From tcwug-list-admin at archives.real-time.com  Tue Aug 13 23:01:31 2002
From: tcwug-list-admin at archives.real-time.com (tcwug-list-admin@archives.real-time.com)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:33:22 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] [tcwug-web] TCWUG Website, (1) maps needed & (2) mailing list
Message-ID: <001901c24347$508f41e0$0200000a@iaxs.net>

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From dante+tcwug at plethora.net  Thu Aug  1 01:28:59 2002
From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: service offerings (Read This!)
In-Reply-To: <20020727195842.R16733@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207280719480.546-100000@lithium.mol.plethora.net>

On Sat, 27 Jul 2002, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:

> <bold statement>
> I don't think it matters what anyone wants.
> </bold statement> <clarification>
>
To some extent this is true.
What _can_ be done is independent of what people want.

> Let's examine the 2 topics being discussed:
>
> 1) Overlay network
> 2) Hotspots
>
> What does #1 provide?
>
> a) A twin cities-wide network where content can be shared (such as the ftp
> mirrors at real-time).
> b) internet access via various access points that choose to have a default
> gateway and a route to the 'net
> c) hotspots that are not in-range of the rest of the wireless
> network, but are connected to it via tunnels over the internet (ie: GRE)
>
I am becoming even more convinced that this is a prerequisite
to #2. What good is a hotspot with no connectivity?

> What does #2 provide?
>
> a) internet access via various access points that choose to have a default
> gateway, and a route to the 'net
> b) connectivity to other hotspots via tunnels over the internet (ie: GRE)
>
> Now, what have people expressed a wish for (owner viewpoint):
> 1) reimbursement for cost of equipment (non profit)
This makes sense for shared equipment, and there are ways to
work with this.
> 2) profit (make money, isp-style)
That would involve another group. Any "profits" from the
operation of a TCWUG wireless network should go back
into the WUG and the network. It would be nice for the WUG
to have a small budget for community outreach, presence
at community gatherings (fairs, parades, etc.).

I don't see profits coming out of this though, we will
be best served if we simply try to share the _costs_
of the connectivity among ourselves.
And it is not going to be a cheap project, though there
are opportunities for cost savings in quite a few
areas.

> 3) connectivity to other nodes

This is the core of the whole matter.

>
> What do users want:
> 1) connectivity
> 2) alternative to slow downloads over the 'net that are from sites that
> are local (ie: real-time's ftp mirror)
I do not think that a TCWUG network should have "users" as such
until we decide that we are ready for them. Setting up a network
to be used by a relatively small group of geeks is much different
from setting up a network for general public use.

I mean, how many regular users could setup IPv6 on MSWindows?
>
>
> Conflicts:
>
> The /only/ conflict I see is where it comes to people profiting from their
> access points, I can see where people would have an issue in the following
> scenario:
>
> User connects to access point #1
>
> Access point #1 connects to <TCWUG wireless network>
>
> User gets on the net via gateway Z, which is charging User for bandwidth.
>
> access point #1 feels used because he's not making any money off it.
>
>
> Personally, I do not feel that there's any profit to be made from a network
> like this, I've worked for an ISP that tried, they are now bankrupt.

I agree with this, which is why I keep suggesting the Co-op model.
The best we can reasonably hope for is fair cost sharing. If we
happen to do better than that, cool, but nobody should be getting
hung up on "profitability" or on anyone other than the upstream
connectivity providers getting more out of the system than they
put into it.

>
> I do believe it's completely possible to build the network, keep it stable,
> and very usable. I see the network as an overlay network regardless of what
> anyone calls it (car, truck, motorcycle.. they're all still an automobile)
> different access points will decide, on their own, weither or not they're
> going to allow internet access from their access point. There's no need
> to discuss it, because it's not a group decision. The overlay vs. hotspot
> question is moot, access points that wish to connect to each other will,
> access points that either cannot, or will not, connect to the rest, won't.
>
> Any questions, or something I missed?
>
> What I Think We Need To Figure Out:
>
> Mobile IP
> Global Routing Protocol (BGP?)
> Global Network Authentication (ie, nocatauth or something custom)
>


-- 
Daniel Taylor
dante@plethora.net


From chrise at pobox.com  Thu Aug  1 13:40:42 2002
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] new Linksys WAP11 v2.2 firmware
Message-ID: <20020801142020.H11332@n0jcf.net>

A new "official" firmware showed up on the Linksys site day before
yesterday.  It is version 1.01c.  We have installed it here and preliminary
testing seems to indicate that it has fixed the MTU size problem.  We
are now running Mac laptops at 1500 MTU and they are able to do all
of the things that failed before...  such as printing, browsing to
most SSL web sites, etc. that required us to reduce the MTU to 576
previously.

We have reset the timer on the "random tip over every few days" problem
and will see if that is improved as well.  I was running a version 1.10
firmware that a Linksys tech support person gave me and it seemed
to be improved in this tip over area.  It did not fix the MTU
problem though.  Anyway, I am hopeful this 1.01c follows suit.

http://www.linksys.com/download/firmware.asp?fwid=163

gets you to the firmware I believe.

cje

-- 
Chris Elmquist   mailto:chrise@pobox.com   http://www.pobox.com/~chrise

From shad at wnoc.com  Thu Aug  1 17:08:09 2002
From: shad at wnoc.com (Jay Wineinger)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions
Message-ID: <1028240830.983.17.camel@ShadowLappy>

Im heading off to college in a few weeks and Ive already arranged to
have DSL installed into my dorm room.  Being as that its a small campus,
I would also like to set up an access point either in my room or on the
roof of the dorm so that I can roam around with my laptop a little bit.

I already own a 8dBi-omni and Im looking for a decent AP that has an
external antenna connector.  

Im faily new to wireless stuff so any recommendations on
hardware/hardware positioning/etc would be welcome.  Try and remember
this is a college student budget =)

Thanks,
Jay


From sulrich at botwerks.org  Sat Aug  3 08:54:15 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0072572F1@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0072572F1@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <20020803093114.B4887@botwerks.org>


comments inline ...


when last we saw our hero (Sunday, Jul 28, 2002), 
 Austad, Jay was madly tapping out:
> Like I said, I've never set up a network with a private AS before,
> the only ones I've set up had their own public AS number.  So I'm
> unsure as to how confederations and such fit into this, but from the
> sound of it, it seems like a confederation is simply like an OSPF
> area.

well -  from the perspective that a confederation allows you to 
break an AS up internally from an iBGP perspective much like OSPF
allows you to bust things up into areas i suppose that is true.  there
are more differences than there are similarities, but we digress. ;-)
for more information on the topic ref the following. [1]

> 
> In any case, I think we are jumping ahead of ourselves by discussing
> BGP and all that.  We don't even have a base network to play around
> with yet, the conversation just went the way it did for who knows
> what reason.  

i'll second that... w/o any nodes to play with this is largely moot.

> 
> My problem is, I live in brooklyn park, and I have lots of tall
> trees, so to set up a link with anyone else I'm going to have to get
> a nice tall mast and hope the city doesn't come over and break my
> knees for violating some ordinance.  I have a friend in North
> Minneapolis though that would likely be willing to let me put up an
> antenna at his place, and he works for a local ISP also, so it's
> possible that they might be interested in putting an antenna on
> their roof (near Surdyk's).  I'd like to put one on the roof of
> where I work, but out building people barely let us put our
> satellite feeds up there.  

i don't think that your dilemma is particularly unique here in the
twin cities.  avi and i aren't too far from each other here in ne
minneapolis and i'm pretty much at the top of the "hill" from a
topographic perspective and there's no way i'd be able to reach him
w/o some determined effort utilizing a chainsaw.  

in messing around with some decent topographic data that i managed to
get my hands on a while ago (courtesy of some friends with national
geographic maps) i saw that w/o towers or APs on big landmarks we'd 
really have our work cut out for us and no shortage of roadblocks.

handwaving about FSO and other technologies aside, putting APs on
buildings downtown is fraught with some different challenges, i.e. -
you'd have to be on top of the tallest buildings within the downtown
area with fairly high gain antennas to compensate for the LOS issues.  

putting antennas on the plymouth building (visi location) is of
dubious value given the relatively modest height of the facility and
the surrounding buildings.  getting on other buildings with decent
connectivity might be better but i surmise that this would be priced
a bit rich for our tastes.


> 
> If anyone is planning on doing this, are you looking at 802.11b, a,
> or that motorola canopy stuff?  802.11b is 1/5 the speed of 802.11a,
> and 802.11a isn't too much more expensive.  Wouldn't it make sense
> to use a faster technology?


.11a seems to offer the greatest amount of b/w for the buck but my
only hangup with it is the modest distance that it can support.  this
may not be as big an issue with the appropriate antenna h/w.  perhaps
the RF wonks amongst us can comment on this ...


{ snipped - misc previous correspondence }


references
----------

[1] - 
http://www.botwerks.org/rfc_archive/rfc-1965.txt
http://www.botwerks.org/rfc_archive/rfc-3065.txt
 
http://www.cisco.com/univercd/cc/td/doc/cisintwk/idg4/nd2003.htm#xtocid77

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From austad at marketwatch.com  Sat Aug  3 10:11:59 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA007257334@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

Dlink has a new one out which is supposedly the best one on the market.
It's $130 at MicroCenter.  $102 online.
http://192.216.185.10/mwave/doc2/659135.html

It has Dlink's turbo technology too, so if you use a Dlink turbo card with
it, you get 22Mbps instead of 11Mbps.  

Jay

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Wineinger [mailto:shad@wnoc.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:27 PM
> To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions
> 
> 
> Im heading off to college in a few weeks and Ive already arranged to
> have DSL installed into my dorm room.  Being as that its a 
> small campus,
> I would also like to set up an access point either in my room 
> or on the
> roof of the dorm so that I can roam around with my laptop a 
> little bit.
> 
> I already own a 8dBi-omni and Im looking for a decent AP that has an
> external antenna connector.  
> 
> Im faily new to wireless stuff so any recommendations on
> hardware/hardware positioning/etc would be welcome.  Try and remember
> this is a college student budget =)
> 
> Thanks,
> Jay
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - 
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> 

From austad at marketwatch.com  Sat Aug  3 10:12:46 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888122@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

> We have some good starting points for access control, but 
> there is obviously work necessary there. Does anyone have a 
> good handle on the firewalling rules necessary for bandwidth control?

I'm a Network Security Engineer, I think I have a handle on it.  :)

Jay

From veldy at veldy.net  Sat Aug  3 10:38:56 2002
From: veldy at veldy.net (Thomas T. Veldhouse)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA007257334@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <002a01c23b0b$1c68bb60$0101a8c0@cascade>

I know somebody who bought that and the same hardware claims a 20% increase.
22Mbps is more like 100%.  In either case, they claim that they don't think
they are even getting 11Mbps, so I wouldn't bother (for that reason anyway).

Tom Veldhouse

----- Original Message -----
From: "Austad, Jay" <austad@marketwatch.com>
To: <tcwug-list@tcwug.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:43 AM
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] AP suggestions


> Dlink has a new one out which is supposedly the best one on the market.
> It's $130 at MicroCenter.  $102 online.
> http://192.216.185.10/mwave/doc2/659135.html
>
> It has Dlink's turbo technology too, so if you use a Dlink turbo card with
> it, you get 22Mbps instead of 11Mbps.
>
> Jay
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jay Wineinger [mailto:shad@wnoc.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 5:27 PM
> > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions
> >
> >
> > Im heading off to college in a few weeks and Ive already arranged to
> > have DSL installed into my dorm room.  Being as that its a
> > small campus,
> > I would also like to set up an access point either in my room
> > or on the
> > roof of the dorm so that I can roam around with my laptop a
> > little bit.
> >
> > I already own a 8dBi-omni and Im looking for a decent AP that has an
> > external antenna connector.
> >
> > Im faily new to wireless stuff so any recommendations on
> > hardware/hardware positioning/etc would be welcome.  Try and remember
> > this is a college student budget =)
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jay
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List -
> > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > http://www.tcwug.org
> > tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
>



From troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us  Sat Aug  3 13:38:14 2002
From: troy.johnson at health.state.mn.us (Troy.A Johnson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Another "Project Rainbow"
Message-ID: <sd3d4ff3.051@MDH-GW1.HEALTH.STATE.MN.US>

Mentioned in a Computer World article
(sorry if this is a repeat I missed):

"Intel, IBM Push for Public Wireless LAN" 

http://www.computerworld.com/mobiletopics/mobile/technology/story/0,10801,72900,00.html

From bryan at edgar.sector14.net  Sat Aug  3 14:34:54 2002
From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <20020803093114.B4887@botwerks.org> from "steve ulrich" at Aug 03, 2002 09:31:14 AM
Message-ID: <200208032007.g73K7dQ04724@twenty.sector14.net>

steve ulrich wrote:
> 
> 
> handwaving about FSO and other technologies aside, putting APs on
> buildings downtown is fraught with some different challenges, i.e. -
> you'd have to be on top of the tallest buildings within the downtown
> area with fairly high gain antennas to compensate for the LOS issues.  
> 
> putting antennas on the plymouth building (visi location) is of
> dubious value given the relatively modest height of the facility and
> the surrounding buildings.  getting on other buildings with decent
> connectivity might be better but i surmise that this would be priced
> a bit rich for our tastes.

The tallest buildings aren't always the best for applications like this.
In a base to mobile/portable situation where you have fairly low gain
antennas, typically 8 db on the base and 5 db on the mobile, the normal
usable range for 802.11b without amplifiers on each end is only around 
a half a mile. To cover much of downtown is going to take alot more than
one site.

The plymouth building has quite a few taller buildings around it but I
believe that it's fairly open to the north so it could be used as a hub
for point-to-point links in that direction that will get us closer to
the areas that we want to cover. I believe that there's also a path down
hennepin ave which could get us to the Walker Art Center. The Walker
isn't real high but it is much more out in the open and I think that we
could talk them into letting us put something on the roof fairly easily.
They'd love the idea of having network access in the sculpture gardens.

From oinos at darkgeek.com  Sat Aug  3 16:14:04 2002
From: oinos at darkgeek.com (Jon Thorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] new Linksys WAP11 v2.2 firmware
In-Reply-To: <20020801142020.H11332@n0jcf.net>
References: <20020801142020.H11332@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <1028410923.1265.3.camel@protomonkey>

Has anyone had any luck with getting a v2.2 wap11 to work in ap-client
mode?  I've tried three different versions of the firmware (1.009,
1.010, 1.01c) with no joy.

-j

On Thu, 2002-08-01 at 14:20, Chris Elmquist wrote:
> A new "official" firmware showed up on the Linksys site day before
> yesterday.  It is version 1.01c.  We have installed it here and preliminary
> testing seems to indicate that it has fixed the MTU size problem.  We
> are now running Mac laptops at 1500 MTU and they are able to do all
> of the things that failed before...  such as printing, browsing to
> most SSL web sites, etc. that required us to reduce the MTU to 576
> previously.
> 
> We have reset the timer on the "random tip over every few days" problem
> and will see if that is improved as well.  I was running a version 1.10
> firmware that a Linksys tech support person gave me and it seemed
> to be improved in this tip over area.  It did not fix the MTU
> problem though.  Anyway, I am hopeful this 1.01c follows suit.
> 
> http://www.linksys.com/download/firmware.asp?fwid=163
> 
> gets you to the firmware I believe.
> 
> cje
> 
> -- 
> Chris Elmquist   mailto:chrise@pobox.com   http://www.pobox.com/~chrise
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list



From sulrich at botwerks.org  Sun Aug  4 05:13:51 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:24 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722181542.E805@real-time.com> <20020723045219.GF64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723114947.GA35720@botwerks.org> <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org>

outside of the cisco mobile-ip support - i know of the monarch
project[1] (out of cmu) and the mosquitonet project[2]. charles
perkins (nokia research fellow)  has been doing this for some time and
i believe his page [3] has a lot of information on it.  it's quite
workable it's just a pita to set up. ;-)


when last we saw our hero (Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002), 
 Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom was madly tapping out:
> > it might bear reviewing if folks would like the functionality.
> > although it must be pointed out that this would further burden the
> > network since the tunneling mechanisms used would be shuffling
> > packets around suboptimally. in a situation where b/w is at a
> > premium this might not be an acceptable solution. 
> 
> do you have any good links to discussions of it? I'm somewhat
> curious about it.
> 


references
----------

[1] - http://www.monarch.cs.cmu.edu/
[2] - http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/software/mip.html
[3] - http://www.iprg.nokia.com/~charliep/


-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Sun Aug  4 08:12:11 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <200208032007.g73K7dQ04724@twenty.sector14.net>
References: <20020803093114.B4887@botwerks.org> <200208032007.g73K7dQ04724@twenty.sector14.net>
Message-ID: <20020804090233.A11657@botwerks.org>

when last we saw our hero (Saturday, Aug 03, 2002), 
 Bryan Halvorson was madly tapping out:
> steve ulrich wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > handwaving about FSO and other technologies aside, putting APs on
> > buildings downtown is fraught with some different challenges, i.e. -
> > you'd have to be on top of the tallest buildings within the downtown
> > area with fairly high gain antennas to compensate for the LOS issues.  
> > 
> > putting antennas on the plymouth building (visi location) is of
> > dubious value given the relatively modest height of the facility and
> > the surrounding buildings.  getting on other buildings with decent
> > connectivity might be better but i surmise that this would be priced
> > a bit rich for our tastes.
> 
> The tallest buildings aren't always the best for applications like this.
> In a base to mobile/portable situation where you have fairly low gain
> antennas, typically 8 db on the base and 5 db on the mobile, the normal
> usable range for 802.11b without amplifiers on each end is only around 
> a half a mile. To cover much of downtown is going to take alot more than
> one site.

i definitely agree with you here.  it would seem that creating "cell"
zones with the appropriate coverage would be the way to go down here.
but i surmise that the hotspot approach for downtown would be
preferrable, given the large number of networks i've encountered
downtown with my laptop.

> The plymouth building has quite a few taller buildings around it but
> I believe that it's fairly open to the north so it could be used as
> a hub for point-to-point links in that direction that will get us
> closer to the areas that we want to cover. I believe that there's
> also a path down hennepin ave which could get us to the Walker Art
> Center. The Walker isn't real high but it is much more out in the
> open and I think that we could talk them into letting us put
> something on the roof fairly easily.  They'd love the idea of having
> network access in the sculpture gardens.

i've been reviewing some maps of downtown as of late and i think that
the best route from the plymouth building would be north (directly up
hennepin ave.).  there's not much in the way of large buildings in
that direction. 

to the south there's a fair amount construction taking place with the
new developments on block 'e' and to reach the walker would likely
require multiple hops.  the notion of putting access on the walker
is quite intriguing.  coverage of the loring park would likely be
handy especially for monday nights in the summer while i can't see
what's going on with the movie in the park, i could pull out my laptop
and be productive. 



> From the Walker we can branch off with more point-to-point links to
> other places of interest.

iirc - kent is a couple blocks away from the walker on the south side
up the hill.  i don't know what his visibility is to the walker but
that might be an option for hopping down towards uptown. 



> > > If anyone is planning on doing this, are you looking at 802.11b,
> > > a, or that motorola canopy stuff?  802.11b is 1/5 the speed of
> > > 802.11a, and 802.11a isn't too much more expensive.  Wouldn't it
> > > make sense to use a faster technology?
> > 
> > 
> > .11a seems to offer the greatest amount of b/w for the buck but my
> > only hangup with it is the modest distance that it can support.
> > this may not be as big an issue with the appropriate antenna h/w.
> > perhaps the RF wonks amongst us can comment on this ...
> 
> Well, we're going to need point-to-point links to get between the
> different areas we want to cover. The links can be whatever we need
> them to be to get the job done. I think we'll always want to have
> 802.11b at the user access points. If we start maxing it out we can
> add an 802.11a card there. If we start out using the cheaper
> equipment we can always move things around later as our needs
> change.
> 

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From dante+tcwug at plethora.net  Sun Aug  4 14:51:10 2002
From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888122@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208041519100.5134-100000@lithium.mol.plethora.net>

On Tue, 23 Jul 2002, Austad, Jay wrote:

> > We have some good starting points for access control, but
> > there is obviously work necessary there. Does anyone have a
> > good handle on the firewalling rules necessary for bandwidth control?
>
> I'm a Network Security Engineer, I think I have a handle on it.  :)
>
Woah, lag.

Good that there is someone with the experience in the group.

Now, as far as infrastructure goes, I can put myself up as a link
since I am on relatively high ground. My main problem is trees.

My cable connection will be becoming something else as soon as I
can arrange it, so for myself I dan't care about published ICBM
addresses.

-- 
Daniel Taylor
dante@plethora.net


From drechsau at geeks.org  Sun Aug  4 17:07:07 2002
From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: service offerings (Read This!)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207280719480.546-100000@lithium.mol.plethora.net>
References: <20020727195842.R16733@techmonkeys.org> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207280719480.546-100000@lithium.mol.plethora.net>
Message-ID: <20020804225700.GA60882@Geeks.ORG>

On Sun, Jul 28, 2002 at 07:37:36AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> > 2) profit (make money, isp-style)
> 
> That would involve another group. Any "profits" from the operation
> of a TCWUG wireless network should go back into the WUG and the
> network. It would be nice for the WUG to have a small budget for
> community outreach, presence at community gatherings (fairs,
> parades, etc.).

Why another group?

> I don't see profits coming out of this though, we will be best
> served if we simply try to share the _costs_ of the connectivity
> among ourselves.

Profit doesn't mean that someone is going to make money off of 'you'.

How can you share the costs of connectivity unless everyone uses the
same 'connection' type?

And don't forget the issue about ToS and such either.

> And it is not going to be a cheap project, though there are
> opportunities for cost savings in quite a few areas.

Where?

> > What do users want:
> > 1) connectivity
> > 2) alternative to slow downloads over the 'net that are from sites that
> > are local (ie: real-time's ftp mirror)
> 
> I do not think that a TCWUG network should have "users" as such
> until we decide that we are ready for them. Setting up a network to
> be used by a relatively small group of geeks is much different from
> setting up a network for general public use.

Why is it different?

> I mean, how many regular users could setup IPv6 on MSWindows?

Why would anyone want to set up IPv6 on anything right now?

> I agree with this, which is why I keep suggesting the Co-op model.

That may work, but who is going to pony up the bandwidth to start and
the money for access points?

> The best we can reasonably hope for is fair cost sharing. If we
> happen to do better than that, cool, but nobody should be getting
> hung up on "profitability" or on anyone other than the upstream
> connectivity providers getting more out of the system than they put
> into it.

I am willing to dump real money into it, once there is a model that
can offer payback and that can run without hackery and without abusive
people stealing (yes, I said stealing) services they are not helping
to cover the costs on.

-- 
Mike Horwath           IRC: Drechsau         drechsau@Geeks.ORG
Home: 763-540-6815  1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN  55427
Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself
through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period.

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Sun Aug  4 19:16:23 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: list server timewarp - was (Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722181542.E805@real-time.com> <20020723045219.GF64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723114947.GA35720@botwerks.org> <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com> <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org>
Message-ID: <20020804200146.B11657@botwerks.org>

not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but i've been running into
problems with the mail server for this list.  this message and another
batch of messages from the tclug mailing from 7/24 made it into my
mailbox this AM.  i lobbed a message to postmaster@tcwug.org a few
days back and haven't received any response.   is all well with the
server?

this smells a lot like secondary mail queues not getting serviced
until a week or so later.  if this looks to be an ongoing issue i can
provide a server to host the mailing list on that is quite well
connected and has more than ample horsepower to support the list.  

if these issues have been permanently resolved this is a non-issue,
but if this looks to be an extended situation i am happy to provide a
stable home for the list if need be.

incidently - regarding a pipermail replacement, i highly recommend
mhonarc [1] as a replacement.  this works quite nicely with the latest
release of mailman and provides a lot of functionality that it would
seem pipermail botched in the past.  (support for multi-part mime
messages, charset conversion, etc.)

i've been running this on a rather high-volume list (well in excess of
100+ postings a day) and it runs quite nicely.  obviates much of the
pipermail nastiness.



when last we saw our hero (Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002), 
 steve ulrich was madly tapping out:
> 
> outside of the cisco mobile-ip support - i know of the monarch
> project[1] (out of cmu) and the mosquitonet project[2]. charles
> perkins (nokia research fellow)  has been doing this for some time
> and i believe his page [3] has a lot of information on it.  it's
> quite workable it's just a pita to set up. ;-)
> 
> 
> when last we saw our hero (Tuesday, Jul 23, 2002), Carl Wilhelm
> Soderstrom was madly tapping out:
> > > it might bear reviewing if folks would like the functionality.
> > > although it must be pointed out that this would further burden
> > > the network since the tunneling mechanisms used would be
> > > shuffling packets around suboptimally. in a situation where b/w
> > > is at a premium this might not be an acceptable solution. 
> > 
> > do you have any good links to discussions of it? I'm somewhat
> > curious about it.
> > 
> 
> 
> references 
> ----------
> 
> [1] - http://www.monarch.cs.cmu.edu/
> [2] - http://mosquitonet.stanford.edu/software/mip.html
> [3] - http://www.iprg.nokia.com/~charliep/
> 
> 

{ snipped - misc .signatures }

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Sun Aug  4 22:23:08 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] monthly mtg. reminder (08/06/2002)
Message-ID: <20020804231349.A12629@botwerks.org>


just a reminder and open invitation to folks interested in wireless
networking technology.  the monthly meeting of the twin cities
wireless users group is scheduled for this coming tuesday (august 6,
2002).  

the twin cities wireless users group is a place to learn about
wireless networking technology, an opportunity to get your hands dirty
with a fun community oriented project or just meet some of the locals
who are doing fun things in the wireless area.
  
all with an interest are welcome.  if you can't make it but you are
interested in the technology you may be interested in the mailing
list.  more information regarding the wireless users group mailing
list can be found at the following url.
  
                  http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/

topic
-----
this month the floor is open for discussion regarding the construction
of a community network and some of the challenges that will need to be
addressed in the construction of such a network.

