Twin Cities area?

If I get a GPS working, I would be willing to spend a day driving around
the north metro area (coon rapids, anoka, etc) to look around with
Kismet.  I've got a gps i can use, but its broked.

--
Scott Dier <dieman at ringworld.org> http://www.ringworld.org/

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "Mike Bresnahan" <mbresnah at visi.com>
To: <tcwug-list at tcwug.org>
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points???
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 11:53:35 -0500
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

Concerning kismet... I can't get it to work reliably with my prism2.5 card.
To make it work at all I have to run 'prism2_monitor <channel>' on the
channel I want to sniff on.  It will then sniff on the channel I select, but
no others.  If I run the script and specify a new channel, it will start
sniffing on the new channel, but stop on the first channel.  Therefore, I
have to manually cycle through all the channels.  Additionally, it sometimes
stops working on all channels and I have to restart card services via
'/etc/init.d/pcmcia restart'.  What gives?

I am using:
    kernel 2.4.7-10
    Redhat 7.2
    kismet 1.4.2
    pcmcia-cs 3.1.33
    wlan-ng 0.1.10
    Linksys WPC11 v2.5
    Dell Inspiron 3200 PII 266Mhz

Mike

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcwug-list-admin at tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin at tcwug.org]On
> Behalf Of Scott Dier
> Sent: Saturday, April 27, 2002 10:28 AM
> To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
> Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points???
>
>
> * Richard T Nechanicky <v0key at yahoo.com> [020427 09:03]:
> > Does anyone on this list have a running inventory of
> > Access Points mapped out in the Twin Cities area?
>
> If I get a GPS working, I would be willing to spend a day driving around
> the north metro area (coon rapids, anoka, etc) to look around with
> Kismet.  I've got a gps i can use, but its broked.
>
> --
> Scott Dier <dieman at ringworld.org> http://www.ringworld.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St.
> Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list at tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 15:37:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Richard T Nechanicky <v0key at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points???
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

Let me know when you get up and running
(v0key at yahoo.com)...I have covered the NE side of the
cities pretty well...

Thanks,
Rich

--- Scott Dier <dieman at ringworld.org> wrote:
> * Richard T Nechanicky <v0key at yahoo.com> [020427
> 09:03]:
> > Does anyone on this list have a running inventory
> of
> > Access Points mapped out in the Twin Cities area?
>
> If I get a GPS working, I would be willing to spend
> a day driving around
> the north metro area (coon rapids, anoka, etc) to
> look around with
> Kismet.  I've got a gps i can use, but its broked.
>
> --
> Scott Dier <dieman at ringworld.org>
> http://www.ringworld.org/
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List -
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list at tcwug.org
>
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - your guide to health and wellness
http://health.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 22:01:17 -0600
From: "Matthew S. Hallacy" <poptix at techmonkeys.org>
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points???
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

On Sat, Apr 27, 2002 at 11:53:35AM -0500, Mike Bresnahan wrote:
> Concerning kismet... I can't get it to work reliably with my prism2.5
card.
> To make it work at all I have to run 'prism2_monitor <channel>' on the
> channel I want to sniff on.  It will then sniff on the channel I select,
but
> no others.  If I run the script and specify a new channel, it will start
> sniffing on the new channel, but stop on the first channel.  Therefore, I
> have to manually cycle through all the channels.  Additionally, it
sometimes
> stops working on all channels and I have to restart card services via
> '/etc/init.d/pcmcia restart'.  What gives?
>
> I am using:
>     kernel 2.4.7-10
>     Redhat 7.2
>     kismet 1.4.2
>     pcmcia-cs 3.1.33
>     wlan-ng 0.1.10
>     Linksys WPC11 v2.5
>     Dell Inspiron 3200 PII 266Mhz
>
> Mike
>

This is because Kismet doesn't do any channel hopping itself, you need
to use either the included scripts (prism2_hopper, etc) or run something
like prismstumbler in the background that hops channels.


This is all in the documentation, kismet is a great program.

--
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://techmonkeys.org/~poptix                  GPG public key 0x01938203

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Mike Bresnahan" <mbresnah at visi.com>
To: <tcwug-list at tcwug.org>
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Re: Minneapolis Map of Access Points???
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 00:01:32 -0500
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

> This is all in the documentation, kismet is a great program.

Where is the documentation?  All I have is a README and I didn't spot
anything on the website.  Did I overlook something?

