Thank you Mathew I've been boiling for almost 24 hours I've been trying to come up with a way to explain the the reasons why the elitist attitude has me so worked up and why it's so wrong. My dad owned a bar and grill in Duluth when I was in my teens and college. I stocked the beer coolers starting at 1:30 am after that I cleaned the bar until 4:00 am, 6 days per week (closed Sundays). We lived above the bar, I'd go to bed after 4, get up at 6, be to school at 7:30, get home at 4, do the rest of my home work, have a nap and start all over again. I didn't have much of a social life, my high school sweet heart was from a low income family and understood what it takes to survive, not live well, survive. I learned about the realities of life when my dad hired Lisa as a waitress, who was a single mom. This was her only source of income 6 nights per week. All she wanted to do was to provide for her daughter and herself, she worked very hard and made minimum wage + tips. Her parents wouldn't have anything to do with her or her "bastard" child. About 6 months later Lisa came in for her shift one afternoon, with her daughter of about 2 and a half years, she was in tears. She had no one to take care of her daughter, she didn't know what to do. What would the elitists do for this young single mother at that moment? I know what Kenny and Lois did. Kenny was a truck driver, Lois worked in the commercial laundry down the street. Kenny was raised by the Salvation Army, Lois's parents split up when she was young. They both had grown up poor, and met each other late in life. They were Tuesday and Friday night regulars, burgers, fries, onion rings, and a few beers. They had ordered their burgers but that didn't stop them. They took the baby home and cared for her. My dad had me drive the meal to Kenny and Lois's, Kenny and Lois did not pay for that meal. Both Kenny and Lois showed up at 1:30 am and drove Lisa home. For a while Kenny and Lois had a hard time paying for a beer when they came in. The other customers wouldn't let them, because of what they had done. Kenny and Lois sort of adopted Lisa and her daughter, they helped her get through some tough times. All the customers at the bar sort of adopted Lisa and her daughter at that point. I remember old Jim Spears, (long dead) He lived in a hotel down the street, he had nothing but social security to live on, but he gave her $20 at Christmas. Would the elitists have even considered doing any of this, I think not. BTW, Lisa was raped when she was 17, by 3 middle class high school foot ball players who all went on to college. So much for "she should have thought of the consequences before she had sex" argument. Sam. Matthew C. Dettinger wrote: >I grew up in a family that owned a restaurant. I waited tables most of my >life through high school, college, and during the evenings after my day >job for extra cash. I no longer wait tables in the evening. > >I have no desire to get into a pissing match about levels of income, and >what we do for a living. I believe that to be irrelevant. Except to say I >am bothered by your elitist attitude toward the working class of this >nation. > >The Guthrie lab was running a great play I saw a few weeks ago called >'Nickle and Dimed' I suggest looking into it for glimpse of the majority of >your/our society. --> >http://www.guthrietheater.org/act_I/show_page.cfm?id_show=18030455 > >I grew up watching single mothers wait tables, trying to make ends meet. >These are some of the people who do this job. They are young men and women >without daddy war bucks to pay their college, trying to start off in life >on the right foot. > >You are so brave on the tc-lug mail list. I want you to go to that single >mother waiting tables that didn't finish high school. From the top of your >great horse explain these same ideas to them. Tell them if they don't >like it they should leave. Just don't lean too far or you may fall. > >I don't want this to escalate to nuclear war, but because of my upbringing, >my experiences, I am very passionate about this subject. > >I guess I would like to reiterate my main point. If anyone feels that >tipping %15 is absurd, wrong, unjustified, too generous, and >unnecessary then don't eat at a service establishment. Eat at McDonald's. > > > >mcd > > > > > >On Tue, 23 Sep 2003, Michael Jentges wrote: > > > >>And hence AUTHOR wrote: Matthew C. Dettinger >> >> >>>Servers have for many, many years worked for minimum wage + tip. Society >>> as a whole has generally accepted the notion that when you dine at a >>>service establishment you pay the house for the food, and tip the server >>> for their attention to your needs, ie. service. If an individual wants >>> >>> >>That's a bunch of hoo-haa. "Society?" >> >> >> >>>Like I said... society has generally accepted this concept, but as >>>always there is the fringe with a wild ideology that tries to explain >>>their cheapness away by saying, "I don't get it." >>> >>> >>Wild idealogy? Read my post again. No wonder the best you can do is an >>untipped waiter. >> >> >> >>>It is not too big a deal if someone does not leave a tip. Just realize >>>that the establishment, your friends, and anyone else who sees this >>>thinks of you as being cheap, and nothing more. Regardless of your >>>perception of the event. >>> >>> >>Finally, I never said I DIDN'T TIP. I said I don't understand the whole >>concept. >>Why in this and this industry only is it 'expected' the poor working stiff >>that feels extravagant on payday assist your employer in paying your >>salary? He's already been hit hard by uncle sam, for one thing.... >> >>If you don't like it, get another job. Perhaps be a checkout clerk >>somewhere. I think the salary runs about the same. Let me know how the >>tips are there and what happens when you call the customers derogatory >>names. >> >>-mj >> >> >> >>>mcd >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>>http://www.mn-linux.org tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >>> >>> >>--------------------- >>Jentges.NET, Inc. >>Voice: 763.783.3702 >>Cell: 763.370.1201 >>--------------------- >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >>http://www.mn-linux.org tclug-list at mn-linux.org >>https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list >> >> >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota >http://www.mn-linux.org tclug-list at mn-linux.org >https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list > > > _______________________________________________ TCLUG Mailing List - Minneapolis/St. Paul, Minnesota http://www.mn-linux.org tclug-list at mn-linux.org https://mailman.real-time.com/mailman/listinfo/tclug-list