  
*LOGISTICS*
-----------
  
time
----------------------------------------------------------------------
6:30PM CDT - august 6, 2002

location
----------------------------------------------------------------------
cisco systems - bloomington office
international plaza
7900 international drive
suite 400
bloomington, mn 55425


directions
----------------------------------------------------------------------

from the north
--------------

* take 35w south
* take 494 east to the 34th avenue exit, turn right
* immediately veer right and take the next right at the light onto
  80th street.
* take the next immediate right onto international drive.


from the south
--------------
just like coming from the north except you take 35w north to 494.

from the (east|west)
--------------------
reaching 35w and following the above directions is left as an exercise
for the reader/attendee.


after you make it onto international drive ...

* international plaza is the large blue glass building to your left.
* you may park in the ramp and take the ramp elevators to level 1.
  proceed through the glass doors to your right and down the lobby foyer
  the main bank of elevators. take the elevator to level 4

note: you will need to sign in at the guard desk and indicate that you
are there for the wireless users group meeting in the cisco office in
suite 400.





-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From drechsau at geeks.org  Mon Aug  5 07:12:37 2002
From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207230916530.29306-100000@lithium.mol.plethora.net>
References: <20020723043853.GA64770@Geeks.ORG> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0207230916530.29306-100000@lithium.mol.plethora.net>
Message-ID: <20020725144057.GA93374@Geeks.ORG>

On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:22:42AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Mike Horwath wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2002 at 09:03:34AM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> > > On Sat, 20 Jul 2002, Mike Horwath wrote:
> > >
> > > > I do not think that is the reason at all.
> > >
> > > Just because my email address is downstream of you
> > > doesn't mean that is where my access is.
> >
> > Why would I assume such?
> >
> > > Don't assume.
> >
> > You are assuming I did.
> 
> OK, you just casually go around accusing people of lying
> and talk like you have personnally been offended by them.
> 
> That makes sense.

Context is something you seem to lose sight of from time to time.

I know who plethora.net is, I never assumed you get bandwidth through
VISI.com or via a tin can and string to your mothers fathers sisters
boyfriends cousins daughter.

> You obviously made _some_ assumptions about me with your
> initial reply, and I have no idea where you got them
> from.

I made the assumption that you would keep up.

I have issues with this TCWUG group, it is fractured (I am not helping
in that respect), the goals are thin and at times undefined, and I
*know* of people who are within this group that are not looking for
benefits for all.

I am stirring up the pot, pushing buttons, and hopefully getting
people to think.  To do things like this, you gotta push,
unfortunately you originally stated that you were not going to be
offended, but every post of yours states, without saying the exact
words, that you are offended.

But it starts you thinking...

-- 
Mike Horwath           IRC: Drechsau         drechsau@Geeks.ORG
Home: 763-540-6815  1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN  55427
Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself
through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period.

From drechsau at geeks.org  Mon Aug  5 07:31:11 2002
From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <20020723095148.F805@real-time.com>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0072572A5@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020723095148.F805@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020725144416.GB93374@Geeks.ORG>

On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 09:51:48AM -0500, Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> 	anything larger than several hundred geeks, gets too impersonal and
> unwieldy (compare the Internet of several years ago; or the BBS scene; to
> the Net of today); so I'm kind of opposed to it. In short, being an ISP does
> not bring happiness; being part of a community of clueful people comes much
> closer. That's just my view, tho. Feel free to discuss. :)

You can have both.

I agree that when you get large, it starts to become less personal,
but the community can rise to the top and contribute.

In fact, some people can become rabid supporters or dissenters.  Still
part of the community.

Even the place I work has a community.  It is kind of inbred and rabid
and weird, but a community it is.

-- 
Mike Horwath           IRC: Drechsau         drechsau@Geeks.ORG
Home: 763-540-6815  1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN  55427
Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself
through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period.

From drechsau at geeks.org  Mon Aug  5 07:50:44 2002
From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <20020723003307.H23877@real-time.com>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722191519.M82857@madgenius.com> <20020723045438.GG64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723003307.H23877@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG>

On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 12:33:07AM -0500, Bob Tanner wrote:
> You want something that can (gotten from the poorly named thread Richochet
> boxes?):
> 
> provide QoS (ala traffic shapping?) 
> accounting (ala RADIUS-like stuff?) 
> logging (what do you want to log?)
> authentication 
> Something that works on other those "other" operating systems
> 
> That a list of basic (drechsau) requirements ?

Basically.

Let me break it down further:

	QoS as needed, allow people to perhaps purchase levels of
	service, offer 'times' where things are more open, set up the
	network to handle far more than 3 people all downloading
	Warcraft III.

	Authentication and accounting (which is the logging) to allow
	a model of 'pay for use', to help track down 'abuse', to allow
	reports to be drawn up to show how well the business model is
	working when it is time for the next round of 'funding'.
	Logging is not about privacy invading information.  Logging
	could be anonymized logs from a transparent cache server to
	determine where the next 'connection' should come from when
	dealing with local connections.  Etc.

	Limiting to an OS sucks, I think it needs to be worked on for
	far more than 'one'.  The marketing level of a system doesn't
	mean the system is the right one :)

What we need is a 'standard' for doing stuff via the AP and things
would be far more fun and easy for keeping 'abuse', 'theft', and
overall 'sharing' at acceptable levels.

-- 
Mike Horwath           IRC: Drechsau         drechsau@Geeks.ORG
Home: 763-540-6815  1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN  55427
Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself
through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period.

From dante+tcwug at plethora.net  Mon Aug  5 08:37:05 2002
From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] http://maps.tcwug.org
In-Reply-To: <20020725144057.GA93374@Geeks.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208050920120.15821-100000@lithium.mol.plethora.net>

I overreacted. Sorry about the noise folks.

-- 
Daniel Taylor
dante@plethora.net


From moebius at bitstream.net  Mon Aug  5 09:32:01 2002
From: moebius at bitstream.net (Joe Robertson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
Message-ID: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net>

I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS that are about six blocks apart.  I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas.

This project needs a cheap but reliable connection.  I'm currently looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other suggestions.

Thanks,

Joe

From jeffr at odeon.net  Mon Aug  5 09:38:05 2002
From: jeffr at odeon.net (jeffr@odeon.net)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208050905340.2787-100000@titan.odeon.net>

I've got what may be a simplistic scenario, and may not even be
feasible, so if this is foolish or far too simplistic please let me
know...

Should the TCWUG network develop into a metro-wide wireless network
without direct internet access, and using a non-routed IP block, then
couldn't those people that have broadband set up something like the
following?

Say I've got broadband (DSL, Cable, other).  Chances are I've got a
firewall, and if I don't I probably should.  Could I not make a 3-legged
firewall and put my broadband connection on one port, my private network
on another port, and a wireless access point connected to the third port?

This would allow me to use ipsec or pptp from the wireless network to
connect to my home network, and from there get out to the greater
internet.

I could share my access point as a means of connecting to the larger TCWUG
wireless network, but not provide internet access to anyone else via my
broadband connection.

Would something like this not solve most of the problems people have been
bringing up?

I now have a responsibility on my end to monitor usage of my own internet
connection.  If I choose I can share my broadband connection with my
friends (assuming a ToS that allows that of course) but not with the
whole Twin Cities.

Those businesses that want to (realtime?, visi?, others?) can provide a
gateway service of sorts for some hopefully nominal fee.  The burden is
then on them for authentication and accounting for their customers.  The
same burden that they have for all of their other customers.

The wireless network wouldn't need to use a routed IP address range.  When
I connect to my home network I'd get an IP from my private network which
is behind my NATing firewall.  Anything that I can do from home I can do
from my laptop at the neighborhood coffee shop.  Should I wish to pay an
ISP for a gateway service then I'll get a routed IP from them and can do
anything on the internet (including use those services that are difficult
to provide for with a NATed address).

Now, there obviously wouldn't be unlimited bandwidth on the wireless
network, and I realize I'm treating the entire wireless network as
essentially one big lan which may not be feasible.  Someone would have to
host a DHCP server for this thing.  Broadcast domains would have to be
created.  Realistically though, those are design issues and shouldn't be
impossible to solve.  I'm sure there are many other issues that I haven't
thought of, but that's what a discussion like this is for.

Still, it seems to me to address some of the sticking points that the
group has been getting caught up on.  The TCWUG would not be in the
position of providing a means of internet theft and as such have no
liability should Qwest or AT&T get upset and decide to throw their lawyers
at a perceived problem.

The group no longer needs to worry about authentication.  That would be
handled by those ISPs providing a gateway service, or by those people that
want to be able to access their home network and broadband connection via
the wireless network.

Accounting may still be an issue.  Usage will need to be monitored to
determine where more bandwidth needs to be allocated.  Perhaps an 11 Mbps
backbone won't be sufficient for the network.  Once the backbone is faster
than the rest of the network the group would need to determine what
branches off the backbone need to be upgraded.  A group of APs in St.
Louis Park may need more than 11 Mbps, while other parts of the Cities
aren't even close to saturating their 11Mbps to the backbone.

Such a system is OS independent.  I can establish a PPTP or IPSEC
connection to connect to a gateway service from Linux, BSD, MacOS, or
Windows.

Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple for Joe
User.  Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and you're on the
network.  You can't get out to the internet at this point, but you can
access any services being provided on the wireless network.  A community
intranet of sorts perhaps.  If the user wants to get out to the internet
then they either need to figure out how to correctly set up their home
network (and be providing an access point on the wireless network) or they
need to purchase a gateway service from an ISP.  If they are doing it on
there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps the TCLUG
mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall.  If they are
purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call the ISP for technical
support.

Jeff


On Thu, 25 Jul 2002, Mike Horwath wrote:

> On Tue, Jul 23, 2002 at 12:33:07AM -0500, Bob Tanner wrote:
> > You want something that can (gotten from the poorly named thread Richochet
> > boxes?):
> >
> > provide QoS (ala traffic shapping?)
> > accounting (ala RADIUS-like stuff?)
> > logging (what do you want to log?)
> > authentication
> > Something that works on other those "other" operating systems
> >
> > That a list of basic (drechsau) requirements ?
>
> Basically.
>
> Let me break it down further:
>
> 	QoS as needed, allow people to perhaps purchase levels of
> 	service, offer 'times' where things are more open, set up the
> 	network to handle far more than 3 people all downloading
> 	Warcraft III.
>
> 	Authentication and accounting (which is the logging) to allow
> 	a model of 'pay for use', to help track down 'abuse', to allow
> 	reports to be drawn up to show how well the business model is
> 	working when it is time for the next round of 'funding'.
> 	Logging is not about privacy invading information.  Logging
> 	could be anonymized logs from a transparent cache server to
> 	determine where the next 'connection' should come from when
> 	dealing with local connections.  Etc.
>
> 	Limiting to an OS sucks, I think it needs to be worked on for
> 	far more than 'one'.  The marketing level of a system doesn't
> 	mean the system is the right one :)
>
> What we need is a 'standard' for doing stuff via the AP and things
> would be far more fun and easy for keeping 'abuse', 'theft', and
> overall 'sharing' at acceptable levels.
>
>


From natecars at real-time.com  Mon Aug  5 09:52:53 2002
From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
In-Reply-To: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208051037060.7871-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Joe Robertson wrote:
> I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS
> that are about six blocks apart.  I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds
> and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas.
>
> This project needs a cheap but reliable connection.  I'm currently
> looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other
> suggestions.

From cheath at interlinkcom.com  Mon Aug  5 10:26:24 2002
From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F3A4@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>

I would echo the same sentiment. The Tsunami products are excellent
performers at at the right price. 




-----Original Message-----
From: Nate Carlson [mailto:natecars@real-time.com]
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 10:38 AM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link


On Mon, 5 Aug 2002, Joe Robertson wrote:
> I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS
> that are about six blocks apart.  I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds
> and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas.
>
> This project needs a cheap but reliable connection.  I'm currently
> looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other
> suggestions.

From andyw at pobox.com  Mon Aug  5 11:00:02 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:25 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
In-Reply-To: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net>; from moebius@bitstream.net on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:57:28AM -0500
References: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <20020805113948.A12899@florence.linkmargin.com>

Joe Robertson wrote:
> I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS that are about six blocks apart.  I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas.
> 
> This project needs a cheap but reliable connection.  I'm currently looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other suggestions.

I think you'll be very happy with this choice. WMUX stuff is
reliable as hell, works exactly as advertised and should serve
you well for years.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From moebius at bitstream.net  Mon Aug  5 11:16:42 2002
From: moebius at bitstream.net (Joe Robertson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
In-Reply-To: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net>
References: <20020805145728.GA5354@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net>

Thanks for all the replies.  Let me throw an addendum.  Does anyone have any recommended local installers/VARs?

Thans again,

Joe

On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:57:28AM -0500, Joe Robertson wrote:

> I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS that are about six blocks apart.  I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas.
> 
> This project needs a cheap but reliable connection.  I'm currently looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Aug  5 11:23:51 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] wireless security blackpaper
Message-ID: <20020725105240.C13618@real-time.com>

this looks like a *really* good introduction to wireless security. 
anyone have comments/criticisms about it?

http://arstechnica.com/paedia/w/wireless/security-1.html

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Network Engineer
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Mon Aug  5 12:49:04 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] wireless security blackpaper
In-Reply-To: <20020725105240.C13618@real-time.com>
References: <20020725105240.C13618@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020805182716.GB80876@botwerks.org>

actually i ran across this paper a little while back (well taking into
consideration the time warp) and i was actually quite impressed with
it.  it's pretty objective and quite accurate factually.  

it's not too deep but does touch on some of the elements which people
might want a little more info on.  (comparisons of leap, wep keys,
etc.) i recommend it - although it did come from a pc magazine. ;-)

when last we saw our hero (Thursday, Jul 25, 2002), 
 Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom was madly tapping out:
> this looks like a *really* good introduction to wireless security. 
> anyone have comments/criticisms about it?
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/paedia/w/wireless/security-1.html
> 

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Mon Aug  5 19:28:33 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] misc. administravia ... mostly ORA in nature
Message-ID: <20020806004946.GA84936@botwerks.org>


all-

there are a few items of administravia that i would be remiss in not
addressing.  these are mostly oreilly and associates administravia in
nature ... so without further ado ...


attached are (3) emails from oreilly and associates regarding items of
varying interest to the parties in this user group.  i'll attempt to
get these out to the group as i get them. as many of you will note not
all of this (in fact little of it) is regarding wireless technology.  
still there are some good geeky nuggets in there.  

of tangential interest is a drawing to be held to allow a winning
member a chance at winning a trip to the mac os x conference in santa
clara, ca on sept 30 - oct 3, 2002.  we're supposed to hold a drawing
at our next meeting to determine who our candidate contestant will be.
as the user group coordinator i will then submit the winners name for
the final drawing.  

here's the skinny regarding the prize...

The winning pass* includes:
-Access to all conference sessions October 1-3 including keynotes*
-Admission to Exhibit Hall
-Admission to all on-site evening events     
-All conference handouts (excluding tutorial materials)
-Three breakfasts and three lunches

*Pass does not include tutorial fees, lodging, and transportation.


the deadline for submissions is august 7, 2002.  so getting this
squared away tomorrow will be sneaking it in just under the wire. 
for those of you who won't be able to join us tomorrow ... first off
shame on you, if you want your name to be added to the drawing drop me
an email and i'll make sure that you have an entry in the hat.

below are the details regarding the drawing from oreilly ans
associates.

legalese to follow - if you're not cool with these rules you might
want to refrain from dropping your name in the hat. ;-)
----------------------------------------------------------------------


THESE RULES CONSTITUTE THE OFFICIAL RULES OF THIS RAFFLE. BY
PARTICIPATING IN THE RAFFLE, ENTRANTS AGREE TO BE BOUND BY THE
OFFICIAL RULES AND THE DECISION OF THE JUDGES, WHICH ARE FINAL AND
BINDING IN ALL RESPECTS.

1. Entry:
No purchase is necessary to enter the raffle. To enter the raffle,
Please email Marsee Henon at marsee@oreilly.com and tell her to enter
your group for the raffle. Entries must be received at O'Reilly &
Associates by August 9, 2002. Limit one entry per group, per email
address. O'Reilly & Associates and its agents are not responsible for
lost, late, misdirected, incomplete, illegible or damaged email that
results from any source. By entering, entrant agrees to abide by and
be bound by the Official Rules. O'Reilly & Associates reserves the
right to cancel the raffle if it becomes technically corrupted.

2. Eligibility:
The O'Reilly Raffle is open to all who are 18 years of age or older,
and reside in the U.S. or Canada, except employees of O'Reilly &
Associates. Anyone else directly involved in this raffle is ineligible
to participate. Raffle void where prohibited by law. All federal,
state, and local laws apply.

3. Selection and Notification:
The winners will be chosen at random from all eligible entries
submitted by August 7, 2002. O'Reilly will notify winners by email or
phone. A prize not claimed by September 30 will not be awarded.  The
odds of winning depend on the number of eligible entries received.

4. Other Rules:
a) The prize is nontransferable and non-endorsable; no cash or other
substitutions will be offered. All federal, state, and local taxes and
delivery charges are the sole responsibility of the winner.

b) The winner consents to the use of his/her name and/or likeness for
publicity, advertising, and commercial purposes, in perpetuity,
without further compensation unless prohibited by law. O'Reilly &
Associates and its agents are not responsible for lost entries, or for
and availability of information or for Internet, for whatever reason.
Entries will be disqualified if O'Reilly & Associates determines, at
its sole discretion, that entrants have attempted to circumvent the
terms and conditions of these rules. All decisions by O'Reilly &
Associates are final.

c) By participating in this raffle, entrants agree to release and hold
O'Reilly & Associates (and their employees, agents, representatives,
or affiliated companies) harmless from any and all losses, damages,
rights, claims, and actions of any kind in connection with the prize,
including, without limitation, personal injuries, death or property
damage, and claims based on publicity rights, defamation, or invasion
of privacy.

d) Entrant also agrees that in no event shall O'Reilly & Associates or
its agents be liable to entrant or any other person for any damage,
injuries or losses arising out of the introduction of any virus, bug
or software malfunction resulting from participation in this raffle,
or for any damage, injuries or losses arising in connection with the
prize.

e) O'Reilly & Associates reserves the right to modify the rules of the
raffle in any way or at any time, as long as reasonable notice is
given.

f) To receive the name of the winner, or a copy of the Official Rules,
send a self-addressed, stamped envelope to: O'Reilly Open Source
Convention UG Raffle, c/o O'Reilly & Associates, 1005 Gravenstein
Highway North, Sebastopol, CA 95472, Attn: Marsee Henon, Post-marked
prior to the close of the raffle (August 7, 2002).










-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC
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From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Mon Aug  5 21:06:06 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208050905340.2787-100000@titan.odeon.net>; from jeffr@odeon.net on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500
References: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208050905340.2787-100000@titan.odeon.net>
Message-ID: <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org>

On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500, jeffr@odeon.net wrote:
> 

[snip good content, see summary]

> Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple for Joe
> User.  Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and you're on the
> network.  You can't get out to the internet at this point, but you can
> access any services being provided on the wireless network.  A community
> intranet of sorts perhaps.  If the user wants to get out to the internet
> then they either need to figure out how to correctly set up their home
> network (and be providing an access point on the wireless network) or they
> need to purchase a gateway service from an ISP.  If they are doing it on
> there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps the TCLUG
> mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall.  If they are
> purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call the ISP for technical
> support.
> 
> Jeff

Excellent, this is exactly what I've been thinking. 

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From austad at marketwatch.com  Mon Aug  5 21:15:12 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Doppler on what?
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088881E7@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

> Jay originally mentioned/implied voice having doppler was the 
> concern, not the RF carrier and subcarrier concerns.  He 
> clarified later that it might be a channel spacing or similar 
> concern: this is much more likely.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was voice.  I was talking RF on that post.


Jay

From shad at wnoc.com  Mon Aug  5 22:18:30 2002
From: shad at wnoc.com (Jay Wineinger)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] AP suggestions
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA007257334@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <002a01c23b0b$1c68bb60$0101a8c0@cascade>
Message-ID: <00e301c23cfd$912ad110$0201a8c0@shadowlappy>

I think you guys are talking about the DLink DWL-900AP+.  So is the 22Mb a
proprietary thing, or will other manufacturers (lucent perhaps) come out
with a compatable pcmcia card?

Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <veldy@veldy.net>
To: <tcwug-list@tcwug.org>
Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] AP suggestions


> I know somebody who bought that and the same hardware claims a 20%
increase.
> 22Mbps is more like 100%.  In either case, they claim that they don't
think
> they are even getting 11Mbps, so I wouldn't bother (for that reason
anyway).
>
> Tom Veldhouse
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Austad, Jay" <austad@marketwatch.com>
> To: <tcwug-list@tcwug.org>
> Sent: Saturday, August 03, 2002 10:43 AM
> Subject: RE: [TCWUG] AP suggestions
>
>
> > Dlink has a new one out which is supposedly the best one on the market.
> > It's $130 at MicroCenter.  $102 online.
> > http://192.216.185.10/mwave/doc2/659135.html
> >
> > It has Dlink's turbo technology too, so if you use a Dlink turbo card
with
> > it, you get 22Mbps instead of 11Mbps.
> >
> > Jay
> >



From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Aug  5 22:35:15 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org>; from poptix@techmonkeys.org on Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:40:58PM -0500
References: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208050905340.2787-100000@titan.odeon.net> <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <20020805231656.B1219@real-time.com>

On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:40:58PM -0500, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500, jeffr@odeon.net wrote:
> > 
> 
> [snip good content, see summary]
> 
> > Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple for Joe
> > User.  Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and you're on the
> > network.  You can't get out to the internet at this point, but you can
> > access any services being provided on the wireless network.  A community
> > intranet of sorts perhaps.  If the user wants to get out to the internet
> > then they either need to figure out how to correctly set up their home
> > network (and be providing an access point on the wireless network) or they
> > need to purchase a gateway service from an ISP.  If they are doing it on
> > there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps the TCLUG
> > mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall.  If they are
> > purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call the ISP for technical
> > support.
> > 
> > Jeff
> 
> Excellent, this is exactly what I've been thinking. 

I've pretty much had the same thought as well, since the first meeting.

the time you have to worry about authentication and traffic accounting, is
if someone from across the wireless network, wants to use your system as a
gateway to the Internet. (i.e. as an ISP) 
those who want to provide such a service, can probably be bothered to learn
how to set up NoCatAuth, or some workalike for win32/netscreen/whatever.

the gray area are those people who are willing to serve as relays on the
wireless network; but not necessarily as gateways to the Internet. I think
they'll have to decide for themselves whether they want to
authenticate/account their traffic or not.

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Mon Aug  5 23:26:56 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org>
References: <20020725145500.GC93374@Geeks.ORG> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208050905340.2787-100000@titan.odeon.net> <20020805214058.F5338@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <20020805233033.A13947@botwerks.org>

this is essentially what i've been doing with my access point and it
works quite nicely.  i have placed my AP within the DMZ on my network,
i don't allow any tcp or udp traffic out of the network unless it's on
port 22 (ssh).  all http traffic is transparently proxied to a web
server which is running on that segment and informs the user that they
cannot use this AP unless they have a tunneling mechanism in place. 

by not allowing any tcp traffic outside of this segment (excepting
ssh traffic) and not allowing anything other than protocol
47/50/51/120 traffic outside of the network you effectively make the
segment useless for anyone who isn't tunneling through to the internet
via an access concentrator at their ISP (or their corporate network).

this model can be extended to allow selectively opening up the network
to folks using techniques like nocatauth or for the adventurous with
hardware to burn pppoe or something else.  (hark - ipsec access for
wug members?)  

for nodes where there are links to other locations within the WUG
network (wireless ptp links) traffic can be tunneled appropriately to
the other location and the remainder of the network. 

this is a very simple, stable and straightforward technique that we
can create cookie-cutter implementations of like we were discussing at
our 2nd meeting.  

jeff - you're not missing out on anything, the problem domain has just
been obfuscated. ;-)


when last we saw our hero (Monday, Aug 05, 2002), 
 Matthew S. Hallacy was madly tapping out:
> On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 10:20:53AM -0500, jeffr@odeon.net wrote:
> > 
> 
> [snip good content, see summary]
> 
> > Basic connectivity to the wireless network should be fairly simple
> > for Joe User.  Plug in a wireless nic, configure for DHCP, and
> > you're on the network.  You can't get out to the internet at this
> > point, but you can access any services being provided on the
> > wireless network.  A community intranet of sorts perhaps.  If the
> > user wants to get out to the internet then they either need to
> > figure out how to correctly set up their home network (and be
> > providing an access point on the wireless network) or they need to
> > purchase a gateway service from an ISP.  If they are doing it on
> > there own they could get help from this mailing list, or perhaps
> > the TCLUG mailing list if they are using linux for their firewall.
> > If they are purchasing a service from an ISP, then they can call
> > the ISP for technical support.
> > 
> > Jeff
> 
> Excellent, this is exactly what I've been thinking. 
> 
> 

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From bryan at edgar.sector14.net  Tue Aug  6 00:49:56 2002
From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:26 2005
Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <20020805231656.B1219@real-time.com> from "Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom" at Aug 05, 2002 11:17:01 PM
Message-ID: <200208060627.g766Rjl14931@twenty.sector14.net>

Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> 
> 
> the gray area are those people who are willing to serve as relays on the
> wireless network; but not necessarily as gateways to the Internet. I think
> they'll have to decide for themselves whether they want to
> authenticate/account their traffic or not.