Mike


--__--__--

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 11:17:21 -0500
From: steve ulrich <sulrich at botwerks.org>
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org


all-

i joined this mailing list a couple of weeks ago and i just recently
finished catching up on the mailing list archives.  from some of the
discussions that took place a couple of months ago there was some interest
in creating a real community wireless network but nothing (or so it would
seem from the archives) was really done about it.

i've had several opportunities to use the seattle wireless networks and
several in the bay area as well as the guerrilla network in the boston
area and i'm quite disappointed that there isn't anything equivalent in
the twin cities area.

since building really big service provider networks is what i do for a
living. i figured if i'm disappointed in this i should really do something
about it.

is there a populace amongst the list that would be interested in meeting
and coordinating the deployment (albeit i'm sure quite limited at this
time?) of such a network?  i'm in the process of setting up a public
access point in my neighborhood (NE minneapolis) once my omnis show up.

i've been hacking on the NoCatAuth stuff (http://www.nocat.net) to talk to
real routers (cisco) for the traffic shaping and such.  since this seems
to be the most promising mode of community authentication i would be quite
willing to host an authetication server for local authentication and
integration with other WCNs.

any takers? any interest in setting up a face to face meeting for
interested parties? there are a plethora of network design and
administration issues which would need to be addressed in deploying this
on any scale. i understand that the dunn bros. in st. paul has wireless
access and that it will be forthcoming at a few other locations.  if there
is considerable interest in a whiteboard session i can likely host a
meeting a class/meeting room at work with a whiteboard. (sorry - no public
wireless access).




--
steve ulrich                       sulrich at botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Mike Bresnahan" <mbresnah at visi.com>
To: <tcwug-list at tcwug.org>
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 12:25:52 -0500
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

Sounds like fun.  I'm a wireless newbie, but I am eager to learn and willing
help out as I can.

Mike Bresnahan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcwug-list-admin at tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin at tcwug.org]On
> Behalf Of steve ulrich
> Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 11:17 AM
> To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
> Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?
>
>
>
> all-
>
> i joined this mailing list a couple of weeks ago and i just recently
> finished catching up on the mailing list archives.  from some of the
> discussions that took place a couple of months ago there was some interest
> in creating a real community wireless network but nothing (or so it would
> seem from the archives) was really done about it.
>
> i've had several opportunities to use the seattle wireless networks and
> several in the bay area as well as the guerrilla network in the boston
> area and i'm quite disappointed that there isn't anything equivalent in
> the twin cities area.
>
> since building really big service provider networks is what i do for a
> living. i figured if i'm disappointed in this i should really do something
> about it.
>
> is there a populace amongst the list that would be interested in meeting
> and coordinating the deployment (albeit i'm sure quite limited at this
> time?) of such a network?  i'm in the process of setting up a public
> access point in my neighborhood (NE minneapolis) once my omnis show up.
>
> i've been hacking on the NoCatAuth stuff (http://www.nocat.net) to talk to
> real routers (cisco) for the traffic shaping and such.  since this seems
> to be the most promising mode of community authentication i would be quite
> willing to host an authetication server for local authentication and
> integration with other WCNs.
>
> any takers? any interest in setting up a face to face meeting for
> interested parties? there are a plethora of network design and
> administration issues which would need to be addressed in deploying this
> on any scale. i understand that the dunn bros. in st. paul has wireless
> access and that it will be forthcoming at a few other locations.  if there
> is considerable interest in a whiteboard session i can likely host a
> meeting a class/meeting room at work with a whiteboard. (sorry - no public
> wireless access).
>
>
>
>
> --
> steve ulrich                       sulrich at botwerks.org
> PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC
> _______________________________________________


--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Jack Vanatta" <jrv at scc.net>
To: <tcwug-list at tcwug.org>
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 17:48:15 -0500
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

Yes, I would like that, and be willing to help.
I have been in communication with the people at www.personaltelco.net
(Portland, OR)
about this very idea.
My public access point is listed on their node map.


----- Original Message -----
From: "steve ulrich" <sulrich at botwerks.org>
To: <tcwug-list at tcwug.org>
Sent: Sunday, April 28, 2002 11:17 AM
Subject: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?


>
> all-
>
> i joined this mailing list a couple of weeks ago and i just recently
> finished catching up on the mailing list archives.  from some of the
> discussions that took place a couple of months ago there was some interest
> in creating a real community wireless network but nothing (or so it would
> seem from the archives) was really done about it.
>
> i've had several opportunities to use the seattle wireless networks and
> several in the bay area as well as the guerrilla network in the boston
> area and i'm quite disappointed that there isn't anything equivalent in
> the twin cities area.
>
> since building really big service provider networks is what i do for a
> living. i figured if i'm disappointed in this i should really do something
> about it.
>
> is there a populace amongst the list that would be interested in meeting
> and coordinating the deployment (albeit i'm sure quite limited at this
> time?) of such a network?  i'm in the process of setting up a public
> access point in my neighborhood (NE minneapolis) once my omnis show up.
>
> i've been hacking on the NoCatAuth stuff (http://www.nocat.net) to talk to
> real routers (cisco) for the traffic shaping and such.  since this seems
> to be the most promising mode of community authentication i would be quite
> willing to host an authetication server for local authentication and
> integration with other WCNs.
>
> any takers? any interest in setting up a face to face meeting for
> interested parties? there are a plethora of network design and
> administration issues which would need to be addressed in deploying this
> on any scale. i understand that the dunn bros. in st. paul has wireless
> access and that it will be forthcoming at a few other locations.  if there
> is considerable interest in a whiteboard session i can likely host a
> meeting a class/meeting room at work with a whiteboard. (sorry - no public
> wireless access).
>
>
>
>
> --
> steve ulrich                       sulrich at botwerks.org
> PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list at tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>