I'm willing to serve as a relay point. I'm on a ridge on the north
side of Apple Valley and have an 80 foot tower for my Ham Radio
antennas. I already have a 2.4 gig omni antenna up and am planning a
point-to-point link to the south side of Lakeville to a friend with a
120 foot tower. I don't have a computer put together to run it yet but 
I haven't been in a hurry so far. We could put three or more of the big 
Andrew 24 db gain antennas on my tower without any problems. 

From mail at RobWentworth.com  Tue Aug  6 02:07:53 2002
From: mail at RobWentworth.com (Rob Wentworth)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: mobile IP for 802.11b (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088881FE@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <OE258ZtP0kvdIBirXXe00000868@hotmail.com>

An interesting article on using VPN for mobile IP with 802.11b, etc.:
http://www.embedded.com/story/OEG20010628S0054

----- Original Message -----
From: "Austad, Jay" <austad@marketwatch.com>
To: <tcwug-list@tcwug.org>
Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:17 AM
Subject: RE: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)


> > > BGP is typically used as an external routing protocol.  The only
> > > reason you would want to run BGP internally is if you have a large
> > > network with internet connections all over in different
> > places, then
> > > you could propagate your BGP tables internally and traffic would
> > > always leave the network at the best internet connection
> > for the network you are trying to reach.
> >
> > you know, that does actually sound like what we're
> > trying to do. :) (at least as I see it).
>
> Yeah, but the problem here is that you are unlikely to convince your ISP
to
> give you a BGP session over your DSL or cable modem.  So running BGP on
your
> internal network will do you no good if you can't get tables from the
> outside world.  We'd need to get a bunch of T1's for this to work.  Also,
> we'd need to get routers which could actually run BGP without pegging the
> CPU, and lots of memory or we'll have to summarize the tables quite a bit.
> Zebra supports BGP, but in my experience, Zebra is flaky.  I haven't used
> BGP with it, but with OSPF and RIP, it has problems.
>
> Jay
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Tue Aug  6 02:42:24 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: QoS, accounting, authentication - Was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?
In-Reply-To: <200208060627.g766Rjl14931@twenty.sector14.net>; from bryan@edgar.sector14.net on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 01:27:45AM -0500
References: <20020805231656.B1219@real-time.com> <200208060627.g766Rjl14931@twenty.sector14.net>
Message-ID: <20020806031246.G5338@techmonkeys.org>

On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 01:27:45AM -0500, Bryan Halvorson wrote:

> I'm willing to serve as a relay point. I'm on a ridge on the north
> side of Apple Valley and have an 80 foot tower for my Ham Radio
> antennas. I already have a 2.4 gig omni antenna up and am planning a
> point-to-point link to the south side of Lakeville to a friend with a
> 120 foot tower. I don't have a computer put together to run it yet but 
> I haven't been in a hurry so far. We could put three or more of the big 
> Andrew 24 db gain antennas on my tower without any problems. 
> 

*perk!* Apple Valley you say? Got some GPS coordinates so I can see
just how far from me you are? I've got access to a tall-ish hill that
can see south pretty well in IGH.  You might want to take a look at
http://maps.tcwug.org, e-mail me a password and I can add you right away.


> >From up on my tower I have line of sight to a large portion of the
> cities including both downtowns.
> 
> -- 
> Bryan Halvorson
> bryan@edgar.sector14.net

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Tue Aug  6 14:29:13 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: service offerings (was: Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888210@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888210@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <20020726205837.GA72214@botwerks.org>

when last we saw our hero (Friday, Jul 26, 2002), 
 Austad, Jay was madly tapping out:
> > > I haven't used BGP with it, but with OSPF and RIP, it has
> > > problems.
> > 	well, it's open source, we know what to do. :) buying Cisco
> > 	gear (even used) would probably put the whole affair out of
> > 	the price range of anything but a commercial enterprise.
> 
> Yeah, well there are plenty of other manufacturers out there that
> make comparable routers at 1/3 the price of Cisco.  Don't get me
> wrong, I think they make a decent product, but it's way overpriced,
> even with a fat discount.

actually - i've been liking zebra a lot lately.  i've been quite
impressed with the quality of the BGP and OSPF implementations, and
i've got access to routers with really good implementations of both
routing prototols.

> > 	personally, I"m in favor of the "90% solution". knowing that
> > 	the last 10% of performance (speed, reliability, whatever)
> > 	often costs 10x as much, I'm in favor of building something as
> > 	cheaply as reasonable (not necessarily as cheaply as
> > 	possible), that can be grown with better equipment as it
> > 	becomes available.  first let's make it work, then let's make
> > 	it work well. :)
> 
> Awww yeah, linux and BSD routers.  :)

running a routing protocol on the gateway for the locations is a very
workable solution and likely the most cost effective given that these
will more likely than not be cheap unix boxen.

the real issue for this deployment is the ability to reach one
location from another. do we have any realistic deployment locations
for p2p links?

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From drechsau at geeks.org  Tue Aug  6 20:32:21 2002
From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] monthly mtg. reminder (08/06/2002)
In-Reply-To: <20020804231349.A12629@botwerks.org>
References: <20020804231349.A12629@botwerks.org>
Message-ID: <20020807020801.GB32209@Geeks.ORG>

On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 11:13:49PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote:
> just a reminder and open invitation to folks interested in wireless
> networking technology.  the monthly meeting of the twin cities
> wireless users group is scheduled for this coming tuesday (august 6,
> 2002).  

FOOOK!

I forgot all about this today :(

SHEEIT!

Hope everyone had fun.

-- 
Mike Horwath           IRC: Drechsau         drechsau@Geeks.ORG
Home: 763-540-6815  1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN  55427
Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself
through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period.

From drechsau at geeks.org  Tue Aug  6 20:32:30 2002
From: drechsau at geeks.org (Mike Horwath)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: list server timewarp - was (Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <20020804200146.B11657@botwerks.org>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA0088880F2@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020722181542.E805@real-time.com> <20020723045219.GF64770@Geeks.ORG> <20020723114947.GA35720@botwerks.org> <20020723095718.G805@real-time.com> <20020723154520.GB37753@botwerks.org> <20020804200146.B11657@botwerks.org>
Message-ID: <20020807020933.GC32209@Geeks.ORG>

On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:01:46PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote:
> not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but i've been running into
> problems with the mail server for this list.  this message and
> another batch of messages from the tclug mailing from 7/24 made it
> into my mailbox this AM.  i lobbed a message to postmaster@tcwug.org
> a few days back and haven't received any response.  is all well with
> the server?

I have offered hardware and colocation for the list as well :(

-- 
Mike Horwath           IRC: Drechsau         drechsau@Geeks.ORG
Home: 763-540-6815  1901 Sumter Ave N, Golden Valley, MN  55427
Opinions stated in this message, or any message posted by myself
through my Geeks.ORG address, are mine and mine alone, period.

From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Tue Aug  6 21:38:24 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain
Message-ID: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com>

I found the following passage from one of my engineering reference books
concerning microwave propagation:

"Effects of rain attenuation are considered negligible on frequencies
below 7000 Mhz. The susceptance of signals above 10,000 Mhz to
absorption and scattering by rainfall sometimes limits their application
to short path distances. This factor merits close attention in those
regions noted for heavy rainfall and, in general, when a high level of
reliability is necessary for transmission-line protective relaying,
remote supervisory control, and similar critical applications."

(Standard Handbook for Electrical Engineers, 11th Ed. Fink and Beatty,
pp. 16-99 to 16-100, F.R. Nelson, section author)

The above, as noted, is in the context of protective relaying for power
systems requiring at least a 99.99% reliability: that's at least a 40db
fade margin. These links are in operational fixed service. A street
wireless network, however, will find it's place in the land mobile
model. The environment surrounding the laptop will present attenuation
due to foliage and structures, multipath, and destructive fading. Fade
margins to achieve an acceptable level of service will have to approach
that of 40 db, else the loss of packets may be intolerable, and render
the AP useless at greater than very localized distances.

Achieving talk distances greater than a few hundred feet may be
problematic in an environment of concrete, steel, and trees at microwave
frequencies with power levels of 30 mW.

It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in
calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational
fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e.
Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and
electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would <not> rule out the
effects of these conditions.

IIRC, I read a propaganda sheet from a manufacturer of ACSB (Amplitude
Compandered Sideband) equipment that noted of the failure of an 800 Mhz
(trunked?) system due to rainfall in Florida.

Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com


From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Tue Aug  6 22:12:02 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain
In-Reply-To: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com>; from nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com on Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 10:21:18PM -0500
References: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <20020806224742.K5338@techmonkeys.org>

On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 10:21:18PM -0500, Neal wrote:

> It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in
> calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational
> fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e.
> Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and
> electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would <not> rule out the
> effects of these conditions.
> 

I never had problems with rain even on the 20-something mile links, snow
wasn't a problem either. Fog, now that caused problems =) Not saying it
isn't possible, but the biggest concern was the wind from the storm tearing
apart the zip ties holding the antennas up =)

The links should be setup so that a bird taking a dump on the 
feed horn doesn't cause problems..

> Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Tue Aug  6 22:45:33 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain
References: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <20020806224742.K5338@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <3D50A147.38942BB8@nkras.dsl.visi.com>

"Matthew S. Hallacy" wrote:

> On Tue, Aug 06, 2002 at 10:21:18PM -0500, Neal wrote:
>
> > It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in
> > calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational
> > fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e.
> > Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and
> > electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would <not> rule out the
> > effects of these conditions.
> >
>
> I never had problems with rain even on the 20-something mile links, snow
> wasn't a problem either. Fog, now that caused problems =) Not saying it
> isn't possible, but the biggest concern was the wind from the storm tearing
> apart the zip ties holding the antennas up =)

It all depends on the length of the circuit, transmit power, receiver sensitivity,
obstructions, etc. If your link was a generally clear radio line of sight, then
all else being equal, it would've talked. Fog appears to be opague at 2.4 Ghz.
That's going to be a problem. Parabolics will have a definite advantage over yagis
and corner reflectors, IMHO.

> The links should be setup so that a bird taking a dump on the
> feed horn doesn't cause problems..

Loss(guano)= -10db. :-)

There's still that loss between the local AP and the laptop. Even with a mobile
antenna gain of 5db, coffee tables make <lousy> ground planes. That 5db may just
bring the effective gain of the laptop antenna to unity.




From bryan at edgar.sector14.net  Tue Aug  6 23:26:42 2002
From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain
In-Reply-To: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> from "Neal" at Aug 06, 2002 10:21:18 PM
Message-ID: <200208070503.g7753Vl17778@twenty.sector14.net>

Neal wrote:
> 
> 
> It is my opinion that precipitation should still be considered in
> calculating propagation reliability for both major nodes (operational
> fixed, i.e. Tower to Walker) and street downlinks (AP to mobile, i.e.
> Walker to Loring Park laptop). With some of the downpours and
> electromagnetic disturbances in the Cities, I would <not> rule out the
> effects of these conditions.

I agree that it should be considered. I've seen the 2 gig studio to
transmitter links for some of the local TV stations and the 5 gig
satellite dish to IDS link for the local MDS company fade during hard
rains but we don't have the option of using  large fade margins like 40 
db. We just don't have that much transmitter power to play with and 24 
db is the largest common antenna size I've seen. 

With 30 mw transmitters and 24 db antennas a 10 mile link only has 
about 10 db of fade margin. Plus this isn't taking into consideration 
interference and the higher noise floor that we're going to be seeing 
as the band gets more crowded. I've heard enough people say that 10
mile links are doable that I think it should work. I think we'll just
have to get something up and running and see what the error rate ends up
being. If it ends up being a problem we can start looking for more
antenna gain or add amplifiers.



> 
> IIRC, I read a propaganda sheet from a manufacturer of ACSB (Amplitude
> Compandered Sideband) equipment that noted of the failure of an 800 Mhz
> (trunked?) system due to rainfall in Florida.
> 
> Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> 


-- 
Bryan Halvorson
bryan@edgar.sector14.net

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Wed Aug  7 01:16:04 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain
In-Reply-To: <200208070503.g7753Vl17778@twenty.sector14.net>; from bryan@edgar.sector14.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:03:31AM -0500
References: <3D509224.6A981553@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <200208070503.g7753Vl17778@twenty.sector14.net>
Message-ID: <20020807011656.N5338@techmonkeys.org>

On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:03:31AM -0500, Bryan Halvorson wrote:

> With 30 mw transmitters and 24 db antennas a 10 mile link only has 
> about 10 db of fade margin. Plus this isn't taking into consideration 
> interference and the higher noise floor that we're going to be seeing 
> as the band gets more crowded. I've heard enough people say that 10
> mile links are doable that I think it should work. I think we'll just
> have to get something up and running and see what the error rate ends up
> being. If it ends up being a problem we can start looking for more
> antenna gain or add amplifiers.

I wouldn't be confortable using 30mw units for this, most likely we'd be
using 100mw or 200mw radios.

> 
> 
> -- 
> Bryan Halvorson
> bryan@edgar.sector14.net
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Wed Aug  7 02:35:22 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] recieve sensitivity page
Message-ID: <20020807031308.O5338@techmonkeys.org>

A few people were looking for recieve sensitivity on the wireless cards,
here's a table:

http://www.freenetworks.org/moin/index.cgi/ReceiveSensitivity

don't consider it to be 100% accurate..

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From bryan at edgar.sector14.net  Wed Aug  7 02:52:34 2002
From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Microwave propagation and rain
In-Reply-To: <20020807011656.N5338@techmonkeys.org> from "Matthew S. Hallacy" at Aug 07, 2002 01:16:56 AM
Message-ID: <200208070837.g778bTx18623@twenty.sector14.net>

Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 12:03:31AM -0500, Bryan Halvorson wrote:
> 
> > With 30 mw transmitters and 24 db antennas a 10 mile link only has 
> > about 10 db of fade margin. Plus this isn't taking into consideration 
> > interference and the higher noise floor that we're going to be seeing 
> > as the band gets more crowded. I've heard enough people say that 10
> > mile links are doable that I think it should work. I think we'll just
> > have to get something up and running and see what the error rate ends up
> > being. If it ends up being a problem we can start looking for more
> > antenna gain or add amplifiers.
> 
> I wouldn't be confortable using 30mw units for this, most likely we'd be
> using 100mw or 200mw radios.

Going from 30 mw to 100 mw isn't really that big of a change. It's only
a 5 db increase on power. Going from 30 to 200 mw is 8 db. If possible 
it's usually better to increase the antenna gain or decrease the 
feedline loss. Both of these add to both the transmit and receive 
signal level and narrowing the antenna pattern with a higher gain 
antenna can also decrease interference.

I'm not trying to say that increasing the transmitter power is the wrong
answer, just that you need to look at the whole transmitter and antenna
system to see where changes will be the most effective. With the small
signal levels we're forced to work with here every db of signal is
important.

-- 
Bryan Halvorson
bryan@edgar.sector14.net

From dante at plethora.net  Wed Aug  7 09:34:25 2002
From: dante at plethora.net (Dan Taylor)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: list server timewarp - was (Re: [TCWUG] Richochet boxes?)
In-Reply-To: <20020807020933.GC32209@Geeks.ORG>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.10208070909380.15603-100000@herd.plethora.net>

On Tue, 6 Aug 2002, Mike Horwath wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 04, 2002 at 08:01:46PM -0500, steve ulrich wrote:
> > not to look a gift horse in the mouth, but i've been running into
> > problems with the mail server for this list.  this message and
> > another batch of messages from the tclug mailing from 7/24 made it
> > into my mailbox this AM.  i lobbed a message to postmaster@tcwug.org
> > a few days back and haven't received any response.  is all well with
> > the server?
> 
> I have offered hardware and colocation for the list as well :(
> 
I can't think of a better hosting site for it.

-- 
Daniel Taylor


From austad at marketwatch.com  Wed Aug  7 09:37:31 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus?
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

A few companies out there make "Passive Repeater" antennas, where you put
the antenna outside your building connected to one inside, an it relay's
cellular signals in and out for places with bad  reception.

How would I build one of these?  I bought one which was supposed to work
with GSM 1900, and it doesn't do a damn thing.  As far as I can tell, it's
an antenna mounted to a cheap plastic base and that's it.  Other ones I've
seen have a metal pad on the base and you stick one on each side of a
window, but mine doesn't have this.  Maybe that's why it was so cheap.

Jay

From cncole at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  7 10:11:21 2002
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus?
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <000701c23e2b$344f6710$9394fea9@HPZT>

I think you are describing a thing sold to boost signal in/out of cars.
Those I've seen use capacitive coupling to the inside, which has a dipole
(two wires inline with the plastic in the middle.. about 12" tip-to-tip for
the inside).  You may have one where the inside antenna wires are lost or
just not inserted yet.

Anybody got the antenna formulae (yagi, dipole, patch, etc) for 1900-2500
Mhz range that has "end effects" and propagation velocity compensated?

---
Chuck


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> Behalf Of Austad, Jay
> Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:13 AM
> To: 'tcwug-list@tcwug.org'
> Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus?
>
>
> A few companies out there make "Passive Repeater" antennas,
> where you put
> the antenna outside your building connected to one inside, an
> it relay's
> cellular signals in and out for places with bad  reception.
>
> How would I build one of these?  I bought one which was
> supposed to work
> with GSM 1900, and it doesn't do a damn thing.  As far as I
> can tell, it's
> an antenna mounted to a cheap plastic base and that's it.
> Other ones I've
> seen have a metal pad on the base and you stick one on each side of a
> window, but mine doesn't have this.  Maybe that's why it was so cheap.
>
> Jay
> _______________________________________________



From bryan at edgar.sector14.net  Wed Aug  7 15:34:40 2002
From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus?
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> from "Austad, Jay" at Aug 07, 2002 10:13:20 AM
Message-ID: <200208072100.g77L0Hv20292@twenty.sector14.net>

Austad, Jay wrote:
> 
> A few companies out there make "Passive Repeater" antennas, where you put
> the antenna outside your building connected to one inside, an it relay's
> cellular signals in and out for places with bad  reception.
> 
> How would I build one of these?  I bought one which was supposed to work
> with GSM 1900, and it doesn't do a damn thing.  As far as I can tell, it's
> an antenna mounted to a cheap plastic base and that's it.  Other ones I've
> seen have a metal pad on the base and you stick one on each side of a
> window, but mine doesn't have this.  Maybe that's why it was so cheap.

All a passive repeater really is is two antennas that are connected
together. They tend to work best when you have a situation where you
have a fairly strong signal and then have a nearby area where the signal
is blocked for some reason. You put up an antenna where it can catch the
strong signal and connect it via coax to another antenna that can
resend the signal into the blocked area.

One example of this is the big flat panels mounted at an angle on the 
smoke stacks at the power plants around town. They have microwave dishs 
on the ground pointed at the panels to bounce signals off of them.



-- 
Bryan Halvorson
bryan@edgar.sector14.net

From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Wed Aug  7 18:13:26 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:27 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
Message-ID: <3D51B30E.59135692@nkras.dsl.visi.com>

Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum,
including:

1. Geographic coordinates;
2. Street address; and
3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna
attachment).

I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above
information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-)

I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first,
since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial

path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information
between the two sites.

Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com




From andyw at pobox.com  Wed Aug  7 21:36:03 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] antenna gurus?
In-Reply-To: <200208072100.g77L0Hv20292@twenty.sector14.net>; from bryan@edgar.sector14.net on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 04:00:16PM -0500
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA008888323@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208072100.g77L0Hv20292@twenty.sector14.net>
Message-ID: <20020807222446.A6023@florence.linkmargin.com>

Bryan Halvorson wrote:
> [...]
> All a passive repeater really is is two antennas that are connected
> together. They tend to work best when you have a situation where you
> have a fairly strong signal and then have a nearby area where the signal
> is blocked for some reason. You put up an antenna where it can catch the
> strong signal and connect it via coax to another antenna that can
> resend the signal into the blocked area.

Attached is a photo of one such installation on top of one of the
new target buildings that got in the way of some microwave link
heading out west from the WCCO studios downtown. The downtilted
(left) antenna points toward the studio, the right antenna points
out to the West.

I've meant to email WCCO's engineers to find out the story before
I posted the picture here, but I never got around to it.

> One example of this is the big flat panels mounted at an angle on the 
> smoke stacks at the power plants around town. They have microwave dishs 
> on the ground pointed at the panels to bounce signals off of them.

Those are planar reflectors, and actually realise gain - I think
it's a stretch to call them passive repeaters; though they are
undeniably passive & do repeat things.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634
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From sulrich at botwerks.org  Wed Aug  7 22:47:41 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] raffle entry ...
Message-ID: <20020807233223.A16928@botwerks.org>


all-

our submission for the mac os x drawing with oreilly and associates in
mr. matthew genelin. 

best of luck to mr. genelin in the final drawing for the mac os x
conference.

for those of you interested in the logistics of picking the winner, i
grepped my tcwug mailbox for from: entries from the past few months 


the output was then munged as follows...

egrep -ih '^from: ' * > ~/foo
grep -v sulrich foo > bar ; mv bar foo
perl -pi.bak -e 's/from: //' foo
perl -pi.bak -e 's/\"//g' foo
perl -pi.bak -e 'tr/A-Z/a-z/' foo
sort foo | uniq > bar ; mv bar foo
./rand-pick.pl foo

rand-pick.pl is attached for those of you curious as to the technique
used to select a random name.

i realize that this doesn't remove all duplicates and would tend to
reward those that post from a variety of addresses but i figure what
the heck reward those folks that post frequently with slightly better
odds. 



-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC
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From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Wed Aug  7 22:48:08 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
In-Reply-To: <3D51B30E.59135692@nkras.dsl.visi.com>; from nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com on Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500
References: <3D51B30E.59135692@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org>

On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote:
> 
> Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum,
> including:
> 
> 1. Geographic coordinates;

      44.9690001 -93.288544


> 2. Street address; and

      Walker Art Center
      Vineland Place
      Minneapolis, MN 55403

> 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna
> attachment).

Can't find it, you might try calling them.

> 
> I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above
> information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-)
> 
> I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first,
> since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial
> 
> path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information
> between the two sites.
> 
> Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From nryberg at mendota-bridge.com  Thu Aug  8 08:17:25 2002
From: nryberg at mendota-bridge.com (Nick Ryberg)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
In-Reply-To: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <FBELJGAEIGIGEIINALPLOEDJCAAA.nryberg@mendota-bridge.com>

Are you folks just looking at connecting the two?  The Walker is at the base
of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at
Franklin.  Wouldn't something up there work better?  or is the Walker
'available'?

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
Behalf Of Matthew S. Hallacy
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:41 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Site information


On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote:
>
> Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum,
> including:
>
> 1. Geographic coordinates;

      44.9690001 -93.288544


> 2. Street address; and

      Walker Art Center
      Vineland Place
      Minneapolis, MN 55403

> 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna
> attachment).

Can't find it, you might try calling them.

>
> I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above
> information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-)
>
> I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first,
> since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial
>
> path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information
> between the two sites.
>
> Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com

--
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From andyw at pobox.com  Thu Aug  8 09:57:57 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
In-Reply-To: <FBELJGAEIGIGEIINALPLOEDJCAAA.nryberg@mendota-bridge.com>; from nryberg@mendota-bridge.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 08:56:29AM -0500
References: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org> <FBELJGAEIGIGEIINALPLOEDJCAAA.nryberg@mendota-bridge.com>
Message-ID: <20020808092708.A7391@florence.linkmargin.com>

Nick Ryberg wrote:
> Are you folks just looking at connecting the two?  The Walker is at the base
> of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at
> Franklin.  Wouldn't something up there work better?  or is the Walker

I was thinking the same thing. What about the community and
technical college - that sounds like fertile ground to me.

http://www.mctc.mnscu.edu/indexMain.htm
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From nryberg at mendota-bridge.com  Thu Aug  8 09:58:06 2002
From: nryberg at mendota-bridge.com (Nick Ryberg)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
In-Reply-To: <FBELJGAEIGIGEIINALPLOEDJCAAA.nryberg@mendota-bridge.com>
Message-ID: <FBELJGAEIGIGEIINALPLEEDKCAAA.nryberg@mendota-bridge.com>

Just as an FYI, www.topozone.com provides maps of areas, and once you puzzle
out the user interface, you can get a moderately good picture of an area.
For the Walker, see:
http://www.topozone.com/map.asp?z=15&n=4979309&e=477175&s=25&size=m

- Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
Behalf Of Nick Ryberg
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 8:56 AM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Site information


Are you folks just looking at connecting the two?  The Walker is at the base
of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at
Franklin.  Wouldn't something up there work better?  or is the Walker
'available'?

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
Behalf Of Matthew S. Hallacy
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 11:41 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Site information


On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote:
>
> Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum,
> including:
>
> 1. Geographic coordinates;

      44.9690001 -93.288544


> 2. Street address; and

      Walker Art Center
      Vineland Place
      Minneapolis, MN 55403

> 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna
> attachment).

Can't find it, you might try calling them.

>
> I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above
> information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-)
>
> I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first,
> since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial
>
> path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information
> between the two sites.
>
> Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com

--
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From benmgroup at earthlink.net  Thu Aug  8 10:00:07 2002
From: benmgroup at earthlink.net (Ben Nelson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
In-Reply-To: <20020807234037.A24439@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <B977ECD4.4279%benmgroup@earthlink.net>

I've come to this thread late, so excuse me if this is redundant, but have
you contacted the New Media department at the Walker? They may be interested
in participating.

Check out: http://www.walkerart.org/generalinfo/contactframe.html

I have done some work with them in the past, and wouldn't mind contacting
them to explain the project. Contact me off list if that would help.

Ben

> From: "Matthew S. Hallacy" <poptix@techmonkeys.org>
> Reply-To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 23:40:37 -0500
> To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Site information
> 
> On Wed, Aug 07, 2002 at 06:54:06PM -0500, Neal wrote:
>> 
>> Does anyone have site information for the Tower and Walker Arts Museum,
>> including:
>> 
>> 1. Geographic coordinates;
> 
>     44.9690001 -93.288544
> 
> 
>> 2. Street address; and
> 
>     Walker Art Center
>     Vineland Place
>     Minneapolis, MN 55403
> 
>> 3. Building height in feet (ground to roof, or at point of antenna
>> attachment).
> 
> Can't find it, you might try calling them.
> 
>> 
>> I'll start calculating propagation estimates as soon as I get the above
>> information, topo maps, and batteries for my HP25C. :-)
>> 
>> I'll concentrate my estimates on the operational fixed sites first,
>> since that will supply the backbone for all other APs. After the initial
>> 
>> path plot, I'll have to gather actual path obstruction information
>> between the two sites.
>> 
>> Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com
> 
> -- 
> Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
> http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
> Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From sulrich at botwerks.org  Thu Aug  8 12:21:02 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002)
Message-ID: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org>

all-


here are the notes from the meeting to the best of my recollection,
errors and omissions are quite possible and if i did miss something or
get something wrong (my apologies) please let me know and update the
group. 

points of administravia 
-----------------------

 - prior to the meeting i'd sent out some newsletters from oreilly and
 associates.  of note was a drawing, to be entered into a final
 drawing for a pass to the mac os x conference in santa clara sometime
 in september.

 hats were not readily available and we weren't in a position to write
 names on slips of paper for a drawing out of another recepticle.  i
 offered to cull a list of names from the postings and use a program
 to slurp a random name from the listing.  using this as the
 submission.  lacking any thoughts otherwise i opted to go this route.

 note: as of this writing our candidate submittee is matthew genelin.

 - list server discussion - there was some brief discussion regarding
 the current status of the mailing list server and the duress that it
 appears to be under.  some suggestions to improve the performance of
 the list server were made and a brief update on the status of the
 server was given by carl wilhelm soderstrom.  
 
 note: as of this writing there has been some conversation regarding
 the status of the server and implementing some performance enhancing
 tweaks to the operation of the lists.  confirmation of whether or not
 these tweaks would be utilized has not been achieved but the issue
 can be addressed as necessary.

new items
---------

 1 - ben kochie and matthew genelin from the university of minnesota
 have been researching the options available to the group utilizing
 moos tower at the university of minnesota.  the u of m's ham club is
 shrinking in numbers - graduating away and there is a fair amount of
 synergy between tcwug and the u amateur radio group. 
 
 this set off a considerable amount of discussion regarding the use of
 the potential moos tower node to build out to other locations in a
 point to point fashion.  there are several other locations which may
 be candidates for connections to this node location.  
  
 installation of the moos tower node will require doing some tests to
 determine the feasibility and impact of doing such an installation. a
 study to determine the range and locations accessible to the moos
 tower location will be required as well.  this will help to determine
 the optimum antenna type for the location as well as determine
 potential candidate locations.  (see todos at the bottom of these
 notes)
 
 additionally, there was some discussion regarding adding wireless
 connectivity to the loring area and the establishment of ptp links
 between some of the south minneapolis nodes.

 2 - the moos tower discussion sparked a lively discussion regarding
 the types of network buildouts that are possible and where we were
 with the hotspot vs.  overlay debate.  
 
 if i might glibly summarize ... the discussion is pretty much moot.
 there's a tremendous amount of interest in overlay in much the same
 fashion as seattle wireless and personaltelco.  however, the two
 models are very complimentary.  additionally, the group will want to
 work to help people setup  hotspots and to augment connectivity to
 accessible hotspots via the overlay network. this sparked a
 discussion of several different outreach type programs that the group
 would want to support.  those discussed include: 

    (in the spirit of the installfests i've "fested" all of these)
  - securefest - a primer on basic setup and configuration of WEP on
  common acess points.
  
  - firewallfest - a primer for the setup and configuration of basic
  firewalls for home networks and wireless access points.

  - rebelfest - a primer on how to engage in civil disobedience using
  tunneling protocols to an access concentrator to obviate AUPs.

 
 3 - carl brought up the use of some project tracking software to log
 the activity that's being given to the different projects and let
 people know what needs to be done and where help would be needed.


 4 - speakers for the next meetings.  there's an interest in having
 some more formalized discussions regarding widely varied topics of
 relevance to wireless technology.  
 
 note: as of this writing i've been working with various individuals
 to come up with a range of topics for discussion at the next few
 meetings, ranging from wardriving primers, to radio basics and
 geographic positioning tools.  i'll be working to get a list of these
 sessions put together.  if folks are really interested in some of
 these topics we can see about holding some class type sessions
 independently of our usual monthly meetings.

 5 - usernames for maps.tcwug.org - matthew hallacy has reminded us
 to please contact him to get your authentication squared away for
 managing your node entries on the maps.tcwug.org server.  this will
 enable you to control the status of your node w/i the database and
 limit the visibility of information you're not cool with sharing. 


 -------------------------------------------------------------------
 - misc. items referenced during the course of the meeting which   -
 - could very well turn into field trips / projects for interested -
 - parties or are just neat.                                       -
 -------------------------------------------------------------------
   
 1 - a field trip to moos tower to determine physical position and to
 engage in a study of the coverage that can be achieved by placing a
 node on moos tower.

 2 - project management software (bugzilla / jitterbug / twig) 

 3 - newbie documentation - creation of recommended hardware lists as
 tested and approved by local members. how-tos for some of the hotspot
 setup elements

 4 - some notes from curt at the meeting regarding useful tools for
 mapping and understanding what's going on from a regulatory
 perspective.

fcc part 15.247                                                                
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/get-cfr.cgi?TITLE=47&PART=15&SECTION=247&YEAR=2001&TYPE=TEXT

 - radio mobile deluxe - http://www.cplus.org/rmw/english1.html 
 - global mapper - http://www.globalmapper.com
 - ydi page - http://www.ydi.com/calc.php                                                     
 curt has also graciously offered to assist with coverage plots and
 path studies for the group as time permits.

 5 - authentication and sharing - for folks that are interested in
 setting up hotspots creation of an authentication infrastructure
 would go a long ways towards helping folks from a cooperative
 perspective. 


-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From andyw at pobox.com  Thu Aug  8 15:14:53 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002)
In-Reply-To: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 12:54:55PM -0500
References: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org>
Message-ID: <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com>

steve ulrich wrote:
> [...]
>  1 - ben kochie and matthew genelin from the university of minnesota
>  have been researching the options available to the group utilizing
>  moos tower at the university of minnesota.  the u of m's ham club is
>  [...]
>  installation of the moos tower node will require doing some tests to
>  determine the feasibility and impact of doing such an installation. a
>  study to determine the range and locations accessible to the moos
>  tower location will be required as well.  this will help to determine

I'm sorry I missed the meeting.

I've installed a data repeater on top of moos tower. I am very
familiar with the location. The radio shack is a considerable distance
from the antenna location sites. Unless we want to flush lots of dB
and $ on feedline, we will need to plan for weatherproof radios, with
remote (low voltage) power remotely supplied. It is a good RF location,
the coverage of the data repeater I mentioned above was excellent.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Thu Aug  8 15:33:10 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002)
In-Reply-To: <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com>
References: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org> <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org>

when last we saw our hero (Thursday, Aug 08, 2002), 
 Andy Warner was madly tapping out:
> steve ulrich wrote:
> > [...]
> >  1 - ben kochie and matthew genelin from the university of minnesota
> >  have been researching the options available to the group utilizing
> >  moos tower at the university of minnesota.  the u of m's ham club is
> >  [...]
> >  installation of the moos tower node will require doing some tests to
> >  determine the feasibility and impact of doing such an installation. a
> >  study to determine the range and locations accessible to the moos
> >  tower location will be required as well.  this will help to determine
> 
> I'm sorry I missed the meeting.


> I've installed a data repeater on top of moos tower. I am very
> familiar with the location. The radio shack is a considerable
> distance from the antenna location sites. Unless we want to flush
> lots of dB and $ on feedline, we will need to plan for weatherproof
> radios, with remote (low voltage) power remotely supplied. It is a
> good RF location, the coverage of the data repeater I mentioned
> above was excellent.

there was some discussion regarding this.  it would be nice to know if
we're within the bounds of PoE for this application. i'm doing some
research to see what APs we'd be able to use for this location that
would have low power req'ts whle providing us with some flexibility in
the network functionality side of things. 


-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From ben at nerp.net  Thu Aug  8 15:58:53 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002)
In-Reply-To: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208081631320.20075-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

actualy.. i was just up there this afternoon with matt (yay GPS)

here's the coord for the top:  (task 1 complete)

Moos Tower:
44.58'21.8"
93.13'53.2"
elev ~260m

Base appears to be 180m, street level.. if that helps

We discovered there is a nice little shack on the roof where we can feed
coax from.  and would not need a weatherproof enclosure.  just a small
wall mount rack cabinet or similar.  from there we can run coax cable to
antennas.  this should cut down the needed coax to 100 feet or less.

(the shack i'm talking about is beneath the datarepeater antenna)


- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, steve ulrich wrote:

> there was some discussion regarding this.  it would be nice to know if
> we're within the bounds of PoE for this application. i'm doing some
> research to see what APs we'd be able to use for this location that
> would have low power req'ts whle providing us with some flexibility in
> the network functionality side of things.
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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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From andyw at pobox.com  Thu Aug  8 16:22:18 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:28 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002)
In-Reply-To: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org>; from sulrich@botwerks.org on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:14:26PM -0500
References: <20020808175455.GA14660@botwerks.org> <20020808155307.A8428@florence.linkmargin.com> <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org>
Message-ID: <20020808165600.B8428@florence.linkmargin.com>

steve ulrich wrote:
> [...]
> there was some discussion regarding this.  it would be nice to know if
> we're within the bounds of PoE for this application. i'm doing some
> research to see what APs we'd be able to use for this location that
> would have low power req'ts whle providing us with some flexibility in
> the network functionality side of things. 

I believe that we're within PoE range. Certainly within range of
pulling an additional 18 gauge pair along with cat 5 if required.
If my memory isn't letting me down, I want to say we needed 180'
of heliax to get from the radio room to the antenna (mounted at
the SE corner of the cooling towers.) There are other locations
that would need more, but the usual range for PoE that I hear
bandied about is 300'
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From andyw at pobox.com  Thu Aug  8 16:27:08 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208081631320.20075-100000@chef.nerp.net>; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 04:36:22PM -0500
References: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208081631320.20075-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <20020808170411.C8428@florence.linkmargin.com>

Ben Kochie wrote:
> [...]
> We discovered there is a nice little shack on the roof where we can feed
> coax from.  and would not need a weatherproof enclosure.  just a small
> wall mount rack cabinet or similar.  from there we can run coax cable to
> antennas.  this should cut down the needed coax to 100 feet or less.

I think you might get into hot water using 110V there. It's most
definitely a damp location - might even qualify as wet. I'd
have to check the NEC, but I don't think that it's OK to use
the power outlets up there for a fixed installation. I'm not
even sure I'd want to use those outlets, without knowing where
they were getting their power from. There are huge motors on top
of the cooling towers, lots of nasty transients around.

There are a couple of TV cameras & microwave links up there
also (one at the top of the ladder up the evaporators) - where
do they get their power from ? We could follow that lead.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From bryan at edgar.sector14.net  Thu Aug  8 16:44:53 2002
From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
In-Reply-To: <FBELJGAEIGIGEIINALPLOEDJCAAA.nryberg@mendota-bridge.com> from "Nick Ryberg" at Aug 08, 2002 08:56:29 AM
Message-ID: <200208082226.g78MQfR24455@twenty.sector14.net>

Nick Ryberg wrote:
> 
> Are you folks just looking at connecting the two?  The Walker is at the base
> of the hill leading up Hennepin from the Basilica towards the peak at
> Franklin.  Wouldn't something up there work better?  or is the Walker
> 'available'?

I don't believe you could get a path between the Moos tower and the
Walker. Downtown Minneapolis is in the way.

I suggested the Walker because I believe they would be receptive to
setting up an access point to allow network access from the sculpture
gardens and Loring park. Looking at arial photographs I believe we could
get a path to VISI down Hennipin Ave from there as well. The building 
engineer is a friend of mine and will probably be helpful with getting 
us to talk to the right person to put the proposal to.

The Walker isn't a very tall building but I think that it'd be much
easier to get approval to put something on the roof than many other
buildings. If someone has a better suggestion I'm certainly willing to
look at it.




-- 
Bryan Halvorson
bryan@edgar.sector14.net

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Thu Aug  8 17:03:19 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] meeting notes (08062002)
In-Reply-To: <20020808170411.C8428@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 05:04:11PM -0500
References: <20020808211426.GB15228@botwerks.org> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208081631320.20075-100000@chef.nerp.net> <20020808170411.C8428@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <20020808174442.D24439@techmonkeys.org>

On Thu, Aug 08, 2002 at 05:04:11PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote:
> 
> I think you might get into hot water using 110V there. It's most
> definitely a damp location - might even qualify as wet. I'd
> have to check the NEC, but I don't think that it's OK to use
> the power outlets up there for a fixed installation. I'm not
> even sure I'd want to use those outlets, without knowing where
> they were getting their power from. There are huge motors on top
> of the cooling towers, lots of nasty transients around.

While Ben and I were up there we noticed that there is already
some directional 802.11/802.11b equipment up there, fortunately
it's directional. The area they're in isn't damp/wet, and the power
should be safe (and relatively clean).

> 
> There are a couple of TV cameras & microwave links up there
> also (one at the top of the ladder up the evaporators) - where
> do they get their power from ? We could follow that lead.

We'll have to see next time 'round.

> -- 
> andyw@pobox.com

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Thu Aug  8 17:21:21 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] WiFi hacker honeypot
In-Reply-To: <20020729132340.E3224@n0jcf.net>; from chrise@pobox.com on Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:23:40PM -0500
References: <20020729132340.E3224@n0jcf.net>
Message-ID: <20020729141921.B5338@techmonkeys.org>

On Mon, Jul 29, 2002 at 01:23:40PM -0500, Chris Elmquist wrote:
> This was on Slashdot today...
> 
> http://online.securityfocus.com/news/552
> 
> Wi Fi Honeypots a New Hacker Trap
> 
> War drivers beware, the next wireless network you tap might be part of an
> elaborate sting.
> By Kevin Poulsen, Jul 29 2002 1:00AM
> 
> Hackers searching for wireless access points in the nation's capital may soon
> war drive right into a trap. Last month researchers at the government
> contractor Science Applications International Corporation (SAIC) launched
> what might be the first organized wireless honeypot, designed to tempt
> unwary Wi Fi hackers and bandwidth borrowers and gather data on their
> techniques and tools of choice.
> [...]


This sounds great, from the article it sounds like he's merely trying to
monitor what people do with it (DoS, spam, or legitimate internet access
such as web surfing etc). The article claims that since he set it up 
June 15th, he's only had a single ping sweep of the network, and people
trying to surf the web.

I think this will go a long way towards getting rid of the '(c|h)acker'
stigma that seems to have leeched over to 'wardriving'. 

> 
> -- 
> Chris Elmquist   mailto:chrise@pobox.com   http://www.pobox.com/~chrise

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From joel at helgeson.com  Fri Aug  9 08:33:15 2002
From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
In-Reply-To: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net>
Message-ID: <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>

SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a
Cisco partner and have considerable experience. They're located in
Bloomington. 952-921-0303 www.symetriq.com

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On
Behalf Of Joe Robertson
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 12:00 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link

Thanks for all the replies.  Let me throw an addendum.  Does anyone have
any recommended local installers/VARs?

Thans again,

Joe

On Mon, Aug 05, 2002 at 09:57:28AM -0500, Joe Robertson wrote:

> I'm looking to interconnect two offices with very solid, direct LOS
that are about six blocks apart.  I'm looking at DS3 or 100Mbit speeds
and thought I'd throw the question to this group for ideas.
> 
> This project needs a cheap but reliable connection.  I'm currently
looking at some Tsunami 100Mbps bridges, but would love to hear other
suggestions.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From andyw at pobox.com  Fri Aug  9 09:04:11 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
In-Reply-To: <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>; from joel@helgeson.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:08:51AM -0500
References: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net> <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>
Message-ID: <20020809094028.D8428@florence.linkmargin.com>

Joel R. Helgeson wrote:
> SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a
> [...]

Any you work for ? .......

Disclosure is a good thing.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Fri Aug  9 13:36:13 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] [John.Pavelich@entrust.com: [KISMET] YDI amp/antenna deal]
Message-ID: <20020809141433.K24439@techmonkeys.org>

----- Forwarded message from John Pavelich <John.Pavelich@entrust.com> -----

Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 14:45:58 -0400 
From: John Pavelich <John.Pavelich@entrust.com>
To: wireless@kismetwireless.net
Subject: [KISMET] YDI amp/antenna deal
X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19)
Mailing-List: contact wireless-help@kismetwireless.net; run by ezmlm
Delivered-To: mailing list wireless@kismetwireless.net

In case anyone is interested in an amp/antenna here's a special I was just
told about.
Note...I have no affiliation with YDI, I just use their products and am on
their mailing list. 

FP18A - Amplified FP18A Ant, with DC Injector (no mounting flange), power
supply, and L-mounting bracket. (http://www.ydi.com/fp18a.asp) - 
$299

----- End forwarded message -----

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From andyw at pobox.com  Fri Aug  9 15:14:33 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
In-Reply-To: <20020809094028.D8428@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Fri, Aug 09, 2002 at 09:40:28AM -0500
References: <20020805170028.GA5893@bitstream.net> <000501c23fae$4a70c8c0$027dd8d8@SECURITY> <20020809094028.D8428@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <20020809155829.E8428@florence.linkmargin.com>

Andy Warner wrote:
> Joel R. Helgeson wrote:
> > SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a
> > [...]
> 
> Any you work for ? .......

s/Any/And/ (too used to typing andy)
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From joel at helgeson.com  Fri Aug  9 16:53:42 2002
From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link
In-Reply-To: <20020809155829.E8428@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <000101c23ff4$e09a3d90$027dd8d8@SECURITY>

I work for SymetriQ ;)
How do you think I know their a great company?
I/We do it all the time.

Joel
-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On
Behalf Of Andy Warner
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 3:58 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Short Range High Speed Link

Andy Warner wrote:
> Joel R. Helgeson wrote:
> > SymetriQ is a good company that installs wireless bridges. They're a
> > [...]
> 
> Any you work for ? .......

s/Any/And/ (too used to typing andy)
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From dieman at ringworld.org  Sun Aug 11 12:30:05 2002
From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
Message-ID: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout>

After being off the list for a while I decided to read the archives a
bit for this month.  I've read the thoughts about the network and I'm
pretty worried about this secnario:

ISP sets up VPN server on network.
ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG,
just makes a pretty map.
Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from
TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users.

I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've
come up with a bunch of blanks.  Most of them revolve on how to provide
open access to individuals while denying abusive access.  I think the
situation might be best worked out with the following:

Two access levels, Supporting and Freeloader:

Supporting pays money, perhaps yearly, perhaps monthly.  They get equal
access along with any other supporters and in theory the money requested
assists with network upgrades to meet that demand.  Some sort of QoS is
involved but is mostly non restrictive.  Perhaps some way to provide a
minimum amount to each user, but the excess is first come first serve to
supporters.

Freeloaders get essentially "Scavenger" access.  It's run-off excess
energy from Supporters, Network Founders, Major Network Sponsors, Admins
and the sort.  This way, the network can still be considered a public
service and potentially still a nonprofit (?) but just providing a
different level of service to those who pay.  Scavenger access is an
idea that's been used in internet2 land to apply to specific
organizations 'non-primary-mission' traffic.  More can be found here:
http://qbone.internet2.edu/qbss/

Supporters who decide to stop paying become Freeloaders.  No 'extra'
charges should be put on someone to make the conversion back and forth. 
Either category should require a method of identification by an Admin to
recieve a login.  Perhaps Freeloaders can be auth-free, but I'm worried
the abuse will get so bad it won't be worth it.  Perhaps let auth-free
users only get to specific resources and other auth-free users.

So, three levels of bits.  Supporting users 'mandatory bandwidth
allocation' bits, Supporting users 'extra bandwidth thats available'
bits, and the Freeloaders scavenger bits.

Of course, I have no experience implementing QBSS on anything yet.  I've
yet had a chance to break the closest cisco router I've got my grubby
hands enabled on.  And, I don't know what sort of QoS can be done on
Linux or *BSD to further these means.  This sort of proposal also
assumes that we are looking at an embedded platform with either host_ap
or the freebsd (i think) non-free orinoco ap driver.  I also assume that
a decently hard to avoid authentication protocol is used.

I wish I could have made it to the recent meeting, but ran into issues
where I couldn't make it. (colo box drive finally took a dive, spent a
few hours with a friend configuring a new machine from scratch and
putting in the most recent backup.  Luckily I was able to get the old
box to come up enough that I could rsync recent data to the new
machine.)

-- 
Scott Dier <dieman@ringworld.org> http://www.ringworld.org/


From sulrich at botwerks.org  Mon Aug 12 08:01:01 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] trying something different ... for the meetings
Message-ID: <20020812072919.B28266@botwerks.org>

all-

it would seem that there are some varied interests within the group
above and beyond the desire to build out a community wireless network.

in an effort to scratch these itches - i've taken the liberty of
trying something different. (and something that we discussed in our
meeting on tuesday) in addition to our usual banter regarding
locations, overlay vs. hotspot and such i'm working to get us a
"guest speaker"  - initially it's looking like these speakers will
come from amongst us.   we can take the first 45 minutes or so of the
meeting and focus on this topic in a more formal manner. 

to that end the first topic (09/03/2002) we'll be covering will be
wardriving for beginners.  this will be presented by our own matthew
hallacy.  this will be an overview of some of the more popular
wireless sniffing tools as well as some practical tips on getting your
own wireless sniffing configuration setup.

frankly, i've selected this topic because of its sex appeal.  it has
some geek interest and there are some very practical applications for
the use of such tools in corporate america today.  this is something
that we can publicize to other folks who might not necessarily have an
interest in our overlay vs. hotspot banter but would be interested in
this for their own networks and as a way to do something cool with
their cars. 

the second topic that i'm working to get us a speaker for is a radio
technology primer.  clearing up the confusion regarding power,
antennas and providing a basic introduction to the technologies
associated with RF networks.

more as it happens.  feedback regarding topics of interest would be
appreciated and i'll work what contacts i have (if you have contact
willing to cover some of these topics as well that's always
appreciated) to get us speakers.  



-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From sulrich at botwerks.org  Mon Aug 12 08:54:38 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout>
References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout>
Message-ID: <20020812084218.C28266@botwerks.org>

scott-

nice to have you back amongst us!  

i think that we're basically on the same page here, although i don't
know that we have the infrastructure to provide services on the level
you've described.   matt made some interesting comments which i
thought were particularly apropos for our group, struggling with the
whole AUP element as well as how to deal with freeloaders. 

i think that the consensus that the group has achieved thus far is:
where folks are interested in offering hotspot access, they can. 
we as a group can work to come up with an authentication scheme to
allow members acccess via whatever access points they can reach and
share and share alike. 

how the overlay network foots up with folks that have dedicated
internet access is a matter for further research.  

when last we saw our hero (Saturday, Aug 10, 2002), 
 Scott Dier was madly tapping out:
> After being off the list for a while I decided to read the archives a
> bit for this month.  I've read the thoughts about the network and I'm
> pretty worried about this secnario:
> 
> ISP sets up VPN server on network.
> ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG,
> just makes a pretty map.
> Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from
> TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users.
> 
> I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've
> come up with a bunch of blanks.  Most of them revolve on how to provide
> open access to individuals while denying abusive access.  I think the
> situation might be best worked out with the following:
> 
> Two access levels, Supporting and Freeloader:
> 
> Supporting pays money, perhaps yearly, perhaps monthly.  They get equal
> access along with any other supporters and in theory the money requested
> assists with network upgrades to meet that demand.  Some sort of QoS is
> involved but is mostly non restrictive.  Perhaps some way to provide a
> minimum amount to each user, but the excess is first come first serve to
> supporters.
> 
> Freeloaders get essentially "Scavenger" access.  It's run-off excess
> energy from Supporters, Network Founders, Major Network Sponsors, Admins
> and the sort.  This way, the network can still be considered a public
> service and potentially still a nonprofit (?) but just providing a
> different level of service to those who pay.  Scavenger access is an
> idea that's been used in internet2 land to apply to specific
> organizations 'non-primary-mission' traffic.  More can be found here:
> http://qbone.internet2.edu/qbss/

qbss - is essentially a fancy name put on DiffServ best effort
traffic.  i'd be all for this and we have the ability to do this on
router platforms that support marking and passing with different
priority traffic with DSCP codepoints.  like you i'm not sure what the
capabilities are for doing this under PC based router platforms.

there are some challenges associated with doing this.  all routers
within the routing domain must support DiffServ and the appropriate
per hop behaviours and the edge devices must know how to map a
particular user (based on IP address or .1p tag) to a particular class
of service.  