--__--__--

Message: 9
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 21:20:21 -0500
From: Andy Warner <andyw at pobox.com>
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

steve ulrich wrote:
> [...]
> i joined this mailing list a couple of weeks ago and i just recently
> finished catching up on the mailing list archives.  from some of the
> discussions that took place a couple of months ago there was some interest
> in creating a real community wireless network but nothing (or so it would
> seem from the archives) was really done about it.

Ack.

> [...]
> is there a populace amongst the list that would be interested in meeting
> and coordinating the deployment (albeit i'm sure quite limited at this
> time?) of such a network?  i'm in the process of setting up a public
> access point in my neighborhood (NE minneapolis) once my omnis show up.

Count me in.

> i've been hacking on the NoCatAuth stuff (http://www.nocat.net) to talk to
> real routers (cisco) for the traffic shaping and such.  since this seems
> to be the most promising mode of community authentication i would be quite
> willing to host an authetication server for local authentication and
> integration with other WCNs.

I've been doing a bunch of work recently with the hostap driver
(http://people.ssh.com/jkm/Prism2/) which now supports PCI/Mini-PCI cards,
so a single linux AP/portal (a la Sputnik(http://www.sputnik.com)) is a very
practial and reliable option. Heck, just grabbing sputnik releases, hacking
the server details and putting up our own auth server might be another
potential option.

I do believe the very first thing we need to come to terms with
as a group is exactly what kind of network/service do we want to
build. The stated goals of existing WCNs seem to span the gamut
from simply sharing technical knowledge, to coordinating/branding
hot-spots, to supplying a complete local network infrastucture.

I'll go on record as remaining dubious about our ability to provide
any kind of meaningful alternative infrastucture in the metro area,
given the flat terrain and low population density. However,
providing/promoting public access points, with reliable/predicatable
configuration and services, while utilising wired backhauls (like
Sputnik) sounds both practical and fascinating to me.

I think a face-to-face meeting of TCWUG would be a great idea, long
overdue. I'll offer to do some show and tell at a meeting, with a
re-cased, tower mount WAP-11 with POE, as long as the meeting happens
before I bolt it to my chimney :-) If anyone can supply a PCMCIA-capable
Mac (or an Intermec AP), we could do an alchemy BOF too, where Lucent
Silver cards were upgraded to Gold.
--
andyw at pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

--__--__--

Message: 10
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 23:32:30 -0500
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
From: Jeff Lehman <jeff at digitalguy.net>
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

--=======2BCF50C7=======
Content-Type: text/plain; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-21ADEFD; charset=us-ascii;
format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Sounds like a good deal.  I live in NE minneapolis also; near central and
st. anthony pkwy.  I'm pretty much a newbie to 802.11 but I'd be interested
in doing what I can to contribute to any kind of network we set up.  A
TCWUG meeting is definately overdue :)

Jeff

At 11:17 AM 4/28/2002 -0500, you wrote:


>all-
>
>i joined this mailing list a couple of weeks ago and i just recently
>finished catching up on the mailing list archives.  from some of the
>discussions that took place a couple of months ago there was some interest
>in creating a real community wireless network but nothing (or so it would
>seem from the archives) was really done about it.
>
>i've had several opportunities to use the seattle wireless networks and
>several in the bay area as well as the guerrilla network in the boston
>area and i'm quite disappointed that there isn't anything equivalent in
>the twin cities area.
>
>since building really big service provider networks is what i do for a
>living. i figured if i'm disappointed in this i should really do something
>about it.
>
>is there a populace amongst the list that would be interested in meeting
>and coordinating the deployment (albeit i'm sure quite limited at this
>time?) of such a network?  i'm in the process of setting up a public
>access point in my neighborhood (NE minneapolis) once my omnis show up.
>
>i've been hacking on the NoCatAuth stuff (http://www.nocat.net) to talk to
>real routers (cisco) for the traffic shaping and such.  since this seems
>to be the most promising mode of community authentication i would be quite
>willing to host an authetication server for local authentication and
>integration with other WCNs.
>
>any takers? any interest in setting up a face to face meeting for
>interested parties? there are a plethora of network design and
>administration issues which would need to be addressed in deploying this
>on any scale. i understand that the dunn bros. in st. paul has wireless
>access and that it will be forthcoming at a few other locations.  if there
>is considerable interest in a whiteboard session i can likely host a
>meeting a class/meeting room at work with a whiteboard. (sorry - no public
>wireless access).
>
>
>
>
>--
>steve ulrich                       sulrich at botwerks.org
>PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC
>_______________________________________________
>Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
>Minnesota
>http://www.tcwug.org
>tcwug-list at tcwug.org
>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
>
>---
>Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.351 / Virus Database: 197 - Release Date: 4/19/2002