> Supporters who decide to stop paying become Freeloaders.  No 'extra'
> charges should be put on someone to make the conversion back and forth. 
> Either category should require a method of identification by an Admin to
> recieve a login.  Perhaps Freeloaders can be auth-free, but I'm worried
> the abuse will get so bad it won't be worth it.  Perhaps let auth-free
> users only get to specific resources and other auth-free users.
> 
> So, three levels of bits.  Supporting users 'mandatory bandwidth
> allocation' bits, Supporting users 'extra bandwidth thats available'
> bits, and the Freeloaders scavenger bits.
> 
> Of course, I have no experience implementing QBSS on anything yet.  I've
> yet had a chance to break the closest cisco router I've got my grubby
> hands enabled on.  And, I don't know what sort of QoS can be done on
> Linux or *BSD to further these means.  This sort of proposal also
> assumes that we are looking at an embedded platform with either host_ap
> or the freebsd (i think) non-free orinoco ap driver.  I also assume that
> a decently hard to avoid authentication protocol is used.

as an aside - freebsd and openbsd provide the ability to get the
queuing  functionality with altq (openbsd supports pf which i believe
supports marking).  the marking functionality i haven't fully
researched on either of these platforms.

> I wish I could have made it to the recent meeting, but ran into issues
> where I couldn't make it. (colo box drive finally took a dive, spent a
> few hours with a friend configuring a new machine from scratch and
> putting in the most recent backup.  Luckily I was able to get the old
> box to come up enough that I could rsync recent data to the new
> machine.)



-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From chrome at real-time.com  Mon Aug 12 10:02:23 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout>; from dieman@ringworld.org on Sat, Aug 10, 2002 at 11:07:24PM -0500
References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout>
Message-ID: <20020812095129.B22394@real-time.com>

> ISP sets up VPN server on network.
> ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG,
> just makes a pretty map.
> Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from
> TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users.
> 
> I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've
> come up with a bunch of blanks.  Most of them revolve on how to provide
> open access to individuals while denying abusive access.  

keep in mind that we probably don't have to worry about controlling access
for some time... we've still got a long way to go before having reliable and
halfway-widely-available access across the 'Cities. Only at that point does
it start to become a concern, I think.

Your points are valid tho, and well-taken. 

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Mon Aug 12 22:43:54 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout>
Message-ID: <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com>

Scott Dier wrote:

> After being off the list for a while I decided to read the archives a
> bit for this month.  I've read the thoughts about the network and I'm
> pretty worried about this secnario:
>
> ISP sets up VPN server on network.
> ISP offers pay-for-access model to anyone, but doesn't mention TCWUG,
> just makes a pretty map.
> Users have no knowledge of TCWUG and what the network is coming from
> TCWUG gets -$0- and falls fast into disarray with glut of new users.
>
> I've also done some thinking on how to mitigate that situation and I've
> come up with a bunch of blanks.  Most of them revolve on how to provide
> open access to individuals while denying abusive access.  I think the
> situation might be best worked out with the following:
>
> Two access levels, Supporting and Freeloader:

<snip>

After the last meeting, it struck me that others may have dollar signs before
their eyes, and as with linux, will gladly build upon the work - the donated,
<free> work of others, becoming the Redhat of Twin Cities wireless. If the cloud
is successful, then commercial interests, whether individual or corporate, or a
combination of the two, will use the network. This fact will transform the network
into a de facto commercial entity. That incurs liability.

Once any thing of value is exchanged, this project will be a commercial
enterprise. This group really should consider the ramifications of this: once
commercial traffic is allowed on the cloud, and such traffic is transferred to the
Internet, this group will become a wireless backbone supplier, and anyone running
an AP, an ISP.

Considering the above, I strongly suggest, at the very least, incorporating as a
non-profit. That way, any work that is done can only be used for the TCWUG
wireless network, and any work: siting, propagation estimates, development methods
and data, antenna configurations, et. al. would be proprietary, and could only be
used if TCWUG, as a non-profit corporate entity, gives permission, in return for a
fee, for the use of such facilities or proprietary methods and data. The moneys
would be re-invested into TCWUG. Call it a cooperative.

I am <not> going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in
urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for <their>
enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long
as the work is protected.

Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com


From kritchie at kritchie.org  Tue Aug 13 16:43:22 2002
From: kritchie at kritchie.org (Kent Ritchie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Site information
In-Reply-To: <200208082226.g78MQfR24455@twenty.sector14.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208131434290.11719-100000@boson.kritchie.org>

On Thu, 8 Aug 2002, Bryan Halvorson wrote:

> I don't believe you could get a path between the Moos tower and the
> Walker. Downtown Minneapolis is in the way.

Well, I could see 2829 University Ave SE from 1800 Hennepin Ave.  The 
former is the building occupied by Onvoy (9 story ugly white office 
building) and the latter is an 18 story assisted living residence called 
The Kenwood.  The Kenwood is at the top of "the hill" and has a commanding 
view of Uptown, the West and South.  It's a prime location.  Don't know 
what the reference to Moos tower is about, but it's generally in the same 
direction from 1800 Hennepin as 2829 University Ave SE is.

Sorry this info is a little late... been busy with other stuff - it is 
summer afterall :)

-Kent



From sulrich at botwerks.org  Tue Aug 13 17:24:29 2002
From: sulrich at botwerks.org (steve ulrich)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] low cost antennas
Message-ID: <20020812213644.GA60230@botwerks.org>


this link just made its way across the nocat mailing list.  they have
kits that you can assemble and they also sell used gear.  cheap.

http://www.aerialix.com/

-- 
steve ulrich                       sulrich@botwerks.org
PGP: 8D0B 0EE9 E700 A6CF ABA7  AE5F 4FD4 07C9 133B FAFC

From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Aug 14 11:29:42 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:29 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com>; from nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com on Mon, Aug 12, 2002 at 06:16:04PM -0500
References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <20020814112329.J31189@real-time.com>

> I am <not> going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in
> urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for <their>
> enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long
> as the work is protected.

I heartily agree with this. I've got no problem building a network just for
the geek value of it; I do however have a problem with people taking what
we've done, and putting $$$ in their pocket, with no returns to us.

I think a commercial operation of any sort, is likely to attract the wrong
sorts of people (both users and investors/managers/hangers-on); and has a
good chance of ruining the culture of this community. 
then again, I think changing culture is bound to happen to any community
eventually, as part of its natural evolution (if it doesn't do that, it
stagnates and dies). so let's just be aware of it; and keep an eye out for
the future of this friendly community of geeks. :)

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From leaf at real-time.com  Wed Aug 14 13:36:02 2002
From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: [tcwug-web] Addition/Correction to previous memo re Moos Tower
In-Reply-To: <001001c24310$f59add20$0200000a@iaxs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208131654430.24880-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

I've checked the links on the Mailing List page, and they work for me.

Anyone else have a problem with the links on this page?

Are you using Internet Explorer? Is it version 6.x?
Then it's likely a problem with your browser security settings and/or the
self signed cert.  Make the necessary adjustments in your privacy or
security options and try again.


- Rick Tanner
leaf@real-time.com

On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Becky Lynn Pihl wrote:

> PLEASE NOTE:  My PC is dead from multiple viruses/viri (sp?).  As a result,
> send your response to leif@pihl.us, but also please send a "CC" (copy) to my
> wife's machine, at becky@pihl.us.
> ========================================
>
<snip>
>
> p.s.:  At your web page http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/index.html, your
> link for "TCWUG General Mailing List" seems to be broken.
>




From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Aug 14 14:11:29 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: [tcwug-web] Addition/Correction to previous memo re Moos Tower
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208131654430.24880-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>; from leaf@real-time.com on Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 12:38:33PM -0500
References: <001001c24310$f59add20$0200000a@iaxs.net> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208131654430.24880-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020814135305.N31189@real-time.com>

On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 12:38:33PM -0500, Rick Tanner wrote:
> Anyone else have a problem with the links on this page?

> > p.s.:  At your web page http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/index.html, your
> > link for "TCWUG General Mailing List" seems to be broken.

works fine for me, other than popping up the message about an untrusted cert
(which is because it's self-signed, rather than bought from Veri$ign).

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Wed Aug 14 17:36:36 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
References: <1029038846.10067.48.camel@runabout> <3D5841AF.DF446DE@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <20020814112329.J31189@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com>


Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:

> > I am <not> going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in
> > urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for <their>
> > enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long
> > as the work is protected.
>
> I heartily agree with this. I've got no problem building a network just for
> the geek value of it; I do however have a problem with people taking what
> we've done, and putting $$$ in their pocket, with no returns to us.
>
> I think a commercial operation of any sort, is likely to attract the wrong
> sorts of people (both users and investors/managers/hangers-on); and has a
> good chance of ruining the culture of this community.
> then again, I think changing culture is bound to happen to any community
> eventually, as part of its natural evolution (if it doesn't do that, it
> stagnates and dies). so let's just be aware of it; and keep an eye out for
> the future of this friendly community of geeks. :)

Well, here we go:

Non-profit corporations: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/nc.html
Forms: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/forms.html

Non-profit or Cooperative?

Neal: nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com



From dd at davedash.com  Wed Aug 14 18:45:30 2002
From: dd at davedash.com (Devesh Dash)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <24E65896-AFD8-11D6-B95B-00039397F470@davedash.com>

What are we limited by as a non-profit?

I suppose if any profit we do make gets reinvested into maintenance 
there's no net-profit, but what about a co-op... what can we do as a 
co-op?

-dd

On Wednesday, August 14, 2002, at 05:24  PM, Neal wrote:

> Well, here we go:
>
> Non-profit corporations: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/nc.html
> Forms: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/forms.html
>
> Non-profit or Cooperative?
--
Spindrop Technologies
http://www.spindroptech.com/


From becky at pihl.us  Wed Aug 14 22:08:24 2002
From: becky at pihl.us (Becky Lynn Pihl)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] problems with accessing discussion page, plus other Qs...
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208131654430.24880-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c24403$374ed8a0$0200000a@iaxs.net>

RT:

My wife's PC uses Internet Explorer, Version: 6.0.2600.0000IC.
My PC has a similar version of Explorer.

My wife has had a Norton Internet Security package (2002?) installed on her
PC for quite some time; I only just installed it on mine.  However, Norton
has not interfered with our viewing any other page (that I know of), so I
don't see that being a cause of not being able to access
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list.

Any other ideas re my accessing the discussion page?

-----

While I've got your attention, could you tell me-
Who's been the one person, or several people who are investingating having a
802.11b repeater on top of Moos tower?
Did my info help any?
What's the status of that?

In any case, I hope to make the September meeting and meet some of you in
person then and there.

As I stated earlier, I'd appreciate an opportunity to talk to one of you
(via phone: 651-774-7445) about the ins and outs of establishing a station
in my neighborhood.  Refer to "tomah" as a contact on the node map.


Thanks,


leif@pihl.us






----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Tanner" <leaf@real-time.com>
To: "Becky Lynn Pihl" <becky@pihl.us>
Cc: <leif@pihl.us>; <tcwug-list@lists.real-time.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [tcwug-web] Addition/Correction to previous memo re Moos Tower


>
> I've checked the links on the Mailing List page, and they work for me.
>
> Anyone else have a problem with the links on this page?
>
> Are you using Internet Explorer? Is it version 6.x?
> Then it's likely a problem with your browser security settings and/or the
> self signed cert.  Make the necessary adjustments in your privacy or
> security options and try again.
>
>
> - Rick Tanner
> leaf@real-time.com
>
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2002, Becky Lynn Pihl wrote:
>
> > PLEASE NOTE:  My PC is dead from multiple viruses/viri (sp?).  As a
result,
> > send your response to leif@pihl.us, but also please send a "CC" (copy)
to my
> > wife's machine, at becky@pihl.us.
> > ========================================
> >
> <snip>
> >
> > p.s.:  At your web page http://www.tcwug.org/mailinglists/index.html,
your
> > link for "TCWUG General Mailing List" seems to be broken.
> >
>
>
>
>



From leaf at real-time.com  Wed Aug 14 23:18:03 2002
From: leaf at real-time.com (Rick Tanner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] problems with accessing discussion page, plus other
 Qs...
In-Reply-To: <000b01c24403$374ed8a0$0200000a@iaxs.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33L2.0208142248110.30337-100000@mage.real-time.com>

The security settings I was referring to are the ones found within IE.

I was able to view the page with the same version if IE with the
security settings (Tools -> Internet Options -> Security) set to High.
So, that doesn't appear to be the problem.

The only other thing I can think of is the Advanced security settings.
(Tools -> Intenet Options -> Advanced) Do you have "Use SSL 2.0" and "Use
SSL 3.0" enabled?  Maybe try restoring them, the advanced options, to the
defaults.. ?

- Rick Tanner

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Becky Lynn Pihl wrote:

> RT:
>
> My wife's PC uses Internet Explorer, Version: 6.0.2600.0000IC.
> My PC has a similar version of Explorer.
>
> My wife has had a Norton Internet Security package (2002?) installed on her
> PC for quite some time; I only just installed it on mine.  However, Norton
> has not interfered with our viewing any other page (that I know of), so I
> don't see that being a cause of not being able to access
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list.
>
> Any other ideas re my accessing the discussion page?
>
<snip>


From dante+tcwug at plethora.net  Wed Aug 14 23:44:57 2002
From: dante+tcwug at plethora.net (Daniel Taylor)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208142324170.1320-100000@cu.mol.plethora.net>

On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Neal wrote:

>
>
> Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>
> > > I am <not> going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in
> > > urban radio propagation if that knowledge will be exploited for <their>
> > > enrichment, but I will gladly donate it as a volunteer for a non-profit, as long
> > > as the work is protected.
> >
> > I heartily agree with this. I've got no problem building a network just for
> > the geek value of it; I do however have a problem with people taking what
> > we've done, and putting $$$ in their pocket, with no returns to us.
> >
> > I think a commercial operation of any sort, is likely to attract the wrong
> > sorts of people (both users and investors/managers/hangers-on); and has a
> > good chance of ruining the culture of this community.
> > then again, I think changing culture is bound to happen to any community
> > eventually, as part of its natural evolution (if it doesn't do that, it
> > stagnates and dies). so let's just be aware of it; and keep an eye out for
> > the future of this friendly community of geeks. :)
>
> Well, here we go:
>
> Non-profit corporations: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/nc.html
> Forms: http://www.sos.state.mn.us/business/forms.html
>
> Non-profit or Cooperative?
>
I still favor co-op. It seems the correct model for the project.

-- 
Daniel Taylor
dante@plethora.net


From jima at beer.tclug.org  Thu Aug 15 11:26:06 2002
From: jima at beer.tclug.org (Jima)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Amusing snippet
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208151110350.1161-100000@poink.eleetomatic.com>

 Oddly, my boss forwarded me this:

http://boingboing.net/2002_08_01_archive.html#85343191

     Jima


From spencer at mail.tcopensys.com  Thu Aug 15 11:30:21 2002
From: spencer at mail.tcopensys.com (spencer@mail.tcopensys.com)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208142324170.1320-100000@cu.mol.plethora.net>
References: <3D5AD885.6F06C9CF@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208142324170.1320-100000@cu.mol.plethora.net>
Message-ID: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com>

On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 11:25:19PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
>On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Neal wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
>>
>> > > I am <not> going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in
>>
<snip>
>I still favor co-op. It seems the correct model for the project.
hear here.

Although I may very well be wrong, becoming a legitamite
co-op may be just as difficult and time consuming as becoming a NPO.  I
would like to see the group solidify more on a "mission statement"
before we decide how we are going to be treated in the real-world.

I think we have to decide who and what we are before we decide 'how' we
are.
>
>-- 
>Daniel Taylor
>dante@plethora.net
>
>_______________________________________________
>Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>http://www.tcwug.org
>tcwug-list@tcwug.org
>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

-- 
                	--*--SpencerUnderground--*--
http://autonomous.tv/			       spencer@autonomous.tv
Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2  68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754

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From cncole at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 15 12:18:23 2002
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] co-op or NPO?
In-Reply-To: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com>
Message-ID: <002701c2447d$c96b04f0$6401a8c0@HPZT>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> Behalf Of spencer@mail.tcopensys.com
>
> Although I may very well be wrong, becoming a legitamite
> co-op may be just as difficult and time consuming as becoming
> a NPO.  I
> would like to see the group solidify more on a "mission statement"
> before we decide how we are going to be treated in the real-world.
>
> I think we have to decide who and what we are before we
> decide 'how' we
> are.
> >
> >--
> >Daniel Taylor
> >dante@plethora.net
> >

All that written mission stuff has direct bearing on which IRS sections
apply and determine what you *can* be.

Getting to an approved 501c3 status (or other) is not easy these days
because so many have abused the system and there's a backlog.

The State of MN must first approve, then those Inc papers go to the IRS for
their review.
MN can and does approve things that the IRS will not: they don't have the
same purpose or rules.

It doesn't work to invent something and then try to tell IRS, state, et al,
what legal history really should be
  (they have been there and done that for a few hundred years already: TCWUG
hasn't).

Either design it to be something, including the IRS and other requirements,
or later discover whether it's allowed at all in the daydream form.

Group forums and open committees of the hopeful but uninformed are not a
good way to get this stuff done.

Better to have some folks draft something and present it for review and
comment.

Needs: 1) mission stuff (what);
       2) techie stuff at outline level for function and interface
requirements (how);
       3) org stuff about official meetings, officers,
          who can vote, decisions, revenues, properties, amendments,
          and a dissolution clause (who, where, when, etc).

---
Chuck Cole



From dante at plethora.net  Thu Aug 15 17:38:31 2002
From: dante at plethora.net (Dan Taylor)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.05L.10208151136510.4945-100000@herd.plethora.net>


On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 spencer@mail.tcopensys.com wrote:

> On Wed, Aug 14, 2002 at 11:25:19PM -0500, Daniel Taylor wrote:
> >On Wed, 14 Aug 2002, Neal wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom wrote:
> >>
> >> > > I am <not> going to give anyone the benefit of my knowledge of and experience in
> >>
> <snip>
> >I still favor co-op. It seems the correct model for the project.
> hear here.
> 
> Although I may very well be wrong, becoming a legitamite
> co-op may be just as difficult and time consuming as becoming a NPO.  I
> would like to see the group solidify more on a "mission statement"
> before we decide how we are going to be treated in the real-world.
> 
> I think we have to decide who and what we are before we decide 'how' we
> are.

Quite, but part of the Non-Profit Corporation vs. Co-op decision is
exactly that. What are we setting out to do here, what is a fair enough
way to share the risks/rewards among the participants, and how do we keep
non-participants from coming in and raining on our parade?

What we are setting out to do is set up a wireless infrastructure that will
be useful and interesting to the members of TCWUG, to be composed of
links, hotspots, and uplinks as available and necessary.

The other two questions seem to be the major topic of conversation
on the list over the last couple of weeks, so:

I propose that setting up the TCWUG WWAN be done by the TCWUG as a 
cooperative business entity. This provides cost dispersal (we would
each contribute to the TCWUG/WWAN in cash and/or PIK for the privilege
of access to the WWAN) and a clear means for risk/reward sharing.


From natecars at real-time.com  Fri Aug 16 01:02:41 2002
From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] I want one.
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208151747410.21434-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

http://www.flukenetworks.com/us/LAN/Handheld+Testers/WaveRunner/Overview.htm

-- 
Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500




From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Fri Aug 16 13:07:10 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] I want one.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208151747410.21434-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>; from natecars@real-time.com on Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 05:47:48PM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208151747410.21434-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020816125142.N24439@techmonkeys.org>

On Thu, Aug 15, 2002 at 05:47:48PM -0500, Nate Carlson wrote:
> http://www.flukenetworks.com/us/LAN/Handheld+Testers/WaveRunner/Overview.htm

I'm skeptical, it sounds like a repackaged kismet. =)

> 
> -- 
> Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
> http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From andyw at pobox.com  Fri Aug 16 13:38:58 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Looking for a 2.4 GHz dish to borrow.
Message-ID: <20020816132902.E6726@florence.linkmargin.com>

I'm talking with some friends who both have cabins on
some lake "up north" (Gull Lake, I think) - they're
wondering about linking their cabins with 802.11b.

I'm getting conflicting reports of the
terrain between the two, and topo maps haven't been
too revealing - I'm figuring that the only way to
know for sure is to get up there and do some live
testing. I've got a bunch of antennae I can take up,
19dB dish, 13dB panel, omnis etc etc, but right now
I don't have 2 dishes on hand. Does anyone have a dish
or high-gain yagi that I could borrow for a few day or two
sometime ?

I promise to look after anything I borrow, and replace it
if something stupid happens to it. I just need to figure out
what's needed, then they can buy the correct pieces.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From natecars at real-time.com  Fri Aug 16 13:42:19 2002
From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] I want one.
In-Reply-To: <20020816125142.N24439@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208161331190.21095-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:
> > http://www.flukenetworks.com/us/LAN/Handheld+Testers/WaveRunner/Overview.htm
>
> I'm skeptical, it sounds like a repackaged kismet. =)

I know, you can easily do everything you can do on it with a laptop or
your own ipaq, but still.. a Fluke device running Linux is just cool.

-- 
Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500



From cheath at interlinkcom.com  Fri Aug 16 13:57:12 2002
From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:30 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Looking for a 2.4 GHz dish to borrow.
Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F400@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>

Andy,

I have a 34" grid you can borrow. It has never been off the shelf.

E-Mail me for details.

Chandler

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Warner [mailto:andyw@pobox.com]
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 1:29 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: [TCWUG] Looking for a 2.4 GHz dish to borrow.


I'm talking with some friends who both have cabins on
some lake "up north" (Gull Lake, I think) - they're
wondering about linking their cabins with 802.11b.

I'm getting conflicting reports of the
terrain between the two, and topo maps haven't been
too revealing - I'm figuring that the only way to
know for sure is to get up there and do some live
testing. I've got a bunch of antennae I can take up,
19dB dish, 13dB panel, omnis etc etc, but right now
I don't have 2 dishes on hand. Does anyone have a dish
or high-gain yagi that I could borrow for a few day or two
sometime ?

I promise to look after anything I borrow, and replace it
if something stupid happens to it. I just need to figure out
what's needed, then they can buy the correct pieces.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com
________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com
________________________________________________________________________

From mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu  Fri Aug 16 14:53:02 2002
From: mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu (Mattew Genelin)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161434250.29706-100000@ecstasy.ieee.umn.edu>

Hey Spencer (and all)-

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 spencer@mail.tcopensys.com wrote:

<snip>
<<I would like to see the group solidify more on a "mission statement">>
<snip>

	Now *that* sounds like a good starting point. Why are we here?
What is each of us getting out of this group? What do we gain by
incorporating as anything (other then headaches of paperwork)?

Regards,
---Matthew Genelin---
     _ _          __
 ---//\/\atthew  (|_;enelin---

----------------------------------------------------------------
- Matthew Genelin                     (612) 636-2472 (cell)    -
- Engineering Student                 (651) 636-1842 (parents) -
- University of Minnesota, TC         n0ynt@amsat.org          -
----------------------------------------------------------------


From andyw at pobox.com  Fri Aug 16 17:02:03 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention..
Message-ID: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2197252.stm

Anyone seen any marks around the twin cities ? I have
not.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From chrome at real-time.com  Fri Aug 16 17:03:47 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Overlay networks, payback, etc.
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161434250.29706-100000@ecstasy.ieee.umn.edu>; from mgenelin@ieee.umn.edu on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 02:36:28PM -0500
References: <20020815060302.GL28057@tcopensys.com> <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161434250.29706-100000@ecstasy.ieee.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <20020816170036.S26230@real-time.com>

> 	Now *that* sounds like a good starting point. Why are we here?
> What is each of us getting out of this group? What do we gain by
> incorporating as anything (other then headaches of paperwork)?

personally I'm just here because I think routing on wireless networks is an
Interesting Problem; and because my boss is big on this stuff and encourages
employee participation. ;)

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Fri Aug 16 18:00:08 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention..
In-Reply-To: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 04:55:52PM -0500
References: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <20020816174938.O24439@techmonkeys.org>

On Fri, Aug 16, 2002 at 04:55:52PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote:
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2197252.stm
> 
> Anyone seen any marks around the twin cities ? I have
> not.

Nope, we've got this stuff called GPS and computers, along with some
nifty maps to tell us where our access points are =P

Speaking of, I'm (soon) going to make it so that a list of access points
from maps.tcwug.org can be downloaded in waypoint format for various GPS
units, is there any real interest in this?

> -- 
> andyw@pobox.com
> 
> Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From joel at helgeson.com  Sat Aug 17 22:54:12 2002
From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Tech-Know Session
Message-ID: <000301c24660$a7213010$2802a8c0@SECURITY>

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From dave at davedash.com  Mon Aug 19 16:14:22 2002
From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes...
Message-ID: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com>

Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes?

What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway?

I was thinking with either the linksys PCI card or maybe the linksys 
wap11.  My question with the Wap 11 is can I plug it directly into a 
10/100 ethernet card or do I need a cross over cable?

thanks:)
-dd
--
Spindrop Technologies
http://www.spindroptech.com/


From cheath at interlinkcom.com  Mon Aug 19 16:35:00 2002
From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes...
Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F417@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>

WAP11, Crossover needed. ;-)

-----Original Message-----
From: dave@davedash.com [mailto:dave@davedash.com]
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 2:41 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes...


Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes?

What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway?

I was thinking with either the linksys PCI card or maybe the linksys 
wap11.  My question with the Wap 11 is can I plug it directly into a 
10/100 ethernet card or do I need a cross over cable?

thanks:)
-dd
--
Spindrop Technologies
http://www.spindroptech.com/

_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
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________________________________________________________________________
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From andyw at pobox.com  Mon Aug 19 16:38:02 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] nocat nodes...
In-Reply-To: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com>; from dave@davedash.com on Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 02:40:40PM -0500
References: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com>
Message-ID: <20020819162604.D23825@florence.linkmargin.com>

dave@davedash.com wrote:
> Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes?

Some, but I've not putzed with the nightlies in a while.

> What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway?

Linksys PCI card & hostap driver.

> I was thinking with either the linksys PCI card or maybe the linksys 
> wap11.  My question with the Wap 11 is can I plug it directly into a 
> 10/100 ethernet card or do I need a cross over cable?

You'll need a crossover cable.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From natecars at real-time.com  Mon Aug 19 20:10:18 2002
From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention..
In-Reply-To: <20020816174938.O24439@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208191206170.28929-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:
> Nope, we've got this stuff called GPS and computers, along with some
> nifty maps to tell us where our access points are =P
>
> Speaking of, I'm (soon) going to make it so that a list of access
> points from maps.tcwug.org can be downloaded in waypoint format for
> various GPS units, is there any real interest in this?

Yeah, once I get off my butt and buy a GPS! :)

-- 
Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500



From dieman at ringworld.org  Mon Aug 19 21:58:26 2002
From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes...
In-Reply-To: <20020819162604.D23825@florence.linkmargin.com>
References: <8AC0FB7C-B3AB-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com> 
	<20020819162604.D23825@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <1029802229.8610.253.camel@runabout>

On Mon, 2002-08-19 at 16:26, Andy Warner wrote:
> dave@davedash.com wrote:
> > Does anybody here have experience setting up nocat nodes?
> 
> Some, but I've not putzed with the nightlies in a while.
> 
> > What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway?
> 
> Linksys PCI card & hostap driver.

Ditto.

-- 
Scott Dier <dieman@ringworld.org> http://www.ringworld.org/


From dave at davedash.com  Mon Aug 19 22:12:02 2002
From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes...
In-Reply-To: <1029802229.8610.253.camel@runabout>
Message-ID: <A4DBAB58-B3E9-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com>

>>> What wireless interfaces have people used with the nocat gateway?
>>
>> Linksys PCI card & hostap driver.
>
> Ditto.


How is the range on those things?  I've got a couple of BEFW11S4's, do 
you think the range might be similar?

-d


From andyw at pobox.com  Mon Aug 19 22:55:34 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes...
In-Reply-To: <A4DBAB58-B3E9-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com>; from dave@davedash.com on Mon, Aug 19, 2002 at 10:05:12PM -0500
References: <1029802229.8610.253.camel@runabout> <A4DBAB58-B3E9-11D6-B897-00039397F470@davedash.com>
Message-ID: <20020819223808.F23825@florence.linkmargin.com>

dave@davedash.com wrote:
> [of Linksys WMP-11's, hostap & nocat ....]
> How is the range on those things?  I've got a couple of BEFW11S4's, do 
> you think the range might be similar?

Ish.

The RF characteristics are probably very similar. Give us an FCC
id off one of your units and we can check the FCC database for
RF output power etc.

The standalone unit has some minor advantages:

	o it has diversity antennae

	o it isn't attached to a large piece of
	  metal (the computer)

I use a detached antenna connected by a short piece
of coax with my WMP-11, which I think more than makes up
for the two things listed above. The antenna has more gain
than the dummy loads that Linksys ship with their units too.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From ben at nerp.net  Mon Aug 19 23:34:22 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes...
In-Reply-To: <20020819223808.F23825@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208192321300.22893-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

someone know a good web table of such FCC specified things?  anyone want
to make one and put it on the tcwug site?

hard data on the RF of AP's and cards would really be nice.

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, Andy Warner wrote:

> dave@davedash.com wrote:
> > [of Linksys WMP-11's, hostap & nocat ....]
> > How is the range on those things?  I've got a couple of BEFW11S4's, do
> > you think the range might be similar?
>
> Ish.
>
> The RF characteristics are probably very similar. Give us an FCC
> id off one of your units and we can check the FCC database for
> RF output power etc.
>
> The standalone unit has some minor advantages:
>
> 	o it has diversity antennae
>
> 	o it isn't attached to a large piece of
> 	  metal (the computer)
>
> I use a detached antenna connected by a short piece
> of coax with my WMP-11, which I think more than makes up
> for the two things listed above. The antenna has more gain
> than the dummy loads that Linksys ship with their units too.
> --
> andyw@pobox.com
>
> Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
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From austad at marketwatch.com  Tue Aug 20 13:58:53 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply?  If not, I'll just
grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere.

Jay

From list at slushpupie.com  Tue Aug 20 15:48:15 2002
From: list at slushpupie.com (Jay Kline)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:31 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <200208201540.38543.list@slushpupie.com>

On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply?  If not, I'll just
> grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere.

Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week.

From jkotek at madgenius.com  Tue Aug 20 16:17:22 2002
From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
Message-ID: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com>


Hey all, I have been requested to come up with a proposal for a customer of 
mine.  They have an office building that leases small offices with services.  
They would like to offer net access but because of the age of the building 
running cat5 is going to be spendy.  I have recommended possibly using 
wireless.  Now I need to find out what would the best way to deploy this.  
The building is VERY old and because of that there are walls that can be up 
to 16 inches thick cement.  I would like to know what would the best access 
points to deploy and the best authentication to use.  There is already some 
Cat5 ran through the building so I can hook into them but there also might be 
places where I would have to install a repeater.


Thanks!

Jon

From natecars at real-time.com  Tue Aug 20 16:38:27 2002
From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208201618210.26865-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote:
> Hey all, I have been requested to come up with a proposal for a
> customer of mine.  They have an office building that leases small
> offices with services.  They would like to offer net access but
> because of the age of the building running cat5 is going to be spendy.
> I have recommended possibly using wireless.  Now I need to find out
> what would the best way to deploy this.  The building is VERY old and
> because of that there are walls that can be up to 16 inches thick
> cement.  I would like to know what would the best access points to
> deploy and the best authentication to use.  There is already some Cat5
> ran through the building so I can hook into them but there also might
> be places where I would have to install a repeater.

If you haven't done this before, best to hire someone who has, and learn
from them. Sounds like a fairly complex installation.

That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's actually
going to block wireless signals. I'm not the world's expert in this or
anything, but to do a poor man's survey, you can just grab a Cisco card
and whatever AP, and use their 'Site Survey' software (Windows only..
*sigh*)..  this'll tell you what type of s/n ratio you're getting to the
AP everywhere you go. It's best to do this with the hardware they're
planning on buying - if they want cheap-o AP's, then buy a cheap AP and
use that. That way, you'll see where you need to place each AP to get
optimal signal everywhere in the building.

As far as authentication, if they want to spend big bucks, go Cisco. If
they don't want to spend big bucks, my personal way of doing it is to take
el-cheapo wireless gear and put it all behind a
Linux/OpenBSD/pick-your-favorite-IPSec-implementation VPN concentrator.
Then, require each client to use an el-cheapo VPN gateway (albeit a
Linux/OpenBSD box, or a $150 Linksys VPN router), and that way you've got
an IPSec tunnel protecting each of your clients.

'course, there are a million other ways of doin this.. :)

-- 
Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500



From chrome at real-time.com  Tue Aug 20 17:40:30 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208201618210.26865-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>; from natecars@real-time.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 04:23:44PM -0500
References: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208201618210.26865-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com>

> That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's actually
> going to block wireless signals. I'm not the world's expert in this or
> anything, but to do a poor man's survey, you can just grab a Cisco card
> and whatever AP, and use their 'Site Survey' software (Windows only..
> *sigh*)..  

there's also the tool available on this page:
http://gicl.mcs.drexel.edu/people/sevy//airport/

which I haven't tried out yet; but since his rg1000 config tool works
fairly well (once you have the java2 JRE installed); I'd guess that the
link test tool works as well.

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From chewie at wookimus.net  Tue Aug 20 17:44:24 2002
From: chewie at wookimus.net (Chad Walstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 20 Aug 2002 16:23:44 CDT."
             <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208201618210.26865-100000@enchanter.real-time.com> 
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208201618210.26865-100000@enchanter.real-time.com> 
Message-ID: <20020820215530.8D98C1809B@wookimus.net>

Nate wrote:
> That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's
> actually going to block wireless signals. ...[snip]...  this'll tell
> you what type of s/n ratio you're getting to the AP everywhere you go. 

I believe you can just use "iwconfig <interface>" from the Linux
wireless tools packages.  i.e.

	#!/bin/sh -e
	# Run this script w/the first arg being the location (i.e.
	# "takewstat room221"
	iwconfig >> ${1:-"unspecified"}.stat

You should get signal and noise stats right there.  Sure, it's not all
pretty and graphed for you, but it's the data that's important.

> It's best to do this with the hardware they're planning on buying - if
> they want cheap-o AP's, then buy a cheap AP and use that. That way,
> you'll see where you need to place each AP to get optimal signal
> everywhere in the building.

Good advice.

> As far as authentication ...[snip]... 'course, there are a million
> other ways of doin this.. :)

I wonder if the University of Minnesota NTS department has published
their authentication software yet.  At the U, every student, faculty and
staff member receive X.500 accounts with which they can authenticate via
a web interface or system logins (UNIX).  The NTS department uses the
X.500 accounts to authenticate wireless users by tying in the DHCP
subnet with DNS forwarding and/or iptables/ipchains filtering. 

The user then goes to the website to authenticate.  When the
authentication is approved, the controlling daemon opens up the firewall
and routing rules for the DHCP IP address associated with that person.
It's pretty slick.

There was also an article in one of the recent System Administrator
magazine with something to that effect.

-- 
Chad Walstrom <chewie@wookimus.net>                 | a.k.a. ^chewie
http://www.wookimus.net/                            | s.k.a. gunnarr

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Tue Aug 20 18:08:58 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
In-Reply-To: <200208201540.38543.list@slushpupie.com>; from list@slushpupie.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB127@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208201540.38543.list@slushpupie.com>
Message-ID: <20020820180044.J17346@techmonkeys.org>

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply?  If not, I'll just
> > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere.
> 
> Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week.

This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's to purchase one.

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From ben at nerp.net  Tue Aug 20 21:03:12 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208202040390.7598-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I think running wireless as the only access system,  one of the things
i've found in situations like that, is wireless is not a substitute for
wired infrastructure.  maybe HPNA might be an option.. 10mbit over
existing lines.. it's cheap, fairly fast, and can be converted to ethernet
easily

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote:

>
>
> Hey all, I have been requested to come up with a proposal for a customer of
> mine.  They have an office building that leases small offices with services.
> They would like to offer net access but because of the age of the building
> running cat5 is going to be spendy.  I have recommended possibly using
> wireless.  Now I need to find out what would the best way to deploy this.
> The building is VERY old and because of that there are walls that can be up
> to 16 inches thick cement.  I would like to know what would the best access
> points to deploy and the best authentication to use.  There is already some
> Cat5 ran through the building so I can hook into them but there also might be
> places where I would have to install a repeater.
>
>
> Thanks!
>
> Jon
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
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From austad at marketwatch.com  Tue Aug 20 21:50:10 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

 I just picked one up.  It's supposed to be $59.99 after a $30 mail in
rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99.  So if I can find the rebate thing,
it would be only $29.99.

It took me awhile to get it working.  I was trying to use WEP and it wasn't
working at all.  Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an Orinoco Gold?  I
upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck.  So I'm not using WEP
right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list thing on the AP
to prevent others from hopping on.

Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done through the USB port
with some wacky winders program, which was kind of annoying.  Further config
can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, but I think I saw a gnome
or kde based util specifically for these awhile back.  I just have to find
it.

Jay

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew S. Hallacy
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP

On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote:
> On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply?  If not,
I'll just
> > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere.
> 
> Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week.

This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's to purchase
one.

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH
Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key
0x01938203
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

From austad at marketwatch.com  Tue Aug 20 23:04:30 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office 
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

 
>I wonder if the University of Minnesota NTS department has published
>their authentication software yet.  At the U, every student, faculty and
>staff member receive X.500 accounts with which they can authenticate via
>a web interface or system logins (UNIX).  The NTS department uses the
>X.500 accounts to authenticate wireless users by tying in the DHCP
>subnet with DNS forwarding and/or iptables/ipchains filtering. 
>
>The user then goes to the website to authenticate.  When the
>authentication is approved, the controlling daemon opens up the firewall
>and routing rules for the DHCP IP address associated with that person.
>It's pretty slick.

Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall.  It's
$495, and it supports authentication against LDAP, RADIUS, or an internal
database.  With LDAP or RADIUS, you could authentication against a windows
domain very easily by running IAS on your domain controller.  When a user
tries to go anywhere via http, telnet, or ssh, the NetScreen will intercept
it and bring up an authentication prompt (web page for http, command line
for telnet or ssh).  Once the user authenticates, their request is forwarded
and allowed back through.  You can set the length of time for their session,
I'm not sure if the session is based on IP or MAC address, but it works
sweet.

Jay

From dieman at ringworld.org  Wed Aug 21 03:05:27 2002
From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: 
	<54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
References: 
	<54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <1029907556.8583.0.camel@runabout>

On Tue, 2002-08-20 at 22:45, Austad, Jay wrote:

> Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall.  It's
> $495, and it supports authentication against LDAP, RADIUS, or an internal
> database.  With LDAP or RADIUS, you could authentication against a windows
> domain very easily by running IAS on your domain controller.  When a user

These guys do it too, and they support Linux netfilter hackers. :)

http://www.watchguard.com/products/authentication.asp

-- 
Scott Dier <dieman@ringworld.org> http://www.ringworld.org/


From list at slushpupie.com  Wed Aug 21 07:11:32 2002
From: list at slushpupie.com (Jay Kline)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com>

I read the add that it was just $59.99.  If you find a mail in rebate, let me 
know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. 

If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows app, I would like 
to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for something.  Even a port 
scan dosnt show anything open on it.  

Jay

On Tuesday 20 August 2002 09:24 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
>  I just picked one up.  It's supposed to be $59.99 after a $30 mail in
> rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99.  So if I can find the rebate thing,
> it would be only $29.99.
>
> It took me awhile to get it working.  I was trying to use WEP and it wasn't
> working at all.  Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an Orinoco Gold?  I
> upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck.  So I'm not using WEP
> right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list thing on the AP
> to prevent others from hopping on.
>
> Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done through the USB port
> with some wacky winders program, which was kind of annoying.  Further
> config can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, but I think I saw
> a gnome or kde based util specifically for these awhile back.  I just have
> to find it.
>
> Jay
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matthew S. Hallacy
> To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
>
> On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote:
> > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply?  If not,
>
> I'll just
>
> > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere.
> >
> > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week.
>
> This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's to purchase
> one.

-- 
Jay Kline
http://www.slushpupie.com/

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Wed Aug 21 09:08:22 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
In-Reply-To: <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com>; from list@slushpupie.com on Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 06:35:38AM -0500
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com>
Message-ID: <20020821085546.Q17346@techmonkeys.org>

On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 06:35:38AM -0500, Jay Kline wrote:
> I read the add that it was just $59.99.  If you find a mail in rebate, let me 
> know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. 
> 
> If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows app, I would like 
> to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for something.  Even a port 
> scan dosnt show anything open on it.  
> 
> Jay

IIRC it's selective about which interface it allows SNMP traffic from,
spencer would know more.

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From list at slushpupie.com  Wed Aug 21 09:50:00 2002
From: list at slushpupie.com (Jay Kline)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
In-Reply-To: <20020821085546.Q17346@techmonkeys.org>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12D@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <200208210635.39131.list@slushpupie.com> <20020821085546.Q17346@techmonkeys.org>
Message-ID: <200208210921.28072.list@slushpupie.com>

On Wednesday 21 August 2002 8:55 am, Matthew S. Hallacy wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 06:35:38AM -0500, Jay Kline wrote:
> > I read the add that it was just $59.99.  If you find a mail in rebate,
> > let me know, I wouldnt mind getting that either.
> >
> > If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows app, I would
> > like to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for something. 
> > Even a port scan dosnt show anything open on it.
> >
> > Jay
>
> IIRC it's selective about which interface it allows SNMP traffic from,
> spencer would know more.


Nope, works on any interface.  I found the Linux based utils, though.  

http://roma.polesye.net/

If you run debian, apt-get ap-utils and use ap-atmel


Jay

From chrome at real-time.com  Wed Aug 21 10:37:44 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>; from austad@marketwatch.com on Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 10:45:28PM -0500
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>
Message-ID: <20020821095734.V30528@real-time.com>

> Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall.  

	didn't you once say there was a 10-user limit on that thing, tho?
even a small office could exceed that, depending on how you reckon '10
users'. (whether it's per-source-ip [in which case, how do they deal with
terminal servers?], or per-connection).

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From jkotek at madgenius.com  Wed Aug 21 11:08:03 2002
From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020821095734.V30528@real-time.com>
References: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB12F@mspexch2.office.mktw.net> <20020821095734.V30528@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020821105940.M67063@madgenius.com>

I seem to have thought that it was IP based, so if I have a NAT box in front 
of it, it would only see one IP address.

Jon



> > Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 5xp firewall.  
> 
> 	didn't you once say there was a 10-user limit on that thing, tho?
> even a small office could exceed that, depending on how you reckon 
> '10 users'. (whether it's per-source-ip [in which case, how do they 
> deal with terminal servers?], or per-connection).
> 
> Carl Soderstrom.
> -- 
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
>  Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org 
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list




From mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu  Wed Aug 21 11:13:13 2002
From: mgenelin at ieee.umn.edu (Mattew Genelin)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Warchalking gets minor FBi attention..
In-Reply-To: <20020816165552.A10525@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208211050430.18449-100000@ecstasy.ieee.umn.edu>

Hey Andy-

	Interesting. This was brought up at DEFCON a few weeks ago.
Seattle Wireless uses chalking to help spread the word about their network
in the street.

Regards,
---Matthew Genelin---

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002, Andy Warner wrote:

> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2197252.stm
>
> Anyone seen any marks around the twin cities ? I have
> not.

     _ _          __
 ---//\/\atthew  (|_;enelin---

----------------------------------------------------------------
- Matthew Genelin                     (612) 636-2472 (cell)    -
- Engineering Student                 (651) 636-1842 (parents) -
- University of Minnesota, TC         n0ynt@amsat.org          -
----------------------------------------------------------------


From austad at marketwatch.com  Wed Aug 21 11:55:32 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB131@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

The unlimited license is another $495, so you'd have $990 (list) into it.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom [mailto:chrome@real-time.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 9:58 AM
> To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
> 
> 
> > Or, you could go with my new favorite toy, the NetScreen 
> 5xp firewall.  
> 
> 	didn't you once say there was a 10-user limit on that 
> thing, tho?
> even a small office could exceed that, depending on how you reckon '10
> users'. (whether it's per-source-ip [in which case, how do 
> they deal with
> terminal servers?], or per-connection).
> 
> Carl Soderstrom.
> -- 
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - 
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> 

From austad at marketwatch.com  Wed Aug 21 12:03:42 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:32 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB132@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

I couldn't find the mail in rebate, looks like dlink had one, but it expired
last month.

Best Buy has the Dlink 614+ for $89.99 after a $20 mail in rebate.  I'm
thinking about returning the 900ap and getting the 614+ instead.  Way more
features, a web interface, built in firewall (can also act as a bridge), 4
port switch, etc...  Plus, it looks cooler.  :)

Jay

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jay Kline [mailto:list@slushpupie.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:36 AM
> To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
> 
> 
> I read the add that it was just $59.99.  If you find a mail 
> in rebate, let me 
> know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. 
> 
> If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows 
> app, I would like 
> to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for 
> something.  Even a port 
> scan dosnt show anything open on it.  
> 
> Jay
> 
> On Tuesday 20 August 2002 09:24 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> >  I just picked one up.  It's supposed to be $59.99 after a 
> $30 mail in
> > rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99.  So if I can find 
> the rebate thing,
> > it would be only $29.99.
> >
> > It took me awhile to get it working.  I was trying to use 
> WEP and it wasn't
> > working at all.  Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an 
> Orinoco Gold?  I
> > upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck.  So 
> I'm not using WEP
> > right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list 
> thing on the AP
> > to prevent others from hopping on.
> >
> > Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done 
> through the USB port
> > with some wacky winders program, which was kind of 
> annoying.  Further
> > config can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, 
> but I think I saw
> > a gnome or kde based util specifically for these awhile 
> back.  I just have
> > to find it.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Matthew S. Hallacy
> > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> > > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of cheaply?  If not,
> >
> > I'll just
> >
> > > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere.
> > >
> > > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week.
> >
> > This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's 
> to purchase
> > one.
> 
> -- 
> Jay Kline
> http://www.slushpupie.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - 
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> 

From jkotek at madgenius.com  Wed Aug 21 12:03:57 2002
From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com>
References: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208201618210.26865-100000@enchanter.real-time.com> <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com>

Ok some more details,

At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a 512K DSL 
line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server.  My only connection 
with them so far is the fact that I know the smoothwall part.  I would like 
to do some sort of web based authentication I think going to a radius 
server.  I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if 
I need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would be 
able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering with WEP. 
Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that work with roaming 
(I am assuming that they want to promote access from all conference rooms)  
and still using MAC filtering??  Would I need to update all AP's (I am doing 
a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could turn into an admin headache.  Otherwise 
throw out the MAC filtering and just stick with WEP and radius.  I know they 
would like to have some sort of accouting of usage, which 


Jon





> > That said, you'll need to do a site survey, to figure out what's actually
> > going to block wireless signals. I'm not the world's expert in this or
> > anything, but to do a poor man's survey, you can just grab a Cisco card
> > and whatever AP, and use their 'Site Survey' software (Windows only..
> > *sigh*)..  
> 
> there's also the tool available on this page:
> http://gicl.mcs.drexel.edu/people/sevy//airport/
> 
> which I haven't tried out yet; but since his rg1000 config tool works
> fairly well (once you have the java2 JRE installed); I'd guess that the
> link test tool works as well.
> 
> Carl Soderstrom.
> -- 
> Systems Administrator
> Real-Time Enterprises
> www.real-time.com
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
>  Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org 
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list




From andyw at pobox.com  Wed Aug 21 14:21:29 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com>; from jkotek@madgenius.com on Wed, Aug 21, 2002 at 11:45:20AM -0500
References: <20020820095829.M58723@madgenius.com> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208201618210.26865-100000@enchanter.real-time.com> <20020820165159.K30528@real-time.com> <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com>
Message-ID: <20020821140459.A30319@florence.linkmargin.com>

Jon Kotek wrote:
> server.  I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if 
> I need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would be 
> able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering with WEP. 

Watch out for repeating - it can flush performance right down the
toilet. Lots more contention, lots more hidden-node - think about
using cts/rts in a configuration with that much opportunity for
hidden-node (might be a good idea if the RF environment sucks
anyway.)

> Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that work with roaming 
> (I am assuming that they want to promote access from all conference rooms)  
> and still using MAC filtering??  Would I need to update all AP's (I am doing 
> a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could turn into an admin headache.  Otherwise 

That would suck somewhat. I'm fairly sure you can do the MAC table update
via snmp, so it could be automated using your favourite snmp toolkit. I
don't think linksys have published an enterprise mib, but I'm fairly
sure it could be reverse engineered from snmpwalk & ethereal.

Of course, you'd need to ensure that the "backbone" was 100% wired
for mac filtering to be at all useful, otherwise the snmp read/write
community string will get sent over the air, which makes an attack
where someone added their own MAC semi-trivial - either that or accept
the risk of that happening.