--=======2BCF50C7=======
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x-avg-checked=avg-ok-21ADEFD
Content-Disposition: inline


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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--__--__--

Message: 11
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:37:48 -0500
From: steve ulrich <sulrich at botwerks.org>
To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] interest in an actual community wireless network?
Reply-To: tcwug-list at tcwug.org

when last we saw our hero (Sunday, Apr 28, 2002),
 Andy Warner was madly tapping out:
> steve ulrich wrote:
> > [...]
> > i joined this mailing list a couple of weeks ago and i just recently
> > finished catching up on the mailing list archives.  from some of the
> > discussions that took place a couple of months ago there was some
interest
> > in creating a real community wireless network but nothing (or so it
would
> > seem from the archives) was really done about it.
>
> Ack.
>
> > [...]
> > is there a populace amongst the list that would be interested in meeting
> > and coordinating the deployment (albeit i'm sure quite limited at this
> > time?) of such a network?  i'm in the process of setting up a public
> > access point in my neighborhood (NE minneapolis) once my omnis show up.
>
> Count me in.

excellent!

> > i've been hacking on the NoCatAuth stuff (http://www.nocat.net) to talk
to
> > real routers (cisco) for the traffic shaping and such.  since this seems
> > to be the most promising mode of community authentication i would be
quite
> > willing to host an authetication server for local authentication and
> > integration with other WCNs.
>
> I've been doing a bunch of work recently with the hostap driver
> (http://people.ssh.com/jkm/Prism2/) which now supports PCI/Mini-PCI cards,
> so a single linux AP/portal (a la Sputnik(http://www.sputnik.com)) is a
very
> practial and reliable option. Heck, just grabbing sputnik releases,
hacking
> the server details and putting up our own auth server might be another
> potential option.

i just recently download the sputnik stuff. i haven't burned the iso yet
and taken a look at it?  any thoughts on it?  i'm a bit confused as to
where they seem to be taking this in the long run.  the goals of the nocat
folks as well as the seattle wireless folks are quite clear.  i don't
think the TCs is a good location for the seattle folks goals but an
organized co-op type venture is quite appealing to me.

> I do believe the very first thing we need to come to terms with
> as a group is exactly what kind of network/service do we want to
> build. The stated goals of existing WCNs seem to span the gamut
> from simply sharing technical knowledge, to coordinating/branding
> hot-spots, to supplying a complete local network infrastucture.
>
> I'll go on record as remaining dubious about our ability to provide
> any kind of meaningful alternative infrastucture in the metro area,
> given the flat terrain and low population density. However,
> providing/promoting public access points, with reliable/predicatable
> configuration and services, while utilising wired backhauls (like
> Sputnik) sounds both practical and fascinating to me.

i think that you're dead on here.  i don't hold out much hope for
achieving coverage anything like i've been able to observe in the downtown
boston or san francisco areas.  these areas have sufficient population
density and interesting terrain to be able to engage in such activities.

quite simply - i'd like to see a forum for doing show and tells, assisting
local businesses (restaurants, coffee shops, libraries, etc) to provide
reciprocal services and/or access points, group discounts on gear, books,
conference fees, etc.

i'd also like to be able setup an access point, share a portion of my
wirelines b/w with the public, share a higher percentage of b/w with
cooperative members and receive the same treatment in another part of town
either at a coffee shop or knowing that i might be covered by someones
access point in another part of town. i think that using wired backhauls
with tunneling for select traffic is the most pragmatic approach to this.

there are alot of people within the twin cities that have caught the
wireless bug. some anecdotal evidence from people who have been wardriving
seems to back this up.  i don't know how many of these people would be
willing to open up their access points for public access but i surmise
that there are a few and possibly a few who would be willing to setup
neighborhood access points to cover their local coffee shop,
park/playground, whatever.


> I think a face-to-face meeting of TCWUG would be a great idea, long
> overdue. I'll offer to do some show and tell at a meeting, with a
> re-cased, tower mount WAP-11 with POE, as long as the meeting happens
> before I bolt it to my chimney :-) If anyone can supply a PCMCIA-capable
> Mac (or an Intermec AP), we could do an alchemy BOF too, where Lucent
> Silver cards were upgraded to Gold.





--
steve ulrich                       sulrich at botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC


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