Be aware that WAP-11's are very inferior to Cisco APs, in terms of
RF performance (there's at least one person I know of on the list
who did a linksys-for-cisco replacement, and can vouch for the
vastly reduced coverage/performance - and some additional issues
that have eventually been smoothed out by firmware upgrades..)
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From natecars at real-time.com  Thu Aug 22 01:03:13 2002
From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020820215530.8D98C1809B@wookimus.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208211343360.2649-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

On Tue, 20 Aug 2002, Chad Walstrom wrote:
> I believe you can just use "iwconfig <interface>" from the Linux
> wireless tools packages.  i.e.
>
> 	#!/bin/sh -e
> 	# Run this script w/the first arg being the location (i.e.
> 	# "takewstat room221"
> 	iwconfig >> ${1:-"unspecified"}.stat
>
> You should get signal and noise stats right there.  Sure, it's not all
> pretty and graphed for you, but it's the data that's important.

With my Cisco card, the numbers you get are useless (using wireless-tools
v25 and wireless extensions 14, with whatever driver for the Cisco card is
in 2.4.20-pre2).  :( With a Prism2 card, they look ok, though..

> I wonder if the University of Minnesota NTS department has published
> their authentication software yet.  At the U, every student, faculty
> and staff member receive X.500 accounts with which they can
> authenticate via a web interface or system logins (UNIX).  The NTS
> department uses the X.500 accounts to authenticate wireless users by
> tying in the DHCP subnet with DNS forwarding and/or iptables/ipchains
> filtering.
>
> The user then goes to the website to authenticate.  When the
> authentication is approved, the controlling daemon opens up the
> firewall and routing rules for the DHCP IP address associated with
> that person. It's pretty slick.
>
> There was also an article in one of the recent System Administrator
> magazine with something to that effect.

Sounds like fancy nocatauth.

-- 
Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500




From natecars at real-time.com  Thu Aug 22 01:39:16 2002
From: natecars at real-time.com (Nate Carlson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208211346240.2649-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote:
> At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a
> 512K DSL line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server.  My
> only connection with them so far is the fact that I know the
> smoothwall part.  I would like to do some sort of web based
> authentication I think going to a radius server.

So you actually want people to be able to walk through the building with
their laptops and stuff, then? I was thinking of doing wireless as a
replacement for wired, where you just set up a wireless->wired bridge at
each suite who buys internet access, and let them do whatever they want
with the ethernet port.

If you're going to force non-roaming users to authenticate via a web
browser every time they want to hit the 'net, they may not be too happy..
also, 11mb won't seem like very much if you're having everyone use it for
their LAN along with 'net access.

>  I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if I
> need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would
> be able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering
> with WEP.  Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that
> work with roaming (I am assuming that they want to promote access from
> all conference rooms)  and still using MAC filtering??  Would I need
> to update all AP's (I am doing a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could
> turn into an admin headache.  Otherwise throw out the MAC filtering
> and just stick with WEP and radius.  I know they would like to have
> some sort of accouting of usage, which

I'd still vote on IPSec to a VPN concentrator. That way, you can set up
whatever kind of account you want right on the concentrator. Plus, you're
actually going to be reasonably secure, which plain WEP+Mac Filtering
isn't (yet).

As far as roaming, as long as they are all hooked up to the same physical
network, you should be fine. If you've got a separate subnet for each AP,
it's quite a bit more difficult (need mobile ip or somethin).

-- 
Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500



From joel at helgeson.com  Thu Aug 22 07:40:07 2002
From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208211346240.2649-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <000201c249d3$d11756d0$2802a8c0@SECURITY>

Actually, you should just look at a product called ReefEdge
(www.reefedge.com) This device handles all user authentication, allows
you to roam between subnets while keeping the same IP address and it
will also differentiate guest users from employees - thus allowing
guests to only access the internet from lets say the conference room,
and the internal users can access all the network resources that you
want them to.

The ReefEdge device uses 168 bit 3des encryption, works with ANY access
point and ANY wireless card, and authenticates off of your NT/2k/Netware
domain.

I have no relation to Reefedge. I just think their product is way cool
because it does what everyone seems to wish a Wireless Network could do.

Regards,

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On
Behalf Of Nate Carlson
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 1:51 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office

On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote:
> At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a
> 512K DSL line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server.  My
> only connection with them so far is the fact that I know the
> smoothwall part.  I would like to do some sort of web based
> authentication I think going to a radius server.

So you actually want people to be able to walk through the building with
their laptops and stuff, then? I was thinking of doing wireless as a
replacement for wired, where you just set up a wireless->wired bridge at
each suite who buys internet access, and let them do whatever they want
with the ethernet port.

If you're going to force non-roaming users to authenticate via a web
browser every time they want to hit the 'net, they may not be too
happy..
also, 11mb won't seem like very much if you're having everyone use it
for
their LAN along with 'net access.

>  I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if I
> need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would
> be able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering
> with WEP.  Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that
> work with roaming (I am assuming that they want to promote access from
> all conference rooms)  and still using MAC filtering??  Would I need
> to update all AP's (I am doing a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could
> turn into an admin headache.  Otherwise throw out the MAC filtering
> and just stick with WEP and radius.  I know they would like to have
> some sort of accouting of usage, which

I'd still vote on IPSec to a VPN concentrator. That way, you can set up
whatever kind of account you want right on the concentrator. Plus,
you're
actually going to be reasonably secure, which plain WEP+Mac Filtering
isn't (yet).

As far as roaming, as long as they are all hooked up to the same
physical
network, you should be fine. If you've got a separate subnet for each
AP,
it's quite a bit more difficult (need mobile ip or somethin).

-- 
Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500


_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From jkotek at madgenius.com  Thu Aug 22 07:48:10 2002
From: jkotek at madgenius.com (Jon Kotek)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208211346240.2649-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>
References: <20020821114520.M76082@madgenius.com> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208211346240.2649-100000@enchanter.real-time.com>
Message-ID: <20020822073914.M48368@madgenius.com>

Most if not all of the office space is for one person, maybe two.  So having 
more then one computer or a server is not the norm.  

Jon






> On Wed, 21 Aug 2002, Jon Kotek wrote:
> > At this point there are 6 runs of Cat5 already done, and they have a
> > 512K DSL line installed going into a smoothwall firewall server.  My
> > only connection with them so far is the fact that I know the
> > smoothwall part.  I would like to do some sort of web based
> > authentication I think going to a radius server.
> 
> So you actually want people to be able to walk through the building with
> their laptops and stuff, then? I was thinking of doing wireless as a
> replacement for wired, where you just set up a wireless->wired 
> bridge at each suite who buys internet access, and let them do 
> whatever they want with the ethernet port.
> 
> If you're going to force non-roaming users to authenticate via a web
> browser every time they want to hit the 'net, they may not be too happy..
> also, 11mb won't seem like very much if you're having everyone use 
> it for their LAN along with 'net access.
> 
> >  I am going to push the cisco gear since it can run as a repeater if I
> > need to, otherwise if the runs of cat5 are fairly spread out I would
> > be able to run a cheaper solution (WAP11) and go with MAC filtering
> > with WEP.  Now my other question is in using say a WAP11 AP would that
> > work with roaming (I am assuming that they want to promote access from
> > all conference rooms)  and still using MAC filtering??  Would I need
> > to update all AP's (I am doing a WAG of 4 or 5 per floor) that could
> > turn into an admin headache.  Otherwise throw out the MAC filtering
> > and just stick with WEP and radius.  I know they would like to have
> > some sort of accouting of usage, which
> 
> I'd still vote on IPSec to a VPN concentrator. That way, you can set 
> up whatever kind of account you want right on the concentrator. Plus,
>  you're actually going to be reasonably secure, which plain WEP+Mac 
Filtering
> isn't (yet).
> 
> As far as roaming, as long as they are all hooked up to the same physical
> network, you should be fine. If you've got a separate subnet for 
> each AP, it's quite a bit more difficult (need mobile ip or somethin).
> 
> -- 
> Nate Carlson <natecars@real-time.com>   | Phone : (952)943-8700
> http://www.real-time.com                | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
>  Minnesota http://www.tcwug.org tcwug-list@tcwug.org 
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list




From ben at nerp.net  Thu Aug 22 10:39:37 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey.
What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm.

this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna,
and do a bunch of driving around.

thigns we would need:
Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing.
several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we
get.
about 50' of coax.
a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena.
a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :)

people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."
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From jeff at digitalguy.net  Thu Aug 22 10:48:43 2002
From: jeff at digitalguy.net (Jeff Lehman)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 10:27:41AM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <20020822104100.C32716@sarah.digitalguy.net>

Count me in.  I've got a 12db omni on the car with a cisco 352 card as well as a ham license and the timeframe is perfect.
I'd be glad to do whatever i can :)

Ben Kochie (ben@nerp.net) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey.
> What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm.
> 
> this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna,
> and do a bunch of driving around.
> 
> thigns we would need:
> Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing.
> several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we
> get.
> about 50' of coax.
> a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena.
> a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :)
> 
> people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC
> 
> - -ben
> 
>  "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
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> /Zc9OSkULfE9VEM5ep9G2o0=
> =fJwM
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

From cheath at interlinkcom.com  Thu Aug 22 11:04:32 2002
From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43C@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>

Ben,

I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors
tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of
pipe to. 

I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run from
batteries so power will not be an issue.

cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys.

I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna.

Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some
signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals to
contend with.

Let me know if you are interested.

chandler heath

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Kochie [mailto:ben@nerp.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 10:28 AM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey.
What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm.

this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna,
and do a bunch of driving around.

thigns we would need:
Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing.
several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we
get.
about 50' of coax.
a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena.
a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :)

people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."
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=fJwM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
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around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com
________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________

From ben at nerp.net  Thu Aug 22 11:29:53 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43C@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221107350.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has
been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of
your spectrum analizer?

someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of
down-tilt.

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote:

> Ben,
>
> I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors
> tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of
> pipe to.
>
> I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run from
> batteries so power will not be an issue.
>
> cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys.
>
> I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna.
>
> Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some
> signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals to
> contend with.
>
> Let me know if you are interested.
>
> chandler heath
>
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From austad at marketwatch.com  Thu Aug 22 11:34:04 2002
From: austad at marketwatch.com (Austad, Jay)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
Message-ID: <54180709DD3FE145917BB165AFE7EFA00ABFB152@mspexch2.office.mktw.net>

Well, I returned the 900ap and got the 614+.  It's *way* better.  Initial
config is done through the web interface and WEP actually works with it, I
couldn't get WEP to work on the 900ap.

I'm not using the firewalling stuff, I just have it plugged into my network
with a crossover from one of the 4 inside ports to my switch, disabled dhcp,
and let my Netscreen continue to assign addresses.  Works great.

Jay

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Austad, Jay [mailto:austad@marketwatch.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 11:43 AM
> To: 'tcwug-list@tcwug.org'
> Subject: RE: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
> 
> 
> I couldn't find the mail in rebate, looks like dlink had one, 
> but it expired
> last month.
> 
> Best Buy has the Dlink 614+ for $89.99 after a $20 mail in 
> rebate.  I'm
> thinking about returning the 900ap and getting the 614+ 
> instead.  Way more
> features, a web interface, built in firewall (can also act as 
> a bridge), 4
> port switch, etc...  Plus, it looks cooler.  :)
> 
> Jay
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jay Kline [mailto:list@slushpupie.com]
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2002 6:36 AM
> > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
> > 
> > 
> > I read the add that it was just $59.99.  If you find a mail 
> > in rebate, let me 
> > know, I wouldnt mind getting that either. 
> > 
> > If you can figure out the SNMP thing without their windows 
> > app, I would like 
> > to hear about that too. I tried looking all over for 
> > something.  Even a port 
> > scan dosnt show anything open on it.  
> > 
> > Jay
> > 
> > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 09:24 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> > >  I just picked one up.  It's supposed to be $59.99 after a 
> > $30 mail in
> > > rebate, but it's ringing up at $59.99.  So if I can find 
> > the rebate thing,
> > > it would be only $29.99.
> > >
> > > It took me awhile to get it working.  I was trying to use 
> > WEP and it wasn't
> > > working at all.  Any ideas on getting WEP to work with an 
> > Orinoco Gold?  I
> > > upgraded my drivers and firmware, but still no luck.  So 
> > I'm not using WEP
> > > right now, but I've enabled the MAC address permission list 
> > thing on the AP
> > > to prevent others from hopping on.
> > >
> > > Unfortunately, initial config of the unit must be done 
> > through the USB port
> > > with some wacky winders program, which was kind of 
> > annoying.  Further
> > > config can be done via the snmp util that comes with it, 
> > but I think I saw
> > > a gnome or kde based util specifically for these awhile 
> > back.  I just have
> > > to find it.
> > >
> > > Jay
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Matthew S. Hallacy
> > > To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > > Sent: 8/20/2002 6:00 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [TCWUG] looking for a WAP
> > >
> > > On Tue, Aug 20, 2002 at 03:40:38PM -0500, Jay Kline wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 20 August 2002 1:25 pm, Austad, Jay wrote:
> > > > > Anyone have a used WAP they want to get rid of 
> cheaply?  If not,
> > >
> > > I'll just
> > >
> > > > > grab a $100 Dlink one somewhere.
> > > >
> > > > Office Max has the Dlink 900AP for $60 on sale this week.
> > >
> > > This would be a great chance for those of you without AP's 
> > to purchase
> > > one.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Jay Kline
> > http://www.slushpupie.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - 
> > Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> > http://www.tcwug.org
> > tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - 
> Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> 

From cheath at interlinkcom.com  Thu Aug 22 11:45:37 2002
From: cheath at interlinkcom.com (Heath, Chandler)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
Message-ID: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>

Ben,

The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting
anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that
support down-tilt.

Chandler

-----Original Message-----
From: Ben Kochie [mailto:ben@nerp.net]
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 11:11 AM
To: 'tcwug-list@tcwug.org'
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey


-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has
been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of
your spectrum analizer?

someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of
down-tilt.

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote:

> Ben,
>
> I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors
> tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of
> pipe to.
>
> I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run
from
> batteries so power will not be an issue.
>
> cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys.
>
> I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna.
>
> Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some
> signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals
to
> contend with.
>
> Let me know if you are interested.
>
> chandler heath
>
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=sp9P
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

________________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
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________________________________________________________________________

________________________________________________________________________
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________________________________________________________________________

From spencer at tcopensys.com  Thu Aug 22 13:05:58 2002
From: spencer at tcopensys.com (spencer@tcopensys.com)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:33 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>
References: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>
Message-ID: <20020822171047.GD1416@tcopensys.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 11:30:56AM -0500, Heath, Chandler wrote:
>Ben,
>
>The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting
>anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that
>support down-tilt.
>
>Chandler
>
*****
I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter.  It has an 'N' connector on
it. I suspect this might come in handy.  I have a tripod that could be
used for whatever, and some other misc junk.
count me in...
>oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has
>been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of
>your spectrum analizer?
>
>someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of
>down-tilt.
>
>- -ben
>
> "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."
>
>On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote:
>
>> Ben,
>>
>> I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors
>> tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of
>> pipe to.
>>
>> I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run
>from
>> batteries so power will not be an issue.
>>
>> cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys.
>>
>> I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna.
>>
>> Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some
>> signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals
>to
>> contend with.
>>
>> Let me know if you are interested.
>>
>> chandler heath
>>
>-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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>Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org
>
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>=sp9P
>-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
>
>_______________________________________________
>Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
>Minnesota
>http://www.tcwug.org
>tcwug-list@tcwug.org
>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
>service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
>around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com
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>________________________________________________________________________
>This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
>service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
>around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com
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>_______________________________________________
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From ben at nerp.net  Thu Aug 22 13:06:34 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221254110.27110-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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I was actualy asking about the frequency range.  I wanted to know if we
could look for other things in the range of 5ghz as well.

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote:

> Ben,
>
> The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting
> anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that
> support down-tilt.
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From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Aug 22 13:25:51 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <000201c249d3$d11756d0$2802a8c0@SECURITY>; from joel@helgeson.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 07:02:40AM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208211346240.2649-100000@enchanter.real-time.com> <000201c249d3$d11756d0$2802a8c0@SECURITY>
Message-ID: <20020822131900.C11161@real-time.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 07:02:40AM -0500, Joel R. Helgeson wrote:
> Actually, you should just look at a product called ReefEdge
> (www.reefedge.com) 

hmm, interesting. 
I also see by the brochure that it will authenticate against RADIUS as well.

<rant>
it'd be nice if they just came out and called it a firewall/authentication
server/VPN concentrator/mobile IP gateway, rather than wasting our time with
3000 buzzwords. one could describe their product in about 500 words... and
I'd put a lot more faith in a company that actually came out and *said* what
it did. too many words means they spent too much money on marketdroids,
rather than people who make the product work well.
then again, i'm not a PHB or marketdroid.
</rant>

Carl Soderstrom
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From andyw at pobox.com  Thu Aug 22 14:40:18 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... (resend)
Message-ID: <20020822132635.B3488@florence.linkmargin.com>

Originally sent on Tuesday, I'm resending this because
I never saw it make it to the list (or the archive)..

Ben Kochie wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> someone know a good web table of such FCC specified things?  anyone want
> to make one and put it on the tcwug site?

It's pretty labour intensive extracting the info from the
reports. I'll dig up the info that I have already extracted
and make it available. I'll also happily act as coordinator
of data, so if anyone else digs up info, send it to me.

The basic FCC serach page is:

	http://www.fcc.gov/oet/fccid/

For instance, here's the records for our trusty friend
the Linksys WPC-11:

	https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/oet/forms/reports/Search_Form.hts?mode=Edit&form=Exhibits&application_id=98545&fcc_id=O7J-GL2411010700

You get several pages of schematics for that one too:

	https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=114375&native_or_pdf=pdf
	https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/forms/blobs/retrieve.cgi?attachment_id=114376&native_or_pdf=pdf

> hard data on the RF of AP's and cards would really be nice.

Let's see if we can't start something, then.
I've probably dug into about 15 products, I'll find my notes
and if others research devices that are of interest to them and
feed me the data, I'll format it and publish it.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From chrome at real-time.com  Thu Aug 22 17:08:55 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: nocat nodes... (resend)
In-Reply-To: <20020822132635.B3488@florence.linkmargin.com>; from andyw@pobox.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:26:35PM -0500
References: <20020822132635.B3488@florence.linkmargin.com>
Message-ID: <20020822165821.M11161@real-time.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 01:26:35PM -0500, Andy Warner wrote:
> For instance, here's the records for our trusty friend
> the Linksys WPC-11:
> 
> 	https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/oet/forms/reports/Search_Form.hts?mode=Edit&form=Exhibits&application_id=98545&fcc_id=O7J-GL2411010700

hey, that's pretty nifty. thanks for posting that. :)

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From joel at helgeson.com  Thu Aug 22 18:35:00 2002
From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <20020822131900.C11161@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <000501c24a32$a0e6dda0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>

Replies below...

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On
Behalf Of Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom
Sent: Thursday, August 22, 2002 1:19 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 07:02:40AM -0500, Joel R. Helgeson wrote:
> Actually, you should just look at a product called ReefEdge
> (www.reefedge.com) 

hmm, interesting. 
I also see by the brochure that it will authenticate against RADIUS as
well.

<rant>
it'd be nice if they just came out and called it a
firewall/authentication
server/VPN concentrator/mobile IP gateway, rather than wasting our time
with
3000 buzzwords. one could describe their product in about 500 words...
and
I'd put a lot more faith in a company that actually came out and *said*
what
it did. too many words means they spent too much money on marketdroids,
rather than people who make the product work well.
then again, i'm not a PHB or marketdroid.
</rant>

<reply>
If they said it was a firewall, then people will think it is a firewall
and want to have it filter their internet connection. That's not what it
does.  If they said it was a VPN concentrator, then the morons of the
world will try and terminate their remote users on AOL on the thing,
it's not that either. It is an appliance that uses several technologies.
IMHO, to use the words you have will only serve to confuse people into
thinking they can buy this thing and use it in place of their
WatchGuard.
Joel
</reply>

Carl Soderstrom
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Thu Aug 22 19:25:38 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <3D657CD4.A827D00E@nkras.dsl.visi.com>


Ben Kochie wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Ok.. i've decided I should set a date for doing the moos tower survey.
> What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm.
>
> this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna,
> and do a bunch of driving around.
>
> thigns we would need:
> Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing.
> several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we
> get.
> about 50' of coax.
> a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena.
> a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :)
>

Are you going to plot along radials, at specific points, or at random? What of
other points of elevation?


From spencer at autonomous.tv  Thu Aug 22 21:54:02 2002
From: spencer at autonomous.tv (SpencerUnderground)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>
References: <43DEC38D2C1FB14F81B4B42CDDC034E830F43D@interlink-sv1.interlinkcom.com>
Message-ID: <20020823023410.GH1416@tcopensys.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 11:30:56AM -0500, Heath, Chandler wrote:
>Ben,
>
>The range of the analyzer is -40dBm to +20dBm. I would not be connecting
>anything directly to it ;-) I do not have any omni/sector antennas that
>support down-tilt.
>
>Chandler
>
*****
I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter.  It has an 'N' connector on
it. I suspect this might come in handy.  I have a tripod that could be
used for whatever, and some other misc junk.
count me in...
>oh.. excelent.. there are other 2.4ghz signals on the roof.. and there has
>been some concern about the noise floor up there.. what is the range of
>your spectrum analizer?
>
>someone had mentioned trying to find antennas with some degree of
>down-tilt.
>
>- -ben
>
> "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."
>
>On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Heath, Chandler wrote:
>
>> Ben,
>>
>> I have most of the items you are needing. I use a couple of surveyors
>> tripods retrofitted with pipe flange that I can attach several lengths of
>> pipe to.
>>
>> I also have a couple of Cisco Bridges that can output at 100mW, and run
>from
>> batteries so power will not be an issue.
>>
>> cable is not a problem, I use 20' sections for the surveys.
>>
>> I also have a 12dBi Omni that can be used, and some other sundry antenna.
>>
>> Would be a great excuse to break out the Spectrum Analyzer to get some
>> signal strength measurements, and see if there are any offending signals
>to
>> contend with.
>>
>> Let me know if you are interested.
>>
>> chandler heath
>>
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>
>_______________________________________________
>Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
>Minnesota
>http://www.tcwug.org
>tcwug-list@tcwug.org
>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
>service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
>around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com
>________________________________________________________________________
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>This email has been scanned for all viruses by the MessageLabs SkyScan
>service. For more information on a proactive anti-virus service working
>around the clock, around the globe, visit http://www.messagelabs.com
>________________________________________________________________________
>_______________________________________________
>Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>http://www.tcwug.org
>tcwug-list@tcwug.org
>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

-- 
                	--*--SpencerUnderground--*--
http://autonomous.tv/			       spencer@autonomous.tv
Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2  68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754

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From ben at nerp.net  Thu Aug 22 21:54:25 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <3D657CD4.A827D00E@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208222140390.15030-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

i'm going to try and plot anything I can.  so i want to try and get as
many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can.
GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is
good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information.

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Neal wrote:

>
> Are you going to plot along radials, at specific points, or at random? What of
> other points of elevation?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
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From andyw at pobox.com  Thu Aug 22 22:30:24 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208222140390.15030-100000@chef.nerp.net>; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 09:42:25PM -0500
References: <3D657CD4.A827D00E@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208222140390.15030-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <20020822221726.C4182@florence.linkmargin.com>

Ben Kochie wrote:
> i'm going to try and plot anything I can.  so i want to try and get as
> many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can.
> GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is
> good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information.

Since I missed the last meeting where the role of Moos tower
was discussed, can you give me a brief synopsis of the intended
purpose of the links from there ? Is it direct mobile client
connectivity, or is it ptp links with other static sites, or
is it "we don't really know yet" ?

The sensitivity & power of various mobile setups is going to
be highly variable, which will skew the data gathered. I'd like
to see us do a little more planning about what we're trying to
get out of this, so we can make sure we do the appropriate
engineering.
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From andyw at pobox.com  Thu Aug 22 23:05:42 2002
From: andyw at pobox.com (Andy Warner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>; from ben@nerp.net on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 10:27:41AM -0500
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <20020822131835.A3488@florence.linkmargin.com>

Ben Kochie wrote:
> [...]
> What do people think of Saturday, September 7th, at 2:00pm till maybe 5pm.

Works for me.

> this should give us enough time to setup the access point, and antenna,
> and do a bunch of driving around.

Do we also want people stationed a little further out so that we
can gauge the quality of some decent length links ?

> thigns we would need:
> Cisco AP 350, has 100mw output, which would be good for testing.
> several omni's.. 8db, 12db, 15db.. just to see what kind of propogation we
> get.
> about 50' of coax.
> a tripod to do temporary mounting of the antena.
> a bucket of sand, and a bungee to hold the tripod down :)
> 
> people with ham equipment can communicate with moos on 147.150. W0YC

It sounds like you've got the central site all squared away, already.

I can contribute, the following mobile setup:

	o 19dB dish & light duty tripod mount
	o 13dB panel antenna
	o misc lower gain antennae
	o cables
	o misc client-side configs. I'll try and make sure
	  that I have a Zcomax high power card on hand.
	o gps

I can do the talkback on 147.150 too (N0REN).
-- 
andyw@pobox.com

Andy Warner		Voice: (612) 801-8549	Fax: (208) 575-5634

From dieman at ringworld.org  Thu Aug 22 23:38:04 2002
From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208221022530.16158-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <1030076506.3702.52.camel@runabout>

I can come out and help in any way needed.  (Data recording, helping
someone by driving them around, etc.)  I've only got a GMRS license
(need to do the ham thing someday, I know) so I'm only really helpful to
others on GMRS if any. ;)

-- 
Scott Dier <dieman@ringworld.org> http://www.ringworld.org/


From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Thu Aug 22 23:40:09 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208222140390.15030-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <3D65BA6D.F6402793@nkras.dsl.visi.com>


Ben Kochie wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> i'm going to try and plot anything I can.  so i want to try and get as
> many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can.
> GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is
> good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information.

If you're not going with topo maps, then try to gather data at intersections and
landmarks, noting signal strength. That way, a map of signal strength can be made
that will give a good visual indication of what users can expect.


From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 23 00:27:49 2002
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <20020823023410.GH1416@tcopensys.com>
Message-ID: <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> Behalf Of SpencerUnderground

> I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter.  It has an 'N'
> connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy.

Is that frequency range a misprint?

A counter usually isn't sensitive enough or selective enough to be helpful
in field strength measurements.

Anybody got design equations for do-it-yourself yagis, collinears, and
patches at 2.4GHz and/or 1.9GHz ?
I have enough on Pringles cans.

Anybody got a way to measure signal strength in the 1900 MHz cell phone
band?


Chuck



From ben at nerp.net  Fri Aug 23 10:00:19 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <3D65BA6D.F6402793@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208230935410.5726-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

right, one of my ideas is to take a low power telescope, or binoculars
with a tripod mount up there, and be able to spot distance locations,
landmarks that we can see, and have people drive to those locations and
get readings with directional antennas.

for whoever asked, moos tower is going to be a distance point, not local
client access.  it's too tall for local clients, who may not even be able
to see it from the ground.

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Thu, 22 Aug 2002, Neal wrote:

>
>
> Ben Kochie wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > i'm going to try and plot anything I can.  so i want to try and get as
> > many vehicles out there to do whatever kind of testing they can.
> > GPS stuff would help, but simply writing down streets or locations is
> > good.. signal strength readings, anything that would be good information.
>
> If you're not going with topo maps, then try to gather data at intersections and
> landmarks, noting signal strength. That way, a map of signal strength can be made
> that will give a good visual indication of what users can expect.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
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From chrome at real-time.com  Fri Aug 23 10:50:28 2002
From: chrome at real-time.com (Carl Wilhelm Soderstrom)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless setup in a small/midsize office
In-Reply-To: <000501c24a32$a0e6dda0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>; from joel@helgeson.com on Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 06:21:21PM -0500
References: <20020822131900.C11161@real-time.com> <000501c24a32$a0e6dda0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>
Message-ID: <20020823103817.A23863@real-time.com>

On Thu, Aug 22, 2002 at 06:21:21PM -0500, the estimable Mr. Helgeson wrote:
> <reply>
> If they said it was a firewall, then people will think it is a firewall
> and want to have it filter their internet connection. That's not what it
> does.  If they said it was a VPN concentrator, then the morons of the
> world will try and terminate their remote users on AOL on the thing,
> it's not that either. It is an appliance that uses several technologies.

the problem with that logic is that we've gone from a situation where some
people understand what it is and how it could be used, to a situation where
*no-one* understands what it is. (at least not without spending 10 minutes
on their site).
	if you hadn't recommended it, and given a brief description of what
it could be used for, I never would have looked past the first page of their
site because it would have looked like a complete waste of time.

> IMHO, to use the words you have will only serve to confuse people into
> thinking they can buy this thing and use it in place of their
> WatchGuard.

I would posit that those people are confused/ignorant in the first place,
and in trouble no matter what they do. if you rely on marketing people to
tell you how to build your network, you shouldn't be building networks.

Carl Soderstrom.
-- 
Systems Administrator
Real-Time Enterprises
www.real-time.com

From poptix at techmonkeys.org  Fri Aug 23 12:02:46 2002
From: poptix at techmonkeys.org (Matthew S. Hallacy)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:34 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208230935410.5726-100000@chef.nerp.net>; from ben@nerp.net on Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 09:38:01AM -0500
References: <3D65BA6D.F6402793@nkras.dsl.visi.com> <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208230935410.5726-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <20020823114859.C15528@techmonkeys.org>

On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 09:38:01AM -0500, Ben Kochie wrote:
> right, one of my ideas is to take a low power telescope, or binoculars
> with a tripod mount up there, and be able to spot distance locations,
> landmarks that we can see, and have people drive to those locations and
> get readings with directional antennas.

Yay, I can just stay at home and try =p

> -ben

-- 
Matthew S. Hallacy                            FUBAR, LART, BOFH Certified
http://www.poptix.net                           GPG public key 0x01938203

From erik at andersonfam.org  Fri Aug 23 13:15:50 2002
From: erik at andersonfam.org (Erik V. Anderson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)
Message-ID: <1030126286.3d667aced2f62@webmail.andersonfam.org>

I Sent this to the list at 8:34 or so this morning, but it seems to have gotten 
dropped...

After lurking on this list for a few months, I'm finally going to venture into 
the world of wireless myself.  I'm going to grab one of the D-Link 614 AP's at 
Best Buy.  I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA card, as I've had 
several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a place that sells them 
around the cities...any ideas? 

Also, I am going to try and build a wireless->wired bridge using an old laptop 
that I have, probably using redhat 7.3.  Has anyone had success with this?  In 
the past, I've used gShield for firewalling-type stuff, but would this product 
be applicable for a bridge? 

Thanks! 
-Erik Anderson 


-- 
Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org

From cncole at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 23 14:05:07 2002
From: cncole at earthlink.net (Chuck Cole)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)
In-Reply-To: <1030126286.3d667aced2f62@webmail.andersonfam.org>
Message-ID: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson

>   I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA 
> card, as I've had 
> several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a 
> place that sells them 
> around the cities...any ideas? 

Why pay tax?  They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very low.

 


From erik at andersonfam.org  Fri Aug 23 14:22:49 2002
From: erik at andersonfam.org (Erik V. Anderson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)
In-Reply-To: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT>
References: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT>
Message-ID: <1030129689.3d668819aee30@webmail.andersonfam.org>

Yeah I've thought about that...but I'd like to start playing this weekend...I 
guess I'm just impatient/excited/etc.  The ability to get a card *now* is more 
important that price to me I guess...

Thanks for the idea, though!

-Erik

Quoting Chuck Cole <cncole@earthlink.net>:

> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> > Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson
> 
> >   I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA 
> > card, as I've had 
> > several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a 
> > place that sells them 
> > around the cities...any ideas? 
> 
> Why pay tax?  They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very low.
> 
>  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
> Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> 


-- 
Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org

From dieman at ringworld.org  Fri Aug 23 23:35:06 2002
From: dieman at ringworld.org (Scott Dier)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Re: Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208230935410.5726-100000@chef.nerp.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208230935410.5726-100000@chef.nerp.net>
Message-ID: <1030116617.11354.17.camel@runabout>

I still want to try and 'see it' from the ground with my laptop and a
unmodified card. :P  Most likely not, but its fun :)

-- 
Scott Dier <dieman@ringworld.org> http://www.ringworld.org/


From erik at andersonfam.org  Sat Aug 24 01:54:42 2002
From: erik at andersonfam.org (Erik V. Anderson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge
Message-ID: <1030112234.3d6643ea79de4@webmail.andersonfam.org>

After lurking on this list for a few months, I'm finally going to venture into 
the world of wireless myself.  I'm going to grab one of the D-Link 614 AP's at 
Best Buy.  I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA card, as I've had 
several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a place that sells them 
around the cities...any ideas?

Also, I am going to try and build a wireless->wired bridge using an old laptop 
that I have, probably using redhat 7.3.  Has anyone had success with this?  In 
the past, I've used gShield for firewalling-type stuff, but would this product 
be applicable for a bridge?

Thanks!
-Erik Anderson

-- 
Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org

From ben at nerp.net  Sat Aug 24 02:34:43 2002
From: ben at nerp.net (Ben Kochie)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208230942530.5726-100000@chef.nerp.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

just so you know, pringles cans are not really useable for wireless, their
diameter is too small.

this web page has a decent little web calculator to help you determin the
effectiveness of a can-style waveguide antenna.
http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/cantennahowto.html

anything with a diameter under 6.1cm will be too small.  and the site
recommends a 7.2cm diameter.

- -ben

 "Unix is user friendly, Its just picky about its friends."

On Fri, 23 Aug 2002, Chuck Cole wrote:

>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> > Behalf Of SpencerUnderground
>
> > I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter.  It has an 'N'
> > connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy.
>
> Is that frequency range a misprint?
>
> A counter usually isn't sensitive enough or selective enough to be helpful
> in field strength measurements.
>
> Anybody got design equations for do-it-yourself yagis, collinears, and
> patches at 2.4GHz and/or 1.9GHz ?
> I have enough on Pringles cans.
>
> Anybody got a way to measure signal strength in the 1900 MHz cell phone
> band?
>
>
> Chuck
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
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Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

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=cwRM
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From spencer at autonomous.tv  Sat Aug 24 04:03:32 2002
From: spencer at autonomous.tv (spencer@autonomous.tv)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT>
References: <20020823023410.GH1416@tcopensys.com> <003501c24a62$f59183c0$6401a8c0@HPZT>
Message-ID: <20020823154259.GA7867@tcopensys.com>

On Fri, Aug 23, 2002 at 12:07:16AM -0500, Chuck Cole wrote:
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
>> Behalf Of SpencerUnderground
>
>> I have a 1mhz-3mhz/50ohm frequency counter.  It has an 'N'
>> connector on it. I suspect this might come in handy.
>
>Is that frequency range a misprint?
ooops. yes it is a misprint. 1mhz-3ghz (Elenco F-2800)
but whatever.
>
>A counter usually isn't sensitive enough or selective enough to be helpful
>in field strength measurements.
>
>Anybody got design equations for do-it-yourself yagis, collinears, and
>patches at 2.4GHz and/or 1.9GHz ?
>I have enough on Pringles cans.
>
>Anybody got a way to measure signal strength in the 1900 MHz cell phone
>band?
>
>
>Chuck
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota
>http://www.tcwug.org
>tcwug-list@tcwug.org
>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

-- 
                	--*--SpencerUnderground--*--
http://autonomous.tv/			       spencer@autonomous.tv
Key fingerprint = 173B 8760 E59F DBF8 6FD2  68F8 ABA2 AB08 49C7 4754


From nryberg at mendota-bridge.com  Sat Aug 24 12:58:29 2002
From: nryberg at mendota-bridge.com (Nick Ryberg)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)
References: <006b01c24ad6$89ec59a0$6401a8c0@HPZT> <1030129689.3d668819aee30@webmail.andersonfam.org>
Message-ID: <001401c24aee$8af48df0$3e0c0a0a@roosevelt>

Erik -

This may or may not be obvious, but my personal favorite computer shop would
be Microcenter in St. Louis Park, off Hwy 100.

I don't know if they carry Lucent, but they are about the best major
commercial computer parts supplier in the Twin Cities.  Broader variety than
either Best Buy or Compusa and none of the usual attendant hype or
annoying/stupid sales clerks.

BTW - I don't have any affiliation with them - just like their attitude and
depth of product lines.

Check out http://www.microcenter.com for locations, etc...

- Nick Ryberg


----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik V. Anderson" <erik@andersonfam.org>
To: <tcwug-list@tcwug.org>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 2:08 PM
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)


> Yeah I've thought about that...but I'd like to start playing this
weekend...I
> guess I'm just impatient/excited/etc.  The ability to get a card *now* is
more
> important that price to me I guess...
>
> Thanks for the idea, though!
>
> -Erik
>
> Quoting Chuck Cole <cncole@earthlink.net>:
>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> > > Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson
> >
> > >   I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA
> > > card, as I've had
> > > several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a
> > > place that sells them
> > > around the cities...any ideas?
> >
> > Why pay tax?  They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very low.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
> > Minnesota
> > http://www.tcwug.org
> > tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From dave at davedash.com  Sat Aug 24 13:55:17 2002
From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range?
Message-ID: <4EF21786-B792-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com>

does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's 
aironet products?  I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff 
for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the 
antennas?

Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff?
--
Spindrop Technologies
http://www.spindroptech.com/


From bryan at edgar.sector14.net  Sat Aug 24 14:01:32 2002
From: bryan at edgar.sector14.net (Bryan Halvorson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Moos tower survey
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.33.0208230942530.5726-100000@chef.nerp.net> from "Ben Kochie" at Aug 23, 2002 09:58:08 AM
Message-ID: <200208241806.g7OI6a803640@twenty.sector14.net>

Ben Kochie wrote:
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> just so you know, pringles cans are not really useable for wireless, their
> diameter is too small.
> 
> this web page has a decent little web calculator to help you determin the
> effectiveness of a can-style waveguide antenna.
> http://www.turnpoint.net/wireless/cantennahowto.html
> 
> anything with a diameter under 6.1cm will be too small.  and the site
> recommends a 7.2cm diameter.

Some of the numbers that the calculator come up with don't seem quite
right. The one that jumped out at me was the 1/4 Guide Wavelength. It
recommends placing the center of the connector and thus the antenna 
around 2.5 inches from the back of the can. The figures I've always 
seen used are just under half of that.

For 2.15 gig HBO receivers we used 1.2 inches for both the antenna 
length and the distance from the back of the can with 4 inch diameter 
cans. For 2.4 gig I'd start with figures about 13% shorter. The ones we 
made for 2.15 gig work fairly well unmodified but did work better after 
shortening the dipole by about an eighth if an inch.


-- 
Bryan Halvorson
bryan@edgar.sector14.net

From tanner at real-time.com  Sat Aug 24 18:04:59 2002
From: tanner at real-time.com (Bob Tanner)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range?
In-Reply-To: <4EF21786-B792-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com>; from dave@davedash.com on Sat, Aug 24, 2002 at 01:50:07PM -0500
References: <4EF21786-B792-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com>
Message-ID: <20020824173843.T2123@real-time.com>

Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com):
> does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's 
> aironet products?  I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff 
> for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the 
> antennas?
> 
> Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff?

What's in between?

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner@real-time.com>         | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
http://www.tcwug.org, Minnesota, Wireless | Coding isn't a crime. 
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288

From dave at davedash.com  Sat Aug 24 23:01:45 2002
From: dave at davedash.com (dave@davedash.com)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: Fwd: [TCWUG] aironet range?
Message-ID: <785DD362-B7CE-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com>

It'll be in a cafeteria. The most that'll be in the way is a pillar or 
two

I was thinking of using an aironet 1200 because it looks so 
unobtrusive.  I am willing to opt for other less expensive equipment and 
just add antennas.

Thanks:)
dd


On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 05:38  PM, Bob Tanner wrote:

> Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com):
>> does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's
>> aironet products?  I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff
>> for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the
>> antennas?
>>
>> Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff?
>
> What's in between?
>


From joel at helgeson.com  Sat Aug 24 23:04:04 2002
From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range?
In-Reply-To: <20020824173843.T2123@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <000001c24bdc$5caf0ee0$027dd8d8@SECURITY>

Are we talking wireless LAN or Wireless Bridge?  For wireless LAN it can
vary greatly depending on the type of building it's in.  I could only
give you estimates of 300ft indoors.  For wireless bridge, you can get
links up to 25 miles (Distances greater than 25 miles are difficult to
align, but are possible).

As far as a good source, I am the Director of Networking & Security
Services at SymetriQ.  We are a Cisco Partner & Reseller.  I have
offered to sell Cisco gear at a cost for hobbyists that will be using it
for personal use. If this is for business use, there is only a 5% markup
and no limits on quantities. If you're interested, just drop me a line.

> for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the 
> antennas?


Without antennas, your signal isn't going very far (you'd be lucky to
get a signal 3 feet away)...

Regards,

Joel R. Helgeson

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On
Behalf Of Bob Tanner
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 5:39 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] aironet range?
Importance: High

Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com):
> does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's 
> aironet products?  I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff 
> for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the 
> antennas?
> 
> Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff?

What's in between?

-- 
Bob Tanner <tanner@real-time.com>         | Phone : (952)943-8700
http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
http://www.tcwug.org, Minnesota, Wireless | Coding isn't a crime. 
Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From joel at helgeson.com  Sun Aug 25 17:38:23 2002
From: joel at helgeson.com (Joel R. Helgeson)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range?
In-Reply-To: <A9E9202C-B7E5-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com>
Message-ID: <001501c24c7e$8cae0400$027dd8d8@SECURITY>

The 1200 offers you multiple options for powering it. You have the
option of powering it over Ethernet (power injector sold separately) or
by using the inline power module on your Catalyst 4k or 6500 switch. The
Aironet 1200 comes with a power supply so you can plug it into the wall,
just as you would the Aironet 340.

The Aironet 340 peaks at 30mw transmit power; the 350 jumped up to 100mw
and was powered by inline Ethernet only (no option for a wall adapter).
The 1200 comes default with an 802.11b radio, gives you a choice between
wall or inline power and it transmits up to 100mw. It also has a slot
for installing an 802.11a radio when it becomes available.

The 802.11a radio comes with its own antenna attached. The FCC requires
that 802.11a must come with non-removable antennas.  The antenna on the
.11a radio for the 1200 operates as both an omni-directional and
directional depending on the positioning of the antenna. When placed in
the vertical position (90 deg. to the radio) it operates as an omni,
when folded flat against the AP, it operates as a patch antenna with a
60 degree beamwidth.
 
***Very important note: If you are using a Catalyst Switch to provide
inline power, it only provides enough power to support one (1) radio. In
other words, it will only power the 802.11b radio. If you upgrade the
Aironet 1200 to have both the 802.11b & 802.11a radio, the catalyst
switch can not provide enough current to support both radios. You *MUST*
use the inline power adapter or use the wall adapter.

If this unit is going to be installed in a cafeteria (a large open
space) I would recommend using the default "Rubber Duck"
omni-directional antenna.  Those antennae run about $15-$20.  Keep in
mind that the 1200 does not ship with *any* antennas.

Joel

-----Original Message-----
From: Devesh Dash [mailto:dd@davedash.com] 
Sent: Saturday, August 24, 2002 11:47 PM
To: joel@helgeson.com
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] aironet range?

Oh cool, I didn't know that SymetriQ also sells stuff.

I've been a little confused about the product, does the aironet AP come 
with a radio card for 802.11b?  Does it come with any antennas?

What type of antenna do you recommend for an indoor use?

Outside of looks, what does the 1200 offer over the 350 or 340 or other 
brands of APs?  I remember you mentioning in your talk that you 
preferred the equipment - and the 1200 has the "futureproofing" which I 
think is awesome.  I've skimmed over some of the docs on the site - but 
since I know you've done a lot with these, you could give me a better 
idea :)

Thanks a lot.




On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 09:08  PM, Joel R. Helgeson wrote:

> As far as a good source, I am the Director of Networking & Security
> Services at SymetriQ.  We are a Cisco Partner & Reseller.  I have
> offered to sell Cisco gear at a cost for hobbyists that will be using
it
> for personal use. If this is for business use, there is only a 5%
markup
> and no limits on quantities. If you're interested, just drop me a
line.
>
--
Spindrop Technologies
http://www.spindroptech.com/



From dd at davedash.com  Sun Aug 25 18:55:10 2002
From: dd at davedash.com (Devesh Dash)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] aironet range?
In-Reply-To: <20020824173843.T2123@real-time.com>
Message-ID: <6C83A06C-B7CD-11D6-8345-00039397F470@davedash.com>

It'll be in a cafeteria. The most that'll be in the way is a pillar or 
two

I was thinking of using an aironet 1200 because it looks so 
unobtrusive.  I am willing to opt for other less expensive equipment and 
just add antennas.

Thanks:)
dd


On Saturday, August 24, 2002, at 05:38  PM, Bob Tanner wrote:

> Quoting dave@davedash.com (dave@davedash.com):
>> does anybody have a good idea of what the range is like on cisco's
>> aironet products?  I'm thinking I know you can get antennas and stuff
>> for them, but they are expensive, what's the range like without the
>> antennas?
>>
>> Does anybody know a good place to get aironet stuff?
>
> What's in between?
>
> --
> Bob Tanner <tanner@real-time.com>         | Phone : (952)943-8700
> http://www.mn-linux.org, Minnesota, Linux | Fax   : (952)943-8500
> http://www.tcwug.org, Minnesota, Wireless | Coding isn't a crime.
> Key fingerprint = AB15 0BDF BCDE 4369 5B42  1973 7CF1 A709 2CC1 B288
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, 
> Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>
>
--
Spindrop Technologies
http://www.spindroptech.com/


From bneigebauer at attbi.com  Sun Aug 25 22:43:04 2002
From: bneigebauer at attbi.com (BN)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)
In-Reply-To: <001401c24aee$8af48df0$3e0c0a0a@roosevelt>
Message-ID: <002e01c24cb0$ece3eab0$6462a8c0@slick>

I have the exact combination of Dlink 614+ and Orinoco Gold. For the
most part I have been please with both. I am a little disappointed in
the configurability of the access point router. 

I wish it had things like limiting of MAC addresses for the Wireless,
and router/gateway setup like the Linksys routers. 

Another feature I would have liked (this is a long shot), but a Wireless
pass through. Basically, I figure it would be nice to turn one of the
switch ports+wireless into an regular AP (Ethernet-wireless bridge).
That way I can funnel the wireless to a linux machine for VPN
termination on to my main network. (IPSEC over wireless)

-----Original Message-----
From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org [mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org] On
Behalf Of Nick Ryberg
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 4:46 PM
To: tcwug-list@tcwug.org
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)

Erik -

This may or may not be obvious, but my personal favorite computer shop
would
be Microcenter in St. Louis Park, off Hwy 100.

I don't know if they carry Lucent, but they are about the best major
commercial computer parts supplier in the Twin Cities.  Broader variety
than
either Best Buy or Compusa and none of the usual attendant hype or
annoying/stupid sales clerks.

BTW - I don't have any affiliation with them - just like their attitude
and
depth of product lines.

Check out http://www.microcenter.com for locations, etc...

- Nick Ryberg


----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik V. Anderson" <erik@andersonfam.org>
To: <tcwug-list@tcwug.org>
Sent: Friday, August 23, 2002 2:08 PM
Subject: RE: [TCWUG] Wireless->Wired Bridge (Resend)


> Yeah I've thought about that...but I'd like to start playing this
weekend...I
> guess I'm just impatient/excited/etc.  The ability to get a card *now*
is
more
> important that price to me I guess...
>
> Thanks for the idea, though!
>
> -Erik
>
> Quoting Chuck Cole <cncole@earthlink.net>:
>
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org
[mailto:tcwug-list-admin@tcwug.org]On
> > > Behalf Of Erik V. Anderson
> >
> > >   I also would like to get an Orinoco Gold PCMCIA
> > > card, as I've had
> > > several people recommend them, but I can't seem to find a
> > > place that sells them
> > > around the cities...any ideas?
> >
> > Why pay tax?  They are common on eBay and sometimes prices are very
low.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St.
Paul,
> > Minnesota
> > http://www.tcwug.org
> > tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> > https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
> >
>
>
> --
> Erik Anderson - erik@andersonfam.org
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list

_______________________________________________
Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
http://www.tcwug.org
tcwug-list@tcwug.org
https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list


From brent at nordist.net  Wed Aug 28 21:09:09 2002
From: brent at nordist.net (Brent J. Nordquist)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:35 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] War Flying
Message-ID: <Pine.OSX.4.44.0208280816330.1352-100000@boswick-e.its.bethel.edu>

http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/3q02/warflying-1.html

-- 
Brent J. Nordquist <brent@nordist.net> N0BJN
Other contact information: http://www.nordist.net/contact.html


From nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com  Thu Aug 29 06:56:20 2002
From: nkras at nkras.dsl.visi.com (Neal)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:36 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] War Flying
References: <Pine.OSX.4.44.0208280816330.1352-100000@boswick-e.its.bethel.edu>
Message-ID: <3D6E0A6A.BA209179@nkras.dsl.visi.com>


"Brent J. Nordquist" wrote:

> http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/3q02/warflying-1.html

So this guy has the money to spend for an afternoon of flying around the city at
2500'. He also proved the characteristics of unobstructed line of sight.

Besides that, what exactly was his point?


From goober at goobe.net  Fri Aug 30 12:10:00 2002
From: goober at goobe.net (Alex Hartman)
Date: Tue Jan 18 11:36:36 2005
Subject: [TCWUG] War Flying
References: <Pine.OSX.4.44.0208280816330.1352-100000@boswick-e.its.bethel.edu> <3D6E0A6A.BA209179@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
Message-ID: <002f01c24ffc$b4b3a460$1e4111c7@jennifer>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Neal" <nkras@nkras.dsl.visi.com>
To: <tcwug-list@tcwug.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [TCWUG] War Flying


>
>
> "Brent J. Nordquist" wrote:
>
> > http://arstechnica.com/wankerdesk/3q02/warflying-1.html
>
> So this guy has the money to spend for an afternoon of flying around the
city at
> 2500'. He also proved the characteristics of unobstructed line of sight.
>
> Besides that, what exactly was his point?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Twin Cities Wireless Users Group Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul,
Minnesota
> http://www.tcwug.org
> tcwug-list@tcwug.org
> https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tcwug-list
>


Geeks with way too much money/free time. Read: boredom.



--
Alex Hartman - goober@goobe.net
PGP Key fingerprint = 26 41 19 56 19 81 E2 BC  EE C8 1D F4 DB B8 ED B8
"All in all is all we all are..." -Kurt Cobain RIP 1967-1994